Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea Evidence - Thursday 5th May 2022 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:26 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing uh today we're going to hear from the former Town Clerk of Kensington and Chelsea Mr Holgate yes yes Mr V yes

00:00:37 and Chelsea Mr Holgate yes yes Mr V yes Mr chairman good morning good morning members of the panel I now call Mr Nicholas Holgate please thank

00:00:50 you good morning Mr Holgate I understand you're going to take the oath yes there should be a testament there you've got it good could you hold in your right hand and read the words on the screen please

00:01:00 please I swear by almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much and please sit down and make yourself

00:01:16 comfortable right yes Mr a minute yes um Mr Holgate first of all good morning to you morning and can I start by thanking you very much for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations

00:01:27 and assisting us with our investigations we're very grateful to you during the course of your evidence idence a number of things first uh if I ask a question that you can't hear or don't understand or want me to rephrase I can do that

00:01:38 or want me to rephrase I can do that second could I please ask you to keep your voice up so that the person who sits to your immediate right uh and is typing can get down your evidence clearly don't say don't nod or shake your head you have to say uh yes or no

00:01:50 your head you have to say uh yes or no as the case may be we'll take breaks during the course of the morning and the afternoon but if you need a break at any other time we can take a break all right now um you've made a number of

00:02:02 now um you've made a number of statements to the inquiry two of which relate to the aftermath of the fire uh and everything that we're going to be examining together will appear on the screen on your desk in front of you um can I show you first two two statements

00:02:16 can I show you first two two statements um you've um given us your first aftermath witness statement to the inquiry at rbk30 35

00:02:24 426 that's date of the 27th of September at the foot of it at page 10 if we can go there please and there's a signature is that your signature it is thank you and the second aftermath statement is at

00:02:37 and the second aftermath statement is at rbk33 63

00:02:40 rbk33 63 176 that's date of the 21st of January 2021 and if we could uh go please to uh page seven you could see a signature there yes yes can you please confirm

00:02:52 there yes yes can you please confirm that's your signature well have you read both of these statements recently I have and can you confirm please that their contents are true uh I think there is one error in the first statement which is that um recently I think while

00:03:05 is that um recently I think while looking at other material I gathered that there was actually a form in the contingency plan for invoking London Gold and I think in my first statement I say that as it were a conversation is

00:03:17 say that as it were a conversation is enough um so I think I got that wrong right now let's turn to your background of qualifications and look at your first aftermath statement and let's take this as quickly as we can uh page two par six

00:03:30 as quickly as we can uh page two par six where you touch briefly on your work experience uh and summarizing it is it right that you worked in central government first employed by hm treasury in 1984 as a management accountant and you held that role for some 20 years uh

00:03:43 you held that role for some 20 years uh I held a number of roles within the so service for I think 24 years y 24 years right um and from 2004 to 2008 you held the role of Chief Operating Officer

00:03:54 the role of Chief Operating Officer sorry I was embracing the two yeah right fine but 2004 to 2008 uh you held the role of Chief Operating Officer at the department for culture media and Sport I think didn't correct

00:04:06 media and Sport I think didn't correct yes and in 2008 you joined rbkc as executive director for finance information systems and property that's that's paragraph six yes yes and then in

00:04:17 that's paragraph six yes yes and then in 2013 you you became the interim chief executive alongside your road as Finance director is that right yes and then in December 2014 that position became permanent and you became known as the

00:04:29 permanent and you became known as the town clerk yes yes uh and that was that linked together with your role as Finance director uh it was until uh April

00:04:40 2017 now paragraph five of your statement on page Sor that I don't know who's got some there's a noise um something broadcasting

00:04:52 a noise um something broadcasting on anyway about that can we all make sure we've got our phones and anything that might make a noise Switched Off please thank you very much yes on you go Mr thank you page two paragraph uh page one paragraph 5 and

00:05:04 paragraph uh page one paragraph 5 and then over to to the page on page two you set out the role that you occupied as Town Clark and just taking that as uh in summary it's right I think that you were responsible for the overall stewardship

00:05:16 responsible for the overall stewardship and good governance of the burough to ensure the high quality of services yes correct and that included the management of senior staff correct and I think you were you were responsible to that is

00:05:27 were you were responsible to that is answerable to the leader of the council who was at that stage Nicholas padet Brown that's right and also say his cabinet yes that's right did you report to him directly I did right and in

00:05:38 to him directly I did right and in addition to the town Clark role it's right I think that from December 2014 you also continued to hold the role of Finance director as you say until April 2017 um what happened to that role in April 2017 uh it was awarded to Kevin

00:05:51 April 2017 uh it was awarded to Kevin Bartle who had been working at the council for a little while before then I see and did you have a Handover with him uh well he had been been performing many of the duties and had been a finance

00:06:03 of the duties and had been a finance director at I think at least one other London burough so he was well appraised of the duties right and as you tell us later in your statement at paragraph 51 on page 10 you uh resigned your role as

00:06:15 on page 10 you uh resigned your role as Town Clark on the 21st of June 2017 correct yes so s days after the fire correct uh and therefore you would hold

00:06:26 correct uh and therefore you would hold is this right the sole position of town Clark or that is to say Town Clark only for some 3 months uh yes

00:06:39 yes did you find that having the Dual role of town Clark and finance director up till April 2017 adversely affected your ability in any way to establish yourself as and to carry out your role

00:06:51 yourself as and to carry out your role as town clerk uh I did not think that it did um but of course I could be wrong about that now for the purposes of the Civil contingencies framework to which I

00:07:02 Civil contingencies framework to which I wish to turn now is it right that first a local Authority is a category one responder yes and you understood that at the time yes yes um and in simple terms did you understand that category one responders of those organizations at the

00:07:14 responders of those organizations at the core of emergency service service response which would include the Emergency Services local authorities and NHS bodies yes yes uh and as such

00:07:25 NHS bodies yes yes uh and as such category one responders have a number of legal duties and responsibilities including maintaining plans to ensure the ability to perform their functions in an emergency yes yes now we've heard that the contingency management plan for

00:07:37 that the contingency management plan for rbkc was drafted by and as it were owned by David Kerry the RBC rbkc contingency planning manager yes yes uh and you understood that the current version at

00:07:49 understood that the current version at the time of the grandell tower file was the one dated 30th of April 2015 yes uh I wouldn't know off the top of my head which was the current version right but they did Bear close resemblances to one

00:08:02 they did Bear close resemblances to one another right and do you agree that that was an important document which set out how rbkc should respond in the event of an emergency to which it applied I do agree yes now looking at your own role in an emergency paragraph eight of your

00:08:14 in an emergency paragraph eight of your first statement um if we if we go sorry paragraph eight of your first statement if we go to page two let's just pick that up um you you tell us that as Town

00:08:25 that up um you you tell us that as Town Clark uh you you would be B gold as part of the council's contingency management plan that's correct and that's also known as Council gold yes you we've seen

00:08:37 known as Council gold yes you we've seen references to it as Council gold and you understood that expression indeed now if we go to the contingency management plan itself we find that at rbk30 28631 let's look at the first page there

00:08:49 28631 let's look at the first page there it is 30th of April 2015 just looking at the first page of this and it's a giant document with lots of bits but was this a document with which you were familiar I was familiar I had a copy of certainly

00:09:02 I was familiar I had a copy of certainly the main part of it at home uh I reread it each time a new issue I was conscious of a new

00:09:12 issue you say you had a copy of it the main part at home so was was a hard copy on your indeed and a hard copy and in the office of course

00:09:22 right uh and if you go to page 39 in the document please we can see the part um we can see part 5.2 roles and responsibilities summary and the

00:09:34 responsibilities summary and the functions of council gold are there set out you can see them in the first yes uh well certainly in the first box and there are four bullet points there determine the council's Strategic course of action Le the Strategic coordinating

00:09:46 of action Le the Strategic coordinating group liaison with leader and other members attend or be represented at multi- agency strategic coordinating group me uh meetings now at the time of the fire did you understand those to be your responsibilities as Council gold

00:10:00 your responsibilities as Council gold yes you did let's then turn to the next topic training and capacity is it the position that before the events of the 14th of June 2017 you had no experience

00:10:11 14th of June 2017 you had no experience yourself of of acting as Council gold in a major emergency that's true uh and I think you tell us that at paragraph 14 on page three um were you aware at that time that in relation to emergency or

00:10:23 time that in relation to emergency or contingency plans rbkc as a category one responder was under a regulatory Duty to carry out training and exercises for the purposes of ensuring that those plans

00:10:34 purposes of ensuring that those plans were effective uh I'm not sure that I would have known that it was a regulatory duty but I would certainly have accepted that it was very good and recommended practice to do so right dealing with your own training

00:10:47 so right dealing with your own training then first and as at June 2017

00:10:53 2017 uh what would you say how would you assess or describe the sufficiency of training that you had undertaken to act as Council gold in the event of an emergency was it sufficient or was it

00:11:04 emergency was it sufficient or was it insufficient um well I would say um it was insufficient uh with the benefit of hindsight plainly insufficient um I can explain what I had

00:11:15 insufficient um I can explain what I had done but I think the direct answer to your question is that it was plainly insufficient now let's just look at what you had done I think in the opening statement put in by rbkc to this module of this

00:11:25 of this inquiry uh the council says that you had received some training but acknowledge that quotes it was not of itself sufficient for the role of council goals and I think you have agreed with that uh

00:11:38 and I think you have agreed with that uh uh uh but it doesn't represent the totality of the training that you had received uh let's um perhaps we could take this more shortly what could you tell us what training you did you had received

00:11:50 training you did you had received yourself to act as Council gold certainly um so uh there is a very modest induction process C that uh my

00:12:01 modest induction process C that uh my understanding was that all London burough Chief Executives or nearly all of them went through um as part of being on a rotor to be London Gold should

00:12:12 on a rotor to be London Gold should there be a call for a London Gold operation uh and that would only have been a few hours at most it essentially involved a visit to a facility uh which

00:12:24 involved a visit to a facility uh which might have hosted a London wide operation were once we needed and were there to be a local Authority chief executive in a gold role um in addition

00:12:35 executive in a gold role um in addition to that as you know we did have a practice uh in 2015 um I attended as an observer one day of the unified

00:12:46 day of the unified response um exercise which was I think quite an impressive London wide attempt to rehearse for a major um uh a major

00:13:00 to rehearse for a major um uh a major disaster and um it is just worth recalling that uh in terms of large disasters I think the one that animated

00:13:11 disasters I think the one that animated uh colleagues and I most over that period was the risk of terrorism so uh I think the B Clan massacre in Paris had been the previous year and the most

00:13:22 been the previous year and the most cohesive thing I had attended before the fire was a conference on lessons to to be learned from uh that terrible series of events and indeed if you looked

00:13:35 of events and indeed if you looked through um my mail box with a fine enough toothcomb you would find a couple of things that I was pursuing coming out of that uh conference and can you can you remember

00:13:47 conference and can you can you remember what those things were I can but to be brutally honest I'd rather not talk about them um because I don't know whether the council completed one or both and one of them would be about

00:13:58 both and one of them would be about preventing a tragedy uh another one would have been about mitigating it in the in the context of terrorism yes I see so so you alluding to a potential national security issue um yes it would

00:14:10 national security issue um yes it would have been a national issue if if if such a thing had occurred that I was doing work in a very small way to try and make less likely I follow well we may come back to the detail of what you've just

00:14:22 back to the detail of what you've just told us in a moment sure before we do um let let me just examine Mr Ker's EV uh evidence about training we heard from him uh in his statement that before June

00:14:34 him uh in his statement that before June 2017 the date of the most recent gold Group Training on strategic command control and Recovery was the 14th of September 2015 so some 20 months 21 months before the fire is that right I

00:14:46 months before the fire is that right I think that is right and there was that was a two-hour tabletop discussion or desktop exercise yes correct and in relation to the duration duration of that training Mr Kerry's evidence was that it wasn't sufficient he'd asked for

00:14:58 that it wasn't sufficient he'd asked for a four 4 Hour slot this is at day 268 page 78 lines 2 to8 and then he says um at first told he couldn't do it uh no need to do it and he was given two hours

00:15:11 need to do it and he was given two hours and then he told us that at the end of the session as he left you told him next time you need longer you recall that well I don't recall it but it may save um time to say that I cannot offhand

00:15:24 um time to say that I cannot offhand think of anything that any of the rbkc witnesses have said to you over the last few days with which I would take any issue at all so if David kery said that then I said it um the gloss I would put

00:15:37 then I said it um the gloss I would put on it is that I was not sure what value this sort of exercise would be but after two hours I was persuaded that such training was worthwhile thank you that's

00:15:48 training was worthwhile thank you that's very helpful now just just to be clear in light of that last answer can can we be confident that you have followed the rbkc witness's evidence I followed uh anything that has any reference to me in

00:16:00 anything that has any reference to me in it uh right okay um then I think I understand the parameters of your of your answer um was it the position that Senior

00:16:11 um was it the position that Senior Management were not prepared to make the time available and commit to contingency Management training or that was there some other problem um I think that you're right to say that there was sometimes resistance to setting aside

00:16:25 sometimes resistance to setting aside significant time for such training I think it is worth pointing out and I'll try to do this only once but it's a very important background fact that from 2010

00:16:37 important background fact that from 2010 onwards there were very large reductions in the recurrent funding of local authorities um from my other statement uh I think the figure for the burrow by

00:16:49 uh I think the figure for the burrow by the time of 2017 was of the order of 28% and despite such a reduction it was our very uh great deter determination to

00:17:00 our very uh great deter determination to keep all the normal Services of the borough going as well as possible if not actually to improve upon their quality because that was the demand the the rightful demand both of residents and of

00:17:13 rightful demand both of residents and of counselors so I was not completely unsympathetic to you know I I understood the pressures that senior managers across the council were

00:17:25 across the council were under to what extent in light of that answer was there consideration given to how to um comply with the fixed

00:17:36 how to um comply with the fixed statutory obligations under the Civil contingencies act and its regulations and the statutory guidance on the oneand whilst um allowing for these budget exigencies on

00:17:50 allowing for these budget exigencies on the

00:17:51 the other um I can't remember um an explicit discussion of the the um tension between those two things was do you remember and

00:18:02 those two things was do you remember and this is a more general question do you remember any discussion at London wide level um within the lrp um or the lrf or other bodies sitting within

00:18:16 lrf or other bodies sitting within the the London or pan London resilience structure about whether some buroughs were doing better than others uh in relation to being able to fund their civil contingencies obligations um I

00:18:29 civil contingencies obligations um I don't recall being party to any such discussion in those fora um I do not think in the case of the royal burrow funding was uh an insurmountable issue

00:18:42 funding was uh an insurmountable issue it was the lack of funding for all the valuable services that we perform day after day which led to a shortage of time and great pressure on senior

00:18:53 time and great pressure on senior managers that I was alluding to um the the pan London body that I did attend fairly diligently were uh meetings of the chief Executives of most of the

00:19:05 the chief Executives of most of the buroughs that took place every five or six weeks I would think um there were occasionally items there so for instance the conference um on terrorism that I've

00:19:16 the conference um on terrorism that I've referred to or uh feedback from or plans for the unified response exercise but again I do not recall any discussion in that Forum of the kind that you're

00:19:28 that Forum of the kind that you're mentioned

00:19:32 now let's go back to the contingency management plan rbk30 is 28631 Page 11 paragraph 1.8 please and

00:19:43 please and uh you can see there The Heading training and exercising at the top um was it the case well let me read it to you uh it says this contingency management plan shall be exercised at

00:19:55 management plan shall be exercised at least once annually the exercise shall test and validate the activation of the plan the operation of the burough emergency control centers Beck the links between the becks and the council and Council

00:20:05 Council Services now with respect to exercising the contingency management plan I think you would agree that rbkc wasn't exercising it annually I would agree and so you would

00:20:16 annually I would agree and so you would agree not complying with what was set out in its own plan I would agree and looking at the next passage in 1.8 training shall be offered in each year for staff with designated emergency response roles and shall take the form

00:20:28 response roles and shall take the form of spefic specific training sessions seminars and talks and workshops in relation to training for staff with designated emergency response roles such as Council gold do you accept that that was less frequent than each year yes why

00:20:41 was less frequent than each year yes why was that

00:20:44 was that um I don't think there's a good reason for for that lack um I think that we did have occasional emergencies so some part of the eer

00:20:58 emergencies so some part of the eer Mercy provision was tested in reality but uh it did not directly involve my uh unavoidable participation as Council

00:21:10 unavoidable participation as Council gold now were you aware as David Kerry has told us that for the role of council Sila in other words those who were to lead the operational response there was no formal training program at any time

00:21:21 no formal training program at any time before the grvi tower fire um I wasn't aware of that um what I would have said is that I set some store by David's uh considerable experience and I think

00:21:33 considerable experience and I think evident expertise in the matter and I would have thought that um he would have offer been offering training to an adequate level and I think he did take

00:21:44 adequate level and I think he did take part in such things but I wouldn't be able to tell you the quantum or the sufficiency of it let's then turn back to the topic of training on uh local London Authority gold and and London

00:21:56 London Authority gold and and London resilience you refer in your statements to

00:21:59 to L Lo London local Authority gold is it the position just in general terms that that is a pan London mechanism which can be which can be activated in response to

00:22:10 be which can be activated in response to an emergency drawing on the resources of all 33 local authorities led by a single chief executive correct yes and those arrangements again I this is correct and Common Ground are are are underpinned by

00:22:23 Common Ground are are are underpinned by a something called a gold resolution yes yes which was I think a document passed in 2011

00:22:29 in 2011 were you familiar with that I've certainly read it yeah it was it was passed on behalf of each London B Council and the city of London um now you mentioned in your statement that you were inducted into the role of London local Authority gold this is um at

00:22:43 local Authority gold this is um at paragraphs 47 and 48 of your statement uh there's no need to go to it we can take it quickly but that was as part of your role as Town Clark was it yeah it it was me taking my place in that rotor yes correct right do you

00:22:55 that rotor yes correct right do you remember when uh you were inducted into that role uh not precisely no I think

00:23:04 it I would have thought it would have been

00:23:07 been 2014 or 2015 right now let's go to rbk30

00:23:16 36752 U what I'm showing you is an email chain in June 2017 before the fire and if we go to page two please foot of that page and go over to page three this is an email between your PA Sally Sprigs

00:23:28 an email between your PA Sally Sprigs and David

00:23:30 and David Monroe yes yep uh and David Monroe uh um is um as as it said clearly there is a London resilience Support

00:23:42 there is a London resilience Support Officer it's an email from him to you inviting you I think to a strategic response training session for chief Executives on the 20th of June that might well have been what I

00:23:54 June that might well have been what I was referring to yeah now had you had that type of training before June 2017 I think so yes when was that well I I I don't remember it would have been in my diary and I would have attended it with

00:24:07 diary and I would have attended it with uh Tony redpath at the um facility in just over from Lambeth Bridge uh that would have been activated for a London

00:24:19 would have been activated for a London wide emergency right now if we go back to page two please we can see the response from your PA Sally Sprigs back to David Monroe second half of the

00:24:30 back to David Monroe second half of the page and she says this is 5th of June 2017 she says uh David under the event prerequisites it refers to a number of documentation that delegates should familiarize themselves with Nicholas wants to have a look at these but I

00:24:41 wants to have a look at these but I don't have access to either of the sites mentioned are you able to send me the documents or send me a link so I can print these off and the materials were listed uh at the top of the

00:24:53 listed uh at the top of the thread um and take this from me they were well we can go to the top of the thread if if you like if we go please to the top of page one we can see what they were um second email

00:25:05 were um second email down uh she she specifies them and they are the London local Authority gold La a arrangements and the gold resolution and then strategic coordination protocol

00:25:18 then strategic coordination protocol London resilience partnership plan summaries London recovery management protocol and the humanitarian assistance framework those are the the the documents

00:25:29 documents had you seen any of those materials before um I think I had yes were you familiar sorry so certainly the first one probably the second one uh I'm not sure about the

00:25:42 others did you have them to hand um I doubt I would have done right can you explain why you hadn't seen the the ones you hadn't seen before

00:25:56 seen the the ones you hadn't seen before um I I don't think I've got a a particular reason why I wouldn't have seen them um I don't I don't recall anyone alerting me to the need to look

00:26:07 anyone alerting me to the need to look at them right do do you know how your PA was aware of what documents specifically to ask

00:26:13 to ask for no did you ask her to seek out this list I'd be very surprised if I'd been able to compile that list right so she must have got it from somewhere you know where well probably from um Mr Monroe if

00:26:26 where well probably from um Mr Monroe if he knew right the composition and now you can see from this email that David Kerry is is um is the person is is the address of this email yeah

00:26:38 the address of this email yeah uh you can't tell us whether there was a conversation between them or where she got that information from no no now um our records inquiry records show uh and particularly Mr Sawyer's

00:26:51 show uh and particularly Mr Sawyer's witness statement at go4 1349 paragraph 14 we don't need to go to it that you are on call on a number of dates in 2016 both as primary and as

00:27:03 dates in 2016 both as primary and as secondary London local Authority gold do you remember that yes were you actually called on when you were on call I don't believe so no right how could you be on call to act

00:27:15 no right how could you be on call to act as London local Authority goal without knowing what the arrangements were and without being familiar with the resilience partnership plan summaries and the other documents you hadn't seen sure well that implies that at an

00:27:27 sure well that implies that at an earlier date I would have read these documents it is quite possible that I would have done um all that I can remember of the training is the visit to the um location from which we might have

00:27:40 the um location from which we might have had to run a London Gold operation so I mean I think I've confused myself slightly I hadn't realized the dates on these emails I mean these emails are obviously you know just before the fire

00:27:53 obviously you know just before the fire the London Gold induction that I had was some time before that as I said in response to one of your earlier questions and if that training had

00:28:04 questions and if that training had embraced these documents then I would have read those documents at that time but they do not as it were I would not be able to tell you the content of those documents now no so sorry I said just to be clear at

00:28:17 no so sorry I said just to be clear at the times when you were on call as La L you were familiar with or had access to the the the the last three documents in that five document list

00:28:28 that five document list but not at the time of the training of the proposed training in 2017 is correct I that that seems to me the most likely thing but it would be checkable uh somewhere in the in the um exchanges of

00:28:42 somewhere in the in the um exchanges of email particularly around the time that I did the

00:28:45 I did the induction there should have been some evidence of these documents being being sent over I mean the the danger is if they're bulky they would have been sent in hard copy and therefore there wouldn't be an email Trail necessarily

00:28:58 wouldn't be an email Trail necessarily but but can we leave it this way that at the time of the fire although you may or may not have had a previous historical familiarity with them in your rollers London Gold they weren't imprinted on your brain uh or sitting on your shelf

00:29:10 your brain uh or sitting on your shelf correct yes I see now looking back on the internal and external training that you received yourself do you consider now that you were suitably equipped to deal with an emergency of the scale of grenfell of the grenfell tower fire

00:29:22 grenfell of the grenfell tower fire undoubtedly not and in which particular ways do did you or do you consider yourself iquit

00:29:34 um I think that uh it is possible that in the several years in which I served as a chief executive um I picked up the

00:29:46 as a chief executive um I picked up the notion that uh the chief executive in many cases was very dependent upon the staff that were steeped in training I think I'd also picked up

00:29:59 think I'd also picked up some uh belief or uh some view that because there were a great variety of crises that could hit um actually

00:30:12 crises that could hit um actually preparing in depth for each and every one of them was uh more than burus could cope with and of course the wrong conclusion to draw from that is that one had to put up with being a generalist

00:30:26 had to put up with being a generalist who would suddenly be confronted with a very specific disaster and I think that that was the quandry that certainly I felt we were in and maybe others would have felt that

00:30:49 similarly right can I just see if I can understand that answer was the problem that because of the infinite variety of kinds of major disaster that

00:31:01 variety of kinds of major disaster that could befall London and befall rbkc in particular you had no choice or you felt at the time to be anything more than a generalist that's what you're saying

00:31:12 generalist that's what you're saying that's pretty much it yes yeah now let's then turn to the question of capacity as at June 2017 had you yourself undertaken any kind of assessment to satisfy yourself as chief executive that rbkc as

00:31:26 yourself as chief executive that rbkc as a category one respond had sufficient trained staff to undertake specialist roles in an emergency such as Council Silvers and officers to operate the the

00:31:37 Silvers and officers to operate the the back uh no why not uh because I would have hoped that people who were uh more in touch with the specific needs would have alerted me if we were in deficit so

00:31:51 have alerted me if we were in deficit so Reliance on negative reporting um well uh I think that if I had formed a view that that function was poorly staffed or uh that the people there lacked uh

00:32:03 uh that the people there lacked uh expertise or professional skills then I would have been much more on alert but I actually thought that the uh Council was quite blessed with the staff that we had

00:32:15 quite blessed with the staff that we had um the core team had not suffered reductions in the spending pressures that had befallen a lot of other parts of the council and um I felt confident

00:32:26 of the council and um I felt confident that if there were shortcomings I was creating a culture a management culture in the council where people would feel able to say and put me

00:32:37 people would feel able to say and put me on alert and indeed if I may make one other point um in successive funding rounds each year the cabinet member for finance and I were very anxious to find

00:32:49 finance and I were very anxious to find areas where the general pressure relentlessly to make economies had to be overcome in the opposite direction if there was something that we really

00:33:00 if there was something that we really couldn't economize on any further was it not the position that in or as at June 2017 you knew there was an insufficient number of trained staff to deal with a

00:33:11 number of trained staff to deal with a contingency um I think the the history is that David kery had rightly warned me that we had too few we had attempted to recruit some more and the numbers had

00:33:23 recruit some more and the numbers had gone up but then they had come down again and I cannot remember whether I knew the last bit or not but I would expect there to be email evidence to that

00:33:36 effect you told us in your last answer that the core team had not suffered reductions uh because of spending pressures and you felt confident that if there were shortcomings uh you had a culture where

00:33:49 shortcomings uh you had a culture where you could be alerted my question is well were had you not been alerted to the fact that there were shortcomings in staff capacity in order to address a contingency um I think that there well

00:34:01 contingency um I think that there well there's a distinction in my mind which um doesn't sort of satisfy the question but there's a distinction in my mind between people paid fulltime to fulfill

00:34:13 between people paid fulltime to fulfill full-time or very large part of their time in emergency planning role and then others

00:34:21 who uh forwent their normal duties and became part of the emergency planning team if required so I'm referring to the former group that I don't think suffered

00:34:32 former group that I don't think suffered reductions the latter group I know had fluctuated in number and I certainly accept that by the time of the five there were too few of them right thank you let's just take the documents

00:34:43 you let's just take the documents quickly and see what you can recall um do you remember that the problem about Staffing was raised with you uh as long before the fire as October 2014 in a report uh written by David or prepared

00:34:54 report uh written by David or prepared by David kery entitled emergency staff recruitment and retention that's right and that that's what I remember responding to and trying to encourage more people to volunteer right let's just put that up so that everybody can

00:35:06 just put that up so that everybody can see what we're we're discussing rbk30

00:35:12 5838 there's the report octo 8th of October

00:35:16 October 2014 in the Box for decision the council has insufficient trained volunteers for major incident Emergency Management roles in the burra emergency control center support from executive directors

00:35:27 center support from executive directors is sort uh and then at page one lower down paragraph 1.2 it says there is now a significant shorall in the numbers of trained volunteer Emergency Management staff required traditional recruitment

00:35:40 staff required traditional recruitment methods are no longer generate new volunteers demands from the day job of curtailing attendance at required training sessions and emergency exercises support is now sought from executive

00:35:51 executive directors I'm assuming you saw that at the time I think so yeah what did you do about it uh well I supported uh attempts to recruit more volunteers right and did they succeed I think they

00:36:02 right and did they succeed I think they did temporarily and then the numbers fell away again right and uh we come then to January 2016 do you remember at that stage David Kerry expressing concerns to you about the numbers of

00:36:13 concerns to you about the numbers of Staff in the role of bar Silva and um incident response offers um I wouldn't remember it off the top of my head but if David told me so then that must be the

00:36:22 the case right let's look at OB k30 58 8 this is an email chain in January 2016 where he he he raises this particular

00:36:33 where he he he raises this particular problem with you if we go to page five in the

00:36:36 in the [Music]

00:36:40 chain uh we pick it up at the foot of four in the usual time oned way the email has become separated from its heading at the bottom of the page this

00:36:51 heading at the bottom of the page this is from you to David Kerry cop attorney red paath 19th January 2016 over the top of page five David a colleague at my brown bag lunch today suggested that there had been a decline in staff

00:37:02 there had been a decline in staff willing to form a part of a crisis support team from across the council is this recognizable as a concern and correct if so what should we do about it now just pausing there you were posed this question was the decline in staff

00:37:14 this question was the decline in staff as it were the rise and then the fall is that's something that happened between October

00:37:19 October 2014 uh and the first report from David Curry we've just seen and January 2016 so 14 months I would think so right um and then if we turn uh over please to um

00:37:31 and then if we turn uh over please to um uh page two we can see uh David Kerry's response the foot of page two to you y Nicholas Crisis

00:37:42 of page two to you y Nicholas Crisis Support team yes this is a current concern The Crisis Support team is a group of volunteers from across the council who have been trained to provide emotional support to people affected by a major emergency or incident in the

00:37:53 a major emergency or incident in the burough they will normally be deployed in the first hours of of an emergency most likely to a Survivor Reception Center or a friends and relatives Reception Center the team will normally work with people over 18 years

00:38:04 work with people over 18 years old uh and then on page [Music]

00:38:09 [Music] three uh his response refers to the Beck staff and the two roles that he says are of concern and you could see the heading One Beck bur emergency controller the Tactical Commander

00:38:21 Tactical Commander Silva uh and he sets out the figures there ideally 10 senior managers and then Beck offic and over the page to page four the numbers he says um two rols in the back

00:38:35 numbers he says um two rols in the back Beck supervisor manages the Beck staff and systems currently seven volunteers I would like at least 10 and then Beck officers currently 11 volunteers I would like at least 20

00:38:47 20 uh and then he uh um says a big concern with our Beck staff apart from the difficulty in recruiting new volunteers over the past

00:38:58 recruiting new volunteers over the past couple of years there have been recruitment drives within policy and Partnerships unit and to staff generally via casy brief briefly is their availability to attend

00:39:09 availability to attend training you see that yep uh now very little appears to have changed from his report in October 2014 and his email in January 2016 apart

00:39:21 2014 and his email in January 2016 apart from perhaps the recruitment drive to which you've referred and to which he refers here is is that right I think that's probably Fair yeah yes then if we go please to um page one of this email

00:39:35 go please to um page one of this email run you

00:39:37 run you respond 26th of January 2016 to him David belated thanks so you will kindly seek recruits to the former and let Tony and me know if that works I'm happy to Bang a Drum for Beck Personnel please

00:39:49 Bang a Drum for Beck Personnel please can you do a draft extoling the roles um what action did you take uh to ensure that there was in the end the necessary number of Beck

00:40:01 necessary number of Beck staff well I if there is further uh email traffic with such a draft then I would have used that to try and attract some volunteers let me show you what Mr

00:40:13 some volunteers let me show you what Mr ker told us in his oral evidence can we please have the transcript up for day 268 page 66

00:40:36 and on page 66 at line two he

00:40:43 says I'll just wait for this to come back up onto this

00:40:50 y on to the screen

00:40:57 we can take it we can we can live with what's there Mr Holgate can you see the I think so text with the moving hand hand stops moving I can read it it says it had been the philosophy at rbkc for as long as I was there not to have

00:41:09 as long as I was there not to have people appointed to roles and beond rotors and certainly not to pay them to be on standby but to seek volunteers for these roles there are other reports I've done in past years one or two reports over the years expressing the same

00:41:20 over the years expressing the same concerns and considerations and that's all I need from that but why was there a philosophy not to pay staff to undertake these important roles as in other Burrows such as

00:41:33 Burrows such as lbhf uh well I think we were probably stuck um with a practice that we should have changed um I mean I gather the council does now pay people for fulfilling these roles and we should

00:41:44 fulfilling these roles and we should have made that switch sooner right and I mean it wasn't a problem with about money it was just a problem about adhering to Old practices is I think so yes yes I see I see uh uh Mr Kerry told

00:41:58 yes yes I see I see uh uh Mr Kerry told us that the position as at January 2016 in numbers terms was pretty much at Rock Bottom he said and didn't substantially improve thereafter that's what he told us at 268 page 70 at 10 to 11 is that

00:42:13 us at 268 page 70 at 10 to 11 is that right was it the position by June 2017 that the overall numbers of trained emergency staff at the at rbkc had continued to decrease i' I've have no reason to disagree with him right do you

00:42:24 reason to disagree with him right do you accept looking back on it that the lack of staff had a hugee uh effect on the ability to train and exercise rbkc contingency plans um I I it probably would have

00:42:38 plans um I I it probably would have affected the capacity to train other people yes

00:42:44 yes we've seen from other material by provided by Mr Kerry that the overall number of burough controllers or back staff reduced from 24 um to 20 by August 16 and then down

00:42:57 24 um to 20 by August 16 and then down to 16 by December 2016 those are the numbers do they surprise you um I wouldn't have known them at the time they don't surprise me given what we now know and and therefore would you accept

00:43:09 know and and therefore would you accept that there remained a significant shortfall in the number of council Silvers trained to to occupy that role as at June 2017 yes I mean com that is compared to the number that David thought was needed

00:43:22 the number that David thought was needed and I would look to him to assess such a number there were three compared with the recommended 10 but that that Mr ker had recommended

00:43:34 had recommended um now let's then turn to a different topic minimum standards for London we've heard some evidence about this that rbkc in relation to its category 1 responder duties um fitted into the London

00:43:47 duties um fitted into the London resilience Forum yes and this is a structural point you agree with that yeah now do you also agree and we've seen plenty of structural material about this but let say we can take it quickly

00:43:59 this but let say we can take it quickly the London resilience Forum or lrf is is split up into sector panels which represent the interests of different sectors yes yes and you knew that at the time I think so uh and you understood

00:44:10 time I think so uh and you understood that that included did you the local authorities panel yes yes and that brought together 33 local authorities across London yes yes and at the time of the fire was chaired by John baradel yes

00:44:22 the fire was chaired by John baradel yes from the city of London correct yes were you aware at the time that rbkc res I capability was governed by something called the minimum standards for London or MSL which was set by the local

00:44:35 or MSL which was set by the local authorities panel uh I don't think I'd have been able to volunteer that information to you at the time I might have been aware but I don't recall it very well now um

00:44:46 but I don't recall it very well now um let me just show you a document lfb 20 two lfb 21

00:44:55 9219 this is the draft minimum standards for London

00:45:01 2016.1 uh which was in operation even though it's called a draft uh as at June 2017 were you familiar as at June 2017

00:45:13 2017 were you familiar as at June 2017 with this document uh it rings a it rings a bell but I I I wouldn't be absolutely certain no I mean the photograph on the front cover is striking is striking yes and you would

00:45:25 striking is striking yes and you would probably recall that yes uh then you don't recall it I I wouldn't be able to tell you what was in it now right so you so you'd seen it but you can't recall I think I probably had not only for the

00:45:37 think I probably had not only for the picture but also the sort of logo at the top it as I say it does ring a bell yes that logo the multicolored set of um Olympic looking Rings all in a string is is appears on a number of different

00:45:49 is appears on a number of different London resilience documents um and the lap logo on the right hand side is something we we will also be seeing as we go through but if we go please to page s paragraph n do you remember that these minimum

00:46:02 n do you remember that these minimum standards included an assessment of the operational response and contingency plans you can see paragraph 9 MSL assessment I wouldn't have remembered that right did you know that the that

00:46:13 that right did you know that the that the most recent assessment before the grandell tower fire in June 2017 took place in February 2016 right I wouldn't have known that right did you know what the outcome of

00:46:26 right did you know what the outcome of the assessment was was probably not if no didn't know the the fact of it um were were you aware and I'm going to assume not but correct me that the rbkc

00:46:37 assume not but correct me that the rbkc scores included Amber which meant operational but requires development for four particular areas first burrow level exercising second humanitarian

00:46:49 exercising second humanitarian assistance third shelter and fourth identification of vulnerable persons no I I I'm sure I did not know that CU I think that would have caused me some alarm whose job was it to report those

00:47:03 alarm whose job was it to report those deficiencies in the assessments uh pursuant to the lap requirements for minimum standards um well I would have thought it would be the staff compiling our returns right

00:47:18 the staff compiling our returns right was there a system in place within the rbkc whereby the results of those returns would be reported to you if they were

00:47:25 were significant um I I do not think I got regular reports of that material should you have done I'm sure I should have done does that indicate that there was a deficiency in

00:47:36 indicate that there was a deficiency in rbc's oversight systems in relation to preparedness yes were you aware that for the appointment of a humanitarian assistance lead officer or a Halo um

00:47:48 assistance lead officer or a Halo um that that had scored red which meant there was no operational capability or plan in place no I wasn't aware of that right and would you agree

00:48:00 agree that and would you agree that that that role the Halo role is a pivotal one in the event of a sign emergency U and that is is this right because the holder of that role requires knowledge of the

00:48:12 that role requires knowledge of the council emergency plans and The Wider London resilience humanitarian assistance framework yes yes uh did did you yourself appreciate the importance of the road of a Halo I

00:48:23 the importance of the road of a Halo I think I did before the the fire I think I did yeah did you ever ask yourself or anybody else in your organization do we have one and if we don't why don't we no I think again um if I joined the dots I

00:48:37 I think again um if I joined the dots I mean I would I would obviously have been very concerned but I think I knew of the role in the abstract and I I'm if You' have asked me the question a I would have asked uh David or Tony redpath and

00:48:49 have asked uh David or Tony redpath and B I'd have assumed it would be someone in the adult social care directorate well now under B of course adult social care was subject to the

00:49:01 adult social care was subject to the tribe bar arrangements wasn't it yes so had you asked did it occur to you perhaps that if you looked at that role you may very well have ended up identifying somebody who was actually

00:49:12 identifying somebody who was actually not employed by rbkc at all um well the idea of the tri bar service was for staff to be flexible across all three buroughs um so even if

00:49:25 across all three buroughs um so even if their contract of employment had been with one of the other two they would have owed duties to uh Kensington and Chelsea as well how common were triar Arrangements across London uh they were

00:49:38 Arrangements across London uh they were unusual uh they were um uh they were an innovation that began uh to be planned in 2010 in response to the reductions in funding of local

00:49:50 the reductions in funding of local authorities that I mentioned earlier right and from your knowledge of the lap was it common or Universal perhaps that a Halo would be appointed from the adults from an adult social

00:50:03 from the adults from an adult social care Department no I wouldn't I wouldn't have um NE I wouldn't know where Halos came from across London at large right what I'm really seeking to get at is whether um in those cases where a Halo

00:50:16 whether um in those cases where a Halo would or should be appointed from out social care there were some Burrows where the Halo would come from within the burrow but some Burrows in the unusual case of a trior Arrangement where they wouldn't rbkc being one of

00:50:28 where they wouldn't rbkc being one of them with

00:50:30 them with that well I think what you have is an innovation uh in the form of triara working for which not necessarily every consequence um had been worked through

00:50:44 consequence um had been worked through um from the perspective of something like uh resilience do you remember yourself being involved in any discussions about whether the arrangements whether the tribal arrangements for sharing pooling a adult

00:50:56 arrangements for sharing pooling a adult social care meant that there was an uneven distribution of the ability to have an inbar Halo across London no I don't remember you see the point I'm driving yes I do yes

00:51:10 um do you accept that structurally rbkc as a body and its Senior Management and decision makers had no system in place whereby they knew that the council was in the

00:51:22 they knew that the council was in the respects I've identified the Amber and the red failing to live up to the minimum standards for London set by the lap I do as far as I can recall uh I do

00:51:33 lap I do as far as I can recall uh I do not recall such an item appearing on any Collective management agenda and in terms of governance and scrutiny that was a failing on your part and on the part of the council I agree thank

00:51:50 you and I think as you told us earlier I think you accept all the admissions made by rbkc in its in its written uh opening in this module I do and that would include the uh admission that the

00:52:04 would include the uh admission that the there should have been more internal reporting up the management chain and should have been greater oversight both of the team itself and the council's emergency response C I absolutely accept that

00:52:15 that yeah let's um then go to uh rbk30 is 58010

00:52:26 this is an email run of March 2017 so a little bit less than 3 months before the grandell tower fire and it's it is an exchange between David kery and

00:52:37 it is an exchange between David kery and Tony Andrews of Westminster city council and we've heard a bit about Tony Andrews from earlier Witnesses in this module and it involves a query about the current state of play with humanitarian

00:52:48 current state of play with humanitarian assistance board issues um it's a lengthy email from David kery to Tony Andrews uh hi Tony sorry I wasn't able to speak by phone today rather a hectic

00:52:59 to speak by phone today rather a hectic day dashing from meeting to meeting and then there are four topics set out there um and I just want to focus on items three and four topics three and four three emergency rest center staff we have very few Council staff trained as

00:53:11 have very few Council staff trained as emergency rest center managers and staff we will of course call upon the British Red Cross under the mou for ERC Staffing but this is of course not a guaranteed service our last recruitment Drive using

00:53:23 service our last recruitment Drive using KC net did not result in any new volunteers training for Council staff volunteers would be carried out for us by British Red Cross under theou um now

00:53:35 theou um now um is it right that the last recruitment Drive the one that occurred I think between October 2014 and January 2016 hadn't produced new volunteers uh

00:53:46 2016 hadn't produced new volunteers uh for emergency rest center staff I have no reason to to doubt that looking at item four then identifying vulnerable people David kery says this remains a

00:53:57 people David kery says this remains a considerable concern at rbkc as discussed at the last meeting of the humanitarian assistance board rbkc does not have a good system for

00:54:08 does not have a good system for accessing details of vulnerable people out of

00:54:11 out of hours uh and then he goes on unlike lbhf we do not have a welfare bronze on rotor unlike WCC we do not have a Tony Andrews

00:54:22 unlike WCC we do not have a Tony Andrews on 27 247

00:54:24 on 27 247 call then he goes on about it being being

00:54:27 being raised uh and also the possibility possibility of a triar welfare bronze rotor

00:54:35 rotor uh this issue it appears with something that to be raised at senior level my question for you is were you aware of that issue the problem about the problem he identifies here I I don't think I was

00:54:47 he identifies here I I don't think I was should you have been I think I should have been yes and again does that point to a failure of oversight and a structural deficiency in rbc's management line reporting um I'm not entirely sure um I think

00:55:01 um I'm not entirely sure um I think that I think that there is a a balance between

00:55:08 between um the person at the top continually prodding all those reporting to him or her and a certain Duty on those in possession of um important information

00:55:22 possession of um important information like this to keep emitting it uh to people who are accountable for it uh in the end and I you know plainly that that didn't work often

00:55:34 plainly that that didn't work often enough and I think what one might say in David Kerry's defense is that probably um he felt that this was a a thing he was banging his head against a wall on

00:55:45 was banging his head against a wall on and maybe you know he decided not to carry on doing that right but can you account for why rbkc did not have a good system for accessing details of vulnerable people out of ours no I can't

00:55:57 vulnerable people out of ours no I can't can you account for why uh rbkc did not have a welfare bronze on rotor as its neighbor bur did um if that is an absolute requirement

00:56:09 um if that is an absolute requirement then we should have had such a person on the rotor I would not have known off top of my head that that was an absolute requirement or a desirable requirement can you account for why rbkc unlike

00:56:21 can you account for why rbkc unlike Westminster its other neighbor burough did not have a a Tony Andrews a Humanity Arian assistance expert on 24/7 call uh no again we should have done

00:56:32 no again we should have done plainly do you agree in the light of that that

00:56:35 that that rbkc at least in those respects was ill-prepared and incapable to meet its duties as a category one responder at the time of the fire uh I think ill prepared I don't know whether we could

00:56:47 prepared I don't know whether we could have made up by other means I don't know how incapable we should have been even with those deficiencies can I just ask you was this a matter matter of a combination of identifying the

00:57:00 of a combination of identifying the persons who would fill these roles and perhaps paying them to do it I agree that uh as the council I gather has now done we should have taken

00:57:12 gather has now done we should have taken the bull by the horns and uh made it much easier for people I think probably we should have gone even beyond that with the benefit of hindsight and we should have said Your Role you know to a

00:57:25 should have said Your Role you know to a number of people who showing some willingness to take on such a responsibility Your Role will only be 80 or 90% what it was before and now it will be 10 or 20% of an emergency

00:57:38 will be 10 or 20% of an emergency planning nature and maybe your pay will need to be adjusted accordingly so you know we should have had a more structural sort of reliable answer than

00:57:49 structural sort of reliable answer than just relying on volunteers yeah thank

00:57:54 you now I want to turn please next to the events of the 14th of June 2017 and to start with the initial attendance on site in your statement you tell us that

00:58:05 site in your statement you tell us that you first learned of the fire at Grenville Tower just before 3:00 a.m. when you woke up and heard the headlines yes yes and you go on to tell us at paragraph 18 of your statement that you

00:58:16 paragraph 18 of your statement that you immediately rang David Kerry the um rbkc contingency planning manager to get an update yes yes and thereafter spoke uh with the leader uh and with Laura Johnson who was director of housing yes

00:58:29 Johnson who was director of housing yes correct and also I think officers from the media and Communications team I think so what time do you recall attending the scene um I think it would have been around 4:30 probably right and why do

00:58:43 around 4:30 probably right and why do you remember that particularly uh well because uh it I think I was busy on email and the phone for a while um I had retrieved the copy of the emergency plan

00:58:56 retrieved the copy of the emergency plan um in the flat and then after a while my wife got up and uh we agreed that it would be a very sensible thing to go and look at the um circumstances around GRL

00:59:08 look at the um circumstances around GRL Tower so uh we probably set off a around for something like that right now at your at paragraph 19 of your statement

00:59:20 your at paragraph 19 of your statement let's go to that please uh at page four your first statement yes well no rbkc tri3

00:59:30 5426 uh you say at paragraph 19

00:59:36 19 uh having explained the visit to Hara Youth and Community Club of the rugby portter Bello trust you say at any one time there were two to four rest centers in various stages of helping survivors

00:59:47 in various stages of helping survivors from what I saw I was content that the rest centers were functioning properly it was also clear that the council's response would involve many Council services and staff what did you see to lead you to the conclusion that the rest

00:59:59 lead you to the conclusion that the rest centers were functioning properly uh well I remember seeing one that had capacity but wasn't being fully used and I remember at least one other that was very busy indeed um but they you know

01:00:13 very busy indeed um but they you know they seem to be helping people and did you see anybody from the council at any of those places no I didn't did you ask yourself why not uh I think I knew that

01:00:25 yourself why not uh I think I knew that there would have um the local Authority liaison officers prompting where necessary um and encouraging people to open up uh

01:00:36 encouraging people to open up uh facilities but I didn't expect them to be uh numerous nor did I expect other Council staff to be there that early because a I mean a very critical fact

01:00:49 because a I mean a very critical fact which I think you covered with Laura Johnson yesterday is that the great majority of borrow staff live outside the borrow sometimes quite a long way away and therefore there would have been a lag in people making arrangements to

01:01:03 a lag in people making arrangements to come to the borrow much earlier than usual and getting there but that was a known problem there wasn't it I mean if an event happened outside office hours for which the contingency Arrangements were required to be activated then that

01:01:15 were required to be activated then that was a known problem yes and I thought that we had some measures that would have mitigated against that risk and what were those measures well I thought that we had agreement with several

01:01:26 that we had agreement with several organizations in North Kensington for such an eventuality well to take the place of rbkc Staff well to be to be rest centers in the short term no what I'm really asking you is is access to

01:01:39 I'm really asking you is is access to your own paid staff at short notice in the event of a a a major emergency happening between the hours of let's say 5:30 p.m. in the evening and 9:30 or

01:01:52 5:30 p.m. in the evening and 9:30 or 9:00 a.m. in the morning well um I think I could move both the evening time and the morning time to reduce the range when there would be significant staff

01:02:05 when there would be significant staff because people worked very hard in normal days let alone days like that tragedy um but it is I'm afraid true that you know most staff were not living

01:02:18 that you know most staff were not living in or particularly close to the

01:02:22 burrow yes I'm I'm sorry to hop on what um consideration was given to to putting in place arrangements to have staff on hand on

01:02:37 arrangements to have staff on hand on call in an emergency which happened out of normal routine office hours yes I think there were telephone trees essentially that there were Arrangements whereby people would ring their direct

01:02:48 whereby people would ring their direct reports so the message would get out very quickly that there were there was a crisis to deal with and I think people would then respond as best they could to come in as early as

01:03:01 best they could to come in as early as they could in this case now you were thank you now you attended the scene and had seen firsthand the scale of the fire and the number sheer number of people directly affected what did you your assess your immediate priorities to be

01:03:13 assess your immediate priorities to be at that time um particularly with my conversation with Laura Johnson I thought the most urgent thing was to uh bua housing officers and social workers

01:03:26 bua housing officers and social workers get practical support to as many of the survivors as we could so uh uh financial support uh non-financial support where

01:03:38 support uh non-financial support where for instance uh someone needed a medical prescription and uh that needed sorting out very quickly and of course shelter um by the time of the next evening do does that tell us that your priority at

01:03:50 does that tell us that your priority at that stage that very early stage was the survivors yes yes what consideration did you give to those who were not survivors from the tower but have been evacuated or in the process of being evacuated

01:04:01 or in the process of being evacuated from the walkways um well really much the same considerations apply to them I mean the focus was the people who had had the terrifying experience of being

01:04:13 had the terrifying experience of being at risk direct risk from the fire and who would probably have had to evacuate their Flats with with little or nothing to help them um but I think that quite quickly the burrow tried to do what it

01:04:25 quickly the burrow tried to do what it could for those laterally affected as it were um by the fire and what about the families um of those who were living in the tower and needed information about

01:04:36 the tower and needed information about their loved ones um well I have to say that wasn't um absolutely at the top of my list um but I realized of course that it's a very important service why wasn't it at the top of your

01:04:48 service why wasn't it at the top of your list uh because I was more worried about the people who had um had this terrifying experience and who needed to be supported as soon as we could get there now at the time you were at the

01:04:59 there now at the time you were at the scene I think the the staff present were limited to two lelos and I think a third then attended later yes yes Nicholas Leighton and Mike Rumble and a third is is that correct I

01:05:11 Rumble and a third is is that correct I I have no reason to doubt that and it's right to think correct me if this is wrong

01:05:17 wrong that additional staff did not attend to assist at rest centers until after 10:00 a.m. that morning I thought that they at least some might have got there sooner

01:05:28 least some might have got there sooner than that and plainly one would wish them to have got there sooner than that um I don't know um what obstacles you know each member of Staff faced in order

01:05:40 know each member of Staff faced in order to get to somewhere where they could be of help as quickly as possible but I'm sure that they it was their intent to get there as well equipped as possible as quickly as possible and that they

01:05:51 as quickly as possible and that they would have had to judge the the how to surmount the obstacles to do

01:06:01 that and was that do you think that lag of time until after 10:00 a.m. that morning was acceptable um well it it obviously isn't acceptable um if people

01:06:15 obviously isn't acceptable um if people begin a process that is absolutely horrifying and deeply um traumatizing anytime after about half 12

01:06:26 traumatizing anytime after about half 12 or 1:00 in the morning it is a long time uh to cope uh before people come with a specific Duty and some empowerment to help you plainly that is a very long

01:06:40 help you plainly that is a very long wait do you accepted that that it was the responsibility of rbkc to uh to set up and to operate an emergency rest center yes I do within the meaning of

01:06:51 center yes I do within the meaning of the um the protocol yes I do and do you think that more staff could and should have been deployed earlier in order to assist at those emergency rest centers uh well I I think that that is a little

01:07:04 uh well I I think that that is a little difficult um but again uh it's a bit like the point the chairman made earlier what we could have done is we could have had more staff bed closer to the burrow

01:07:15 had more staff bed closer to the burrow or we could have paid them an allowance or something like that but I I you know I'd be intrigued to know whether um others had different ways of solving it I I think the closest we came to an

01:07:26 I I think the closest we came to an answer was to have an understanding with uh voluntary bodies who had facilities who had premises so it wasn't just lack of Staff it was actually lack

01:07:39 just lack of Staff it was actually lack of um facilities we had an office or two in North Kensington we did we didn't ourselves own some large space which would have been repurposed automatically for this now I'd like to turn next to

01:07:53 for this now I'd like to turn next to the Strategic coordination group meeting ings um and you cover that at paragraph 10 in your statement page three um uh this is rbk

01:08:05 this is rbk 335426 Page Three uh and paragraph 10 you say B gold um would work closely with non-bar agencies to coordinate the response notably the Strategic coordinating group scg of which I was a

01:08:18 coordinating group scg of which I was a member and which was chaired by the Metropolitan Police uh do you accept that the core function of the SC G was to create and maintain shared situational awareness

01:08:29 maintain shared situational awareness among other things yes uh and the first scg in relation to this incident was at 5:00 a.m. wasn't it I believe so yes and the second at 6:30 yes probably well you didn't my point is you didn't attend

01:08:42 didn't my point is you didn't attend either of those no I didn't know I think that they were occurring and others I think attended on my behalf did you not you didn't know they were occurring I didn't think so otherwise I would have done my best to

01:08:53 otherwise I would have done my best to take part um right can you account for why you weren't aware that they were occurring given that you were the chief executive um

01:09:03 um well I would have someone would have told me yes does did they well I don't think they did no I think I think they it's probably David took it on himself

01:09:15 it's probably David took it on himself to attend on behalf of on my behalf and you know I would not criticize him for doing that David at that stage was probably the best junction box the

01:09:26 probably the best junction box the council had available to bring the council's perspective to the scg yes but should he not have told you of the fact of the meetings C if not the 500 a.m.

01:09:37 of the meetings C if not the 500 a.m. one when you were still um perhaps um going around familiarizing yourself on scene but at least the 6:30 one uh

01:09:48 scene but at least the 6:30 one uh yes when did you discover that those meetings had happened um I I dare say he would have referred to them when we met um in the

01:09:59 referred to them when we met um in the uh town

01:10:00 uh town hall right round about 630 thereabouts yes well let's let's pick that up in your statement sure page four please paragraph 20 then um foot of

01:10:11 four please paragraph 20 then um foot of the page you say I arrived at the Town Hall about 6:00 a.m. and went straight to the backck I I recall that David kery and others were there um was that not an opportunity to attend this scg meeting I I think it

01:10:23 attend this scg meeting I I think it would have been as I say I can't account for the fact that um you know somebody didn't hunt me out and tell me that it was taking place no did you not even overhear the

01:10:36 place no did you not even overhear the fact that it was taking place or see David KY go off to it um I don't recall doing so it may well be that he was doing something which seemed to be important that he carry on doing no

01:10:49 important that he carry on doing no others have given EV well there is contemporaneous evidence notably an email from Toby Gould at 804 and for reference purposes that's G50 is 218 that says that Nicholas Holgate was

01:11:01 218 that says that Nicholas Holgate was on the 630 scg via teleconference that I think you're telling us that's not the case I I don't well I mean it is

01:11:11 possible it's possible that I was but I don't

01:11:16 don't recall I don't recall as it were outputs of that meeting or exchanges at that meeting which would have anchored me there but I mean you know if someone else thinks I was there I'm reluctant to

01:11:28 else thinks I was there I'm reluctant to disagree with right what did you do at the backck when you arrived uh I think I wanted to get an idea from David and others there their appraisal of the situation and to tell them what I

01:11:41 situation and to tell them what I thought was the priority Did You observe any problems problems with the it problems with setting up the log uh not at that point no I think I I'm I'm now aware that there had been a problem or

01:11:52 aware that there had been a problem or two but I don't think it was uh evident by the time time I got there right when when you did arrive did anybody report to you did anybody give you a sit rep situation uh I think David would have done yes right now you did attend the

01:12:04 done yes right now you did attend the third scg meeting at 8:30 yes mhm let's let's uh uh look at the note first of all just to pin that

01:12:16 the note first of all just to pin that down M Mo 6014

01:12:28 uh and this is an email from Toby Gould I'm

01:12:36 Gould I'm sorry yes there it is Major incident North Kensington London scg minutes 8:30 14th of June 2017 uh and you could see the time you

01:12:47 2017 uh and you could see the time you see that yes uh and uh the attends are on page

01:12:53 on page five just for pattern purposes the attendees at these scg meetings are always in a a list at the end of the document yeah uh and if you cast your eye down the list about halfway down you

01:13:05 eye down the list about halfway down you can see local authorities Nicholas Holgate Miss Bel Kensington and Chelsea along with Rebecca Blackburn Stuart Priestley and David Kerry yes yes so you were at the meeting MH um now um uh

01:13:20 were at the meeting MH um now um uh let's just look at something else briefly uh GLA 7

01:13:31 74 this is the statement of John Paul Graham uh of the GLA he's head of City operations uh and um if we um go in that

01:13:43 operations uh and um if we um go in that statement please uh to paragraph 41 which we will find on page uh seven sorry page uh eight uh he covers

01:13:55 seven sorry page uh eight uh he covers the Strategic coordination meeting at 8:30 uh and in paragraph 41 U he said in the second line um of

01:14:06 41 U he said in the second line um of your attendance at that meeting that you seem to be very interested in my proposal um which was one of leaing with rbkc about the mayor's visits uh and

01:14:17 rbkc about the mayor's visits uh and insisted rbkc be involved in any such Arrangements I was very surprised at this and it seemed again to reinforce rbc's skewed priorities in the after after of the fire Mr Holgate seemed to be more preoccupied on this call with

01:14:28 be more preoccupied on this call with minor issues such as the mayor's proposed visit to the scene and the possible attendance of Nicholas padet Brown leader of rbkc rather than the more important strategic issues regarding handling of this

01:14:41 regarding handling of this crisis is that a is that a fair observational criticism um I think it's absurd why do you say that uh because it would have been uh it would have had a

01:14:54 would have been uh it would have had a very very modest importance but in the sense that uh someone like the mayor was visiting we wouldn't you know it would be a matter of courtesy to know and to

01:15:06 be a matter of courtesy to know and to be aware of it um but you know the idea that it was an important issue compared with all the others is plainly absurd um yes thank you Mr chairman is

01:15:18 absurd um yes thank you Mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes if it suits you I think it is yes well Mr Holgate as you were told we have a during each session and this is the time to have the morning break we'll stop there therefore

01:15:30 morning break we'll stop there therefore and resume please at 25 to 12 certainly and as I've said to all the other Witnesses you no doubt know this but I have to ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it to the room all right thank you

01:15:42 to it to the room all right thank you very much would you go with the aser

01:15:52 please thank you Mr M 25 to

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01:35:28 would you ask Mr Holgate to come back in please

01:35:42 okay right Mr togate ready to carry on certainly good thank you yes Mr milet uh thank you Mr chairman now um let's take a step an hour or so back to the time of your arrival in the Beck um but between

01:35:54 your arrival in the Beck um but between the time of your arrival in the back at about 600 or 6:30 a.m. on the morning of the 14th of June and the scg meeting at 8:30 did you have any discussion with

01:36:07 8:30 did you have any discussion with Tony redpath or Stuart Priestley or David Kerry about seeking support from other councils either through mutual Aid on an ad hoc basis or through activating the gold resolution um I think I would

01:36:21 the gold resolution um I think I would have remembered without the ing of David's and Stuart's evidence that David I think I can just about remember did say that the fire was an exceptional

01:36:33 say that the fire was an exceptional crisis and um I'm more than prepared to accept that Stuart uh advised seeking Mutual Aid um so there was such a discussion in answered your question and

01:36:45 discussion in answered your question and what did you do with that advice um at that time I had given some thought as to whether we should invoke London Gold or not um I think there is an

01:36:58 Gold or not um I think there is an important distinction between invoking London Gold and accepting or seeking Mutual Aid across councils so I think at no point was I

01:37:10 councils so I think at no point was I against obtaining specific assistance from other councils where we knew we needed it but at that point I did not think that we needed to invoke London

01:37:22 think that we needed to invoke London Gold as such uh why is that well I'd given this as much thought as I could in the um circumstances of the

01:37:33 circumstances of the morning uh and I thought that uh I had and would still today for the specific officers in question I had

01:37:44 specific officers in question I had great confidence in uh the management team of the burough uh to respond well uh and to do a great deal of what was

01:37:55 uh and to do a great deal of what was necessary uh as quickly as they could and what I wanted to do was balance was to try and work out whether it was better that the council responded as a

01:38:07 better that the council responded as a cohesive management team or whether it was better to bring in someone who was not familiar with the burrow who would undoubtedly have brought u a handful of

01:38:21 undoubtedly have brought u a handful of London resilience people with him or her and who would have had to set up and get to know uh as it were not just the physical geography but the human geography and uh who was trying to do

01:38:34 geography and uh who was trying to do what already within the council so um at that time I thought that there was an advantage to responding as the council

01:38:45 advantage to responding as the council with assistance where we knew we needed it rather than passing the problem uh huge problem to a another chief executive of another London burrow who

01:38:57 executive of another London burrow who was simply the person on the root now um let's um go please to rbk30 is

01:39:05 is 13296 this is slightly later in the morning this is David Kerry's backck emergency incident log uh which is his type log based on his handwritten notes as he told us um

01:39:17 his handwritten notes as he told us um he he was satisfied that they were comprehensive so I think we have to assume that that is the case at least in this respect and if I can take you please to page 10 in this document row two

01:39:32 10:00 you see that 10: a.m. um item three uh it says meeting with David kery chief executive Nicholas Holgate director of hous housing Laura Johnson

01:39:43 director of hous housing Laura Johnson CEO and KC TMO Robert black Council silver Stewart Priestley um do you remember that meeting not as such but I'm absolutely

01:39:54 meeting not as such but I'm absolutely happy to accept what David says about it right now let's go then to the right hand side of the page it says in the second bullet point advice given by David kery to Nicholas Holgate this

01:40:05 David kery to Nicholas Holgate this incident is bigger than anyone local Authority in London can manage consideration should be given to asking for Mutual aid for the Beck there are people who can support NH and rbkc Gold

01:40:16 people who can support NH and rbkc Gold group including John baradell and you can see his designation there Ellena Kelly at suuk Andrew Meek who's the EP manager at harringay London's expert on

01:40:27 manager at harringay London's expert on humanitarian assistance and Dallas of ham Smith and Fulham who manages the or managed the dedicated disaster Mory for the Tunisia shootings um did you consider at that

01:40:39 shootings um did you consider at that stage taking that advice and using Mutual Aid uh that was um available well again I think there is a distinction between seeking specific assistance

01:40:51 between seeking specific assistance where we knew we needed it and invoking London Gold as such um so I was perfectly happy for the Beck to be reinforced by uh people practiced at

01:41:04 reinforced by uh people practiced at managing Becks from other Burrows um and I talked to I think Elena Kelly got in touch with me uh in the course of the morning and you have some emails between

01:41:16 morning and you have some emails between U me and her um and I think but I this is the faintest memory I think that in the event aliser SS thought that he should stay at Hammer Smith and Fulham

01:41:27 should stay at Hammer Smith and Fulham and stand up there Beck in case that was the right and helpful thing to do but I may be quite wrong about that now um what was your response to David Ker's advice that this incident is bigger than

01:41:40 advice that this incident is bigger than anyone local Authority in London can manage well I wasn't expecting us to cope with it just as um one local Authority I was going to and would be

01:41:51 Authority I was going to and would be happy to accept help where where it was required um I also uh had tried to work out what it was that we would need to do

01:42:02 out what it was that we would need to do and it was plainly you know there's no argument that it was an extremely big disaster um but to me the priority was reaching the survivors as we have said

01:42:14 reaching the survivors as we have said and I had uh high confidence in the bur's ability to be able to do that and I thought that that was what we ought to do so having convinced myself however

01:42:26 do so having convinced myself however erroneously we can now see having convinced myself that I thought it was better to have the uh responsibility cohesively run from with a group of

01:42:37 cohesively run from with a group of people who knew how to work together in ordinary times could work together very well um then having convinced myself of that I thought it was our duty and our

01:42:48 that I thought it was our duty and our responsibility to get on with it and that was why I didn't then invoke London Gold well that's London Gold but but we're talking about Mutual Aid really here which is the subject of the second

01:42:59 here which is the subject of the second bullet just just breaking it down first did you agree with David kery your expert in these matters that the incident was bigger than any one legal Authority could manage did you agree with that uh not quite no so because I

01:43:13 with that uh not quite no so because I had by then discussed what Laura was planning to do uh and I think I may also have been in touch with CLA Chamberlain I can't remember but she is the executive director of children's

01:43:25 executive director of children's services um and I thought that there were some very clear and Urgent tasks and the burrow was capable of addressing those tasks so you know it is one thing to say it is a huge crisis it is but one

01:43:41 to say it is a huge crisis it is but one then has to quantify or compare the tasks to which that gives rise and the tasks of which the council was capable and I thought that if we proceeded as a

01:43:52 and I thought that if we proceeded as a team working together knowing one another well the council would be able to respond effectively at least to begin with I wasn't sure about you know days

01:44:03 with I wasn't sure about you know days later as it were but to begin with that was what I thought we should do so uh is it the case then that consideration was given by you to

01:44:14 consideration was given by you to seeking Mutual aid but you rejected it uh and didn't or rather you rejected the advice that you should go to the people identified for support um well as I Say

01:44:25 identified for support um well as I Say Elena Kelly and I did um I think we both emailed and conversed uh soon after is this 10 o00 yeah well it would have been I think later in the morning but that

01:44:36 I think later in the morning but that you have an email to that effect now

01:44:42 um let's go to uh rbk30 is 13318

01:44:56 uh this is Stuart priestley's log of Wednesday the 14th of June 2017 it I should just tell you this is not a contemporaneous note it was made in the days after the incident if we go

01:45:09 in the days after the incident if we go please to the bottom of page one it said you can see it says 6:30 uh meeting with Robert black Laura Johnson Nicholas Holgate David kery David provided an update as had been

01:45:21 David provided an update as had been feedback to him by the onsite Lelo and gathered from the meeting he had dialed into DK advised of the scale of the tragedy Robert reported that he had attended the site and it was very

01:45:32 attended the site and it was very serious indeed Nicholas advises you can turn the

01:45:38 page Nicholas advises he has spoken with the leader who has agreed to fund anything necessary for the relief effort David advises Nicholas of the mutual Aid

01:45:50 advises Nicholas of the mutual Aid Arrangements available via LL G and our neighboring barers Nicholas stated quotes that looks like we can't cope close quotes the conversation on

01:46:01 cope close quotes the conversation on Mutual Aid at that point ceased Nicholas agreed to use the 11:00 Senior Management board meeting as the first gold group David Kerry confirms he forgot to call Tony redpath I agree to

01:46:12 forgot to call Tony redpath I agree to do so now and then um if one goes um on uh

01:46:19 uh one um can see uh that the there are later meetings but no 10:00 meeting so in timing terms there's a discrepancy between this record and the emergency log um first do do you remember whether

01:46:33 log um first do do you remember whether the meeting was at 6 that is described here was at 6:30 a.m. when you would just have arrived at the Beck or at 10:00 a.m. some hours afterwards I well it could have been both of course I mean

01:46:44 it could have been both of course I mean I think it's quite likely that we met on both round both times right uh and do you recall first David kery advising on the scale of the tragedy um again as I said earlier I'm I I don't exactly but

01:46:57 said earlier I'm I I don't exactly but I'm absolutely happy to accept his um account of it right do you accept that you said it when David advised you of the mutual Aid Arrangements available via

01:47:07 via LG and the neighboring Burrows that looks like we can't cope I I'm not sure I would have used exactly those words but again if that's what Stuart recalls I'm very happy to accept them they are

01:47:20 I'm very happy to accept them they are not a happy choice of words um again what I mean by that is that however erroneously uh I thought that the burrow could achieve the tasks immediately in

01:47:33 could achieve the tasks immediately in front of it um and yes we would need reinforcement but the reinforcement could be specific and as necessary it did not need to be put into a different

01:47:47 did not need to be put into a different process entirely what do you mean by the tasks immediately in front of it well essentially reaching the survivors right but reaching the survivors what do you mean by that uh

01:47:59 survivors what do you mean by that uh and offering them all the help we could um to give them shelter the next night to give them money to try and sort out specific difficulties they have and to

01:48:10 specific difficulties they have and to begin a process you know and a long a long relationship and process of trying to rehouse and so on that further off into the future but would it not be

01:48:21 into the future but would it not be right or was it not right that at that stage you didn't know how many survivors there were and you didn't know what the boundaries of this event were it that's true um I thought I mean I was

01:48:34 true um I thought I mean I was implicitly working on the assumption that there were a lot of survivors and that the burrow would be able to give many of them hopefully all of them help

01:48:45 many of them hopefully all of them help as soon as possible on that day and what about your own staff given the pre-existing difficulties to which Mr Kerry had drawn your attention

01:48:56 Mr Kerry had drawn your attention historically why did you think that the burrow could cope even with these tasks immediately in front of it given the numbers of Staff in the back available

01:49:07 numbers of Staff in the back available well um for some crises uh the backck is a very significant part of a Burrow's response in this particular case the

01:49:18 response in this particular case the Beck was still very important as a junction box for for uh exchanging passing on information in several directions but actually the housing

01:49:29 directions but actually the housing department as is evident from Laura Johnson's statement yesterday in your conversation with her the housing department was going to work as as a department pretty much entirely on the

01:49:42 department pretty much entirely on the tasks as we've described it and you know that brought a huge number of people with relevant expertise to begin to reach the survivors now there are two

01:49:53 reach the survivors now there are two different things let me just explore them with you there's one which is your perception of whether in fact rbkc could cope with the tasks immediately in front of it or tasks which are intermed more

01:50:04 of it or tasks which are intermed more intermediate and there's the look of a thing when when you are recorded as saying that looks like we can't go were you concerned about the look of the thing I don't think so um uh if I can

01:50:17 thing I don't think so um uh if I can backtrack just a little uh you referred earlier to my civil service experience and you know that civil servants are meant to be objective

01:50:28 servants are meant to be objective impartial neutral and indeed Council officers

01:50:32 officers similarly and I would assert uh very strongly that uh throughout my career I've been bothered about the substance not the appearance so I agree that it is

01:50:45 not the appearance so I agree that it is a form of Words which conveys you know an impression that I would not wish to give but actually I thought we were substantively capable of beginning the process of recovery and if

01:50:59 beginning the process of recovery and if having set lots of people working and people feeling they had the chief executive right behind them in doing so I then say well hang on a minute you

01:51:10 I then say well hang on a minute you know perhaps somebody else should take over and let's you know listen to what they've got to say and so on then I think that is giving of a rather uncertain note and I do not think that that would have contributed positively

01:51:21 that would have contributed positively to the ex and I think that was what I was trying to say right just to be just to be clear are you quite sure that in saying what you were recorded as saying

01:51:32 saying what you were recorded as saying you you weren't at the time feeling a need to protect the council's reputation from inevitable criticism about being under staffed or having the lack of preparedness or capability uh absolutely not and indeed

01:51:45 not and indeed um uh if I had had that uppermost in my mind it would have been a completely self-defeating proposition and I would not have entertained it now uh Rebecca Blackburn refers in

01:51:58 it now uh Rebecca Blackburn refers in her first statement we don't need to go to it it's paragraph 21 on page five to a meeting between the contingency management team at 810 between you David kery her and Tony redpath do you

01:52:09 kery her and Tony redpath do you remember that uh I don't bring it to my now was there a you don't remember a discussion involving her at that stage do you about Mutual Aid I

01:52:20 do you about Mutual Aid I don't which is not to say that that I dispute that it happened I absolutely don't dispute it do you accept I think you do because you told us that um as rbkc has admitted

01:52:32 you told us that um as rbkc has admitted in its opening statement in fact the leadership was unable to cope in the days after the fire uh I think that's absolutely right and I think you accept now that it was an error or do you accept that it was an error not to have

01:52:44 accept that it was an error not to have sought outside help including activation of London local Authority gold at this early stage I do I do um uh under a duty of Canada I would retain a sort of very

01:52:57 of Canada I would retain a sort of very small quibble that we are imagining a complete counterfactual if I had invoked London Gold early on and I think it it begs a whole set of questions about

01:53:08 begs a whole set of questions about exactly what would then have happened but I agree and accept that not least given the uh thematic evidence from the survivors that you had a week or so ago

01:53:20 survivors that you had a week or so ago uh that we were not coping very early on now let's then turn thank you let's then turn to uh London resilience and the contact you made with them on the

01:53:32 contact you made with them on the morning of the 14th is it right that your initial contact with London resilience beyond beyond where you were copied into the scg minutes happened after you'd spoken with David kery and Senior Management at the backck probably

01:53:44 Senior Management at the backck probably yes yes uh now at uh G50 173 we find an email let's go to that please um I'd like to go straight in it please to page two foot of page

01:53:56 in it please to page two foot of page two where you can see an email

01:54:05 uh uh at

01:54:09 uh at 7:44 there it is thank you from Toby goul to

01:54:12 goul to you uh do you see that copy to David Kerry um Nicholas and then it says Andrew L A to9 Chris l l AG from

01:54:24 Andrew L A to9 Chris l l AG from nine uh and uh the Chris is the incoming LG yes those that refers to the D the on duty yes L doesn't it Chris I think it's

01:54:36 yes L doesn't it Chris I think it's Chris nayor correct I tried to call but appreciate your very busy I understand you spoke to Matthew Hogan from our team earlier this morning and confirmed you were content for Kensington and Chelsea to participate in the scg meetings Stoke

01:54:47 to participate in the scg meetings Stoke telephone conferences please let me know if that position changes and you feel there would be benefit in London local Authority gold participation to lead on any pan London issues I'm not aware of any at present given the scene is

01:54:58 any at present given the scene is contained within Kensington and Chelsea you see that yes and then you it goes on about standing people up who may come back to that but you respond to Tony to Tony G um who is at London resilience uh

01:55:11 Tony G um who is at London resilience uh at the bottom of page one if we can go to that

01:55:15 to that please foot of page one you can see it says uh and this is you at 750 Toby thanks

01:55:22 thanks aside from housing needs that may well spill over burrow boundaries I do not brackets yet brackets think L needs to Gear Up um what do you mean by I do not yet think L needs to gear

01:55:36 yet think L needs to gear up well I I I whatever else um I thought that we were capable of doing I knew that there was a possibility that we may

01:55:47 that there was a possibility that we may not be capable of doing it so you know it would have been uh bizarre to have had 100% uh confidence in a decision or in a view taken uh inevitably with some

01:56:02 in a view taken uh inevitably with some uh shortage of information as to whether the burrow had an advantage in being um the core of the response or whether a bigger response that over time perhaps

01:56:14 bigger response that over time perhaps quite quickly perhaps not so quickly would have drawn from other burough in a in a much more in a in a much larger fash

01:56:23 fash so I at no point this rather illustrates my point but at no point was I sort of manically against um assistance but I was first in favor of specific

01:56:34 was first in favor of specific assistance where we needed it and only later you know when it became more obvious uh did I invoke London Gold so is is it right would it be fair to

01:56:46 is is it right would it be fair to characterize your Approach at this stage as as

01:56:49 as as incremental uh we're waiting to see how things develop before deciding whether to invoke London Gold I I think I think I think that would be slightly too kind um I think I I think I was probably more

01:57:00 um I think I I think I was probably more confident of being able of the burrow being able to give a very good account you know to be able to make very good inroads into the various tasks lying

01:57:11 inroads into the various tasks lying ahead of it for say at least Monday um sorry at least the wedness day at least the first

01:57:19 the first day do you recall having contact with incoming Duty L Chris Naylor I do U right and he and I think he confirmed to you in a brief conversation in that

01:57:31 you in a brief conversation in that morning that he remained on standby and at your disposal yes indeed very good now um let's then turn to the TMO if we can um we've seen from um David Ker's

01:57:42 can um we've seen from um David Ker's Beck log that Robert black the chief executive of the TMO was present at the Beck that morning and present at the council gold meeting at 10:00 um do you accept that the Civil

01:57:54 um do you accept that the Civil contingency responsibilities for the response lay with rbkc as a category one responder and not with the TMO in any capacity yes yes now we've heard in

01:58:05 capacity yes yes now we've heard in phase one of the inquiry how a list of residents and plans of the building were not provided to lfb on the night quickly um when information was provided we've also heard that it was incorrect or out

01:58:16 also heard that it was incorrect or out of date um and that's the subject of the phase one report paragraph 3.96 if people want to see it my question for you in light of that is do you accept that the responsibility for providing

01:58:28 that the responsibility for providing that kind of information lay with the council even if they might need to cooperate with the TMO to get it um I'm not sure I'm fully qualified to

01:58:40 um I'm not sure I'm fully qualified to give that answer but I I I would accept that it lay across the TMO and the council and if the TMO didn't have it then plainly the council should or could have had it right I mean try it slightly

01:58:51 have had it right I mean try it slightly differently um so far as rbkc needed to have upto-date and accurate information about who was living where and whether they had vulnerabilities or not in order to discharge its obligations under the

01:59:03 to discharge its obligations under the contingency legislation regulations and framework that was RB KC's responsibility um even if the information wasn't held within the I

01:59:14 information wasn't held within the I think you must be right yeah um what was the role of Robert black at the Town Hall and gold meetings on the 14th um well I think that uh he would want to have been cooperating and his

01:59:27 want to have been cooperating and his staff to be aware of the overall picture and this would have assisted his understanding of what the council was doing um and I mean he he could have worked with the housing with the housing

01:59:39 worked with the housing with the housing department without him being in the gold meeting but the gold meeting was as convenient a place as any other where you know he and Laura would be hearing the same material and working out what

01:59:50 the same material and working out what to do together what were your expectations of him and and the assistance he could give you um I thought that he could probably provide more staff some of them with knowledge of some of the um residents of grfl

02:00:02 of some of the um residents of grfl tower um but I I I wasn't expecting a huge amount um because I didn't know in depth uh the um the staff numbers or capacities that

02:00:15 um the staff numbers or capacities that he would be able to provide what did you understand the wider role of the TMO to be in responding to this emergency um well I'd have thought that they might

02:00:26 um well I'd have thought that they might have assisted in a small way with some rehousing um and I'm surprised that they their information on who was resident in the tower was um so imperfect but I

02:00:39 the tower was um so imperfect but I wouldn't have gone a long way further than that were you aware that TMO staff were assisting at rest centers and contined to create to maintain and to circulate lists of safe or missing

02:00:50 circulate lists of safe or missing residents from the tower to identify who needed support um I think I probably was available I was aware of that because I think probably Robert would have made

02:01:01 think probably Robert would have made that

02:01:02 that clear did you know that lists which were created maintained and circulated contined to have inaccuracies in them I think I knew that they were not

02:01:14 them I think I knew that they were not absolutely right but they were what we had to work with right

02:01:26 was it the case that rbkc was heavily reliant on the assistance of of the TMO throughout the time that rbkc was leading the response um not just in relation to

02:01:37 response um not just in relation to housing data but but physically I I think I was aware that the TMO LED on work to make the finger

02:01:48 the TMO LED on work to make the finger blocks

02:01:50 blocks habitable um so I was aware of some specific roles they undertook which were I mean very much part of the housing management function but I don't think um

02:02:03 management function but I don't think um I'd have known much more than that right I me was it the case that rbkc in the event had in essence outsourced its functions to TMO

02:02:16 outsourced its functions to TMO staff for example uh assisting at rest centers and triing survivors uh I think Outsourcing might uh be

02:02:29 might uh be too

02:02:30 too [Music]

02:02:32 [Music] um too proactive a word I I think that TMO staff probably sought to give what help they could wherever they could and that were that those were amongst the

02:02:44 that were that those were amongst the things they ended up doing well let me try it non proactively did you understand that the TMO were coming in to fill a gap in rbc's

02:02:55 to fill a gap in rbc's capabilities uh I would not have I would not have described it that way if asked on the day I'm perfectly prepared to accept it if that's how others slightly closer to what they were doing would

02:03:07 closer to what they were doing would have would have described it well how would you have described it I would have said that they were an extra resource and they were improving on the response that the council would otherwise have

02:03:18 that the council would otherwise have been able to achieve in what way improving well more pairs of hands uh more people able to um make a better rest center at the Westway

02:03:29 make a better rest center at the Westway for example but you're not saying that they were Surplus to requirements uh no I'm sure that we could have done with more people still right so that answers my question okay let me try it again

02:03:40 my question okay let me try it again though do you accept that they were coming in to fill a gap in other words to to to to to um make right what was wrong um

02:03:52 wrong um I don't know what we would have achieved without them being there compared to what we would have achieved with them being there I'm very reluctant to say no to your question because if they were there in sufficient numbers and given

02:04:04 there in sufficient numbers and given that the overall effort fell short of what we wanted to achieve I think you have to be right as a matter of logic well was it your as a matter of logic maybe that's right but as a matter of um what you understood or saw at the time

02:04:16 what you understood or saw at the time did you think at the time that rbkc as a category 1 responder was was unable to fulfill a number of its oblig uh obligations without the assistance of the TMA I I wouldn't have I wouldn't I

02:04:28 the TMA I I wouldn't have I wouldn't I don't think I would have thought that on the

02:04:32 day but do you accept it now I readily accept it now yeah is is it also right that on the day of the fire you personally received several offers of assistance from

02:04:43 several offers of assistance from colleagues in local government including Chief Executives from other London councils yes certainly and I think you referred to Ellena Kelly uh in your evidence uh earlier this morning um

02:04:54 evidence uh earlier this morning um we've seen that she at the time was chief executive of suuk uh and you referred to an email in on that morning um let's look at it it's at go

02:05:10 50309 and I think it's also at 376 but because it's been referred to before but this is an email first in chain to you at 650

02:05:22 you at 650 so if we go to page um if we go to the bottom of the chain

02:05:27 chain please y uh 651 I apologize Elena Kelly to you at

02:05:33 to you at 651 U copy to Jerry Scott at sou dear Nicholas just reaching out to offer any help we can to your offices regarding the serious fire in your burrow as you're aware we experienced the terrible fire in lachel house and say we have

02:05:44 fire in lachel house and say we have people across the council with both experience and understanding please do not hesitate to put any Department in touch with us best Elena and you replied if you go up this the chain please at

02:05:56 if you go up this the chain please at [Music]

02:05:57 [Music] um

02:06:01 uh uh actually um we we have this reply in a different email which is go

02:06:16 30376 we just go to that U that's it that that's where you say at 656 in response to this email Ellena many thanks I will certainly be in touch if we need to be and just

02:06:29 in touch if we need to be and just pausing there were you aware at the time of the fire that Elena Kelly was deputy chief executive during the laal house fire in July 2009 um probably not but I knew I I I I

02:06:43 2009 um probably not but I knew I I I I could see the link between her as chief executive sther an Lael house so I could see that she had relevant um expertise did you consider whether you could in fact benefit from her experience of leading a response

02:06:56 her experience of leading a response following a major incident where a fire had occurred in a highrise building in her

02:07:02 her burrow um yes but I think that her offer um and we did talk I think on the phone uh and the offer I took up which was in your other um extract was for the

02:07:16 your other um extract was for the director of Housing and another souk um officer to come to the first gold group on the th on the Thursday yes and we'll come back to that in just a moment that's a response at 1331 yeah there are

02:07:27 that's a response at 1331 yeah there are one or two Communications between 656 and 1331 I just want to show you first um uh rbk 4 is1

02:07:42 1253 this is uh your email that you

02:07:50 you uh I think pass on to Laura Johnson is the top at the top of the Y string at 737 yep uh also to Stella Stella Bailey

02:08:03 737 yep uh also to Stella Stella Bailey um who was at lbhf well in fact she was a very experienced rbkc employee in adult social care who was on Hammer SMI and

02:08:15 social care who was on Hammer SMI and fulham's books or she had an email address both in hammer and Fulham and rpkc as part of the tri B Arrangements yes but but but she originated in rbkc

02:08:26 yes but but but she originated in rbkc and knew an awful lot about the bur right I see and then copy to David kryy and all you're doing is part all you say is please let us call on Southern colleagues if we have anything on which they might be able to help um is it fair

02:08:38 they might be able to help um is it fair to say that you didn't at that point know how the council might use help from souk yes yes um yes thank you then then let's look back at the the 1331 uh email

02:08:49 let's look back at the the 1331 uh email at G50

02:08:52 at G50 309 this is your response back to Ellena Kelly again and you say Elena thanks again Chris Naylor has put me in touch with Jonathan

02:09:03 put me in touch with Jonathan toy uh and the director of housing here is in touch with your director Jerry question mark if you have any particular names or specialisms to put forward I would be grateful just occasionally people do not say they are struggling

02:09:14 people do not say they are struggling when they are so having a few names and a few words on the role each played stroke could play would help me if I sense we are Running on Empty How likely did you envisage that rbkc would be

02:09:25 did you envisage that rbkc would be running on empty as you put it during the response at that stage uh well at that stage not um but I think the picture began to change 24 hours later

02:09:38 picture began to change 24 hours later essentially right so does that tell us that you consider the level of response required by rbkc to be sustainable in the short in at least in the short term yes and what about in the

02:09:51 the short term yes and what about in the medium term did you think about that uh yes uh I did and I was particularly concerned about the range of centers and Facilities which needed to be set up so

02:10:04 Facilities which needed to be set up so that um uh as according to the contingency management plan there was everything that uh the survivors the breed and others would need

02:10:17 breed and others would need so it was beginning uh perhaps not on the wedes day but certainly on the Thursday to begin to worry me quite a lot that we whether we had it the

02:10:28 lot that we whether we had it the capacity management capacity to be doing all those things at once now the second is this right the second person you got assistance from or was off you got an offer of assistance

02:10:39 was off you got an offer of assistance from was Mary Harley who was the chief executive of of hanslo yes I don't recall what order they came in but it's quite likely that she did right um let's go to bk30

02:10:54 64627 this is her email to you at 9:35 which I want uh second email Dan on the string any help subject any help you

02:11:05 the string any help subject any help you need just ask you see that Y and she says if any of us here at hanslow members or officers can help you and colleagues in any way at all today or over the next days please just ask thinking of you Mary and you respond to

02:11:17 thinking of you Mary and you respond to that um thank you at 10:31 thank you for thinking of us we should be able to manage but if I see any shortfalls I shall be in touch now this is after in chronological terms as we've

02:11:29 after in chronological terms as we've seen that the either 6:30 or 10:00 meeting that you'd had internally with um Robert black um and David Kerry and Stuart Priestley where the advice was

02:11:41 Stuart Priestley where the advice was given to you to consider LG or Mutual Aid can we take it by this that at this point you had as it's clear here essentially um refused to do that rejected that advice uh uh and made a

02:11:54 rejected that advice uh uh and made a decision that you are were going to continue to manage um I still at that stage thought it was better uh to take responsibility myself um as a gold uh

02:12:09 responsibility myself um as a gold uh but I was not um as it were adamant in any way that we in every particular would have all the staff that we needed and it felt to me as it happens these

02:12:22 and it felt to me as it happens these sorts of messages were very encouraging because I thought that uh we would if we identified a shortfall I knew that there were neighboring burrowers that would

02:12:34 were neighboring burrowers that would respond very positively if we asked them for a particular you know housing officer social worker media whatever it would be I see um looking then at rbk30 64 675

02:12:51 um looking then at rbk30 64 675 second email down in this chain this is an email from Helen John at the DWP central government she was in the stewardship directorate to you uh if subject

02:13:05 directorate to you uh if subject Dreadful news timing 8:41 if there's anything I can usefully do let me know work won't miss me for a day or two take care Helen John and your response uh is at 1325 if we look at that as we can see

02:13:18 at 1325 if we look at that as we can see Helen thanks and very kind of you we think we are coping the main things are intensely practical at this stage hotel rooms cash and buying people essential Goods um were those your priorities at

02:13:29 Goods um were those your priorities at that stage yes right and for the avoidance of Doubt of course this wasn't the DWP officially this was a colleague whom I'd worked with when I was a civil servant offering

02:13:41 with when I was a civil servant offering help in a personal capacity but but no doubt about it if central government and the full force of central government was being offered through your personal contact and you needed it you could have

02:13:52 contact and you needed it you could have had it

02:13:54 had it um well we may come to central government but it wasn't clear really what they could or would offer all right would you agree though thus far that the consistent message

02:14:05 thus far that the consistent message from you to those who offered help from early on on the 14th of June was that rbkc was managing and didn't need help uh for the time being I thought we were managing yes I mean it may be worth

02:14:16 managing yes I mean it may be worth dwelling on this a moment longer in the sense of saying if you uh are in the position of sending several dozen and at times scores even according to a note hundreds

02:14:30 scores even according to a note hundreds of Staff out to do certain tasks there is a period of time in which belief is uh disbelief is suspended uh and you don't know for certain how well they are

02:14:43 don't know for certain how well they are or are not achieving those tasks so it isn't the feedback is not necessarily instantaneous uh and sometimes what you do get F back

02:14:54 uh and sometimes what you do get F back may not tell you exactly what you need to know in terms of asking for more help for this task or that now another source of help was Charlie

02:15:06 now another source of help was Charlie Parker at

02:15:07 Parker at Westminster I think you knew him quite well y yeah uh and I think it's right that he called you in the early days because he was worried about you personally is that is that right I think

02:15:18 personally is that is that right I think that's correct yeah do you remember him telling you on either the 14th or the 15th of June that rbkc would not be able to

02:15:26 to cope uh not in so many words no not in so many

02:15:30 so many words

02:15:33 words uh let's go to go 558 please email chain page

02:15:41 page two now you're not I think on this email chain which is perhaps the point but if you go

02:15:49 you go to uh

02:15:51 to uh page

02:15:53 page uh one was where it starts at the foot of page one I'm sorry page one this is now June the 15th 2017 at

02:16:04 9:42 uh p.m. so it's the evening of the 15th of June and it's from Charlie Parker at Westminster to John baradel uh and Elena Kelly at sduk

02:16:15 baradel uh and Elena Kelly at sduk subject Kensington both I just wanted to say Well done for getting Nicholas to agree to London resilience help I've tried to get him to recognize this is too big for rbkc and we've offered a wide variety of help but he hasn't been

02:16:27 wide variety of help but he hasn't been able to acknowledge that it would be necessary I fear he doesn't quite understand the implications and wider significance of what's going on however I have had a long conversation with him tonight especially about his personal

02:16:39 tonight especially about his personal resilience and a range of operational issues we've offered a number of Key Personnel including a colleague who handle all the sou fire coms in 2013 I think and and then it goes on about how

02:16:50 think and and then it goes on about how Housing Opportunity permanent housing opportunities um do you recall a conversation with Charlie Parker before the evening of 15th of June 2017 when he did try to get

02:17:02 15th of June 2017 when he did try to get you to recognize that it was it the the incident was too big for rbkc uh I don't think that he said that in those terms I

02:17:15 think that he said that in those terms I think what he may have done uh is seek to explore what we were doing and how we were coping in such a way as to prompt me to

02:17:26 coping in such a way as to prompt me to reach such a conclusion so you know I think that if a number of uh local Authority chief executive colleagues had said in terms um you may think you can

02:17:40 said in terms um you may think you can cope but you are not coping or you will not be able to cope I would have taken that extremely seriously um also I think if the timing of this email did I see the timing of

02:17:52 of this email did I see the timing of this email was 9:42 p.m. p.m. on the evening of the 15th I think it is perfectly possible that he had a call with me after I mean I think actually it's implicit in the

02:18:03 I think actually it's implicit in the email that he had a call with me after I had invoked London Gold and you know Charlie is essentially saying well done to the others um for you know mutual

02:18:14 to the others um for you know mutual agreement at some call earlier that evening that um plainly um we weren't succeeding and London Gold was necessary right well let's just examine that

02:18:25 right well let's just examine that chronology just a little bit more sure closely then in light of that can we look please at R um CLG

02:18:38 48314 um this is an email run from the 16th of

02:18:46 June uh and

02:18:52 uh if we go please down to page

02:19:00 two uh there's an email at the bottom of page two from Charlie Parker to councelor Nikki Akin copied to others at

02:19:12 Westminster uh and the context is the decision that I think had been made for John baradel to go in to rbkc as chair of

02:19:23 go in to rbkc as chair of lap

02:19:24 lap um but if you then go up the chain to Nikki Allen's

02:19:32 response uh she says only took them two days to decide they can't cope we told them first thing on Wednesday that they wouldn't be able to

02:19:43 Wednesday that they wouldn't be able to cope now do you remember that uh no and um I'm sorry to have to to volunteer something disagreeable but just before

02:19:54 something disagreeable but just before the break you uh showed me an email that was really someone obsessing about reputation management I think reputation management is very much the theme of

02:20:06 management is very much the theme of these communications but it is not my reputation or kendan and Chelsea's reputation it is the reputation of those in this email chain that we are talking about well was it a fact just answer the

02:20:19 about well was it a fact just answer the question if you wouldn't mind please is it a fact uh that uh either Westminster or others told you first thing on

02:20:31 or others told you first thing on Wednesday the 14th that you rbkc wouldn't be able to Cape no it is not a fact I can imagine how Nikki Akin would have come about this impression how but

02:20:42 have come about this impression how but it is not a fact right how would she have come about it would have come about through reputation management on the part of others why would others be interested in managing their reputation um well um what was the problem uh the

02:20:58 um well um what was the problem uh the the problem would be that this was a huge uh

02:21:02 huge uh tragedy and uh Not only would of course Kensington Chelsea come under intense scrutiny but also Arrangements around um London Gold itself so I think people

02:21:16 London Gold itself so I think people would be anxious as to uh what role they thought they had played or perceived they had played or would want others to perceive they had

02:21:28 played do you remember um that Emma strain was the person uh in charge of um well um she was assistant director of external Affairs at London councils do

02:21:40 external Affairs at London councils do you remember that no you don't let's just look at a document rbk30 65051 this is her email to you on the 15th of June and we're we jumped to that

02:21:51 15th of June and we're we jumped to that date for reflective purposes um this is where she offers the assistance to you uh of additional volunteers with sorting out donations and help with

02:22:02 out donations and help with Communications remember that um I don't actually but I'm sure you know it's it's plain there that um it should have reached me yeah right now um we know let's go to rbk 4 4229 because we see in

02:22:15 let's go to rbk 4 4229 because we see in that email that you forward this email on to Debbie Morris who this stage was RB KC's donations lead during the response and she's provided a witness statement to the inquiry at rbk30 35581

02:22:29 statement to the inquiry at rbk30 35581 and she explains this but at paragraph 23 but if you um if you look at this document you say to her I don't Debbie I don't think we want cash donations but if people want to give to the just giving or other webs websites that would

02:22:40 giving or other webs websites that would be fine we don't want physical items agreed um in the light of the pressure though that the council was facing in relation to Communications um being completely in un ated um why did you think or why did you

02:22:53 ated um why did you think or why did you not think that using this type of assistance offered by Debbie offered by Emma strain um uh was

02:23:05 helpful um well it's the sorting out of donations uh I think that that would have been fine um if that was a sort of physical contribution of members of

02:23:18 physical contribution of members of staff and that would have been up to Deb to um respond to just as Emma strain says pass me on I'm passing her on to actually not just

02:23:31 passing her on to actually not just Debbie Morris but to a number of others there um what I didn't want them to do is to think that they needed to make cash

02:23:39 cash donations um because the borrow was perfectly capable of meeting the cash needs not least with the bellwind scheme that wasn't an issue um what was an issue um would be um help with physical

02:23:54 issue um would be um help with physical items where we did need help and that was what Debbie was then engaged upon I didn't think there needed to be more physical items donated because actually the public response on the Wednesday was

02:24:07 the public response on the Wednesday was huge um and you know Wonderful um but actually it was so huge that it became a task in itself to um Corral the donations and organize them in such a

02:24:19 donations and organize them in such a way to be of practical use to the survivors but why not adopt the offered help from GLA in order to send the message out we don't want physical items please stop sending them in they're

02:24:30 please stop sending them in they're inundating us if you want to give give by just giving why not use the offered uh the offer assistance um well as I say I think I think

02:24:43 um well as I say I think I think volunteers folded into the command of the person in charge of corralling the physical ations was fine that that would have been for Debbie to take Emma up on

02:24:55 have been for Debbie to take Emma up on that offer so that's team London volunteers then there's a question about donate cash well not to us but to independent and uh charitable roots that

02:25:08 independent and uh charitable roots that would have that would have been fine um and then she says is it also please do not donate any yes well it was we don't we don't want more physical items

02:25:21 we don't want more physical items you were also I think offered assistance on the morning of the 14th of June from central government do you remember that um I think I was um I think it was of a

02:25:32 um I think I was um I think it was of a um tell us what you need sort of open offer rather than a specific thing yes uh rbk

02:25:41 uh rbk 45766 email to you from Melanie doors who was the permanent secretary to the dclg at

02:25:47 dclg at 0907 you can see it second email down dear Nick just wanted to express how shocked and sad I was to hear about the terrible fire at granfield Tower this morning we are ready to help however we can from central government Joe Farah

02:25:59 can from central government Joe Farah from dclg is already leading on this obviously today you'll be dealing with the immediate response but to do let us know as when it's helpful is there anything if there is anything we can do um that was at

02:26:11 um that was at 9:07 and 9:09 2 minutes later you responded to her many thanks plenty of blue light resource at present so that was your response did it did did

02:26:23 that was your response did it did did you go back to her or did you think of going back to her at any later stage particularly during the 14th of June and change your mind and say well actually we would like some help please from

02:26:34 we would like some help please from central government um I don't think I did uh consider doing that I um thought I knew something about what central government could or couldn't do having

02:26:46 government could or couldn't do having been a civil servant for some time having had contact with with uh dclg over the years in which I'd worked in local government and it was not immediately obvious to me what central

02:26:58 immediately obvious to me what central government as such could do in the immediate aftermath plainly there were things they could do a little bit further down the line notably Financial but on that day I didn't think that they

02:27:09 but on that day I didn't think that they were a source of specific or practical help very good okay did you know that Joe Farah had tried to contact you during the 14th but you weren't available to speak to her um I think I I

02:27:20 available to speak to her um I think I I think we may have missed calls or something like that I think I was able to talk to her on the 15s right but you you I think I think the upshot of your evidence is that during the 14th and indeed the 15th you you your view was

02:27:33 indeed the 15th you you your view was you didn't need any assistance from central government I didn't see what uh assistance they could really provide as central government at that stage in the

02:27:44 central government at that stage in the crisis now let's then turn to the First Council gold meeting that you attended that was at 11:00 a.m. on the 14th of June yes Y and you chaired it yes and uh what do you say to those who say that

02:27:58 uh what do you say to those who say that a gold meeting or strategic meeting should have been held at an earlier point in the day um I say that that might have impeded the work that Laura Johnson and uh adult social care

02:28:09 Johnson and uh adult social care colleagues and others were doing briefing staff so that they could get on up to the scene of the tragedy did you consider having a gold meeting earlier in the day uh but then put it off to

02:28:20 in the day uh but then put it off to 11:00 or or was this the first moment that you I thought that we were in train trying to get help to the site and that that was the priority for people who

02:28:31 that was the priority for people who would then attend the London Gold meeting the rbkc gold meeting and if we go to the meeting note rbk 30

02:28:45 13271 um you we can see who was in attendance and um we can see um if you go to page three that at the bottom of the page it

02:28:57 three that at the bottom of the page it says NH reported that a number of other Burrows have offered their help and we can call upon their resources and to establish a rot of officers at the rest

02:29:09 center uh was it the case that at that point I think it is that you hadn't accepted any of the offers of the help from other burrowers uh I don't think I'd accepted any specific offer for by then right I

02:29:21 any specific offer for by then right I think that the two officers from sou I obtained soon after this meeting y on the

02:29:30 the chronology now if we go back a page please to page two you can see that this meeting

02:29:41 records uh and the third bullet point down although there were no council officers present at the rest centers for a long long time they are now there were you

02:29:54 long time they are now there were you satisfied during the 14th of June and particularly at this point in the morning that there were sufficient rbkc staff at the scene supporting those affected by the fire uh I was under the

02:30:06 affected by the fire uh I was under the impression that there were but I would not have said uh that I would not have been confident of them getting there

02:30:17 been confident of them getting there much after n much before nine Maybe even 10:00 what led you to be confident that they were um well again it's a it's a lack of contraindication it's people as

02:30:29 lack of contraindication it's people as far as I was aware no one's saying um we have a desperate problem at such and such we don't have any cover did you go out to the rest centers to see for yourself which rbkc staff were there and

02:30:41 yourself which rbkc staff were there and what they were doing no I didn't um I think it

02:30:45 think it is expected or part of the protocol of the contingency management plan that the gold is pretty proximate to the B emergency control center not

02:30:56 B emergency control center not necessarily sort of sitting in the room but very contactable very close by and after my um visit up to the scene of the disaster early in the morning I didn't

02:31:07 disaster early in the morning I didn't think I should absent myself again that day um what was your assessment that day perhaps coming into the afternoon of the way the rest centers were operating

02:31:20 way the rest centers were operating um I I think if you'd asked me exactly that question at the time I would have said that I was under the impression that the voluntary sector had done a very good job in providing some shelter

02:31:34 very good job in providing some shelter some rest fite some sustenance for the survivors and that we were probably in the process of trying to um Whittle down the number so that we had one large

02:31:47 the number so that we had one large facility to look after instead of coming to deputize at or support a number of them now let's look at rbk30 37123 this is an email from councelor

02:32:00 37123 this is an email from councelor Mills sent to you and councelor Nicholas padet Brown and Laura Johnson at 12:59 on the 14th of June dear officers I

02:32:12 on the 14th of June dear officers I spent time there this morning and we'll go back now she gives her telephone number the trust wanted to know if you can send an officer to help lia's with the different agencies and act as a coordinating voice most grateful if you

02:32:23 coordinating voice most grateful if you can do let me know if I can assist also and of course my mobile will be on alert um was it the position that there was an absence of ibkc leadership at the rest centers that were

02:32:34 centers that were operating um I I I think it must be so yeah why um I think for a little while at least

02:32:44 at least um we were depending on the people who'd very kindly opened them up and were running them um but I think that we were trying also to find people who would go and take

02:32:56 to find people who would go and take over from them as soon as we could and that was still happening was it by 1: 1: p.m. I'm I'm a bit surprised that it's still happening then it is just possible that uh councelor Mills thought that

02:33:07 that uh councelor Mills thought that there was as it were someone in addition to whoever might also have been there doing something specific for anyone taking shelter at that rest center right let's go to rbk30 37 309

02:33:28 next this is an email from Rock Fielding melon on the 14th of June 1442 to you uh re Westway we are getting more messages about Westway Sports Center being in

02:33:39 about Westway Sports Center being in chaos who is going to manage it and when will she he she she he get here sorry get there maybe let Angela mcconville know so she can give name of manager

02:33:50 know so she can give name of manager there were you concerned that there were reports of as he calls it chaos at the West way yes I'm sure yes that's a very strong word to use it well did you seek to understand what was going on there

02:34:01 to understand what was going on there and why it was in chaos um well uh I I can't honestly remember what I did um but I suppose I would have inferred that there were a lot of people in need of

02:34:13 there were a lot of people in need of help and it not being clear who to go to or the people who were there helping were in short supply compared to those needing help what did you do in response

02:34:24 needing help what did you do in response to this message um I think we I checked that there were people who could be sent up there to help I can't imagine what else I would have done who would you have checked

02:34:35 have done who would you have checked with well who did you check with I don't know I mean I might have started with Laura um and gone on to social care colleagues right but Laura was housing yes indeed but there would have been I

02:34:46 yes indeed but there would have been I would have thought there would have been housing officers there under taking their role so she might have had a perspective on what else was needed how do you thought this I'm I'm I I don't know the answer to that question

02:34:59 I don't know the answer to that question let me be clear I'm guessing let's go next to rbk30

02:35:06 13272 what I'm showing you next here are the minutes of the rbkc gold meeting that happened at 3:00 on the 14th of June you are present and you can see who else was present

02:35:18 and you can see who else was present Robert black also present and if we go please to page two where you see in the second bullet point

02:35:26 down uh under issues and actions arising from the

02:35:30 from the meeting it says second bullet point down we were short of senior managers at the rest centers the board was invited to submit a list of volunteers with corporate cards to

02:35:41 corporate cards to tr who could help manage to keep the centers open supporting the Specialists until the people have been cleared the TR I think is Tony redpath

02:35:52 TR I think is Tony redpath correct uh would you accept that that was a constant problem on the 14th of June and one which continued until the next day yes I would why was there a

02:36:03 next day yes I would why was there a shortage of senior managers at the rest centers well I think we had probably misjudged uh the extent to which we needed to be present there in significant numbers um compared to the

02:36:17 significant numbers um compared to the possibility that a smaller number of people with the help of those running the Westway Sports Center itself might have been sufficient was you say you may have misjudge was it a misjudgment on

02:36:29 have misjudge was it a misjudgment on the day about deployment of available people or was it a historic misjudgment um about

02:36:38 um about preparation uh probably both the certainly the second would include the first but yeah yes I see was that a reflection of the fact that RB rbkc in fact

02:36:50 that RB rbkc in fact structurally and in resource terms couldn't cope with the scale of this incident I think well it was becoming clear it was not clear enough to me on

02:37:01 clear it was not clear enough to me on the day uh on that Wednesday we were in continuous sort of call and response mode I would say we were uh seeking to

02:37:12 mode I would say we were uh seeking to do better we knew certain things we had to do um other things then needed to be added to that list and I think that that forms part of the cycle of action and

02:37:25 forms part of the cycle of action and reaction over the course of that day did this message from Rock Fielding melon the West way was in chaos not prompt you to reconsider whether or not you should be seeking external Mutual Aid or indeed

02:37:36 be seeking external Mutual Aid or indeed triggering the llag gold Arrangements um I think I thought it was a problem that could be solved within our capacity rather

02:37:44 rather than escalating why did you think that because uh there were significant parts of the council who were not completely under the Kos already and whom I could

02:37:56 under the Kos already and whom I could turn for further support So Debbie Morris looking after the donations was one example I think Sue Harris took on um creating a rotor that would help with

02:38:08 um creating a rotor that would help with the westw sports center and it was a case of absorbing tasks across the breadth of the council did you discuss that very question with David Kerry or

02:38:19 that very question with David Kerry or um Stuart Priestley or Tony redpath at the time so midaf afternoon I I don't remember a specific conversation on that right um let's then go next to g501

02:38:33 159 uh which is an email at

02:38:38 1421 uh 1426 sorry on the 14th of June second email down from uh John heatherington to Chris Naylor the on duty LL

02:38:51 duty LL uh and uh this provides a general update on the situation um and um there's a response from Chris Naylor at the top of the

02:38:59 the string into which you are copied as well as John baradel at this point and the response is simply a thank you but if we look down at the at the te

02:39:10 you but if we look down at the at the te at the

02:39:12 at the substance uh in the third paragraph it says can you see third line down from that start of that par cordon's remain in place can you see that

02:39:24 in place can you see that um third paragraph there are six confirmed fatalities yes yeah yes then Cordon remain in place and then says rbkc have opened a number of reception centers and a friends and family center for this looking for people involved in

02:39:36 for this looking for people involved in the incident they have support from lbhf for the reception centers and have received supportive offers from a number of burrowers at present they are managing within demands and assessing the exact need for support there is a

02:39:47 the exact need for support there is a cross whiteall meeting at 6 at 1600 hours which Nicholas will be on on the call uh to represent local government the focus at present is for rbkc is sorting out the Practical and

02:39:58 sorting out the Practical and accommodation needs for those affected by the

02:40:01 by the incident was that an accurate accurate summary of the position as it stood at the time as you saw it

02:40:08 it um well I think the last sentence is correct

02:40:14 correct um I think that given what we've just seen um

02:40:19 seen um to say rbkc have opened a number of reception centers is not is not right because the voluntary sector opened reception centers for the most part I mean you can I think Westway might be

02:40:31 mean you can I think Westway might be different um at present they are managing within demands well we were in the process of trying to um ensure that we were so I think that is probably too

02:40:43 we were so I think that is probably too optimistic um but we were trying to assess the exact need for support certainly right so not perfect right so you were intending to manage within demands thought you were

02:40:55 manage within demands thought you were but in fact weren't I think that's fair enough right now then let's turn to the first um ministerial meeting cross White Hall uh um as it says in this email

02:41:06 Hall uh um as it says in this email there was to be one at600 hours was it the case that you received the invitation for that meeting but due to an administrative error not of your making you were unable to join the

02:41:17 making you were unable to join the call um I'm pretty certain I didn't join it um the reason for not joining it you know would not come naturally to mind right um there are records within the inquiries disclosure that show that but

02:41:29 inquiries disclosure that show that but you don't know anything about the reason but you didn't join it you saw that it was going to happen though from the email that you got or copied into from Chris Naylor to John heatherington did you follow that up and and seek to join

02:41:41 you follow that up and and seek to join the cross whiteall meeting I don't remember and there are quite a few meetings and I'm not sure when the Strategic coordinating group meeting was

02:41:53 Strategic coordinating group meeting was at that time I think my own Council goal meeting had finished before it but I'm not sure about the I think the scg might have been 5:30 so it should have been possible yeah yes do

02:42:06 should have been possible yeah yes do you were you were you asked to provide any information to the crosswhite hall meeting before it happened I don't remember doing so and I

02:42:17 happened I don't remember doing so and I would have been very surprised if I wouldn't have written an email to that effect if I had been asked to do so right let's go to cab 42714 minutes of that

02:42:34 meeting that's cab 42714 there it is ministerial meeting Grandfield Tower far 14th June 2017 now um we don't have a a record of

02:42:47 2017 now um we don't have a a record of your receiving these minutes after the meeting

02:42:49 meeting either in an email or in the documents in your possession do you remember seeing these minutes after the meeting at all I'm pretty certain I wouldn't have seen them not right let's go to page one uh B at the

02:43:02 page one uh B at the bottom immediate shelter and medium-term rehousing that was listed as a key issue and then underneath that it says the local Council were presently identifying temporary accommodation for those

02:43:13 temporary accommodation for those residents of grvi tower longer term rehousing would also be the responsibility of the council the council not currently asking for additional support I think from your evidence this morning that correctly

02:43:26 evidence this morning that correctly summarized the position didn't it yes I think that's fair enough as a summary yeah were you contacted after the meeting about why you weren't there or perhaps to get or to be the recipient of an update do you remember no I I don't

02:43:38 an update do you remember no I I don't recall that right um then let's move on in the day then to the meeting with John baradel at 5:30 17:30 on that day 14th of June um let go please to go

02:43:53 of June um let go please to go 50155 we can see the invitation and the agenda for that meeting uh and at it were to be you Chris Naylor John baradel John

02:44:05 be you Chris Naylor John baradel John O'Brien John heatherington and Mark Sawyer and the agenda items significant changes to the situation overview and pan London coordination structures in place John heatherington and Nicholas

02:44:16 place John heatherington and Nicholas Holgate immediate and longer term report requirements for rbk andc Nicholas Holgate wider London implications all it is anticipated to take approximately 15

02:44:27 is anticipated to take approximately 15 mins for the call and that was sent at at

02:44:31 at 1610 yes uh yes uh and you as you can see got that invitation now um did what was your

02:44:42 invitation now um did what was your understanding well put let me ask you this way um if you look at the text it says a telephone conference has been organized for 7 1930 the purpose of the call is to understand the likely support rbkc will require and how this can be

02:44:54 rbkc will require and how this can be best supported across local government and in particular strategic support to Nicholas secondly to consider the wider implications for rbkc and London and what initial actions are required was it

02:45:05 what initial actions are required was it you who prompted that call and and the the purpose of that meeting uh I don't think so so is it thrust upon you essentially uh well very welcome uh I think it was a very welcome initiative

02:45:16 think it was a very welcome initiative on um London resilience part right was it your view at the time that the call had no purpose because you didn't need support no no um I thought that the um

02:45:28 support no no um I thought that the um value of the call in addition to anything that other copy recipients thought they would get from it the value of the call would be for me to give an account and for others on the call to say have you thought of X or what you've

02:45:41 say have you thought of X or what you've said on why is either reassuring not reassuring and so on I I it was a way of people who had thought more deeply about

02:45:52 people who had thought more deeply about emergency planning than I had to hold me to account in a kindly fashion but nevertheless an effective

02:46:04 fashion that's not how it comes across though is it in John hetherington's text uh of what he says in the email well um I mean what he says is

02:46:15 well um I mean what he says is absolutely fine as far as it goes but I think that the subtext was are you managing and do you need to invoke London Gold or not

02:46:27 you need to invoke London Gold or not did it occur to you at the time to ask yourself the question well why are they asking me that I'm managing fine uh I would not have taken so presumptuous um

02:46:38 would not have taken so presumptuous um an attitude um I think having talked to Ellen a Kelly earlier in the day and also

02:46:47 also having seen of the toing and throwing and the um efforts we were making to try and bring help um there was room for doubt there was room

02:46:59 doubt there was room for not knowing as much as I could have done and

02:47:05 done and um sharing where I thought we were with this particular set of copy recipients was as good a way of stress testing what we were then doing as I

02:47:16 testing what we were then doing as I could find is it fair to say that by this stage tea time on the four 14th of June that you are beginning to have doubts about your confidence in the

02:47:27 doubts about your confidence in the ability of rbkc to cope on its own without external help I I think I was probably still thinking that we were um in the throws of a

02:47:39 in the throws of a response and that we were making some progress I mean I I took some comfort at uh both gold meetings from what appeared

02:47:50 uh both gold meetings from what appeared to be and what I think was actually some good progress on the part of the housing department which Laura Johnson sets out in her statement for example um

02:48:03 in her statement for example um so you know I knew that I did not know um but I did not know how far we were falling short and having an interlocutor who was

02:48:17 short and having an interlocutor who was independent of the efforts that the council was making but who had given thought and um had uh a professional relevant professional

02:48:28 a professional relevant professional background was a very good way of trying to either affirm or refute uh that we were doing enough in the right way now according to John badell's inquiry

02:48:40 according to John badell's inquiry witness statement number one at paragraph 31 he refers to various issues facing rbkc that the were subject of what he says there were extensive discussion on the

02:48:52 there were extensive discussion on the call can you help us with what those were

02:49:00 um well do you agree first of all there was extensive discussion of various issues well um extensive implies that it went on for quite a long time uh I think

02:49:11 went on for quite a long time uh I think I'd be surprised if it lasted as short a time as 15 minutes but I'm not sure it went on a very long time um

02:49:20 time um um what I do recall is John hetherington's account of that telephone meeting and I think I remember thinking that that was a perfectly reasonable

02:49:32 that that was a perfectly reasonable account of it when I saw it I see um do you remember whether questions were asked about the sufficiency of resources in relation to Temporary housing or um social workers or Communications or

02:49:45 social workers or Communications or Community cohesion and things of that M that nature I I I don't remember the specifics of the call I'm afraid I think John's account is all that I would sort

02:49:56 John's account is all that I would sort of recollect at one remove right let's look at that and see if what I'm putting to you is what you you're referring to by his account go 5 is

02:50:09 181 this is an uh an an email um of

02:50:16 of 1859 at the 14th of June from John heatherington to you and Chris Naylor John barel and Mark Sawyer and John Brian good evening a short pry of

02:50:29 John Brian good evening a short pry of the telephone conference and that you can see what's then set out under is this what you're referring to yes it is I think so so you've read this recently have you uh a few days ago probably right but having refreshed your memory

02:50:41 right but having refreshed your memory from it you you you don't have any quarrel with its accuracy as an account of the no I I think I thought at the time it was accurate and i' no reason to

02:50:52 time it was accurate and i' no reason to change my tune on that right do you know why a full minute wasn't taken of the meeting

02:51:00 meeting um well I mean that may just be um people uh trying to um convey the substance of a meeting in a in a you know under considerable

02:51:12 in a in a you know under considerable time pressure making sure that the headlines are circulated as quickly as they can now John ran has provided a witness statement of the inquiry let's just look at that please it's Lo

02:51:26 just look at that please it's Lo 704 and let's look at page three in

02:51:37 it and I'd like to look with you please at paragraph s this is about this meeting uh and uh he refers to the 1859 uh note

02:51:49 1859 uh note we've just looked at which he exhibits and he said this note the note does not record an Kelly as being present on this call and I do not recall her being so during the call I said to Nicholas Holgate that if the council's political

02:52:01 Holgate that if the council's political leadership thought it would be helpful at any point to have a conversation with other burrow leaders I would be happy to see if I could facilitate that my recollection is that on the call Nicholas Holgate

02:52:12 that on the call Nicholas Holgate related the response actions being taken by the council to that point in time working with other partners and answered some questions on that from other participants on the call just pausing there is that is that right that seems right to me participants asked Nicholas

02:52:24 right to me participants asked Nicholas Holgate to consider further specific assistance that the council may require from other buroughs is that right uh I think it's very likely they would have said such a thing I difficult to that

02:52:35 said such a thing I difficult to that right and then Nicholas Holgate acknowledged the many offers of mutual Aid that were already been made and welcomed and welcomed further steps including the invitation to receive further experienced offices the next day

02:52:47 further experienced offices the next day were agreed as detailed in the next do you agree with both of those I think that's right right thank you now um if we go back to the pry of the meeting please at

02:52:58 please at gl50

02:53:01 50181 uh which youve accepted uh it says under immediate and longer term support lb souk will send two officers senior officers with recent

02:53:12 two officers senior officers with recent experience and longer term experience of recovery following the London Bridge and Lael house incidents and underneath that four lines underneath that city of London have offered Communications team

02:53:24 London have offered Communications team support to rbkc this will be arranged direct between the two comm's teams London resilience will work with rbkc to ensure the right support to humanitarian assistance and Recovery

02:53:35 humanitarian assistance and Recovery going

02:53:35 going forward um accepted the accuracy of that as a top subject of discussion was there any support offered that you didn't accept any specific support I don't

02:53:47 accept any specific support I don't think so

02:53:49 think so did anyone advise you that the incident was too big for one local authority to deal with no was activation of the London Gold resolution discussed by anyone on that call I I don't think it was explicitly discussed but I do think

02:54:02 was explicitly discussed but I do think it lurked underneath the conversation um and I think that I mean if I had either Changed My Mind by then or if the answers to the questions had

02:54:13 or if the answers to the questions had been

02:54:14 been insufficiently um encouraging then I think

02:54:19 think I would have expected um and they would have been well within their rights to say we think you should invoke London Gold and you say it lurked under the surface was that purely because of the identity of those on the call Chris

02:54:31 identity of those on the call Chris Naylor being the on duty lag L John baradell John BR and Mark Sawyer um I think that it was an obvious um choice and they were right

02:54:46 obvious um choice and they were right absolutely right to seek to explore whether um the choice should be made and you say in your statement at paragraph 32 page um six there's no need to go to

02:54:57 32 page um six there's no need to go to it that at that stage no one seemed to envisage an escalation in the response of local government that is that correct that is

02:55:05 that is correct and I think you say you could have escalated your response and asked colleagues from other Burrows to take charge on behalf of London barrows as a whole but essentially you chose not to

02:55:17 whole but essentially you chose not to do so correct that stage correct and was that because you thought that the two colleagues coming from souk uh and the offer of the commer team was enough well and Mark Sawyer and people from Hammer

02:55:30 and Mark Sawyer and people from Hammer Smith uh helping at the reception Center or the Beck or both and other arrangements of which I might not have been um aware and which management

02:55:41 been um aware and which management colleagues were completely at Liberty to adopt so again it was absolutely not a case of RB KC managing all on its own but of trying to fill out where they

02:55:52 but of trying to fill out where they needed to do so did you have any further telephone conversation with John baradel that evening I don't believe so now I just want to look at two other limbs of

02:56:03 just want to look at two other limbs of support and the circumstances in which they were provided first John baradel tells us in his first witness statement of the inquiry that it was agreed during this call the 1730 call on the 14th of June that he and Elena Kelly who was as

02:56:17 June that he and Elena Kelly who was as we know from sou would provide support or peer support to you that doesn't appear to have been mentioned in the post meeting prey other than that souc would send two

02:56:29 prey other than that souc would send two senior

02:56:30 senior officers is that right um I don't well what he might be referring to is that I think either implicitly or explicitly it

02:56:43 think either implicitly or explicitly it was agreed that there would be a very similar phone call on Thursday and that he said entually um Again by implication there would be tabs kept um

02:56:55 implication there would be tabs kept um with sufficient frequency to be able to react if the if the situation appeared to have changed and and I was entirely in accord and welcomed that and how would the peer support be given if it

02:57:07 would the peer support be given if it was offered did you understand at the time um well I think the phone call and as it were the the searching uh compensation taking place on that phone

02:57:18 compensation taking place on that phone call would probably tell elanar and John whether there was a a problem that required me to be persuaded to invoke London Gold what peer support was provided to you if any During the period

02:57:29 provided to you if any During the period between this call at 5:30 on the evening of the 14th and the activation of the gold resolution uh on the 16th of June um well first of all I would say that

02:57:41 um well first of all I would say that the London Gold was activated on the evening of the 15th of June all right but another matter um I think that what I what I could have done and I'm sure

02:57:52 I what I could have done and I'm sure what I should have done is what I did do the following week which was to invite an experienced local Authority chief executive colleague to come and um as it were be in the room at all times and

02:58:05 were be in the room at all times and helped me to do the role that I was then assigned to do and uh Barry Quirk who of course took over from me turned up on I think either the Monday or the Tuesday of the following week I could have done

02:58:16 of the following week I could have done such a thing uh the previous week and that would have probably helped and the second Lim of support um um relates to what I think is called um the afterall

02:58:30 what I think is called um the afterall note uh which was that Mark Sawyer would Le a with rbkc to detail the support and provide initial support on structures needs and experience of previous events what were those discussed

02:58:43 what were those discussed afterwards um well it says you would discuss with rbkc tomorrow morning yes did he and yes he came to the council and um I I wouldn't be able to recount individual conversations to you but he

02:58:55 individual conversations to you but he was invaluable on the uh on the Thursday thank you Mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes I think it is thank you very much well Mr Hellgate it's time we all

02:59:06 much well Mr Hellgate it's time we all had a break get some lunch so we'll stop there we'll resume please at 2:00 and as before please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while they're out of the room right thank you very much would you

02:59:17 room right thank you very much would you care to give the Usher

02:59:28 please thank you very much Mr milet 2 o'clock please