Grenfell Tower Inquiry - Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea Evidence - Wednesday 4th May 2022 (2/2)
00:00:25 could you ask us johnson to come back in please
00:00:40 all right miss johnson ready to carry on yes that's good thank you yes mr keaton mr chairman i'm going to move on to a separate topic please miss johnson which is staff
00:00:51 please miss johnson which is staff visits to hotels something you referred to a couple of times this morning in relation to staff visits or bkc staff visits were they housing officers or social workers a combination of both
00:01:04 or social workers a combination of both or was it just housing officers on the thursday after the fire it was just housing officers okay so let's deal with that on the 15th of june thursday and housing officers being sent to
00:01:16 and housing officers being sent to hotels
00:01:18 hotels and you mentioned before that was there were tasks to check on residents was that
00:01:24 was that to assess their needs for short and long-term housing or was it a welfare check it was more of a welfare check really to be honest just to see how they were
00:01:36 be honest just to see how they were and to ask if they if they needed anything
00:01:39 anything if we were missing any information on the family composition then we could have taken it at that time but people were rehoused it well offered emergency accommodation in a very
00:01:50 emergency accommodation in a very difficult circumstances so it was an opportunity just to see how people were perhaps we could open your first statement please ob case triple zero three five five nine two
00:02:01 triple zero three five five nine two at paragraph 67 please
00:02:15 and we see there
00:02:20 i arrived at town hall on the 16th we had a morning briefing with senior officers from the housing team feedback from officers was that many families weren't in their rooms when officers attended on the 15th of june so it
00:02:31 attended on the 15th of june so it wasn't a very successful endeavor we put a letter under their door saying we'd come to see them and how to contact us if they were not in is that correct yes
00:02:45 [Applause] according to amanda gill your colleague in her statement prior to all bkc officers being deployed on the 15th to june to attend holidays
00:02:57 on the 15th to june to attend holidays and the council was made aware that residents of grenville had called a meeting for that afternoon at rugby portobello club and actually had requested or bkc to attend so in relation to that so that there was
00:03:09 so in relation to that so that there was a view to send housing officers out to the hotels to do a welfare check as you described it but you also who was made aware in the housing department that there was a
00:03:20 housing department that there was a meeting going on at the rugby portobello club
00:03:23 club was consideration given to the likely unavailability of a number of residents before officers were sent to the hotels uh yes which is why we
00:03:34 uh yes which is why we gave people uh well why we sent them with a letter to slide underneath the door i'm not sure i related the two events together to be honest with you at the time
00:03:43 the time of the meeting of residents of rugby portobello and people not being in their rooms
00:03:51 in relation to the letter a number of residents
00:03:55 residents and have who've provided evidence refer to not receiving any such letter under their door are you
00:04:03 are you confident that letters were placed under all of the doors of the residents who were placed in hotels
00:04:10 hotels um
00:04:11 um i said we put a letter under the door and if my colleagues said they put end letter under the door then i have no reason to think that they didn't well we'll turn that in in due course
00:04:23 well we'll turn that in in due course we've heard that this borough and north kensington was rich in diversity and was the letter that was provided in advance and translated
00:04:35 was provided in advance and translated into various languages spoken by residents from that locality um i don't believe so i believe it was just in english
00:04:44 so in relation to what we just read about
00:04:47 about the feedback that this was not a very successful endeavor to make contact with those affected residents placed in hotels
00:04:54 hotels was there further attempts by rbkc to visit the residence after the 15th of june
00:05:00 june um i was only responsible for the operation up until sunday there's seven sunday the 18th so i don't know if there was any further attempts made after
00:05:11 was any further attempts made after that weekend okay so we were talking about thursday the 15th yeah so there wasn't on the friday or on the saturday okay
00:05:19 okay and on a sunday you say that i was stood down from being in charge of the operation
00:05:26 so for that period if somebody wasn't met or seen or contacted face-to-face on the 15th of june
00:05:34 june it was unlikely that there was any contacts on the 16th or 17th unless they contacted us or less we were aware that they wish to speak to us
00:05:53 to turn to you talked about placement of hotels looking at all bkc and surrounding boroughs and one of those boroughs of course neighboring
00:06:04 of those boroughs of course neighboring borough was the london borough of hammersmith and fulham isn't that correct yes and
00:06:09 and displaced residents from orbkc were placed in hotels in that borough isn't that correct yes and kim
00:06:19 and kim smith who is the chief executive and still is chief executive the london birth hammersmith fulham um in our evidence which are going to summarize she's provided a statement of inquiry
00:06:29 inquiry she became aware on the 16th of june 2017 that displaced all bkc residents had been placed in their borough and we'll see in a moment in an email concerns were raised with her regarding
00:06:41 concerns were raised with her regarding a particular grenfell tower displaced residents who needed support and that reference is lbh
00:06:49 701 paragraph 63. in relation to all bkc residents placed in the london borough of hammersmith in fulham can you recall
00:07:01 hammersmith in fulham can you recall whether actually hammersmith film were informed residents had been placed in their borough in hotels in that borough
00:07:11 borough um i did not tell uh london birth hammersmith in fulham that we had placed people in their borough but we were part of a
00:07:19 of a tri-borough arrangement yes so rbkc had a number of linked services with hammersmith in fulham and westminster city council and so although i hadn't
00:07:30 city council and so although i hadn't taken responsibility for contacting hammersmith and fulham to let them know um
00:07:35 um hammersmith and fulham may have known because of the links with adult social care which was a tri-borough service i believe
00:07:43 believe in relation to housing that was solely or bkc it was a sovereign service housing was a single borough service adult social care and children's services were both tri-borough services
00:07:55 services were both tri-borough services and social workers at this point by the 15th we're starting to be mobilized to make links with people who've been placed in accommodation well let's move to rbk
00:08:07 well let's move to rbk triple zero two one eight nine seven please
00:08:11 please and
00:08:13 and the bottom of the thread at page 2
00:08:17 hopefully
00:08:29 okay
00:08:33 so we see jerry crowe crawley the property in place manager at lb london bureau of hammersmith an email to kim deal kim smith um who got married and others on the
00:08:45 um who got married and others on the 19th of june 2017 at
00:08:49 at if we read we could go down please thank you
00:08:57 we've been in touch with kensington and chelsea this morning and i can confirm they've placed tenants from grenville tower
00:09:02 tower in a total of 26 commercial hotels which three are located in the following harrison in the film hotels and then they're listed
00:09:11 if we move down to in the meantime that paragraph we've visited all three hotels today
00:09:20 and spoken with hotel management tenants and support staff the date is the 19th of june five days later so we visit all three hotels today and spun with hotel management tenants and
00:09:31 spun with hotel management tenants and support staff we've found inconsistent levels of service being provided to tenants at hotels for example the families that ibis have an open tab regardless of food and bar holly and
00:09:42 regardless of food and bar holly and family has been provided with 500 pounds and have access to brick breakfast my main concern is for the tenants residing at premier inn in hammersmith there are 12 families who had not been contacted
00:09:53 had not been contacted by kensington chelsea since placement almost six days ago we were the first to visit them at the hotel they have no idea regarding what happens next they've not been provided
00:10:04 happens next they've not been provided contact details for kensington chelsea they receive two meals per day breakfast and dinner but not have not received any cash
00:10:13 cash subsistence
00:10:16 so in relation to that's in those 12 families which were placed in hammersmith smithy hammersmith and
00:10:25 fulham forgive me do you accept that six days later they haven't been contacted are visited by or bkc yes
00:10:37 [Applause] accepting your involvement and responsibility in terms of controlling certain matters changed on the sunday of that week sunday of the earlier week
00:10:50 of that week sunday of the earlier week which would be in the 18th of june this is the 19th of june but can you explain how this occurred how so many days had passed and how those people were left with no support
00:11:03 i don't know what day they were placed so this email indicates they were placed on the 14th um
00:11:09 um if they were there we would have attempted to visit them on the 16th
00:11:15 16th or the 15th if they weren't there then we would have hopefully put a letter underneath the door although i don't have an audit trail to say how many letters were put in put under
00:11:27 in put under um and then friday and saturday my officers did not then do another phone around nor did they not do a visit of people in those hotels i can't comment on what happened
00:11:38 hotels i can't comment on what happened from the sunday afternoon so in relation to the leaflet it's it stays here in stark terms they've not been provided contact details for kensington and chelsea which
00:11:50 details for kensington and chelsea which suggests no leaflet was put placed placed underneath the door yes it does it suggests quite strongly and i have no reason not to believe it that those families were placed and then
00:12:01 that those families were placed and then they hadn't heard from us again and they had not contacted us either
00:12:10 just the last part and they had not contacted us either what makes you say that uh because they said they had had no contact with kensington and chelsea so i would presume that if they had spoken to
00:12:21 presume that if they had spoken to kensington and chelsea that they had phoned us then they would have relayed that message back to the people from hammersmith and fulham to let them know that they had actually spoken to knc and were aware of the payments we were
00:12:33 were aware of the payments we were making and or how long they would be able to stay in that particular hotel and he acknowledged that this shouldn't have happened and it was leaving these families in this position was
00:12:44 families in this position was unacceptable yes i acknowledge it must have been extremely difficult for those families to be left in that state of limbo not knowing what was going to take place next
00:12:55 was going to take place next abandon is a word inquiries heard to describe how those placed in hotels felt
00:13:01 felt do you accept both at hotels within the borough and outside the borough that communication and contact with those people in hotels was
00:13:12 was deficient
00:13:14 deficient yes i acknowledge that we could have done more to contact those families in those hotels to make sure that um they knew what was taking place um
00:13:25 um as i said it was a very pressurized environment with people constantly approaching and it's constantly booking and perhaps we didn't give enough attention not perhaps we didn't give enough attention to the people who are
00:13:36 enough attention to the people who are being placed and giving them information and updates about what they could expect thank you i'm going to move on to another sub-topic which is the provision of food
00:13:49 of food once residents were placed in hotels you set out in your statement at paragraph 84 that obkc had an arrangement with some hotels which gave either full board half board or just breakfast to the
00:14:01 half board or just breakfast to the residents that were staying there is that correct yes it depended on the services that that hotel provided yes but there was an effort to provide food when there was a placement mate if there
00:14:12 when there was a placement mate if there was if the hotel provided food then we asked the hotel to provide food to the residents that have been placed there but obviously lots of hotels are only provide limited services
00:14:23 provide limited services and in relation to dietary requirements of residents bear in mind as i said a rich
00:14:27 rich diversity of the area of north kensington we're dealing with and the time of year it was during ramadan and was there any arrangements with those hotels for specific and religious dietary
00:14:39 specific and religious dietary requirements um i don't remember us making that specific request when we were booking the hotels on the 14th of june we were very aware
00:14:50 on the 14th of june we were very aware of the wide cultural diversity in grenfell and we knew that a lot of people
00:14:55 people of course
00:14:56 of course were fasting at that time to be honest i don't remember what we said to those hotels at that point in time about dietary requirements but we were aware that not all hotels would be able to provide
00:15:08 not all hotels would be able to provide a full board service nor would they be able to provide food that necessarily people wanted to eat you know people have a wide um
00:15:18 um you know kind of wide dietary requirements and likes and dislikes um and children of course eat at different times and want to eat earlier so that's why we started to mobilize very quickly trying to provide people
00:15:30 very quickly trying to provide people with money in order so that they could both
00:15:34 both feed you know go out and and get food for themselves but also you know kind of buy basic services and needs or bkc in their opening submissions to this module of inquiry have stated that
00:15:45 this module of inquiry have stated that quote the council admits that it should have done more in the immediate aftermath to make people from diverse backgrounds feel as comfortable as possible in particular muslim residents who were observing ramadan at the time
00:15:56 who were observing ramadan at the time the council acknowledges that many survivors who stayed in hotels were not provided with halal food and do you accept that yes we would have been reliant on the hotels in order to be able to make that
00:16:08 in order to be able to make that provision and if they couldn't make that provision then unfortunately those people wouldn't have been able to receive the uh receive the food that they wanted and you've provided and exhibited a
00:16:19 and you've provided and exhibited a spreadsheet in your statement lg 26 we don't need to look at it as obk quadruple zero one eight five eight and that shows the arrangements with hotels which were in place as of the 18th of
00:16:31 which were in place as of the 18th of june
00:16:33 june and it shows that of the 15 hotels named only four provided breakfast lunch and dinner
00:16:40 dinner and five
00:16:41 and five provide a breakfast and dinner so there was a reasonable proportion which were limited in what they could provide and again
00:16:49 and again you accept that that was the best you can do in terms of the hotels yes available
00:16:53 available better to get a room in a hotel than not to get a room um and if they provided full board that was great but if they didn't then it was just best to get room so in relation to those which are
00:17:05 room so in relation to those which are not full board you mentioned that there was a need and a recognition for financial support to allow those who were in those hotels to be able to purchase food for themselves yes
00:17:18 purchase food for themselves yes i'm very aware and i've worked in the field of social housing for a very long time
00:17:23 time i've always done this job because i've wanted to help people to provide good quality accommodation on low incomes and i'm very aware of how people live from
00:17:34 i'm very aware of how people live from you know live on very low incomes and it's very difficult to manage your budget and i know that people will have left grenfell and they won't have had any money in their own bank accounts and will have lived from
00:17:45 will have lived from paycheck to paycheck or from you know kind of benefit to benefit and people do eek out their meals on the basis of that they have bought enough to last the week and there is no way that they can afford
00:17:56 and there is no way that they can afford something different to that and that's just in the normal course of events so if you have something like this where you have a disaster and where people
00:18:03 people can no longer no longer access their own food and no longer and don't have any money and can't go to work then it's important that we provided them with a financial resource so that they could
00:18:15 resource so that they could you know kind of provide uh food for themselves obviously it's very difficult in hotels because they don't as a rule have cooking facilities so you know kind of the longer that goes on the more difficult it becomes for people staying
00:18:28 difficult it becomes for people staying there in order to be able to eat the food that they want without being having to rely on restaurants or takeaway services which nobody wants to do in the longer term well i'm going to focus if i may just
00:18:39 well i'm going to focus if i may just the short term and the immediate aftermath we've heard about the longer term
00:18:44 term difficulties and experiences of
00:18:47 of those who are bereaved survivors and residents in evidence earlier on in this module
00:18:52 module so in relation to financial assistance and you mentioned a paragraph 84 of your statement which i'll summarize again and i'll read to you a few accepts we
00:19:03 and i'll read to you a few accepts we arranged money for those households to buy meals which were not provided there was a policy established and what food people could have in hotels and what they could get money for there was a generous food allowance per household
00:19:16 generous food allowance per household so in relation to this policy which you refer to a paragraph 84 of your statement do you recall when that policy was put in place no it would have been it was very quickly um put in place
00:19:28 quickly um put in place um but i can't remember whether it was on the 14th or 15th it was a discussion that took place uh with gold group or it may have taken place with finance colleagues about how we were to distribute cash and how we
00:19:40 we were to distribute cash and how we were to to give people money so they could make provision for themselves so we'd
00:19:46 so we'd explore the different types of hotels and
00:19:49 and some had less facilities in terms of food available and you've recognized the need for financial support and you've mentioned their arrangements which we'll explore in a little bit more detail
00:20:00 in a little bit more detail but do you accept that in the first seven days that which we're exploring is that numerous residents were still left without sufficient food or funds in
00:20:11 without sufficient food or funds in those hotels um if the pho if the hotel didn't have full board and the residents didn't know about the financial provisions being made then yes they would have found that difficult
00:20:26 another theme which emerges from the evidence we've heard from those who are in those hotels and experienced matters in the first seven days is that
00:20:37 matters in the first seven days is that many were unaware of what was available to them at hotels do you consider that there was an issue regarding communicating what was available to them at the hotels
00:20:51 um yes i mean i i suppose i would have expected
00:20:56 expected people in the hotels to ask the hotels what was available to them and being given that advice and information um
00:21:03 um bearing in mind that we place people into hotels on the 14th and 15th very quickly we probably didn't have the information of a full suite of information available to us to to give cust to give you know
00:21:14 us to to give cust to give you know people that uh break down but
00:21:18 but i i completely accept the fact there was a failure of communication for us to follow that up with people placed in the hotels
00:21:25 hotels about exactly what was available and exactly what they could have okay let's look at all bk quadruple zero nine seven nine nine please
00:21:37 please i'm gonna invite us to turn to page two please and it's an email at 1808 on the 17th of june so may need to scroll down a little bit
00:21:55 okay set
00:22:00 1808 so it's the bottom of that page do we have that if we could is that page two that's it so we see fergus coleman 17 to june 1808
00:22:14 and
00:22:16 he is of hos is that housing office staff what would hos stand for yes something along those lines and levy's head of affordable and
00:22:27 and levy's head of affordable and private sector housing wcc so he's westminster city council so it's likely to stand for housing options service okay
00:22:35 okay in-housing westminster we got the dates we got the time 17th of june which is the saturday
00:22:45 and it's an update provided by him and i want to just draw out a few things from the latest update at 1745
00:22:56 they're doing this update is derived from assessments which have been undertaken and those must be assessments for accommodation is that correct temporary accommodation i don't know
00:23:08 temporary accommodation i don't know because i wasn't copied into this email no but i'm going to ask you to use your expertise for being 20 years in this field to help me in the environment that there was
00:23:18 there was haas staff undertaking assessments and is it likely that these assessments were relation to temporary accommodation um
00:23:27 um yes i can only presume that because this is the first time i've seen of course and that's in fairness to you let's let's look at a document and you can familiarize yourself with it the last bullet points hos officers have reported that
00:23:39 hos officers have reported that experience of doing the assessments has been very distressing i think turnover leave please top bullet points feedback from officers returning from assessments is that many of the
00:23:50 from assessments is that many of the residents are very distressed some have had no food or water have no funds others have been told that their hotel booking expires after today and they have not confirmation that they can
00:24:03 they have not confirmation that they can stay after tomorrow in bold from the feedback i'm receiving i would strongly recommend that there needs to be welfare support officers on site at the various hotels to offer
00:24:14 site at the various hotels to offer guidance and reassurance and to deal with immediate welfare needs not just
00:24:20 not just housing needs due to the distressed nature of some of the residents the quality of information being gathered to assess housing need is lacking so you weren't copied in on that
00:24:33 lacking so you weren't copied in on that document there but to give you the opportunity to familiarize yourself and as we perhaps thought at the beginning likely that housing assessments are being undertaken and this is the feedback from those officers
00:24:44 this is the feedback from those officers undertaking those housing assessments correct yes
00:24:52 was this something that you were aware of on the 17th of june these concerns being expressed in relation to grenville residents when housing assessments have been taken place no [Music]
00:25:08 i want us to turn to another email please or bk quadruple zero two seven three five which we touched upon earlier from recollection
00:25:25 this is an email we dealt with lower down in the thread and at the if we look at the center where it says andrew carter
00:25:34 carter saturday
00:25:35 saturday 17th of june 7 59 pm so just before 8pm
00:25:43 and you are copied into this email and
00:25:48 and we dealt with a thread earlier on but this is the next matter which is mentioned that threat many thanks mr hassani has also reported he hasn't eaten in three days there's been suggestions from a few people that
00:25:59 suggestions from a few people that breakfast is available at the hotels but no other meals just a suggestion but is it worth contacting the hotels to confirm if other meals are available and will be covered
00:26:13 and then amanda gill ferdopner thread asks to contact a number to speak to the sender of that email andrew carter
00:26:24 the sender of that email andrew carter again were you aware of these matters this is on the 18th of june
00:26:30 uh the 17th of ju this is from saturday the 17th of june so um
00:26:35 um correct saturday 70 to june and the response from amanda gill is on the morning sunday morning at 10 11.
00:26:43 at 10 11. um on saturday i was in um either in westminster meeting with barbara brownlee who was my equivalent in westminster
00:26:54 my equivalent in westminster who had also been asked to mobilize housing officers to go out and undertake those welfare checks i was copied into this email on saturday evening so it is very likely
00:27:06 on saturday evening so it is very likely that i saw it but i was still at westminster still till quite late so i'm not sure whether i read it on saturday evening and on sunday morning
00:27:17 and on sunday morning i very likely saw it but i but i don't remember to be honest with you and i would have taken from the fact that amanda saw that email that she was going to call andrew and to and to address that issue
00:27:29 that issue so just drawing this together we've seen specific
00:27:33 emails from colleagues from the tri borough one from lbhf one from westminster city council independently arriving at concerns
00:27:45 independently arriving at concerns regarding
00:27:46 regarding food
00:27:47 food welfare
00:27:48 welfare communication with those who are placed in those hotels
00:27:53 hotels between four and six days after
00:27:56 after events on the 14th of june would you accept that this is stark illustration that something had gone significantly wrong in the care that should have been provided to those in emergency
00:28:08 provided to those in emergency accommodation i would say in certain instances there was definitely clearly a case that something had gone awfully wrong that those people hadn't been provided with the food and or
00:28:21 the food and or that they so desperately needed and i'm to be honest with you horrified to read now that people were left in that situation because i just didn't imagine for a moment that that was actually taking place um i thought we'd be very
00:28:33 taking place um i thought we'd be very clear with the hotels about what they what people could and couldn't have which we were booked in and expected that to be able to communicate to the people that we had we had placed there um
00:28:45 um i i completely accept there was a there was a lack of communication by rbc to the people placed in hotels but it was very difficult circumstances and undoubtedly
00:28:56 and undoubtedly i can only say we should have done better
00:28:59 better you mentioned that you're horrified you mentioned certain incidences this occurred and i suggest that this was a pattern
00:29:08 a pattern not an isolated case where it went horribly wrong isn't that correct i can't
00:29:15 i can't concur that from these from these emails that you have in front of me
00:29:23 i've given you the opportunity to respond i'm going to move on now to the provision of financial support
00:29:33 you've mentioned in your evidence that obk staff
00:29:36 obk staff were providing financial assistance from the outset and perhaps we could read paragraph 86 of your witness statement which is obk triple zero three five five nine two
00:29:56 and we read paragraph 86 yes
00:30:00 yes so this is what it says on the 14th of june housing officers started to give people money early in the day housing were the main point of contact so it made sense for housing officers to take care of this from the beginning you mentioned how your team were given
00:30:12 you mentioned how your team were given cash
00:30:13 cash and you were very aware that people would have no money on their person or limited access to funds and you mentioned putting in a place a policy that each household was to receive 500 pounds for emergency funds
00:30:26 receive 500 pounds for emergency funds in cash
00:30:29 and then from the 15th of june at westwood there was a facility to hand out more cash i do not know the full details of the policy from the 15th onwards
00:30:40 the policy from the 15th onwards can you help us in relation to that was that the case that was initial policy of 500 pounds and then you're not really sure what happened from the 15th of june so there was initial in in terms of what happened on the 14th
00:30:51 happened on the 14th i believe the team went up with enough cash to give people uh who were presenting to us a small sum of money 50 pounds so that they had something um and then um
00:31:04 something um and then um and then it was discussed and i believe it's mentioned in uh the minutes of the meeting that they were to make available fifteen hundred pound f five hundred pounds for emergency
00:31:15 f five hundred pounds for emergency funds cash being the easiest way to do that for people who may not have a bank account may not have any of their cards um
00:31:23 um or have any documentation to be to be able to access any of those facilities that they may have and so people presenting at the west way or coming to the west way were able to be given that sum of money
00:31:36 were able to be given that sum of money and people were able to hand and finance were arranging for that amount of money to be delivered to the west way and then people to be able to give and given that money but i to be honest with you i don't really know what happened after that it was just how can we make sure
00:31:49 that it was just how can we make sure that people have some money in order to be able to buy the essentials for the first couple of days and then afterwards it's not a housing department issue it's a wider corporate issue of how we provide
00:31:59 provide to help people in those in those early days
00:32:04 if we could look at rbk triple zero four seven five seven six please
00:32:10 this is an email sent on the 15th of june at 1826.
00:32:16 you can see at the top
00:32:20 it's forwarded by amanda johnson to herself so we can focus down on the the email just below that from daniel smith if you could scroll thank you
00:32:31 smith if you could scroll thank you and that's that's because that's it 1826 forgive me and you are in the body of recipients laura johnson
00:32:41 so in the on the evening of the 15th of june we've arranged for an out of hour service for any urgently required cash collections that cannot wait until tomorrow
00:32:50 tomorrow the cashiers have already prepared batches of 500 pound ready for collection
00:32:59 and it talks about alteration for authorization forms and
00:33:05 and in essence it appears to be that the money would be available from the 16th of june at the west way is that that would appear to be the case
00:33:16 is that that would appear to be the case yes okay
00:33:25 in relation to there's a reference in the email we just looked at which talks about a list of flat numbers right in the middle there when we're just
00:33:35 just talking about batches of 500 pounds it talks about lists of flat numbers flat numbers it would one would assume relating to grenville tower is that correct i believe so
00:33:46 tower is that correct i believe so can you help with
00:33:49 with this issue was financial assistance initially limited to those living in grenville tower and not
00:33:57 and not including walkway residents i don't remember to be honest
00:34:14 we could turn to obk triple zero two seven seven three five please
00:34:31 the document we've seen already this is the grenville residence action plan
00:34:36 plan from your meeting on the 15th of june 2017 an internal document would you refer to in your statement of paragraph 51 what if we could scroll down please to page two and we'll see
00:34:48 down please to page two and we'll see finance
00:34:52 it says here households to be given cash to cover living expenses finance currently with corporate finance their range for cash to be made available potential allocation of 1 000 per
00:35:03 per household
00:35:06 so drawing it together there's fragments of information trying to assist you when the policy was devised and implemented
00:35:18 it appears probably implementation more likely on the 16th of june is that fair it does appear to be the case here and in terms of
00:35:29 and in terms of criteria was there a criteria for allocating money
00:35:34 money um i don't remember to be honest with you i'd have to see evidence of that to to jog my memory okay in relation to the inclusion or exclusion of those who are
00:35:45 inclusion or exclusion of those who are walkway residents in those first few days
00:35:49 days 14 or 15.
00:35:51 14 or 15. just going to read a couple of examples and see if this assists your recollection as to um whether that body of residence was excluded
00:36:02 of residence was excluded hisham shabika in his statement iws quadruple 01305 paragraph 76-78 says this he's a walkway resident we bumped into a council worker a lady
00:36:14 we bumped into a council worker a lady who just finished work for the day and i explained to her that we'd ran out of money
00:36:19 money on the card and i could not feed my kids she said if i needed money she could give me some out of her own pockets but i told her that i wanted what i was entitled to i didn't want to take her own money from her that was right that wasn't right
00:36:33 her that was right that wasn't right the implication was that he wasn't able to get any financial assistance formally from the council at that stage i want to give you another example please and this is an example not from
00:36:44 please and this is an example not from a bereaved survivor residence but an example from one of your colleagues subordinates and fans and venice augustine
00:36:53 augustine and she's provided a statement of inquiry
00:36:56 inquiry and at the time of the fire miss augustine was a homeless team manager which we referred to before when we're referring to one of the plans at the outset of this questioning
00:37:08 questioning perhaps we could um open up her statement please or bk triple zero three five four one one please
00:37:19 paragraph 30 please
00:37:32 so this is on the it's on the 15th of june
00:37:35 june we can see from surrounding evidence and she says this these are doing the checks whilst at the holiday inn i visited an 87 year old lady from the walkways who was
00:37:46 lady from the walkways who was distressed she did not have her purse with her and therefore had no access to money and could not buy food the holiday inn only provided breakfast without staying there and therefore
00:37:57 without staying there and therefore would be necessary for them to purchase food
00:37:59 food i went to a cash points and withdrew some money from my own personal account to give to her i cannot remember how much i gave her and one of the social workers then spent some time speaking with her by the end of the visit the
00:38:11 with her by the end of the visit the lady seemed to be calmer and some of her concerns had been delayed and i also contacted social services to inform them about this lady
00:38:22 inform them about this lady was this something that one of your housing team members raised with you that there was an elderly walkway resident without financial support in a hotel in the 15th of june
00:38:33 support in a hotel in the 15th of june i don't remember that being raised with me directly it may well have been but i don't remember would you
00:38:40 would you acknowledge and agree that would be a matter of
00:38:43 matter of real concern yes
00:38:49 can you assist with what the process if any in communicating that financial assistance was available to those effectives on the 14 15 16 and 17th of june
00:39:01 17th of june uh
00:39:01 uh no the financial assistance was being developed and i cannot i cannot remember what the process was for letting people know that
00:39:12 process was for letting people know that there was financial assistance available to them
00:39:15 to them as i said it was a very fast-moving situation and people were being assigned social workers and welfare workers and i can only presume now as a matter of hindsight that that information was
00:39:27 of hindsight that that information was relayed through that means but there wasn't a written communication nor a social media communication sent out by the housing department to inform them of what financial assistance that there may be available to them
00:39:39 that there may be available to them so in terms of presumptions and assumptions for you mentioned being a fluid situation it would only be if somebody had spoken to housing officer
00:39:51 somebody had spoken to housing officer who visited them on the 15th of june or
00:39:56 or word of mouth quite frankly that's the only way they would have found out yes i i was not in charge of sending out information about the financial assistance that we were giving what i was advising of was the financial
00:40:08 was advising of was the financial assistance we gave people on the 14th is an immediate cash sum and then talking to the finance department about what people needed as an emergency amount of money to tide them over until more formal arrangements
00:40:19 them over until more formal arrangements could be made but no i was not responsible for communicating nor did i communicate or instruct anyone to communicate from rbkc exactly what the financial arrangements that were being developed were to the people who were
00:40:31 developed were to the people who were staying in the hotels and it
00:40:35 and it flows from what you have just said that there's probably agreement with the next question but obc in their opening submissions again to this module state that the council fails to provide
00:40:47 state that the council fails to provide the public with clear consistent communications after the fire as a result individual residents missed out on receiving support to which they were titled
00:40:57 titled in relation to that do you accept that this was a fundamental failing in relation to the council yes i accept the council's opening statement and the way it has been phrased
00:41:14 to deal with a discreet but important issue which is residents which were discharged from hospitals a number of residents
00:41:23 residents were in hospital and then in the passing days some of those were discharged with nowhere to go and
00:41:31 and i want to turn to an email or bk quadruple zero one zero two six please send its email data to 14 to june at the outset
00:41:41 outset at 07.41
00:41:45 and we've touched upon this already and i just wanted to revisit the third part of that email that you sent at 741 to your colleagues
00:41:57 at 741 to your colleagues we are setting up a protocol for those people in hospital who will be discharged and needs to be re-housed
00:42:04 re-housed correct
00:42:06 correct yes that's what i said and there's a recognition at that stage that there needs to be some system in place to ensure that those vulnerable individuals by the very nature that they're in hospital don't
00:42:18 nature that they're in hospital don't get missed is that correct that's correct yes and can you assist with what the protocol was for people being discharged from hospital no i think that statement was drawn from
00:42:29 no i think that statement was drawn from i was obviously sitting in the back at that point and had probably had a conversation with my colleagues in adult social care about where the responsibility lay for
00:42:40 about where the responsibility lay for what we did i'm not aware that the housing department ever actually set up a protocol
00:42:45 protocol for what happened for people who were being discharged from hospital from recollection i believe adult social care took that on board as something that they
00:42:55 that they then
00:42:56 then they would then liaise with the hospitals about and about all hospitals have social workers um and it would be um for them to to liaise with the social workers in the hospitals about
00:43:07 workers in the hospitals about what we did uh when people were discharged but we ourselves my i or no my team i don't believe set up a drafted a protocol for people being discharged from hospital well let's look at paragraph 37 of your statement please
00:43:20 paragraph 37 of your statement please that's rbk triple zero three five five nine two
00:43:26 just to draw out what you've said
00:43:32 you say the protocol
00:43:38 for people being discharged from hospital
00:43:40 hospital so paragraph just ensure that we're all in the same 37 please could we just go over leave thank you bottom of page 9. thank you very much
00:43:49 very much the protocol for people being discharged from hospitals organized through adult social care and family and children's services
00:43:55 services which you just said a few moments ago they had social workers at hospital delays to liaison to hospital families and what housing and or support they needed when they're due to be discharged
00:44:07 discharged asc adult social care would then make this information available to housing we would then arrange for them to be placed in hotels so in short
00:44:18 so in short the protocol was that asc would do that first contact and they would inform you that there was somebody who has been discharged and then that you would arrange a placement in hotels
00:44:31 arrange a placement in hotels that was my belief that that was the situation that was was going to take place um
00:44:37 place um did that work is that what happened i can't remember to be honest with you okay let's try and help your memory
00:44:45 suggest give your suggestions so that you can have that in mind when we're working through the documentation i'm going to suggest that there was some confusion and a lack of communication
00:44:56 and a lack of communication between your department and asc regarding the procedures for providing housing for those discharged so i don't expect an answer now i'm going to try and assist your
00:45:07 going to try and assist your recollection by looking at some documentation let's look at rbk quadruple zero six seven four five
00:45:21 this is an email on the 16th of june at 1957.
00:45:30 amanda johnson you were not copied in
00:45:36 dearbek it would be good if we know about any people being potentially discharged from hospital in the short term especially as we enter the weekend so your
00:45:46 so your senior colleague being proactive ascertaining if anybody is going to be discharged correct yes
00:45:55 yes and if we could turn to rbk triple zero one one five eight eights please
00:46:10 the bottom of page one that's probably okay where we are thank you very much this is an email the inquiry scene i think already michelle 17 to june 14 23. so this is the
00:46:23 17 to june 14 23. so this is the saturday the weekend
00:46:28 my understanding from a brief discussion with amanda johnson housing this morning is that anyone who will require accommodation at the time of discharge needs to be flagged with them as soon as possible
00:46:39 possible any information pertaining to family members that will need housing with person for discharge will also be a benefit to housing apparently hospital teams are directly directing those private read
00:46:50 directing those private read disinformation to housing or via asc community liaisons i think it would be helpful for us all to have one directive on this because at the moment there's a number of lists flying around and assumptions
00:47:02 of lists flying around and assumptions about who is doing what our hospital is sending information direct housing or is all information coming to us here at adult social care and we pass it on to housing
00:47:14 to housing rob paul
00:47:17 that's paul hargreaves so you can see in the list recipients are you able to clarify what the message is that housing has given hospitals in terms of this or how
00:47:29 given hospitals in terms of this or how hospital teams are currently working in terms of this matter
00:47:35 two different departments within within or bkc
00:47:40 or bkc not seeking to attribute blame to any particular department here but
00:47:47 but was it the case that information was falling perhaps between the two stools between housing and between asc and some residents were discharged from hospital without all bkc knowing
00:48:00 without all bkc knowing that may well have been the case it was my understanding that adult social care were dealing with it i probably had a discussion with amanda um and we had followed this up but it it sounds from this email that
00:48:11 but it it sounds from this email that there wasn't clarity on who was dealing with the discharge of people leaving hospital and what we were seeking to do was to find to have clarity on that yes we're probably concerned that people
00:48:22 we're probably concerned that people might be discharged over the weekend period
00:48:25 period um and that would be you know more difficult for us to deal with because there wouldn't be such a number of staff available
00:48:33 available as a general observation sue redmond who gave evidence yesterday she was at london borough of hammersmith fulham and she held a pivotal role as the halo the humanitarian assistance
00:48:45 the halo the humanitarian assistance lead officer in those early days and she referred in our evidence to inquiry i said that there was confusion at times in these situations and this was a product of different
00:48:56 and this was a product of different parts of the council operating as silos in relation to that phrase operating in silos was there an issue with different departments
00:49:07 an issue with different departments during this response operating in silos
00:49:13 i think all departments within the council were trying to do their very best in a very difficult circumstances and information uh was shared at the gold meetings that were happening twice a day about what
00:49:26 were happening twice a day about what people were managing with and what help that they needed so yes people were operating on their own initiative doing their own thing but there was an opportunity twice a day to
00:49:37 there was an opportunity twice a day to come together and talk about those problems and or we were all available to each other in that i knew c redmond i was sitting next to the triborough director of family and children's
00:49:48 director of family and children's services during this time and so there was an opportunity outside of the meetings to talk to me about any areas that there was fears where there was
00:49:57 was may not have been enough communication on
00:50:00 on i was sitting in an open plan office with on the same floor as adult social care and children's services so although people were all doing their own thing there was plenty of opportunity to come and talk to me or me to talk to my
00:50:11 and talk to me or me to talk to my colleagues about issues that needed to be resolved move on to another topic and we know that on the 16th of june the london local authority gold resolution was was
00:50:22 local authority gold resolution was was activated
00:50:25 and during the evening of the 16th of june you've mentioned a paragraph 77 of your statement and nicholas holgate asked you together with your colleagues amanda gill and rachel dalton to go to
00:50:37 amanda gill and rachel dalton to go to the westminster back to meet with barbara brownley and barbara brownlee was the director of housing a westminister is that correct yes and what do you understand to be the
00:50:49 and what do you understand to be the purpose of that meeting
00:50:53 um i understood we had had a meeting earlier in the day which had been truncated because there had been an invasion of the town hall we were evacuated from the town hall
00:51:04 we were evacuated from the town hall and as i say in my statement it was a terrifying experience
00:51:10 at that meeting we were asked to go and meet barbara brownlee of the view that westminster were to make the housing team available and offer assistance to our bkc which i was more
00:51:22 assistance to our bkc which i was more than happy to accept the more people are better [Music]
00:51:28 [Music] if we scroll down to paragraph 80 please
00:51:35 thank you we're on the 18th of june and it says at this stage this third line i was informed at some point late morning or early afternoon by nicholas hogan i was no longer leading
00:51:46 nicholas hogan i was no longer leading the housing effort and that barbara brownlee would be leading my team is that correct yes so that would be the the sunday as you mentioned you no longer were leading housing efforts
00:51:57 longer were leading housing efforts yes i believe the decision had been taken before that but i wasn't informed until sunday
00:52:08 just going back to that meeting on the 16th of june that evening when you went to the
00:52:15 to the deck
00:52:15 deck at westminster to meet barbara brownley for the first time according to amanda gill and colleague at that meeting with barbara brownlee she or bkc will criticize her response
00:52:29 she or bkc will criticize her response [Music]
00:52:30 [Music] is that correct do you recall that um i
00:52:35 um i i'm sure if amanda recalls that i don't recall it particularly but um yes there was probably a general view that we were we were not uh we were not doing as well as we could and specifically paragraph 51 it was
00:52:48 and specifically paragraph 51 it was relayed back to you and the other attendees
00:52:51 attendees that it was not appropriate to leave residents in hotels over the weekend and that wcc westminster city council would be completing suitability assessments on saturday morning
00:53:05 does that assist your recollection yes i mean
00:53:09 mean we went to westminster on saturday morning to meet barbara and a group of officers at a housing office somewhere in westminster liskem grove somewhere massively inconvenient i have to say
00:53:22 inconvenient i have to say and
00:53:24 and officers were going to be deployed to do assessments of people in their hotels it
00:53:30 hotels it the more people who could help the better to be honest with you the the assessments as i understood it at that point were really as a push from central government in order to be able to re-house everybody within three weeks
00:53:42 to re-house everybody within three weeks so that was the driver behind it not necessarily welfare checks but because um central government had been convinced that it was possible to uh to rehouse all of the people who were
00:53:54 all of the people who were coming out of granville tower survivors um into accommodation within a three-week period and
00:54:02 and you you refer then perhaps for for context to assist everybody there was an announcement is it right on the on the late afternoon at the 16th of june by the prime minister in relation
00:54:13 june by the prime minister in relation to placements housing placements is that correct
00:54:16 correct i believe there was yes you mentioned that there was
00:54:21 a guarantee that people would be rehoused in in three weeks is that correct i believe so yes and in relation to that matter we're i've asked you a number of questions
00:54:32 i've asked you a number of questions today about emergency accommodation and this is a different type of accommodation that's outside the scope of this module but in relation to this point did that
00:54:43 but in relation to this point did that announcement have an impact on the ability of your department to operate yes and can you assist us what that impact was
00:54:55 you assist us what that impact was because the government had made a decision that initially it was going to be two weeks and then they extended it to three weeks that
00:55:04 that all people were going to be made rehousing in three weeks there became all the efforts well large parts of the efforts of the of my team uh were then to be directed towards um
00:55:15 uh were then to be directed towards um assessing the needs of the people in hotels
00:55:19 hotels and the offers that we had received from other housing associations and other councils
00:55:24 councils in order to place those families in that accommodation and it was if i may say an enormous waste of everybody's time and
00:55:35 waste of everybody's time and i
00:55:36 i categorically stated both on the friday to the housing minister when he came to see me and anybody who would listen to me that there was no way that we were going to rehouse everybody who needed rehousing within three weeks because it
00:55:49 rehousing within three weeks because it was not the right approach to take to people who were traumatized and had come out of the most awful situation what they needed was a considered and thoughtful response about what we could
00:56:00 thoughtful response about what we could offer them and where they would like to live people were in absolutely no fit state to make decisions about where they wanted to live and where and what they wanted what they
00:56:11 and where and what they wanted what they needed was a compassioned and considered response what they didn't need was a target from central government that wasn't achievable okay move on if i may to another document or bk triple zero four nine five eight zero
00:56:24 bk triple zero four nine five eight zero please
00:56:30 and this is a an email between your housing team members rob shaw and claire wise on the 17th of june at 703 this would be the morning after the
00:56:43 this would be the morning after the meeting with barbara brownlee i'm gonna just help you with the some of the context if that's okay and read out that email please so it says this amanda laura and rachel
00:56:56 it says this amanda laura and rachel attended a government gold meeting last night
00:56:59 night we've been told westminister are taking over from us because we've been deemed ineffectual yep
00:57:05 yep extremely valid chrism of the or bkc central command however raise it as meeting two don't say anything yet amanda laura and rachel have to head to
00:57:16 laura and rachel have to head to westminster this lunch time so waiting for the official line
00:57:21 line and claire wise
00:57:24 responds maybe an issue regarding the timing so later on in the in the thread
00:57:36 actually it's further up doesn't she forgive me the top of that thread it's valid in some respects but it is shameful that we haven't been supported by london or national services how are
00:57:47 by london or national services how are local authorities expected to have their expertise
00:57:49 expertise there needs to be a centralized control team to be deployed to major incidents to guide local authorities to it fire brigades have it every single person tried their absolute best
00:58:00 person tried their absolute best housing and planning staff should not be coordinating this it needs major expertise frustrating and upsetting i just want to explore
00:58:11 i just want to explore a couple of matters which are opinions expressed by your colleagues do you agree with the opinion that the christians made in relation to rbk
00:58:24 christians made in relation to rbk central command at the meeting you were at were valid
00:58:30 yes in some respects that it was an incredibly difficult situation
00:58:37 situation it was a national disaster
00:58:40 which perhaps when you're in the middle of it you don't really appreciate how big it is
00:58:45 big it is because you are in it trying to deal with it and manage the results from it but of course other people are standing on the outside of it and making very different judgments
00:58:57 and making very different judgments so whereas i can quite understand why people found us to be an effectual all we thought would we had tried our very hardest and we had booked hundreds of hotel rooms and placed people in lots
00:59:08 of hotel rooms and placed people in lots of accommodation um and we were definitely thinking about what the next step was so it felt quite harsh but i can understand um how people drew that conclusion
00:59:21 but it was if i may say it was a national disaster it wasn't an rbkc disaster it was a national disaster and when you were in the middle of that
00:59:32 and when you were in the middle of that it was
00:59:33 it was it was utterly shocking to see how people stepped back from rbkc london gold was enacted which was great but it is a very difficult situation
00:59:44 but it is a very difficult situation when the national government are briefing against you and you just don't know where to turn
00:59:52 what the deal was you described as a national disaster and i want to deal with the final topic which is your assessment of the adequacy of the response by all bkc
01:00:03 bkc and perhaps you could turn to paragraph 89 of your witness statement please
01:00:18 you could scroll down please thank you bottom of page 24. thank you very much
01:00:26 under the heading advocacy of response the emergency planning response by rbkc should have been better it did not adequately meet the needs of either the families whose lives were devastated by the fire or the local community who were also horribly
01:00:37 community who were also horribly affected by the offence of the 14th of june
01:00:43 june in relation to that do you stand by those comments yes you do however i think it should be acknowledged that this was an unprecedented event and i believe any borough faced with managing a response
01:00:54 borough faced with managing a response to a fire of its magnitude and loss of life of this scale would have struggled to provide the level of help and assistance required again
01:01:05 again is that your view yes it is
01:01:10 we could go to paragraph 93 please
01:01:17 put your assessments in complete context
01:01:25 the people so terribly affected by the events of the 14th of june were let down by central government they did not appear to have any emergency planning function to put into place in the event
01:01:36 the event of a disaster such as this again is there anything you want to say in relation to that comment about the involvement of central government
01:01:47 involvement of central government no i think i've set it out very clearly they didn't appear to have any
01:01:53 any any
01:01:54 any emergency planning that they could contribute towards the council with i understood afterwards about london gold but
01:02:03 but at the time the central government's response seemed to be one of asking for figures about how many placements we had made not offering help or assistance
01:02:14 not offering help or assistance i want to revisit a final matter which you mentioned and i asked you that earlier on in the narrative which is at page six of your statement that's paragraph 24.
01:02:26 that's paragraph 24. and it's a view you say that you arrived at after
01:02:30 at after events and not at the time or bkc was not sufficiently prepared to deal with a fire that was so devastating and have such a significant impact
01:02:44 why did you form that opinion
01:02:47 i would say that was fairly self-evident that um
01:02:50 that um i don't think that as i've said at the end of my statement i don't think any local authority was really equipped to prepare with something which was a national disaster and needed to be dealt with on a regional or national basis
01:03:04 with on a regional or national basis it was caught in the eye of a terrible terrible storm and
01:03:09 and it took some time to appraise and assess what had happened and that's very hard to do once you're dealing with events and just trying to cope with an unprecedented level of both media interest
01:03:21 media interest and a highly traumatized community which had just witnessed something that nobody should ever have to see so no i don't think rbkc was sufficiently prepared to deal with the fire of this scale and this disaster i
01:03:33 fire of this scale and this disaster i don't think any local authority would have been able to deal with it that's not to say that it couldn't have been dealt with better at at the time by a local authority like rbkc
01:03:43 rbkc but we just weren't in a position to manage the scale of the of the disaster as it unfolded mrs johnson they're all the questions i have at this stage for you mr chairman
01:03:54 have at this stage for you mr chairman there has been a number of suggested questions which yes welled true that's going to probably be sensible wouldn't it to take the afternoon break at this point anyway yes so uh
01:04:05 so uh as you know we have to have a break at this point so that council can check that nothing's been overlooked and so that others can suggest questions that perhaps we ought to put to you so we'll we'll break now until 20 past
01:04:17 break now until 20 past three and then we'll come back and see if there any more questions that we need to ask you all right thank you and i think as before please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're away all right thank you very much
01:04:37 i think that ought to give you long enough yes if you need more time just let us know we'll do thank you thank you very much
01:20:40 would you ask johnson to come back in please
01:20:44 please [Music]
01:20:54 all right mr johnson well we'll see if there any more questions just one follow-up question ms johnson if i may in relation to when you're talking about the three-week announcement in relation to what your
01:21:05 announcement in relation to what your phrase permanent housing yes or to be placed a follow-on housing follow-ups yeah i want to be precise so in relation to follow on housing and you mentioned in
01:21:17 and you mentioned in in evidence that you thought that was wholly inappropriate in terms of a period of time is that correct yes so we have displaced residents placed in emergency accommodation i.e hotels in
01:21:29 emergency accommodation i.e hotels in those early days we've got this three-week announcement in relation to placing those affected in follow-on housing which you thought was wholly unrealistic what did you consider was the or did you
01:21:41 what did you consider was the or did you consider what the correct interim approach would be
01:21:47 i so
01:21:49 so as i explained earlier in my evidence i'm really aware of how few social housing units there are in rbkc which are available in any one year
01:22:00 are available in any one year i'm even more aware that there's 50 000 people in temporary accommodation in london maybe more now that was five years ago
01:22:08 years ago and there is a huge problem with homelessness and a lack of social housing so i was very aware that there was going to be a very limited number of available housing units to be able to offer people
01:22:20 housing units to be able to offer people who were coming who needed to be rehousing after grenfell
01:22:24 grenfell and i was very aware as well that people didn't just need to be popped in the first
01:22:31 first flat that became available that wasn't the right approach there was um a lot of offers coming in from um from housing associations and
01:22:42 from um from housing associations and other local authorities but whether that would be something that the people who needed re-housing wanted was an entirely different matter and quite rightly they should be given time and space in
01:22:55 they should be given time and space in order to be able to make decisions and i just didn't and couldn't see how people who had been through such an awful traumatic experience could possibly be asked to make a decision
01:23:07 possibly be asked to make a decision about where they wanted to live or what type of housing they wanted to live in in such in a period straight after the fire and i knew that the type of accommodation that we've
01:23:18 the type of accommodation that we've been offered other social housing units across
01:23:21 across london probably wouldn't be what people wanted so i didn't have an alternative to where to go from hotels and what happened before people were permanently housed but i did rather suspect that
01:23:32 housed but i did rather suspect that people wouldn't want to be just bunged in a tower block in wandsworth and told you'll be all right there for a couple of years until we find you something permanent what people really probably wanted was something entirely
01:23:44 probably wanted was something entirely different which is quite a personalized service where people considered what their wants and needs were and quite rightly you know kind of some thought and consideration about where they
01:23:55 and consideration about where they wanted to go next and that may well mean that people stayed in hotels for a longer period than anybody ever envisaged at the outset but moving people and then moving people again and
01:24:06 people and then moving people again and then moving people again is just awful it's awful when you haven't been through a disaster but even more awful when you have
01:24:14 have but i also knew it's a very difficult problem to solve because there just aren't enough social housing units in london and the south east so supply was always going to be difficult in the weight of
01:24:25 weight of overwhelming demand not just from from the wider housing waiting lists of of all boroughs but also from people who needed to be rehoused who needed a
01:24:36 needed to be rehoused who needed a thoughtful and considered approach and i said on the friday that i thought it would probably take around two years to rehouse everybody and i think it probably took about that length of time
01:24:47 probably took about that length of time finally miss johnson in relation to events between the 14th of june and those days when you were involved up until the 17th of june is there anything now that you would
01:24:58 is there anything now that you would have done differently gosh yes
01:25:03 gosh yes if
01:25:04 if i would have made it a priority to communicate communicate communicate with all of the people who had been placed in hotels i didn't realize at the time that people had such a lack of information i
01:25:16 people had such a lack of information i suppose i was dealing with events as they arose as was my team in terms of placing people cordons huge amount of my time was spent answering press enquiries and through
01:25:27 answering press enquiries and through asking for information but actually now being able to step back from it and looking at it with hindsight actually what people really needed when they came out of there was they needed people to come around and see them straight away
01:25:38 come around and see them straight away and be able to talk to them and just run them through what was happening and really explain you know kind of how we're managing that situation we just didn't have the manpower and we probably didn't think it through in careful
01:25:49 didn't think it through in careful enough detail about what people really needed after they'd come out of that so that's what i would uh that's my reflection on that is that people really needed a great deal more communication and understanding and
01:26:00 communication and understanding and information from the local authority than was available and that's what i would definitely do different
01:26:06 different it's wisconsin it all remains for me on behalf of the council team so thank you again for attending today and we've got no further questions and ms johnson is right of course that i
01:26:17 and ms johnson is right of course that i should thank you for coming a second time to give evidence to the inquiry albeit on a completely different area of our investigations we are of course very grateful to you for making the time to
01:26:28 grateful to you for making the time to come and give your evidence it's been helpful and very interesting to hear what you have to tell us and so as i say we are very grateful to you thank you very much and you're now free to go of course thank you very much
01:26:39 free to go of course thank you very much chair
01:26:49 thank you very much mr keating now um we have another witness coming but not till tomorrow is that's correct mr miller will be calling mr holgates the former town clerk yes very good thank you very much so at that point we'll
01:27:01 you very much so at that point we'll close for today and we will resume the hearing tomorrow at 10 o'clock in the morning thank you thank you very much 10 o'clock tomorrow please
01:27:29 you