Rydon Evidence - Monday 27th July 2020 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:23:28 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to hear evidence from another former employee of ryden who was engaged on the grenfell tyre refurbishment i think that's right isn't it mr strange

00:23:40 think that's right isn't it mr strange yes mr hughes so could you see if mr hughes is there please

00:23:59 i do suddenly sincerely and truthfully declare and affirm that the evidence i shall

00:24:03 shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr hughes sit down make yourself capital all right yes yes we're strange yes good

00:24:14 all right yes yes we're strange yes good morning mr hughes and thank you very much for coming to give evidence today it's very much appreciated and can you give the inquiry your full name david allen hughes um so i'm going to be asking you the

00:24:26 um so i'm going to be asking you the questions today if you have any difficulty understanding anything i'm asking you please either ask me to repeat the question

00:24:32 question or put it in a different way also if you feel that you need a break at any point please just let us know and also can you try and keep your voice up because the transcriber lady is there

00:24:43 up because the transcriber lady is there okay to your right and she's taking down all your

00:24:47 all your transcript you've made two witness statements to the inquiry they're in a folder

00:24:52 folder on the desk in front of you and i'm going to bring them up on the screen this is

00:24:58 ryd3094

00:25:02 so this is your first witness statement it's dated if we go to page 27 we can see there 26 of september 2018

00:25:13 we can see there 26 of september 2018 and is that your signature there that is yes and are the contents true to the best of your knowledge yes they are thank you and then you've made a second statement if we can pull that up now

00:25:24 statement if we can pull that up now that's at ryd three zeros nine 94349

00:25:31 and we see it's a short second statement dated the 5th of september 2019 and you submitted this in order to correct an error in your first statement again is that your signature there that

00:25:42 again is that your signature there that is yes great and are the contents true to the best of your knowledge yes they are and if we just pick up that error now so going back to your first statement

00:25:53 going back to your first statement that's ryd three zeros nine 94213 at page 14

00:26:03 and the error you're correcting i think is at 61.7 of that paragraph the date there the fifth of may 2018 you say should read the fifth of may 2016. is that correct

00:26:14 the fifth of may 2016. is that correct that is correct yes great thank you for that now i want to just start with some questions about your background and experience um so at paragraph two of your main

00:26:25 um so at paragraph two of your main statement

00:26:26 statement you say that you started work for the ryden group over 20 years ago as a site engineers assistant is that right yes that's correct and you also say you started working full-time at ryden in november 2001

00:26:40 full-time at ryden in november 2001 after getting a degree in civil engineering from plymouth university is that correct yes great and did that degree include any aspects of fire safety

00:26:54 and then at paragraph five of your main statement if we can pull that up um you list out there a number of uh relevant training courses and

00:27:05 uh relevant training courses and relevant certifications that you hold relating to your site-based role if we can just look over the page at those we've got a list of those so for example site management safety

00:27:17 so for example site management safety training scheme temporary works coordinator construction plan

00:27:21 plan competence scheme we see those set out there

00:27:25 now just thinking back would any of those

00:27:28 those courses have covered the functional requirements of the building regulations no no okay

00:27:36 now if we can go to paragraph four of your witness statement just back a page we see there that you say i ran my first project from pre-commencement stage

00:27:47 pre-commencement stage through to handover as a site manager in 2009

00:27:51 2009 i've worked on a number of occupied refurbishment projects as either the main site manager or managing a section of works reporting to a project manager i've worked on projects with cladding

00:28:03 i've worked on projects with cladding before albeit not of the size of grenfell tower i've managed an occupied refurbishment project of an 11 story tower in worthing but this did not have any aluminium cladding do you see that there

00:28:15 cladding do you see that there yes and just to ask you a few more questions about this was the grenfell tower project the the biggest project you'd worked on at that time in terms of a refurbishment project

00:28:27 a refurbishment project um no i worked on one of the early ones i worked on was about a 20 million pound refurbishment of a huge estate where i did

00:28:34 did a lot of work on externals of blocks but they were generally brick glad blocks masonry blocks yeah yeah and you talked there about some projects with cladding which you worked on before

00:28:47 with cladding which you worked on before um

00:28:48 um approximately how many projects had you worked on involving over um one really where i came in contact with admin cladding would be one in clapham but i didn't do the outside of the building so i was

00:28:59 the outside of the building so i was aware of it i was doing the internals so i worked on internals of a number of flats there was that the chalcott's estate uh no i never worked on chapels okay um so sorry carry on so

00:29:11 okay um so sorry carry on so and there was also another one where i did a small bit of aluminium cladding on a ground floor nursery but i'd not done anything sort of high rise cladding yeah so does it follow that you hadn't

00:29:22 yeah so does it follow that you hadn't done any cladding for buildings over 18 meters that's true yeah and um you said you'd done a low rise aluminium cladding can you remember what the cladding comprised of

00:29:34 cladding comprised of it was aluminium and behind it was a cool firm k15 insulation it was for a ground floor nursery yeah and was it a solid aluminium panel or do you know whether i believe it was solid

00:29:45 you know whether i believe it was solid yes yeah

00:29:46 yes yeah okay

00:29:49 do you recall whether any on any of the projects you worked on previously where the fire safety advice was sought uh in relation to the project um on the one to manage no i don't

00:30:01 um on the one to manage no i don't remember

00:30:02 remember i couldn't tell you on one to where i wasn't project manager that would have been wouldn't have been my role yeah on any of the projects that had involved cladding were you aware that any cavity barriers had been installed

00:30:14 any cavity barriers had been installed for any of those buildings um i remember cavity barriers being installed on the one where i was on the internals but so

00:30:22 but so i don't remember on the ground pool nursery but if you were on internals that was not something yeah it wasn't something i was managing the time it was something i remember seeing on the building

00:30:31 building but i wouldn't personally be managing the subcontractor putting them on so was grenfell the first project you were involved in where you had to be looking

00:30:38 looking at cavity barriers in a serious way in respect to the cladding yes but i'm aware of cavity barriers behind masonry

00:30:48 masonry i thing in terms of complementation behind brickwork right yeah now you talked there about the 11-story tower in worthing and you say that didn't have any aluminium cutting just to be clear did

00:31:00 aluminium cutting just to be clear did the project involve any over cladding at all no no over cladding at all it was repointing of the masonry brickwork right

00:31:10 now just turning to your role on the grenfell project you describe your role as a site manager that's at paragraph 22 of your witness statement um can we just look at that that's ryd

00:31:21 um can we just look at that that's ryd three zeros yes thank you um and you say there my personal involvement in the project was as a site manager stephen blake steve blake the refurbishment

00:31:32 refurbishment director spoke to me on monday the 19th of october 2015 and asked me to help out at the tower from the next day i was asked to manage the completion and handover of the cladding and communal m

00:31:43 handover of the cladding and communal m e

00:31:44 e systems and generally help out where i thought it was needed do you see that there yes can you just help us just in general terms what did managing the completion and handover of the cladding

00:31:55 handover of the cladding actually involve well the cladding when i went up there was already well under progress so it would have been finishing off the insulation well finish off the works basically the

00:32:06 well finish off the works basically the satisfaction that the people who needed to see it yeah and then you also say that you were asked to generally help out where i thought it was needed again can you just expand on what that

00:32:19 again can you just expand on what that involves oh well i essentially ended up being

00:32:22 being i looked after the ground floor entrance lobby site manager works for completing that

00:32:26 that and i ended up essentially taking over simon o'connor's role but that wasn't what was agreed with me at the time but i saw that one of the sort of things needed was uh well

00:32:37 sort of things needed was uh well interaction with the client so i became the main client data you say that that wasn't what was agreed with you at the time when you talk about at the time do you mean at the time you first started on the project yes i said

00:32:48 first started on the project yes i said yeah yeah

00:32:49 yeah yeah um so was it up to you to identify where your help was needed or was that something that you were told um he was partly up to me it's

00:33:00 um he was partly up to me it's i say steve said to me go up there and help out where needed so it was yeah and did every anyone at ryden tell you that there were specific issues that required your help um and if

00:33:13 issues that required your help um and if so what were those um i don't remember specifically no but as i said it i got originally got sent out there steve told me i'd be looking after cladding and i'd be helping manage the mle systems as well right yeah

00:33:26 the mle systems as well right yeah did you ever get a written job description um not for going up there no but i know what my job entails yeah on other projects you've worked for with ryden

00:33:37 with ryden had you ever had a written job description no but he's part of our group procedures is i understand what site manager is entails or what a job entails when you say part of your group procedures does that mean

00:33:48 your group procedures does that mean that somewhere there's a written document explaining exactly what a site manager doesn't do yeah okay

00:33:54 yeah okay so that is my job description as foreign and you'd read that before you started on the grenfell project i've read it yes now if we can turn to some minutes this is ryd3

00:34:09 these are minutes for the progress meeting number 17 that took place on the 17th of november 2015

00:34:16 2015 which you attended yeah we can see your name five lines down there um and on page three at the top of the page

00:34:27 page item 2.9 we see there it says item 3.4 ryden management team action and then it says

00:34:35 says sb is that steve blake that is yes to publish revised ride and on-site management structure sb noted that david hughes role has expanded to pick up anything not covered

00:34:47 expanded to pick up anything not covered off by the other site managers do you see that there yes i do so at this point on the project so this is november 2015 what was envisaged in

00:34:58 november 2015 what was envisaged in terms of the expansion of your role essentially you would say that i took over the number one site manager role right yeah so i was the head of the team

00:35:09 and were you more experienced than the other site managers uh i believe it was yes and more senior to them within riding not in terms of tight job title no right are you all

00:35:21 tight job title no right are you all site managers oversight manager as well right i see well i have managed other site managers on jobs previously yeah so the one at worthing i had a site manager and a site assistant reporting to me yeah

00:35:34 reporting to me yeah now what did you understand when you joined the project about ryden's contractual obligations on the grenfell project were you given any information about that um no but one of the first things i did when i went up there was to read the

00:35:45 when i went up there was to read the specification and to try and read as much of the paperwork as i could do okay so when you say read the specification was that the nbs specification yeah normally most jobs i've worked on they're called ers or employees

00:35:57 they're called ers or employees requirements yeah on this job boat called the nbs spec yes yeah and did you read any other parts of the contract um in terms of the actual contract documents i don't remember reading them

00:36:08 documents i don't remember reading them specifically but i wouldn't be interested in that i was interested in what the specification was yeah but just to be clear you didn't have a briefing from anybody anyone senior to you about what the

00:36:20 anyone senior to you about what the scope of the contract was but the scope of contract was to deliver the specification right i see yeah um now we've we've been provided with the contract documents by

00:36:31 contract documents by by ryden and i just want to ask you just some key

00:36:35 some key questions about in general what you knew were you aware of ryden's responsibility for design on the project as well as for the construction you were

00:36:46 as well as for the construction you were and were you aware that it was ryden's obligation to complete the works in a proper and workmanlike manner and in accordance with good building practice yes he's on all contracts yeah and were you also aware that ryden

00:36:58 yeah and were you also aware that ryden was to complete the works in compliance with the contract documents and other statutory requirements including the building regulations yes

00:37:06 and would you have taken that to have included complying with british and european standards where appropriate or appropriate codes of practice if it's specified in specification then yes

00:37:18 yes now there's just one clause i want to take you to and it'll become evident later

00:37:21 later why we want to look at this now if we can pull up the contract this is ryd3094235 at page 64. so this is the jct

00:37:33 at page 64. so this is the jct design and build contract and if we could just blow up the top of that and i want to look at clause 2.2.2

00:37:44 and i want to look at clause 2.2.2 so that's the second paragraph the one below the one that struck out do you see that there yes and if we just read that it says the contractors shall not make any substitution for any materials goods or workmanship specified or

00:37:56 goods or workmanship specified or described in the employer's requirements um or if not specified or described in the employer's requirements as set out in the contractor's proposals or in the specifications revised and returned to the contractor

00:38:07 the contractor by the employer in accordance with the contractor's design submission procedure set out as schedule 1 without the prior consent not to be unreasonably withheld or delayed in writing of the employer um

00:38:20 in writing of the employer um that's a slightly long clause but the key point there is were you aware that the contractor was not to be making any substitution of materials

00:38:30 materials from that showed in the specification in the employer's requirements without the prior consent in writing of the employer um i've not read the jct contract but i'm unders

00:38:41 i'm unders well aware of the principle that yes we are contracted to do what was in specification and but were you aware that if you were going to change anything in that specification say any materials

00:38:53 in that specification say any materials that have been specified were you aware that then there was a need to get the prior consent of the employer um no

00:39:05 and were you also aware in general that ryden was fully responsible for the design of the works including the coordination and integration of the designs and the interface between different design elements

00:39:16 elements yes because we were the main contractor yeah

00:39:22 and so i think it does follow from your answers but do you agree that in order to ensure that the work complied with the building regulations someone at ryden would have to analyze the specification

00:39:33 the specification which form part of the employer's requirements together with the drawings provided by the architect

00:39:40 yes now were you aware of someone in ryden um analyzing the specification during the project

00:39:50 project and checking compliance with the building regulations uh not with ryden's but i always understood my experience of design and build is that we then subcontract the designs part out to the

00:40:01 subcontract the designs part out to the architect

00:40:01 architect and the other specialist designers so take the cladding who would you think was or who did you think at the time was responsible uh hollies were responsible for the

00:40:12 uh hollies were responsible for the cladding but i also knew that sudoe were the lead designer so they had a sort of overarching role at the top of the design but to your knowledge nobody else within ryden was checking

00:40:24 ryden was checking that the designs were compliant with the building regulations not like that no

00:40:33 and when you were reading the nbs specification you said that you you went to site and you found a copy of it and had a look at it what was the purpose for which you were reading it uh to understand what

00:40:44 reading it uh to understand what we would then to build my job is to understand the plans and specification and deliver that to the client yeah were you also looking at the standards

00:40:52 standards that um i don't necessarily read every word there i'm trying to take out what i need to know so i always underwear that well aware that every job trying to do is to a good standard

00:41:03 standard yeah but if there was a specific standard that was specified for example for the external works which you were responsible for site managing would you ever go and have

00:41:14 site managing would you ever go and have a look at that that that standard further documentation no no

00:41:25 now so as we've just discussed ryden was under a duty to ensure that the works were carried out in compliance with the contract documents which included the employer's requirements i just want to look at

00:41:35 look at some of the other project particulars which form part of the contract can we go to

00:41:41 go to [Music]

00:41:43 [Music] tmo10041791 at page 86.

00:41:50 so these were the project particulars which form part of the contract between ryden and the tmo do you remember ever looking at these during the time you were the site manager

00:42:00 manager as i said i read it but i would be looking for things specific to my job so more than materials and everything else particularly these i say they are general stuff so

00:42:11 i say they are general stuff so it wouldn't be something i'd particularly be looking at in detail yeah i understand can i just take you to um i think three references within this just to ask you um about whether you were aware of the

00:42:22 um about whether you were aware of the general points that was being made in these documents can we go on and look at page 128 and i want to look this is under the a32 management of the works

00:42:34 management of the works and we see at the top of the page under clause 110 it says supervision and it says their general except responsibility for coordination supervision and administration of the

00:42:45 supervision and administration of the works including subcontracts do you see that there and was that your understanding when you worked on the project that that was ryden's responsibility uh yes and i've pretty much summed up my

00:42:56 uh yes and i've pretty much summed up my sort of job title as well that's yeah yeah the site manager that's what i do

00:43:01 what i do yeah thanks that's helpful um and moving down the page uh towards the bottom

00:43:08 bottom we see a heading there you go building control

00:43:11 control and it says there the contractor will be responsible providing additional construction stage information to building control do you see that there yes i do and was it in fact part of your role

00:43:22 role to be providing that construction stage information to building control in practice

00:43:27 practice uh in practice no it's generally my my experience is architects coordinated building control sorry provide the drawings that's what we sort of a part of their package or

00:43:38 we sort of a part of their package or their design that's what they do i see so i mean we're going to come on and look at your interactions with building control when they visited the site but just to be clear you didn't think it was part of your role to be providing

00:43:49 was part of your role to be providing construction stage information to them um no that's not true if they ask for stuff

00:43:56 stuff i will provide it yeah but generally to start with it's the architect who provides the drawings so but if i'm asked for something i will try and provide do my best to provide it for yeah yeah

00:44:11 now if we go on to page 135 within this document

00:44:15 document in the bottom of half of the page there you see a clause 170a which is headed manufacturers recommendations and instructions do you see that there and it says

00:44:26 do you see that there and it says general comply with manufacturers printed recommendations and instructions current on the date of the invitation to tender do you see that there do

00:44:38 and you can see at the end it says agreement certified products comply with limitations recommendations and requirements if relevant valid certificates do you see that there yes as well

00:44:50 that there yes as well now in general was it part of your role to check whether the manufacturer's recommendations and instructions had been complied with on-site

00:45:01 um yes in some respects yesterday yeah so you might see it as part of your role to check what the manufacturer's recommendations were say for the installation of a particular product yes

00:45:12 installation of a particular product yes i would

00:45:12 i would sometimes if necessary i will look at manufacturers recommendations yes to make sure that we're installing it correctly yeah and make sure it was installed as per those recommendations yeah was that role

00:45:23 yeah was that role something you also expected the clerk of works to be checking yes on this project yeah again well i'm going to ask you a little bit more about their role on the grenfell project later

00:45:34 their role on the grenfell project later so taking the cladding system and as an example

00:45:38 example did you check the instructions for example for the installation of the celetex

00:45:43 celetex insulation i remember specifically checking it but i do remember reading the brochure at one point because one of the first questions i asked was

00:45:52 asked was about whether or not you needed silver tape

00:45:55 tape and i remember checking the product literature for that ah okay great yeah um i'm going to come back and ask you about that specific thing uh into your course

00:46:06 that specific thing uh into your course um so you did have recourse to look at the zelitex brochure at that point um i don't think it's a brochure i don't remember she's been looking there was a couple of bits on our system or in our file folder and i went through them yeah

00:46:18 them yeah what about the cider eyes cavity barriers do you remember ever checking the instructions for the installation of those cavity barriers no i don't remember that now staying with this document these

00:46:30 now staying with this document these project particulars if we go on to page 141

00:46:34 141 of this document about halfway down there we go we see a paragraph 630 ahead in quality control and it states their procedures establish

00:46:47 and it states their procedures establish and maintain to ensure that the works including the work of subcontractors comply with specified requirements and then records maintain full records keep copies on site for inspection

00:46:58 keep copies on site for inspection and submit copies on requests do you see that there yes and then there's various items identified for the contents of records below it

00:47:06 below it including for example the nature and extent of non-conforming work found do you see that there yes

00:47:16 now was it part or any part of your role to ensure that records were kept including the matters set out in this clause

00:47:27 clause quality control records it would be part of that but yeah we have a quality control

00:47:31 control sort of inspection regime at ryden's essentially called snagging so the snagging process was was was the quality control process and

00:47:42 was was the quality control process and it was just that was it yes did ryden have any written policies or procedures in place to ensure that these quality control obligations were complied with

00:47:53 obligations were complied with as i said this well it's in part of procedures is snagging procedures right and can you help us as to how records were actually kept on site where there'd been

00:48:04 actually kept on site where there'd been quality control inspections um i say the snags i took were recorded and kept in well for snacking folder on in the job folder and hard copies

00:48:16 on in the job folder and hard copies kept on site um don't remember hard copies i say i generally scan a snag sheet and then we'll email it out to the subcontractors as required i'm just

00:48:29 as required i'm just touching on the the point about um maintaining and ensuring that the works including the work of subcontractors comply with specified requirements um who within ryden had responsibility

00:48:40 um who within ryden had responsibility for ensuring that the roles and responsibilities of subcontractors were clear and adhered to i'd say we all have a role in doing that that's what we do we manage sub-contractors yeah

00:48:51 sub-contractors yeah do the work for us yeah they have a responsibility for themselves to do the works accordingly as well so you saw that as part of your role as site manager

00:49:00 manager yeah now um just want to ask you a couple of things about what other others in ryden have said about the role of site manager um so um gary martin has said

00:49:12 um so um gary martin has said if we pull this up this is ryd

00:49:19 at page two

00:49:22 at that paragraph eight

00:49:26 he says that um during my time on the project simon o'connor was senior site manager and simon lawrence was contracts manager

00:49:35 manager both left during the project and steve blake assumed the roles steve also brought in david hughes as site manager to oversee the project do you see that there yes i do and i think that chimes with an answer you

00:49:46 think that chimes with an answer you gave earlier but was that how you saw your role that you were overseeing the project

00:49:51 project that's what my role became it wasn't what i was told when i went up there so as i said possibly you could say that one of the biggest holes that needed to be filled was the number one role and i assumed that wrong

00:50:03 assumed that wrong did you feel when you got onto site that that number one role hadn't been being filled properly um it became clear within a week or so i say

00:50:14 say what i've always done when i go onto a new site i look for drawings documents look at the program and see what job entails essentially and yeah

00:50:23 yeah from chatting to the other site managers they all had their roles and responsibilities and it also i don't know which is where i am but very soon i became the client go

00:50:30 go to or go to claire very quickly started coming to me yeah and so i guess that became my role yeah

00:50:37 yeah just a couple of points claire that was claire williams yes sorry the client yes clear the client and when you say it became clear i think you've said

00:50:45 said within a couple of weeks or within a week or so it became clear precisely what was it that became clear to you um

00:50:51 to you um well just uh yeah there was a space to be filled or an overarching role at the top

00:50:58 top so and i had fulfilled that role before at ryden so did you feel that the site managers that were on site needed more direction and supervision no they were aware of what they were

00:51:09 no they were aware of what they were doing but they had never been told to run the site and to my side no gary had run a site previously with another manager underneath him i wasn't sure what jason had done so also

00:51:19 also although i'd left ryden's and i said my thing i'd come back to him i had fulfilled that role previously yeah

00:51:26 yeah so you felt that someone was needed to quote manage the site yes um

00:51:34 yes um and simon lawrence has said in his witness statement if we can look at this this is ryd3094220 on page eight um

00:51:46 on page eight um paragraph 44 starts at the bottom there and he says my role included regular visits to site to guide and support the site delivery team project manager site managers and then he says the site delivery team is based

00:51:59 he says the site delivery team is based on site and ensures the day-to-day works are managed safely and correctly to the design do you see that there yes

00:52:06 there yes so again would you agree that your role in sh

00:52:09 in sh included ensuring that the works were managed correctly to the design yes yeah it always does right as a site manager

00:52:19 manager um and you've confirmed it was part of your role to manage the subcontractors yes and we know that your remit included the

00:52:27 the the exterior and the cladding that's correct isn't it uh yes and does that mean it was your responsibility to be managing harley once you consider managing i don't

00:52:38 once you consider managing i don't manage harley's i supervise them on site and

00:52:41 and i help manage sort of the interaction they have with the other sub-contractors the residents as well but i don't manage harley's

00:52:49 harley's i see yeah

00:52:53 did you consider it any part of your supervision of harley to ensure that the works that they were carrying out complied with the building regulations um specifically i would say that they

00:53:06 um specifically i would say that they should know the regulations especially subcontractor they should know them as well i don't know them as well as they do so i was making sure that their work was to a good standard and the standard that had been

00:53:17 standard and the standard that had been well accepted by will be accepted by the client i see uh well the client and building control and the clicker works yeah so just coming on then to your

00:53:28 yeah so just coming on then to your knowledge

00:53:29 knowledge of the building regulations and associated guidance so we we know that the contractual obligations of ryden included ensuring compliance with the building regulations and we know that your role included

00:53:41 and we know that your role included dealing with building control offices on site that's correct isn't it well and so did the other site managers role sinclair yes yeah they will show them wrap the building control officer around their partner works or sometimes if they're

00:53:52 partner works or sometimes if they're not around i'll show him around as well but yeah so how would you describe your knowledge at the time of the building regulations um it comes from experience it's

00:54:04 um it comes from experience it's something i've never been taught so it comes from experience would you have known what were the functional requirements were in the building regulations in schedule one

00:54:15 the building regulations in schedule one should no no do you know well the functional requirements is to create a safe building is my understanding so yeah so if anyone had asked you broadly what the different

00:54:26 had asked you broadly what the different functional requirements were that you had to comply with for the building regulations would you have been able to give them an outline no in terms of outline no at the time you were working on the project

00:54:41 so does it follow that um within ryden you've not ever attended any courses or training on the building regulations no not what i remember

00:54:52 no not what i remember they would always come up in certain sort of safety modules but not in any great detail

00:55:02 so you weren't familiar for example with part b for external fire spread the building regulations were you aware in general that there was a requirement that the walls should

00:55:13 a requirement that the walls should adequately resist the spread of fire um in that terms no i was not aware i would say nobody shouldn't build an

00:55:24 i would say nobody shouldn't build an unsafe building but in terms of specifics

00:55:26 specifics no i wouldn't rather give you the words yeah

00:55:30 yeah um now there's practical guidance which is issued to help in the interpretation of the building regulations by way of approved documents have you ever heard of the approved i

00:55:42 have you ever heard of the approved i have heard and have you ever read any of the

00:55:44 the approved documents only one i remember reading is i think it's part m to do with disabled thing

00:55:51 thing that's the only bit and that was because as i said the first project i managed was eight disabled flats so i was looking for some information to do with them at the time yeah so i read it but they wouldn't be

00:56:02 yeah so i read it but they wouldn't be the first documents i would go to i would go to an hbc book which i think is sort of a more practical

00:56:08 practical for my job it's a more practical document far more sort of descriptions and

00:56:12 and sort of measurements it's into a bit more detail which is what i'm after yeah yeah um so does it follow from your answers that you hadn't read and you weren't familiar with

00:56:24 read and you weren't familiar with approved document b on fire safety at the time you worked on the grenfell at the time no i was not aware

00:56:33 were you aware that there was just in general terms that there was special guidance

00:56:37 guidance for buildings above 18 meters at the time

00:56:41 time no so you weren't aware for example about guidance surrounding the the insulation and at the time i was not aware so you weren't aware that there was particular fire performance that

00:56:52 particular fire performance that insulation over 18 meters was recommended to achieve

00:57:02 had you ever heard of the phrase class naught

00:57:05 naught yes what did you think that meant um i'd heard of it in terms of paint finishes in communal areas and i knew it was

00:57:13 was as far as i was concerned it was with fire resistance and had you ever heard of class naught in connection with a a cladding system or a cladding panel no but going back to reading the

00:57:25 no but going back to reading the specification i noted in it that the fire resistant it said class zero so when you say reading the specification do you mean the nbs best the nbs

00:57:34 the nbs sorry yes okay and do you remember which part you were reading uh specifically i think that was in the cladding section right okay

00:57:43 okay [Applause] were you familiar at all or did you have any knowledge about um fire stopping and cavity barriers uh from my experience previously on site

00:57:55 uh from my experience previously on site as and when it's shown on the drawings had you ever looked at any specific guidance that helped you about for example where cavity barriers should be placed in an external wall um

00:58:06 placed in an external wall um specifically no i don't remember looking at it but to me they would always be shown

00:58:11 shown on drawings yeah so you would rely on the

00:58:14 the drawing to show you where the barriers needed where the cavity barrier should be

00:58:18 be were you aware that the guidance in adb required cavity barriers to be provided around window openings no i wasn't

00:58:29 had you ever worked on a project before which would involve cavity barriers around windows in masonry things where you have a cavity construction with an outside or inside skin a brick yes

00:58:40 inside skin a brick yes cavity barriers go around windows and on dimple frames i say so before where they're showing on the drawings i'll put them but if they're not shown on the drawings i didn't know no no okay we'll come back to that in a

00:58:53 no no okay we'll come back to that in a moment

00:58:55 moment um so you weren't aware of the guidance in approved document b or in for example diagram 33 about cavity barriers not specifically no i was not aware

00:59:10 were you aware of guidance suggesting that cavity berries had to be tightly fitted

00:59:15 fitted um to a rigid construction a mechanically fixed in position um i'd expect them always to be properly fixed yeah

00:59:25 so during your time on the project were you aware of any other industry guidance that provided commentary on external wall constructions including for buildings above 18 meters you said earlier that as i said nhbc

00:59:38 you said earlier that as i said nhbc guidelines that's sort of more of a document i would go to to fulfill my role and look at if there's any sort of details or queries that would be my first port of call yeah

00:59:49 that would be my first port of call yeah do you have any recollection of reading any specific guidance documents industry guidance documents about the cladding when you worked on the grenfell project so for example would br one three five

01:00:01 so for example would br one three five mean anything any bca building control alliance guidance

01:00:07 guidance or what about the cwct no no um so nothing about cladding curtain walling no i didn't read any of those documents

01:00:19 read any of those documents [Applause]

01:00:23 had you heard of the phrase limited combustibility no at the time you worked on the project no so that wouldn't mean anything to you

01:00:33 and were you aware that industry guidance made it clear that cavity barriers are required around windows uh no i wasn't aware okay

01:00:47 so just finishing this topic you've mentioned you talk about this in your statement

01:00:52 statement about what you would expect in terms of compliance can we look at paragraph 21 of your statement this is ryd three zeros 94213 at page five

01:01:07 and you say there in terms of compliance with the building regulations from a site manager's point of view when a drawing is issued to us through any of the design team if it is a construction issue drawing

01:01:18 if it is a construction issue drawing then the work shown on the drawing should be compliant with the building regulations and then you say the ongoing and completed works with the subject of inspection by rbkc building control surveyors and the

01:01:31 rbkc building control surveyors and the two clerks of works employed by kctmo we've got that there yeah

01:01:36 yeah and so does that mean that you expect that any construction issue drawing will be compliant with all the relevant building regulations

01:01:50 yes and you talked about the drawings that were approved for construction in the case of the external wall was that harley's drawings which had been stamped approved for construction yes they were what drawings i was using

01:02:02 yes they were what drawings i was using for the cladding yeah i was looking at

01:02:08 so did you ever think it was part of your role or anyone else's role within ryden to be checking if a drawing was in fact compliant with the building regulations um no i would expect the designers to ensure that a drawing is correct

01:02:21 ensure that a drawing is correct and compliant so i say as i said at grenfell it was harley's and it was the architect

01:02:27 architect yeah because harley's drawings also came out of the sections which all the big sections that the architects had yeah

01:02:36 had yeah now simon lawrence has said in his witness statement if we can just look at that this is

01:02:42 ryd3094220 at page 10. i just want to look at paragraph 51.

01:02:52 in the i just want to look at the very last sentence it starts five lines up in that paragraph 51 he says although i have no expertise or qualifications as a designer

01:03:04 qualifications as a designer my experience as a construction manager meant that if i saw something that was obviously wrong then i would challenge that and i would have expected the rest of the ryden team

01:03:15 have expected the rest of the ryden team and indeed all of those involved in managing the project to do the same so i just wanted to check was that your understanding in terms of your role that if you saw something obviously wrong

01:03:27 something obviously wrong you were expected to to challenge that uh yes if my knowledge said that it was wrong and my experience sort of passed i'd come across and i thought it was wrong then i would

01:03:39 thought it was wrong then i would challenge it yes yeah okay now just in terms of your introduction to the project um if we could go back and look at paragraph

01:03:49 paragraph 22 of your witness statement ryd yep thank you and we read this earlier so you made it clear that you were being told

01:04:00 told on monday the 19th of october that you needed to help out at the tower from the next day and you also say a little bit further on that you were made aware that simon lawrence the ride and contracts manager

01:04:12 lawrence the ride and contracts manager was leaving ryden so it looks like you were asked to join the project at very short notice literally one day's notice is that correct that's great

01:04:23 do you know why that was was it that mr lawrence was leaving unexpectedly or do you think the suddenness of your appointment was just to

01:04:32 to due to maybe a lack of forethought um i don't know in that respect you'd have to ask steve but it's not i has happened to be in the past where i had one day's notice

01:04:43 past where i had one day's notice so so

01:04:47 so so that didn't seem surprising to you i mean uh no it's happened before yeah all of a sudden sometimes you get a call saying i need you somewhere else tomorrow

01:04:56 tomorrow okay yeah um now a paragraph 26 of your witness statement

01:05:03 statement um if we could look on at that page six um you say in that first sentence by the time i first ascended attended site

01:05:13 site the cladding was well progressed and i would estimate 75 to 80 percent complete do you see that there can you just help us as to what you mean by complete

01:05:24 by complete as in when i got there uh a lot of the cladding panels were already in the building so the majority installation was there there was a lot done yeah and when you say the clouding powers you mean the aluminium

01:05:36 powers you mean the aluminium cladding panels on the on the exterior exterior yes that was already done yep um how did you estimate the percentage you came up with there 75 to 80 percent i must say i estimated on the

01:05:47 80 percent i must say i estimated on the time

01:05:47 time process but probably looking back on what other people have said possibly that was an overestimation but i would say certainly over two-thirds was done

01:05:55 was done it was well underway yeah yeah that's what i was about to ask you so if we just look at a couple of contemporaneous progress reports i think what we might see is it was more like somewhere between sixty and seventy

01:06:07 like somewhere between sixty and seventy percent

01:06:07 percent so yeah it was well over two-thirds yeah two-thirds three-quarters let me just show you um those if we go to ryd zeros

01:06:26 this is the site progress report and it's dated october 15 and if we look at the very bottom of that page there's a table do you see that there

01:06:37 there's a table do you see that there and it's got external facade works and plan progress 100 actual progress 60 and it looks like it's around 10 weeks behind schedule do you see that yes i do

01:06:49 behind schedule do you see that yes i do again was that your understanding when you got to site that the cladding was um progressing slower than had been planned i

01:06:56 planned i was aware it was behind schedule yes yeah

01:07:00 yeah and we can see it says in the first bullet point below that table external cladding progressing slower than needed due to insolvency do you see that there was that harley's insolvency yes it was

01:07:12 was that harley's insolvency yes it was yeah

01:07:14 yeah um and then there's just another report i was going to take you to this is

01:07:22 ryd3057623 at page 11.

01:07:30 this is progress report number 16 which reports on progress from the 12th of september 15 to the 16th of october 15. and if we can go on to page 14

01:07:43 and if we can go on to page 14 we see a table

01:07:46 and you can see there we've got external works

01:07:50 works it says facade grid work installation and windows that's 95 complete i think is that correct can you see that yes and then facade cladding panels it seems to be saying 70

01:08:01 to be saying 70 out of 100 do you see that there and 16 weeks behind do you see that yes i do yeah

01:08:08 yeah so i think you've agreed that based on these reports perhaps the cladding was not quite as advanced as you've said in your witness statement i certainly would say it was definitely around two-thirds

01:08:19 around two-thirds so it was as i said well underway yeah i mean places it was finished with the finished panels on the building yeah i understand now in terms of previous fires uh in

01:08:30 in terms of previous fires uh in residential buildings when you started work on the project did you have in mind that there had been um previous fires in in high-rise buildings in in the cladding

01:08:41 buildings in in the cladding um when i started the project the only one i was aware of was latino house but i must admit i did not know that as a cladding fighter i was under where it was complementation failure that there was failure is in the base of

01:08:53 that there was failure is in the base of the void above the ceilings yeah so that i think they've come across in a fire safety training yeah so i did not know it was a cladding fire yeah that's helpful yeah um

01:09:04 yeah that's helpful yeah um so had you heard of any other domestic fires in the uk in high-rise buildings in the cladding no

01:09:11 no um or any international um fires when i started then no no were you aware that in january 2012 a fire had incurred at the tableau

01:09:23 fire had incurred at the tableau house on the chalcott's estate project uh yes i was aware of that because i'd spoken to steve a couple of times about it

01:09:31 it so i was aware there was a bad fire there and also he told me that cladding panels had worked fine there there was no issue with them

01:09:38 with them right he specifically said that to you actually can you remember when he said that to you um i used to catch a train home with steve sometimes yeah and we had conversations afterwards yeah and he said that they'd they'd warped

01:09:50 said that they'd they'd warped but they certainly hadn't caught fire yeah

01:09:53 yeah were you ever made aware of an incident report prepared following the fire which had emphasized the importance of cavity barriers around the windows no i wasn't

01:10:05 now if we look at paragraph 24 of your witness statement if we can go back to that on page six you say this you say in my first week on site i spoke to simon lawrence

01:10:16 site i spoke to simon lawrence a number of times who was the ride and contracts manager for the project about the cladding and the m e systems simon also showed me around the project simon left ryden on the friday of the week that i became involved

01:10:29 week that i became involved do you see that there yes i do um can you recall uh what your discussions uh about the cladding involved um it was to do with i say the progress

01:10:40 um it was to do with i say the progress of it more i know i went up the mast climber i don't know which one but with simon to have a look i thought he introduced me to the installers and i think he also introduced me to ben hart or ben bailey yeah supervisor for them

01:10:54 or ben bailey yeah supervisor for them um but specifically no i don't remember exactly what those conversations were obviously i was new to the job at the time

01:11:00 time and trying to take an awful lot in yeah was there anything particular you remember him emphasizing about the cladding other than the progress that the fact that nobody had any issues with

01:11:11 the fact that nobody had any issues with it right he's that's what i remember he's everyone was happy so

01:11:16 happy so and it's like the standard had been set so i keep to that standard and it would be fine and when i'm saying no one had any issues do you mean i mean building control i knew building a child had been up the

01:11:27 knew building a child had been up the mast climbs with them and i knew that clerk works made regular trips up the mast climbs as well to look yeah and was that you're understanding that he was talking about the quality of the installation

01:11:39 the installation oh yeah i would say the quality yeah did you ask him any questions about the cladding at this time i would hope i did but i don't remember specific questions

01:11:49 questions i'm trying to clean his knowledge so yeah i wouldn't be able to do that unless i asked questions but i don't remember

01:11:56 remember specifically what questions they were do you remember him telling you uh about what products were being used in the construction of the cladding um talking about the cladding panels i knew

01:12:08 talking about the cladding panels i knew i was told that acms and i knew i could see the insulation with solid insulation what did you understand the acm to mean uh well

01:12:16 uh well uh whatever i can't remember don't made now but yeah but it was a sandwich panel i didn't mean on the outside and plastic on the inside right yep so it was basically yeah

01:12:27 right yep so it was basically yeah aluminium composite material and what did you know about the insulation at that point over it was solid insulation but it was celatex

01:12:35 celatex yep i say i know it's solid insulation

01:12:41 and did you have any discussions with him about compliance with the building regulations anything along those lines specifically no i don't remember any specific conversations i say but i would have asked him about

01:12:52 i say but i would have asked him about building control and saw his visits yeah and his name and took contact details yeah now paragraph 26 just below that of your witness statement in the last five lines

01:13:04 witness statement in the last five lines i just want to pick up what you say there you say in order to better understand how the cladding system worked and so that i could form a view as to where we were relative to the program i reviewed the drawings considered the

01:13:17 i reviewed the drawings considered the program of works and i spoke to the cladding installers taff mark osborne and bears graham berry and ben bailey the project manager from harley facades do you see that there yes i do

01:13:28 i do now can you recall what kind of drawings you considered concerning the cladding at this stage uh well it would have been the harley's drawings

01:13:37 drawings yeah so they would look there but i also look at the architectural drawings as well

01:13:41 well so the section drawings i'd look at all the drawings relevant to the work that i was doing yeah and where did you physically find those where where they generally on drawing clips in the site office or they also are on

01:13:52 site office or they also are on saved on our system as well right management system and was it your practice to look at them in hard copy or electronically um both i say yeah both yeah did you ever

01:14:06 both yeah did you ever look at harley's subcontract and the specification that they've been asked to achieve

01:14:11 achieve uh no but i was aware and i'd say my understanding always on previous sites the

01:14:16 the designers sort of go back what i considered back to back with us on design and build contracts so we would pass on the design responsibilities and not everything we were contracted to do onto them yeah

01:14:28 we were contracted to do onto them yeah i just want to show you one document that form part of harley's subcontract if we can go to art 50914

01:14:38 this is part of the specification curtin's consulting so it's the structural engineers that put this together

01:14:45 together march 1st of march 2013 do you have any recollection of ever looking at this document

01:14:51 document i believe i did but i don't remember any specifics from it it's all quite a high technical document yeah yeah just within that if we can look on page 11

01:15:02 look on page 11 of the document

01:15:07 [Applause] and um at paragraph 7.1.13 it says there the system should comply fully with the recommendations of the bre report and then there's a bre report there do

01:15:19 and then there's a bre report there do you remember noticing that the system they were installing had to comply with certain bre guidance i don't remember that specifically

01:15:28 and then on page 13 7.2.4 we can see there it says the cladding system shall meet the requirements of rain screen clouding as specified in and

01:15:39 rain screen clouding as specified in and then it's got the standard for walls with ventilated rain screens and various other um section h92 was the section in the invest specification

01:15:50 invest specification yeah correct but did you note that they had to meet the requirements of the standard for walls with ventilated range screens the cwct 1998 standard um i don't remember seeing

01:16:01 1998 standard um i don't remember seeing that but i do remember the cwct bit in the

01:16:04 the nbs specifications i remember it in this document i do remember it in the nbs yeah so obviously you were there to supervise harley's

01:16:15 you were there to supervise harley's work

01:16:16 work um what documents did you think you needed to read in order to be able to do that effectively uh to do my job effectively is the plans and specifications

01:16:30 now we saw earlier that you also said in paragraph 26 that you spoke with employees of osborne berry and harley and can you recall what what you discussed with osborne

01:16:41 what what you discussed with osborne berry that's taff mark osborne and bez graham berry do you recall what you discussed with them specifically no but it would have been in general terms as in sort of the process they're going to i

01:16:53 sort of the process they're going to i say a lot of these or sometimes it's what they need from me to be able to do their work yeah ensuring that yeah the bits are riding to manage the access the towers things like that though all

01:17:04 the towers things like that though all the things so it was in specific terms oh no sorry non-specific examples yes i understand and what about with ben bailey of harley do you recall very very similar

01:17:15 do you recall very very similar yeah conversations so when i'm not there as i said i knew my role was to finish it off so what did they need from me

01:17:22 from me to finish it off and say then it would be sort of programming how long do they think it's going to take him to finish when can i start offering up the facades or to the people

01:17:34 offering up the facades or to the people who needed to see it had building control around the clerk of works yeah you said in that paragraph of your witness statement that the phrase you used was that you had these conversations in order to better

01:17:43 better understand how the cladding system worked yes and what were you particularly interested in in terms of how it worked the building process so there's a process you go through so we

01:17:54 process you go through so we say in that respect putting the rails on fitting the insulation putting the clamping panels on very simplistic terms but to me it was a process that they had to go through yeah to get finished

01:18:05 go through yeah to get finished the product so the layering pressure yeah yes

01:18:10 yeah yes yeah so can we just look at an email um from ben bailey to you um this is

01:18:20 ryd3060605

01:18:25 so this is um ben bailey to you 8th of december 2015. so a couple of months after you've started on site and it's headed scratch is in the cladding and he says dave as per our

01:18:37 cladding and he says dave as per our conversation i can confirm that light surface scratches will not adversely affect the performance or long longevity of the cladding panels where the scratch has not penetrated through

01:18:49 the scratch has not penetrated through to the core do you see that there can you recall um the conversation that you had because he says as per our conversation that came about after one of our inspections

01:19:00 inspections up towers and i believe it was the first one we did with building control and the clerk of work so it might be the first time i took them up there yeah they noticed scratches on there and they were right at the top of the building but they were asking for us to

01:19:12 building but they were asking for us to change the panels and i said well could we repair them they're not going to be visible sort of 24 stories up a little scratch like that and the building control and clerks would rather they were swapped

01:19:23 would rather they were swapped so this was ben sort of saying to me look we think we could repair them and it's not going to affect their performance in any way shape or form yeah

01:19:31 yeah so he was say what i saw little scratches yeah during that conversation did you inquire or were you made aware that the cladding was made of acm containing a combustible polyethylene

01:19:43 containing a combustible polyethylene core

01:19:44 core i did not know it was combustible so you just thought it was plastic is that right general terms yes yeah it was yeah it's two sheets of aluminium held together sort of glued

01:19:55 aluminium held together sort of glued together with a plastic inside or was it pe did you know did you have you heard the phrase pe at the time was that um i don't believe i knew it was p no no more just yeah

01:20:06 more just yeah plastic inside so you didn't know the middle was polyethylene i don't remember specifically i might have been told it that wasn't material but it didn't register

01:20:17 register in that when mr bailey mentions the performance here and he says it it won't adversely affect the performance what did you understand him to mean by performance

01:20:28 him to mean by performance a scratch on the outside is not going to affect

01:20:31 affect its performance so but performance in terms of what what um well just more in terms of longevity but it wouldn't i say get in there possibly i don't know if aluminium rusts or

01:20:42 aluminium rusts or so yeah it would still lasts as long as it was supposed to i believe it was around 25 years yeah so do you think there was any part of the discussion that that focused on fire

01:20:53 discussion that that focused on fire performance no certainly it wasn't any discussing fire performance at that time yeah now at the time you started work on the project were you aware of different kinds of cladding panels available in the uk

01:21:04 cladding panels available in the uk market

01:21:05 market um my well my i remember the one i talked about the nursery that was just a solid aluminium panel yeah and but no simply in terms of like all the products out there no i wasn't aware

01:21:18 the products out there no i wasn't aware but i was aware that it was the same panel being used that was used at chalcott's and ferrier so i was aware that this was the same panel that had been fitted to all the other

01:21:29 that had been fitted to all the other six tower or high rises that rydens had done

01:21:32 done how how did you know that who made you aware of that um i think they came through steve yeah and it might also have been through harley's because i know also harley's did um the chances take yeah so prior to

01:21:43 did um the chances take yeah so prior to this project had you ever come across metal composite materials with different layers and a different core i don't remember using them on any jobs previously yeah

01:21:54 previously yeah so

01:21:56 so um and were you aware that panels were also available with fire retardant cores which were less combustible no it wasn't rare at all

01:22:09 were you aware at any stage that the rain screen cladding being installed at the tower included combustible materials not at all

01:22:20 were you aware at the time of working on the project that if a fire occurred in the building which led to significant flames being ejected from the window the cladding panels would likely

01:22:31 cladding panels would likely fail because they would melt and fall off the building was that something that you were ever made aware of um i had one conversation with taf about it but my understanding or what i got in my head

01:22:41 my head was that the actual fixings had the lug system

01:22:45 system which you hooked the panel on that little bit there would fail and just through the heat in the same way that i was told at chalcott's they'd warped so i think it was more a warping that i expected or

01:22:56 warping that i expected or the plastic might lose a little bit of strength

01:23:00 strength when you say you had one conversation with taff about it was were you then just describing the conversation yes it was about the fixings and whether yeah he's mine saying you say yeah but these

01:23:10 these the way he was held on it kind of hooked over the right side i'm doing motions yeah it hooked over the rails but those little bits of metal would possibly fail or warp and that

01:23:21 would possibly fail or warp and that might make them fall off yeah did you ever discuss the fire performance of the cladding panels themselves with anybody

01:23:34 with anybody um kingspan cool firm k15 i want to ask you some questions about about that now um so as part of your role as site manager were you aware

01:23:45 manager were you aware um of what materials were being stored on site at any particular time uh yes yeah and at any one time were quantities of insulation boards stored on site for use behind the

01:23:58 boards stored on site for use behind the rain screen panels and do you did you have any knowledge at the time were you aware of what the lead time was for ordering that insulation um

01:24:09 that insulation um he wouldn't i say that was harley's they were supply and fit or design supply and fit contractors so it would be their responsibility to make sure that it was there in a timely manner

01:24:20 manner so i wasn't not really aware of how long it took them to get there or if i had been told i don't remember it yeah

01:24:29 now um we know that celetex fr 5000 was specified for use on the tower in the nbs specification do you remember noticing that when

01:24:40 that when you read the nbs spec but we know that what was actually installed was celotex rs 5000 were you aware of that at the when you went uh yes because on our

01:24:51 when you went uh yes because on our system we had the data sheet for the rs 5000 and i was told that i think i was told that it was a wrong note in the specification i think he's something like fr stands for flat roofs or something

01:25:02 for flat roofs or something so rs down to the range screen so i was aware that what we were fitting was what it was designed well it was being used for what it was designed to do and when you say you were aware of that who who made you aware of that

01:25:14 who who made you aware of that i don't remember that i'm afraid one of the conversations i'd have had or one of the many conversations that i had taught you in the timelapse project but i think it was quite early on yeah i don't know so you noticed that the insulation was

01:25:26 so you noticed that the insulation was different and the the explanation you were given was that was just a yes mistake in the mbs that's it so he's specific yeah specifications or a little yeah let's just look at paragraph 55 of

01:25:39 yeah let's just look at paragraph 55 of your witness statement now on this topic so this is ryd3094213 at page 10.

01:25:49 and you say there in december 2015 or january 2016 i discussed with ben bailey and agreed the use of kingspan as harley's had difficulty obtaining

01:26:00 as harley's had difficulty obtaining celetex from their supplier as far as i was concerned kingspan and celitex are similar products with similar insulation properties as far as ben and i were concerned it was a

01:26:11 far as ben and i were concerned it was a like-for-like swap of insulating material

01:26:14 material i told steve blake and the clerk of works john white of this use of kingspan installation material so you say that and i just want to ask you some questions about this so was this kingspan insulation material

01:26:27 so was this kingspan insulation material kingspan

01:26:27 kingspan cool firm k15 is that what you're talking about yeah oh yeah because i'm pretty sure ben gave me a data sheet for it right okay yeah um

01:26:38 right okay yeah um did you read the data sheet he gave you oh yes but what i was specifically looking for was the insulating value i knew why the celotex was there i knew it was to try and achieve 50 better than the

01:26:50 to try and achieve 50 better than the building regulations in terms of insulating properties so i was asking ben were celitex and kingspan

01:26:56 kingspan similar insulating properties i had a very similar u-value i see yeah what exactly did ben bailey say to you about this swap but it was like like i'm pretty certain he gave me a data sheet

01:27:08 pretty certain he gave me a data sheet which said the u-value was the same or very very similar and did you ever discuss fire performance of the k-15 with ben bailey

01:27:19 performance of the k-15 with ben bailey or with anybody else about the can you never discuss the performance of the insulation no do you remember what quantity of insulation was said to be involved in this

01:27:28 this swap at the time um no but i thought it would be kind of carrying on to finish it off because i knew he said he was having supply issues so

01:27:38 and do you remember who harley ordered that insulation no i don't that wouldn't be something i would be aware of or need to know now was that k15 already on site

01:27:50 now was that k15 already on site when you had this discussion what was he saying i believe he was asking my permission to use it yeah going forward so that would be to order it and then bring it on to site in the future yeah um were you aware that quantities

01:28:03 yeah um were you aware that quantities of kingspan k15 had previously been ordered before you arrived at sites not aware at all no and i never saw it on the building before in my sort of time going up the

01:28:14 before in my sort of time going up the last commerce when mr bailey had that discussion with you did he give you the impression that this was the first time this swap had occurred certainly that's why i thought he was asking permission yeah can we just look at some of those

01:28:25 at some of those um purchase orders previously just to make this point good um so this is it um if we look at sig six zeros 12

01:28:36 this is um a harley purchase order it's dated the 26th of may 2015. we can see that on the top right hand side do you see that there

01:28:47 hand side do you see that there and it's to sig um the company um sig insulation and then we can see in the main

01:28:58 and then we can see in the main description it says kingspan k15 insulation board 12 000 times 24 000 times 80 millimeters 96 sheets there you can see that

01:29:09 96 sheets there you can see that and then underneath it says delivery by vehicle with moffitt 4th of june 15. and then it says site has restricted entrance

01:29:17 entrance um do you see that there and we can see it's in the context of grenfell tower because on page 3 of this purchase order if you just go it says at the bottom and he says ship too yes it does and

01:29:28 too yes it does and and just be clear there's a site plan given at grenfell tower just a few pages later

01:29:33 later um so so that's the first purchase order we've seen which was some time before you arrived on site in may 15. and then if we can look at another one this is

01:29:44 another one this is sig six zeros 13 and if we look at the bottom of page two sorry this is the actually this is the email

01:29:54 email chain that uh leads to this that's right so if we look at the bottom of page two yeah this is jill walker to ben bailey third of june 15th sorry 26th of

01:30:08 bailey third of june 15th sorry 26th of may 15.

01:30:09 may 15. and he she says hi ben uh she's at sig we can see that from the bottom the delivery we arranged for the third will now go on to the 10th celetex have pushed out the lead time on this product

01:30:21 pushed out the lead time on this product exclamation mark exclamation mark and then

01:30:24 then if we go up to the top of page two we see ben bailey's response he says are you joking and then he says is k15 held in stock at

01:30:36 and then he says is k15 held in stock at the same thickness is the delivery for this week still on do you see that there and then bottom of page one

01:30:49 um and she says yes delivery for this week's okay they have production problems apparently k15 80 millimeters is not stock but has a three to five day lead time do you see that there absolutely

01:31:02 time do you see that there absolutely and then at the top of page one

01:31:07 he says as discussed please see the purchase order attached for the k-15 order and then he says this quantity should be taken off the total purchase order on the celotex order issued on the

01:31:18 order on the celotex order issued on the 25th

01:31:18 25th of march 15. do you see that there yes and that was the purchase order that we looked at

01:31:24 looked at um so i take it from your answers before you had no knowledge of any of this happening no knowledge at all i do not remember seeing it on the building at all well that was my next

01:31:35 building at all well that was my next question do you do you remember ever seeing

01:31:37 seeing king's band call for k-15 but a lot of the boards up on the thing were on branded as well so yeah i didn't notice it all right what percentage of the boards

01:31:48 all right what percentage of the boards would you say were unbranded i don't know but you remember some of them being unbranded

01:31:55 but presumably when you got to site i think you said earlier a lot of the cladding panels were on there so it could be a good chance it was already behind panels which had been fitted

01:32:03 fitted yeah there's a another um order of k15 i just want to take you to this is at um six zeros 19.

01:32:14 um six zeros 19. this is on the 10th of september 2015.

01:32:26 this is on the 10th of september 2015. and um we can see this is an order to us a different company ccf and it appears to be 49 units of kingspan k15 rain screen board do you

01:32:38 of kingspan k15 rain screen board do you see that there yes harley facades and it delivered to grenfell tower in the middle yep um again so you didn't have any knowledge of this

01:32:49 you didn't have any knowledge of this order

01:32:50 order no as i said prior to that conversation with ben

01:32:53 with ben i bought everything on that building with celtx

01:33:00 now i think you've made clear that the basis on which you considered them to be like for like product similar products was because of their u-value properties is that right yes um and also from experiences

01:33:12 yes um and also from experiences i've done lots of sort of in this board in

01:33:16 in masonry cavities and it's always either kingspan or celitex just as far as i'm concerned they are very i know them as solid insulation boards

01:33:25 boards and they are very very similar as i said and they

01:33:28 and they proved almost by the same thickness with the same new value so it does the same job

01:33:33 job and did you look at any k-15 literature at this time i remember ben giving me the data sheet to basically prove that the u-value was the same that's what i was after and do you recall looking at the fire

01:33:44 and do you recall looking at the fire performance on that data sheet that wasn't something you looked at no did you know that kingspan is a phenolic foam whereas the rs-5000 no as i said i need them with solid insulation

01:33:57 need them with solid insulation yeah um did you ever consider the fire safety performance of k-15 specifically no but as

01:34:08 specifically no but as every job i've ever done has had that product be it celitex or kingspan in some quantity be in the walls be in rusby on discrete did you consult any of those who'd

01:34:19 did you consult any of those who'd specified the celetex in the first place for example did you consult studio e over the swap no i did not um x over did you talk to x over

01:34:30 over did you talk directly or anybody you know i've talked directly to kingspan themselves about it uh not that i know of unless ben spoke to them and did you ever request a

01:34:41 spoke to them and did you ever request a copy of the bba certificate for the king's band so you don't remember ever seeing a bba certificate

01:34:58 it i think it follows from your answers but i want to ask you nevertheless did you ever ask yourself whether the k-15 product was of limited combustibility at any point in the project i've never ever heard insulation

01:35:10 i've never ever heard insulation described in terms of combustible or non-combustible it's always just been solid or quilt insulation that's how i know them yeah do you remember looking at an labc

01:35:21 yeah do you remember looking at an labc certificate for kingspan

01:35:32 now going back to paragraph 55 of your statement

01:35:37 statement on page 10 you say in the last sentence that you told steve blake and john white of the use of this kingspan insulation material can you remember when you told them that

01:35:49 can you remember when you told them that i believe it was soon afterwards after i'd had the conversation with ben yeah just to let them know that yeah there would be a different material on there and i explained to steve the reasons why

01:36:00 reasons why to do with supply issues yeah and i might have said the same to john i remember having a conversation i don't remember specifics of it and you don't remember them saying to you well actually it's already been used we know that as i said i wasn't aware it

01:36:12 we know that as i said i wasn't aware it was on the building before i essentially said yes or agreed with ben

01:36:17 ben and did they ever ask to see any information about the k-15 no i remember no we've already discussed and i showed you that specific clause do you remember

01:36:28 that specific clause do you remember 2.2.2 of the contract that said that ryden shouldn't substitute any materials without the prior written consent of the employer the tmo was the tmo ever

01:36:40 employer the tmo was the tmo ever consulted about the intention to use the k-15 uh no unless john told him but john was working for the tmo yeah yeah

01:36:51 yeah yeah and did you ever i think it follows but did you ever submit reasons for the proposed substitution no i did nothing on writing on this and did you provide john white with any

01:37:03 and did you provide john white with any documentation about the k-15 i don't remember doing so no did you ever tell building control at any time

01:37:12 any time that some of the insulation was k15 i don't remember no so you don't remember whether building control ever were provided with

01:37:24 control ever were provided with any specification or written material about k-15 on the project um certainly i never gave them so i would presume that no they never did yeah danny can you we'll come back to

01:37:35 yeah danny can you we'll come back to look at building control later why did you not think to tell building control that you were going to be using a different insulation because like i said going back to my knowledge at the time it was very very

01:37:46 knowledge at the time it was very very similar is it's almost whoever whichever celotex or kingspan which everyone gets specified by the designer is what goes on the building i say they are so

01:37:56 are so similar to me from my knowledge and experience but i didn't see it as an issue it's determined i've just got one or two

01:38:04 or two questions on this topic if i finish this topic and then we could break yes thank you so if we can go to 57 of your witness statement and look at ryd three zeros

01:38:15 and look at ryd three zeros 942 yep sorry you've got it there um so paragraph 57 you say there i was involved in the choice of plasterboard to the walls of the entrance atrium

01:38:26 to the walls of the entrance atrium and you say i discussed this with mark dixon of sdp who suggested duraline instead of fireline plasterboard as duraline was more resistant to impact but still had the same fire rating

01:38:37 but still had the same fire rating this change of plasterboard was approved by the architect do you see that there yep and we can see that from an email if we go to the email this is sca3013533

01:38:50 if we go to the email this is sca3013533 on page one if we look at the bottom of page one there's an email from you to neil crawford of the

01:39:02 email from you to neil crawford of the 9th of november that's it at 9 40. and he says hi neil thanks for visiting site on friday it was good to meet you and then if we go over and you confirm

01:39:15 and then if we go over and you confirm with him then following walk around i'd like to confirm the following agreements and if we look at point four we can see it says their dura line board to communal entrance lobby with a skim

01:39:27 communal entrance lobby with a skim finish do you see that there so we can see that in this case you did seek approval from the architect before changing the materials installed on site can you explain why if

01:39:39 installed on site can you explain why if you did that for this material you didn't do it in relation to the k15 swap specifically i was discussing with neil at the time it was part of the walk around the conversations we had about

01:39:50 around the conversations we had about finished to the lobby area um no i can't explain why didn't it okay sorry i can't respond in relation to the k-15 yeah thank you so it just goes back to

01:40:02 yeah thank you so it just goes back to experience that they were very similar in my mind yeah it was almost a similar or approved thank you gentlemen i think that's a good moment yes please right well mr hughes we're

01:40:13 yes please right well mr hughes we're going to have a short break now and give everyone a chance just to stretch your legs and so on uh while you're out of the room please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything related to it all right and we'll come

01:40:25 related to it all right and we'll come back at 25 to 12 please all right we'd like to give the our show she'll look after you

01:40:40 all right 25 to 12 please

01:58:42 right could you ask mr hughes to come back in please thank you

01:58:58 all right there's twos yes you're ready to carry on yes i am good thank you yes thank you just a couple of follow-up questions on the k-15 before i move to a different topic um i think you said uh in your evidence

01:59:09 um i think you said uh in your evidence that um

01:59:11 that um you believe that mr bailey was asking my permission to use it do you remember oh well permission to change it yeah yeah who actually gave that permission did you understand that to be part of

01:59:23 did you understand that to be part of your role as site manager did you permission's the right word in more agreement to use it but you talked about um speaking to mr blake about this to steve

01:59:34 speaking to mr blake about this to steve blake were you asking him if he was content for the change and for his permission or did you understand that you could give that permission you were just informing steve blake of what had happened um i guess in that respect i would say

01:59:47 um i guess in that respect i would say that i am taking i was giving permission yes he should and i was asking if he could use it and i said yes yeah as long as it complied with the u values

01:59:55 values and it was a similar product yeah that's helpful

01:59:59 helpful um turning to a different topic now i want to ask you about the window infill panels okay um so principally i want to ask you about the the white window infill panels do you remember between

02:00:10 between the main windows on the tower now just can you confirm that the window frame installations were carried out by harley and osborne berry that's great yeah and this included the

02:00:23 that's great yeah and this included the aluminium window panel system including those window infill panels didn't it yes and it also included the um the section of the windows which housed the extractor fan

02:00:34 the extractor fan for the kitchens yeah um can we just look at a harley drawing on this topic this is har403953 this is a drawing date of the third of

02:00:46 this is a drawing date of the third of march

02:00:48 march and we can see it's marked approved for construction and it's had various revisions we can see at the bottom there um and i just want to ask you what we

02:00:59 um and i just want to ask you what we see

02:01:00 see it's not it's not very clear but i think we can find it is that those two panels we were just talking about are marked p1 and p2 on this drawing if we zoom into the middle

02:01:11 into the middle um hatched section in the top left hand corner we see p1 for the main big infill panel and then p2 for the

02:01:22 big infill panel and then p2 for the little panel can you see that there i do and would you have understood when you were looking at this drawing that that was referring you to the harley specification to their own specification notes uh yeah all the little notes on there

02:01:34 uh yeah all the little notes on there would refer you back to a specification or part specification did you yourself ever make any investigations as to which materials made up the p1 and p2 panels

02:01:45 made up the p1 and p2 panels no i did not um so you didn't review harley's specification notes for these two panels um no but i would like to state that when i took over or when i went up to grenfell

02:01:57 took over or when i went up to grenfell as far as i'm saying pretty much all of the windows had been fitted yeah can we just look at those specification notes this is har3017762

02:02:14 and if we look on the left hand side of that page

02:02:18 that page we can see six items down we get the glazing p1 panels and below that we see the glazing p2 panels can you see those yes

02:02:29 panels can you see those yes in the middle of the page and for p1 panels we can see that the the outer is a 1.5 millimeter aluminium skin and the core is a 25 millimeter

02:02:40 skin and the core is a 25 millimeter styrofoam do you see that there and then for the p um ii panel we can see it's got a 25 millimeter kingspan tp10 rigid insulation do you

02:02:53 kingspan tp10 rigid insulation do you see that there in the core yes yeah now um so looking at this now um is your recollection that you didn't see this at

02:03:04 recollection that you didn't see this at the time of the project i would have read this but i don't remember noting that as i said before i would expect it by the time it got to me to be compliant with building regulations yeah

02:03:15 with building regulations yeah um did you know what styrofoam was at the time

02:03:20 the time i'd heard of it it's sort of like egg cup kind of thing i guess yeah i had heard of it did you know that it was a trading name for extruded polystyrene insulation

02:03:32 polystyrene insulation so does that mean that you didn't know when you were on site that those window infill panels had extruded polystyrene in the

02:03:38 in the inside um specifically like that no

02:03:47 so you didn't ever raise any concerns about the use of styrofoam or extruded polystyrene in these locations no because i thought by the time it got to me i was sure it was compliant with building regulations had

02:03:59 compliant with building regulations had someone said to you in those panels by the way we've got extruded polystyrene um maybe someone you know chatting on site says it to you what would you have made of that would it of course if it complied with this

02:04:11 it of course if it complied with this and they were telling me it complied with what's on that piece of paper i would have made nothing of it yeah now the p2 panel um we just saw that the specification is

02:04:22 um we just saw that the specification is for the

02:04:22 for the kingspan tp10 rigid insulation um now if we can look at a purchase order just before you came on to site if we look at h a r four zeros two four

02:04:35 we look at h a r four zeros two four seven

02:04:36 seven seven

02:04:41 this is ben bailey on the 11th of september 2015 to acp panel systems and he attaches a purchase order he said

02:04:53 and he attaches a purchase order he said please see purchase order attached to replace the one placed under harley curtain wall limited now in administration and i just want to look at the purchase order which was attached to that so that's har five zeros four

02:05:06 har five zeros four four five dated the tenth of september

02:05:13 and so that's the purchase order and if we look at um so it says please supply the panels as per attached schedule you see that in the middle and if we look at page six

02:05:26 we can see a schedule and at the top we see panel spec p2 that it's got a core of 25 millimeter kingspan tp10 rigid insulation do you

02:05:37 kingspan tp10 rigid insulation do you see that there yes do you know um i know you came on site in october so a month or so after this um whether tp10 rigid insulation was ever delivered

02:05:50 tp10 rigid insulation was ever delivered to site and present on site i don't remember seeing it no specifically noting it though so the inquiries experts found from their site inspections after the fire that the panels used at

02:06:03 after the fire that the panels used at the p2 location where the extract fan is didn't have a kingspan tp10 core but had a styrofoam core and were extruded polystyrene

02:06:14 core and were extruded polystyrene okay were you aware of that on the project they'd all been fitted by the time i

02:06:19 time i started on the project i see so you can't help us as to how we go from kingspan tp10 to the styrofoam in that location no i can't and you didn't ever check the

02:06:31 no i can't and you didn't ever check the fire performance of the p1 or the p2 panels

02:06:34 panels no no so i want to move on now to a new topic

02:06:39 topic a longer topic which is about site inspections okay um would you agree that there's a difference between supervising works and periodically inspecting works

02:06:52 inspecting works uh yes i would and would you agree that in the case of the cladding elements of the construction they're they're quickly concealed as work progresses on site

02:07:05 work progresses on site yes so would you agree that it was important to have regular supervision of such works to ensure that the works were being conducted um properly not

02:07:19 being conducted um properly not not always no because it's about a process that we can't watch at all times so you watch them at the start and then you have to at a certain point start or an element of trust that people are

02:07:31 or an element of trust that people are going to do what they are contracted to do

02:07:33 do yeah so if they've started off well and you're happy with that standard and all you can see you sort of super fighting during supervision you see they're maintaining that standard then i don't see that yet regular

02:07:45 then i don't see that yet regular supervision in terms of me seeing every single bit of insulation or vibrate behind there is absolutely necessary yeah and how did it work out on the grenfell project what was the distinction or was there a

02:07:56 what was the distinction or was there a distinction well to me a periodic inspection would be on a weekly thing would be like a regular clerk works i would call that a periodic inspection because it's on a weekly or two weekly basis yeah supervision is on a day to day and

02:08:09 yeah supervision is on a day to day and just

02:08:10 just managing or say supervising works managing the work very similar but to me and also periodic inspection would probably come under snagging he's done after a certain period when something is ready

02:08:21 something is ready yeah did you yourself have a period of time on site where you would say you were supervising like when you initially got to site and then you went to more of a periodic inspection regime

02:08:33 periodic inspection regime sorry which respect are you talking about here um the cladding in particular i was i'd say i was always supervising um harley's work they're managing it

02:08:44 um harley's work they're managing it they're putting on the building i'm kind of supervising it's recently sort similar managing supervising to me in very very similar terms it to me it'd be the same thing somebody said i'm supervising and managing

02:08:56 i'm supervising and managing very similar terms do you agree that a designer build contractor needs to have in place a rigid site supervision regime to ensure that all construction

02:09:07 construction carried out by itself or its subcontractors is compliant with the relevant designs drawings specifications etc

02:09:14 etc it would certainly help yes

02:09:17 can we look um at something that said in the ryden

02:09:20 the ryden company witness statement so we've had a witness statement on behalf of the ryden company itself if we can look at ryd3094236 at page 23

02:09:36 and if we can look at paragraph 35 under g

02:09:40 g there which is under the heading monitoring during the works so it says um ryden's role in refurbishment projects is that of main contractor typically this means it is also appointed as principal contractor

02:09:51 also appointed as principal contractor for the purposes of the cdm regulations this means that it has significant experience of discharging its duties in respect of the planning managing and monitoring of the construction phase liaising with its

02:10:02 construction phase liaising with its subcontractors this expertise and experience is encapsulated in the systems and procedures which ryden used and continues to use to monitor the work of its subcontractors which are in turn built on ryden's iso

02:10:15 which are in turn built on ryden's iso 9001 accredited project management system do you see that there absolutely

02:10:23 now were you familiar yourself when you worked on the project with ryden's iso 9001 project management system um i know they got 9001 and

02:10:35 um i know they got 9001 and yes so i was familiar with it didn't know

02:10:39 know every detail of it but i'm certainly familiar with it what practical effect did that have for you on site what what were you aware of in terms of procedures that you had to comply

02:10:48 comply before snagging inspections snagging inspections yeah and well i say he's also part he's i say you call it supervision managing but if i see anything wrong then i would note it and tell them not to do it yeah

02:11:01 note it and tell them not to do it yeah or make them change it were you aware of any written policies or procedures which reflected these 9001 project management systems sorry i don't understand how you mean

02:11:12 sorry i don't understand how you mean did you were you given any written policies or procedures about um project management systems a lot of it is on the rms so that is almost like our project

02:11:24 so that is almost like our project management system i think yeah i do know my way around that so i would go for it and that would give us the processes and the various forms that i would need to use to fulfill my duties

02:11:35 i would need to use to fulfill my duties so you would have specifically looked at policies and procedures on that rms would you

02:11:39 would you not all of them no not all the words but i knew how to operate within the rms or how the rms system worked but a lot of time when i say looking for a snag sheet we have a standard snagging

02:11:50 a snag sheet we have a standard snagging inspection sheet yeah i know where to find that yeah i understand about the snagging process and the inspection sheet we'll look at that okay were you aware of anything else that you had to be doing on site to comply with that

02:12:02 doing on site to comply with that project management system sorry i don't mean

02:12:05 mean what i understand you're you're saying i am familiar with our rms system yes okay um can we look at paragraph 86 of your

02:12:16 um can we look at paragraph 86 of your statement now this is ryd three zeros nine four two one three at page

02:12:21 page 19.

02:12:25 and i just want to look at the first sentence you say i was involved in the snagging

02:12:28 snagging inspection and handover of all of the exterior of the building do you see that there yep um now by the time you came on board grenfell

02:12:40 grenfell was between 60 and 70 complete we've seen that

02:12:45 seen that um who was responsible for um doing the snagging inspection and handover of the exterior of the building prior to you coming on to site um i'm not sure who's

02:12:59 coming on to site um i'm not sure who's i knew

02:13:00 i knew i think it was danny osgood was uh or looked after it for a while but i don't know

02:13:04 know all the people who so you didn't take over from somebody performing exactly that role

02:13:10 that role no so did you feel at the time that there was a new role that you were performing to be carrying out no i saw it more as a managing the harley so managing i say external manager or class it has yeah

02:13:24 external manager or class it has yeah now um in the paragraphs that follow um you have explained stage by stage what the snag in inspection and handover of the exterior would look like you've

02:13:35 of the exterior would look like you've explained the process and what i'm going to do is take you through that step by step and ask you some questions about it over the course of quite a few questions so we'll keep coming back to look at this part of

02:13:46 keep coming back to look at this part of your statement as we go through the process that you followed so just focusing then on step one to start with at paragraph 86.1 you say that

02:13:57 86.1 you say that i initially took john hoban john white and ben bailey up the mast climbers on the 11th of november 2015 to discuss what they required to see we went up the west and north

02:14:08 went up the west and north elevations at the time we went up the works were nearing completion but there were a number of panels not fitted yet giving them an opportunity to look at the fitting of the rails insulation and fire breaks they had a

02:14:21 insulation and fire breaks they had a couple of minor concerns about scratches and scuffs to the cladding panels we also discussed the process of striking the mast climbers and making good the cladding where the mast climber struts were fixed to the

02:14:33 mast climber struts were fixed to the building

02:14:34 building do you see that there so um i just want to ask you a few questions um so this was if we go back to the previous

02:14:45 this was if we go back to the previous page so this is on the 11th of november 2015

02:14:49 2015 where you took them up now was that the first

02:14:52 first occasion since you'd commenced working on site that you had inspected the cladding yourself no it wasn't the first time i've been up with mass climbers

02:15:04 and um were you aware that there had been a building control inspection in may 2015 prior to this oh yes i'd been told that building control had been up in mass

02:15:15 building control had been up in mass climates prior to my starting project and were you told anything about what had occurred on that building

02:15:21 building there were no issues he had flagged no concerns

02:15:25 concerns right um

02:15:30 so how much previous inspection had you done prior to this 11th of november 15 visit i'd been up and looked at it a lot and i'll say it was me getting to notice

02:15:41 i'll say it was me getting to notice what was on the building as well and essentially as i said it had already been started so i would say two thirds of it was already up there yeah but what understood my role was to make sure that

02:15:52 understood my role was to make sure that a similar standard was done if the client if the clerk works and building control we're happy the standard was up there to hand over the building and to get it passed at the end i would need to maintain that standard

02:16:03 maintain that standard yeah can you remember which areas you inspected did you go up all four facades i inspect i didn't say i was inspecting it i was going up there i was talking to the things i was also just familiarizing

02:16:16 the things i was also just familiarizing myself

02:16:16 myself sometimes it was specifically you'd go up there with i sort of to answer a query from taff or bez about yeah and it was just

02:16:27 or bez about yeah and it was just so it was me understanding the processes and everything else and just knowing what they needed of me as well and yeah if there had been any issues that i thought or areas that i thought

02:16:38 that i thought or areas that i thought were issues yeah did you inspect sorry you said it's not inspection but did you go and look from the

02:16:43 from the um outside and the inside no at the time i never went into the flats yeah until sort of you were just going up on there yeah i was i said i said my role at start was to do the cladding

02:16:55 my role at start was to do the cladding so yeah

02:16:56 so yeah did you identify any um defects or issues

02:16:59 issues with the cladding prior to this building control visit uh no not with the cladding i go back to what i told you earlier one thing i did notice that the gaps all the drawings on the installation boards weren't taped i

02:17:11 installation boards weren't taped i asked

02:17:12 asked taf and bears this question and they said that they didn't need to and that's when i went back and referred to the celetex

02:17:17 celetex i had a look at the celetex brochure to see if i could see anywhere specifically he says that the joins had to be taped and that was and i'm talking about joins between insulation boards yeah it was noticeable that drawing from when

02:17:28 it was noticeable that drawing from when the installation board went to the cavity barrier that was all taped right so i asked why sort of a joint insulation i'm sorry and i say i asked why the joints insulated in the installation board weren't taped

02:17:40 in the installation board weren't taped and they told me they didn't need to be and when you went and looked at the celotex

02:17:44 celotex yep data sheet what did that tell you about with the job i could see nothing on there anywhere that um said it needed to be taped so well i taped i mean a silver foil tape so it would look

02:17:55 so it would look similar to it's like a silver yeah an adhesive silver tape yeah did you notice that the edges weren't ever taped i did notice that yes

02:18:06 weren't ever taped i did notice that yes yeah

02:18:06 yeah and was that something you checked um yes

02:18:17 now had you identified any issues with the cavity barriers prior to that visit on the 11th of november 15. no

02:18:24 no [Applause] did you keep any record of what you'd seen on site up to that point oh no

02:18:35 now you said you say at paragraph 61.2 of your statement if we just look at that

02:18:41 that um this is on page 13.

02:18:47 you say there i requested that john hoban visit site to inspect the cladding on the 11th of november 2015 to discuss what he required to see to sign it off do you see that there

02:18:58 sign it off do you see that there um so um this was a visit at your request is that right not at theirs and was that the pattern that was then followed with building control visits were they at your request or at their

02:19:10 were they at your request or at their request

02:19:11 request uh mostly my request

02:19:14 in your experience was it usual for you to have to take the initiative arranging the site visits by building yes because i would be telling him that he was ready to inspect it was finished and i needed him to go up there and essentially say yes i'm

02:19:26 up there and essentially say yes i'm happy

02:19:27 happy because at the height of it i need to know that he was happy with it so i could start to strike the mask liners yeah it was the worst thing would be that if all his son said he wasn't happy with it

02:19:36 with it and we had to start putting them back up yeah

02:19:40 yeah now just looking at a document uh if we can go to ryd3056059

02:19:52 this is an email that you send to john hogan on the 30th of october 2015. so not long after your arrival about 10 days after you started work on site

02:20:02 site and you say hi john thanks for calling me back today and then you say as discussed it would be great if you could make a site visit on tuesday afternoon

02:20:09 afternoon whilst my director steve blake is on site i'd like steve to be involved in our chat about the outstanding structural information you require offers to satisfy building control so we

02:20:20 offers to satisfy building control so we can achieve final sign off do you see that there yes i do um so is it right that this email followed a call that you'd had with john hoban yes you did and during in

02:20:33 john hoban yes you did and during in that

02:20:33 that call is it right that you talked about outstanding structural information which building control required uh yes because i say it was something steve asked me to do was make contact with him as part of my

02:20:44 with him as part of my job and to just ask him if there was anything outstanding see me and steve were picking up from uh where simon simon had left off so it was if there was any information he needed and

02:20:56 he needed and this was essentially the start of the process of handing the building over yeah and what exactly did he say what was the outstanding structural information he hadn't received the structural

02:21:08 he hadn't received the structural calculations and he needed them were you surprised at that that this is your first contact with the building control officer and you find that he's not yet had all the

02:21:19 you find that he's not yet had all the necessary structural information um no at the time i didn't feel surprised by it

02:21:28 by it wasn't this a bit late in the day to be considering something so fundamental as the structural calculations you could say but i don't know if he'd had it and just hadn't reviewed it and

02:21:39 had it and just hadn't reviewed it and didn't know where it was i just he i say i've

02:21:42 i've very similar to what i always do asking if there's anything they need of me yeah but this didn't strike you as as unusual or no or concerned unfortunately

02:21:56 do you agree that ryden in its coordination role should have sent those calculations to the building control officer by that time from my understanding studio either ones

02:22:07 from my understanding studio either ones um

02:22:08 um sort of managing the building control process so it would be something that they

02:22:11 they would have sent to him so you would have expected them to have sent that but i knew that studio we were managing the building control process or the building regulation progress and did it give you any cause for concern that the project might

02:22:23 concern that the project might thus far not be being run in an orderly way

02:22:27 way no

02:22:30 when you sent this email to john hoban asking him to make the site visit the following week did you know that mr hoban's previous site visit had been on the 15th of august 2015 and that that visit was only the

02:22:43 2015 and that that visit was only the second visit that he'd made since the beginning of the year no i did not know that was there ever any discussion at any stage on site amongst the ryden team about

02:22:55 amongst the ryden team about the lack of attendance by mr hoban on site

02:22:59 site no like i said earlier i'd been told that building control had been to site a number of times it hasn't when necessary and was fine with the work so far yeah

02:23:10 was the frequency of site visits by building control on the project in line with your previous experience on other projects um no i would expect building control to appear at least on a monthly basis i

02:23:22 appear at least on a monthly basis i thought they think they're called frequency

02:23:23 frequency visits yeah but yeah if um normally if you haven't called them in for something to inspect something then they will turn up on a frequency visit yeah

02:23:33 yeah did you ever ask rbkc building control about that and say you know i would normally expect you to be here no i said i wasn't aware that it had been so infrequent

02:23:44 it had been so infrequent now if we can look at ryden's progress report going through to mid-november this is

02:23:51 ryd3057876 this is ryden's progress report 17 and we see at the bottom that it's reporting on progress between the 17th of october 2015 and the 13th of november

02:24:04 october 2015 and the 13th of november 2015. do you see that yes and then if we go to page five of the document it shows the progress of the facade works

02:24:12 works and what it says there is uh initially facade grid work insulation and windows are is 97 complete do you see that there yes then the facade cladding panels

02:24:24 yes then the facade cladding panels 85 complete and it says west elevation due to be snagged you can see that for both those and then it also says the crown detail was 100

02:24:35 detail was 100 complete all-round in the box below do you see that there

02:24:41 now during your inspection with john hoban and john white on the 11th of november

02:24:46 november you've said in your statement that you went up the west and north elevations we looked at that before and can you remember which levels on these elevations did you inspect how how high up did you go

02:24:58 how high up did you go you've gone to the top yeah and would you systematically inspect every level um when we did the inspection with them sorry i'm

02:25:06 sorry i'm confused which one i'm talking about this is the

02:25:14 yeah and would you have done that for both the west and the north face for all the levels yes yeah as far as i remember we went right to the top of both mass climbers

02:25:25 right to the top of both mass climbers now you also said in that part of your statement that there were a number of panels not fitted yet at that point can you remember where those were where they were in a particular bit of the building uh no i can't

02:25:40 would you agree that on this occasion john hoban and john white would only see a small area of the insulation and cavity barriers um on this visit those without panels

02:25:51 um on this visit those without panels fitted yet yes and was there ever an inspection from the inside as well uh as far as i'm wearing not at that point yeah can you recall whether john hoping would

02:26:02 can you recall whether john hoping would have seen any branding on the insulation to show that it was celetex as i said there was quite a few unbranded boards but i don't remember yeah do you ever

02:26:13 but i don't remember yeah do you ever remember

02:26:14 remember discussing the type of insulation with no i don't don and was any k-15 installed at that point in the area you looked at i don't remember seeing it no i'm sorry

02:26:26 remember seeing it no i'm sorry i'd like to say that i'd have noticed if i did but and did mr hoban inspect the cavity barriers at that time that's why i took him up there at that point because from my point of view trying to

02:26:38 because from my point of view trying to hand the building over if i had presented it to him completely finished and he said i'd never seen the cavity barriers

02:26:44 barriers then i'd have to strike well stop that inspection take some off so he could see them

02:26:48 them so the idea was to take him up there so he could see part of the buildings which was still in progress so he could see the cavity barriers and the insulation behind yeah that was part of that first inspection to make sure

02:27:00 inspection to make sure that yeah we wouldn't have to take any step work backwards and can you recall whether he would have seen both

02:27:07 seen both vertical and horizontal cavity barriers during that inspection certainly horizontal i can't confirm vertical um yeah and what about the area around the

02:27:19 yeah and what about the area around the windows

02:27:20 windows um without cladding panels installed would he have seen some windows without the acm panels kind of boxed around the windows trying to remember now i don't know yeah

02:27:33 trying to remember now i don't know yeah i think

02:27:33 i think possibly he

02:27:38 where the windows butted up to the columns that was one of the columns were one of the last panels to go on so they concentrated on the bits the flat bits between the windows first and the columns were one of the last pieces to

02:27:50 columns were one of the last pieces to go on

02:27:51 go on so i can't confirm but i would say that possibly

02:27:56 yeah and and did mr hogan raise any concerns

02:28:00 concerns during his no as i said from the emails you've seen that the main concern was to do with scratches on the panels and the performance in terms of longevity at the panels yeah i appreciate you saying that was

02:28:11 yeah i appreciate you saying that was the main concern were there any others you can recognize otherwise i probably would have noted it and me and ben would have asked ben for confirmation yeah so let's just go back

02:28:22 confirmation yeah so let's just go back to your

02:28:22 to your your witness thing where you're explaining what the process was that was followed

02:28:26 followed if we can go back to page 20 of your main statement

02:28:31 and look at the next part of what you say you say there then harleys would snag their own work prior to offering it to ryden ben bailey did the snagging and sent the

02:28:42 ben bailey did the snagging and sent the sheets to me i did one of the pre-hand over snags of the finished exterior on the north elevation

02:28:49 elevation as ben bailey could not make it to site do you see that there

02:28:56 now um i just want to look at what ben bailey has said uh about harley's uh own process of inspection before the cladding panels were fitted this is um if we go to har three zeros one zero

02:29:10 if we go to har three zeros one zero zero

02:29:10 zero six zero at page four

02:29:18 this is paragraph thirteen of his statement

02:29:22 statement now i'm going to take you to several bits of this but i think it would be helpful and in fairness to you for you just to read this paragraph to yourself just for a moment it goes over the page so signal when

02:29:33 it goes over the page so signal when you've got to the end of the page

02:30:12 okay i've got to the boss yeah

02:30:49 okay i've read it so if we just go back um to that first um part of the paragraph yes thank you and picking up four lines down

02:31:02 and picking up four lines down and you say um i remember that before the panels were installed i went up the mast climber and conducted a visual check of the windows the insulation the cavity barriers and the cladding rails in most

02:31:14 the cladding rails in most areas over each level of existing flats in the building and then he says i recall doing this on the north east and west elevations not the south

02:31:24 the south over the main entrance before building control inspection visits at the request of ryden to check the work was ready to be inspected do you see that there so he's saying that at ryden's request

02:31:37 so he's saying that at ryden's request harley would inspect the insulation cavity barriers and cladding rails before the building control check um is that your understanding of what what happened yes that's what should happen

02:31:48 yes that's what should happen subcontractors should respect their own work

02:31:50 work and they should give us confirmation that it is ready for us to inspect it as well

02:31:55 well yeah so okay first and foremost they have a responsibility to ensure that their own work is up to standards and is complies with the plans and specifications yeah and then over the page once he's

02:32:06 yeah and then over the page once he's explained what that check would involve he says i then took building control up to see the work if we can go on the next page five lines down i think sorry line six we see he says i then

02:32:19 sorry line six we see he says i then took building control up to see the work do you see that there yes and he in the second to last sentence he also talks about building control taking them up to see

02:32:30 building control taking them up to see what was installed um was that your understanding he talks there about building control going up to see what had been installed prior to the cladding

02:32:41 had been installed prior to the cladding panels being installed was your understanding that building control would be taken up before the panels were inspected um i don't know whether he's getting confused with building control and the clerk of works here

02:32:52 clerk of works here from my statement i remember we only went up twice with building control up and mass climbers and the ones i said in my statement so i took them up once when there were still some unfinished panels yeah and i took them up once with the clerk

02:33:04 and i took them up once with the clerk works at the same time to do what i would consider to be handover inspection yeah but the clerk works went up more often than building control did yeah and is it right that ryden itself

02:33:17 yeah and is it right that ryden itself wouldn't systematically check the insulation cavity barriers and cladding rails

02:33:21 rails before the building control check um this is too early i wouldn't necessarily check i have no records of me checking but making sure on visual checks that i was

02:33:32 making sure on visual checks that i was going up there and the standard had been set and maintained in the same standard so nothing in all of these times i went up there did i see anything which dropped below that standard yeah and how often were you going up

02:33:44 yeah and how often were you going up there

02:33:46 there very hard to say when i first started up there i went up there quite often getting to know him getting to know the trustee installers that the standard was being maintained a little bit towards

02:33:57 being maintained a little bit towards the end i started going up there less and less i was taking more responsibilities i also trusted that they were doing things correctly so towards the end more came up i started to go up there when there were specific issues

02:34:08 when there were specific issues with how to install the panels safely yeah so we had a couple of issues with mass climbers stopping panels being fitted easily and safely

02:34:19 safely and i started to go up there more often that was a lot more on the south elevation right yeah but just to be clear did you ever see it as part of your role to be going up and checking prior to building

02:34:31 going up and checking prior to building control coming on site and satisfying yourself

02:34:34 yourself that the the cladding rails the cavity barriers and the insulation had been installed correctly i testify myself that the standard was similar

02:34:44 similar to what was already been up there and as far as i was aware had been was the standard building control or nice not so building trouble more of a clerk of works that time was happy with

02:34:56 yeah so in terms of formal inspection no but

02:35:00 but every time i went up there i was looking to make sure that it was the standard that was acceptable yeah but in terms of formal inspection was it your understanding that harley was doing that itself in relation to its own work they have a

02:35:12 to its own work they have a responsibility to make sure their own work is to the plans and specifications yeah

02:35:16 yeah standard required what about after the building control visit would you or anyone else at ryden ever do a formal check after that uh well building control is same with any inspection is if they raise any snags or any

02:35:29 is if they raise any snags or any concerns

02:35:29 concerns then you have to go back up afterwards or once that work's been remedied rectified you have to go back up there and get that work signed off before you could take the mask arms down but that would only be if building

02:35:40 but that would only be if building control flagged anything is that right uh yeah building control and it's a very similar process for the clerk of works as well yeah that to me is what i call a client inspection clerk works

02:35:50 works client inspection build control inspection we pretty much did that at the same time on the first couple of mass climbers yeah now ben bailey states and we saw that

02:35:59 that in his statement at paragraph 13 that there was

02:36:02 there was no checklist or specification to inspect the areas against when harley was checking its own work prior to these building control inspections do you agree with that um

02:36:14 inspections do you agree with that um not i saw checklist but the snag list he gave to me to sort of say or his inspection sheet she

02:36:21 she go to me had things like epm cladding rails

02:36:24 rails so as far as i'm saying he'd given it to me saying that they had done everything accordingly but ryden didn't provide harley with a a checklist or a a list of things that needed to be

02:36:35 a list of things that needed to be checked

02:36:36 checked before building control will come on

02:36:44 given that you were relying i mean do you accept you were relying to a significant extent on the harley checks the harley inspections before building control came along because they designed the system as well

02:36:55 designed the system as well yeah so given that you're relying to a significant extent on harley's own inspections of the works would it wouldn't it have been sensible for you to have been to provided harley with some criteria

02:37:07 to provided harley with some criteria for the inspections to carry out um you could say that yes but so you could say that the drawings are the criteria

02:37:18 are the criteria plans and specifications are the criteria that they have to build to just check against all of the drawings so for example for the cavity barriers you didn't think of ever providing a specific list of

02:37:30 of ever providing a specific list of things that it was important to check about the cavity barriers when these inspections were being carried out no but visually i was looking that they were in the right place so they were horizontally you know vertically but they were clips

02:37:44 you know vertically but they were clips it's very much like what ben says where they were clipped and the clips were turned out so they held securely in place and that they were taped against the insulation yeah and in all my checks i went all my time i went up there i never saw

02:37:55 up there i never saw anything we said that they weren't were you confident at the time that harley were comprehensively and systematically checking the windows the insulation and the cavity barriers before that

02:38:06 the cavity barriers before that yes i believe they were competent i say in my assessment of them which i get in the first couple of weeks sort of dealing with them and were i'd seen i assess that they were competent yeah and they were doing it right now we

02:38:18 yeah and they were doing it right now we saw

02:38:18 saw in ben bailey's witness statement this is that back on um the previous part of paragraph 13 if we can go back one page where he says in the middle of that

02:38:29 where he says in the middle of that paragraph that he recalls doing the checks that he did on the north east and west elevations but not the south

02:38:37 south before building control inspection visits at the request of ryden do you see that there were you aware that the south elevation had not been inspected by harley um i think i talked about it in

02:38:51 harley um i think i talked about it in my statement where ben didn't turn up on time

02:38:54 time very much similar i'm trying to explain is i would expect harley's to give me some sheets saying that they had done their work properly and that they fitted it in accordance with the plans and specifications i then go up and check that i'm happy

02:39:06 i then go up and check that i'm happy with that

02:39:07 with that and then i then would say to building control and the clerk works i'm happy i've gone up there and had a look at it so please can you come up and have a look at it so i think what he's talking about in the

02:39:18 i think what he's talking about in the south he's the one that i say that i'd done

02:39:20 done essentially you could say his job i went up and checked it before he did yeah because i was saying i wanted to get the things done i wanted to get building control and clerk works up there so i could start the process

02:39:31 there so i could start the process of striking the mask climbers so that's what i think he's talking about the same thing i talk about where i went up and done one of their inspections for them and was that of the whole of the south elevation that would be basically a finished elevation so

02:39:43 basically a finished elevation so all the panels up there you say finished what i'm trying to get at is that the inspections that occur before the panels go on so of the cavity barriers the insulation etc

02:39:56 cavity barriers the insulation etc do you remember doing that for the south elevation um not as i said specifically not a formal inspection but it was done part of my trips up from there and certainly in the south elevation i

02:40:07 and certainly in the south elevation i went up there quite a few times because there was an issue where the mast climbers were stopping us fitting the panel safely so we had to do some alterations to the mast climbers to be able to fit the

02:40:18 mast climbers to be able to fit the panel safely right so just to be absolutely clear about my question you don't recall doing a formal

02:40:27 a formal inspection of the south elevation in terms of what was underneath the plan

02:40:33 now paragraph 52 of mr bailey's witness statement i just want to show you that as well

02:40:38 as well so this is har3010060 page 15.

02:40:46 he says that um sorry give me a moment here how are you doing would you like a short break

02:40:56 yeah right i think sorry everyone's getting a bit sort of carried away and moving quite quickly and i think short handwriters having trouble keeping upwards

02:41:05 upwards well that's that's both time speed okay i'm sure i'm just as much as full as as you are but um yeah um so here

02:41:16 yeah um so here um it said i was never provided this is ben

02:41:19 ben bailey never provided with the criteria for either building control inspections or those of the clerk of works nor was i issued with any reports they produced do you see that there

02:41:31 you see that there bottom of the page paragraph 52

02:41:36 and he says i assumed however that both building control and the clerk of works would be checking cavity barriers both their location and quality of installation do you see that yes

02:41:47 installation do you see that yes um do you agree that harley were never provided with any criteria for either the building control inspections or those of the clerk of works

02:41:58 works um in terms of criteria yes i agree they weren't specifically said we'd look at that but

02:42:03 that but harley's had responsibility design responsibility so they knew that building and what should have gone on there better than anyone they designed the system which went on building so but sorry i never provide anything

02:42:22 i don't i say building control never gave us

02:42:25 gave us any inspection sheet he went up and it was

02:42:28 was these panels we went up with building control

02:42:31 control and the clerk at the same time on the first two

02:42:35 first two mars towers i explained in my own statement

02:42:38 statement and in that respect the clerk of works basically took the notes because they were talking to themselves at the same time so

02:42:45 time so we came up with one list which you could say was a definitive clerk of works stroke building control inspection and ben came up at the same time there wasn't that many

02:42:56 wasn't that many issues on there and so i don't i don't remember giving them a list but we then went back up with the clerk and checked the bits which were on the list and they'd all been done

02:43:08 list and they'd all been done that's why i say i would never have struck the mask climbers without making sure that building control and the clerical works were happy but everything had been done yeah did you ever raise it as a concern

02:43:20 yeah did you ever raise it as a concern within ryden that you weren't providing um subcontractors with criteria for building control inspections or inspections by clerk of works no because

02:43:32 inspections by clerk of works no because it's not something i've ever done before yeah okay

02:43:38 now i want to look at this point at an email

02:43:41 email um between two building control offices that

02:43:45 that you wouldn't have seen at the time but i want to just ask you about it this is a rbk four zeroes one one two two

02:43:59 now this is an email from john hoban to john allen within rbkc building control and what it appears to be is john hoban

02:44:10 and what it appears to be is john hoban reporting back to john allen about what he's done on the 12th of january 2016. do you see that there yes i do so we're moving a little bit forward in time here

02:44:21 forward in time here and um under the heading grenfell tower he says this checking new external cladding to existing tower block identifying defects controllable

02:44:34 identifying defects controllable controllable under the building regulations on new panels brief introduction on fire breaks fire cavity barriers including location of where cavity barriers on cladding panels should be provided

02:44:46 on cladding panels should be provided for this particular project do you see that there yes i do so i think he's reporting back um and i want to ask you about in particular

02:44:57 i want to ask you about in particular about this brief introduction he talks about

02:45:00 about brief introduction on fire breaks fire cavity barriers including location of where cavity berries on cladding panels should be provided for this particular project do you know who gave um mr hoban that

02:45:13 do you know who gave um mr hoban that introduction about that topic um no i is it possible to see my statement around that time because she's getting a bit confused with visits

02:45:25 bit confused with visits yes um i'll find the reference for you in in just a moment yeah um i'll take you back to that i'll say i don't remember i remember the ones before christmas but i without reading

02:45:36 before christmas but i without reading my statement again which i need to see what i did after christmas with john right okay do you yourself have any memory

02:45:45 memory of giving mr hogan an introduction to for example the location of where cavity barriers

02:45:52 barriers i don't understand why he calls an introduction when we'd already been up the tower

02:45:57 the tower before christmas and looked at it yeah do you ever remember even prior to this

02:46:04 this um talking to mr hoban about where cavity barriers were to be placed in the in the system um specifically no i don't remember a conversation that

02:46:15 i don't remember a conversation that respect

02:46:18 [Applause] so um yes i think you mentioned this visit at 61.5 of your witness name let's go to that this is page 14 of your main statement

02:46:34 and you say you arranged for john hoban to visit site on the 12th of january 2016 at 9 00 am to go up the mass climbers again i followed up the meeting with an email confirming a conversation about

02:46:45 confirming a conversation about fire stopping to penetrations through walls and floors we didn't strike any of the mass climbers until each elevation from the 4th to 23rd floor had been approved by the clerk of works john white

02:46:56 john white do you see that there now i'm going to come back

02:47:00 come back to that follow-up about fire stopping and penetrations because i want to take you to some documents on that um but i mean you don't mention any discussion there about cavity barriers um

02:47:13 cavity barriers um so i mean i think we can take it from your evidence that you you don't think you briefed mr hoban no but

02:47:19 but i believe i'm not stated there that ben bailey would have come up with me or it might have been we'd always have gone up with one of the installers as well we always had to have one of the installers driving the mass climbers

02:47:32 installers driving the mass climbers yeah that i wasn't qualified and hadn't been trained to drive mass climbing so every time i went up it would be with someone from harley's or from [Music]

02:47:41 [Music] the installers yeah were you aware at the time of this visit and indeed on your first visit on the 11th of november 2015 that the design didn't

02:47:53 november 2015 that the design didn't provide for cavity barriers around the windows

02:47:55 windows no you weren't aware of that oh well i was aware that it wasn't on the drawings yeah so i didn't wasn't aware of a need to put them on a cladding system like that but i knew

02:48:07 that but i knew i said i know from the drawings that they weren't showing so did you notice that when you were looking at the drawings did you say to yourself oh i know we haven't got cavity barriers around the windows did that no strike you at all no it did not

02:48:19 no strike you at all no it did not strike me

02:48:24 did you ever discuss that the lack of cavity barriers around the windows with anyone else at ryden no or with anyone else at harley

02:48:37 no or with anyone else at harley um i don't remember any conversations like that no or with studio e

02:48:47 and what about with building control did you ever

02:48:51 you ever have any conversations with building control about there being no cavity barriers around the windows no as i said before i'd never had any conversations with anyone about

02:49:02 had any conversations with anyone about it because as far as i was concerned it was in accordance with the drawings

02:49:08 [Applause] so

02:49:12 so did you know that there was a difference between

02:49:15 between the horizontal cavity barriers that had been specified on the project and the vertical cavity barriers that had been specified yes um can you describe what the difference

02:49:26 um can you describe what the difference was for us to me the difference was the horizontal one sat back about 25 millimeters from the back of the cladding panel to allow for vertical ventilation the horizontally the vertical

02:49:37 the vertical cavity barriers should have butted up to the back

02:49:40 the back of the panel because there was no need for horizontal ventilation it was all about vertical ventilation were you aware that the horizontal had an intumescent strip that would activate to close the cavity

02:49:52 that would activate to close the cavity but the vertical was a solid block of material um which wouldn't

02:49:58 wouldn't intimacy did you ever check the vertical cavity barriers on-site

02:50:05 on-site do you remember not specifically no and do you ever remember showing building control the vertical cavity barriers on site

02:50:16 the vertical cavity barriers on site i s well as i said i don't remember if they were visible when i took building control up so no i don't specifically remember did you ever see any examples of

02:50:27 did you ever see any examples of horizontal cavity barriers fitted in the vertical position no can we just look at a photograph on this this is from dr lane's phase 1 report this is at blas

02:50:41 lane's phase 1 report this is at blas 608 at page 48.

02:50:48 and i want to look this is figure 8.52

02:50:54 and um we can see this is the cavity barrier labeled rh25

02:51:06 and it's installed in the vertical orientation isn't it yes can you see that and am i right that the green strip would be where the

02:51:18 green strip would be where the intermediate strip was uh i believe you're right yes so that's also been installed with the intumescent strip facing into the concrete into the building yes

02:51:30 did you ever notice workmanship like that on site with them being installed horizontal in the vertical position or indeed with the intumescent strip facing the wrong way um no

02:51:46 facing the wrong way um no if you had seen cavity barriers installed in that way what would you have done about it i'd have asked them or i hope i would have asked them to change it make it right

02:51:59 can you explain why this might have been found on site i can't explain no

02:52:08 could it be perhaps because there wasn't a regular and systematic inspection of the cavity barrier installation it could be

02:52:20 now just sticking generally with the topic of inspections but um i want to ask about the insulation um can we go to rbk three zeros five

02:52:31 can we go to rbk three zeros five two four seven eight

02:52:42 two four seven eight this is a document which records some of the site notes made by rbkc building control

02:52:48 control and what i want to do is go to page 3 and look in the middle of the page these are notes from a site visit carried out by john allen of rbkc building control on the 24th of

02:53:00 of rbkc building control on the 24th of march

02:53:00 march 2016. do you see that there yes do you remember a visit where you had mr allen instead of mr hoban yes i do yeah i think i asked for john to come in oh sorry i asked for john

02:53:12 to come in oh sorry i asked for john hoban to attend site and then john allen turned up yeah i think it's in your witness statement at paragraph 61.6 for the transcript now on the second line down he's

02:53:23 now on the second line down he's put this ensure thermal insulation completely fills voids do you see that yes

02:53:32 and we know that you emailed ben bailey of harley the same day on the 24th of march 2016. if we can look at that this is ryd3072239

02:53:50 if we look at the top of that page so this is you to ben bailey and you say i've just had a visit from building control and he's flagged a couple of issues with harley's work as follows

02:54:01 follows and you've got ensure thermal insulation completely fills voids mainly gaps insulation around columns do you see that there yes can you just explain for us what the

02:54:13 yes can you just explain for us what the problem was i think around the column some of the boards weren't cut as neatly as they could do to fill the void or fill right back to the building

02:54:24 building so he flagged it up [Applause] do you know whether mr allen was made aware of the type of insulation that was used

02:54:34 used um it's not part of conversation i remember and this would apply only to the bottom four floors at this time

02:54:40 this time because by this time we struck all the mask climbers and we were doing the bottom four floors of cherry pickers right so i didn't take mr allen up in the cherry picker so it had been what he would have seen

02:54:51 had been what he would have seen from the ground all right that makes sense

02:54:56 sense now um we talked about harley snagging their own work earlier and i just want to take you to an example of the snagging sheet from harley that they were using at this time can we go to ryd three zeroes five nine

02:55:10 can we go to ryd three zeroes five nine two

02:55:10 two three five

02:55:21 and i think this is an example of a snagging sheet we can see um it says grenfell tower external handover and then towards the bottom we can see it was conducted on

02:55:34 we can see it was conducted on the 25th of november 2015 and it says facade handover west do you see that above that and checked by ben bailey do you see that there yes

02:55:45 that there yes um and if we can go to page four of the document

02:55:50 document we've got a section for the cladding

02:55:56 and we can see the snagging comments for the cladding insulation and cavity barriers yes now i think we've established it

02:56:08 yes now i think we've established it before but when you did you receive these sheets these snag sheets

02:56:13 sheets yes this is exactly what i requested off ben this is proof to me that harleys are inspecting their work and on receipt of these sheets would you ever go and have a look at the snags he's identified

02:56:26 have a look at the snags he's identified to check that they've been remedied i was aware of the snags because i also told ben that this was not what i needed i needed a completed snack sheet and he needed to do everything on it

02:56:38 needed to do everything on it and then give me one which was completed so it would be ready for me to go and do my inspection and then also then after that following that take up building control and the clerk work

02:56:51 i thought you said earlier that you didn't necessarily do a formal inspection before building control came uh it wouldn't be necessary not necessarily formal inspection but i if harley's told me that their work was

02:57:03 if harley's told me that their work was complete i would go up and make sure it was complete yeah i think as i said they had a duty to finish their work correctly first did you ever find snags that they had overlooked or find

02:57:15 that they had overlooked or find issues that they had overlooked when you went back up no but the best uh no but as i said i also did one of their snags at the end the one on the south and that

02:57:27 at the end the one on the south and that would be an example of things i was looking at and

02:57:32 did you ever have any cause for concern about the thoroughness of the inspections of ben bailey for harley's

02:57:42 in terms of i had concern that he gave me a sheet saying it was ready and it wasn't because he still had two on their two nose and i'm pretty certain i made this clear to him in an email

02:57:53 i made this clear to him in an email once that he needs to be giving me completed snag sheets so it's ready for me to go up and have a look yeah and very much the same way that that's what building control almost foreign

02:58:06 almost foreign so i would hope and the way i wanted it to run that hardy would give me a completed snag sheet saying it's all done we've inspected it and we've carried out our duties and done everything

02:58:17 our duties and done everything accordingly i would go up there and by that time i wouldn't expect to see anything apart from a couple of little bits i do remember pointing out a little bit of sort of black trim or mastic which needed to be

02:58:28 needed to be taken off before i took building control up but

02:58:31 up but they were by that time very minor snags that literally were done with the installer at the time because i said i always went up with an installer in the mask climber

02:58:42 with an installer in the mask climber yeah and they nearly always had tools in there

02:58:45 there but i would come down and say we'd almost

02:58:49 almost snag it as we came down just cleaning a little bit here taking it all and just finishing off bits there yep can we look i think you refer to an email that you sent can we look at what

02:59:00 email that you sent can we look at what i think maybe that

02:59:04 har406955 this is an email you sent to mr bailey on the 24th of november 2015.

02:59:17 now do you want to just remind yourself is this the email you were referring to earlier where you raised a number of snagging issues with mr

02:59:30 snagging issues with mr ben bailey and i think we can i mean some of them appear to include if we look at the second paragraph snag sheets have been

02:59:41 second paragraph snag sheets have been sent to me with items not closed off i can't present these to the clerk of works to enable him to start his inspections snack sheets need to be completed and signed off before i receive them

02:59:52 signed off before i receive them and then snag sheets need to be amended with references to photos which aren't there omitted and then snag sheets need to be given to bez and taft on site or electronically they're the ones doing the work not me

03:00:04 they're the ones doing the work not me do you see that there so at this point is it fair to say that you were not happy with the snagging process that harley had adopted

03:00:14 yes it is fair to say i wasn't happy and were the problems you identified in this email ever rectified did it get better um yes i would say you got better

03:00:27 got better how quickly did it get better um well some of those snags are only a sort of half out well minor work i consider those they are snags they are minor bits of works which

03:00:39 snags they are minor bits of works which need to be finished off before you can consider that elevation or that part of cladding fully finished so i remember say i believe this was the first one we did

03:00:50 first one we did and it was about sorry it was partly me setting the standard that i expected from harley's yeah now if we just look back at paragraph

03:00:59 paragraph 86.2 of your statement this uh at page

03:01:04 20. and if we go on the third sentence you say i did one of the pre handover snags of the finished exterior

03:01:16 handover snags of the finished exterior on the north elevation as ben bailey could not make it to sight do you see that there uh yes yes i'm trying to think do you think that was the north i think he's actually now

03:01:28 was the north i think he's actually now breeding this again that might be the south elevation right i don't remember i don't know if you have a copy it was i took a a copy of the drawing so the elevation and marked on there i

03:01:41 so the elevation and marked on there i think it was about 15 to 20 points bits i wasn't happy i don't know if you have a copy of that what instantly no which would show on there i'd hope to show that that was the elevation

03:01:52 was the elevation it might say i know what elevation it was right but i remember it being the last elevation which was the south elevation so i do believe

03:02:01 believe i might have that wrong in my statement do you remember whether it was the elevation that had the entrance to the tower yes

03:02:08 tower yes it was that one yeah which would be the south yeah yeah now just moving on to look at the remaining parts of your inspection process so step three

03:02:19 process so step three below that you said is i went and viewed all of the finished elevations before offering those to john hoban of rbkc building control and john white the clerk of works

03:02:30 and john white the clerk of works um did you have any form of method statement for those inspections

03:02:38 no no method

03:02:42 and um just to be clear did you have any experience of inspecting cladding works before you undertook this task

03:02:52 only the cladding works that i've stated previously were in the jobs that i did but to me at that stage that's my site manager role is to inspect and finish finished areas

03:03:07 is to inspect and finish finished areas did you have any training in this aspect of your

03:03:10 of your role specific training no but 20 years of experience what i expected a finnish building to look like yeah and what exactly and that should be

03:03:21 what exactly and that should be important to the plans and specifications and and can you just tell us to exactly how you carried out these final finished elevations inspections like i think i explained to you earlier

03:03:33 like i think i explained to you earlier he's you could say that i almost was jumping on the back of the harley's inspections they were giving me finished product and that's what their inspection sheets were showing

03:03:44 showing so i regard the building but i would do it with an installer who had a little bucket of tools to finish things off so by that time and we also knew about the cladding panels any scratches so i

03:03:56 the cladding panels any scratches so i wouldn't expect to see any panels up there with scratches so i don't think there is i have a formal

03:04:02 formal inspection sheet saying i've done it but what i've done is gone up the building and come back down with an installer and said right not quite happy with that little bit and we just finish it off there and then and come back down so by the time i got

03:04:14 and come back down so by the time i got to the bottom i was happy that they built it all those elevations were ready for the clerk of works

03:04:19 works and building control to inspect yeah were you aware at the time that ryden had a quality control checklist uh yes can we just have a look at that it's ryd3042087

03:04:40 so this is a i think it's a two-page um checklist so we can see there the first page um and it's you've got to tick if certain

03:04:53 and it's you've got to tick if certain works have been completed to a satisfactory standard do you see that there and then can we just look at page two

03:05:04 page two um so you've got a checklist there which is by room and the work to be done and d snag check to be signed and dated and then who it's to be completed by do

03:05:15 and then who it's to be completed by do you see that there absolutely did you use this checklist for your inspections of the cladding works on this project no i didn't i've used these before i remember being on the first project

03:05:26 first project project that they were bought out in and the idea behind them was to make sure that subcontractor was doing their works important but they also would design that the subcontractor was to take responsibility for them

03:05:37 responsibility for them in some way so a harley snag sheet would take president over this right i see did anyone at ryden for example mr

03:05:48 i see did anyone at ryden for example mr blake ever check your work like check what you were doing in terms of your inspections he asked me where i was doing my job and going up there and snagging it and yeah doing the bits i'm supposed to

03:05:59 and yeah doing the bits i'm supposed to yes

03:06:01 yes did mr blake or anyone else at ryden ever inspect the works for themselves um no because i wouldn't expect that to be his role as such to actually go out on an inspection i would expect steve if

03:06:12 on an inspection i would expect steve if he

03:06:13 he saw something wrong with something i was doing or anyone anything anyone was doing was to tell me and i would go out there and fix it and he certainly did that in terms of sort of things he saw possibly you could say

03:06:24 things he saw possibly you could say were unsafe he made me go and make sure people are doing things right but in terms of a formal inspection no

03:06:33 did anyone ever raise concerns about the thoroughness of inspections that had been carried out um no

03:06:42 um no i i believe we've been quite thorough yeah

03:06:45 yeah making sure that sub-contractors are doing their work and they're giving me sheets telling me that i've done it all it's like i say they have responsibility to make sure their work is correct in the first place i go up there i check i do not have any

03:06:57 i go up there i check i do not have any sheets proving i checked but by the simple fact that when i took building control and um clerk works up there came back with very minor issues yeah if we go back to your

03:07:11 issues yeah if we go back to your step-by-step process um that you've got a paragraph 86.4 on page 20 of your statement

03:07:19 statement um so you this is after so you've said in 86.3 that you've viewed all of the finished elevations before offering them to building control and the clerk of works

03:07:29 works and then you say on the first proper handover inspection john hoban and john white came up together

03:07:37 together and john white did a snag list do you see that there yes can you recall when the first proper handover inspection was um we're currently somewhat unclear as

03:07:49 um we're currently somewhat unclear as to when when that might have been that was the second time i took john hoping up for mass climbers so in my witness statement the second time i took him up there was the formal i would say the formal

03:08:00 was the formal i would say the formal inspection i had told him we are ready it is all up there for you yes come and have a look and as i said i said earlier the clerk went up there with building control and the clerk was the one who wrote the list

03:08:12 the clerk was the one who wrote the list because

03:08:13 because so early january 2016 could that be yes and was the cladding complete complete by that stage yes

03:08:24 sorry when i say complete it was complete from the fourth floor up to the 23rd floor yeah so taking that fourth floor to the 23rd floor

03:08:34 floor would building control have had any opportunity at that inspection to look behind the cladding panels to see the insulation and cavity barriers or would that all have been covered up on that visit no they would not be able

03:08:45 on that visit no they would not be able to see it but that was the point of the first visit a couple of weeks prior to make sure that he could see it as i explained to you last thing i wanted on that handover inspection the second one we did was for

03:08:57 inspection the second one we did was for john to say i've not seen behind it please take some panels off so i can see that's why i took him up first time as you could say it was a pre-inspection is it to make sure that he was happy

03:09:09 is it to make sure that he was happy with the insulation and the cavity barriers what he could see at the time what did you think what did you understand the role of building control to be

03:09:17 to be during their inspections

03:09:21 that if i see anything wrong they would tell us

03:09:24 tell us do you agree that it's not the role of building control to quality control the works carried out by ryden and harley

03:09:35 i i don't know semantics a bit but i would always expect building control if i didn't see the quality was right to say something right whether you say they have responsibility i don't understand that but i would

03:09:47 i don't understand that but i would always expect them to if they saw something

03:09:49 something substandard in their opinion to tell us

03:09:54 do you agree that in a design and build contract the contractor can't rely solely on building control to raise issues that it might have missed

03:10:05 um yes i do agree and was that what you were doing in practice i mean how much reliance were you placing on building control to pick up things you might have missed me on what

03:10:17 things you might have missed me on what these inspections none yeah i was taking them up there thinking it was completely finished and hoping that he would say yes i agree with you it is finished

03:10:28 with you it is finished and i'm happy carry on please strike the mice climbers so did you understand he was on that is it finished check was he looking at any questions of compliance with the building regulations

03:10:40 compliance with the building regulations at all or was it what did you understand them to be looking for on that that visit i thought every visit they do they are looking at compliance with building regulations that's their role

03:10:54 regulations that's their role now just moving on to your step five so um

03:11:00 you've got um

03:11:05 you've said on the first proper 86.4 we just discussed that the first proper handover inspection hope john hobart and john white came up together and john white did a snag list and then you say 86.5 then harleys would

03:11:18 and then you say 86.5 then harleys would rectify the snags and john white would inspect again to check they were done john hoban did not want to view the completed snags as they were mainly scratches

03:11:27 scratches do you see that there yes so did you rely on john white to check the snags had been rectified yes because that's part of the handover

03:11:38 yes because that's part of the handover process anything on a client inspection sheet they need to check

03:11:42 check that has been done and why did ryden not check for itself we did well you did yes when was that prior to taking john white

03:11:53 when was that prior to taking john white up there

03:11:53 up there i see so before

03:11:58 86.4 before the first proper handover inspection you say you'd have checked yes but that's that's how snagging process works is

03:12:12 snagging process works is as i said for harley's do their own snags they present it to me i then check it i check i'm happy that i can present it to the people who need to approve

03:12:22 approve our work or riding to work which is building control and the clerk of works so then any snags which come out of those

03:12:31 those two lists i then give back to harley's because it's them doing the work yeah they rectify the snags i even checked the snags are done and then i re re-um

03:12:42 and then i re re-um or i give the finished product back to the or i say i asked john hogan or john sorry i'm getting confused with jonty john white to come back and inspect that the snags are done and as i said before i would never have

03:12:55 and as i said before i would never have struck those mask climbers unless i knew that i had that assurance that

03:13:00 that john white was happy that all the snags had been done yeah were you aware of what the um obligations were between the tmo and john rowan and partners the clerk of

03:13:11 and john rowan and partners the clerk of works were you aware of what they had been contracted to do by the tmo not at all

03:13:19 sorry i knew that they were clerking works and i'd expect that to be what a clerk work does i have a clerk work on every job and would you expect that to include checking for compliance with the building regulations

03:13:31 building regulations i would say it's more checking with compliance with depends plans and specifications as per my role

03:13:40 is

03:13:43 now i just want to look at your witness statement

03:13:48 statement uh at paragraph 97 so something to say further on uh this is ryd3094213 at page 22.

03:13:59 this is uh the meeting that you said you had

03:14:04 had there you say i had a meeting on the 12th of january 2016 with john white and tony batty they're the clerk of works which was also attended by andrew malcolm of artelia and matt smith of max fordham

03:14:16 artelia and matt smith of max fordham the purpose of this meeting was to go through the clerk of works reports to date and correlate all of the outstanding issues onto one definitive list do you see that there yes

03:14:27 and who was that list then provided to after that list had been compiled uh well andrew malcolm took or sort of chaired the meeting he was the

03:14:38 sort of chaired the meeting he was the one who provided the minutes afterwards with all the items and then i would have gone through with the relevant subcontractors to get all the outstanding items finished i know

03:14:49 finished i know quite a few of them certainly tony batty's items would have been jsw because it would have been emini snags or beats which were outstanding so were you responsible for resolving

03:15:00 so were you responsible for resolving the outstanding issues uh i was responsible for managing the process

03:15:06 process i.e telling the subcontractors this is still outstanding the clerks are not happy with it please sort it out or give me the information that they're asking for then i would have given it back to the

03:15:17 then i would have given it back to the clerks yeah this meeting the idea of this meeting was it was all part of the handover process the clerks were never going to sign off a building unless everything that had been done and

03:15:29 unless everything that had been done and all their reports including the ones prior to my involvement so this was a meeting to go through all of the

03:15:36 of the reports prior to my involvement get all the outstanding items on there items they were still not happy have been resolved

03:15:43 resolved satisfactorily and get them all onto one definitive list so then i can work my way through them and resolve them and rectify them yeah or get the responsible parties to do the work

03:15:55 do the work now i want to show you something that mr neil reed of artelia has said about that meeting

03:16:00 meeting if we can go to his witness statement this is a art 406663 at page 15.

03:16:11 so mr reed says on the 12th of january 2016

03:16:15 2016 andrew malcolm my assistant ea attended a clerk of the works reports review meeting at which jrp john rowan partners silcox dawson ryden and maxwell were present

03:16:26 and maxwell were present during this meeting the clerk of works reports were reviewed for outstanding points

03:16:30 points those points were then identified and responsibility was allocated to an individual present at the meeting to address them a number of outstanding issues on fire stopping and fire sealing were identified

03:16:42 identified and were the responsibility in each case of david dave hughes of ryden john white also raised a number of issues at the meeting relating to fire proofing

03:16:51 proofing apart from the instruction of a quotation for fireproof painting those issues were the responsibility of dave hughes once again as would be expected for a project of this nature outstanding issues were

03:17:02 this nature outstanding issues were identified and arrangements were made for them to be addressed before completion and then he says in any event as he explains further below both silcot dawson and john rowan and partners later formally signed off on

03:17:14 partners later formally signed off on ryden's work for the purposes of certifying practical completion do you see that there yes so if we can go back one page i want to ask you about some of these outstanding issues

03:17:26 outstanding issues it said there a number of outstanding issues were identified on fire stopping and fire sealing

03:17:33 do you recall what those issues were

03:17:38 one of the issues was to do with the fire sealing of the communal pipes through the floors in the um heating cupboards on each lobby yeah so from the fourth

03:17:51 on each lobby yeah so from the fourth floor up to 24th floor there was a new heating cupboard where all the new communal pipework came up and to do that they drilled holes through the floor let's say the clerks weren't happy what

03:18:03 let's say the clerks weren't happy what had been done or it wasn't 100 in accordance with the specification what had been specified so they were raising a concern with it so i say i don't agree with it with my

03:18:14 so i say i don't agree with it with my responsibility but i went through the process of managing and getting the subcontractors or whoever needed to do the works yeah to get them signed off and like he said the clerks we did what was required

03:18:27 the clerks we did what was required and to the satisfaction of the clerk works yeah that that was my next question did you agree that these were your responsibility in each case

03:18:35 each case um i would say he's saying that ryden's responsibilities as a main contractor and i was one sitting in the meeting so they're saying yes you're the one who needs to ping

03:18:46 yes you're the one who needs to ping whether i'm responsible i'm not the one doing the work i'm managing the work so i'm responsible for yeah yeah making sure

03:18:54 sure the job is done or get the top relevant subcontractors to do what was needed yeah there's also reference there to fire proofing a little bit below that two lines below that john white also raised a number of issues at the

03:19:06 also raised a number of issues at the meeting relating to fire proofing do you see that

03:19:09 see that yes do you know what that's referring to as distinct from why i think fire proofing is to do with the intermission paint to the steel work to me that's fire

03:19:20 to the steel work to me that's fire proofing is to the most painting steel in a sort of intermission fireproof or fire paint yeah

03:19:29 yeah fire sealing was to do with penetrations through holes or penetrations through floors sorry or walls

03:19:37 walls yeah the meeting minutes of that we can just have a look at their art

03:19:44 40668

03:19:50 if we look um so we can see at the top it says clerk of works cow reports review meeting minutes dated the 12th of january 2016. do you see that there

03:20:01 see that there yes and we can see you're in attendance together with the clerk of works and some others um and if we look at page five of the minutes at the bottom of the page

03:20:14 of the page line from the bottom it says that fireproofing all around the site new and existing needs to be done as per the fire strategy and then your initials are next to this

03:20:26 and then your initials are next to this yes now what fire strategy is being referred to there as far as i was concerned it was the fire strategy drawings right yeah and the fire proofing is as per your description just now is it

03:20:38 per your description just now is it yes to me that's what fire is is yeah more a coating of materials i see

03:20:51 mr chairman i'm about to start a related topic which is a little bit more on the clerk of works um i think if i start the next i think

03:21:02 um i think if i start the next i think you might be better i'm going to pick numbers exactly yes are you getting wrong

03:21:06 wrong right we're getting on fine yes mr hughes we'll have another break now so we can all get some lunch um please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with the refurbishment

03:21:17 refurbishment while you're out of the room and we'll resume at two o'clock please all right thank you thank you very much like to give the usher

03:21:32 two o'clock please

03:22:02 you