Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea Evidence - Tuesday 18th May 2021 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:15 yes mr millet now you have another witness

00:00:17 witness i do mr chairman yes can i call please mr nicholas padgett brown

00:00:31 mr nicholas padgett brown good afternoon mr patrick brown i understand you're going to take the oath would you take the testament in your right hand then please and read the words on the screen i swear by

00:00:42 read the words on the screen i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much now sit down and make yourself comfortable

00:00:56 yes do take some water if you'd like some

00:01:06 thank you yes mr pitt yes mr chairman um mr padgett brown good afternoon can i start by thanking you very much for attending this public inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we're very grateful to

00:01:17 investigations we're very grateful to you um if you have any difficulty understanding any of my questions i'm happy to put the question again or frame it in a different way can i ask you to keep your voice up so that the transcriber who sits to your

00:01:28 that the transcriber who sits to your right can get down everything you're saying clearly and accurately it also helps not to shake your head or or nod

00:01:36 or nod say no or yes as the case may be we're going to take a break at about 3 15 or 320 or so

00:01:42 320 or so but if you need a break at any other time we can take a break and if we go into tomorrow the same will apply um i'm going to ask you about two statements that you've made

00:01:54 statements that you've made to the inquiry the first is rbk3035001 if we can have that up is that the first page of your first witness statement

00:02:05 yes it is and if you go please to page 36

00:02:10 36 you can see that there's a date and a signature the date is the 31st of october 2018 and the signature is just above it is that your signature yes i'll call that your first statement can we next go to your second statement

00:02:22 we next go to your second statement please rbk3054428 is that the first page of your second statement

00:02:30 statement yes if we can go to page 19 we can see a signature there above the date 26th

00:02:37 date 26th september 2019. is that your signature yes

00:02:40 yes i'll call that your second statement have you read your first and your second witness statements recently yes i have now i believe that there are some corrections that you wish to make

00:02:51 some corrections that you wish to make to your statements um the first i think is in the first statement can we go please to page five in that

00:02:58 in that and look at paragraph 17

00:03:02 and you see what you say there i think it's right that at the time you drafted that paragraph you didn't have the rbkc cabinet and leadership team membership table

00:03:12 table in front of you is that correct that's correct can we look at that it's five rbk50 two eight zero

00:03:32 five rbk50 two eight zero and if we open that please

00:03:44 there it is um is that uh have you studied this table recently uh yes i have do you accept it's accurate uh yes i do

00:03:56 do you accept it's accurate uh yes i do and in preference to what you said in your statement yes there's one additional member of my cabinet who i've admitted and that's councillor jana gardner correct and she was cabinet member for community safety i.t and corporate

00:04:08 community safety i.t and corporate services

00:04:09 services is this right from the 23rd of may 2013 until the 24th of may 2016. that's correct thank you can we look at your second statement please at rbk3054428 page 8 please

00:04:23 and the paragraph 26 and 28 in there now where you're dealing with uh complaints and your correspondence log

00:04:35 complaints and your correspondence log you say uh at paragraph 26 in the first sentence my correspondence log from

00:04:43 log from december 2013 to june 2017 with records missing from june to december 2013 does not indicate any specific complaints about the grenfell refurbishment

00:04:54 refurbishment uh in fact i think you want to add something at the end there don't you uh yes i do uh and can you tell us well let me let me put it to you i think you want to add there that that

00:05:05 you want to add there that that that that should say other than a complaint from edward daffan on 10th december 2014 about quotes illegal actions by rbkc planning and tmo re-windows

00:05:17 by rbkc planning and tmo re-windows that's correct and is it right that you requested a draft response from laverne parker

00:05:22 parker about the procedure for making a formal complaint and you replied to him on the 16th of december 2014. uh yes that that is also correct and the reference to that document i shall read

00:05:33 reference to that document i shall read into the record is tmo one triple zero eight two six eight i think you also want to make a correction to paragraph twenty eight if we can have that on the screen please

00:05:49 um you say uh there

00:05:54 uh that i do not believe i received any specific complaints in my weekly mail bag relating specifically to grenfell tower other than the power surges of may 2013 referred to below i think you want to add don't you and

00:06:05 i think you want to add don't you and the complaint about the windows referred to above and respected which i requested a draft response from laverne parker

00:06:12 parker yeah correct correct yes thank you very much

00:06:16 much other than those corrections that you've made to those statements can you confirm that their contents are are true or are true with those corrections yes with those corrections i believe they're true have you discussed your statements or your evidence that

00:06:27 your statements or your evidence that you're going to give today with anybody before coming here today um only with the council's legal advisors right now i'm going to turn to your political career please first of all and i'd like to ask you first about housing

00:06:39 i'd like to ask you first about housing issues

00:06:41 issues uh and your uh but before i do that can i ask you some preferential questions about your involvement in local politics it's right i think that you were appointed a um counsellor or elected

00:06:52 appointed a um counsellor or elected councillor first in 1986 correct and at that time is it right you um held a number of positions and from that time a number of positions in housing

00:07:04 housing yes i was initially on the private sector housing committee which was the subcommittee of the main housing committee

00:07:10 committee two years later i became chairman of the public sector housing committee which was also subcommittee of the main housing committee and and from that time until 1996 is it right that rbk rbkc managed its own housing stock

00:07:23 rbk rbkc managed its own housing stock including its social housing stock yes and in 1988 you were appointed i think chairman of the public sector housing committee

00:07:31 committee correct and that you were you chaired the tenants consultative committee as well i think yes i did and what did your role as chairman of both of those committees involved in in brief

00:07:43 in brief um it involved uh looking at policy papers relating to the council's housing stock and it's the use of the housing stock and the pressures on the housing stock

00:07:55 pressures on the housing stock the funding of it and chairing committees of councillors who would then cross-examine officers of the then housing department

00:08:07 officers of the then housing department about the contents of the paper and essentially hold them to account raise questions that they had and determine policy on public sector housing

00:08:17 housing uh is it right that you then became the vice chairman of a new committee in the early 1990s after housing and social services were merged yes that's correct did you hold that position until you

00:08:28 did you hold that position until you became deputy mayor in 1993 um yes i believe so yes would it be fair to say that over that period you became intimately acquainted with management of rbkc's housing stock

00:08:40 rbkc's housing stock yes i think that's i think that's a fair conclusion did you continue to be involved in issues concerning the management of rbkc's housing as deputy mayor

00:08:54 as deputy mayor um to be perfectly honest i can't now remember there was a year where i was deputy mayor and either i was still vice chairman of the housing and social services or i'd started in my new

00:09:03 new uh set of responsibilities but i can't now remember without looking it up okay turning to the tma we know that the tma was launched in 1996 yes yes and that was just a few years

00:09:14 yes yes and that was just a few years after you you had been the vice chairman of that

00:09:16 of that of the housing and social services committee

00:09:19 committee do you remember the formation of the tmo being discussed during your time on the housing committee um in in general terms yes because there was new legislation going through at the

00:09:30 was new legislation going through at the time which set up the right to manage and there was also i think a sort of national political bias against councils running their own housing

00:09:40 housing stock with big right potentially running up big debts if they wish to refurbish or renew the stock um there was a thought i think that maybe

00:09:50 maybe uh housing could be transferred to housing associations and i think in kensington and chelsea the view of the tenants was they did not wish to transfer to a housing association they would rather manage their own

00:10:03 they would rather manage their own their own stock and that was an option so actually i think we became the first um tenant management organization uh in the country to cover the whole of the borough and it was a you know it was launched nationally by a minister

00:10:15 launched nationally by a minister right do you recall who it was he proposed that a the tmo should be formed um

00:10:22 no i think it would have been there would have been technical advice at the time that this was an option and it probably would have been discussed with um tenants possibly an attendance consultative committee meeting

00:10:33 meeting and uh it would have emerged from that but i slightly wasn't around during the that those discussions yes i see

00:10:40 yes i see um can we go to your first statement please at page 12 and look at paragraph 53

00:10:47 53 you say that at the foot of the page under the heading kensington and chelsea tenant management organization the kensington and chelsea tenant management organization was formally launched in 1996

00:10:58 launched in 1996 by the right honourable john gummer secretary of state for the environment this was a few years after i'd been vice chair of the housing and social service committee and during my appointment as chair of the environment committee

00:11:09 the environment committee it's my understanding that the tma was formed in response to changes in legislation and a desire by tenants to avoid the council's housing stock being transferred to a housing association where it was possible

00:11:21 association where it was possible that rents would rise more sharply do you know or can you remember how that desire on the part of the tenants was communicated to the council well i can't in detail remember how that

00:11:32 well i can't in detail remember how that would have happened but i'm sure as i said i wasn't actually involved with housing during the sort of intensity of those discussions but it would have probably been um through the tenants consultative committee

00:11:43 committee which met um i think regularly and sort of more informal margin in the margins discussions between councillors tenants officers

00:11:55 councillors tenants officers that this might be a viable way of not having to

00:11:58 having to transfer the stock to a housing association and in paragraph 54 you say following the launch of the kc tmo rbkc took the decision to transfer all

00:12:09 rbkc took the decision to transfer all of its housing stock to the tmo does that mean that the tmo was formed before that decision was made

00:12:20 i don't remember i would have thought the decision would have been made and then the kctma would have been established but i that's pure speculation yes that i i understand why you say that and that's

00:12:32 understand why you say that and that's why i asked the question can you help us as to why at least according to your statement here the decision

00:12:39 decision was made to transfer all the housing stock to the tmo after the decision was made to set it up well again my

00:12:50 well again my memory is not completely clear on this but i think the idea that you might have a small organization within the borough that was running some of the housing a small tenant management association

00:13:02 association was thought not to lend the economies of scale you'd end up with a small organization here which was a mini tmo you would end up perhaps with a rump of a council housing department you might

00:13:14 council housing department you might transfer a bit of the stock to a housing association so you would end up with a model whereas if you have one borough-wide organization you would get economies of scale uh you could you could see the

00:13:25 uh you could you could see the management uh working across the borough and that would be a better solution was that was that the thinking at the time i believe it was right and does that explain why rbkc decided to move the management of its whole housing stock

00:13:37 management of its whole housing stock to the tma i i think so yes was there any consideration do you remember at the time of whether the tma was adequately structured and resourced to ensure that it could discharge all of

00:13:48 to ensure that it could discharge all of its responsibilities that it had undertaken in respect of the entirety

00:13:52 entirety of rbkc's housing stock well i can't remember that as i said it was no longer really involved in the detail of those discussions i've moved on to a different area of responsibility on the council

00:14:03 area of responsibility on the council but it would seem to me that you would transfer what had once been the in-house council's housing department with the different structures different areas responsibility and you would transfer them

00:14:14 them completely in one 100 piece to the to the new organization that's essentially i believe what happened yes but my question is really uh when that decision was made to transfer the entirety of the housing

00:14:26 transfer the entirety of the housing stock what consideration was given to whether the tmo was adequately resourced and structured so as to be able to manage that entire stock

00:14:33 stock i really don't think i can answer your question on that i don't i don't know all right

00:14:37 all right moving forward in time you chaired the environment committee when did you take that position up do you remember um i think it was 19 responsibilities change every may and i think it was

00:14:48 change every may and i think it was probably either may 1993 or may 1994 but i can't

00:14:53 i can't now remember which that period of overlap with my deputy mayoralty yes i see and in 2000 you became the borough's cabinet member for regeneration community safety in the voluntary sector

00:15:04 voluntary sector yes that's right and and you were i think also appointed chief whip for the conservative group is that correct correct and you manage that portfolio is this right until you became deputy leader of rbkc

00:15:15 until you became deputy leader of rbkc in 2011.

00:15:17 in 2011. i was the chief whip until 2011 but my area my portfolio area of responsibility changed i think in 2000 2006 or it might have been 2007

00:15:29 have been 2007 when i became the cabinet member for environment and then two years later the cabinet member for environment and transport and leisure right

00:15:39 and then you became leader in may may 2013.

00:15:43 2013. correct and then resigned on the 30th of june 2017 after the grenfell tower fire correct

00:15:48 correct um i want to ask you some questions now about the constitution of rbkc please and you cover this in some detail at paragraphs 12 to 16 of your of your first statement and and you

00:15:59 of your first statement and and you exhibit some documents um we don't need to look at that specifically at this stage but were you familiar in general with the constitution during your time as deputy leader and

00:16:10 during your time as deputy leader and then leader i'm not very familiar with all of it but familiar with parts of it where i needed to be familiar with it well let's see how we go so you never sat down and read it cover to

00:16:21 you never sat down and read it cover to cover no

00:16:23 cover no um can we look at rbk3035017 please

00:16:30 this is appendix b to the constitution uh and it's entitled royal borough's member level governance arrangements as of may 2015

00:16:41 of may 2015 which is uh uh at the top of the of the screen there and you have full council and on the left council side committees and on the right the executive

00:16:51 executive and scrutiny sits between the two and you describe that in paragraph 13 of your first witness statement as representing the member level governance arrangements does this diagram or organogram reflect

00:17:05 does this diagram or organogram reflect the structure of the governance arrangements throughout your time as deputy leader and then leader of the council

00:17:17 yes i wanted to the scrutiny committee titles change but essentially they were the same type of area and and yes that looks a familiar structure from to me yes i see

00:17:31 now turning to the full council that sits at the top as you can see yes uh and the

00:17:37 and the the role of full council was governed by article four of the constitution it wasn't it you know that did you know that i don't don't remember which article the constitution right but i'm not this

00:17:48 constitution right but i'm not this isn't going to be a test on the constitution right particularly i just want you to help me confirm what's in it

00:17:53 in it go to rbk uh three zeros three five zero zero two

00:18:01 zero two and on page one of that document this is this is part two of the constitution article four the full council you see it yes uh uh and under uh 4

00:18:14 uh and under uh 4 0 1 you can see that it would meet it would have 50 elected councillors and would meet in three ways annual meeting ordinary meetings and

00:18:25 annual meeting ordinary meetings and extraordinary meetings conducted in accordance with the standing orders you i think you were familiar at least with that yeah and then if you look down at paragraph or article four point naught four it defines the full

00:18:37 naught four it defines the full council's terms of reference and you can see that there a particularly to prove and adopt the following plans and strategies subject to any variation that may from time to time be made in response to legislation and which

00:18:49 in response to legislation and which together make up the council's budgetary and

00:18:51 and policy framework and then there's a list and you can see them there yes um and if you look over the page please

00:18:58 please uh to article four point naught four d or o four d top of page two

00:19:07 two one of the things was to appoint the leader of the council at the post-election annual meeting or any subsequent meeting yes

00:19:16 do we take it that you were elected leader by the full council uh yes i was elected leader by the full council

00:19:23 council having first been elected leader of the majority party the biggest party of the of the council so the biggest party has a leader the minority party also has a leader and the leader of the biggest party is

00:19:35 and the leader of the biggest party is then elected by the full council once a year

00:19:38 year yes and just on that occasion does the constitution change to identify the leader by name

00:19:48 um i'm not trying to stand your question does this document change yes i don't think so right well we'll come back to that shortly if we continue on this page look at l sub paragraph or

00:19:59 sub paragraph or sub article l to consider those matters referred to it from time to time by scrutiny committees and by other council committees how often in practice were issues referred by scrutiny committees to the full

00:20:10 by scrutiny committees to the full council

00:20:11 council um occasionally not not regularly i mean it

00:20:14 it i think it sort of went up and down a bit but occasionally scrutiny would refer something to the council and it would be debated or somebody would move a motion and that would be debated but

00:20:24 but um do you recall during your time as leader or as deputy leader if any issues regarding housing particularly were referred by the housing and property scrutiny committee

00:20:35 housing and property scrutiny committee to full council i don't remember that right

00:20:42 does it follow from that i think it probably does that no issues concerning grenfell tower specifically were referred to full council by the housing and property scrutiny committee during your time as leader

00:20:54 during your time as leader not that i recall now or as deputy leader

00:20:58 leader i don't think so right moving to cabinet can we please go to rbk3035010 this is in a different part of the

00:21:10 this is in a different part of the constitution this is part two article seven

00:21:14 seven and at 7.01 exactly we have the executive and under a it says the executive is responsible for undertaking all of the council's functions except for those functions

00:21:26 functions except for those functions specified in article 4 and part 3 of the constitution that are reserved to the council and that are undertaken by the full council or delegated by the council to committees subcommittees if any and uh or officers when the

00:21:38 if any and uh or officers when the executive meet collectively it's known as the cabinet individual councillors that are members of the executive are known as cabinet members

00:21:45 members it's fair to say is it then looking at that that the role of cabinet was to have responsibility for anything that was not the responsibility of the full council or council committees uh yes yes and if we look uh down the

00:21:58 uh yes yes and if we look uh down the page to the foot of the page please can we scroll down to article 7.04 cabinet mem other cabinet members

00:22:09 that says in a the leader appoints the other cabinet members and notifies the director of strategy and local services of their appointments so is it the leader or was it the leader who would

00:22:20 leader or was it the leader who would decide

00:22:21 decide the portfolios of individual cabinet members yes during the majority of the time of uh that you occupied the seat as leader it's right to think that isn't it the council of rockfielding mellon

00:22:33 council of rockfielding mellon from 2013 was the deputy leader yes and he was also the cabinet member for housing property and regeneration yes do you know why you appointed councillor fielding mellon in particular

00:22:44 councillor fielding mellon in particular to those roles uh yes um prior to either of us holding those positions

00:22:51 positions we'd um had discussions in formal discussions about housing issues about the future of our housing stock as a as a borough

00:23:03 our housing stock as a as a borough um rock had been elected as a councillor in north kensington for four years i think i think between 2006 and 2010

00:23:14 i think between 2006 and 2010 so he'd had some experience of some of the social housing issues and housing associations um he worked

00:23:20 worked or had set up as i understand it a consultancy specializing in property and planning type issues he lived in north kensington and

00:23:32 he lived in north kensington and i thought he would be a very good person to be involved with regeneration and housing

00:23:39 um he was uh i think some 34 years old also at that stage yes i believe so yes was that that and he told us yesterday that although that wasn't particularly young

00:23:52 although that wasn't particularly young uh

00:23:52 uh looking across the country it was it was unusually young for rbkc did it strike you at the time that he was a particularly young candidate for the post uh not on julie

00:24:04 candidate for the post uh not on julie it didn't no it struck me i was beginning to um be at the top end of the age range on the council and we needed to bring forward some younger people and his name lent itself to that right

00:24:17 his name lent itself to that right looking at article 707 please if we go uh over the page 7.07

00:24:31 yes that's it page two um under a the cabinet usually meets on a monthly basis but the leader keeps this arrangement under review the leader chairs the meetings there are leaders meetings at approximately monthly intervals i.e between cabinet

00:24:43 monthly intervals i.e between cabinet meetings

00:24:45 meetings what was the purpose of the leaders meetings which were held in private yeah um the the purpose of a leaders meeting is to discuss some of the issues which are likely to come forward to the cabinet

00:24:57 likely to come forward to the cabinet or particular issues which are of concern to an individual cabinet member where perhaps different options need to be explored before a final cabinet paper can be produced so it's an informal

00:25:09 can be produced so it's an informal well it's a structured meeting which is properly uh clarked but it does give members of the cabinet a chance to discuss debate test ideas before they

00:25:22 discuss debate test ideas before they become rather more set in aspect and become a cabinet paper for formal approval at a formal cabinet meeting

00:25:29 meeting were those meetings minuted uh yes they were they were are those the meetings you refer to at paragraph 28 of your uh first witness statement on page seven if we can just have have a look back at

00:25:40 if we can just have have a look back at that

00:25:41 that please

00:25:44 you refer to uh meetings with individual cabinet members there town clerk and the directors from the relevant department are those the meetings um

00:25:55 are those the meetings um that are covered um in article 7.7 uh no they're not these are different these are different meetings um would you like me to cover yes what

00:26:07 um would you like me to cover yes what these meetings are yes what are those these are meetings i had once a year with individual cabinet meeting cabinet members usually in january february time where i would have the

00:26:18 february time where i would have the appropriate cabinet member the executive director who advised them the town clerk and chief executive and any other very senior officer thought to be relevant so we could discuss particular issues

00:26:30 so we could discuss particular issues within that portfolio issues which might come forward during the issues which were likely to be controversial issues perhaps where the cabinet member would like to have a steer either from me or from

00:26:42 me or from the chief executive and in the sense they would try to differentiate from a meeting we would then have six months later to review the financial position to agree budgets for the next three year period

00:26:54 budgets for the next three year period so we didn't muddle up budgets with sort of policy issues and general direction of travel but they weren't the same as the leaders group which was sort of in if you like informal cabinet meetings that took place

00:27:05 place broadly once a month yes i see uh and with the minutes you're sorry the meetings you're referring to in your answer just now minuted uh in paragraph 28 yes uh yes they were

00:27:17 uh in paragraph 28 yes uh yes they were they were can we look back please at article seven uh and go within that previous document please to page three uh and under seven point eight seven do you i'm sorry i need to go to page three

00:27:31 you i'm sorry i need to go to page three uh under 7.08 delegation of functions you can see little a it says this the functions set out in part 3.8 of this constitution have been delegated by the leader to the

00:27:42 have been delegated by the leader to the cabinet member and or executive director or

00:27:45 or director now we'll come back to part three a in a moment i just ask you to note that for the time being um i now want to ask you about key decisions if you look a little bit further down page three

00:27:57 further down page three you'll come to the very foot of the page uh

00:28:00 uh and we need to turn to page four this is part

00:28:03 part um this is article 7.10 the decision making process over onto page four you'll see that in article 7.10 b

00:28:14 that in article 7.10 b definition of key decisions a key decision will be any executive side matter that is not already delegated to officers which one involves income or expenditure of 100 000 pounds or more

00:28:26 100 000 pounds or more and or two is likely to have a significant impact on the community in one or more electoral wards is it right that the decision to refurbish grenfell tower was a key

00:28:38 refurbish grenfell tower was a key decision within the meaning of article 7 point 10 b uh yes it was it would have been a key decision for the whole cabinet

00:28:49 decision for the whole cabinet right can we then go down to article 7.10

00:28:53 7.10 uh uh h at page six

00:29:00 under key decision making and it says this key decisions are made either by the full cabinet or by individual cabinet members and then if you look at i to k uh you'll

00:29:13 and then if you look at i to k uh you'll see

00:29:13 see uh that there is a description of the procedure to be adopted if the key decision is to be made by cabinet or the individual cabinet member if you just scroll down onto page seven please

00:29:24 just scroll down onto page seven please you'll

00:29:25 you'll you'll see that and you can see that there's a

00:29:28 there's a distinction between individual cabinet members and and and cabinets um in general terms mr patrick brown how was it decided whether a key decision was to

00:29:40 a key decision was to be made by the cabinet uh or an individual cabinet member well other than um yes other than the financial thresholds involved there will

00:29:51 financial thresholds involved there will be a thought by the cabinet member that perhaps a

00:29:54 perhaps a controver controversial matter was going to be

00:29:57 to be decided upon which technically they might be able to take a key decision on on their own but it would be prudent perhaps to bring it to the cabinet and get collective agreement that that was the way forward

00:30:09 agreement that that was the way forward so

00:30:10 so something which may not be financially particularly expensive but might be controversial or difficult they would want the full cabinet to take a decision on that and that that would be agreed between me and the

00:30:21 would be agreed between me and the cabinet member um and occasionally we would discuss it with the town clerk but um the idea was to have as much flexibility as possible so that somebody could bring something to the cabinet for a collective agreement and the

00:30:33 for a collective agreement and the decision

00:30:35 decision to have a key decision made by a cabinet member or the full cabinet was a decision i think you say made between you the town clerk and the particular cabinet member

00:30:47 particular cabinet member um yes i think a lot of decisions are very um what you might call routine they're not either controversial or particularly expensive and there's a councils collectively take a lot of

00:30:59 councils collectively take a lot of decisions over the course of a year so most things can be decisions can be put on the forward plan the decision can be notified taken by the individual cabinet member

00:31:10 taken by the individual cabinet member and there's no controversy and it's straightforward but it's it's taken in public you can see all the detail

00:31:15 detail key decisions are on the forward plan as i say where it's more controversial you may want collective agreement to it so it's then a cabinet decision and if there are certain financial thresholds or it's taking the

00:31:27 financial thresholds or it's taking the council in a different or new direction then that should come to the full cabinet is it right that the decision to refurbish grenfell tower was made by the whole cabinet uh yes and whose decision was that

00:31:42 uh yes and whose decision was that to have it decided by the full cabinet was that yours um well it would have been the leader at the time the decision on to refurbish grenfell tower was was taken which

00:31:53 tower was was taken which was my predecessor i see so that that would be 2012. yes that was that was the first time i saw a cabinet paper i think

00:32:02 i think right now can we go to rbk3035007 page one which is part three point a of the constitution which i said i'd come back to this is

00:32:15 which i said i'd come back to this is entitled responsibility for functions and uh if you look at article 1.1 under a executive functions you'll see it says this the leader of the council is nicholas padgett brown

00:32:26 is nicholas padgett brown details of those members he is appointed to his cabinet are published on the council website and are available also by calling governance services on and then there's a telephone number yes

00:32:38 this is the reason i asked you why whether the constitution was updated every time a new leader was appointed we see you're named specifically there is that because as i asked you the constitution is

00:32:50 as i asked you the constitution is updated every time there's a new leader all because it it was updated during your time and a decision was taken to name you there well i i don't know why my name in

00:33:03 well i i don't know why my name in particular appears there uh it's all quite accurate but the leader might decide the names of the portfolios or might make some changes to what responsibilities are

00:33:14 responsibilities are so maybe when i became leader i made some changes from from the structure my predecessor had had and maybe those are set out there for

00:33:21 for clarity i can't see what the document goes on to say but um i had made some changes to to people's right can you explain why your name specifically i can't really no

00:33:32 specifically i can't really no right um then let's look on down to page four in this part

00:33:40 and look at article 1.7 this is entitled the functions and portfolios of individual cabinet members and it starts leader of the council and article 1.7 provides the scope of

00:33:51 and article 1.7 provides the scope of the leader's responsibility spans all portfolios ensuring coordination and a coherent approach to the council's decision-making the leader can make any decision which is delegated to an individual cabinet member or to the cabinet

00:34:03 or to the cabinet [Applause] and then it goes on to identify a number of uh a number of activities uh as as you can see

00:34:13 uh

00:34:16 and um if you uh look down at little roman four

00:34:28 it's it refers to the council's contribution to the life of the royal borough and to the capital and sub-region would that include housing

00:34:39 would that include housing um yes and i suppose quite a housing would fall into quite a few of these categories would it um for example uh strategies under

00:34:50 um for example uh strategies under little roman one yes and uh overall control of the revenue and capital finances under two yes yes

00:35:00 would you have considered or did you consider little raymond iv to have included taking responsibility for projects such as the refurbishment of grenfell tower uh no i didn't

00:35:10 didn't no if you look at little raymond five the functioning of the council of councils cabinet including the allocation of responsibilities to the full cabinet and individual cabinet members the

00:35:21 and individual cabinet members the appointment and dismissal of those cabinet members and the delegation of executive authority to officers were you in your role as leader ultimately responsible for ensuring that

00:35:33 ultimately responsible for ensuring that the cabinet member for housing property and regeneration was discharging their responsibilities properly uh yes i was and under roman 6 partnership working

00:35:44 and under roman 6 partnership working across the council services including liaison with other statutory agencies in and outside the borough would that have included working with the tmo uh yes as a service

00:35:57 uh yes as a service provider and and as a statutory agency would that have included we included the um the lfb london fire brigade uh yes

00:36:07 can we then move down to page five and look specifically at uh article at 1.8 on that page thank you yes under the heading deputy leader and

00:36:19 yes under the heading deputy leader and cabinet member for housing property and regeneration uh and it provides there and at some length as you can see on your screen uh for the details of what that

00:36:30 uh for the details of what that portfolio

00:36:31 portfolio was concerned with i'm not going to read it all out to you but you can see that it

00:36:35 it it has a large number of of matters each under a set of italics but the first

00:36:42 first 12 sub-articles under article 1.8 are to do with housing matters you see that yes

00:36:52 was it customary for the deputy leader also to hold a cabinet position with a specific portfolio yes and was it you who decided that um rock fielding mellon when he

00:37:04 that um rock fielding mellon when he became deputy leader uh should hold the portfolio of cabinet member for housing property and regeneration yes so the linkage between deputy leader and cabinet member for housing property

00:37:16 and cabinet member for housing property and regeneration was particular was it to mr fielding mellon

00:37:20 mellon um yes there was always a deputy leader of the council and that that whoever the deputy leader was held different portfolios according to their experience interests expertise and what the leader

00:37:32 interests expertise and what the leader wanted to

00:37:33 wanted to get done so yeah as i explained earlier my

00:37:37 my view was that rockfield and melon would be a good um not only a good deputy leader but a good cabinet member for housing regeneration and property yes i'm interested in this because just as we saw you specifically named

00:37:50 we saw you specifically named under the leader part of the constitution here we see a portfolio linking the deputy leader and the cabinet the role of cabinet member for housing property and regeneration

00:38:02 property and regeneration and that link is this right was was purely because both of those roles were given to rockfielding melon so in fact this is describing him yes i i can't quite place this

00:38:13 him yes i i can't quite place this document but it looks to me as if whoever prepared it prepared it shortly after i had become leader and then put in these either either my name or who i had

00:38:24 either either my name or who i had chosen as deputy or other portfolio titles and it's so slightly it's slightly odd but it's it does cover the ground that they are supposed to be responsible for yes put it this way if um if rockfielding mellon had ceased to become

00:38:36 rockfielding mellon had ceased to become cease to be deputy leader for whatever reason uh then the heading of this part of this

00:38:41 of this uh of this part of the constitution would have to be redrafted wouldn't it yes yes um so this is specific really to him and you can see all the items for housing uh there does it tell us

00:38:55 for housing uh there does it tell us that um

00:38:58 well um

00:39:03 uh sorry let me just ask you this by reference to paragraph raymond one it says under housing matters all social housing regeneration projects and under little roman eight

00:39:16 projects and under little roman eight the tenant management organization management agreement and regulation you see that there yes does that mean that ultimate responsibility for oversight of fire safety within the tmos stock

00:39:29 of fire safety within the tmos stock lay with the cabinet member for housing property and regeneration

00:39:36 well it will be it will be an area of responsibility for the cabinet member but the tenant management organization had its own line of accountability to its own board i believe had structures to to reflect

00:39:48 i believe had structures to to reflect that um

00:39:49 that um and its own relationship with the london fire brigade so i suppose there's a triangulation and yes i would certainly expect the cabinet member

00:39:57 member um to uh include include fire safety and that

00:40:01 that yes in that role in that set of responsibilities yes thank you and by virtue of article 1.7 roman 5 we looked at earlier

00:40:12 looked at earlier do you accept it was your job to ensure that that cabinet member the person holding the role of cabinet member for housing property and regeneration performed their job properly yes yes

00:40:23 performed their job properly yes yes and stepping back from the detail we've just been examining do you agree that by virtue of the constitution you had responsibility for both social housing

00:40:32 housing social social housing projects and the proper management of the tmo yes do you agree that your responsibilities as leader of the council extended to the welfare of the residents of rbkc's housing stock

00:40:43 residents of rbkc's housing stock yes i'm going to ask you some questions next about the scrutiny committee um first of all did you ever receive any training in relation to how to conduct scrutiny

00:40:58 i don't think i did because weirdly i don't think i ever sat on a scrutiny committee because when the cabinet and committee scrutiny committee system was set up in 2000 i i joined the cabinet so i don't think i'd

00:41:10 joined the cabinet so i don't think i'd ever sat on the scrutiny committee but i know in those early days arrangements were made to provide training for members who sat on scrutiny committees

00:41:21 committees and i believe we had either one or two mps who chaired select committees at the house of commons come and run a session i seem to remember mrs gwyneth dumbledie came on one occasion right um right let's look at a document

00:41:34 right um right let's look at a document um

00:41:35 um this is inq3014671

00:41:41 at page 90.

00:41:47 uh i should show you i probably will show you page one actually of this document just to show you what it is this is the chartered institute of public finance and accountancies delivering good governance uh guidance

00:41:59 delivering good governance uh guidance uh and it's the 2016 edition we haven't been able to trace an earlier edition i'm not saying there isn't one it's got a memorable front page um just looking at it is it a document you think you've ever seen before no

00:42:11 seen before no no let's look at page 90 nonetheless and look at paragraph 6.9 with me under the heading principles of good scrutiny and it says the center for public

00:42:22 and it says the center for public scrutiny has established four core principles of good scrutiny first bullet provides critical friend challenge to executive policy makers and decision takers second bullet enables the voice and

00:42:34 second bullet enables the voice and concerns of the public third bullet is carried out by independent-minded counsellors who lead and own the process fourth bullet drives improvement in public services

00:42:45 public services and goes on local authority overview and scrutiny committees have the power to summon members of the executive and officers of the authority before it to answer questions and they're able to invite other persons

00:42:56 and they're able to invite other persons to attend meetings to give their views or submit evidence are those principles familiar to you or were they familiar to you at the time you were leader

00:43:07 you were leader well they absolutely encapsulate what i understood and expected a scrutiny committee to do i'm not sure i've ever seen these set out well i haven't seen this document as far as i know but yes those

00:43:18 document as far as i know but yes those those look very reasonable to me look yes yes with these principles can you recall the subject of any specific training that members of the scrutiny committee underwent during your time

00:43:29 underwent during your time either as deputy leader or leader um i don't know the answer to that other than to say newly elected members of the council went through some quite

00:43:40 went through some quite rigorous um training um had some sort of training induction courses and i'm sure something like this would have would have um featured but i can't go

00:43:51 would have um featured but i can't go any further than that you're speculating yes yes uh did you yourself seek to foster these principles when you were deputy or leader of the council um

00:44:03 council um yes i did um i had just started probably no more than a year before my leadership came to an end trying to have some informal gatherings with each

00:44:15 have some informal gatherings with each of the scrutiny committees across all all members or parties just so they could come in and see me and talk about some of the issues that uh

00:44:23 that uh they were concerned about or which needed dealing with or where perhaps i could

00:44:28 could um talk to them about things that i thought were of interest so that was another link between the leadership and the scrutiny committees and of course any

00:44:35 any any chairman of any scrutiny committee could could always come and see me i mean there was no suggestion they couldn't but there was supposed to be this separation so i thought it was yes um you say this this started no more

00:44:46 yes um you say this this started no more than a year before your leadership came to an end and your leadership came to an end at the end of june 2017. so yes this would have been in 2016 would it have been yes so from the middle of 2016 onwards um

00:44:59 so from the middle of 2016 onwards um right what was it that caused you to take this

00:45:02 take this view at that time or approach from that time

00:45:06 time well i was just a bit concerned that as leader you can spend a lot of time talking to cabinet members who take executive decisions but you're not always talking to the scrutiny committee some of whom contain fairly new members newly elected members

00:45:18 fairly new members newly elected members opposition members and i just thought there was a danger there might become a gulf between me as leader and the scrutiny committees particularly as i

00:45:26 as i uh remember i think it was about two or three years before i became leader rather than the leader appointing the chairman of the scrutiny committees which had been the practice

00:45:37 which had been the practice party colleagues took a decision that they wanted to elect the chairman of the scrutiny committee so i had no particular i had some influence over who became members of scrutiny uh but not who the chairman were was

00:45:49 uh but not who the chairman were was there a particular event that caused you to rethink into 2016 and adopt a more as it were open door policy towards

00:45:57 towards scrutiny committees no but i think i was getting more into my stride as a leader and realizing there were certain areas where i felt that actually you know one could make some innovations this wasn't a huge

00:46:08 innovations this wasn't a huge innovation just to come here once a year and

00:46:10 and have a drink and chat about issues that were of concern to the committee right i thought that would be a good thing to do you said you were getting into your stride this was after three years yes it's quite a long time to get into your

00:46:21 quite a long time to get into your stride

00:46:21 stride takes quite a long time to master the range of issues that as leader of the council you're responsible for um in your view either at this time in 2016 or before that did you

00:46:34 time in 2016 or before that did you think there were a sufficient number of council officers exercising scrutiny over the tmo having regard to the tmos size or rather the the size of its estate

00:46:47 i had never considered whether there were enough officers i knew the tma i think employed more than

00:46:55 more than 200 members of staff so um and

00:47:02 um and both the tmo and the council were operating in a very difficult financial climate i mean head count was always an issue there were all sorts of pressures on council costs and spending so i think if it had been a suggestion that

00:47:14 i think if it had been a suggestion that we have many more officers i probably wouldn't have reacted terribly warmly towards it

00:47:28 uh yes we may have been across purposes i'm talking about numbers of of rbkc people exercising scrutiny over the tmo

00:47:39 people exercising scrutiny over the tmo that was my question rather than head count within the tmo itself should i pose my question sorry i either either head cap within the tmo because they had pressures on the housing revenue account and head cap within rbkc because we have pressures on our

00:47:51 because we have pressures on our revenue support grant from government so it wasn't the time to be expanding staff numbers greatly i see um can we look

00:47:58 look then at another document rbk3063727 now this is a an rbkc document

00:48:10 now this is a an rbkc document from part five of the constitution called d local code of corporate governance are you familiar with this just looking at it on the screen

00:48:21 at it on the screen um

00:48:25 corporate governance yes i should tell you this dates from 2011.

00:48:31 i think i would have seen it it's sort of looking familiar but i i can't say i've got detailed knowledge of this this document but i i think i would have seen something on corporate governance right looking at the first paragraph under the introduction

00:48:43 under the introduction it says this governance is about how local government bodies ensure that they are doing the right things in the right way for the right people in a timely inclusive open honest and accountable manner it comprises the systems and processes

00:48:54 it comprises the systems and processes cultures and values by which local government bodies are directed and controlled and through which they account to engage with and where appropriate lead their communities um timely inclusive

00:49:05 their communities um timely inclusive open honest and accountable um do you agree with those principles of how rbkc should go about doing things yes yes now the code sets out

00:49:16 yes yes now the code sets out in fact six principles we could scroll down and and look at them all but can we go to the fourth principle on page three please principle four it's called

00:49:28 on page four i'm sorry

00:49:35 and it says principle four taking informed and transparent decisions which are subject to effective scrutiny and managing risk the royal borough and then it goes on to say a lot

00:49:46 say a lot under a lot of bullet points the first of which though is this develops and maintains an effective scrutiny function which encourages constructive challenge

00:49:54 challenge and enhances the authority's performance overall and that of any organization for which it is responsible and then develops

00:50:01 develops and maintains open and effective mechanisms for documenting evidence for decisions and recording the criteria rationale

00:50:07 rationale and considerations on which decisions are based

00:50:11 are based i i've only read you two excerpts from this long list but can we take it from those

00:50:16 those first that decisions should be transparent and subject to effective scrutiny

00:50:21 scrutiny yes and second that scrutiny should lead to constructive challenge which improves our bkc and also the tmo as an organization for which the rbkc

00:50:35 as an organization for which the rbkc was responsible yes and do you also agree thirdly that decisions

00:50:41 decisions should be open and effective in meeting that aim

00:50:46 that aim yes yes

00:50:51 now i want to turn to the decision to refurbish

00:50:55 grenfell tower and also in that connection the budget if i can can we start mr patrick brown with your second witness statement please a paragraph six on page two

00:51:08 on page two you say this at the time the initial decision was made to renovate grant the tower in 2012 i was the deputy leader and cabinet member for environment transport and the arts i was not nor would have been privy to

00:51:20 i was not nor would have been privy to the detailed discussions between the then leader cabinet member for housing and property and senior officers in the housing department members of kensington and chelsea's tenant management organization the tmo or other relevant departments

00:51:33 the tmo or other relevant departments and persons on this basis there are some questions which i'm not able to answer as fully as others

00:51:38 others uh and if you go to paragraph 64 of your first witness statement i don't think you need to see it in fact it's on page eight

00:51:46 eight you say that you were involved in the project to construct a new kensington leisure center and you say there that your key was to research the scope of that project yes um was your involvement with the kensington ledger center project

00:51:58 kensington ledger center project continuing when the director of housing's report about the refurbishment of grenfell tower was presented to cabinet on the 2nd of may 2012. uh yes it would have been yes it would

00:52:10 uh yes it would have been yes it would have been

00:52:13 have been can we look at the minute for that meeting please at eight four seven three three one

00:52:31 that that is uh no it's not the minute in fact it's the report of that uh for that meeting um do you remember reading that report at the time uh yes it was that the first time you

00:52:42 uh yes it was that the first time you had heard about the suggestion to refurbish grenfell tower

00:52:51 i think i probably heard sort of informal discussions that it might happen but i hadn't paid great attention to them and then this paper came to cabinet so yeah this is the first sort of written document i've seen but i

00:53:03 of written document i've seen but i think i'd heard it mentioned right do you remember whether you had any discussions with with anyone from the housing department before the cabinet meeting on the 2nd of may 2012.

00:53:12 may 2012. me personally yes i don't think i would have done no you said you wouldn't have done or you don't think you would have done is that because it wasn't your habit to do so um yes i was not the cabinet member for

00:53:26 um yes i was not the cabinet member for housing it seemed to me wonderful that there was some capital receipts from the elm park gardens which i did understand where that money had come from and that my colleague in housing wanted to spend that on grenfell tower it

00:53:38 to spend that on grenfell tower it seemed a

00:53:39 seemed a thoroughly good idea what was the refurbishment or proposed refurbishment discussed at that meeting do you recall um yes i believe it was yes

00:53:50 um yes i believe it was yes can we look at your second witness statement paragraph nine on page three

00:53:59 and you say uh there in the second sentence the cabinet would have the opportunity to ask for further informational clarification from the director of housing cabinet member for housing property and

00:54:10 cabinet member for housing property and regeneration or other offices present at the meeting do you remember asking

00:54:15 asking any questions yourself at the cabinet meeting about the grenfell tower

00:54:22 refurbishment i really can't remember back that far i think it was more than eight years ago but i might have asked a question

00:54:31 question based on my loose knowledge of grenfell tower from those years many years before when i've been um when i've been had responsibility for public sector housing

00:54:43 public sector housing and i do remember i think rental towers one of the very few in the borough that didn't have any out outside space any balkan is and i think i was wondering whether you know we might be fitting balconies or

00:54:54 know we might be fitting balconies or whatever but but that's that's the only possible

00:54:58 what was your loose knowledge of grenfell tower from your years when you heard responsibility for public sector housing

00:55:05 housing um well i think i visited i can't remember um i seem to remember had quite a grim entrance uh right at the it was part of

00:55:16 entrance uh right at the it was part of the lancaster west development so there was the

00:55:20 was the three finger blocks which were the low rise blocks and then an entrance to the tower at the end of them and it wasn't a good piece of public realm i remember thinking that all those years ago

00:55:33 thinking that all those years ago and as i say there were no outside balconies which a number of the high rises do have balconies um and i think i picked up over the years just occasional comments oh grenfell you

00:55:44 just occasional comments oh grenfell you know it's a very the heating's not right and they have problems with windows and things all this sort of thing so when when this came along i would have been wholly supportive of it i'm sure

00:55:56 and there was

00:56:00 yes let's look let's look back at the report then produce four cabinet by laura johnson um tmo double zero eight four seven three three one please if we looked at a moment ago can we go

00:56:11 if we looked at a moment ago can we go to page eight in that document and look at paragraph six 6.3.3 at the foot of the page it says this based on the tma's information on investment need and the aspirations of

00:56:23 investment need and the aspirations of the tmo board and the lancaster west estate management board emb the recommendation is therefore that funds from the elm park gardens capital receipt be set aside for

00:56:34 capital receipt be set aside for investment into renovation regeneration and conversion works to grenfell tower on the lancaster west estate the benefits anticipated to arise from this will be and then there's a long list of bullet points there you see yes

00:56:47 list of bullet points there you see yes now they include if you look at the second bullet point down installing thermally insulated cladding and rain screen curtain walling system to the uninsulated external elevations

00:56:59 to the uninsulated external elevations of grenfell tower significantly improving thermal efficiency fuel economy and providing for an external appearance that reflects and complements the adjoining calc project

00:57:10 project as you can see from what i just read to you is it right that one of the purposes of cladding grenfell tower was to integrate it aesthetically with the cult project

00:57:21 um i'm not quite sure how you could integrate a tower with a um an academy building and then a leisure center i don't think they can quite i mean there are very different

00:57:32 quite i mean there are very different buildings with very different purposes i think what i was interested by and pleased by was the thought of putting thermally insulating cladding around the building

00:57:43 insulating cladding around the building i'd seen lots of other buildings all over london and other parts of the country where they had been refurbished and cladding a gun up on the outside and people had said that you know they're now much more thermally efficient energy

00:57:55 now much more thermally efficient energy efficient

00:57:56 efficient i'd been the cabinet member for the environment we were trying to cut our carbon emissions so it seemed to me that cladding had all sorts of positive right sadly positive purposes right

00:58:08 right sadly positive purposes right do do you recall any particular discussion at this meeting of the thermal performance of the building um i'm not sure if it was at this meeting but yes i'm sure

00:58:19 meeting but yes i'm sure people said you know grenfell tower is very hot in the summer very cold in the winter the windows are not right you know the windows draughty

00:58:30 not right you know the windows draughty um and so the thought that this might be able to be put right was attractive did you i mean you could see the list of of uh

00:58:43 of uh of benefits set out there did you or any other member of the cabinet raise any concerns at this meeting about or any questions at this meeting about fire safety uh no did you ask

00:58:56 uh no did you ask whether a fire consultant had been instructed as it had been or had as one had been for the culp project um i don't think at this meeting no but

00:59:07 um i don't think at this meeting no but one would expect as as the project um developed that you know different consultants with different expertise would be appointed and that would all take place but i think this was more a general scoping you know

00:59:20 this was more a general scoping you know this is a proposal we've got some money this is

00:59:22 this is a project we could spend it on and um i don't think we were at the detailed stage at this point i see did you ask further questions regarding the scope of the works when the cabinet

00:59:33 the scope of the works when the cabinet approved the increase in the budget to 9.7 million pounds in july 2013.

00:59:42 i can't remember what was in that paper but

00:59:45 but i suspect we already had agreed the or the

00:59:48 the the scoping of the the project had been set out i think progress had been made presumably on tendering and they came back requesting more money which we which we approved you approved

00:59:59 approved you approved did you yourself ask any questions or do you remember any questions being asked about the precise reasons for the increase from six odd million to nine point seven on million pounds

01:00:10 point seven on million pounds i don't but i don't think it would have been a big surprise because i think six million was a was an initial allocation to get the project rolling and uh start hiring people and uh and at

01:00:21 uh start hiring people and uh and at some point you go out to tender and um that's when the the the bill becomes a lot clearer so you have to reflect that yes and do you recall that in june 2014

01:00:32 in june 2014 the um budget for the grenfell tower refurbishment was increased from 9.7 million pounds to 10.3 million pounds

01:00:39 pounds uh yes i do do you remember asking any questions about why that was

01:00:46 at some point i think i would have asked the question um because i have been lobbied by ward councillors about the uh the nursery

01:00:57 nursery play um the boxing club um and whether those could be incorporated into the works and i was quite keen that they were incorporated into the works i'm not quite sure now

01:01:08 into the works i'm not quite sure now whether the contingency was to cover the cost of that or the contingency was just a standard financial housekeeping measure but

01:01:16 but it it wouldn't have surprised me if we you know had had to find a bit more for the contingency that's quite common mr chairman i've got a couple more questions and two more uh things to show the witness i'm happy to

01:01:28 things to show the witness i'm happy to take the break now but i i i will get are they linked to what you they are well i should carry on from there and thank you mr chairman can we go please to your first witness statement page 16 paragraph 68

01:01:39 page 16 paragraph 68 first witness statement page 16 paragraph 68 and you say uh there at the cabinet meeting on the 18th of july 2013 mpb4 following more detailed costings in the decision to retender

01:01:50 the decision to retender the cabinet was asked to increase the budget for the refurbishment of grenfell tower to 9.7 million pounds uh and then in your second statement if we can just look at that page 14 paragraph 46

01:02:03 paragraph 46 you're answering a question there about the basis of the decision to retender and you say this any decision to retender

01:02:10 retender would be a decision for the tmo the cabinet were only required to authorize the finance for the project do you recall asking why the project was being retended

01:02:23 um i don't think i asked but i think there may have been a discussion about why it was being retended do you recall that do you call

01:02:31 call do you recall somebody asking if not you the question why is the project being retended

01:02:38 retended i think the question was asked but i really can't remember now who asked it or the

01:02:43 or the um all the detail of it i think it was just that the um i think that originally been an expectation that the work could all be done as

01:02:50 done as as one by one contractor um and i think as

01:02:54 as as things developed it became clear that that actually wasn't possible and that you would need somebody separate to do the tower because the skills of the contractor weren't appropriate i think it was something like that but and i

01:03:06 it was something like that but and i don't think it was my question that prompted that no um you say you do recall a question being asked i think so yeah and you've given us i think a hint of what the answer was can you be a little clearer perhaps in your recollection

01:03:17 clearer perhaps in your recollection of what the answer was to the question why is the grenfell tower project being retended

01:03:25 well i assume either the tender was the the tenders received were too high

01:03:32 too high or that we had expected that the contractor working on the academy and the leisure center would work on the tower and then had found that for some reason they couldn't or they

01:03:43 for some reason they couldn't or they were too expensive or they couldn't do it on time or i think i'm now beginning to remember that

01:03:49 that i think there was concern that the academy was taking longer than expected and it was very important that it opened on time in order to take the first year of admissions by

01:04:00 first year of admissions by september i can't remember which year it was now and because that was overrunning the leisure center which was my particular interest was also running behind and we'd hoped

01:04:11 was also running behind and we'd hoped it would be open because we weren't having to

01:04:13 having to make alternative arrangements so i think there was some worry that you know the projects which were being handled were taking longer than expected and perhaps if the price was also not right we thought it better to

01:04:26 also not right we thought it better to start again or the better if the tmo started again or they thought it was better if they started again but uh did you have any particular views about lead bitter from what you knew about the calc

01:04:38 from what you knew about the calc project

01:04:39 project i remember being worried that it was all taking too long and um you know trying to hurry things along or you know encourage my officer team to

01:04:50 you know encourage my officer team to encourage things along and i think they were frustrated it was not happening as quickly as we would have liked but uh right and and how would

01:05:01 was there any discussion about how uh not having ledbitter for the grenfell tower project would assist the calc project

01:05:08 project to meet it its target date for completion no i don't think so i think it was more that there was a feeling that they weren't

01:05:19 there was a feeling that they weren't appropriate for handling the tower this was quite a different type of project with residents remaining

01:05:25 remaining in situ this work seemed to be overrunning i think the tender was high so i think the view was this wasn't uh

01:05:35 uh it wasn't the road to pursue right thank you mr chairman is that a convenient moment

01:05:39 moment yes i think it is thank you um we're going to have a short break now mr paget brown

01:05:44 brown we'll come back at 25 to 4 um so if you'd like to go to the usher the only other thing is please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room all right thank you very much

01:06:02 all right 25 to 4 please

01:20:36 yes would you ask mr padgett brown to come back in please thank you

01:20:51 all right mr patrick brown ready to carry on thank you good thank you very much yes mr thank you mr chairman mr patrick brown i get to ask you some questions now about your interactions with the tmo i'm going to start with um a paragraph

01:21:04 i'm going to start with um a paragraph 57 of your first witness statement page 13 please and you say there although i was not directly involved

01:21:15 directly involved uh with housing issues i recall that rbkc was concerned at some aspects of the tma's performance around 2006 to 2010 the issues related to void properties uncollected service charges

01:21:27 properties uncollected service charges payable by leaseholders and problems with timely repairs would be regularly reported to the cap to the cabinet member for housing and to the housing and property scrutiny committee

01:21:36 committee in paragraph 58 you say while i was leader having been aware of previous poor performance of the tmo but having been advised the performance was now improving i met the ceo robert black informally three to four times a year

01:21:48 informally three to four times a year the issues we discussed were largely driven

01:21:50 driven by correspondence i had received about a range of issues what was the basis of your awareness that the performance of the tmo had previously been poor um well largely anecdotal from

01:22:02 um well largely anecdotal from colleagues who you know again in the margins of meetings or events where you met colleagues and they would say you know there are issues with the tmo it doesn't seem to be um

01:22:15 the tmo it doesn't seem to be um firing in all cylinders there seemed to be difficulties structural difficulties with repairs these leaseholder service charges i think became an issue which elected members would see

01:22:26 would see because leaseholders would write you know very

01:22:29 know very very powerful letters saying you know how appalling it was that their service charges were so high and then find that they hadn't been collected and then they were trying to collect them it

01:22:40 then they were trying to collect them it was a very one was very aware that there was an issue here that was not not going well where you were aware

01:22:48 aware during your time as deputy leader and later leader of a report called the mamoli report from april 2009

01:22:57 well um no i think i must have become aware of it since the events of 2017 right after the fire yes right uh but not before that don't think so

01:23:09 uh but not before that don't think so but i did know there was an issue with the tmo and there were some changes and no doubt they derived from that report but that would have been a matter for the then cabinet member and i see well let's just let's just have a very quick look at it um

01:23:21 very quick look at it um iws 401462

01:23:26 i'll just show you the first page of it there it is um is this does this look familiar to you from any time before the fire no no and before 2013 when you became

01:23:37 no and before 2013 when you became leader

01:23:38 leader did you have only limited interaction with the tmo

01:23:44 yes and did you begin meeting robert black because of your concerns about previous poor performance or concerns that were held by others about previous poor performance

01:23:56 previous poor performance um neither i understood that you know over the previous two or three or four years before i'd become leader the tmo performance was beginning to improve

01:24:07 tmo performance was beginning to improve i felt it wasn't an area i knew a huge amount about and i thought as leader i ought to

01:24:12 ought to meet people that we did have important partnerships with so obviously the tma was was one um and you know my mail bag would have letters in

01:24:25 my mail bag would have letters in occasionally about repairs or it would have something about anti-social behavior i just thought it was important i kept in touch with the

01:24:31 with the chief exec of the tmo in a fairly informal way so these were informal yes why informal um i think there were enough formal structures and i didn't want to either cut across the cabinet

01:24:42 want to either cut across the cabinet member had his responsibilities and regular meetings with the with the chief executive or the housing and property scrutiny committee who had a you know a proper and

01:24:50 and uh consequential role in uh holding the tmo to account but i thought you know a friendly cup of coffee every three or four months and a discussion about certainly what was in my mailbox and what was probably in his

01:25:01 my mailbox and what was probably in his was a good thing to do right um let's look at your second statement please uh and in that can we please go to paragraph 32

01:25:13 paragraph 32 and where you say they when these meetings were not minuted perhaps we don't need to to go to the paragraph um it's on page ten you say the rock the meetings i had with robert black were informal and not

01:25:24 robert black were informal and not minuted yes the main informal the main formal interface between rbkc and tmo was through the housing department who would have more regular and detailed meetings which would be recorded yes

01:25:38 why weren't those meetings minuted is it for the same reason that you gave before um which explained why they were informal yes i think once you have a a formal meeting

01:25:49 i think once you have a a formal meeting round a table with minutes taken it it changes the whole nature of the meeting and i wanted it to be informal and to

01:25:57 and to establish a relationship with robert black to understand the issues that were worrying him and the tmo and i didn't want to cut across you know other meetings which are quite properly taking place between the cabinet member and the director of housing and probably

01:26:09 and the director of housing and probably the chief executive so it just seemed to me something that i should be doing as leader and could do and

01:26:14 and i prefer them not to be minuted and there was no great well i wasn't sort of walking out of the meeting saying you know we've got 14 things to do and i can't remember what they are well that's what i was going to ask you

01:26:26 well that's what i was going to ask you did although they may not have been minuted

01:26:28 minuted were there were any records made while you were at these meetings either by you or from what you could observe by robert black

01:26:35 black um i yeah i i had a a notebook and i would

01:26:39 would scroll down a note or two so it might remind me to discuss something with rockfielding melon or with uh nicholas holgate uh or to perhaps follow something up that he'd mentioned

01:26:50 follow something up that he'd mentioned but these were notes for me made by me um and they they were sort of made memoirs they weren't a formal minute of everything that we'd discussed and

01:27:00 and action points they were just just to remind me to follow up on particular issues

01:27:08 if the tmo is intended to operate as an arms length contractor for rbkc would you not want to have an agreed record of what transpired at meetings however informal between the

01:27:20 at meetings however informal between the men at the top of each of those organizations

01:27:25 well um i hadn't thought that i thought there were enough formal structures to manage that important relationship and enough documents and bits of paper i thought occasionally it was useful just

01:27:37 thought occasionally it was useful just to have a

01:27:38 to have a conversation for me to have a look before before we had the meeting through my

01:27:42 my list of correspondence look at look at what

01:27:45 what if anything people had raised with me and then i could raise it with robert black

01:27:49 black i think he was quite keen to talk about um how the tmo was improving and what he what he'd been doing and i thought an informal meeting was better than a formal one

01:28:00 meeting was better than a formal one right

01:28:01 right in the event that there was a an action that arose or perhaps a disagreement between you and robert black about who said what at what meeting you would look at your day book would you have a look in my day book i might

01:28:14 you have a look in my day book i might have a word with rock or with um laura johnson but i didn't want to cut across what they were doing i didn't think that was going to be helpful um now during your time as leader were you aware of how oversight

01:28:25 leader were you aware of how oversight supervision of the tmo was conducted by rbkc's housing department um only only in broad terms that i thought could you briefly describe

01:28:36 i thought could you briefly describe those broad terms i think rockfielding melon would have held regular policy boards and very often certainly at his policy boards i would expect the director of housing for rbkc

01:28:47 expect the director of housing for rbkc to be present and appropriate members of her staff she and rock thought best and i'm sure that

01:28:54 that regularly they will have had robert black and other senior officers from the tmo

01:28:59 tmo to those meetings and they would have discussed issues of mutual concern the housing revenue account the great problem really which came to light of the government cutting

01:29:11 of the government cutting instructing a one percent cut in rent which i think was a big problem for the tmo um so yes there were there were those structures and then and then accountability to the housing and

01:29:22 accountability to the housing and property scrutiny committee and were you aware of which officers in the housing department were responsible for oversight of the tmo you knew who they were um i knew them by name i don't think i'd

01:29:33 i knew them by name i don't think i'd necessarily met them or if i hadn't been fleeting

01:29:36 fleeting and you obviously knew laura johnson yes you had direct interaction with laura johnson yes what about amanda johnson uh no i'd seen her name probably on the occasional document she may well have come occasionally to a

01:29:48 she may well have come occasionally to a leaders group i'm not sure if there was something specific that she could comment on but i see a lot of offices and i'm afraid i can't always tally up names and faces right with the same apply to celia chaliscan

01:29:57 chaliscan yes right were you aware that key performance indicators were used to perform monitor the performance but of the tmo by our bkc uh

01:30:12 that was the normal way in which all sorts of organizations including council departments and contractors were monitored so i'm not specifically familiar with the kpis for the tmo but i'm i'm not at least

01:30:24 the tmo but i'm i'm not at least surprised there were some i i see did you ever become familiar with

01:30:29 with what the kpis used by rbkc to monitor the tmo

01:30:33 the tmo were um not item by item no

01:30:39 but i'm sure they would have covered things like voids and the speed with which you re-let a property or outstanding arrears or service charges

01:30:48 charges or the number of cleaning upsets i think a big issue actually going back to the conversations i would have with robert black

01:30:54 black and things that were in my mailbag related to repair so i'm sure there were kpis on repairs and speed of repairs did you ever question whether the kpis were appropriate or covered the right things no and why is that

01:31:09 no and why is that um well

01:31:12 um well i don't think i was necessarily professionally well enough qualified to know whether they were or weren't and i'm rely you know i have full confidence in laura johnson and

01:31:23 full confidence in laura johnson and rockfielding mellon if they felt that there needed to be additional kpis and i'd had kpis in areas which i've been responsible they're not always um they're not quite the the the uh

01:31:34 um they're not quite the the the uh what's the the magic tool you might uh expect them to be they they often count things but they don't measure quality very well and were you aware that fire safety was not the subject of a kpi uh

01:31:47 not the subject of a kpi uh no did you assume that it was um no

01:31:56 um no i knew there were other ways of monitoring fire risk and measures which were being put in place which i didn't know were being put in place but i'm not sure i'd thought a kpi was the

01:32:09 i'm not sure i'd thought a kpi was the only or the best tool for doing that isn't that something you should have known as leader namely that there was no kpi used by rbkc for monitoring tmo's activity in

01:32:22 rbkc for monitoring tmo's activity in respect of fire safety well in retrospect yes i should have known that but i didn't at the time and it wasn't something which wasn't you know i was aware of or concerned about but i should have been

01:32:33 concerned about but i should have been i'm sure

01:32:34 i'm sure you do accept that yes yes and uh if we go to your second witness statement paragraph 31 on page 10

01:32:43 you you say this

01:32:49 uh and it's six lines down i'm aware that the tma also produced annual and mid-year performance reports i do not recall whether i received copies of these or in the event of copies being sent to my

01:33:00 in the event of copies being sent to my office if i read them

01:33:04 i as leader i would receive copies of all scrutiny meeting papers but would normally only read into a particular meeting if directed to consider a particular issue or if i wanted specific information perhaps for a speech or external meeting

01:33:16 perhaps for a speech or external meeting counselor rockfielding mellon would have would also have received the housing and property scrutiny committee papers in his role as cabinet member for housing property and regeneration and i would have expected him to raise any specific concerns with me

01:33:29 to raise any specific concerns with me given the history of poor performance at the tmo that you have told us about why would you not have read the annual the mid-year performance reports

01:33:38 reports as a matter of course even if just to skim read them and see what they were saying

01:33:44 saying um i think occasionally i would have will have glanced at the reports of the housing and property scrutiny committee um but as i've said here there are a lot of these reports coming in from the

01:33:55 of these reports coming in from the different scrutiny committees and other council committee meetings and you just simply couldn't keep pace with the quantity and detail of the material contained in them and that's why you

01:34:06 contained in them and that's why you have a cabinet and why you have a i'm absolutely confident in rockfielding melons

01:34:12 melons attention to all those details and key performance indicators and other matters contained in the in the reports um and as i say i would have an informal discussion with robert black i might occasionally just

01:34:23 occasionally just flick to a housing and property scrutiny uh report but uh i think about if i did that it was probably only once or maybe twice did you take it on trust that mr rockfielding mellon was performing his

01:34:35 rockfielding mellon was performing his oversight role of the tmo appropriately well not just on trust i knew that he was i knew there were you know regular policy board meetings that he was in regular contact with

01:34:46 he was in regular contact with uh the the director of housing at rbkc and the tmo senior people um and i thought he was very conscientious in the work he was doing

01:34:57 in the work he was doing i mean we've looked at the constitution do you accept that under the constitution you were ultimately responsible as leader for ensuring that he was performing his role uh

01:35:06 role uh properly as deputy leader as a cabinet member for property housing and regeneration yes but i had no reason to think he wasn't

01:35:17 wasn't and you may have no reason to think he wasn't but what did you actively do to hold him to account so that you could be satisfied yourself that your own obligations to supervise him were being

01:35:29 obligations to supervise him were being discharged in full well that's why i think the meeting at the beginning of the year with each cabinet member where i could uh cross question them about what they were doing and what the issues were what concerns they had what

01:35:40 issues were what concerns they had what relationships with external organizations they had you that helps you to form a judgment on whether your cabinet members are you know fulfilling their duties and

01:35:51 you know fulfilling their duties and responsibilities set out in the in the constitution and i had no reason to think that rock was was not doing that now sticking with your

01:36:00 your second statement please can we go forward to page 16 and look at paragraph 51 together

01:36:13 you're asked a question at the top of the page the paragraph 73 that's your first statement you state that with regard to the gt project you expected all designs and materials to meet regulatory

01:36:24 meet regulatory and statutory requirements and that you have the same expectations relating to fire safety measures question at a what did you base these expectations on and your answer is in relation to the

01:36:35 and your answer is in relation to the works themselves it was the expectation of rbkc and i would suggest any local authority and developer

01:36:41 developer that all council activities must conform to the relevant legislation the detailed management of the project was undertaken by the tmo who would have their own responsibilities and expectations that any works undertaken would be in

01:36:53 any works undertaken would be in compliance with the various statutory and regulatory obligations what did you understand rbkc's counsellor's role to be if any in relation to ensuring

01:37:06 to be if any in relation to ensuring fire safety compliance during the refurbishment of the grenfell tower property itself um well the first thing to distinguish

01:37:18 um well the first thing to distinguish is that

01:37:18 is that um it was very clear that the contract for managing the refurbishment of the tower was a tmo contract and government guidance made it clear that if you wish

01:37:29 guidance made it clear that if you wish to qualify this was for an earlier round of funding but if you wish to qualify for that funding

01:37:35 funding you had to make sure your capital works team was a tmo team and not a council team

01:37:43 team and i think at one stage it had been suggested that that shouldn't be the case the council might continue to oversee capital works undertaken by the um tmo and the the the ruling came back no

01:37:54 tmo and the the the ruling came back no you can't do that you must you must evolve all of that so i think the councillor's role to that extent

01:38:00 extent will be to ensure that the um work employed all the right contractors who could give advice uh

01:38:10 uh on those different you know it's a very complex thing refurbishing a tower and um i think when that when the works were done there were all sorts of subcontractors and parties that the council would have expected to be there

01:38:21 council would have expected to be there to advise on those on those different matters and just just picking up on that last part of the answer you say the councillor's role to that extent would be to ensure that

01:38:32 to that extent would be to ensure that the work employed all the right contractors who could give advice on those different things how did you understand councillors would go about ensuring

01:38:44 councillors would go about ensuring that the tmao employed all the right contractors well i would expect there to be regular updates to the housing and property scrutiny committee on the project and

01:38:55 scrutiny committee on the project and what was

01:38:55 what was being done and who was doing it and to whom the

01:38:58 whom the contract had been let um and what works were were programmed what works were going to be done and then the expectation i think every councillor would have right across the

01:39:10 councillor would have right across the council

01:39:11 council is that you know there's very strict regulatory guidance in all of these matters and all those professional contractors uh would be expected to meet them and

01:39:19 them and they would have much more detail than an individual counsellor on uh particular building standards and things like that right so did you expect that

01:39:27 that that councillors particularly uh rockfielding mellon in his role as cabinet member after 2013 uh would would want to understand uh what contractual

01:39:39 want to understand uh what contractual arrangements the tmo had made and had not made for the refurbishment of grenfell tower well yes i would expect him to understand who was who was involved in the in the

01:39:50 who was involved in the in the refurbishment and what their different roles

01:39:52 roles were right no i think the the detail for that would be with the tma project team who were doing it but i would expect rock to receive reports on who they were and uh what their particular responsibilities were do you know

01:40:04 responsibilities were do you know whether he ever did i don't know that i'd be surprised if he didn't but that's regulation you'd be surprised if he didn't yes if he didn't have a sort of working document that told him who was doing what and what rydens were doing and what

01:40:17 what and what rydens were doing and what other contractors were doing i would expect him to learn about that

01:40:25 would you would you have expected him to ask questions about why uh or about whether there was a fire safety consultant or fire safety professional involved with the grenfell

01:40:38 professional involved with the grenfell tower project given particularly that there had been one involved with the cult project

01:40:45 um i would have expected the tmo to appoint

01:40:51 appoint a suitable contractor and for rock to know who that was yes thank you

01:41:12 were you aware that the grenfell tower project was by far and away the biggest capital project

01:41:19 project certainly capital refurbishment project the tmo had managed to date when i say to date 2012-13

01:41:28 um well no except that the decent homes initiative which was some

01:41:36 was some 10 years before i think was quite a big program i think it was several million several tens of million pounds probably um and i think they'd managed that or

01:41:47 um and i think they'd managed that or quite successfully so um i see what you mean so the decent homes project maybe may have been the largest monetarily um when i asked my question let me try it differently were you aware

01:41:58 let me try it differently were you aware that the grenfell tower project as a single capital project for a single property was by far the biggest project that the tma had ever had to manage um no

01:42:10 um no you weren't aware of that no no as leader can you explain why you weren't aware of that well i don't think i would have asked as leader what projects they had

01:42:21 projects they had been undertaking in the previous sort of 13 years if you went from the year 2000 to 2013

01:42:26 to 2013 i'm sure lots of buildings were refurbished lots of works carried out and i wouldn't have necessarily have been surprised to find them doing it the refurbishment of a tower i mean towers do have to be

01:42:38 tower i mean towers do have to be refurbished different works have to be done on towers heating systems replaced so

01:42:42 so i don't think the fact that several things were being done at grenfell i don't think would have particularly surprised really the reason i ask is that this project had to come to full council for approval as you agreed earlier yes

01:42:54 as you agreed earlier yes the full cabinet yes full cabinet yeah for

01:42:57 for for approval as you agreed earlier and at that stage did it not occur to you that this in fact was the biggest project that the tmo had ever managed as client um

01:43:10 managed as client um no i i thought they had been managing other refurbishments and projects uh and this may be the biggest but uh it shouldn't have been

01:43:21 but uh it shouldn't have been there are lots of smaller housing associations who do big projects and uh this is a big project and

01:43:28 and we had found the funding to to do it so it there were going to be lots of contractors and employed and consultants and advisors so it didn't seem to me to be an undue stretch but uh

01:43:41 did you yourself as leader or deputy leader before that taking the steps to ensure that the project manager sitting in the tmo at the time responsible for the project

01:43:54 responsible for the project and those who were overseeing him all then her were suitably trained experienced and qualified to manage the project

01:44:06 and qualified to manage the project well i had visited the tmo and i had visited

01:44:10 visited the i think the project team and uh the officer con concerned and looked at drawings and had a sort of short presentation as as i went there and i thought that he

01:44:21 as i went there and i thought that he seemed to be very much in control of what needed to be done i don't think no no i didn't leave with any alarm bells ringing that this was a project beyond anybody's scope i think they were who was the he

01:44:33 scope i think they were who was the he just referred to in that answer i think it was

01:44:38 it was i think it was peter madison who showed me some

01:44:42 me some drawings of grenfell and the proposed and described the proposed work so this must have been quite early on in my leadership because i think the work wasn't yet started or if it had started it was at a

01:44:53 started or if it had started it was at a very

01:44:55 very early stage right so sometime after may 2013 yes and let me just ask the question again

01:45:08 did you take any steps particularly looking at peter madison or perhaps claire williams who took on the project manager ship if you like

01:45:16 like from september 2013 did you take any steps to ensure yourselves that those people

01:45:21 people were suitably trained experienced and qualified to manage it and to oversee the management of it uh no i didn't and why is that um

01:45:34 well it seemed to me that they were senior members of the tmo that that they would have the appropriate skills for handling the refurbishment

01:45:46 skills for handling the refurbishment i'm not sure i would have had the skills to see that there were skills they didn't have and i was expecting that they would be hiring a raft of advisors consultants a lot of

01:45:58 raft of advisors consultants a lot of the budget was going to be allocated to that

01:46:01 that who would you know deal with the different issues be it the heating system or the the new windows or fire safety

01:46:10 safety and that was the way large projects were handled you know across the council and it didn't seem to me why it should be unduly different at the tmo well let me explore that did you realize

01:46:23 well let me explore that did you realize at the time that the grenfell tower refurbishment project was the first major high-rise overcladding project the tmo had ever done um

01:46:36 no i had thought that the hazelwood tower and a dare tower had been been thermally insulated some some long time before but um i thought during the existence of the tma so

01:46:48 the existence of the tma so no i don't think it crossed my mind particularly that this was a strange project or a project with which they wouldn't be familiar right did you yourself take any steps to make sure

01:46:59 steps to make sure or to investigate that the tmo executives responsible for the grenfell tower project knew enough about cladding a high-rise to be able to hold their contractors

01:47:11 to be able to hold their contractors to account in compliance with all the legal requirements that applied and all the industry guidance that applied uh no i didn't and why is that um i'm not sure i didn't think it occurred to

01:47:23 not sure i didn't think it occurred to me at

01:47:23 me at the time of the visit that um fitting cladding to a building um was an unduly um this was happening all over london it seemed to me in as i said in many cases that kensington

01:47:35 as i said in many cases that kensington chelsea was sort of behind the curve on it and that um a big con when i heard i think ryden's going to be the chief contractor that doing this was not a

01:47:46 a this this was not rocket science lots of buildings have cladding put on as we as we discovered i mean this is something housing associations and councils and almost have been doing for

01:47:59 councils and almost have been doing for 15 years and we were a little bit behind the curb and as i understood it the senior officers that the tmo all had um you know cvs that were appropriate they come from

01:48:11 cvs that were appropriate they come from the house

01:48:11 the house you know they were housing professionals so did you yourself personally take any active steps to monitor the project um well i think i i think i made a hard

01:48:24 um well i think i i think i made a hard hat visit as they call it probably about halfway through i can't remember that somewhere in the documents it lists when um and i as i say i was lobbied about the

01:48:35 and i as i say i was lobbied about the boxing club and the uh and the nursery but beyond that no

01:48:44 you say we don't need to go to it uh in your first statement of paragraph 58 page 13 that the issues you discussed were driven largely by the correspondence you'd received from a range of issues or about a range

01:48:56 from a range of issues or about a range of issues

01:48:57 of issues um you'd received i think uh issues complaints concerns from residents of the lancaster west estate particularly grenfell tower

01:49:08 estate particularly grenfell tower uh yes yes were you not concerned to check up

01:49:12 check up on the major capital project that the tmo is undertaking so far as concerned those residents well now i think i think there's two issues here if i can um pick them one is um i had received correspondence about

01:49:23 um i had received correspondence about the lancaster west estate these are the finger blocks which weren't going to be refurbished and very early on i'd been written to about that then when the work started i think there were

01:49:34 started i think there were concerns about delays it was taking time to get the works underway but i think rock was handling that then i got a complaint which i referred

01:49:46 then i got a complaint which i referred to earlier which i've admitted from the statement from mr daphon about the wanting to make a complaint about the windows and the planners and the windows which i took as a technical uh matter and i had to get advice on you know how

01:49:57 and i had to get advice on you know how you deal with complaints and that kind of thing um as i said i made the occasional visit to grenfell while the works were underway i was pleased to see what was being done but no i'm not a

01:50:08 see what was being done but no i'm not a technician so some of those issues would not have been raised by me but i would have expected them to be raised by professional people that have been hired to raise them fire risk assessments i just want to ask

01:50:20 fire risk assessments i just want to ask you one or two questions about that topic

01:50:23 topic were you aware during your time as leader that there was an uh an ongoing programme of fire risk assessments in done in relation to the tmo housing stock

01:50:34 stock um yes because i think they've been a bad fire in in um in a block in southwark and all sorts of actions had flowed from that and that

01:50:47 actions had flowed from that and that included and affected the the tmo that's the lack of house fire the lack of house fire in july 2009 yes did you ever receive any reports

01:50:56 reports in relation to the progress of the fire risk assessment program or actions taken to complete items listed

01:51:07 taken to complete items listed in the action plans relating to them um i didn't but i think the housing and property scrutiny committee would have received

01:51:15 received updates and i think i'd understood either from robert black or laura johnson that there was a program of replacing i think assessing um fire door

01:51:27 i think assessing um fire door safety after the after the lacking or house fire i think there's two types of doors as well as if i've understood it one is the fire door onto the

01:51:38 common staircase or the lift area and the other is the front door of the individual property and i think they all had to be looked at and i think in many cases replaced and i

01:51:49 and i think in many cases replaced and i think there was a fire door replacement program did you keep

01:51:53 keep tabs on that um not in any great detail no right

01:51:57 no right were you aware of the identity of the people conducting the fire risk assessments from your time as deputy leader or leader

01:52:05 leader um no i knew there were fire risk assessments and i think i knew the tmo had a in-house specialist who hired to do it in house did you think i'm not sure it was in-house or whether

01:52:16 i'm not sure it was in-house or whether they had a i don't know a contractor to do them but they had somebody they had i think they had taken steps into the canal house to do more fire risk assessments in line with

01:52:27 more fire risk assessments in line with what the lfb requirements right really what i'm going to try to get a sense of is how much you knew about all of that um a bit but not a lot right what bit the um doors were being assessed and if

01:52:40 the um doors were being assessed and if necessary replaced um and that there were two types of door um and i think i think i've been advised

01:52:52 um and i think i think i've been advised probably much later when there was another fire in a different block that there have been an issue with um the doors closing and i think they're supposed to have an automatic closer and in fact i remember that from my

01:53:04 in fact i remember that from my i think that goes back quite a long time and sometimes those those closers are disabled and um the door doesn't close and then you get a smoke egress yes is that the dare fire yes

01:53:16 yes is that the dare fire yes tower fire fire um can i ask you to look at your notebook which is

01:53:28 rbk3060883

01:53:33 uh and at page 13 and that's page one in page 13 you see that there's a

01:53:41 there's a a note on

01:53:45 a note on 13th of april 2016.

01:53:50 now it looks as if um that is a post-it note but um perhaps you can help us so i think i think it may have gone the poster no i

01:54:01 think it may have gone the poster no i did see it now it's disappeared uh it should be on your screen ah it is now oh i see but they go small yes

01:54:10 yes yes in fact they're it looks like there are two parts to it there's a post-it note which says meeting with robert uh 13 april 16 ad air fire and then underneath that

01:54:22 air fire and then underneath that there's a date 13 april 13.4.16 robert black it looks as if that latter date is actually in your notebook does this record

01:54:35 notebook does this record a meeting with robert black that you had on the 13th of april 2016 to discuss the uh adair fire

01:54:46 the dare tower fire um i'd well there clearly it was a meeting with robert black um i don't think it was specifically to

01:54:57 um i don't think it was specifically to discuss the adelaide and the post-it note might either be to remind me to discuss it with him or because we did discuss it and i but i'm not sure why i put that date on it is that your

01:55:08 put that date on it is that your handwriting yes no it's my note definitely um i mean slightly unfair to you look we scrolled down a little bit on page 13 and see the whole of the entry under that date if you look down the text you can see

01:55:20 if you look down the text you can see four lines up from the bottom it says adair tower fire checks smoke should have stayed indoors enforcement notices

01:55:29 notices in or on automatic door closers uh and then can you read the last line to me

01:55:36 to me please uh parking enforcement on tmo land

01:55:39 land parking enforcement on tmo land do you recall this meeting

01:55:44 independent well i don't recall it in in any detail but clearly it took place and it looks like a regular routine sort of informal meeting with robert black and as i was trying to explain earlier i would

01:55:56 explain earlier i would write down the odd note during the meeting and um that's what i've done here is this a good example of what you told us earlier about yeah it's not very grammatical but it is yes but i think we'll forgive you for that um but did mr black tell you that

01:56:07 that um but did mr black tell you that as a consequence of the smoke dispersal through the building the tmo faced an enforcement notice from the london fire brigade for the absence of door closes

01:56:17 well i've written that down and i think he must have i think he must have told me that yes i don't think i'd known before the meeting and it looks like a note yeah and i think

01:56:29 note yeah and i think i think subsequently i discussed it with nicholas holgate and he told me there was an issue with smoking the smoke in the block and i think the fire brigade had to evacuate the whole block or certainly a big chunk of it

01:56:40 of it because doors had been open and they should have been closed and smoke had got out

01:56:44 got out yes did that alarm you yeah discovered that fact yes it did what did you follow up with mr black to see whether the enforcement notice

01:56:51 notice had been properly uh complied with i don't remember following it up with him but

01:57:00 him but i think it would have been on i'm sure it would have been on everybody's radar so rockfielding mellon laura johnson nicholas holgate was obviously on mine to an extent um and i think it came back to something to

01:57:13 and i think it came back to something to do with closers or closers um and i think that there'd be an issue about you know who was going to fund door closes door closers yes do you remember that do you remember a

01:57:25 do you remember that do you remember a discussion about funding a door closer program no i don't but i'm sure somebody had a conversation about it i'm not sure it was me but i'm sure that would have been an issue i don't

01:57:36 that would have been an issue i don't know how extensive that notice was and whether it was just door closes in the deck because there were two towers a dare tower and hazelwood tower which i mentioned earlier which i think had got cladding on the outside

01:57:47 cladding on the outside um and so i suppose door closers would need to be replaced in both blocks and then probably elsewhere i'd perhaps say i don't know the extent of the lfb notice do you remember any discussion about the

01:57:59 do you remember any discussion about the length of programme to be to be put in place in response to the lfb's

01:58:06 the lfb's uh requirement and no i don't you don't remember a discussion about whether it should be a three-year program or a five-year program

01:58:15 uh no i don't remember that um i think wouldn't there be a prioritization of i think i think with the lfb don't they

01:58:26 i think i think with the lfb don't they want high risk medium risk low risk and then you

01:58:29 then you you start with your high risk and work through them is that how you understood it to work yes i think i think that's how what i did understand that that's how the fire brigade looked at things

01:58:41 how the fire brigade looked at things and you i think after la canal house there have been a ranking of

01:58:47 of priority high priority medium priority low priority and i assume that that's what

01:58:52 what happened with the with the door closer yes did you assume perhaps more generally that the tma would would follow the high medium and low risk assessments conducted by uh either identified by the lfb or

01:59:03 uh either identified by the lfb or conducted or identified by the fire risk assessor yeah i think my understanding was there were regular meetings between the lfb and the tmo and um the the tma

01:59:14 and the tmo and um the the tma would be complying with the lfp requirements that was your expectation yes

01:59:18 yes right did you as a result of being told about this enforcement notice make any further inquiries about the fire risk assessment program

01:59:30 fire risk assessment program and and how that was going um no i don't think so did the arrival of these enforcement notices lead you to question

01:59:41 lead you to question uh whether or not the fire risk assessor whom the tma were using was any good

01:59:50 no it didn't no why is that um i think because it comes back to the point about key performance indicators you can fit

02:00:03 performance indicators you can fit closers or closers may then be removed from doors so there's an awful lot of you could do a fire risk assessment and say well the closes have been

02:00:12 been fitted or the doors fit or the doors comply

02:00:15 comply and then you might find that actually it went back three weeks later and the things were different i think it's a very fast moving thing so no i didn't i didn't follow it

02:00:26 thing so no i didn't i didn't follow it up and i do realize there is an issue about closing closing flat doors

02:00:31 doors did you think at the time that all that may be difficult to keep up with tenants removing their door closes for various reasons nonetheless you needed to have a a regime of regular

02:00:43 you needed to have a a regime of regular inspection and maintenance to make sure as best you could that door closes remained in place and working

02:00:51 working that did that occur to you as a result of this meeting um it didn't occur to me but um i think it would come back to the issue of repairs and there is a big issue which they did

02:01:02 and there is a big issue which they did explain to me at the tma again in one of my one of my visits repairs and gaining access to property is quite a big challenge for the tmo very often um you find that when you

02:01:15 very often um you find that when you when you go to a property the tenant's not there or it's not a convenient time to do the repair or that you need access to a different property so i think there is a real sort of endemic issue with the tmo about

02:01:27 sort of endemic issue with the tmo about um

02:01:27 um and this was the big issue always about repairs i think throughout the whole time i was leader that getting them done in a in a prompt way it was not nearly as easy as it as it sounded and your kpis might look

02:01:39 as it sounded and your kpis might look very bad and all the rest but the real issue is gaining access to the property

02:01:43 property um and i'm putting the putting the problem right and i think that's how far door closes would also you'd need the same thing if you were going to get in and

02:01:53 in and change them and then check they were still all right a year later can we then look at tmo10017254 please

02:02:09 this is a notice of deficiency issued by the lf epa to janice ray at the tmo dated the 17th of november 2016 and you can see that the premises

02:02:20 and you can see that the premises concerned are grenfell tower and in the first paragraph you can see that action is required by the 18th of may 2017 just at the foot

02:02:31 by the 18th of may 2017 just at the foot of your

02:02:32 of your screen were you told about this notice of deficiency at the time november 2016 um no i don't think i was no

02:02:43 is that because of a failure of procedural processes or because the procedural process at rbkc was not designed to get that kind of information up to you

02:02:56 i'm not sure i'd have to look at more detail here about what was what was not in compliance with the uh fire safety order and whether it was a

02:03:06 was a a minor thing or a big thing and was this a problem with the refurbishment that had been exacerbated by the refurbishment or was it so i probably need to see more of the letter but wouldn't necessarily expect that to come

02:03:17 wouldn't necessarily expect that to come to me i would expect it to go to the tmo um and for them to comply with it yes i

02:03:28 and for them to comply with it yes i think they have regular liaison with the london fire brigade so um but i'd need to know more about this i think well let me help you page five we can see the schedule and there are three uh

02:03:42 and there are three uh points on that page uh which are picked up article 11 article 17

02:03:49 17 twice and uh they are about far doors in each case uh and

02:03:59 uh also uh the uh lack of self-closers on two particular flats if you look at the bottom of page five on the top of page

02:04:10 bottom of page five on the top of page six in the left in the left hand column and again under article 14 on page six

02:04:17 doors to flat 44 and 153 did not self-close

02:04:23 right as well as other things as well damage damage to the service duct on the eighth floor uh and uh fire action notice is not displayed in the common parts that matters of that nature

02:04:34 matters of that nature so does that help you with why this document

02:04:37 document wasn't uh what wasn't as it were escalated to you for you to know about yes can you just remind me of the date of it because was it while the works were still underway

02:04:48 it while the works were still underway and why

02:04:48 and why there were things in the corridors or was it when the work was over and done with

02:04:52 with uh it was when the work was well it was during the defects period i think but it was

02:04:56 was the 17th of november 2016. right so practical completion for the refurbishment had happened in the previous july yes no i'm not familiar with this right you're not uh

02:05:08 you're not uh are you surprised that you hadn't seen it before or i hadn't seen it at the time

02:05:15 well i always received reports where there had been a fire um i'm surprised somebody didn't mention this to me i have to say i would have thought it would have um

02:05:27 right been mentioned and i would obviously raise it robert black or with nicholas holgate or perhaps with laura johnson

02:05:32 johnson but no i hadn't seen that but i

02:05:37 right um let's then look at an email chain in january 2017. this is at rbk401038 please and we can start on page two of that run

02:05:50 and we can start on page two of that run with janice ray fording to robert black

02:05:57 uh a letter received from the lfb confirming that the work specified as necessary and the in the ad air tower enforcement notice had been carried out

02:06:09 had been carried out that's what the first paragraph says and if you go over the page up the page rather to page one and look at the foot of that page you can see that robert black forwards it in turn the same day to

02:06:20 forwards it in turn the same day to laura johnson and he says this uh laura for information somewhere it might be good to meet to look at how we respond to the fire brigade fabricators i think we are being driven down a road by a group which seems to be

02:06:31 down a road by a group which seems to be unaccountable is the overall responsibility for this moving to the mayor might give us and la uh political leaders to influence this area more

02:06:44 this area more did you did you have a discussion along these lines uh with mr black um

02:06:54 i did i don't think i don't quite understand the content of the letter i mean what what group which seems to be unaccountable was there some no i don't recognize this at all no well

02:07:05 no i don't recognize this at all no well let me

02:07:06 let me i'm not sure i've really contextualized it fully for you but but the context for this is the lfb making stringent uh demands on the tmo uh about um uh door closers particularly

02:07:20 um uh door closers particularly as a result of the adair tyre of uh enforcement notice and and i hope i'm not paraphrasing inaccurately uh what mr black seems to be saying here

02:07:31 uh what mr black seems to be saying here is is that uh the group lfb is unaccountable and uh well he says what he says there is the tenor of this discussion

02:07:42 is the tenor of this discussion something familiar to you no no it isn't right did mr black ever speak to you about bringing more political influence to bear in the tmo's dealings with the lfb

02:07:53 lfb uh no he didn't no i don't think so right

02:07:56 right what about uh to others to your knowledge did mr black ever make any of any suggestion of that sort to others within our bkc as far as you were aware um

02:08:08 as far as you were aware um no i'm not not aware of that

02:08:12 and i don't quite understand the reference to his overall responsibility for this moving to the mayor i'm not quite sure what what might be moving to the mayor no i knows uh nor's laura johnson uh in

02:08:24 no i knows uh nor's laura johnson uh in fact

02:08:24 fact in her in her message uh but um you can't help me with that i think

02:08:32 no i don't think i can right um mr chairman

02:08:36 chairman it's 4 25. i can start a new topic now we won't get very far um but i'm never keen to waste five minutes well i know you're not on the other hand uh it doesn't seem to me that you're

02:08:47 uh it doesn't seem to me that you're going to finish your questions i'm not mr brown this evening i'm not no in which case it might be better to call the halt at that point yes

02:08:58 the halt at that point yes mr president i don't know whether you were warned that we might need to ask you to come back tomorrow i had hoped that we would complete your evidence today but i'm afraid it hasn't turned out that way

02:09:09 i'm afraid it hasn't turned out that way um

02:09:10 um and i think possibly we might break at that point and get a fresh start tomorrow

02:09:15 tomorrow can you give us any idea of yes about an hour

02:09:18 hour before we finish and then it'll be the usual break and then further questions so

02:09:22 so so i would be optimistic about finishing uh well better than that i'm optimistically infinite optimistic but not with any guarantee

02:09:33 not with any guarantee that we'd finish uh completely by the morning break yes particularly the morning break was perhaps a little late all right well miss budget when i asked mr miller that because i thought it might help you to know roughly

02:09:45 might help you to know roughly how long we might need to detain you tomorrow

02:09:48 tomorrow um whatever mr millett says i think you would be

02:09:52 would be it would be reasonable for you to expect to get away from here by midday and if that helps you so much the better i'm sorry we've got to get you back but as it is we're going to stop there for the afternoon we'll resume please at

02:10:04 for the afternoon we'll resume please at 10 o'clock tomorrow thank you very much and i'm just asking you not to talk about your evidence or anything relating to it over the break all right sure good thank you thank you very much we'd like to give the usher we'll see you tomorrow

02:10:15 give the usher we'll see you tomorrow thank you

02:10:24 well mr millet thank you very much i'm sorry if i sounded a bit pessimistic but um always good to be realistic experience suggests that sometimes these things take a bit longer than you might expect so we'll stop there and

02:10:38 you might expect so we'll stop there and uh resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow though please thank you very much