Grenfell Tower Inquiry - Rydon Evidence - Wednesday 29th July 2020 (2/2). Evidence from Simon Lawrence and Simon O'Connor regarding Rydon's role as main contractor, material substitutions, and project management failures.
00:00:28 right would you ask mr blake to come back
00:00:42 please
00:00:56 um
00:01:01 right mr rigg thank you yes mr chairman mr blake
00:01:04 mr blake um i just wanted to go back to a topic we looked at before the lunch break which was carl stokes and there's a document that i should have shown you this morning but i want to show you now can you look
00:01:15 i want to show you now can you look please at cst401284
00:01:24 this is an email at the bottom of the page that i think you won't have seen before
00:01:29 before between carl stokes and the tmo uh from april 2017. it's from carl stokes to janice ray uh and
00:01:42 uh carl stokes says to janice ray grenfell was clad but the cladding complied with the requirements of the building regulations lots of questions asked of ryden's and
00:01:54 lots of questions asked of ryden's and answers received back from them did you receive questions from mr stokes do you remember about the cladding
00:02:05 do you remember about the cladding um no i don't i don't remember that well uh mr stokes is saying uh that lots of questions were asked of ryden's
00:02:14 ryden's in the context of the cladding complying with the building regulations do you remember receiving any questions from mr stokes about whether the cladding complied with the building regulations no i don't do you remember providing any
00:02:27 no i don't do you remember providing any advice or answers to mr stokes about whether the cladding complied with the building regulations no i don't to your knowledge did anyone from ryden give mr stokes any assurances
00:02:39 from ryden give mr stokes any assurances regarding the compliance of the clouding system
00:02:42 system with the building regulations i don't know whether they did i'd like now to turn to the topic of um fr 5000
00:02:51 fr 5000 which was one of the insulation products to be used on grenfell tower and in the end was uh was changed to uh our um rs5000 but
00:03:04 changed to uh our um rs5000 but there was no product change can i uh ask you to look please at sea 50169 page 73 this is the nbs specification and
00:03:17 this is the nbs specification and specifically that part of it which specifies or specified uh fr 5000 as insulation for use of grenfell tower if we look at paragraph 776
00:03:30 if we look at paragraph 776 in this section dealing with h92 range green cladding we can see there that the thermal insulation was stipulated uh as rigid pir insulation board
00:03:43 uh as rigid pir insulation board manufacturer did you see that okay yes
00:03:50 okay yes uh did you read the specification or and specifically this part of it at any point during your involvement with the grenfell
00:03:59 grenfell tower project um i i can't uh recall that right you can't recall that you could see just a little bit lower down that the product
00:04:10 a little bit lower down that the product reference there is fr5000 aluminium foil faced both sides when did you first become aware that fr 5000 was the insulation product
00:04:22 fr 5000 was the insulation product originally stipulated for use out on the tower um after the after the fire i see
00:04:35 were you familiar during your involvement with the project with fr 5000 as a product no does it follow from that that you had no
00:04:46 does it follow from that that you had no views one way or the other about its combustibility that's correct did you ever discuss this product
00:04:55 product with anybody or have anybody mention it to you or ask to discuss it with you during the project during the project yes no i didn't no can i ask you about kingspan cool firm
00:05:06 can i ask you about kingspan cool firm k15 insulation are you aware that although as we can see here from this page the nbs specification provided for the use of celetex fr 5000 a quantity of kingspan
00:05:20 fr 5000 a quantity of kingspan cool firm k15 was also installed on the building as insulation did you know that at the time i didn't know that well i um
00:05:33 from the previous evidence is i'm aware of that and
00:05:42 i was made aware that there was a an amount at the end of the project that was
00:05:50 used on the building
00:05:54 well um you say previous evidence are you referring to the evidence given to this inquiry yes oh i see well let's let's let's just explore that a little bit can i ask you to be shown ryd 30 is
00:06:07 can i ask you to be shown ryd 30 is 94213
00:06:10 94213 at page 10 please now this is david hughes's witness statement and i'd like to look at paragraph 55. he says uh in december
00:06:23 he says uh in december 2015 or january 2016 i discussed with ben bailey and agreed the use of kingspan as harley's had difficulty obtaining celetex
00:06:32 celetex from their supplier as far as i was concerned kingspan and celetex are similar products with similar insulation properties as far as ben and i were concerned it was a ca it was a like for like swap of insulating
00:06:44 like for like swap of insulating material
00:06:45 material i told steve blake and the clerk of works john white of this use of kingspan insulation material
00:06:52 material do you remember having a conversation with mr hughes about swapping rs 5000 for kingspan coolphone k15 um but prior to this being raised i i
00:07:06 um but prior to this being raised i i um it wasn't part of my recall but this um is um something that happened so um i i agree with that you agree with it
00:07:19 i i agree with that you agree with it right yes
00:07:25 did david hughes do you remember ask you whether it was acceptable to use the kingspan product um i don't recall the exact
00:07:42 exchange do you recall whether he was simply i see you don't recall the exchange i mean from your recollection you you accept i think what mr
00:07:54 accept i think what mr hughes is saying here are you accepting what he's saying here namely that he told you of the use because he remembers it or or are you telling us that you have your own independent recollection of that
00:08:06 independent recollection of that discussion his his statement has prompted my recall and i i don't disagree with um what he he's put down here right so do
00:08:18 what he he's put down here right so do you have
00:08:19 you have a recollection of your own of discussing this matter with mr hughes yeah but i don't know exactly what we discuss right
00:08:30 discuss right okay can you remember this much was he asking you for permission to use it or is he asking you or just telling you that it was being used
00:08:40 used um he would be informing me of uh this
00:08:47 uh this this event and i would i would hope that he's telling me that um it is an equivalent material um so
00:09:00 um so that's um that seems perfectly um correct um note of of what we of what we spoke
00:09:12 note of of what we of what we spoke about
00:09:15 so your recollection is that he told you it was an equivalent material i just want to be clear about you yes i i would yeah i would um say that's um what i was told
00:09:28 um say that's um what i was told equivalent in what respect do you remember in in all respects do you know the basis on which mr hughes could have known how
00:09:40 could have known how cool them k15 could have been equivalent to the celetex in all respects um i i don't know that no [Applause]
00:09:53 when this discussion occurred in december 2015 or or january 2016 had the product already been ordered do you remember
00:10:03 um i don't recall do you know whether it was on site it may have been now mr hughes says that as far as he was concerned and i've just shown you this on the uh in his statement kingspan and celetex
00:10:14 in his statement kingspan and celetex are similar products with similar insulation materials and that it was a like for like swap did you have your own view about whether that product was indeed a like-for-like swap with celetex or did
00:10:25 a like-for-like swap with celetex or did you just take it on trust from him i took that as as read right did you know that this product kingspan k15
00:10:33 k15 or well let me ask you a prior question did you understand when he referred to kingspan that he was referring to kingspan cool firm cool firm k15 no it was
00:10:45 the same material from a different manufacturer did you know that kingspan is a pur polyurethane rigid foam whereas celitex
00:10:53 celitex rs 5000 as it had become is a polyisocyanurate pir no i did not right
00:11:06 did you take any steps to satisfy yourself
00:11:09 yourself that celetex and kingspan were like for like materials no i didn't and i and i should have done
00:11:22 yeah you say you should have done what in hindsight yes did you or anyone else at ryden talk directly to kingspan about the suitability of kingspan cool firm k15 on this building
00:11:35 this building uh no
00:11:40 so it would follow from that you never sought any informational documentation as to the fire performance of this product
00:11:46 product on this building no i
00:11:51 assumed without personally checking that it was a light for light product um it was the end of the install
00:12:02 when the mast climbers were coming down
00:12:07 so miracle it was for an extremely uh limited amount that doesn't excuse not checking it out
00:12:18 that doesn't excuse not checking it out but in the context of the whole it was for in filling um the the gaps left on the building with
00:12:30 the the gaps left on the building with the removal of the mask climber fixings did you see where this kingspan was being put on the building at the time um
00:12:41 time um exactly what i've just described is where i understood it to be used do you remember seeing any gaps in any particular places for example the east elevation uh only
00:12:53 for example the east elevation uh only where the
00:12:53 where the the mass climber fixings were removed um so and that that's where i understood it was going to be used right i see okay
00:13:05 right i see okay as they were being taken off the building
00:13:09 building i i i'm assuming that you never asked to see the bba certificate for kingspan i i have this product
00:13:16 product i don't think i did and i can't recall well let me just see if i can show you a document to see if it prompts a recollection
00:13:25 k-i-n-3014639 please
00:13:37 now this is the bba certificate for kingspan insulation uh first issued on the 8th of october 2015.
00:13:47 2015. see that yes and it says in the middle of the page behavior in relation to fire the product is classified as cs1 d naught in accordance with bn
00:14:00 naught in accordance with bn bsen13501
00:14:02 bsen13501 does this prompt a recollection that you saw this at the time december 15 january 16. no
00:14:10 were you familiar with this document at all at the time do you think not the time now
00:14:20 were you aware or did you consider that the substitution uh of rs 5004 cool them k-15 might have had an impact
00:14:31 cool them k-15 might have had an impact on whether the facade design as a whole complied with the building regulations
00:14:38 um
00:14:41 i would have worked on the basis that it was being
00:14:45 was being um suggested as as a as an alternative on the basis that it was um
00:14:54 was um equivalent in every respect
00:15:01 so you that was an assumption that you would have made which you didn't explore that's right did you consider checking back with the contract that you
00:15:12 checking back with the contract that you had with the tma to satisfy yourself that when this substitution was made there was nothing that you should be doing to make sure it was safe
00:15:21 was safe um i would know that from previous experience if there's a um a change that's suggested um
00:15:34 a change that's suggested um it needs to be verified what steps did which were taken to your knowledge to verify i've said that there weren't
00:15:46 can you account for that failure
00:15:52 no
00:15:56 given that this product k15 was not on the nbs spec and it was a substitute it appears that no advice was taken from a
00:16:07 no advice was taken from a fire safety expert such as x over or indeed any fire safety engineer to verify whether it was safe can you explain why that was same reason as i've already said do you
00:16:19 same reason as i've already said do you accept that before accepting the product as an equivalent substitute you should have made those inquiries
00:16:27 um what um what should have done is uh present the the choice to the um architect um i've it's been given
00:16:40 um i've it's been given to us by the um specialist contractor as an equivalent um and then i should have run a uh a process
00:16:51 process by the architect um just to double check but i've accepted on the basis that it's given to me by our
00:17:01 our specialist who is employed with that
00:17:06 obligation um that i would have passed it to the architect for them to check
00:17:14 check now we've already discussed some parts of the contract and i think we've seen that
00:17:17 that the contract with the tma provided that ryden wouldn't substitute any materials specified in the employer's requirements without the prior written consent of the tmo
00:17:27 tmo we saw that yesterday did you notify the tmo will seek the tmo's approval for the use of kingspan coolthon k15 on the building no i didn't why is that
00:17:40 on the building no i didn't why is that for the same reason but what you should have done but what is the reason why you didn't oh you've said i i said i haven't done
00:17:51 oh you've said i i said i haven't done it so
00:17:52 it so i'm just trying to get to the bottom of why there is no reason as to why i wouldn't do that it's um
00:18:04 it's at the there's i can't give a reason why not because that's what i should have done all right did building control ever receive any drawing or specification that provided written confirmation that
00:18:15 that provided written confirmation that kingspan k15 was being proposed as insulation material in this bill is there any reason why that was the case
00:18:26 for the same reason
00:18:32 can i just look at your statement ryd3094225 page 14 please and look at the second line at the top of the page this is paragraph 9.1
00:18:49 and in the first full sentence there you say building control were provided with all that they requested as part of their process for satisfying themselves that the work was compliant
00:19:00 themselves that the work was compliant building control certified that the building was compliant with building regulations now in the light of of your evidence there
00:19:08 there given that building control weren't aware of the substitution of kingspan cool them k-15 do you know how they would have known to request information in respect of it
00:19:21 they wouldn't have done so therefore how could you rely on building control certification that the building was compliant with building regulations if you hadn't told them about the substitution of the insulation
00:19:33 substitution of the insulation and they hadn't considered it by going back to the first part is that um
00:19:44 um i understood from the specialist contractor that it was an equal or approved product for
00:19:57 the the quantum of it is
00:20:02 no excuse for not for not doing that but for a very limited um area at the completion of the
00:20:13 area at the completion of the of the project just following up on that answer you say i understood from the specialist contractor that it was an equal or approved product by specialist contractor do you mean harley
00:20:24 contractor do you mean harley yes i do yeah that's did anyone from harley tell you that kingspan k15 was an equivalent or was it equal or approved product that's going back to
00:20:36 that's going back to today's statement i see
00:20:41 coming back to my question again though how could
00:20:45 how could you rely on building control certification that the building was compliant with the building regulations in circumstances where you knew that building control had not been provided
00:20:56 provided with information about the substitution of
00:20:59 of rs 5000 with kingspan k-15 cool firm i relied on on the basis that um i believe that that product was
00:21:11 i believe that that product was compliant
00:21:12 compliant no that doesn't quite answer my question you're looking at your statement you say building control were provided with all that they requested as part of their process for satisfying themselves that the work was compliant
00:21:26 my question is how could you rely on building control uh certifying and satisfying themselves that the work was compliant when you knew they hadn't had all the information and particularly as
00:21:39 all the information and particularly as i say
00:21:39 i say the information that kingsman cool 15 cool firm k-15 was going on the building
00:21:46 i i'd still rely on it in the same way i believe that product um to be compliant so therefore
00:21:57 um to be compliant so therefore it would be compliant well you might think it was compliant let's assume that but you would know that building control wouldn't have had all the information and therefore you couldn't rely on
00:22:08 and therefore you couldn't rely on building control because you had no building control didn't have the information it must be right
00:22:18 sorry i don't see
00:22:22 why i wouldn't think that right uh different topic cavity barriers at chalcott's and ferry point do you remember there was a fire
00:22:33 point do you remember there was a fire at taplow house on the chalcott's estate in january 2012. id and you were the contract manager for that project i think when she told us yes uh what was your involvement
00:22:45 told us yes uh what was your involvement in dealing with that incident just in headline terms um i was informed by the
00:22:52 by the um client that there'd been a a fire in in the in the property and they asked me to visit site
00:23:05 which i did um that we have an ongoing um maintenance obligation after the refurbishment works
00:23:16 after the refurbishment works um and part of that remit was to um assist with the immediate clear-up um and then thereafter the
00:23:28 um and then thereafter the um reinstatement of the of the of the area damaged by the fire right now can we look at har3010169
00:23:39 right now can we look at har3010169 please
00:23:41 please this is harley's uh incident report from that fire
00:23:46 that fire and we can see that it's dated the 17th of january 2012 and those present included you
00:23:55 uh and from the introduction we can see that
00:23:58 that it has started with a telephone call from steve blake writing construction to tim lovell contracts manager and ray bailey director
00:24:06 director on the 17th of january 2012. it was confirmed that a fire did indeed take place to the inside of a flat 123 on the 17th floor to taplow house
00:24:17 123 on the 17th floor to taplow house and you can see in the second sentence that the new facade also consisted of additional fire breaks and rockwool insulation
00:24:28 do you remember alerting harley to the fire
00:24:31 fire yes look at page four please of that document and i just want to look with you at the words in the middle of the page
00:24:39 page uh now first of all you can see as a photograph with a gentleman pointing is that you it is
00:24:46 is right and then underneath it it says it was evident that despite the fire and the amount of flammable items in the flat such as paper etc the fire breaks were still intact and prevented the fire spreading between
00:24:58 prevented the fire spreading between flats the highly designed fire break system is visible now the surrounding fabric is melted under the extensive heat and we can see you pointing what are you pointing to
00:25:09 pointing to um that's to the head of the window where the
00:25:13 where the um fire break was located when you say fire breaks do you mean cavity barriers um yes
00:25:25 um yes yep you don't sound sure um i know there was a debate about the um definition of the description um so that is um
00:25:39 so that is um yeah it's i would put it as a as a fire break and it is a barrier it is a barrier across a cavity
00:25:49 cavity right so but he either can be applied to this
00:25:57 uh what's been referred to
00:26:01 would be neither what does fire break mean
00:26:04 mean in addition to cavity barriers um the arrangement of camden is is um not
00:26:15 is um not is dissimilar to um grenfell well that just in terms of terminology fire break what does it mean it's a a means of stopping
00:26:26 it's a a means of stopping um fire from one compartment to another can we look at cep 5-0 sorry for
00:26:37 four zeros three two two three please cep four zero three two two three
00:26:45 this is uh um an ab sale survey
00:26:50 for the same incident uh are you familiar with this document i am yes um and let's just look at the distribution list on the next page
00:27:01 distribution list on the next page please page two you can see that um your head of the distribution list there as are ray bailey and daniel anchored jones from harley and others from harley as well like mark
00:27:13 and others from harley as well like mark stapley this is dated the 23rd of january 2012. and if you look please uh at the distribution list in total you
00:27:24 uh at the distribution list in total you can see you're the only ride and representative on that list did you distribute it more widely within ryden when you got it do you think um i i would have thought so yes i can't
00:27:38 um i i would have thought so yes i can't recall
00:27:40 recall precisely but i would think so yes to whom within ryden do you think doing the best you can you distributed it
00:27:50 it um it would have gone to the legal team um that would have been uh
00:27:58 to put insurers on notice um and i would i would have reported it to jeff as a matter of course anyway so um and
00:28:12 to the people on the main who administering the maintenance contract did you have a system did ryden have a system in place to ensure that documents such as this were circulated amongst
00:28:23 such as this were circulated amongst people who needed to see them
00:28:29 yeah it would um
00:28:34 go to whoever was needed to see it did you have a system of ensuring that important lessons arising from events like taplow house
00:28:45 events like taplow house became the subject of an established practice within ryden um lessons learned yeah there was always opportunity for
00:28:56 yeah there was always opportunity for lessons learned
00:28:59 not necessarily a you know a prescriptive formal system um
00:29:06 system um but yeah the okay let's look at the document if you go to the bottom of page one in the introduction you can see in the second paragraph in the page uh there
00:29:15 there it says the damage is recorded as having been extensive you see that sort of the end of the first paragraph and then the look at the third line of the second paragraph the severity of the fire completely destroyed the living room window
00:29:27 destroyed the living room window however the fire was contained from spreading to over floors by the extensive fire breaks located at the head and sill of each window
00:29:36 smoke smoke damage caused further damage to the
00:29:40 to the external cladding and cavity does that accord with your recollection
00:29:48 um well that's this is harley's report that they've produced yes does it accord with your recollection
00:29:58 um i didn't do the report so um no i don't know what you're asking me well
00:30:05 well we saw from the ryden document that that you had been on site yeah and had seen
00:30:11 seen the damage and specifically around the windows because you confirmed that it was you
00:30:16 was you pointing uh my question is does the harley report in the passages i've just read to you correspond with your recollection
00:30:26 it does but they're making a statement about containment the fire went out because the fire brigade put it out
00:30:34 um let's go to page
00:30:40 two at the top there
00:30:48 sorry two at the bottom i should say we go to two at the bottom this is the
00:30:54 yeah where it says the fire was contained from spreading over floors by the extensive fire breaks located at the head and sill of each window
00:31:05 window do you disagree with that conclusion well that was part of the process but that's a statement they're making
00:31:15 they've been asked to provide a report um but i'm reading that and you know the file was put out by the
00:31:26 and you know the file was put out by the fire brigade let's go to page 14 please let's look at the text at the top
00:31:35 you can see in the second line there the conclusion that hardly reaches the fire barrier prevented the spread of fire into the internal space now this is in context in a particular location
00:31:46 location um that's the conclusion and if we can turn over to page 15
00:31:54 we see the conclusion to the document and let's just look at the third paragraph
00:31:58 paragraph it is however apparent that the design of the facade and fire stops has unquestionably worked well as despite the severe heat the extremes of the damage have been compartmentalized within the flat and a progressive tower block fire has
00:32:10 and a progressive tower block fire has not occurred the actions have all involved from designers building users fixing teams and fire brigade may have saved lives and has led to the facade remaining physically intact in many ways this has been a success for
00:32:22 in many ways this has been a success for all concerned now i know you didn't write the report but to your way of understanding it when you read it did fire breaks fire barriers and fire stops all mean
00:32:33 fire barriers and fire stops all mean the same thing or do they mean different things
00:32:37 things um in the context of this report the same thing is that cavity barriers yeah thank you now just pausing there would you agree that anyone reading this
00:32:48 would you agree that anyone reading this document
00:32:50 document would consider that the use of cavity barriers around the windows had been a critical factor in stopping the fire spreading from the flat in which it started to
00:33:02 from the flat in which it started to the rest of the building
00:33:05 um as as part of it yes definitely do you agree with the conclusion set out in that
00:33:13 in that third paragraph there that i've read to you
00:33:22 um yeah um there's no reason not not to agree with that
00:33:31 with that would you also agree therefore that as a recipient of this report and and indeed as the sole representative who actually attended taplo house after the fire you had first-hand knowledge of the
00:33:43 you had first-hand knowledge of the importance of cavity barriers to the prevention of fire spread in high-rise overcloud buildings such as taplo house by the time you began work on the grenfell tower project
00:33:55 grenfell tower project indeed yes and in and in particular you had first-hand knowledge of the importance of cavity barriers around windows
00:34:08 yes i did yes [Applause]
00:34:16 did the tapper house fire caused you to consider whether insulation which was of limited combustibility should be used above 18 meters
00:34:28 no it didn't did the tableau house fire cause you to consider whether acm panels where the riveted or faced fix with a pe core was suitable for residential buildings above 18 meters no
00:34:40 residential buildings above 18 meters no it didn't
00:34:41 it didn't did you having read this report and have reason to think that
00:34:51 a great deal depended upon the proper and effective installation of cavity barriers around the windows as a means of saving lives in
00:35:02 as a means of saving lives in circumstances where acn polyethylene panels were used
00:35:09 um i knew that that was yeah a part of the strategy compartmentalizing um
00:35:22 for the arrangement yes and would you accept that
00:35:29 given the importance of cavity barriers around the windows in order to prevent external fire spread ryden was contractually obliged this is your understanding at the time
00:35:40 your understanding at the time contractually obliged to provide cavity barriers around the windows at grenfell tower that was the design development that um
00:35:51 had taken place on that contract i don't understand that that that was the design that um was um
00:36:03 um was um finalized and installed on that contract so
00:36:07 so um which contract the camden one i see that's not an answer to my question i'm afraid i'm going to ask it once more
00:36:17 once more given the importance of cavity barriers around the windows in order to prevent external fire spread was it your understanding at the time that when ryden entered into its contract with the tmo it was obliged uh to provide cavity
00:36:30 it was obliged uh to provide cavity barriers around the windows at grenfell um i didn't necessarily know that i knew that there was the requirement to provide protection at compartments
00:36:45 provide protection at compartments [Music]
00:36:46 [Music] so that that was my understanding
00:36:53 how many exp prior to the um start of the grandfather project and your involvement in it how many uh incidents like the one at tatplayer house had you experienced
00:37:06 house had you experienced what a full-blown fire a full-blown fire affecting a rain screen cladding uh that's
00:37:13 that's that's my um only experience of that yeah
00:37:17 yeah in the light of that sole experience at tableau house did you ever think to check
00:37:22 check the designs of the windows and ensure that
00:37:25 that the proper cavity barriers were provided for in those designs to ensure that if a fire did break out the same degree of protection would be afforded
00:37:34 afforded at grenfell as experience had shown you had been afforded at taplow house i'm not the designer of um
00:37:46 of um of of of anything so at grenfell that was the commission of harley's studio e
00:37:58 commission of harley's studio e and and to building control well let me qualify the question in the light of your sole experience at taplow house did you ever think to
00:38:09 at taplow house did you ever think to check
00:38:09 check with studio e or harley that property proper cavity barriers were provided for in their designs so as to be sure that if a fire did break out
00:38:20 break out the same degree of protection would be afforded at grenfell as experience had shown you it had been afforded at taplow house um i didn't do that with them no why not
00:38:32 um i didn't do that with them no why not given the experience that you'd had at tapla
00:38:37 tapla because i relied on
00:38:41 harley's in particular if the the notation from their report here would
00:38:48 would show me that they see it as particularly important so why would they um not apply
00:39:00 um not apply um the same uh level um to the to the work they're doing at grenfell i had no reason to think that the
00:39:11 i had no reason to think that the design that they that was
00:39:17 evolved and developed through the exchanges through the design team would not be appropriate i understand that mr blake but i'm just
00:39:30 i understand that mr blake but i'm just asking you from your own experience why you thought it sufficient simply to rely on harleys and let them get on with it
00:39:38 it in circumstances of your own personal experience and involvement at tapley house
00:39:44 house well at the point in time when this design development was occurring
00:39:51 i wasn't
00:39:54 the fulfilling the contract manager's role
00:39:59 role on the project
00:40:07 in very general terms did you know that acm would be gone rather quickly in a fire if there was a fire on the exterior
00:40:16 exterior i did not know that can i ask you
00:40:29 can i ask you a slightly different topic now can i ask you to go please to art six six 40664 one
00:40:43 and this is a set of emails in march 2015
00:40:49 and i'd like you to go to page two and look at the bottom of that page
00:40:53 this is an email from matt smith of max fordham to clare williams of the tmo on the 17th of march you need to go to the to page two please
00:41:05 you need to go to the to page two please and look at the bottom of page two yes uh and afternoon claire he says we've been round the houses with this a bit already now you're not copied in on this i should just say um there appears to be
00:41:17 should just say um there appears to be some confusion with js wright ryden so would you be able to explicit explicitly state which flats the tmo requires to be lifetime homes compliant whether these flats are to be fully compliant i.e middle level trvs
00:41:30 compliant i.e middle level trvs consumer unit etc and then which flats or flats is disabled access and what requirements the tmo has for it lst radiators etc now
00:41:42 etc now if we move up then to the top of that
00:41:46 page claire williams tells mr smith on that day matt if ryden do not know what is in the contract then they should raise an rfi so there can be a formal response within a time frame
00:41:58 within a time frame the question is were you aware that the tmo at this time thought that ryden might not understand its contractual obligations
00:42:08 um i would imagine that we are asking a question because it's not clear
00:42:17 do you accept it was your job to be aware of concerns such as this if they existed
00:42:24 um i see this as
00:42:28 a simple request for information um that would be dealt with by the project team right let's move to page one
00:42:39 right let's move to page one we can see neil reads of artelia's response to matt smith on the 19th of march
00:42:46 and he also sends it to claire williams now you're not copied in again i should just
00:42:51 just draw that to your attention but in the second paragraph mr reed says matt i appreciate we haven't spoken yet but looking forward to working with you and introducing some improved discipline by ryden to the resolution of queries
00:43:03 by ryden to the resolution of queries decisions etc you'll be very welcome to attend the meeting so by copy to nick i will ask him to invite you so we can meet and discuss project status quo
00:43:13 i just want to ask you about the improved discipline brackets by ryden brackets that he refers to did neil reed or anybody else at artelia or indeed claire williams at the tmo for
00:43:24 or indeed claire williams at the tmo for that matter tell you that needed ryden needed to just to improve his discipline in any respect um when i took over the um
00:43:38 when i took over the um cm duties um
00:43:42 part of that would have been um some resolution of outstanding uh queries
00:43:49 queries um
00:43:52 and my recall being that it's not clear from the information provided what was required
00:43:59 required which is why the question has been raised again very um very straightforward um not unusual um dialogue um in a
00:44:12 um dialogue um in a in a contract situation
00:44:16 you say when i took over the cm duties that's october 2015 is it well i've introduced myself to the uh project
00:44:24 project uh simon um gave you notice which i think was 12 weeks so i knew that simon was going um
00:44:36 so i knew that simon was going um that would be end of august september time
00:44:39 time yeah but this is march you see to that i'm asking so at this start you hadn't yet taken over asia so at this stage at this stage when simon lawrence is
00:44:50 at this stage when simon lawrence is still
00:44:51 still the contract manager yeah do you know why
00:44:56 why artelia had the impression that the discipline by ryden needed to be improved
00:45:03 improved um at least in the respect i don't know you don't know whose responsibility at that stage march 15 was it to deal with the resolution of queries decisions etc
00:45:17 that would be uh simon's role to raise that with the with the client team
00:45:23 team i see did anybody from artelia or the tmo come to you and complain that simon lawrence wasn't very disciplined in respect of his resolution of queries decisions
00:45:35 resolution of queries decisions etc um
00:45:38 etc um i i can't recall right
00:45:43 can we look at art four art406629 please
00:45:49 this moves forward in the story by a month or so this is an email from neil reed of artelia to claire williams of the 9th of april 2015.
00:45:59 and you're not copied in on it but i just want to ask you about there's one or two things in it uh he says with my limited involvement to date i held a perception that one the
00:46:10 date i held a perception that one the scope of the work that ryden is doing is not as well understood as it could be there is significant email traffic of what is considered to be in the contract the roles and responsibilities of all parties do not appear as clear to me as
00:46:22 parties do not appear as clear to me as they could be processes for resident liaison crw scope architectural compliance monitoring for example
00:46:28 example new risks and issues are arising that need managing mitigating and for which financial provision is required in terms of bill cost and consultancy implications and then he proposes a meeting and the meeting objective to review the contract
00:46:39 meeting objective to review the contract documents and scope of works desired outcome clarity on what is and is not included in the contract and the implications arising
00:46:49 this would include christian limb and simon from ryden i think that's not i'm sorry and perhaps i simon from ryden both are available should you agree did anybody raise with you at this time
00:47:01 did anybody raise with you at this time early april 2015 the problem that mr reed identifies in paragraph
00:47:08 one um no i don't think so what about issue two that he identifies does anyone raise with you the problem that mr reed identifies there no
00:47:20 that mr reed identifies there no i don't i don't recall that
00:47:27 now i think in your statement you say you received reports from managers on all matters of progress including safety and whether and whether the project was on time and to budget looking at item three
00:47:41 in mr neil mr reed's email is it fair to say that
00:47:44 say that that kind of issue fell squarely within the scope of what should have been brought to your attention through the process you've described
00:47:54 um yeah if there's um items
00:48:01 um items outside the scope of the contract i mean can you explain how come you weren't aware at this time of the matters of complaint or
00:48:12 of the matters of complaint or uh yeah complaint that the subject of paragraphs one and two of mr reed's email
00:48:20 email um i don't see them as complaint i see them as
00:48:25 them as um a
00:48:28 um a an employer's agent um who himself is um new to the job i don't see any uh issue about the scope
00:48:40 i don't see any uh issue about the scope of the work if i think it's good that there's a traffic of email um clarifying exactly what is required i don't see a problem with that at all
00:48:52 don't see a problem with that at all the roles and responsibilities of all parties
00:48:55 parties do not appear to appear as clear to me as they could be that that is a reference to the job as a whole that artelier are the project manager on behalf of the client for
00:49:06 behalf of the client for so that seems to be they're criticizing themselves new risks and issues you can only deal with them
00:49:14 with them as and when they arise um and whatever so that's i don't see that's um an issue either
00:49:28 um an issue either all right that's your that's your answer on the substance uh my question was was whether anybody raised
00:49:35 raised these matters with you at the time never mind
00:49:39 mind whether they're complaints or not complaints did anybody raise with you the matters identified in paragraphs one two and three at the time um i don't think they they they did and i i don't see
00:49:52 they they did and i i don't see a reason for well uh
00:50:01 can we look at art406657 this is an email sent after a meeting which appears to have taken place on the 17th of april 2015.
00:50:12 17th of april 2015. from nick valente of artelia to simon lawrence claire williams and neil reed and it contains the the same text as we saw before at the top meeting objective to review
00:50:24 at the top meeting objective to review the contract documents and scope of works
00:50:26 works desired outcome clarity on what is and is not included in the contract and the implications are rising and that was the meeting that was held and it looks as if this email is the one that is one that
00:50:39 email is the one that is one that follows the meeting were you aware at the time that matters had got to the stage where it was necessary to hold a meeting with simon lawrence with the express aim that there be clarity on what is and is not included
00:50:51 clarity on what is and is not included in the contract um simon may have raised this with me and that that's exactly what i'd expect from the contracts manager to be doing had anyone expressed to you that
00:51:06 had anyone expressed to you that there was no clarity on what is and is not included in the contract
00:51:14 if simon had raised that to me that that that's what was occupying a great deal of his time doing
00:51:22 again i'd see that as a perfectly reasonable
00:51:28 situation and and him being part of the process
00:51:33 process to to clarify exactly that well forgive me mr blake but wasn't it ryden's job as design and build contractor who had responsibility for managing the
00:51:45 who had responsibility for managing the process
00:51:46 process among other things of the performance of its subcontractors wasn't it ryden's job to make sure that everyone who was involved in the project had clarity about their respective roles
00:51:58 we have our role as principal contractor to be
00:52:01 to be part of the team and the uh the employer's agent role is uh that's artelia's uh responsibility
00:52:12 that's artelia's uh responsibility so that there's a an ebb and a flow of information in that respect so you saying that this was a concern for artelia
00:52:23 was a concern for artelia but not a concern for ryden this is demonstrating to me that the contract team is is doing their job asking the questions
00:52:35 is doing their job asking the questions clarifying
00:52:38 and understanding the contract because on on these items here um there is a there's an element of uh
00:52:49 there is a there's an element of uh change that's been accommodated um that is part of the um tmo's choices
00:52:59 did he not come as a surprise to you to discover from mr lawrence that you should that anyone from writing should need to be invited to a meeting such as this with your client concerning
00:53:11 such as this with your client concerning what
00:53:11 what is and is not included in the contract over a year after ryden had been appointed
00:53:20 uh no i think that's a perfectly reasonable circumstance really
00:53:29 really do you know what led mr reed to take the step that he did and to organize this meeting
00:53:41 for the reasons that he's identified in his
00:53:44 his previous uh email can we go to art406681 please
00:53:58 this is an email that mr reed sent mr lawrence on the 10th of july 2015
00:54:06 2015 copy to the tmo
00:54:13 and i'm sorry you're being shown page one i'd like page three please of that string
00:54:19 string thank you yes that's that's the page now um
00:54:24 um it's it says simon i understand that we have moved no further forward on the below since your your team's meeting with treachen i'd like to request a meeting with you
00:54:35 i'd like to request a meeting with you your team and your director next friday morning 17th july to discuss how ryden is planning to deal with the commercial service required including the response awaited re-my email of 22nd of may we remain disappointed
00:54:46 disappointed not to have received a response from ryden and have little option other than to escalate the issue please confirm that this is possible and who will attend meeting objective to discuss the commercial status quo
00:54:57 to discuss the commercial status quo lack of responsive stroke proactive commercial service from writing and how we can remedy the issues desired outcome strategy agreed for resolving the issue with oversight from a writing director
00:55:15 now the director first of all um must have been you mr blake i imagine yes yes were you ever told of mr reed's
00:55:26 yes were you ever told of mr reed's request
00:55:27 request for this meeting um
00:55:32 i can't recall but i'm i would have hoped
00:55:37 hoped i would have done all right uh in the light of mr reed's desired outcome
00:55:45 outcome including the perceived need for oversight from from you do you accept that by this stage mr reed had come to the view that the staff or the team
00:55:55 the team presently working on the grenfell project were not performing adequately um i would say what specifically they're not um
00:56:06 what specifically they're not um performing against if it's requests for um financial information in respect of changes
00:56:16 then if if the team is occupied doing other things
00:56:25 things then that commercial [Music]
00:56:29 [Music] or that that advice um may take longer than um than than neil would um expect um that's
00:56:43 expect um that's we have a finite resource um and that's that's how it would be um allocated
00:56:57 um allocated i mean it's clear from this email that mr reed was not satisfied with ryden's performance specifically he thought there was a lack of responsiveness and proactive commercial service
00:57:08 and proactive commercial service is the is the fact that he had or was the fact that he had those opinions of ryden's performance at this stage brought to your attention um i can't recall if that was sent to me
00:57:20 um i can't recall if that was sent to me or not
00:57:22 or not well we can't see you copied in it's sent to simon lawrence and we asked the question one more time did simon lawrence raise with you the fact that mr reed had formed a view of ryden's performance
00:57:35 had formed a view of ryden's performance in that it was it was not sufficiently responsive or proactive in the way that mr rita set out there
00:57:42 out there i can't recall but i expect that i would have been
00:57:45 have been did you what did you do about it
00:57:52 well it seems that i'm being invited to a meeting but um i don't know whether that happened or not
00:57:59 not do you remember going to a meeting with mr reed and discussing the matters which were on his mind i don't recall
00:58:07 looking at this email at least do you accept that artelia at least by this time
00:58:11 time considered that there was a serious issue regarding wrighton's responsiveness on the project that required to be dealt with by someone at your seniority that uh certainly says that yes um so
00:58:24 uh certainly says that yes um so now if we move up the email chain we can see zach maynard's response he's copied in on this email but he is the one who is sent in to respond so to speak and he
00:58:36 sent in to respond so to speak and he responds
00:58:37 responds on the 13th of july
00:58:41 back to neil reed and simon lawrence
00:58:45 and this one is copied to you as you can see you're the last copy e on it so you can see it
00:58:52 when you got this email from zach maynard did you look at what it was he was responding to um i may have done i i haven't got a recall of this
00:59:03 recall of this so by the 13th of july and the time when zach maynard came to respond you must have realized that neil reed wasn't happy with ryden's service
00:59:11 service and then he wanted a meeting with you when i received this
00:59:16 um yeah yeah and you could see that zach maynard's response includes the statement at the end of the second line there that it doesn't appear that a meeting is necessary and there's very as there's
00:59:28 necessary and there's very as there's very little information outstanding was that your view um i can't recall this so i i can't confirm that did you discuss mr
00:59:39 i can't confirm that did you discuss mr maynard's response to mr reed before he sent it do you remember
00:59:43 remember i don't know would it be usual for you to do so given that you essentially had been identified as the as the person to go to a meeting
00:59:59 i um relying here on
01:00:03 zack's response um uh he's he's a seat he's a hold a senior position
01:00:14 hold a senior position and it seems that he's responded in detail to the items raised i would be always willing and available to meet me
01:00:29 any of the project team so
01:00:33 that that's a given in my role
01:00:53 can i ask you to go to art four zero six two six six two zero six please
01:01:04 this is an email i think we looked at before from simon cashton it will read on the first of october 2015. this is the one about your relationship going
01:01:14 going the relationship with peter madison going back a long way remember we looked at that yesterday afternoon mr mr blake can i ask you this time to look at the end of the fourth line down
01:01:32 where it says peter fully appreciates what we're doing and is very supportive of our approach what we did agree was that he and i would meet with steve next week to have an offline chat to review the
01:01:43 to have an offline chat to review the overall situation and try and explain that no one is threatening ryden's or trying to be aggressive but rather we're trying to guide them as to what they need to do to sort themselves out
01:01:54 need to do to sort themselves out hopefully this might make steve open up a little more than when he is in meetings where he feels under threat and is therefore less forthcoming peter reiterated that the key for him is still budget then quality and finally time there is a
01:02:07 then quality and finally time there is a huge political agenda sitting over him and what he needs us to do is to ensure that he does not get strung up as a result of reporting things that turn out not to be true
01:02:18 turn out not to be true i just want to focus on the end of the first paragraph there uh do you remember do you remember whether that meeting took place
01:02:32 um i do know that we we had a meeting um
01:02:40 so that that date is december 15 uh sorry october 15th yes i'm sorry it is it's october 15 yes it's american dating but it is october 15.
01:02:51 15. um i remember at the end of the contract um we um
01:02:59 um we um part of the conclusion of any contract is to
01:03:03 is to um uh to
01:03:06 um uh to put a final account uh proposal to the client
01:03:10 client um we also have to put in the notices to
01:03:18 regularize the contract with respect to the the time finish and we need to get paid against our um
01:03:30 we need to get paid against our um application so at that point in time which was october 15 which is
01:03:42 which was october 15 which is running up to the conclusion of the contract
01:03:46 contract um we had we hadn't had um i think there's one extension of time granted
01:03:54 granted um but there was a huge uh quite significant disparity in terms of
01:04:01 of of that award and and the the projected end of the contract so that gave us a liability we had a final account that wasn't um agreed
01:04:12 agreed um and that was putting pressure on the the cash flow of the project
01:04:22 so and the response from martellier was that you're not entitled to any of this um so that was putting us into a um
01:04:35 for one of you know it was a you know a stressed position
01:04:44 can we look at pages two and three of this
01:04:47 this uh email string and i'd like to have pages two and three put up next to each other this is the email to which the one i've just been showing you is a response
01:04:58 you is a response and it's dated the 27th of september 2015 from neil reed to simon cash so it's internal at artelia
01:05:07 artelia and it's it's subject is sit rep following visit thursday 24th september 2015 and i just want to focus on two paragraphs in it first of all paragraph two please
01:05:18 paragraph two please um where it says since the meeting the cw cows report that further and ongoing delays brackets cladding brackets mean that there is little confidence in completion being achieved
01:05:30 confidence in completion being achieved in january 2016 i believe february is looking more tenable based on the delays in september but this may worsen should significant progress not be achieved in the coming two weeks
01:05:40 two weeks the cow continued to flag quality control related problems which i'm concerned
01:05:45 concerned ryden is not closing expediently that sb and sl simply need to do better to work with the cow and resolve the quality issues being raised
01:05:57 and then just looking at page three and paragraph five please it it refers to a handover me completion a kickoff meeting on the 24th of
01:06:08 a kickoff meeting on the 24th of september
01:06:11 and it goes on in the second line and this was a little frustrating as much of what had been discussed agreed and minuted at the progress meeting was revisited and clarified a completion strategy was discussed
01:06:22 a completion strategy was discussed briefly and a further meeting will be organized with stakeholders on or around 8th october this is to allow 2-3 meetings to take place prior to completion anticipated to be achieved no earlier than january it will serve as a forum in which to
01:06:34 it will serve as a forum in which to define success agree the deliverables track and manage actions proactively and ensure the ride and provide the things it is obliged to provide under the contract ryden will be adopting what they describe as a trade approach
01:06:46 describe as a trade approach to the producing the information and will issue a tracker document ahead of the meeting to identify all the things it plans to provide artelia will issue an agenda and share the meeting and just looking at those two paragraphs out of a
01:06:59 looking at those two paragraphs out of a number in that letter were you aware at this time
01:07:01 this time late september 2015 that artelia uh thought that ryden had to sort itself out in respect of quality program costs and other matters i've just shown
01:07:12 costs and other matters i've just shown you
01:07:15 you um yeah i'm aware of all those issues yeah were you did you agree that management of ryden on this project needed to sort itself out
01:07:26 out using those words in the end at that time i i don't agree with the statement sort itself out um the uh the employer's agent need to um understand the reasons why
01:07:39 um understand the reasons why things are um that they're describing as they are
01:07:44 they are um
01:07:48 yes i'm just good i'm just i'm so sorry to continue your answer how did you finish well the question was was i aware of
01:07:59 well the question was was i aware of this
01:08:00 this the answer is yes um my uh response to it is that um that there's a lot of explanation as to
01:08:11 that there's a lot of explanation as to why things were as they are as as they were um so um and i made mention of that in my
01:08:22 um and i made mention of that in my previous office of the the positions that we needed to um achieve which would be okay the time money
01:08:36 okay the time money and also the everything that's needed to achieve pc at handover um so there's nothing in there that i i disagree with all right thank you
01:08:50 i disagree with all right thank you now i want to move the story on a bit if i may uh are we going to another topic
01:08:56 topic not well not really no no all right um i'm just thinking that we getting to that time when we might well yes
01:09:08 yes we could take a break now i'm perfectly happy too might be a good time if it's not too but it's as good as any mr chairman probably um we'll have a short break now i think
01:09:19 i think 10 minutes or so should be enough so usual rules they're talking about your evidence please okay and then we'll come back at 20 past
01:09:46 please
01:20:54 good yes can we have mr blake back please
01:21:21 right ready to carry on mr blake i am i thank you
01:21:25 thank you yes mr millet mr blake can i ask you to go to ryd3044349 please i'd like you to look at page two in that
01:21:36 i'd like you to look at page two in that and look at the middle of the page this is an email from simon lawrence dated the 22nd
01:21:41 the 22nd of june 2015 to james clifton zach maynard attaching invoices for andy hannibus
01:21:50 hannibus and his supervisory works at the tower now if we look at the top of page 2 with me
01:21:54 me mr blake you can see that mr maynard passes this to you directly to say that mr hannibas rate had been reduced but he was still on site you see that
01:22:05 but he was still on site you see that yes yeah that's the context i'd like to turn to page one and look at the middle you emailed mr lawrence there
01:22:13 to say the gift of timing this is burning a hole in our pockets can we reduce this to once a month catch up
01:22:21 up what do you mean by this is burning a hole in our pockets um this is um
01:22:31 a guy that we employed uh to to help with the uh m e store um there was a presumably an allowance made
01:22:42 there was a presumably an allowance made in the budget um that we were overspending against in what regard did mr
01:22:50 mr lawrence need to catch up
01:22:54 um well i've asked him a question can we reduce this to once a month and catch up what do you mean by catch up
01:23:03 up talk about it right oh i see you're not telling him to catch up with the project you're telling him that you want to meet him and discuss it yes i think now let's look at the top of the page
01:23:15 now let's look at the top of the page for mr lawrence's response and i want to focus on the first paragraph he says not that i disagree with the fact stewart is costing us money so probably over budget however it disappoints me that zach has sent
01:23:27 it disappoints me that zach has sent this to you without talking to me if i had actually seen any budget for grenfell in the last eight months at least
01:23:33 least then we may have been able to manage this differently did it surprise you to learn that mr lawrence had not seen any budget for grenfell in the previous eight months at least
01:23:43 least um yeah the budget is available anytime for for a contract manager if if um if they wish to look at it it's it's it's on the system and um
01:23:56 it's on the system and um he's it's available for him to see and and use
01:24:00 and use did it surprise you to learn that mr lawrence had not seen any budget for grenfell in the previous eight months
01:24:12 months um yeah um but again as i'd say it's available if he wanted to see it you just gotta ask for it did you go
01:24:23 you just gotta ask for it did you go back to
01:24:24 back to mr lawrence and say why have you not seen a budget for this project for eight months at least it's on the system explain yourself uh no i didn't why is that
01:24:36 that um because i didn't see a need to you didn't see a need to take him up on the fact
01:24:44 the fact that your contracts manager had not seen a budget
01:24:47 a budget for this project for eight months why is that
01:24:55 i didn't take that up with him no i know i'm just seeking to really understand understand why why you let that go um
01:25:07 because it's
01:25:10 it's available for him so he he doesn't need to be shown it he can find out for himself
01:25:23 we go on in the email he says at the moment we have a poorly performing site which is mainly but not totally caused by poor surveying and cheap incompetent subcontractors
01:25:35 subcontractors did you agree with mr lawrence's evaluation of ryden's subcontractors as cheap and incompetent mr blake no i mean you know i see this is a
01:25:49 no i mean you know i see this is a point in time against a frustrated man um
01:25:54 um doing his job in um
01:25:58 in the with a lot of um activities going on at the same time and yeah he's obviously uh uh
01:26:09 yeah he's obviously uh uh frustrated so he's he's venting that um with me
01:26:22 um with me does that tell us that you didn't agree with him that the subcontractors were cheap and incompetent you thought they were expensive and competent did you
01:26:34 um that that that is that's his view at a point in time i i didn't have a i didn't have a view about that you
01:26:45 i didn't have a view about that you didn't have a view about whether the subcontractors in the opinion of your contract manager were all weren't cheap and incompetent
01:26:56 and incompetent i i didn't at that that time no i wasn't on site um
01:27:09 due process is um
01:27:14 is run through in order to appoint those subcontractors which the contracts managers is part of that process if there is issues of performance
01:27:27 if there is issues of performance then part of the contract's manager's role
01:27:30 role is to
01:27:33 is to you know bring them to account and to
01:27:39 and to so that they fulfill their obligations as as
01:27:43 as as they're employed if they can't manage to do that
01:27:47 do that then they will be removed from the contract
01:27:51 contract when you received this email did you take any steps to ensure that quality was being maintained on this project um i can't recall what i would have done
01:28:04 um i can't recall what i would have done specifically did you supervise on an ongoing basis thereafter whether quality was being delivered on this project
01:28:15 this project did i do what sorry did you supervise on an ongoing basis whether the process of overseeing the quality delivered by subcontractors uh was being properly delivered
01:28:27 uh was being properly delivered i didn't um supervise on a regular basis here is your contract manager alerting you to the fact that he thought that the subcontractors were cheap and
01:28:39 subcontractors were cheap and incompetent as a result of being told that did you do anything to look for yourself to see whether there was anything in what mr lawrence was saying to you um i can't recall exactly what i did
01:28:55 so i can't um i can't make a statement in the second paragraph penultimate line he says we still have no competent manager to deal with m e issues did you
01:29:06 manager to deal with m e issues did you agree that ryden had no competent manager dealing with m e issues at this time
01:29:11 time um no because that's what the employee of um
01:29:15 of um uh stuart hannah bus was there for so not your problem is that what you're telling us it's all my problem yes so given that
01:29:26 it's all my problem yes so given that you're told by your contracts manager that you've gotten a competent manager to deal with the m e issues the first question was do you agree
01:29:36 i don't know i didn't i don't know did it not concern you of course it concerns me um that's um it's a very negative uh email of a
01:29:48 um it's a very negative uh email of a state of affairs from a contracts manager
01:29:51 manager given his concern what steps did you take to ensure that m e issues were properly managed by wright yeah and i i can't recall what i did about it
01:30:07 what i did about it all right can i ask you to look at a document tmo one zero zero eight five no sorry tmo
01:30:18 one zero zero eight five no sorry tmo zero tm00859230
01:30:24 this is first of october 2015. and it's an email from neil reed to leclaire williams responding to harry met of the 1st of october 2015 that's the context
01:30:37 october 2015 that's the context and he refers to a meeting last week's meeting
01:30:44 and in the
01:30:49 uh you can see there's a list of five points and in the point four um he says uh agree but little else we can do other than monitor situation at present and he
01:31:00 than monitor situation at present and he says this last week's meeting with hard work with steve blake progress and the follow-up on tuesday as his general approach seems to be to kick things back without taking ownership of things that clearly sit with ryden
01:31:11 clearly sit with ryden but do you agree that's a that was a fair observation or description of your attitude at this time mr blake i don't know what point four is referring to
01:31:23 point four is referring to well if we want we can look at the email to which is the response let's do that page two item four please email claire williams to neil reid first of october ryden resources i'm still not convinced that ryden have enough resource to manage the scheme to the end
01:31:35 resource to manage the scheme to the end steve blake's day or two a week does not give the existing site management team a lead
01:31:39 lead miranda's dropping i believe so i'd like to push this point with ryden too at the site meeting as well as generally so that's 0.4 that's the context i'll ask the question again
01:31:51 okay i'll ask the question again
01:31:56 and the question was
01:32:00 would you agree that the observation made of paragraph four by mr reed about your attitude was a fair one um no i don't no
01:32:13 um no i don't no are you surprised to read that artelia perceived you at the time as not taking ownership
01:32:17 ownership of things that clearly sit with ryden um i'd i'd be disappointed that's not mine
01:32:29 that's not mine [Music]
01:32:30 [Music] that's not my style do you say that mr reed's view of you was unjustified
01:32:38 to make that comment yes i would yes all right
01:32:42 right i just want to ask you a question or two about handover from mr lawrence to you as contract manager art406706 please
01:32:53 manager art406706 please this is an email from john white a clerk of works
01:32:57 of works working for john rowan and partners it's alt406706
01:33:03 alt406706 thank you and it says uh i'd give you the date it's the 5th of october 2015 mr blake to say you're clear about the dating um and the second
01:33:15 and the second line mr white tells ms williams just sent my report not good reading i'm afraid simon from ryden's needs to start handing over all the duties to his replacement asap and ryden's needs to get the cladding
01:33:26 and ryden's needs to get the cladding contractor up to their labour immediately now i know you weren't copied in on this obviously at the time my question is when mr lawrence left ryden in october 2015 was there a
01:33:38 ryden in october 2015 was there a handover
01:33:39 handover of his responsibilities to you as the incoming contract manager uh yes there was yeah was there a handover pack of documents for you to read
01:33:51 read no what did the handover entail you can tell us briefly um
01:34:00 i would
01:34:03 obviously spend an amount of time with simon
01:34:07 simon discussing the job we discussed it to during the process of our normal exchange um
01:34:19 normal exchange um as director contracts manager and then i would make myself familiar with the information
01:34:33 to administer the contract and by way of example i would start with the
01:34:41 the site meeting minutes which identifies actions for ryden today does that tell us that you didn't start by looking at all the individual contracts
01:34:54 no i wouldn't do that so contracts manager coming into the job wouldn't look at the contracts is that is that normal um the the job is
01:35:06 um the the job is in in progress so i would i'd only refer to them if there was a need for me to do that right
01:35:16 going to another document this is art406662
01:35:20 art406662 at page 2 please this is an email from tony batty he's of silcock dawson and this is an email from him to claire williams and others on the 6th of
01:35:32 williams and others on the 6th of november 2015. can i just show you that mr batty says that the properties for these are voids for inspection and he identifies them one four five one
01:35:44 he identifies them one four five one three six and one two four there and um he says in in summary that the properties have not been made ready for inspection
01:35:55 have not been made ready for inspection uh and
01:36:00 underneath where it says chris holt the site manager and i think what's happened here is that this is a a a a response to an earlier email
01:36:10 under that it says clearly we cannot continue like this when we inspect the occupied flats and something needs to be done rydens should be inspecting and signing off the flats
01:36:19 flats and then capital letters before the cows now let's turn over to page one for mr reed's response
01:36:28 uh he comes back to tony batty on the 6th of november 2015 on this subject thanks for this
01:36:40 on this subject thanks for this uh and then in the third paragraph he says claire either way this is shoddy management by ryden of our team's time and effort and i would urge you to elevate this to peter for his discussions with steve
01:36:51 to peter for his discussions with steve this demonstrates again that ryden must do better i hold a perception from their inaction here that they are apathetic to our efforts to help
01:36:59 help and need to be far more proactive in getting work complete and right first time do you do we need a high-level meeting to discuss the new elephant in the room i don't think i need to ask you about
01:37:10 i don't think i need to ask you about that my question is were the concerns that mr reed is reflecting in this email here about shoddy management of ryden
01:37:22 and apathy ever raised with you at this time the
01:37:25 time the early november 2015. this is the time when you just come in as contracts manager
01:37:31 manager um well it doesn't appear that i've seen this email um my uh
01:37:39 um my uh introduction to the contract um would be uh to focus on um the critical path um parts of the contract um
01:37:53 parts of the contract um and that didn't include um this
01:37:59 um this element of work so my focus was um to apply all my energy um into uh the first part of that of
01:38:12 into uh the first part of that of of getting items of work in place
01:38:20 and finalized in order to
01:38:25 produce the best
01:38:28 finishing um
01:38:33 point for the for the program um and this this work is not part of that um critical path um so i've
01:38:46 critical path um so i've arranged the management thus um and i could have explained that to the client
01:38:56 client but i didn't um and we certainly weren't apathetic to um any efforts for help um and that
01:39:07 um and that is that was my recall of my introduction into the into the program and
01:39:18 into the program and if my attitude towards that criticism um they may have seen that i i
01:39:30 was focusing on other on other things mr big i'm sorry to cut you off you may have misunderstood my question my question was a very short one did anybody raise the concerns i've shown you in this email
01:39:41 shown you in this email with you at the time no but there was there was um you know they were when i came into the contract um there was an awful lot of change
01:39:54 awful lot of change there was a many
01:39:58 obstacles to progress that was going on simultaneously we had client change we had access to flats um we had
01:40:10 access to flats um we had uh two contractual insolvencies so there was an
01:40:13 was an awful lot of simultaneous event so in terms of my prioritizing
01:40:24 so in terms of my prioritizing the void's work if it suffered as a consequence would be the reason why it did
01:40:38 can i ask you to look
01:40:42 i'm just going to do one more document on this i think can i ask you to look at art406672 please this is an email from mr reed to simon
01:40:53 this is an email from mr reed to simon cash among others of the 9th of may 2016 so we've jumped forward in time and i appreciate mr blake that there was an awful lot that happened between the autumn of 15 and the may of
01:41:06 between the autumn of 15 and the may of 16.
01:41:09 i just want to show you this email this is
01:41:13 an email you didn't see at the time it's internal to artelia and he says this simon the o m's are unacceptable to the cows this is to flag that this is becoming a farce despite all our efforts to ensure ensure
01:41:25 despite all our efforts to ensure ensure a smooth landing i have to say i do not think i have ever worked with a contractor operating with this level of nonchalance we're all getting sucked into doing far more than we ought at this stage of the project
01:41:36 project i'm wondering if if you need to write to the tma to express our concern and what we are endeavoring to do about it additional site visits additional meetings endless emails on design related issues that don't concern us as claire as the design lead etc
01:41:48 as claire as the design lead etc challenging the contractor etcetera i just want to focus very narrowly on the words
01:41:55 the words i don't think i've ever worked with a contractor operating with this level of nonchalance my question to you is is that a fair criticism of writing at this time um
01:42:07 at this time um i've been called many things but nonsense
01:42:11 nonsense is not a word that's been used i absolutely don't accept that did either artelia or the tmo accuse you directly of nonchalance as we see here
01:42:23 see here no they didn't i'm going to turn to a different topic altogether which is cdm regulations did you take any steps yourself to satisfy yourself that the health and
01:42:35 satisfy yourself that the health and safety file had been properly produced and handed to the tmo at the end of the project
01:42:40 project um the the way that that was arranged is that the agreement was that the information contained within the rn manuals
01:42:49 manuals would be used by the tmo um to populate the the health and safety manual
01:42:56 manual we've heard evidence from mr hughes that ryden never received the final copy of the o
01:43:00 the o m manual following handover did you know that at the time um i didn't know that at the time no can i ask you to go to met406610 please
01:43:15 this is a an email chain between steve butler of all group holdings you claire williams neil reed and others dated the 6th of june 2016 and i just want to focus on the second email on that page
01:43:26 email on that page which is to you um steve butler says i'm also producing
01:43:34 you see that i can't quite see that which bit do you want mr millett
01:43:52 which bit do you want mr millett uh let's move on to that again um i'm not sure is the answer um
01:44:00 my question i think is d did you understand whose responsibility it was to produce the health and safety file um yes whose
01:44:14 um yes whose that was the well previously lay with the
01:44:18 the um cdmc
01:44:21 um cdmc um with our obligation to provide the information
01:44:27 to be part of its compile so that that's always the case in in in any job um and then
01:44:38 in any job um and then we were approached um to say would we take over that role which we didn't um and then uh artelia and or
01:44:52 artelia and or the tmo um
01:44:56 was it was reported that they would take the responsibility uh for um for that obligation with us uh providing the information
01:45:08 with us uh providing the information to the health and safety file through the content of the rnm can i ask you to look at the document again please it's it's gone off i think from the screen but it's met
01:45:19 from the screen but it's met 3066178 and just go please to what i was looking for which i couldn't see
01:45:26 see which is the very top of page two it's it's he says i'm also producing a health and safety an hms file from the information i already have as the client
01:45:38 information i already have as the client doesn't seem to think it's their responsibility under the cdm regs it is my question is had the need for a health and safety file been discussed before this time
01:45:49 this time and this is june 2016. um yeah i think it was part of the um handover um
01:46:01 of the um handover um discussions we had a separate um set of minutes um and meetings with respect to um identifying everything uh required to
01:46:15 identifying everything uh required to uh meet handover when you say handover you mean handling sorry uh achieving practical complaints right yes my question i'm sorry i don't think you answered it
01:46:26 you answered it my question is uh had the need for a health and safety file been discussed before early june 2016. or was or was this the first time that it was no my response was i think that it was and
01:46:38 my response was i think that it was and like the medium for that discussion was at those meetings right when do you think the discussion of the completion of the health and safety files started um i can't recall exactly
01:46:51 um i can't recall exactly did you raise any concerns with artelia or the tmo about the timing of the preparation of this health and safety file as at this time early june 2016 uh no i didn't know
01:47:12 can i ask you a number of uh
01:47:20 brief questions about building control
01:47:25 uh in brief terms mr mr blake what involvement did you have in build with building control prior to your taking over the role of contracts manager in october 2015.
01:47:38 manager in october 2015. um i i don't think i had any contact with them
01:47:42 with them what about after afterwards yes now we've heard that there was no formal method for recording other than emails perhaps what drawings were sent to building control
01:47:55 in the absence of a formal tracker how did you yourself after october 2015 take steps to satisfy yourself the building control had everything they
01:48:07 the building control had everything they needed
01:48:08 needed yes i did yeah how did you go about that by uh contacting studio e right who did you contact at studio i can't recall who it was most probably neil crawford
01:48:21 who it was most probably neil crawford was there an occasion you recall when you contacted studio e and asked them that question um i remember contacting them to um
01:48:32 um i remember contacting them to um to make sure that they had submitted all the available information to building control
01:48:44 what was the occasion on which you sought that assurance that that was
01:48:52 that was me making sure that everything necessary to gain building control approval had been sent to building control via the
01:49:04 sent to building control via the architect
01:49:06 architect yes what was the occasion that that's what triggered it that's part of my job to um make sure that that's um happening do you remember when it was i
01:49:19 happening do you remember when it was i i
01:49:20 i can't recall did you do it more than once
01:49:23 once um possibly but i know that i did it um to say to them that their responsibility
01:49:34 to say to them that their responsibility is to
01:49:35 is to um submit that information to to building control did when you say they mean studio e yes did studio e ever come back to you after that and say
01:49:46 that and say we've done it and explained to you what they had done no i do remember from that meeting that um they they confirmed to me that they hadn't um
01:49:56 hadn't um sent the structural engineers drawings to them
01:49:59 to them so i got that
01:50:04 reminded of them that was their obligation to do that which i understand that they did
01:50:12 when you say you contacted studio e to tell them that their responsibility was to submit information to building control can you how did you make that contact
01:50:24 how did you make that contact uh that would have been a phone call a phone call no email no
01:50:34 was it not an important thing to record in writing that you had you had done
01:50:41 if it's important i start with a phone call
01:50:45 call why didn't you follow it up with an email because they must have satisfied me that they indeed done it right and agreed to do it okay
01:50:58 right and agreed to do it okay and
01:51:02 you that was enough for you was it i can't recall whether there was a confirmation back from studio e saying that they um submitted the details so your answer a
01:51:14 submitted the details so your answer a few lines ago was that they must have satisfied me that and they had indeed done it and agreed to do it what did they tell you that they had a good time or that they had done it i can't recall exactly what
01:51:25 had done it i can't recall exactly what was said
01:51:26 was said right
01:51:30 are you aware that there were certain inaccuracies in the information provided to building control certain gaps
01:51:44 [Applause] now
01:51:51 were you ever concerned that building control
01:51:54 control didn't have the structural drawings prior to you finding out about it
01:52:01 um yeah because uh they could come back and say
01:52:06 and say this is um uh this is not compliant and then we may have to
01:52:13 have to um make alterations so um yes i was did that not alert you uh to the fact that perhaps studio e uh were not fully okay with what
01:52:27 uh were not fully okay with what they had to provide to building control um it didn't make me think that they didn't know that they had to do it it just
01:52:38 highlighted that they hadn't done it and then
01:52:42 then from that point um i say that's my role to make sure that the
01:52:51 the building control had sufficient information to issue a compliance certificate was that not something that you thought you ought to monitor
01:53:02 you ought to monitor on a continuing basis
01:53:07 um
01:53:11 yeah yeah the monitoring is is is part of
01:53:14 of our role yeah did you ever have occasion given that the lapse you had found about the structural drawings to go back and make sure studio e had continued to provide building control with up-to-date
01:53:25 provide building control with up-to-date and accurate and complete information about drawings and materials that might that was my understanding was that was um the only item that hadn't been
01:53:36 um the only item that hadn't been provided right thereafter um i was uh i met building control um so i had a
01:53:47 um so i had a a face-to-face meeting with them did you know that the drawings that studio e provided to building control showed that the rain screen was zinc
01:53:59 showed that the rain screen was zinc i didn't know that no can you explain how
01:54:02 how that lapse occurred um the the drawings that um were um constructed would were the harley
01:54:14 um constructed would were the harley drawings
01:54:14 drawings as a specialist subcontractor so for me that's the precedent drawing um so it
01:54:24 um so it it wouldn't have concerned me um had that
01:54:28 that note on the architect's drawing being different
01:54:32 different it's obviously not ideal um but the like i say the um the drawing is is hardest
01:54:46 i just want to go back to ask one or two further questions about the health and safety file did you do any checks yourself to determine if all group holdings were competent and able to produce a compliant
01:54:57 compliant health and safety file um we'd employed them before to fulfill that function um and that's what their business is
01:55:09 um and that's what their business is um so i would think it perfectly reasonable to uh employ them to do that did you understand yourself what needed to go into a health and a health and safety file
01:55:20 file um i've got previous experience of uh o m's and and health and safety files so i i know pretty much yeah was it not
01:55:31 so i i know pretty much yeah was it not your job ryden's job to maintain or compile the health and safety file throughout the project and not just at the very end um yeah you collect information on the
01:55:43 um yeah you collect information on the way
01:55:45 way and then it's presented at the end of the contract so um to the best of your recollection was
01:55:52 was information for the health and safety file compiled as a health and safety file along the way well the drawings would be exactly that yes
01:56:01 yes what about other things in the health and safety file well most things conclude at the end so in terms of
01:56:08 terms of uh
01:56:12 electrical certs and commissioning certs uh completions all generally come at the end of the project um so i don't think that that's
01:56:23 um so i don't think that that's um an unreasonable um point in time to assemble it
01:56:33 did you check the health and safety file once it had been produced um the health and safety file was the for the client the the o m's uh were
01:56:45 for the client the the o m's uh were produced
01:56:46 produced um and i didn't um check them myself no why is that you know uh i didn't see any team who at ryden
01:56:57 see any team who at ryden was responsible for checking the health and safety file handover again we've employed someone who does that for a living so i wouldn't check
01:57:08 wouldn't check the finite detail of of what they've assembled
01:57:12 assembled um and that's presented to the client for their acceptance so um
01:57:20 that's that would be i i wouldn't see a need to do that you wouldn't see a need to do that does that mean that you would not see a need on the part of anybody at ryden to check
01:57:31 on the part of anybody at ryden to check uh that all group holdings had done a proper job before handing the health and safety file to the client um
01:57:40 i wouldn't again i wouldn't check it in finite detail so um that i would they're employed to do that on our behalf now it seems that ryden only received a draft of the o and m manual
01:57:53 received a draft of the o and m manual and never received a final version did you know that um i didn't i didn't know that no
01:58:07 um i didn't i didn't know that no can you explain why you didn't know that
01:58:15 i didn't know that because all group holdings um didn't tell me that what i do know is that
01:58:26 i made arrangements for all group holdings to
01:58:31 meet with the tmo to agree the content to agree uh the referencing um that would be um
01:58:42 um that would be um applied to the pages so that it um fitted into the the tmo system of records
01:58:49 records that that was the purpose of putting the two people together and so that everything that is required under the
01:59:01 everything that is required under the health and safety obligation was provided via uh the owner manuals that we submitted mr chairman i've got one more
01:59:13 submitted mr chairman i've got one more self-contained topic but i'm looking at the time and the topic won't take very long
01:59:17 long i i can't guarantee how long i'm afraid but uh
01:59:21 but uh i will you say not very long are we talking five or ten minutes yes well then i think we'll carry on i'm grateful thank you i want to ask you about about residents and complaints can i ask you first of all please to see
01:59:36 ryd3062813
01:59:41 this is part of an email exchange between you and claire williams on the 22nd of december 2015. and this is in the context of the
01:59:54 departure of one of your staff members or team members uh
02:00:04 and in claire williams email
02:00:11 to you
02:00:14 uh i should perhaps show you john white's email actually first of all to dave david hughes and to you below it uh and he and and john white says he's disappointed that chris is leaving he's
02:00:26 disappointed that chris is leaving he's been the one that has brought all the internal handovers together and a fundamental part of his success i do think there with nearly a hundred flats to hand over his loss will have affect the smooth running of the future handovers
02:00:37 future handovers uh and in the end oh at the end he says i feel his departure would jeopardize ryden's ability to finish the contract successfully and and then claire williams comes on to
02:00:48 and and then claire williams comes on to you on the same day and says steve i was on site this morning and picked up the news about your proposal to move chris i would like to ask you to reconsider this decision as chris has as clark of our works phrased below the trust of our
02:01:00 our works phrased below the trust of our residents
02:01:01 residents he's conscientious and personable and a good person for the resident interface
02:01:07 and then it goes on our clerk of work has reported that people welcome linda and chris by name into their flats and we need this good will to keep the project moving to a satisfactory conclusion i'm aware only through negotiation has
02:01:18 i'm aware only through negotiation has chris been able to get work undertaken where residents have been ambivalent or difficult i would not underplay this skill the grandfather project team has already been through a lot of changes and the continuity of staff plus
02:01:29 changes and the continuity of staff plus the positive attitude of both chris and dave is to me imperative to the project please ring me did you do you respond to claire williams regarding your decision to take chris off the project
02:01:41 to take chris off the project um if she'd asked me to ring i i i would have rung yeah but i i can't remember
02:01:49 remember what i would have said how important was it to structure your to structure your team in a way which gave residents trust and confidence in writing
02:02:00 it's yeah of course it's it's good to see a positive email um so that that's
02:02:11 so that that's that's part of the job in occupied environments did you consider or take steps to bring another resident liaison officer
02:02:21 officer or member of onto site to familiarize themselves with the residents and their various concerns and vulnerabilities
02:02:29 bring another one in yes um linda was there for the duration yes you decided to take chris
02:02:40 duration yes you decided to take chris off the project did you consider taking any steps to replace it with someone with equivalent skills um they all have that
02:02:52 skill set to
02:02:55 to work in in that environment can i ask you to look at another document ryd3090775 please this is an email you sent to john
02:03:06 please this is an email you sent to john heggs at js wright on the 22 24th of february 2016. and uh it
02:03:17 and uh it says a number of things in it and then it said had a residence meeting last night
02:03:21 night so pain is to be shared can you just explain what do you mean by the pain caused by the residents meeting
02:03:32 um
02:03:35 the uh the note that the basically the hi is a there's a trap on the on this let's call it a boiler um and on a windy day
02:03:49 um and on a windy day it basically vibrates um so um that has to be um that had to be remedied so that was
02:04:00 um that had to be remedied so that was uh feedback from the residents meeting so
02:04:04 so you uh the plumbers um need to uh come up with a solution did they
02:04:12 they yes they did yeah with the residents happy yes
02:04:16 happy yes how many of these residence meetings did you personally attend i didn't go to many residents meetings and
02:04:23 and i i would always be available if if requested
02:04:27 requested the the invite came from the tmo
02:04:32 that's that's part of my role to attend residence meetings and i would expect to do that can i ask you to look at rbk three zeros
02:04:44 two seven three zero nine
02:04:48 and this is a set of artelia minutes from the meeting on the 1st of april 2014
02:04:54 2014 we could just see there it's the same minute we looked at before it's the it's the first of april uh contract induction meeting or introduction meeting we know you were
02:05:05 introduction meeting we know you were there from that because we looked at it earlier
02:05:08 earlier can i ask you please to go to paragraph 6.1
02:05:17 which you'll find on page four and under the heading resident liaison it says it was agreed that cs can begin resident profiling
02:05:29 cs can begin resident profiling uh and cs i think is christina stefanu is that right yep and cs is in the column um what was christina
02:05:40 christina stefanu's role on this project um she was helping uh uh linda i see
02:05:51 uh linda i see and you can see that she was given this task of profiling the residence of grenfell what did profiling the residence entail do you remember um i i
02:06:04 um i i i'm not actually familiar with that word profiling but i would imagine that means um basically getting a contact uh uh a number for them
02:06:18 uh uh a number for them what was the purpose of that process do you remember um that's so that um access can be arranged
02:06:25 arranged as and when um work and and survey etc um to arrange access into a
02:06:34 into a uh into their home do you remember whether it involved looking at individual mobility difficulties whether people
02:06:46 mobility difficulties whether people partial were partially sighted any health issues or anything of that nature
02:06:51 nature on an individual by individual basis um not uh not not specifically um as as part of the um
02:07:02 as as part of the um that there'd be an introduction meeting to
02:07:06 to um should the resident want it um to describe the works that are planned to be carried out um if
02:07:17 planned to be carried out um if the resident had any um concerns or if there was any reasons why work couldn't be carried out then uh the you know the
02:07:30 then uh the you know the the resident liaison officer would bring that back to the tmo and there would be a accommodation made of uh
02:07:42 accommodation made of uh the the individual's um uh needs and um that that's how i would um describe that
02:07:54 how i would um describe that right thank you mr blake uh for the time being i've come to the end of my questions um i'm going to ask the chairman for a break now but it may be necessary to come back and
02:08:05 but it may be necessary to come back and for you to come back and ask answer some further questions i just need to check my notes
02:08:09 my notes thank you well mr blake we normally have a short break at this stage even though council think they've asked all the questions a bit of a review sometimes displays that they haven't so we'll break now until 20 past four will
02:08:22 we'll break now until 20 past four will that give you long enough yes that should be enough but if not you can let me know yes thank you um so if you could be ready to come back at 20 past four um we'll resume then and you can go to the usher now if you would please thank
02:08:34 the usher now if you would please thank you
02:08:51 again say 20 past if you need more time just let me know i'm grateful mr chairman thank you
02:31:22 yes would you ask us to blake to come back please
02:31:40 um
02:31:54 mr blake i'm sorry we kept you waiting longer than i suggested i think maybe there's there were more things to sort out than i'd originally thought um but we're ready to go on if you are um
02:32:04 um yes mr chairman you have some more questions i do have some more questions i
02:32:08 i i have prepared to ask i'm also still i am
02:32:11 am told uh by one set of core participants waiting for further questions i'm not sure whether they're follow-up questions or not and i should wait to see them but let me see how i get on i don't have very many
02:32:22 how i get on i don't have very many questions to ask i want to ask you about an email at
02:32:30 h-a-r-3-17538 please
02:32:36 and this is an email from emma kelly at ryden
02:32:42 sent to david hughes sorry sent to the baileys actually but copy to david hughes urgent update grenfell tower windows and emma kelly who's a maintenance
02:32:53 and emma kelly who's a maintenance coordinator as you'll probably know this is uh january 2017 so this is after practical completion by quite a few months says it has been noted that there is a
02:33:05 says it has been noted that there is a large number of defects relating to windows open on our system some of which have been open as long as august this is not acceptable and we are not receiving any response from our chaser email stroke calls
02:33:16 chaser email stroke calls we must ensure that defects are closed out within the target rectification time provided
02:33:21 provided please ensure we're provided with a thorough update by close of play today failure to do this uh will result in the issue being escalated and then there's a list of different flats in grenfell tower
02:33:34 flats in grenfell tower uh do you see that and and some other uh and some descriptions of the outstanding defects my question is were you aware at this
02:33:45 my question is were you aware at this time january 2017 of the poor quality of the windows as expressed by miss kelly in this email
02:33:53 um if she'd sent that to me then um i would be aware um well you're not copied in on the email as i think i pointed out to you yeah in general terms
02:34:06 pointed out to you yeah in general terms were you aware of the poor quality of the windows the subject of this message i'm not um it doesn't appear that i'm i was aware of that
02:34:17 was aware of that um list of defects uh well it doesn't appear from this email i i quite accept that mr blake my question was
02:34:26 was other than this email did you have an awareness from another source that so many of uh of these flats had defects relating to windows which were still open and unresolved
02:34:38 still open and unresolved and had been unresolved since august um well many cases i don't recall right
02:34:46 at the time were you generally concerned about the quality of the installation of the windows
02:34:54 um no
02:34:57 had you had similar experiences on other refurbishments such as that which is identified here in this message when i say you i mean right and generally
02:35:07 generally um it's not unusual for uh window defects
02:35:14 defects to come through on the on the reports
02:35:20 it would be helpful to see what the descriptions are on the report itself but if you if you do have tilt and turn windows
02:35:32 if you do have tilt and turn windows sometimes you can get issues with them not being operated correctly all the mechanisms themselves
02:35:43 sticking or
02:35:46 such so over a period of time you would it wouldn't be unusual for an amount of
02:35:59 defects like those to be reported through the through the defects liability period
02:36:10 i want to ask you about the uh o m manual
02:36:13 manual and the and the h s health and safety file
02:36:17 file uh
02:36:21 can you please be shown a rt406185
02:36:27 now these are the notes of progress meeting number 17 mr blake which which took place on the 17th of november 2015 and we can see that mr madison mr gibson
02:36:39 and we can see that mr madison mr gibson and ms williams were there as were you from ryden and a long list of other people from ryden
02:36:46 ryden do you remember that meeting um not specifically no no can i ask you to turn please to the bottom of page two of this minute and look at item 2.8 and
02:36:57 of this minute and look at item 2.8 and it goes over to the top of page three and it says item 3.2 cdm regulations 2015
02:37:05 2015 am noted the pmn on previous minutes that's a pmn is a post-meeting note i think isn't it um i would i would agree with that yes
02:37:18 um i would i would agree with that yes copied here for completeness pmn under the 2015 regulations if the pd appointment finishes before the end of the works
02:37:25 the works then the principal contractor takes on the pd role this means the principal contractor puts together the h and s file for the client for discussion at the next
02:37:36 the next progress meeting now pd stands for principal designer
02:37:45 did you understand that that was what was meant yes i do yes um do you accept that this was the arrangement identified here that was agreed with the tmo to prepare the health and safety file and then present it completed to the tmo
02:37:58 and then present it completed to the tmo and not simply to provide the o m manuals
02:38:04 no the the agreement um is that the o m manuals would contain the information necessary to be put into the health and safety file for the tmo
02:38:18 for the tmo having inherited the the role of principal designer well let's just look on it was agreed says the note that ryden are not the pd
02:38:29 are not the pd principal designer under the cdm regulations 2015 the tmo as the client had to undertake this role it was further agreed that ryden would be responsible for collating
02:38:40 ryden would be responsible for collating and presenting the h and s file in accordance with the employer's requirements and the pci and present to the p to the tmo
02:38:49 tmo as pd do you accept that that was the arrangement that was agreed with the tmo and i've shown it all to you which is that ryden was to prepare the health and safety file in his east side and present it to the
02:39:01 in his east side and present it to the tmo to
02:39:02 tmo to present the information required for it well it doesn't say that it says presenting the health and safety file
02:39:09 file information in accordance with the employer's requirements if you go back to the bottom of page two we can see it all in its context
02:39:21 um well my understanding is by doing exactly what i described fulfills that responsibility i see so just to be clear when we see
02:39:33 i see so just to be clear when we see the words ryden would be responsible for collating and presenting the ancient s file information exactly in accordance with the employer's requirements it was your understanding that you wouldn't be compiling and
02:39:45 that you wouldn't be compiling and presenting the complete file but only the information to go into it exactly that i see
02:39:58 who was then responsible for completion of the health and safety file if not ryden that's the client has taken that responsibility from the
02:40:10 taken that responsibility from the change of the cdn regulations prior to that it was um artelier's wrong were all group holdings instructed by ryden
02:40:19 ryden to complete the health and safety file itself and complete and provide a complete version to you for passing on to the tmo or only to compile the information to go
02:40:31 or only to compile the information to go into it
02:40:32 into it which is the distinction i think you're drawing based on this document um the um the the brief is to collect the information um
02:40:46 collect the information um for the o m and um
02:40:52 part of the reason for the um putting the two people together the tmo and the compiler um was to agree the exact brief
02:41:02 brief and format of how that information would be
02:41:14 presented mr blake i've got one final question for you and it's a question i i ask some witnesses who come to the inquiry
02:41:23 inquiry we've been through an awful lot of evidence over the last two days and i'm grateful to you for helping me with it looking back on all that evidence and looking back on your involvement in the
02:41:34 looking back on your involvement in the project as a whole is there anything that you would have done differently
02:41:42 um hindsight is a gift that um none of us have
02:41:48 have um i uh
02:41:53 um i uh in the examination it's it's very clear that at a point in time when i believed
02:42:05 at a point in time when i believed the presentation and acceptance of um the the windows and the the cladding designs um
02:42:16 the cladding designs um had been accepted um to the satisfaction of the through the design process and and the submission and the exchange of building
02:42:27 submission and the exchange of building control
02:42:30 i believe this to be um correct and it's it haunts me
02:42:41 it's it haunts me um that it was never um that it wasn't challenged because it was
02:42:48 was um believed to be correct thank you mr blake miss blake i've got no further questions mr chairman no further questions thank you very much mr william well mr
02:43:00 thank you very much mr william well mr blake thank you very much for coming to give your evidence it's been immensely helpful to us to hear what you have to say i'm sorry it's gone on probably longer than you would have wished and longer this afternoon than we
02:43:11 this afternoon than we probably gave you to understand but we are very grateful and uh you're now free to go thank you very much
02:43:31 thank you mr minute uh that's it for the afternoon mr chairman it is and miss grange will take uh two further ride and witnesses tomorrow yes well thank you very much we'll rise down and sit at ten o'clock
02:43:42 we'll rise down and sit at ten o'clock tomorrow thank you thank you
02:44:14 you