Evidence from Rydon site managers Gary Martin and Daniel Osgood on their roles in the Grenfell Tower refurbishment, including window installation, fire safety inspections, and materials used.
00:00:14 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing
00:00:17 hearing uh today we're going to hear from further witnesses uh who were employed by ryden uh on the refurbishment yes was grange yes thank you if we could call mr gary martin please
00:00:29 call mr gary martin please good could you call mr gary martin
00:00:42 please
00:00:46 indeed um i do solemnly and sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing
00:00:58 the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr martin do sit down make yourself comfortable thank you
00:01:09 right there's water there if you feel the need for it thank you yes yes strange yes thank you good morning mr martin thank you very much for attending today it's very much appreciated um if you have any difficulty
00:01:21 um if you have any difficulty understanding anything i'm going to ask you in the course of my questions please ask me to repeat the question or put it in a different way also if you feel that you need a break at any point just please let us know
00:01:33 at any point just please let us know and can you also try and keep your voice up because there's a transcriber to your right who's taking a note of your answers
00:01:41 answers so if you can keep your voice up for her that would be great now you've made one statement dated the 25th of september 2018. can i just take you to that it's at ryd
00:01:53 can i just take you to that it's at ryd 3
00:01:57 it's in a folder in front of you and it will also appear on the screen
00:02:05 have you had a chance to read this statement recently yes i have great can you look at the bottom of page two
00:02:12 two is that your signature yes it is right and are the contents of the statement true to the best of your knowledge um there's one misleading statement in there
00:02:23 there that i'd just like to clarify before we start and that is about the fire barrier around the windows yeah i confirmed that there definitely was one but i was referring to a paper foil barrier
00:02:35 i was referring to a paper foil barrier not anything more substantial right yes so it is misleading on there but yeah i don't need to confirm that thank you mr martin that's really helpful i am going to come to that fairly quickly in my questions and we're
00:02:46 fairly quickly in my questions and we're going to look at some photographs so you can show us hopefully what you were referring to in that part of your statement so but thanks for that um can i just start with some questions
00:02:57 can i just start with some questions about your background and experience can we just look at paragraph two of your statement on page one and you tell us there that you're currently a site manager for a
00:03:08 currently a site manager for a refurbishment company you joined ryden on the 19th of may 2014 and you left on the 12th of january 2018 and you say prior to this i was in the army for 10 years
00:03:20 army for 10 years uh you then became a marketing manager based in dubai and then for the 10 years prior to joining ryden you were a painter and decorator is that correct that's correct and then
00:03:33 and then is it right that your first role as site manager was on joining ryden in may 2014 yes no i worked for a company called dw in
00:03:44 i worked for a company called dw in oxford where i was um had several positions as site manager looking after refurbs yeah when was that um that was prior to joining ryden's immediately passed immediately
00:03:55 ryden's immediately passed immediately yeah 2013. yeah now um you tell us in paragraph three that when you joined ryden you was you were the lead site manager
00:04:07 you was you were the lead site manager for a refurbishment project at the ymca in eling
00:04:11 in eling and then you tell us that you worked on the
00:04:15 the grenfell tower project between the 31st of july and the 18th of march 2016 as a site manager we see that there yep now prior to taking up
00:04:25 taking up your role as a site manager for the ymca project
00:04:28 project did you receive any training from ryden prior to taking up that role um as a site manager no because that's an individual
00:04:39 individual training agency that does that right um more specifically yes um for first aid and and those kind of things yeah so supportive goals so when you say it's a training agency
00:04:50 so when you say it's a training agency that does that does that mean you yourself had undertaken some training with
00:04:53 with yeah there's a standard um training to be a site manager i see and you've done that training yes yeah can you recall when you did that i would have been about
00:05:04 i would have been about three four years previous to that because i'd had to do refreshing going into it runs every five years can you recall whether that training covers the requirements of the building
00:05:15 the requirements of the building regulations it mentions building regulations but doesn't go into detail yeah
00:05:22 and did you have any other training and you talked about first aid but was there any other training relevant to your role as site manager before you took up the role of site manager on the grenfell project
00:05:34 project um not relevant to just grenfell no yeah now in your role as site manager on the grenfell project did you have a written job description um no i didn't because the roles varied
00:05:48 um no i didn't because the roles varied um i did probably three or four different roles during that project right yeah but at no stage with any of those roles did you have a written job description is that
00:05:59 written job description is that not i recall yeah and prior to the grenfell project did you have any experience of over cladding projects no but i didn't have
00:06:08 have any involvement with the overcladding at grenfell either no i i appreciate you all
00:06:12 all you were looking at the internals and the the windows um but it touches on the overcladding obviously because there's new windows being installed yeah yeah okay um but you nevertheless
00:06:24 yeah yeah okay um but you nevertheless you haven't had any experience of of over cladding on other projects
00:06:28 projects um yes the ymca ealing had cladding but it wasn't over 18 meters so right yeah it does vary slightly and you had any
00:06:36 had any any other experience with high rise over 18 meter buildings no now just looking in more detail your specific role on the grenfell project we've seen that you were the site
00:06:49 we've seen that you were the site manager at ryden between the 19th of may 2014 and the 12th of sorry you worked on the grenfell project as a site manager between the 31st of july 2015 and the 18th of march 2016.
00:07:01 july 2015 and the 18th of march 2016. that's correct isn't it that's correct yeah can you just explain to us the the hierarchy of site managers on the grenfell project and who was immediately senior or dunya to you
00:07:14 or dunya to you when i first came on board for the project it was simon lawrence as the contracts manager and simon o'connor as project manager um and then jason north as site manager
00:07:26 um and then jason north as site manager and i came in after that when they both left dave hughes came in as senior site manager stroke project manager if you like
00:07:35 like and um steve blake took over as contracts manager yes i see so who was your direct line manager as a site manager it was a dotted line into dave hughes
00:07:47 it was a dotted line into dave hughes and a solid line into steve blake okay now just thinking about um the chronology we know that mr o'connor left on the 23rd of july 2015
00:08:00 on the 23rd of july 2015 and we know that mr hughes didn't start until the 20th of october 2015. so there was a gap there between july and october 2015. who did you understand
00:08:11 and october 2015. who did you understand to be the project manager during that time
00:08:15 time um simon lawrence
00:08:18 continued right way through until steve took over and steve was coming up on site quite regularly at that time we know simon lawrence was the contract manager did you also think he was the project manager during that he took on both roles during
00:08:29 during that he took on both roles during the interim yeah and what about senior site manager during that time who was that there wasn't one that i recall
00:08:40 recall or it probably was jason north but i don't know whether he was actually identified as senior site manager but he took on that role
00:08:47 role i see so who would you be directly reporting to as your line manager during that period and simon lawrence on site
00:08:58 and simon lawrence on site now looking back to paragraph four of your witness statement you tell us there that your role on the project was to supervise subcontractors their health and safety the quality of
00:09:09 their health and safety the quality of their work and that the work was meeting the delivery program you see that there yeah
00:09:16 had you received any particular training to supervise subcontractors only sort of 10 years experience in doing so
00:09:27 experience in doing so 10 years experience doing managing subcontractors what was that experience as a site manager prior to joining ryden's right as well as obviously the ymca which is
00:09:38 as well as obviously the ymca which is the first project with ryden's
00:09:44 now we know that ryden was appointed onto the project in march 2014 um in your role as site manager were you provided with any information about ryden's contractual
00:09:55 information about ryden's contractual obligations only having uh other than having the documentation on site to read through when i first started and did you read through any of that yeah can you remember what you read um
00:10:06 yeah can you remember what you read um the health and safety plan um construction phase plan and there would have been a few other documents which i
00:10:13 which i i don't recall do you think you would have read any of the employers requirements including maybe the nbs specification
00:10:22 did anyone at ryden ever explain in general terms what ryden's contractual obligations were on the project not directly but it was something that was talked about obviously quite often um in that we had
00:10:35 obviously quite often um in that we had to meet those obligations on an ongoing basis
00:10:37 basis yeah paragraph 14 of your witness statement if we just have a quick look at that
00:10:44 at that you tell us um in paragraph 14 that certain things weren't included in the contract so you say fire alarm sensors were installed in the communal areas but it was not in the
00:10:55 areas but it was not in the refurbishment contract for ryden to install fire alarms or sprinkler systems and in the next sentence you also say it's not in the contract to install fire doors to the flats so how in
00:11:08 fire doors to the flats so how in practice were you made aware of the matters which were within widens contract and which were not um just through the work we had to carry out um we had a specification of works to follow yeah
00:11:21 to follow yeah but which bits of that specification did you actually read or were told about i would have read through everything that was required to know what to implement
00:11:29 implement i see yeah what was there a specification that was limited just to the particular areas that you were concerned with yes i included those on there because i
00:11:40 yes i included those on there because i do remember front doors for instance a lot over the period of time since the building was built tenants had changed their own doors and we didn't know where they were fire rates or anything but it didn't come under
00:11:51 under the um contract so we left them as they were
00:11:55 were so that that specification you looked at if it wasn't the nbs specification can you remember what the specification was i can't no
00:12:06 were you aware that ryden was under a duty to complete the works in a proper and work
00:12:10 and work workmanlike manner and in accordance with good building practice most definitely yes and also in compliance with statutory requirements including
00:12:17 including the building regulations yes we've talked about the fact that part of your role is to supervise subcontracts and the quality of their work
00:12:30 and the quality of their work did you understand that this supervision would include ensuring that the subcontractors carried out the works in a proper and workmanlike manner in accordance with good building practice and in compliance with the building regulations absolutely
00:12:42 regulations absolutely can i can i expand on that just a second um
00:12:45 um i carried i i devised a tracker which was a large spreadsheet with sign-offs for every single stage of the process whether it be talking to the tenants
00:12:57 whether it be talking to the tenants prior to doing the work and explaining to them
00:12:59 to them um they need to move things meter away from the walls to give us space to work the tvs were working they signed it to say they were happy to go ahead
00:13:07 ahead we that was with the rlo we then went in carried out the work and we and the strip out was done again i got a sign a sign off from the subcontractors
00:13:18 subcontractors and when the work was carried out i signed it off i got the tenants to sign it off to say they were happy and the um clerk of works also signed it off and it all went down on the tracker
00:13:30 off and it all went down on the tracker yeah
00:13:30 yeah um with the dates relevant so every flat was ticked off yeah we were going to come to that a bit later in your evidence but actually i'll take you to that now because clearly you know it's important to for you to
00:13:41 you know it's important to for you to look at if we can go we think we found it um ryd 307004 and i think we'll need the native version
00:13:55 that's the one great so that is the tracker we'll come back and look at this later again that um you were completing as
00:14:06 again that um you were completing as the the project went on is that correct yeah
00:14:09 yeah i devised it from start to finish yeah yeah and recording the work that was complete in terms of different parts of the building correct and then this was to lead into the health and safety file and obviously the um manual yeah
00:14:23 and obviously the um manual yeah if we can just look at some columns that appear a bit in the far right there's a column ak
00:14:32 and al do you see that on the far right hand side
00:14:37 hand side under the column design it's the orange one the wings won't design yes and i'm not sure that was a request of i believe the tmo to put that in and it wasn't for me to fill in right so
00:14:50 and it wasn't for me to fill in right so i'm not quite sure what that require um so it represents yeah was the intention that that column would record compliance with the employer's requirements and design compliance i can comment on
00:15:02 and design compliance i can comment on that i didn't you don't know so you were asked to include this but that was not something that you were feeling yes it was adopted um the whole the whole idea of doing this was for the tmo
00:15:11 tmo to put the health and safety file together and it's something they want included but as to why i don't know because i never sort of filled in yeah i left before the end of the project yeah and then at column a
00:15:23 project yeah and then at column a e which is headed tmo we can see some some black dates can you see that on there third from the left that says clark of works handover so is that the date that the clerk of
00:15:35 so is that the date that the clerk of works have accepted yes they visited every single flat and signed it off yeah so just to be clear when you were filling in your sections of this recording that the work was complete in different
00:15:46 work was complete in different areas did you think that you were checking
00:15:49 checking that it was compliant with the building regulations i was checking that it was compliant with the works that had gone previously because i joined and the works had already started yeah so yes i i presumed it was
00:16:02 yeah so yes i i presumed it was um and we had building regular um we had the building regulations come around with us and we visited flats and they didn't pick up anything so i presumed it was
00:16:13 pick up anything so i presumed it was compliant
00:16:14 compliant yeah so just a couple of things on that i think what you're saying is that because
00:16:18 because you were checking that the work was consistent with what had been done on site before you got there you assumed it was compliant yes everything had to echo we had a
00:16:27 we had a show flat um and everything had to echo the show flat precisely yeah so the standards were approved there so i presume they were proved everywhere yeah but you yourself didn't ever consciously
00:16:39 but you yourself didn't ever consciously think when you were checking individual flats right i'm just checking that this is compliant with the building regulations and i was checking that the quality was of the same standard that other flats yeah they've been made up to
00:16:51 other flats yeah they've been made up to and then i think what you said later in your answer before was that um building control or you meant to say building control came round and they were happy is that is that correct yeah well again we'll come back
00:17:02 correct yeah well again we'll come back to that
00:17:04 to that thank you for that that's that's really helpful um just in terms of um your knowledge at the time
00:17:12 the time did you have a working knowledge of the requirements in the building regulations at the time of the grenfell project
00:17:20 um generally speaking yes but not in huge detail were you aware that the building regulations set down functional requirements that had to be achieved
00:17:32 be achieved uh define can you define that for me yeah a functional requirement is a kind of a performance that it's got to achieve at the end of the day yes i was aware
00:17:43 aware i mean things like fire eggs fire retardancy for doors fire seals smoke seals et cetera yes did you know anything about um
00:17:54 did you know anything about um the b4 requirement an external fire spread that the external walls should adequately resist the spread of fire over the walls and from one building to another no because again i wouldn't have involved
00:18:05 because again i wouldn't have involved myself in that because i wasn't looking after the externals did you know anything about unseen fire spread and compartmentation yes what did you know about that um that
00:18:16 yes what did you know about that um that each flat was its own fire compartment and that fire stopping and each floor was its own fire compartment as well so fire stopping was carried out between all floors
00:18:27 all floors and all flats and all entry points into the flats
00:18:31 the flats i see we'll come back to that a little bit more when we look at the the windows at the time of the grenfell project were you familiar with any of the approved documents
00:18:43 approved documents yeah so under the the building act um there's practical guidance that has to be given not precisely no in relation to the building regulations and that comes in
00:18:55 building regulations and that comes in the form of various approved documents no it wasn't no so you hadn't um ever considered something called approved document b on fire safety no
00:19:05 no [Applause] were you aware in general terms that different rules applied to buildings over 18 meters at the time not at the time no had you ever heard
00:19:18 not at the time no had you ever heard of the phrase limited combustibility i'd heard the phrase yes what did you think that meant um this fireproof fire retardant um and
00:19:29 this fireproof fire retardant um and limited combustibility was the fact that it could catch fire but slowly but i didn't have any um concerns at the time
00:19:39 time because it i didn't relate that to anything that was going on so i had no specification i know no um involvement in the specification materials yeah okay
00:19:50 were you aware that uh cavity barriers had to be provided to close the edge of cavities including around openings uh yes but if you were talking about
00:20:01 uh yes but if you were talking about windows
00:20:02 windows specifically um there was a barrier um a foil and tape barrier placed around the whole window opening and when i
00:20:13 and when i thought about um it should be a fire barrel or shouldn't be a fire barrier i checked with the drawings and asked um and i can't remember who i asked but the comment back was that there was vertical
00:20:25 comment back was that there was vertical and horizontal fire barriers um continuing the compartment out through through to the exterior cladding i see so they weren't required around
00:20:37 i see so they weren't required around the window were you specifically told that that they weren't required around the window yeah and can you recall who might have told you that i i don't recall but it prompted me to
00:20:49 i i don't recall but it prompted me to look at the drawings and there was nothing on the drawings to suggest that they should be do you think it was somebody within ryden that you would have spoken honestly you can't remember is it possible you spoke to someone outside ryden about that question
00:21:00 outside ryden about that question um it would have been three people probably
00:21:03 probably um taff from um harley's it would have been probably dave hughes it could have been jason north or it would have been the clock of works it would have been one of those people
00:21:14 it would have been one of those people okay thank you
00:21:19 now just looking at um paragraphs five and six of your witness statement if we can go back to those on page one i think
00:21:29 ryd three zeroes yeah thanks so um you tell us that you oversaw the works to the interior of the flats including where relevant the snagging and sign-off process
00:21:41 and sign-off process and then you talk about you also involved in the part ensuring the pipes were fire sealed um and then you say in paragraph six you say the subcontractors i worked with
00:21:52 say the subcontractors i worked with included hanley's it meant to be hardly sorry yeah that was my first question so that's harley who were fitting the windows as part of the exterior cladding sd plastering who were fitting a fire
00:22:04 sd plastering who were fitting a fire resistant seal between the window unit and internal sill as well as installing the upvc window trim
00:22:10 trim inside the flats that's correct and then you talk about xsd carpentry who were carrying out the boxing in of the pipe work yeah that was more to do with the hius the heat interchange units
00:22:21 the heat interchange units yeah and hiding the pipe work through the rads and kitchens yeah now did you know that harley were not in fact fitting the windows themselves and they had subcontracted that work out to osborne
00:22:33 subcontracted that work out to osborne berry
00:22:35 berry um i put harleys down because i i clumped them all together um to me that was tough
00:22:41 was tough taff was my main point of contact and when you were working on the project did you think taff actually worked for harleys
00:22:50 harleys but it's clearly not so you didn't know at the time that taft worked for a different company called osborne berry they were subcontracted through harley when they
00:22:58 when they they were yeah yeah but you didn't know that at the time no no i may have done at the time but i don't recollect it
00:23:07 now um what did you understand harley and osborne berry's work in terms of the windows to involve literally just fitting the external skin of the windows and then the sill and trim work were to be done by sd
00:23:21 sill and trim work were to be done by sd plastering yeah were you responsible for inspecting harley's work on the windows and the window window infill panels um no just the windows themselves that
00:23:33 um no just the windows themselves that they were operational yeah and then demonstrating the operational efficiency to the tenants and getting their sign off with handbooks and manuals and bits and pieces so it was
00:23:44 manuals and bits and pieces so it was mainly the internals and the handover to the client yeah and we can see as we saw that you start off paragraph five saying i oversaw the works to the interior of the flats does that mean that you weren't
00:23:56 flats does that mean that you weren't ever involved in anything in terms of inspecting outside the building from the outside in no no um
00:24:05 no um paragraph 10 just to cover off that point you say that you weren't involved in any you say i did not have any involvement in the external works what do you mean by external works there do you mean
00:24:17 external works there do you mean the cladding yeah um yeah and the aovs which are the um i can't remember what it stands for now but basically the free flow of fresh air through
00:24:28 the free flow of fresh air through the smoke smoke um taking the smoke out of each floor so they were done by dave hughes yeah so it's just the decoration really the fire stopping
00:24:40 stopping so just to be clear in terms of harley's work did you ever think it was part of your role to be checking whether that work was compliant with the building regulations or associated guidance
00:24:52 who else in ryden was responsible for checking for that do you know i would have thought dave hughes
00:25:00 hughes did you understand that he was checking for that at the time that he was on the project
00:25:05 project i worked with dave on the ymca project and know him to be an extremely thorough person so yes i would expect him to have been all over it yeah now i want to ask you some more detailed
00:25:17 now i want to ask you some more detailed questions about the work of sd plastering that we've referred to there and i want to take you first to the witness statement of mr mark dixon of xsd plastering if we can go to that that's sdp five
00:25:29 if we can go to that that's sdp five zeros
00:25:30 zeros one nine six
00:25:33 and i want to look at page three paragraph thirteen so um just in that first sentence there
00:25:45 so um just in that first sentence there he says
00:25:46 he says in or around april 2015 i was asked by an employee of ryden whose identity i cannot recall with certainty if sdpl would provide a quotation for undertaking cosmetic works in
00:25:59 for undertaking cosmetic works in finishing off the surrounds to newly installed windows in each residential unit
00:26:04 unit at the grenfell tower do you see that there i do yes now can you just help us what was your understanding at the time of exactly what sd plastering were doing it was the upbc
00:26:15 sd plastering were doing it was the upbc trim around the windows and [Music]
00:26:20 [Music] basically boards around around the room mainly cosmetics yeah when you say boards around the room what do you mean by that um [Music]
00:26:34 there was a trim element that went around the room completely um as well as the linkedin to the windowsills right okay we're going to look at some photographs in a minute so that might
00:26:45 photographs in a minute so that might help you tell us um so if we look at paragraph six of your witness statement again um on page one of that statement
00:26:56 um on page one of that statement we can see there that you you say that um
00:26:59 um in the second line sd plastering who were fitting a fire resistant seal between the window unit and internal sills
00:27:07 sills as well as installing the upvc do you see that there now i just want to ask you some questions about this fire resistant seal can we start with looking at an image from dr lane's report if we can go to
00:27:20 from dr lane's report if we can go to blas 608
00:27:23 blas 608 at page 24
00:27:28 and i want to zoom in on the image at the bottom of that page first figure 8.25 so what we see here is the window with that upvc having been taken off
00:27:41 that upvc having been taken off yeah yeah so am i right that this is what it would look like before sdp do any work onto the window is that correct that's correct yes so we can see that
00:27:52 that's correct yes so we can see that the new window is in there the new window frame location and we've got the
00:27:57 got the an edpm weatherproof membrane that's been installed that would all be done by harley and its contractors now with reference to this photo can you
00:28:09 now with reference to this photo can you just
00:28:09 just help us as to where this fire resistance seal is that you're referring to it would have gone from um the upvc window uh
00:28:21 the upvc window uh on that little ledge inside right the way through to the um the front of the opening actually inside the flat right so it was a complete barrier right the way around
00:28:32 the way around and what did that seal consist of what materials was it made of it was a silver foil and paper type material i'm not sure the specifications of it right okay so something is going to sit
00:28:45 right okay so something is going to sit in that gap to bridge that gap between the new window
00:28:50 window sill and we can see the old windowsills the wooden yep at the bottom is that correct
00:29:00 and what was your understanding of the purpose of that material in that location
00:29:05 location um i wasn't 100 sure but it was some kind of fire delay and smoke deterrent
00:29:13 deterrent other than that i didn't know how how did you come by that knowledge that it was some kind of fire delay and smoke deterrent process of elimination it had to be there for a reason otherwise we wouldn't put it in
00:29:24 reason otherwise we wouldn't put it in i see um but i knew there the um fire compartment went out as far as the outside cladding so it didn't have to be a permanent barrier as such
00:29:35 as such did you ever ask anybody about the purpose of that um fire resistant seal as you've described no i didn't know it was it was already being fitted when i joined the project so it just carried on being fitted so is
00:29:47 so it just carried on being fitted so is it right that you've made an assumption that it was a far-resistant product yes but you didn't know for sure what that product was no
00:29:59 if we look at um another photograph from dr lane's report then we'll see the head of the window as well so this is blas 608 at page 17
00:30:10 608 at page 17 and i want to look at figure 8.15
00:30:19 so on the left hand side at the top if we can zoom in on those two top photos
00:30:26 so left hand side we're seeing a very similar image perhaps even the same image to what we saw before in terms of the sill
00:30:33 the sill but then on the right we can see uh the head of the window do you see that there yes i do and is this fire resistant seal um
00:30:45 and is this fire resistant seal um actually present there um in in the form of that bit of foam and the silver foil is that that might be the remnants of it certainly
00:30:56 certainly yeah is that what you remember it looking like broadly no the inside was a was sort of brown paper
00:31:03 paper um cardboard effect and then the outside was the foil so it's obviously perished in the fire and that's the remains of it yeah but that looks like it yes yeah now if you go to paragraph 12 of your
00:31:16 now if you go to paragraph 12 of your witness statement and in that paragraph
00:31:23 you you mention a fire barrier so in the last sentence you say a fire barrier was fitted around the window void so there was no gap between the window unit and inner formed
00:31:35 between the window unit and inner formed concrete seals that's the mesh i was talking about yeah so that's my point is it exactly the same
00:31:41 same material that you were talking about earlier yes that's the point i didn't want confused when i first mentioned it earlier now what we know from the post-far
00:31:53 now what we know from the post-far inspections of the tower is that insulation board with a foil face was used to bridge
00:32:00 bridge the gap around the windows insulation was used all around the windows at sil head and jam positions
00:32:12 is it right that you didn't know at the time that that was insulation board i would have known it was insulation but um as to its other properties i didn't know but you'd made an assumption that there was some kind
00:32:24 an assumption that there was some kind of fire
00:32:24 of fire purpose to it yes so just a couple of images if we go again to doctor lane can i just interrupt you for a second a moment ago you described this material as
00:32:35 material as being a bit like paper on one side with a foil
00:32:39 a foil correct face on the other yeah was it flexible was it rigid it was flexible right thank you okay
00:32:48 can we have a look at the uh dr lane's report again this is blas 609 page six and i want to look at figure 9.3
00:33:01 so i think that's probably actually the same image but we can see it a little bit more clearly so what we see and what the post-fire inspections showed is that
00:33:12 inspections showed is that the original timber window linings were left in place but then the gap between those at the head of the window and
00:33:20 and the new window frame was plugged with combustible insulation do you see that there
00:33:27 there i i do see it i don't recognize it but i do see it
00:33:31 do see it so that's not something you were familiar with no i don't remember any of the timbers being left in around the windows
00:33:40 but clearly clearly we're looking at the photograph here do you actually have a recollection of timber window reveals being taken out and seeing them lying around i don't remember sorry
00:33:52 remember sorry now um let's just look at another picture this is at sil level now if we can go within professor bisbee's report to lbys
00:34:03 within professor bisbee's report to lbys 601 at 67
00:34:11 so this is if we look at the top figure figure 38 what professor bisby's done is give us a vertical section through a typical window sill
00:34:23 typical window sill illustrating the material layout and the geometry do you see that there i do yeah and what he's done is um he's shown that underneath the upvc windowsill in the middle of the picture
00:34:34 windowsill in the middle of the picture is a pir foam insulation board which has been stuck with adhesive to the upvc windowsill you see that there i do and that's the only product
00:34:45 only product that this expert found in that sill location
00:34:50 location it also had a an insulating board again is that something you were aware of at the time of the movie no my recollection is that this taped
00:35:01 my recollection is that this taped barrier
00:35:02 barrier went from the front of the sill right the way to the window the upvc window itself right and because there was there was no gaps once that had been done
00:35:13 once that had been done yeah and that's what we had the clocker works inspect to make sure there was no gaps
00:35:18 gaps on how many occasions do you think you saw that taped every single window because that was part of my sign off right is it possible that the insulation could have been underneath what you were
00:35:29 have been underneath what you were looking at no no so you don't you positively don't recall
00:35:34 recall any foam insulation in that location um so the foam insulation could be underneath the tape but it's the tape i would recall as part as
00:35:42 as the sign off the fact that the cavity was completely sealed
00:35:49 can we also look at a different cavity this is one between the window infill panels and the new window panel if we look at back to dr lane's report blas 608
00:36:00 report blas 608 a page 20 figure 8.19
00:36:07 so in that image at the top what we see is a a gap between the old winter
00:36:14 winter window infill panel do you remember these were white panels on the tower when you looked from the outside um i didn't yeah yes yes yes so she's showing a gap between the old infill
00:36:26 showing a gap between the old infill panel and the new info panel and we've got quite a big gap there do you see that there i do and we can see in a number of images that insulation
00:36:38 in a number of images that insulation has been put down that jam location at the side of the window was that something you were aware of i don't recall seeing that
00:36:50 let's have another look at a perhaps a better image if we could look at blas 609 page 20 at figure 9.13
00:37:02 page 20 at figure 9.13 and if we can just zoom in on that
00:37:06 so again so this is looking to the side looking at the window infill panels from the opening and what we can see is that on the left
00:37:17 and what we can see is that on the left there's combustible insulation filling the gap
00:37:20 the gap with a foil face on the top do you see that there yep now again is that consistent with your recollection of yes that is that's that's the stuff i was um talking about earlier
00:37:31 earlier great so so just to be absolutely clear that is what you recall seeing at the sill location as well yes and at the head location
00:37:43 yes and at the head location and at the head location yes yeah now looking at these photos now so you can't
00:37:54 looking at these photos now so you can't quite see it but that is in fact it's got a celetex branding on it that full face um there's some red writing and you can just see the ex so what the experts found is that there
00:38:06 so what the experts found is that there was combustible insulation sometimes celatex sometimes kingspan in those locations uh on site do you agree looking at this now that
00:38:16 now that what you thought was a fire resistant seal or a fire barrier was actually that combustible insulation product yes
00:38:29 and i think we've established earlier that your
00:38:32 that your your evidence in your statement that it was a fire resistant seal or a fire barrier
00:38:37 barrier was merely an assumption you made that's
00:38:44 correct but nobody actually told you that on site i don't recall being told anything like that were you responsible
00:38:55 anything like that were you responsible for inspecting um the the internal window reveals before the upvc was installed yes i was
00:39:06 before the upvc was installed yes i was so you didn't just inspect once the up upvc was no no it was inspected to make sure that that barrier was put in place and when you were inspecting in that in
00:39:17 and when you were inspecting in that in that condition so before the upvc trim has gone on what were you inspecting for what were you looking for any gaps make sure it was all fitted correctly yeah
00:39:28 yeah and and why were you concerned about gaps um
00:39:31 gaps um because i was told to look out for gaps
00:39:37 just to make sure that you know the work was done competently yeah yeah
00:39:46 [Applause]
00:39:49 so does it follow from your answers that you didn't ever check for yourself whether the placing of this insulation board was compliant with the building regulations or any other industry guidance no i didn't because it
00:40:01 industry guidance no i didn't because it would have been started and i just took over the role yeah during your work on the project did you ever become aware of any problems concerning the extent of gaps
00:40:13 concerning the extent of gaps between the edge of the old concrete window enclosure and the new window frames as i mentioned earlier i did look at the drawings and the drawings showed there
00:40:25 drawings and the drawings showed there was nothing to be put in there because the fire compartment was actually around the outside the externals of the flats to the cladding so that would have been the fire barrier by
00:40:37 that would have been the fire barrier by that do you mean that on the external um side of the window there was a cavity barrier at compartment lines both horizontally and vertically yes
00:40:48 and vertically yes but that wasn't immediately around the window no it wasn't no no
00:40:56 now just going back to paragraph six of your statement you don't mention insulation in your description of the works if we look at paragraph six i realize this is
00:41:07 this is just a summary of who you were supervising but nowhere there does it say insulation were you aware at the time that combustible insulation was being used around the windows
00:41:18 around the windows at the time of the project no no definitely not
00:41:24 now i just want to take you to um a quotation that was prepared by sd plastering this was dated the 29th of may 2015 for the transcript we know that from mr
00:41:35 the transcript we know that from mr dixon's statement at paragraph 30. and if we look at the quotation if we go it's sdp 50189
00:41:52 so if we could just blow that up and i if we can blow up the top half of that um quotation so this was from sd plastering mr dixon speaks to it
00:42:05 plastering mr dixon speaks to it and if you look in the second row in description of item there's words that say place celetex insulation to reveals
00:42:17 to reveals and the base of window do you see that there i do yes now do you recall ever seeing this quotation when you worked on the grenfell project
00:42:28 when you worked on the grenfell project no definitely not this would have been um a document created back at tender stage
00:42:36 stage yeah and i didn't get involved in any of the pricings
00:42:44 were you aware um at the time i think it must follow from your answers that you weren't that the type of insulation was actually celetex tb 4000. i didn't get involved in that at all
00:42:55 at all no and interchangeably there was also kingspan thermopitch tp10 that was also used around the windows were you ever aware of that when you were
00:43:06 of that when you were site manager um i i knew it was being used
00:43:09 used um some form of insulation i didn't know what and what rating it was or anything else
00:43:14 else yeah no details on it at all so you didn't ever see any branding on the foil face um that would have been branding on but i wouldn't have taken any notice of it because it wasn't part
00:43:25 any notice of it because it wasn't part of my remit i see so you wouldn't have been aware when the branding might have changed
00:43:32 changed i wouldn't have noticed no okay
00:43:39 all right should we carry on keep going yeah um
00:43:43 yeah um so you weren't aware of anything about the fire performance of the celetex insulation or the kingspan insulation
00:43:55 kingspan insulation did you give mr dixon or any anyone else within
00:43:59 within sdp any instructions with regard to compartmentation during your time as project manager i wasn't project manager sorry doing a job site manager um
00:44:10 sorry doing a job site manager um so can you repeat the question yeah did you give mr dickson or any other representatives of sd plastering any instructions with regard to compartmentation during your time as site manager um it
00:44:23 during your time as site manager um it didn't really fall under their remit most of the compartmentalization that um i was involved with was with the um js rights putting the feeds for the hiu the new heating
00:44:35 the feeds for the hiu the new heating system and hot water into the flats above the front doors and fine sealing inside and outs for them um so i didn't really get involved with that
00:44:44 that side of tour other than what we've already discussed with around the windows
00:44:50 windows did you have much direct interaction with sdp at all yes yeah i'd speak to mark every time he was on site and i worked very closely with his team yeah
00:44:59 yeah what about instructions about materials or
00:45:03 or fire safety at any stage during the works did you ever have those conversations with sdp no um everything was as per the show flat so
00:45:12 flat so it was just mirror image in each flat yeah
00:45:17 yeah now a paragraph 12 of your witness statement if we could look back at that on page two
00:45:26 you say um apart from the fire stopping work detailed above i did not have any additional involvement with the fire safety aspects of the refurbishment however i do believe that fire safety
00:45:37 however i do believe that fire safety was considered as part of the project do you see that there i do now on what basis did you believe that fire safety was considered as part of the project only that in meetings i'd been a party
00:45:48 only that in meetings i'd been a party to everything else there was a lot of talks about it but i didn't involve myself too much because it was the exterior and on the interior side when i was
00:45:59 and on the interior side when i was looking after the communal areas each floor the fire rating of the materials we were using i.e paint fire and smoke stills on doors and that type of stuff
00:46:12 so it's just because you were present at meetings when you yeah i mean on a project like this all the project managers um site managers all sit in the same office and conversations are banded around
00:46:24 and conversations are banded around across the room so you do pick up an awful lot of information excuse me um on a day-to-day basis mr martin you're speaking quite fast sorry can i just no no it's all good but if you can just
00:46:37 no no it's all good but if you can just try and
00:46:37 try and keep it just slightly slower for the transcriber that would be great um did you yourself though ever involve yourself directly in any
00:46:48 ever involve yourself directly in any fire safety discussions with subcontractors with the use of materials in the communal areas using a crown zero fire retardant paint
00:46:59 using a crown zero fire retardant paint on the walls was my only involvement i remember
00:47:04 right yeah i understand we look at uh paragraph 15 of your witness statement on page two you say that
00:47:17 on page two you say that um in the second sentence in my view any building company realizes that it has to comply with fire safety
00:47:26 safety and as far as i was aware the refurbishment complied with building regulations do you see that there i do yeah now just the first bit you say um
00:47:35 um in my view any building company realizes it has to comply with fire safety one statement as a prerequisite yes yeah and then you say as far as i was aware
00:47:47 and then you say as far as i was aware the refurbishment complied with building regulations now that last part in what i um in what way sorry if you just
00:47:55 just um sorry in what ways did you take account of fire safety when you were doing your job so you can i i carried out my
00:48:06 so you can i i carried out my work as per all the guidance i've been given as per specified drawings from studio e and as per instructions
00:48:18 and as per instructions for that work and when you say as far as i was aware the refurbishment complied with building regulations what did you base that on when you wrote i i quite often
00:48:28 often escorted building safety around the building itself when during their visits because they had to be accompanied and there was nothing i ever picked up at the time
00:48:39 at the time so i i presumed that we were compliant and most of those meetings with building control were steve and dave at that level so i didn't
00:48:50 steve and dave at that level so i didn't get too involved in that and when you say i quite often escorted building safety around the building itself do you mean building control yes i do yeah that's helpful um can you help us as to why ryden
00:49:03 um can you help us as to why ryden didn't give sd plastering any instructions with regard to
00:49:06 regard to compartmentation materials or fire safety
00:49:11 safety before or during the carrying out of the works
00:49:15 works um i'm not sure what that relates to could you could you repeat that again yeah can you help us as to why ryden didn't give sd plastering any instructions with regard to compartmentation
00:49:27 regard to compartmentation materials or fire safety before or during the carrying out of their works i'm sure they would have done because as part of giving them a spec to carry out
00:49:37 carry out a body of work they would have been briefed as what materials and how to carry it out and was your assumption that they would have been briefed about the far safety performance of those materials
00:49:49 performance of those materials i i don't know i don't know that was again before my time that would have been taken up a pre-show flat but did you make that assumption when you were working i made that assumption yes
00:50:01 now just looking at paragraph 10 of your witness statement on page two in the second sentence you say this in addition i was not involved in fire strategy or in any
00:50:13 involved in fire strategy or in any attendance at meetings with the fire brigade do you see that there i do did you understand that there was a far strategy for the works at grenfell tower
00:50:22 tower um there's always a fire plan put in place for every project as part of the health and safety file construction phase plan did you yourself uh ever come to look at
00:50:33 did you yourself uh ever come to look at the fire strategy during the course of your um i
00:50:37 your um i familiarized myself with the fire plan and i remember at the time thinking about
00:50:41 about stay put policy i'd never come across that before and think about that then so yes i did were you aware that ryden's contractual documentation included an
00:50:53 documentation included an outline fire safety strategy that had been issued by x over in november 2013. um yes were you ever provided with that when you worked on the project i had
00:51:04 when you worked on the project i had availability to it all writing documentation is kept on the server
00:51:10 server and is available to look at any time do you recall actually looking at it at any time
00:51:14 time i do yes did you notice that uh parts of it referred to an analysis in a future issue that parts of it look were incomplete you don't recall that
00:51:27 perhaps let's just quickly just look at that if we go to um cst 50702 at page nine
00:51:47 at the top of that page is a section about compliance with b4 external file spread do you see that there i do and it says that it is considered that the proposed changes will have no adverse effect on the building
00:51:58 adverse effect on the building in relation to external fire spread but this will be confirmed by an analysis in a future issue of this report do you see that there i do yes do you recall reading that or
00:52:09 yes do you recall reading that or noticing anything about it during the process i did read it it doesn't spring to it doesn't ring any bells right now but um certainly the time i read through the document
00:52:18 document but did you ever ask anybody anything about the
00:52:21 about the future analysis that had been promised in this
00:52:24 in this part of the report no as i say my role was
00:52:28 was really the internals and the fire compartments were pretty much for one of a better word set in concrete um apart from the external barrier between the old
00:52:40 the external barrier between the old concrete wall and the new cladding which was being looked after by another company
00:52:44 company yeah now paragraph 15 of your witness statement
00:52:50 statement by the way i should say we've just been told that some of these bangs are to do with the
00:52:55 with the building works that are going on upstairs so um some of them are quite loud but it's nothing it's nothing to be concerned about
00:53:03 about um so paragraph 15 uh in that um last sentence sorry actually i've asked you about this already i've asked you about that
00:53:25 i'm just looking through my questions because some of your answers have avoided the need for me to ask sorry i've jumped around all over the place no no no it's good it's good
00:53:36 so just going back to the witness statement of mr dixon of sd plastering uh if we could go to that this is sdp 50196
00:53:46 50196 at page seven and i want to look at paragraph 32 of his witness statement
00:53:53 so you see there that's where in the first
00:53:57 first sub-paragraph and the second sub-paragraph 32.1 and 32.2 he's confirming that it was celetex tb4000 and kingspan thermopitch insulation boards
00:54:09 kingspan thermopitch insulation boards so just to be clear did you ever agree the use of the kingspan thermopitch insulation boards around the windows no as i say all materials were qualified
00:54:21 no as i say all materials were qualified prior to my starting did anybody ever tell you that the use of the kingspan thermopitch insulation had been agreed not that i can recall because it doesn't
00:54:34 not that i can recall because it doesn't appear in the quotation from sdp that we looked at previously do you recall where it just talked about celetex and we're just interested to know
00:54:42 know whether you can help us as to whether somebody at ryden approved the use of that
00:54:47 that insulation around the windows i'm guessing that would have been done at tender stage okay
00:54:56 and i think it follows from your earlier answers but you can't help us as to approximately how much of that kingspan thermopitch was used around the windows because you said you weren't concentrating on
00:55:07 you said you weren't concentrating on that is that correct i i don't recall
00:55:16 now just some further questions on the top of it inspect on the topic of inspections can you just explain how how you understood ryden to be ensuring
00:55:29 how you understood ryden to be ensuring that work carried out by the subcontractors complied with the design the drawings the specifications and the building regulations it was my role to inspect it and make sure it complied
00:55:40 to inspect it and make sure it complied with the drawings and once that was done and the work completed
00:55:45 completed then i would get the clerk of works at every stage to sign it off to say they were happy with it on behalf of the tmo does that mean you actually had drawings in your possession that you were checking they were available to us all on the
00:55:56 they were available to us all on the server writing server with all the documentation plus we had hard copies in the office so in terms of the works around the windows would you have been looking at um harley drawings for that purpose i
00:56:07 um harley drawings for that purpose i don't recall who produced the drawings just i had a set of drawings right did ryden ever give you any written instructions in relation to inspecting the works during the time you were working on the project
00:56:20 working on the project um just guidelines from whoever i took over from i think it was jason north at the time
00:56:25 the time what did he say to you about that i don't recall exactly okay how did you know what inspections you should be carrying out and what you should be looking for during those inspections just the
00:56:37 during those inspections just the quality of work breaks in the thermal lining as we know it now
00:56:43 it now and then the plaster not the plasterboard the upvc work around that it's fitted correctly that it's sealed it's mastic in um and then obviously following that to
00:56:55 um and then obviously following that to demonstrate the windows and everything to the
00:56:58 to the tenant and make sure they've got a manual and they signed for it so we covered as much as we possibly could and everything every stage was signed for yeah and it was predominantly focusing
00:57:09 yeah and it was predominantly focusing on the quality of the work correct correct now paragraph four of your witness statement you've done you've explained to us that there was a four
00:57:17 four stage check off quality procedure that you applied if we could look back at that
00:57:23 that so we can see this first stage at little a
00:57:27 a is signed for by the tenant to say they were happy with the work and they'd been shown how to operate the windows received an instruction manual property had been left in a clean and tidy condition
00:57:40 then you say you signed a subcontractor's form to say that you were happy with the work then properties were inspected by the clerk of works to sign off and then all of these inspection reports
00:57:51 and then all of these inspection reports were collated and recorded on a spreadsheet which has been known as the tracker ever since yeah and that was the spreadsheet that i took at the beginning of your evidence yeah great
00:58:02 great there were additional checks as well we did pre
00:58:05 did pre pre-visits with the t with um linda who's the rlo she had to be escorted so it would be me involving um checking the tv works that they could
00:58:17 um checking the tv works that they could move their own furniture if they needed help
00:58:19 help and a lot of other bits and pieces involved in that and explaining the process to the tenants as well yeah now we get a little bit more detail about the sign-off and handover procedure for
00:58:30 the sign-off and handover procedure for these internal windows in an email that i'd like to look at this is a ryd
00:58:37 3050849 this is dated the 3rd of september 2015. we can have a look at this and blow up the top of it so this is an email you send on the on
00:58:50 so this is an email you send on the on that day
00:58:51 that day to john white and tony batty they're the clerks of work that's correct yep popping in simon lawrence and others at ryden and it's headed window handover procedure do you see
00:59:02 window handover procedure do you see that there yes and you say hi john tony simon has asked me to send you over a brief explanation for the sign-off and handover procedure for the internal fitting
00:59:13 fitting of the windows at grenfell tower do you see that there i do now where did this procedure come from who had
00:59:19 who had given you these instructions i don't recall it's something i put together um as this is how we should be doing it from experience more than anything else there was no document to say um this is what you must
00:59:32 document to say um this is what you must do
00:59:33 do yeah i wanted checks at every stage and a procedure that was then um carried out with each flat continuity yeah
00:59:45 continuity yeah and um we can see you say a little one a windows survey is carried out prior to any work commencing sign off sheet and the process being
00:59:56 sign off sheet and the process being explained to the occupant we see that there
00:59:59 there and then little two you say um fitting lasts for two days and consists of and you've put down what day one should involve and what day two should involve so it's
01:00:11 and what day two should involve so it's a two-day process is that correct that's correct and would you be checking it
01:00:17 it after that day one day two work before and after every day yeah yeah just to make sure that it was left tidy um and the attendant can get on with everyday life
01:00:28 attendant can get on with everyday life and at point two
01:00:34 we can see sorry within day one sorry um we can see under little f it says they're fitting and taping insulation around the window recess do
01:00:46 insulation around the window recess do you see that there yes now is that what we were discussing earlier that is yes so you did know at the time it was insulation i guess so yes but your evidence is you
01:00:58 i guess so yes but your evidence is you didn't know what type of insulation it was or anything i didn't know what the qualities that product had um i've got it down here as insulation this was written at the times i would have known about insulation
01:01:09 have known about insulation but i didn't know about any fire qualities or anything at the time and just to be clear it was no part of your check um to check whether there are any cavity barriers around the windows was it there was nothing on the drawings i did
01:01:21 there was nothing on the drawings i did check and i made i asked the question as well again i'm not sure who i asked but um i was satisfied that they didn't need to be put in place were you aware in terms of your more general knowledge that there was a
01:01:33 general knowledge that there was a requirement for cavity barriers around windows
01:01:36 windows in order to comply with the building regulations and other guidance no it wasn't so had you ever seen cavity barriers being installed around windows on
01:01:47 installed around windows on other ryden projects uh no so the ymca project that you did different sort of cladding uh um it was just the fascia not around the windows or anything so it was
01:01:59 the windows or anything so it was it was fitted in a slightly different manner um but again i didn't get involved with the fitting of that particularly much in your time as site manager prior to the grenfell project had you ever been involved in a project that had involved
01:02:11 involved in a project that had involved cladding around windows but not fitting cavity barriers no i hadn't or fitting cavity barriers around windows
01:02:21 did you ever consider what material had been used to house the kitchen extract fans
01:02:27 fans in in the the corner of the window panel material used to so in the corner of the kitchen windows was a a solid panel with a kitchen extract fan in the middle
01:02:39 extract fan in the middle did you ever consider what that material was that went around the outside of that fan
01:02:44 fan no so
01:02:48 no so does it follow that you didn't know that that material was a styrofoam extruded polystyrene cord material
01:02:55 material correct it would have been what was used in the show flap so but you yourself didn't know what was inside that just from from experience it would have been
01:03:07 been um
01:03:12 it would have been okay in the show flat to use it so just a progression would be to carry on using it yeah it would have been checked and signed off i would have thought because the show flat was handed over to tmo
01:03:24 the show flat was handed over to tmo yeah and they were happy with the quality and products yeah did anybody ever raise any concerns about the thoroughness of your inspections on site no not that i'm aware of yeah
01:03:38 now the second stage of the process that you described in paragraph four of your witness statement was about um signing a subcontractors an sd plastering form to say you were happy with the work correct and it met the required standard
01:03:52 correct and it met the required standard what did you consider to be the required standard
01:03:55 standard as per the show flat yeah so you were constantly checking back to the show flat correct yes can we just look at the sd plastering form this is a sdp 50194
01:04:12 sdp 50194 we just blow this up so um is this the form that you were talking about i don't recall it can you recall what kind of information
01:04:24 can you recall what kind of information you would record on the sd plastering form um i have vague recollection that it was a kind of a tick box had this been done had this been done to satisfaction had this been done
01:04:36 satisfaction had this been done um and then once that was signed once i'd signed that and happy with the quality then obviously they would invoice against that amount of work being done yeah
01:04:47 that amount of work being done yeah i just want to show you something that was been said in the ryden company witness statement we've had a witness statement from ryden as a company
01:04:55 company as well as individual statements from former ryden officers if we can look at that this is
01:05:03 ryd3094236 at page 23 and i want to look at paragraph 37
01:05:14 so if i can just read this to you it says here the role of ride and maintenance limited staff site staff would be to coordinate subcontractors and to inspect the works in question
01:05:25 and to inspect the works in question from time to time not to provide detailed supervision of contractors works now just pausing there do you agree with that statement i do apart from the supervision of
01:05:39 i do apart from the supervision of subcontractors works during that particular element of work because we were working in tenants homes i was there more often much more often to make sure
01:05:52 more often much more often to make sure that the
01:05:52 that the tenant was happy and not stressed or the you know work was tidy there was no trip hazards etc etc so from the health and safety side yeah
01:06:03 and then in the second sentence it says any such inspections would be made against the approved drawings and specifications and relevant risk assessment method statement rams
01:06:14 statement rams were reviewed by ryden do you see that there i do yes and again do you agree with that statement yes i do
01:06:24 now was a risk assessment method statement available to you when you were inspecting the works to the interior of each flat i don't recall but i'm sure it would
01:06:35 i don't recall but i'm sure it would have been
01:06:36 have been can we just show you something to see if this prompts a recollection if you look at sdp
01:06:44 50198
01:06:48 you just blow this up now this seems to be the sdp risk assessment and method statement does that um is that document familiar to you it doesn't look familiar
01:07:00 doesn't look familiar i see but that's not i didn't read it four years ago no um what we see in the scope of works box towards the bottom of that page is it says install and make good flow plast soffit
01:07:13 install and make good flow plast soffit and face your board around window reveals
01:07:16 reveals board is to be cut and stuck using adhesive and all gaps made good with mastic
01:07:20 mastic do you see that there yes was that your understanding yes it was yeah and then if we could go on to page three
01:07:27 three there's a box for substances of materials if we could just zoom in on that box there it says flow plastic soffit and facials grip grab
01:07:39 plastic soffit and facials grip grab adhesive
01:07:39 adhesive 735 mastic do you see that there i do do you remember seeing that kind of list during the project yes i do
01:07:49 did you or to your knowledge anyone else at ryden take steps to examine the extent to which the materials or the methodology described in this method statement complied with the requirements of the building
01:08:00 the requirements of the building regulations or other relevant guidance i didn't because as i say it would have been used in the show flat and i would have thought it had been pre-adopted before my arrival
01:08:14 now moving on the third stage you described was that all properties were expected by the tmo clerk of works um now
01:08:24 um now the email that we looked at earlier which you sent to john white and tony batty referred to a sign-off sheet by the clerk of works and i just want to take you to what we think is an example of that
01:08:36 think is an example of that okay we could pull up ryd three zeros 50946
01:08:46 and if we could blow that up so we think this is an example of a clerk of work sign-off sheet for the project this is it's when i devised and it's my
01:08:57 it's when i devised and it's my signature on there yes great so so that's exactly what you're describing in your witness statement is it yes
01:09:03 it yes yeah and can you just explain what this sign-off sheet is checking for um that the work has been carried out and there's no comment suggesting there's any fault with the work that's been carried out
01:09:15 been carried out and was your understanding that the clerk of works would be inspecting uh in relation to the building regulations and any relevant guidance i would have thought so yes because he's
01:09:26 i would have thought so yes because he's accepting the work for the tmo on behalf of tmo was that an assumption you made at the time yes
01:09:38 now we see at the bottom that there's a space there for the kctmo rep do you see that in the middle at the bottom to sign off um and you explained in your
01:09:50 um and you explained in your in the email that was sent to the clerk of works that the form had been designed with a space for the tma to sign after they have satisfied themselves that the work is of a suitable standard
01:10:01 that the work is of a suitable standard now at what point would the tmo inspect and improve the works um they were given the opportunity at every stage um john white the tmo clock works on behalf
01:10:13 john white the tmo clock works on behalf of tmo
01:10:14 of tmo was invited to come and have a look and in most cases accepted and did inspect um but we'd also get the tenant to say they're happy that with the finish
01:10:26 and um in the email you referred to them satisfying themselves that work was of a suitable standard what did you mean by that
01:10:34 that i was put the show flat yeah that it was neat tidy and left left in a good condition did you yourself ever see any contractual documentation which set out what the scope of works was for the clerk of
01:10:45 scope of works was for the clerk of works
01:10:46 works not for the clerk of works no did you understand that the clerk of works would be doing any fire safety checks they did when i was looking after the communal areas
01:10:58 communal areas we went and signed off every single floor with all the risers coming through for the new heating system because it hadn't been done previously and they inspected and signed off every
01:11:09 and they inspected and signed off every single floor yeah and also they inspected um where the pipe work would go through above the door above the front doors into each
01:11:19 into each flat stroke fire compartment yeah that was done inside note and then just for completeness you also explained in your statement there was a fourth stage which was all the inspection reports
01:11:30 inspection reports these ones were collated and recorded on a spreadsheet by you and that's the spreadsheet we looked at it's a famous tracker
01:11:36 tracker yeah great i don't think we need to turn that back unless there's anything else you want to draw our attention to um
01:11:43 um on that yeah i just want to go i know simon um
01:11:47 simon um the project manager simon o'connor mentioned that the form keeping wasn't very good within ryden's in his statement i disagree with that completely i think that tracker indicates that
01:12:00 i think that tracker indicates that every single opportunity was taken and signed off at every level but just to be clear was any part of that tracker for ryden to be confirming that the requirements of the
01:12:11 confirming that the requirements of the building regulations or other guidance had been complied with um it all fed into building control that we had the electrical certificates
01:12:23 that we had the electrical certificates we had water tests for the temperature and all the general forms including this one
01:12:29 one in front of us so it held paid pretty much
01:12:32 much all the paperwork for all the aspects of the work i see but but when you were putting that tracker together i think i asked you this earlier were you ever independently thinking does this comply with the building regulations no
01:12:45 building regulations no [Applause] now on the subject of building control if we can go to paragraph 11 of your witness statement
01:12:55 on page two
01:12:58 you say that um the third sentence i was present for a couple of building control visits
01:13:09 couple of building control visits no issues were raised and the decisions were documented do you see that there yes i do now can you recall when those building control
01:13:19 control officers did visit um uh no knots at this stage no um it would have been just to literally show them around the building because they need to be accompanied
01:13:30 they need to be accompanied at all times can you recall which building control officers you met during those visits no i can't
01:13:40 did any of the visits involve looking inside the flats at for example the work done around the windows i believe it did yes
01:13:51 do you recall whether they actually looked at
01:13:54 looked at the area around the windows before the upvc
01:13:58 upvc coverings the trims were put on i don't recall that um but if they'd have come regularly which i i don't recall how readily they did come but
01:14:09 did come but they would have seen that the windows at that stage because obviously there's 120 flats to do yeah now you state that um the decisions were documented do you see
01:14:21 the decisions were documented do you see that towards the end of paragraph 11 sorry it's not the final sentence the penultimate sentence
01:14:29 sentence and the decisions were documented i just wanted to ask you what do you mean by that what form of documentation was used um there was a report given at the um
01:14:40 um there was a report given at the um project meeting yeah the weekly project meeting
01:14:43 meeting yeah monthly project meeting um with the tmo and anything that was outstanding was raised yes i think we're going to come on to look at a couple of those uh in a moment so at the progress
01:14:55 uh in a moment so at the progress reports
01:14:55 reports meetings you often get a section that explains whether building control have come and what they've looked at yeah is that correct we also bundle that in with any defects that have been reported from
01:15:06 reported from tenants or residents that would completely list out and keep tmo up to date with i see so is that the only place we would find that in those
01:15:15 in those meeting minutes it's the only place i recall ever seeing them whether they was a separate communication between building control and ridings at a higher
01:15:26 building control and ridings at a higher level i don't know yeah i would have thought that would have been because to say i was just showing them around the building so it wasn't a
01:15:33 yeah did building control ever raise with you
01:15:37 with you any issues in relation to the compliance of
01:15:40 of the works with building regulations or other relevant guidance no they didn't did building control ever ask you
01:15:48 ask you what materials were being used around the windows i underneath the upvc
01:15:55 did they ever ask you what materials were used to house the kitchen extract fans
01:16:00 fans no they didn't do they ever raise any concerns regarding compartmentation or fire safety in relation to the window materials or design
01:16:10 design not that i'm aware of no and do you ever recall any discussions with them about the absence of cavity barriers around the windows not that i'm aware of but i would have
01:16:21 not that i'm aware of but i would have thought that i'd been picked up when they were
01:16:23 they were inspecting the outside of the building
01:16:31 now um just looking back to something in the ryden company statement at paragraph 518
01:16:36 518 this is our ryd3094236 at page 195.
01:16:50 so there it said internal window components were installed between the 10th of september 2015 and 12 november 2015. john hoban of rbkc
01:17:02 and 12 november 2015. john hoban of rbkc building control attended to inspect the works on at least three occasions during this period once in october and twice in november and then it says ryden is not aware of any adverse comments that were made in
01:17:13 any adverse comments that were made in relation to the internal window installation works or the windows surrounds on either of these location occasions do you see that there now do you agree with what's said there
01:17:25 you agree with what's said there i do um that report wouldn't have come to me anyway so i wouldn't have had visibility had there been a problem and do you have a recollection
01:17:37 and do you have a recollection of building control actually inspecting the internal window surrounds during that period i have recollection of taking them around but not what they actually
01:17:47 actually were looking at at the time they had free reign to look whatever they wanted i just want to take you to two of those progress report meeting minutes that you were referring to before
01:17:59 to before so um if we can go to ryd three zeros five four
01:18:03 five four eight seven nine
01:18:10 so this is the report number 16 for progress between we see at the bottom of the page 12th of september 15 and 16th of october 15.
01:18:23 and if we could go to page 10 section 8.
01:18:30 so there it says one visit in period paul hansen fire us fire officer discussions about aov
01:18:37 aov secondary supply and lobby riser cupboard design do you see that there i do so there's nothing about the inspection of the windows is there no
01:18:49 this would have been a meeting with dave hughes because he was looking after the aovs
01:18:54 aovs yeah and the riser cupboard design most of the cupboards were already built well they were already built prior to my joining project and then we have
01:19:04 have um if we go to just one more of these progress report it's at ryd3057782
01:19:20 and this is for the the period that follows this for the 17th of november sorry 17th of october 15 to the 13th of november
01:19:29 november 15. and if we could go to page 11 and look at section 8 again
01:19:40 so there it says to visit in period john hoban has visited twice in period to look at cladding generally happy with works except for minor quality issues with mastic
01:19:52 minor quality issues with mastic and making good do you see that there now looking at that now it refers to visited twice to look at cladding
01:20:00 cladding do you think that john hoban looked at the windows and the inter internal windows during that period he may have inspected the intern or the
01:20:11 he may have inspected the intern or the gap
01:20:11 gap um from the ex-site outside but i believe
01:20:15 believe that would have been from the um from the exterior yeah
01:20:23 so these two um progress reports don't suggest do they that there was an inspection of the windows they don't know [Applause]
01:20:34 [Applause] mr chairman um i am nearly at the end of my questions but i have um three very short topics to go i'm happy to break now how long do you
01:20:45 i'm happy to break now how long do you think you might uh need to cover i think it will take uh 10 minutes so it may we could break now but we will have to have another break to sweep up the final question i was wondering whether we could conflate the
01:20:57 wondering whether we could conflate the two breaks but that might be a bit ambitious might it yeah i mean it depends whether people are happy to go on
01:21:02 on well you probably like have a break at this stage wouldn't you i'm okay yes and i'm sure the shorthand writer wouldn't be too polite all right we'll take a short break now then while you're out of the room please
01:21:14 then while you're out of the room please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything else to do with the refurbishment okay and we'll resume 25 to 12 please thank you i'd like to give the usher she'll look after you
01:21:35 25 to 12.
01:35:49 yes would you ask mr martin to come back
01:35:54 please thank you
01:36:10 thank you right mr martin ready to carry on yes indeed
01:36:13 indeed yes from scratch thank you yes just a few follow-up questions from your evidence this morning and then i'll i'll carry on
01:36:19 carry on with my remaining topics i asked you about cavity barriers around the windows and i asked you a question i said just to be clear it was no no
01:36:31 i said just to be clear it was no no part of your check to check whether there were any cavity barriers around the windows was it and you said this there was nothing on the drawings i did check and i made i asked the question as well
01:36:42 and i made i asked the question as well and again i'm not sure who i asked but i was satisfied that they didn't need to be put in place now i asked you a few more questions about that but but the question i want to ask you now is what was it that prompted you
01:36:55 now is what was it that prompted you to ask about cavity barriers around the windows particularly given you said you hadn't ever seen cavity barriers around the windows on other projects um just because it was a bit odd to see a gap um
01:37:07 because it was a bit odd to see a gap um purely inquisition being inquisitive really yeah did you know that there was a thing called a cavity barrier around a window no i didn't no so what would have been the question
01:37:19 no so what would have been the question that you
01:37:20 that you asked when you asked i i don't recall just that um from a fire thinking about the compartmental element of the actual flat that there needed to be something
01:37:31 needed to be something there and i was assured that it was between floors and on the verticals yeah so that that then satisfied my instinct that there was a barrier yeah the compartment was extended to the
01:37:43 yeah the compartment was extended to the cladding
01:37:44 cladding yeah thank you just back to the questions ask you about building control can we just be clear what did you understand your role to be when building control visited as a
01:37:55 when building control visited as a chaperone only on-site right
01:38:00 now we looked at the materials around the window and you you accepted that you didn't know that it was a celetex product or a kingspan product
01:38:08 product used around the windows was not knowing what materials were being used normal in relation to ryden projects probably not but as i took over halfway
01:38:20 probably not but as i took over halfway through the project it was already being used
01:38:23 used i wouldn't have then investigated any further i see yeah i'm sure during the the prep phase rydens would have done it because they were very
01:38:33 were very very um detailed with their research now had you wanted to to check whether or not those materials should have been used who would it have been within ryden that you would have asked
01:38:44 have asked um probably zach maynard and why would you have asked him because he specified the um mater i i guess he would have had a big input on
01:38:55 input on choosing what products and was used what gave you the impression that that was zach maynard's role um just because i'd gone to him for information in the past and he was very helpful so he would be my first
01:39:06 helpful so he would be my first port of call for something like that i see yeah
01:39:10 see yeah now and i want to ask you some questions about um
01:39:13 about um health and safety information the health and safety file um were you aware that it was ryden's duties
01:39:21 duties under regulation 38 of the building regulations to provide relevant fire safety information to the tmo on completion of the works i was aware yes
01:39:31 yes what role did if any did you play in relation to that um very little um other than the fire stopping side of things
01:39:42 stopping side of things on the communal areas and into the fire compartments of the the flats um and from the tracker um which um i think it's neil reed from artelia
01:39:55 um i think it's neil reed from artelia um commented on that was coming together nicely he was actually helping add columns to it they wanted to know so they could put the health and safety file together i see can you remember when you had those discussions with mr reed it would
01:40:06 those discussions with mr reed it would have been at one of the um weekly meetings project meeting do you think in 2015 or 2016. i don't recall no now we know that all group holdings was subcontracted by ryden to prepare
01:40:18 was subcontracted by ryden to prepare the building manual and help with the health and safety file for the project do you know whether it was intended that the building manual would include the relevant fire safety
01:40:29 would include the relevant fire safety information required by regulation 38 of the building regulations i presume so i don't know as i say i'd left the project um prior to all that information going to the third party that we brought
01:40:40 going to the third party that we brought in to write the m manual so were you involved at all in supplying
01:40:45 supplying all group holdings with any information to include in the building manual and the health and safety file um yes all the information on the tracker
01:40:54 tracker was backed up with all the certificates and documents that were scanned and folded and on the rms writing system and and how did you understand what kind of documents all
01:41:06 understand what kind of documents all group holdings might need in order to prepare the health and safety file they would get in touch with me and ask me what type of documents and also i kept everything
01:41:17 and also i kept everything so those those exchanges with all group holdings were they on the telephone were they by e they would have been by telephone yes so what they called you and said we need xyz if they'd have wanted anything they would have done that yes i don't recall
01:41:29 would have done that yes i don't recall instances
01:41:30 instances you don't recall instances no
01:41:33 and did how did you know what information you ought to be getting ready for the health and safety file um i've had um
01:41:44 experience in the past of doing similar jobs
01:41:48 jobs yeah that and i basically collected everything so i got to sign off at every single level um because i knew it would feed into that file
01:41:56 that file yeah now if we can just look at an email that you sent if we go to
01:42:04 ryd3071352 on page three
01:42:13 there we go we can see at the top of that page that on the 26th of february 2016
01:42:17 2016 you emailed sonya and gayley of all group holdings and you say hi sonia following out conversation earlier please found attached the project document tracker with the
01:42:29 the project document tracker with the files we have collated to date do you see that there i do and then if we go to that tracker this is
01:42:40 ryd3069121
01:42:45 if we can look at the native version i think we may be and looking at the same document we looked at earlier
01:42:56 at earlier yes there we go so that's the project tracker we looked at earlier yes correct yep um now why did you think the information in this tracker would help them compile the
01:43:07 this tracker would help them compile the health and safety file um i was just aware that they wanted all the information that we had available isn't this primarily a project
01:43:18 available isn't this primarily a project planning
01:43:19 planning spreadsheet for ryden to keep track of what works were complete how how would this feed into the health and safety first it started it started off as that um and then neil reed from artelia
01:43:31 um and then neil reed from artelia started adding bits that they wanted um and other bits that were other people wanted so it became slightly more yeah and then obviously we sent all information over to to do
01:43:43 we sent all information over to to do the o manual i see now one of the inquiries experts dr lane
01:43:49 dr lane has said that the only document in this tracker that's relevant to the health and safety file is the asbestos report which we can see at column y do you see there at the top in that red
01:44:01 do you see there at the top in that red section
01:44:02 section it says rml asbestos do you see that there um
01:44:07 there um i don't so just to the left of the vertical black columns that's a bit better oh okay yep yep see there
01:44:15 there so there's a a column for asbestos reports um and that's been completed and and dr lane said that would have been relevant to the health and safety
01:44:27 been relevant to the health and safety file but only that was that your understanding or did you i wasn't aware of the health and safety file what
01:44:32 file what exact documents it required because i've never written one you'd never been involved in one before no
01:44:39 no this was all supplementary documentation um
01:44:42 um to help with the o m and then feed into what was required to feed into it there were several pages there's um fire stopping
01:44:49 stopping um deliverables um and also for the um mechanical and engineering and electrical works as well yeah now before you send it over did you check
01:45:01 before you send it over did you check that all the information contained in that for example that column y was accurate
01:45:07 accurate i believe so yes if we can just look at an example if you go to row 87 which is the row for flat 91 if we can look down
01:45:20 there we go so that's row 787 there do you see in column y on the far right hand side
01:45:28 hand side it says n a is that not applicable for asbestos report correct um but we think we may have found an asbestos report for that flat
01:45:39 found an asbestos report for that flat flat 91
01:45:41 flat 91 if you go to can we look at max max6049
01:45:54 so there we see this is what we think is an asbestos report for 91 grenfell tower do you see that there i do so can you help as to why the spreadsheet might not have
01:46:05 spreadsheet might not have recorded that in it i wouldn't have been aware of it that's the only reason it wouldn't have been on there i see so someone didn't pass you this asbestos report is that what you're saying yes and whose responsibility would it have been to do
01:46:16 responsibility would it have been to do that
01:46:17 that i don't know if
01:46:21 because it was a fluid document um and built up over a long period of time it's overlapped sort of two project managers and senior site managers so there's a
01:46:32 managers so there's a raft so it should have been brought to my attention while i was putting it together
01:46:35 together yeah but i don't remember it having been so yeah
01:46:39 so yeah i understand can we look at an email chain
01:46:42 chain now this is ryd3072822
01:46:55 so this is an email chain between david hughes
01:47:00 hughes of ryden and steve butler of all group holdings do you see that there i do and it said that um actually i'm looking at the second email
01:47:11 actually i'm looking at the second email down
01:47:12 down david hughes to steve buckley first of april 2016. and he says hi steve how are you getting on with the health and safety file owner manual
01:47:22 manual um and then in the third little paragraph he says i feel it would be worthwhile for you to visit site for a quick meeting do you see that there do you remember attending that meeting
01:47:34 attending that meeting i don't know so you can't help us as to what was discussed i can't know i believe i was but i do not remember the contents of the meeting itself
01:47:48 um and you'll see in the second paragraph
01:47:52 paragraph um it says i neglected to say that we have a number of folders on the site that gary martin started to compile these contain the majority of certificates and sign off sheets for the occupied units do you see that there
01:48:03 occupied units do you see that there i do they would have been the hard copies of
01:48:06 copies of all the way of putting it soft copies that were then attached to the spreadsheet i see so all the sign off sheets that lead into that tracker spreadsheet uh is what's being referred to yeah the
01:48:17 uh is what's being referred to yeah the ruling hardcover is in separate folders and where are all group holdings actually provided with those folders of information they were provided with the soft copies so i think yeah there would have been a dropbox set up and they had them all available
01:48:30 up and they had them all available did you take any further steps to ensure that relevant fire safety information was properly collated and passed on to all group holdings only the information that i was given at
01:48:41 only the information that i was given at the time
01:48:43 the time so if i was if i was passed any information it would have been on that document
01:48:46 document it would have been on the tracker and then going forward i see do you know who else within ryden was responsible for providing
01:48:52 providing all group holdings with documents relevant to the compilation of that file um ultimately on site it would have been dave hughes i guess um i know he had several meetings
01:49:04 um i know he had several meetings um regarding
01:49:07 the documents and bits and pieces and fire strategy but as to exactly what i don't know yeah did you ever take any steps yourself to ensure that the building manual was
01:49:18 ensure that the building manual was completed and passed on to the tmo no i left the project before that happened yeah did you check the building manual yourself to see if it was complete and accurate
01:49:29 accurate up to the stage when i left the project yes it was i see did you check the health and safety file to see if that was complete and accurate no that was after my time yeah
01:49:40 no that was after my time yeah i was under the impression that um the tmo was putting that together we were just doing the o m yeah so you wouldn't have done any further checks on the health and safety file
01:49:49 file okay just another uh topic which was about management and the presence of management on the site can we just go to some meeting minutes from the 21st of august
01:50:01 meeting minutes from the 21st of august 2015.
01:50:02 2015. this is at ryd3049916
01:50:14 now um this was a meeting held on the 21st of january it was a subcontractor progress meeting minutes and it says windows do you see that there i do
01:50:25 that there i do and we can see that you're present and at the bottom of that list it says that you chaired the meeting and you took the minute
01:50:31 minute yes and we can see that simon lawrence is under the apologies section do you see that there
01:50:40 now can you recall whether simon lawrence had been expected to attend that subcontractor progress meeting normally i would expect him to yeah did you deputise for him when you were chairing this
01:50:51 chairing this meeting no um these meetings were my own um
01:50:59 way of keeping in touch with the subcontractors exactly what they were doing
01:51:03 doing so everything works in a timely fashion when you were attending subcontractor meetings like this did you expect a senior member of ryden to be there such as simon lawrence or
01:51:14 as simon lawrence or or mr blake no not necessarily
01:51:22 and why was that it's always nice when they could but um it was really for me to go through any outstanding points that i had with the subcontractors work to make sure the standards were
01:51:33 to make sure the standards were maintained and it complied with drawings and expectations yeah would the minutes of these meetings have gone to simon lawrence routinely yeah now just looking at item 5.02
01:51:47 yeah now just looking at item 5.02 on page two
01:51:52 there's a reference here that mr lawrence was asked about um it says now that we're getting towards the end of the program we will need to make more and more appointments with tenants
01:52:01 tenants we need to increase our levels of courtesy to allow this to happen smoothly do you see that there i do can you recall what was meant by that last sentence about courtesy needing to be increased
01:52:13 courtesy needing to be increased um i don't recall how in what context that was
01:52:16 that was um said like that so you can't recall who said that at the meeting no had there been any problems so far as you were aware with levels of courtesy up to that time
01:52:27 up to that time far from it um linda the rlo and christina the rlo were excellent with the tenants at all times i can't fault them at all the best i've ever worked with um myself
01:52:39 the best i've ever worked with um myself and
01:52:40 and chris holt was also we would accompany them to every visit um obviously loan workers everything else we would be with them um to explain processes and everything else so
01:52:51 else so um were you ever aware of any problems with
01:52:56 with workmen and the residents on site no i wasn't um we would keep them in sort of tight control with because when they were cutting the boards for
01:53:08 when they were cutting the boards for the windowsills they only had the communal area outside four flats per per floor to to work therefore they had to be kept in
01:53:20 to work therefore they had to be kept in tight control as they'd spread out and cause trip hazards and and other bits and pieces so were you ever aware of any problems with workmen being rude to residents there may have been instances but they
01:53:32 there may have been instances but they would have been dealt with quite severely at the time i don't recall in individual instances okay did you discuss this minute with anyone after the meeting not that i'm aware of so you don't
01:53:43 not that i'm aware of so you don't recall discussing it with simon lawrence no last topic floor numbering yes can i just take you to
01:53:51 to a document ryd three zeros five nine nine
01:53:55 nine eight nine
01:53:59 and i want to go to the second email down in the chain on page one so this is from you to claire williams on the 2nd of december 2015 and you say hi claire new floor
01:54:11 2015 and you say hi claire new floor numbers have been put up on the riser doors on each floor complete with individual flat numbers and a directional arrow to show which direction they are in on it exiting the lifts
01:54:22 are in on it exiting the lifts and then you save also to a master sheet up in the lobby of the second floor also the now incorrect floor numbers in the stairwell have been obliterated and
01:54:33 the stairwell have been obliterated and i will put some temps up in there also do you see that there i do
01:54:38 do now can you help us as to what precisely you did in relation to the nor the floor numbering before you left the project yes um the old floor plans
01:54:51 um the old floor plans had changed completely because we added four floors at the bottom yeah so everything was bumped up four floors um so new signage was created firstly temporary signage to to
01:55:02 created firstly temporary signage to to clarify it had to be a problem then it was very clear exactly where the flats were and where exits were um on the stairwells there was a stenciled number on each floor
01:55:13 stenciled number on each floor and that was over stenciled with the new correct number so was that done with paint and stencil it was yeah yeah originally it was going to be done as a temporary sign but it was stenciled over as a finished
01:55:24 but it was stenciled over as a finished project
01:55:24 project and you oversaw that work did you do it before you left yeah
01:55:30 and the the other one on the second floor is referring to um an overview of what flats are on what floor now
01:55:38 floor now for guidance when you're first entering the building and when you left the site was it your understanding that there was clear floor numbering on the stairs yes the new signs had been printed
01:55:49 yes the new signs had been printed and had been put up and how big were these floor numbers that you put on um there was a lot of debate and conversation went into it because
01:56:00 conversation went into it because originally the tmo wanted braille as well
01:56:03 well so from those conversations i know they they met
01:56:06 they met all the criteria that the tmo put down and industry standards but approximately can you remember what size were they no i can't give you dimensions but they're quite big okay
01:56:17 they're quite big okay they were very very clear and then finally in terms of my questions we know you left the project on the 18th of march 2016. do you know why you were withdrawn from
01:56:28 do you know why you were withdrawn from the project at this time um the project was winding down so there wasn't that much work we've done most of the internals the paintwork and
01:56:39 paintwork and boxing of all the pipe work for the hiu's had been put in place and all signed off all the window work had been completed and the communals had been finished so there wasn't a lot left to do so as a
01:56:52 there wasn't a lot left to do so as a skeleton staff of jason and dave hughes and steve lake completed the final bits of project great thank you mr tim and those are all my questions right thank you so
01:57:04 right thank you so if we could perhaps have i'd suggest a 10 minute break well i was going to suggest 10 past 12 would that be sensitive
01:57:09 sensitive yep that's fine um mr martin although uh miss granger thinks she's reached the end of the questions we need to have a short break to take stock and so on okay
01:57:20 stock and so on okay so we'll stop now until 10 past 12. and then
01:57:24 then i'll ask you to come back and see whether there are any more questions that we need to put to you of course so please no talking to anyone about your evidence if you go with the usher please thank
01:57:36 you
01:57:42 all right temples
02:10:20 yes would you ask mr martin to come back
02:10:26 please
02:10:36 right mr martin we'll see if there are more questions for you ms grange yes just a few um just on the numbers on that we were just discussing the numbering of the flaws can we just be clear when when you
02:10:47 can we just be clear when when you talked about painting in the numbers with stencils are you talking about painting them in on the lobbies or on the stem the lobbies um in which i could refer to the communal areas yeah had
02:10:59 areas yeah had uh machine made signs the stairwell each floor had a stenciled number and all we did was paint over the stencil number and re-stencil um and now the new numbers to that so
02:11:11 um and now the new numbers to that so you painted over the old number yeah and you re-stenciled on the stair
02:11:17 the stair on the stairs yeah so we just left it light for light with the new numbering system
02:11:21 system because um the stairwells or the stairwell
02:11:25 stairwell it wasn't down to be refurbed in any way yeah and you can't help us as to how big that stenciling was on the just that we had a lot of communication with the sign makers and it fitted
02:11:38 the sign makers and it fitted specifications yeah and do you know were any numbers in the stairwell obscured when you left site by the the lighting or the temporary lighting in the stairs no they won the
02:11:50 in the stairs no they won the stair head on the half landings yeah and the lighting was on the stairwell itself on the stairs yeah now earlier when i was asking about materials you said that you might have asked
02:12:01 asked zach maynard for help about what materials were supposed to be used he was the commercial manager on the project yes he would have priced um individual materials i see so
02:12:12 priced um individual materials i see so that's why you would have asked him yeah he was the first go-to person because he was a very helpful sort of chap yeah yeah um and i just want to clarify that that no one ever told you
02:12:23 one ever told you on the project to read the nbs specification i don't recall that no
02:12:30 now were you aware during your time on the project that some complaints had been raised by residents about the windows in general there were complaints about the windows but that was mainly
02:12:41 but that was mainly operating errors and obviously when the windows were first put in because they were
02:12:46 were sort of slowed down because they were tilt and open there were problems with adjustments which you will get with new windows so yes there were complaints but they were dealt with and i have to say very
02:12:57 were dealt with and i have to say very well by tough if it was down to new handles or new hinges or adjustment of hinges he would pretty much be there straight away if he wasn't on the mass climber somewhere
02:13:07 somewhere okay did any of those complaints ever cause you to have concerns about the general quality of the work by sdp no none okay the only um issues with their work were
02:13:20 um issues with their work were um there were four or five flats that complained about drafts coming out from underneath the pvc panels that's the sill itself and that was because the show flat also
02:13:31 and that was because the show flat also echoed the fact there was no silicon bead put along there and that was rectified by going back and putting a silicone bead along and that that solved the issue yeah that's helpful thank you mr chairman those are all of the questions
02:13:42 those are all of the questions right thank you very much wellness martin those are all the questions we have for you thank you very much indeed for coming here today to give us your evidence it's been really useful to hear from you and we're very grateful and now you're
02:13:54 and we're very grateful and now you're free to go thank you very much thank you if you'd like to go with the usher she'll look after you
02:14:07 good thank you miss granger at this stage we need to have a short break so that
02:14:10 that uh we need to do a little bit of cleaning can be cleaned up properly exactly i think that's going to take between five and ten minutes well if i say 25 past will that be safe that's fine apparently yep yes all
02:14:22 safe that's fine apparently yep yes all right 25
02:14:23 right 25 12 please thank you
02:25:17 yes miss grange no we have another witness now we have mr daniel osgood please right thank you
02:25:32 [Applause]
02:25:40 i do solemnly uh sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth
02:25:48 the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr osgood do sit down make yourself comfortable thank you
02:26:00 right yes we're strange yes thank you mr osgood thank you very much for coming to give evidence to us today it's really appreciated um if you have any difficulty understanding anything i say during my questions
02:26:11 anything i say during my questions please ask me either to repeat the question
02:26:14 question or put it in a different way and if you feel you need a break at any point please just let us know and if you can also try and keep your voice up because the lady to your right is transcribing so that she can clear clearly what
02:26:26 so that she can clear clearly what you're saying and also try not to speak too fast okay which is something i have difficulty with most of the time um you've made one statement to the inquiry
02:26:37 statement to the inquiry it's dated the 28th of september 2018 if we can go to that it's ryd three zeros nine four two one two and there's a copy
02:26:48 four two one two and there's a copy in a folder on your desk and it's also now on the screen
02:26:54 and if we can look at i think at the bottom of both pages but at the bottom of page two the second page is that your signature it is yes
02:27:02 it is yes and have you read the statement recently i have and are the contents true they are thank you now i want to start with some questions about your background and experience so if we can go back and
02:27:13 and experience so if we can go back and look at paragraph two of your statement you tell us there that you have
02:27:19 you have over 30 years experience in the construction trade you were initially a labourer and then you became an industrial glazing installer
02:27:29 installer and then you've also worked in site management for just over 10 years we see that there yes that's correct and then paragraph three you tell us you joined ryden on the 3rd of march 2014
02:27:40 joined ryden on the 3rd of march 2014 and you left on the 14th of april 2017. we see that there yes yeah and um in paragraph four i just want to
02:27:51 and um in paragraph four i just want to ask you about that before asking about grenfell you say in the third line i previously worked for a company that fitted cladding and glazing between 2001 and 2005.
02:28:03 between 2001 and 2005. that's correct and and you talk about using that experience uh on the grenfell project can i just ask you about that that previous experience what was the name of that company that you worked for previously
02:28:14 previously um it was whole cloud it was the name of the company yeah and uh what type of cladding systems did you install or oversee um
02:28:29 or oversee um we did a lot of work all over the country
02:28:32 country in scotland wells island i've done the limerick hotel in ireland which was uh clad with a five meter
02:28:44 which was uh clad with a five meter panel aluminium and we used rockwool as insulation right yeah um had you included cladding made of for example aluminium composite material
02:28:56 example aluminium composite material before um no no not from memory no no
02:29:04 and have you had you ever had experience of cladding systems using pir insulation poly isocyanurate insulation no no but i had seen it being used
02:29:17 no no but i had seen it being used on other sites not my site and what about experience of fitting cavity barriers to cladding systems had you had any experience of that yeah
02:29:28 experience of that yeah um i've fitted it myself i'm the next fixer
02:29:33 fixer and i've i've fitted it in the past yeah had you ever worked on high-rise uh buildings above 18 meters um i worked on the ibis hotel um
02:29:46 um i worked on the ibis hotel um in wembley and that was 22 floors yeah and was that an over cladding project it was yes yeah and were cavity barriers fitted there yes they were yeah
02:29:57 yes they were yeah were they fitted around the windows in that project um no in that project the uh original the the windows went back in the original opening
02:30:09 the original opening um so um
02:30:12 um so um the cladding would have married into the the frame yeah yeah thank you before leaving that company in 2005 and starting work on the grenfell
02:30:24 2005 and starting work on the grenfell project
02:30:25 project did you carry out any cladding work during that period so between 2005 and um
02:30:33 2015. i think now um i did uh yeah no not particularly no no
02:30:45 yeah no not particularly no no yeah now in your statement of paragraph three
02:30:50 three you um explain that after joining ryden you say you initially joined as holiday cover and you were a temporary site manager for the first year and you say you were involved in a project which
02:31:01 you were involved in a project which included
02:31:02 included demolishment of an entire estate in brixton
02:31:05 brixton and the development of derelict properties for temporary housing residents
02:31:09 residents that's correct we see that there now did the that project involve any installation of any over cladding no they were street
02:31:20 over cladding no they were street properties so there was it was mainly internal works
02:31:24 works yeah and during your time at ryden and prior to starting on the grenfell project had you ever had any training in the inspection of cladding works
02:31:36 in the inspection of cladding works um no had you had any other training which might have been relevant to carrying out inspections of cladding work
02:31:45 work um i believe that the experience of fitting it um helped
02:31:52 where i learned to read drawings and check
02:31:55 check certain things on my checks yeah had you ever had any training in the requirements of the building regulations no did you consider yourself competent
02:32:08 no did you consider yourself competent to be
02:32:08 to be inspecting cladding works at grenfell tower
02:32:12 tower um i did um having fitted it for quite a number of years um i knew what to look for i knew thoughts that could come up
02:32:23 i knew thoughts that could come up yeah um now we know that ryden entered into
02:32:27 into in the end a jct design and build contract
02:32:31 contract were you ever made aware of any um key obligations that ryden had in that contract um no so were you aware that ryden had a
02:32:42 um no so were you aware that ryden had a duty to complete the works in a proper and workmanlike manner and in accordance with good building practice oh absolutely i've been on sms ts training um so i was i was aware that
02:32:54 training um so i was i was aware that there was
02:32:55 there was uh the client there was the designer and then there was ryden soon yeah the sms ts training you referred to what kind of training was that it's a site management training scheme
02:33:06 it's a site management training scheme yeah and that takes you through uh the different responsibilities of each party yeah and but it's it's not thorough um it's only a five-day course right it's not in-depth and when did you
02:33:19 right it's not in-depth and when did you undertake that training course um i've actually been on it twice i believe
02:33:24 believe yeah can you remember when was it before the grenfell project um i've got it in my cv it was yes so both times you've been on it before the grenfell project
02:33:35 the grenfell project and yes yeah and was any part of that training did it look at the requirements of the building regulations uh it wasn't in depth um
02:33:46 uh it wasn't in depth um so it was it brushed over it it didn't go into detail right were you aware on the grenfell project that ryden had to complete the works in accordance
02:33:57 had to complete the works in accordance with relevant statutory requirements including the building regulations broadly yes when you say broadly what do you mean as again i don't know the exact details
02:34:08 the exact details i was aware that they were there but i didn't i don't have uh knowledge of exactly what they are yeah
02:34:15 yeah now in terms of your role on the grenfell project is it right that you were a site manager from the 27th of april 2015 to the 24th of july 2015. that's correct and who did you
02:34:27 2015. that's correct and who did you report to
02:34:28 report to on the project during that time uh grenfell
02:34:33 grenfell sorry the grenfell on the grenfell project who did you report to simon lawrence and simon o'connor and who who was in fact
02:34:44 simon o'connor and who who was in fact your line manager did you know who you're like he would have been the first person to go to
02:34:50 go to [Applause] can you just describe for us in in general terms what your role as site manager
02:34:57 manager involved okay so
02:35:04 from arriving on site it was already up and running obviously so the first thing you do is you um look at the safety of the site um
02:35:17 look at the safety of the site um the surrounding areas for not only the workforce but the public yeah and in particularly the tent the tenants and because they're going in and out of the building so um it's an extremely delicate situation
02:35:31 um it's an extremely delicate situation and so the first thing you want to do is make sure it's safe yeah the second thing you're going to look at is how we're getting access to the works yeah the mask climbers scaffold i'm trained in scaffold uh inspection
02:35:45 and then it's getting the drawings and it's sitting down with the contractor um we had a full set of drawings obviously um both on the m drive
02:35:57 both on the m drive and also we had hard copies in in sight also um harley had a complete set of drawings as well right so we basically sat down went through it looked at what we were doing and how we
02:36:09 looked at what we were doing and how we were going to do it great okay yeah we'll come and do course to a little bit more about what documents you saw during this process did you have a written job description as site manager
02:36:22 written job description as site manager um no but i i was i've been in the industry a while so i do have an understanding of the responsibility were you taking over from a particular
02:36:33 were you taking over from a particular person within ryden when you came in and if so who was that um i don't think i was
02:36:40 i was particularly taking over and jason north was the
02:36:44 was the other site manager there yeah it's a very busy site lots of work going on um and i think ryden rightly so realized that you know it needed more supervision and so that's
02:36:57 it needed more supervision and so that's that was my role basically so was it expressly said to you we need some more supervision on this site that's why we're bringing you in i got a phone call from uh simon lawrence and he said
02:37:08 lawrence and he said uh you know um can you get over to grantville um it's underway uh they're starting the clouding um and can you oversee it yeah
02:37:19 um and can you oversee it yeah and do you think you were assigned to the project because of your knowledge and previous experience of cladding uh i believe so yeah was that that was something that simon lawrence was aware
02:37:30 something that simon lawrence was aware of was he
02:37:31 of was he i don't know that but they do have a copy of my cv and everything is in this yeah yeah i would assume so and is it right that your role
02:37:42 that your role was to oversee the installation of the cladding to the exterior of the building that's correct yes and is it right that you were also involved with overseeing the installation of the window trims to the show flat
02:37:53 show flat that's correct now you state a paragraph eight of your witness statement in the very final line if we can just look at that
02:38:03 that that you say i was not involved with any sign-offs
02:38:07 sign-offs on any internal works and i just want to check what that means does that mean you weren't involved with any of the internal works at all or just you weren't involved in the sign off of those
02:38:18 off of those uh i wasn't really involved in any of the internal works um so i we got down to a point on the building with the cladding and it then had to stop because they
02:38:30 and it then had to stop because they were still working on the structure of the the gym um and and the nursery
02:38:36 nursery so as we sort of stopped works on those um i was asked to have a look at the trims which was the finishing around the windows i see so
02:38:48 finishing around the windows i see so we'll come back to this but i just wanted to to be absolutely clear which bits you were involved in because i think we might see that you had a little bit of involvement in relation to some of the internal window trims is that right
02:38:59 trims is that right yes that's correct yeah now you say at paragraph nine um in the third line you say my role was to ensure that the work
02:39:10 to ensure that the work was completed is the what you've said there
02:39:14 there now i just want to look at something simon lawrence has said in his statement if we can go to ryd three zeros 94220 at page eight and we
02:39:26 at page eight and we look at paragraph 44
02:39:33 so he says there my role included regular visits to site this is him describing his role and support the site delivery team project manager site managers etc then he says this the site delivery team
02:39:45 then he says this the site delivery team is based
02:39:47 is based on site and ensures the day-to-day works are managed safely and correctly to the design do you see that there i do and i think you've just described a little bit about managing the work
02:39:58 little bit about managing the work safely when you gave a description of your role
02:40:01 your role but i wanted to ask you about the correctly to the design can you explain was that your understanding that you had to uh ensure that the works were managed
02:40:13 uh ensure that the works were managed correctly to the design um yes i mean like i mentioned we'd sit down with drawings um we had a specification
02:40:25 specification set of drawings um and basically from that
02:40:29 that you could check everything that was going on um yeah and was that specification the nbs specification that had formed part of the employer's requirements uh no i don't recall
02:40:42 uh no i don't recall can you remember what kind of specification it was that you looked at yeah it was the the on the m drive um there was uh uh there was a spec um and a full set of
02:40:53 uh there was a spec um and a full set of drawings
02:40:53 drawings so i'd run through it with harley um but you know the the works were underway so i didn't go into depth was it a harley spec that
02:41:04 go into depth was it a harley spec that was perhaps one sheet or was it a much much no it was a more detailed spec sorry i missed that sorry it was a multiple page it was a lot of a lot to it yeah hundreds of pages yes
02:41:17 a lot to it yeah hundreds of pages yes i see and did that also was your understanding that you were managing the work um correctly in accordance with the
02:41:28 um correctly in accordance with the building regulations was that part of your role
02:41:31 your role uh yes i mean as a what we did was after a section of works for example we worked down the building and from
02:41:42 we worked down the building and from memory we did two floors at a time and before we hung the panels we'd get building control out and we literally would walk each elevation and
02:41:56 walk each elevation and inspect it inch by inch and when you say building control are you meaning the building control offices from rbkc from kensington and chelsea or are you meaning the clerk of works
02:42:08 meaning the clerk of works on the project um
02:42:16 sorry from memory i believe it was the clerk of works right um but i'm i'm 99 certain that we got building control
02:42:27 99 certain that we got building control up because without building control sign off we yeah we can't do anything yeah it was just we're going to come back to this later but just you saying that you did two floors and then you'd get building
02:42:39 two floors and then you'd get building control out yes and i wanted to pick you up on whether you meant building control there or whether you mean the clerk of works for each two-floor segment
02:42:49 that's a very good question uh from memory
02:42:55 memory um i believe it was the clerk of works six years ago no that's helpful thank you
02:43:02 you would you accept that your role was not merely to assume that everything was compliant with the building regulations and that you did have a role yourself in in making sure the building regulations were complied with
02:43:14 were complied with um i have no training in you know checking anything to see if it complies
02:43:21 complies um so no
02:43:24 um so no okay just picking up and your witness statement on this point that paragraph nine of your statement if we can go to that page two
02:43:35 that page two um
02:43:38 i asked you about the third line where you say my role was to ensure the work was completed and then you go on you say i was not involved in any testing requirements i assume that everything was compliant with the standards
02:43:50 was compliant with the standards otherwise it would not have been signed off by the clerk of works or building control i have no direct knowledge of this however do you see that there i do
02:44:02 so just to be clear you didn't think it was part of your role to be ensuring that the works were compliant with relevant standards including the building regulations
02:44:14 building regulations as i say i don't have the relevant training to do so
02:44:19 and did you assume that the design you were being presented with in the drawings
02:44:23 drawings and the specification was compliant already
02:44:26 already absolutely 100 um i had no i wouldn't even have dreamt that you know anything was going on the building that wasn't 100
02:44:37 building that wasn't 100 safe yeah now we touched on your knowledge of the building regulations i just want to ask you a little bit more about that did you have a kind of working
02:44:48 did you have a kind of working understanding of the basic requirements of the building regulations at the time of the project [Music]
02:44:55 [Music] um vaguely again not in depth did you know that the building regulations set out functional requirements that have to be achieved
02:45:06 requirements that have to be achieved kind of you know i can give you an example
02:45:09 example for example that the external walls shall adequately resist the spread of fire
02:45:13 fire over the walls were you aware of that at the time
02:45:17 the time um i was
02:45:20 um i was vaguely aware of it i i you know again um i hadn't done any sort of in-depth training
02:45:27 training yeah what about unseen fire spread were you aware
02:45:31 you aware that the building regulations might require that uh the buildings should be designed so that the unseen spread of fire and smoke in concealed spaces is inhibited no
02:45:46 [Applause] had you heard of the approved documents which are practical guidance which are issued to help with understanding the requirements of the building regulations i've heard of them
02:45:58 building regulations i've heard of them but uh i couldn't tell you what's in it so if i'd asked you had you looked at approved document b on fire safety prior to the grenfell project
02:46:08 project what would your answer be um i'd say that i hadn't seen it
02:46:17 were you aware in general terms that buildings above 18 meters required special consideration in terms of the external materials which could safely be used on a building
02:46:29 could safely be used on a building um no but
02:46:34 um no but in my mind anything going on any building
02:46:38 building of any height should be a hundred percent
02:46:42 percent safe um and i'm quite you know i don't understand what that is had you ever heard of the phrase limited combustibility
02:46:53 combustibility um not with regard not with regards insulation um to my knowledge
02:47:02 knowledge all insulation was 100 fireproof right fire retardant um you know having seen it being used on on buildings i i just assumed that everything was 100
02:47:15 i just assumed that everything was 100 percent fibrin yeah what about the phrase class naught had you ever heard that before i had heard of the phrase when it came to paint
02:47:25 to paint but not when it came to any other material
02:47:30 did you have any understanding in general terms about where cavity barriers needed to be placed in an external wall in order to comply with absolutely the building regulations so can you just describe in general
02:47:42 so can you just describe in general terms what you understood about the locations in which cavity barriers were required so cavity barriers would be used
02:47:49 be used uh at every floor yeah um and then between uh the walls of each flat so basically you're you're compartmentalizing uh each property
02:48:00 property yeah did you understand that cavity barriers are required to limit fire spread within the cavity and also to limit fire spread from a compartment into the cavity wall
02:48:15 from a compartment into the cavity wall uh no
02:48:20 were you aware that there was uh guidance suggesting that cavity barriers ought to be installed around openings including windows
02:48:28 windows no in your time doing cladding projects previously had you ever encountered cavity barriers around windows before no i hadn't no um as i say any building
02:48:40 no i hadn't no um as i say any building that i've done the new window would always go back into the concrete opening were you aware that close attention had to be paid to the
02:48:51 attention had to be paid to the installation of cavity barriers to inhibit the spread of flame in the event of a fire involving the external cladding system absolutely yes and what
02:49:02 absolutely yes and what what would you thought that meant so you say you're aware that close attention needs to be paid what kind of things would you think you needed to be looking out for in a cavity barrier system to ensure that it's going to prevent the spread of flame
02:49:14 spread of flame um so the first thing you'd look at are the fixings that are holding it in place
02:49:21 place i.e an angle and also you'd be looking at how it's jointed
02:49:28 jointed between each length of uh firebreak um and yeah yeah were you aware that the rain screen cladding facade was required
02:49:40 rain screen cladding facade was required to be installed in accordance with a cwct standard a center for windows and cladding technology standard
02:49:49 so when you read the specification on grenfell that multiple page document you talked about you didn't notice at any point in that that there was a requirement for a cwct standard to be complied with
02:50:03 for a cwct standard to be complied with i don't recall no no
02:50:07 were you ever provided with a cwct um guidance on the grenfell project um not from memory no let me just have a look at something with you um if we can
02:50:19 look at something with you um if we can go to cwct 5046 just want to see if this triggers any recollection so this is something called the standard for systemized building envelopes
02:50:31 for systemized building envelopes and part 6 deals with fire performance is that document in any way familiar to you
02:50:37 you i recognize the document but i can't tell you exactly what's in it and you can't tell us whether you were familiar with it at the time of the grenfell project
02:50:48 grenfell project no no i uh i believe i mean i think i've seen this on ryden's um
02:50:55 um m drive um right electronic system but uh
02:50:59 uh you know i wouldn't have gone into it in detail so you weren't familiar with it at the time of the project
02:51:06 and you wouldn't have been familiar with the fire performance requirements dealt with in it no were you aware of any other industry guidance that provided commentary on um
02:51:18 guidance that provided commentary on um external wall construction and and fire at this time
02:51:23 so can you repeat the question yeah were you aware of any other industry guidance that provided commentary on external wall construction and fire at this time no
02:51:35 at this time no so for example um the building control alliance bca and their technical guidance notes have you ever looked at those no
02:51:45 and you were never provided with any other industry guidance by ryden um i wouldn't say i mean all the information you know is on their
02:51:57 all the information you know is on their m drive
02:51:58 m drive um so you know site managers can easily access that um at any time which i see but but nobody actually said to you in your role on this project it would be
02:52:09 in your role on this project it would be very useful if you read this piece of guidance or that piece of guidance you don't recall that i don't recall now now in terms of your understanding of different types of padding products
02:52:20 different types of padding products products that were on the market at this time at the time of the grenfell project were you aware that there were different kinds of cladding panels available including metal panels consisting just
02:52:32 including metal panels consisting just of metal but then metal composite materials which had a mixture of metal and say a plastic core i was aware that there were
02:52:44 i was aware that there were metal panels and i was aware that yes that there was ones that were enclosed uh that had a sort of
02:52:51 sort of infill on the panel and it was my understanding that the reasons for that was to sorry was to um prevent noise and things like that that
02:53:05 prevent noise and things like that that was
02:53:05 was that was my only understanding of other yeah were you aware at the time that panels
02:53:12 panels um these aluminium composite material panels frequently contained a pe core that was combustible highly combustible absolutely not no no i think if i had
02:53:23 absolutely not no no i think if i had known that i would have you know stopped everything you know looked into it but i didn't have a clue thinking back to the acm panel that was used on the grenfell
02:53:34 used on the grenfell project what did you think the core was i mean did first of all did you notice there was a core in that panel i knew that
02:53:39 that there was a core in there yeah like i said before uh it was my understanding that anything going on any building um is fireproof fire
02:53:51 um is fireproof fire did you ever think about what that core was made of and did you ever ask anybody what the core was made of um no to be honest um if some
02:54:02 no to be honest um if some if someone had asked you at the time what's in the middle of these panels what would you have said um i probably wouldn't have been able to answer
02:54:11 answer i knew that there was an infill but i would you know because as a site manager you've got a set of
02:54:17 set of um drawings yeah and basically that's what you do you build to those drawings yeah absolutely were you aware at the time that panels were available with fire retardant or fire
02:54:28 available with fire retardant or fire resistant
02:54:29 resistant cores which were less combustible no did you ever have any discussions with anybody within ryden about these kind of topics about um
02:54:41 these kind of topics about um the cause of panels or the fire retardants of panels no no i saw no no cause to
02:54:50 were you aware that there'd been other major fires uh in high-rise buildings both in the uk and
02:54:56 and internationally when you worked on the grenfell project um not particularly no um had you heard of a fire at lachen or house in 2009
02:55:07 house in 2009 in southwark i'd heard of that one but that is the only one um and again i just heard it in the industry i didn't know specific details of that so you didn't
02:55:19 specific details of that so you didn't know it had anything to do with the external cladding at all no and had you heard of any fires internationally for example uh in in dubai um had you heard about tower
02:55:31 in dubai um had you heard about tower tower fires in dubai no no i didn't were you aware that in january 2012 a fire had occurred at taplo house in the chalcott's estate involving
02:55:42 in the chalcott's estate involving aluminium cladding installed by ryden i didn't no no one told you that when you were working on the grenfell project no
02:55:52 so you weren't aware of the incident report that had been prepared following that fire
02:55:57 that fire no not away at all
02:56:00 did you know what the acm product was that was to be used in the cladding at grenfell tower did you know what the make of the product was the manufacturer
02:56:11 was the manufacturer um no
02:56:15 so just looking at paragraph five of your witness statement which is on page one
02:56:27 which is on page one and i want to ask you about that what you say in the very last sentence you're describing there that the fitting of the the installation
02:56:38 that the fitting of the the installation on the exterior of the building and far breaks being fitted we'll come back to that
02:56:42 that and then you say this in the last sentence you say the materials used appeared to be commonly used materials in the industry do you see that there i do yes can you just explain to us precisely what you
02:56:53 just explain to us precisely what you meant by
02:56:55 meant by by that um well the panels um didn't look unusual to me um they were they were ones i'd seen before
02:57:06 before going on buildings um and same stood for the fire break and for the installation and it looked the same when you say you'd
02:57:17 it looked the same when you say you'd seen them before going on buildings was that just as a a bystander an observer of other buildings or was it based on your actual experience in constructing other buildings um
02:57:29 constructing other buildings um it was buildings that i'd seen in progress that i wasn't working on and as i say i come from a fitting background and it was very similar to to what they
02:57:42 and it was very similar to to what they were fitting back in 2005. and was your assumption that the materials were compliant based on the fact that these types of materials had been used on other projects yeah um like i say my understanding was
02:57:55 yeah um like i say my understanding was that anything that goes on any building has to be 100 fireproof sorry yeah now if we just look at an email that's sent to you when you start on the project uh if we
02:58:07 when you start on the project uh if we can go to ryd three zeros four zero zero seven two
02:58:21 so if we look at sorry i'm not sure yes sorry no no that sorry that was the email sorry
02:58:32 email sorry so if we look at the email at the top of that page this is simon lawrence to you on the 28th of april 2015. yep and he says hi danny he says another
02:58:44 yep and he says hi danny he says another relevant email to the cladding package regards simon do you see that there i do and then we can see that what he's forwarding is an external finishes schedule do you see that there
02:58:55 see that there yeah now if we can look at that external finishes schedule this is sca50232
02:59:11 if we could just blow up the top of that so this is the an external finisher schedule and what we see is if we look six lines down in the main table
02:59:23 main table we see it says solid spandrel range screen panels walkway plus two and above do you see that there i do and we can see the material is said to be aluminium composite panel
02:59:34 aluminium composite panel and then it says manufacturer rayna bond do you see that there i do and then to the right smoke silver metallic durogloss 5000 satin now do you remember reviewing that
02:59:46 satin now do you remember reviewing that information uh when you started work on the project uh i do remember the email i do remember opening it did i read it word for word and
02:59:59 did i read it word for word and understand it fully then probably the answer is no
03:00:04 but i think you said earlier you didn't know exactly what product was being used um this would have told you wouldn't it it would appear so yeah yeah okay
03:00:16 mr chairman i'm now about to move to a different topic about um overseeing the installation of the cladding so that would be a good moment yes very well thank you very much thanks well mr osgood we're going to have a
03:00:27 well mr osgood we're going to have a break now so we can all get some lunch um we'll come back at 2 o'clock to resume
03:00:33 resume your evidence while you're out of the room please don't discuss your evidence or anything to do with the refurbishment with anyone else and we'll see you later and if you'd like to give the our show she'll look
03:00:44 like to give the our show she'll look after you
03:00:45 after you right thank you very much
03:01:00 two o'clock thank you
03:01:32 you