Zak Maynard, senior surveyor at Rydon, gives evidence revealing how Rydon withheld hundreds of thousands of pounds in cladding savings from the TMO client while presenting lower figures to meet budget targets.
00:01:14 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to continue hearing evidence from witnesses who were working for ryden at the time of the refurbishment yes mr bennett good morning mr chairman
00:01:26 yes mr bennett good morning mr chairman uh we are i'm going to call mr zach maynard now please thank you
00:01:45 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr maynard you'd like to sit down make yourself
00:01:56 you'd like to sit down make yourself comfortable
00:02:03 yes mr millett mr chairman good morning mr maynard can i start by thanking you very much for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely grateful to you
00:02:14 we're extremely grateful to you just a couple of preliminary points if you have any difficulty hearing or understanding any of my questions please just ask me to repeat them
00:02:22 them and i'll do that or i'll put the question in a different way also if you could keep your voice up so that the transcriber who's sitting to your right can get down everything you say that
00:02:33 can get down everything you say that would be extremely helpful and if you need a break at any point please just indicate and we can take a short break you've made one statement dated the 30th of august 2019
00:02:44 of august 2019 can i please have that shown to you it appears on your screen in front of you as ryd3094346
00:02:56 as ryd3094346 and it's also in a hard copy in the file on the desk in front of you as well if you need to look at the paper version can i ask you to go to page three in that statement please
00:03:09 and you'll see a signature uh there is that your signature yes have you read this statement recently yes can you confirm that its contents are true yes
00:03:19 true yes now as well as your personal witness statement that mr maynard there is also a statement given by ryden as a company and i'd just like you to look at that with me for a moment if you would it's ryd
00:03:31 ryd three zeros nine four two three six
00:03:38 uh do you recognize this document or have you seen it before do you think uh this is the first page of it it's a very long document i don't think so you don't think so don't call that do you remember whether you were
00:03:50 that do you remember whether you were ever asked to make any contribution to a company statement to be given to the inquiry
00:03:58 um let's start with a document ryd3094244 please
00:04:06 this is ryden's tender pack submitted for the grenfell tower project dated the 13th of february 2014. um is this a document just looking at
00:04:17 um is this a document just looking at its first page that you contributed to or have seen before i've seen it you've seen it did you contribute to it it's being put together do you think minimally if at all
00:04:30 um can i ask you to look at page 35
00:04:36 this is a copy of your cv or a part of this document which contains your cv yes just having a look at that and refreshing your memory of it do you
00:04:47 refreshing your memory of it do you remember whether you wrote that um i would have had an involvement in creating it it was a standard uh cv that got put into our tender submissions
00:05:00 that got put into our tender submissions right
00:05:00 right um so it wasn't specific to this tender right
00:05:04 right you say uh you would have had an involvement in creating it yeah does that mean that before it went into
00:05:11 into this tender submission you approved it as accurate uh no it would have been done previously to this tender submission um right as a document i'd have had input into and created
00:05:23 input into and created and therefore it can be inserted into any tender submission that we did i see do you remember and i know it was a long time ago bearing in mind that the date of this document was february 2014
00:05:35 document was february 2014 how long before february 2014 was your last involvement in this cv i don't know now um can we look at
00:05:46 i don't know now um can we look at top top right hand corner where it says position within the team managing surveyor yeah so and before i ask you these questions just so i understand it this was a one-size-fits-all cv for any
00:05:58 one-size-fits-all cv for any any project was it yeah the bulk of it was yeah and then it might be tailored for the relevant project experience to suit right that takes me to another question
00:06:09 right that takes me to another question do you remember whether this cv was tailored to the grenfell tower project in any way to suit i don't know right um and if you think in any respect it was as we go through this doc
00:06:20 this doc this part of this document please tell me okay um now it shows you there is managing surveyor yeah that was a role that you had generally in
00:06:29 in in ryden at the time was it at time yes okay uh and that was your role in respect of the grenfell tower project as of may 2014 i think wasn't it
00:06:41 2014 i think wasn't it correct yes and that was before your promotion to commercial manager was it correct
00:06:46 correct now if you look at the second paragraph on the left hand side it says that you were currently under profile currently he is overseeing a number of refurbishment schemes which
00:06:57 a number of refurbishment schemes which involve
00:06:57 involve ppc 2000 nec3 and jct miner works construction forms ranging from 500 000 pounds to 10 million pounds in value was any of those projects an
00:07:09 was any of those projects an overcladding project uh yes which ones we did overcladding in camden uh and we did an overcladding
00:07:20 in camden uh and we did an overcladding project
00:07:21 project in ferrier point um right and now it says currently he is overseeing a number of refurbishment schemes
00:07:30 schemes as at february 2013 uh 14 when this document was presented to the tmo so the word focusing on the word
00:07:39 word currently which of those projects identified there that it describes you as overseeing was an overcladding project uh sorry what in the relevant project
00:07:50 uh sorry what in the relevant project experience beneath it or under profile yeah just in the general bit at the top yes none of them there was no at that time there was no current overcladding works right
00:08:02 overcladding works right okay now if you look on the right hand side under role within the team it says zack's role is to oversee all aspects of financial control and reporting on all projects
00:08:14 reporting on all projects delivered by the refurbishment team do you agree
00:08:17 you agree with that summary of your role so far as it pertains to the grenfell tower project
00:08:23 project um yes carrying on with that it says that you
00:08:28 that you manage a team of surveyors and responsibilities include procurement resource procurement measurement of works monthly valuations and payment to subcontractors
00:08:40 subcontractors with reference to the project budget producing cash flow forecasts for clients
00:08:45 clients and for internal reporting costing project variations and providing alternatives advising the team on budgetary allowances and reporting internally by way of cost stroke
00:08:55 stroke value reconciliations i've read that all to you
00:08:59 to you i just want to break it down if i can start with the managing of a team of surveyors as at february 2014 how many surveyors were you managing
00:09:25 uh i think perhaps five or six right were they all professionally qualified
00:09:31 qualified uh no was any of them professionally qualified
00:09:36 qualified uh by professionally qualified if you mean rics then no um we had a few that had uh started out their hmc
00:09:47 uh started out their hmc [Music]
00:09:49 [Music] i don't think there was any other degree qualified
00:09:52 qualified uh members of the team right when it says that you manage a team of surveyors can you give us an idea brief idea of what it is you would do to manage
00:10:03 manage those surveyors um i guess i'd i'd mentor them in a way that um if they had any any issues um with uh their procurement i i'd try and
00:10:16 with uh their procurement i i'd try and help them through that i would i would check things for them if they came to me with with certain things if we had resource issues i'd try and
00:10:28 if we had resource issues i'd try and raise it
00:10:29 raise it with my management and see if there's anything we could do to help [Music]
00:10:35 [Music] those kind of roles really yes did you have regular meetings with your surveyors
00:10:39 surveyors uh we we had regular team meetings um we had regular team meetings with um as a whole team um as well as some team meetings just
00:10:50 um as well as some team meetings just with the surveyors yeah there's some updates yeah what do you say the whole team you mean the whole project team uh the whole refurbishment team yes the whole refurbishment project team um let me just be clear did you have
00:11:01 um let me just be clear did you have regular meetings with the surveyors team you were managing yes you did how regular
00:11:08 we all sat very close together so it wasn't necessarily always a formal meeting will be a formal meeting it might have been once a month perhaps
00:11:19 once a month perhaps now mr lawrence was the contract manager on the grenfell tower project and we've heard from him and he had significant day-to-day involvement in the management of the grenfell tower project
00:11:31 project i say that would you agree with that yes yeah and he was your line manager was he uh he wasn't my line manager um he was responsible for this project my line manager would be into steve
00:11:43 my line manager would be into steve blake
00:11:44 blake i see did you receive instructions from simon lawrence or report to him in any respect in respect of the granville tower yes obviously if we
00:11:55 tower yes obviously if we anything financial or report that we produced
00:11:58 produced we would issue it to simon to ensure he was okay with it as a contracts manager right um so yeah okay so on on financial matters yes i see any other matters
00:12:10 other matters uh well no generally i was only involved really in financial matters so right okay how did you generally communicate with him was it by telephone or
00:12:19 or or email quite often it was email um could be could be telephone but more than often not the email was the choice of
00:12:27 of contact yeah were you sitting in the same office as him no i was office based in forest road um he was more site-based yes that was his project
00:12:38 project do you know can you tell us what systems existed in place as at the first part of 2014 at least to ensure that all the relevant knowledge about the project was shared
00:12:50 knowledge about the project was shared between your team of surveyors and you managing them on the one hand and the wider team including mr lawrence on the other um with regards to there'd be a project
00:13:01 um with regards to there'd be a project hand-over meeting at start where the pre-construction team would try and hand over the information that they knew
00:13:10 they knew to the production team um so that then they could hopefully take it on on board and run with the job smoothly yes and how did the role of project manager so not contracts manager
00:13:21 project manager so not contracts manager but project manager how did that fit into that structure can you help us uh yeah so the project manager reported to the contract manager i see did you or your team receive instructions
00:13:32 instructions from the project manager or report to to him
00:13:35 him uh yeah that's probably the project surveyor would um would liaise with the project manager but it would then generally be the contract manager that would obviously adjudicate between the two and make the
00:13:46 adjudicate between the two and make the decision um but if a project manager needed something on-site to be ordered then the the job surveyor would do that for him yes i follow and was that again in relation to financial matters
00:13:57 again in relation to financial matters as far as you were concerned yes i see now um you say that stephen blake was your
00:14:03 was your line manager what on the grenfell tower project what uh involvement did he have on a day-to-day basis um as far as you went as far as i was
00:14:14 um as far as you went as far as i was concerned
00:14:15 concerned um i would obviously report to him um on any of the financial indications or any any financial advice of how the job was going um
00:14:29 advice of how the job was going um so it would be that sort of day-to-day involvement again he's sat not far away from the office so it'll be general catch-ups every day um how things progression cash in cash
00:14:40 um how things progression cash in cash out
00:14:41 out right it was obviously quite often it was more global discussions because i wasn't just focused on grenfell tower um i was
00:14:48 um i was across all six seven live projects that we currently had um so although grenfell would be part of that discussion it would be also about all the other jobs i see so it was your
00:15:00 it was your reporting too and taking instructions from mr blake on the grenfell tower project typical of the way you two worked together on the other projects you were working on at the time yeah i'd say so yeah now just um looking down at the list of
00:15:12 now just um looking down at the list of things for which you were responsible um you can see about three quarters of the way down that column under role within the team it says costing project variations and
00:15:23 it says costing project variations and providing alternatives now just on costing project variations if we can just focus on that did that involve assessing the financial implications of changes to projects such as decisions to
00:15:35 changes to projects such as decisions to change what material was to be used um you'd be involved in that yeah
00:15:40 that yeah um yes you would you'd be involved in the financial indications of it for someone to make a decision yeah and what about providing alternatives does that tell us that you on this project grenfell were
00:15:51 on this project grenfell were responsible for suggesting alternative products for youth on a project uh no we would be heavily heavily reliant on our supply chain so our supply chain and subcontractors
00:16:03 so our supply chain and subcontractors would quite often uh review and come up with potential alternatives for the design team to to approve i see
00:16:15 and and advising the team on budgetary allowances you'll see that's the next yep item in that list does that tell us that it was your role at least so far as the grenfell tower project was concerned
00:16:26 project was concerned to to make sure that ryden was working to budget
00:16:30 to budget it would be to advise where we are at current stage against that budget so then people can make informed decisions of what they want to do right and that meant that it ensuring that ryden was aware of what it could
00:16:42 that ryden was aware of what it could afford and couldn't afford working within the budget that it was um it had been given by the client right it'd be regular reporting against the original
00:16:51 original tender submission and how regular uh we'd do it monthly we would we would update our forecasts as part of that process
00:17:02 as part of that process we'd review each job that we had right and you say we would we would update the forecast monthly who would be responsible for the updating of the forecast uh
00:17:13 for the updating of the forecast uh normally the project surveyor would update their uh a cvr and then that would then feed into me and then i'd look at it globally
00:17:24 i'd look at it globally with all the other projects and then create a spreadsheet that i submitted to steve
00:17:29 steve for them him to review um and give further direction yes just getting back to an answer you gave me a moment ago about suggesting alternative materials you said that you were heavily reliant on your supply
00:17:40 were heavily reliant on your supply chain partner um or subcontractor when you say heavily do you mean there was some role for you in making those suggestions or were you completely
00:17:52 those suggestions or were you completely reliant on them uh to be honest most of the time we'd be very reliant on subcontractors to review a specification and advise us being specialists in their individual trades um we would quite often rely on them to
00:18:03 um we would quite often rely on them to come up with those alternatives right i'm not sure that quite answers my question it may seem pedantic but there's a bit of a difference between completely reliant
00:18:12 reliant and heavily reliant yeah and did you essentially just go with what they said no we would ask them to come up with a potential alternative as a way of
00:18:23 potential alternative as a way of offering some kind of ve and then we would
00:18:27 would look at that put that forward for adjudication and see if any of them were viable and then we'd put them towards a design team so okay so heavily but not completely i'd say yeah unless you had previous experience from another scheme
00:18:38 from another scheme of something that changed it works i see now can we go back to your statement and i'd like you to look please with me at paragraph five on page one you say there uh i was not
00:18:51 on page one you say there uh i was not involved at the start of the tender process
00:18:53 process i became involved at the start of the project after the contract had been awarded
00:18:57 awarded my role at this time was more client-facing the client was kensington and chelsea management organization the client now the cv said that your role was to oversee all aspects of financial control and we looked at that
00:19:10 financial control and we looked at that in the light of the statement in paragraph five there is it fair to say that your role was to do that but also to be the liaison with the client on the issues that you've identified
00:19:24 on the issues that you've identified um sorry
00:19:27 um sorry the the project surveyor and the contracts manager generally be client liaison yes um contracts manager more often not be direct liaison with a client
00:19:38 client um i wasn't always direct directly liaising with a client it would feed through one sort of single point so quite often it would be the contract manager that dealt with the client
00:19:49 with the client well can you just help us understand what you mean when you say my role at this time was more client-facing what does yeah facing mean i suggest there's a client and then there's a client's employer's agent so
00:20:00 there's a client's employer's agent so i would be involved with otilia on a cost side of things but generally with regards to managing the the overall client uh that would be through the contracts
00:20:12 uh that would be through the contracts match i see and who was it at artelia who was your primary point of contact uh at the time it would be tweet chen yes now can i ask you to look at paragraph six you say i was aware
00:20:24 six you say i was aware that ryden was selected as the preferred contractor after the tender process had been brought to a conclusion i considered the contract with the contracts manager had looked at the subcontractor packages included
00:20:35 subcontractor packages included we then allocated the packages with the assistance of the surveyor who had considered the contractors register
00:20:42 register when exactly to the best of your recollection did you become involved with this project the grenfell tower project
00:20:48 project um well obviously the tender submission had gone in um and then we would have we would have been given notice of when we were the preferred contractor so it
00:20:59 we were the preferred contractor so it was going our way so as soon as it's become
00:21:02 become evident or it was going to be a live project then i'd start to get more involved
00:21:07 involved okay when you say you say in paragraph 6 that you became involved
00:21:14 after the tender process well it says what it says but it says you were aware that ryden was selected as the preferred contractor after the tender process had been brought to a conclusion
00:21:25 conclusion i just want to be clear are you saying that you weren't involved in the tender process
00:21:29 process at all from my recollection i was barely barely involved in the tender process barely involved okay
00:21:40 were you involved in the project at any earlier time than the tender internally at least within ryden do you remember
00:21:48 remember not from my memory no right now you say i considered the contract does that mean that you studied the draft jct
00:21:57 draft jct form contract to be entered with the tmo no
00:22:00 no we had a legal team that did that right well when you say um i considered the contract with the contracts manager what did you do the contract being the actual work content um
00:22:12 actual work content um we'd review the work content and the packages involved and then start to look at
00:22:17 at the the order process and the procurement i see so when you say contract you really mean job yeah yeah in reality does that tell
00:22:28 job yeah yeah in reality does that tell us that you didn't become familiar with the
00:22:30 the the written terms of the legal contract uh draft i'd i'd start to get um with regards to the employer's requirements and the drawings um but our legal team um
00:22:41 um but our legal team um would review the the actual main contract
00:22:45 contract um and they'd be in charge of that and then if we had a query on that we'd generally revert to them did you have any
00:22:53 any role in discussing the terms of the contract with the legal team that wasn't my role did you have any role in discussing the terms of the legal contract with anybody else in the project team uh no again
00:23:05 in the project team uh no again did you just did you discuss any of the terms in draft form prior to prior to the conclusion of the contract in october 2014 with anybody in the team no it wasn't part of my wrong right did you ever get a chance to read
00:23:17 you ever get a chance to read or study any parts of the contract before it was signed uh i didn't no um let's then turn to the topic of your early involvement um having done some general questions on
00:23:30 um having done some general questions on that can i ask you to look please first ryd four zeros one two zero 1203 at page four
00:23:41 this is an email from robert powell at apple yards who then became artelia to steve blake on the 5th of april 2013 note the year and it detaches a suite of
00:23:54 note the year and it detaches a suite of drawings
00:23:54 drawings and the stage d the report for this project
00:23:58 project and in his email mr powell says steve good talking with you now perhaps you would have a look at the attached supporting information for the proposed redevelopment of grenfell tower rb
00:24:08 rb k and c if you would be prepared to venture a price check against this it would help us recognizing that we need to agree a usable framework straight means of procurement with rbk and c as mentioned we are
00:24:19 with rbk and c as mentioned we are talking to more than one contractor in consideration of such appointment but our client is looking to utilize their existing frameworks to procure same i'll send a separate email shortly to connect you with my
00:24:30 email shortly to connect you with my contact
00:24:31 contact keith rule and now if we go to page three please up and look at the bottom steve blake responds
00:24:39 responds to robert powell on the ninth of april four days later uh in an email that's copied to you you see that
00:24:46 see that yep and he says uh hi robert has promised and then if you look at the third paragraph he says in addition i've copied in alan sharrick's who is contracts manager knows a lot
00:24:57 who is contracts manager knows a lot more about tower blocks than i do and our managing surveyor zach maynard who will be able to provide budget advice
00:25:04 advice and then i'm just going to trace this through with you if i can if you look a little bit higher up page three mr powell responds to that email uh steve many thanks and this is also
00:25:15 uh steve many thanks and this is also copied to you do you see that yep and he says many thanks i'm having a grenfell tower day tomorrow with our team in london is there any chance we might get some costs feedback against the schedule and drawings i sent
00:25:27 drawings i sent to you to discuss at our meeting perhaps let me know when we could expect same if tomorrow is too big an ask and then if we look at page two mr blake responds later that day and says that's too soon
00:25:39 says that's too soon again copy to you a bit soon bit too soon for tomorrow but would be happy to meet to understand scope of works and budget and then at the top of page two mr powell comes back to mr blake not copy
00:25:50 powell comes back to mr blake not copy to you
00:25:51 to you uh same day and says happy in the second line happy to have a phone conversation with whoever needs to know from your perspective in the hope that we can get some quick and dirty costings on the interface i've sent you
00:26:02 interface i've sent you and then bottom of page one please mr blake then puts him in touch with you if we see that there he says to robert powell and again copy to you this time 10th of april rob
00:26:13 this time 10th of april rob unfortunately i'm going to leave today and in any event it would be too big and asked to cost such a scheme today buy a copy of email i will let alan and zach
00:26:21 zach know that's you we will help as much as we can
00:26:24 we can and again as i say you you were copied in on this now i've shown you all of that
00:26:28 that exchange or most of it because there's a final email from robert powell a copy to you on the same day no worries i wasn't expecting prices back today but we did you recall this email
00:26:39 but we did you recall this email exchange no was it common for ryden to provide quick and dirty information uh as was asked for by way of a price check
00:26:49 check you could get requests for that to give some budget square prices and things right what did quick and dirty mean to you do you remember uh it would just be like a budget a high level budget high level did you provide any quotes
00:27:02 high level did you provide any quotes quick and dirty costings quite unquote do you remember not for my recollection though do you remember whether you spoke to mr powell by telephone as he'd suggested i don't can i ask you to look at
00:27:14 i don't can i ask you to look at ryd401193
00:27:18 and look at page one um this is the continuation of this email chain
00:27:26 chain um in the middle email on that page this is an email from steve blake to alan sharrick's and you something 10th of april something dodgy going on here with incumbent contractor
00:27:37 going on here with incumbent contractor if either get chance could you make contact thanks um do you remember seeing that email at the time does this trigger a recollection no do you remember what you do
00:27:49 do you remember what you do what did what you understood mr blake to mean by
00:27:52 mean by something dodgy going on here with the incumbent contractor uh probably that he can only be assuming that there's a there's obviously he's by the way he's put an incumbent contractor obviously someone's on site
00:28:05 contractor obviously someone's on site at the moment or someone's on board at the moment and it's it's not going to be continuing with them
00:28:12 with them um he's obviously asked mia allen to make contact i don't remember right me personally making i mean what you're telling us is you reading this email now this doesn't trigger a recollection no right okay well i'd like to try to get
00:28:23 right okay well i'd like to try to get to your recollection at the time so yeah um let's try and stick with that at the top of the page mr sharrick then responds to you and says zack if it's financial they're looking for
00:28:34 if it's financial they're looking for you better call them mate some maybe some typical square meter cost for rain screen and double glazing will suffice i've looked at the scheme funding up and it's a 9.4 million pot for the whole grenfell tower regen 6 million from
00:28:46 grenfell tower regen 6 million from council and 3.4 million from the tmo reading what's on the internet it's a political nightmare there's a website dedicated to complaining about phase one and the scheme in general it looks like they've been forced into doing something
00:28:57 they've been forced into doing something with the tower do you remember whether you called apple yards as mr sharrocks had suggested i don't i don't remember you don't do you remember whether you wrote to them made any contact of any kind no i don't
00:29:10 made any contact of any kind no i don't i
00:29:10 i honestly don't remember that okay now i'm showing you this you obviously don't remember anything about it this was 10 months before ryden's formal submission and 11 months
00:29:22 ryden's formal submission and 11 months before ryden was notified that it was the preferred bidder in the march of 2014
00:29:28 2014 having my shown you this run of material now when you say a paragraph five of your statement that you were involved at the start of the project after the contract was awarded yep
00:29:39 contract was awarded yep that's not right is it uh well well it is because um i'm not sure how much i got involved in that
00:29:47 in that and if it was a budget cost it would it could have been just a meter squared rate
00:29:50 rate um i wouldn't i wasn't involved in the actual tender bid and creating and forming of that tender bid so um that's that's what i'm saying there okay that's not
00:30:01 okay that's not part of the tender bid right i mean you don't you don't refer to this early involvement in 2013 anywhere in your statement and i just i don't know why that was i don't remember it all right
00:30:13 remember it all right now let's turn to the topic of the selection of contractors i'd like to ask you about ryden's process for the selection of subcontractors for the grenfell project can we look at simon o'connor's witness statement first of all that's at ryd
00:30:25 statement first of all that's at ryd 30 is 94221 at page six please and i'd like you to look with me at paragraph 13 which runs over the page
00:30:36 at paragraph 13 which runs over the page to page seven and he says um at the bottom of the page i believe
00:30:42 i believe or i believed that the specialist contractor subcontractors engaged by ryden
00:30:47 ryden who designed you can just turn over the page
00:30:51 page who designed the works would have been selected for the project from an approved list by ryden my understanding was that the subcontractors had to be vetted first before being added to the approved
00:31:02 before being added to the approved subcontractor list although the selection of subcontractors for grenfell would have happened at the tender stroke award stage and before i was involved now just pausing there we the inquiry
00:31:13 now just pausing there we the inquiry haven't been able to locate a copy of any approved list of subcontractors which were used by ryden at this time do you remember whether there was such a document
00:31:24 document um i know we were we had some subcontractor questionnaire forms that were filled in by subcontractors there was a finance element and there was a health and safety element
00:31:35 was a health and safety element the form would go off to health and safety and the form would go off to accounts for the relevant bits for approval
00:31:43 approval and i believe at the time there was an issue with actually formulating it into a database uh and i do remember there was issues with creating this subcontract database so
00:31:54 creating this subcontract database so there was one place that you could go and get
00:31:56 and get the list of subcontractors was that sorry you say there was there was one no there wasn't a place where you could get it or there was no
00:32:07 where you could get it or there was no they were in the process of forming a database at the time i remember that i see when you say at the time you mean at the time of the tender or yeah around that time um okay so does that tell us that if in relation
00:32:19 so does that tell us that if in relation to the grenfell tower project you wanted to know
00:32:21 to know who was on the approved list of subcontractors there wasn't a single place you could you could go uh generally you would either i think call
00:32:30 call someone in health and safety uh to confirm whether they had a vetting form done um you could call accounts to see if they'd had all their information
00:32:41 see if they'd had all their information and also obviously if we previously used a subcontractor then obviously you'd know that they'd had that vetting form done previously how regularly
00:32:53 done previously how regularly to your recollection were those um vetting forms updated in relation to subcontractors used in the past
00:33:04 i'm not sure i mean would it be the case that if you'd used a subcontractor three years previously you wouldn't need to uh refresh the information you had about them or would you um arguably you should well after three
00:33:17 um arguably you should well after three years did you but i i don't remember being
00:33:22 right
00:33:26 now we had asked mr o'connor when he came to give evidence in july whether he personally checked whether any of the subcontractors used on the grenfell tower project were on the approved list and he said
00:33:37 were on the approved list and he said that he didn't but he also said that that would have been done by the surveyor and he mentioned your name yeah on this project do you remember whether you did check
00:33:46 check the approved list or the approved information at least prior to sending tender requests to subcontractors or prior to appointing them um we would have
00:33:56 have uh if we were using a regular like js wright who's been mentioned in there or harley's
00:34:02 harley's then we would know that they're approved because we've used them previously so therefore we wouldn't need to check um
00:34:10 um and if we were looking at a new subcontractor then yeah before we appointed them we could we should get the subcontractor questionnaire filled out and returned right before we appoint
00:34:21 and returned right before we appoint them um
00:34:23 them um do you remember how well let me just push the question a bit harder actually did you yourself personally as mr o'connor has suggested actually check a list or lists
00:34:35 actually check a list or lists of subcontractors before appointments were made
00:34:39 were made um i would have done um for certain subcontractors that were new right that i hadn't heard of i would have known that they're not on our database so we would have sent them out
00:34:49 out for them i see and do can you sitting here remember who they were or some of them
00:34:54 them no so far as harley were concerned yeah they were subcontractors that we know
00:35:01 know that ryden had used before on previous projects
00:35:05 projects what was the most recent project that ryden had used harley uh on prior to february 2013 that would have been ferrier point
00:35:18 that would have been ferrier point um which i think finished in 2011 or 2012 right yes so one or two years before grenfell
00:35:29 yes so one or two years before grenfell yeah
00:35:30 yeah yeah and did were any systems in place to update
00:35:35 to update the information about harley financial or health and safety given that one or two years had elapsed since that previous project with them generally
00:35:46 previous project with them generally um it would only get flagged by account by account by the at the time because if they'd had insurance details etc need to be sent to accounts
00:35:58 etc need to be sent to accounts uh to to pay them um so that would have been the flag at that point that we can't pay them because we don't have the insurance details so then that would have been the flag that they needed updated right and was it do you remember with
00:36:09 right and was it do you remember with harley i don't remember what about j.s wright when was the last project you had with them
00:36:14 with them um
00:36:17 i can't remember jace right um
00:36:24 i think they might have been involved in the ashmole estate project from memory okay all right um
00:36:33 now in mr o'connor's statement um which i think we still got on the screen yeah he says the subcontractors had to be vetted
00:36:42 be vetted first um before being added to the approved list it is he right about that yeah if they were new subcontractors then yes if they were new subcontractors sub-contract
00:36:54 sub-contract what did that vetting process involve um can you help yes it was like what i said before there was a there was a um a questionnaire form um that was filled in
00:37:05 filled in health and safety questions and finance questions
00:37:09 questions the subcontractors would fill that in uh it would get returned via a project surveyor and then they would afford it to the health and safety department to run through and then the health and safety department would be a's direct
00:37:20 safety department would be a's direct with the subcontractor to run through any queries and the accounts section would then go off to uh the accounts department for them to do something similar right in respect of any particular
00:37:31 right in respect of any particular project who was the ultimate decision maker
00:37:35 maker who would decide whether or not that subcontractor should be added to the list
00:37:39 list well they had to go through health and safety and get ticked off from that perspective yes and then they would have to get signed off by accounts and provided they tick both those boxes they would genuinely go on the
00:37:50 the approved list i see so it was those departments who made the decisions and then it would go onto the list and then they'd be on the list yeah right so it was was the decision whether to add someone to the list made at any higher level um outside those
00:38:02 at any higher level um outside those departments by for example the refurbishment director in respect to the particular project
00:38:07 project um well if they if they didn't approve it didn't pass the health and safety requirements for our health and safety department i would have thought so right i see can we look then at the process
00:38:18 we look then at the process uh of tender and procurement can i ask you first please to turn to or be shown miss bachelor's is it it's bachelia isn't it actually i think i was told i think that's right yeah um her witness statement it's ryd
00:38:32 yeah um her witness statement it's ryd 30 is 94347 at page 2 please and i'd like to look at paragraph 13. she says there the subcontractors would
00:38:44 she says there the subcontractors would usually be provided with three to four weeks to price the job however the tender period this is for grenfell the tender period fell over christmas which caused a delay i recall that an extension to submit the
00:38:55 i recall that an extension to submit the tender was requested and obtained this provided the subcontractors with further time in which to provide their quotes
00:39:01 quotes i did not recall there being any other timing issue or issues or issues with the tender do you agree with that
00:39:21 uh to the best of my knowledge yep yes um can i ask you then to look at
00:39:29 ryd3086624 which is part of an email chain in in january 2014 and if we look at the second email down uh on that page this is katie barcelli
00:39:41 uh on that page this is katie barcelli a2
00:39:42 a2 steve blake and you among others including simon lawrence on the 6th of january 2014 and she says fyi just had a discussion with terence from js wright
00:39:53 with terence from js wright he's going to struggle to return a tender for the grenfell towers he snowed under with inquiries from construction i've given him some extra time and he said he will see what he can do but annoying
00:40:04 annoying that we seem to have been overlooked i did speak to paul featherstone when they tender first came into the office so he was aware of it mid-december was this an example of the timing issues mr shelley a is describing in her
00:40:15 mr shelley a is describing in her witness statement do you think potentially i mean it's a difficult time
00:40:26 potentially i mean it's a difficult time of year for people to be pricing things up with a christmas break so um yeah that is potential to be an issue there and obviously clearly they're they're a subcontractor that ryden's
00:40:38 they're a subcontractor that ryden's used quite a lot across the whole group js right um and yeah she's mentioning inquiries from construction she means they've been getting inquiries from riding construction as well
00:40:50 construction as well so they're looking at them um if you look at the top of the page um steve blake sends this email on to paul featherston at jsrite and says hi paul can this be reviewed in my view grenfell is the best
00:41:02 in my view grenfell is the best opportunity that ryden um was it your view at the time that grenfell was the best opportunity that ryden have
00:41:13 that ryden have um i'm not entirely sure um i don't remember having an opinion about
00:41:21 about how good an opportunity it was at that stage it was just a tender um i wasn't aware of how good an opportunity it was at that stage did mr blake have
00:41:32 stage did mr blake have and you have any discussion about that the quality or value of the opportunity that the grenfell tower project presented uh probably the value um it was it was a large size project
00:41:43 um it was it was a large size project so perhaps it means by that best opportunity and it's a good size project um given the opinion that mr blake
00:41:54 um given the opinion that mr blake expresses here to mr featherston did you did he feel under pressure to to win this tender particular pressure to win it
00:42:03 to win it did we yeah as in ryden as in right um there was there was probably pressure to on every tender um it was there was always turnover it was always a key thing
00:42:14 always a key thing uh to toronto in work so um yeah i imagine there was pressure i imagine there are pressures on every tender but given that mr blake said that this was the best opportunity that ryden
00:42:25 this was the best opportunity that ryden have
00:42:26 have my question is whether you felt that winning the tender was particularly pressurizing well well i don't i wasn't involved in the tennis i don't know i didn't feel
00:42:37 the tennis i don't know i didn't feel any
00:42:37 any pressure in regards to it all right now if we go to
00:42:43 nine four ryd401946 page two please
00:42:47 this is an email of the eighth of january 2014 from katy perchelier to simon lawrence copy to frank smith subject grenfell um
00:42:59 not seen by well you weren't copied in on this and she says peter arnold has requested an extension of time can you double check with him what the outcome was please do you remember what peter arnold's role was
00:43:11 remember what peter arnold's role was in the tender process i believe he was business development
00:43:20 and bid writing that side of things yeah and if you look at page one and look at the middle of the page
00:43:31 uh mr lawrence says there back to um katie barcelia you're not copied on this
00:43:40 this i've bumped into peter this morning apparently peter blythe from artelia was going to discuss with the client tomorrow at a meeting so hopefully we will hear something friday or monday at the latest and then at the top of the page katie
00:43:51 and then at the top of the page katie barcelli back to simon lawrence also on the 8th of january and again not copied to you so you didn't see this at the time
00:44:00 the time okay we have a massive problem if not she says i wanted to speak to peter blythe but peter ronald beat me to it as you can imagine it's a massive measurement job for one person to undertake
00:44:10 undertake and uh sue estimates that she needs until the end of next week to finish the bill
00:44:15 bill that obviously leaves us with a massive problem in terms of getting it out for pricing
00:44:20 pricing just help me who was sue uh she did the measurement in the estimating team right and then she goes on um she goes on if you have any time it may be worth speaking to peter blythe
00:44:32 it may be worth speaking to peter blythe to explain that we may be able to unable to return a tender if we don't get the extension he could then mention that to the client also i don't know how long was asked for but we need two weeks uh
00:44:45 two weeks uh just pausing there and we can see that you weren't copied in on these emails but is it fair to say that this timing issue appeared to be quite a significant threat to ryden at this stage uh
00:44:58 to ryden at this stage uh to complete the tender he appears that way yeah yes and she said it was a massive problem and was that because ryden might be unable to return a tender at all yeah and in those circumstances where your
00:45:10 and in those circumstances where your director had said that the project was the best opportunity that ryden had um did that put you under significant pressure
00:45:18 pressure i would have put the estimating team under a bit of pressure right okay but not you personally no right now let's look at the final paragraph of mr shelly's email she says perhaps we could also cite the fact that
00:45:29 perhaps we could also cite the fact that we are struggling to drum up any interest from cladding contractors do you remember that do you remember that there was difficulty drumming up interest from cloud and contractors in relation to
00:45:40 cloud and contractors in relation to this project i think as a as a company um we'd only used harley's um therefore our cladding database uh or knowledge of subcontractors was probably limited
00:45:52 subcontractors was probably limited um and that probably restricted us in in that
00:45:56 that in that part of the tender right do you know whether other cladding contractors other than harley were approached in relation to this
00:46:09 were approached in relation to this project
00:46:10 project i believe others were approached do you know who they were no there's a suggests that others were approached but they weren't interested is that does that we could get that on a
00:46:21 is that does that we could get that on a lot of projects a lot of people aren't necessarily um keen on pricing jobs when they're just not a live job or a firm
00:46:30 a firm right project so quite often i think the estimator has come up against that battle
00:46:36 battle do you remember what specific difficulties there were drumming up interests from cladding contractors other than harley i'm not aware of any specimen
00:46:56 i'm not aware of any specimen so in addition to the christmas break is it fair to say that there was also a problem
00:47:00 problem finding cladding contractors other than harley who were interested in doing the job and that was causing difficulties with the tender submission oh i believe so yeah right can we then look at the
00:47:11 look at the harley 2013 budget different topic first of all let's look at sea402275 please
00:47:22 now this is a budget created by harley dated the 18th of october 2013. now just to set this in its chronological context
00:47:33 chronological context this is about a month or two about six weeks actually before the tender package went out to um to contractors okay
00:47:46 to um to contractors okay uh and it was created as we see by harley on the 18th of october now you told us i think that you only became involved after the tender process
00:47:57 became involved after the tender process had been completed um do you think you ever saw this document
00:48:04 i honestly don't know no does it trigger any recollection at all um it's difficult to say because he said it's a familiar sort of looking document so
00:48:14 so um
00:48:17 you said it's a familiar looking document that's in the way it's set out and the way it's put together so familiar as in highly familiar or familiar
00:48:25 familiar as in any subcontractor yeah just like how a
00:48:28 how a harley quote would be set out with regards to what they've done here so right so you would have seen this kind of document from harley on previous projects
00:48:35 projects is that that we were telling us yeah i see now you can see that this budget for cladding if you look at page one includes insulation in three places uh you can you can see it's in the
00:48:47 uh you can you can see it's in the second entry down and then in the um the one fourth and then third from the bottom you see that
00:48:56 that yeah yep see rainer bonzing's rain screen spangled cladding and insulation and then insulation and insulation are the fourth and third from the end um but doesn't it doesn't specify what product
00:49:08 doesn't it doesn't specify what product is to be used do you remember whether you took any steps to investigate what the insulation product was on which these quotes had been based um
00:49:19 on which these quotes had been based um no
00:49:23 then let's turn to another topic which is the appointment of harley can i ask you to look at ryd3013524 please page one this is an email
00:49:39 from you to mark harris on the 25th of july 2014
00:49:50 copied to simon lawrence and simon o'connor and you can see that you attached
00:49:56 attached a uh series of documents there yeah the first of which is the harley signed letter of intent and the rest of them is a series of appendices
00:50:08 appendices and you say mark please find attached letter of intent and associated documents
00:50:13 documents do you remember sending mr harris that draft letter of intent yep you do let's look at it it's h a r um five zeros
00:50:24 r um five zeros one two zero
00:50:31 is that it yep if you look at item one in the letter the first item design of facade works the authorized
00:50:43 design of facade works the authorized work
00:50:44 work so you can see that the loi letter of intent
00:50:48 intent authorized harley to complete 30 000 pounds worth of work on the design of the facade is that correct yes it is and if we look further down page one and over to the top of page two
00:51:00 page one and over to the top of page two we can see um that there's a section entitled compliance which then sets out a number of documents and drawings was it your understanding that this compliance section of the loi
00:51:13 compliance section of the loi set out the requirements for harley's works under the loi uh yeah that's that's the set of requirements are there to be designing too yeah yes is it fair to say that compared with a
00:51:25 is it fair to say that compared with a formal written contract this loi is much less comprehensive in terms of the specific requirements that it places on harley as a subcontractor or potential subcontractor
00:51:36 potential subcontractor yeah yes did you intend uh well let's let me try it this way what did you intend the role of this loi to be
00:51:46 to be so we needed to get someone on board um to commence the design works um so i don't believe we would have had
00:51:57 um so i don't believe we would have had the main contract at this time um we we potentially are under a letter of intent ourselves i'm not sure that's entirely correct but i believe we might be under 11 10 ourselves that's why quite often if you don't have a main
00:52:09 quite often if you don't have a main contract you have nothing to contract against so you would go back to back of a letter intent that you've received you can only issue letter of intent out to subcontractors however also a lot of intent is used for speed in order to
00:52:21 intent is used for speed in order to procure a design element so that that can get underway while the design details are still being developed i see so it's a commitment to
00:52:32 developed i see so it's a commitment to harley's that they'll get paid for their design work i see so
00:52:40 is it was the idea of this loi to form the basis of a short-term contractual relationship uh whether legally binding or not is a question we don't have to get into but
00:52:51 question we don't have to get into but but it was as a short-term contractual relationship would that which would then be
00:52:54 be superseded by a full formal contract that is the intention yeah yes can i ask you to look at ryd3013679 page one um this is mr harris's
00:53:06 page one um this is mr harris's confirmation the same day 25th of i'll just wait for it to come up on the screen 25th of july 2014 back to you
00:53:16 you where he says zach a quick note to confirm receipt i will read through everything and send a formal acknowledgement in due course now if we then turn to ryd301
00:53:34 this is an email from mark harris to you on the 31st of july so a few days later copy to simon lawrence simon o'connor and others read grenfell tower letter of intent and
00:53:45 read grenfell tower letter of intent and then he then sets out some queries prior to signing the design in intent of intent he says i need to raise a few queries and he does and if you look at the very um
00:53:58 and if you look at the very um uh bottom of mr harris's email if we go to the end of it on page two um he says uh once we have agreed on the
00:54:11 um he says uh once we have agreed on the above i will be pleased to return the signed loi however in the interim in the spirit of the long-term trading relationship between harley and ryden we will of course commence the design phase and look forward to the first design team meeting in due course
00:54:24 design team meeting in due course um i just want to ask you a question about the long-term trading relationship he refers to what was the nature of that long-term trading relationship um that we've been working with harley's
00:54:36 um that we've been working with harley's or known of harley since probably 2005 2006
00:54:44 on what kinds of projects uh on cladding projects external reversion which was the camden project namely that was the first time we used them
00:54:55 we used them and and who were the particular people most responsible for holding that relationship together and developing it uh that was a direct level so that would
00:55:06 uh that was a direct level so that would be between steve uh and probably ray and mark so steve blake at ryden and ray bailey and mark harris had harley
00:55:17 ray bailey and mark harris had harley i see
00:55:22 was it common for ryden to allow significant work such as we see in this letter of intent
00:55:29 intent to start without a formal final written contract in place um yeah
00:55:39 can i ask you to go to ryd3016422
00:55:45 this is an email exchange between you and mr harris between the 22nd and 20th and the 27th of august 2014
00:55:56 and the 27th of august 2014 and it it picks up on what follows on from mark harris's email to you of the 31st of july we see that at the bottom of page one and in the middle of the page
00:56:08 and in the middle of the page you write to mark harris on the 22nd of august copy to simon lawrence and others hi mark comments below trustees remove your concerns
00:56:19 and then mr harris responds so you comment in red i think and mr harris then responds with noted or noted and agreed in blue because we look at the top email uh on
00:56:30 because we look at the top email uh on the 27th of august he said he he essentially says that morning zach all looks okay i've confirmed the same in blue for the record um and he then asks when the
00:56:42 um and he then asks when the contract documents would be ready you see that yep and if you we can see your response a few minutes later not on this email chain it's at ryd3016429
00:56:54 chain it's at ryd3016429 we can look at that please
00:57:01 uh you say to mark harris mark thanks we received our contract yesterday so the letter of intent can be extended to your full order value i will get official documentation out to you shortly
00:57:13 shortly so just looking at all of that in august at this stage were you telling harley
00:57:19 harley that you were going to arrange for a formal contract shortly yeah right now let's turn to
00:57:28 h.a.r.40101069
00:57:31 har401069 this is an email chain and i'd like to go to the last email in the chain which is the bottom of page one and over to page
00:57:43 the bottom of page one and over to page two
00:57:45 two um and mark harris says to you and this is 16 september 2014 so more than two weeks after the um email we've just seen and he says in the
00:57:57 email we've just seen and he says in the second line there morning zach in order to maintain program we need to place special dyes and bar length material on order by the end of the week as we stand we only have authority for thirty thousand pounds design
00:58:08 pounds design we will either need an increase in the value of the loi or the subcontract in place as soon as possible please the approximate value of metal and dies is three hundred and twenty five thousand pounds so it looks at this stage that that you
00:58:20 so it looks at this stage that that you hadn't arranged a formal contract at this point even though two weeks before you'd said you were going to arrange for one shortly yep
00:58:31 why is that why did two weeks go by um well at this stage uh we we then had a job surveyor who was starting to work on this and i was coming away from it
00:58:42 this and i was coming away from it um so the idea was with my workload and what i had across the across the team um that he would then take that on and get the full documentation out um so
00:58:54 documentation out um so when i said i'll arrange for it i was hoping the project surveyor would would pick that up and do it um so in the interim i i've increased
00:59:05 so in the interim i i've increased the loi value so that harley's can carry on working right who was that project surveyor uh first of all it was adam marriott right
00:59:17 first of all it was adam marriott right and aft and then then and i think then he left the company um early the following year i think and then
00:59:25 then uh james clifton then took the contract to completion but this particular job surveyor who was starting to work on that was that a marriott
00:59:32 marriott yes right yeah i see now if you look um at what
00:59:35 at what mark harris is telling you he's telling you i think that the value of the loi which was only 30 000 pounds at that stage wasn't enough to complete the work that harley needed to complete is that right
00:59:48 yeah so basically the 30 000 was covering his design he was getting to the point where obviously he now needed to place further orders so yeah he needed the value increase and all this he's got
00:59:59 increase and all this he's got he's underwritten to expend further monies right and that's a that's a big increase from 30 000 isn't it it's tenfold more than yes now if you scroll up to your response at the top of the chain you say same day to him uh
01:00:12 you say same day to him uh mark please treat this email as official confirmation that the letter of intent has been increased to the full value of your appendix a ascertainment of lump sum price two million six hundred and seventeen thousand four hundred ninety five pounds
01:00:24 thousand four hundred ninety five pounds the terms and conditions of the original document apply now i just want to break that down with you first of all you had authorized were authorizing harley to do up to 2.6 odd million pounds worth of work by this
01:00:36 odd million pounds worth of work by this email
01:00:37 email yes yep right in other words the full amount of their ascertainment of lump sum price yep but the terms that applied to that would continue to be those in the loi document that we saw before
01:00:50 in the loi document that we saw before yeah
01:00:51 yeah um now mr harris had asked for an extension of the loi or a formal contract
01:00:55 contract is there a reason why you didn't go straight to a formal contract at this stage but stuck with the terms in the loi
01:01:01 loi uh just timing timing just work loads um why did you choose to go to the full extent of the um appendix a number two the 2.6 odd million pounds rather than
01:01:13 the 2.6 odd million pounds rather than simply only the 325 000 pounds that mr harris had asked for because i believe we had our our contract obviously arrived at that point um so we we were good to go
01:01:24 um so we we were good to go so the intention was that the uh full subcontractor order was going to follow out
01:01:29 out relatively quickly um so in interim obviously i've discussed it with with the team and we felt as comfortable to to do that underwriting for the full value knowing that the rest of the order
01:01:41 value knowing that the rest of the order was going to go out shortly you said yes and you you say in that last answer our contracts obviously arrived at that point and this goes back to something you said earlier this morning does that mean the contract between the tmo and
01:01:53 mean the contract between the tmo and ryden the head contract i would imagine that's what i was referring to yet
01:01:59 right do you know or do you remember that in fact that head contract between the tmr and ryden was only finally executed at the end of october 2014. okay did you know that oh
01:02:12 2014. okay did you know that oh 2014 so a month after this six weeks yeah so maybe i was responding to notice that the contract's done we're getting the contract so that's probably why right
01:02:24 probably why right can we perhaps understand that evidence um does that tell us that in fact although the formal contract between the tmo
01:02:31 tmo and ryden had not been executed it was sufficiently advanced for you to be confident enough to tell harley that they could go to the full amount of their appendix a number that's obviously what we felt at the time yeah right
01:02:43 time yeah right okay now if we um go back to
01:02:51 um the loi h a r five zeros one two zero i'd like to look at page
01:02:58 at page three with you and over at the top of page four
01:03:06 at the bottom of page three
01:03:14 we can see that it specifically requests an acknowledgment and the signing and the return of the enclosed duplicate just look at that we would be grateful if you could acknowledge your acceptance of the term set out in this contract
01:03:26 of the term set out in this contract and if you go to page four by signing and returning the enclave's duplicate by return and then simon lawrence has signed the letter but there's a blank in the con in the
01:03:37 but there's a blank in the con in the signature block for harley we can't find any signed version of this document do you remember whether there was in fact ever a signed version of the loi i don't remember no it looks as if
01:03:49 i don't remember no it looks as if harley never did sign it can you explain that no did you ever chase for a signature on the loi
01:03:58 the loi i'm not sure i did whose job would it have been to chase that uh a combination of people in the team um
01:04:05 um so yeah it would have been been all of us
01:04:09 us was it common for ryden to allow nearly three million pounds worth of work to be undertaken uh without a formal signed agreement in place
01:04:19 place um no normally there'd be a full order in place
01:04:23 in place why not on this occasion right did it cause you any concern um at any point later no um well only at the time at the end
01:04:38 no um well only at the time at the end when obviously then harley's went into administration um obviously then it was it it became or it was a worry that we'd realized that
01:04:50 it could have been an issue because we know that harley ultimately never entered into a comprehensive formal written agreement for the grenfell tower works do you know
01:05:01 for the grenfell tower works do you know why that was
01:05:04 let's turn to a different topic um value engineering mr chairman this is a topic i think i can complete yeah absolutely before that's a break um value engineering
01:05:17 if i can ask you to go to your statement and look at paragraph 18 on page three you say something about this subject
01:05:26 you say the value engineering exercise was led by the client i believe the tender was over the client's budget from the outset and so the client wanted the exercise completed value engineering is an
01:05:37 completed value engineering is an exercise
01:05:38 exercise to provide value to a client it is not always a cost saving exercise it is the value of the change so there could be a better output not just a saving are you
01:05:49 not just a saving are you familiar with the riba definition of value engineering or were you at the time um no no um were you aware in general terms
01:06:02 um were you aware in general terms that as a concept value engineering should be to meet requirements at the lowest cost but without sacrificing functionality did were you aware that that was
01:06:13 were you aware that that was an important consideration yep yes and without sacrificing safety were you aware that that was an
01:06:20 important consideration yep yes were you ever given any training on the how to go about value engineering no were you ever given any training on its purpose no was the fact that value engineering
01:06:33 no was the fact that value engineering in the context of this project um
01:06:39 not sacrificing functionality ever discussed specifically
01:06:45 no no
01:06:48 was it were there any discussions ever within ryden to your knowledge about how safety should not be compromised when conducting this value value engineering exercise
01:07:00 this value value engineering exercise not specifically no now you say value engineering is not always a cost-saving exercise um but on the grenfell tower project it was wasn't it purely a cost-saving
01:07:11 was wasn't it purely a cost-saving exercise
01:07:12 exercise that was the idea yeah yes yeah and is that because
01:07:20 ryden's tender sum was in excess of the tmos budget right from the outset yeah let's go to page two and look at paragraph 13 of your statement
01:07:31 paragraph 13 of your statement you discuss the value engineering of the cladding at grenfell and you say here the proposal to use a different cladding material was made as part of a value engineering process
01:07:42 as part of a value engineering process requested by the client i was not directly involved in that process
01:07:47 process but i understood from internal team meetings at the time that harley put forward the proposed designs and costs and the client made a decision on what is the proper the preferred option probably based on cost but also in
01:07:59 probably based on cost but also in conjunction with the planners and architects this is what it paused there um you say you weren't directly involved in the value engineering exercise
01:08:10 the value engineering exercise we'll come back to that in a moment but did you have any indirect involvement in the value engineering exercise do you remember
01:08:16 remember um no i recall no i think most of the savings had been put on the table with our pre-construction team
01:08:27 with the pre-construction team yeah can i just understand what you mean as in our estimating team carried that through um i see uh do you say you do you say you
01:08:40 i see uh do you say you do you say you weren't involved with that exercise that's a nod it doesn't go on the problem sorry yes yes you were not involved
01:08:48 involved well let's see um let's look at paragraph 14 you say you said i had no involvement in selecting the cladding material or the method of fixing it my role was to set out the cost saving elements
01:09:04 the cost saving element which had been calculated and submitted by our estimating team as part of the post-tender process i did not attempt to influence the selection of cladding material or the method of fixing this was a decision for
01:09:15 method of fixing this was a decision for the client and the planners and architect now and then looking at paragraph 15 you say there were errors i understand that there were errors in hardly's quote for the cladding work i
01:09:26 hardly's quote for the cladding work i believe this was due to a miscalculation of the size of the area to quote for it was harley's error there were discussions over whether hardish would bear the cost i do not recall the outcome
01:09:35 outcome the final decision regarding whether ryden bought any of the cost would have been taken by steve blake as a director and then i just want to show you one more thing you say paragraph 19.
01:09:48 more thing you say paragraph 19. you say value engineering occurred on other projects not specific to the project and then you go on to say i was not
01:09:59 and then you go on to say i was not heavily involved but the savings would be for the subcontractors not ryden hardly proposed the alternative approaches and the ultimate decision was made by the client i do not know how the savings were allocated
01:10:11 allocated i was not directly involved in that decision that's what you say there now just i've shown you three paragraphs from your statement just summarizing what i've shown you is it your evidence that your
01:10:23 your evidence that your role was to collate the information on cost savings but not to take any decisions as to how they were allocated correct and or even to know how they were allocated um i didn't recall how they were
01:10:36 um i didn't recall how they were allocated i knew what the cost was and knew what saving was right
01:10:43 well let's um move on with this with with a
01:10:47 with a sort of examination of that mr chairman i'm looking at the headings in my note and this will go on beyond 11 15. well i'll be on 11 15. i mean we can go a bit longer
01:10:59 a bit longer um yeah we'll have a break in any event mr men on
01:11:02 mr men on within the next 10 15 minutes or so okay are you comfortable for the time being yep that's fine well let's continue
01:11:09 continue let's continue for a bit i'm grateful thank you um i want to ask you then about
01:11:13 about um the value engineering in some detail um i think you uh confirmed to us earlier that you were katy perchelli's line manager and not
01:11:24 katy perchelli's line manager and not this time
01:11:25 this time not not at this time i didn't become her line manager until after this tender had been put in
01:11:33 put in when precisely do you think you became her line manager uh i think i got promoted in may i believe in my statement right may
01:11:44 in my statement right may yeah may so what was your um hierarchical relationship with mr shelly a
01:11:50 a in march
01:11:53 in march there wasn't one it wasn't one we were just we were colleagues she was leading estimating i was uh involved in
01:12:01 in surveying okay can i ask you to look at ryd3086654 please which is a run of emails on the 11th of march 2014 and let's go to page two
01:12:15 if we go to page two of that we can see there's an email of the 11th of march where
01:12:19 where mr shelley uh writes to steve blake to say that she'd found an error in ryden's tender sum amounting to 2012 200 and 200 212 000 pounds
01:12:33 200 and 200 212 000 pounds now you weren't copied in on this email chain but were you aware of that error at the time do you think i was aware at the time i would have been yeah how would you have been made aware of that do you think
01:12:44 that do you think uh just when the scheme was potentially going live it probably would have been made apparent that there's some issues on the tender handover
01:12:57 how would that have been made apparent uh just when we went through as an internal review it probably would have been flagged up then okay um now if you look at page one of this email run and look at the top
01:13:09 email run and look at the top mr blake uh um explained it by saying that mr smith was asked to take out some performance he says which from
01:13:20 out some performance he says which from memory was about two hundred thousand pounds
01:13:23 pounds do you know what that's a reference to
01:13:30 um
01:13:35 i think it's just a i don't know specifically but it looks like it's just a general view um of taking out some some costs from our tender
01:13:48 how did he get to 200 i don't know you don't know um if we look at the email just below that this is mr shelley a's response at 12 42 on the 11th of march
01:14:00 12 42 on the 11th of march to steve blake's response to her about the mistake his response had said disappointing but not unexpected hopefully there'll be something to compensate etc
01:14:11 and then she goes back to him and says uh yes the bill figure is incorrect resulting in our tender figure being 212 000 pounds lower than it should be i think we will recover this from
01:14:23 i think we will recover this from harley's by taking the timber reveals out of their package but that will mean we will have to work a little bit harder in of finding some significant ve savings is it fair to say that ryden
01:14:36 ve savings is it fair to say that ryden at the time was contemplating identifying value engineering savings which would compensate for the error that's been identified
01:14:45 potentially yeah yes now given that you um
01:14:49 um oversaw as we saw from your cv all aspects of financial control and reported on all projects delivered by the refurbishment team um is it fair to say that you were
01:15:00 um is it fair to say that you were managing this process i was involved in the process yeah yes were you managing it i wouldn't necessarily be managing it though let's go to ryd303295
01:15:14 though let's go to ryd303295 and look at page one
01:15:20 this is an email uh ch run still on the 11th of march 2014. so same day and it was sent to you among others if
01:15:31 and it was sent to you among others if you look at the second email down katie rochellier writes to steve blake simon
01:15:37 simon lawrence allen sharings and you zach maynard
01:15:42 maynard grenfell cladding is the subject all starting to think about ve for grenfell and you can see what she then says there
01:15:53 and you can see what she then says there she says looking at frank's comparison harleys are expensive on the windows and then she sets out the comparisons harley 1.5 odd million alternative system
01:16:04 system 3d 1.1 million or approved installer of spec glass solutions 1.1 advanced glass 1.2 may be worth discussing with harley to see if they can come down
01:16:15 see if they can come down on price before they start looking at ve thoughts question mark now
01:16:23 mr shelley sends that email as i've shown you to steve blake simon lawrence and alan sharrex but she also sent it to you and asks for thoughts what involvement did you have at this stage in this exercise
01:16:37 at this stage in this exercise i honestly can't remember do you know why she sent you this email uh yeah because if it's if the job is potentially going live and it becomes a live job then
01:16:49 it becomes a live job then i've got information when it goes live was this the first email that you had seen or first discussion that you were invited to be involved in in relation to value engineering on
01:17:00 in relation to value engineering on grenfell
01:17:00 grenfell uh again i can't remember you can't remember
01:17:03 remember i don't remember that either
01:17:07 is it fair to say that at least by the 11th of march you or and perhaps your team as well had begun
01:17:15 begun to set your mind to how money could be saved on the grenfell tower project in general terms um i'd say we'd maybe even start to be aware of it but whether we'd start to set our mind on it at that point i can't
01:17:26 set our mind on it at that point i can't answer do you remember whether you specifically had any previous discussions with katie buchelli about this subject prior to the 11th of march not from what i can recall right now
01:17:38 not from what i can recall right now if we go well but what about stephen blake did you have any discussions with him about value engineering on grenfell prior to this email run on the 11th of march again i can't recall from that date no
01:17:49 date no right if we go to ryd403287 please let's look at the email in the middle of the page
01:17:59 the page this is an email from uh simon lawrence uh
01:18:08 to alan sharrick's katy percely a steve blake and you on the 12th of march so next day
01:18:16 and he says we should hold a value engineering workshop before too much more discussion hierarchy of needs versus where we have correct values in csa exclamation mark
01:18:29 correct values in csa exclamation mark exclamation mark brackets crazy scottish arithmetic closed bracket now um you got this email at the time i just want to ask you crazy scottish arithmetic was was that a ref what was that about uh
01:18:43 what was that about uh he's obviously making reference to some errors um
01:18:46 errors um in the in the tinder uh frank that so that's a reference to frank smith's costing error is it yep yes why was it necessary do you remember to have a workshop before too
01:18:58 remember to have a workshop before too much discussion too much more discussion
01:19:04 um i imagine simon wanted to have a have a meeting um to just just discuss it and get get everyone's heads around it i would have thought that's what he's calling for
01:19:15 thought that's what he's calling for there
01:19:16 there was there a help a value engineering workshop held from memory i i don't know can you explain what the hierarchy of needs means no looking at the top of the page
01:19:29 means no looking at the top of the page we can see that you respond to this email
01:19:32 email on the same day 32 minutes later at 9am uh and you say katie is going to rejig the tender report before we discuss ve as there are a few issues that need to
01:19:43 as there are a few issues that need to be corrected to get to our true cost first yep what did you mean by that uh so basically you once a tender uh is submitted the estimator produces a tender report
01:19:54 estimator produces a tender report uh which lays out where all our costs are and our value are um and she needed to understand what our actual cost is uh to understand
01:20:06 what our actual cost is uh to understand what
01:20:06 what margin there was before she presented her tender report to us as the project team
01:20:17 i see and and when she said she's going to re-jig the tender report what did that involve or what did you understand her to mean by so basically she was
01:20:28 by so basically she was having to review what frank had done um get a head around it uh and and and represent it so it was correct right it looks from this email that you had had a discussion with katie
01:20:39 with katie beschellier about rejigging the tender report yeah because i would need it if the job was going live i see
01:20:48 and then if we go to ryd403295 at the top
01:20:52 top we can see that that here is a response from mr blake to katie barcelli's march 11th of march email
01:21:01 email this is this is the 12th of march this is the response to the com the comparison list we saw earlier and he responds to her and copied to you among others
01:21:14 among others we are going to be asked by k and c to find some further value engineering savings
01:21:18 savings in addition to those identified in our tender let's wait until this approach is made before going to the supply chain in terms of value allocation we took care to make provision against a specification that was exactly compliant peter m is going
01:21:30 was exactly compliant peter m is going to forward some ideas tomorrow
01:21:34 what did you understand the phrase in terms of value allocation we took care to make a provision against the specification that was exactly compliant to mean
01:21:46 that was exactly compliant to mean what do you think he meant
01:21:58 i think he means in terms of allocating um our our costs uh perhaps on the tender report um
01:22:11 uh perhaps on the tender report um they've made sure that they've got the the correct costs in place um against the the specifications to be quoted by
01:22:18 quoted by our that's how i'm reading that can i then in light of that answer just ask you to go back to
01:22:31 ryd3086654
01:22:36 which is mr blake's response to mr chelyer's telling him that there had been an error we looked at this about three minutes
01:22:47 we looked at this about three minutes ago five minutes ago where mr blake says katie thinking about this frank was asked to take out some performance which from memory was about 200 000 pounds and we looked at that together
01:22:58 together um what does performance mean there i'm not sure i'm not sure um i mean if
01:23:10 correct costs were in place
01:23:14 against specification how could you remove
01:23:17 remove two hundred thousand pounds worth of performance whatever performance might mean
01:23:20 mean yeah but it might be moving money to that area so it might actually be saying oh
01:23:27 saying oh we thought there was 200 grams worth of profit in there but actually we're going to move it across and put it there that it could mean that as well so it's difficult to tell but it's difficult to tell okay um going back then and sticking
01:23:39 okay um going back then and sticking with
01:23:39 with with um the email um we're we're on we we saw that there was a response to your email
01:23:50 email about rejigging the read the tender report was there a document which you ever saw which was a re-jigged tender report there would have been a tender report yes was there a
01:24:02 yes was there a revised tender report there which um uh which catered for the 200 000 error i would imagine so there would have been a document that got issued that then we would have used
01:24:13 that then we would have used to to run from basically from a live scheme so let's see so can you just explain the tender report tells you what in in a nutshell so it's a summary of the tender bid that we've got that's gone in
01:24:25 tender bid that we've got that's gone in it gives a forecast of what our expected margin is going to be so it is our cost baseline and our overall value uh and it allocates it into all the subcontract packages
01:24:37 subcontract packages uh and prelims etc so it splits it all down where the where the allocations are thank you yes um can i again then go back to ryd403295
01:24:49 then go back to ryd403295 this is mr blake's response to katy percilio's march email 11th of march email on the 12th of march we just looked at this where he says in terms of value allocation we took care to make
01:25:00 allocation we took care to make provision
01:25:01 provision what was the provision
01:25:05 i don't know okay um no it looks from this email particularly the last line peter m is going to forward some ideas tomorrow that mr blake had been in contact with peter madison personally
01:25:16 peter madison personally did mr blake tell you about his contact with peter madison at the time i can't recall
01:25:29 did mr blake tell you anything about what he discussed with mr madison again you don't know from memory um if i can ask you to go to ryd303302
01:25:45 this is an email of the 13th of march
01:25:51 from steve blake to alan sharax and you and katie porcelli and simon lawrence right and
01:25:59 right and attachments right in potential costs reductions and there's a spreadsheet and it says see email chain below and spreadsheet i have spoken to harley's and said that if we can do some significant ve to
01:26:11 if we can do some significant ve to match their budget we will be recommended i've asked them to reconfirm their price to double check the allowances we have submitted
01:26:20 and then conversation with js wright meanwhile let's have a brainstorm for further ideas and confirm figures on spreadsheet just looking at that is it fair to say that by the 13th
01:26:31 that is it fair to say that by the 13th of march you were aware that significant value engineering was required on this project i was aware of yeah yes now the spreadsheet to which uh mr
01:26:42 yes now the spreadsheet to which uh mr blake is referring is that ryd three zeros
01:26:46 zeros sorry four zeros three three zero one ryd four zeros three three zero one and we're going to need the native version of this please
01:27:00 i'll just pop it up on the screen and then ask you a general question we can see from the email that you were asked by mr blake to look at this document
01:27:16 if we can have it up on the screen
01:27:27 here it is um looking at it now do you remember whether you did look at this document as mr blake had asked you to i can't remember right is this does this document trigger a recollection at all
01:27:38 document trigger a recollection at all no right well let's look at it and see how far we go look at the top line of text
01:27:43 text grenfell the works budget is eight million four hundred and fifteen thousand pounds the cost savings to be made need to be in the region of eight hundred thousand pounds you see
01:27:54 of eight hundred thousand pounds you see that
01:27:55 that yep so
01:27:59 if you had opened this document is it fair and can we conclude that you would have understood from that that ryden needed to find 800 000 pounds worth of savings from its tender son
01:28:16 correct yeah yes do you remember whether you did have a brainstorm for further ideas that um mr blake had suggested in his email i don't you don't
01:28:29 i don't you don't if we can go back into the email chain we were looking at a minute ago ryd403302
01:28:36 ryd403302 and just look at page one and page two and let's have them side by side i just want to look at the bottom of page one and over the top of page two
01:28:50 this is an email when we get to it from david gibson right at the very bottom of page one he's at the tmo 13th of march to steve blake
01:29:01 blake copied to claire williams and peter madison
01:29:04 madison and he says in the second line i've attached a simple spreadsheet indicating the areas we would like to look at in relation to possible savings our target
01:29:16 savings our target is kerkar 800 000 pounds which included the cladding savings already priced at any grant income to the scheme
01:29:27 at any grant income to the scheme now you weren't copied in on this email at the time
01:29:33 but we can see mr blake's response where you and this is on page one left hand side of the screen on the 13th of march same day hi david
01:29:45 on the 13th of march same day hi david understand what's required and see no reason
01:29:47 reason why this can't be achieved your spreadsheet says a tuesday pm meet rather than monday pm as email would work perfectly as requested we will respond early monday regarding opportunities for savings and time scales
01:29:58 time scales look forward to meeting you now mr blake's response as we can see comes at 18 30 on the 13th of march which is just a little over five hours
01:30:09 which is just a little over five hours after david gibson's response message to him at 13 14 on that day you see that
01:30:17 see that um and and then if you look up at the top of page one
01:30:29 we can see from the email i showed you earlier
01:30:32 earlier where it says see email chain below and spreadsheet that steve blake then sends the spreadsheet and this message on to you among others at 1837 says seven minutes after he gets it so just summarizing it what happens is
01:30:45 so just summarizing it what happens is it looks like david gibson sends his spreadsheet and his his request for eight hundred thousand pounds worth out of savings at eight at uh in in uh in the afternoon steve blake then
01:30:59 uh in the afternoon steve blake then responds to him at 1830 and then sends that on to you among others at 1837. my question is um did you and mr blake discuss
01:31:10 um did you and mr blake discuss mr gibson's email before mr blake responded to mr gibson
01:31:22 not from memory name during that five-hour period on the afternoon of the 13th of march you don't remember do you know or remember whether mr blake had any discussion with anybody else at
01:31:33 had any discussion with anybody else at ryden before he responded to mr gibson at 1830 saying see no reason why this can't be achieved i don't know is it fair to say that ryden's position from your recollection
01:31:45 ryden's position from your recollection was that it would find the required savings come what may i think that was the intention yeah right mr chairman i am
01:31:57 right mr chairman i am midstream somewhat but this is probably as convenient as any yes i think it's time we had a break yes uh mr maynard we're going to have a short break now um i must ask you please not to talk to
01:32:09 um i must ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it while you're out of the room yep yeah and if you know go with the usher she'll look after you i'm sorry i should say we'll come back of course to 12 please
01:32:30 thank you of course to twelve
01:46:41 yes would you ask mr maynard to come back please
01:47:10 right mr maynard ready to carry on yeah yep thank you yes thank you mr chairman mr maynard can we go back to the email we were looking at before the break at ryd403
01:47:23 break at ryd403 and look at the email that steve blake sent miss david gibson at the tmo at 1830 on the 13th of march second email down on that page where he
01:47:34 second email down on that page where he says hi david understands what's required
01:47:36 required and see no reason why this can't be achieved and you'll recall that this was the savings of eight hundred thousand pounds and we we looked at whether or not um
01:47:49 and we we looked at whether or not um you had discussions about that do you know can you help how with how mr blake came to the conclusion that there was no reason why savings of 800 000 pounds
01:48:00 800 000 pounds could not be achieved uh he was probably quite familiar with the with the project uh and the tender itself so he probably felt he was able to
01:48:10 to uh make that comment did you have any discussions with mr blake about whether a saving of that magnitude was in fact possible
01:48:18 possible before he sent this email to mr gibson you didn't have any discussions i don't believe i had any discussions right did the fact
01:48:29 right did the fact that mr blake had told mr gibson that there was and i paraphrased no problem with a saving of eight hundred thousand pounds place you under significant pressure as
01:48:41 place you under significant pressure as ryden's
01:48:42 ryden's most senior surveyor in relation to this project
01:48:46 project no not at this stage no no this stage did it later um i never felt there was particular pressure
01:48:53 pressure um obviously the this was pretty much going on
01:48:58 going on uh although it was post-tender it was pre-contract so um these savings were trying to be achieved before we got on site i believe
01:49:13 let's look at another document ryd403315 this is a little just a little later in the
01:49:21 the story on this this is an email from mark harris
01:49:25 harris of harley to steve blake simon lawrence uh katie and katie beshellier the next day 14th of march 2014. now you're not copied in on this
01:49:37 2014. now you're not copied in on this it has an attachment proposed ve cost savings i just want to show you the second paragraph mark harris says this has been presented to show the value
01:49:48 to show the value of the compliant package with ve cost options below and then if you look at the third paragraph he says there no doubt budget will be
01:50:02 he says there no doubt budget will be the driver here now i know you didn't see this email at the time so i'm not going to show it all to you but did you ever see this email at the time do you think
01:50:14 not not from memory we'll we'll look at the spreadsheet dear but in a second but do you remember having any discussions with katie bercelier about a first round
01:50:25 with katie bercelier about a first round of value engineering options which had come from harley i don't know let's look at the spreadsheet it's ryd403316
01:50:36 ryd403316 please and we can see the four options here that mr harris refers to
01:50:47 just just looking at this document um is this a document that you saw at the time do you think um i don't remember seeing this
01:50:59 um i don't remember seeing this particular document however i do remember seeing the uh schedule of the savings yes well we'll come to those and this is why i'm showing this to you this is this is where it all starts um mr
01:51:12 this is where it all starts um mr maynard so let's just see how we go we can see the four options that mr harris is referring to
01:51:18 to let's just run through them quickly uh there's a compliant bid based on highly quotation
01:51:25 quotation of the 29th of january 2014. 3.7 million odd
01:51:30 odd pounds and that's based on proteus zinc cassette cladding with birch face plywood window reveals and then we see proposed ve cost savings and there's a list of
01:51:41 list of items there the second is upvc window reveals in lieu of birch faced plywood 74 or a thousand
01:51:48 thousand and then we get the four options for the cladding you get reyno bond natural zinc cladding cassette in lieu of proteus zinc cladding
01:51:59 in lieu of proteus zinc cladding cassette a saving of 157 odd thousand then you get rainable natural zinc cladding face fix in lieu of proteus zinc cladding cassette saving of 279 odd thousand and then you
01:52:11 saving of 279 odd thousand and then you have renamed standard silver colored aluminium cassette cladding cassette in lieu of proteus zinc cladding cassette a saving of 419 odd thousand pounds and then finally you have rayna bonds
01:52:22 then finally you have rayna bonds standard silver color aluminium cladding face fix in leo approaches in cladding cassette with a saving of 576 odd thousand pounds now um just looking at those figures
01:52:34 now um just looking at those figures there's a general question is it fair to to assume that you would need to be aware of these figures from harley in order to be able to perform your role as you've described it
01:52:46 when the if when the project goes live then yes yes now we can see that raino bonds acm cladding panels
01:52:54 panels were going to deliver in general terms much bigger savings than zinc cladding weren't they yeah and the face fixed acm panels and even bigger savings than cassette acm panels yes yep yep now we know
01:53:08 yes yep yep now we know um from earlier evidence and from documents that there was a meeting on the 18th of march so four days after this email between the representatives of ryden and
01:53:19 between the representatives of ryden and the tmo
01:53:20 the tmo to discuss potential value engineering options
01:53:23 options do you remember whether you were you went to that meeting i don't remember being in that meeting you don't remember being at it do you remember whether you assisted with preparing the options which were to be presented to the tmo at
01:53:36 which were to be presented to the tmo at that meeting i don't think i did not now let's look at ryd403489
01:53:46 this is an email from katie barcelia of the 20th of march 2014 so two days after that meeting and six days after the 14th of march email
01:53:58 six days after the 14th of march email we were looking at earlier uh sent to peter madison and david gibson at the tmo copied to simon lawrence and steve blake and the subject is grenfell tower value engineering and there are some
01:54:09 engineering and there are some attachments to that email ve options 18th march v cladding ve options 18th march and she says all further to our meeting on tuesday
01:54:20 all further to our meeting on tuesday please find attached our summary list of value engineering options now just bear in mind this is a document that's going to the tmo from ryden right and let's look at the um
01:54:32 right and let's look at the um one of the attachments i want to look at the cladding ve options the second one dated the 18th of march 2014 and we'll find that at ryd403491 please
01:54:44 find that at ryd403491 please and there it is and you can see the savings there the four for the cladding alternative zinc cassette
01:54:52 cassette 100 000 odd alternative zinc face fixed 202 000 odd alternative aluminium system cassette
01:55:00 cassette 293 000 odd alternative aluminium system face fix 376
01:55:06 376 000 now
01:55:10 this shows and it's self-evident but let me just put it to you that the biggest saving that was to be passed on to the tmo was available for face fixed acm cladding wasn't it
01:55:22 cladding wasn't it at 376 000 yes yep yes and the next largest was cassette
01:55:28 cassette fixed acm with a saving of 293 odd thousand pounds yes okay now let's just go we'll go we may come back to this but keep those figures in your mind i'm sure
01:55:39 keep those figures in your mind i'm sure they're familiar to you um go to art four zeros two two five six
01:55:48 these are
01:55:53 so this is a rt40 that's it um two two five six these are minutes from the contractor induction meeting held on the 1st of april 2014 and we could see who was present at it
01:56:05 could see who was present at it if we look at the list we can see that second from bottom as present is you mr maynard yes yep yes and you're there with alan sharrick's and simon lawrence from writing as well as christina stefanu who was the
01:56:18 as well as christina stefanu who was the ryden
01:56:18 ryden rlo yes yes yes now um if we look at page two of that uh minute look at point 2.1 there is a
01:56:31 point 2.1 there is a heading under paragraph section 2 item 2 proposed savings referenced intended submission 2.1 there is a potential saving of up to three hundred and seventy six
01:56:43 up to three hundred and seventy six thousand one hundred and seventy five pounds
01:56:45 pounds that could be realized through changes to the proposed cladding savings can be achieved by changing the material and the method of fixing changing from zinc to aluminium and using a face fixing rather than cassette
01:56:57 using a face fixing rather than cassette would save the most money do you know who said at that meeting that there was a potential
01:57:05 potential saving of up to 376 175 pounds no now is it fair for us to assume that you were the person at ryden who led the discussions
01:57:17 person at ryden who led the discussions about
01:57:18 about cost at that meeting no who would have done if it wasn't you uh it would either be the contracts manager um who genuinely like i said was the point of contact so he would have led it or
01:57:30 of contact so he would have led it or it could have been from the client side
01:57:34 the figure of 376 6175 was the figure which mr shellier's spreadsheet uh had had produced hadn't it yeah the one we've just looked at
01:57:45 one we've just looked at the cladding ve options it's not the figure is it given to katie by shelier by
01:57:52 by mark harris of harley on the 14th of march that we looked at was it no because that figure was 576 973 pounds
01:58:01 pounds when you heard the meeting that the potential saving was 376 odd thousand and not 576 uh that thousand why didn't you correct it
01:58:16 the well that's the saving that ryden's are offering
01:58:23 it it is but it isn't correct it wasn't correct to say there was a potential saving of up to 376 000 because the truth was that the potential saving was 576 000. yep that was a saving that had been
01:58:35 000. yep that was a saving that had been offered to brighton exactly so why didn't
01:58:37 didn't why didn't you say at the meeting well actually the potential saving is 576 not 376. well clearly that was the um figure that ryden's submitted
01:58:48 um figure that ryden's submitted uh as a saving that they were offering but it wasn't the the saving that was available was it no it's not no so why didn't you tell the tmo
01:58:58 tmo but the saving that was available was 576.
01:59:02 576. and not as you did 376 000 pounds
01:59:09 sorry the the figure that katie had put on her sheet was the 376. yes yeah yeah it is we've established that so that's right so that's the figure that ryden's
01:59:20 right so that's the figure that ryden's were offering it it is but it wasn't the figure that was available to the tma my question let me put it a different way is why didn't you
01:59:26 you tell the tmo at that meeting that the savings
01:59:29 savings that were available on cladding were up to 576
01:59:34 to 576 as opposed to leaving them with the impression that there was the potential saving of only 376 000 pounds because that wasn't the saving that ryden wanted to to give are we going to explore how the
01:59:47 to give are we going to explore how the figure
01:59:47 figure yes we are
01:59:54 right so can we leave it like this that you were content for the tmo to
02:00:02 live under the assumption that the savings that could be made in respect of proposed clouding were up to 376 000 pounds but not more that's right
02:00:16 376 000 pounds but not more that's right well i think to be fair to mr maynard he i think what he's saying is that was the potential saving to the tmo what was it his decision
02:00:27 what was it his decision if not he was probably stuck with it wasn't he
02:00:32 wasn't he well i mean that's why i asked whether we're going to explore yes how the figure came through what it was yes we are but we are we are looking at the
02:00:39 at the the statement that is made here uh to the tma
02:00:46 did you have any reason to think at that meeting that the tmo knew all thought that there was any more than 376 000 pounds available in respect of the cladding
02:00:56 cladding by way of saving no otherwise potentially they would have raised it um or artillia their their cost advice people might have raised it
02:01:07 raised it now let's look at an email ryd404916 this is an email of the 22nd of may 2014 so some seven weeks later
02:01:20 so some seven weeks later from simon lawrence to claire williams copy to you mr maynard and under point one sorry i should just say there's there are two attachments to that i should have identified you've got
02:01:31 that i should have identified you've got the cladding ve options 18th of march and cladding v options 18th of march and i've shown you the second of those attachments already and simon lawrence says hi claire further to our conversation earlier i've
02:01:43 further to our conversation earlier i've tried to identify what i can at the moment for your financial report i've attached the early cost savings calculations that are originally sent to yourself so that we have a starting point for reference one good news she says he says
02:01:56 one good news she says he says off the hot off the press is that what we believe to be a more expensive acm cladding finish natural aluminum isn't going to be the manufacturers have confirmed that they are willing to supply it at the same price
02:02:07 same price as the other ranges previously discussed therefore the savings stay the same as per
02:02:12 per attached 293 odd thousand cassette or 376 odd thousand face fixed and as we can see mr lawrence attached the two documents which mr picelier
02:02:23 the two documents which mr picelier had attached to her 20th of last email we looked at before now again these figures were not the savings which were in fact being provided by mr harris of harley on the 14th of march
02:02:34 mr harris of harley on the 14th of march were they
02:02:35 were they no no
02:02:38 and you could you could see from this email that simon lawrence was was materially understating to claire williams the extent of the savings actually available in respect of the acm panels did you see
02:02:50 in respect of the acm panels did you see that
02:02:52 that yeah did you take that up with him did you seek to ask him why he was giving the tmo figures for acm which materially
02:03:03 which materially understated the savings that harley had offered
02:03:07 offered no why is that well that was the um the figures that rydens have agreed to to provide as a saving right uh so it wasn't my position to
02:03:18 wasn't my position to to question that being decided above me now on the 8th of may 2014 now this is a little bit earlier in the month
02:03:28 month a couple of weeks earlier in the month than the email we've just been looking at
02:03:33 at we know that mr blake attended a meeting with the rbkc planning department to discuss the cladding materials do you remember
02:03:43 remember him having a meeting in early may with the rbkc planning department about typically no okay do you remember well let's look at the document um if you go to ryd four zeros
02:03:55 you go to ryd four zeros two
02:04:05 here is an email of the 8th of may 2014 from you to steve blake subject grenfell cladding yep and then you set out
02:04:16 you set out the figures yep and this really summarizes the figures that ryden were offering the tmo
02:04:28 ryden were offering the tmo on the one hand and the saving for the four options ali face fixed ali cassette alternative zinc
02:04:36 zinc face fix alternatives in cassette on the one hand with the with the savings that harley were offering ryden on the other yep yes yes yes now there's no content to this email
02:04:48 now there's no content to this email other than this comparison exercise do you remember what caused you to send this email to mr blake yep on the morning of the 8th of may yeah he um he rang me
02:05:00 um he rang me and asked for a summary of the positions on each option of what ryden's had offered back as a saving and
02:05:11 ryden's had offered back as a saving and what harley's it offered so he could see the full picture
02:05:22 i see did he tell you do you remember why he wanted that summary
02:05:30 summary jesus he had all the information at hand okay
02:05:37 now we will come back to that email in due course i think but can i just go first to our another document art zero
02:05:59 these are the minutes from the pre-start meeting
02:06:02 meeting on the 13th of june 2014 and we can see who was present there were representatives there from the tmo
02:06:14 the tmo artelia uh and then simon lawrence and you were there from ryden as well as jason
02:06:19 jason bethel yes yes uh and he's one of your surveyors i think uh he was an estimator right it says surveyor that's why i say is that wrong it was an estimator yes
02:06:30 is that wrong it was an estimator yes i see if we look at the top of the page um the objective is pre-start meeting and review of contract costs you see
02:06:42 and review of contract costs you see is it fair to assume that you were there to deal specifically with the contract costs aspect of the meeting i was there yeah for that for that reason yeah so isn't it yes i mean apart from mr mr bethel as a surveyor
02:06:54 from mr mr bethel as a surveyor um you were there and simon lawrence there was nobody else there from uh from ryden so we can assume that you were there to deal with the contract costs now
02:07:04 costs now if we can turn to page four
02:07:08 we can look at item 8.1 together and this is under review of contract costs and there it says original tender sum is 9.2 odd million pounds
02:07:21 tender sum is 9.2 odd million pounds the savings that ryden have confirmed are as below area cladding saving 293 368 pounds now again i think
02:07:34 368 pounds now again i think this is a question i've asked a number of times but we just put it again this again wasn't the figure that had in fact been offered by harley to ryden was it we saw that they'd offered just about 420 000 pounds yep yes
02:07:47 just about 420 000 pounds yep yes now
02:07:48 now [Applause] we've heard mr lawrence's evidence we've heard mr blake's evidence on this point and we've heard yours i think a little bit but can you in general terms confirm two things for us first of all
02:07:59 us first of all that ryden was not intending to pass on all the savings on cladding that harley had made available to it
02:08:07 to it correct and secondly that ryden was intending to keep the difference for its own benefit correct in order to boost its profit margin or to assist in costs that they were losing elsewhere right
02:08:18 that they were losing elsewhere right now
02:08:19 now if we can look at mrs bercelia's witness statement
02:08:25 i'd like just to look at that document it's ryd3094347 please i'd like to look at page three in that 30 is 94347
02:08:38 30 is 94347 page three and let's look together at paragraph 20. she says in respect to the savings for cladding harley provided four different options to the client
02:08:49 to the client i do not recall which system was chosen my role was to provide the proposed options to the client and to highlight the savings that were available for each option
02:08:59 option now can you are you able to explain how the figures that mr picelier calls the savings that were available for each option
02:09:06 option were arrived at no
02:09:11 does that tell us that you can't help us about how the figures that ryden decided to keep for itself and how much to pass on were arrived at no can't they just go back then to the
02:09:22 no can't they just go back then to the summary email ryd404204
02:09:29 this is the email of the 8th of may we looked at a minute ago yeah um we know how we we may not we may find out yet how harley got to its savings that's one question
02:09:40 savings that's one question but the saving for aluminium cassette of 293
02:09:44 293 368 as opposed to 420 000 is a very precise number it's precise to the last pound and my question is how did ryden
02:09:56 and my question is how did ryden arrive at the savings offered to the tmo in contra distinction to the savings being made available to it by harley for that item i don't know
02:10:08 for that item i don't know who does know well i imagine katie put the figures together so i'd imagine she may know do you know how she did no did you ever ask her no
02:10:19 no did you ever ask her no did it not ever occur to you as the senior surveyor how it came about given that you knew there was a difference under the decision had been made not to pass on the full savings how that partial amount of saving had
02:10:32 how that partial amount of saving had been arrived at no i was looking at the headline figures i know but were you not curious to know how ryden was arriving at the figure it was prepared to pass on not the time though
02:10:45 who had made the final decision as to that amount again i don't know
02:10:52 [Applause] now
02:10:59 you became commercial manager on this project
02:11:02 project in i think may uh commercial manager of the refurbishment team yes does that mean commercial manager including this project it does mean including the project but not specific
02:11:13 including the project but not specific to them when you became commercial manager on this project did did understanding these figures in depth not fall within your remit i didn't i didn't need to understand
02:11:24 i didn't i didn't need to understand figures in depth um i was reporting at high level um so as long as i know what my cost and my value is
02:11:34 value is and i'm aware where it's going and i'm reporting that to steve as an overall job forecast then that's where my job lies the detail is
02:11:46 that's where my job lies the detail is normally the job surveyor would get his head around the detail if it was katie bichelier who had calculated the figure was it your was it not your job once you
02:11:57 was it your was it not your job once you became the commercial manager to understand how she had calculated it so as to be able to um support the decision to pass the that much lesser figure on
02:12:08 much lesser figure on to the tmo uh these these figures were were created uh before i became her line manager
02:12:15 manager um so i didn't i didn't feel the need to to know the ins and outs these figures were submitted and and set in stone um they were what they were in my opinion at the time
02:12:27 what they were in my opinion at the time and who had made the ultimate decision uh to offer savings of 293 to pounds as opposed to 293 369 pounds i
02:12:40 369 pounds i i don't know right
02:12:43 let's turn to a different or slightly different topic which is harley's own costing error ryd409396 please
02:13:00 this is an email from simon lawrence to steve blake and you on the 23rd of june
02:13:20 and if we go to page three that's the top email
02:13:23 top email in the chain uh we can see that there is an email first on the 18th of june from you to mark harris copy to mike alberston at harley and
02:13:34 copy to mike alberston at harley and simon lawrence at ryden and the subject is the grenfell tower price buildup and you say mark apologies for the delay
02:13:45 and you say mark apologies for the delay uh and you say further to our meeting on monday we confirm the following one your current quotation for the zinc cladding option is 3.2 odd million for the external envelope works two we
02:13:58 the external envelope works two we require your lump sum all risk price for the zinc cleaning option to be discounted by five percent to three million and fifty seven thousand four hundred forty two pounds and then
02:14:09 four hundred forty two pounds and then you say
02:14:09 you say three savings to be considered by our client
02:14:13 client which would be deducted from the above are currently a cladding aluminium cassettingly of zinc 419
02:14:20 zinc 419 267 pounds b cladding aluminium face fixed in lieu of zinc 577 000 pounds and i don't need to go into the louvre
02:14:32 and i don't need to go into the louvre panel
02:14:33 panel they're just pausing there and it's not correct to say that these were savings to be considered by our client were they your client the tmo didn't know about these savings
02:14:44 know about these savings no they knew about the savings related to those products yeah now
02:14:51 yeah now if we look at so just pausing there is it fair to say that you were giving the impression to mr harris that you were passing on to the tmo
02:15:04 that you were passing on to the tmo the whole of the savings that harley had offered writing no well you see he says savings to be considered by our client which would be deducted
02:15:14 deducted are currently and you can see cladding aluminium cassette in lieu of zinc 419 000. that's that's the hardly offered figure isn't it yeah yeah but you weren't
02:15:23 weren't asking the client to consider 419 000 were you no i was confirming to harleys that
02:15:30 that the savings that they considered is related to the aluminium cassette or the aluminium face fix i'm not making reference to the actual figures to them i'm saying these are the two options that are currently being
02:15:41 options that are currently being considered i i i see what you mean so so i see you didn't anywhere tell harley that in fact you weren't asking the
02:15:52 that in fact you weren't asking the client to consider 419 000 pounds worth of savings for aluminium cassette in leo zinc but a much lesser figure right now looking at page two of this document let's look together at the
02:16:03 document let's look together at the bottom of the page
02:16:08 uh it's this is an email two days later 20th of june from mark harris to you copy to ray bailey hi zach we'll be coming back to you with a formal
02:16:19 coming back to you with a formal response later today to a number of items below but in the interim i need to talk with you about cost as already discussed there was an estimating error at our end when calculating the savings for using acm
02:16:30 calculating the savings for using acm this was unfortunately a six-figure sum notwithstanding this we remain committed to the project and as already stated we will stand by our bid however being totally honest uh the additional five percent discount is causing an
02:16:41 causing an issue i've been trying to pass the pain down the supply chain but having little success
02:16:45 success can we discuss this further is there a compromise that could be agreed and at the top of that page you respond to mark harris on the same day hi mark a five percent discount uh is
02:16:56 hi mark a five percent discount uh is where we need to get to based on a zinc cladding option as the initial benchmark position to draw a line at we would then look at savings as pos sub contract variations from our
02:17:07 contract variations from our conversations i was led to believe it was only the face fixed option that was a problem can you advise what your true savings were meant to be and how they were arrived at and then if we look at page one right at the bottom
02:17:19 the bottom we can see um you passed this exchange on to steve blake and simon lawrence with an fyi you see that yep and mr blake then comes back to you on the 23rd of june as well
02:17:31 back to you on the 23rd of june as well as simon lawrence uh and he says not actually surprised as they seemed relatively large in the first place on principle we should stick to five percent but agree a compromise on the
02:17:42 percent but agree a compromise on the saving and at some point in the future reverse
02:17:44 reverse pass it back up the chain um is it fair to say that what mr blake was suggesting here was that you should organize
02:17:51 organize the finances so that harley's cost error would be absorbed by the tmo
02:17:59 same back up the chain so potentially yes yes and that means that ryden wouldn't lose any profit itself at all that was the idea was it yes yes and specifically he was asking you to do
02:18:11 specifically he was asking you to do that wasn't he he was asking us to do it as a project team but yes yeah but you and mr lawrence yes you're the only recipients of this email yeah now look back at your witness statement if we can paragraph 15
02:18:25 on page two you say that that you say i understand that there were errors in harley's quote for the cladding work i believe this was due to a
02:18:36 i believe this was due to a miscalculation of the size of the area to quote for it was harley's error there were discussions over whether harley would better cost i did not recall the outcome the final decision regarding whether ryden boronie of the cost would have been taken by steve blake as a director
02:18:49 been taken by steve blake as a director now i've shown you some documents and although mr blake may ultimately have made the decision uh how the cost was born on the documents we've now looked at together in the last few minutes or so do you accept that
02:19:01 few minutes or so do you accept that actually you were intimately involved in this process of what to do with the harley costing error um i was yeah we we asked harley's to give us the
02:19:13 we we asked harley's to give us the detail of their error that they made um and i think there's a there's a further email where where harley's actually sort of broke it down and and tried to explain where the error came from yeah um there
02:19:25 where the error came from yeah um there is we
02:19:26 is we we didn't we didn't dismiss it straight away that's not the kind of company we are
02:19:30 are um you know if they'd made a genuine error then we need to discuss it but but likewise we heard it out um and probably put it on the back burner until the final account was agreed
02:19:42 until the final account was agreed um is probably where the intention would be look we understand that there's a problem there we'll we'll review it later on um and i believe that's how it's left yes i
02:19:53 and i believe that's how it's left yes i mean your statement says uh it was hardly zero there were discussions over whether harley would bear the cost and i'm just putting to you that in fact you are intimately involved in those discussions yes yes now if you go to ryd409596 we
02:20:09 yes yes now if you go to ryd409596 we can see
02:20:10 can see what happened next can we have pages one and two of that email run together side by side please
02:20:22 and if we look at the bottom of page two
02:20:28 uh uh we can see mike albiston's response to you
02:20:35 to you of the 23rd of june no one else copied in
02:20:39 in um where he says hi zach i've been through
02:20:43 through my cost error on grenfell tower and he closed the following to explain what happened
02:20:52 it's page one
02:20:56 and then over the top of page two he sets out the detail of how it came about uh and in essence i'm summarizing this they
02:21:07 in essence i'm summarizing this they they for the for the acm fix they'd offered you 576 000 odd pounds but that had not included uh a figure for of about
02:21:19 uh a figure for of about 200 000 pounds for flashing smoke stops and supports for the crown whereas the original cost of the zinc did
02:21:27 did that's right isn't it i think it looks like that yeah that explains the yes that's right uh and if you look at the middle of page one and i'm sorry sorry i should just say the cost savings for acm cassette
02:21:39 the cost savings for acm cassette was given us 419 on thousand and again the error was the same but the cost used for cassette was more accurate and that meant the shortfall was for 200 was was 40 000. so they had an error of
02:21:51 was was 40 000. so they had an error of 200 000 in their own saving of two hundred thousand for a face fixed of forty thousand for the cassette
02:21:58 cassette and then if we see the next email middle of page one you pass this email onto katie barcelli on the 24th of june and you say fyi
02:22:09 on the 24th of june and you say fyi funny how their issue takes us to our saving that we offer the client on the face fixed inside knowledge perhaps and above that miss picelier comes back to you and suggests
02:22:20 suggests um to you can we go 50 50 with harley as it was their up and you respond at the top same day 24th of june probably go 50 50 on the face fixed as we would still pocket 100
02:22:31 face fixed as we would still pocket 100 000 pounds on that however the cassette i would probably offer a 75 25 50 50 would only leave us with 407 with 47
02:22:39 47 000 pounds of game now when you say there ryden would still pocket 100 000 pounds on that do you mean that that would add 100 000 pounds to ryden's profit
02:22:51 pounds to ryden's profit uh no well it means that we would still have a hundred grand worth of profit in that
02:22:57 that yeah i see okay over over and above that which had been disclosed
02:23:03 disclosed through its saving to the tmo no that would
02:23:06 would it would reduce it down to that so if we if we offered them some money back on their
02:23:11 their on their saving they provided us it would obviously reduce the margin that ryden had applied indeed i think we're saying the same thing sorry yes
02:23:23 thing sorry yes now if you go to ryd409588 this is an email a few days before from you
02:23:32 you to steve blake and simon lawrence let's just wait for it to come up on the screen
02:23:36 screen there it is
02:23:44 this is an email i'm sorry it's the same day 24th of june 2014. and
02:23:50 2014. and and uh you are here writing to simon lawrence and steve blake reporting on the error
02:23:57 the error i think and you're saying basically they're saying we have a 200 000 pound problem with face fixed and 160 000 pound problem with cassette i will try and to do the deal on the zinc turning at 5
02:24:08 zinc turning at 5 discount to get to our baseline order this is where we've already pitched it so i can't go any better three percent is the minimum we need to achieve as the performance of tender a potential revised position on the savings on the savings would be
02:24:21 savings on the savings would be and then you set them out for face fix clients saving 376 harley first off of 576 ryden expected gain
02:24:30 gain 200 000 pounds split 50 50 with harley 100 000 pound gain cassette client saving 293 000 pounds harley
02:24:41 client saving 293 000 pounds harley first off for 420 000 pounds ride an expected gain 127 000 pounds split 50 50 of harley 47 000 pound gain harley's allegedly and that's in bold there don't know what
02:24:53 and that's in bold there don't know what our savings are to the client so we can improve on these by not offering 50 50 but above would be a worst case position that i would want to go to now i've read that all to you um i just want to ask you a number of
02:25:05 um i just want to ask you a number of questions first you say um ryden's expected gain of 127
02:25:13 000
02:25:16 uh
02:25:22 sorry expected gain of 200 000 pounds uh was the profit that ryden was hoping to make for itself on top of the saving passed on to the client yep yes and if you look at the bottom of the email
02:25:33 the email you go on to say harley's allegedly and it's in bold don't know what our savings are
02:25:38 are um why did you put allegedly in bold i was just just because it was conveniently uh the figures were looking like
02:25:46 like uh the figures that we put together were you hoping that harley didn't know what savings ryden was offering to the tma
02:25:54 tma well ideally you don't want them to know no
02:25:59 and did you use the word allegedly because you suspected that they might well have known it's just a jovial comment right um okay jvoy
02:26:10 okay jvoy just there was just a a comment in an email
02:26:13 email um i mean it hardly led on to you that anything that led you to think that they might have tweaked yeah
02:26:22 now
02:26:25 i mean forty seven thousand pound game clearly wasn't going to be enough was it it's not ideal um but that's why i was laying it out so that people could make a decision
02:26:36 so that people could make a decision right
02:26:41 can we look at ryd409681 please
02:26:52 uh
02:26:57 and i think we should look at the middle email
02:27:01 email first of all there's a there's a precursor to this as we just ought to look at that actually the bottom of page one top of page two page one bottom is you write it to mark harris
02:27:15 bottom is you write it to mark harris and say you've been catching up with emails if we just look at the rest of that
02:27:20 that look at page two
02:27:26 and you are there offering the the five percent discount and if we then go besides the context of what i want to show you if you go back to page one
02:27:39 mark harris comes um back to you on the 24th of june hi zach many thanks for your response i can firmly agree with the baseline figure based on the zinc option
02:27:50 based on the zinc option with a five percent discount with regards to the other items on your list i will send a separate response in response to your other email it would comment that most of the items are acceptable but i would need to make a comment
02:28:02 but i would need to make a comment against items 10 and 12. we don't need to look at that and then he basically thanks you and apologizes um it looks from this that you had persuaded harley to accept a five percent discount on the original baseline figure for
02:28:15 on the original baseline figure for savings for the zinc cladding
02:28:19 is that is that how to how this should be read the that's the uh five percent discount on the
02:28:26 the baseline uh cladding option which was the zinc yes not a saving it was the whole scheme if it went with zinc cladding i follow
02:28:37 if it went with zinc cladding i follow um
02:28:38 um right then just help me with the next email top of page one you ran right to steve blake and simon lawrence 24th of june steve simon first part of the battle now
02:28:49 steve simon first part of the battle now we will agree to give them 10 percent of the savings back and we are quids in um what do you mean by quids in um again it's just a an email um that you know if we if we don't have
02:29:02 um that you know if we if we don't have to give them back as much as we thought we'd have more profit yeah but what could help me with quids in does that mean you recovered it all or recovered enough
02:29:09 enough what does it mean more profit i see
02:29:19 i see so does that mean that you wouldn't now have to offer them 50 but only 10 percent looking at your comparators before yeah i think i was joking in that bit i think the first part of the battle was that they've agreed to meet us somewhere
02:29:31 that they've agreed to meet us somewhere in between right i see i see okay
02:29:40 did anyone at ryden do your knowledge ever tell the tmo about these discussions no they wouldn't we wouldn't need to you wouldn't need to well this is our supply chain this is between ryden's and the
02:29:51 between ryden's and the supply chain right let's see now let's look at ryd3011661 please
02:30:02 see how this continues can i please have pages one and two up together this is an email string of the eighth and ninth of july we just need to look at
02:30:12 at i think pages one and two side by side um
02:30:15 um we start on page uh
02:30:23 oh it's not on page one but it goes over to page two this is your email
02:30:29 to mark harris of the 8th of july 2014 and you say um i'm going to struggle with the extra 15
02:30:40 i'm going to struggle with the extra 15 meter squared could we meet halfway on the face fixed with an extra 7 pounds fifty meter squared
02:30:46 squared the best i could do on cassette is an extra five pounds per meter squared this would read and then you set out the savings
02:30:52 savings and the uh and face fix saving 524 000 and cassette saving 370 000 hope this is agreeable
02:31:03 this is agreeable you see that yes uh that means or men just help me with this that harley's revised savings on cassette
02:31:14 cassette at 370 odd thousand pounds was still um higher than the figure of which the tmo had been informed only 293 368. correct i see
02:31:26 only 293 368. correct i see and that meant a a 77 odd thousand pound potential
02:31:32 potential extra if you like for ryden yes yes yes uh and then harley's revised savings on the face fixed of 524 000 was still higher than the figure
02:31:44 still higher than the figure of which tmo had been informed of 376 odd thousand and that meant a 148 000 odd uh bonus for ryden if that was the option correct yes
02:31:59 if that was the option correct yes and you then sum that up i think
02:32:05 well that's i should just show you the next email mark harris comes back to you and essentially accepts that on the 9th of july as we can see from the email on page 1 yes
02:32:16 and then if we look at the top of the first email the top of the first page zack may not to steve blake and simon lawrence this is the 9th of july you now
02:32:27 lawrence this is the 9th of july you now go back to steve blake and simon lawrence and you say fyi not of our position adds about circa 100 000 pounds to margin
02:32:39 circa 100 000 pounds to margin what do you mean about 100 000 pounds to margin
02:32:43 margin uh i think i'm just reporting the difference between the two savings based on the revised position how do you get to 100 000 pounds or
02:32:54 how do you get to 100 000 pounds or thereabouts
02:32:58 so they're at 370 on the cassette yes um and i think which adds as we established about 77 000 yeah so
02:33:10 established about 77 000 yeah so i've clearly i'm assuming i'm just rounding that up then i can only think that's the only reason i see okay so it's rounded up from 77. on too much
02:33:18 much on the cassette it appears that way yeah
02:33:25 at this stage cassette hadn't been finally selected had it i don't believe so no uh and in fact face fixed would would not
02:33:36 and in fact face fixed would would not be a hundred thousand pounds it'd be 148 000 pounds on these revised figures yeah so i'm just trying to work out why you pump for 100. maybe it looks like i've pitched it in the middle i don't know i honestly don't
02:33:47 middle i don't know i honestly don't know where that why i've come up with that figure right you can't explain no okay
02:34:01 no and i in your statement we we've seen it before that you don't you say you don't recall the outcome of the discussions about the harley error but we can see from these emails that you were very intimately involved can you explain why when you wrote your statement you
02:34:13 statement you didn't deal with these in detail i didn't i didn't know we'd reached an agreement on that um so yeah i didn't remember we'd reach an agreement
02:34:22 agreement right is that when you were shown when you were when you were preparing your state but were you not showing these emails i didn't see i didn't see that no then you've been finalized
02:34:32 in general terms do you accept this is a proposition that you personally were driving
02:34:36 driving as hard as you could for harley to bear as much of the cost as possible and for you to make as big a saving as possible i was doing my job as best as i could yeah but did that
02:34:47 as i could yeah but did that you say you were doing your job as best you could does that job include driving as hard as you could for harley to bear as much of the cost of the cladding options as possible i don't think we're driving as hard as possible
02:34:58 think we're driving as hard as possible i mean a lot of people would have just said no we're not even going to listen to your proposal so i think we approached it fairly in order to
02:35:07 order to actually have them round the table and discuss the fact that they had a tender error which in theory is is their problem um but we were willing to have that chat with them
02:35:17 with them and try and come to a compromise where we're gonna help you out um as well so i i don't think it's a case of being driving them down because otherwise you really just said
02:35:29 because otherwise you really just said no
02:35:33 let's turn to a different subject rockwool insulation
02:35:38 ryd4066 please now uh this is an email if you look at the bottom of that page from tom elliott
02:35:52 of rockwool to you on the 4th of june
02:35:58 2014. i'm so sorry you've been showing page 1. it's my fault i'd like you to look at page 2 of that run please um this is as i say an email from tom
02:36:11 um this is as i say an email from tom elliott
02:36:12 elliott at rockwool to you fourth of june dear zach i've tried calling you this morning and left you a voicemail um and then he goes on to introduce himself i work within rockwool's refurbishment and regeneration team
02:36:24 refurbishment and regeneration team etc do you recall
02:36:29 how it came about that mr elliot was trying to reach you at that time yeah i think there was some discussions in relation to um some some eco funding which the
02:36:40 to um some some eco funding which the uh client could get the benefit from um and i think simon lawrence had been dealing with it um and
02:36:51 um and that's how i think this came about um with regards to that the opportunity to perhaps
02:36:57 perhaps um secure some additional funding for the client
02:37:01 do you know how or why tom elliott was given you as the contact person at ryden to speak to on these matters i think he they need some information about scheme
02:37:12 they need some information about scheme perhaps
02:37:13 perhaps areas because i think i've responded in an email above there um yeah giving him some some information he might have needed like
02:37:24 he might have needed like areas of rain screen cladding that was going to go on the block so like a meteor square each so they could do some assessments i follow if we look at the third paragraph of mr
02:37:35 if we look at the third paragraph of mr elliot's email of the 4th of june he says
02:37:37 says all stone wool insulation comes with a euro class fire rating of a1 and therefore our systems are particularly suited to high-rise and school refurbishment in accordance with br135 and bb-100
02:37:50 br135 and bb-100 these systems also include the unique four-in-one benefits of rockwool products fire protection acoustic performance highly durability and fully recyclable did you at the time note
02:38:04 did you at the time note that paragraph did you read that and think about it no no you didn't i folded it onto uh simon who was dealing with uh dealing with
02:38:13 with those things right did you have any understanding of the building regulations or approved document b did you have any particular understanding at the time that there
02:38:25 understanding at the time that there were specific requirements in respect of fire safety for buildings in excess of 18 meters in height uh not specifically no
02:38:35 did you understand what mr elliott meant when he said there was a euro class fire rating of a1 no did you take to trouble to understand
02:38:47 no did you take to trouble to understand or to try to understand what he meant simon simon was dealing with this particular item so um it would be left with simon to deal with from the production side
02:38:59 production side okay now if we go to page one of this document
02:39:03 document or this run this is an email of the 10th of june
02:39:08 yep to you in response to your message to him and he says in the first main paragraph thanks again for the information
02:39:19 thanks again for the information i noticed on your website that you are planning on attracting eco funding to the project and thought it important to make you aware that the only insulated rain screen cladding system available at the moment which attracts eco funding is our rockwool duo
02:39:31 attracts eco funding is our rockwool duo slab
02:39:33 slab and then he says in the last sentence the system is a combination of rockwool dual density insulation and rock panel lightweight cladding both of which have superior fire ratings of euro class a1
02:39:46 of euro class a1 i i take it from your last answers that you don't you didn't have an understanding of what euro class a1 was at the time no which is why it's been forwarded on simon and you do indeed do that the same day
02:39:58 and you do indeed do that the same day in fact two minutes later fyi and if we look at his response to you we can find that not actually here it's a different document ryd407567 please
02:40:19 uh he says there's something for the harley inclusions make sure they use appropriate insulation to achieve grant funding they normally use duo slab anyway so
02:40:30 they normally use duo slab anyway so shouldn't be an issue what did you understand mr lawrence to mean there by harley inclusions um when we issued out uh an instruction
02:40:42 when we issued out uh an instruction uh we we try and give it a bit of detail and put some some items that we'd like them to include in there in their order package and that normally
02:40:53 in their order package and that normally comes out discussions with the contracts manager and the the project manager uh from a technical perspective to see if we can try and pick everything up right did
02:41:05 right did you have any idea about what the appropriate insulation might be in order to achieve grant funding no so did it surprise you that mr lawrence was asking you to ensure that
02:41:18 lawrence was asking you to ensure that uh harley used appropriate insulation um he's just making a comment to make sure we pick it up
02:41:30 sure we pick it up when we're when we're placing the order to
02:41:33 to to try and make sure those discussions are ahead
02:41:41 does that mean that in the order package you would include rockwool in order to get eco funding i think it was explored um i know i think simon took it further
02:41:53 um i know i think simon took it further and explored it but i i don't think we went down that route right
02:42:01 why did mr lawrence ask you and nobody else indeed looking at this email to ensure that harley were using an appropriate insulation to achieve grant funding
02:42:13 insulation to achieve grant funding um just because we we would be the ones in uh surveying to to list it out uh in an instruction when we
02:42:20 we when we issued a letter of intent for example we try and put things in there that we wanted to put in their package so it was just a memoir
02:42:29 memoir let's remember this as a potential item that needs to go in there do you remember whether you did i don't remember if we did i don't know whether we went down that route right
02:42:40 whether we went down that route right can we look at ryd405697 please
02:42:56 uh this is an email
02:43:01 of the
02:43:05 this is an email the email of the 4th of june i started off with this this morning with you this is the introductory email from tom elliott i just want to look at a different
02:43:14 different subject in it he attaches two documents uh red art silicone data sheet and facades guide 2013
02:43:27 guide 2013 when you got this email from mr elliot on the 4th of june did you look at this facade's guide no i would have just forwarded it on to simon
02:43:41 did you have any discussions with simon lawrence about the facades guide no
02:43:51 no can i ask you to look at ryd409724 please
02:43:56 please page two
02:44:04 page two now this is an email from you uh to mark harris copied to mike albertson and simon lawrence of the 18th of june 2014. now it's an
02:44:16 of the 18th of june 2014. now it's an email we looked at earlier on in the context of the pricing uh and i didn't show this to you because we were going to come back to it as we now do
02:44:28 as we now do and just to be to be clear about what it is um it's your email to him and the um comments in red are
02:44:40 comments in red are his response i just want to focus with you if i can at item 12 we can see that you did suggest to harley there rock will do a slab insulation to be used to ensure eco funding secured on
02:44:52 used to ensure eco funding secured on the project but just pausing there is that where the harley inclusions happened that's right yes a checklist there where we send it to them this is what we want in your right okay that clarifies that then yeah um
02:45:05 okay that clarifies that then yeah um and here we can see his response uh i'm sorry i should ask you when you did write paragraph 12 to to
02:45:16 when you did write paragraph 12 to to mark harris did simon lawrence tell you to do that uh yeah that's from the email that we saw before that that was that was the instruction to you to make the inclusion yeah i see now he you can see what's said in red
02:45:28 now he you can see what's said in red yes
02:45:29 yes mr harris his response is we have been contacted by rockwool in this regard they advise that unless they supply the cladding panels rails and insulation as a complete system eco funding would not be available to the client on this
02:45:41 not be available to the client on this project
02:45:42 project whilst we are happy to use rockwell as an insulation product our bid is based on using raynaud panels and aluminium rails from a supplier yet to be confirmed i'm not sure where we go with this
02:45:56 not sure where we go with this uh now we can see that mr harris had made clear there that rock wall panels and insulation had not been quoted for by
02:46:04 by harley because its bid was based on on raynor bond is it is it fair to say that he was really just leaving that with you to decide what to do next he was even that with with ryden's to um
02:46:16 he was even that with with ryden's to um to see if if they are going down the eco funding route what do we do um so yeah right how do you fail to appreciate that harley's bid was based on renault bond
02:46:29 harley's bid was based on renault bond um no what that's saying there is it's a complete system um so in order to get eco funding uh you have to use
02:46:40 their cladding panels and rails as well as the insulation rather than using a different panel
02:46:49 so i think that's that's the issue there that
02:46:53 that that's what he's raising basically was there a problem with harley quoting for the complete system
02:47:00 system uh the duo slab and rock hall system uh not as far and away because he says our bid is based on using rainer bond panels yeah was there any reason why you couldn't go back to him and say well i know that but
02:47:12 back to him and say well i know that but can
02:47:13 can i please have a quote now for rockwell and dio's lab yeah we could have done um i'm not sure i say well we didn't i think i would have forwarded that question on um to a production to ask you know
02:47:27 um to a production to ask you know where do we go with this so um and seek advice so
02:47:31 advice so yeah right um
02:47:38 did you have any understanding at the time about the requirements for insulation to be a material of limited combustibility um well not
02:47:50 um well not in a great deal i wasn't there for sort of technical knowledge i was there to cost report so we relied heavily on our designers and our production
02:48:01 our designers and our production staff for that kind of information did you understand at the time that unless a particular product had been tested for use over 18 meters in the precise configuration and precise materials set
02:48:13 configuration and precise materials set up
02:48:14 up that was to be used on the building or had a desktop study or holistic engineering um then it had to be of limited combustibility i didn't know that
02:48:24 know that did you understand that rockle was a material of limited combustibility but rs 5000 which was the insulation that was to be
02:48:33 was to be um was to be used was uh was not no you didn't
02:48:45 no you didn't now sticking with this document we can see that you pass this on to mr lawrence if you look back at page one
02:49:03 and
02:49:06 you say to him middle email on page one nothing too surprising in here do you want to discuss item 12 with them knight until what we've been looking at the da slab discussion
02:49:17 the da slab discussion and he comes back to you and says looks like we may have a problem with this exclamation marks not harley's part but the funding part and you go back to him and say and we
02:49:28 and you go back to him and say and we can't even increase the savings on the cladding now to help out as they are true
02:49:31 true savings what do you mean by that what did you mean by true savings um just to the savings of uh eroded away um so that now there's not
02:49:43 eroded away um so that now there's not much difference between the savings offered to the client and the savings um getting from subcontractor so there's a decision to be made right on that what further action before did you take any further action yourself
02:49:55 did you take any further action yourself to follow up the use of rockwool insulation on grandfather i didn't take any further action no um and i don't know where the further discussions went after that and we know that ultimately rock hall
02:50:06 and we know that ultimately rock hall wasn't used you know that yes yes yes uh now look at h a r four zero sorry five zeros three nine seven please
02:50:22 seven please let's just round off a particular point we've been looking at together this is the envelope package given to harley this is appendix a and i think this formed appendix a to
02:50:33 and i think this formed appendix a to the loi didn't it yes yes that's the full scope which had the figure in it which was it was uh was fully authorized we
02:50:44 was it was uh was fully authorized we saw that earlier this morning can we look at page four under qualifications uh and
02:50:56 this is an item five a reference to the us lab it says rook will rock wool duo slab insulation to be used to ensure eco funding secured on the project
02:51:07 project um were you aware that appendix a had actually
02:51:10 actually contained rockwool duo slab to be used to ensure eco funding from the outset well yeah we we put that in there so yeah i mean at this stage the design is still uh ongoing
02:51:24 the design is still uh ongoing and the design's still to be developed so um
02:51:28 so um yeah this is still this is this is setting out a baseline uh for their package um knowing that we're we're giving them the design
02:51:38 design they've got to go forward and design it accordingly so right and i think in terms of the chronology this document is it comes in in the in july 2014 which was after the
02:51:49 after the discussion about the inclusions or around about that time yeah so is this where eventually the inclusions end up
02:51:56 end up correct yeah so it goes into the instruction yes i see
02:52:05 this remained i think a qualification in the loi
02:52:12 all along was there any discussion about removing it no do you know why that is um no okay
02:52:25 can i then turn to a completely different topic which is the subject of windows
02:52:35 and mr chairman i think i shall not finish this topic by lunch i might but we'll we'll see
02:52:43 can i ask you first to please turn to art four zeros two four six six
02:52:53 now this is an email if you look at the bottom
02:52:56 bottom sorry page two please of that i think is where the email run starts it's an email at the bottom of the page of the 18th of june 2014
02:53:07 the page of the 18th of june 2014 uh where um twitchin lim of artelia writes to you copy to simon lawrence
02:53:14 lawrence and others at artelia subject alternative window manufacturers dear zach
02:53:20 zach can you in studio e please look at alternative window manufacturers for grenfell tower we believe that the saving could be quite substantial by changing the window manufacturer please let us know and you respond to that same day a
02:53:32 and you respond to that same day a little bit later in the morning high treaty and our tender bit is based on metal technology windows the sizes of the windows restrict the manufacturers we could use an area we could look at which was previously identified by ourselves is
02:53:44 previously identified by ourselves is simplifying the arrangement of the windows
02:53:46 windows simon will discuss this with studio e and our cloning contractor in due course if we go to page one we can see ms lim's response
02:53:57 response she says hi zach thanks for getting back to me as you are aware we are still over budget therefore any suggestions on savings
02:54:04 savings are welcome and and then the next email up you say we will do our best and she says thank zack now is it fair to say that the budget was the driver here as well
02:54:18 yeah and that's because both ryden and artelia were looking for any possible route to drive the costs down on this project yeah we were obviously clearly still over the the clients budget
02:54:30 over the the clients budget so they wanted to see if there's anything else we could do yes
02:54:36 and did you in fact investigate the simplification of the window arrangements as as asked uh well as i said simon was going to look at it with designers and get back to them right do you know what the upshot of that was
02:54:47 what the upshot of that was no i mean simplifying the arrangement could be uh just changing the the openers or whatever so um i'm not sure right
02:55:00 let's um sticking with a similar topic or same topic but really but at a different um a different period uh ryd3038603 please
02:55:12 uh ryd3038603 please this is now the spring of 2015.
02:55:24 38603 now this is an email from ray bailey of harley to you copied to simon lawrence mark harris and steve blake and others hi zach
02:55:39 and steve blake and others hi zach and the subject is the internal trimming out
02:55:43 out still haven't been able to track down the fitter who did the internals at ferrier
02:55:47 ferrier however i have spoken to our estimator who prepared our quotation his email of the third of february 2014 to katie porcellia gave a price of hundred and 329 five pounds for the
02:55:58 of hundred and 329 five pounds for the supply
02:55:59 supply and installation of ten millimeter thick upvc window boards this price was calculated on a rate on rate based on the actual historic costs we incurred for this work at ferrier point
02:56:11 point whilst this project may be a little simpler i don't think we can meet your cost plan of 80 000 pounds thank you for the invitation to look at this element but fully understand that you must place this elsewhere
02:56:22 elsewhere now if we look at your response to mr bailey of the same day at the top of page one
02:56:28 page one he you say to him ray thanks for looking into this
02:56:32 into this we will continue to source elsewhere now if we then move on to a different email we'll move back in time go to ryd3086654
02:56:46 time go to ryd3086654 this is an email we've seen before this morning mr maynard um it's katie barcelia's email of the 11th of march to steve blake where she's talking about cost savings we looked at it
02:57:00 if you go
02:57:06 yes that's it in the middle of the page she says to him um the bill figure is incorrect resulting in our tender figure being 212 000 pounds lower than it should be i think we will recover this from harley's
02:57:17 think we will recover this from harley's by taking the timber window reveals out of their package you remember that we looked at that this morning um so we've got we've got that in march 2014
02:57:28 2014 we've got the discussion with mr bailey of harley in april 2015 [Music]
02:57:35 [Music] um between march 14 and april 15 do you remember whether ryden at some point in that period decided to take out the timber window reveals and use p
02:57:46 the timber window reveals and use p upvc instead of timber um i don't remember when i imagine there were some design discussions over it um and i know the final decision was
02:57:58 um and i know the final decision was they were going to go upvc do you know who was involved in those discussions um not specifically no but it would be production-led and design-led so
02:58:09 production-led and design-led so were you involved in coming to a final cost for that substitution yes you were and what was the saving do you remember even roughly nine
02:58:26 and if we could look at ryd30 is 29327
02:58:36 [Applause] actually mr chairman the document is not terribly complicated but but a little bit more complicated than will last
02:58:44 last two and a half minutes till one o'clock would you rather stop at that point i think it's probably sensible to stop at that point otherwise we will certainly go beyond one o'clock well let's stop there then very good mr maynard we're gonna have a break now so
02:58:55 maynard we're gonna have a break now so that we can all get some lunch uh we'll resume at two o'clock please and not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with the refurbishment
02:59:06 refurbishment all right thank you very much go with the ocean please
02:59:20 thank you very much two o'clock please
02:59:41 you