Afternoon session of evidence from Rydon site manager Danny Osgood, focusing on oversight of external cladding installation, fire safety inspection procedures, and internal window reveal works at Grenfell Tower.
00:00:13 all right would you like to ask mr osgood come back please
00:00:35 [Applause] all right ready to carry on with rose good absolutely yes thank you mr scrange yes great thank you so i'm now going to ask you some questions about your work in overseeing
00:00:47 questions about your work in overseeing the installation of the cladding to the exterior of the building um were you given any particular instructions in relation to inspection of the works
00:00:59 inspection of the works yeah ryden has a snagging procedure where it goes firstly to the contractor doing the works then to the site manager and then
00:01:11 then to the site manager and then obviously
00:01:12 obviously clerker works building control right so that was the that was your understanding of the procedure and was that written down in a kind of written policy or procedure you were provided with or was that just your knowledge of
00:01:23 with or was that just your knowledge of how they worked um i think it's just my knowledge from fitting experience yeah that was the way it was yeah did you ever get the
00:01:34 way it was yeah did you ever get the chance to discuss the facade package with mr lawrence when you started on the project um not in great detail but then i didn't see any reason
00:01:45 see any reason to do that yeah i mean i had all these drawings and specs yeah or mr o'connor did you ever have a specific discussion with him when you started about the cladding package
00:01:56 you started about the cladding package not that i remember but i'm sure we would have had a conversation around the works what about representatives of harley did you speak to them when you arrived on yeah
00:02:07 on yeah you know you've got to work very closely with the contractor yeah so that everyone understands what needs to be done yeah and who would it have been at harley that you were having day-to-day contact with
00:02:18 day-to-day contact with and i believe it was tough um he was the sort of lead fixer yeah um and then i think it was ben ben bailey i think yeah he would come
00:02:30 bailey i think yeah he would come periodically as well yeah now you refer to taff did you know at the time that they were subcontracted um and that they worked for a company called osborne berry yeah i didn't know them
00:02:42 osborne berry yeah i didn't know them did you assume that they worked directly for harley at the time yeah that was my knowledge of them i'd not have
00:02:48 not have had any previous experience with them so did you ever receive any briefing on fire safety when you arrived on the project
00:02:57 project uh there was a fire risk assessment method statement on site yeah
00:03:04 site yeah um so yeah what about fire safety in relation to the inspection works you were going to be overseeing um did you ever
00:03:12 you ever have any briefing about fire issues that might arise with the external cladding no no now let's look at an email from mr lawrence to you when you arrive
00:03:23 from mr lawrence to you when you arrive this is ryd3039965
00:03:31 and if we could blow that up a little bit so this is on the 27th of april 2015 when you first arrived on the project and mr lawrence says morning danny
00:03:42 danny i understand you've landed at grenfell okay this morning and are getting your head around harley's facade package in the cladding i've filed all of the information that we have drawings and material info in
00:03:53 we have drawings and material info in the following location and then there's a
00:03:55 a link i'm sure it'll take a few days or so to get to grips with it so happy reading
00:04:02 reading please pay particular attention to the fire break spec and insulation guide to ensure that they install correctly before any building control inspection do you see that there i do yes now pausing there can you
00:04:15 i do yes now pausing there can you recall what was in the um the location in the link that he provided you with there um there was he that basically is a
00:04:26 um there was he that basically is a folder on the m drive and within that folder and there's subfolders and basically all the information regarding the project can be found in there
00:04:37 there right so were there drawings within that there was drawings um and did you read and scrutinize those drawings after receiving the yeah we also we also had a uh set
00:04:51 the yeah we also we also had a uh set uh a hard set on site as well yeah was that a shared set or a set that you had yourself it was a shared set yeah it was in the office um and it was a complete set of drawings so you
00:05:02 a complete set of drawings so you you know anything you needed to know you'd be looking there and what about materia materials information and specifications was that in the link as well
00:05:12 as well um it quite possibly was high from memory i don't remember right so you can't recall whether you had details of the type of insulation and cladding panels
00:05:23 insulation and cladding panels to be installed um not that i remember we've already looked at a separate document you were sent which told you about the raina bond panel
00:05:31 panel yeah but you can't remember anything else anything other than that and then he says in that last part of the email please pay particular attention to the fire break spec and insulation guide first of all what did you take him
00:05:43 guide first of all what did you take him to mean
00:05:44 to mean by the word fire break when saying fire break spec and fire break um again fitted between floors
00:05:53 floors um and adjacent walls um so yeah it's very important to get that right um because building control will see it will look at it um and he just
00:06:04 just he won't entertain it unless it's properly done did you understand that to mean
00:06:08 mean cavity barriers between flaws uh i think they're one and the same and that's what i'm asking you he's using the word fire break yeah did you understand that to be a
00:06:20 yeah did you understand that to be a cavity barrier or something else yeah from my experience they both mean the same thing okay um can we have a look at that what that might have looked like
00:06:31 at that what that might have looked like the fire break spec if we turn to sil50228
00:06:42 so this is the siderise
00:06:46 rh and rv cavity barriers for use in external envelope or fabric of buildings so this is what we think might have been the spec that would be available at the time
00:06:56 time do you recall seeing that i do remember seeing it yes yeah and if we could just scan down a few pages just to see the type of information we get there they're dealing with open
00:07:07 we get there they're dealing with open state horizontal cavity barriers and also side arise rb vertical cavity barriers do you see that there on the left
00:07:14 left yes and we've got a little diagram on the right and if we just look at page two
00:07:20 two there i think we see a little bit more about the open state horizontal cavity barriers
00:07:28 and then if we can go to page three
00:07:33 there's some more information so do you recall seeing information like that at the time yeah i i do recall seeing it but i didn't study study in any depth
00:07:46 but i didn't study study in any depth did you pay particular attention to this guide
00:07:50 guide when you were looking at the cavity barriers and whether they were installed correctly on site um i don't remember doing that um i do
00:08:01 um i don't remember doing that um i do remember
00:08:01 remember the cavity barriers um and i from my personal experience it was from what i could see very well done i mean uh
00:08:12 done i mean uh you know but you weren't checking sorry you could finish and well i was i was checking every detail of that uh cavity barrier um so
00:08:24 uh cavity barrier um so i found little to nothing uh in my opinion it was a good install yeah when you say you you were checking were you using
00:08:34 you using the cider eyes literature to help you understand what you needed to be checking for at the time no
00:08:43 and we saw that mr lawrence said please pay particular attention to the fire break spec does that mean that you didn't pay particular attention to it or
00:08:54 particular attention to it or um you did at one point but not another looked at it um but whether i fully digested it i don't think i did can we look at the uh what we think might be the insulation
00:09:06 uh what we think might be the insulation guide he's referring to if we bring this up cel6013
00:09:16 do you recall seeing this when you started on the project i believe i did yes yeah and again did you pay particular attention to this
00:09:27 did you pay particular attention to this insulation guide when you were inspecting the work on the exterior um not in depth no at page 14 of this there are some
00:09:39 at page 14 of this there are some installation guidelines if we can look at that
00:09:43 at that do you see there there's ins installation guidelines can you see that i see that yeah can you remember reading that at the time of the project
00:09:54 time of the project no do you see on the right hand column just before the heading selection of fastness there's a paragraph that says in all cases the joints of the insulation boards should be taped with a self-adhesive aluminium rainscreen foil
00:10:07 self-adhesive aluminium rainscreen foil tape
00:10:07 tape with a minimum width of 75 millimeters do you remember reading that i don't know so you you didn't check this guide to see what it told you about the installation of
00:10:19 it told you about the installation of the insulation no and can you explain why not why wouldn't you have done that given mr lawrence's email and i believe i i looked at it um but
00:10:31 and i believe i i looked at it um but again
00:10:33 again i didn't digest the entire thing yeah completely now you've described in your statement that your main role was to oversee the installation of the cladding on the
00:10:44 installation of the cladding on the exterior
00:10:45 exterior and you describe the inspection process if we can look at paragraph four of your witness statement and just look at what you say there and i just want to pick it up in the third line
00:10:57 want to pick it up in the third line so you say that i had previously worked for a company that fitted cladding and glazing
00:11:01 glazing between 2001 and 2005 and so using that experience and considering the drawings and specification provided i would walk through every floor on every elevation and check that the
00:11:12 every elevation and check that the insulation was secured with the correct amount of fixings to the main concrete structure and that it was a tight fit with no gaps i would check that the rails had the correct amount of anchor bolts
00:11:24 correct amount of anchor bolts and they sat in the correct distance from the face of the building i would also check that the fire break was fitted on secure hangers which were bolted to the main structure some of the work had already started
00:11:36 some of the work had already started i believe to the top the top two floors were complete and then i want to pick it up at what you say at paragraph six as well you say i did not have any direct involvement with the installation
00:11:49 direct involvement with the installation this was done by the subcontractor harley i only checked it in the way described above working down the building harley would inform me once they completed the installation and had carried out their own snagging
00:12:01 and had carried out their own snagging checks to one floor at a time i would then go to the relevant floor and carry out my checks i would check that the installation was consistent with the works above and to the standard ready to hand to the clerk of works
00:12:13 hand to the clerk of works once the clerk of works building control had signed off the floor the panels were fitted and we moved down to the next floor both the clerk of works and building control mentioned that it was a good
00:12:24 control mentioned that it was a good install
00:12:25 install so you've helpfully summarized for us um what your work involved in terms of inspecting the installation just pausing there on approximately how many floors
00:12:36 many floors and had harley completed the installation before you left the site on the 24th of july 2015
00:12:45 oh that's a good question and we went down
00:12:48 down the block um down to the mezzanine area which is the gym i believe and then we couldn't carry on any further
00:12:59 further so yeah it was at that point i was asked to
00:13:02 to have a look inside so when you got there the top two floors were complete i think is what you say and then by the time you left you were getting down to those lower floors is
00:13:14 getting down to those lower floors is that a fair summary uh yeah the top two floors were complete to the
00:13:19 to the point where um they were ready for inspection yeah so an awful lot of the cladding is installed
00:13:27 installed while you're there on site is that correct yeah
00:13:33 and on site day to day on site was it the osborne berry installers that you were dealing with um on a daily basis yes i think it was baz and taff is that correct yes that's
00:13:44 baz and taff is that correct yes that's correct yeah did and i think you said you met ben bailey did you meet any other representatives of harley on site um i don't recall [Music]
00:13:55 [Music] did you ever raise any concerns with harley about compartmentation or cavity barriers based on your inspections and was harley inspecting
00:14:06 inspections and was harley inspecting the work
00:14:07 the work as well were they checking their own work absolutely yes we wouldn't inspect until they've done that
00:14:15 that yeah and who at harley was doing that um taff being the lead um fixer um he would
00:14:26 um fixer um he would he would notify me i mean i'd be watching closely but once he'd done and completed his snags it would then hand it to me so it was tough checking the work
00:14:37 the work were you ever aware of anyone else i mean
00:14:40 mean they act half actually works for osborne barry but i appreciate you didn't know that at the time were you aware of anyone within harley itself
00:14:47 itself checking the work before it got handed over to you not that i'm aware of no did you ever have any cause for concern about the thoroughness of the harley inspections
00:14:59 thoroughness of the harley inspections or the osborne berry inspections no um as i said before um i found that the installation to be a very good one um
00:15:09 um i remember going round the top two floors
00:15:12 floors um and thinking i haven't got enough snags on this sheet i'm going to do it again i know that sounds terrible but i'm just trying to emphasize that it was a very good install yeah
00:15:27 very good install yeah did anyone within ryden say simon lawrence or simon o'connor ever checked your work of inspecting the works were you ever overseen in terms of that process absolutely the process
00:15:38 absolutely the process uh you know you'd have to document it it would have to go in the file um you know and then and and like any other document for example uh a sign off by
00:15:49 sign off by the clerker works or building control it would all be held on file fire yeah did they ever raise any concerns about the thoroughness of your inspections no no no i remember
00:16:03 no no no i remember now we know you've told us in paragraph four that you would walk through every floor on every elevation and check that the insulation was secured with the correct amount of fixings to the structure it was a tight fit with no
00:16:14 the structure it was a tight fit with no gaps
00:16:15 gaps can we just turn to an email this is four two ryd30420 nine one
00:16:34 so i'm looking for an email uh from simon lawrence to you and simon o'connor yes it's that top email
00:16:42 email this is the 20th of may 2015 and i want to look at the second paragraph
00:16:50 paragraph of what simon lawrence says he says as you can read i've told him about our quality procedures which we should be carrying out so maybe we should read the first paragraph first
00:17:02 we should read the first paragraph first please see my response below to the client energy funding broker basically in order to receive funding for the external wall installation which harley's are installing i've had to provide some information to
00:17:13 i've had to provide some information to him it's critical to the client that they achieve this funding as it could be over 100k
00:17:18 over 100k as you can read i've told him about our quality procedures which we should be carrying out whilst we always do this we aren't always the greatest on site at keeping all of the records in this case we need to be spot on in case the
00:17:29 case we need to be spot on in case the funders require it at the end in order to release funds can you also ensure the attached external works inspection sheet is used obviously you'll need to add to the
00:17:40 obviously you'll need to add to the checklist comments i've only filled in a couple as an example do you see that there i do yes so did you understand from this email that you needed to make sure these external works inspection sheets
00:17:53 these external works inspection sheets were being filled in yes now let's have a look at that this is ryd3042087
00:18:09 is that the checklist from memory yes yes so perhaps if we could just blow up the the top half of that so we can just see the
00:18:17 see the questions so um what it effectively seems to be would it be fair to say it's a tick box exercise yes to check certain things
00:18:29 yes to check certain things um so check setting out correct check fixings are installed validation check correct product is installed do you see that there i do yes yeah now um
00:18:41 i do yes yeah now um did you fill in this checklist during your inspections yeah i believe that from memory uh i believe that both uh simon and myself
00:18:52 myself that simon o'connor yeah um did it immediately right we did a walk around with the site and did you ever add to this list i mean
00:19:04 and did you ever add to this list i mean i think simon lawrence said to you in the covering email you know i've filled in a couple of the lines but you might want to
00:19:09 want to expand it did you ever expand the categories absolutely well as i said with the um with the cladding um from past
00:19:20 with the cladding um from past experience you would have maybe two or three of those pages all with issues that had to be rectified and then you'd take it off one at a time when it was
00:19:31 take it off one at a time when it was completed and done properly in harley's case there was so little um that i could pick up you say there was so little you could
00:19:43 you say there was so little you could pick up just taking this in stages does that mean
00:19:46 that mean that there was in fact a checklist produced with lots and lots of lines on it of things to check yeah well you'd fill it in by hand yeah on various aspects and did you fill
00:19:58 yeah on various aspects and did you fill in
00:19:59 in that checklist yourself during the inspections yes i did yeah and where did you store the completed checklists it would be in the file on site right
00:20:10 it would be in the file on site right along with uh you know building controls documentation clerk works so on and so forth yeah
00:20:18 now i just want to ask you a little bit about inspection of the insulation um so when you were overseeing the installation of the insulation onto the concrete is it right you walked
00:20:29 onto the concrete is it right you walked through each floor on every elevation following completion of the work uh yes as i said we did two floors at a time
00:20:38 time we wouldn't fit the panels until it was inspected by clerker works and then once he'd okayed it signed it we'd then close
00:20:49 he'd okayed it signed it we'd then close that off
00:20:49 that off and then drop down to the next two floors i see so just to be clear does that mean that clark of works would see the insulation and the cavity barrier absolutely and then you wouldn't put the aluminium
00:21:02 and then you wouldn't put the aluminium panels on until they had seen what was underneath and signed and signed it off correct yeah i see and at that first stage when you've just got the insulation and the cavity
00:21:13 got the insulation and the cavity barriers on and focusing on the insulation what were you actually checking for when you were doing your inspections there's quite a lot of a lot of things
00:21:24 there's quite a lot of a lot of things that you'd be looking for you know fixings being probably one of the more important that they're
00:21:32 they're they're in the right centers uh the right distance um and also um you know with with the uh rock wool or sorry the insulation
00:21:43 insulation and fixings to that and making sure that it was properly secured right so it's really predominantly about the fixings is that right yeah and it's the overall
00:21:55 is that right yeah and it's the overall um
00:21:56 um you know there's so many things that could be wrong with the installation um i'm just off the top of my head yeah trying to trying to think of exactly what they are yeah but there is
00:22:07 exactly what they are yeah but there is a process yeah now i think we just looked at it and i think you confirmed that you weren't aware at this time of the requirement in the celetex rs 5000
00:22:18 5000 specification guide that joints of the insulation board should be taped with a self-adhesive aluminium rainscreen foil tape that was what you just said a minute ago do you agree
00:22:30 do you agree um can we just have a look at a picture from dr lane's report at this point if we go to blas 608 page 35.
00:22:49 and if we can blow that up a little bit now there we're seeing some insulation that's been installed on the columns aren't we there and we can see that someone has used foil tape
00:23:00 foil tape across the joints of the insulation do you see that there yes was that something that you were looking out for
00:23:08 for on site were you were you checking that foil
00:23:11 foil um had been installed like that on this picture
00:23:14 picture uh yeah from memory sorry so it's a while ago but yes i believe so yeah and what about the edges there of the insulation did you ever think to
00:23:25 of the insulation did you ever think to question or query why no foil tape was ever been put put down the
00:23:31 down the the edges i don't remember to be honest you don't remember so you don't recall ever having any conversations with anyone about it i don't remember having any conversations no okay
00:23:47 now did you yourself ever take any steps to examine the extent to which the insulation product complied with the requirements of the building regulations no now we already saw that in your
00:24:02 no now we already saw that in your witness statement you said at paragraph five that the materials used appeared to be commonly used materials in the industry now with reference to that comment we know that the insulation used was
00:24:15 know that the insulation used was um well here the main installation was celatex
00:24:18 celatex rs 5000 were you aware that it was celetex rs5000 at the time uh not specifically no i mean as far as i was aware it was insulation
00:24:29 i was aware it was insulation it was going on a building and then it should be the approved one or the one specified so would you have had an awareness that it was a celetex product that was being installed no
00:24:44 did you ever check the specification to see what insulation had been specified uh yeah and uh as far as i'm aware
00:24:52 aware that's that's what was inspect
00:24:56 i see but i think you said you didn't know it was a celetex product i don't know if you checked the specification wouldn't you have found that
00:25:04 that out uh i i didn't know if there was a difference between rockwool or celetex um i i hadn't been trained in any anything like that but just to be clear
00:25:17 anything like that but just to be clear did you ever check the specification to see whether it was a celetex insulator that was specified or some other
00:25:26 other insulation
00:25:32 okay did you ever see um sorry just before i get to that was all of the insulation branded that was installed on site i mean i think here look we're seeing
00:25:45 i mean i think here look we're seeing across the foil face there's no branding although we can see down the side there's some celetex branding do you have a recollection of whether the insulation that was being
00:25:57 of whether the insulation that was being installed was branded on the foil face uh i don't remember to be honest you don't remember really don't no
00:26:06 did you ever see any other insulation product being installed on the facade other than the celatex product no no it's just just that what about kingspan cool therm k15
00:26:19 what about kingspan cool therm k15 were you ever aware of a kingspan product being installed no
00:26:26 so you can't help us as to where on the tower k15
00:26:29 tower k15 the kingspan product might have been installed i'm afraid not though that was not something you were checking um as i say i didn't complete the entire
00:26:40 um as i say i didn't complete the entire block um came down a certain distance um and then it was put on hold wouldn't part of your job have been to check
00:26:50 check that the insulation that harley's are installing is the same as the insulation that's been specified for the project absolutely yeah yeah as far as i was aware that
00:27:01 aware that that was correct but what checks did you actually carry out to satisfy yourself that that was the case again we we had a specification
00:27:12 we we had a specification and we went through that both myself taff
00:27:17 taff and we checked everything as far as i'm aware but if you didn't know it was a celetex product then how can you have been checking that the right product was used
00:27:29 and i don't know were you aware that during your time on the project on the 26th of may 2015
00:27:40 the project on the 26th of may 2015 96 sheets of k-15 were ordered by harley from a company called sig for delivery on the 4th of june 2015. no it's not aware
00:27:55 was it your job to know about what products and materials were arriving on site
00:28:03 site um yes i mean
00:28:08 any any change in the material i would have noticed straight away i would have spotted that straight away and then i would have asked the questions but uh from from memory i don't i didn't see
00:28:19 uh from from memory i don't i didn't see any
00:28:20 any change in the materials i see is that because it just all looked the same yeah because it was a an insulation board with a foil face yeah so you didn't think there was any change going on
00:28:31 change going on no
00:28:39 were you aware that the kingspan product had not been specified in the main specification for the product for the project as i say i i
00:28:50 for the project as i say i i i wasn't aware were you aware at the time just in general that k15 was a phenolic
00:28:57 phenolic insulation product i don't know sorry
00:29:04 so you didn't ever have any discussions with anybody on the project about the suitability of using the k15 no product i'm aware of now had you ever used that product on any
00:29:15 had you ever used that product on any other projects you've been involved in what kingspoon yeah the kingspan insulation in particular k-15 had you ever used it on any other projects you've been involved in um
00:29:28 projects you've been involved in um from memory i i know the name kingspan but whether i'd used it before or not i'm not entirely sure
00:29:40 entirely sure do you know whether the clerk of works was ever made aware that there was a kingspan product being used or building control would they have ever been aware that there was a kingspan
00:29:51 been aware that there was a kingspan product being used not that i'm aware no
00:29:59 cavity barriers now you refer in a number of places in your witness statement we looked at paragraph four for example to fire breaks when you talk about fire breaks or human
00:30:10 when you talk about fire breaks or human and cavity barriers in that part of your statement
00:30:12 statement yes
00:30:14 yes [Applause]
00:30:17 and you you tell you told us at paragraph five that the fire break was fitted between each floor and between each flat
00:30:23 each flat and it was intended to compartmentalize between each floor and each flat did anyone ever tell you on the project that the fire safety measures in grenfell tower depended on a high degree
00:30:35 grenfell tower depended on a high degree of compartmentation
00:30:38 no what steps did you take during your inspections to ensure that cavity barriers were correctly positioned and installed within the facade
00:30:52 um there were obviously drawings um you know and my my role would be to go up um
00:31:03 my role would be to go up um you know measure the distance uh for uh between the back and the the front of it um
00:31:11 it um and just generally um you know check that it was in place secure and it wasn't going to go anywhere
00:31:21 can we look at some subcontractor progress meeting minutes this is
00:31:30 har50414 so this is dated the 28th of april 2015 a subcontractor progress meeting minutes and we can see that you're in
00:31:41 minutes and we can see that you're in there and present from the the list of people present do you see that there i do yeah and if we can go to item so this is
00:31:49 this is april 2015 if we go to item 6.03 at page three
00:31:56 it says there bb would that be ben bailey
00:32:00 bailey do you think um bb to issue elevations showing positions of fire break on all elevations 2do
00:32:13 would that be ben bailey i believe so you believe so yeah and d.o would that be you
00:32:18 be you yes did he ever issue elevations showing the position of fire breaks on all the elevations um i believe
00:32:33 um i believe he must have done because we had full set of drawings so i i don't actually specifically remember receiving it what we've never seen in the drawings is any full-scale
00:32:44 any full-scale elevations do you know an elevation drawing absolutely yeah it shows you the full face exactly we haven't seen any elevations showing the position of the fire breaks on all the elevations
00:32:57 elevations um sorry it's quite a while ago but okay i do believe there was okay
00:33:05 now further down page three at item 9.01 it says windows and firebreaks being fitted to the north east and west elevations do you see that
00:33:17 east and west elevations do you see that there i do yeah
00:33:21 so do we take it from that that fire breaks i.e cavity barriers are at this point being fitted to the north east and west elevations yes yes
00:33:32 and west elevations yes yes can you help us understand why the cavity barriers were being fitted but before
00:33:38 before harley had sent elevation drawings indicating where to install the fire breaks
00:33:46 breaks um i can't
00:33:50 but i would i would assume that from experience um the fitters knowingly um would fit in the right areas
00:34:02 okay below that under quality control item
00:34:05 item 10 and item 10.01 it says this agreed that joint inspections are to be carried out on elevations and signed off by
00:34:15 by cow i think that's clark of works and building control prior to covering areas with cladding d o b b j w and j h to be present do you
00:34:26 d o b b j w and j h to be present do you see that there that's correct and would the dobu to be present
00:34:30 present it is yeah did the clerk of works approve the positioning of cavity barriers on site so far as you were aware uh yes i mean he
00:34:42 aware uh yes i mean he gave us a certificate at the end of the visit
00:34:45 visit um and that would be basically saying either he was happy with it or or not
00:34:52 not okay and and you're clear are you that the clerk of works would have clearly seen where cavity barriers were being put and where charity barriers were it was all open yeah what about building control did
00:35:04 yeah what about building control did they approve the positioning of the cavity barriers so this is uh where my memory is
00:35:12 struggling a little bit um i know the importance of of having building control up there yeah and i would say 99.9 yes um but specifically i can't
00:35:25 yes um but specifically i can't quite remember okay we're going to come back to some more detailed questions about building control in a moment can we turn to another document this is
00:35:42 ryd3082733 this is a site inspection report by john rowan and partners the clerk of works that's right isn't it that's correct yes and we can see
00:35:53 that's correct yes and we can see the inspection date is the 16th of june 2015 so while while you were there and if we can look at page two and look at the second to last box headed
00:36:03 headed review site inspection log building control do you see that one one up from the bottom and we can see it says in the note section last building control site visit was the
00:36:14 last building control site visit was the same as before friday 15th may 2015. the only observation was that further details of the cladding fire breaks were required ryden to confirm if they have done this
00:36:27 ryden to confirm if they have done this do you see that there i do yes and then it says
00:36:30 it says jay white will start inspecting the cladding externally and ryden's to give one week's notice so we're particularly interested in that first comment there about the only observation from building
00:36:41 about the only observation from building control was that further details of the cladding fire breaks were required okay yes now we can see that on the 19th of june so
00:36:52 we can see that on the 19th of june so three days after this report mr o'connor emails you let's just look at that this is ryd3044168
00:37:12 and we can see there [Music]
00:37:16 [Music] as you can see in the email below the top one that john white has emailed his inspection report across and then what happens is simon o'connor sends that to you on the 19th of june and he says morning
00:37:29 on the 19th of june and he says morning danny
00:37:30 danny can you please respond to the comment about fire breaks do you see that there yes and he attaches the site inspection and that's the the inspection report that we just
00:37:41 the inspection report that we just looked at
00:37:43 looked at now did you read that attached site inspection report can you remember i can't remember to be honest um but i would have done
00:37:54 what did you understand i mean do you remember ever seeing some some minutes that said further details of the cladding firebreaks were required
00:38:03 required i don't remember no
00:38:07 do you know what details building control had asked to see in relation to the fire breaks i can't recall i really can't you have no recollection of that no now you reply
00:38:21 no now you reply on the same day let's look at this this is ryd three zeros 44204 and i want to look in the middle of page one
00:38:34 so if we look it's the second email down at 10 24 and you say hi john all queries concerning fire
00:38:45 hi john all queries concerning fire breaks were addressed and closed out building control have stated they do not need to return until we begin to hang panels do you see that there that's correct yes now can you recall sending that email
00:38:57 now can you recall sending that email that's just boosted my memory now and i believe that that was to do with some of the fire break getting wet um because the panels weren't on uh it got
00:39:09 because the panels weren't on uh it got wet
00:39:09 wet yeah so you know any fire break you know it's the last thing you want is for it to get wet because it deteriorates it and it wasn't a large section
00:39:19 section it was just a very very very small section
00:39:23 section and we replaced it immediately
00:39:27 the comment that's recorded in the clerk of works report is that further details of the cladding fire breaks were required
00:39:34 required it doesn't sound the same as saying um there's a concern about a patch being wet does it no it doesn't so can you ever recall
00:39:45 no it doesn't so can you ever recall whether
00:39:46 whether any further information was asked for by building control about the fire breaks or the cavity barrier i don't i don't remember them asking me um i know that they've
00:39:58 asking me um i know that they've requested it in that email but it's from ryden it's not from you know
00:40:04 know ryden had to supply it not me specifically yes although we can see that you're asked to to address that comment you specifically emailed the report and asked if you could
00:40:16 the report and asked if you could address it i can't remember i'm really struggling to remember that when you say here um all queries concerning fire break were
00:40:27 concerning fire break were were addressed and closed out can you help us as to what you were referring to or what you think you were referring to i believe it was that section that i told you about it getting wet right so
00:40:38 told you about it getting wet right so what what had happened in response to the building control comments
00:40:45 um so if it was that section that had gotten wet we literally took it off and replaced it right and from memory
00:40:56 and replaced it right and from memory and yeah and then you say building control have stated they do not need to return until we begin to hang panels can you recall who you spoke to at building control
00:41:09 building control oh i can't remember could it have been a man called mr hoban it could well have been john hoban would have been john yeah do you ever recall having discussions with mr hoban yeah i mean he he was
00:41:20 with mr hoban yeah i mean he he was he was quite regular on site and can you ever recall any discussion at any time you might have had with him about the cavity barriers and the discussions i remember
00:41:33 and the discussions i remember was one of um how good an in-store is um and again his his snag sheets were minor
00:41:44 and again his his snag sheets were minor um and i think this was just one occasion that he'd picked that up and he was absolutely right and we got it corrected immediately yeah do you ever recall providing any information to building control about
00:41:55 information to building control about the fire breaks no um as a site manager i you know you you'd point them in the right direction um but i wouldn't specifically
00:42:07 um but i wouldn't specifically uh give them information that uh you know
00:42:10 know he should have been supplied with anyway if he'd asked you at the time what type of um fire fire cavity barriers are these which manufacturer would you have been able to tell him
00:42:20 tell him uh no but i could have easily found out um you know got very supportive line managers so so you weren't aware at the time that these were siderised cavity barriers that were being
00:42:31 cavity barriers that were being installed
00:42:42 now is it right that building control didn't return then until august 2015 after the rainer bond acm panels had begun being installed
00:42:54 being installed yeah i'm not too sure let's just look at a document on that if we go to art404487 at page three
00:43:13 at page three so i think this is
00:43:17 a clerk of works report sorry if we just go to the the front page of this yes this is another clerk of works report and it's the 7th of august 2015.
00:43:26 2015. and then if we go back to page 3
00:43:31 and we look at that top note building control it says last building control site visit was the same as before friday 15th of may 2015. do you see that there i do yeah so it would appear from these reports
00:43:43 reports that building control hadn't visited since may
00:43:46 since may um and didn't return until august you can't help us with that
00:43:58 [Applause] now in terms of the the installation of the cavity barriers um were you aware at the time that um the harley specification had required
00:44:09 um the harley specification had required two different products to be installed a horizontal product and a vertical product firebreak yes yeah you were aware of that were you absolutely yeah
00:44:20 absolutely yeah can we look at the harley specification notes this is har409735
00:44:32 this is their specification notes dated the 3rd of march 2015
00:44:40 and we can see bottom bottom of that the page on the left hand side one liner or one item up fire breaks it says horizontal side arrives
00:44:51 it says horizontal side arrives lametherm rh 25g ventilated brakes and then vertical side arrives lamithim rv fulfill do you see that there i do yeah do you recall seeing this page this
00:45:03 recall seeing this page this specification note when you were on the project not specifically no
00:45:12 so how did you know that two different products were to be installed
00:45:20 installed uh on the project two different cavity barriers the horizontal and the vertical if you didn't see this what where did you get that from um from experience uh always uh floor slab
00:45:33 uh always uh floor slab and adjoining wall were you sorry karen were you aware that the horizontal ciderise product was different
00:45:44 different from the vertical side arise product no were you aware that the horizontal um has an expanding intumescent strip
00:45:56 has an expanding intumescent strip and so doesn't fully close the cavity whereas the vertical is effectively a solid block it doesn't inter-mess
00:46:07 sorry yes as far as i was aware they all had that
00:46:12 had that expandable strip along the front so that when a fire would take place that gap would close which is a very
00:46:23 that gap would close which is a very small gap
00:46:24 small gap and that would suggest that you hadn't read the cider eyes uh product information wouldn't it because if you had you would have realized that the the horizontal is different from the
00:46:35 horizontal is different from the vertical product and i i suppose so
00:46:44 can we look at a figure in dr lane's report again so this is blas 608 at 48. and i want to look at figure 8.52
00:47:03 and if we could zoom in on that
00:47:06 so this is looking at the installation of
00:47:10 of a cavity barrier on the column so if it's installed in the vertical installation you you agree yeah and it's we can see from the blown up little picture on the right hand side
00:47:21 up little picture on the right hand side that it's a siderise rh25 cavity barrier now that's their horizontal product their vertical product is an rvg
00:47:32 their vertical product is an rvg and this is an rh25 and were you ever aware that cavity barriers
00:47:39 barriers horizontal cavity barriers were being installed
00:47:42 installed in that way in the vertical orientation no
00:47:46 no absolutely not look if you'd seen that on site
00:47:50 on site when you were doing your inspections so this rh25 siderise product with the green strip there being installed in that way
00:47:59 that way would you have had any reason to have queried that installation looking at that photo now no
00:48:09 the other point to note about this photograph is the intumescent strip has been installed on the inside of the building
00:48:15 building where the green tape is yeah i don't i don't know what area of the building this is so this is a horizontal cavity barrier
00:48:28 so this is a horizontal cavity barrier that's been installed vertically but it's also been installed with the intermediate strip facing into the building instead of facing
00:48:36 facing away from the building that's not correct
00:48:40 correct you agree that's not correct absolutely
00:48:44 did you know thinking just about the horizontal cavity barriers did you know that they had to be installed with the intermessant strip facing outwards correct you knew that did you and you
00:48:55 correct you knew that did you and you knew that
00:48:57 knew that sorry did you know then that it was an intumescent strip that would expand i did yes i see and i i also knew that there was a certain distance from that intermittent strip to the back
00:49:09 from that intermittent strip to the back of the the panel which was a set distance and so as soon as a fire starts okay sorry closes the gap yeah i see
00:49:21 okay sorry closes the gap yeah i see but back to these vertical ones you didn't appreciate that actually what have been specified was a solid block vertical product and not
00:49:32 vertical product and not these these horizontal barriers in the vertical location
00:49:48 now cavity barriers around the windows did you yourself ever think about whether cavity barriers were required around the windows at grenfell tower
00:49:59 grenfell tower and no as we as i put in my statement we had a pre-start meeting um and sort of all parties that were involved in the works
00:50:12 involved in the works went through exactly what what needed to be done in that area did you appreciate when you were on site that there were no cavity barriers
00:50:23 that there were no cavity barriers closing the cavity around the window openings
00:50:27 openings from memory it wasn't on any drawing that it needed to be there so
00:50:34 so so was that the reason why you never raised it because it wasn't shown in the drawings
00:50:39 drawings um i didn't raise it because yeah i mean we're basically working to set a set drawing um so that you know
00:50:52 had you ever been involved in any ryden projects which had involved the installation of cavity barriers around windows well as i said uh any project i've been involved in the
00:51:04 uh any project i've been involved in the the windows always returned to the concrete structure and then it's sealed around that so
00:51:12 were you ever aware on another project that you were installing whether or not they were flush with the windows or not that you were installing something called a cavity barrier around a window
00:51:22 a window um
00:51:25 yeah i mean it would be a foam or uh you know they would foam around the frame and then they'd trim it off right can we just look at a figure in dr
00:51:37 right can we just look at a figure in dr lane's report again blas six zeros eight at page 40 and i want to look at figure 8.42
00:51:49 now what what she's helpfully done in that picture is in the blue rectangle she's indicated where the remains are of the horizontal cavity barrier do you
00:52:00 of the horizontal cavity barrier do you see that there i do yeah and we can see that that's some way above the finished floor line isn't it
00:52:10 yeah it looks like and were you aware of that on-site that the cavity barriers were being installed some distance above the floor line
00:52:19 line no absolutely not no you weren't aware of that
00:52:23 of that uh in any that i inspected um it was in the right
00:52:27 the right location and what did you think the right location was uh right at floor slab so i see but you didn't see any cavity
00:52:38 i see but you didn't see any cavity barriers
00:52:39 barriers near the windows or around the windows when you did your inspections uh no do you know whether anyone ever drew to the attention of building control
00:52:50 attention of building control that there were no cavity barriers around the windows um not but not from memory no
00:53:01 um not but not from memory no now you've talked in your statement about
00:53:04 about inspections by both the clerk of works and building control um if we can just look at paragraph six of your statement again on page one
00:53:16 in that penultimate sentence at the bottom you say once the clerk of works building control had signed off the floor
00:53:22 floor the panels were fitted and we moved down to the next floor do you see that there no i do yeah now just focusing for a moment on the clerk of works is it correct that the clerk of works
00:53:34 is it correct that the clerk of works would inspect every floor of the external facade works on every elevation yes
00:53:43 yes and is it right that you wouldn't invite the clerk of works to undertake that inspection until you were satisfied that the works complied with the designs that's correct
00:53:54 yes now in terms of building control inspections as distinct from clerk of works inspections um were you clear in your mind who were
00:54:07 um were you clear in your mind who were the clerk of works and who was building control
00:54:10 control yes now if we look at paragraph 11 of your statement on building control over the page you say this
00:54:21 over the page you say this i was present during the majority of inspections of the insulation and fire breaks by building control i would walk the inspector around the site once a floor had been completed
00:54:32 site once a floor had been completed when the inspector was happy with the work he would sign a handover certificate and that would be filed there were no issues highlighted me during the inspections and the works were signed off this meant that the aluminium panels
00:54:44 this meant that the aluminium panels could then be fitted on top to form the external cladding i would expect that ryden has copies of the inspection documents issued by building control you see that there yeah now just to be
00:54:56 you see that there yeah now just to be clear
00:54:56 clear are you saying that building control inspected
00:54:59 inspected every floor of the external facade works on every elevation before the cladding panels were installed
00:55:08 and i had to say my memory um as i said earlier um it would be something that if you don't have a sign off by building
00:55:19 if you don't have a sign off by building control um you're not going anywhere so from memory um i believe we did um but then i might be confusing that
00:55:31 um but then i might be confusing that with clerk works wouldn't that have required building control to be coming to site really rather often if they were doing it that way fortnightly and is that your memory that building control were coming fortnightly
00:55:43 control were coming fortnightly as i say uh i believe it may have been the clerical works
00:55:51 works right yeah
00:55:56 because from from experience um the clerical works obviously you do your own snagging clerker works would check it on behalf of a client and
00:56:07 would check it on behalf of a client and then once that area was complete at completion uh building control would then come in and check everything can you recall how
00:56:18 and check everything can you recall how many visits there were by building control during your time on site even just approximately
00:56:25 i can't remember to be absolutely honest with you
00:56:29 with you did you ever make any notes yourself of these visits or records um not specifically no um i would have gone in my sight diary um
00:56:41 um but apart from that no now the documents we have suggest that there was
00:56:48 there was potentially two visits certainly one on the 15th of may and possibly another on the 7th of may um but but but no more than two visits we can find in the documents
00:57:01 we can find in the documents does that strike you as correct or did you recall more visits i believe it was more
00:57:10 can we just have a look at the site visit records this is um ryden's progress report number 11.
00:57:24 art404029 so this is the progress report number 11. we've looked at a number of these today
00:57:32 today for progress 17th of april 15 to the 15th of may 15. do you see that there i do yes and then if we go within this to
00:57:41 this to item 7 on page 12
00:57:50 we see there it says building control were on site on friday the 15th of may to inspect the top three floors for insulation fire break and window installation on three elevation and has no adverse
00:58:01 on three elevation and has no adverse comments do you see that yes i do and then if we can then look at the progress reports that follow just briefly so tmo2083664
00:58:28 this is the next progress report for mid-may to mid-june 2015 and if we can look at page 15 item eight
00:58:41 we see no visits in the period do you see that there i do yes
00:58:47 and then if we look at the next one this is art
00:58:51 is art four zeros four four one five so this is
00:59:04 four zeros four four one five so this is progress report number 13 which is from mid-june to mid-july 2015 and if we go to page 16 item eight
00:59:17 it says building control no visits in period do you see that there in the middle of the page yes i do yeah and you can take it from me i don't think we need to turn it up but the next one number 14 which for the transcript is a rt404512
00:59:31 which for the transcript is a rt404512 page eleven item eight also says the same building control no visits in the period so that takes us up to the end of your time on site so would you agree that on the basis of
00:59:43 so would you agree that on the basis of ryden's own site progress records it would appear that mr
00:59:48 that mr the the building control visits uh only occurred
00:59:53 occurred once between the 27th of april and july 2015. certainly what that's suggesting but to be honest i can't
01:00:05 suggesting but to be honest i can't fully remember okay
01:00:08 was there ever any discussions in the ryden team about the lack of attendance by building control
01:00:15 control on site did anyone ever raise that as an issue no i never remember anything like that now we saw from paragraph 11 of your statement that you also said that
01:00:26 statement that you also said that building control inspectors signed and filed handover certificates do you remember that yes now um we're not entirely sure what that's
01:00:39 um we're not entirely sure what that's referring to in in his witness statement mr hoban does not mention that any certificates were generated or signed by him or that he signed off on the cladding works can you help us as to
01:00:51 works can you help us as to what these certificates were and are you clear that they were being signed by building control um yeah i mean they they have a standard handover procedure as we do
01:01:05 standard handover procedure as we do um if anything's brought up it will be put in that report and we'd have to act on that from memory we had we had a trail of
01:01:17 from memory we had we had a trail of those
01:01:19 those is it possible that you've become confused with certificates that were prepared or checklist that were prepared by the clerk of works rather than building control uh quite possibly
01:01:29 possibly quite possibly yeah because no such handover certificates have been disclosed to the inquiry we can't find any building control handover certificates right uh it's such a long time ago
01:01:43 right uh it's such a long time ago yeah you know it's difficult i understand i understand but you can't help us as to what kind of information those handover certificates contained
01:01:53 contained no
01:01:57 now just finishing off this topic mr chairman if i could just finish this topic and then that would be a good point for a break yes all right so just the inspection that building control did on the 15th of
01:02:08 that building control did on the 15th of may 2015 that we see clearly recorded here in
01:02:11 here in ryden's notes um now john hoban has made a note of this visit
01:02:18 visit uh can we look at that this is rbk four zeros 3041 at page four
01:02:36 so do you see it's at the bottom of that page just one uh item up can you see that i can yeah so it's the 15th of may 2015 and it's an it's called an interim visit and the note just say this
01:02:50 interim visit and the note just say this inspection to check framework for cladding do you see that there yes now can you remember did you accompany mr hoban on that site visit
01:03:02 accompany mr hoban on that site visit uh i don't recall to be honest so you don't have any independent recollection of it no no i don't and you can't assist us with any further
01:03:14 and you can't assist us with any further details of the site visit that mr hoban did at that time
01:03:21 yeah i don't i honestly i can't remember
01:03:26 do you remember at any time while you were on site actually taking john hoban up the mass climbers and
01:03:34 and showing him the the work from the outside
01:03:38 outside uh yes i do i do recall that i do i do recall um
01:03:42 recall um you know checking everything um you know he he would be checking as i was checking um but do you have a memory of of going
01:03:53 um but do you have a memory of of going with mr hoban up the outside of the building and actually looking at the insulation and the the cavity barriers i can't remember that's the honest truth
01:04:12 i can't remember that's the honest truth mr hoban said a number of things about this visit and i i just i'm going to put to you a number of things that he says were said to him because i want to ask you whether you might have said that to him
01:04:24 might have said that to him um at this or any time really um did you say to him that tests had been carried out to the metal framework supporting the cladding
01:04:35 supporting the cladding no no did you say to him that this cladding system had been fitted to many buildings throughout england and wales to buildings of a similar height and construction
01:04:46 construction um i've got no recollection of that either no
01:04:50 either no does that sound like something you might have said to him definitely not no i mean i'm not i'm not trained to to you know say things like that i you know i just follow the drawing i i
01:05:01 you know i just follow the drawing i i i follow the spec yeah and i'm not in that position could you have ever told him that the cladding would comply with the standard set out and approved document b
01:05:12 and what about whether you might have told him that the cladding panels were class
01:05:15 class naught or above no [Applause] mr chairman that would be a good point for a break would that be a good point right thank you we're going to stop now then for a bit of a break mr osgood
01:05:27 then for a bit of a break mr osgood again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with the refurbishment while you're out of the room okay we'll come back at 20 past that's fine yeah we're doing 20 past three though thank you very much
01:05:38 20 past three though thank you very much thank you very much
01:05:52 thank you 24 3 please
01:21:01 right would you like to ask mr ross good to come back please okay
01:21:24 right this rob's good ready to carry on yes thank you very much yes mrs green yes thank you just a few follow-up questions on the cladding and then we're going to come to the topic of windows after that um so back to thinking about
01:21:35 after that um so back to thinking about the cladding and what you were looking at
01:21:37 at with the cavity barriers before the external panels went on did you ever take any measurements on site to check that the cavity barriers were in the correct location according to the drawings yeah we did
01:21:48 according to the drawings yeah we did that with the barriers with the rails um and all the bracketry as well right yeah and what about photographs would you be taking photographs as the
01:21:59 would you be taking photographs as the cladding installation was going on the building as a record i don't recall to be honest i don't remember having done no and i did take
01:22:07 did take some photos and for my own personal record
01:22:11 record right yeah and just in terms of the the the panels on the outside of the building the acm panels and how much approximately how how much of that had been installed when you left
01:22:23 of that had been installed when you left site can you remember um not precisely um but as i mentioned before we had to stop works
01:22:33 works at about the third floor i believe it was
01:22:36 was yeah because they were still works ongoing though yeah did you ever read the installation instructions for the rainer bond panels the the panels on the exterior i don't remember
01:22:49 so you didn't ever take any steps to ensure that any installers were suitably trained by the manufacturer by arconic
01:22:59 okay windows now you tell us in your witness statement that you were involved in overseeing the installation of the interior window reveals to the show flat at grenfell you mentioned that at paragraph eight of
01:23:11 you mentioned that at paragraph eight of your statement but we can see from the documents that you also seem to be involved in overseeing the installation of the interior window reveals to the windows more generally at grenfell tower not just the show flat
01:23:24 grenfell tower not just the show flat can i is that right um
01:23:30 no i don't believe it's right uh okay can we just look at a few documents and see if they help refresh any memory on this um let's turn to ryd
01:23:41 turn to ryd three zeros four three seven three one and so this is an email from simon o'connor to you
01:23:53 o'connor to you jason north and jack sullivan on the 15th of june 2015. and he says afternoon all for clarity i thought it might be useful to allocate some responsibilities please see below
01:24:05 some responsibilities please see below and you see that that then we get a list and under under your name danny we've got subcontractors mechanical electrical excluding first
01:24:16 mechanical electrical excluding first floor floors do you see that yeah i do and then harley's cladding an internal glazing harleys and then it says
01:24:24 says internal window trimming and boxing sdp do you see that there i do yes so did you understand at this point that you were responsible for the
01:24:35 that you were responsible for the internal window trimming and boxing and supervising sdp's work in relation to that
01:24:41 to that uh yes
01:24:44 uh yes and then um if we can also go to another document har3017657
01:24:59 on this so if we start with the email at the bottom of that page on the same day simon lawrence is emailing
01:25:08 emailing you jason north and simon o'connor on the subject of grenfell completion program and we can see he says please find attached our new completion program for
01:25:20 attached our new completion program for grenfell
01:25:21 grenfell you will need to share this with your subcontractors and ensure that they are working in line with it do you see that there i do yes
01:25:31 and then if we look at the email at the top of the page
01:25:36 there we go this is from you to mark dixon of sd plastering on the 16th of june
01:25:43 june and you say gents cp please see attached revised completion program do you see that there i do yeah so would you accept that from at least from this point onwards until you leave and i appreciate you
01:25:55 until you leave and i appreciate you leave the project in july you are responsible for the sd plastering work on site it was my job to oversee it yes yeah
01:26:07 now in terms of the work you did overseeing the installation of the window reveals at the show flat um if we can look at a picture at this
01:26:18 um if we can look at a picture at this point
01:26:18 point in dr lane's report blas 608 page 24 and i want to look at figure 8.8.25
01:26:28 so that's the figure at the bottom of that page
01:26:32 that page so we can see here can't we that the new windows had been installed beyond the original building line so that they aligned with the external cladding that's right isn't it that's correct
01:26:41 correct yes and the new windows lay outside and forward of the plane of the original masonry fabric and structure that's right isn't it yes that's correct
01:26:53 now given that the new windows were installed beyond the original building line
01:26:58 line we can see that gaps were created between the newly installed windows and the old
01:27:03 the old timber reveals and also between the edge of the concrete window enclosure and the edge of the new window frames do you see that
01:27:12 that i do so you've got gaps there at the bottom
01:27:15 bottom with the old window frame and then you've got gaps to the side with the the column
01:27:23 now did you or to the best of your knowledge anyone else within ryden ever give any consideration to the importance of ensuring that any any of these gaps were closed in a way
01:27:35 any of these gaps were closed in a way that maintain the compartmentation of the building
01:27:42 um sorry can you repeat the question yeah did you or anyone else at ryden ever give any consideration to whether these gaps um should be
01:27:53 to whether these gaps um should be closed in a way that maintain the compartmentation of the building no not from memory did you think it was someone else's responsibility in ryden to be thinking about that
01:28:07 to be thinking about that um according to the drawing that was was what was being asked um i see so again you just looked at the drawings and you understood you had to be fulfilling
01:28:19 you understood you had to be fulfilling that but no you didn't ever question um whether or not compartmentation would be maintained in terms of what was happening to these gaps no
01:28:30 gaps no did you or anyone else to your knowledge when you were on the project ever discussed the risk of an internal fire migrating around the window edges and into a cavity lying in the external wall
01:28:43 into a cavity lying in the external wall no
01:28:46 now we know that ryden instructed sd plastering sdp to carry out the installation of the windows surrounds and if we could look at paragraph eight
01:28:58 and if we could look at paragraph eight of your statement on page two
01:29:05 if we pick it up four lines down on the right hand side you say there was a pre-start meeting with the director of sdp solutions mark dixon
01:29:16 sdp solutions mark dixon ryden project project manager simon connor
01:29:20 connor ryden surveyor james clifton and myself which set
01:29:23 which set out what was to be done the work involved was making good the gap between the new window and the window taken out you see that there yes and was that
01:29:34 you see that there yes and was that simon o'connor that you're referring to there the project yes
01:29:40 now if we can go to mr dixon's witness statement paragraph 17 this is a sdp
01:29:50 i think five zeros 196 at page four
01:30:01 if we look at paragraph 17 if we could blow that up in the middle of the page this is mr dixon and he says the example windows surround consisted of a number of
01:30:11 of pieces of plastic soffit and fascia board
01:30:14 board that had been attached to the window reveal sill and header one of the management team explained that they were not happy with the standard of finish that had been achieved because amongst other things the plastic soffit and
01:30:26 other things the plastic soffit and fascia boards were prone to bowing do you see that there yeah i do yeah and do you recall there being discussions about that with sdp uh i don't no no i don't you can't recall discussions
01:30:37 no i don't you can't recall discussions about boeing of the internal window reveals i i honestly don't don't remember that
01:30:47 now if you look at paragraph 19
01:30:55 mr dixon says one of the management team instructed sdpl to produce an alternative configuration for finishing off the windows surrounds that was one more aesthetically pleasing than the example window surround
01:31:07 than the example window surround two was easier to install than the example windows surround and three would remedy the bowing in the example windows surround do you see that and again does that trigger any recollection
01:31:18 trigger any recollection about instructing sdp to produce an alternative configuration for for the finishings around the window yeah so the only thing i remember is that um
01:31:31 is that um the the old frame of the window was to be left in place yeah and that we would trim up and over and around it if you know what i mean yeah which was very difficult to do
01:31:43 difficult to do because he had to build up in and then down again and it just and instead the idea was to take the
01:31:51 take the the old frame out and just close in after that and it made a very
01:31:57 a very much more solid rigid uh finish to sorry to the uh to the opening when you say instead the intention was to take the old frame out
01:32:09 to take the old frame out that isn't in fact what occurred though is it they didn't take the old frames out
01:32:13 out they left them in place didn't they yes yeah
01:32:17 yeah so when you say instead the intention was to take the old frames out what do you mean and that that was one of the the ideas was to to remove it completely
01:32:29 to to remove it completely i see now moving on to paragraph 20 then mr dixon says this he says sdpl did not receive any instructions from ryden nor any other entity concerning
01:32:40 nor any other entity concerning compartmentation and or fire resistance in respect of the works do you see that there yes now we know you were at that pre-start meeting um can you recall whether ryden did in
01:32:54 um can you recall whether ryden did in fact give
01:32:55 fact give sdp any instructions regarding compartmentation no i'm not aware so no you can't recall or no those instructions weren't given i can't recall to be honest what about
01:33:08 i can't recall to be honest what about fire safety more generally or fire resistance do you recall anybody at ryden asking sdp to ensure that what they were doing to the window surrounds
01:33:20 window surrounds had the appropriate fire resistance no not that i'm aware of and you don't recall that being mentioned i don't recall no
01:33:30 recall no and that wasn't something you ever thought about when you were involved in this work you didn't ever think to yourself we do need to check whether these window surrounds are of the appropriate fire rating it was it was put forward that
01:33:42 rating it was it was put forward that was
01:33:43 was compartmentalized um and that you know any fire spread would be stopped there who put that forward i i don't remember to be honest i don't remember but i do
01:33:54 to be honest i don't remember but i do remember
01:33:55 remember an office conversation um for that degree but i can't remember exactly
01:34:02 exactly do you know whether when instructing sdp to produce this alternative configuration for the windows anyone at ryden sought any advice from exover or any other member of the design
01:34:13 exover or any other member of the design team about compartmentation or fire safety more generally i don't remember to be honest
01:34:24 now just going back to paragraph 10 of your statement uh on page two
01:34:34 you say um
01:34:40 you say in the first line i would say that consideration was given to fire safety during the refurbishment and then if we go down to the third line you say this fire retardant materials
01:34:51 you say this fire retardant materials were also used for the window trims and boxing in do you see that there yes i do so can you recall what materials were used for the window trims and boxing in
01:35:05 so from from my memory it was a fire retardant board that we used um again from my memory and are you talking about the board
01:35:16 about the board underneath the upvc or are you talking about the upvc itself being a fire retardant board sorry my memory's quite bad and
01:35:30 uh to be honest with you i i don't remember the specifics you've asserted here in your witness statement that fire retardant materials were also used
01:35:41 fire retardant materials were also used for the window trims and boxing in yes and what i'm asking is on what basis are you asserting there that the materials were fire retardant and
01:35:54 fire retardant and because i had only done pretty much the pilot
01:35:57 pilot um my memory of it is a bit vague um i'm not trying to dodge the question or anything but from my memory um it was a fire retardant uh
01:36:11 it was a fire retardant uh mdf board that was used um i could be very much mistaken but from memory it's a fire retardant mdf board yeah it was
01:36:22 board yeah it was i you have to appreciate i only did sort of the pilot and maybe a little bit more so
01:36:28 more so um
01:36:32 yeah i see you haven't said in this part of your statement i'm i'm sorry but i can't remember
01:36:40 remember uh whether the materials were fire retardant or not you've positively said that
01:36:45 that they were fire retardant materials and i'm asking you what you were basing that on when you've said that in your written witness statement i don't remember i really don't i mean so sitting here today now is your
01:36:57 so sitting here today now is your evidence that you have no recollection whether whether the material is fire retardant or not um no no i mean i don't um
01:37:09 i don't um it's very hard to remember i uh you know six years ago do you have ever any any recollection of ever inspecting any data sheets or certificates for the materials used around
01:37:20 used around the windows no
01:37:24 do you have any recollection of you ever personally checking that the materials were fire retardant no do you have any recollection of anyone else at ryden saying
01:37:35 anyone else at ryden saying i've checked and the materials are fire retardant
01:37:39 retardant no no what about mr dixon do you remember
01:37:44 remember sdp ever saying um no i don't no
01:37:52 now mr dixon has described the windows surrounds in his statement as purely decorative was that how you understood the surrounds to be purely decorative yeah yeah now
01:38:06 yeah yeah now at that pre-start meeting do you remember attending the pre-start meeting with sdp
01:38:10 with sdp i do yes do you recall there being any discussions at that time about the material that they were proposing to use to make good the gaps yeah i mean that was the the whole point to the pre-start meeting was to
01:38:21 to the pre-start meeting was to establish
01:38:22 establish what we were going to do what we were going to use and how we're going to do the works and was it discussed at that meeting that the gaps were to be filled with insulation
01:38:33 insulation at the head sill and jam positions and then
01:38:36 then with upvc put on top of that um quite possibly i can't remember the specifics of the meeting
01:38:48 would you agree that the ryden briefing should have ensured that materials were carefully selected to fill any gaps in the windows surrounds so as not to breach the compartmentation
01:38:59 so as not to breach the compartmentation of each flat in the building um i would expect that to have been done and you know and that they were aware of what exactly had to go where and what they were going
01:39:10 had to go where and what they were going to use
01:39:11 to use and what you just expected that of sdp or
01:39:15 or did you expect that someone within riding would have had that conversation with them
01:39:19 with them yeah i would have expected that someone within ryden would have had that conversation but that wasn't you no did you ever refer back to the nbs specification the main specification
01:39:32 specification the main specification that ryden were provided on the grenfell project to check what installations should be used to pack the window reveals i didn't check it because as i said at
01:39:44 i didn't check it because as i said at the time i didn't see the need to i was under the impression that everything was a 100 fireproof or it couldn't go on i see can we just have a look at this nbs
01:39:55 can we just have a look at this nbs specification it's at sca50169
01:40:06 so this is it's dated the 30th of january 2014 and it's the the last version of the nbs specification and it's a very very long document
01:40:17 document um and if i just give you an example of it
01:40:20 it with reference to this these works around the window if we look at page 243 within it
01:40:29 and at item this is within item p10 sundry insulation proofing work do you see at the top left hand side yes and
01:40:40 yes and we've we see
01:40:45 that there's reference to a that's right at the bottom of the page item 235
01:40:53 item 235 there's reference there to compressible insulation in gaps do you see that there i do yes now just in terms of the layout of this nbs spec and how it look this is very typical of the pattern of the
01:41:04 very typical of the pattern of the document in terms of getting numbered items and then little descriptions does this prompt a recollection for you as to whether you ever looked at this specification during the grenfell um i project
01:41:17 during the grenfell um i project remember to be honest i i would have done but uh remembering that no well you say you would have done here we've got compressible insulation in gaps and the manufacturer there is rockwool limited
01:41:29 rockwool limited do you see that yes
01:41:34 and the thicknesses to suit the application and i think the idea is it was
01:41:39 was was going to be cut or too packed tightly
01:41:44 tightly in the in the spaces that it needed to be
01:41:47 be but did you ever check the nbs specification to see what it said about the materials around the window sorry i don't remember to be honest
01:42:03 i think you said earlier to today that you were aware of rockwool as an insulation product at the time absolutely yeah what did you know about
01:42:12 about it um
01:42:16 it um that it was an insulation uh but it was fireproof
01:42:19 fireproof um i i was under the impression that all insulation was fireproof as as a standard as a you know so you didn't know that there might be a difference between a mineral wool
01:42:31 difference between a mineral wool insulation and say a phenolic insulation or a
01:42:37 or a pir insulation product in terms of its fire performance no no absolutely not did it ever occur to you when you were helping instruct sdp at the beginning
01:42:48 helping instruct sdp at the beginning and when looking at the show flat that compressible insulation might be easier given the
01:42:54 given the the odd shape of the gaps that you had to fill did that ever occur to you i don't recall
01:43:05 if you didn't check the nvs specification to see what materials were selected around the windows who would have been checking
01:43:17 my understanding was you know at design stage at contract stage when uh you know
01:43:24 you know it's all been being put together um all that would be agreed and okay because what we know is that this product wasn't there on the harley drawing because this wasn't part of
01:43:36 drawing because this wasn't part of harley's package was it no it said insulation by others on the harley drawing so this fell outside their work and that's why sdp picked it up that's right isn't it i believe so
01:43:49 right isn't it i believe so so in those circumstances it wasn't for harley and it wasn't shown in harley's drawings wasn't it for someone within ryden to be checking
01:44:00 checking when instructing sdp to do that work what the nbs specifications said about insulation in gaps um yeah i mean i believe that
01:44:12 in gaps um yeah i mean i believe that you know sdp would have been approached and someone at ryden would say well we need you to do this
01:44:23 you to do this basically giving them an instruction um and
01:44:26 and showing them what exactly was wanted you're there at that first meeting with sdp and you're involved aren't you in helping with the show flat and getting the first configuration of
01:44:39 and getting the first configuration of this window right so why didn't you go back to the specification check it and then say to sdp by the way we need compressible rock wall ins in insulation in this area um
01:44:53 in insulation in this area um to be honest with you at the time um we had a ryden surveyor was there i believe
01:45:01 believe um along with sdp and they were prime primarily talking about what the process was and what was expected and to be honest with you i remember thinking at the time
01:45:13 remember thinking at the time um more of uh how we were going to do it um seeing as how we had you know tenants in situ
01:45:22 in situ and we were doing potentially very disruptive works and so my mind was focused on how we were going to do it how we were going to keep the people the tenants safe in
01:45:33 keep the people the tenants safe in their flats while we whilst we do the work okay are you aware whether
01:45:37 whether you or anyone else at ryden gave a copy of the that part of the nbs specification to sdp to tell them what materials were supposed to be going around the windows
01:45:49 windows again as i say i would expect when the order goes to sdp that everything would be in there for them and it would be explained exactly what's what's expected would you agree that if
01:46:03 what's expected would you agree that if the mbs specification had been referred to then it would have been clear that the selection of celetex in may 2015 by sd plastering was at odds with the specification
01:46:15 and quite possibly i mean i as far as i was aware it was fire proof
01:46:24 i i honestly thought that all insulation on a building that size would be fireproof did you know that the celatex product used around the windows is a fire class
01:46:36 windows is a fire class f product would that have meant anything to you
01:46:40 to you and not a material of limited combustibility no and that the kingspan thermopitch tp10 was a class e product um
01:46:52 where you were aware of the kingspan thermopitch tp10 product being used around the windows
01:47:10 now after the meeting in uh with sdp that initial meeting sdp send a quotation for completing the works
01:47:21 works um and that quotation was later updated at the end of may on the 29th of may 2015. if we can go to that quotation it's sdp
01:47:34 50192
01:47:37 if we can blow that up so this is the sdp revised quotation do you have any recollection of ever seeing that uh i do remember it but i don't know exactly what's in there
01:47:50 exactly what's in there so on the second line down under description of item it says place celetex insulation to reveals and base
01:47:56 base based of window do you see that there yes
01:47:59 yes do you recall noticing that at the time no so you didn't ever query why the celetex insulation had been included in that quote no
01:48:13 now it was on the 13th of may 2015 that ryden
01:48:16 ryden confirmed its instruction to sdp to proceed with the works
01:48:23 looking at paragraph nine of your statement if we could look at that on page two
01:48:30 you say there the methodology of the installation and the specification of the materials used were agreed before my involvement in the project and would have involved the surveyors subcontractors the client and ryden my
01:48:42 subcontractors the client and ryden my work
01:48:42 work was to ensure the work was completed do you see that there yes now in fact we know that the um instruction to sdp to proceed
01:48:55 um instruction to sdp to proceed with their quotation was on the 13th of may 2015. so that was after you started work on the project wasn't it yes but is it right you didn't realize that when you wrote your statement
01:49:06 that when you wrote your statement no did you ever read sdp's risk assessment and method statement for the works
01:49:14 works um no let's just look at that ryd3089065
01:49:29 um no let's just look at that ryd3089065 so we see there it's got the scope of works and it says install and make good flow plast soffit and fascia board around window reveals
01:49:37 reveals borders to be cut and stuck using adhesive and all gaps made good with mastic
01:49:42 mastic and then if we can look at page three we also get their substances and materials it tells us what they're using
01:49:54 materials it tells us what they're using do you recall seeing this method statement at the time no no i don't do you recall ever checking that what sdp was saying in a risk assessment or method statement
01:50:06 assessment or method statement was consistent with the materials that were supposed to be being used on this project
01:50:10 project i don't remember this document at all
01:50:15 now on the 20th of may you instructed stp to complete the works in the show flat if we go to stp 50190
01:50:31 so this is you to mark dixon and it's 145 grenfell tower and you say here is the list works that need to be completed by the end of play wednesday the 27th of may 15
01:50:44 wednesday the 27th of may 15 and we can see a list of what needs to be done there now that was the show flat wasn't it flat 145. that's correct yes and this list doesn't mention anything about ensuring compartmentation or
01:50:56 about ensuring compartmentation or anything to do with fire safety or fire resistance of the materials does it now
01:51:09 did you think that somebody else within ryden was checking whether the materials the sdp were proposing to use around the windows was consistent with the requirements of the building regulations
01:51:21 the building regulations absolutely yeah who would that have been within ryden then on your understanding i i would believe that
01:51:30 that you know when sdp are approached to do the works um list of materials and anything going into that would be specified to them by riding a
01:51:42 would be specified to them by riding a surveyor
01:51:43 surveyor or someone that's actually issuing the order
01:51:46 order right
01:51:51 now you say at paragraph 15 of your statement
01:51:54 statement you did not have any concerns about the refurbishment project and didn't see anything unusual on the project do you remember concerns being raised about the work on the show flat
01:52:06 um from memory i believe it was it was straightforward we were to do this close it in box it off and that's that's basically
01:52:19 box it off and that's that's basically what we did i didn't see any concern
01:52:25 would you agree that getting the show frat right was really important because everything was going to flow from that once you got the
01:52:33 the show flat determined absolutely that was supposed to then just be replicated across the all of the other windows and uh you know it wasn't just the windows on the inside there was
01:52:43 there was lots of other work so i was acutely aware that you know once it was ready it would then have to go to
01:52:52 go to building control and they would say yes or no
01:52:55 or no and then we could roll it out on a much more
01:53:00 more permanent thing now can we look at an email about the show flat this is um ryd3042487
01:53:14 so this is an email from simon o'connor to you
01:53:17 to you and sorry simon lawrence to you and simon o'connor yes and um it's about the show flat
01:53:29 and um it's about the show flat and he says in the first paragraph i've sent an email tonight to mark explaining my thoughts and asking him to call me when he's on site tomorrow now we'll see in a moment there's a separate email to mark dixon about this
01:53:40 separate email to mark dixon about this and then he goes on and says this i've also made steve blake aware so he isn't shocked when he visits tomorrow overall i am extremely upset that we have got to today and in my opinion are nowhere near having the flat
01:53:52 opinion are nowhere near having the flat in a show condition it shouldn't take me to visit and notice the issues straight away apart from being unfinished in areas the bouncy window board is a disaster i still can't understand how it hasn't
01:54:04 i still can't understand how it hasn't been noticed before and then he says i'm expecting to be called to account from steve in fact quite frankly i haven't got any good excuses the only saving grace is that the
01:54:15 the only saving grace is that the client's director isn't planning on visiting tomorrow as first thought whatever happens that flat has got to be top-notch ready for inspection by the client next week i expect nothing short of a quality job
01:54:27 short of a quality job so we can see that now do you recall receiving this email i do
01:54:35 do why why was mr lawrence saying that mr blake would be shocked when he saw what was in that show flat um i think i think that's a little unfair
01:54:46 unfair um because the at that point i remember going with to the the flat with with i believe
01:54:57 believe simon o'connor and we looked at it and there were so few things to to uh to actually bring it up to hand over a ball stage uh i think that that email was a little unfair
01:55:08 was a little unfair are you saying it was an overreaction on mr lawrence's part uh yeah i believe so so you didn't accept that the issues with the show flat were as serious as he was
01:55:19 the show flat were as serious as he was saying
01:55:19 saying i don't believe that it was as serious as he was saying the the flat head issues as you know any handover that you do is going to have a handful of issues
01:55:30 is going to have a handful of issues that need to be corrected it was definitely true but not to that level
01:55:36 level i don't believe what did he mean by the bouncy window board is a disaster i believe there was some movement in one of the boards um but again we had it corrected straight
01:55:48 but again we had it corrected straight away so
01:55:49 away so so was that about bounciness in the upvc because there was insufficient packing underneath it i can't remember the specifics
01:56:00 can't remember the specifics but it could have had something similar to do with it did that bouncy window put you on notice that there were unacceptable cavities around the windows and that the technique for compression
01:56:11 and that the technique for compression had not been successful in terms of packing that window out no no
01:56:22 now were you aware that mr lawrence had specifically requested a plasterboard packer to support and fill the voids
01:56:34 from memory i remember something yes
01:56:40 and do you know why that plasterboard packer wasn't ever included
01:56:47 um i don't know you can't help us on why there was no plasterboard there and instead we got foam insulation i i can't remember to be
01:57:01 foam insulation i i can't remember to be honest with you now there's an email to mr dixon as i as he prefaces there in his uh first paragraph let's go to that ryd three zeros four two four eight six
01:57:16 and i want to go to the bottom email of the chain on page one
01:57:21 so this is the lawrence to mr dixon i appreciate you wouldn't have seen this at the time um but he says
01:57:33 and if we look at the i'd like to look at the last paragraph on that bottom of that page i then took a look at the window trimming which unfortunately wasn't the finished item that i was expecting
01:57:42 expecting there are still some areas which need tidying up my joint strips need installing a couple of side trims outstanding and there's a large gap behind several reveal returns which are too large to mastic
01:57:53 mastic also andy has used a different uvc upvc product than the original it had more of a bull nose do you see that there
01:58:02 there i do yeah and then he says my biggest concern is how they fitted the window boards compared to original attempt it seems that because they have used a thicker board they've decided not
01:58:13 used a thicker board they've decided not to install a plasterboard packer below in my opinion that was a big mistake this means that now all of the windows have a void beneath them which is only partly stuck with grip fill as soon as you press them they
01:58:24 as soon as you press them they noticeably deflect some really badly in my opinion this isn't acceptable and they all need reinstalling have a look and see what you think do you see that there no i do so can you
01:58:35 do you see that there no i do so can you see mr lawrence is saying that he thinks not installing a plasterboard packer below was a big mistake
01:58:43 uh i see that i don't remember this email well you didn't receive this email what i'm what i want to ask you is whether you were aware
01:58:54 whether you were aware that mr lawrence was concerned that no plasterboard packer had been installed below the upvc no you weren't aware at all no
01:59:05 you weren't aware at all no we would you have been aware at the time that plasterboard might have provided some more fire resistance than the combustible insulation that in fact was used
01:59:17 used um i i don't remember i mean i don't remember seeing plasterboard in anywhere
01:59:26 anywhere to be used even as a packer i see now in the same email chain at the top of page one mr lawrence also sends an email to mr
01:59:38 mr lawrence also sends an email to mr blake
01:59:40 and um he says in the second paragraph i've been to site today and taken a look at the flat to be fair and really disappointed and extremely unhappy with our progress and quality whilst mark's lads haven't helped the
01:59:52 whilst mark's lads haven't helped the matter our management hasn't done anything about it i don't understand why it takes me to notice these items i can only assume that those responsible our end haven't visited the flat during the installation process do you see that there
02:00:04 process do you see that there yes now you were the site manager overseeing this work weren't you yes do you i mean would it have been you that he's referring to there our management hasn't done anything about
02:00:15 done anything about it um it could be or it could be management in general but uh did you fail to visit the flat during the installation process not at all i was there all the time well
02:00:27 not at all i was there all the time well not all of the time but uh i'll make sure i'd be in and out just to see how the progress is going and at the time who did you think should take responsibility for rectifying what
02:00:38 take responsibility for rectifying what mr lawrence had referred to as a disaster
02:00:41 disaster um ultimately me i would have thought um but we did we did it immediately yes so what happened as a result of mr lawrence's complaints can you recall
02:00:54 lawrence's complaints can you recall um yeah i mean we took another look at it um
02:00:59 it um i i can't remember the exact specifics but uh i do remember it was dealt with quite rapidly do you know whether sdp were given better or different instructions
02:01:10 better or different instructions following this um no i'm aware of no they weren't given different instructions can we look at a snag list that you sent to mr dixon um
02:01:23 a snag list that you sent to mr dixon um shortly after this this is har3017649
02:01:31 this is a snag list you sent on the 28th of may 2015
02:01:38 so this is flat145 so that's the show flat yes
02:01:41 flat yes yes so is this the list you sent after mr lawrence's complaint
02:01:48 i don't recognize it but
02:01:53 can we look on within this at page two at point zero one it says lounge flexing window board to be removed and replaced do you see that there
02:02:04 there i do yeah can you explain why you haven't given mr dixon more direction on filling the void underneath the flexing window board
02:02:14 um no i can't i mean was that because you you thought no further direction was needed to remedy the the problem no i didn't believe so can you explain
02:02:26 no i didn't believe so can you explain why you don't refer to this incident to do with the show flat in your witness statement
02:02:32 statement and i didn't feel the need and probably just didn't remember to be honest
02:02:44 do you know what steps if any were taken to ensure that sdp's work was properly checked
02:02:48 checked after this
02:02:53 um i don't i wasn't there at handover so i i would presume it would be the standard
02:03:02 standard um snagging procedure and handover to clerk and
02:03:05 clerk and building control
02:03:08 were you aware that after this sdp had to regularly chase for sign-offs in relation to which were its work
02:03:16 its work i was not aware of that
02:03:20 let's just have a look at ryd three zeros four four one two oh
02:03:27 i want to look one email down on the first page
02:03:38 so afternoon this is simon o'connor to you
02:03:41 you 18th of june 15 afternoon danny following a conversation with andy cole sdp this afternoon he is concerned that we're plowing ahead with internal window trimming and currently none have been signed off by clerk of works
02:03:53 clerk of works is this correct please can you update me urgently
02:03:56 urgently do you see that i do and he notes in that last line please can you update me as we should be getting these signed off on a weekly basis do you see that there yes
02:04:09 now did you carry out inspections after this
02:04:12 this on the internal window surrounds um not that i remember no okay
02:04:21 so i now want to look at just some emails um
02:04:25 emails um surrounding your departure from the project when you left let's determine i've got four pages left of fairly short notes so if i'm if i can just finish this
02:04:36 so if i'm if i can just finish this these questions and then we'll just have to break for the cp yes so if we can go to ryd3089265
02:04:53 so if we can go to ryd3089265 and then we if we can look at an email you sent to mr lawrence
02:05:00 uh i think it's at the bottom of this page yes so it's at 1513 the bottom of that page grenfell tower window trim do you see that you say simon and then we go over the page
02:05:12 we go over the page not entirely sure what you mean by get your hand dirty but if you're implying i bring in
02:05:16 bring in some work clothes and tools to complete the job myself you'll need to think again
02:05:21 again you asked me if i would help on this project and i'm all about helping out but not if it means being treated with this kind of disrespect i've been in site management for over 10 years and i have no intention of picking
02:05:32 years and i have no intention of picking up tools again and then you say something about the door not arriving now we can see looking at the email below that this was related to a disagreement with mr lawrence about the
02:05:44 disagreement with mr lawrence about the painting of a cupboard in the show flat is that right that's correct yes now i don't want to ask any more details about that specific incident but um i want to ask you about your relationship with mr lawrence and mr
02:05:56 relationship with mr lawrence and mr o'connor how would you describe your relationship with them on the project my relationship with simon o'connor was very good very strong very healthy um to be honest with you i
02:06:09 very healthy um to be honest with you i found
02:06:11 found the relationship between me and simon lawrence a little strained
02:06:17 you know i'm i'm i'm the kind of person that does
02:06:20 that does things in due course whereas mr lawrence wants it done right now
02:06:30 now and no no ifs but so maybe so i want it done
02:06:33 done and in reality that's that's not always achievable okay
02:06:41 did you consider mr lawrence to be an effective manager on the project um yes i did uh you know the fact you know a lot of contracts managers um
02:06:54 you know a lot of contracts managers um they want it done now so it wasn't unusual um to be that way um but uh you know he he he had a bit of a temper he uh you know
02:07:05 know what about mr o'connor did you regard him as having been an effective manager on the project yeah simon o'connor and in fact all the managers
02:07:15 managers they were very proactive as i said when i arrived on site place was perfectly perfectly run from what i could see and you can tell
02:07:26 what i could see and you can tell straight away when there's good management in place on a building site and i could tell straight away that you know simon o'connor um jason north they're all out to to do the best
02:07:39 they're all out to to do the best possible job yeah can we look at an email mr lawrence sent to mr blake in july 2015. this is ryd3047116
02:07:58 so this is headed personal improvement plan
02:08:03 can i ask you first have you ever seen this email before and i don't believe so no
02:08:11 so um there is a section beginning at paragraph two so it says this danny my concerns about him relate to his lack of commitment to be responsible for his works and manage a situation
02:08:24 for his works and manage a situation proactively and adequately he seems not to be able to make a decision i think he does this so he isn't responsible should anything be wrong
02:08:32 be wrong and then he continues he's also is out on
02:08:35 on site a majority of the time it doesn't seem to have an understanding about what his subcontractors are doing for example i walked the whole block yesterday and found areas that i wasn't happy about all riser cupboard doors were unlocked
02:08:47 all riser cupboard doors were unlocked even though we weren't working on a majority of flaws tools and items in the cupboards which i don't think should have been there the clerk of works has also sent an email today expressing his concerns about us working
02:08:58 about us working safely in occupied communal areas with materials and tools not behind barriers i get the impression that danny is willing to react but can't be bothered to check
02:09:07 to check it is correct in the first place and then in the next paragraph he says another example of this is when he was responsible for getting the show flat ready for the last consultation session i visited the flat with zach in the
02:09:19 i visited the flat with zach in the afternoon as the work was being finished to find different pieces of trim being used on different adjacent windows some bullnose some square edge also some had been packed correctly while others
02:09:30 had been packed correctly while others deflected because they hadn't been installed the same admittedly sdp should have picked this up also
02:09:35 up also but it wasn't noticed until it was finished then it was me that picked it up
02:09:39 up that says danny wasn't controlling the works
02:09:43 works and then he goes on if we can scroll down
02:09:48 he talks about the last and best example is regarding the hiu cupboard install and then he talks about that i'm not going to read that bit out um at the bottom of that paragraph
02:10:03 um at the bottom of that paragraph it says third line up when i talked to him about his performance he blamed lack of labor
02:10:08 of labor and said he would never commit 100 to getting a job done to a deadline he'd only try that sounds another excuse to me
02:10:15 to me then he booked a week's leave for the following week and finally he says this in my opinion he's just a chancellor who wants to do as little as possible and not be responsible for anything currently he is demotivating the others
02:10:27 currently he is demotivating the others on site and none of the subbies want to deal with him he needs to be moved asap do you see that yes i do and is this the first time you've you've seen that
02:10:38 first time you've you've seen that uh it's the first time i've seen this okay
02:10:41 okay um were you aware at the time that mr lawrence had these concerns about you um i i was aware that we weren't getting on
02:10:50 on um i was aware that um you know he
02:10:59 is very very vocal person and so if he's not happy about something you're the first to know about it yeah and i think it's very unfair because um you know there's
02:11:12 very unfair because um you know there's a lot going on at the time um and i was getting on fine with contractors with everybody just in my view
02:11:22 view simon lawrence yeah i mean we wanted to give you the chance to comment on this yeah and what he said yeah
02:11:29 yeah how would you yourself describe the commitment that you showed to the works same commitment i have throughout my working history and that is to apply yourself 100 um
02:11:42 apply yourself 100 um you know and ticking the boxes as you go to make sure that it's it's done in a timely manner and that it's done properly yeah he says that you were reluctant to make decisions because you didn't want
02:11:54 make decisions because you didn't want to be held responsible for them is that a criticism you would accept um to a point i'm not going to make decisions
02:12:02 decisions um over and above the decisions that i can make
02:12:07 can make you know uh that i'm i'm trained to make i'm trained as a site manager to manage subcontractors yeah and and i i i believe i do it reasonably well in fact better than reasonably well
02:12:20 fact better than reasonably well but then you'll have to ask the contractors he says in there that you didn't seem to have an understanding about what the your subcontractors were doing again would you say that was a fair criticism
02:12:32 would you say that was a fair criticism did you know what your subcontractors were doing on site yes i did yes [Applause]
02:12:44 he talks about demotivation towards the end
02:12:48 end is demotivating the others on site and none of the suburbs want to deal with him
02:12:53 him is that something that you would accept no not at all
02:12:59 now this email was entitled personal improvement improvement plan were any steps put in place during your time on the the project to either monitor your work or improve your performance so far as
02:13:11 or improve your performance so far as you were aware yes um due to this um i i believe that ryden felt that they had to take steps
02:13:23 ryden felt that they had to take steps to make sure i knew how to do my job and i i fully understand that and they're very supportive they put me on
02:13:33 on courses and they sort of um sort of watched me over the next six months
02:13:41 months and see how i was doing what i was doing um and it was it was a process it was a learning process yeah it's a good process yeah that wouldn't have been watching you on the
02:13:52 wouldn't have been watching you on the grenfell project would it because you'd left in july 2015. so is that another ryden project i understand why did you leave the project on the 24th of july 2015
02:14:03 project on the 24th of july 2015 the grenfell project um there was another project come up um and i was asked to go and oversee that
02:14:11 that was it related to your relationship with mr lawrence that you left the project partly could it partly but i don't think entirely
02:14:19 entirely did you brief anybody at ryden as part of a handover responsibilities when you left the project um no there was
02:14:32 um no there was there was um i believe simon connor so yeah i mean i see so you didn't do any kind of formal handover
02:14:44 formal handover to anybody coming in not that i can remember did you have any concerns about the project that you didn't pass on at that time
02:14:52 no just some very very short questions now
02:14:56 now mr stokes carl stokes do you remember ever
02:15:02 ever seeing mr stokes on site coming into contact with him and i don't recall to be honest he was the fire risk assessor for the tmo um you can't recall ever speaking to him
02:15:15 um you can't recall ever speaking to him about the cladding no no or about the fire retardancy fire resistance of the cladding no i wouldn't i wouldn't either
02:15:27 did you ever tell mr lawrence anything about the fire performance of the cladding for example that it was inert and wouldn't burn no absolutely not
02:15:36 not or the tmo would you ever have said that to the tmo no definitely not so chairman i've come to the end of my questions actually a little bit later than i said well there it is
02:15:47 well there it is thank you very much
02:15:51 think she's reached the end of the questioning but we always have a little break at this point to absolutely take stock and make sure so um
02:15:58 um ten minutes should be enough shouldn't it yes um we'll rise we'll break now and come back at 25 past and see if there's any more questions for you then is that right thank you yes all right would you like to give the option
02:16:20 all right twenty-five
02:25:46 right would you like to ask mr ross good to come back please
02:26:06 right we'll see if some more questions for you mr osgood well ms grange how do we stand well the bad news is there are but the good news is there aren't very many
02:26:13 many okay we'll be quick right um photographs mr osgood i asked you about photographs you took on site and you said you thought you did take some yeah i do have a recollection of it i
02:26:25 yeah i do have a recollection of it i can't remember can you remember what became of those photographs no no and what use did you put those to when you were taking them did
02:26:36 when you were taking them did was that just for your own i think it was for my own reference yeah you know yeah um we just want to show you a picture of mr white john white the clerk of works to see if that helps
02:26:47 the clerk of works to see if that helps because you talked before about clerk of works inspections building control inspections and i think you admitted that you may have got a little bit confused as to who was doing what and we just want to show you this picture this is tmo one
02:27:00 show you this picture this is tmo one three zeros five seven eight seven
02:27:09 and if we go to page four within that document
02:27:13 document we should find a picture there if we could blow it up of mr white this the clerk of works now does that help you at all as to who it was that was inspecting
02:27:25 it was that was inspecting frequently and whether you're right that building control we're inspecting more frequently than the ryden records show us
02:27:36 ryden records show us it doesn't help to be honest it doesn't help okay sounds ridiculous but well we thought we'd try yeah sorry great it's determined those are all my questions thank you very much well there were a few weren't they yeah thank you very much right well um
02:27:48 yeah thank you very much right well um mrs good as you've heard though those are the only questions that were outstanding so then your remains me now thank you very much for coming to give your evidence it's very helpful to have heard from you no problem and we're grateful to you for
02:28:00 problem and we're grateful to you for that reason you're now free to go thank you very
02:28:10 much
02:28:16 thank you miss grange that is i take it for the day that is and for a little while and we start again in september exactly yes we're going to we're not going to be sitting at all in
02:28:28 sitting at all in august and we shall resume hearings on the 7th of september at 10 o'clock here yes thank you thank you very much thanks
02:28:50 you