Evidence from Nicholas Paget-Brown, former Leader of RBKC, regarding council fire safety policies, communication with residents, and oversight of the TMO during the Grenfell refurbishment.
00:00:27 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to continue hearing evidence from mr nicholas padgett brown formerly leader of the council so would you ask mr padgett
00:00:38 council so would you ask mr padgett brown to come back in please
00:00:50 good morning mr patrick brown good morning sir
00:00:54 all right all ready to carry on indeed good thank you very much yes yes mr chairman good morning good morning members of the panel good morning mr padgett brown um before i pick up the threads of where
00:01:05 um before i pick up the threads of where we were yesterday i'd like to revisit one point with you if i may and can i ask first please for you to be shown tmo one double zero one seven two five four one double zero
00:01:17 two five four one double zero one seven two five four
00:01:23 and that's the deficiency notice served on the tmo on the 17th of november 2016 in respect of grenfell tower
00:01:33 tower and we looked at that together yesterday at page 201 of the transcript can i please have up at the same time please
00:01:40 please if it's possible and if not it doesn't matter
00:01:43 matter um day 132 the transcript for yesterday at page 203
00:01:55 at page 203 uh and we can do that and uh at page 203 uh you you say in fact we probably want the bottom of page 202 as a little bit of a run-up um you say
00:02:07 as a little bit of a run-up um you say at line 22 at the bottom of page 202 i'm not familiar with this and question at line 24 are you surprised that you hadn't seen it before or hadn't seen it at the time and then
00:02:19 or hadn't seen it at the time and then if we go over to page 203 you say well i always received reports where there had been a fire i'm surprised somebody didn't mention this to me i have to say i would have thought it would have been mentioned and i obviously
00:02:31 mentioned and i obviously i'd have obviously raised it with robert black or with nicholas holgate or perhaps with laura johnson but no i hadn't seen that but i and then your question tails off your answer tails off
00:02:42 your answer tails off now just to be clear during your time as leader would you have expected to have been
00:02:48 have been informed about deficiency notices such as this
00:02:52 as this um no i wouldn't i would have been i would have expected to have been informed about any significant fire and i i was right but not not the detail of the follow-up and the and the notices no i
00:03:05 follow-up and the and the notices no i didn't receive those what about defeat what about enforcement notices
00:03:09 notices does the same apply to those uh yes in general terms i wouldn't have seen enforcement notices they would have been dealt with uh elsewhere in the council to your knowledge was there a policy in place dealing with how notices from the lf epa
00:03:24 dealing with how notices from the lf epa such as this deficiency notice or enforcement notices would be escalated within our bkc um i i don't know that i would have expected it to have been
00:03:35 expected it to have been escalated within the tenant management organization uh and the council to have received reports and updates through the housing and property scrutiny committee or the director of housing um i wouldn't necessarily have expected
00:03:47 um i wouldn't necessarily have expected it to cross my desk you wouldn't no right can we look at rbk401655
00:03:58 please
00:04:03 uh this is the first page of rbkc's fire safety policy this one dated january 2014 and it's the bibura corporate fire safety policy
00:04:14 bibura corporate fire safety policy for both hammersmith and fulham and rbkc as you can see at the foot of your screen
00:04:19 screen it's quite a striking first page is it something you think you might have seen before
00:04:25 i i think i have seen this in some shape or form i think maybe when it was produced i was given a copy and i might have flicked through it but not very much more than that
00:04:33 that right let's look at page two please it says under statement of intention the royal
00:04:41 royal borough of kensington and chelsea rbkc and the london borough of hammersmith and fulham recognize and accept their duty
00:04:49 duty as the responsible person and landlord to provide and maintain a work environment that reasonably protects all relevant persons from risks to them in case of fire you see that yes uh
00:05:00 in case of fire you see that yes uh were you aware that that was what this document was supposed to do yes this is about the corporate work environment for council staff officers and what processes are in place
00:05:11 place where there to be a fire on council property that's my understanding of the um the work environment and the um yes the work environment that's how you understood that
00:05:22 you understood that yes this document is it yes well let's just look in a little bit further at it can we look at introduction please on page three
00:05:31 uh it says this policy sets out the strategic fire safety vision and objectives of elected members
00:05:38 members and the executive joint management team it describes the way in which we effectively manage fire safety based upon british standard publication pas7
00:05:47 pas7 fire risk management system specification and then there's an organogram uh with plan do check act underneath it and you can see that
00:05:58 act underneath it and you can see that there's a circle in the middle with what that all means and underneath that it says the bottom of your screen this policy must be brought to the attention of all employees so that they
00:06:09 attention of all employees so that they are encouraged to cooperate and communicate any necessary information on fire safety matters throughout the organization in order to discharge their duties yes and then if you look at
00:06:22 yes and then if you look at the next page page four uh it says under paragraph
00:06:26 paragraph 2.2 scope of policy
00:06:31 this policy will apply to all premises where the council has a duty as the employer
00:06:36 employer and or as the responsible person as defined in the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 this policy will also apply to any premises whereby virtue of a
00:06:47 to any premises whereby virtue of a contract or tenancy agreement other parties have duties as the responsible person but where the council retains landlord responsibilities a local fire policy for residential
00:06:58 a local fire policy for residential housing based on the housing stock risk profile
00:07:00 profile will be put in place by the housing and regeneration department now were you aware that that was as i've read to you the scope of the policy
00:07:12 um
00:07:15 well i'm not sure i knew that particular phrase of responsible person i would have defined that as meaning the landlord function being the
00:07:26 landlord function being the um the tmo and the council perhaps being the funder of any work that was necessary and where it says a local fire policy for residential housing based on the housing stock risk profile
00:07:37 profile that was what i understood had been going on particularly since black canal with the
00:07:41 with the assessments of medium-high and low-risk properties and yes the housing regeneration department was uh was doing that as drafted this scope
00:07:52 uh was doing that as drafted this scope of policy suggests that it would apply to housing stock managed by the tmo wouldn't it yes yes whether it was a responsible person or as a landlord yes yes yes
00:08:05 yes yes yes whose responsibility was it within rbkc to ensure that the tmo understood and adhered
00:08:13 adhered to this policy um well that would be the director of housing the housing department uh the cabinet member for housing and regeneration um
00:08:25 regeneration um and they will be keen to ensure that all the fire risk measures which i think were largely coming on stream after la canal as i hinted yesterday uh were being complied with and assessments were being carried out and
00:08:36 assessments were being carried out and doors replaced um and i think they were aware of that and i think the council as it says here the um responsible person would be
00:08:45 would be expected to negotiate the funding with the through the housing revenue account to do those works and where clearly was a council property a work property the council would have to fund it from
00:08:57 fund it from its own its own resources and whose responsibility was it to ensure proper scrutiny of the tma's performance of its role under this policy um well i still think the scrutiny will
00:09:08 um well i still think the scrutiny will come from the housing and property scrutiny committee to make sure the um tma was complying with fire risk assessments and fire risk requirements
00:09:21 and if you look at page five please
00:09:29 uh you can see uh halfway just below halfway down the screen in front of you on that page it says the corporate health and safety team will ensure that there are appropriate processes in
00:09:41 that there are appropriate processes in place to ensure our partner organizations have suitable and sufficient fire safety management systems in place as part of the due diligence procedures and will develop suitable protocols with partners so as
00:09:53 suitable protocols with partners so as to ensure
00:09:53 to ensure fire safety compliance is assured did you uh know at the time that that was part of this fire policy that of that
00:10:04 fire policy that of that assurance um as part of this policy well i i knew that corporate health and safety would be casting a wide eye over all the council's fire risk management systems as a
00:10:17 fire risk management systems as a fire safety management systems as it says there so that would include the tmo and i would expect um the corporate health and safety team to liaise with the tmo in the in the normal way and um to look at what they were doing to
00:10:30 to look at what they were doing to meet all compliance requirements and who was it in the corporate health and safety team within rbkc who was obliged to ensure that there were appropriate processes in place
00:10:41 were appropriate processes in place as is prescribed there well i think that would be and i'd have to sort of go back and look at structures and things but i think that would be the director of uh environmental health who by borough
00:10:52 uh environmental health who by borough director of environmental health um mr austin right not uh not laura johnson then no i think i think mr austin would have liaised with the with the tmo and probably uh laura johnson and
00:11:05 tmo and probably uh laura johnson and the housing department to ensure that those parts of this document for which he was responsible and supposed to be uh working in partnership uh were being delivered i see this i would have seen as a sort of central environmental health
00:11:17 sort of central environmental health document um i i suspect it goes beyond fire risk into other aspects of health and safety both for employees and and premises why was it the corporate
00:11:28 was it the corporate health and safety team who was obliged to ensure what is prescribed there rather than housing or the subordinate parts of the housing department well i think in
00:11:40 the housing department well i think in the overall structure the housing department fits into a wider picture the the council
00:11:46 council the some of the some of which was by this stage buy or even try borrow borrow the three boroughs
00:11:53 boroughs trying to work together to save costs you know in the context of reductions to government grant
00:12:00 grant um the corporate team is sitting centrally looking at what is happening within the town hall within the housing directorate perhaps within care homes or within
00:12:12 perhaps within care homes or within schools and it needs to be able to liaise effectively with all those different parts of the council so housing is obviously very important residential accommodation but so are schools and so uh
00:12:23 schools and so uh workplaces for staff and i suspect somebody sitting at the middle isn't a good place to liaise with everybody can we please go to page 13 of this document
00:12:33 document let's look together at paragraph 4.1 on that page
00:12:37 that page this is under check and you'll remember check was one of the four central elements in the organogram and under 4.1
00:12:45 under 4.1 which is entitled measuring performance the third paragraph says all incidents should be reported using the online system incidents should be investigated by the manager consideration should be given to
00:12:57 manager consideration should be given to any system solutions to avoid future recurrence corporate health and safety will investigate serious incidents where enforcing bodies such as the lf epa are
00:13:06 epa are all maybe involved were you aware of that aspect of this policy um no not not consciously but it wouldn't surprise me at all and it seems quite sensible that
00:13:17 at all and it seems quite sensible that they do
00:13:17 they do take a the take a position on on any incident that's happened yeah do you accept uh or and if you you knew at the time did you know at the
00:13:28 you knew at the time did you know at the time that it applied to deficiency or enforcement notices against the tmo issued by the lfepa uh i didn't know that but it doesn't surprise me it seems
00:13:39 surprise me it seems sensible yes right so the answer is if you didn't know it it wouldn't surprise you if it had done yes
00:13:46 yes should it have done yeah yes i'm sure corporate health and safety should know of any
00:13:51 of any incidents where there was a a fire or a risk or something had happened and they should also know about it so yes the department concerned as i say it could be education could be housing could be adult social care
00:14:03 housing could be adult social care um but it's right that somebody centrally is looking at this and looking at notices served and saying you know have you done the work or are we doing the work and how long have you got to do that working and making sure that something's
00:14:14 and making sure that something's happening it's all corporate it's an extra
00:14:16 extra what do you call it a long stop an extra safety net really yes can we then pick up the threads of where we had left off yesterday uh
00:14:27 of where we had left off yesterday uh and i want to turn it to the question of communication with residents
00:14:32 residents uh now if we go to your first witness statement please at page eight i'd like to look at paragraph 33
00:14:41 you say there towards the bottom of your screen as leader i met weekly with the town clerk to discuss relevant issues and would also discuss items raised in my quotes mailbag on quotes or picked up
00:14:52 my quotes mailbag on quotes or picked up on visits around the borough the mailbag consisted of any written correspondence emails or calls to the leader's office over the preceding week and ensured that these were recorded and properly followed up i regularly asked the town clerk to
00:15:04 i regularly asked the town clerk to follow up particular points raised with me
00:15:06 me with the relevant officer and department occasionally i would raise matters i had picked up
00:15:11 picked up at london-wide meetings of council leaders with the borough's mps at central london forward meetings or with ministers
00:15:20 and in your second witness statement paragraph 26 page 8 you and you don't need to go to it but you refer to your correspondence log and you produce a summary of entries on
00:15:32 and you produce a summary of entries on the log which relate to grenfell tower well we've actually now got that on the screen i'm grateful let's look at the of the log rbk3054425 please
00:15:50 this is the log you produce 2013 to 17 and meetings with town clark where grenfell is an issue or relevant would your correspondence log have recorded all the complaints that you
00:16:02 recorded all the complaints that you received in your mailbag during that period 2013-2017 well well that's um that's an interesting question i don't think where i was copied in in a long list and there were some sort
00:16:14 in a long list and there were some sort of quite lengthy emails copied to almost every counsellor i'm not sure unless it was addressed to me directly i would have logged that because the person to whom it was
00:16:25 whom it was addressed i would assume as was was dealing with it and as i said compiled this list to help with with this inquiry and with this process but there may be things i've
00:16:36 process but there may be things i've overlooked or missed or where i was copied but they didn't didn't keep it or haven't written it down here so this is this is a help but i wouldn't say it was absolutely 100 water tight yes i see apart from the items in your mailbag
00:16:48 apart from the items in your mailbag were you aware otherwise that residents of grenfell tower had also made complaints to officers of rbkc and other councillors such as councillor lashari councillor atkinson
00:16:59 councillor lashari councillor atkinson councillor blakeman um i certainly knew that um council blakeman had received um complaints and had been written to and was taking a close
00:17:10 and was taking a close interest in the refurbishment and the issues around it because occasionally we spoke about it i'm not so sure about councillor lashari um and i don't remember councillor
00:17:21 um and i don't remember councillor atkinson
00:17:22 atkinson raising anything with me i think mostly being councillor bateman right you say you occasionally spoke to councillor blakeman about grenfell tower complaints um well no but i think rather rather more broadly
00:17:34 i think rather rather more broadly i think i mentioned yesterday she she'd been quite keen to lobby me for making sure that when the tower was refurbished the nursery was put back and i think she'd also spoken to me about the boxing club i
00:17:45 spoken to me about the boxing club i think she'd spoken to me about you know there were tenant complaints about the work and i have to say that wouldn't necessarily surprise me i think anybody who's had any work done
00:17:54 done at home where you try and remain working while work goes on around you even if it's a
00:17:59 it's a new bathroom or something it is immensely disruptive so it didn't surprise me if a ward counselor said you know some of my tenants are getting pretty fed up with the
00:18:07 the you know the dust the noise the the lift not working whatever it was and you know these would be informal sides maybe when i met her at something yes can we look at your second witness statement to page eight please um on that page you can see
00:18:20 please um on that page you can see paragraph 27 you say there i did become aware of the residents concerns in relation to the refurbishment works in december 2015 when a petition was presented to the council
00:18:31 presented to the council about the daily living conditions experienced by residents during the works
00:18:35 works as outlined in paragraph 51 of my original statement i was not present at this meeting i understand that the petition was referred to the housing and property scrutiny committee to be discussed at its meeting on 6th of january 2016.
00:18:46 its meeting on 6th of january 2016. before that date december 2015 had you heard nothing about the resident's concerns well i think i mentioned yesterday i had had a res a letter from mr daffan at
00:18:57 had had a res a letter from mr daffan at some point which was to me and i think it was about how he made a complaint about the planning department about something to do with the windows um so i was aware of that um
00:19:12 but otherwise no i don't think anybody had written to me directly as i said picked up the old comment and i wouldn't that wouldn't necessarily have surprised me did you take any action yourself personally in
00:19:24 take any action yourself personally in relation to the petition that you referred to here um no there's a formal process for petitions and i think the idea is that the petitioners come to the full council meeting
00:19:35 council meeting they read out the prayer of their petition make any points they want to to the full council about the issues that they have they then get an immediate response from the cabinet member responsible
00:19:46 member responsible who will try and answer some of the points in the prayer of the petition and deal with
00:19:51 deal with points that it raises and then normally it's referred to a scrutiny committee the petition is referred to the scrutiny committee so it can be further discussed and
00:19:59 and debated and any outcome from that agreed perhaps with a cabinet member
00:20:06 member so this struck me as perfectly normal i wasn't actually there at that council meeting unusually but uh but i understood that's what happened and
00:20:14 and did the concerns raised by the residents in the petition lead you to question the efficacy of the tmos complaints procedure
00:20:25 um well i did wonder and i perhaps have wondered this since the fire rather than before but when you are doing a massive refurbishment which is immensely disruptive to people
00:20:37 disruptive to people is it right that you have the same complaints procedure as you would have say if your hot water suddenly stopped working or the handle of your window had come off is the complaints procedure
00:20:48 is the complaints procedure that runs in the normal routine day-to-day um concern of managing nearly nine thousand properties the same as the sort of complaints you get when people are thoroughly
00:20:59 get when people are thoroughly frustrated when you're when you're working all around them and their homes are being disrupted so i wonder whether the complaints procedure for
00:21:05 for a big project like grenfell perhaps ought to be ring fenced and i thought i thought actually it was and that tenants could go and talk to the construction company and talk to ryden's and talk to the tmo
00:21:17 ryden's and talk to the tmo about problems they were having and that seemed to me i think trying to elide the the existing complaint system with with that perhaps isn't isn't quite right i mean you can count the
00:21:28 right i mean you can count the complaints but it doesn't help you deal with them no you said you weren't sure whether that was the thought you had at the time or after the fire i think i've had it after the fire that actually when you're any
00:21:39 the fire that actually when you're any big project not just grenfell any big project is immensely disruptive to people that live around it or have to live within it while it's going on and you perhaps need a different
00:21:47 different complaints procedure or you need to have somebody who can talk to the site foreman or whatever and say you know why has the lift been out of action all afternoon or why is there dust all over my
00:21:57 my carpet whatever and that's slightly different from the day-to-day routine complaints that any property manager is likely to get you don't remember at the time thinking
00:22:08 you don't remember at the time thinking that there ought to be a change in structure such as to enable complaints in relation to refurbishments to be channeled separately and differently from those complaints relating to day-to-day experiences
00:22:20 experiences um no i don't think i did think that at the time i think i've thought it since now i'd like to ask you some questions about your interaction with the grenfell action group or gag and uh mr daphne
00:22:32 gag and uh mr daphne uh on page two of your documents log if we can please go back to that
00:22:38 rbk3054425
00:22:42 you can see that on page two you note a meeting on the 7th of july 2015.
00:22:50 sorry you see that sorry where is it about halfway down your screen 7th of july 2015
00:22:57 july 2015 meeting with west london citizens oh yes and it says meeting with west london citizens on housing at kensington aldridge academy over 100 people attended rfm and npb
00:23:08 over 100 people attended rfm and npb talked about a regeneration charter and consultation e daphan present and harangued npb before the meeting about social cleansing
00:23:17 cleansing no reference to gt uh now first just to be clear and uh building on what you said this morning
00:23:28 building on what you said this morning this document uh is a document you put together
00:23:31 together after the fire yes did you put it together in preparation to assist the inquiry yes right um the text that i've just read to you for the meeting on the 7th of july 2015
00:23:43 the meeting on the 7th of july 2015 did that come straight from your memory or did you refresh your memory from a document
00:23:50 document um i would have i would have refreshed my memory when i was compiling this from my weekly calendars which were produced for me by my office when i was leader and they set out
00:24:01 leader and they set out what i'd be doing the following the following week meetings i've been having and clearly i look look through those um to see what i have been doing and this meeting
00:24:12 this meeting was quite an important meeting because it was a chat what we were trying to do uh council fielding mellon and i was to talk to residents who might be affected by long-term council regeneration plans and i
00:24:24 council regeneration plans and i wanted to be able to speak to them directly and west london citizens were brokering this sort of interaction between the council or council members and members of the public residents
00:24:37 and members of the public residents living in
00:24:37 living in in our blocks and it seemed to me that was a good way of speaking to them on neutral ground
00:24:44 ground chaired by west london citizens and rock and i could give a short presentation as to what we were doing answer any questions
00:24:51 questions um and deal with some of the sort of mythology that's around uh refurbishment of council property yes sorry forgive me my question is a slightly more functional one sorry when what was it well what were
00:25:02 sorry when what was it well what were you looking at if anything uh my my diary yes did your diary contain the data the details of the facts we have here for example over 100 people attended um
00:25:17 no but i rem i recall that it was a very very crowded meeting at least 100 people there and is everything else in this text here something that you recall unaided by a
00:25:28 something that you recall unaided by a contemporaneous document um yes this is my note um yeah this is my note my words you'll know your words but just to be
00:25:40 you'll know your words but just to be absolutely clear it comes straight from your recollection rather than a a recollection refreshed by looking again at a at a contemporaneous document no the eddy document would have been my my weekly calendar and i would have
00:25:51 my weekly calendar and i would have looked at it and saw the date and and that would have joked my memory it wasn't saying right and your calendar would not have said i know i take it e defund present and harangued mpb before the meeting about social cleansing
00:26:02 cleansing no i added that you added that yes uh and did you add that because that's how you recall it yeah yes uh w when you say e defund present and harangued mpb
00:26:14 present and harangued mpb before the meeting about social cleansing what do you recall of that uh well the meeting was held at the kensington aldridge academy and i arrived and i was quite keen to sort of go in a few minutes early and
00:26:26 sort of go in a few minutes early and just talk to residents who were there i always think that might be a you know a good opportunity um and edward daffan was in the hallway and sort of stopped me and um as always the conversation became
00:26:38 and um as always the conversation became quite
00:26:38 quite pointed and heated he was telling me you know this was the council planning to socially cleanse the north of uh of residence and uh this was our you know a plan to destroy the
00:26:50 you know a plan to destroy the neighborhood um and i thought you know i'm wasting a lot of time going over this with with somebody who is determined to misrepresent what we're doing and i'd really rather be in the room talking to
00:27:02 room talking to people who who actually might like to know what the council is planning to do
00:27:09 you put no reference to gt is that a recollection of what uh of the content of what mr mr daffan said no that doesn't refer to mr david it just means
00:27:20 mr david it just means that there was a meeting with 100 or more people present and they were asking all sorts of questions about what the council was doing but nobody put their hand up and said
00:27:29 said you know we've got concerns about grenfell tower or anything like that so in this meeting or pre-meeting or encounter perhaps there's a better word with mr dathon before this meeting were any questions relating to grenfell
00:27:41 were any questions relating to grenfell tower specifically referred to by either of you um that i don't remember but i don't think it was if he did raise anything it wasn't the main thrust the main thrust was the
00:27:52 main thrust the main thrust was the social cleansing that we were apparently planning to write do you
00:27:58 did you have any interaction with with the residents groups associated with grenfell tower either at this time or before that um
00:28:11 no only um no i don't i don't think i did and only the as i said said i think at the top of this document i had a very early meeting with mr daffan in the
00:28:23 very early meeting with mr daffan in the finger blocks uh the um the rest of the lancaster west estate outside grenfell tower to discuss the conditions there and that was that was an early meeting
00:28:34 and that was that was an early meeting with mr defaun and one or two other residents of the lancaster west finger block estates but i don't think anybody particularly raised grenfell other than
00:28:45 particularly raised grenfell other than i think at that point the work hadn't started and people were getting concerned that it hadn't started right we'll come to that very shortly but this early meeting would that have been well can you give a year at least for that
00:28:54 for that i think it was soon after i became leader i think he wrote to me and asked if i'd go and see him right and i did and i think that was 2013 yes
00:29:03 2013 yes well let's look at let's look at the correspondence uh between uh mr daphne and rbkc during the summer of that year can we start with rbk403722 please
00:29:24 now this is email correspondence uh between
00:29:27 between uh mr daffan and councillor rock fielding mellon uh and others on the 27th and 28th of june 2013. uh what you've got on your screen is later in the year
00:29:39 screen is later in the year so we need to start at the beginning on page 11.
00:29:45 we will come back to page one as we track through this on page 11 we can see how it starts in fact we need to go to page 12 in
00:29:57 in fact we need to go to page 12 in reality
00:30:01 where mr daffan writes to councillor fielding mellon on behalf of the grenfell action group the grenfell
00:30:09 grenfell tower leaseholders association and the lancaster west residents association to request an urgent meeting to discuss with you the reasons for the delays to the grenfell tower refurbishment project we seek this meeting with you
00:30:20 we seek this meeting with you in your capacity as cabinet member for housing property and regeneration as we feel we are unable to get the answers to the questions we want to ask elsewhere you should be aware that there is growing dissatisfaction among residents
00:30:31 growing dissatisfaction among residents of grenfell tower and the wider estate that the original promises made to our community appear to have been broken and we are now seeking clarification about when and with how much available funding will the refurbishment of our homes be
00:30:44 will the refurbishment of our homes be taking place
00:30:47 uh now um we we can see that page 11 on page 11 uh rockfielding melon writes back to him
00:30:58 rockfielding melon writes back to him on the next day
00:31:03 uh
00:31:06 and he says i think it would be useful to have such a meeting and to discuss these various issues i've ceased kerry thomas who'll liaise with you to arrange a convenient time for this meeting kerry please also try to make sure peter
00:31:17 kerry please also try to make sure peter madison and laura johnson can attend mr daphne can you please confirm who'd be attending from your side and then um he says at the top of page 12 i'd also like to come on a tour of the estate with you
00:31:28 the estate with you however i must make it clear that the council
00:31:31 council has no plans to do anything that could even vaguely be referred to as social cleansing
00:31:35 cleansing and i'd re i'd urge you to make that clear to your fellow residents and that was a response to one of the points made lower down on page 12 in mr daffan's original email
00:31:46 on page 12 in mr daffan's original email and then um if we go to page seven of the email thread we can see that uh on the 22nd of july
00:31:56 2013 leslie coyle writes to mr daffan and says i'm getting in touch at the request of councillor paget brown and further to your email exchange with kerry thomas below which i've skipped over
00:32:06 over council of patrick brown is agreeable to your request to meet and would like to arrange something before the end of july there's availability in the diary on wednesday and thursday afternoon this week
00:32:14 week at 2 30 p.m councillor barbara campbell will accompany the leader on his visit with you
00:32:18 with you would you be kind enough to let me know if either of these time slots might be convenient to you for you and then if if you um scroll up we can see um
00:32:29 um scroll up we can see um that in fact what happens cutting a long story
00:32:32 story of diaries short the meeting is eventually set up for the 11th of september and if we go up to page three we see
00:32:43 three we see after the touring and throwing about the date an email from
00:32:50 mr daphne to leslie coyle in the middle of that
00:32:53 of that page middle of your screen now where he says this dear leslie thank you for bearing with me when i spoke to other stakeholders with regards to nick padgett brown's visit to lancaster west estate further to your
00:33:04 lancaster west estate further to your email we would like to invite the leader to meet with us on the estate at 3 30 pm on the afternoon of 11th of september that
00:33:11 that tunde from the leaseholders christine from the ra and myself from gag will definitely be in attendance and i shall advise you if we will be joined by any others i will try and send an agenda prior to the meeting but if this is not possible
00:33:22 meeting but if this is not possible we basically want to talk about the managed decline of lancaster west and how the council can allow us to live in near slumlike conditions while spending 30 million pounds on paving stones for exhibition road and
00:33:34 paving stones for exhibition road and indulging in the one million pound subsidy of opera in holland park we would wish to talk about how we are treated by our landlord
00:33:41 landlord the tmo and also about the future threat of social cleansing to our community i'll be back in touch near the time to help finalize arrangements um
00:33:52 to help finalize arrangements um and then uh we scroll up to uh another email of the ninth of september bottom of page one over onto page two
00:34:04 where mr daphon writes again leslie just to confirm our meeting with the leader of uh leader of uh the council on wednesday 11 september at 3 30 p.m
00:34:16 11 september at 3 30 p.m in order to keep the meeting as focused as possible we've restricted the number of local stakeholders attending the meeting
00:34:21 meeting to tundia awaderu from the lancaster west leaseholders christine richer from the lancaster west residents association and myself from grenfell action group we would offer to meet with councillor patrick brown in the r-ray rooms
00:34:32 patrick brown in the r-ray rooms etc and then says we will wish to discuss the following matters why are the council overseeing and controlling the managed decline of lancaster west estate through the total lack of investment or care in our community
00:34:43 community why should we be forced to live in slum-like conditions in the richest borough in the uk where there is 30 million pounds to spare to spend on paving stones in exhibition rate but no money for essential housing needs in the north of the borough
00:34:54 the borough why have the council developed a fascist decant policy that will lead to the social cleansing of our community once the inevitability of regeneration takes place why have the council removed the guarantee to re-house residents back
00:35:05 guarantee to re-house residents back into their communities as stated in the borough's core strategy and that was originally included in the draft the camp policy but was removed from the final decant policy why have the council and its scrutiny committee been involved in a cover-up
00:35:17 committee been involved in a cover-up by totally ignoring the extreme fire risk and danger to resident safety as a result of power surges that occurred in grenfell tower in may how can the council tmo justify the decision to deny liability for the destruction of residents electrical
00:35:28 destruction of residents electrical appliances and refused to pay his compensation why are the residents being treated like dirt through no fault of their own when the grenfell tower improvement project has been delayed for over one year now
00:35:38 year now and why residents will now have to undergo three years of disruption instead of having all the construction work taking place at one time how the funding gap will be bridged between the 11 million lead bit 11 pound 11 million pounds ledbitter have stated
00:35:49 11 million pounds ledbitter have stated the works will cost and the 9.6 million pounds so far available a commitment from councillor padgett brown that he will take a personal interest in this project to make sure ongoing delays
00:36:00 this project to make sure ongoing delays are resolved and then in the next paragraph in the second sentence please can councillor padgett brown give our community a guarantee that the council will do all they can to help the emb become
00:36:11 help the emb become a functioning organization again with the ability to hold the tma properly to account
00:36:17 account and then there are other matters as well underneath that i've read that at length to you um was that the first well first of all did you see this email it went to leslie coyle oh yes i did assuming you did yes
00:36:30 coyle oh yes i did assuming you did yes was that the first time that all these questions had been raised with you um
00:36:38 yes i think so i think i'd had some dealings with mr daffan previously over the
00:36:42 the power surges which happened very much as i was just taking over from my predecessor as leader but this is the first time i'd seen
00:36:50 seen all these issues laid out and it won't surprise you to know i thought there were a number of misconceptions and misunderstandings in the letter and i thought it'd be good to again
00:36:58 again meet mr default and his colleagues to try to put their mind at rest right did you normally give personal access to
00:37:06 access to uh individual residents in the way that you're offering here um well i was very recently leader i'd only just become leader and i said to
00:37:18 just become leader and i said to the office that i quite like to meet as many residents as possible and there was no reason why i shouldn't meet mr daffan and there was a letter full of you know accusations which i thought were wildly inaccurate and um but there
00:37:29 were wildly inaccurate and um but there may be
00:37:30 may be something i needed to know i was quite keen to go actually and have a look at lancaster west because i hadn't been there since i've been the the chairman of housing some 20 years before
00:37:40 before so it's an opportunity to do that to meet some other residents um i did know the estate management board was failing but actually the role of the estate management board if you like is a smaller tmo it was a mini tmo just for
00:37:52 smaller tmo it was a mini tmo just for lancaster west and it seemed to have been failing for some time and i thought we could perhaps have a discussion about that i also wanted to know whether there might be an opportunity for mr daffan or anybody else on in the
00:38:03 mr daffan or anybody else on in the finger blocks on lancaster west to talk to residents about the long-term um
00:38:09 um regeneration opportunities of the estate and
00:38:12 and perhaps should we be refurbishing the flats if they were slums and i wanted to see if they were um or should we be demolishing this state and rebuilding it in a different way perhaps in a better way
00:38:23 in a better way and i thought we'd have a discussion about that and maybe he could go and talk to some residents and perhaps do a survey and that that would all help in our you know we were very new at this and we were planning some quite extensive
00:38:34 planning some quite extensive regeneration now in fact it's right that the
00:38:37 the meeting did go ahead didn't it the 11th of september as eventually diarized yes
00:38:44 do you accept that from that time at least
00:38:47 least 11 september 2013 you were aware that there was dissatisfaction if i can use a neutral word from among the residents or some of the residents of grenfell tower with with the project and with living
00:38:59 with with the project and with living conditions generally well i didn't quite read it like that um i think i've indicated i can understand why people were concerned that grenfell hadn't started and mr daffan was a leaseholder within the
00:39:11 daffan was a leaseholder within the tower but this was a meeting i had sort of
00:39:13 of in my mind seen as discussing what happens with you know grenfell is going ahead okay it hasn't started yet but it will will start soon we've got these three finger blocks
00:39:23 blocks um we've got a failing estate management board
00:39:26 board we've got it would be useful to have a look and decide what does need to happen here longer term and maybe this would be a good thing to do so that's i wasn't really thinking of this as a
00:39:35 this as a meeting to discuss problems at grenfell other than the fact that perhaps the work was
00:39:39 work was running late despite the language and tone
00:39:42 tone uh in which the concerns have been expressed by mr daphon in the emails i've read to you uh do you accept that it was incumbent on the on the council to take them seriously yes yes and and
00:39:53 to take them seriously yes yes and and mr defan had invited you in the email i've read to you
00:39:57 you to take a a or make a commitment a personal commitment as leader to take the to take a personal interest in the project did you make uh such a commitment to mr
00:40:08 did you make uh such a commitment to mr dathon um
00:40:13 no i didn't i i suggested well not not in so many words not not precisely like that but i said i wanted to have another discussion an ongoing discussion i wanted to go and see a
00:40:24 discussion i wanted to go and see a flat on the estate which he wasn't over enthusiastic about me doing but a lady there
00:40:29 there said come and see my flat and i went in and had a look and i certainly didn't think it was a slum it's quite a strange estate because it has these very big internal courtyards covered with steps up and then you have a walkway round and the
00:40:40 then you have a walkway round and the flat doors go off the walkway so there's an awful lot of wasted space and i remember 20 years before there had been security and protection you know people concerned
00:40:51 protection you know people concerned about people coming into the lancaster west finger blocks and they've been quite a lot of extensive work done on
00:40:57 on security arrangements and i looked in the ladies flat and she showed me her kitchen and bathroom and i sort of had a chat with her about it and i wasn't
00:41:05 i wasn't going to extrapolate from one visit but at least it reassured me she wasn't living in a slum did we've seen that mr daffan suggested uh that the scrutiny committee
00:41:16 suggested uh that the scrutiny committee had ignored what he describes as an extreme
00:41:18 extreme fire risk yeah related to the power surges
00:41:22 surges in may 2013 so the same month you became leader i think yes did that put you on notice to pay particular attention to the issue of fire safety either during or as a result
00:41:34 fire safety either during or as a result of the refurbishment project at grenfell tower yeah yes i was very exercised by the reports of the power surge um and i raised it promptly with the then
00:41:43 then town clerk um sir derek myers and asked him to
00:41:47 him to make as a priority to investigate what had happened um this wasn't a problem with some council work this was one of the utilities and i believe there was a cable and there'd been some arcing of the cable which had caused a
00:41:58 arcing of the cable which had caused a surge and you uh but i needed to be reassured this wasn't a fire risk and there wasn't some hazard and a report was produced which i saw and i think that report was referred
00:42:09 saw and i think that report was referred to the
00:42:10 to the housing and property scrutiny committee i think either i'm not sure now but i think a letter was sent to residents or even a meeting was held with residents and i felt reassured that actually no
00:42:21 and i felt reassured that actually no this wasn't a virus this wasn't something that was going to get into the into the tower or whatever but there was a problem with it and it needed to be sorted out and it had been sorted out did the question of who was going to pay for the damage done to the electrical
00:42:33 for the damage done to the electrical equipment in individual residence flats across your desk i think it did yes what was the upshot of that um it seemed to me very very small beer we're talking about there had been a
00:42:44 we're talking about there had been a it's like a fuse blowing and a toaster or a
00:42:47 or a kettle no longer working and i think my view was they should be replaced and the tmo or whatever might have a fund that they could replace but i didn't think it was something the leader of the council should be fretting over it
00:42:58 council should be fretting over it seemed quite small scale my concern was the safety and i was reassured that the safety had not been compromised did you suggest to the tma that they should set up a fund to assist in reimbursing the residents i
00:43:12 reimbursing the residents i do you know i don't remember i i don't think i would have spent very much time on it i might have made a throwaway remark to somebody but right it seemed to me very it wouldn't have been a very big sum of money no
00:43:25 money no but it was the safety that i was worried about not not the loss of the toaster did you get into the question of of the tma's
00:43:32 tma's legal responsibility for um compensating residents for the damage to their equipment as a result of the power surge i didn't i think that's a technical matter for the council's legal team insurance team the tmo and
00:43:45 legal team insurance team the tmo and i don't think i need to get involved in that
00:43:48 that now at the meeting uh do you remember asking any
00:43:59 uh do you remember asking any questions about the the consultation process
00:44:02 process that was then ongoing in relation to the project do you mean the grenfell tower project or do you mean um the grenfell no i don't think i asked
00:44:14 the grenfell no i don't think i asked any
00:44:14 any questions about the grenfell tower um project but i think i did ask mr daffan about whether there might be an opportunity for him to consult as you know a leading resident um with with
00:44:27 you know a leading resident um with with members i
00:44:27 members i i think there were four or 500 households and i thought he could speak to them yes let me ask try the question a slightly different way did the fact that mr default was bringing to you among other things
00:44:38 you among other things the question why has the grenfell tower improvement project been delayed for over a year did the fact that he was asking you that question lead you to think that the consultation process in
00:44:50 that the consultation process in relation to the refurbishment had gone awry um no i don't think it did i think my understanding was there there was a re-tendering going on and i think the original anticipation that it might be done by
00:45:02 anticipation that it might be done by one contractor wasn't wasn't going to be the case
00:45:04 the case and there was a delay but i think the consultation had taken place much earlier on what might be done and tenants had been carefully consulted i think at grenfell about the
00:45:13 about the the works and what would happen and the new heating units and the new windows and
00:45:18 and then the external cladding i think they they
00:45:21 they consulted did this thought cross your mind uh
00:45:24 mind uh why is the tmo not provided this answer to mr daphon instead of him coming to me to ask the question um no not at that time i when i came in as i said i
00:45:35 time i when i came in as i said i thought it would be useful to meet as many people as possible and i knew mr daffan had had issues around the power surges and now issues around the lancaster west state the non-grantful part of it
00:45:46 part of it and i thought you know it would be good to go and see him directly and talk and once you
00:45:50 once you you know sometimes as leader you don't need to be sitting in a big committee meeting with formal notes and officers and everybody taking positions you can just go and talk to people and find out actually what is happening come to your own
00:46:01 what is happening come to your own view as well you don't you don't have to accept what everybody's telling you so i was at that stage here and this was very much a an informal visit to look at lancaster west to talk to him to see if i could
00:46:12 west to talk to him to see if i could find out
00:46:14 find out whether the emb might come back in some shape or form or not um and what might happen there longer term or maybe nothing would happen you know i needed to know whether it was a slum i mean that's what it and then i thought i could perhaps put him right on
00:46:25 thought i could perhaps put him right on one or two things like the dcam policy which we were very very careful i'd insisted you know right from the beginning if we were going to do refurbishments or renovations of estates which we were going to have to do
00:46:36 which we were going to have to do there must be a right for all tenants and leaseholders to return to the newly refurbished uh and there was no way we would proceed unless that that happened um otherwise there would be social
00:46:47 um otherwise there would be social cleansing which we were very strongly opposed to yes having made the decision to meet mr daphon one on one as you've described were you struck by the depth of
00:47:00 were you struck by the depth of feeling that he'd expressed in his emails
00:47:07 well i thought they were they were articulate in one sense but they were over hyped and uh inaccurate in others and um but that's quite often what happens if you're if you're a counselor you get a
00:47:19 you're if you're a counselor you get a lot of letters which are people are very cross about something and they perhaps overstate a case or they
00:47:24 they only state one side of the argument not two um and that does happen so you've seen quite a few emails a bit like this and you you need to try and get to the bottom of what's actually happening did you ask yourself
00:47:35 actually happening did you ask yourself why
00:47:35 why there was as appears such bad blood between the tmo and these groups and mr daphon in particular um no
00:47:48 um no you know there are people have had long standing
00:47:52 standing antagonisms and i thought this was an opportunity to perhaps cut through them and i
00:47:56 and i you know wasn't going with any other purpose no hidden agenda just wanted to find out why he'd written these things try and put some of them right have a look at the estate and and talk to him about the
00:48:07 estate and and talk to him about the long-term prospects can we look at rbk3046008 please
00:48:15 this is an email from you to councillor fielding mellon which you sent on the 27th of september 2013.
00:48:25 and you send him a draft letter which you were proposing to send to mr daffan grateful for any comments amendments editions you say and then there's the text of it below
00:48:37 there's the text of it below and under the text or in the text you embed uh a list of issues would you say in the second paragraph i thought it would be helpful to put together a list
00:48:48 together a list of the issues which came up and which need to be addressed we can revisit these when we meet again at the end of november and i will ask rock to join us so we can agree a common agenda and a way forward and then you set out a long
00:48:59 set out a long bullet list of issues to consider now even though this was a draft and in fact the letter was sent out in pretty much this form
00:49:10 was sent out in pretty much this form does it fairly reflect the issues discussed
00:49:28 uh yes i think that does reflect reflect the issues yes uh i mean taking away all the all the tone and language were you left with the impression that the the residents of grenfell tower
00:49:41 the the residents of grenfell tower had genuine concerns about each of these issues
00:49:47 issues um no this is really much more about the finger blocks on the rest of the estate these are the low rise blocks alongside grenfell tower so i wasn't
00:49:58 alongside grenfell tower so i wasn't getting involved in the in a re-run of the consultation on grenfell tower i wasn't aware of all the details as to when work was going to start that to me was a separate project about which there'd been a lot of
00:50:09 about which there'd been a lot of discussion this was about my meeting with edward dafon and other residents to discuss
00:50:16 discuss the other part of the estate and some of the wider issues about the estate management board and i think i've got here when the work on grenfell will start
00:50:26 start um but my reference to do residents want to see a refurbishment or a rebuilding of all or part of the estate that was the fundamental question i had about the the finger blocks not not grenfell
00:50:37 the finger blocks not not grenfell though that was your question was it yeah these are all my my questions that i picked up from the meeting and i thought we needed to work through if we had a meeting if we had a follow-up meeting
00:50:48 meeting i thought maybe rock and i and edward daphon and anybody else could could discuss these things and try and answer these points and explain what was happening yes
00:50:59 yes and do you remember what mr daphon said about the emb
00:51:06 um
00:51:10 i i don't really other than i think he he probably echoed the the the fact that you know very rarely met it wasn't quara it wasn't a functioning body and i think the council's view
00:51:23 and i think the council's view i can't remember the chronology of events here was that probably the mb needed to go and it needed to all be put back
00:51:28 back in with the tmo and maybe maybe he didn't want that i don't know but i think i'm reading too much into that i'd and you suggested meeting again i think
00:51:39 and you suggested meeting again i think yes at the end of november yes uh and was that to take things further forward yes what did you tell him about the delays to the grenfell tower refurbishment
00:51:50 refurbishment project which was the first question he'd started this off with um i don't remember in detail what i what i now said other than that probably it was because they were having to go out to retender because there were issues about the initial
00:52:03 issues about the initial contractor i think the idea that the contractor could do all three buildings the academy the leisure center and the tower
00:52:08 tower had fallen apart right and the tma was going out to retender and that inevitably involves delay and um very frustrating for everybody involved but you know that's that's
00:52:20 involved but you know that's that's better than having a bad contract did you say anything about the budget um was there any discussion about budgetary considerations in relation to the re-tendering no i don't think i don't think we did
00:52:32 no i don't think i don't think we did discuss that and i can't now remember the chronology back to when the cabinet was increasing the budget for the grenfell project to not was it 9.7 and then 10.3 and i can't remember where this fits into that maybe this was a bit
00:52:43 this fits into that maybe this was a bit before that this i think was oh after increased to 9.7
00:52:47 9.7 right so the budget had had been increased in the summer of 2013 right turn 9.7 from the initial six that's the chronology yes so can we look at rbk30s rbk304609
00:53:01 yes so can we look at rbk30s rbk304609 please
00:53:02 please um and we could take this i think quickly this is councillor fielding mellon's response to you on the the 27th of september same day second email on page one as you can see you can't um
00:53:14 you can't um you look down second email on that page yes you can now in 1728 uh and he responds with with some amendments um and then um at the top of the screen if
00:53:25 and then um at the top of the screen if you go up to that please top of the page uh you you you thank him for the amendments this is your email of october 3rd of october 2013 uh and you say
00:53:38 uh and you say uh in the second full paragraph although we can meet with officers i tend to find that such meetings become rather defensive and entrenched which officers were you referring to
00:53:50 which officers were you referring to there
00:53:50 there tmo or rbkc no that was a general remark about
00:53:55 about officers it wasn't any particular officers from any particular department it was that occasionally elected members elected to represent residents can have a dialogue without officers and that sometimes more comes out of that than
00:54:07 sometimes more comes out of that than everybody coming along and talking about budgets and timetables and some of the rather more formal things which certainly do have to be discussed i'm not suggesting they aren't
00:54:14 aren't but i wanted to just have this informal discussion to find out whether he was truly representative of wider views which i think is quite important when you're a counselor
00:54:25 important when you're a counselor is this person speaking for everybody or is this person speaking with a loud voice on their own behalf is this person genuinely representative or is this person um not and i think you have to sort of if
00:54:36 not and i think you have to sort of if you're in
00:54:37 you're in a political role that's part of what you have to do yes and you say i tend to find that such meetings become rather defensive and entrenched have you had any experiences of meetings between officers
00:54:48 between officers whether tma or rbkc and the residents of the lancaster west estate where defensiveness and entrenched positions
00:54:56 positions uh were a feature uh no i've had no experience of meetings with residents of lancaster western state other than this this meeting that i i was having so so when you say i tend to find that such meetings
00:55:06 meetings become rather that that was me speaking as a as a counselor with but you know many years of experience of residents coming in and meeting officers and every
00:55:14 and every the residents overstating the case and the officers being very defensive and you know and you don't really get very far everybody sort of walks out and doesn't feel that much has happened right just to be clear
00:55:25 much has happened right just to be clear then it wasn't your impression that officers of the tmo had not been able to engage with grenfell tower residents at meetings
00:55:31 meetings because of defensive or entrenched positions no as far as i understood it and i didn't understand it in any great detail but there had been um extensive consultation with residents of grenfell tower about what was going to be done and whether
00:55:43 what was going to be done and whether they wanted it to be done and what their concerns were about the estate and um so that had happened and have been been banked as it were
00:55:54 banked as it were and we were now waiting for the works to start the works when they were done we're going to reflect what residents wanted to see as far as i was aware and at this meeting now let's look at the letter that was sent met 304
00:56:07 letter that was sent met 304 2240 this is the final letter that was sent
00:56:11 sent to mr daphon as a result of the meetings and the drafting process we've just seen and it's uh it's it's it's on your headed note paper it's a formal letter yep third of october 2013. so the same
00:56:24 yep third of october 2013. so the same day that you got the draft back from mr fielding melon and it runs over two pages and it essentially sets out the the issues to consider and the walk
00:56:35 the the issues to consider and the walk about issues if you go scroll down page one and then scroll into page two that's the letter did mr daphon respond to this letter
00:56:47 did mr daphon respond to this letter um or any of the representatives of the other groups
00:56:54 well there was a lot of correspondence i think
00:56:58 think with from mr daphne sort of going to all sorts of people over the council and i can't now just distinguish between whether he wrote back to this i think the idea was we had a follow-up meeting and we would discuss these issues yeah um and i can't he may have written
00:57:10 yeah um and i can't he may have written back saying yes i look forward to meeting you or whatever and we did have a follow-up meeting you did have a follow-up meeting yes we'll come to that
00:57:16 to that uh just before we do that i just want to show you one or two intervening things first please iws 402298 which is a grenfell action group blog from 28th of october 2013. so
00:57:29 from 28th of october 2013. so about three and a half weeks after your letter
00:57:35 yep uh posted on the 28th of october and there's a striking picture below it uh
00:57:43 uh there's a cartoon of king kinute with a rubber duck on his lap and a text below it the leader of the council councillor nick padgett brown was kind and gracious enough to come to lancaster west in september
00:57:55 to come to lancaster west in september and meet with resident representatives of the grenfell action group the grenfell tower leaseholders association and the lancaster west residents association he wrote us on third october briefly setting out his recollection and understanding of the issues raised
00:58:06 understanding of the issues raised this was indeed welcome it appears to have been a clear indication of councillor padgett brown's genuine and ongoing interest in the problems besetting this community um did you read this blog i'm showing it to you in a bit of detail
00:58:18 i'm showing it to you in a bit of detail to try and trigger a recollection but do you remember seeing this at the time no i i didn't read blogs generally when i was leader very occasionally the press office would bring something to my attention from a
00:58:29 bring something to my attention from a blog that was circulating in the borough this one and others but i have read the blog quite extensively since july since june 2017.
00:58:40 july since june 2017. um but i didn't read this and i don't recall seeing this certainly at the time and um right but it just reflects what was happening you know i was trying to enter into a dialogue and have some discussions and so that
00:58:52 discussions and so that all sounds quite good at this stage uh yes reading down though it says uh if you just look at the next paragraph unfortunately some of the points in his letter were in our view somewhat inaccurate seemed to betray a failure on his part
00:59:04 seemed to betray a failure on his part to fully understand the issues we brought to his attention or at least to fully grasp our perspective and our particular concerns and then it goes over on to the next page uh at some some length in relation to
00:59:15 uh at some some length in relation to that
00:59:15 that uh uh and uh uh at the end if i can show you page three in the last four lines of the first paragraph he says well it says as
00:59:27 first paragraph he says well it says as already stated he gave the impression that he was listening that he was genuinely concerned about the issues at lancaster west we can only hope that he will therefore fully investigate these matters to ensure that he fully understands the issues we should wait therefore to see what he
00:59:38 should wait therefore to see what he will do
00:59:39 will do and then in bold he certainly knows how to talk the talk let's just wait to see now whether he can walk the walk also
00:59:46 also we're expecting to meet with councillor patrick brown again shortly when he will be hosting us at his house we can hardly wait
00:59:51 wait and then there's some uh link to another blog
00:59:55 blog did any nobody brought this to your attention at the time is that right no i don't think so i'm sure i wouldn't have been hosting a meeting at my house no well um did did
01:00:06 no well um did did anybody from these three organizations uh or mr daphne in particular write back to you in response to your letter and and inform you that you had misunderstood
01:00:17 misunderstood uh the points that were being made at the meeting i i i can't remember he might have done right
01:00:24 right uh if we then go please on in time to rbk
01:00:28 rbk for three zeroes rbk three zero is four six zero one seven this is an email chain between you mr daphond and others and it starts on page five please with
01:00:39 and it starts on page five please with an email from you to mr daphon on the 8th of november of 2013. so after the king knute blog post of the 28th of october 2013
01:00:50 28th of october 2013 and
01:00:55 you are writing to him thanking him for his email of the 25th of october uh and uh you say as miss caller advised you would happen
01:01:06 as miss caller advised you would happen miss parker the chief solicitor and monitoring officer has looked into this matter i'm satisfied there's been no cover-up about the grenfell tower power surge or any attempt to be obstructive it does appear however that there has been some confusion around your email to ms johnson of 10th
01:01:17 your email to ms johnson of 10th september which i apologize and then he discusses some legal questions
01:01:24 questions about whether or not an earlier email of his which we haven't looked at of the 10th of september 2013 was an foi request or a request let's send pursuant to a pre-action protocol do you
01:01:37 pursuant to a pre-action protocol do you remember
01:01:38 remember that issue
01:01:41 the issue of whether or not a a a a request from mr defon was should be treated as an foi or as a a pre-action protocol request i don't remember that that um
01:01:54 i don't remember that that um we often we often got sort of issues of definitions of whether things were foi or whether they were other other categories of complaint and i did leave senior officers to deal
01:02:06 and i did leave senior officers to deal with that i really didn't think that was one for me right um if we go to page three we can see his response on the 11th of november 2013 bottom of the page dear counselor patrick brown
01:02:17 the page dear counselor patrick brown thank you for taking the time to write to me personally and then in the third line i do not accept your assertion that rbkc have not attempted to be obstructive with regards to this matter the reeks of council legalese and time
01:02:28 the reeks of council legalese and time wasting
01:02:30 wasting and then he sets out something from amanda johnson in the body of the email and then goes on on page four
01:02:38 uh to draw to your attention uh in the uh in the third paragraph although it's not indented
01:02:49 paragraph although it's not indented well it's not gapped if you're familiar with the coroner's report from the latino house fire that killed six tower block residents in south london in 2009 then you will know that the fire was started by an electrical fault in a television set
01:03:00 television set please bear this in mind when you while you read the rest of this correspondence and then it continues uh on the subject of uh of the
01:03:11 of uh of the uh of what happened as a result of the power surge and smoke and sparks television sets breaking etc
01:03:23 at this point were you familiar with the latino house fire um yes and with the coroner's recommendations from the inquests not not directly
01:03:36 from the inquests not not directly unless they've been in a in in a council paper that that i'd seen or had come to the cabinet before i became leader but um i don't remember reading them directly myself but they may have been
01:03:47 directly myself but they may have been incorporated into a council paper did you or were you prompted to go away and look at the coroner's report as a result of mr daphne's
01:03:58 result of mr daphne's reference to it in this email no i wasn't no why is that um well i felt that the issue that he'd been concerned about had been dealt with by the utility company
01:04:09 been dealt with by the utility company who had provided the repair and dealt with it and that there had been some fusing of equipment but maybe this this here is is overstated and um
01:04:23 this here is is overstated and um i wasn't quite sure what he was expecting me to do with this fault had been put right by the utility it was a utility fold and the council had reported on what had
01:04:34 and the council had reported on what had been done
01:04:35 been done circulated that to the tenants to the housing property scrutiny committee i'd i'd
01:04:41 i'd asked for it to be looked into as a as a great matter of urgency um and i felt again this was beginning to overstate um having seen other letters and
01:04:52 um having seen other letters and concerns that you know some of his letters did not actually reflect the reality on on the ground if you scroll down a little bit further in
01:05:01 in to the same page lower down the same page you can see uh that there is a reference just below halfway on your screen to this it says we are also aware can
01:05:12 to this it says we are also aware can you see
01:05:13 you see if we just have that pointed for you yes we are also aware that mr black from the tma made allegations that the grenfell action group and other local
01:05:21 local stakeholders had made misleading statements on our blog and in round-robin emails when we challenged mr black to substantiate these allegations by informing us what statements he believed
01:05:30 believed that what that we gave that concerned contained leadingness and misleading information he could not explain himself despite several opportunities mr black has failed to provide any evidence for the statements that he made to the scrutiny committee
01:05:44 did you take any steps yourself to investigate what mr black had told the scrutiny committee regarding the grenfell action group's blog posts uh no i didn't why is that um well
01:05:56 i didn't why is that um well nobody had i don't think mentioned it to me at the time mr black was the chief executive of the tmo he'd been asked to appear at the housing property scrutiny committee and report on the power surge problem i don't know what he
01:06:08 power surge problem i don't know what he said i wasn't at that meeting um the director of housing would have been there the cabinet member for housing
01:06:14 housing would have been there the chairman of the scrutiny committee would have been there
01:06:18 there and um i can't really say any more other than
01:06:23 than that the issue of the power surges had been dealt with and it appeared to have been dealt with satisfactorily and some of these blogs and mr daffan's statements as we saw in the earlier letter to me i i thought were overstated
01:06:35 letter to me i i thought were overstated and hugely inaccurate did you raise this allegation with mr black in one of your regular meetings with him
01:06:41 with him um i don't recall doing so was that don't think it was sort of registering as a very i mean i was trying to meet mr daphon
01:06:52 i was trying to meet mr daphon elicit what might be the way forward on the lancaster west finger block estate um
01:06:59 um he'd written some quite what should i say colorfully worded uh letters which i thought were inaccurate and wrong um and now there's this
01:07:10 now there's this reference to the to the power surges where he doesn't seem satisfied with the report that's been sent to the uh to the scrutiny committee and i didn't know what mr black might or
01:07:22 and i didn't know what mr black might or might not have said and i thought there were other people in a better position to uh deal with it than me did you meet mr tafan i think you did at the end of november 2013 as the follow-up meeting there was a follow-up meeting i can't remember when
01:07:33 follow-up meeting i can't remember when right at that follow-up meeting did you ask mr daphon what it was that mr black had said which he mr daphon said was false no i don't think it was on my radar that um mr black had said false
01:07:44 um mr black had said false things and that i didn't feel it if that was the allegation it was one i had to sort out
01:07:49 sort out right was the meeting at the end of november
01:07:53 november 2013 the last occasion uh on which you met him
01:07:58 met him um no i saw him at a number of events i think i mentioned the west london city i'm sorry but when i say met him i met him i met him as part of an agreed meeting
01:08:09 as part of an agreed meeting rather than an encounter uh yes yes i think i think that was the last formal meeting he and i had yes was it constructive do you remember um i fear it wasn't
01:08:21 fear it wasn't let's look at rbk302 please this is an email sent by you to mr daffan of the 30th of january 2014.
01:08:33 2014. dear edward thank you for your further email and subsequent reminder i apologize
01:08:37 apologize for the delay in replying
01:08:41 and i could read it all to you um but let me just ask ask you to look please at the third paragraph whenever i ask you whether residents favor refurbishment or reconstruction of the estate you're not able to advise me or even to
01:08:52 not able to advise me or even to reassure me that you're speaking for a reasonable number of residents instead you resort to wild and inaccurate allegations about what the council is planning to do the estate management board has clearly found it difficult to attract residents
01:09:03 found it difficult to attract residents to serve on it so perhaps it has outlived its usefulness as a tool to manage the estate
01:09:07 estate at our last meeting i also mentioned the tmo survey of residence which gives a different picture from that painted by you given your opposition to almost every suggestion that has come forward i might have lost to know
01:09:17 to know how to proceed the power surges are a matter for the utility company and individual claims should be made against it
01:09:23 it i understand that the tma has also approved an ex gratis payment to tenants who were affected i'm sorry we appear to have exhausted constructive dialogue on how to approve this estate um what aspects of mr daphne's
01:09:37 estate um what aspects of mr daphne's allegations against the council did you consider to be wild and inaccurate well i think i'd be worried when i got the original letter about the slum conditions and as i say i hadn't been
01:09:48 conditions and as i say i hadn't been there for a long time and i thought it was an opportunity to go and look and when i went and looked i didn't find slum conditions so that to me was reassuring and it was misleading in the letter
01:09:56 letter um i think he referred somewhere in one of those letters to a fascist decant policy um and i thought that was immensely
01:10:04 immensely uh potentially damaging because that was absolutely not the uh not the intention of the council i've tried to explain that we'd at some point we passed a motion saying
01:10:15 at some point we passed a motion saying that any regeneration on any estate would enable all tenants and leaseholders who wish to do so to return so i thought if the idea that the council was running a fascist um fascist decamp policy was
01:10:28 um fascist decamp policy was was um i thought the estate management board
01:10:32 board it was clear that it wasn't going to spring back in into life um and i think the claims about the equipment that was destroyed i think we covered that a few minutes ago but i
01:10:44 we covered that a few minutes ago but i think my view was well if something has been destroyed then the tmo could could for for good will pay for it to be replaced but these were small items and i was reassured that there wasn't a fire risk
01:10:55 there wasn't a fire risk what was the source of your understanding that the tmo had approved an ex
01:10:59 an ex gracious payment to tenants who were affected
01:11:03 affected as you say there um
01:11:08 i can't remember now who told me that um but i i noticed i've coppered in counts of fielding melon he might have told me or somebody might have told me
01:11:20 told me or somebody might have told me that
01:11:20 that um really in the overall scheme of things
01:11:24 things this was not huge this was um somebody clearly had agreed a next garage show payment i thought that was a good idea
01:11:31 good idea uh and that to my mom was the end of the matter did you engage with mr daphon further following this email um or is this the end of the chain i think it's the end of the chain i i
01:11:42 i think it's the end of the chain i i don't know if he if he replied to this uh now moving further on uh we um can go to 2015. if you go to your second statement please page six and go
01:11:53 second statement please page six and go to paragraph 22 you mentioned three visits to grenfell tower
01:11:59 tower on on three occasions 22nd of october 2015
01:12:03 2015 11th of may 2016 and 13th of may 2016. if you if you can see there yes where you say say that um can we look at rbk405826 please at
01:12:16 um can we look at rbk405826 please at page one
01:12:21 this is an uh if we go to the foot of page one an email from rita dexter of uh london fire uh of the 14th of july 2014 to to nicholas
01:12:32 of the 14th of july 2014 to to nicholas holgate and she attaches two documents entitled
01:12:35 entitled a guide on fire safety for use during estate visits and council a guide on fire safety for use during council meetings and she explains in her letter as you can see at the foot of the of the page there
01:12:46 there that those guys have been produced following the coroner's recommendations uh in to the tragic deaths of six people at lachnal in 2009
01:12:59 and cutting a long story short we know that nicholas holgate forwarded those guides to mel barrett and laura johnson and laura johnson in turn forwarded those guides to cancel the fielding
01:13:10 those guides to cancel the fielding melon and councillor marshall do you remember seeing those guides um i honestly can't remember i do
01:13:21 um i honestly can't remember i do i'll show you one can can i look yes lfb four zero is one two nine four and one two nine five let's have them up side by side please
01:13:31 that's that that's the one about estate visits
01:13:34 visits and if we have one two nine five please at the same time there's a red one there it is uh and that's about fire safety for use during council meetings do they
01:13:42 do they do they look familiar to you they're striking documents um i think you'd agree
01:13:47 agree they they do look familiar but that's all i can say really i think i've seen these before and i think i must have seen them at the time right soon after the time right you think you saw them at the time
01:13:58 right you think you saw them at the time would you have read them at the time glanced at them right uh glancing at it would you have seen
01:14:04 seen on the looking at the blue one first of all um
01:14:08 all um the text on the right hand side under the tower question mark confirming the emergency evacuation is in place would you have seen that read that um
01:14:19 would you have seen that read that um well i probably did but i would have assumed that that was being dealt with by um by others right and i when i said well yeah emergency
01:14:32 and i when i said well yeah emergency evacuation plan but also stay put principle and that's what sort of been drummed into me for years that uh if there was a fire people should stay put except the
01:14:43 fire people should stay put except the people in the in the flat that was on fire so right um you say it was drummed into you did you glance at the second page left hand column and the bullet points there
01:14:55 the bullet points there underneath the words you can ask it's not on the screen we need the blue version second page there it is top left hand corner what emergency evacuation plan is in place for this building
01:15:07 place for this building resident's been informed about it our fire escapes in other parts of the escape route such as corridors stairwells check regular obstructions emergency lighting and signage uh did you look at that do you think
01:15:18 you look at that do you think um i probably did yes i mean i can't say it's
01:15:24 looking at it but i think i did you know i would have noticed the thing about fire escapes and means of escape and blockages in in corridors and on staircases and putting in uh lighting on stairs all
01:15:36 and putting in uh lighting on stairs all this kind of thing but i would expect that to be dealt with by the tmo team responsible for health and safety i mean
01:15:42 mean this is useful for me to know but this is actually something that would be uh checked on by the tmo yes you made three visits to grenfell tower on the dates we've we've looked at yes after that's after
01:15:53 we've looked at yes after that's after the date on which you received with this document do you remember asking any of these questions in respect of grenfell tower during those visits um i think in one of the visits there
01:16:04 um i think in one of the visits there was an issue about the numbering of the flaws and that was sort of under discussion while i was sort of while i was there i think right because they found that they actually found some more
01:16:14 more property at the bottom of the tower in previous
01:16:19 rooms that i think have been used for maintenance and plants and they've been able to turn those into flats but then they had a numbering issue how did you
01:16:26 you number them and i think at the time i visited where work was still on ongoing to some extent they were um dealing with that issue right and that was that issue resolved to your personal satisfaction do you remember uh i can't remember i don't
01:16:38 i can't remember i don't know i don't know you didn't follow up on it no no can we look at the red version
01:16:42 version uh please at lfe40 is one two nine five this is the counsellor guide on fire safety for use during council meetings and if you go to page two in that please
01:16:54 you can see uh it says what can councillors do do not make assumptions that fire safety is being actively or effectively managed in purpose-built blocks of flats and maisonets in your borough
01:17:06 maisonets in your borough councillors can make their boroughs safer by scrutinizing how responsibilities for fire safety are met and ensuring that the fire safety in your borough is continuously being monitored and improved did you read that um i probably did at
01:17:18 did you read that um i probably did at the time yes did you unders did you understand it i understood it and i would have assumed from what it said there that the housing and property scrutiny committee and
01:17:29 and you mentioned earlier laura johnson passing this to the chairman that that's that would feature in their scrutiny of the of the tmo and the
01:17:36 the premises to no premises in general yes by making that assumption were you not doing exactly what the lfb was advising you not to do um possibly possibly can you but i i
01:17:48 um possibly possibly can you but i i thought there was a structure in place for dealing with um fire safety scrutiny and that that was the housing and property scrutiny committee it was receiving
01:17:57 receiving reports as i understood it on fire risk assessment after la canal that had been supplemented by um i think additional reports on what was being done on
01:18:07 done on on we talked about it yesterday the closers and the the new doors and that kind of thing and i thought the scrutiny committee was the point of focus in the council where this would be happening uh
01:18:21 this would be happening uh did reading this text not prompt you to say to uh those responsible on the officer's side i i need to be assured afresh
01:18:33 assured afresh that there is an adequate and effective system in place whereby the scrutiny of the tmo's performance in relation to fire safety uh is being properly
01:18:47 fire safety uh is being properly performed
01:18:48 performed well i didn't ask that of the officers but i probably didn't ask it because i felt that that was happening and that the uh
01:18:56 the uh reports that the scrutiny committee got from the tmo were incorporating uh details of what was being done on fire safety the feeling feeling that it's already happening well it was what you're not supposed to do in
01:19:07 it was what you're not supposed to do in response to this notice would you accept that it says do not make assumptions that fire safety is being actively or effectively managed no i wasn't making an assumption i was
01:19:19 no i wasn't making an assumption i was that the notice is saying you need to make sure that councillors are scrutinizing what the fire risk arrangements for the for the tmo properties are and i was comfortable that the housing
01:19:30 and i was comfortable that the housing and property scrutiny committee was doing that and that therefore what this says was being was being met so i don't think i would have thought about it anymore so you didn't take a fresh look at the
01:19:41 so you didn't take a fresh look at the scrutiny arrangements but no idea in relation to fire safety no uh
01:19:48 if we go to tmo well mr chairman i'm noticing the time yeah i'm not far off the end but i won't finish before
01:19:59 the end but i won't finish before an appropriate moment for a break well that's the question do you think you have more than about 10 minutes less than yes probably about 15 or
01:20:07 or 20 possibly i'd say 20 minutes to be safe and that's what i think in that case
01:20:12 case yes yes mr patrick brown i'm just feeling the ground to see whether it might be possible to get to the end of your questions before we had a break but i think probably it'd be wiser to have the break now
01:20:23 have the break now so we'll stop now we'll resume please at 25 to 12
01:20:26 25 to 12 and then we'll carry on then and please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room thank you all right thank you very much thank you
01:20:46 all right thank you very much thank you 25 to 12 please
01:36:27 you've asked us to padgett brown to come back in please thank you
01:36:44 right mr patrick brown ready to carry on yes indeed sir good thank you very much yes mr miller yes mr chairman thank you mr padgett brown can i ask you please to be shown tmo one double zero four two nine seven nine
01:37:07 four two nine seven nine yes thank you very much and now this is a letter addressed to you dated the 5th of january 2015 from the lfb uh and it's entitled protecting fire safety in
01:37:20 it's entitled protecting fire safety in refurbished buildings
01:37:24 and if you go to page two it's signed by rita dexter the deputy commissioner you can see that there yep if we go back to
01:37:33 to the first page you can see that in manuscript um somebody's written i think it looks like you're writing as an amateur uh typographer is that yours at the top joanna fyi oh yes that is mine who is joanna that
01:37:45 oh yes that is mine who is joanna that is counselor that was counsellor joanna gardner who was the cabinet member i think i referred to yesterday in my amended statement responsible for um
01:37:57 amended statement responsible for um i.t uh corporate matters and community safety
01:38:00 safety which would include fire and police right i see so this didn't go to the this didn't go to council fielding melon
01:38:11 this didn't go to council fielding melon for example um no because i think it's an audit a request for an audit yes and i thought joanna because she would be having links with the fire brigade
01:38:25 having links with the fire brigade should should know about it should see this and i noticed at the very top of the document which which when that which we can't now see but i noticed she's passed it to the planning department which seems to me to be quite a sensible place to
01:38:36 place to send it to that's right please pass to mr boar yes yes um because they would have the details that would enable the audit to be completed best i think was there any reason i mean
01:38:47 think was there any reason i mean you're right that it discusses the old an audit and in fact from the third paragraph you can see that it it encloses an audit tool yeah the purpose is referred to then did
01:38:58 yeah the purpose is referred to then did you think to pass this to laura johnson no why is that because i thought joanna gardner would be better at getting the audit completed because she would um as the community safety uh
01:39:11 um as the community safety uh person for the whole for the whole borough um would do exactly what in fact she has done which is to talk to the planners or get the planners probably in reality to complete the um survey because they would have plans of
01:39:23 because they would have plans of borough buildings i just wonder about that if you look at the second paragraph uh it says in our experience buildings can and do become compromised into in fire safety terms as a result of refurbishment works
01:39:35 refurbishment works we're all aware of high profile cases but the brigade regularly comes across many other examples and she attaches some
01:39:40 some pen pictures and a death as a consequence and then she says this we consider that refurbishment works that compromise fire safety pose a serious risk to the safety of residents and the general public
01:39:52 residents and the general public and that therefore authorities need a strategy for assessing that risk and for taking
01:39:56 taking appropriate remedial action right now just pausing there given that this was to do with refurbishment works uh why not send this
01:40:07 uh why not send this directly to those councillors who are more directly responsible for refurbishment works whether as part of the tmo or or
01:40:19 whether as part of the tmo or or other aspects of casey's property estate
01:40:24 well there are 19 towers in the borough and i think at any time in the future there may have been refurbishment works of other towers
01:40:36 refurbishment works of other towers that was being discussed that was a possibility um it seemed to me grenfell tower this was 2015
01:40:43 was 2015 so work was i think by now well underway and grenfell tower had hired fire safety consultants and um i i didn't actually think this
01:40:54 and um i i didn't actually think this was
01:40:56 was i didn't i actually felt this would be better going through the council and looking at all the council's high high-rise buildings and because they might be refurbished in future and grandfather
01:41:08 refurbished in future and grandfather was taken care of by having a fire safety as far as a new fire safety consultant advising on what was going to be done and so i didn't think that we needed to worry about grenfell
01:41:20 that we needed to worry about grenfell that was being taken care of um right right two things flow from that first you say as far as i knew there was a fire safety
01:41:32 as far as i knew there was a fire safety consultant involved in the grenfell tower refurbishment what was the basis of that understanding how did you um come to know that
01:41:45 i don't now remember but i must at some point have seen a list of the various people the contractors that were
01:41:52 that were involved in doing different things at the tower and i know one of them was was fire safety and i'm sure when the discussions took place with the architects and with ryden's they would have um
01:42:02 have um wanted to have fire safety advice so right i felt that that was being taken i don't know quite how i mean you do pick up all sorts of things over over the years and um i don't know how i knew it but i think i did know it
01:42:14 think i did know it so was it because of that understanding as you've just explained it that you didn't think that it was necessary
01:42:21 necessary to put this document into the hands of either the councillors or officers of the
01:42:28 the of our bkc so as to ensure that the tmo had it um
01:42:37 perhaps i should have done that um it could have gone it could have gone the other way
01:42:41 other way but uh i think then everybody would have said oh it's about grenfell and we've got
01:42:46 got you know the fire safety at grenfell is being considered by the fire safety consultants um and then the other 18 towers which might at some point have been refurbished i think this was asking for an audit um you know it seemed to me
01:42:59 an audit um you know it seemed to me that this was a sensible place to send it but maybe in retrospect it wasn't in fact it did come to david gibson in february 2015
01:43:12 or rather the audit tool did do you remember whether you tabled this letter as a discussion topic in cabinet uh no i'm sure i didn't uh discuss it in cabinet uh
01:43:27 uh discuss it in cabinet uh you'd is it right that your role was simply to receive it and then hand it on to joanna gardner
01:43:34 well my my role was to i say your role i mean you're what you did yes this letter arrived in in the post bag it's uh audit tool requiring certain technical uh pieces of information
01:43:45 uh pieces of information i thought joanna gardner might want to discuss it with the fire commander or aspects of it um i didn't think grenfell tab needed to the works at grenfell tower i
01:43:56 needed to the works at grenfell tower i felt were being taken care of elsewhere um and work was underway
01:44:01 underway um and she sent this to the planners which struck me as not not a bad place to send it they would have um
01:44:08 have um details of buildings refurbishment they'd have to grant planning permission to any tower that was going to be refurbished and they would have to attach conditions to the planning consent and it seemed to me this wasn't a bad place for it to have
01:44:19 this wasn't a bad place for it to have ended up
01:44:20 ended up i didn't necessarily think she didn't immediately pass it to the planners but she did and i certainly at the time wouldn't have had a quarrel with it did you look at the appendix to this letter on page three do you think
01:44:30 you think page three we can see it there case studies of failure of project far case studies of failure of fire protection measures as you can see at the top of the page there did you look at that do you think
01:44:46 i i don't remember when whether i did or not
01:44:50 not i really don't remember do you remember having any thoughts about challenges or risks to the integrity of compartmentation in tower blocks as a result of refurbishment
01:45:01 refurbishment um seeing this letter well i knew compartmentation was very important and that planners would be looking to make sure that any plans submitted would would not compromise compartmentation so
01:45:13 not compromise compartmentation so people
01:45:13 people thought that this was going to be discussed by the cabinet member for community safety with the fire commander for the borough and that planners would look to make sure that when plans did come
01:45:24 to make sure that when plans did come forward there were conditions and care was taken it seemed to me this was something that officers in that department should should see and take account of now the letter attached an audit tool um
01:45:36 now the letter attached an audit tool um let's look at that it's tmo10042956
01:45:49 that's the first page of it that's the introductory part it and describes what the audit tool
01:45:56 tool does and has namely three parts do you remember looking at that um no i suspect i probably only read the covering letter
01:46:07 covering letter quite quite carefully um there's some technical detail here which uh um no i don't i don't recall looking at this
01:46:16 this right but perhaps just look at page two as a visual exercise and to see if this triggers a recollection did you did you look at the detail of this in particular this is just going back to the first page just
01:46:27 just going back to the first page just for a moment it does talk about cross-disciplinary working which does suggest that several departments need to be involved in this was that a thought that you had at the time um the document or a thought that
01:46:38 time um the document or a thought that just occurred to you now looking at it now
01:46:40 now i think it's probably occurred to me now but i can quite see that this could have ended up in you know various places we were talking earlier about the environmental health audit the by borough environmental health audit but i think actually it was very
01:46:52 but i think actually it was very sensible to send it to the planners because the planning is the gatekeeping when a planning application comes in and they want to make sure that whatever plans
01:47:00 plans there are for refurbishing it out don't compromise compartmentation so it seemed to me that was the right place for it to go and sorry i i realize that's diverted you from what you wanted not at all no my question was
01:47:11 you wanted not at all no my question was was if you go to page two whether you actually looked at the details uh no no not not not at this um no i didn't no now uh david gibson told us in evidence and
01:47:23 uh david gibson told us in evidence and just for reference purposes it's day 53 page uh 201 at line 20 to page 202 at line
01:47:30 line 7 that this tool was never used by the tmo to address whether grenfell tower was compliant even though it was plainly relevant to the grenfell tower
01:47:41 plainly relevant to the grenfell tower refurbishment are you able to account for why the tmo senior management involved in that project
01:47:48 project did not think that it was relevant to apply to that project
01:47:55 well presumably when the planning application for grenfell tower went forward that preceded this document by some
01:48:02 some considerable period of time
01:48:07 and it still seems to me that for future refurbishments this document is best completed by planning people who can then make sure the appropriate condition
01:48:19 appropriate condition is attached to any future planning application and i think this i think the grenfell application was much earlier than this document let's look back at your correspondence
01:48:30 let's look back at your correspondence log again
01:48:33 log again slightly different topic rbk three zeros five four four two five we looked at it earlier this morning uh but if we go to page three
01:48:44 uh but if we go to page three we can see the entry for the 22nd of october
01:48:48 october 2015 and that's
01:48:56 in bold second item down from the top npb
01:48:59 npb visit to grenfell tower works see item 3 little roman 1 of npb meeting with town clark on 23rd october 2015 recording this
01:49:08 this met at ryden compound do you remember what the purpose of your visit to grenfell tower was on that date
01:49:18 i'm really not remembering it at all clearly i think it was what they call a hard hat tour and it would have been to see how the works were coming on
01:49:29 see how the works were coming on this is um october 2015 so yes i think the works would have been well underway probably in mid mid progress yes and i think it was a some what i might call a courtesy visit
01:49:40 some what i might call a courtesy visit to to see what was happening and um but i don't really in all honesty i don't really remember it very much right did you remember meeting with any residents during that visit um no i don't think so
01:49:54 um no i don't think so no i think it was just the some of the contractors and the uh was there any discussion that you recall that took place involving you or that
01:50:05 that took place involving you or that you heard about fire safety during that visit um
01:50:14 now i really can't remember the visits and the conversations i had very much at all and i i can't say they would have included fire safety i really can't recall the visit very clearly if we stick with
01:50:26 the visit very clearly if we stick with the same document but go to page four please you can see that there's an entry at the top of the page from the 11th of may 2016 which says
01:50:37 may 2016 which says with officers robert black and councillor fielding mellon fm visit grenfell tower call in on a resident
01:50:44 resident was this dennis murphy who died in the fire npb
01:50:48 fire npb took photos do you remember why you visited
01:50:51 visited the tower that day um yes i think i think the works were beginning to to near the end and i think the
01:51:00 the um tma wanted to show us what had been done and um
01:51:10 i think we had an initial look at the boxing club we looked at the club room downstairs i think work was underway at the nursery at the back um and then they arranged for us to to
01:51:21 um and then they arranged for us to to go
01:51:22 go and meet a resident
01:51:25 do you remember why actually i do just one other thing yes while i'm talking about that i think i had picked up maybe from councillor blakeman i'm not sure that there was an issue with some residents about the location of their
01:51:36 residents about the location of their new
01:51:37 new boilers being put in the hall and not in the
01:51:41 the in the kitchen and i think i wanted to see one of those and they arranged for us to go and meet uh the resident who i fear might have been mr murphy
01:51:51 mr murphy right you say that do you remember why you called on dennis murphy i think he'd been chosen as prepared to have a group of people walk around his flat in the middle of the morning and let us have a have a look at what had
01:52:03 let us have a have a look at what had been done were you aware or did you become aware during that visit that dennis murphy was a vulnerable resident who suffered from a serious respiratory illness um
01:52:14 respiratory illness um not on julia i think i know i think i noted that he was elderly and perhaps somewhat
01:52:17 somewhat um infirm but not not not to the point that not being able to move around the flat and um
01:52:24 did your meeting mr murphy or your visit to his flat uh lead you to ask any questions about what provision had been made for the evacuation of
01:52:35 had been made for the evacuation of vulnerable residents such as him in the event of a fire
01:52:40 no i didn't ask that because again my understanding would be that if there was a fire it would be contained if it was in mr murphy's flat he should
01:52:50 he should leave the fire which i sorry leave the flat which i thought he was capable of doing close the door um and i i don't think anybody could
01:53:01 and i i don't think anybody could possibly have envisaged the circumstances of the june june the 14th fire where the fire
01:53:08 fire engulfed the whole building simultaneously it just wasn't within our range of
01:53:12 range of experience or or knowledge and um so i would have expected compartmentation to have meant that mr murphy would have left the flat if there had been a
01:53:23 left the flat if there had been a problem
01:53:24 problem and that fire brigade would have come and they would have helped him out right so was it your thought at the time that in the event he had to evacuate from his flat
01:53:35 from his flat leave aside a more general fire he would be assisted up by the lfb yes right did you have any thoughts about whether there was any personal evacuation plan
01:53:46 evacuation plan for him in place um no i thought that would be the personal evacuation plan that he would leave the flat
01:53:55 flat and the fire brigade would come quickly and they would help him out if he was vulnerable and they i think there are i think i understood there were two lifts and one of them could be
01:54:05 could be dedicated for fire who told you that um i don't remember but i did know right we were aware in general of some of a program in general use called peeps personal
01:54:17 in general use called peeps personal emergency evacuation plans to be used for vulnerable residents in high-rise residential blocks um no i can't say that i was aware that they were in news so does it follow from
01:54:29 they were in news so does it follow from that that you weren't aware whether or not the tmo had a program in place for completing peeps for individual vulnerable residents in their housing stock
01:54:40 residents in their housing stock um no i wasn't aware of that but i was aware that the tma were
01:54:48 were putting together and designing um i think what they call the customer relations database which will give them a picture of every
01:54:59 which will give them a picture of every property that the tma was responsible for managing and could see who lived there and um on that database you could mark particular things that might be worthy of note that there was a vulnerable
01:55:10 of note that there was a vulnerable resident maybe um or indeed other other things and that that was all linked to the repairs program was the database called the crm do you remember see yeah i think it was yes yes was the
01:55:21 yeah i think it was yes yes was the evacuation of vulnerable residents ever discussed as a subject in cabinet um i don't believe it was no thank you mr chairman i've come to the end of my prepared questions
01:55:33 end of my prepared questions for mr budget brown yes might be a convenient moment to take the customary final break yes thank you well mr fudgy brown as you may know we at this stage when council thinks he's reached the end of his questions we have
01:55:44 reached the end of his questions we have to have a little break first of all to let him check that he has indeed reached the end of his questions but also to allow others who are not present to
01:55:52 to suggest other questions we perhaps should ask you so we're going to break now we'll
01:55:57 now we'll uh 10 past 12 just a minute would that be all right i think so yes if i need longer i can apply well we'll come back at 10 past 12 see if there any more questions at that point um and in the meantime please don't talk
01:56:08 um and in the meantime please don't talk to anyone about your evidence thank you would you like to give the usher then please
01:56:24 right 10 past 12. thank you
02:11:14 would you ask us the patrick brown to come back in please
02:11:27 right mr badger brown we'll see if there are more questions for you yes sister yes mr chairman just one or two mr patrick brown um the first is in relation to the power surges
02:11:36 surges and you said this morning that you felt reassured that there that the power surges had not in fact presented a fire risk to the residents of grenfell tower i'm summarizing your evidence but that was the gist of it i think
02:11:48 was the gist of it i think uh did you let me show you a document
02:11:55 z-u-r-6025 please
02:12:04 now this is a report by rge services limited prepared for the insurers zurich entitled flat sub main rising and
02:12:16 entitled flat sub main rising and lateral supplies report 29th may 2013
02:12:22 and it starts the tenants above floor 10 we're reporting smokers use lights and power failing intermittently and then on testing the incoming supplies sub main cable voltages were
02:12:33 supplies sub main cable voltages were shown as unusually high as indicated below
02:12:36 below and there's some technical data set out there
02:12:39 there if you scroll down the screen please to lower down
02:12:47 on page one you can see the rest of that and it says we then carried out a more in-depth
02:12:53 in-depth investigation uh and uh more detail is set out uh and then on page two we turn to that please
02:13:04 on page two we turn to that please you can see uh that it says uh further investigation found badly damaged enclosure and service cable in the lower ground floor riser cupboard where there is evidence of severe burn
02:13:15 where there is evidence of severe burn and arcing damage and then in the third paragraph it says on inspection we found loose connections and the neutral cable had melted away from the clamp connections and could have caused a fire within the
02:13:27 and could have caused a fire within the riser
02:13:28 riser police see attached photos on the following sheets do you uh remember being told um that the damage that they had found
02:13:39 that the damage that they had found could have in fact caused a fire within the riser i don't remember being told that um i do remember
02:13:49 remember being told about the arcing what had given you the impression that there had been no fire risk when we can see from this report that there was a fire risk i i don't
02:14:01 that there was a fire risk i i don't think i have seen this report and i was basing my earlier comments on i think a paper which had gone to the housing and property
02:14:10 property scrutiny committee and i think it was that i did see and it was that they gave me reassurance i don't think i've seen this did from your recollection did this report not also go to the housing and property
02:14:21 also go to the housing and property scrutiny committee um i don't know is the answer it may have done
02:14:25 have done but i don't recall having seen this report right but i think i saw a covering report if it had gone to the housing property scrutiny committee do you accept that you would not be have been laboring under the
02:14:36 be have been laboring under the impression that there had been no fire risk as a result of the damage to the electrical cables identified here
02:14:46 well clearly this sets out information i either didn't have or didn't didn't take at the time um and and clearly there is there is a risk in the in the riser yes yes thank you
02:14:57 in the riser yes yes thank you um we we also looked this morning at um mr daphne's allegations uh against the council and i asked you which you considered to be wild and
02:15:08 which you considered to be wild and inaccurate and the slum conditions was one and also the what you what was referred to as the fascist decant policy
02:15:20 decant policy which you you said was you thought that if the
02:15:23 if the council was running a fascist decant policy then that was in your words ludicrous
02:15:28 ludicrous uh do you remember just leaving aside the rhetoric for the moment and just getting to the the core point do you remember that mr defon's
02:15:37 defon's concern was that the core strategy had contained a guaranteed right of return in the event of regeneration but the council's decant policy hadn't or didn't do you remember that um
02:15:51 or didn't do you remember that um all i remember is well i think i remember the core strategy certainly having that yeah i didn't know that the revised decamp policy didn't make that clear but i'm sure we would have wanted between council filling mellon and myself to
02:16:03 council filling mellon and myself to make it clear that any decant policy must
02:16:05 must include a right to return and that was full council policy passed by the council and that would have trumped any local uh document that might have existed
02:16:16 uh document that might have existed saying otherwise so the council was very clear that residents who lived in refurbished estates or states that were to be refurbished should have the right to return to their flats or to a similar
02:16:27 return to their flats or to a similar property
02:16:28 property in that development and resident leaseholders um and that was the clear council policy it was certainly my uh clear policy and council field of
02:16:39 uh clear policy and council field of mellon's clear policy so i'm not quite sure what the other decant policy uh not quite sure where it deviates from that i'd have to i'd have to go back and look at it i'll show you but before i do do you
02:16:51 i'll show you but before i do do you remember that that the guaranteed right of return was originally included in the draft decant policy but did not make its way into the final decant policy do you remember that as a feature or
02:17:03 do you remember that as a feature or fact
02:17:04 fact at the time um i don't now remember that i'm not sure why it came out it certainly wasn't taken out with my approval but i don't know when were the dates of those well let's just
02:17:15 were the dates of those well let's just look at the document iws
02:17:26 402075 and this is the first page of the decant policy
02:17:31 policy and if you look at page two you can see what the purpose is
02:17:41 you see that and if you go to page 22 this is the final version
02:17:48 if you go to page 22 uh you can see under paragraph 7.9 under right to return it says the council will seek to
02:18:00 it says the council will seek to negotiate a right to return for as many affected eligible residents as possible right to return means the right to return to the same area where the regeneration has taken place once the new properties have been re built or redeveloped has taken place
02:18:12 built or redeveloped has taken place this cannot be guaranteed and will depend on the particular circumstances of each individual regeneration scheme using this policy
02:18:22 that's not a guaranteed right of return it's a
02:18:25 it's a qualified right of return isn't it yeah something appears to have been inserted to make this less uh robust than the politicians would have intended i don't quite know how that got
02:18:37 don't quite know how that got in there but it's certainly not our view our view was that the right to return was unconditional right look looking at it now do you accept that mr devon might have had a point about he he might have had a part i don't think
02:18:48 he might have had a part i don't think this is a fascist decant policy but it's it's loosely worded and it conflicts with the local plan and it conflicts with the
02:18:55 with the views of members thank you very much thank you
02:18:59 thank you um finally mr uh paget brown we've been through quite a lot of evidence over the last day or so and i i i get to ask you the question that
02:19:09 that i ask a number of witnesses in senior positions who come and assist us looking back on it uh is there anything now that you would have done differently in your post as deputy leader or leader
02:19:20 in your post as deputy leader or leader at the time
02:19:23 well i do think about that an awful lot as you can imagine since uh 2017 i think i would be very nervous now of high-rise
02:19:34 be very nervous now of high-rise developments in general and refurbishments in particular there are clearly a number of issues which are are difficult or potentially difficult i think high-rise buildings
02:19:45 think high-rise buildings anyway quite apart from the architecture the design the refurbishment um are not always the happiest places to live you can be very lonely very isolated
02:19:55 isolated there are all sorts of issues uh when you do live on a in a high-rise flat so i don't think necessarily they're the best way forward for the future i think now i would favor mansion blocks
02:20:07 i think now i would favor mansion blocks which do exist in a large part of kensington and chelsea and i think that that would be a better model for future housing um i think also i would think hard about
02:20:18 um i think also i would think hard about the phrase arms length management organization it does seem that their the phrase arm's length itself is quite vague and open to different interpretations and it seemed
02:20:29 different interpretations and it seemed to me the happy idea in the 1990s that you might devolve power hasn't really meant that it really has meant that council should be running housing directly um and maybe that's something else that
02:20:42 and maybe that's something else that needed
02:20:42 needed to change um i'm very sorry i didn't have more influence with the government of the day at the time or just after the fire we heard in one of the submissions to
02:20:54 we heard in one of the submissions to this the opening statements to this module that an email had been sent to the cabinet secretary saying this needed to be seen as a local failure otherwise it would be seen
02:21:05 local failure otherwise it would be seen as a systemic failure and it seems to me from what i've heard and read that what we've seen that this is a systemic failure this material is in widespread use everywhere i was very proud to be leader
02:21:19 everywhere i was very proud to be leader of kensington and chelsea i'm desperately sorry for everybody who was in the tower on the morning of the 14th of june i will never forget what i saw it was utterly utterly terrible the memorial to
02:21:31 utterly utterly terrible the memorial to those who lost their lives and lost everything and have had their lives ruined
02:21:35 ruined must be that the work that this inquiry is doing to find out what really happened uh can never happen again and that must be the memorial
02:21:44 memorial to those that lost their lives and i'm so sorry for all of them
02:21:51 yes thank you very much well mr patrick brown it only remains for me to thank you for coming here and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely grateful to you thank you
02:22:00 you yes and that's right that i should thank you as well mr padgett run on behalf of all the members of the panel for your coming here to give your evidence we always find it very helpful to hear from those who are directly involved in
02:22:11 from those who are directly involved in these events and there's no exception in your case it's been very helpful to hear your evidence so thank you very much for coming to give it to us thank you all very much thank you
02:22:34 not mr millet um we have another witness we have another witness another councillor and uh mr kenya will be taking his evidence right so we may need the normal
02:22:45 evidence right so we may need the normal we'll need a short break both arrangements are made yes you and maybe you can ask the usher to come and get us when they have it certainly thank you very much thank you very much
02:28:36 yes mr clear now you're going to call the next witness so yes could i call quentin marshall thank you very much
02:28:55 thank you very much good morning mr marshall i understand you're going to take videos i am indeed right so you should have a testament there could you take it in your right hand please and repeat the words on the screen i
02:29:06 and repeat the words on the screen i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much and do sit down and make yourself
02:29:20 comfortable
02:29:25 right yes mr claire thanks sir first of all would you please confirm your name for the record quentin marshall thank you for coming to give evidence today as some preliminary notes if at any time
02:29:37 as some preliminary notes if at any time during evidence you require a break please say so secondly would you please keep your voice up so that transcriber can capture everything you say thirdly and finally please don't nod or
02:29:48 thirdly and finally please don't nod or shake your head in response to an answer please say yes or no as the the question demands
02:29:54 demands so the transcriber can carefully record that for you now you have provided three statements the first statement is dated the 29th of october 2018
02:30:05 october 2018 rbk trouble zero double three seven double four and that should come up on the screen
02:30:15 there's a second statement provided to the metropolitan police date at the 17th of september 2019 which is a met trouble zero six four nine eight seven
02:30:29 and finally provided the second statement to the inquiry dated the 27th of september 2019 which is
02:30:36 is rbk trouble zero five double four three one
02:30:42 have you read each of those statements recently
02:30:45 recently yes can you confirm that the contents of each are true yes and before coming to give evidence today have you discussed your evidence with anyone no thank you now the questioning today
02:30:56 no thank you now the questioning today will focus on your role as chairman of the housing property and scrutiny committee
02:31:00 committee and the first matters i'd like to discuss with you are the principles of good scrutiny now can we look at a document called delivering good governance in local government guidance notes for english authorities
02:31:11 guidance notes for english authorities published by the chartered institute of public
02:31:13 public finance and accountancy and that can be found at inq treble zero one four six seven one
02:31:24 and there's the frontiers piece and if we can go to page 90 9-0 of that document
02:31:28 document and paragraph
02:31:41 there we go and if we can look at paragraph 6.9 which set out there the four core principles of good scrutiny first which is provides critical friend
02:31:52 first which is provides critical friend challenge to executive policy makers and decision takers enables the voice and concerns of the public is carried out by independent-minded counsellors who lead and own the process and drives improvement in public
02:32:04 and drives improvement in public services would you agree with those four core principles yes and would you say that you consistently exercise them during your time on the housing property and scrutiny committee
02:32:15 scrutiny committee yes although i think in relation to the second one during my time we were inwardly focused rather than externally focused and that's something that's changed subsequently
02:32:26 subsequently which i think is a good thing and what do you mean by the phrase inwardly focused in contrast to outwardly so most of our time was spent talking to officers
02:32:36 officers and other official bodies such as the tmo rather than talking to residents uh citizens in the borough and was it the fire that prompted the change yes i believe so now can i first of all
02:32:49 yes i believe so now can i first of all turn to hpsc procedure and can we begin by looking at the first document you exhibited to your first witness statement and that can be found at rbk
02:33:04 treble03748-2
02:33:10 and we see the article 6.01 of the rbkc constitution which sets out the general powers of the scrutiny committees and it says there under the heading
02:33:21 and it says there under the heading general duties scrutiny committees are empowered to one review and scrutinize decisions made or actions taken in connection with the discharge of any of the council's functions
02:33:32 functions two recommend and report to the full council including committees of the council
02:33:36 council or the executive including advisory groups in connection with the discharge of any of the council's functions three consider any matter affecting the royal borough or its inhabitants four excise the right to call in for
02:33:48 four excise the right to call in for reconsideration decisions made but not yet implemented by the executive and five hold an inquiry into a matter which has been the subject of a report from the monitoring officer or the chief finance officer
02:33:59 finance officer and if i could ask us to go to 6.03 which is over the page
02:34:09 we see that to scrutinize the provision planning management and performance of all housing services any property there we get any
02:34:20 any property there we get any partnerships associated with the delivery of housing social housing regeneration and the housing regeneration program supporting people's services the tenant management organization of five
02:34:31 management organization of five six housing strategy housing stock finance and development and seventhly corporate asset management now looking at those extracts of the constitution would you agree that the committee's
02:34:43 would you agree that the committee's role included review and scrutiny of first of all decisions made in connection with the discharge of any of the council's functions
02:34:51 functions yes to the extent that they were within the areas that that committee had oversight over and so in relation to housing it would uh also include considering any matter affecting rbkc or its inhabitants
02:35:04 matter affecting rbkc or its inhabitants yes and ditto provision planning management performance of all housing services yes and the tmo yes and that review and scrutiny would have included the safety
02:35:15 have included the safety and in particular the fire safety of rbkc residents would that be right not explicitly but implicitly yes tmo residents in particular yes and the
02:35:27 tmo residents in particular yes and the committee had no decision-making power but could inquire discuss and question actions of the cabinet
02:35:33 cabinet that's correct offices sorry of the cabinet
02:35:38 cabinet there was some uncertainty because of the existence of a committee uh a scrutiny committee that had uh a role in relation to the cabinet but in relation to housing in relation
02:35:50 but in relation to housing in relation to housing yes then then the housing committee would have scrutinized matters in relation to housing and you could question our bkc officers in relation to housing matters yes we could and the tmo as well yes
02:36:03 yes we could and the tmo as well yes although it was uncertain in retrospect what formal power we had over the tmo in practice yes we had the power to scrutinize the gmo
02:36:12 gmo and a necessary limitation on the excise of that function would be the adequacy of the information you're provided with would you agree with that absolutely now at uh if we can turn to paragraph 11 of your first witness
02:36:24 paragraph 11 of your first witness statement which is rbk trouble zero double three seven double four internal page two
02:36:40 we see that at the bottom of the page you say this and i quote if the committee disagreed with the cabinet member or officers it could not take further action other than to continue to raise the match in public at its meetings the scrutiny process could be frustrating
02:36:52 scrutiny process could be frustrating because we were often given information or told about something after the event we were reliant on officers giving us comprehensive information on the activities in their departments and had almost no independent support
02:37:03 and had almost no independent support our ability to scrutinize was also constrained by the large number of matters within our purview which had to be covered in six meetings a year typically of two hours length each
02:37:12 each this high level approach is apparent in the minutes now you mentioned there the frustration you felt with the process as you were often told things after the event was that a frustration you experienced throughout your time as
02:37:24 experienced throughout your time as chair of the committee yes although i would say towards the end it improved and was an element in causing that
02:37:35 and was an element in causing that frustration the provision of inadequate or insufficient information by the tmo to you not specifically the tmo i'm more thinking about the offices
02:37:47 i'm more thinking about the offices through which information from the tmo came as well so inadequacy insufficiency of information provided by the likes of laura johnson yes what if anything did you do to
02:37:58 yes what if anything did you do to improve the situation and to alleviate your frustration i raised this frequently at the scrutiny steering group and i also had frequent conversations
02:38:10 and i also had frequent conversations with officers about it you said towards the end it improved was that a result of the actions you just outlined yes and did any other
02:38:21 yes and did any other put this differently did the frustrations you felt resonate with other scrutiny chairs to a lesser extent i think i was more vociferous about this than others
02:38:32 vociferous about this than others did you raise the concern about the adequacy of the information you received with miss johnson herself directly
02:38:40 i'm trying to think about adequacy of information probably yes but i can't think for a specific example
02:38:47 example did you raise it with any other member of the housing department directly no all my communications would have been with ms johnson as head of the department which was the protocol in force
02:38:58 force um you refer to the scrutiny committee's ability to refer an issue to a working group at paragraph 18
02:39:05 18 of your witness statement and for reference it's over the page at page four now can you help us with the circumstances in which an issue would be referred
02:39:13 referred to a working group for consideration so typically each year we would select one two or possibly three matters for further investigation
02:39:26 further investigation we would invite i would invite committee members to suggest things that they thought were interesting which they wanted to go and do some more work on that would be discussed at full committee and agreed at full committee
02:39:38 committee and agreed at full committee and can you assist the panel first of all of the type of issue that would be the subject of a working group and then the level of detail into which you'd examine that particular issue
02:39:49 examine that particular issue it could be very varied considering our brief covered not just housing but also property
02:39:54 property typically we tried to do one on each side of our subject matter so one on housing-related matter one on a property related matter is that per year per year yes each working group might
02:40:07 per year yes each working group might have had
02:40:08 have had three four or five members to it those members would meet as many times as they needed to i would imagine typically three or four times
02:40:19 imagine typically three or four times for
02:40:20 for an hour or two and they would be assisted
02:40:23 assisted by officers to pursue their lines of inquiry on whatever the subject matter would have been now in terms of the individuals who would appear before you would the cabinet member with the
02:40:34 would the cabinet member with the housing and property portfolio attended before you to a working group or to the committee the committee generally to the committee normally yes and uh would you usually have the two lead
02:40:45 uh would you usually have the two lead rbkc officers so the lead for housing the lead for property yes we would and so that meant that laura johnson would routinely attend your meetings yes she would have done now you say a paragraph 21
02:40:56 paragraph 21 of your first statement and we turn over the page to it it's page five that you are uncertain and this picks up a point you made some moments ago whether tmo employees had a formal
02:41:07 whether tmo employees had a formal obligation to appear before the scrutiny committee
02:41:10 committee um looked at somewhat differently was that did you ever experience a problem uh with tmo employees attending to answer your questions no hence my thought that
02:41:21 no hence my thought that i don't know whether explicitly they were required to do so because they always did so it wasn't a practical problem it wasn't practical thank you now if we look at paragraph 22 of your witness statement which is up there on the
02:41:32 statement which is up there on the screen
02:41:33 screen you say this and i quote as chairman i would have meetings with senior council officers in order to discuss the agenda for committee meetings as a result i engage with the senior officers more than the average member i would discuss the
02:41:44 member i would discuss the practicalities of how a matter would be addressed
02:41:46 addressed who would address it in which order and for how long those meetings were informal via telephone or face to face were those meetings minuted or in any way recorded i don't believe so
02:41:57 way recorded i don't believe so would you set the agenda for these meetings or would there invariably be no agenda the agenda would be setting the agenda for the committee meeting so the format of the meeting would
02:42:08 would normally be that the officers would say these are the things that are going on and these are the things that we think should be on the agenda and if there was anything else that i thought needed to be added i would suggest that and i seek to
02:42:19 i would suggest that and i seek to understand a little bit about what those issues
02:42:22 issues the issues that they were suggesting uh should appear so i was prepared now can i turn to the fra
02:42:29 fra program uh which you deal with that i'll start to deal with a paragraph 27 of the witness statement in front of us and that can be found at page six and you say there at the bottom of that
02:42:40 and you say there at the bottom of that page this and i quote whilst the hp sc had no direct involvement in fire safety in undertaking its work it took fire safety seriously one of the issues that gained traction was ensuring fire regulation compliant leaseholder
02:42:52 fire regulation compliant leaseholder doors
02:42:53 doors now you say that the committee had no direct involvement in fire safety but would you agree that the committee was charged with reviewing and scrutinizing the approach taken by both the council
02:43:04 both the council and the tmo to fire safety in relation to housing not specifically but yes in in the sense that fire safety was a very important feature of housing policy
02:43:16 feature of housing policy now mr padgett brown said in evidence this morning page seven of the transcript that it was for the hp sc to make sure that the tmo was complying with fras
02:43:26 with fras and fire risk assessments would you agree with that summary no i wouldn't i think it would have been for officers to ensure that the tmo was complying
02:43:37 to ensure that the tmo was complying and it would be for us to check that officers were doing that and that the results of those were adequate
02:43:44 adequate so we wouldn't have had a direct responsibility to check it now looking at paragraph 28 of your witness statements just over the page at page seven
02:43:55 page seven you refer there to a progress report prepared for the committee meeting on the 20th of january 2011. now that report was uh a follow-up uh to an earlier one provided in march
02:44:07 uh to an earlier one provided in march 2010
02:44:08 2010 can we look first at the minutes of what appears to have been the housing environmental health and adult social care scrutiny committee on the 15th of march 2010 which is rbk trouble zero five two five seven
02:44:21 rbk trouble zero five two five seven three
02:44:24 [Applause] now we can see there that you attended the meeting is that right that's correct and if we could turn to page two of these minutes and item a6 at the bottom of the page
02:44:38 and item a6 at the bottom of the page we see there under the heading lga report so that be local government association extinguishing the risk a councillor's guide to fire safety and item a6 says this and i quote miss
02:44:50 and item a6 says this and i quote miss janice ray tmo health and safety advisor was present to amplify the main points of the report with close liaison with the london fire brigade throughout and the assistance of a specialist fire risk assessment consultant
02:45:01 assessment consultant a fire risk assessment program had been drawn up the works of the high risk blocks were now virtually complete attention was now turning to medium risk assessments and if we turn over the page
02:45:14 and if we turn over the page the chief office housing officer confirmed that registered providers in the royal borough had been surveyed following the very serious fire in southwark in july 2009 all the major registered providers had
02:45:25 all the major registered providers had responded and further details could be provided to members on request the head of service residential operations mr key confirmed that a robust inspection scheme with enforcement if necessary covered private rental properties in the
02:45:37 covered private rental properties in the borough
02:45:39 borough so would it be right to take it that you were first made aware of the fire risk assessment program at this meeting in march 2010 i believe so from reading this i had
02:45:51 i believe so from reading this i had been on the committee prior to being the chairman so i'm not certain now whether they've been mentioned of this prior to this date um presumably in your capacity as a
02:46:02 um presumably in your capacity as a member and later chair of the committee you were aware of the latino house fire yes that had come up in in the papers we received
02:46:11 received now janet ray's report addresses guidance that had been sent specifically to councillors to help them in discharge of their fire safety duties can we now turn to that guidance which is at double
02:46:22 to that guidance which is at double tm0100
02:46:24 tm0100 three seven three nine six
02:46:31 i'll just give you the opportunity just to have a quick look at that to familiarize yourself with it
02:46:42 have you seen that document before i don't recall seeing it at all so i don't recall seeing it i might have done but as of today i can't remember it now can we look at the first
02:46:55 remember it now can we look at the first page
02:46:55 page and the top of the right hand column which says this and i quote this guide is for leading counsellors whether you are a leader or deputy leader housing portfolio holder
02:47:06 leader housing portfolio holder regulatory services portfolio holder fire authority member or county fire service portfolio holder overview and scrutiny committee member or almo board member it will give you the information you
02:47:17 it will give you the information you need to be confident that your authority is doing all it can to comply with the law enforce the law and safeguard people in their own homes if things were to go wrong you would need to be able to show that your authority systems can withstand
02:47:29 authority systems can withstand intense scrutiny now you were the vice chair of scrutiny in march 2010 i think and then chair from october 2010 this guidance was clearly relevant to the exercise of your duties
02:47:41 relevant to the exercise of your duties as a scrutineering officer a member yes no i think that's correct now can we look on the second page and roughly one-third down the left-hand column and under the
02:47:55 the left-hand column and under the subtitle
02:47:55 subtitle action the text says this and i quote every multi-occupied building must have a risk assessment that identifies the things that might cause a fire what risks a fire might present and to whom the action you are going to take
02:48:06 whom the action you are going to take and the information you will give to people
02:48:08 people one size will not fit all and you will need to make sure that the person doing the risk assessments on your behalf is competent this is not the duty of the fire authority the risk assessment is a live document
02:48:20 the risk assessment is a live document and will need to be kept under review having an action plan will help you prioritize activity and resources and you'll need to monitor the action plan now that guide uh suggests that councillors had a responsibility to
02:48:32 councillors had a responsibility to check the following and i want to see whether you agree with this that fire risk assessments were being carried out would you agree with that yes that the fire risk assessor was competent
02:48:43 competent yes that action plans arising from from risk assessments were being monitored yes i agree thank you now following that paragraph there's further text which
02:48:54 paragraph there's further text which starts with the words there are three important issues to think about and if that we could go to that thank you and the text says this and i quote the state of fire precautions in your housing stock day-to-day management of communal areas
02:49:05 day-to-day management of communal areas keeping tenants and leaseholders informed
02:49:08 informed in a fire people do not usually die from the fire itself but from toxic smoke so keeping fire precautions such as fire doors and smoke alarms in good repair is essential
02:49:17 essential your repairs policy should identify fire safety as a priority building works may affect fire precautions and in some cases the building regulations require contractors to tell you if the fire safety in the block has changed
02:49:28 fire safety in the block has changed as a result of their work you need to make sure this is happening with systems in place
02:49:33 in place and responsibility clear for the different aspects of fire precautions in the building now that paragraph suggests that counselors should ensure the following first that repairs policy identifies
02:49:44 first that repairs policy identifies fire safety as a priority would you agree with that proposition yes i i do but i'd like to add i think there are
02:49:52 there are different layers between us ensuring that our officers were taking these issues seriously and us actually as particularly scrutiny members being the people implementing it because that i don't consider was our
02:50:03 because that i don't consider was our role
02:50:04 role would you agree that in your capacity as a scrutinizing member that you had to see whether systems were in place with a responsibility clear for different aspects of fire precautions or do you see that as
02:50:16 precautions or do you see that as someone else's function so again i think it would have been our responsibility to check that these matters were being taken seriously and being implemented in turn by officers and the gmo
02:50:28 in turn by officers and the gmo as one of your scrutiny functions did you ever have cause to scrutinize the tmos repairs policy i believe we might have done but i can't
02:50:39 i believe we might have done but i can't be certain why do you think you might have done was it prompted by any particular concern that you can now remember i believe i'm just trying to back my mind i believe there was a
02:50:52 back my mind i believe there was a working group or there was some investigation around repairs in relation to voids
02:50:59 and that's what prompted yes i think so and was your consideration focused on that particular discrete topic of voids yes i think it was i my memory on this
02:51:12 yes i think it was i my memory on this is not very very accurate or very clear now earlier you said that you didn't recall seeing this guidance before
02:51:22 from what source did you seek advice as to what were the relevant fire duties that you were scrutinizing performance of i don't think i ever
02:51:33 performance of i don't think i ever explicitly asked about fire duties did you was there anything you inquired about which could have been taken to be implicit inquiry about the
02:51:44 taken to be implicit inquiry about the extent of fire safety duties and the performance you're scrutinizing well fire
02:51:49 well fire safety arose uh over the course of of the years when i was chairing the committee
02:51:56 committee and i think through that process i felt that we were we were quite active actually in in asking about fire related issues whenever we spotted something particularly around
02:52:08 spotted something particularly around fire doors that suggested that it was of concern we definitely followed up frequently but from what you say is it fair to say this
02:52:19 fair to say this that you never actively sought out understanding of what the nature and extent
02:52:23 extent of the fire safety duties were performance of which you were scrutinizing uh no i think that's true thank you now going back to the text the next paragraph says this and it starts with
02:52:34 paragraph says this and it starts with the words
02:52:35 the words the information you give your residence and if we go to that please the information you give your residents about how to keep safe in their own if in their homes their responsibilities
02:52:47 in their homes their responsibilities and what to do in the fire could save lives
02:52:49 lives your residents may not all have english as a first language or be able to understand written materials easily so that so the information must be in an understandable form giving a leaflet when a new resident moves in is not enough
02:53:01 moves in is not enough regular updates should be given particularly when changes occur following refurbishment for example tenants and residents associations may be able to help with this would you agree with the proposition
02:53:12 would you agree with the proposition that that paragraph gives straightforward comprehensible advice about the importance of informing residents
02:53:19 residents yes i would the next paragraph is under the title
02:53:23 the title confidence and on the right and it's as you see it's on the right hand side of this page
02:53:27 this page and the text says this and i quote there are no prizes for good fire safety management but the penalties are severe you will only be confident if you regularly measure and keep on top of your performance on fire safety
02:53:39 your performance on fire safety this can be evident through local indicators developed for your area such as the number of fire risks sorry such as the number of risk assessments carried out reduction in fires response time to fire
02:53:50 reduction in fires response time to fire safety repairs and feedback from resident surveys would you agree again that that provides comprehensible straightforward advice to councillors discharging scrutiny functions
02:54:01 functions no i'm not sure i would i think there's a multi-tier system in place that was in place we had the tmo
02:54:09 the tmo acting as a manager of of the building stock
02:54:13 stock we had officers intern supervising the contract between the council and the tmo we had executive councillors exercising decision taking powers and then you had scrutiny one stage even
02:54:27 and then you had scrutiny one stage even further removed from this so i think our role was to be assured that the other layers beneath us were conducting all the things that that this document was recommending i
02:54:38 that this document was recommending i don't think it would have been for us to actually be the people doing these activities i'm not suggesting that it is for you
02:54:45 for you to do those activities this document was prepared to assist those members who are excising scrutiny functions
02:54:52 functions so that you knew what you were scrutinizing and my question to you is would you accept that the advice set out in the paragraph under the heading confidence provides straightforward comprehensible
02:55:03 provides straightforward comprehensible uh
02:55:04 uh information as to what steps should be taken to
02:55:07 taken to discharge provision of information obligations to residents yes sorry on that absolutely i agree can we now turn back to the minutes of
02:55:20 can we now turn back to the minutes of the meeting of the 15th of march 2010 which are rbkc trouble zero five two five seven three forward slash three
02:55:36 and you'll see there the second paragraph from the top of the page starts with the words at the suggestion of the chairman and i quote in view of the gravity of counsellors duties in this area
02:55:47 duties in this area so fire safety it was agreed that there would be a follow-up report to the committee in six to nine months this report should focus on identifying progress made to address the recommendations made in the fire risk assessments action plans
02:55:58 assessments action plans in particular progress with the high and medium priority actions now it's clear that the committee was aware as a consequence of the above guidance of the gravity of councillors duties with regards to fire safety
02:56:10 duties with regards to fire safety would you agree with that proposition yes
02:56:14 yes and there was a need to check progress with the actions arising out of fire risk assessments plans would you agree with that yes and that was a continuing obligation yes now can we look at the report
02:56:25 yes now can we look at the report prepared for the january 2011 meeting that you referred to in your witness statement of paragraph 28 and we can find that report at rbk002981
02:56:42 and if we look at paragraph 2.1 at the bottom of the page
02:56:48 it says this the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 came into force in october
02:56:53 october 2006 and introduced requirements for quotes responsible persons close quotes i.e those in control of premises such as landlords
02:57:01 landlords and managing agents to carry out fire risk assessments and also to ensure that there are adequate fire precautions to ensure the safety of all persons legally on the premises now as a result of that report is it
02:57:13 now as a result of that report is it right say that you're aware first of all of the need to carry out fire risk assessments yes and to ensure that adequate fire precautions were in place to ensure safety
02:57:23 safety yes and you were aware also that those requirements were regulatory obligations would you agree with that yes and can we turn over the page and look at paragraphs 3.1 and 3.2
02:57:41 we see there under the heading approach the fire risk assessments in rbkc housing stock 3.1 says and i quote to ensure that the approach is carrying out fire risk assessments across the council's housing stock
02:57:51 stock was fully compliant with the legislation kc tmo and rbkc negotiated with the london fire brigade to agree the approach the program and the time scales
02:58:00 scales for carrying out both the assessments and any works identified by them as necessary for compliance 3.2 the lfe confirmed that they considered a three-year time scale commencing july 2009 for completion of
02:58:13 commencing july 2009 for completion of all fire risk assessments and a five-year time scale also commencing in july 2009 for completion of all works all necessary works to be reasonable
02:58:25 now would you agree that those paragraphs in particular the latter is plain
02:58:29 plain that it was a three-year time scale for completion of fras and a five-year time scale for completion of all necessary works yes was anything put in place or recommended by your committee
02:58:41 recommended by your committee to check the progress of this program so that it was on target for completion by july 2014 i don't believe so outside the regular
02:58:52 i don't believe so outside the regular reports we received would you have put in place particular arrangements to scrutinise compliance with
02:58:59 with programs
02:59:03 you mean generically or in relation to this specific generically or in the past had you i think only in relation to fire doors and is that the leaseholder issue you
02:59:15 and is that the leaseholder issue you referred to earlier on in your efforts yes
02:59:20 did you raise uh full consideration whether
02:59:23 whether compliance with fire risk assessments completing actions arising out of fras ought to have been the subject of a key performance indicator
02:59:33 no i don't believe i did was there any consideration of whether a working group ought to have been established to monster progress of fras and the program that was discussed here at paragraph 3.2
02:59:44 that was discussed here at paragraph 3.2 no
02:59:45 no no committee member or myself suggested that
02:59:50 that so mindful of the time that's a convenient place to is that a good point it is sir right well in that case mr marshall i think we should stop so that we can all get some lunch um we'll resume at two o'clock please
03:00:02 um we'll resume at two o'clock please and i have to ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it over the break right thank you very much i'd like to give the usher there please
03:00:20 thank you two o'clock please sir
03:00:48 you