Rydon Evidence - Monday 7th September 2020 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:08 right would you ask mr maynard to come back in please thank you

00:00:28 right mr maynard ready to go on yep yep good thank you yes mr billet mr chairman mr maynard um i was in the middle of asking you some questions about savings on windows now i'm going to come

00:00:39 savings on windows now i'm going to come back to that topic in a few minutes but can i

00:00:42 can i go back to something we were discussing this morning about these the savings on the cladding by wherever a diversion if you like of where we were um we've looked at a

00:00:53 of where we were um we've looked at a a number of numbers this morning and i just want to just see if i i can just identify one thing can i ask you

00:01:00 you to go please to ryd three zeros nine four two four four

00:01:09 now this is um the ride and tender submission which we looked at this morning but not i think in respect of the the cladding pricing can i ask you to look at page 15 and just bear in mind that this

00:01:20 page 15 and just bear in mind that this document is dated the 13th of february 2014

00:01:25 2014 right now here on page 15 we can see the costing

00:01:29 costing for alternative design solutions and under item one we can see that ryden are

00:01:39 ryden are tendering on the basis of a uh a saving because it's in red for cladding of 243 067 pounds

00:01:50 for cladding of 243 067 pounds now do you know um how that figure was arrived at no you don't

00:02:00 are you aware of any discussions which had been had with harley by ryden prior to the 13th of february 2014 about

00:02:12 february 2014 about the savings to be made in respect of cladding

00:02:16 no

00:02:19 all right can we then look at ryd409312

00:02:29 now this is an email of the 20th of june 2014 from you to jason bethel who was one of your surveyors we saw earlier i think he'd attended one of the

00:02:40 attended one of the um progress meetings correct we looked at and you say to him uh well subject grenfell towers revised csa again and then there are a

00:02:52 revised csa again and then there are a couple of valuations and a tender report and then you say cheers mate and if i can look at the second paragraph you say also i did a prelims build up on the attached

00:03:03 attached csa that i sent across to twitch in with certain figures in it could you add this into yours and break it down the tender report attached has my workings on the prelim tab column a b summarized in columns a i aj row 30.

00:03:16 summarized in columns a i aj row 30. now um i don't think we need the detail of that but what i want to do is show you the attachment uh or one of the attachments which was attached that's the tender report that you attach

00:03:28 report that you attach and that is that uh is ryd 931

00:03:36 ryd 931 8 please ryd9318 and can we please have the native version of that up

00:04:00 now this is um dated the third of june it's an excel spreadsheet as you can as you can see a date of the third of june

00:04:10 june just looking at it is it familiar to you oh yeah that's the report form yes now if the operator could click on the

00:04:21 operator could click on the cell at the very bottom of the page that says ve

00:04:26 and open that up we can see here are the value engineering options and you can see that uh under windows and curtain walling

00:04:38 under windows and curtain walling cladding is the second item down aluminium in lieu of zinc tender value and we can there see the 419

00:04:45 419 267 as a saving that's the 420 000 odd figure we we saw in the 8th of may email you were

00:04:54 you were giving to steve blake for information that's the that's the full amount of the harley offer uh on uh on on cassette uh for aluminium indoor zinc

00:05:07 uh for aluminium indoor zinc and then the saving offered which is to the tmo

00:05:11 the tmo is there put in at 293.067 now first of all there's a difference between the 293 067 and the 293

00:05:23 between the 293 067 and the 293 368. the difference of 301 pounds uh in the offer can you account for that discrepancy no it's probably just a cow carer all right can i ask the operator to click

00:05:35 right can i ask the operator to click then on the cell of the 293

00:05:46 and open that up so that it we can see how it's built up i think it needs to be updated

00:05:59 if it could be clicked on again there that's it now you can see there that the 293067 is the sum of a saving of 243.867 plus 50 000 pounds

00:06:11 of 243.867 plus 50 000 pounds does that ring a bell with you no [Applause] do you know who decided that the 293 should be offered on the basis of the original 243

00:06:24 on the basis of the original 243 in the tender plus 50 000 no

00:06:33 on what we have seen

00:06:37 you can help us with this is the senior surveyor

00:06:40 surveyor or the managing surveyor at the time is it fair to summarize that what ryden has done was to submit in the tender the sum of two hundred and forty three thousand and sixty seven pounds hear from the tmo

00:06:53 and sixty seven pounds hear from the tmo that more savings were needed go to harley and ask what further savings could be achieved uh get a figure of four hundred and twenty odd thousand and then decide that 50 000 precisely

00:07:04 and then decide that 50 000 precisely should be passed up to the tmo uh with ryden keeping the rest it appears that way yes thank you can i then go back to where i was when

00:07:15 can i then go back to where i was when we broke for lunch and i was in the middle of showing you an email

00:07:23 ryd3029327 and i'd like the operator police to put up pages two and 3 of that email to run together

00:07:35 this is an email chain between you simon o'connor simon lawrence and adam marriott who i think was still a

00:07:47 marriott who i think was still a surveyor on this uh project at that point and at the bottom of page two um

00:07:55 two um we can see sorry bottom of page three i'm saying sorry we can see an email from simon o'connor on the 23rd of january 2015 to you subject window trim zach can you please let me know what we

00:08:06 zach can you please let me know what we have in the budget for trimming the windows internally per window and your response to simon o'connor is in the email above it and then over to page two

00:08:16 page two on the 26th of january 2015 and you say that as discussed sd carpentry is currently subcontracted to carry out these works on a labor-only basis

00:08:26 basis we have a total material allowance of 29 000 pounds for these works 30 floor number windows per floor times 20 number floors is 680 windows that gives us an allowance of 42.50 b per window assuming 1.25

00:08:39 of 42.50 b per window assuming 1.25 meters times 1.25 meters windows gives you

00:08:42 you uh five per meter per window i think that's right therefore price per meter to achieve is eight pounds per meter have i read that right

00:08:54 per meter have i read that right yep um and then over the page i'm off for lunch now as my brain hurts you might want to double check the above quants as we have quickly put this together and why

00:09:05 have quickly put this together and why was it necessary for you to do this calculation so quickly uh jessica simon wanted to know

00:09:11 know um what was what we'd allowed for what was in the budget um and probably whatever stresses and strains i had in that day i probably need to give him the answer

00:09:22 i probably need to give him the answer quickly so i could move on with my other other pieces of work i can only imagine it's something to do with that did simon o'connor or you double check the quantities that you'd referred to um he may have done did you

00:09:36 he may have done did you probably wouldn't necessarily need to uh you you'd order what you needed to so that was just a a brief summary of how it got to that but you you'd order what you need once you're on site so

00:09:47 what you need once you're on site so it's just a guide right just a guy did you have a double did were they ever double checked well it would have been when an order was placed and we had to order the materials

00:09:54 materials looking at the response from simon lawrence 28th of january to you and simon

00:09:57 simon o'connor he says zack stroke adam i've just been up to the show flat to look at the window sample which looks good as you know we are using the cheaper upvc trim rather than pre-finished timber board or painted mdf

00:10:08 timber board or painted mdf i'm pretty sure that whatever we use will blow the budget in material cost probably need to double the material budget what did you understand mr lawrence i mean by probably need to double the material budget

00:10:20 double the material budget um obviously he's looking at our allowance that we've got there where we said we've got 29 000 for the materials and he's saying probably going to need to be more than that um that's that's what you're saying

00:10:33 um that's that's what you're saying right

00:10:34 right does it mean that the ride and budget for the window trims was half what it should have been uh he's suggesting he's lower than what he needs today um and then if we look at the rest of the email chain uh

00:10:48 email chain uh you you say top of page two to him and simon lawrence so we put something in more expensive than eight pounds

00:10:58 is that per meter correct yes question mark that's a question to him and on page one mr lawrence responds to your question

00:11:06 question he says yep we come up with a few ideas of how to reduce overall material usage but i don't think we'll be making it any cheaper

00:11:12 cheaper or near eight pounds per meter your reply but we found pre-finished board at this rate query simon to you lawrence to you fair play when can you get some to cite

00:11:24 when can you get some to cite and then you say the top of page one what's your point you found the pre-finished board on the internet that formed the basis of our costs just looking at that exchange there on that day is it fair

00:11:36 exchange there on that day is it fair to say that you didn't understand what materials were being used on this project or how much they cost in this respect at least uh no what i'm asking is is simon found some costs and formed a

00:11:47 simon found some costs and formed a budget

00:11:48 budget um which is what the original budget was was made up for and then we've said okay so why are you now saying that it's going to be going over budget when you formulated the original costs

00:12:01 when you formulated the original costs or you gave us the original uh indication of cost um and that's why i'm querying but i thought you said you found a pre-finished board at the rate below based on our budget um

00:12:13 below based on our budget um and then i think sarcastically he's come back and said fair kate well when can you get some to cite it and that's when i said well what point you're trying to make you found some pre-finished board on the internet that form the basis of our cost

00:12:25 internet that form the basis of our cost so it was just a dialogue over why the budget was so far out what was the answer yeah well clearly that what he intended to use and the rate

00:12:36 to use and the rate that he got before wasn't wasn't right why is that i don't know

00:12:44 okay um i'd like to ask you some questions about kingspan around the use of kingspan around the windows if i may now can we ask can we ask or can we turn please

00:12:57 ryd3040686 first of all

00:13:02 this is an email from mark dixon of the 6th of may 2015 to adam marriott copied to simon lawrence and simon o'connor but not i think to you and the subject

00:13:15 but not i think to you and the subject is priced for window surrounds do you just looking at it recall this email or discussions about the subject at this time early may 2015. i don't recall

00:13:26 early may 2015. i don't recall this particular email but i do recall discussions at the time right and let's have a look at the email he you can see that he attaches to it something called sdp front sheet quote 6th of may

00:13:38 front sheet quote 6th of may 2015.

00:13:41 let's look at that it's at ryd3088957

00:13:53 and the title is grenfell windows surrounds

00:13:56 surrounds do you recall seeing this quotation um no well let's see how we go if you look at the leftmost column a on the description of item it says uh

00:14:07 on the description of item it says uh you can see in the second line down next to

00:14:09 to point five place celetex insulation to reveals

00:14:14 reveals and base of window do you remember seeing a document which which or under which uh sd plastering were asked to place celetex insulation

00:14:27 were asked to place celetex insulation to reveals in the base of the window no i know there was discussions on site when they're up um looking at how to finish around the windows

00:14:37 windows so there was there was discussions on site between the subcontractors and the project team do you recall approving this description of this item i don't recall approving that right

00:14:48 that right the reason i'm asking you mr maynard is that we are simon lawrence about this document and this quotation and he he told us um that within ryden it would have been read and approved by the quantity surveyors

00:14:59 quantity surveyors and for our reference that's day 25 page 37 at line 21. that was the team i think you were leading by this stage as commercial manager wasn't it yes yes so my question really is

00:15:12 yes yes so my question really is given that it would have been read and approved by the quantity surveyors as he says can you explain why this document isn't familiar to you it wouldn't always go through me as it would something like this would sometimes be dealt with by the project

00:15:24 sometimes be dealt with by the project surveyor himself right who was that uh that had a marriage this time adam was copied in on this email so right does that mean that he would have seen something and not reported it to you

00:15:34 you uh generally we it would be reported if it was a

00:15:38 it was a a big cost difference or there was something that's going to affect the budget then i'd need to pass up the line to

00:15:44 to steve to flag that you know there's a potential issue here we need to look at it

00:15:48 it um but you know day-to-day stuff project surveyors would would get on and do what they need to do right

00:15:55 right i mean just on the face of that this is quite a big quotation isn't it because it's showing a cost per floor uh of 120 000 odd just under 121 000 nod per floor the total contract value isn't

00:16:07 per floor the total contract value isn't it 120 000 yeah yeah per floor uh no

00:16:13 well all right um still even if it's not performable the total it's still a substantial sum of money and my question really is

00:16:21 really is why it is that you didn't get to see this document given that it was it was within the domain of the surveying team i wouldn't get to see everything um i'd see high level costs if it if it was

00:16:34 i'd see high level costs if it if it was an issue

00:16:34 an issue i wouldn't necessarily see all the detail um

00:16:38 detail um it's 120 000 it seems like a lot of money but in the scheme of it isn't an 8 million pound project right what just help me then if you

00:16:49 right what just help me then if you didn't get to see it as the person in charge of the quantity surveyors team what processes did ryden have in place for approving quotations of this nature

00:17:00 for approving quotations of this nature and

00:17:01 and generally the the job surveyor and the contracts manager uh and the project manager would be quite in their rights to approve it and proceed i mean

00:17:12 proceed i mean it would only become an issue if it was over the budget or it was you know if there was a particular issue that was raised on it would then it get discussed wider than that um so it was

00:17:24 discussed wider than that um so it was dependent on on the on the issue that with with the cost really if there was no issue it wouldn't need to be discussed any further than the project team i see i mean to be fair to you this is

00:17:35 i see i mean to be fair to you this is sent to simon lawrence and simon o'connor said they do get to see it but my question is really why of the surveying team only adam marriott gets to see it

00:17:43 to see it and not you that's the person unless he if he felt he needed to go through with me then we would have done but if not he would have dealt with it accordingly i see mr lawrence also said that he

00:17:54 i see mr lawrence also said that he would expect the quantity surveyors to make sense of this quotation and then report back as required and that was day 25 page 37 at line five is that is the way you understood it we would we would make

00:18:05 you understood it we would we would make sense of it from a point of a numbers point of view um so we can report the numbers but the content within it and the the technical side of things we would uh

00:18:16 technical side of things we would uh rely on input from a contracts manager and a project manager to make sure it's what they want right to be installed um i see so with their responsibility

00:18:27 um i see so with their responsibility to understand and make a decision about whether celetex insulation should be placed to the reveals on the base of the window yeah i think it's a team responsibility but it's a production that's a production decision that yes i

00:18:39 that's a production decision that yes i follow now i mean you could see from this section in this document that mr dixon is specifying that celetex would be used did you or

00:18:51 would be used did you or rather did anybody in your team i think we know about you to take any steps to check whether the material specified in quotations such as this were compliant

00:19:01 compliant with the specification for the project the nbs specification i can't answer that

00:19:09 and did you yourself take any steps to find out exactly what the celetex product

00:19:13 product product was no no no

00:19:19 do you know whether there was a system in place whereby adam marriott who was the surveyor on this who received this and who was answerable to you took steps

00:19:30 and who was answerable to you took steps to check

00:19:32 to check the this specification against the nbs specification no he would he would rely on input from uh

00:19:39 uh the site team on items such as that right can you account for uh why uh this quotation was not

00:19:50 uh this quotation was not compliant with the mbs specification no can i ask you to look at sea

00:20:01 50169 which is the nbs specification it's pursuing this point a bit further and go to page 243 please just while we're on page

00:20:14 just while we're on page well we've shot past it but during the course of your work on the grenfell tower

00:20:20 tower um project did you ever look at the nbs specification yourself uh yeah yes so you're familiar with it yes right we're looking at page 243 then you can see under item 235 compressible

00:20:32 you can see under item 235 compressible insulation in gaps manufacturer rockwool limited and then the product is flexible slabs that's the reference and then material mineral wool to

00:20:43 and then material mineral wool to bsen13162

00:20:45 bsen13162 do you remember noting or seeing the in the nbs

00:20:49 the nbs specification the compressible the compressible insulation in gaps was required

00:20:54 required and that the material was to be rockwool i don't remember noting that no we would rely on our subcontractors to pick that up right

00:21:08 that would depend on whether or not the subcontractors were provided with the mbs specification wouldn't it correct do you know whether or not mark dixon was provided with the nba specification in order to be able to formulate his

00:21:19 in order to be able to formulate his quotation i didn't say that for certain though

00:21:21 though who was responsible do you remember for providing mark dixon with the nba specifically it would be this the site team

00:21:27 team okay as well as the surveyor so it'd be the project team

00:21:34 i mean do you accept that where mr dixon has referred to celetex as to be used in these locations that wasn't compliant with the specification yeah he's made reference to celestex so it would appear that way but that's a

00:21:47 it would appear that way but that's a that's a quotation it could still be picked up

00:21:50 picked up before he actually does any installation

00:21:55 there's anyone on your team qualified to take a view as to the compliance of the products

00:21:59 products that would appear in quotations such as this from mr dixon no

00:22:07 now we asked gary martin about the materials to be used around the windows and

00:22:13 and he told the inquiry on day 30 page 72 at line 18 that if he had ever asked anybody about whether a material was supposed to be used or not it would have been you was it your

00:22:26 it would have been you was it your understanding that you were the first port of call if a site manager such as gary martin needed to know what materials to use no what was your understanding about who mr martin should have been speaking to

00:22:37 mr martin should have been speaking to about this speaking to his contracts manager or his designer

00:22:41 designer designer being uh well in in this case studio e were appointed by us as our architectural designer um he would he would have discussions with them um

00:22:53 with them um obviously it's just as much responsibility for a site manager to understand what's in his mbs specs so he knows what's been uh installed or should be installed before before it actually gets installed i mean that's the

00:23:04 i mean that's the that's the backstop you should be aware of what's going into his building it wouldn't be down to a surveyor to uh to to rule that they don't have the technical knowledge to do that

00:23:16 right so you say mr martin is mistaken in his evidence about that do you yeah okay

00:23:23 yeah okay um let's turn to a different topic i think probably the final or at least nearly final topic um which is about responsiveness

00:23:35 responsiveness i'll can i ask you please to be shown ryd for

00:23:38 ryd for sorry three zeros eight nine zero eight two

00:23:42 two that's ryd three zeros eight nine zero eight two

00:23:48 this is an email from neil reid at artelia to simon lawrence on the 22nd of may

00:23:57 of may 2015 copied to claire williams and people at artelia grenfell complained and you're not

00:24:08 grenfell complained and you're not copied in on this so i'm not going to assume that you saw it at the time but following the progress meeting on tuesday the 19th of may i set out below our frustrations with regard to ryden's current performance on this project

00:24:19 this project with specific reference to cost to straight commercial matters the issues are one

00:24:23 are one the apparent lack of qs input on the project we were told some time ago that your qs would be site-based and provide three days a week but this is not materialized two lack of responses to queries or

00:24:35 two lack of responses to queries or inquiries around new or additional work we've been promised quote stroke cost advice in connection with changes but these are not forthcoming and delaying the client's ability to issue instructions

00:24:46 instructions three progress meetings and valuations our qs attended the progress meeting on tuesday

00:24:50 tuesday but no writing quest qs was in attendance rediscussion and verification of writing's next valuation

00:24:58 valuation now is it fair to say that all of these three issues or each of these three issues

00:25:02 issues were within your remit at the time uh no um the project surveyor was obviously left to his own devices at that time um it started to become apparent that

00:25:14 it started to become apparent that perhaps he wasn't performing as well as he should do um so we looked to try and resolve that uh

00:25:20 uh we had limited results at the time uh we weren't blessed with 20 displays in our team we had a we had a

00:25:27 a small team um with some some of them being assistant surveyors um which needed assistance and help and you would occasionally get issues like this where perhaps they were falling

00:25:38 this where perhaps they were falling behind

00:25:41 behind and we obviously had to try and try and deal with that as best we could um and that yeah adam was i felt was was doing his best perhaps he was he was struggling a little bit but

00:25:52 was he was struggling a little bit but we prefer to try and help someone through manage the process with them rather than you know criticize or you know so the projects of air you're referring to in that answer that was that in

00:26:05 to in that answer that was that in marriott was it that was adam at the time and i believe i believe

00:26:09 i believe not long after this i believe he left our employment right adam adam merritt was answerable to you as his boss correct yeah so in fact um he's right isn't it that

00:26:20 so in fact um he's right isn't it that actually all three of these did fall within your ultimate responsibility yeah ultimately yeah yes and

00:26:29 yes and were these concerns justified do you think um well let me ask you a different way first of all would you were these concerns brought to your attention at the time we had had had discussions um right

00:26:41 we had had had discussions um right about his performance but sometimes there's personality clashes that cause cause those um those points i understand that um let me then ask the question were these concerns justified

00:26:53 question were these concerns justified at the time do you think they become apparent that they were justified yet

00:27:02 now we can see that mr lawrence then passed this email on to you yup gents you can see that at the top of the page

00:27:11 the page uh the same day what steps did you take at this time to remedy the problems that mr reed was complaining about so obviously uh myself and steve obviously then had to have a chat um obviously steve

00:27:23 obviously steve was who i reported to uh and if it was to do

00:27:26 to do additional resources that we needed i'd have to have a chat with steve see if we can

00:27:29 can we can get additional results in if not we had to manage it around the team um try and get other people involved to assist

00:27:37 assist i might have to assist myself drop down to help

00:27:41 to help so we had some discussions internally like that and we looked to try and resolve it over the course of course of time you can't just sort it out within a within a day everyone's got their own day job that

00:27:52 everyone's got their own day job that they're doing um so yeah at the time we just had to try and manage it we had obviously sit down with adam see what his workload is see what he's his issues were and see if we could

00:28:04 his issues were and see if we could spread it around the team to try and try and get it sorted so in a nutshell you saying that actually you sorted it out by spreading the workload wider because these concerns had been generated

00:28:15 these concerns had been generated because adam murray was overstretched i wouldn't say he was overstressed he just might have been struggling um with the work content itself um why is that i don't believe he had another

00:28:25 another scheme on at this time i might be wrong i don't believe he had another scheme on this time

00:28:29 this time um perhaps perhaps he had other other frustrations like i said i think not long after this he he left um so you know there's many

00:28:40 he left um so you know there's many reasons why someone might be falling behind or

00:28:42 behind or or having issues at work um so he's what you say that he was you wouldn't say he was overstretched but it might have been struggling with the work contents itself what what

00:28:53 the work contents itself what what why would that be well i don't know did you get to the bottom of it um not really i mean he was quite he was quite a competent guy so uh what he did um was was normally of

00:29:04 uh what he did um was was normally of good

00:29:05 good uh good quality but potentially maybe not

00:29:08 not quick enough and i think that was causing or began to cause simon some frustrations and clearly the client there look there was lots of outstanding issues that had started to build up so right i mean the first complaint is that

00:29:20 right i mean the first complaint is that the qs would be what wasn't providing three days a week of sight presence yeah that's not to do with struggling with the work content no um can you explain why he wasn't on

00:29:32 no um can you explain why he wasn't on site three days a week as promised um well one i'm not sure uh who made that promise it certainly wasn't me

00:29:40 wasn't me uh our surveyors weren't genuinely site-based um they were generally office based um so clearly they'd been told that there was gonna be someone on-site

00:29:51 that there was gonna be someone on-site um

00:29:53 um and it's you know sometimes it's not as productive for someone to work on site if they could sometimes get more done when they're in the office so um it was a discussion obviously steve simon and myself of

00:30:05 simon and myself of where is he actually best suited you know just plonking someone on site doesn't mean they're going to get the work content done um so again i don't see that as a

00:30:16 again i don't see that as a whether someone's on site three days a week two days a week it's not necessarily a big issue the big issue is is are they getting their work done uh to make the project needs

00:30:27 uh to make the project needs did you ask adam marriott why aren't you on site three days a week as as as indicated well probably i didn't feel that he probably needed to be on site myself i mean he it's a long journey um to to get up

00:30:40 it's a long journey um to to get up there from where he was based we we were closer his our office was closer to his home um you know it's not he hadn't signed up to be going up there for three days a week so it would have caused him a stress

00:30:51 stress um so we needed to get the right balance right for the team and for the individual so in summary how did you resolve this problem

00:30:59 problem well we we i think we did our best we we had to sit down i think i took some of the workload i think some of the other team members took some of the workload we looked at what orders he still had to place um and we

00:31:12 orders he still had to place um and we we sort of tried to to manage it that way to to assist him um and and help him in that way that's the way we felt was best to help him at the time and was that a satisfactory outcome

00:31:23 outcome um it it started things moving um like i say it took me away from perhaps my my day job of overlooking uh all our jobs it then took me away to maybe focusing a bit more on

00:31:35 me away to maybe focusing a bit more on some of this work um which again is not really what she's been doing um but needs must for certain projects so i think it i think it helped eventually but obviously it's a slow progress it's

00:31:46 but obviously it's a slow progress it's not going to happen instantly um so it probably took a month or so

00:31:51 or so and i think in that time like i say i think adam left and then we had to bring another surveyor who was just becoming free into

00:31:58 free into into this project to try and finish it off he was more senior let's look at a different document ryds three zeros four four three four nine and can we please

00:32:09 four three four nine and can we please have pages one and two up together i'd like to start by looking in the middle of page two which is an email from simon

00:32:23 lawrence to james clifton and you i think was james clifton another of your surveyors he was yes this is the 22nd of june 2015. james

00:32:36 this is the 22nd of june 2015. james zack please find attack andy hannibal's invoice for stewart hannibal's management service at grenfell simon o'connor can confirm hours etc

00:32:44 hours etc andy adam marriott has now left so can you make sure james clifton has copied into all future correspondence around invoices please

00:32:54 so just pausing there it looks as if adam marriott had gone by the top by the 22nd of june 2015. that's not long after no uh the lack of responsiveness email we

00:33:05 the lack of responsiveness email we looked at earlier in fact it's exactly a month

00:33:07 month yeah so um can you help with um with that i mean it looks as if the response to the difficulties was that adam merritt was left he left

00:33:20 was that adam merritt was left he left he had in his notice obviously and left we didn't we didn't sack him or anything and then james clifton came in correct did you brief james clifton in relation to all the matters of which

00:33:31 in relation to all the matters of which neil reid had complained the previous month

00:33:33 month he was aware we're a small team um so we we discussed the issues and james was aware of what he was walking into right

00:33:47 and um and why did adam marriott leave did i come out of the blue uh it did to me

00:33:54 me right was it a response to being taken i would say taken to task with being uh confronted with the complaints i don't think so no i think he he felt he could further his career elsewhere and that's certainly

00:34:06 career elsewhere and that's certainly the explanation that he gave to me that was his reasons to move on

00:34:10 on right he had now your response to this email

00:34:14 email uh comes the same day we look at the bottom of page one over the to the top of page two steve hannibal's rate now reduced however still on site exclamation mark exclamation mark cheers

00:34:25 exclamation mark exclamation mark cheers zach

00:34:26 zach um and then that email um as i say it was a response to steve blake

00:34:33 blake why was that sent to steve blake um because

00:34:38 because at the end of the day he would make overall decisions on managers who were on site [Music]

00:34:45 [Music] he was in charge of allocating resource um and it was a an issue that was potentially going to cause us

00:34:57 cause us an over-expenditure on the on the prelims side of things so i just wanted to make sure he was aware that there was someone still on site yes was it your view that mr hannibal

00:35:08 yes was it your view that mr hannibal should not have been on site at that point

00:35:10 point uh the idea was i think he was going to be on

00:35:13 be on site for a certain duration um which is what we budgeted for and clearly he was now continuing to be on site longer um there may have been justifiable

00:35:24 um there may have been justifiable reasons for that which obviously still had work to do but also we didn't want it that he was just sat on site for no other reason when he could be going to

00:35:32 to another site um and being more productive so um i advise steve that was the case um to yeah to make him aware yeah look at the bottom of page one

00:35:44 the bottom of page one um mr blake writes to mr lawrence it seems not you um the gift of timing this is burning a hole in our pockets can we reduce this to once a month catch up

00:35:55 up uh now the catch-up meant let's catch up as opposed to you must catch up i think we established that but uh was it your view that mr hanibus was burning a hole in our pockets

00:36:05 pockets as mr blake was telling uh mr lawrence yeah yeah

00:36:08 yeah yeah he was yeah it was money it was it was costs on a site that potentially wasn't needed

00:36:13 needed right and if we look at the top of the page we can see simon lawrence's reply he said not that i just

00:36:20 i just this is to steve blake and you don't i think see this at the time but he says not that i disagree with the fact steward is costing us money so probably over budget however it disappoints me that zac has sent this to you without talking to me

00:36:31 sent this to you without talking to me if i'd actually seen any budget for grenfell in the last eight months at least then we may have been able to manage this differently can you explain why mr lawrence felt that he hadn't as he told us seen any budget for

00:36:43 as he told us seen any budget for grenfell in the last eight months yeah he's again i think uh it's another another thing with uh with adam um perhaps he hadn't been going through uh

00:36:54 perhaps he hadn't been going through uh things as

00:36:55 things as as you know diligently as he could be with simon um but it works both ways um so yeah as a as a contracts manager um

00:37:08 [Music] but saying that he hadn't been going through things diligently as he could with simon it's something of an understatement isn't it

00:37:19 something of an understatement isn't it did you know that your contracts manager had not seen any budget for this project in the eight months prior to june 2015. we do we discuss budgets um we do

00:37:31 we do we discuss budgets um we do we do high-level forecasting every month um so we're aware of where the job was going

00:37:39 going uh we had monthly progress reports um where we'd highlight uh where we believed how each job was performing um so you know steve

00:37:50 um so you know steve steve was happy uh with the information he was currently getting um so yeah we were imagining it accordingly well was it would it be normal operating

00:38:02 well was it would it be normal operating procedure

00:38:03 procedure at ryden on a project such as grenfell for the contracts manager not to be shown a budget for a period of eight months no so why on grenfell again no particular reason

00:38:16 again no particular reason well there must be a reason why just obviously adam was struggling again and he hadn't produced a detailed budget but we knew we had our budgets we knew where we were going um so yeah although maybe he hadn't gone

00:38:29 um so yeah although maybe he hadn't gone through it simon or simon felt that he hadn't

00:38:31 hadn't hadn't seen one uh sometimes that could be a

00:38:35 be a throwaway comment that uh just to dig someone out potentially but

00:38:42 did steve blake or anybody else come to you and and ask you why simon lawrence is the contracts manager had not seen a budget no for grenfell no no no because

00:38:53 no for grenfell no no no because we like say we were discussing high level cost reporting as as we went steve was

00:38:57 was steve was aware of where we were so he was happy right he then goes on to say at the moment we have a poorly performing site which is mainly but not totally caused by poor surveying

00:39:08 by poor surveying and cheap incompetent subcontractors do you agree that the performance of the site was suffering as a result of poor surveying

00:39:16 surveying um i think it was a mixture of many things that was probably one of them um well it was one of them identified by mr lawrence and i'm i'm asking you whether you agree

00:39:28 whether you agree i think it was one of the reasons yeah how do you account for that how do you account for the fact that there was poor surveying

00:39:35 surveying well his job like we said we just seen the email that uh the client raised um obviously they had they had issues and i think that's what simon's reacted off the back of

00:39:46 the back of um you know we'd had we'd had chats before but it was never raised as being that serious uh it was things we could manage within the team and obviously off the back of this i

00:39:58 and obviously off the back of this i think there's some frustrations have come out within within this email that perhaps might be slightly magnified um to the true problems but it's clearly there was some underlying

00:40:09 clearly there was some underlying frustrations from simon do you agree with mr lawrence uh that the subcontractors were cheap and incompetent um i i

00:40:22 um i i don't believe so no i don't think they were cheap and incompetent i think that's a bit harsh um we had a varied range of subcontractors some were very good some were some were okay and some

00:40:33 some were some were okay and some obviously didn't perform as well i mean that's a

00:40:35 that's a that's a very sweeping statement across a supply chain that we use so we had some very good ones so do you know who didn't perform well and

00:40:47 do you know who didn't perform well and you just said in your answer uh some were okay and some obviously didn't perform as well can you give us some names who you think didn't perform as well as they should have done um on

00:40:59 as well as they should have done um on this particular site yes i don't know we um

00:41:13 [Music]

00:41:19 no one springs to mind i think we had a demolition contractor at the start who uh who took longer than expected uh which caused some frustration but um

00:41:29 other than that no one no one springs to mind on this particular project that they were

00:41:35 they were particularly poor from my memory

00:41:39 in general did you ever have concerns that the pressure on ryden's budget involved the risk that the work done by its subcontractors would be substandard

00:41:52 would be substandard no i think it's down to um down to a project team to make sure it's not substandard i mean they're there to manage that process so

00:42:03 they're there to manage that process so if they don't if they're not happy with it then

00:42:07 it then theory they should be the subcontractors should be doing it again and by project team you mean simon lawrence simon o'connor whoever's on site checking the works yeah and whoever's on site checking the work there's a large site team on rainfall okay

00:42:22 on rainfall okay well mr maynard thank you very much i've come to the end of my questions that i had prepared to ask you this point um there may be others looking back at my notes which i may have to ask but mr chairman i've come to the natural

00:42:33 but mr chairman i've come to the natural end yeah well how long do you think you'd like to sweep up any things that might yes at the moment um let's say 15 minutes but i want to

00:42:44 um let's say 15 minutes but i want to make sure that others who are not in this room

00:42:46 this room yeah yeah have an opportunity to uh consider the evidence and ask proper follow-up questions well i think what i'll say then is that we'll take a break now mr maynard because

00:42:57 because council has to have time just to check that he's covered all the ground that needs to be covered we'll come back at three o'clock would that be all right but that should be fine and if we need more we can let you know that you can let me know yes thank you because so

00:43:08 know yes thank you because so um we'll break now until three o'clock you'd like to go to the usher she'll look after you and since you're still giving evidence

00:43:15 evidence please don't talk to anyone about yourself no problem right yeah thank you very much

00:43:29 good three o'clock then please thank you

01:01:13 good would you ask mr maynard to come back in please

01:01:32 right uh mr billet yes do you have some more questions i have a few mr chairman yes not very many few more questions mr maynard can i ask you to go to your witness statement please and look at paragraph six

01:01:47 and there you say we discussed a little bit of this this morning that you considered the contract with the contracts manager and looked at the subcontractor packages included

01:01:58 subcontractor packages included we then allocated the packages with the assistance of the surveyor who had considered the contracts register my question is um where as part of the exercise you did in that respect

01:02:10 in that respect did you ensure that each subcontractor received that part of the mbs specification which was relevant to the work package that subcontractor was being asked to undertake

01:02:22 was being asked to undertake uh yeah for the for the um packages that i was dealing with myself yes right and which were the packages you were dealing with yourself well obviously you can see i dealt with or i was involved in the um

01:02:34 or i was involved in the um harley package um and they'd received the nbs

01:02:38 the nbs they did today yes you're sure about that yes

01:02:41 that yes okay which other ones um probably just write um and don't forget most of these would have received it as part of the estimating package as well

01:02:53 estimating package as well um

01:02:58 they're the main packages that i dealt with

01:03:04 there was a demolition at the start

01:03:14 the main packages i can remember having a

01:03:18 a an involvement with the actual letting the procurement right and what about the work package that went to um interior of windows sd

01:03:29 um interior of windows sd plastering uh i couldn't guarantee they definitely got sent i wasn't involved in the

01:03:35 the sending out that information

01:03:41 were you ultimately responsible for ensuring within ryden that the right uh subcontractor received the right part of the nbs specification in relation to the relevant work package

01:03:52 in relation to the relevant work package no the sub-contract sorry the surveyors would deal with that themselves and obviously the sign off of any packages of package was done with the contracts manager as well um and then generally they'd have a a

01:04:04 um and then generally they'd have a a pre-start meeting on site uh where they would go through go through that as well to make sure they had the information i see okay um second question did you ever consider

01:04:15 second question did you ever consider yourself a designer within the meaning of the cdm regulations 2007. no no

01:04:23 next question do you remember whether the original tender to the extent that you were involved in it or saw it made any allowance for the costs or fees of a fire safety engineer

01:04:36 of a fire safety engineer i don't remember seeing there as an allowance for that was there ever any discussion after the tender had been won by ryden of making any allowance in the budget for a

01:04:47 making any allowance in the budget for a fire safety engineer i can't remember to be honest did simon lawrence ever come to you and say can we cost having a fire

01:04:58 to you and say can we cost having a fire safety engineer for this project uh generally i wouldn't be involved with cost in that anyway uh when it's to do with fees and stuff um the contracts manager would probably look to a designer or a

01:05:09 probably look to a designer or a consultant discuss it themselves and and get a cost for it and put it forward um for discussion and and sign off so i think the answer to my question is no not to your knowledge no

01:05:20 knowledge no right and then um finally i have a number of questions um about uh about windows um can i ask you to be shown ryd3038276

01:05:34 please

01:05:38 now this is an email

01:05:44 from everglades insulations to you and adam marriott of april 8 2015. adam we've carried out a full survey and material cost for the project

01:05:56 survey and material cost for the project we cannot agree the price is below we have a materials alone a total price of 63

01:06:01 of 63 284 pounds 76 p and you can see um that there's then um labor of 72 000 and overheads of 13 with a total of 148 000 net this really

01:06:13 with a total of 148 000 net this really is the best we can to do we've worked for ryden on many occasions and have always had a good relationship and wish to continue with this

01:06:19 this but we are just not in a position to lower the costs as there is no manufacturing involved just materials and labor

01:06:25 and labor the installers are working at 150 pounds gross per day each man and if you take into account traveling expenses and tax they're not prepared to work for a lower amount

01:06:34 amount and then if you go up to the next email

01:06:39 you go back to everglades this is uh kathy at everglaze um cathy vano i think it is and you say kathy this would represent a huge loss

01:06:51 kathy this would represent a huge loss to ourselves so we would need to look elsewhere for this work thanks zach um how had this situation arisen

01:07:02 um obviously we had a uh sum of money allocated in our tender um for these works um and we then had which i think our

01:07:15 and we then had which i think our estimators priced themselves um which is why on the previous email we listed out how our budget was built up because i think that's how the estimator would build up to get to

01:07:27 the estimator would build up to get to the cost that they allowed in our bid and now we were going out to try and get subcontract costs that fall into line with that like we do with every package

01:07:39 and did this put further pressure on you or ryden generally to put to find savings

01:07:44 savings and not to find savings but just to buy well i guess to find savings in this particular package as in to try and find someone who could do it for the cost that we felt we could do it for right and given the number that was being

01:07:55 and given the number that was being asked for by kathy varno here and given that that would create a as you say a huge loss yep and you need to go elsewhere

01:08:02 elsewhere away from somebody who provided this this work

01:08:05 this work to ryden on many occasions as she had said

01:08:08 said were you not then taking a risk in going elsewhere at a lesser for less money uh put pressure on the quality of the work that you might get from this new subcontractor uh no um for a start everglades did

01:08:22 uh no um for a start everglades did window works for us as opposed to the surrounds um so they're not not someone we used regularly we've used them once before for a window package um and

01:08:34 for a window package um and obviously we had other members of our supply

01:08:37 supply chain who we were comfortable with using uh sd class string being one of them or sdp solutions they called themselves who we looked at their previous cost on an email before for this exact work

01:08:49 email before for this exact work right and they were obviously cheaper than than this subcontractor so again it was a

01:08:54 was a familiar subcontractor who we'd used often that we were comfortable with who was able to provide a a more competitive price right i see um let's just look at how this gun

01:09:04 this gun moved on can we go to ryd3038399 please this is an email of the 9th of april the next day

01:09:16 2 from you to adam marriott copy to simon lawrence and simon o'connor and you say

01:09:21 you say ads can we have another update on the attached please this is the procurement program

01:09:26 program particular concern is obviously the window surrounds with everglades effectively pulling out this is

01:09:33 this is code red priority above all else um how is that issue resolved do you remember well that's how we then uh reverted to talking to sd

01:09:44 uh reverted to talking to sd right solutions um so yeah it was obviously urgent we needed to get it on site uh

01:09:51 site uh the title of the email is grenfell procurement so yeah we were just looking at

01:09:55 at uh order placement and this was one that needed to be placed and we needed to find

01:09:59 find a subcontractor to to do it and what does code red priority mean as in like we need to sort this is a high priority operator you need to place okay is this an item where incorrect estimation had led to further cost

01:10:10 estimation had led to further cost pressure and a reduction in quality um an estimate had been provided that we were struggling to match so um yeah how is it that an estimate had

01:10:21 um yeah how is it that an estimate had been provided that you were struggling to match um i think because uh from a labour point of view it's subjective so you can take a view that someone could do a window surround one man for a day

01:10:35 do a window surround one man for a day and that's what the estimator may have assumed but you have to take into account access issues which a subcontractor is going to price accordingly he's going to say well actually i need to allow a day and a half or two man days to do

01:10:47 a day and a half or two man days to do that um so it's a difference in opinion and

01:10:50 and and that's where the the problem lied i think is that the labour element of it was also a problem as our our view or estimated view of how it much of a cost we were struggling to get to can you account for why

01:11:02 get to can you account for why a pricing a reliable pricing for the windows surrounds was not arrived at with a sub-contractor at a point earlier than april 2015 um again is order of priorities uh

01:11:16 um again is order of priorities uh there are other orders that need to be placed to maintain the the construction program um so that's what we're being worked on um and then

01:11:26 then yeah quite often in a lot of projects you get to a point where there are orders that need to be placed urgently for a number of reasons is this is it right that this one got overlooked until quite late on

01:11:38 overlooked until quite late on uh i wouldn't say it necessarily got overlooked i just think that we expected to be able to get it done

01:11:45 it done straightforward and quite easy to procure it and suddenly it became an issue that we weren't expecting because we couldn't get it to the cost that

01:11:53 that our estimator allowed so all right so not overlooked but put on the back burner or middle burner yeah perhaps yeah i see thank you

01:12:05 i see thank you well mr maynard i've come to the end of my questions it just remains for me to thank you very much for coming to give your evidence i'm very grateful mr chairman i have no further questions for this witness good thank you very much well

01:12:15 much well we are certainly very grateful mr maynard to you for coming to give your evidence

01:12:19 evidence it's very helpful to hear what you have to tell us and thank you very much indeed

01:12:23 indeed and now you're free to go very much thank you very much thank you we'd like to go with the usher

01:12:42 thank you mr millet and that's it for the day that's it for the day and uh barring anything unforeseen those are the riding witnesses and we start tomorrow with mr ray bailey of holly

01:12:53 holly thank you very much indeed well 10 o'clock tomorrow then please thank you very much

01:14:11 you