Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea Evidence - Tuesday 26th April 2022 (1/2)

Name: Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea Evidence - Tuesday 26th April 2022 (1/2)
Uploaded: 2022-04-26
Duration: 2 h 57 min 15 s
Description: Evidence from David Kerry, RBKC contingency planning manager, about emergency preparedness, staffing shortfalls, and lack of training before the fire

26 April 2022 · David Kerry (RBKC), Richard Millett QC, Chairman · 2:57:15

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Evidence from David Kerry, RBKC contingency planning manager, about emergency preparedness, staffing shortfalls, and lack of training before the fire

Key moments

00:28:12AdmissionBorough risk register didn't include tower block fire: 'I don't believe there was that risk in the London risk register either'
00:36:13AdmissionOn annexes to contingency plan: 'Do you accept there were a number of annexes which were either left blank or left in draft form or were outdated or had become superseded? Yes'
00:58:18AdmissionOn communications planning: 'Do you accept RBKC's admission that it failed to set out how different parts of the council would coordinate their communications?' - 'I am not aware of any documents that set that out'
01:41:50Admission'As of June 2017 did you consider that the council RBKC had sufficiently trained personnel who could undertake the roles within the BECC?' - 'No'
01:49:40Witness ImpactPost-fire incident: 'We only just got away with it and I put in a report then and very bluntly said we were at risk of failure... and would likely fail on a future occasion'
01:52:26AdmissionOn 2018 incident requiring evacuation: 'I wrote a report then to the management board that said very explicitly we came very close to failure and would likely fail on a future occasion'
01:59:54AdmissionLast gold group training on strategic command and control before Grenfell was 'some 21 months before the Grenfell Tower fire' in September 2015
02:03:30AdmissionOn two-hour gold training session: 'It wasn't sufficient... I'd asked for a four hour slot... I was compromised I was given two hours'
02:04:49ContentiousOn senior management support for training: 'How supportive did you consider senior management to have been?' - 'Not supportive. There was resistance for senior managers attending some of the training'
02:37:38AdmissionEmail 6 months before fire: 'We are struggling with our BECC at the moment, lots of BECC staff have left over the past few months... we will not be able to run a full BEC exercise'
02:54:35Admission'Was that sufficient to ensure that RBKC staff were adequately trained to respond to a major emergency incident such as the Grenfell Tower fire?' - 'Certainly we could have done better. I should have done better'
02:55:45AdmissionRebecca Blackburn statement: 'In my view the borough's plans had not been properly tested... we did not undertake sufficient large-scale emergency simulations' - Kerry: 'I'm not going to disagree overall'

Full transcript

00:00:22 so

00:00:31 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing

00:00:34 hearing today we're going to hear evidence from the first of the witnesses from rbkc

00:00:40 rbkc yes mr miller yes mr chairman good morning good morning to you good morning members of the panel i now call please mr david kerry

00:00:56 good morning mr kerry good morning i understand that we're going to affirm yes please the words are on the screen would you read them out please i dishonorably sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i

00:01:07 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much please sit down make yourself comfortable

00:01:17 [Music] right yes

00:01:20 right yes yes mr chairman thank you um mr kerry good morning to you can i start by thanking you very much for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we're very grateful to you uh during the course of your evidence if

00:01:32 uh during the course of your evidence if i can ask you please to keep your voice up so that the person who sits to your right can get down on the transcript everything you're saying in a clear way we'll say please don't nod or shake your head you have to say yes or no as the

00:01:44 head you have to say yes or no as the case may be because gestures don't come out on the transcript if during the course of my questions there's a question you don't understand or you want me to repeat or put in a different way i can do that

00:01:55 different way i can do that i should also say that we're going to be taking breaks in the normal way mid-morning and mid-afternoon but if you need a break at any other time please don't hesitate to say and we can do that we can take a break thank you now um

00:02:07 we can take a break thank you now um we've you provided two witness statements for the inquiry um they will appear as will all other documents i'm going to show you on your screen in front of you your first statement is at

00:02:21 five rbk303357 nine please if you look at the first page can you confirm that that is the first page of your first statement yes

00:02:30 yes and uh if you go please to page 26 you can see a date and a signature at the bottom of the screen

00:02:39 page 26.

00:02:59 um there's your name under the statement of truth and above the date of the 30th of october 2018 is a signature is that your signature yes thank you um can we please go to your second statement uh

00:03:11 please go to your second statement uh which is rbk3058091 [Music]

00:03:17 [Music] and can you confirm that that's your second aftermath witness statement yes and if we turn please to um page 58

00:03:25 you can see that at the top of the screen is your name under the statement of truth which i think appears on the previous page there's a signature above the date of the 11th of march 2020. can you please confirm that that is your signature yes have you read these two

00:03:37 signature yes have you read these two statements recently yes can you confirm that their contents are true yes thank you now i want to ask you first about your professional background and just this is a yes no exchange

00:03:49 this is a yes no exchange but if it's if it's not let me know um is it right that from october 2005 until you retired in september 2019 you were manager of the contingency planning

00:04:00 were manager of the contingency planning team at the royal borough of kensington and chelsea rbkc yes and i think in your statement you refer to contingency planning and emergency planning

00:04:11 planning as interchangeable terms referring to the same activity is that correct that is correct yes now is it right also that you have an extensive history of working in the field of contingency or emergency

00:04:23 in the field of contingency or emergency planning

00:04:24 planning yes oh yes yes and i think it's right that before you joined rbkc you worked at the london borough of hanslow from 1990 as the contingency officer and then later as head of contingency planning

00:04:36 later as head of contingency planning yes and i think that was until you moved to rbkc in october 2005. yes yes now in your statement you've set out that your career in emergency planning was was born out

00:04:47 in emergency planning was was born out of interest and experience rather than formal qualifications is that correct that is correct yes and is it right that over the years you've completed emergency planning courses and attended a number of seminars workshops and

00:04:59 a number of seminars workshops and exercises yes and sat on a number of regional working groups and committees over the years which you've touched on in your statement yes and i think just specifically can you

00:05:10 and i think just specifically can you confirm in particular you were a practitioner advisor to the lap the local authorities panel which forms and in june 2017 formed

00:05:21 in june 2017 formed part of the london resilience forum yes and you held that role i think until 20 september 2017 is that yes yes and were you also a member of the emergency planning society

00:05:33 emergency planning society yes and held executive posts i think within that body quite a long time ago but yes yes would it be fair to say in general that you had as at june 2017 an extensive

00:05:45 you had as at june 2017 an extensive understanding of the field of emergency planning and the framework within which rbkc operated i believe so yes yes and that would be safe at a local regional and national

00:05:57 safe at a local regional and national level

00:05:58 level local and regional some for national but certainly local and regional very well now i wonder if you could help us then with understanding the mysteries of the civil contingencies framework

00:06:10 contingencies framework um you you told us that you joined rbkc in october 2005 and that was at a significant time was it in emergency planning because the civil contingencies act 2004 had just come into force

00:06:23 act 2004 had just come into force uh yes it was actually coming into force proper in november 2005. so i arrived at the authority just before the acts requirements became

00:06:34 requirements became whatever the word is right in

00:06:37 in into effect right now it may assist everybody at this stage particularly the panel if you help us in explaining rbkc's responsibilities as a local authority under the civil contingencies

00:06:49 authority under the civil contingencies act and the supporting regulations so what i'm going to put to you is is really a set of questions confirming an eliciting understanding of how it worked now is it right that for the purposes of the civil contingencies framework a

00:07:02 the civil contingencies framework a local authority or la is a category one responder yes and in simple terms is it right that a category run responder is an organization at the heart of an emergency response which includes the

00:07:14 emergency response which includes the emergency services local authorities and nhs bodies correct yes and is it right all say that the um the civil contingencies act places a

00:07:25 um the civil contingencies act places a number of duties on category one responders yes and those included did they the duty to assess the risk of an emergency occurring yes and maintaining plans to ensure that

00:07:37 and maintaining plans to ensure that they're able to continue to perform their functions in an emergency yes and is it also right the category one responders are required to cooperate with each other in connection with the performance of

00:07:48 in connection with the performance of their cca duties yes and that that would include um a local resilience forum you would have to cooperate with a local resilience forum such as the lrf yes yes and i think in

00:08:01 such as the lrf yes yes and i think in london the the london resilience is a

00:08:05 is a a broad term is it just which would identify the civil emergency arrangements in the capital yes can we just go then to lfb

00:08:16 lfb 3061162 page seven and what i'm showing you on the screen here

00:08:21 here is the london resilience forum chart that

00:08:27 that the panel saw in the opening of this module and to the best of your understanding was this the structure or shape of the london resilience forum as at june 2017 yes it was right and you

00:08:40 at june 2017 yes it was right and you can see there in the northwest corner if you like the local authorities panel sitting alongside other panels including the voluntary sector panel the faith sector panel

00:08:51 sector panel utilities emergency services environment agency

00:08:56 agency all fed into by a number of other capabilities and boards now um if you um go please to your first statement at rbk3033579

00:09:08 page 4 paragraph 14 is a long paragraph but

00:09:16 but let me ask a question from it is it right that the council fits into the regional planning arrangements which would include the london resilience forum

00:09:24 forum yes it is

00:09:26 yes it is and i think the forum is not an entity it's not a body of its own it's a collection an umbrella collection of organizations it is yes uh and in addition to the nrf the london

00:09:37 uh and in addition to the nrf the london resilience forum there's also something called the london resilience partnership is that right yes and is that an umbrella for 170 organizations who are both category 1

00:09:49 organizations who are both category 1 and category 2 responders yes i think that's a good description right and i think it is is this right it also includes other organizations who are not classified as responders by the cca such as the

00:10:01 responders by the cca such as the military yes yes i see uh and also voluntary and faith sectors i think you are not category responders at all now um if we turn the page to page

00:10:12 all now um if we turn the page to page five of your statement first statement paragraph 15 you explain that the lrf the london resilience forum is split up into sector panels as you say in the first sentence there

00:10:24 as you say in the first sentence there and they represent the interests of different sectors and um you say in the second sentence their third line the remit of the local authorities panel lap is to essentially bring together where

00:10:36 is to essentially bring together where appropriate the 33 local authorities across london as a council it is obviously the la panel which is most relevant to our work the lap consists of six chief executives one for each of the

00:10:48 six chief executives one for each of the six sub-regional groupings of boroughs and an additional chief executive as chair of lap lap is supported by a secretariat provided by the london resilience group

00:10:59 provided by the london resilience group and by a liaison officer a emergency straight contingency planning manager from one of the 33 la's also assists as practitioner advisor i held this position until september 2017. i've

00:11:12 this position until september 2017. i've read that out in full um what was the relationship um

00:11:17 um between the nrp and the lrf the london resilience panel partnership and the london resilience forum

00:11:26 forum oh i'm slightly not sure how to answer that

00:11:31 that which sounds a bit silly i know forgive me uh so the london resilience forum it was the formal body as constituted by the legislation and that gave it responsibilities the london resilience partnership i

00:11:43 the london resilience partnership i would best describe as being that much broader collective of organizations that in one way or another would work with each other and support each other to develop plans

00:11:55 all of that supports the overarching role of the london resilience forum right now the lap as you say here was a panel comprising all 33 authorities across london

00:12:06 london whether were they also members of the lrp

00:12:10 lrp because they were category one responders i think yes i think that would be a yes right so just help me a local authority such as rbkc would be a member of the london resilience

00:12:22 be a member of the london resilience partnership but also through the lap a member of the lrf

00:12:27 lrf the london resilience forum certainly through the lap a member of the forum and the lap represented all 33 local authorities for that you'll have to forgive me passage of

00:12:38 you'll have to forgive me passage of time i'm not entirely certain that the of what the relationship with the london resilience partnership was and whether the local authorities were a part of that or whether the local authorities

00:12:50 that or whether the local authorities panel was you'll just have to forgive me i'm

00:12:53 i'm struggling to understand particularly which line goes where in terms of that wider definition of the resilience partnership either way the lrg the london resilience group was

00:13:06 the lrg the london resilience group was was this right the the administrator the secretariat supporting the the members of the london resilience forum yes right now you as you told us were practitioner

00:13:18 now you as you told us were practitioner advisor to the local authorities panel the lap

00:13:22 the lap what did that role entail so the local authorities panel had two parts to it the the formal panel that reported or or represented the

00:13:33 that reported or or represented the authorities to the london resilience forum those chief executives was the strategic

00:13:38 strategic local authorities part sitting below that was the local authorities panel implementation group that shadowed if you like with

00:13:50 that shadowed if you like with six

00:13:51 six emergency planning managers and support by the london resilience secretariat and what we did at that level and i was as the practitioner advisor i also sat on that implementation group

00:14:03 implementation group we would

00:14:04 we would look at strategic issues the panel wanted to consider and provide that professional view would this work would it not did we need resources did we think something else so

00:14:16 resources did we think something else so a practitioner view up to the strategic chief executives and my job was to be a part of that implementation group there and then when the panel met

00:14:27 and then when the panel met to sit as an advisor to that panel if called upon to ask any particular questions as a practitioner so i wasn't a member of the panel as a speaking

00:14:38 a member of the panel as a speaking voting member but i was a part of the support crew there to provide a professional opinion should that be requested but rbkc was a member of the panel

00:14:48 all 33 local authorities were part of that panel represented by their sub-regional chief executive now a sub-regional chief exec who was the sub-regional chief executive

00:15:01 who was the sub-regional chief executive so i think at the time of the fire it was elena kelly who was the chief executive at southwark before eleanor kelly it had been charlie parker the chief executive of westminster

00:15:12 chief executive of westminster before charlie parker i think it had been the chief executive of merton so over years within each sub-region there would be a number of local

00:15:23 there would be a number of local authorities one of their number would represent all of those chief executives i follow so so is this the same thing as the srrfs the sub-regional resilience forums yes i see and what role did a

00:15:36 forums yes i see and what role did a sub-regional resilience forum have within the structure as of june 2017 so as of june 2017 the sub regional resilience forum were

00:15:48 resilience forum were fairly recent i've forgotten when they started as such it was an initiative to get the

00:15:56 get the emergency planners and their managers within that area together regularly to talk about issues to support each other to look at

00:16:07 to support each other to look at trading and exercising across the sub-region sharing information and advice i see

00:16:14 i see and

00:16:15 and how did

00:16:16 how did that function differ from the lap implementation group that you've just explained

00:16:23 explained so the implementation group was very much taking its brief from the local authorities panel the local authorities panel looking at the strategic development of our emergency plans

00:16:35 development of our emergency plans might set objectives or future work programs at the implementation group we would work out how do we actually as practitioners across the 33 local authorities how do we implement the strategy that chief executives wish us

00:16:48 strategy that chief executives wish us to do

00:16:49 to do right and were the members of the implementation group drawn from the srrfs or vice versa it was an emergency planning manager one

00:17:00 it was an emergency planning manager one from each of the srfs yes right i see so the answer is yes uh and now um just to be clear if it's possible um

00:17:11 if it's possible um is this right the in in this particular case i'm sorry there's a let me back up is it right that below the sub-regional resilience forum the srrf there's there

00:17:22 resilience forum the srrf there's there was something called the borough resilience forum yes brf right and and that encompassed the particular individual local authority is that right yes so each local authority

00:17:34 that right yes so each local authority in london for the sake of argument was a borough resilience forum yes right sorry may i say each local authority was a member of the borough resilience forum

00:17:45 a member of the borough resilience forum the borough resilience forum wasn't a council body the council or the borough was a member of equally with other members of that borough resilience forum so how did this

00:17:57 borough resilience forum so how did this help me what was the relationship or difference between the brf the borough resilience forum and

00:18:05 and the sub-regional resilience forums

00:18:09 so the borough resilience forum was the local category one and some category two responders and any other organization by invitation very much looking at the localities

00:18:21 very much looking at the localities emergency plans where they spread across a number of agencies the sub-regional resilience forum and i'm just struggling to wonder whether i've tripped myself up somewhere

00:18:32 whether i've tripped myself up somewhere in the description of that because as i say they were newer

00:18:38 sorry let me start forgive me so council

00:18:42 council 33

00:18:44 33 london resilience panel and we had the six sub-regional areas so regional resilience forum you'll have to forgive me i am sorry but i'm now struggling to remember whether that was

00:18:55 struggling to remember whether that was just little authorities or whether that was a wider version of people it was a wider version so in a sense the subregion resilience forums as they had

00:19:08 become were the category one and catch the shoe responders covering that sub-region that included the six authorities the borough resilience forum was specifically a forum for the locality

00:19:21 specifically a forum for the locality for the individual borough so although some people would have sat on both there were a lot of organizations only sat on the borough resilience forum because they were more local

00:19:31 local okay i think so so is it the srrf would be a group of borough resilience forums

00:19:39 forums the borough resilience forums by 2017 and for about a year or so in advance had started reporting the outcome of their meetings the minutes of their

00:19:50 their meetings the minutes of their meetings to the sub-regional resilience forum

00:19:54 forum and i think the subregion was in its forum comes into being because it was too unwieldy for all 33 borough resilience forums to be reporting to one central london body and therefore the sub-regional

00:20:05 and therefore the sub-regional resilience forum enabled a a breakdown so therefore a better look at what the individual borough resilience forums are doing so so so just to see if we can cut through this

00:20:16 just to see if we can cut through this you have the london resilience forum you've got the six sub-regional resilience forums yes

00:20:23 yes and rbkc i think sat in the central group yes right and then underneath that you've got the borough resilience forums yes how many borough resilience forums were there per

00:20:34 borough resilience forums were there per sub-regional resilience forum as many as there were boroughs within that forum so the forums typically were six or seven boroughs so therefore the local authorities

00:20:47 so therefore the local authorities within a sub-regional resilience forum there would be the same number of borough resilience forums reporting so coming back to my point rbkc was a borough

00:20:55 borough and therefore a borough resilience forum sitting within the central group of sub-regional resilience forums yes right got that now is it right that you actually chaired

00:21:07 actually chaired brf meetings borough resilience forums between 2013 and 2016. yes yes and turning to your role then next within rbkc you cover that at paragraph nine of

00:21:18 rbkc you cover that at paragraph nine of your first statement on page three let's have that up this statement in front of us page three paragraph

00:21:25 paragraph nine

00:21:26 nine um you um explain there that the basic hierarchy and just correct me if this is wrong that you reported to stuart priestley he reported to tony redpath who was the director of strategy and

00:21:38 who was the director of strategy and local services and tony redpath in turn reported to nicholas holgate who was the chief executive and the town clerk of rbkc yes right and your role was to lead the

00:21:49 right and your role was to lead the contingency planning team yes yes can you just explain in brief what your role as contingency planning manager involved had two members of staff at that time so

00:22:00 had two members of staff at that time so i was their line manager my job was to provide the authority with an annual work program that reflected the sort of emergency planning that the

00:22:11 sort of emergency planning that the authorities should be engaged in our local plans where we fitted in with the regional plans uh training and exercises

00:22:19 exercises call out arrangements and liaising with other organizations primarily through the borough resilience forum i see and the two uh persons that you line managed were is this right they

00:22:31 line managed were is this right they were planning offices and am i right in thinking that that was rebecca blackburn and keith robbins correct emergency planning officers emergency planning officers uh and as at june 2017 who apart from you

00:22:43 and as at june 2017 who apart from you rebecca blackburn and keith robbins uh ignoring those above you in the hierarchy were part of the contingency planning team it was us three three

00:22:54 it was us three three and

00:22:55 and rebecca blackburn and keith robbins did they have other roles within the council or were they were they full time on contingency planning uh both full-time and contingency planning now i want to turn next to

00:23:07 now i want to turn next to pre-fire risk assessments and plans and start with assessment of risk um

00:23:13 um i think it's right isn't it that rbkc as a category one responder was required to maintain a borough risk register yes yes could you just explain briefly what a borough risk register is

00:23:27 so the borough risk register was to identify

00:23:32 identify risks of types of emergency that might apply

00:23:36 apply to quantify the likelihood and the severity and the impact of those risks and to note mitigation measures that organizations might have in order to

00:23:47 organizations might have in order to respond to those risks and let's go then to rbk 3036688 please

00:24:02 this is the borough risk register and you can see the date of issue at the bottom of your screen december 2016 uh issue 10 was this the relevant borough risk register as at june 2017

00:24:15 borough risk register as at june 2017 it was in partnership with the london regional risk register yes

00:24:25 regional if we go to page two we can see that it was prepared by keith robbins contingency planning officer is this right presumably under your oversight yes yes

00:24:39 and if we go to section 1.2

00:24:44 which you will see uh on

00:24:47 uh on uh

00:24:48 uh page three

00:24:52 turning to page five which is where the main part sits out profile of the run of royal borough of kensington and chelsea

00:25:01 you can see that it says who we are and it says more than one fifth of all households 16 389 of the first language that is not english this is the fourth highest

00:25:12 english this is the fourth highest proportion in the country and if you go on

00:25:18 go on a little bit below that

00:25:24 it explains that 61 of our residents have a uk passport

00:25:29 passport and there's a set of statistics set out there in the first paragraph at the head of the page

00:25:37 the page there's a more general description

00:25:43 uh which we can read for ourselves but pick up the the point in the middle it is also a borough of extremes with some of the wealthiest neighborhoods in the country as well as some of the most deprived

00:25:55 some of the most deprived statistics on deprivation show that north kensington and parts of earl's court and south chelsea face complex combinations of problems such as low incomes relatively high unemployment and

00:26:06 incomes relatively high unemployment and poor health and well-being [Applause] uh and then if we go to page nine in this document we can see a list of the borough's risks

00:26:20 and 3.1 table of risks risk one

00:26:26 risk one influenza pandemic epidemic risk two emerging infectious diseases uh

00:26:34 uh which is of of interest um but then under nine building collapse but nothing there for fire you see that

00:26:46 you see that yes does it follow that a fire in a tower block was not considered at the time this list was compiled to be a main risk

00:26:57 compiled to be a main risk for the purposes of the borough if i may provide a slight context to this particular document yes the main risk register for any london borough was dealt with

00:27:09 for any london borough was dealt with centrally by the london risk register

00:27:14 what we did as a borough resilience forum although this has got a borough council an rbkc logo and everything else we we actually worked with our colleagues in the borough risk in the borough resilience

00:27:26 borough risk in the borough resilience forum what we did with this particular documents was to say the london risk register covering all of the risks of london are there let's just draw out some of the major risks that might present the local

00:27:38 risks that might present the local agencies with more of a challenge in working together so it didn't list every single risk that possibly could be in kensington chelsea because they would have been listed within the london risk register there's

00:27:49 within the london risk register there's particular documents as they teased out what we thought as a collection of responding agencies might be the most challenging ones for us for a fire

00:28:00 for a fire because fires would have been contained within the london fire brigades response plans and everybody else's

00:28:09 there wasn't a particular fire risk in there

00:28:12 there and there certainly wasn't a tower block fire of the intensity of grenfell within there but i don't believe there was that risk in the london risk register either

00:28:23 risk in the london risk register either do you know why not given the history of tower block fires in london up to october 2015 including the adair tower fire in that month i don't know the answer to that

00:28:35 answer to that was it ever considered i don't know right how often was this risk register reviewed and updated

00:28:43 it was reviewed on a rolling basis we had four borough resilience forum meetings each calendar year and we took a proportion of the risks to

00:28:55 and we took a proportion of the risks to successive meetings so that across a year

00:28:58 year the document in total would have been reviewed so we reviewed four or five risks at one particular time and in relation to building collapse as you can see item nine

00:29:10 you can see item nine did the risk under consideration here include mass fatality mass injury mass evacuation and mass homelessness

00:29:25 mass evacuation and mass homelessness you'll have to forgive me sir i can't remember the detail of what we have listed in that in on that page when this was put together did you consult other category one responders

00:29:36 consult other category one responders such as the lfb or the metropolitan not us as a borough in that level of detail because that would have been dealt with by the london risk register and the people putting that together

00:29:48 putting that together what we did at the viral resilience forum is we had representatives of the emergency services and the nhs at that meeting from a local area so they would have been aware of and would be

00:29:59 would have been aware of and would be able to comment on if they needed to the content of this document

00:30:13 while we're looking at this page can you tell us

00:30:16 tell us what was envisaged in the expression aviation incident aviation yeah accident i'm sorry i believe

00:30:26 i believe and forgive me without looking at the page myself um i believe that would have been about the possibility of an aircraft crash uh or parts of an aircraft falling within the borough yeah

00:30:38 aircraft falling within the borough yeah all right thank you

00:30:44 and do you recall as a fact whether there were ever any discussions between rbkc on the one hand and the lfb on the other about any of these risks or any risks

00:30:55 about any of these risks or any risks which were not on this this table i'm sorry not specifically i mean we chatted both at brazilians four meetings and as we met at exercises or training

00:31:06 and as we met at exercises or training events or or other meetings um generically about matters i'm sorry your specific question about specific discussions about the risk in here i i can't recollect

00:31:19 here i i can't recollect what that might have been right

00:31:22 um let's then turn to emergency plans i think it's right that you as you say in your statement and we don't need to go to it but it was page 3 paragraph 11 of your first statement that you were responsible for

00:31:33 statement that you were responsible for drafting the council's contingency management plan or cmp yes yes uh and at the time of the fire am i right that that was issue 9 yes yes let's go to that rbk40 rbk404396

00:31:50 is that the document yes dated date of issue 30th of april 2015. yes how often was it updated it was mostly from when it was first this particular

00:32:02 from when it was first this particular type of plan was put in 2007 in most years it was updated um in one year it wasn't updated because a review of it said there was no need for an update at that particular point right in fact to

00:32:15 that particular point right in fact to be to be fair to you there is a list of publication history uh on page two and we can see in the middle of page two your name as the as the author in collaboration with denise prieto at

00:32:27 in collaboration with denise prieto at lb hf

00:32:30 lb hf and the publication history starts in 2007 and runs through 2008 9 and then skips 10 and we have 11 12 13 14 15.

00:32:42 and we have 11 12 13 14 15. um is is 2010 the year you were referring to when there was no publication uh yes i can see from the list here that um

00:32:51 um no revision was required following a review in 2009 right the list rather suggests that we then didn't revisit it until 2011. correct and and this was the addition

00:33:04 correct and and this was the addition or issue

00:33:05 or issue current was it as at june 2017 yes can you explain why there was no revision in 2016

00:33:12 2016 i don't think i can would that would have been unusual

00:33:18 most of the reviews were checking numbers details and required very little structural difference in 2015 for this particular issue we did a

00:33:31 2015 for this particular issue we did a lot of work with our colleagues at hammersmith and fulham we were anticipating the potential coming together as a combined unit and we agreed to authorities to harmonize the contingent the overarching

00:33:42 harmonize the contingent the overarching contingency management plan so therefore denise prieto and i spent a lot of time together for the issue 9 in going through the whole lot i think that was a very very substantial review

00:33:53 that was a very very substantial review of that time or check through and i suspect i can't answer you for certain i suspect that frankly the following year it just wasn't deemed necessary at that point to review that

00:34:04 necessary at that point to review that overarching document even though in fact there had been some substantial exercises at the end of 2015 uh the lessons from which might have been

00:34:12 been wisely reflected in a 2016 update i'm sorry i can't answer that right we'll come to those exercises later um i think it's right though in general

00:34:23 i think it's right though in general that like earlier issues this issue was a generic emergency plan supported by a number of annexes i think 38 in total yes yes

00:34:31 yes yes and that would include a contact directory and plans for specific situations yes yes um

00:34:40 um do you accept that this as a structure was a cumbersome suite of documents which is difficult to navigate set out over a number of annexes some of which were outdated no you don't accept that i

00:34:51 were outdated no you don't accept that i think that it was a rational way of breaking down elements of information that could be kept up to date individually and could be provided as guidance to people

00:35:03 be provided as guidance to people putting in a response it's covered in the statutory guidance to the civil contingencies act where it talks in one chapter about the formation of contingency plans and

00:35:16 contingency plans and it reflects there that one way of doing a plan might be to have a series of annexes

00:35:22 annexes so the

00:35:23 so the advantage of that is that the overarching plan that describes as required by the statutory guidance the summary of who does what in outline what

00:35:35 summary of who does what in outline what you know how what we're covering how we're going to call out how we're recognizing emergency in that overarching and public facing plan that was

00:35:44 was easier to

00:35:45 easier to put out and maintain the

00:35:49 the individual annexes very many of which contained confidential information or rapidly changing information particularly in terms of names and contacts and what have you were more easily dealt with in their discrete

00:36:00 easily dealt with in their discrete annexes

00:36:02 annexes and those which requires um to be kept confidential because of the content could do so without having the entire document confidential do you accept uh and we can go through

00:36:13 do you accept uh and we can go through the detail if you like that there were a number of

00:36:16 number of annexes which were either left blank or left in draft form or were outdated or had become superseded yes yes

00:36:27 uh now as i've shown you this is issue 9 april 2015 drafted together with denise prito of lbh and f what was the practical

00:36:39 of lbh and f what was the practical effect of the plan being a joint plan with lbhf london borough of hammersmith and fulham the plan

00:36:46 the plan reflected that we had a lot of bibora services at that point the the part of the tri borough and the baibara arrangements of the three authorities westminster city council london of harrisburg and fulham

00:36:58 council london of harrisburg and fulham and ourselves um westminster city council were very much having their own plans and a lot of their own services it was thought at the time

00:37:09 at the time managers above were were exploring and putting the two teams together as a combined team a bibura team between rpkc and lbhf

00:37:19 and lbhf so an in anticipation of that it just became a good idea at the time we thought to harmonize the overarching plan

00:37:28 plan so that in a response whether the managers were from rbkc or lb hf or were by borough managers there would be some standardization to the overall approach

00:37:40 standardization to the overall approach nonetheless was it the case that responsibility remained with rbkc yes for an emergency response within the borough yes yes uh now um it might help then having

00:37:51 uh now um it might help then having mentioned

00:37:52 mentioned to us the

00:37:54 to us the tri-borough concept um was that an agreement between rbkc london borough of hammersmith and fulham and westminster city council yes that was a political arrangement right uh and just just under this

00:38:07 right uh and just just under this political arrangement um

00:38:10 um it was contained in an agreement a document was it yes the three authorities yes um uh had a uh an agreement there was a number of tribal services

00:38:23 there was a number of tribal services but not all some boroughs had some single borough services there were some bibara services with hammersmith and fulham at one point we had a joint chief executive between hammersmith and fulham

00:38:35 executive between hammersmith and fulham and kensington and chelsea council with westminster city council retaining his own chief executive these arrangements varied from year to year as the authorities

00:38:46 year as the authorities learn to live with them adapt them right move on right drawing a number of strands from the arrangements is it right that your own department

00:38:57 department contingency planning was sovereign in other words exclusively concerned with matters within rbkc's boundaries yes yes but there were certain is this right there were certain departments such as

00:39:08 there were certain departments such as adult social care that were shared across three boroughs the three boroughs yes

00:39:14 yes and we'll see i think later in relation to the rbkc response that there were staff who would respond on behalf of our bkc but were actually employees of other boroughs but in the tribara arrangement

00:39:25 boroughs but in the tribara arrangement for example sue redmond who was from london borough of hammersmith and fulham

00:39:31 yes now on a buy borough or a tribe or a service some staff will put together in mixed service teams some might still be delivering

00:39:42 some might still be delivering single-borough services everybody at the merger retained were retained as employees of the of the authority they were at the time of the merger

00:39:53 were at the time of the merger but they might well be working for other boroughs as part of that buy borrower or tri-bar service so i see so the deployment was on a service by service basis rather than a borrowed by borough basis

00:40:05 borrowed by borough basis yes there were individual service specifications for individual borough even though there might be a buy borough or a triborough service dealing with it overall

00:40:17 right so under the contingency arrangements the particular functions both in relation to risk assessment emergency planning and

00:40:29 emergency planning and execution

00:40:31 execution were dependent on individuals who might or might not be employees

00:40:37 employees of the particular borough where the emergency took place yes i see

00:40:45 now returning back to the contingency management plan if we can turn to page 17 please we can see the section 2.3 the role of a local authority

00:40:56 the role of a local authority in an emergency and it says the role of a local authority during a major emergency may be summarized as and then there's a list of bullet points down the page

00:41:07 of bullet points down the page and the first bullet point is supporting the emergency services and other organizations involved in the immediate response and just looking at those sub-bullet points

00:41:20 sub-bullet points the fourth square bullet point down includes provision of premises for body holding centers survivor reception centers

00:41:29 centers friends and relatives reception centers brief and rest facilities for emergency services personnel so was it right that the local authorities

00:41:40 authorities one of the local authorities roles and responsibilities in the immediate response was the establishment of survivor reception centers

00:41:50 centers and

00:41:51 and friends and relatives reception centers no the responsibility for establishing those was the responsibility of the metropolitan police service the role of the authority would have

00:42:02 the role of the authority would have been that if the met police said have you got anywhere where we could hose one of these centers if we

00:42:08 if we were able to provide either our own premises or from our center premises knowledge of a somewhere work could be used we would do that but the responsibility for

00:42:20 responsibility for all of those centers in that particular paragraph were the lead responsibility was the metropolitan police service i just wonder why you say that because look looking at the text the role of the local authority

00:42:32 the role of the local authority was to support the emergency services in the immediate response including a number of things such as the clearance of debris and restoration of roadways but that wouldn't be the pro that wouldn't fall to the police would it

00:42:43 wouldn't fall to the police would it that would fall to the council indeed yes structural advice making safe for demolition of dangerous structures that wouldn't fall to the police that would fall to the council yes yes yes

00:42:54 yes yes uh and

00:42:55 uh and assistance in the evacuation of the civil civilian population similarly wouldn't necessarily fall or wouldn't solely fall to the police would it

00:43:04 an order for evacuation might fall to the police people might evacuate themselves yes

00:43:11 yes certainly but assistance in that evacuation however however started and for the provision of premises it's the provision of premises for those functions not the functions themselves

00:43:22 functions not the functions themselves the provision would you accept that the provision of premises for survival reception centers and friends of the relatives reception centers fell to the council in the same way as the other bullet points above it um

00:43:33 bullet points above it um where we could in support of the emergency services we would provide premises that we were aware of if we were asked

00:43:43 yes but just to be clear though about your evidence i just want to be clear that you accept that the role of the local authority

00:43:51 authority is is to support the emergency services by way of provision of premises for reception centers and friends and relatives reception centers yes if we were asked to do so

00:44:02 were asked to do so asked by whom by the metropolitan police service

00:44:05 service so is this right that this plan contemplated that the council wouldn't provide premises for reception centers and friends and relatives reception centers unless the

00:44:16 relatives reception centers unless the police unless and until the metropolitan police asked for it that's correct the metropolitan police service had the role of

00:44:26 of opening should they wish to do so those centers and if they did and if we were able to assist the police with premises for that then clearly at that point we would but we were not the authority that

00:44:38 would but we were not the authority that would decide to open a survivor reception center the metropolitan police were so at that point the police did and they came to us and said have you got somewhere where we could use we would

00:44:50 somewhere where we could use we would assist them with that

00:44:55 and then the next bullet point down

00:45:00 about two thirds of the way down your screen providing support services for the community and others affected by the incident

00:45:06 incident this could include first bullet provision of emergency rest centers with food and beverages beds and welfare services

00:45:14 services provision of a humanitarian assistance center which we'll come to learn later in the module is referred to as a hack or h.a.c

00:45:22 or h.a.c emergency sanitation and hygiene rehousing of those made homeless both in the short and long term and then at the last bullet point their sub bullet point establishing community assistance centers for the dissemination

00:45:34 assistance centers for the dissemination of information and support to those affected by the emergency you accept i think that that all fell to the council

00:45:44 yes now if we turn to page 11 of this document

00:45:48 document back to 11 there's a reference at 1.10 on that page there towards the foot of the screen under the heading related procedures and other documents to the national guidance emergency

00:46:00 to the national guidance emergency preparedness that's the statutory guidance

00:46:04 guidance on part one of the cca and the associated regulations now just pausing there to what extent did the national guidance documents such as

00:46:15 such as emergency preparedness as identified there influence the plans you drafted they did influence the plans i did my best to reflect the relevant elements of the guidance for our plans in terms of

00:46:27 the guidance for our plans in terms of what the plans would format as i say the overarching the the the relevant appendices to annexes to that um so so yes it's important

00:46:39 it's important just just taking a a step to the side for the moment in the questions you you drafted this and you said i did my best to reflect the relevant elements of the guidance was this document

00:46:50 of the guidance was this document peer reviewed by anybody within rbkc

00:46:54 we had the documents were aware of it i don't think anybody sat down and did a peer review on it right was any exercise ever done to compare your work on this document over the

00:47:05 your work on this document over the years and in particular with contingency management plans in other boroughs in london or other parts of the country

00:47:16 no formal process in that respect but certainly we would

00:47:21 would look at other people's plans if we were drafting a new draft we might ask others could we have a look and see what you've done the flu plan particularly we did that in 2009

00:47:34 particularly we did that in 2009 so

00:47:35 so when we went to tabletop exercises looking at elements of response that the london resilience group would run at that point of course we would get an awareness of what other authorities were doing or might be doing within that but

00:47:47 doing or might be doing within that but that was all that part of that cooperation and looking at staff there was no regulatory look at what we had done against the act or anything else was there any system or

00:47:58 or anything else was there any system or structure in place and it sounds from your answer as if there wasn't but i just want to be clear about this any system or structure in place whereby you were required to present these plans in draft to

00:48:09 in draft to an authority such as or body such as the lrg the secretariat or um the

00:48:17 or um the sub-regional resilience forum or the chief executives or anybody higher up the structure in place for london resilience so that they could say yes this passes muster

00:48:28 this passes muster or no

00:48:29 or no it's defective or inadequate in the following respects not the documents as a whole

00:48:36 a whole various parts of an authority's ability to respond were tested through the minimum standards for london which the local authorities panel administered and the london resilience group did the secretariat work for

00:48:48 secretariat work for whereby each year we were required to submit a return on our immediate response arrangements and selectively across the years on

00:49:00 and selectively across the years on various elements of of emergencies this wasn't the provision of the document it was answering a series of questions did we have this did we have that how many people did we have for this such and

00:49:11 people did we have for this such and such and we answered those questions so that examination was given by the local authorities panel yes basically and we'll come to the minimum standards for london or msl later um now um

00:49:22 london or msl later um now um if we go to page 12 we can see that there's a section dealing with resilience the london resilience partnership there on your screen and it says that it has various plans and protocols showing how

00:49:33 various plans and protocols showing how london would deal with the impact of different incidents and then if you look down there's a list long list of bullet points i think some 15 in all which are not

00:49:44 i think some 15 in all which are not actually points at all they are framework and other documents so you've got the strategic emergency plan

00:49:51 plan command and control protocol major incident manual etc etc some of which i think are familiar to to to those who followed phase one of this inquiry and if you look a little bit further

00:50:03 and if you look a little bit further down the list you have the london humanitarian assistance panel london mass casualty framework london mass fatality plan etc um

00:50:13 etc um how did those plans in that list interact with the rbkc plans which were set out in the 33 annexes that we touched on earlier so we fitted in

00:50:25 so we fitted in at the overarching point through the cmp with the principles of the major incident panel of the london emergency service education panel so that reflected our local authority

00:50:36 so that reflected our local authority liaison officer and that sort of arrangement we also ensure that the the major overarching plan uh would fit in with the london strategic emergency plan so that we had awareness and could

00:50:48 so that we had awareness and could involve with the strategic gold group strategic silver groups when they came through

00:50:53 through in terms of the other guidance documents or frameworks we had cognizance of those when we were drawing up any borough counterpart of that so for example the

00:51:05 so for example the london mass fatality plan we had a borough annex that fitted our borough part to what the mass fatality arrangements were in our instance the

00:51:16 arrangements were in our instance the mass fatality plan was written by westminster city council and that was for all of the boroughs involved in our coronal area but i had an annex which pointed toward boris staff to that

00:51:29 pointed toward boris staff to that westminster plan and was outlined what our responsibilities were for that and that we did with others the london resilience heatwave plan we had an annex for heatwave and we

00:51:41 we had an annex for heatwave and we reflected within that plan that the local authority specific elements uh particularly for our education and social care services that if we had a heat wave alert from

00:51:53 that if we had a heat wave alert from public health england there was the short cut for the authority to go to to understand particularly what it might need to do at that point right let's see

00:52:03 let's see if we go to page 15

00:52:07 under the heading of a definition of an emergency

00:52:14 which um

00:52:18 you can see there um in blue

00:52:22 in blue um

00:52:23 um the the third bullet point down is major fire you see that yes uh and the very top of the page which you can't see but if we can scroll

00:52:34 which you can't see but if we can scroll up to the top of the page um you can see in the second line a fire in a block of flats for example entailing the evacuation of residents or tenants will probably also

00:52:45 residents or tenants will probably also involve housing adult social care and children's services for emergency rest center support building control for dangerous structures advice environment leisure and resident services for clearance of debris transport and

00:52:56 clearance of debris transport and technical services for highways management and environmental health support and corporate services for a communications and public information strategy

00:53:09 what was it that led you to pick a fire in a block of flats as your example of a a major emergency which would draw in all these services

00:53:21 i can't remember it was so long ago because this would have probably certainly been reflected in earlier versions of that plan why that particular one i don't know it certainly was a incident

00:53:34 certainly was a incident which would require a wide spread of council services and my aim of that paragraph was to describe to the reader why it is we had an emergency plan why it is we might need some emergency

00:53:46 it is we might need some emergency procedures to respond to certain incidents

00:53:50 incidents and for a particular council of course not being a 24-hour response service like the emergency services are it conveyed or i believe it conveyed you know there's all sorts of services across all sorts of departments which we

00:54:02 across all sorts of departments which we need to bring together in the most unusual circumstances certainly a fire in a block of flats we had had fires and blocks of flats both when i was at kensington before grenfell and when i was at hounslow

00:54:14 and when i was at hounslow so that was something i was aware of and it

00:54:19 it as an example it gave probably a good example of the widespread number of council services

00:54:30 um now on the question of communications particularly can we go to rbk 30s 59598

00:54:39 what i'm showing you here

00:54:42 here is the witness statement of martin fitzpatrick now he i think confirmed this for me please he was head of the media and communications team in rbkc until 2017. yes can we go to page eight

00:54:53 until 2017. yes can we go to page eight at page two please paragraph eight he says

00:55:00 there this my recollection is that the council had a long standing and periodically updated emergency plan and that this plan included a communications plan this emergency communications plan was of

00:55:12 emergency communications plan was of long-standing and had been periodically revised my memory is that the plan was an appendix to the council's contingency management plan and that it was stored along with previous iterations on a shared team area on the council's

00:55:24 shared team area on the council's computer system in the team's shared folder

00:55:28 folder in fact is it right do you remember that there was no communications plan contained as an annex to the cmp i don't believe there was at that time why is that

00:55:40 i had had in preceding years a couple of conversations with martin fitzpatrick asking him about emergency communications my recollection is that his view was

00:55:52 my recollection is that his view was that his team understood the requirements set out in the london emergency services the ace and panel's major incident plan and what his team would be required to do

00:56:03 his team would be required to do and that he didn't need a formal plan i'm also aware because i've seen more recently in reviewing these matters that certainly at some point i think it was keith robbins had drafted a generic

00:56:16 keith robbins had drafted a generic outline plan and i think the intention was to try and get the departments to use that

00:56:21 use that [Music]

00:56:23 [Music] but certainly i'm not aware that martin had a written develop plan at that point i had in my recollection discussed that with him at some point

00:56:34 with him at some point and and got a complete no right

00:56:39 what do you mean you say when you say you've got a complete no do you mean that he refused to do one or he told you there wasn't one my recollection is that he told me that he didn't need one wasn't going to do

00:56:50 he didn't need one wasn't going to do one that's my recollection right

00:57:01 he his evidence and i can summarize this well actually i can show you paragraph 14 of his of his witness statement it's probably better to do that

00:57:09 that using his words rather than mine he refers to a draft a paragraph 14. if we scroll down to the foot of page two

00:57:18 two sorry yes thank you um he refers to annex six and

00:57:25 and says i'm informed that a final version of this document did not form part of the annexes to the borough's contingency management plan i do not understand why this did not happen what i can say is that while the draft 2010 communications

00:57:36 that while the draft 2010 communications plan may not have been formally annexed to the contingency plan management plan it was still adopted and adhered to by the mct then he gives an example is that correct

00:57:47 is that correct i'm certainly aware of that draft document i'm certainly aware that my colleague keith i think it was keith was was had been working on that i don't i i don't believe it was a

00:58:00 i don't i i don't believe it was a adopted document on the actual list at that point so i do believe it was still in draft

00:58:07 in draft i don't know that i can usefully say any more on that right [Applause] d do you accept arby casey's admission

00:58:18 d do you accept arby casey's admission that it's it is made in its opening remarks to this module of this phase of this inquiry that it failed to set out how different parts of the council would coordinate their communications

00:58:30 communications i am not aware of any documents that set that out very well now i wonder if you could while on this point help us clear up a confusion

00:58:41 up a confusion um can i show you rbk3028631

00:58:51 uh no th this is what looks like the first page of the generic emergency plan 30th of april 2015.

00:58:59 2015. but if we go to page five you can see the passage headed cmp yep part two tactics and contacts and it says

00:59:11 and it says this generic emergency plan is supported by a part two document giving information to assist in specific circumstances such as contact lists procedures for flooding severe weather

00:59:22 procedures for flooding severe weather environmental issues mutual aid and so on contact details include confidential telephone numbers this document is issued separately to those offices with a designated response role

00:59:34 a designated response role now um

00:59:36 now um this was the version of the cmp exhibited by nicholas holgate the then chief executive and town clerk the version that you exhibited to your

00:59:48 the version that you exhibited to your statement

00:59:49 statement let's keep this up on the screen but can we go please to rbk404396

00:59:57 page five

01:00:00 so keep both up on the same time you can see that on the left is the version i've just shown you from mr holgate's exhibits but on the right is the version of the cmp

01:00:12 on the right is the version of the cmp that you've exhibited and you can see that although the sections are the same the version that you've exhibited there is no cmp part two tactics and content

01:00:24 is no cmp part two tactics and content contacts

01:00:25 contacts section

01:00:27 section and

01:00:28 and why is that i can describe the cmp part two i cannot tell you why there is a difference i can make an assumption on

01:00:41 difference i can make an assumption on that

01:00:42 that well um

01:00:44 well um can you explain as a fact whether they were in fact as appears to be the case different versions of this plan floating about in on after april 2015.

01:00:59 if this is the document that mr holger produced i have to accept that he obviously had a different version i would say that the version without that ought to be the the published version

01:01:10 ought to be the the published version cmp part 2 tax contacts was a at that point

01:01:15 point was a draft being worked on and it wasn't finished and indeed it was later subsumed into other parts of the plan following the fire seeing part two contact contacts

01:01:27 fire seeing part two contact contacts was a part of our exercise of harmonizing our plan with london borough of hemisphere fulham who had that sort of document and having seen it we thought this might

01:01:39 and having seen it we thought this might be a good idea to produce our own version it might be of value to people activating the plan from a silver point of view

01:01:48 of view and the purpose of the document was to list um and the draft that we got to so far

01:01:55 far listed

01:01:56 listed what the impact of that might be which council departments might have a role and where particularly there were regional plans that might assist that was only in draft at that point

01:02:07 that was only in draft at that point subsequently we actually subsumed that information into the role of the resilience advisor that we developed after grenfell and into other parts of the training for council silver and it quite simply no longer had a need so

01:02:19 quite simply no longer had a need so although it was draft it disappeared out because it wasn't necessary now what i can't tell you is why nicholas holgate had

01:02:31 a version that put that in i surmise it might have been that we gave him an earlier draft before it was completed and we put it out i can't say that for certain because of course

01:02:43 that for certain because of course the

01:02:44 the bottom of the page has got the same information of the date of publication so i'm really sorry i cannot tell you why mr holgate had that version but i can tell you that the cmp part 2 was a

01:02:56 can tell you that the cmp part 2 was a concept in draft at that point which we later dropped because it wasn't going to provide the benefit that we originally thought it would was there a need in 2017 for a tactics guide

01:03:07 2017 for a tactics guide i think there probably was because at that point our whole concept in local authorities of council silver was still frankly a little bit loose it was developing

01:03:18 developing and

01:03:19 and the purpose of this cmp would have been to have given a resource to an officer in a council sort of a role and to use that as part of training we subsequently by putting in later the

01:03:31 we subsequently by putting in later the role of resilience advisor and a formal council silver and drawing up those roles properly and providing each of those roles with their own their own guidance documents

01:03:42 guidance documents it wasn't needed later on i think at that point it was a good idea which is why we were drafting it but it was still in draft at the point of the fire

01:03:52 fire um let's go to rbk405194

01:04:04 this is part two tactics issued 21st of june 2016. are you familiar with this document yes who drafted it the first draft was drafted by rebecca

01:04:17 the first draft was drafted by rebecca blackburn

01:04:18 blackburn taking the documents from hammersmith and fulham and rbk seeing it it was a draft that got a bit clumsy not from rebecca i hasten to add but because

01:04:30 from rebecca i hasten to add but because it was reflecting in too much detail by borough and triborough and single borough services and consequently i didn't think it was delivering what would be of value to to the

01:04:42 what would be of value to to the intended author um i then took over the draft and started this draft too and

01:04:50 and it looks rather different internally than that first drafted okay so you often now if we go to the index on page three

01:05:02 uh you can see the um there's the contents guide and if you go to page 34

01:05:12 this is the action guides for specific emergencies and responses and the first paragraph say the overarching arrangements for responding to and managing the council's response

01:05:23 to and managing the council's response to a major incident or emergency are outlined in the contingency management plan part one generic emergency plan this section provides a series of action guides for a number of scenarios that might occur in the

01:05:34 might occur in the borough and for which additional plans and arrangements are available to enhance the council's response you see that

01:05:41 that yes

01:05:42 yes uh now um if we go to page 37 please

01:05:53 they're all blank generic major emergency response they're all blank why are they blank we had the generic emergency response

01:06:04 we had the generic emergency response plan setting all of that out at this drafting stage i was trying to apply my mind to some of those other scenarios i would have gone back at the end and then filled in this part because if we got to

01:06:16 filled in this part because if we got to the point we were going to use the documents

01:06:18 documents then the cmp part 1 would have had more of it move into this one and out and therefore there would have been a need to quantify that at this point there wasn't a need to because we had the

01:06:30 wasn't a need to because we had the generic response and that's what the authority was used to so this is a draft and i was putting my time where i could to trying to develop other parts for specific incidents i mean was this it

01:06:41 specific incidents i mean was this it was this document put it this way as at an after june 2016 did you expect that this document would be used in the event of a major emergency had it been completed i would

01:06:52 emergency had it been completed i would have expected the emergency planning officer and the council silver to have had access to that document so that if we were dealing with an incident incident kicks off we start the

01:07:03 incident incident kicks off we start the generic response and at some point let's have a quick look at the crib sheet for this particular one all right there's a london regional resilience plan here for this i better make sure that is there anything in there that i might benefit

01:07:14 anything in there that i might benefit from so that was the the concept behind it it wasn't going to be the response plan per se it was going to be resource afterwards started the response just to

01:07:25 afterwards started the response just to give a little bit of direction to particular bits of information that might then be of help no my my question's slightly different i think i'm sorry as of the night of grenfell

01:07:36 as of the night of grenfell was this a document that you would have expected to have been reached for by your team no it was a draft it was in the fire it wasn't published so it was a work in progress and not to be used oh yes

01:07:46 yes yeah so i'm sorry i thought i misunderstood you right no but that's clear at least um if you go to page 39 however

01:07:54 however um you can see there that um there are a number of directions about mass shelter and resources in particular particularly

01:08:06 in particular particularly um

01:08:08 um what the frameworks are um and in the second bullet point under the first section the fact that rbkc may be asked to provide basic shelter and then in the next part resources

01:08:19 and then in the next part resources rbkc has a number of identified shelters and emergency rest centers available to be called upon to provide shelter and some guidance about how they're to be used and resourced and staffed

01:08:34 would you accept that this document though a draft would have been helpful for rbkc staff on the night all of that information was

01:08:46 all of that information was already in either the overarching cmp or in the relevant annexes for um evacuation and rest centers what have you so in this particular page here

01:08:58 you so in this particular page here it just

01:08:59 it just highlights if you like what is in detail in those other plans so

01:09:04 so the emergency planning team council silva certainly and others would have been aware of those substantive documents and could simply go straight to them so although this might have given somebody sitting there with a

01:09:15 given somebody sitting there with a spare five minutes let me have a look and make sure what i'm doing that obviously in any instance is a nice idea i don't think the lack of it in any way hampered the access to the information

01:09:26 hampered the access to the information that was in the very substantive plan so what was the point of this document if it was simply reflecting something that was already in the existing contingency management plan and the london plans simply because it would give a quicker hit for somebody to review their actions

01:09:38 hit for somebody to review their actions and to make sure they were covering anything and particularly for the supporting plans procedures which the emergency planning staff knew in detail but others might not know in detail it provided that link

01:09:49 not know in detail it provided that link there to show that there are these regional plans the reason we didn't proceed with the document after is that by developing the resilience advisor role an on-call emergency planner who would be there

01:10:02 emergency planner who would be there 24 7

01:10:04 24 7 immediately to support council silva would have all of that information and we'll be able to give that orally or to point to the document so this document by that time didn't have the relevance because we dealt with it in a rather

01:10:15 because we dealt with it in a rather different way now paragraph 11 of your statement first statement page three i think we've seen it already but let's have it up anyway just so that you can see what i'm asking you about

01:10:26 about um you described there how the contingency management plan sets out the triggers

01:10:31 triggers for what the council would do in an emergency

01:10:35 emergency i think i'm that that's a summary but yeah you agree if we go please then to the cmp the contingency management plan itself at rbk40439

01:10:46 and within that let's see page 38 section 5.1

01:10:53 this is entitled command control and coordination subtitle emergency management overview

01:11:02 we can see a chart and

01:11:05 and there is the chart which outlines the command control and coordination of council services during an emergency and is it right that looking at it just helping us through it you have cancelled

01:11:16 helping us through it you have cancelled gold

01:11:17 gold in the middle and is that the individual in charge of the organization and responsible for formulating strategy yes and that would be um nicholas holgate at the time with it the town clerk and

01:11:28 the time with it the town clerk and chief executive yes yes um and then um you can see to the left-hand side or immediately under underneath council gold you have borough emergency

01:11:40 council gold you have borough emergency control center or beck silver and incident response officers and to the left of that local authority liaison officer lelo at the scene and is it right the layla would

01:11:52 and is it right the layla would represent council silva at the scene yes and

01:11:56 and i've just shown you beck in the middle that's is that right the commander control of the council's response um

01:12:04 um conducted by the beck team no and i think that's one of the misnomers about borah emergency control center it does imply that there's an ex you know a control

01:12:16 you know a control i think we understand control normally means the people who are in control i've never liked that title it's a generic title across london i would much have preferred a borah emergency coordination center because

01:12:29 emergency coordination center because his role was to receive information and pass that out and to coordinate those responses

01:12:35 responses the control of the response was very much by the departments and those chief officers concerned delivering their responses

01:12:47 responses the strategy set by gold in this instance nicholas holgate with the gold team which would have been other senior managers supporting him that would have been disseminated out to

01:12:58 that would have been disseminated out to the coordination center very much receiving information from the scene from rest centers from other places passing things out to departments to say this is needed can you do this can you do the other can you let me know what you are doing

01:13:11 not that hard edge control that said we are absolutely deciding the response and we are deciding what you will do in your departments right well let's examine

01:13:22 departments right well let's examine that further if we can then in light of that answer can we go please to the next page page 39.

01:13:35 and this is roles and responsibilities summary

01:13:39 summary and it says this during an emergency council staff and resources will be used outside of their day-to-day role in order to support the response and there you see council gold strategic and the four bullet points identifying

01:13:53 and the four bullet points identifying their responsibilities and functions then you've got the scg and then you've got underneath that council silver borough emergency controller tactical and then underneath that borough

01:14:04 and then underneath that borough emergency control center back and it says the place from which the council's response to a major major emergency or business continuity disruption is coordinated and managed coordinate the

01:14:16 coordinated and managed coordinate the council's response liaising with council gold council bronze services and external agencies

01:14:24 so um

01:14:27 um is that correct yes

01:14:29 yes but

01:14:30 but but above that which i didn't read to you

01:14:33 you the council silva stroke borough emergency controller is as it says to assess the incident and activate the council's response develop the response tactical plan for

01:14:44 the response tactical plan for responding to the emergency become borough emergency controller if beck is opened supported by incident response officers and liaison council gold scg it looks from that as if

01:14:57 looks from that as if is this right the bec when opened would house

01:15:01 house the borough emergency controller at that time yes and the borough emergency controller sitting within beck would assess the incident develop the response

01:15:11 response uh

01:15:11 uh and become the the controller yes yes so within the back it's not simply a coordination exercise it does involve doesn't it an element of control

01:15:22 doesn't it an element of control as identified there by those four bullet points in whole partnership with the responding services and the managers of those

01:15:30 those well you say that uh it's it doesn't suggest that in those bullet points does it it says assess incident and activate the council's response so the decision

01:15:41 so the decision the process of asses assessment and the decision to activate would sit with silver wouldn't it sorry yes our bigger pardon in that for the act yes in identifying we've got a problem that needs this plan to be done then yes

01:15:53 needs this plan to be done then yes that's the person who would make that decision yes and similarly developing the response tactical plan for responding to the emergency would be a silver's job not not gold's job yes yes

01:16:07 now there's a reference here as you can see to incident response officers um

01:16:13 um i think they're covered aren't they in nx3

01:16:16 nx3 to the bec manual is that right yes

01:16:19 yes and we can find a full description of what they do in that document but i think it's right isn't it that um an incident response officer includes

01:16:28 includes a bec supervisor a back officer and a back information officer yes it's the staff of the bay it's the staff of the begg

01:16:35 begg and i think you you say or it says um that they can be cross-trained for emergency rest center roles and on-scene lele roles too yes

01:16:45 yes we had a number of people who volunteered for these roles who who could volunteer for various jobs and you'll see them at annex one the call out list that the names sometimes appear in under

01:16:56 names sometimes appear in under different roles i think that looking back is a great shame that because we had a shortage of volunteers there were too many people that could do other matters and therefore we didn't

01:17:08 other matters and therefore we didn't have sufficient staff discreetly in particular roles going forward the authority sought to then address that by getting people in particular roles and not cross-training

01:17:19 particular roles and not cross-training them

01:17:20 them but yes some of those people could either be in the back or could be at a rest center i think that was an inherent an inherent weakness at that time yes thank you

01:17:29 thank you mr chairman is now a convenient moment yes i think it is well as you were told mr kerry we have a break during the morning and i think this is the time to take it so we'll stop at this point we'll come back please at 25 to 12

01:17:43 we'll come back please at 25 to 12 and i have to ask you while you're out of the room please don't discuss your evidence with anyone else thank you thank you very much would you go with the usher

01:17:56 please thank you very much 25 to 12.

01:41:17 would you ask mr kerry to come back in please

01:41:30 all right mr kerry ready to carry on okay thank you very much yes yes thank you mr chairman i'd like now to turn to the topic of emergency staff capacity now as of june 2017 mr kerry did you

01:41:41 now as of june 2017 mr kerry did you consider that the council rbkc had sufficiently trained personnel who could undertake the roles within the back no

01:41:50 so you considered that it didn't no

01:41:55 no so that yes you did consider that it didn't sorry i think we did not have in my opinion sufficient trained staff for that role i think it's right as you say in your

01:42:06 i think it's right as you say in your statement that in the past or in in the previous past you had raised concerns about a significant shortfall of trained emergency management staff to the rbkc management board yes yes

01:42:18 board yes yes and and i think you set that out in a document at rbk3 rbk3058038

01:42:27 if we can go to that

01:42:30 this is a report titled emergency staff recruitment and retention dated the eighth of october 2014

01:42:38 2014 by the contingency planning manager who was you yes and if we go to page one um in the box the council has insufficient trained volunteers for major incident emergency

01:42:49 volunteers for major incident emergency management roles in the borough emergency control center support from executive directors is sought full decision so that was the point was it yes yeah and then if you go to

01:43:00 it yes yeah and then if you go to paragraph 1.2 second paragraph under purpose of report it says this there is now a significant shortfall in the numbers of trained volunteer emergency management staff required traditional recruitment methods no longer generate new volunteers

01:43:12 no longer generate new volunteers demands from the day job occur tailing attendance at required training sessions and emergency exercises support is now sought from executive directors and then if you go on to page two paragraph 3.1

01:43:26 under the requirements 3.1 borosilva it says a minimum of 10 are required this figure enables sufficient trained staff to be available at any one time allowing for annual leave meetings away

01:43:39 allowing for annual leave meetings away from the borough sick leave etc and then underneath that at 3.2 incident response officer a minimum of 20 are required this figure enables sufficient

01:43:50 required this figure enables sufficient trained staff to be available to cover two to three shifts over the first couple of days of an extended incident another 3.5 on page three if we turn the page please rbkc and h

01:44:02 if we turn the page please rbkc and h and f

01:44:04 and f uh it says have recently harmonized the roles and training of emergency management officers and harmonized core elements of our contingency management plans however there will always be a need for both authorities individually

01:44:16 need for both authorities individually to manage the response to emergencies that occur solely within their borough the borough emergency control center with an adequate number of role trained staff is a key part of our emergency management arrangements

01:44:28 management arrangements um and presumably that was how you saw it at the time yes and 4.1

01:44:36 4.1 under the current situation

01:44:40 uh it says this the past couple of years have seen a decline in numbers in each category and current trained staff numbers are borough silver times three soon to reduce to two incident response officer times ten

01:44:52 officer times ten i mean you've got little footnotes do you see three and four next to those figures and if you scroll down to the foot of page three you can see footnote three h and f currently eight times eight

01:45:02 eight h and f currently times twenty you see that yes uh

01:45:09 uh so there's the comparator uh

01:45:14 uh so just summarizing the position is this is this correct boris silva was three soon to reduce to two compared with london borough of hammersmith and fulham who who had eight

01:45:26 who who had eight but you considered ten to be the minimum required yes and so far as incident response officers um you needed 10 um or rather there were 10 which was half the number you considered was to be

01:45:37 half the number you considered was to be the necessary minimum corresponding with the 20 that lbhf had yes yes and those numbers were against the backdrop of a couple of years you say of decline yes

01:45:49 couple of years you say of decline yes yes now let's then thank you let's look at the action sheet from the meeting that um for which this was the report this is at rbk3058

01:46:00 if we go to page one

01:46:04 um there's the action sheet and you can see who was present at the meeting

01:46:10 meeting some familiar names nicholas holgate uh um

01:46:14 uh um and from other modules jonathan bohr nigel palace um is a familiar name uh and if you go then to page um uh two

01:46:26 uh two um

01:46:28 um in the second paragraph down it says nh that's nicholas holgate suggested that existing bi or triboro h f trained staff could be approached to cover our bkc as well this may fill some

01:46:40 cover our bkc as well this may fill some gaps he asked that each of the five business groups nominate one person to the silver role and that each department nominate one to the incident response role

01:46:49 role now that decision to seek to recruit each roll by five places was still wasn't it less than uh what you had suggested as the minimum requirement yes

01:47:00 suggested as the minimum requirement yes why was that

01:47:04 i mean what led nicholas holgate to go in so low

01:47:08 in so low i can't answer that because although i wrote the report and and all of this i can't actually recollect being in the meeting so i can't i don't have a recollection of the conversation that we had well it wasn't a conversation you go as an officer and the board to

01:47:20 you go as an officer and the board to discuss and you get your instructions it had been the philosophy at rbkc for as long as i was there to not have people appointed to roles

01:47:32 to not have people appointed to roles and be on rotors and certainly not to pay them to be on standby but to seek volunteers for these roles there are other reports i have done in past years one or two reports over the

01:47:43 past years one or two reports over the years expressing the same concerns and considerations um i think at this time i was actually asking for consideration about nominating individuals making it part of

01:47:56 nominating individuals making it part of their job to get the numbers up but that was not how rbkc was doing it and to be fair that wasn't how most councils did it most councils relied on volunteers as well

01:48:08 relied on volunteers as well it wasn't working and i said so but that was the decision sorry sorry bigger problem yeah would you say it wasn't working we weren't getting the experiences we were not getting the numbers it was you

01:48:20 were not getting the numbers it was you know keith and and rebecca would go out to the departments and speak to people people were not volunteering for it there were reasons for that i think um everybody's very busy

01:48:31 everybody's very busy local authorities are lean machines these days and and if they're if it isn't a part of a core role which in within which somebody gets their time to go on the training and go on the exercises and be there

01:48:43 on the exercises and be there and if people are not on a rota then we don't get the volunteers which is why i went to the board to say we have got a shortfall this is not enough the reasons why i said 10 and 20 for the

01:48:56 the reasons why i said 10 and 20 for the respective roles was to have sufficient people so that when you phone down the list

01:49:03 list in the evening or at the weekend and you get voicemail voicemail voicemail that there would be enough people answering the first call to get the first shift in that's why we needed the numbers um and

01:49:16 that's why we needed the numbers um and that was my best guesstimate of the sort of numbers to give you the the the likelihood of getting sufficient people on the first call it wasn't the case then

01:49:27 it wasn't the case then even after grenfell it took a while to get that sorted because it was still volunteers we didn't have enough we had an incident one saturday where we only just got away with it and

01:49:40 where we only just got away with it and i put in a report then and very bluntly said we were at risk of failure and i very bluntly said we needed to do something and at that point the board coughed up put some money to it and the authority by the time i left

01:49:52 it and the authority by the time i left was starting to get people in positions on routers with a fee for that that was making a change but rbkc right from when i got there nobody on a rotor nobody paid for it get

01:50:05 nobody on a rotor nobody paid for it get volunteers executive directors go and nominate people they all say yes nothing comes through

01:50:15 all i can do is put a report in you know and i did so we didn't have enough people the reliance there on trying by borough staff

01:50:25 staff only okay to afar okay some mutual aid we did have mutual aid from those authorities in of course with grenfell but if you're going to ask for people under mutual aid i think you also have enough people to also give under mutual

01:50:36 enough people to also give under mutual aid yourself you know you can't sit there and say we're not going to do something because somebody else could be asked

01:50:42 asked in extremis as as grenfell certainly was even if we'd had all of those people we would still have needed after a day or so mutual aid but that would have been fine what we didn't have was sufficient

01:50:54 fine what we didn't have was sufficient staff to start with

01:50:57 in that last answer you identified an incident one saturday where you say we only just got away with it when was that incident and what was that incident i can't remember i think it would have

01:51:08 i can't remember i think it would have been in 2018 it was an incident in our block of flats down in the world's end estate in chelsea it was a saturday morning there'd been a fire in the

01:51:19 morning there'd been a fire in the electrical sub room which cut off the water supply and the electricity supply to those flats and housing were told it could be 10 or more hours before that supply was put back

01:51:31 hours before that supply was put back lack of electricity was one thing the lack of water of course was another so we responded lelo we had a beck council silver at that time was involved

01:51:43 that time was involved but

01:51:44 but phoning down the list of volunteers to get the newly trained people on the list of volunteers phoning down trying to get enough people for a minimal back on a saturday morning they just got answer

01:51:55 saturday morning they just got answer phone after answer phone after answer phone it was saturday you know people are out doing stuff as it happened although we'd set up a rest center although we had people out knocking on doors we had communications and other

01:52:07 doors we had communications and other things going the need for support for people was so small that it didn't become a problem and by

01:52:15 and by the mid-evening we were able to scale all of that down but i wrote a report then to the management board that said very explicitly we came very close to failure

01:52:26 explicitly we came very close to failure and would likely fail on a future occasion and at that point and we were post-grantful of course finally the new management board bit the bullet thank you now in brief i think it's

01:52:38 thank you now in brief i think it's right isn't it that the issue the problem

01:52:41 problem of lack of staff in in in um emergency response arose in 2016. you you raised that again with nicholas holgate in that year january of that year certainly i know i had raised it at

01:52:52 year certainly i know i had raised it at some point in the past yes and

01:52:56 and uh we can read the emails from january 2016 themselves but was the position that the overall numbers continued um after um this time to decline

01:53:09 um after um this time to decline um i think it probably didn't decline any more than it was i can't remember now the precise details and i know in my statements you've got at various points the numbers that were there

01:53:20 the numbers that were there i think we were pretty much at rock bottom at that point and i don't think it's substantially improved right we have the numbers indeed page 11 of your second statement paragraph 5.2.4 onwards for those who

01:53:31 paragraph 5.2.4 onwards for those who want to see that but just summarizing it is it right that as of june 2017 there remained a significant shortfall in the number of available council silvers in my professional opinion yes

01:53:42 my professional opinion yes and and uh i think it's right that by june 2017 there were only three trained council silvers you stuart priestley and tony redpath yes so not even the 10

01:53:53 tony redpath yes so not even the 10 recommended back in late 2014. no no

01:53:59 [Applause] um let's send then to a slightly different topic which is training in relation to emergency or contingency planning did you understand that the council rbkc as a category 1 responder

01:54:11 council rbkc as a category 1 responder were under a legal duty to carry out exercises and training for the purposes of ensuring that its contingency plans were effective yes let's go to the cmp again please

01:54:22 let's go to the cmp again please rbk404396

01:54:28 and go to page 11 section 1.8

01:54:36 heading training and exercising

01:54:39 and it says this contingency management plan shall be exercised at least once annually the exercise shall test and validate the activation of the plan the operation of the borough emergency control centers back

01:54:50 control centers back the lists the links between the becks and council services and then it says training shall be offered in each year for staff with designated emergency response roles and

01:55:01 designated emergency response roles and shall take the form of specific training sessions seminars and talks and workshops

01:55:07 workshops the boroughs will participate in the regionally organized exercises for london local authority gold and the london local authority coordination center arrangements now were these new training

01:55:19 arrangements now were these new training requirements or goals in this edition the april

01:55:22 the april 2015 edition of the contingency management plan um original were they new or were they carried across from earlier editions um i would have to look at the other

01:55:33 um i would have to look at the other editions but i suspect it was broadly similar language across them

01:55:40 and when did the requirement for annual training start um it wasn't an imposed annual uh sorry an imposed condition it's something that just seemed to be good practice or or a

01:55:53 just seemed to be good practice or or a good idea to say that we ought to do it at least annually um i can't recall ever having that prescribed to me for that

01:56:01 for that but given that we were doing um annual exercises with exercise safer city and sometimes more it seems to be a sensible thing to say i believe the

01:56:12 sensible thing to say i believe the authority these days are now doing two exercises a year and as of june 2017 were you satisfied that these plans were being exercised annually in accordance with what's said here

01:56:24 no not fully i we were doing um some exercises we were doing some training but if i look back

01:56:33 back i do not believe as an authority we did sufficient right now you say looking back at the time were you aware uh

01:56:41 uh of your own dissatisfaction that the plans were being exercised properly in accordance with the plan

01:56:49 no i think at the time i was aware that we were not training people sufficiently for that i think the plan was being exercised um either through exercise safer city or

01:57:01 um either through exercise safer city or exercise connects but that isn't the same of course as a very in-depth full exercise of everybody that could possibly be involved so i was aware that we were not achieving that and what did you do about that what did you do about

01:57:13 you do about that what did you do about the fact that at the time as you knew you weren't training people sufficiently

01:57:19 i don't think i did anything specific this was wrapped up in the discussions about we haven't got enough staff and if you haven't got enough staff you can't do very much training and if you haven't got enough trained staff you can't

01:57:30 got enough trained staff you can't really do much exercising but that's sort of

01:57:32 sort of chatting around i don't have anything in writing for you that says that i see but were you confident at the time that those

01:57:40 those seniors and those decision makers within the council to whom were you you were making your complaints about understaffing understood that that affected adversely the ability to carry out training in accordance with

01:57:52 to carry out training in accordance with the cmp

01:57:54 the cmp i don't know

01:57:58 i mean they were aware of what training we were doing

01:58:04 i'm sorry i don't know i don't know that if i don't think i can answer your question

01:58:09 question did you ever tell them look uh we're understaffed and not only are we under staff we're not being we're not able to train people properly in accordance with what our our own contingency management plan requires

01:58:20 plan requires i can't recall if i specifically said that i'd like to think that that was a part of the conversation but at this remove i can't recollect particular conversations

01:58:31 particular conversations now is it right that staff with designated emergency response roles are those with council gold council silver and beck staff positions yes yes and and um there's a reference

01:58:44 yes yes and and um there's a reference to the the council gold group who is the council gold group that would be the chief executive the executive directors of the core

01:58:56 the executive directors of the core departments and one or two other particular professionals that would bring a resource for example legal and finance and human resources so is this

01:59:07 so is this so the strategic managers plus some professional advisors right now let's go to your first statement then please page eight paragraph 26

01:59:23 you say there regarding training within the council the council gold group training consists of sessions with the chief executive executive directors and a number of departmental directors the date of the

01:59:35 departmental directors the date of the last gold group training prior to june 2017 on strategic command and control and recovery was 14th september 2015 and it consisted of a table talk discussion

01:59:46 it consisted of a table talk discussion around a fictional scenario chalk and talk and feedback so

01:59:54 so it goes without saying i think but obviously correct me if i'm wrong about this that the last training session for gold on strategic command and control and recovery was some 21 months before the grenfell tower

02:00:06 some 21 months before the grenfell tower fire yes yes what format did that training take it says table talk discussion around a fictional scenario but have you got any and can you recall any further detail

02:00:17 any further detail so it was a two hour session i had asked for four hours i was originally offered a slot at a jm's at a joint management team meeting i think nicholas eventually compromised on two hours

02:00:29 on two hours it was in two parts the first part of response the second part on recovery so it started with a powerpoint presentation on response which outlines the key

02:00:40 on response which outlines the key elements of response from the cmp we then gave them a scenario and then in tables mixed tables of people for them to discuss what the responses at a gold

02:00:51 to discuss what the responses at a gold level would be what might inform the strategy then after a break exactly the same but for the recovery so a powerpoint presentation about the core elements of recovery uh table top discussion then amongst

02:01:03 uh table top discussion then amongst those groups about what the strategy might be for recovery to that particular scenario and then open plenary feedback and and people reporting back on that and what documents were available did

02:01:14 and what documents were available did you have the cmp did you have the annexes did you have the guidance what did you have oh gosh i can't remember they certainly would have had access to the cmp certainly they would have had on their tables the

02:01:26 their tables the from the cmp the two first meeting agenda

02:01:30 agenda first meeting agenda for a gold group in response and then the first meeting agenda for the recovery group those are two pages within this cmp those were printed off and available for them they

02:01:41 printed off and available for them they wouldn't have had all of the annexes no but they did have the emergency planning staff there too to to advise or ask questions and those agendas i think we've seen we may see later were standard form was set within the cmp yes

02:01:53 standard form was set within the cmp yes now um

02:01:57 well

02:02:00 do you consider generally the gold group training provided sufficient training in accordance with what we've read at paragraph 1.8 of the contingency management plan it certainly gave

02:02:13 a good outline of what the roles of the gold people were and the sorts of issues they would be discussing and a chat about that

02:02:24 discussing and a chat about that i would have liked more time because had i had more time we could have gone into more detail and looked at more elements and perhaps touched upon some of those regional issues more within the time scale that we had

02:02:36 scale that we had i do believe that it gave everybody there an understanding of what their strategic role was as opposed to the tactical role of others do you remember within the training whether there was

02:02:48 within the training whether there was any education given to council gold about what criteria should be taken into account when deciding to go out and ask for mutual aid from other boroughs or invoking

02:03:00 aid from other boroughs or invoking that's the same thing london local authority gold i don't recall that level of detail

02:03:07 of detail it may be that we talked about mutual aid but if we did it would have been as a concept right but you certainly wasn't a core part of the course why not

02:03:19 i don't know at this point but i did have only two hours right and that sounds as if that answer that you didn't regard that as sufficient it was a

02:03:30 regard that as sufficient it was a compromise oh it wasn't sufficient um i knew it wasn't sufficient i'd asked for a four hour slot um

02:03:37 um i was first told that um couldn't i do it in the joint management team meeting like a briefing no we need to do this as training i was compromised i was given two hours

02:03:50 i was given two hours at the end of that training as mr holgate left he just said to me next time you need longer was he the one who originally resisted giving you longer yes

02:04:06 what did you say to him when he said to you next time you need longer i didn't say anything there's a limit to what a junior officer can say out there to a chief executive

02:04:17 um now um i've shown you that the contingency management plan requires training for gold each year

02:04:26 each year um could you explain why the training for the council gold group was not undertaken annually at least after 2014. i can't answer that

02:04:38 i can't answer that i can't no i don't know why we didn't plan on for 2015. that first 2016. i'm sorry how supportive did you consider senior management to have been

02:04:49 management to have been in relation to training and exercising not supportive there was resistance for senior managers attending some of the training

02:04:58 training uh we've had that resistance in the past for this particular training in 2015 i did ask and nicholas readily agreed that

02:05:06 that we could put out the email to all of the for needing a three-line whip is because everybody's very busy and you know everybody not everybody

02:05:17 and you know everybody not everybody attends everything and we needed a good attendance so so nicholas in the email that went out from his secretary i drafted it for him but it it very strongly told people that

02:05:28 but it it very strongly told people that they needed to come having said that i did have immediately an email from one of the executive directors not with us by the time of grenfell querying why she needed to attend because she had done some

02:05:39 attend because she had done some training at another authority um so that just gives you this sort of instance the um the issues of attempting to to deliver this sort of training

02:05:54 did you form a view at the time about how

02:06:00 about how seriously senior management including the chief executive took contingency planning

02:06:10 i do believe that nicholas did take it seriously in that when he became joint chief executive uh he actually called in my colleague at

02:06:22 uh he actually called in my colleague at hammersmith and fulham and myself to give him a briefing and he said very openly there he said you know i'm not from the typical local authority background you will have to understand i don't have that operational bit you will

02:06:33 don't have that operational bit you will need to help me so we gave him that initial briefing we later on gave him a written briefing specifically about flooding because there was a potential for a breach of

02:06:44 there was a potential for a breach of the thames wall at one point in hammersmith which could have had certain effects so so we were doing a lot of planning around that so we gave him some written stuff about that i know that nicholas had had

02:06:55 i know that nicholas had had guidance

02:06:57 guidance from the london resilience group about the role of london local authority gold before he went on to that rotor

02:07:06 so i i do believe he he took the issue seriously as an individual i don't doubt that and and

02:07:15 and and although i've said what i've said i did feel supported at times on talking about matters with nicholas and things like that i i never got a sense that he was being standoffish about that

02:07:26 being standoffish about that the other reality though was that you know just getting people to go to training generally was becoming an issue getting people to volunteer for roles as i've demonstrated was an issue

02:07:38 i've demonstrated was an issue um

02:07:40 um it is a fact that in most local authorities and certainly in rbkc it is actually quite rare for a gold group to be formed in response to an

02:07:51 group to be formed in response to an incident in a borough because in most cases incidents are

02:07:56 are in impact small enough to be dealt with by a silver and one or two people in the back and liaison officer that i have been our experience when we had had incidents including some fires before

02:08:08 incidents including some fires before there might be a call to the chief executive to brief them and to let them know but it was very very rare for for gold groups to meet what have you now i'm not excusing anybody it's not for me

02:08:19 i'm not excusing anybody it's not for me to put excuses up but i think the culture was that you know a management board deal with issues every day of the week and if they come together in a gold group their job is to do what they do as a senior management

02:08:31 do what they do as a senior management board but in a concentrated area um clearly as it was demonstrated that isn't a sufficient attitude and um you know much better goals training

02:08:43 know much better goals training was

02:08:44 was necessary we hadn't provided it thank you now let's then turn from gold to silver

02:08:51 to silver um

02:08:52 um if um if we are if we think about the council's silver rule for a moment was there any formal training program for that role

02:08:59 that role at that time no not a formal training program so how did council silvers receive their training as as required under the plan

02:09:10 training as as required under the plan so that was a mixture of individual briefings and attendance exercises and attendance at some some other training events but it wasn't a formal silver program why not

02:09:24 silver was

02:09:27 a concept that we were coming to at that point so we were in a transition generally across london in in that role of management in an emergency

02:09:38 of management in an emergency you've seen the expression in our plan borough controller or emergency controller in common usage where a senior manager would effectively

02:09:50 a senior manager would effectively be in the back who are managing that and that wasn't particularly a council's silver role as we would now determine it's the tactical coordinator

02:10:01 coordinator we were moving into that terminology partly because hammersmith and fulham used it so part of our harmonization was to to call that role uh that developing role silver and certainly out of exercise unified

02:10:13 and certainly out of exercise unified response the year before in 2016 where we really examines the whole emergency management bit operationally it came out of there that we needed to

02:10:25 it came out of there that we needed to say to london london local authorities need to recognize there is now a role of council silver which is not managing the beck the beck merely becomes a tool for them

02:10:37 the beck merely becomes a tool for them and the work that we were working on at that point across london which got published in 2018 brought these roles out the role

02:10:49 brought these roles out the role specifically from the back guidance documents training uh specifically for that role now um how regular did how regularly did

02:11:00 now um how regular did how regularly did silva get trained oh not regularly in terms of training it would have been from the ability to go ahead and exercise from time to time or tabletop from time to time

02:11:10 to time and who delivered the training um sometimes that would be rebecca or keith or me sometimes that might be a london resilience tabletop exercise sometimes

02:11:21 resilience tabletop exercise sometimes it might be the annual safer city exercise which was delivered centrally across all 33 boroughs and was it assessed was the training ever assessed by no right

02:11:32 by no right was it in your view at the time sufficient to enable silvers to perform their duties in the manner in which we delivered our emergency management response at that time

02:11:44 time it didn't seem inappropriate at that time

02:11:48 time subsequently with properly put defining the roles

02:11:53 the roles we developed across london and i delivered in kensington and chelsea for our new silver's post-fire formal silver training to a standard that had been sent by

02:12:05 to a standard that had been sent by london and to you know so that everybody across london was getting the same training as a council silver and the support documentation to go with that what triggered the change after grenfell then in terms of the training delivered

02:12:17 then in terms of the training delivered to silvers partly the experience of grenfell but primarily it was the drive that had started in the aftermath of exercise unified response

02:12:29 unified response because exercise unified response um we very deliberately as local authorities targeted within that exercise uh a look

02:12:40 targeted within that exercise uh a look at buried emergency control centers and what became the silver role because we were aware as professionals that we had for you know local authorities weren't getting to grips with that we used that

02:12:52 getting to grips with that we used that exercise we published our results the local authorities panel and then we started a work stream to examine and identify good practice so that we could then bring those roles in

02:13:04 that we could then bring those roles in that work was in progress at the time of grown full fire following the fire london local authorities put in extra money to employ some people to fast-track the work that we had started

02:13:17 we had started so my revised bori emergency plan and borrow emergency control center manual in august 2017

02:13:28 in august 2017 took in the lessons as far as we could from our experience in the fire and what we had developed so far from the post unified response bits and we republi we published those and i did training at

02:13:39 published those and i did training at that point that form for the the that beck manual in turn

02:13:45 in turn informed the final product out of unified response and a year later we had got a new iteration of the bec management manual uh the standardized one and we had the training for that

02:13:57 one and we had the training for that which i had in a part of devising where we had for each local authority the same training package and i delivered that training for us council silvers and our bank managers and our best staff before i

02:14:09 managers and our best staff before i left in 2019 before the fire what was the nature of the training provided to the beck staff the back staff training was delivered originally by keith robbins and more

02:14:20 originally by keith robbins and more latterly by rebecca blackburn it was from memory because i didn't do it but from memory it was using the back manual of the time very much as the working document it

02:14:32 very much as the working document it would start off by taking people literally in through the door and how you open the back literally how where's the light switch where's this well how do you actually get this

02:14:42 get this this this this this room into being and then they would be taken through the roles of the of the various roles of the inner back um that would be the the direct teaching

02:14:53 um that would be the the direct teaching of it and then that would be reinforced later on by inviting people to take part in exercises and how regular was the training provided to beckstarf before june 2017. before june 2017 it was as

02:15:06 june 2017. before june 2017 it was as and when there were staff to be trained ad hoc it was ad hoc if we got some volunteers in then a training course would be arranged

02:15:17 training course would be arranged now

02:15:19 now i want to ask you about rest center managers

02:15:24 how did the crisis support team fit in if at all into an emergency response and the running of a rest center

02:15:32 so the crisis response team

02:15:37 which was a team which was in existence when i arrived at the borough

02:15:43 borough not part of emergency planning but part of

02:15:46 of what today would call out at social care although we drew people from across the authority

02:15:50 authority that was a team that came together i think following the um 911 experiences and then the 20th of july 2005 experiences and it was primarily there to give

02:16:03 and it was primarily there to give emotional

02:16:04 emotional support to people who might be badly affected this is the public by such an incident when they were in a survival reception center or somewhere like that

02:16:15 reception center or somewhere like that they later on agreed that actually yes they would have a role that we could call upon them for emergency rest centres generally and provide that role within it and in relation to the specific role of a rest centre manager

02:16:26 specific role of a rest centre manager how many qualified staff did rbkc have as at june 2017 to carry out that role one who was that i can't recall the name but it is in the annex cp hcmp1 right

02:16:38 but it is in the annex cp hcmp1 right and was that enough no

02:16:40 no and was it the case that rbkc was in essence completely reliant on the brc the british red cross or other london boroughs to staff a rest center

02:16:51 london boroughs to staff a rest center we very much had taken the decision earlier and with chief executive not nicholas the previous chief executive agreement that we would work use the british red cross service for our rest center staff

02:17:03 service for our rest center staff that was a service they offered we had a memorandum of understanding about that um a few other authorities by this time were also using british red cross in that staffing way

02:17:14 that staffing way our view in doing so was that here was a body of people who were trained uniformed dbs checked and had a call out system to get a team of volunteers

02:17:26 system to get a team of volunteers forward it seemed to us to be the safer way to actually get the right people in the right time to a rest center i caveat that

02:17:35 that with the sort of rest center experience we all had of course was nowhere near the scale of the grenfell fire and the resource that we had identified

02:17:47 and the resource that we had identified and agreed for i think would have been suitable for most other incidents that we were familiar with at that time right and

02:17:59 you refer to the memorandum of understanding um

02:18:03 um with the british red cross just for our reference purposes that's at rbk3058064

02:18:12 um that was you'll remember dated september um or ran from september 2015 to september 2016 but it expired by the time of the grenfell tower fire is that

02:18:23 grenfell tower fire is that it seems to have done so um that's an administrative error it should have been a new one should have been put in um but i

02:18:31 um but i can say quite clearly that that did not make any difference to the responsible british red cross the memorandum of understanding was something that boroughs were invited

02:18:42 was something that boroughs were invited to contribute to because that was a way of channeling some funding to them and returned from which they could do some training but it wasn't a requirement for of a local authority in order to get

02:18:53 of a local authority in order to get british red cross support right subsequently after the fire local authorities panel then got london to get a london wide mou which is red cross rather than relying

02:19:05 which is red cross rather than relying on the individual boroughs right so before the fire was it the position that the mou would be commonly used between boroughs and the brc but but not universally it was certainly not

02:19:16 universally it was certainly not universally some local authorities in london had taken doing the mou quite a number of others were not did you understand at the time or have any thoughts at the time about whether using the brc in that way was a derogation of

02:19:27 the brc in that way was a derogation of the responsibilities and duties that rbkc had as a category 1 responder and as a local authority in relation to the setting up and management of a rest center no why is that

02:19:39 center no why is that it was identifying a resource for that function the local authority has a lot of jobs dealt with by in-house staff and an awful lot of things dealt with by contractors and others this was

02:19:50 with by contractors and others this was simply where is the resource that is going to be available

02:19:55 available that was a resource as i say trained for the role with all of the equipment for the role and with the ability to call people out and deliver it at that time that seems to me to be a good way of

02:20:07 that seems to me to be a good way of discharging our our responsibility right let me see if i can put this to rest as it were go to rbk three zeros one nine

02:20:18 i'll show you the first page of this document this is the humanitarian assistance framework under the nrp um and

02:20:26 um and if we look at the bottom right hand side it says april 2017. so this was the current version i think as at the date of the grenfell tower fire um and um if we go to paragraph 8.15

02:20:39 we go to paragraph 8.15 which we will find on page 24

02:20:47 um sorry back page 23 page 23. sorry i'm so sorry page 24. i was right first time 815. the responsibility it says for the

02:20:58 815. the responsibility it says for the set up and running of rest centers lies with the local authority supported by voluntary agencies who would activate arrangements as outlined in their rest center plan the decision to set up a rest centre will be made by the local authority often at the request of the

02:21:10 authority often at the request of the police

02:21:11 police or i should say fire brigade so does does that ex does that set out the the basic arrangement so that local authorities could discharge their responsibility for establishing an operating arrest center

02:21:24 establishing an operating arrest center by leaning on voluntary agencies such as the brc

02:21:29 the brc i don't think it takes away the responsibility of the local authority to be responsible for it but certainly i believe it enables the local authority to to seek the resource from wherever it might be appropriate so an outsourced resource

02:21:41 appropriate so an outsourced resource effectively but the responsibility responsibility is still with the local authority

02:21:46 authority right

02:21:49 uh and would that mean that the local authority would have to exercise monitoring and supervision roles

02:21:58 roles over the

02:21:59 over the brcs or other voluntary sectors activities in setting up and running rest centers yes my understanding is that the british red cross would put their staff in but

02:22:10 red cross would put their staff in but there would still be a need for a senior manager from the local authority to attend and represent the local authority and be responsible for the local authority physically present i believe so yes right

02:22:21 so yes right uh now um can i then turn to a slightly different topic which is pan london um uh

02:22:26 um uh if we go to your first statement please page 10 paragraph 37 you say

02:22:32 you say there that in addition to i'm sorry i'm so sorry we'll wait till it comes up under the heading pan london training you say in addition to the training that would take place within the council for council gold beck staff and the lelo's

02:22:44 council gold beck staff and the lelo's as well as training for my emergency planning team there were a number of external training exercises which rbkc took part in those in the years preceding the fire are detailed below

02:22:55 is it right that the london the london authorities panel the lap had specific annual training for local authorities run by the lrg the london resilience group yes yes

02:23:08 resilience group yes yes now let's just look at one or two of those was one such the exercise connect training exercise that you've referred to yes that was annual yes and was it

02:23:19 to yes that was annual yes and was it right that rbkc participated every year yes up to june 2017. and was the goal to test communications between the beck and the llac the london local authority

02:23:30 and the llac the london local authority communication center yes and using the words in your statement is it fair to describe that exercise as a communications validation test rather than a training opportunity yes yes and

02:23:41 than a training opportunity yes yes and that was presumably is this right to ensure that the communication systems were working in accordance with the minimum standards for london yes and those standards were laid down by the lap yes yes

02:23:52 the lap yes yes now let's look at exercise um safer city then as the next one you cover that in your statement of paragraph 39 on page 11. if we can just go to that please

02:24:07 11. if we can just go to that please um you say there is also an annual exercise called exercise safer city which primarily exercises london la gold and the llac see

02:24:17 see the exercise was held on 21st of october 2015 again on 9th of february 2017 and most recently on 13th and 14th march 2018 it is up to each la as to how

02:24:29 2018 it is up to each la as to how involved they become the council runs its beck for several hours and the la gold tests their ability to coordinate becks and receive situational reports

02:24:40 becks and receive situational reports uh

02:24:41 uh now uh

02:24:43 now uh local london local authority gold is a term i think we haven't yet come across in your evidence could you explain as briefly as you can please what that was a rotor

02:24:55 a rotor of all well of most london local authorities chief executives on a router to be london local authority gold that if there was an incident which either an individual local authority was

02:25:08 either an individual local authority was starting to need some support for or if there was an incident affecting london particularly at which london local authorities would need to be represented at the london strategic coordinating group

02:25:19 group a one local authority chief executive would be able to do that and to represent all 33. and is it right that before the granville tower fire in june 2017

02:25:31 2017 exercise safer city was held on those two dates but the last one being the 9th of february 2017. yes and is it the case that rbkc didn't in fact participate in the exercise on the

02:25:44 fact participate in the exercise on the 21st of october 2015 because it wasn't relevant to our bkc because

02:25:49 because it was about fluvial flooding we didn't

02:25:55 we didn't sorry

02:25:57 sorry the x yeah so the scenario didn't have any reality for the people in rbkc

02:26:04 in rbkc now my memory slightly going here can i ask you is this the exercise in 2015 where we ran our own exercise within exercise safer city

02:26:16 exercise safer city uh

02:26:17 uh uh i believe it is yeah so what we did on something was say within hesitating so so so on on forever so come to it the exercise was held exercise for city

02:26:28 exercise was held exercise for city elements core elements of that were there at one point the the the lack the london local authorities coordination center would send out a request for a situation report and another point a request for us to put in

02:26:39 another point a request for us to put in on on a format and mutual aid request outside of that there were a number of injects as we call it events developing and happening which individual local authority becks

02:26:51 which individual local authority becks would manage because the scenario fluvial flooding wouldn't work we developed our own scenario and our own set of injects we started the

02:27:03 own set of injects we started the exercise at the same time as safer city we

02:27:07 we through the emergency planning staff did the few elements of linkage on communications with the lac but we ran a back exercise on the on our own scenario so it was a borough emergency exercise

02:27:19 so it was a borough emergency exercise now in that connection let me just take a sideways step for a moment uh it sounds as if what you did was to look at the london wide exercise decide it wasn't appropriate for your borough and do a

02:27:31 appropriate for your borough and do a substitute exercise instead that was yes right um

02:27:35 right um looking back at some of the questions before the break that you answered about risk assessment um when you created your risk register

02:27:47 created your risk register for

02:27:48 for rbkc did you do it from scratch or did you use as your starting point the community risk register the london wide risk register i believe i think

02:27:59 i think we use the community risk register for london and took from that the

02:28:05 the key

02:28:06 key ones that we thought might impact on the borough as it might affect the other colleagues in the boroughs in its forum so if there wasn't if there was a risk which wasn't listed on the community risk register the london wide risk

02:28:18 risk register the london wide risk register

02:28:19 register it wouldn't make its way onto the rbkc risk register is that right i wouldn't have thought so no right um now you i'm going to come to um the

02:28:30 um now you i'm going to come to um the exercise

02:28:32 exercise responder which you mentioned a moment ago in a moment um is it right that

02:28:38 that rbkc didn't participate in the exercise safe for city exercise on the 9th of february 2017.

02:28:49 no i think that's the wrong way to look at it

02:28:51 at it we ran our own exercise scenario within it but we contributed to the london exercise by contributing the relevant parts of that exercise which were to to provide a specified time a situation

02:29:03 provide a specified time a situation report and another time in mutual aid report so the elements of safer city for the lac the london local authorities coordination center was about them receiving 33 sick reps and their process

02:29:16 receiving 33 sick reps and their process of assimilating that into a gold report and then later on assimilating a bunch of mutual aid requests that was the exercise for them as part of safer city the the exercise for the borrower was

02:29:28 the the exercise for the borrower was either using the scenario and the injects from that from the center or

02:29:34 or with agreement and i did have agreement to this in advance um of actually running our own scenario at the same time that gave better value

02:29:45 at the same time that gave better value in the training aspect for our exercise whilst at the same time still giving the central exercise what it needed to be successful there yes i understand the relationship my question was about the

02:29:57 relationship my question was about the date we've come we're going to come to the 21st of october 2015 specific rbkc exercise in a moment my question was about the one done on in february 2017

02:30:09 february 2017 did rbkc participate in exercise safer city held on the 9th of february 2017.

02:30:21 i sitting here today my memory i can't tell you is there something in my statement that refers to that or because i'm sorry my mind is a blank at that particular point

02:30:32 particular point the the documentary evidence and i don't want to misrepresent this to you but suggest that rbkc did not participate on that date because of staff shortages does that trigger a recollection in your

02:30:43 does that trigger a recollection in your memory

02:30:45 memory that is triggering a memory of certainly at some point we could not get from our volunteer staff enough people to volunteer for an exercise i i

02:30:57 to volunteer for an exercise i i i can't remember the precise detail i'm happy to take what you said right forgive me i'd passage a time but certainly i do know we did have a problem where i think keith reported we did not we

02:31:09 i think keith reported we did not we couldn't get enough people to starve the beck in an exercise and if that was the case that was then but if not for some of the time but certainly i i do remember that was an issue right thank you let's then look at the exercise done

02:31:23 you let's then look at the exercise done on the 21st of october 2015 uh which you've just explained um and we can go i think straight to the post exercise report

02:31:34 exercise report at rbk3058067

02:31:42 uh and all right yes yes now you'll recall i think that the scenario was a helicopter crash between the west way and and the lamb grove bridge yes yes yes

02:31:53 yes yes yes um

02:31:54 um if we um go please to page two section four

02:32:02 um we can see there's the exercise outcomes what went well what did not go so well

02:32:08 so well uh under 4.1 it says following completion of the exercise an electronic debrief was conducted with all participating staff attending

02:32:18 attending the following gives a breakdown regarding what went well what did not go so well and what improvements would you make the responses are a collation of points raised by all participating staff as many of the points were reiterated

02:32:29 as many of the points were reiterated throughout and if we look at um

02:32:34 4.3 what did not go so well we can see a number of them 10 in all item three specifically some it problems

02:32:45 item three specifically some it problems in the beck at startup number four too much multitasking early on supervisor covering officers work item five not enough beck staff early on

02:32:57 item five not enough beck staff early on and need an information officer and a gis operative in the back now gis help me is that a geographical information system person um

02:33:09 um i think it might be all right

02:33:12 all right um

02:33:13 um this is acronym as defeated even you it seems

02:33:19 this at the time i would have known what it was but uh with the passage of time um not i i'm pretty certain the gis were the people that did our uh

02:33:32 the people that did our uh our internal people that did electronic mapping of all sorts of things and would have been a wisdorf add-in to actually produce a detailed map looking at 4.4 what improvements would you make we need to scroll down please

02:33:43 you make we need to scroll down please to look at that item one

02:33:47 item one further training for beck staff including ils information logging system yes and scene awareness and two explanation of acronyms

02:33:58 and two explanation of acronyms ironically and then if we turn the page item four

02:34:03 item four uh

02:34:04 uh i'm not

02:34:05 i'm not i'm not ignoring the others but just highlighting the main ones for you clearer communication channels between all including updates and feedback and structured handovers five need to increase the frequency of borough

02:34:16 increase the frequency of borough exercises six additional roles and recruitment needed in the back uh and more more bec staff required for exercises including an information officer and a gis trained mapping

02:34:28 officer and a gis trained mapping officer say so there they are again what steps were taken to action those areas for improvement at the time

02:34:41 i don't know specifically what we have done i'm sorry after this length of time i can't recall

02:34:53 i can't recall keith robbins did the exercise and did this report uh and i admire its brevity and its clarity because he obviously gave the key bids out may i see the top of the report yes of

02:35:04 may i see the top of the report yes of course page one please

02:35:08 there's the purpose right so that's written in a format to be given to senior managers um but whether it was i can't tell you what this remove but certainly the the format of that report

02:35:20 certainly the the format of that report is our corporate reporting format but i have to say i simply cannot recall what did that report go or not i just can't remember but you would have you would have known wouldn't you given your position

02:35:31 position if these recommendations uh or suggestions had been put into effect uh i would suggest because i can't recall but given my

02:35:42 because i can't recall but given my reports in 2016 or whenever it was about the staffing issues subsequent to this clearly we we didn't have an effective

02:35:53 clearly we we didn't have an effective follow-up

02:35:55 then let's go to rbk3058054

02:36:05 this is an email between

02:36:08 between you and rachel akanby ah in january 2017 as you can see from the top

02:36:16 top and it's about the next safer city 20s or sc 17 exercise due to take place on the 9th of february 2017

02:36:25 2017 and if we go to page 2 we can see her email to you among others asking for volunteers

02:36:32 and she says dear all attached is the sc 17 briefing note one this is an email of dated the 5th of december 2016. please note volunteers are needed to work in x-con

02:36:44 volunteers are needed to work in x-con for safer city the ex-con volunteers will be based at exercise control in merton please nominate two volunteers from your borough second bullet point to make sc-17 realistic i require information on the

02:36:57 realistic i require information on the challenges faced by your borough during the last cold snap of 09 stroke 10 alternatively if you have any area you think we need to test please let me know and rachel acaba was the business

02:37:08 and rachel acaba was the business continuity officer uh at lambeth uh

02:37:13 uh so

02:37:14 so that's her email to you let's see your response which is really where we want to go page one

02:37:21 uh and this is the fifth of january 2017. so six months before the fire grenfell

02:37:27 grenfell and you say this hi rachel and stewart and it's copied to stuart turner at london fire we are struggling with our beck at the moment lots of beck staff have left over

02:37:38 moment lots of beck staff have left over the past few months and therefore we have a recruitment and training task on at the moment this means that we will not be able to run a full bec exercise internally for safer city we will have our bec open we will respond to requests

02:37:51 our bec open we will respond to requests for sit reps mutual aid etc and we will be using the exercise to provide some validation training for our existing bec staff we will also have some links with key departments that would be affected by the scenario but will not be running

02:38:04 by the scenario but will not be running this as a full control point exercise i regret that we simply will not have anyone to spare for ex-con and then you go on to deal with the experience

02:38:15 go on to deal with the experience of the last cold snap uh on kensington and chelsea you see that

02:38:20 that um

02:38:21 um and over the page at page two top of the screen you'll see your name at the foot of that email

02:38:30 uh now it looks from that that i mean it speaks for itself doesn't it yes yes okay um now um do you remember

02:38:41 um now um do you remember moving on or moving back in time to november 2015 that after exercise responder where you did your own sub exercise um rbkc was also involved in another exercise

02:38:53 another exercise called exercise babel yes and do you remember that this was a different exercise because it was organized by the london borough of hammersmith and fulham yes yes and i think our bkc and a number of agencies

02:39:05 think our bkc and a number of agencies participated in it yes and some of those agencies there's a list of them but nhs public health england um

02:39:14 um chelsea westminster hospital to name it a few do you remember that yes i do

02:39:18 yes i do um no um

02:39:20 um no um you you

02:39:21 you you let's just clear up a little date question here um if you go to your first statement please at page 11 you'll see a paragraph 40 um that you date this exercise to the

02:39:32 um that you date this exercise to the 6th of october 2015. you see that i don't but if we go to rbk405188

02:39:40 the exhibits that you provide including the post exercise report if we can just go to that date the exercises the 6th of november 26 2015 as opposed to the 6th of october

02:39:52 26 2015 as opposed to the 6th of october do you remember which it was was it october or was it november i cannot remember right it is more likely i would suggest that your statement is wrong and that the contemporaneous document is correct i

02:40:03 contemporaneous document is correct i would accept that right do you remember what was the nature of this exercise it was a what we call a tabletop exercise that is there are a number of tables with a mixture of different

02:40:15 tables with a mixture of different organizations sitting around each one a scenario given discussion about that feedback then a development of the scenario more discussion and more feedback about that

02:40:26 feedback about that the

02:40:28 the location

02:40:30 location of the incident was a tower block of flats which is owned by hammersmith and fulham council but geographically in a little bit that otherwise would have been knc

02:40:42 bit that otherwise would have been knc so it was surrounded by knc it was right by the um

02:40:46 by the um the crossway um so

02:40:51 it enabled the

02:40:55 not by burr as such but it enabled both boroughs to consider that issue because for an incident like that it would be likely that we would be providing the rest center rather than set the fulham because geographically our buildings

02:41:06 because geographically our buildings were there and that's quite common amongst london local authorities where if you've got one authority's got an incident by the border the neighbouring borough might actually provide the rest center for them so it gave us that type of thing um

02:41:19 them so it gave us that type of thing um if i could pause you down just scroll down you could see the scenario and it says royal borough kensington and chelsea's call center has been informed of a fire on the 19th and 20th block

02:41:30 of a fire on the 19th and 20th block floors of a of stebbing house queensdale crescent white city w11 the entire block is going to be evacuated an explosion follows resulting in casualties and fatalities which

02:41:41 in casualties and fatalities which caused the number of secondary incidents on the west cross route now

02:41:47 now just

02:41:50 almost out of curiosity

02:41:54 do you remember whether the lfb had any input into this exercise into designing it i can't answer any questions about the design of it um denise prieto the

02:42:05 design of it um denise prieto the emergency planning manager at hamilton fulham designed the exercise and did it and then she offered to bring us in for that

02:42:13 that and keith robbins from my team then participated with her in some of that i attended as an attendee on the day so i'm afraid i can't answer your question right um if you look a little bit above

02:42:25 right um if you look a little bit above it under participation it refers to the other agencies um namely the blue lights including of course fire and you can see the a number of other participants some of which i've

02:42:36 participants some of which i've identified for you did the did the lfb take part in this exercise um my memory suggests they were there and several of them right and the reason i'm asking is because

02:42:47 because well let me put it this way were you surprised that they fly a fire on two floors only of a high-rise residential block um would

02:42:58 um would uh result in the entire block being evacuated

02:43:02 evacuated and therefore triggering um a response the subject of this exercise had that been

02:43:09 been a fire on its own right i would have been surprised but if a memory serves me right this um the scenario involved the prospect of some terrorism within it

02:43:23 prospect of some terrorism within it uh in which case i wasn't surprised that the whole block would be evacuated for that purpose i see um let's go then to page four of this document

02:43:33 document uh where you can see a summary and it says the aims the aiming objectives of this exercise were very well met

02:43:41 well met all agencies recognized that they would be under intense pressure but they would cope mutual aid arrangements are in place and certainly came into play in this instance very positive feedback overall the exercise highlighted the

02:43:52 overall the exercise highlighted the need to understand arrangements in general between boroughs when responding to an incident spanning both boroughs

02:43:59 and then it goes on in the next paragraph in the second part of the next paragraph

02:44:04 paragraph the only gray area was with obtaining information with regard to vulnerable people from other agencies to get a picture as a whole who holds what how do we get the big picture and then under action going forward it

02:44:16 and then under action going forward it says

02:44:17 says tribara asc that's adult social care i think yes have requested that we run a multi-agency exercise concentrating on the issue of identifying the vulnerables as a result of this workshop an initial

02:44:29 as a result of this workshop an initial meeting will be set up to look at what shape this will take we are looking for this to take place before end april 2016.

02:44:38 2016. now was a multi-agency exercise undertaken concentrating on identifying vulnerable persons

02:44:46 i don't have any recollection of that i can't say yes or no but i don't recollect it um note the date uh and we'll they will come in detail to it a little bit later

02:44:58 come in detail to it a little bit later in your evidence but note the date 6th of november 2015 do you recall that that's about a week after a fire at adair house in the borough in which

02:45:12 at adair house in the borough in which there was

02:45:13 there was a mass evacuation by lfb i certainly remember the idea of fire right what do you remember about it um well i was the on-call borough duty

02:45:24 well i was the on-call borough duty officer that day so therefore i got the call

02:45:28 call from

02:45:29 from our call center to say that well yeah i got the call from our call center who would have been called by one of the emergency services to say that there was this fire there so therefore i activated our emergency procedures for that

02:45:41 our emergency procedures for that and i was effectively the beck for where i was for that i had a layla at the scene

02:45:50 i then sent one of my emergency planning officers to back that up housing were involved the tenant management organization were involved there was fire damage to i think four

02:46:02 there was fire damage to i think four flats on one floor um certainly one person taken to hospital smoke inhalation possibly two indications from the fire brigade quite early on that the evacuation for most

02:46:14 early on that the evacuation for most people would not be for a very long period i had put on stand by one of our designated rest centers and i think i put an alert called out of british red

02:46:26 put an alert called out of british red cross

02:46:27 cross but a local church opened its doors spontaneously and when my emergency planning officer keith robbins went there to look at it his assessment was that the community were being adequately looked for and we

02:46:39 were being adequately looked for and we thought well pointless moving people from there to somewhere else for only a couple of hours before they go home my recollection is that people mostly were allowed to go home fairly rapidly

02:46:50 were allowed to go home fairly rapidly and that housing and tenant management organization between them were dealing with then the re-housing of those people that were unable to go home because their flats were too badly damaged for that

02:47:01 that now um moving on then to exit well so before i leave babel was the tmo involved in the exercise babel i don't think so

02:47:10 think so given that it involved evacuation was there any thought given to involving the tma

02:47:18 i don't know i i'm not aware of that all right let's then move to another exercise in 2016 that you refer to in your statement namely exercised unified

02:47:29 your statement namely exercised unified response

02:47:30 response um

02:47:31 um uh in that year and i think that was a four day response exercise yes yes and um

02:47:37 and um it was a live response for the emergency services but i think it's right that a number of different local authorities came together to run a beck for four days yes so and there were eight shifts across

02:47:49 so and there were eight shifts across four days yes yes uh and the focus of one of the focuses is this right was running a mutual aid bec

02:47:55 bec yes very purposely not to put entire council back teams in but very purposely to put totally mixtures of people in knowing that that would provide some

02:48:06 knowing that that would provide some issues so that we could identify those and move forward with the standard a standardization project i see did you have a role in that exercise i was one of two observers of that beg um i was

02:48:18 of two observers of that beg um i was part of the team supporting joe cousins at lambeth who who ran that part of the exercise for us uh so in sort of scoping the place out and sort of general advice about what

02:48:30 and sort of general advice about what we're going to do there but on the exercise itself marion hearns from the city of london corporation an emergency planner there and i spent four days observing and noting

02:48:41 spent four days observing and noting down and recording our observations about the four sorry the eight beg shifts and the eight spec managers or council silvers that were involved across those four shifts

02:48:52 were involved across those four shifts and from that we wrote a

02:48:57 wrote a multi-page document

02:49:01 document setting out the experiences we observed and with a series of recommendations to take matters forward and that report went to the local authorities panel and is let's look at it i think it's this document rbk3033595

02:49:15 please

02:49:19 is that the document yes

02:49:23 yes and did you author that jointly authored with marion with marion hearn right and it says the date is 17th may 2016.

02:49:31 may 2016. um if we just go just one thing in it please page five paragraph 5.3.5 um information management incident log one of the things that was picked up

02:49:43 one of the things that was picked up here was that the online logging system provided for the exercise back had to be used with minimal training and wasn't set up to do anything other than record information beck staff were unable to filter the various tasks outstanding items or use

02:49:55 various tasks outstanding items or use it to manage their area of work it therefore was not an effective information management and coordination tool

02:50:04 was that a problem at rbkc particularly or a problem across the back

02:50:11 the back now that was the this is the the bec that was created for the exercise at unified response so it wasn't in an existing local authority control center we were down at a disused

02:50:23 control center we were down at a disused power station in kent um and with manual facilities so it was just created for the purpose of the exercise the logging system that was used if i remember rightly was something

02:50:35 remember rightly was something using google in some way i didn't create any of that right at the time rbkc's logging system which we had created ourselves using um sharepoint microsoft sharepoint which

02:50:47 sharepoint microsoft sharepoint which the authority used for for document storage using the lists function within that we had the incident logging system as we called it where

02:50:58 where we could not just enter information but you could also record which department or sub-department you could record whether the item was open or closed which meant if you wished to you could do a certain amount of interrogation

02:51:10 do a certain amount of interrogation at certain points either by function or by looking to see what was left to be done

02:51:15 done so that's what we were using in rbkc what was used in the

02:51:22 the created exercise back didn't do very much

02:51:26 much across london at that time i think some local authorities were still using paper-based logs some people were using excel spreadsheets logs created within that

02:51:37 spreadsheets logs created within that there was no standardized electronic logging system across london right i see let's go then to your second statement in the rec and the recommendations that came from this exercise

02:51:49 exercise if we go please in your second statement to page 45 paragraph 28.1 [Music]

02:51:56 [Music] you say

02:51:58 you say i page 44 i think i should be 28.1

02:52:04 um you say the recommendations from exercise unified response were for a pan-london project to be set up subsequently agreed by the local authorities panel of the london resilience forum the purpose of the

02:52:15 resilience forum the purpose of the project was to take forward a review of london's local authority beck systems to research good practice in the management of the tactical plan for the local authority in responding to an emergency to consider the information management

02:52:26 to consider the information management and sharing systems and to review the training required to implement a new pan-london standardized beck what was the progress of those recommendations

02:52:37 recommendations at the time of the grenfell tower fire which was more than a year later so

02:52:43 so that

02:52:44 that project group was joe cousins at lambeth and myself we

02:52:50 we in the months following the exercise we visited a number of london local authorities we visited all three emergency services we visited the military london district military

02:53:03 military london district military we talked to one of the utilities certainly we were looking and doing research about various ways that others did their coordination of information in

02:53:14 did their coordination of information in a manager in a in a control center and how they recorded that and also how they dealt with the the this emerging tactical silver aspect of that wide variety of things

02:53:25 variety of things i think by the time of the fire we had done

02:53:30 done we'd certainly done a report back and i think within that we had started to to sketch out some principles that we thought should be in a future beck system

02:53:41 system um but at this point this was still putting out the concepts out there this this wasn't a finished document by any chance of choice and there was still work to be done and that simply reflected you know and

02:53:53 and that simply reflected you know and the other work streams from exercise unified response were taken about the same time um survivor reception centers emergency rest centers and things like that and that reflected that we were doing this in addition to the day job as

02:54:04 doing this in addition to the day job as it were

02:54:05 it were now considering the various training sessions

02:54:08 sessions uh

02:54:09 uh uh and exercises that we've discussed together other than exercise unified response which span four days the remaining exercises is this right we're table top exercises i believe so yes and

02:54:20 table top exercises i believe so yes and in in your view was that sufficient in order to ensure that our bkc staff were adequately trained and equipped to respond to a major emergency incident such as the grenfell tower fire

02:54:35 certainly we could have done better i should have done better looking at it

02:54:41 can we go to rbk3035364

02:54:48 now the first page of this document is as it says rebecca blackburn's statement uh to the inquiry um it's her first statement she was one of your contingency planning team as you've

02:55:00 your contingency planning team as you've told us and if we go please to page three paragraph 12

02:55:07 at the top of the screen it says most boroughs undertake regular testing of emergency plans this helps iron out any difficulties and ensures that everyone knows what to do however in my

02:55:18 everyone knows what to do however in my view the borough's plans had not been properly tested we did not undertake sufficient large-scale emergency simulations instead the cpu held the odd mini exercise

02:55:30 held the odd mini exercise first of all cpu that's the contingency planning unit isn't it yes um

02:55:35 um my wider question is do you agree with what rebecca blackburn says there in this in the second third and fourth lines

02:55:45 lines of that paragraph i'm not going to disagree overall

02:55:52 so that's a yes you agree yes yes thank you um mr chairman uh it's four minutes to one i'm i'm going to start on a different um topic um i can start on it and probably cover

02:56:04 um i can start on it and probably cover a few quick questions before we get to lunch but i'm into your hands well is is it going to be a substantial topic yeah it is as a topic it's a substantial topic we better start it

02:56:15 substantial topic we better start it after lunch we are we're making good progress i think so yes well uh mr kerry it's time we had a break for lunch we're not don't usually break four minutes early but today i think we've got a reason to do so so we'll stop there

02:56:27 reason to do so so we'll stop there we'll resume please at two o'clock and again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it when they're out of the room thank you all right thank you very much would you care to give the usher please

02:56:50 thank you very much just a minute two o'clock thank you mr

02:57:14 you

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