Afternoon session of Rydon site manager David Gibson's evidence covering project supervision, fire safety coordination, clerk of works reports, and handover procedures.
00:31:00 yes would you ask mr hughes to come back please thank you
00:31:17 good all right with tears yes ready to continue yep yes we're strange i just want to start by correcting something that i said earlier this morning about john hoban's site visits
00:31:29 morning about john hoban's site visits um so i put it to you that john hoban's visit in october 2015 was only the third of that year we've checked the point and while there are only two visits officially recorded
00:31:40 are only two visits officially recorded in the rbkc system their electronic system we think there may have been more based on other material
00:31:48 material now we've not yet had mr hoban's evidence
00:31:51 evidence and he will be asked about this in more detail but what i want to do is just ask you whether you had any concerns during your time on site about the frequency of site visits from building control
00:32:04 building control during my time no concerns at all about frequencies it would be what i expected yeah now another topic we discussed this morning was about um the taping of joins and joints on the
00:32:17 the taping of joins and joints on the insulation boards do you remember yes and you said to me that the joins on the insulation boards weren't taped i asked taf and bez this question and they said that they didn't need to
00:32:28 they said that they didn't need to and that's when i went back and referred to the celetex or had a look at the celetex brochure um and then you carried on um and you could you said you could see
00:32:40 um and you could you said you could see nothing in the celetex brochure that it needed to be taped now i just want to look at the celetex rainscreen cladding guide first of all this is at cel
00:32:54 6013.
00:32:58 do you recall whether it was this document that you looked at that wasn't the document i looked at no okay or the data sheet well this is the rain screen clouding specification guide for dated the 27th of august 2014
00:33:11 dated the 27th of august 2014 and if we go to page 14
00:33:17 and look um on the right hand column if we can blow up the top of that page yes so it's um above the heading selection of fasteners on that uh right hand column it says in all
00:33:29 uh right hand column it says in all cases the joints of the insulation board should be taped with a self-adhesive aluminium rainscreen foil tape with a minimum width of 75 millimeters do you see that there
00:33:40 do you see that there but you hadn't you hadn't looked at this guide so
00:33:43 guide so you didn't find anything in the literature you looked at no i didn't see that i never read that guide i'm pretty sure it was a product brochure sheet or the product data sheet i read
00:33:54 product data sheet i read right yeah can i also have a look at the harley method statement for cladding installation this is
00:34:05 four ryd3044 zero nine five
00:34:11 so this is we see harley method statement for grenfell tower and it says activity installing column cladding do you see that on that first page
00:34:21 page and i want to look at something on page three
00:34:26 point nine at the top there is a series of numbered points and it says this when all the brackets have been installed on the cladding rails operatives will install the vertical fire breaks in the same
00:34:37 vertical fire breaks in the same position as the internal party walls marked up drawing attached making sure that the joints are butted tightly together and the joints taped with adhesive-backed foil
00:34:49 adhesive-backed foil naught tape joints against the existing concrete should be sealed with suitable intermediate mastic do you see that there
00:34:56 there yes um had you read that harley method statement when you were considering the point about taping of joints i know i read a method statement
00:35:07 joints i know i read a method statement for harley's because they had a number of them this one specifically for the cladding i don't know if i read the earlier one but i certainly read a harley one and i didn't know that um
00:35:20 that um actually if we look at the next paragraph paragraph number 10 i think this is actually clearer about the installation it says offer
00:35:26 offer operatives will then fit the 100 millimeter thick insulation around the brackets and fire breaks taping joints with a class naught adhesive foil tape where necessary do you see that there yes so that's very
00:35:38 do you see that there yes so that's very clearly saying it's part of the harley method statement that osborne berry ought to be taping with a class naught foil tape around the joints well i would say that
00:35:49 around the joints well i would say that they didn't do number nine but they did do number ten because they taped the joints between the boards and the fire breaks or the cavity barriers right that was taped but you don't think they did
00:36:01 taped but you don't think they did number ten oh no they did they didn't do number nine but they did do number two
00:36:08 i thought you said to us earlier that you checked and the joins didn't in the insulation boards didn't need to be taped i'm talking about joins between boards the join between the board and the cavity barriers were to be taped
00:36:20 and the cavity barriers were to be taped that's what i was told and everywhere i saw that was done
00:36:25 so i'm only talking about where two insulation boards bust up against each other
00:36:29 other they were the joints i was talking about but i checked but i was told and everywhere i saw where a board butted up with a cavity break that was to be taped and that arrived
00:36:40 that arrived right i saw that so you didn't understand from anything in this method statement that the joins of the installation boards themselves should be taped to one another
00:36:49 another um i'd to say i didn't read this or i'm sure i read a method statement and there was a number of them because this is specifically for the cladding on the column panels i think i must have read one of the
00:37:00 i think i must have read one of the earlier ones but um well if it says there then they should have been doing it yeah can you explain why you wouldn't have read this method statement if you were supervising this aspect of the work
00:37:11 work i can't no i'm sorry okay um
00:37:18 okay um just a couple of other points from this morning you mentioned um the that the fr in fr5000 stood you thought for flat roof do you remember saying that
00:37:29 remember saying that um can you recall how did you learn to come
00:37:33 come come to that i don't remember but it's something i have a recollection of right so you don't know who told you that definitely i say i don't know i'm honest i don't know if that was from before the fire or after the fire
00:37:45 before the fire or after the fire but i'm saying i knew that the boards being fitted at grenfell were rs-5000 yep okay let's see
00:37:55 um now i think a couple of times this morning you said that when you started on the project you looked at any relevant
00:38:02 relevant nhbc guidance do you remember that no i didn't say i looked at it i said that would be the document i would go to yeah if i had any queries i see i wouldn't go to building regulations that's too high level for me
00:38:13 that's too high level for me yeah so i would deal with the nhbc guidance
00:38:16 guidance yeah do you have a recollection of ever looking at any nhbc guidance on this project um no i don't not specifically on this project but it would surprise me if i hadn't because certain
00:38:29 surprise me if i hadn't because certain things is
00:38:29 things is that's where i would look yeah let me just show you a piece of nhp guy in hbc guidance and see if that triggers any recollection so if we can go
00:38:38 go it's nhb401317
00:38:48 um so this is an nhbc it's a workbook on cladding systems from 2015. do you ever have have a recollection of looking at that no can we just look at page 24
00:39:01 can we just look at page 24 of this workbook and i want to look at the
00:39:05 the um second paragraph down on that page it says that in buildings of over 18 meters in height insulation and filler materials in walls is required to be of limited combustibility
00:39:17 required to be of limited combustibility for the entire envelope now pausing there i think you confirmed this morning that wasn't something you were aware of at the time of working on the project and then it says king span call firm k15 rigid
00:39:27 rigid insulation is currently the subject of debate
00:39:31 debate and further investigation after its suitability for use in certain construction types of buildings over 18 meters
00:39:37 meters has been called into question i wanted to ask you about that were you ever aware that the use of kingspan k15 in buildings over 18 meters had been called into question not aware
00:39:50 had been called into question not aware at all
00:39:50 at all or the subject of debate no no
00:39:55 and then before i pick up on where i was at this morning just we want to take you to a photograph of the tower which i believe was october 2015.
00:40:06 which i believe was october 2015. um if we can go ryd zeros five five one three zero
00:40:15 and this is um we believe either the east or the west facade we know it's either the east or west because that only has two columns down the middle do you remember
00:40:26 columns down the middle do you remember and the
00:40:27 and the north or south has three um so we can't be clear which of which of the two it is east or west but we've we've zoomed in and with the help of the operator i think we can zoom in
00:40:40 of the operator i think we can zoom in to some of the branding on the insulation i don't know whether you can see that it's not terribly clear but we think that that's some kingspan k15 that you can see in the middle of
00:40:51 k15 that you can see in the middle of this page do you see that yes it has a blue logo going diagonally across the page do you see that yes now but just to be clear
00:41:02 clear it's your evidence is it that you weren't aware of any k-15 being used on the building prior to you approving it in late december 15 early 2016. is that
00:41:13 in late december 15 early 2016. is that right i confirm that yes yeah okay sorry when were these photos taken um we believe october 2015. i believe i took that photo and said
00:41:25 i believe i took that photo and said when i first week i was there i took a photo of each elevation yeah and that would be basically what the state the building was in yeah when i went to site yeah okay thank you
00:41:38 okay thank you so just picking off uh where i left off i was about to turn to to look a little bit more at your relationship with john rowan and partners the clerk of works on the project
00:41:49 project and i want to go to some um minutes of a progress meeting in september 2015 so just before you join site
00:41:57 join site this is a art four zeros six six six six four sixes
00:42:08 so we can see there this is progress meeting 15 held on the 18th of september 2015.
00:42:14 2015. um and if we go to item 7.4 on page seven
00:42:23 if we can zoom in it says there quality control
00:42:26 control ryden is not responding to the cows that's clerk of works observations and comments re-quality etc issues are not being resolved and responses are not being provided
00:42:39 responses are not being provided ride into remedy as part of the design meeting process covered off earlier in the meeting do you see that there yes now when you were preparing to join the project did you read any of these progress
00:42:50 progress minutes uh no i well i had one day preparation yeah but you didn't read them say in a couple of weeks afterwards when you were first there
00:43:01 first there i do when i get on site i do read as much as i can do to try and get a bit of a history on it but i don't specifically read in old site meeting minutes yeah but where you made aware by anybody
00:43:12 yeah but where you made aware by anybody else of concerns expressed by the clerk of works that their observations were not being uh listened to by ryden yes the clerks made
00:43:22 made it worse to me and i believe in a meeting and that was part of that reason for that meeting in january that we discussed earlier going back through the old reports and getting all the outstanding issues into one list
00:43:34 issues into one list and resolving them right
00:43:38 and can you tell us any more about the nature of their concerns about quality were you given any details um i would say
00:43:48 say is because the honest the same things were appearing on the same on reports on a number of times yeah say that they're not being resolved i'd like to think that something appears on the report once
00:43:59 report once but i'll try and sort it out and make sure it doesn't happen again yeah and can you recall any what kinds of things they were raising about the cladding
00:44:07 cladding cladding no but it would be if they were outstanding it would have been what was discussed in that meeting on in january yeah
00:44:15 yeah i understand can we turn on to some more minutes of a progress meeting held on the 17th of november 2015. this is art
00:44:24 is art 405184
00:44:31 and this time we can see that you are present
00:44:35 present david hughes five lines down there and then if we can go to page three of the minutes and look at item 2.13
00:44:46 so it says there this matter is ongoing and that ryden is not formally responding to the queries direction and observations provided by john and tony sb confirmed that ryden had no comments on
00:44:58 confirmed that ryden had no comments on the issues being raised in the clerk of works reports but the issue remains that the clerk of works are expecting a response to allow matters to be concluded satisfactorily ryden did not provide a commitment to
00:45:10 ryden did not provide a commitment to respond and suggested that issues that need addressing could be raised in an email to sb steve blake
00:45:18 blake nr that's neil reed stated that this was not satisfactory and responses to the clerk of works reports are key to ensure outcome certainty is managed we all things compliance and quality
00:45:30 we all things compliance and quality tb tony batty noted that items will be reviewed at ultimate inspection and handover and if not resolved the certificate of practical completion will not be issued nr neil reed supported the statement do
00:45:41 nr neil reed supported the statement do you see that there yes um so
00:45:46 yes um so looking at that can you explain why it was that ryden was failing to respond to the issues raised in the clerk of works reports um i want to comment what happened
00:45:57 um i want to comment what happened before but i do know afterwards is that i started to respond to their reports and yes hey and we tried to close out the snags or any defects or any issues they had as quick
00:46:08 defects or any issues they had as quick as possible we can see three lines up from the bottom that the the concern seems to be about
00:46:15 about outcome certainty is managed we all things compliance and quality were you aware that they were concerned about the compliance of the works
00:46:24 the works um well that's their job is to ensure that it looks like to me it complies with the plans and specification that's what they i'd say they're assessing their works on so
00:46:35 so yes and i say and also note the last statement where it says if it wasn't resolved we wouldn't have got pc so my job and what i did over the next nine months was to ensure that clerk works all the issues they had were resolved
00:46:47 issues they had were resolved yeah now can we look at an inspection report that john white produces in december 2015 this is
00:46:57 ryd3063728
00:47:06 so
00:47:09 with regard to on page one uh resources um so this is dated the 10th of december 2015 and i just then want to look at there's a whole section headed resources
00:47:21 there's a whole section headed resources and then i want to look in the comments box there so it says this one of i think should be one of the site managers jason who is the longest site
00:47:32 managers jason who is the longest site manager is away for approximately four weeks
00:47:35 weeks also jack the trainee foreman is not in and chris is also not in ryden's need to get additional supervision otherwise site safety could be compromised also the contract manager steve blake
00:47:46 also the contract manager steve blake has not been on site all week do you see that there yes now do you recall receiving this um inspection report uh yes i would have received it i was there on site it'd
00:47:57 received it i was there on site it'd been sent to me and did it concern you that so many site supervisors and site managers were absent at this time um not overly no i felt we had the site under control
00:48:10 had the site under control so you didn't think that these concerns about presence on site were justified um there was obviously when i first started there was chris jason and gary
00:48:23 started there was chris jason and gary and jack super iso and myself so you could say there was four site managers and one assistant we went down to two site managers one assistant in time for christmas
00:48:32 christmas so no i wouldn't say that that was concerning if i'd been on site on my own and yes i probably would have been concerned it would have been too much for me but okay i say we knew that jason was going away
00:48:43 i say we knew that jason was going away i don't specifically know why chris wasn't there that day it might have been just a day off i don't remember but i know jason went away for four weeks over christmas because he had a lot of leave to use up
00:48:54 because he had a lot of leave to use up so
00:48:54 so we were aware and we could manage jason i don't remember why chris wasn't there so that's jason north yes chris holt yeah how did you plan at this
00:49:05 chris holt yeah how did you plan at this point to ensure that adequate supervision was carried out um how do you mean sorry i don't understand that question well did you think that there needed to be any changes in the light of this
00:49:17 any changes in the light of this concern being flagged by the word i knew jason was planned leave so no the and i say i can't remember i picked up his work he was mainly looking after the bottom four floors at the time
00:49:28 after the bottom four floors at the time chris was looking after the internals so i say it doesn't say anything about so i would say that it would be me and gary who was still on site
00:49:39 gary who was still on site gary was looking after the communals gary could pick up chris's work and i'd pick up jason's work okay so i don't think that's the same as if another site match so we don't always when a site manager
00:49:50 so we don't always when a site manager has a holiday ensure that somebody else comes in
00:49:53 comes in so no i don't i'm not concerned by that at all okay but i would say it was the clerk of works it was within his remit to report if he thought it was uh
00:50:02 it was uh under resource but i don't agree that it was no okay now on page two of this report we can see
00:50:10 see that he's given us a score for health and safety if we look at the top of the page
00:50:15 page it's headed performance indicators and there's a seven for workmanship a seven for quality but then only a five for health and safety do you see that there
00:50:25 there and we can see from the key below that between four and five demonstrates inconsistent inconsistency in achieving or meeting their required quality standards inconsistencies in performance evident
00:50:37 inconsistencies in performance evident responsive rather than proactive approach to quality issues evident do you see that there yes now in the light of that did you take any steps after this to improve your process of inspection and supervision
00:50:48 process of inspection and supervision um not specifically but i would hope that john if he had any concerns that he would raise them with me on site before he left that was something i always try to ensure with the clerk of works that they didn't
00:51:00 the clerk of works that they didn't leave sight without telling me what their concerns were part of the process of obviously managing their expectations and managing their view that they weren't being listened to was ensure that he told me what the issues were and that i listened
00:51:12 what the issues were and that i listened to him and dealt with it so i don't specifically remember that five score i don't know whether i consider it fair or not but i say i would expect him to tell me specifically
00:51:23 tell me specifically what it was and if it was purely related to the fact that he didn't think we had enough supervision then i disagree with it okay so but you don't recall a separate conversation with him about this
00:51:34 conversation with him about this i had lots of conversations with them that's one of the main parts of my job is to talk to people yeah so i'm sorry i don't remember specific conversations like that and you don't recall a conversation where they were talking
00:51:45 conversation where they were talking about
00:51:46 about potentially health and safety not being um not being consistently dealt with well it also talks about four things about quality sugar and health and
00:51:57 about quality sugar and health and safety no
00:51:58 safety no i don't remember he might be that he'd seen something and as i said i would expect
00:52:03 expect to see it i didn't always walk around with the clerks yeah but by this time i would say that i probably had resumed the number one role on site so i would hope that they would come and tell me what their concerns were
00:52:14 concerns were is because sometimes you don't get the report for another three four days or possibly next week so if it is a serious
00:52:21 serious issue they should tell me there and then but i don't remember what that one was and i don't know it says anywhere else in there whether there was a specific health initiative safety issue that he was
00:52:32 initiative safety issue that he was given a survival yeah in your experience did ryden ever appoint its own clerk of works to carry out inspections on projects uh never been my experience for that no that's what our site manager
00:52:43 that's what our site manager role is i see so that's that's why our role is to manage it yeah
00:52:52 now just pick up a few more questions about information provided to building control
00:52:57 control um can we just look at paragraph 72 of your witness statement this is on page 17.
00:53:06 and you just say there i also relied upon the advice received from an approval given by the rbkc building control surveyors john hoban and paul hansen
00:53:17 now i want to ask about the information that was
00:53:20 that was shared with them when you started on site did you ever inquire as to what information building control had been provided with about the external cladding system about the external cladding system no
00:53:34 about the external cladding system no did they ever indicate to you at any time
00:53:37 time during your dealings with them that they didn't have the information that they required in terms of the external cladding uh no
00:53:48 now um in paragraph 58.4 of your statement this is on page 12. you refer
00:53:59 so this is in the context of the um alterations to the community room layout to accommodate the aov and in the last few lines you say i definitely sent a drawing to the architect for his
00:54:11 drawing to the architect for his approval and showed this alteration to john hoban rbkc building control survey during one of his visits do you see that yes i know now when building control were on site did you regularly show them drawings during
00:54:23 regularly show them drawings during their site visits no did you ever give building control drawings to take away with them not to my recollection no
00:54:36 so it wouldn't it would follow from that would it that there was no record of what
00:54:41 what information or drawings had been provided to building control by you and ryden uh any i say any drawing that i provided would probably be done by email so the record would be on email
00:54:52 by email so the record would be on email but i would say that the record is what they were given to when they were the application was put in
00:55:01 at any stage during any of their site visits were any concerns raised with you about
00:55:06 about compliance with the building regulations
00:55:10 um well i would say that any say any snag or any issue he raised specifically i say towards the end was always about compliance with building regulations it was insurance
00:55:21 was insurance i say that's what my understanding is is that's their role is to come and basically say yes you've built in compliance with it or compliance with the drawings that they were given yeah i want to look in a little bit more
00:55:32 yeah i want to look in a little bit more detail at um the the visit that building control did on the 7th of january 2016 and we've because we've got some minutes of this
00:55:40 of this um now you refer to this meeting at paragraph 61.4 of your statement on page 13. let me just have a look at that
00:55:54 and you say there steve blake and i had a meeting on site with the two senior building control surveyors john hogan and paul hansen on the 7th of january 2016
00:56:02 2016 also in attendance was neil crawford the architect from studio e the purpose of the meeting was to discuss what would be required to achieve building control completion prior to hand over to the client and
00:56:14 prior to hand over to the client and then you say we initially met in the site office for the first part of the meeting and then we walked relevant parts of the building i took minutes of this meeting and you exhibit them
00:56:24 them and distributed them to all attendees and requested a response from john hoban and paul hanson if they had any comments do you see that there and then you go on and say you distributed those minutes to the client
00:56:35 distributed those minutes to the client team
00:56:39 and you mention in the last few lines of that paragraph of your statement there's a typographical mistake in the minutes about the existing riser cupboards and you've
00:56:48 you've explained what that mistake is now can we just look at these minutes this is at
00:56:56 rbk403856
00:57:05 so the this is these are minutes of the meeting that was held there with john hope and paul hanson neil crawford now you can take it from me we've looked through these minutes
00:57:16 through these minutes and they contain no information about the external facade is that because you didn't discuss the external facade with rbkc building control at this meeting
00:57:28 control at this meeting i don't remember uh discussing it in detail
00:57:32 detail but i say it was a lot to do with concerns and making sure everything else so if i had no concerns on it then it probably wouldn't be noted in the minutes yeah i i honestly don't remember if we did
00:57:43 i i honestly don't remember if we did discuss it in that meeting yeah well we can't see anything from these minutes um now as we just saw you said in your witness statement that you distributed the minutes and requested comments
00:57:54 the minutes and requested comments um but what you don't do is mention whether or not you received a response to to those comments and i just want to look at the comments you did get okay um so if we can turn to ryd
00:58:06 okay um so if we can turn to ryd 30637911
00:58:14 this is an email um to you if we look at the top of the page to you from
00:58:27 sorry this is from you to john hoban and you say
00:58:31 you say on the 12th of january 2016. hi john following your visit to site and our discussion your only comment on the minutes was that there was no mention of fire stopping to penetrations through
00:58:42 stopping to penetrations through walls and floors please could you confirm this is correct do you see that there so is it right that there was a discussion about fire stopping to penetrations
00:58:54 about fire stopping to penetrations through walls and floors but that hadn't been put in the minutes uh yes well it must have been because that's what you wrote i believe obviously that was around the time that john came back to site
00:59:05 to site so i'd have verbally asked him if he had him any issues with those meeting minutes i'd distributed the week before and you must have said that yes there was no mention so yeah that's why i was confirming that
00:59:16 i was confirming that apart from that he was happy with the minutes yeah because just looking at your statement at paragraph 61.5 on page 14.
00:59:30 you say there i arranged for john hoeven to visit site on the 12th of january 2016
00:59:34 2016 to go at the mass climbers again and then you said i followed up the meeting with an email confirming a conversation about fire stopping to penetrations through walls and floors and we just wanted to be absolutely
00:59:46 and we just wanted to be absolutely clear when that conversation was had do you mean
00:59:49 you mean that the conversation was had during the meeting on the 7th of january or that it was had on the 12th of january uh the conversation about firestopping well sorry firestopping penetrations were obviously
01:00:00 firestopping penetrations were obviously talked about on the meeting on the week before yeah on the 7th and i hadn't made a note on the minutes because i say it was a walk-around meeting so i was walking around trying to make notes in my book as we went
01:00:12 to make notes in my book as we went round
01:00:13 round there was a number of sort of people talking i tried my best to get an accurate sort of recollection of those minutes down and as i wrote that i think i'm pretty certain i wrote the minutes the
01:00:24 pretty certain i wrote the minutes the next day to make sure that it was fresh in my memory yeah but i must have missed that bit and that was his recollection so yeah his comment back was you've made no note of it so yeah i was confirming back so the actual conversation about fire
01:00:35 so the actual conversation about fire stopping and penetrations would have been had
01:00:38 been had on the walk around it should have been noted in the minutes and it wasn't but i was asking him confirm verbally on his visit the next week and that's what he said so i confirmed it back to him yeah thank you
01:00:49 it back to him yeah thank you can we look at um something mr hansen said as well in his reply to the minutes this is rbk40
01:01:05 so this is his response top of the page if we can zoom in on that and he says to you dear dave i've reviewed the minutes and confirmed they are accurate regarding my reference means of escape and then he says in
01:01:16 means of escape and then he says in addition john hoban did also mention about fire stopping particularly above door frames do you see that there now can you recall now for us what was
01:01:28 now can you recall now for us what was the discussion that was had about fire stopping um it was if i remember correctly it was about fast stopping to the front doors above the new flats that we were building
01:01:40 building right so we built nine new flats yeah and there i say well at that time there was only eight of them because we didn't build number six until later but it was really regarding that yeah
01:01:51 but it was really regarding that yeah um
01:01:55 yes just to give you we did a for a walk around of that building with them at the time to make sure that we'd gone over everything that we might need or was outstanding
01:02:06 was outstanding yeah and that was supposed to be an accurate record of that meeting i obviously missed the part that thing but i say it was me trying to take notes as a walk around involved in the meeting as well yeah now um
01:02:19 yeah now um can you recall whether there was any issues raised about fire stopping to the windows
01:02:24 windows uh no i can't recall and i say if there was i'd have hoped i'd written it down obviously missed a bit about dependency fire stopping penetration but i would hope that if we had a thing that they would also have noted in
01:02:36 they would also have noted in my conversation with john or from paul that we had so i can only say that no there wasn't no i mean we can see here mr hansen saying particularly above door frames which is what you've confirmed but the reason i'm putting that to you
01:02:47 but the reason i'm putting that to you is because this has been suggested by mr hoban i want to look at his witness statement this is at rbk3050416 and i want to start by looking right at
01:02:59 and i want to start by looking right at the bottom of page nine
01:03:05 so mr hobin is asked the question did you ever raise concerns about the compliance of the windows at any stage during the project do you see that and then if you go over
01:03:17 do you see that and then if you go over um we get the response possibly during site visits i would make physical noted
01:03:25 noted in my a3 notebook and raise any concerns with the site manager or person escorting me i've been informed abby casey cannot locate my notebook and then he says this additionally email
01:03:36 and then he says this additionally email from david hughes on the 12th of january 2016 at 1620 states that raised the issue of fire stopping during a site visit this could relate to the windows but without sight of my notes i cannot be
01:03:48 without sight of my notes i cannot be sure
01:03:49 sure so you can see mr hoban has suggested it might have been the windows but he can't be sure
01:03:55 be sure and we just wanted to get your recollection of whether that issue about fire stopping had anything to do with windows
01:04:01 windows my recollection of fire stoppings as i said it was to do the front doors to the new flats
01:04:05 new flats yeah i'd say i don't believe there's anything to do with the windows yeah did you ever amend your minutes in the light of the comments that you got about fire stopping and penetrations um no
01:04:17 fire stopping and penetrations um no because i had the only note i got was from building control but that was the only error on them so that was the email was a that there was an area so no i did not
01:04:28 an area so no i did not why would you not amend the minutes once you got those comments um i'd like to think i'm sorry i'd like so i did but i didn't i didn't have time i don't
01:04:38 no what we can see is that just over four months later you shared these meeting minutes with claire williams and janice ray of the tmo
01:04:49 tmo if we can look at that this is [Music]
01:04:53 [Music] five one tmo100451 nine
01:04:58 it's an email dated the 25th of may 2016.
01:05:05 and if we zoom in on that top email you say there in the first line following our
01:05:10 our fra meeting yesterday please see confirmation email below from paul hanson regarding acceptance of minutes from design team meeting held back in january do you see that there yes and we've checked and the minutes
01:05:23 yes and we've checked and the minutes that you attached to this email were unamended so they hadn't got anything in about fire stopping being raised by building control
01:05:34 control um
01:05:37 um on what basis did you take paul hansen's response that you've set out below as acceptance of the minutes wasn't he actually raising a point that had been missed in the minutes
01:05:48 missed in the minutes yes regarding that point i'd miss thing but i would say that it was i was specifically replying about an issue about fire alarms at this point or heat detectors on the first floor
01:05:59 floor i see so that's why you're saying he actually said penetrations and fire stopping has no relevance to what i was sending it to in this point i see
01:06:10 sending it to in this point i see just the last point on this if we can look at some artelia meeting minutes from progress meeting 19 this is on um art405321 at page five
01:06:28 sorry we ought to go back to the front of this document just to orientate ourselves
01:06:32 ourselves so these are meeting minutes progress meeting 19 26 of january 2016 and we can see that you're present
01:06:42 and then on page five at the bottom of the page it's 0.3.10.1
01:06:51 0.3.10.1 it says dh so that's you yes david hughes
01:06:54 hughes yes confirmed that the approved building control inspector had confirmed in writings details found within building control meeting minutes issued on the 8th of
01:07:03 8th of january 2016. do you see that there
01:07:08 but again it wasn't entirely correct that he'd confirmed the meeting minutes because they had actually raised an issue that hadn't been covered in them hadn't they uh i agree what you're saying yes they weren't 100 correct but i also
01:07:19 weren't 100 correct but i also had a record of what the issue was so it was that one thing about fire stopping and no mention of it yeah and then if we look at i would say from that that the rest of minutes are
01:07:30 from that that the rest of minutes are correct but yes i do agree with your statement they aren't 100 accurate yeah then if we look at point
01:07:37 point 3 10 2 um it says this sb steve blake noted that the inspector had identified areas of existing fire compartmentation
01:07:48 areas of existing fire compartmentation which needed addressing it was discussed and agreed that although these works are not required under the current contact contract it may be beneficial to the tma to carry out these works to improve the condition of the building
01:07:59 condition of the building and then steve lake to draw a proposal identifying scope cost and program implications of undertaking this additional work to be issued to claire williams and
01:08:10 to be issued to claire williams and artelia
01:08:11 artelia and then claire williams will then review the necessity of these works can you help us as to what that was referring to existing fire compensation
01:08:22 compensation issues uh it was referring to the existing riser cupboards either side of the lift the ones where i talked about in the meeting it's not or get made my mistake about the chipboard
01:08:33 chipboard if you took those chipboard off there there that's where the old riser pipes used to rise for sort of the original heating system and water distribution system and electric system as well is over the
01:08:45 and electric system as well is over the years
01:08:45 years people had come and added i think telecom and telephone bits down here so not all of them were fire stopped between floors there was some fire stopping missing so
01:08:56 there was some fire stopping missing so as part of our process at the end is we went around and fire stopped those holes the only hole that we didn't fire stock was an impossible to do so was on the left-hand side of the lifts as
01:09:07 on the left-hand side of the lifts as you look to the left the covered on the left-hand side one of the first parts of that was the main electrical buzz bar for the building which rose through all 24 stories of the building
01:09:15 building i'd say without the only way i stopped that would have been to turn the whole building off right yeah but other than that it was mainly from what i remember it was mainly the right hand side you could take the chipboard off and you
01:09:26 you could take the chipboard off and you could see holes which hadn't been fireproofed yeah thank you that's really helpful um so i now want to ask you some questions about x over and fire engineering uh in terms of
01:09:38 over and fire engineering uh in terms of the project now is it right that you were the fire coordinator on the project when you were uh yes yeah and we can see that from ryden's project fire plan for grenfell
01:09:50 ryden's project fire plan for grenfell tower
01:09:51 tower dated may 2016. if we look at that this is cst
01:09:54 is cst 6033 on the first page
01:10:06 so this is the construction project fire plan and you're down there as the fire coordinator yes did you receive any training for the purposes of carrying out that
01:10:15 out that role i have been on a fire safety training course yes but specifically it's about managing fire risks during the construction phase yeah so you're not looking at fire
01:10:26 yeah so you're not looking at fire safety beyond that no i'm as i said before i have never read the building regulations and it was never part of the training course i went on it's about making sure essentially that there is enough fire extinguishers on site they're the right
01:10:37 extinguishers on site they're the right ones the work you're doing that people know where they are there is a plan
01:10:42 a plan in place and everyone induction stage is aware of
01:10:45 aware of the fire site fire procedures [Applause] now you say at paragraph 107 of your witness statement if we can look at that on page 24
01:10:59 that um you say there that as part of your duties you took on responsibility for reviewing the project fire risk assessment do you see that there yes
01:11:09 there yes and you say the first review i carried out was in february 2016 and then on a monthly basis after that yes and um you described the project virus risk
01:11:20 you described the project virus risk assessment immediately above that at paragraph 106 and you say it's part of ryden group's environment and quality procedures do
01:11:31 environment and quality procedures do you see that there yes and you say in the third sentence that its main focus is how to carry out the contracted works within the site residential properties communal and public spaces
01:11:43 public spaces and comply with the current regulations do you see that there
01:11:49 and we we know just to pull up this project fire risk assessment it can be found at ryd3077583
01:12:05 there it is it's dated february 2016 and it names you on page two as the responsible person for the project you can just look at that yeah so we see
01:12:16 you can just look at that yeah so we see that there
01:12:20 now paragraph 69 of your witness statement if we could go page look at page 16 of your statement
01:12:32 you say this you say i read the x over outline fire safety strategy report dated 7th november 2013 when it was sent to me by matt smith from max fordham it was sent to me to
01:12:43 from max fordham it was sent to me to help answer a query about the difference in the numbers of smoke heat alarms between the flats on the first floor and on the third floor and then you say you liaise with matt smith regarding the specification of the
01:12:55 smith regarding the specification of the m e systems um when you started work on the project were you told what xover's role was no
01:13:08 what did you know about x over's involvement in the project at that time i didn't think they are my understanding the whole time i was at the project that exo the x-over document this file strategy was a tender
01:13:20 document this file strategy was a tender document and it said my understanding was it had been superseded by the fire strategy drawings from the architect so when i've done jobs right from the
01:13:31 so when i've done jobs right from the start we have lots of documents at the start projects which are to me are tender documents and from most documents that's what you build up and to build your design from so i would
01:13:42 to build your design from so i would i my understanding was that the fire strategy drawings overruled that and it was just a tender document yeah did you know that xover hadn't been instructed directly by ryden
01:13:53 instructed directly by ryden um i knew that they were essentially been instructed by studio e but i was only from reading that report before that i don't think price that report x over had come up in any
01:14:05 report x over had come up in any conversations i don't believe so was that your understanding that they'd entered into a contract with studio e
01:14:11 studio e uh one one saying as i said it was a tender document that the architects needed to formulate their fire strategy drawings
01:14:18 drawings and did you ever think about who their client was xover's client no not really i say i thought it was the architects now let's just turn up that outline fire safety strategy dated 17th of november
01:14:31 safety strategy dated 17th of november 2013 which you say there that you you read um [Music]
01:14:37 [Music] it's at exo four zeros one one zero seven
01:14:45 we can see there it's issue number three seventh of november 2013. so you must have been sent this no earlier than october 15 when you came onto the project
01:14:56 onto the project um were you concerned when you were sent it that this fire strategy had not been updated
01:15:03 updated between november 13 and the time when you were involved in the project not at all as i said i thought it was a tender document and that 2013 was just before the tender period
01:15:15 2013 was just before the tender period i see so you weren't concerned that this tender document was now quite out of date potentially as i said i thought it was superseded and saying i worked at plans and specification that the fire strategy plans were what i was working to
01:15:28 plans were what i was working to and they were the most relevant documents did you read the whole report i believe i did yes
01:15:36 can we look at page nine this is section 3.1.4
01:15:42 this is um compliance with b4 external file spread and we can see it says there it is considered that the proposed changes
01:15:50 changes will have no adverse effect on the building in relation to external fire spread
01:15:54 spread but this will be confirmed by an analysis in a future issue of this report
01:15:59 report and do you remember reading that at the time
01:16:02 time yes i do remember reading and did you notice
01:16:06 notice that there was a promised analysis in a future issue of the report um i do remember reading it as i said i didn't think it was an issue because it was done prior to drawings that it
01:16:18 it was done prior to drawings that it was at tender stage so the harley's drawings would supersede that
01:16:24 that i i don't remember whether it gave me any comfort or not i just remember reading it but not really paying much attention to it because i wasn't looking at the document in that respect
01:16:35 looking at the document in that respect i was looking for other information did you ever ask anybody whether that analysis had ever been carried out no
01:16:44 no were you at all concerned that this strategy hadn't fully addressed the external cladding um no can you explain why because the architects and harleys had
01:16:56 because the architects and harleys had done the design so i'd expect them to know and make sure the
01:17:01 the design was compliant with building regulations so did you think to yourself when you read this um
01:17:09 this um about what the proposed changes were that would have no adverse effect no no and did you notice can we go to page four of the document
01:17:22 that the description that's provided there so this is a description that's given right in the introduction of the refurbishment of what it comprises did you notice when you read it that it
01:17:33 did you notice when you read it that it didn't include the over cladding works no
01:17:40 did you ever contact anyone on x over to discuss
01:17:44 discuss um the cladding works no
01:17:50 can we just look at a couple of emails on on this topic um so these are some emails from november 2015. can we look at tmo1004122
01:18:09 so these are emails between matt smith and andy bridges but they copy you in do you see that yes and i just want to start with the email
01:18:20 and i just want to start with the email at the bottom of the first page sent by matt smith and um he says to andy bridges copying you in
01:18:28 you in afternoon andy i'm not confident the fire strategy document that i have is the most up-to-date you'd be best advised getting a copy from ryden do you see that there yes and then
01:18:40 do you see that there yes and then if we look at the top of the page to the response
01:18:44 response um the response is good to meet you today
01:18:48 today i'll get the lighting tech subs over in the next day or so with regard to the fire strategy document dave has already sent it over fyi the reference is issue number three
01:19:00 fyi the reference is issue number three dated 7th of november 2013. do you see that
01:19:03 that yes did you check when you receive these emails whether the document you had was the most up to date
01:19:12 date no but it was the only one we had
01:19:18 so it didn't concern you that two years after the third issue of this um outline fire safety strategy there had been
01:19:25 had been no update um now as i said my understanding was and i understand i had all the way through project that it was a tender document it was there to sort of help architects
01:19:36 it was there to sort of help architects with designing their fire strategy drawings
01:19:39 drawings um yeah nobody ever said to me that it needs to be updated can we look at um another set of emails this is
01:19:49 this is in april 2016. if we go tmo10013128
01:19:56 and at the foot of page 2 i want to start with that is an email from claire williams to you dated the 27th of april 2016 at 12 43 do
01:20:07 dated the 27th of april 2016 at 12 43 do you see that there yes and she starts off dave we're putting together protocols for what happens in the case of the detection system being activated
01:20:18 system being activated so i need a couple of answers to the below
01:20:21 below do you see that there and then item one she says this can i please have a copy of the latest fire strategy document
01:20:31 document i have an original version but want to make sure it has not changed drawings would be useful and then i think what you've done is it right it's in blue you've answered her comments yes i have yeah we we
01:20:42 yeah we we know that because you say that in some emails further up and you've said x over fire strategy attached
01:20:48 attached not updated from tender as far as i'm aware and fire strategy drawings attached
01:20:53 attached to be updated to as built do you see that there
01:21:01 now you say there um x over fire strategy attached not updated from tender as far as i'm aware
01:21:09 aware so you don't seem certain at the time of responding to this email whether it had been updated or not did you ever check with anyone else at ryden to establish whether it had been updated uh no but i don't know who i well the
01:21:22 uh no but i don't know who i well the only person would check with steve but no i never did did it occur to you to take any steps to discuss say with steve blake the commission of an updated fire safety strategy from
01:21:33 strategy from x over or another fire consultant i go back to understand my understanding was that it was a tender document and the fire strategy drawings superseded that the strategy
01:21:45 that the strategy so nobody asked me ever to get it updated otherwise if i had i would have
01:21:54 and i mean you can see from this that it doesn't look like the tmo themselves have requested an update does it no nobody did did you ever discuss
01:22:04 discuss um the points you're responding to here in blue with mr ashton um i think you have a record of my only correspondence mr ashton which was to do with smoke alarm in the um
01:22:17 with smoke alarm in the um hub room yeah i believe that is the only correspondence i had with him i think you say in your statement that you had um dealings with him by phone and email so did you ever discuss
01:22:28 phone and email so did you ever discuss on the telephone with him that the fire strategy document no wasn't it
01:22:33 wasn't it but it goes back to the he wrote the and as far as i'm certain he was answering questions regarding the tender document it was his report he was answering questions regarding that
01:22:44 questions regarding that if we can look at miss williams response to your email if we look at that
01:22:50 ryd3075983
01:22:54 she says this um dave this still has the old tmo office i think the fire strategy stuff may have been superseded on this basis do you see that there
01:23:05 basis do you see that there um so i think it follows from your answers but at this point when she says it's been superseded you didn't consider discussing with anyone the request of an updated document from x
01:23:18 request of an updated document from x over
01:23:20 over can we look at some clerk of works review meeting minutes this is
01:23:27 art406688
01:23:33 now this is back uh we looked at this document before i think 12th of january 2016
01:23:37 2016 and there's um on page five
01:23:44 three lines from the bottom it says this we look before at what it said about fire briefing but i want to ask you now about this comment it says fire strategy needs to be updated as per on-site discussions
01:23:57 to be updated as per on-site discussions and then
01:23:58 and then your initials are there on the right hand side
01:24:02 hand side in the column do you see that there yes i do now
01:24:05 i do now what fire strategy is being referred to there do you know um i'm sorry my understanding was it was the fire strategy drawings and i'm pretty certain after this meeting the architect
01:24:14 architect updated the drawings and i sent them over i see so though this wasn't a reference to issue three of xover's fire safety strategy for the building
01:24:22 building if it was it's not how i took it so i took it to be the fire strategy drawings and i'm pretty certain that they're updated and sort of yeah a week or so later because
01:24:33 sort of yeah a week or so later because this was very soon in around the time that we had the meeting with uh the building patrol and the architect on site and i say you got this fire strategy got discussed at that meeting as well so and the
01:24:44 at that meeting as well so and the architect updated these drawings things so my understanding and i'm pretty certain that's how he got closed out this
01:24:51 out this was that the fire strategy drawings were updated yeah can we just look at paragraph 70 of your statement at page 16.
01:25:02 you say there and during the period of my involvement there were a couple of times that terry ashton of ixova was consulted regarding specific advice on fire safety generally it was to do with queries raised in relation to the original fire
01:25:14 raised in relation to the original fire safety strategy report i personally corresponded with him about internal fire safety matters by email and phone
01:25:21 and phone my understanding was that he would answer any queries relating to the original fire safety strategy report do you see that there yes on what basis did you understand mr ashton would be
01:25:32 did you understand mr ashton would be answering any queries relating to the original fire safety strategy report well i kind of got it from i think it was matt smith who said if you have any because i think i phoned matt about the things and he said you've got any
01:25:43 things and he said you've got any queries that report report or ask terry ashton and i don't remember whether the architect told me that as well right but i think it might have been fairness from
01:25:55 fairness from that earlier email you saw where matt smith and andy bridges from rje were talking about it and he said any queries go back to terry about it yeah that's what i did at any time when you were
01:26:06 you were going back and forth to mr ashton did you ever ask him whether xover had considered the cladding or otherwise analyzed the impact of the refurbishment on
01:26:15 on the external spread of flames i did not
01:26:19 in your experience based on you've obviously worked for ryden for a long time
01:26:23 time did ryden normally engage a fire engineer when carrying out major construction or refurbishment works um my experience i'd say i have no experience of them doing it but
01:26:34 experience of them doing it but that doesn't say that on the larger buildings i've done there hasn't been a fire
01:26:39 fire strategy document but say i have no recollection of ever seen one on a riding site
01:26:48 but i don't know who's specifically talking about yeah sort of the high-rise buildings or the other new build buildings i've done for rides
01:26:57 and i want to ask you just a few questions about mr carl stokes the fire risk assessor um if we look at paragraph 71 it's on this page we don't need to go anywhere else it's
01:27:09 we don't need to go anywhere else it's here um
01:27:10 here um you say i liaise with carl stakes fire risk assessor for kctmo mainly answering his queries following his far risk assessment inspections do you see that there yes i do what was your understanding of carl
01:27:21 do what was your understanding of carl stokes's role relating to the refurbishment um well my understanding was he had no role in refurbishment he was a client so kctmos fire risk assessor
01:27:33 fire risk assessor yeah now at paragraph 102 of your statement
01:27:37 statement can we have a look at that so there you tell us that you walked round the tower with carl stokes on the 4th of february 2016 and you say the main purpose of this
01:27:48 and you say the main purpose of this meeting was to look at areas impacted by the planned opening of the entrance atrium and the alteration to residents access route into the tower do you see that there yes
01:28:00 do you see that there yes um but was that um visit also to carry out a pre-assessment of the building works prior to handover it was kind of that effect the reason we
01:28:12 it was kind of that effect the reason we called carl down and i think it was done through
01:28:14 through claire was we wanted to open the entrance lobby and part of the requisite from the client
01:28:22 client was to get some kind of completion certificate we'd ask building control to give us completion certificate for the area so they would client with or casey team i expected that then it would be safe for the residents
01:28:33 then it would be safe for the residents to come through the area um building child when i asked them said no we won't give you a completion certificate until the whole building is done
01:28:40 done that is more a fire risk assessment thing so then we asked the client to send their fire risk assessor down to assess the new entrance route and sort the new access egress route for the residents
01:28:53 access egress route for the residents but he would say yes it's safe for them to come through yeah because we needed to get them through that entrance lobby to be able to finish off the second floor
01:29:01 floor where the old entrance was or where the old access bridge was because that the old access was where the last flat was going to go so until we get them coming through the new lobby we couldn't finish off our works
01:29:12 couldn't finish off our works right yeah thank you that's helpful um can we just look at a couple of emails relevant to this ryd3066527
01:29:28 this is an email from steve blake to matt smith and you're copied in 1st of february 2016.
01:29:37 2016. hello matt i've arranged to meet carl stokes to carry out a pre-assessment of the building works prior to handover do you see that there yes yeah um and did you also understand that this
01:29:49 and did you also understand that this visit was going to enable mr stokes to prepare his record of significant findings and action plan which he then subsequently prepared in april 2016.
01:30:00 april 2016. that's just to me it's just a grand name for his fire risk assessment that's what it was yeah let's have a look at an email just briefly on this
01:30:11 ryd3065985
01:30:18 this is steve blake and i think it's carl stokes we can see it says morning carl and you're copied in um and he says um could we meet at
01:30:29 um and he says um could we meet at grenfell next thursday we are rapidly reaching the conclusion of the project and would appreciate the opportunity to ensure
01:30:35 ensure we have covered all formalities in respect of a fire risk assessment do you see that there yes
01:30:43 now mr stokes's record of significant findings and action plan is dated the 26th of april 2016. let's just turn that up it's at ryd three zeros nine four three one five
01:31:00 and we look at page two of this
01:31:05 this is what it looked like do you remember seeing this on the project yes yeah and what was your understanding of the purpose of this document it was his fire risk assessment so it
01:31:17 it was his fire risk assessment so it was the client's fire risk assessment he was working for kctmo and was it to satisfy the tmo that fire safety issues had been resolved uh well yes that's the idea of fire risk assessment
01:31:28 assessment purpose of it now we can see that you asked mr stokes to visit the site again
01:31:35 again just before this assessment was prepared on the 7th of march 2016 if we can go to paragraph 102 of your statement on page 23.
01:31:51 so we see that in the last line on the 7th of march 2016 i requested that he visit the site again do you see that there and then we can see this in your email to him of the 7th of march which is at ryd3070161
01:32:11 and if we could blow the top up this is an email from you to him and you say this in the the third paragraph there i'd like to get you back to site this week to update the grenfell
01:32:22 to site this week to update the grenfell fire risk assessment to satisfy the client
01:32:25 client so we open the main entrance lobby for residents however i understand that the client needs to agree this as you'll need to visit again once all systems are fully commissioned you see that there yes what did you mean
01:32:38 you see that there yes what did you mean by
01:32:39 by to satisfy the client there
01:32:43 but the satisfied decline the the entrance lobby was safe to open so i think the one on the fourth of february talked about earlier was like a pre-visit this is what i'm going to need of you
01:32:54 to need of you so then we was in the month after that done a load of work in terms of i say i remember correctly i think we opened the entrance lobby on the 17th of march so we were very close to being ready and we
01:33:06 we were very close to being ready and we were trying to get everyone's approval that it was ready to let residents through yeah now what i want to ask you about now is some comments mr stokes has made
01:33:17 now is some comments mr stokes has made about what he was told about the cladding
01:33:19 cladding yep okay so i want to look at his witness statement um this is at cst403063 at page
01:33:34 42. and i want to look at paragraph 120
01:33:44 and he says this he says when inspecting the tower in april 2016 i spoke to various people including representatives from ryden however i cannot now remember exactly who i spoke to on this occasion
01:33:56 to on this occasion as i had noted the isolated test cladding panel when visiting the tower in 2014 and in particular timber battens that were being used at that time i asked about how the cladding had
01:34:07 i asked about how the cladding had eventually been fixed to the tower as can be seen from my handwritten notes following discussions with representatives of ryden i recorded ok f r no
01:34:18 i recorded ok f r no timber and cladding external non-combustible metal fixings signed off by
01:34:25 by bc and then he says um i do not remember the precise conversations i had however my understanding on leaving the tower after my inspection was that the actual cladding was compliant with the building
01:34:36 cladding was compliant with the building regulations and that the obvious presenting issue the timber buttons had been dealt with as metal fixings were now being used and then in addition as far as i was concerned the cladding itself and the
01:34:48 concerned the cladding itself and the system by which it was fixed to the building had been passed by building control the system and component parts would have been compliant with the requirements of the building regulations and adb
01:34:57 and adb that is what i meant by reference to new fire rated cladding in the april and june 2016 fras fire risk assessments do you see that there yes
01:35:13 now mr stokes says he's referring there to
01:35:17 to initially to these notes that he made okay fr no timber and cladding external non-combustible metal fixings signed off by bc do you recall any discussions you had
01:35:29 do you recall any discussions you had with mr stokes during his visits in april 2016 about those topics specifically no i don't remember but if he says we did we did but the same as him my understanding was
01:35:40 the same as him my understanding was that it had been passed by building control
01:35:42 control and the system and component parts were compliant with building regulations so if i confirmed it to him that was because that was what my understanding was
01:35:50 was right do you have a specific recollection there discussing the the fixings
01:35:56 fixings um no but he says yeah it says no timber i would have definitely confirmed him that there was no timber in the system and that metal fixings were being used i don't remember
01:36:07 don't remember specifically going into fire rating or anything like that but same as him my understanding was that that system was compliant and he he says in the last part of that
01:36:19 and he he says in the last part of that paragraph that as far as he's concerned if the cladding itself and the system by which it was fixed the building had been passed by building control the system and component parts would have been compliant with the requirements of the building regulations
01:36:31 building regulations did you ever have any discussions with him about whether the cladding had been passed by building control um not specifically but the time he's talking about i've
01:36:42 talking about i've struck every single mass climb around the building and we had 20 bit 20 floors of finish cladding there so
01:36:49 there so i would say that was signed off by building control but specifically in terms of yeah actually building control saying yes it's compliant no i have no recollection without saying that to him
01:37:00 without saying that to him no um and
01:37:03 no um and he says that my understanding of leaving the tower after my inspection was that the
01:37:06 the actual cladding was compliant with the building regulations did you ever have that specific discussion with mr stokes i don't remember having that specific thing would it have been you that he was having it would have been me if i had
01:37:18 having it would have been me if i had yes
01:37:19 yes because i was one at that point who mainly dealt with carl when he came inside
01:37:23 inside what about mr stokes asking you what the nature of the cladding materials at grenfell were i don't remember specific conversations i'm sorry i don't so you can't remember a conversation
01:37:35 so you can't remember a conversation where you might have referred to fire rated cladding or talking about the fire performance of the cladding no
01:37:44 is that that you can't recall having those conversations or that um you actually think you didn't have those conversations with him i don't know as i said too earlier i have a lot of conversations with an awful lot of people that's my job
01:37:57 of people that's my job or it's a big part of my job so i'm afraid i don't remember it specifics of every single conversation yeah
01:38:04 yeah but if he said that he took it from that thing that it would have been with me i can confirm that yeah just one last um set of questions on this topic and then we might
01:38:15 then we might pause for a break so i want to take you to an email thread that you weren't copied into but i want to see if it triggers any recollection for you this is it cst402764
01:38:28 for you this is it cst402764 and this is an email thread of the 24th of april 2017.
01:38:35 now the genesis of this email chain is that the lfb had sent the tmo a letter just so you understand dated the 6th of april 2017 about
01:38:47 dated the 6th of april 2017 about external cladding and glazing following the shepherd's court fire so the tmo had got a letter about that fire
01:38:55 fire and i want to pick this up at the bottom of page one so janice ray we can see at 9 34
01:39:05 asks carl stokes she says carl my understanding is that we do not have any blocks with external cladding of this nature are you able to confirm please i need to write back to our director of housing
01:39:17 write back to our director of housing and i think you're probably best placed to advise me on the construction of our blocks do you see that
01:39:23 see that yes and then if we look at his response to that we can see that he says on the 24th of april 2017 at 12 20
01:39:35 on the 24th of april 2017 at 12 20 as far as i know that is correct grenfell was clad but the cladding complied with the requirements of the building regulations lots of questions asked of writings and answers received back from them
01:39:47 answers received back from them do you see that then um now do you remember mr stakes contacting you at this time at any time in 2017 or april 2017
01:39:58 at any time in 2017 or april 2017 and asking you questions about the cladding uh no i had no correspondence and um would you say that the exchanges you'd had with mr stokes in 2016
01:40:11 you'd had with mr stokes in 2016 um resembled lots of questions asked of writings and answers received back from them
01:40:16 them well there was lots of queries in fire risk assessment so you could say that was lots of questions yeah but i also would expect that he would have talked to the earlier site team as well it was he been down to grenfell prior to my
01:40:28 been down to grenfell prior to my involvement a number of times i knew that
01:40:30 that so he may have spoken he may have asked lots of questions then as well so over the duration he did ask lots of questions but
01:40:39 yeah mr chairman i think that's a good moment for her for a break yes so do i thank you
01:40:44 thank you we'll have a short break now mr hughes um
01:40:48 um if we say 25 past will that be all right for you that's fine yeah give a few minutes thank you so please remember not to talk to anyone else about your evidence or anything to do with the refurbishment
01:40:59 do with the refurbishment and if you'd like to go with the usher we'll resume it thank you thank you very much
01:41:11 right 25.3 then thank you very much
01:56:12 would you ask mr hughes to come back in please
01:56:19 it does too right mr hughes you ready to carry on
01:56:30 right mr hughes you ready to carry on yes i am thank you strange yes thank you um just a follow-up question on building control can we just look at your witness statement
01:56:37 statement uh on page 12 at the bottom of the page
01:56:47 if we look at the bottom of the page 61.1
01:56:50 61.1 so we went through this in detail previously you say there on the 30th of october 2015 was your first contact with building control when i requested a site visit from john hoban on 2nd of november 2015
01:57:02 hoban on 2nd of november 2015 so steve and i could discuss the project with him you see that there and then over the page on 61.2 we we asked you about the you say i
01:57:14 we we asked you about the you say i requested that john hope and visit site to inspect the cladding on the 11th of november 2015. do you see that there yes now going back to 61.1
01:57:23 to 61.1 was there a separate visit from john hoban on the 2nd of november 2015. i before the one on the 11th of november
01:57:32 november 20th uh yes i believe he turned up the day after i believe he turned up on the third in november right he was he didn't turn up when stephen i was there right but he turned up the next day i see so did you meet him on that day
01:57:45 did you meet him on that day yes when you say he didn't turn up when stephen no so i requested he turned up on the second yeah sorry got no record he did thing but i remember him on site the day after yeah can we just
01:57:57 on site the day after yeah can we just look at a document this is rbk403041
01:58:04 and i want to look at page four
01:58:17 so there in the middle of the page we can see these are some notes we've got from rb casey's system it says
01:58:24 it says uh 2nd of november 2015 cladding inspection and meeting with new project manager
01:58:29 manager so is what you're saying that that didn't happen on the second but it happened on the third sorry my recollection's wrong then he must have turned i didn't think he met with me and steve so he might not turn up when steve might
01:58:40 so he might not turn up when steve might have left sight at that point so then that was one and yes he's saying that he met with me hello as i say i was never the project manager and can you help us as to what was discussed at that meeting
01:58:51 was discussed at that meeting um no i'm afraid i can't i can't remember it would have been sort of introduction have a quick walk around with him and just check he was okay and you can't remember whether the cladding system specifically was discussed specifically no
01:59:02 discussed specifically no okay um moving on then just a few questions about fire doors can we go to a document
01:59:14 ryd3078593 and i want to look at an email at the bottom of page one and on to page two you there send mike brown
01:59:27 you there send mike brown of ryden um you're attaching the grenfell tower significant findings and action plan april 2016 and you say mike client fra and ryden
01:59:39 and you say mike client fra and ryden comments as discussed and then you say this biggest thing to prove fd30 to riser cupboards do you see that there
01:59:46 there yes can you help us as to what that meant it was the riser cupboards or i described them earlier the cupboards on the existing lobby so from the 4th all the way up to the 24th floor it was
01:59:57 the way up to the 24th floor it was proving
01:59:57 proving that those doors were fd30s there was no markings on them because i think they've been painted yeah so we were trying to find um sort of records from who we got them from
02:00:09 of records from who we got them from that we had been supplied fd30 doors yeah if we can then look at your email at the top of page one from you to steve blake um you say there at point one
02:00:21 um you say there at point one let's say just hi steve non-fire-rated doors doesn't make sense for following reasons and then you say we fitted smoke seals into doors now can you help us as to what doors you're referring to there uh
02:00:33 you're referring to there uh same doors so i'm talking about this on each of those riser cupboards from fall through to the 23rd tour not 24. there was two doors yeah i'm talking about those doors in the new riser cupboards
02:00:44 the new riser cupboards the ones at ryden's bill and if we keep going in that aft after the numbered points there's a sentence that says john hoban stated on last walk around that
02:00:55 around that doors including cupboards of protected lobbies must be fire-rated do you see that there yes now can you help us did ryden ever carry out any works to the stairway
02:01:06 ever carry out any works to the stairway doors the doors between the stairs and the lobbies on levels 4 to 23. the only works we did was paint them right okay so did you fit any smoke seals to these
02:01:19 so did you fit any smoke seals to these no we didn't that was done by the client contractors or sorry kctmos contractors which contractors were they i don't know it was done prior to my time but i know there was some record emails on the system about
02:01:32 record emails on the system about it because the contractors had left in the right mess and all the residents thought it was to do with us but it wasn't sorry by us i mean ryden's i see so ryden didn't do any work at all
02:01:43 i see so ryden didn't do any work at all to any of those stair doors nope apart from painting them
02:01:48 yeah okay um and i want to ask you some questions about the health and safety file um now we've looked at the
02:02:02 um now we've looked at the question of fire risk assessment and can we call up again the record of significant findings and action plan dated the 26th of april 2016. this is at ryd
02:02:12 ryd three zeros 94315 at page two
02:02:24 and what i want to do now is look at page three and look at the first item in the third column so here um what we see
02:02:35 so here um what we see is uh unidentified risk or hazard third third column on the left it says when the construction refurbishment work is completed
02:02:43 completed on this building all information as required by the building regulations must be handed over to the tmo by the contractors before they hand over the areas now under their control do you see that there yes
02:02:54 see that there yes and if you look in the next column along on the right under item two it says all the regulation 38 information as required by the building regulations yes do you see that and it's marked as a high priority in the
02:03:06 high priority in the the second red column um were you aware at the time of the requirements of regulation 38 of the building regulations to provide fire safety information to the responsible person
02:03:18 information to the responsible person uh no but i was aware that we had to hand over a health and safety file and own
02:03:22 own file to the client at the end of the job so you didn't know what your separate duties might be under regulation 38
02:03:33 if it was anyone's responsibility was that your responsibility within ryden to ensure that fire safety information was passed to the client um no i wouldn't say it was i'd say it's
02:03:44 um no i wouldn't say it was i'd say it's a whole team's responsibility to pass it on
02:03:46 on right but is it well i think we've talked about we employed a specialist to do the o m's for us provide all the information to him
02:03:54 him yeah within ryden were you responsible for overseeing the production of the um operation and maintenance oh and m manual
02:04:02 manual no but i helped a lot with it he's i don't know where but we contracted a company called all group holdings to do the owning file and health and safety file for him it was part of his contract to obtain
02:04:15 it was part of his contract to obtain the information and compile it in the way that the client wanted but my agreement was there was an awful lot of
02:04:21 lot of things we had on our files so like i'm sorry excuse me snagging sheets had to go into it there were certain things he wouldn't get from anyone else apart from ryden's so i sent over the documents that we had
02:04:32 so i sent over the documents that we had in our system and i also said that if you struggle with any contractors let us know as soon as you can and we'll sort of give them a little g up as well yeah i think you began that
02:04:44 up as well yeah i think you began that answer when i asked you where you responsible with that with a no but i helped a lot with it if not your responsibility who else within ryden was responsible for making sure judicial contract it would be in my mind
02:04:55 judicial contract it would be in my mind he would be the contracts manager to do that i see so that would be steve blake by this time now as you've explained already we know that all group holdings were
02:05:06 that all group holdings were asked to provide and produce an o m manual and a health and safety file for grenfell tower what steps did you take to ensure that the file was properly completed
02:05:17 the file was properly completed um when say took a long time to do it i think over about four months it took to compile thing and get all the information together and i know at one point i got one of a
02:05:29 and i know at one point i got one of a draft and i had a quick look through it at the time i didn't know any issues with it but i never saw the finished um file it was handed to claire williams by
02:05:41 it was handed to claire williams by steve butler i think from all groups holding and say at the time she had the principal design or principal designer um
02:05:50 um how were all group holdings going to collate the information that it needed well in line with the um i'm pretty certain they had the contract document we set out what needed to go in in it we set out well we
02:06:01 needed to go in in it we set out well we sent them
02:06:02 sent them so they could give us a quote the relevant section of the uh sorry the mbs specification about saudi ers began their specification the relevant sections that he needed to find out what you need to get off the
02:06:13 find out what you need to get off the contractors i see so you expected all group holding to then liaise with the subcontractors to get that information um we did i did have a couple of meetings with him along the way
02:06:24 meetings with him along the way sort of checking on progress so i certainly was involved in the meeting with him and claire as well because obviously ultimately we were trying to satisfy claire that she had all the information she needed and at the end of the process did you take steps to satisfy yourself that the
02:06:36 take steps to satisfy yourself that the o
02:06:37 o m manual that was presented to the tmo was the complete manual i never saw the completed manual he got handed to claire i think by thumb drive
02:06:47 drive do you know why you never saw it um just never got a copy of it or it never went on our systems time did you understand that there were requirements in the cdm regulations for the preparation of a health and safety
02:06:58 the preparation of a health and safety file
02:06:59 file yes as i said i am aware that one of our sort of contractual obligations is to supply an o m file and a health and safety file at the end of the contract and did you know what that file had to contain um well anything relevant or as set out
02:07:12 um well anything relevant or as set out in
02:07:13 in sorry i keep still calling the ers as set out in the specification i see so you didn't look at a particular document or guidance to to help you as to what it should contain i would expect what was in the specification
02:07:24 what was in the specification would be what was required now two copies of the health and safety file have been provided to the inquiry one from ryden and one from the tmo
02:07:37 and one from the tmo the ryden version has a section four health and safety file but this section contains no information whereas the tma version contains an index that we'll look at at the moment can you help us as to why there might be
02:07:49 can you help us as to why there might be two versions of the health and safety file
02:07:52 file that are different one from as i said i got an earlier draft of it and that would be the one which was on our systems so that would be the one that i had to look at but i believe the rn files
02:08:03 look at but i believe the rn files actually got handed to claire sort of after practical completion and it was given to her on a thumb drive but i never
02:08:10 i never got a separate thumb drive so i could cop it on to our system yeah can we look at a document this is
02:08:19 met3065979 this is an email of the 23rd of may 2016.
02:08:30 so this is from steve blake to neil reed and you're copied in and it says we're all working towards a partial possession handover date 27th of may 16 which is four days away
02:08:43 27th of may 16 which is four days away um and then you can see towards the bottom just before the end of the email the o m dropbox link will be provided later today do you see that
02:08:54 today do you see that yes is it possible that because partial possession in hyundai was contemplated that there was an earlier draft but incomplete version of the o m manual and then later a second first
02:09:06 m manual and then later a second first version after full practical completion is that possibly the reason why we see two different possibly i don't know if that's absolutely correct or whether it was just to say we we started work on it i believe back
02:09:19 we we started work on it i believe back in sort of april time and uh yeah we had a partial copy from
02:09:24 copy from steve butler yeah can we look at a document which is the contents page for the health and safety file this is tmo100
02:09:40 so this is the contents page for the health and safety file which was included in the building manual can you remember seeing this before um as i said i only looked at the draft
02:09:51 um as i said i only looked at the draft version which would have been probably as you say around about march time right um so no i and i didn't look at it in great detail no we can see from an email on the 7th of june 2016
02:10:03 of june 2016 that you were copied into this contents page
02:10:06 page um can you see that it was it includes um cross references to other parts of the building manual do you see that there yeah did you ever check those cross-references no were you aware of guidance
02:10:20 no were you aware of guidance supporting the cdn regulations which explains what a health and safety file should and shouldn't include specifically as to exactly what it should include no i'm not aware but i am aware that it
02:10:31 no i'm not aware but i am aware that it is a contractual obligation to supply if we look there at b1
02:10:36 b1 under architectural design it says architects as built drawings and then it says please refer to the drawings located in the building manual part 2 section 2.1.2.2 do you see that
02:10:47 section 2.1.2.2 do you see that yes i do and then if we can look at
02:10:54 tmom701
02:11:03 this is the contents page for the building manual and if we go to page nine which is section two what we see is there's no 2.1.2.2
02:11:15 what we see is there's no 2.1.2.2 it's not there and it's not over the page
02:11:19 page if you look over the page so that cross-reference appears to be wrong did you notice that at the time no i did not did you ever check points like that to check that if
02:11:31 like that to check that if i remember i remember looking at it very briefly
02:11:34 briefly but not going over it in great detail now in its investigations we've discovered that the ryden version of the o
02:11:43 o m manual was edited on the 14th of june 2017 that's the night of the fire we can look at the metadata if we can go to blarp2606
02:11:58 to blarp2606 at page 208
02:12:10 yeah and if we can blow up that top box this is figure 17.1 and what we can see is that the metadata for the
02:12:21 for the uh manual has been accessed and it says created
02:12:26 created 14th of june 2016. do you see that there yes
02:12:29 yes were you aware of the o m manual being accessed or edited that day um i was in the office on the day of the fire so i was outside steve blake's
02:12:40 fire so i was outside steve blake's office
02:12:40 office and on the day of fire i say it is very blurry that day i know i had a meeting with health and safety department where i was asked to get the relevant documents and then we transferred them to a new
02:12:51 and then we transferred them to a new part of our system so i think simon o'connor talked about there's an m drive but there's also on ryden's there's a filing system called the away system which was a newer system
02:13:02 system which was a newer system and that's what the majority of the company worked off at the time so the meeting i had health and safety team asked me to sort of get the relevant documents and one of the first ones i got was the own m file and i copied it across to the rms
02:13:15 file and i copied it across to the rms or
02:13:15 or in our way system i don't know if that is the reason why it looks like there's a new creation yeah that helps did you
02:13:28 did you do anything with the contents of the file no you just saved it over well yeah just copied it over from one part of our system the old part of our filing system to the new part of our filing system yeah
02:13:39 yeah that's helpful um so just one last question on this topic if we can go to art four zeros five three six two page four
02:13:56 sorry we ought to just five three six two
02:14:04 so if we just go to the back of the start of these meeting minutes these are some meeting minutes i think from the yes the 23rd of february 2016 progress meeting 20 and we can see your
02:14:16 progress meeting 20 and we can see your present and if we can go to item 2.20 on page four
02:14:24 and
02:14:27 we can see that there's um an action there about fire protection works to start with nothing furthers to be progressed other than the remedial works required of the
02:14:38 than the remedial works required of the clerk of works in relation to ryden's own works um and then if we keep going down carl stokes will report produce a report in the form of the fire risk assessment and then
02:14:49 then n at the end nr requested that this be included in the health and safety file cdm on completion as a formal recognition of a fire risk shortfall and potential residual risk arising from the building in its
02:15:01 arising from the building in its previous form do you see that yes do you know whether the health and safety file was ever updated to include this uh no i don't but i also think that what holstox is talking about is what we
02:15:12 holstox is talking about is what we talked about earlier which is the holes through the existing riser cupboards which we fireproof yeah so there was no reason and we also did something very similar down
02:15:21 down in the main electrical couple as well fireproof some existing holes so where we saw issues with complementation we fixed them yeah so i now just want to ask you a few
02:15:33 yeah so i now just want to ask you a few brief questions about the um smoke control system and the related um interface panels um so in your statement you say that you
02:15:44 um so in your statement you say that you ran a tour for the local fire brigade on the 26th of july 2016 at which you showed them the operation of the human mechanical interface hmi panel for the smoke extract system
02:15:57 hmi panel for the smoke extract system and the automatic opening vents in the lobby areas now you discuss this if we just have a quick look at paragraphs 92 and 93 of your witness statement on pages 21 and 22.
02:16:15 so that's where you say that you ran familiarization tours you talk about the tmo in 91 and then the tour for the fire brigade
02:16:26 the tour for the fire brigade on the 26th of july 2016 and 92. now is this hmi human mechanical interface panel the main control panel for the smoke extract system
02:16:37 for the smoke extract system in the lobby yes the one in the lobby yes can you remember how you demonstrated the operation of that hmi panel
02:16:44 panel and the aovs for the fire brigade um no i don't remember specifically but i knew it was a fairly simple system but i obviously had well i got to learn how it worked through with um
02:16:56 through with um sorry with jsw and psb so it was quite a simple one i think i just showed the fire brigade the very simple thing
02:17:03 thing and there was a little instruction manual to the side and they sort of explained that because i say the to the side there was a little instruction manual which related the numbers on the panel to the
02:17:15 related the numbers on the panel to the levels that the aovs were on in the building so the floor levels yeah i see and was the smoke extract system and the avs working during the tours that you did yes
02:17:29 the tours that you did yes and where the lfb provided with instructions as to the operation of that uh smoke extract system to your knowledge to my knowledge no yeah now if we can look at paragraph 118
02:17:41 yeah now if we can look at paragraph 118 of your witness statement on page 26.
02:17:48 you say at this point you say i was involved in the end of defects eod inspection at the end of may 2017 about two weeks before the fire it was arranged with claire williams and
02:17:59 it was arranged with claire williams and was booked for a full two days on the 30th of may 2017 i walked round with claire williams tom bishop ride and site agent and on the 1st of june 2017 gary martin
02:18:10 june 2017 gary martin site manager joined us do you see that there yes
02:18:13 there yes and then um you tell us in 119 the reason for an eod end of defects inspection is to revisit all of the building works at the end of the 12-month defect period to see if any
02:18:25 12-month defect period to see if any works defective and requires repairing with the aim of creating one definitive list of defects when all defects have been rectified inspected and approved or signed off by the client's representative their responsibility
02:18:36 responsibility for any further issues is the clients do you see that there yes you do now um then looking at paragraph one two one of your state of the statement
02:18:50 you say in the first few lines there that it was during the walk out of the community
02:18:55 community walk round of the communal lobbies on the upper floors on the 1st of june 2017 that i noticed that the environmental function of the smoke extract system was not working do you see that there yes um
02:19:08 do you see that there yes um when you realized that um did you think to yourself well if the environmental aspect of that system's not working then there might be a problem with the smoke control aspect of that system
02:19:19 smoke control aspect of that system uh yes i did think that
02:19:23 and you also say that you you went this is in the next few lines i checked the main control panel with claire williams present and noticed that it did not appear to be showing that any
02:19:34 it did not appear to be showing that any vents were open do you see that there now is that the same hmi panel that you demonstrated to the fire brigade and others yeah um and had the hmi panel previously shown
02:19:47 and had the hmi panel previously shown if it was working that the vents were open
02:19:50 open uh if the vents were open it would show on the panel yeah so you could see that on this occasion and you say that claire williams of the tma
02:19:58 tma told you that a company who was going to take over the maintenance of the smoke extract system had come to look at it two weeks previously and had set the system off yes we see that there
02:20:09 off yes we see that there what was claire williams's reaction to this discovery that the environmental system wasn't working and that none of the events were showing as open on the panel
02:20:20 as open on the panel um i remember is claire was also shocked i don't think it was clear who called him in
02:20:25 him in he's my understanding was kctmo as i said i'm sorry go back stage in the defects once that's had buildings handed over and we've proved we've done everything or all the outstanding defects which
02:20:36 or all the outstanding defects which have occurred in last year then it's kctmo's responsibility kctmo from my understanding were starting to line up contractors to carry on the maintenance and servicing of brentfell so i think
02:20:49 and servicing of brentfell so i think somebody
02:20:50 somebody jumped the gun trying to get them in but i do remember claire being sort of saying that she was shocked because it wasn't her who called him in did she seem to understand the potential significance of the system not working
02:21:02 significance of the system not working in terms of the smoke control system i understand that claire would yeah would be rightly worried but also just um it comes a lot afterwards that it might not be such a big thing anyway
02:21:13 might not be such a big thing anyway because
02:21:13 because it was a really hot day when we done that walk around and the environmental system also had a shut-off system on it which if the air outside
02:21:22 outside is hotter than the air inside then it wouldn't work it would wouldn't basically bring in hotter air the idea was to keep the lobby areas cooler so if it was hotter outside and it was inside
02:21:33 outside and it was inside it wouldn't bring the air in and it was a really hot day but we don't know what sort of two days we did the walk around were hot days right did you have that thought at the time i didn't have that for a time my
02:21:44 time i didn't have that for a time my worry at the time was that it didn't look to be working i'd expect it i think i don't know where we tried to explain but it didn't work on every floor every time so if you went through a rotation do you
02:21:56 so if you went through a rotation do you want to just sorry can you just slow down a little bit okay um
02:22:02 so i think we got to you said it wasn't going to work on every floor at every time yes okay it worked on a rotation system so it would do if i remember
02:22:14 would do if i remember every five floors at a time and then it would work for 15 minutes then it would move up a rotation yeah so yeah and like i said it only were it also had a temperature sensor outside
02:22:27 also had a temperature sensor outside that if the air outside was hotter than the air inside it wouldn't work so all you'd be doing was bringing hotter air in and that wasn't the purpose of the system but i think so i think also say that i wasn't sure
02:22:39 so i think also say that i wasn't sure because
02:22:39 because in terms of me walking around we were also that day going in and out of flats looking at any defects inside the flats but i might have happened to miss the rotation
02:22:51 rotation did you explain to miss williams at this time the relationship between the environmental system and the smoke control system at the time i don't think i did but i would hope the claire was aware of what
02:23:02 would hope the claire was aware of what we had done because obviously we had done the work a year earlier and it was part of our specification now you go on in your statement to explain that you were sufficiently concerned that you reported the malfunction to j.s
02:23:13 malfunction to j.s wright's aftercare department that's right isn't it you phoned it through to js wright's aftercare team can you recall what was js wright's response when you did that
02:23:24 response when you did that same as every time i phoned them up that they would get it organized as quick as possible
02:23:28 possible yeah and i'm pretty certain they asked me to send it over an email and i sent over an email and sent some photos yes we can see that if we go to
02:23:39 ryd3094213 at page 64 there's an email you sent on the 1st of june to their aftercare department
02:23:51 to their aftercare department where we can see you're saying further to my emails about defects at grenfell the environmental mode on the aov system is not working i walked all 24 floors on tuesday it was not operating on any floor
02:24:02 not operating on any floor do you see that and we can see from the attachments that you're sending photos um do you know whether js wright followed up on the defect report i now know they didn't but at the time i
02:24:16 i now know they didn't but at the time i had no reason to suspect they wouldn't because jsw had the best aftercare department that i've worked with yeah but there was a couple of times in the year previously i'd gone up there and phoned for a defect and somebody
02:24:27 and phoned for a defect and somebody arrived an hour later did you ever check whether they had attended to the matter or somebody else had attended to the mata no i didn't did you ever contact claire williams again to emphasize the importance of this
02:24:38 importance of this issue no i didn't did claire williams subsequently contact you about the system no she didn't
02:24:49 now we know that you're that was i think your last visit to grenfell tower wasn't it the first of june 2017. um can we turn to a document this is
02:25:02 ryd3086541
02:25:09 i think this was your weekly defect update report for grenfell tower and i want to look i know it's quite a small font here but look at line six
02:25:22 font here but look at line six um in the the main text there's a there's a line that says aov system not working properly that you can see in the description do you see that there and you've got
02:25:33 do you see that there and you've got service by js wright in the next column it's created on the first of june 2017 and then you've got a target complete date of the 29th of june 2017. do you
02:25:46 date of the 29th of june 2017. do you see that there yes can you explain why that target complete date was 28 days after the defect had been locked um no this i say
02:25:57 um no this i say this document is dealt with by our ryden's aftercare department and they're obviously given response times as per the contract i don't understand why it was given a date that thing
02:26:09 why it was given a date that thing that long did you not think that it needed to be dealt with more urgently i never saw this document and as i said every other one i'd ever phone through to jsw was dealt with
02:26:21 to jsw was dealt with very rapidly okay um final topic for my questions mr hughes i just want to ask you about
02:26:33 mr hughes i just want to ask you about snagging of broken and drafty windows
02:26:38 to what extent were you made aware during your time on the project or indeed after when you went back to grenfell tower that there were complaints being made about gaps around the windows
02:26:50 about gaps around the windows i did visit a couple of flats and felt a bit drafty in a few places so you agree that you did receive some complaints about drafty windows
02:27:03 complaints about drafty windows and i visited a couple of flats as well sorry afterwards and during the works as well can we just look at just two emails on this um so if we go har three zeros
02:27:15 um so if we go har three zeros one seven five three eight
02:27:26 so this is um someone called emma kelly of ryden to you sorry it's to be fair to ben bailey and ray bailey but copying you in and she says it's been noted that
02:27:40 in and she says it's been noted that there's a large number of defects relating to windows open on our system some of which have been open as long as august
02:27:46 august this is not acceptable and we're not receiving any response from our chaser emails calls we must ensure that defects are closed out within the target rectification time provided do you see that there yes i do were you concerned at this
02:27:58 yes i do were you concerned at this point about the quality of the window installation uh the quality of the window itself no i wasn't uh
02:28:05 wasn't uh but i asked emma i think phone me and said
02:28:08 said talk can you possibly give bailey's a sort of a chase because we have got this outstanding thing i said to copy me into it i don't remember my thing but i also
02:28:19 remember my thing but i also i think asked steve because steve had the better relationship with harley's to say
02:28:23 say they need to come and sort this out right did any of the concerns that were raised about the quality of the window installation ever triggering you a thought about whether the fire safety of those windows might
02:28:34 the fire safety of those windows might be adequate no i didn't
02:28:39 can we look at another document this is a bit later so that was january 2017. i want to look at may 2017. this is ryd three zeros eight six three six
02:28:52 three
02:29:02 and i want to look on page two there's an email from lee chapman to ben bailey dated the 14th of may yes about and we can see it's about flat 195
02:29:15 and we can see about four paragraphs down it said under the windowsill in the kitchen i can get my fingers underneath probably about a ten millimeter gap then a five millimeter gap up the side in the living room there are
02:29:28 up the side in the living room there are three windows and again there's talk of gaps around three to four millimeters which gets very drafty and windy weather there's now a finishing stripe and it's not sealed et cetera so we we can we get a sense of
02:29:41 et cetera so we we can we get a sense of that
02:29:42 that and then there's various chases uh about this
02:29:46 this were you made aware of this at the time that there were complaints about drafts and gaps around windows i was aware of a couple of them yes and again the same question
02:29:57 yes and again the same question were you not concerned about the quality of the installation of the windows upon being made aware of this kind of complaint it did raise some concerns with me but i was concerned at the time that it was
02:30:08 i was concerned at the time that it was i keep using my hands to try any other straight
02:30:10 straight but it was an issue with the support underneath because none of the issues were ever around the sort of top and sides so i thought if there was gaps around there we would
02:30:21 there was gaps around there we would also be getting reports of water coming in as well and we never had one report of a leaky window at all so my understand what i had in my head that there was an issue
02:30:32 that there was an issue at the bottom with how the metal plate which held the windows up wasn't possibly properly sealed or i'd say i don't remember actually seeing how it was done on site because it's a lot
02:30:44 it was done on site because it's a lot the windows were in thing insulation underneath them i never saw
02:30:49 saw actually how that was finished so wherever not i had in my mind that there was an issue with the ceiling behind that metal plate or the metal bracket the window sat on like i said it was always at the bottom of the windows it was never the top and
02:31:00 of the windows it was never the top and the side
02:31:01 the side so it was never a waterproofing issue otherwise we would have been getting reports of leaky windows as well okay so that's
02:31:09 that's that's the thought process which went through my head at the time yeah were you ever concerned that issues such as poorly installed windows might provide a route for fire spread around the windows no i didn't have any concerns
02:31:23 did you ever investigate these issues personally uh i went into a couple of flats and i did fill the drafts and my remedy was to mastic up the gaps from the inside because at that stage i
02:31:36 from the inside because at that stage i say
02:31:37 say while we had the mask climbers up nobody ever came to me with an issue so the issues didn't start appearing until
02:31:44 until after the mass climbers had finished or had been dropped so it was impossible to get back to the outside
02:31:51 outside and see what my or my suspicions were very true so i just dealt with the issue there was at the time which was the drafts and sealed up
02:32:01 up all around the upvc yeah thank you mr hughes um mr chairman i've come to the end of my questions thank you but we obviously need to take the customy break to see if there's any
02:32:13 the customy break to see if there's any final
02:32:13 final questions yes well as you heard mr hughes
02:32:17 hughes those are all the questions miss grange has for you but we have to have a pause now just to make sure there aren't any further questions that might need to be
02:32:25 be put to you so we're going to break now until we'll pass fall will that be right yes that should be fine until quarter past four and then you come back then we'll see if there any more questions okay thank you you'd like to give the
02:32:37 okay thank you you'd like to give the option of please thank you
02:32:43 all right let's say 4 15. thank you
02:46:13 yes would you ask mr hughes to come back in please
02:46:28 right ready to carry on with you i think just a few more questions okay yes thank you yes just a few um just going back to that second of november 2015 building control visit do you remember we looked at that
02:46:40 visit do you remember we looked at that um just before when we restarted last time
02:46:44 time can you remember whether mr hoban actually went up the hoist and looked at any of the elevations at that point no he didn't first time i took him up the mouse climbers was on that first one we
02:46:56 mouse climbers was on that first one we discussed
02:46:57 discussed the 11th of november uh yes that's it 2015. so not on the 2nd of november 2015.
02:47:03 2015. no no okay because i say i agreed with him to take it up there and it took an awful long time to go up there and come back down you know it was something i pre-booked with him but he would need to give us some
02:47:14 him but he would need to give us some time to do it i understand um and then just on fire risk assessment and fire risk assessors did you have generally have experience of fire risk assess
02:47:25 of fire risk assess assessors considering cladding or the external facade of a building um no i didn't because that probably the first time i've really had interaction
02:47:37 first time i've really had interaction with the client's fire risk assessor yeah yeah what was your understanding about
02:47:42 about why mr stokes was asking about the cladding did he give you any reason part of the uh communal part of the building or the outside of the building so
02:47:51 so he was well i guess informing the client their risks yeah and did he seem to you to have a particular interest in the cladding
02:48:01 no he didn't seem to i always thought more interested on the insider building and how he interacted with residents yeah mr tim and those were all the questions i had that's it well it was a
02:48:12 questions i had that's it well it was a few questions mrs wasn't it thank you very much strange well that's all the questions we have for you okay uh just remains for me to thank you very much for coming to give your evidence it's been very helpful to hear
02:48:23 evidence it's been very helpful to hear you
02:48:24 you and you're now free to go okay thank you very much
02:48:37 thank you very much mr strange that's all for the day i imagine yes tomorrow mr millet will be taking mr blake good and that will be at 10 o'clock that's correct 10 o'clock tomorrow please thank you
02:49:04 you