Rydon project manager Simon O'Connor gives evidence about the refurbishment project, revealing lack of training, oversight failures, and admitted gaps in ensuring fire safety compliance and quality of workmanship.
00:00:05 yes would you ask mr o'connor to come back please
00:00:25 right mr o'connor ready to go on yep good thank you yes thank you mr chairman mr o'connor uh i was going to go on to a different topic but can i just revisit
00:00:36 topic but can i just revisit something from your evidence this morning about carl stokes can i ask you please to be shown page 111
00:00:43 page 111 line 14 of your evidence this morning line 14 on that page do you see that i asked you
00:00:50 asked you line 12 fire safety as a whole in relation to the building or in relation to the project or both and you say in relation to the project really and then you say he would quite often just turn up on site and would
00:01:02 just turn up on site and would and we would walk the construction site first and then we would go up to various floors and he would quite often pick up you know just little items that he wasn't i won't say not happy with but he would report back to the tmo
00:01:15 with but he would report back to the tmo did you go with him on these visits not always at first i did because i believed it was good to get a relationship but after that it would have been jason or whoever was looking after the areas he was going
00:01:26 was looking after the areas he was going to first of all was that jason north yes i'd like to show you a document which is cst 702
00:01:39 where you'll see carl stokes is fra or rather the part of it that is the record of significant findings and action plan from october 2014
00:01:51 from october 2014 it's a nine page document and it's got manuscript uh in it all over it
00:02:00 can i ask you to look at page nine please and look at the bottom entry
00:02:07 um where you can see identified risk or hazard
00:02:11 hazard the external face of this building is to be overclad the piece of cladding fixed to the external wall at the moment is on timber battens
00:02:20 battens and then somebody has written on it okay fr no timber you see that yes uh
00:02:31 yes uh do you recall having any discussion yourself on site or even off-site but with mr stokes in or before october 2014
00:02:43 in or before october 2014 about the overcladding no but i know what he's referring to when he says timber battens what's he referring to please this was a
00:02:54 what's he referring to please this was a mock-up that was done on the side of the building prior to anything happening so it was done on timber do you know the date when you know that he saw that i don't but it
00:03:05 know that he saw that i don't but it would have been the same day as the council of fielding melon was there and and the planning was that look at the colors and the and the fixing types so that would have been sometime in the summer of 2014 i think yes it would have
00:03:16 summer of 2014 i think yes it would have been
00:03:16 been yes i i i see can you explain okay fr i don't know that's not my writing no i know i just wonder whether it triggers a recollection of the subject matter of
00:03:27 a recollection of the subject matter of a conversation between you and mr stokes
00:03:33 mr stokes no right do you remember ever having a conversation with mr stokes about the overclouding being
00:03:42 being fr fire resistant fire retardant fire rated no
00:03:49 look at the right hand column actions to be taken
00:03:53 be taken i would recommend that the contractor provides and then you can see four questions scope of the works covering how this cladding how will the cladding be fixed to the
00:04:04 how will the cladding be fixed to the building what fixings will be used the fire rating of the cladding and the fixings
00:04:08 fixings the building control officers acceptance of this fixing system and the cladding used now that those questions are the same questions even including
00:04:19 questions even including the typo that miss williams put to you in the email of april 2015 and then again in june 2015 we saw this morning do you want to see that again no no i
00:04:31 do you want to see that again no no i don't remember that i recall it yeah you can't recall dealing you can't recall dealing with it do you remember seeing this report or knowing where she got the
00:04:44 this report or knowing where she got the questions from more generally no but reading this now i can see that she just copy and pasted it
00:04:54 yes can i ask you to look at another document then please cst401284
00:05:11 document then please cst401284 this um is an email and we need to i think to look at the bottom of page one it's an email you won't have seen before but it's between carl stokes and the tmo of the 24th of april 2017.
00:05:27 and the tmo of the 24th of april 2017. so it's long after you left the project and indeed after the project was uh completed and it's from car stokes to janice ray and it's in the context of the forwarding of a letter from the nfb
00:05:39 forwarding of a letter from the nfb external fastbread and it says grenfell was clad
00:05:43 was clad but the cladding complied with the requirements of the building regulations lots of questions asked of ryden's and answers received back from them do you remember
00:05:55 from them do you remember being asked lots of questions about the compliance of the cladding with the requirements of the building regulations no do you recall ever giving would you recall knowing whether anybody
00:06:07 would you recall knowing whether anybody else was asked lots of questions and giving answers
00:06:16 i don't recall that there was lots of questions asked did you receive any questions from mr stokes
00:06:23 stokes about this about anything um not the stick out in my mind no right and that would include about the cladding you don't remember any any
00:06:34 cladding you don't remember any any questions from mr stakes about the clapping
00:06:37 clapping no not that i recall do you know from your knowledge and recollection whether mr stokes dealt with anybody else within ryden
00:06:45 ryden about the overcladding
00:06:50 um he would have no doubt spoken to simon lawrence he would have no doubt spoken to probably daniel osgood but do you i mean you say no doubt i mean are you speculating or do you remember
00:07:01 do you remember that's that's just purely speculation i would i would say probably yes right
00:07:11 to your knowledge and rather than than speculation did anybody from writings give any assurances to carl stokes about the fire safety of the cladding not that i recall no
00:07:24 not that i recall no can i then turn to the topic of sdp plastering and how they came to be selected
00:07:31 selected you i think except that the subcontractor for the interior window reveals package was sd plastering or sdp and they were selected
00:07:40 selected in around may 15 2015. yes okay yeah sorry yes um do you remember that the selection of sdp as the subcontractor for that work
00:07:51 as the subcontractor for that work package occurred during your involvement as project manager yes they probably did they were doing other works on the building as well yes but it occurred during your tenure your your role as
00:08:02 your your role as project manager yes did you check to find out whether sdp were on the approved list we talked about earlier no for the same reasons as we used sdp on most of our projects
00:08:13 on most of our projects so i would assume someone had done that prior to me and prior to them being awarded the project do you know whether they were on the approved list uh i can't categorize say yes but i
00:08:24 uh i can't categorize say yes but i would imagine so right who was responsible for making the decision to retain sdp plastering as subcontractor for this particular work package was it you no
00:08:36 particular work package was it you no who was it it would have been one of the surveyors uh name please um adam marriott zack maynard right okay all right were you
00:08:47 all right were you aware that sd plastering had initially said that they weren't interested in doing the window trimming work um that does really that does ring a bell yes
00:08:56 bell yes yes can i look at a document with you then mr a conor please ryd 3042594
00:09:06 this is an email from adam marriott of ryden
00:09:10 ryden to sdp copy to you of the 29th of may 2015.
00:09:15 2015. morning mark uh do you see that i do uh there are two emails on that page
00:09:23 page in fact um the bottom one is about the acceptance of the element of the works and the top one morning mark please accept this email as confirmation to proceed with the following additional works
00:09:32 works required at the above project window surrounds package to existing residential flats pipe work boxing package adjacent to hiu hallway to existing residential flats blinds and curtains removal and
00:09:44 blinds and curtains removal and reinstating package to existing residential flats and then all for the sum of 152 677 pounds atp subject to 2.5 mcd official variation summary will
00:09:56 mcd official variation summary will follow
00:09:59 this was significantly lower than the sun included in ryden's tender of 474 odd thousand pounds for windows
00:10:10 of 474 odd thousand pounds for windows sills and boards wasn't it well i wasn't aware of the sum right you weren't all right uh did you never see the original tender amount
00:10:21 see the original tender amount broken down into work packages not particularly no i was i wasn't involved in
00:10:25 in finance can i look at har30s 10180 now you weren't i think copied into this
00:10:36 now you weren't i think copied into this document it's an email let's just look at it together it's quite small on the screen thank you it's from ray bailey to zach maynard copy to simon lawrence and and people at harley and also steve
00:10:49 and and people at harley and also steve blake at ryden grenfell internal trimming out and it says hi zach and i'd like you to look at the second last paragraph it says
00:11:00 last paragraph it says whilst this project may be a little simpler
00:11:04 simpler i don't think we can meet your cost plan of 80 000 pounds
00:11:10 and this is about as i say internal trimming out my question is were you aware that ryden had set
00:11:18 had set a budget for the internal fit out of 80 000 pounds no
00:11:25 is it fair to say in general terms that ryden were looking for a low price on the internal window trimmings because harley would be too expensive to carry out that work
00:11:36 out that work i wasn't involved in this so i can't comment on whether they were looking for a cheaper price or not right um leave aside whether hollywood would carry out that work were you aware that uh ryden were
00:11:47 were you aware that uh ryden were looking for the lowest price they could find or a low price they put it that way on the internal window trimmings at all i was aware they were looking at different
00:11:55 different subcontractors which tells me they were probably looking for a lower price yes right
00:12:02 can we go back then to a topic we looked at this morning in brief which was cavity barriers uh can i ask you to look first please at
00:12:12 tm0100-41791 page 265. this is the ryden tmo contract document and this and we see it is a schedule of
00:12:25 and we see it is a schedule of contract information for the project and it lists documents that ryden were provided with my first question to you mr o'connor is did you ever look at this document
00:12:37 did you ever look at this document during your time on the project i don't remember seeing it now right
00:12:43 would it not have been an important document for a project manager to see and understand and have in mind yes probably can you explain why you didn't
00:12:53 didn't i wasn't i don't think it was issued to me
00:12:56 me it was an issue to you presumably the contract was issued to you in the sense that it was made available to you yeah and this would have been part of the contract no yeah i think like i said
00:13:07 contract no yeah i think like i said just this morning i didn't make um an active effort to read the contract no and that would mean you didn't make an active effort to read this schedule either
00:13:16 either yes right
00:13:21 yes right but as as project manager would that not have been your responsibility and in your mind that you intended to carry out to read the contract to read the contract and look for the schedule of contract information
00:13:32 for the schedule of contract information not not as such now this is my first project as project manager right on that score let me ask you you say it was your first project as project manager i appreciate that
00:13:43 manager i appreciate that did anybody at ryden give you any induction or training into what to do as a project manager no so when you were appointed or promoted to project manager
00:13:54 to project manager did anybody give you any guidance about what you should be doing what documents you should be looking at no so you would have left your own devices well i had um steve blake and simon lawrence for
00:14:05 steve blake and simon lawrence for support but there was no um training or you know that sort of thing to say make sure you read this document or make sure you read that document
00:14:16 that document right and this is your first job as project manager ever yes right okay
00:14:26 can i ask you to look at page 269 which is four pages on within the schedule
00:14:34 and look together please at item 170. um this is uh lo1212 spec double zero one structural performance date dated the first of march 2013 23 pages
00:14:47 the first of march 2013 23 pages and i'm going to assume that you wouldn't have read this document and i wonder whether you'd read that one it's a specification produced by curtin's consulting were you familiar with who curtin's consulting were yes
00:14:59 consulting were yes you were and were you aware that they had produced a 23-page specification i believe i had seen the curtains one yes right let's look at this uh it's at a rt
00:15:13 please
00:15:17 and i'd like to go i'll look at the first page actually it's dated the first of march 2013 and it's entitled structural performance specification for the design supply and application of over-cladding systems to
00:15:29 application of over-cladding systems to grenfell tower for studio e so just looking at its first page do you think you saw this at the time i don't recall seeing that okay uh you say you thought you were familiar
00:15:40 uh you say you thought you were familiar with this document um let's see if we can do a bit better okay to page nine please
00:15:44 please i just want to ask you something specific about it um this is under the rubric design top of the page there's the heading under section six and it says this let's
00:15:56 under section six and it says this let's look at it together in designing his overclouding systems the constructor must take full account of the geographical location of these buildings and the climate thereabouts in particular he needs to consider the effects of
00:16:08 consider the effects of and there's a long list of things and then the third from bottom bullet dash says the need for effective fire barriers do you remember seeing this at the time in this document
00:16:20 the time in this document no do you remember at the time knowing that it was important for the contractor to ensure that there were effective fire barriers well i knew there's discussion around
00:16:31 well i knew there's discussion around the fire barriers because i've seen the emails between john hoban of building control harley and i think kyle stokes is probably involved in it as well
00:16:39 as well right what process did you have in place to ensure that your subcontractors which would include harley and studio e would consider the need for effective fire barriers as this document says
00:16:51 this document says sorry can you reword them for me yes did you
00:16:55 you was there any process in place at harley to make sure that the subcontractors harley and studio e thought about effective fire barriers i don't know if there was a process in place but like i said i
00:17:06 said i i saw emails that told me that they were talking about effective fire barriers under certain regulations
00:17:17 now in your statement and i think we saw it earlier and for our note that it's paragraph 13 you say you expected the designs prepared by studio e max fordham and other specialist subcontractors to have been prepared in
00:17:29 subcontractors to have been prepared in line with the building regulations and other safe fire safety requirements the question is this do you accept that it was ryden's ultimate responsibility overall responsibility
00:17:40 overall responsibility for the designs that it passed to the tmo to make sure that the requirements for cavity barriers in the legislation were complied with now yes at the time
00:17:51 were complied with now yes at the time probably not right thank you uh if we look at a document ryd301600
00:18:07 this is an email from jordan edelman at e-brit services of the 21st of august 2014 to adam marriott see that yep um now you not you're not
00:18:20 see that yep um now you not you're not copied in on this but i just want to show the contents to you afternoon adam he says i've been speaking with simon o'connor in regards to the fire protection and fast stopping inquiries for the grenfell
00:18:31 fast stopping inquiries for the grenfell tower regeneration project and simon has advised me to contact yourself in regards to being included on the package inquiries i understand from simon that there may be an intumescent fp
00:18:42 be an intumescent fp treatment requirement for the structural steel and maybe some fire stopping works to follow and wish to note our interest for this package and first of all ebri services who were they
00:18:53 they i don't know okay um do you recall the conversation that mr marriott is relaying to mr edelman in this email
00:19:05 so this is from jordan to adam yes this is from jordan edelman to adam marriott yes so he would have been
00:19:13 been um speaking crudely but he would have been selling his awareness um so he would have got my phone number and gave me a call to try and get on the list for tindering or winning some work
00:19:24 some work yes it's my fault i may have confused you by getting the names the wrong way around this is mr edelman relaying to adam marriott a conversation that he mr edelman has had with you let me repeat my question because i have
00:19:36 let me repeat my question because i have unfortunately confused you with it do you remember having a conversation with jordan edelman about the fire protection of fire stopping inquiries no right do you remember whether you discussed
00:19:48 discussed uh intumescent fp treatment with him i don't know what that is so i know right
00:19:56 because he says i understand from simon that there may be an intumescent fp treatment requirement for the structural steel
00:20:04 steel but you say you don't recall the conversation and you don't know what an interesting fp treatment is no have you can you explain how mr edelman um came to write this in an email to mr
00:20:16 um came to write this in an email to mr marriott
00:20:17 marriott unless you had said what he says there i can't explain that i mean he doesn't use my second name in that either well he does it he does at the top of the email he says i've been speaking with simon o'connor which is you
00:20:31 no i don't know how he would come about that right yes i've got that from from somewhere but it's not something that brings the bell to me and i don't think i know what fp treatment is now right did mr marriott who receives this email
00:20:44 did mr marriott who receives this email ever come to you and and say that you he understood that you and mr edelman had had a conversation either about fire stopping or about intumescent fp treatments not that i
00:20:55 intumescent fp treatments not that i recall
00:20:56 recall did do you remember having uh any conversation with mr edelman of e brit no
00:21:06 can i ask you to look at ryd3018724
00:21:14 please
00:21:24 uh this is an email and i'd like just to look at the bottom email on page one dated the 24th of september 2014 from you mr o'connor to neil crawford subject building
00:21:37 to neil crawford subject building control
00:21:40 and you say their morning neil following an fra
00:21:43 an fra yesterday on grenfell tower the assessor asked if the lfb had been issued a copy of the building control application form for comment can you please advise if they were issued a copy you see that
00:21:55 issued a copy you see that i do and then now let's look at the top email together where neil crawford comes back to you a little bit later the same day
00:22:02 same day 24th of september 2014 and a copy to simon lawrence and he says hi simon i'm not aware if the lfb have been given a copy of the building control application for comment i know that paul hansen is
00:22:14 for comment i know that paul hansen is the rbkc building control fire officer and he prefers to escalate any fire issues he's unsure about to the lfb via his contacts i'm sending out a pack of information today to john hogan has agreed with simon lawrence after yesterday's meeting
00:22:27 simon lawrence after yesterday's meeting and then he says i spoke to john hoban yesterday afternoon whilst on the academy site and mentioned grenfell in passing
00:22:32 passing he mentioned he's away for three weeks uh
00:22:36 uh three weeks holiday as of the 9th of october to um as of the 9th of october dot dot dot did you ever follow up this conversation with mr lawrence or mr
00:22:48 this conversation with mr lawrence or mr crawford
00:22:51 i don't believe so i don't i can't recall but i don't believe so
00:23:00 right did you ever follow up with the
00:23:06 lfb um i don't recall i know i was we had the fire brigade down on site quite often but um i don't recall if it was regarding
00:23:17 um i don't recall if it was regarding this
00:23:20 right
00:23:26 can you look please at ryd30 is one eight nine six three
00:23:33 let's look together at uh the email at the top of page one on that page which is an email from john hoban of the 29th of september 2014
00:23:43 2014 to you mr o'connor copy to simon to simon lawrence you see that and he says dear simon uh the building regulations
00:23:54 dear simon uh the building regulations 2010 has amended grenfell tower concerning our brief discussion this morning relating to the grenfell tower project
00:24:01 project please find detail below the last emails that i have in my possession related to building regulation matters for your information
00:24:09 so it looks as if you did have a brief conversation on the 29th of september 2014 with mr hoban at rbc bkc building control looks from this
00:24:20 bkc building control looks from this i don't recall that conversation right
00:24:26 do you recall any conversation around this time with mr hoban on the subject that he is talking about not specifically i mean
00:24:37 specifically i mean six years ago so no not not specifically
00:24:42 if we look at the subject forward grenfell tower grenfell road refurbishment fire strategy p2 does that trigger a recollection about what you might have discussed with mr hogan at that time so that
00:24:53 that greenville road [Music]
00:24:59 the only thing i can think and i don't know if it's relevant or not is we was using the uh fire brigade service road to the right-hand side of the tower um for storage et cetera um i may have
00:25:10 um for storage et cetera um i may have asked him
00:25:12 asked him his thoughts on that but i'd already spoke to the fibregate regarding that so i don't know
00:25:29 right can you ask can you be can you please turn sorry to
00:25:40 exo401430
00:25:45 this is an email chain between employees of ryden xover studioe and harley and it's a fairly long email discussion
00:25:57 and it's a fairly long email discussion on the 18th of september 2014. can i just ask you to look with me please at the bottom of page one it goes over the page to page two and
00:26:08 it goes over the page to page two and it's an email from daniel ankita jones on the 18th of september to neil crawford copy to simon lawrence and to you mr o'connor and also to kevin lam
00:26:19 lam who was working with harley at the time and the subject is cavity fire barriers do you see that i do um it says neil thank you for your response the insulation is class naught therefore
00:26:30 the insulation is class naught therefore after reading the correspondence below i believe the fire barrier in these locations will not be necessary and then he goes on to say can you confirm that this is acceptable kind regards daniel axel jones
00:26:45 when you got this email do you remember looking at it and reading it i think these are the emails i was referring to earlier yes so the answer to my question is yes you did
00:26:56 you did yes yes you saw his reference to class naught
00:27:00 naught and you could see it there if we just flip back to the bottom of page one of the email string what was your understanding about what he meant the insulation is class north i would be able to tell you at that time
00:27:13 i would be able to tell you at that time these were just emails that i was ceced into so i was just aware there was talk about
00:27:18 about cavity barriers i wouldn't have been scrutinizing emails why were you copied into these emails do you think
00:27:25 you think because i was project manager on site right at the time
00:27:31 did you think that because you were you were project manager on site and you had been copied in on these it was important for you to understand what was being said um in reflection probably yes
00:27:43 um in reflection probably yes but at the time i was just cc'd in so it was just for information right so you were again a spectator on these emails rather than a participant in the detailed information in general terms in general terms
00:27:56 in general terms in general terms uh did you have any well how do you let me try this way have you had you heard of the expression class naught yes in painting terms can you just explain a bit further what that means
00:28:08 explain a bit further what that means um i i just knew there was a class a class o
00:28:11 class o paint that um was put in i think it was fire escapes right what did that what did class o mean
00:28:19 mean um what did it signify to you from memory i think it was something to be spread aflame something to do with the spread of flame back that i'm talking historically back
00:28:31 back that i'm talking historically back then
00:28:31 then yes absolutely i understand that and i'm certainly not going to stand here and not
00:28:35 not examine you about your understanding of class naught now but at that time your understanding was that it was something to do with the spread of flame can you tell us where that understanding came from
00:28:46 came from just i don't know it's just a painting really more than anything right
00:28:54 did the statement the insulationist class naught concern you at the time no you didn't have cause to query it now
00:29:06 you didn't have cause to query it now like i say i was a participant in these conversations there were people that actually
00:29:09 actually do this for a living and qualify to do this right so i was i was a just a participant i was just you know
00:29:16 you know seeing the email trail go through yes didn't in fact to be honest it gave me a little bit of them comfort that they were talking about fire bricks and cavity barriers and stuff like that right so
00:29:28 stuff like that right so did you understand the relevance of that statement
00:29:31 statement the insulation is class naught probably not completely known
00:29:37 you say it gave you comfort what sort of comfort did it give you well i i knew they were talking about fire um and their specialists so it's to me that's positive okay so
00:29:49 to me that's positive okay so are you saying that that when he said the insulation is class naught that was a positive and i was just saying the whole conversation to me was positive there was there was an actual conversation asking people's opinions specialist opinions
00:30:01 opinions specialist opinions about what they thought about their their
00:30:04 their knowledge right
00:30:11 did mr anthony jones's reference to the insulation as class naught give you any understanding comfort feeling about the appropriateness of the insulation
00:30:22 appropriateness of the insulation i don't i don't think i probably read this in full um i was just aware there was a conversation going on fair enough and now can i ask you to turn to sea three zeroes one one seven three zero
00:30:38 this is an email chain between neil crawford and terry ashton same day 18th of september 2014 in which you are also copied and if we look at the bottom of
00:30:49 look at the bottom of page one terry ashton at xova and i say you're copied in you're copied in on the next one up to be fair to you so let me just show you the scheme
00:31:00 so let me just show you the scheme and what the email at the bottom of page one is an email from mr ashton to mr crawford
00:31:05 crawford and then mr crawford thanks uh terry ashton the same day and then addresses a question to daniel uncle jones of harley but he copies in
00:31:16 uncle jones of harley but he copies in simon lawrence and you and you see that yes so although you don't get the email from mr ashton to mr crawford you do get mr crawford's response
00:31:24 response so let's just take it in stages he says in the second email neil a material this is ashton material which has a class naught rating is not necessarily non-combustible although the reverse is
00:31:35 non-combustible although the reverse is invariably true some class naught products will burn when exposed to a fully developed fire in any case you need to prevent fire spread from one flat to the flat above as i stated in my earlier email
00:31:46 as i stated in my earlier email what isn't clear from the information to hand is whether or not there is a continuous cavity top to bottom in any part of the cladding apart from around the column casings irrespective of the type of insulation and then the response comes back and
00:31:58 and then the response comes back and it's
00:31:59 it's uh you can see what he says daniel can you confirm your position in relation to terry's comment below regarding combustibility and continuous cavity paths
00:32:06 paths and then there's something about uh kac and mr hogan there which i don't think i need
00:32:10 need to put to you at this point at least um can i just ask you uh did you when you got this email
00:32:18 email uh from mr crawford by way of copy did you look at the email from mr ashton to mr crawford to which this was a response i i can't be sure would have been your
00:32:30 i i can't be sure would have been your habit to do so at the time well you got an email like this would you look down the chain to see what the conversation was about um there was such large quantity of email
00:32:41 email traffic that i can't honestly say yes i would go through every single trail um and you know so i would say no probably not do you have any recollection of
00:32:55 recollection of being told that a material which has a class naught rating is not necessarily non-combustible no
00:33:05 did it alert you to the fact that whether or not the insulation product was class naught there was that was something to consider
00:33:16 there was that was something to consider so far as
00:33:17 so far as safe youth on grenfell tower was concerned
00:33:20 concerned well i think like i said this morning my my assumption was the specialist that designed this had taken all this into account um i'm not qualified to do that after you receive that email what do you
00:33:32 after you receive that email what do you know whether you or anybody else at ryden undertook any investigations to satisfy yourself or ryden that the insulation was compliant with the building regulations
00:33:43 building regulations not me personally but i know there was more email traffic on this subject wasn't there yes and i'm just asking for your recollection but leave aside the emails which we can read do you recall any internal discussion about
00:33:55 internal discussion about investigations into whether or not this product should be used
00:34:05 can i ask you then please to turn or be shown ex0401433
00:34:14 this is an email the following year in the march of 2015 in the context of a long email chain
00:34:26 between uh rbkc building control siderise harley studio e and ryden and terry ashton and x over
00:34:38 and ryden and terry ashton and x over and you don't see all of these but you see i think some of these um this particular one at page one is copied to you sec at the lower part of the page
00:34:50 of the page uh in fact both emails are and there's an email from john hogan of the 30th of march 2015 uh to uh various recipients including you you see that i do subject grenfell
00:35:02 you you see that i do subject grenfell tower fire stopping uh and this is from john hoban at rbkc as you can see and it says building regulations 2010 grenfell tower please find detail below a copy of an
00:35:13 please find detail below a copy of an email sent to various persons on the 20th of march concerning the topic of relating fast stopping of the compartment floors to the building i would advise you that it's my interpretation of diagram 33 of approved document b that is the detail between
00:35:25 document b that is the detail between the cop
00:35:26 the cop is that the detail between compartment floors and external cladding is not a cavity barrier therefore it must be fast stopped to at least the standard of the existing compartment floor
00:35:34 floor 120 minutes therefore the methods described in clause 9.13 would not be appropriate in this particular case
00:35:42 and then you can see at the top uh ricky k who's the national facade manager at siderise
00:35:48 siderise uh responds to john hoban and harley and neil crawford at studio e and also to you
00:35:55 to you as a copy as well as mr ashton and he says
00:35:59 says can can somebody forward over a drawing the build up of the cladding so that my technical officer can evaluate and forward an official response with the siderise product specification
00:36:10 specification do you remember whether you took any steps to ensure that such a drawing was sent
00:36:15 sent i wouldn't have taken steps do you know whether any steps were taken to ensure that such a drawing was sent whether it was you or anybody else i would expect harley to have responded to that do you know whether
00:36:26 responded to that do you know whether they did i don't know if they did can i ask you to look at ryd3037449
00:36:48 and let's look at the uh top email i think you've got the one below it this is from simon lawrence to chris mort at siderise
00:37:01 mort at siderise and it provokes a response from ben bailey and you're copied in on that response at the top of the page 30th of march 2015 and the request from ben bailey is simon
00:37:13 and the request from ben bailey is simon is there a building fire strategy document and some information on internal finishes that you can send over for me to pass on to siderise was there a building fire strategy
00:37:24 was there a building fire strategy document that you were aware of which could have been passed on i don't recall
00:37:30 recall um i wouldn't have responded to anybody i was just ceasing into it so you know i wouldn't have actually right we we can see that there is also a reply to this from simon lawrence
00:37:43 a reply to this from simon lawrence that's the 31st of march the next day and it's at
00:37:49 four seven ryd3037478 page one please he answers the question and he says morning ben do you see that yep
00:37:59 yep uh and he says morning ben yes there is but it only relates to the bottom four levels where we are constructing new i'll read it all to you as we are constructing you the fire ratings are in
00:38:10 constructing you the fire ratings are in line with the current regs prove document b anything above that is existing and there is no record showing what fire rating the slabs and walls internal and external
00:38:18 external were constructed too and the building was originally built back in 1974 we know that it's unlikely that the party walls etc would be in line with current regulations however this can't be proved that extensive surveys and specialist
00:38:29 extensive surveys and specialist analysis
00:38:30 analysis unfortunately that's what you get with refurb because we can't prove otherwise the building control officers will revert
00:38:35 revert to current regs on a better to be safe and sorry approach now um you saw this document as a copy mr lawrence gave some evidence to the
00:38:47 mr lawrence gave some evidence to the inquiry
00:38:48 inquiry um this week on the 20th of july 2020 on the basis of his understanding where he says in this email it only relates
00:38:58 relates to the bottom four levels which we are constructing new the building fire strategy document only relates to the bottom four levels which we're constructing new and he told the inquiry that on reflecting on the documents
00:39:11 reflecting on the documents he thinks he he now thinks he misunderstood at the time what he was being asked for and he thinks that he was referring to the fire strategy drawings from studio e
00:39:22 the fire strategy drawings from studio e uh and that's why he thinks that as he told us he answered incorrectly and just for our own internal reference that's page 103 at line 16 to 21 of day 23.
00:39:35 to 21 of day 23. i'm interested in your understanding mr o'connor what was your understanding of mr lawrence's email back to ben bailey when he said that the fire strategy only related to
00:39:47 that the fire strategy only related to the bottom floor levels
00:39:50 i don't i i couldn't be sure um unless he was referring to the um fire risk system we did on the bottom four floors
00:40:00 did you have a view at the time at all about whether mr lawrence was right or wrong
00:40:03 wrong when he said that the fire building fire strategy document related only to the bottom four levels i think i think i've made it quite clear even on the day i i don't have that extensive knowledge of
00:40:14 i don't have that extensive knowledge of whether it just includes the bottom four floors or the entire building right so so right very well so you can't comment
00:40:21 comment and help us as to whether you had a different view from mr lawrence about about what this document covered no i can't
00:40:29 can't all right now
00:40:34 it appears that uh siderise say that they asked harley for this document but never got
00:40:40 never got it and that the fire strategy was never actually
00:40:44 actually provided to siderise do you have a recollection of whether you or simon lawrence sent the fire strategy to harley in order to give to siderise as
00:40:53 as cider eyes had asked
00:40:56 i don't recall i don't think so i don't think i would have done right i can't comment for simon okay well we know that we are told that siderez didn't get it can you think of any reason that you
00:41:07 can you think of any reason that you would be aware of why cider eyes never got the fire strategy document they were after
00:41:13 after no can i ask you then
00:41:19 to look at
00:41:26 ryd3039964 turning away from the discussion about the strategy document and onto a slightly different aspect of the same
00:41:38 slightly different aspect of the same topic this is an email from simon lawrence
00:41:41 lawrence to daniel osgood copied to you mr o'connor of the 27th of april 2015. subject is grenfell harley cladding and he says morning danny i understand
00:41:53 and he says morning danny i understand you've landed at grenfell okay this morning and are getting your head around harley's facade package in the cladding i have filed all the information that we have drawing and material and the following location and then there's a long
00:42:06 fining location just out of interest and in light of your evidence this morning about
00:42:11 about um about management systems can you describe what this this is this drive m maintenance projects jobs currently that's the rms that is the oreo oh that's the rms right i see okay
00:42:23 i see okay i'm sure it'll take a few days or so to get to grips with it so happy reading please pay particular attention to the fire break spec and insulation guy to ensure that they install correctly
00:42:32 correctly before any building control inspection i'm just
00:42:35 i'm just interested in that last sentence please pay particular attention to the fire break spec and insulation guide do you know what the fire break spec and insulation guide
00:42:46 the fire break spec and insulation guide was uh that mr lawrence was referring to i would imagine it'd be harley's spec because it's got harley facades at the end of the uh the strap line of the rms right
00:43:01 you imagine it let me just see if we can nail this down then there are two documents perhaps we should look at the first is s i l five zeros two two eight please
00:43:21 this is a sidearise document uh siderise rh and rv cavity barriers for use in the external envelope or fabric of buildings was this
00:43:32 envelope or fabric of buildings was this the firebreak spec that you saw or that was sent i i can't recall let's look at cel
00:43:43 i can't recall let's look at cel 6013
00:43:52 was this the insulation guide that was referred to in the email
00:44:00 i can't recall sorry have you ever seen this document before i don't recall seeing it back then though right you've seen it since have you
00:44:08 you um no i've seen the other one since i see have you seen this one since i don't recall seeing this now okay
00:44:15 going back to the email if we can please
00:44:20 ryd3039964
00:44:26 you were copied in on this email did you yourself take any steps to understand what
00:44:31 what the documents were to which mr lawrence was referring when he said fire breaks spec
00:44:35 spec and insulation guide i i may well have done but i don't i can't sorry i definitely did right what steps did you take to ensure that mr lawrence's instructions were carried
00:44:46 mr lawrence's instructions were carried out
00:44:48 out um i probably had a bit of a meeting with danny okay well daniel was good sorry
00:44:55 what steps did you take to ensure that in general terms cavity barriers were correctly positioned and installed within the rain screen facade that goes back to our inspection procedures that i spoke about this
00:45:06 procedures that i spoke about this morning whereas here we go for drawing and inspect the cavity barriers installed prior to building control being invited to see them
00:45:14 them right well let's just turn then to the topic of
00:45:17 topic of installation uh which you you're referring to and follow that up can i ask you to look at something you've not seen before this inquiry perhaps which is the report
00:45:28 this inquiry perhaps which is the report of dr
00:45:28 of dr lane who is one of the inquiries experts and this is blar
00:45:35 703
00:45:39 at page 38 and this is i should just tell you
00:45:42 tell you dr lane's report to the inquiry of the 12th of april 2018 section 8 and i'd just like to look at a diagram with you it figure 8.39 on page 38.
00:45:59 and it's in paragraph 8.9.34
00:46:05 and this is uh a a a diagram showing the cavity barriers specified for the facade compared with the as built drawing
00:46:21 did you ever attempt to compare the location of the horizontal cavity barriers
00:46:27 barriers which you can see there on the right hand side in the in the diagram with the location sorry the horizontal cavity barriers which you can see there
00:46:38 which you can see there contained in the as built drawings with the location of the cavity barriers as actually installed not personally probably not
00:46:50 did you ever record the results of your installation inspections specifically anywhere relation to cavity barriers i wouldn't have done the inspections it would have been the external manager daniel right did mr
00:47:02 the external manager daniel right did mr osgood record the results of his inspections in relation to the cavity barriers to make sure that the installation com complied with or followed the design drawings i would imagine so
00:47:14 the design drawings i would imagine so yes and so would the clarker works and building control for that matter if cavity barriers were placed in different locations
00:47:23 locations from those shown on the design drawings do you agree that that would constitute defective workmanship yes and it would be defective workmanship which ryden through its on-site team would be
00:47:35 through its on-site team would be responsible for identifying and ensuring was rectified yes as well as the building control on everybody else well i'm not asking about them i'm asking about ryden yes what about if a cavity barrier was
00:47:49 yes what about if a cavity barrier was installed the wrong way round in other words upside down i would expect them to notice that and what if about a horizontal cavity barrier was installed in a vertical position
00:48:00 position again i would expect to notice that right and would you accept again that ryden was ultimately responsible for identifying and rectifying any of those kinds of problems yes did you ever
00:48:11 yes did you ever were you ever alerted to any concerns regarding the location of the cavity barriers
00:48:16 barriers by anybody the location of them yes not that i'm aware of now were you ever aware of any concerns regarding the workmanship in relation to the installation of cavity barriers
00:48:28 installation of cavity barriers i think there was an email from me to harley
00:48:32 harley where i think they were making comments of something being in the wrong way around
00:48:35 around that was with regard to water ingress and not cavity barriers though
00:48:42 can we look at page 32 and look at figure 8
00:48:45 figure 8 34 please that's back six pages or so in the same document this is a photograph showing insulation of fixed to column
00:48:56 showing insulation of fixed to column and rain screen cladding brackets
00:49:01 and uh dr lane has inserted some comments in boxes there yep
00:49:08 yep you can see those this shows cavities which were unfilled where they meet the cavity barriers doesn't it it does and if you now move to page 40 and look at figure 8.42
00:49:20 at figure 8.42 please page 40 8.42 we can see that here a junction of a column and a spandrel horizontal cavity barrier
00:49:32 barrier and that shows just looking at the picture that the cavity barrier was poorly fitted to the exterior of flat in this case flat 12. do you accept that you see do you agree with that i can see
00:49:43 you see do you agree with that i can see that yes did you ever consider that cavities were created where the precast concrete intersected with the cavity barrier
00:49:51 barrier because of ridges in the precast concrete and we can see the ridges there in the column i wasn't actually on the project when any of the columns were completed uh no but did you ever consider
00:50:03 uh no but did you ever consider during your time on the project that there would be cavities where the edges of the cavity barriers would have met the the columns because
00:50:15 would have met the the columns because there were ridges vertical ridges or trenches or grooves if you like in the columns no because like i said this section of work wasn't it was not even started when i left
00:50:26 it was not even started when i left didn't you realize that the cavities would not be filled by the cavity barriers at least in those locations yeah no and like i say i would expect specialists to pick that up not not me
00:50:38 specialists to pick that up not not me um
00:50:38 um and i think if we was looking at it maybe i would have seen it but i wasn't there
00:50:43 there did looking at figure 842
00:50:49 did you ever observe any workmanship like that during the time when you inspected i can't see it sorry
00:50:56 you can't see 8.42 uh it should still be on the screen uh it's figure 8.42 oh sorry i was looking at the numbers on the side i'm sorry sorry no figure four two
00:51:07 i'm sorry sorry no figure four two junction of column expandable horizontal cavity bar it says poorly fitting at edges my question is i'll ask it again did you ever observe any workmanship like that um not that i recall now
00:51:22 um not that i recall now if you had done would you have appreciated that this was that this presented a problem and asked for it to be rectified
00:51:32 i'd like to say yes um uh another example can you go to page 43 and look please with me at figure 8.46
00:51:46 and here we have a photograph of a horizontal column cavity barrier showing roughly cut rear faces and roughly cut edges you see that i do
00:52:00 and roughly cut edges you see that i do do you agree that that shows poor work poor cutting leaving those sort of edges in that condition um it certainly exposes the grooves or ridges
00:52:11 ridges to which you referred to earlier
00:52:16 and if you look at the photograph down uh dr lane says this quality of preparation led to a poor fit when installed as shown in figure 8.47 and and if we look at 847
00:52:30 and and if we look at 847 closely mr economy you can see how uh the horizontal cavity barrier fitted very poorly can you see that she explains how in detail i can uh d do you agree that these are
00:52:42 uh d do you agree that these are significant workmanship issues um yes i suppose yeah and that they happened on your watch it
00:52:53 and that they happened on your watch it didn't happen my watch so i wasn't there
00:52:56 so this happened after your time is that right there wasn't there was nothing on the columns because the masked plums were too close okay
00:53:07 in his witness statement ben bailey of harley said that he was shocked by the photographs in in these in this report are you shocked yes
00:53:17 yes do you know and i know you you say you weren't there at the time but can you explain how shockingly poor workmanship was allowed to happen unchecked can you give us an insight into that i can't because i wasn't there so i can't
00:53:29 can't because i wasn't there so i can't comment on what was going on when i wasn't present is this kind of workmanship something that you would have expected ryden's quality assurance and inspection regime to have picked up yes
00:53:42 to have picked up yes are you aware of any defects in that process
00:53:46 process during your time which would explain why this kind of quality of workmanship wasn't picked up not aware of no [Applause]
00:54:03 can i ask you to go to ryd
00:54:07 eight two seven three three please this is an inspection site inspection report
00:54:17 uh created by john rohn and partners they're the clerk of works aren't they yes and it's dated the 16th of june 2015 and while you were still
00:54:28 of june 2015 and while you were still engaged on the project as project manager yes let's uh look at the bottom of page one under site review site inspection log
00:54:42 all right can you see it says uh ryden indicated at site meeting today
00:54:54 uh ryden indicated at site meeting today they are 12 weeks behind on the contract program
00:54:57 program at the site meeting a recovery program was issued and this will according to accordingly to ryden's pull back the lost time to enable the contract to finish on time 23rd of october 2015.
00:55:10 do you do you remember that as a fact at that stage you were very behind on the project
00:55:15 project well i think i said earlier and it was before this we were nine weeks behind so it
00:55:19 it kind of makes sense from honest yes i see we wasn't pulling time back it was it was moving out if anything yeah and just
00:55:27 just continuing in that box a few lines down it says ryden's are progressing with the tender detail of the new of the top roof new cladding details and panels are being procured again is that
00:55:39 being procured again is that the panels is the better reference to the acm panels at that stage
00:55:47 that sounds to me like it's talking about the crown right i think it doesn't say crown but reading it top roof um the only thing was on the roof was the
00:55:58 the only thing was on the roof was the crown yes i follow can we turn the to the to the next page of this page two please
00:56:09 and uh four-fifths of the way down the page you'll see a heading review site inspection log building control no last building control site visit was the same as before friday 15
00:56:20 the same as before friday 15 may 2015 the only observation was the further details of the cladding fire breaks were required riding to confirm if they have done this i just want to ask you about those few
00:56:31 i just want to ask you about those few last words they're writing to confirm if they have done this do you do you agree that this was ryden's responsibility um that further details of the cladding fire breaks were
00:56:42 fire breaks were required it would be responsibility to get it and pass it on yes right and within ryden it would have been your responsibility yes minor simon's yes but as pro as project
00:56:54 minor simon's yes but as pro as project manager
00:56:55 manager you would have had that within your remit
00:57:00 remit possibly um would you say possibly you don't sound very sure i don't think it well yeah it would be me or simon were you sure about what was in your remit mr o'connor yes so why are you not sure when
00:57:13 yes so why are you not sure when answering my question as to whether or not
00:57:16 not it fell within your remit to obtain further details of the cladding fire breaks um i don't know uh okay um
00:57:27 i don't know uh okay um you know for me it's asking for further details
00:57:31 details um i possibly would have asked someone else for further details to pass them on forgive me for making this observation but i do feel i need to ask you about it you don't sound as if you were terribly
00:57:42 you don't sound as if you were terribly sure about where your job ended and simon lawrence's began is that a fair comment um i don't think it's fair it was six years ago and then you're asking me to recollect a sentence in a document
00:57:54 to recollect a sentence in a document there's thousands of documents i'm trying my best to be honest and just say it would have been myself or simon lawrence like i can't categorically say i did it
00:58:02 i did it and i can't get cat god i didn't do it i understand i was just asking a question about how much certainty you had about the the ambit you know the the edges of
00:58:13 the the ambit you know the the edges of your remit and where what you were responsible for and what you weren't responsible for yeah i i think our you know simon would quite often take over on things like this um
00:58:26 do you remember whether you took any steps to action this in other words to give the confirmation that the clerk of works had noted here i think i've already said i i i don't
00:58:38 i think i've already said i i i don't can i ask you then to turn to ryd3089251
00:58:49 can i ask you then to turn to ryd3089251 this is an email date of the 19th of june 2015. so a few days later and it helped me with this because i think we can see what happens here you in the second
00:59:02 see what happens here you in the second email there sata mr osgood uh subject site inspection and it looks as if you attach a report morning danny can you please
00:59:15 a report morning danny can you please respond to the comment about fire breaks and you don't copy mr lawrence in and then he responds to you the same day
00:59:26 and then he responds to you the same day simon all queries were concerning the fire break were addressed and closed out building control of stated they do not need to return until we begin to hang panels
00:59:38 is that what happened with the request yeah quite possibly yeah well yes it is you can see it is yes is that where it was left do you think
00:59:49 is that where it was left do you think yeah if i'm being told it's it's it's closed out and building control don't raise it again then yes right
00:59:57 can you explain to us why you passed this request on to danny osgood because danny was the external manager right
01:00:07 when he came back to you on the 19th of june were you satisfied with his response
01:00:13 yes
01:00:18 did you want to know did you not not sorry did you not want to know from him when the fire breaks questions had been addressed and closed out and how um i would probably had a
01:00:30 and how um i would probably had a conversation he was sitting with me two meters away so i probably had a conversation rather than an email which in hindsight would have been much better
01:00:44 do you know why the clerk of works thought that there was still outstanding questions when in fact according to mr osgood they weren't in relation to fire breaks no
01:00:56 in relation to fire breaks no now we can see that mr osgood said building control has stated that they do not need to return until we begin to hang panels now this is obviously quite close to the
01:01:07 now this is obviously quite close to the time you left ryden but do you know were you involved in building controls returned to site or was that after your time
01:01:14 time i think that was after my time to be honest all right now i want to turn to a slightly different
01:01:20 different topic which is the cladding installation rams uh can you look please at right how are you getting on generally because uh quite well this is a very short topic
01:01:33 uh quite well this is a very short topic so i i think there are a lot of quite short topics but we're getting on pretty well i'm happy to take a break now if you want to well we've been running another we would normally run for another hour
01:01:45 normally run for another hour okay well let's um i'm happy to take a break now yes now if i say quad for now is that going to be put you in difficulty no i don't think so
01:01:54 so that's what we'll do then we'll have another break mr connor excellent um we'll come back at quarter past three if you go to the action now um please don't talk to anyone about your evidence yes that works thank you thank
01:02:05 evidence yes that works thank you thank you very
01:02:05 you very much
01:02:07 much [Applause]
01:02:18 right 315 then please
01:02:21 [Applause]
01:16:55 yes would you ask mr o'connor to come back please
01:17:14 so right mr o'connor yep very good yes thank you mr chairman uh mr o'connor can i ask you a question about your job description when you have promoted a site uh to
01:17:27 when you have promoted a site uh to project manager when you were given that role at ryden were you ever given a written job job description no not that recall did anybody else or did anybody i should say sit you down
01:17:39 did anybody i should say sit you down and say right simon this is your job description no right can i ask you to look at
01:17:48 ryd3044094 and i want to ask you about the cladding installation rams
01:17:57 the risk assessment method statement uh this is an email ben bailey to daniel osgood 18th of june 2015
01:18:05 2015 copy to you mr o'connor and there are a couple of attachments one of which as is clear from the text of the email says r-a-m-s for the column cladding
01:18:16 says r-a-m-s for the column cladding installation attached to your file stroke comment do you remember receiving that
01:18:24 i i did obviously but no i don't remember let's look at the attachment ryd30 is 44095
01:18:36 can i ask you to turn to page one to see it first of all it's a harley document method statement installing column cladding project manager ben bailey siteform and mark osborne brackets taft brackets
01:18:49 mark osborne brackets taft brackets and at the bottom of page one it says this method statement relates to the installation of the vertical column cladding panels on the project does that trigger a recollection by
01:19:00 does that trigger a recollection by showing you that first page of this document
01:19:04 i can't see what you've just read sorry what
01:19:09 what uh well um can you see the first page of it
01:19:13 it yes yes i just read to you uh the project manager ben bailey middle of the page site foreman mark osborne taft and at the bottom of page one this method statement relates to the installation of the vertical column
01:19:24 installation of the vertical column cladding panels on the project sorry yeah yes ma'am just does my showing you this first page of this document now trigger a recollection about it right page nine uh page three please and
01:19:35 right page nine uh page three please and i'd like to look at item nine to ten with you uh item nine says when all the brackets have been installed on the cladding rails operators will install the vertical fire breaks in the same position
01:19:46 breaks in the same position as the internal party walls marked up drawing
01:19:49 drawing attached making sure that the joints are butted tightly together and the joints taped with adhesive back foil o-tape joints against existing concrete should be sealed with suitable intumescent
01:20:00 be sealed with suitable intumescent mastic
01:20:01 mastic and then it goes on ten operators will then fit the 100 millimeter thick insulation around the brackets and fire breaks
01:20:07 breaks taping joints with a class o or class naught adhesive foil tape where necessary
01:20:13 necessary um did you take any steps to supervise subcontractors during your time as project manager to ensure that the cladding was fitted as per this rams this is the rams
01:20:26 rams this is the rams for the uh for the vertical columns yes i wasn't on site but there any works on the vertical columns uh we can see that the date of this document and perhaps i should have shown you that
01:20:38 perhaps i should have shown you that was was during your time it's dated the 18th of june 2015 so it was produced during your time and i it was sent to you
01:20:49 i it was sent to you and my question i'll ask it again is did you take any steps uh to uh well let me try it a different way did you take any any steps to prepare yourself to make
01:21:00 any steps to prepare yourself to make sure that subcontractors complied with this
01:21:04 this not at the time no we would have done when the when the work was going ahead
01:21:10 when you left the project who did you hand over to simon lawrence did you hand him this document
01:21:18 document and ask him to carry on with it and make sure that installers were supervised to make sure that they complied with items nine and ten
01:21:29 complied with items nine and ten that i've shown you not particularly but that would that would be the norm to make sure that the people are complying with their rams right can i ask you to look at the last page of this document page five
01:21:40 document page five this is where it says that the subcontractors are asked to sign and uh confirm they've read and understood the instructions and safety information during your time on the project did that happen to this document
01:21:52 happen to this document yes i wouldn't imagine so now right [Applause] um i want to ask you one or two
01:22:04 um i want to ask you one or two questions about workmanship please
01:22:08 can you please go to ryd3027752
01:22:18 and this is an email to you from claire williams
01:22:21 williams and a few others concerning some workmanship issues at grenfell tower and it's dated the 15th of january 2015 is also sent to jason north and it's copy to simon lawrence and siobhan
01:22:32 copy to simon lawrence and siobhan rumble and janice jones at the tmo cladding fixing stopping speed people sleeping two elevations reporting and she
01:22:44 and she says to you simon as my voicemail of this morning two complaints from generally reliable residents flat 56 and 31 please let me know what we're doing about this as we need to put up a
01:22:56 doing about this as we need to put up a notice in the communal areas to show we are addressing this i've copied the in the housing offices they will be taking calls too and then there is a capitalized message hello claire which she's passing
01:23:08 message hello claire which she's passing on
01:23:09 on from the occupant of number 56. today part of the cladding frame was fitted on the east side and the frames are now rattling away in the wind all night
01:23:18 night creating a lot of disturbance either they've not been fastened properly or more seriously the threaded metal studs are coming off this is quite a serious situation this is shoddy workmanship and is posing a great danger to everyone
01:23:29 and is posing a great danger to everyone concerned please look into this on an urgent basis and let the residents know what's going on i'm sure that your writers will receive complaints from other residents also and first question is was it common for
01:23:42 and first question is was it common for claire williams to ring you in respect of workmanship issues um not generally no she would ring me about various issues but not
01:23:53 various issues but not not generally the message that she was passing on from this resident was that this was shoddy workmanship and was posing a great danger to everyone concerned what steps did you take to go and investigate
01:24:05 take to go and investigate the allegation of shoddy workmanship um i think
01:24:09 i think in this situation i went there myself right
01:24:12 right now let's see if we can pursue the story a bit further [Music]
01:24:18 [Music] ryd3088038 please
01:24:23 this is an email chain which includes you the next day so as you can see the 16th of january and it starts at the bottom of page one where claire williams writes to simon
01:24:34 where claire williams writes to simon lawrence
01:24:34 lawrence copy to you mr o'connor and also peter madison of the tmo simon can i please have a formal response to the comments below by the end of
01:24:42 end of play on monday 19th jan i know that simon o'connor had had harley check on 15th of january as well but i do not but i do not need to have any misinformation out there about the fixings to grenfell which would
01:24:53 fixings to grenfell which would undermine confidence in the project and then you respond to her the same day
01:25:00 uh i'm sorry you you you passed this on i'm sorry to uh rob maxwell copy to simon lawrence rob we will need you to investigate this allegation and put together a professional and accurate response to
01:25:11 a professional and accurate response to this as soon as possible and then you also send a message to mr grint
01:25:19 grint subject cladding rattling fyi can you please chase this up on monday
01:25:28 uh did you ask harley to check
01:25:35 chair work check the rattling and the fixing of the yes of the cladding did you ever get an explanation about why it was that the panels were flapping about in the wind
01:25:46 about in the wind i don't think it was panels um i think it was rails and it's common practice to pin a rail on a building of that size you don't fix it permanently you pin it
01:25:57 you don't fix it permanently you pin it while you're lining it up um and they will rattle did you get a report back from harley that they had checked and all was well um yes i believe that's what they told me
01:26:08 yes i believe that's what they told me i'm not i'm not sure in writing but yeah can we look at ryd3028016 please this is an email a day on the same day
01:26:20 this is an email a day on the same day where claire williams sends simon lawrence a message copying you in and also christina stephanie on the same subject cladding rattling
01:26:32 on the same subject cladding rattling and she says simon that simon lawrence i think that as well as having your response as a second paragraph it would be useful
01:26:39 be useful for ryden to visit this home and look at the fixings and talk with the resident the patel family are leaseholders and have been to every consultation they are very conscientious about being up to date with information and i want
01:26:50 up to date with information and i want to be able to reassure them currently you understand they have some serious concerns please confirm claire williams
01:26:58 can i ask you why this workmanship issue wasn't picked up by ryden's internal processes
01:27:03 processes because it wasn't complete
01:27:06 does that mean that you wouldn't actually inspect for quality of workmanship until the work was complete well i think it's unfair to to snag work that's in progress um well if i understood what you said a
01:27:17 um well if i understood what you said a moment ago it worked as you say was in progress it hadn't been finally fixed yes is that the point that's yeah that's what i'm saying yeah yeah so it was pinned into place but not
01:27:29 yeah so it was pinned into place but not actually fixed and it's an unfortunate that is left pinned into place so that it can rattle in the wind yeah and whether it should have been or not it's another question but it was
01:27:41 not it's another question but it was finally fixed it was secure it wasn't going anywhere yeah but i can understand being you know it was really windy around the tower and i can understand the frustrations of the residents um trying to sleep with
01:27:53 the residents um trying to sleep with metal to metal clinging together all night long yeah i understand that so why was a partly constructed piece of the structure left in a way that would deserve residents um it wasn't done
01:28:04 residents um it wasn't done intentionally um and i i'm fairly sure that after this we managed to get a system where we could string from top to bottom and fix it more rigidly now
01:28:15 and fix it more rigidly now do you remember whether uh anybody from ryden did visit uh this occupant in their flat and look at the fixings and talk with the resident
01:28:25 resident that would probably be myself and christina do you remember doing that i don't but i would generally go and see leaseholders that show concern right now can we look at ryd3028018
01:28:37 right now can we look at ryd3028018 [Applause]
01:28:40 please this is an email only a few minutes later
01:28:46 later in fact where there's some photographs attached to it and claire williams says to simon lawrence copy to you cladding rattling simons as to both of you
01:28:59 rattling simons as to both of you is there not a leveling mechanism washers are similar the photo shows a clear gap between the cladding angle and the wall which presumably varies from elevation to elevation did you know the answer to the question
01:29:10 did you know the answer to the question she was asking no i don't think so i don't recall that email
01:29:16 email i mean the building i'm guessing she's talking about the you know now of of the frame but the building was 28 stories high and it it varied it so that she'd
01:29:28 and it it varied it so that she'd probably right there would be gaps but i don't remember responding to it at all did the complaint generally give you calls for concern about harley's work no did you agree with claire williams
01:29:42 no did you agree with claire williams assessment that the photograph provided by mr patel showed that there was a clear gap between the cladding angle and the wall
01:29:48 the wall i don't think i responded no that may be but in your mind did you agree with claire williams's assessment i can't i can't recall honestly if i did agree or didn't agree claire would quite often
01:30:00 would quite often um send me things that weren't relevant did this exchange and this event take take you to uh or provoke you to
01:30:11 take you to uh or provoke you to ensure that harley were working to a proper standard of workmanship i thought they were um i think i showed my concerns of of them in an earlier email when they
01:30:22 of them in an earlier email when they first started the project
01:30:26 can we look at ryd3028021 let's look at the top of the page together it is you to claire williams
01:30:38 together it is you to claire williams 16th of january same subject and also to simon lawrence and peter madison clapping rattling afternoon claire
01:30:47 claire following your original email yesterday we already requested all fixing were checked immediately and a written response provided as discussed i will visit mr patel on monday to answer any queries or concerns he may have
01:31:00 did you ever receive a response from harley um i believe i probably did
01:31:12 did you put any additional safeguards in place to make sure that harley were fitting to a proper and safe standard as a response of this complaint
01:31:21 complaint i don't think they were fitting to an unsafe standard um at this point not with the rails and whatnot
01:31:27 whatnot but i did ask them to make sure that they fixed rails adequately so they didn't rattle around in the evening to to make more residents complain or have concern
01:31:37 concern did you go back and carry out a final inspection to make sure that harley had put this problem right i probably wouldn't have done but um one of
01:31:45 of the external manager would have done
01:31:51 can i ask you then to look at ryd3039173 and i'd like you to have pages one and two of this email string put up together it's an email chain between you and
01:32:02 it's an email chain between you and linda prentice of the tmo on the 17th of april 2015 and i'd like you to look at the bottom of page one on the top of page two she writes to you on the 17th of april
01:32:13 she writes to you on the 17th of april 2015 re185 hi simon i just received a text from david collins in flat185 stating he found a part of the window installation hanging loose this morning he's taken it into his house as he
01:32:25 he's taken it into his house as he didn't want it to fall 18 floors and also that there is some polythene on the back of one of the cladding panels which is blowing in the wind and has nearly come off on the north facing side he's asked if this could be taken off safely now your response was to forward
01:32:38 safely now your response was to forward the message to ben bailey at harley's as we can see on page one if you look at that ben can you please can you deal with this please 185 is a problem property
01:32:50 please 185 is a problem property and he's questioning the quality of the install he will shout this from the rooftops if not resolved promptly and what what criteria did you judge whether a property was quote a problem property mr o'connor
01:33:03 quote a problem property mr o'connor yeah i think my wording probably wasn't great there so 185 it was actually owned by a absent leaseholder um and he had done a huge amount of work in his property
01:33:14 a huge amount of work in his property prior to us coming along um with drop ceilings and you know top of the range surround sound and uh they really didn't want all the pipe work to come through their front door
01:33:25 work to come through their front door and across their ceiling so they'd that they'd made a huge effort in that flat and they just wasn't happy with and i think in honesty i don't think they were told by the tmo
01:33:36 i don't think they were told by the tmo exactly what they were getting in the first place um so what they actually got was something different than what was offered in the beginning so when you say problem property do you mean problem occupant
01:33:48 mean problem occupant no i mean it it is it was a problem i said problems with wrong word but a difficult property because there was so much done to it um you know that we have we had to try and
01:33:58 and get over the occupant himself was okay it looks as if what you're saying is that 185 is a problem property because the occupant is questioning the quality of
01:34:10 occupant is questioning the quality of the installation no is that what you meant no not at all
01:34:15 right then you go on to say he will shout this from the rooftops if not resolved promptly is he fair to say that sorry
01:34:25 is it fair to say that you're expressing concern that if ryden doesn't remedy this problem promptly mr collins would share his concerns with other residents he was an active part of the uh grenfell
01:34:37 he was an active part of the uh grenfell blog
01:34:38 blog an active part of uh the the group that sort of represented the block um i think it it's you know it it's it's it's positive for
01:34:49 you know it it's it's it's positive for us to try and you know keep that enclosed rather than raising
01:34:54 raising concerns that i didn't feel were you know
01:34:57 know massive concerns did you not think that his concern was worth taking seriously his concern of well that he's expressed
01:35:08 his concern of well that he's expressed all that she has expressed has recorded to you
01:35:11 to you in the text that that linda prentice had received from him yeah i mean the the plastic coming off is the plastic backing that was on every single panel um and that doesn't come off until
01:35:22 um and that doesn't come off until you're coming to the close of the project
01:35:24 project um and the piece of thing he was saying was hanging off i think was mastic i mean it was nothing i would say that was fundamentally wrong so you thought you might overreact um
01:35:36 so you thought you might overreact um yeah possibly ben bailey says in his response
01:35:45 at the very top there he says yep i'll ask taft to go and have a look do you know what the taft did um i'd yes i think taft did i think i also went up to see
01:35:57 went up to see the resident as well and did you have a discussion with the resident yes and what was the result of that i think he was happy with what i was explaining to him i think that's what i've just explained to you really
01:36:08 i've just explained to you really i didn't see a fundamental problem with what was i mean i understand again the noise was probably more annoying than anything else of the plastic flapping around outside the window
01:36:19 the window can i ask you to look at ryd3039198 it's a slightly different topic it's an email from simon lawrence to you of the 17th of april 2015 so exactly the same
01:36:30 17th of april 2015 so exactly the same day
01:36:32 day but not on the subject of plastic backing i'd like you to look at uh
01:36:44 no that's a wrong i think i've given the wrong reference it's ryd-3039198
01:36:54 that's the one
01:36:58 yes simon lawrence to you 17th of april so the same day and i'd like you to look at the second paragraph please
01:37:07 please and he says you also need to expand straight breakdown progress tasks in other areas as well it needs to give the client a fuller picture of the works completed just
01:37:18 picture of the works completed just counting windows isn't good enough looks like you've just done bare minimum to fob client off and that's not the impression we want to portray have another go and send it back across this afternoon please do you agree or did you agree with mr
01:37:30 do you agree or did you agree with mr lawrence's assessment of your work no is it fair to say that mr lawrence rightly or wrongly wasn't satisfied with your performance on this issue
01:37:41 your performance on this issue yes do you know what gave rise to mr lawrence's dissatisfaction as reflected in his email to you here um i think his expectations were different to mine in what way uh in the way that um
01:37:55 in what way uh in the way that um when we're presenting to to a client um i
01:37:59 i don't actually want to hear how many wins had been done not how many floors and what flats or east and west i think that just confuses the matter at this point was the project under time pressure yes
01:38:11 pressure yes cost cost to pressure um
01:38:15 i wouldn't be able to comment i don't know can i ask you to look at ryd3042487 this is another email from simon lawrence a little bit later in the
01:38:27 lawrence a little bit later in the year 27 may 2015 to you and to danny osgood now we looked at this yesterday with mr lawrence when he gave evidence
01:38:38 mr lawrence when he gave evidence and it's about the show flat he says gents i've sent an email tonight to mark explaining my thoughts and asking him to call me when he's on site tomorrow
01:38:47 tomorrow i thought it best not to copy everyone so hopefully he doesn't get defensive about the work i've also made steve blake aware so he isn't shocked when he visits tomorrow overall i'm extremely upset
01:38:58 upset that we've got to today and in my opinion are nowhere near having the flat in a show condition it shouldn't take me to visit and notice the issue straight away apart from being unfinished in areas the bouncy window board is a disaster
01:39:09 bouncy window board is a disaster i can't still can't understand how it hasn't been noticed before i'm expecting to be called to account from steve and quite frankly i haven't got any good excuses the only saving grace is that the client's director isn't planning on visiting tomorrow
01:39:20 visiting tomorrow as first thought whatever happens that flat's got to be top-notch ready for inspection by the client next week i expect nothing short of a quality job please ensure this happens it's our last chance
01:39:32 why was mr lawrence extremely upset mr o'connor
01:39:37 o'connor um again because he he hadn't got what he wanted what he was expecting is it fair to say that looked at in general he was taking you to task
01:39:47 to task for falling short in quality terms yeah why was it ryden's last chance last chance before what i don't know i mean this was a show flat
01:39:59 i don't know i mean this was a show flat it's not and it was empty so i don't understand why it's our last chance
01:40:04 chance can you explain how you'd let uh mr lawrence down as he describes in this email i think like i said we
01:40:12 said we you know we had different um visions on what was happening and he would also get involved and give us ideas that
01:40:24 and give us ideas that sometimes we're not achievable
01:40:27 can you explain how the show flat had been left in such an unfinished state and
01:40:32 and mr lawrence's expectations were so disappointed it wasn't in such an unfinished state
01:40:39 so do i take it from another you disagree with his assessment yes did you take that up with him um probably yes
01:40:48 in what way did you take it up with mr lawrence did you email him or did you ring him what did you think he was going to be on site the following week so i would have spoke to him right and what was the upshot of that do you remember i think it
01:41:01 do you remember i think it this it was ready for the next for the client the next week as far as i remember and we know you left ryden in september 2015 after working out your notice period
01:41:13 working out your notice period and if you were transferred in fact uh grand fell to lee bridge in july 2015. were you taking off the grenfell tower project because of quality issues
01:41:24 project because of quality issues i was asked to be removed you were asked to be removed do you know why that was because i'd resigned and um i didn't think i could fulfill my obligations there knowing it was still going to continue for a long time as
01:41:35 going to continue for a long time as best someone took it over at that point why would you move to the lee bridge project why did you work your notice out on the lee bridge project that's where i was moved to but why i don't know why it was uh
01:41:46 but why i don't know why it was uh i got an email from steve blake asking me to report to lee bridge
01:41:55 during your work on the project did you become aware at any times with problems concerning the extent of gaps between the edge of the concrete window enclosure and the edge of the new window
01:42:06 enclosure and the edge of the new window frames that were going in on the project
01:42:10 sorry can you repeat that yes did you ever become aware during your time as project manager of any problems about
01:42:17 about gaps between the edge of the concrete window enclosure and the edge of the new window frames between the concrete and the frames yeah is this the the off the offset
01:42:30 yeah is this the the off the offset angle on the corner of the um window edge
01:42:33 edge well uh i'm asking you what i had rather thought was a simpler question than that but sorry it must have been said did you ever become aware of any uh any issue any problems
01:42:44 issue any problems about the the size of gaps between the edge of the concrete window enclosure and the edge of the window frames
01:42:52 frames the side of the new window frames i still don't understand where you're going i don't well never mind where i'm going
01:42:59 going let me try it a different way uh did you ever become of any problems concerning gaps
01:43:04 gaps between the structure the concrete structure and the window frames no i was um i was aware of the the gaps where the old frame remained in um
01:43:16 remained in um but no
01:43:20 but no i don't i don't do you remember any problems
01:43:23 problems about gaps between the newly installed windows and the old timber window surrounds yeah that's what i was just referring to right i see how did you come to know about those issues
01:43:35 about those issues um i think from doing the show flat i see what about before that i don't think it was thought about before that right
01:43:46 before that right what did you do about those gaps
01:43:50 um the gaps between the newly installed windows and the old timber timber windows around
01:44:00 the upstands are you are you referring to the upstand sorry yes um that's that's the whole world and things
01:44:07 things time and longer it's not been happy because it's bouncy so i think there was various options floated around right and my question really is when did you become aware of those problems was it only with the [ __ ] well let me ask it this way was it only with the
01:44:18 ask it this way was it only with the show flat or was it more of a generic problem
01:44:21 problem i think once we once we found it on the show i think we were going to find it everywhere right and what did you do about it um i think we went to a number of companies to try and get this trimming done on the internals and how did that end up
01:44:33 on the internals and how did that end up uh he ended up with sdp doing it can i ask you to go to hir403691 please [Applause]
01:44:47 this is an email from mr lawrence to studio e and harley 16th of october 2014
01:44:55 uh and you're copied in on that gents i think we'll definitely have an issue with the kitchen window we roughly marked it out in flat 145 that was the show flat i think a little over sales kitchen stroke lounge
01:45:07 over sales kitchen stroke lounge screen by around 200 millimeters it looks bad regards simon what did you understand him to mean by over sailing yeah there was a wall the kitchen wall
01:45:18 yeah there was a wall the kitchen wall and i think the window was there right was this a problem caused by or connected to the gaps between the concrete window enclosure and the edge of the new window frames
01:45:27 frames no i think this was caused by the winds originally were going to be the concrete within the structure was going to be cut back to make the windows bigger and i think that's what because because that didn't happen and that's what
01:45:38 that didn't happen and that's what caused this right when you refer to over sailing um you mean the window frame and structurally was wider than the
01:45:49 structurally was wider than the opening into which it ought to fit yeah so you had the wall here and so from the outside you would have seen the wall through the window yeah okay thank you did you do you remember whether you received a response from
01:46:00 whether you received a response from harley
01:46:00 harley in respect of this question not not absolutely my head no what about studio e
01:46:11 studio e i think there was a response but i don't i can't recall what it was right and looking at this gap then between the edge of the concrete window enclosures and the edge of the replacement frames were you aware that the the gap at the
01:46:23 were you aware that the the gap at the column was specified in the design drawings as varying between 35 millimeters and 90 millimeters not at the time and so that would it would follow that you
01:46:34 so that would it would follow that you weren't aware that it was in some places significantly more than the 90 millimeters suggested in the drawings no
01:46:44 mr williams i wonder if we're not slightly across purposes here i may be wrong but i thought the gap to which you just referred was a gap what i understand mr o'connor
01:46:57 was a gap what i understand mr o'connor who described in this problem is that the windows were too wide yeah there wasn't a gap there was an over projection yes i think there are there are two
01:47:05 are two different questions perhaps actually just talk to clarify that yeah yes i was asking you earlier i was trying to establish that there were two gap problems the first is between the edge of the
01:47:16 the first is between the edge of the concrete window enclosures and the edge of the replacement frames and the second one was in between the edge of the concrete window enclosures and the
01:47:23 and the um and the uh edge of the frames at the jam or the infill panel you see there are two different spaces where there are places where there are gaps
01:47:34 gaps and i just wanted to ask you one or two questions about that um let's see if i can take this a bit more quickly can you go to blas
01:47:45 709 and turn to page 13.
01:47:52 look at figure 9.9 please this is a photograph sorry 9.9 uh this is a the top photograph
01:48:05 9.9 uh this is a the top photograph that's the one uh showing uh unfilled gaps in the eternal in the internal window construction at sil level
01:48:13 sil level this is flat 13. and she's measured the gap between the jam of the new window frame and the concrete enclosure on the column at 120 millimeters did you know that the gaps
01:48:26 millimeters did you know that the gaps were that big at the time no right now in fact we can see
01:48:32 see on this photograph uh a rubber membrane as a black rubber membrane do you see yep behind it it's a it's an epdm membrane
01:48:43 membrane and we can also see that a gap has been intermittently filled with adhesive foam did you at the time know anything about how the gap that's measured there the 120 millimeter
01:48:55 that's measured there the 120 millimeter wide gap was going to be filled no if this was on flat 13 that was so far down the building i wouldn't have been there but no i wasn't aware but in general terms i know this is flat 13 as an example but
01:49:06 know this is flat 13 as an example but in general terms were you aware how this gap was to be filled um the one going right down well the one that's identified by the double arrow um which is 120 millimeters wide
01:49:19 which is 120 millimeters wide um from memory it was some sort of insulation i believe right and do you know or from memory can you tell us what an insulation was to be
01:49:31 what product that was see it's not from memory but i would say probably rockable i wouldn't know but that's what i would look at it now and think
01:49:42 look at it now and think but i can't say back then i would have thought
01:49:47 now there's another gap in respect to the gap between the edge of the concrete windows
01:49:53 windows the concrete window enclosures on the edge of the replacement frames at the jam
01:49:56 jam or infill panel let's look at another photograph it's blas
01:50:05 it's blas 708 please at page 20.
01:50:16 i'd like to look at uh figure 8.19 there the photograph at the top of the page mr o'connor can you see that i can and you can see a cavity you can see that there's an original concrete in the field panel and
01:50:29 original concrete in the field panel and then there's a little cavity uninterrupted to opposite window and then new infill panel on the left-hand side insulating core panel you see that yep now if we go to another picture which is page 20
01:50:40 picture which is page 20 i'm sorry sorry b-l-a b-l-a-s i wonder if we can have this actually on two pages b-l-a-s-709 at page 20. which is
01:50:53 at page 20. which is which is another chapter of dr lane's report
01:50:57 report i'd just like to look at figure 9.13
01:51:02 and if we could have those on two pages that would be that would be good um you can see that the cavity and the jam of the window between the concrete infill panel and the new insulating core there has
01:51:13 and the new insulating core there has been packed with combustible insulation and we can see from the markings on the foil face that it's celatex
01:51:22 celatex you see that i do and then finally can i just show you one other thing uh i've shown you those i'll show you one other thing p-h-y-r-704
01:51:34 one other thing p-h-y-r-704 at page twenty four and let's look at the figures four eleven and four twelve
01:51:43 which are on the same uh they're the same figures and the same thing photos taken by hks at grenfell tower in may last year so this is post fire of course
01:51:55 so this is post fire of course and you can see there that combustible insulation which just celetex and kingspan has been packed into the cavity at the jam of the window between the concrete infill panel
01:52:06 window between the concrete infill panel and the new insulating core panel can you see that yes now those are the gaps i just want to ask you about
01:52:13 you about at your in your time did you consider or did you know whether this method of filling
01:52:18 filling these gaps
01:52:21 was to be used not that i'm aware of but i made them but not i'm aware of did you consider whether the designs that you saw provided for this method of filling gap these gaps i
01:52:34 this method of filling gap these gaps i don't recall did you ever consider the fire risks of filling these gaps with that kind of material
01:52:42 um celetex um the whole building was covered in celotex i don't i probably wouldn't have thought that to be particularly wrong i
01:52:55 thought that to be particularly wrong i know now
01:52:56 know now but at the time the whole building was covered in did you or anybody else to your knowledge
01:53:03 knowledge ed ryden ever asked whether this approach
01:53:07 approach of filling these gaps i've shown you with this material i've shown you was compliant with the building regulations i doubt it uh
01:53:19 i doubt it uh final gap which is the gap between the head and the sill of the window frames and the old timber window surrounds just want to look at two more documents blas
01:53:30 at two more documents blas blas 709 page six please
01:53:37 and i'd just like you to look at uh figure what 9.3 and we can see here that the insulation if you look at it has been packed at the head of the window so this is the head of the window to close the gap between the head of the
01:53:49 close the gap between the head of the newly installed frame and the original timber window reveal lining can you see that i can yeah and and that insulation would have been packed under the lining to the newly installed frame
01:54:01 newly installed frame which i think was a upvc lining wasn't it yes yes now let's just look at blas seven zeros eight to page 17 please and
01:54:12 seven zeros eight to page 17 please and i'd like you to go to figure 8.16 the bottom of that page
01:54:20 where um again this is uh a photograph combustible insulation materials
01:54:27 materials this is flat 15 living room this is from underside of internal finishes and dr lane notes that combustible insulation or filler material was used or behind the internal finishes
01:54:38 was used or behind the internal finishes window finishes sills jams and heads
01:54:43 and there was a zigzag pattern showing an internal finish with glue now first of all were you aware that gaps at the head and sill of the newly installed window frames
01:54:54 the newly installed window frames and the in the original timber revealed lining were being filled in the way these photographs show i knew that the um i know the original timber frame was staying in and they were being packed
01:55:05 staying in and they were being packed out using
01:55:06 out using that material yes you did know that um silatex probably right did you make any attempt to inquire whether filling those gaps with this insulation material
01:55:17 those gaps with this insulation material complied with building regulations i think i think like i said a little while ago i didn't i didn't see it particularly as a as an issue as the whole building was being covered in it and someone
01:55:28 being covered in it and someone far more intelligent than me had designed it did you uh make any attempt to inquire whether filling the gaps with this material in this way was an
01:55:39 with this material in this way was an unplanned
01:55:40 unplanned ad hoc measure to deal with unanticipated gaps i don't think so no well these gaps that we've seen here something you expected on this project
01:55:51 something you expected on this project one didn't expect uh i don't think i would have expected them to be as different as you've shown right does it follow that you therefore didn't expect to have to fill them
01:56:02 didn't expect to have to fill them in the way that they were filled or with the product with which they were filled yes [Applause] i just want to ask you some questions
01:56:13 i just want to ask you some questions about
01:56:16 substitution of celetex for rockwool around the windows can i ask you to go to sea403040
01:56:27 which is page five or page five of that document
01:56:32 document now this is uh a harley drawing which is showing in the middle insulation by others can you see that i can now this is a document just to give it a date it's dated the 20th of
01:56:43 give it a date it's dated the 20th of august
01:56:45 august uh 2014 and it's marked conforms to design intent approved for construction you would this is a document you would have seen presumably
01:56:56 have seen presumably in order to pass to harley for them to construct
01:57:00 construct yes harley's drawing indeed but you would have passed through your hands as project manager yeah yes now um can you can see in the middle of the page there it says insulation by others in that
01:57:13 it says insulation by others in that in that space there you can see the gap what who did you consider was responsible for choosing that insulate insulation material um
01:57:28 i can't recall i would imagine studio e or harley no harley wouldn't be doing it so probably studio e you say harley wouldn't be doing it is that business it says insulation by others exactly
01:57:41 it says insulation by others exactly and is is that because this was part of the inside and not part of the envelope yes that's what mr lawrence said yesterday i see now you were the project manager who
01:57:52 now you were the project manager who were the others that harley was referring to others not harley well clearly but who were they
01:58:01 were they i don't know it's just it's it's just uh i think that's just uh we're not doing it comment not even right
01:58:09 right can i ask you to go to ryd3040686
01:58:17 and this is an email of the 6th of may 2015
01:58:20 2015 from mark dixon of sd plastering to adam marriott copy to you and mr lawrence and he sends a quotation sdb front sheet quote
01:58:31 now you you can see that you receive this
01:58:34 this at least as a copy a recipient let's look at the quotation
01:58:41 ryd3088957 um here is the quotation we looked at this with mr lawrence and he couldn't really help us with it i
01:58:53 and he couldn't really help us with it i wonder if you can did you open the quotation
01:58:56 quotation that mark dixon had sent and look at this document quite possibly i don't don't recall opening it because it's financial so um no i don't recall but quite possibly
01:59:07 um no i don't recall but quite possibly yes well i appreciate it was sent to adam marriott uh in the first instance but you were copied in on it and i'm just really wondering
01:59:13 wondering whether you were interested enough to look at it if you look at item five left hand column it says place celotex insulation to reveals and base of window
01:59:24 insulation to reveals and base of window when you got this email and received this document did you open it and notice that it specified celitex insulation in those locations probably not why is that
01:59:37 i can't recall i don't know was it not your job
01:59:40 your job to note as project manager to understand what
01:59:44 what insulation material was being placed in the inside parts of the window which did not form
01:59:52 not form part of harley's work package i would imagine this the left-hand side column would have been passed on to somebody else but were you not as project manager was it not your job to work out who it was
02:00:03 it not your job to work out who it was it was like being passed on to not particularly no why is that because it was
02:00:09 it was probably something that simon would have done because it had financial restraints on it
02:00:13 on it well you say financial restraints you know what i mean there's there's a sorry the it's got it's got the contract values and stuff on it it's not something that i would usually deal with um
02:00:24 deal with um and it's got an element of design in it hasn't it
02:00:29 uh can i ask you to go to the nbs specification
02:00:35 sca50169 page 243
02:00:42 uh under section p10 235 compressible insulation in gaps you can see that
02:00:50 see that that is what is said there and you can see that underneath that the manufacturer is rockwool and the product reference is provided there and the material is mineral wool to bs en 13162
02:01:04 en 13162 do you remember whether when you received this quotation from sd plastering you referred back to the nbs specification to check which installation product should be used to pack the window reveals
02:01:15 pack the window reveals prior to planning the work to those window reveals no i doubt i did why is that i don't recall that was your job wasn't it um again it's
02:01:27 um again it's yes it probably was my job and no i don't recall doing it right i just sorry to press but i just like to understand if it was your job why you didn't consider doing it um i don't think it was an active
02:01:39 um i don't think it was an active thought of not considering to do it and i think as you've put forward there was pressures on the project you know with an email like traffic the way it was and stuff going on you know i possibly have
02:01:52 stuff going on you know i possibly have missed it or didn't didn't follow up the way i should have done right
02:02:01 mr lawrence was asked this about this and he said day 25 page 61 line 21 that it was the decision
02:02:09 decision of all at ryden to go forward with celetex instead of what was used in the or identified in the nba specification do you agree with that
02:02:20 specification do you agree with that well i wouldn't agree with all i mean i don't know what it's referring to at all
02:02:30 i'm going to ask you some questions about liaison with building control mr chairman
02:02:33 chairman this is i think the penultimate line of questions i've got and it's quite short i've noticed the time but we are going to have to take a break when you say quite short five minutes
02:02:46 when you say quite short five minutes i have five minutes on on building control depending on the answers of course
02:02:50 course and then a couple of other follow-up questions on workmanship i would call that ten well yes that's probably right you haven't gone for another 10 minutes after that we'll have a have to have a break while people review the situation
02:03:03 break while people review the situation so we'll see how we get on yes mr chairman thank you um you say in your statement that the involvement of building control among others gave you reassurance that fire safety was being properly addressed
02:03:15 fire safety was being properly addressed and just
02:03:16 and just for your benefit that's paragraph 16 of your statement do you agree that it was incumbent on ryden to ensure that building control were provided with full and proper information about the design
02:03:28 and proper information about the design and the construction of grenfell tower refurbishment works yes and that would include design and construction of the rain screen cladding facade
02:03:38 facade yes and it was incumbent on ryden to take proper steps to ensure that studio e and harley provided the right information to building control yes
02:03:51 to building control yes and that that would happen in an orderly coherent and timely manner yes usually yes and also information in respect of what products
02:04:02 products were going to go on to the building yeah that would form part of this the drawings in the spec i'd imagine so yes what steps did you take mr o'connor to ensure that building control were
02:04:13 to ensure that building control were provided with full and proper information about those matters i think liaison building control was mainly done above me right can i ask you to go to
02:04:24 above me right can i ask you to go to ryd3016989 [Applause] this is an email from simon lawrence to john hoban of rbkc of the 3rd of september 2014
02:04:37 of rbkc of the 3rd of september 2014 i think we looked at this before in your evidence
02:04:42 uh and uh i asked you i think earlier about whether you could recall a meeting on site between you and mr hope and i don't think you could recall that um we have uh dug out a note of
02:04:54 um we have uh dug out a note of that meeting or what we think might be this is rbk403041 at page eight let's see if this triggers a recollection
02:05:07 recollection that's rbk403041
02:05:17 this is a
02:05:23 a a note of the meeting said to have taken place on the 29th of august 2015.
02:05:31 2015. if we go to page eight uh i'm sorry this is actually a running document page eight is what we won there we go and you can see the date there and uh the officer was john hoban notes visited site met
02:05:43 was john hoban notes visited site met project manager had brief discussion about the project asked to be contacted when construction works commence on site gave advice that what's as to what stages of the works we needed to to be contacted to inspect
02:05:55 to be contacted to inspect workmen still presently carrying out demolition works nothing to check at times
02:05:59 times the demolition works to go on for some time also informed the project manager that i had yet to receive up-to-date details of the works um was that project manager that he's referring to do you think you
02:06:11 referring to do you think you i was the only project manager here i would imagine right do you recall a meeting now you've seen this note with mr hoban at the end of august 2014 and discussing these matters with him
02:06:25 um i don't recall it any more than i did this morning right so this doesn't trigger any recollection in your mind about the matters you discussed with him or the meeting itself no right
02:06:39 do you remember whether mr hogan took any drawings away from any meeting that he had with you um not from then i mean from reading the documents that we're reading now
02:06:50 documents that we're reading now um it's quite possible that neil crawford may have brought a free file of drawings for mr hoban to take with him
02:06:57 him but i don't recall giving him any drawings right can we stick with this document and go up to page six please and look at the top of the page where we can see that there's an entry
02:07:08 where we can see that there's an entry for a meeting or visit on the 29th of september 2014 where mr hoban says that he had a brief discussion i visited visited site met project
02:07:20 i visited visited site met project manager had brief discussion about the project
02:07:23 project work when still presently carrying out definite demolition works nothing to check at time of visit and then he says at the end also informed project manager that i had just received the up-to-date details of the
02:07:35 received the up-to-date details of the works
02:07:36 works do you remember that meeting
02:07:43 no
02:07:46 do you remember a meeting at about this time when you did give him up-to-date details of the works or i don't think he just received them i don't think he's saying that i gave him to him i think
02:07:57 saying that i gave him to him i think he's saying that he's received um so no i don't recall
02:08:04 call that do you remember him mentioning at this meeting that he received drawing he had received drawings from neil crawford no
02:08:14 do you remember whether mr hoban gave you any indication that he knew what materials were going to be used in the facade
02:08:20 facade i don't remember the meeting if i'm honest
02:08:23 honest it was a long time ago i don't i'm not not going to stand here and say yes i remember i don't now i think you referred in your statement to a visit in may 2015 if we go to
02:08:38 art404029 at page 12 we can see an artelia progress report
02:08:46 and under section 7
02:08:52 actually this looks like a ryden progress report in fact but if we look under section 7 building control we're on site on friday 15 may to inspect the top three floors for insulation fire break and window
02:09:04 for insulation fire break and window insulation on three elevation and had no adverse comments does this document trigger a recollection with you about whether you were the person on site seeing building control on that day
02:09:15 site seeing building control on that day i don't think that would have been me who would that have been do you think i'm probably the external manager i don't
02:09:20 don't think daniel was good yeah daniel's good was there right well let's see if we can just pursue that a bit if we look at the rbkc note of the visit that's rbk403041 at page four
02:09:32 at page four [Applause]
02:09:41 and i'd like to look at the second lowest box on that page this is again in that run of rbkc john hoban uh meeting notes and this time we're looking at um the meeting of the 15th of may 2015. it's
02:09:53 meeting of the 15th of may 2015. it's very short it just says inspection to check framework for cladding can you see yep uh can you help us with what rbkc actually
02:10:04 help us with what rbkc actually inspected on that visit or can you not
02:10:09 that would have been the front it would have been the framework i needed the rails and brackets i'd imagine yes but do you remember an inspection by john hoban checking the frame the framework for the cladding
02:10:20 framework for the cladding at that time not specifically but i know i know that was a part that he had requested seeing do you remember whether our bkc inspected the internal works above the
02:10:32 inspected the internal works above the fourth floor
02:10:35 rbkc bob john hoban building control i don't recall if you did or not right i think they employed clarke works for that
02:10:45 that during our interactions with john hoban did you ever tell him that the metal framework
02:10:50 framework supporting the cladding had been tested no
02:10:53 no did you ever tell him that the cladding system had been fitted to many buildings throughout england and wales to buildings of a similar height and construction i wouldn't have known that at the time did you ever tell john hoban that the
02:11:04 did you ever tell john hoban that the cladding would comply with the standards set out in a proof document b no did you ever tell john hogan that the cladding panels were class naught or above
02:11:13 above no did you ever hear anybody else say something along those lines to john hogan
02:11:18 hogan not that i recall now can i then just finally ask you
02:11:33 uh one or two further questions about your liaisons with the building control officer mr lawrence gave evidence
02:11:43 evidence uh yesterday to day 25 and for our references his line it's page 8181 line 12
02:11:49 12 and following about conversations with the building control officer
02:11:58 and
02:12:01 i'm so sorry that's you giving evidence and uh you say that you walked around looking at progress when you didn't have detailed conversations with him
02:12:12 detailed conversations with him uh i don't have anything on my screen just so you're aware no that's right yeah don't worry for the moment
02:12:22 now perhaps the best and simplest way to do this is to show you mr crawford's statement
02:12:30 uh sea 301475 at page 65.
02:12:44 in paragraph 206 he says towards the start of my involvement in the project i recall meeting john hope and building control with simon o'connor ryden on site this may have been during the week commencing 25th of
02:12:56 been during the week commencing 25th of august 2014. i remember that john was very clear about how he wanted information issued if he could turn the page such as that he was specifically and primarily concerned with fire related
02:13:08 primarily concerned with fire related matters and wanted a basic set of information so that he could then request
02:13:11 request further information if he required it so that he was not overwhelmed with information now we've got uh the last part of august we've seen the hoban note about that having having me
02:13:24 hoban note about that having having me showing me having shown you that does that trigger a recollection in your mind about what was discussed in that late august 2014 meeting no it doesn't feminist is mr crawford's
02:13:36 no it doesn't feminist is mr crawford's recollection incorrect when he says that he met
02:13:41 mr hoban and you on site and that mr hoban
02:13:45 hoban told you both what he wanted namely a basic set of information so that he could then request further information if you required it i can't say mr crawford's incorrect but i don't recall that conversation
02:13:56 i don't recall that conversation right
02:14:02 [Applause]
02:14:06 now can i just put to you what mr lawrence says about liaisons with building offices he said at day 25 let's have a look at page 181
02:14:19 i just want to show you a brief exchange there
02:14:22 there he says in answer my question at line 19
02:14:30 and i've shown i've shown him an email the 3rd of september which i've shown you and it says you refer in that email as you can see to a meeting on site between
02:14:41 can see to a meeting on site between john hogan and simon o'connor the answer which presumably is the meeting that was referenced a few moments ago yes i was going to ask you that
02:14:48 that did simon o'connor himself relay to you what had been discussed at that meeting and he goes on i know mr crawford you get over the page recalls you being present and you can't remember but did mr o'connor tell you what was discussed
02:15:00 mr o'connor tell you what was discussed at that meeting he may have done at the time but i don't recall now you see that uh uh and uh then i asked him do you know whether mr o'connor had said anything to mr hoban
02:15:13 o'connor had said anything to mr hoban about whether the clanning system complied with the proof document b i don't recall being told that and i can't imagine i think it's probably best to ask simon but i can't imagine that he would be
02:15:22 would be simon o'connor would be stating that to building control did you state that to building control no
02:15:29 no do you accept that your interactions with building control went beyond the cursory formalities that you i think describe to us this morning in your evidence no not particularly um we wouldn't be
02:15:41 no not particularly um we wouldn't be discussing document b um
02:15:47 i want to show you something else while we're on uh day 20. how are we getting on uh very well mr mr chairman i just got two or three more questions been running now for quite a long time okay well we should have uh i'll take our break now
02:16:00 should have uh i'll take our break now and then you can scrape up any more of your questions than anybody else's at the same time yes very well right um is ten minutes going to be enough uh no
02:16:11 is ten minutes going to be enough uh no i think it isn't i i'm i'm detecting from my screen on the left that a little bit more time might be needed i'm afraid mr chairman there are questions i think rumbling from others which i feel i need to ask or may need to ask
02:16:22 to ask or may need to ask right we have a short break now mr o'connor we'll come back at half past four
02:16:27 four i'm sorry that this afternoon is going on longer than you probably had expected i felt there's not much we can do about that okay but um we'll come back to half past four and see how much there is then correct thank you
02:16:53 right now first of all please
02:30:58 right all right would you ask mr o'connor to come back please
02:31:22 all right mr connor really ready for the last lap i hope yes thank you yes mr o'connor thank you i've only got one more question or set of questions for you can i ask you to be shown ryd3042091
02:31:46 uh this is an email from simon lawrence to
02:31:50 to you the 20th of may 2015 and i think we've looked at it earlier actually because it was about uh the inspection sheet and the rs 5000
02:32:02 uh the inspection sheet and the rs 5000 product sheet we looked at it this morning in the context of a discussion about celetex i just want to ask you about the second paragraph he says
02:32:12 as you can read i've told him about our quality procedures which we should be carrying out we whilst we always do this we aren't always the greatest on site at keeping all of the records
02:32:24 all of the records in this case we need to be spot on in case the funders require it at the end in order to release funds can you also ensure the attached external inspection sheet is used obviously you'll need to add to the checklist comments
02:32:35 comments i've only filled in a couple as an example
02:32:38 example i just want to focus on that second paragraph with you about quality procedures and he says to simon lawrence we aren't always the greatest on site at keeping all of the records would you
02:32:51 at keeping all of the records would you agree
02:32:52 agree with mr lawrence's assessment about these
02:32:55 these keeping of records at site on this project
02:32:59 project not particularly just on this project on projects
02:33:02 projects generally within ryden oh i see so this this problem about record keeping on site was the problem endemic in ryden was it it wasn't just um grandpa
02:33:12 grandpa i see right thank you but it was on grenfell
02:33:15 grenfell as well as the other projects that you did i thought the refereeing was quite good actually but so you don't agree with mr lawrence's assessment is that what you're saying i'm saying we don't always get it right
02:33:26 i'm saying we don't always get it right it's not always spot on but um i'm saying it's not just singling out grandpa right okay well mr o'connor i've got no further questions for you
02:33:38 further questions for you uh for this module uh and therefore i'm very grateful to you for coming along and assisting us with our investigations uh say mr german i have nothing for mr o'connor left to ask him today
02:33:49 o'connor left to ask him today thank you very much well mr o'connor that was a shorter lapse than i'd expected and perhaps than you'd expected as well anyway that's all the questions we have for you thank you very much for coming to give us your evidence i'm sorry it's gone on
02:34:01 us your evidence i'm sorry it's gone on a little longer than we'd expected but you are now finished and you're free to go thank you very much for your time thank you you'd like to give the usher
02:34:24 good thank you very much mr stupid mr chairman thank you and the next witness will be mr david hughes of ryden whom ms grange will be examining on monday morning good thank you and we'll
02:34:35 morning good thank you and we'll resume then at 10 o'clock on monday morning thank you thank you very much
02:35:08 you