Rydon Evidence - Tuesday 28th July 2020 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:25 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to hear from another witness who was part of ryden's team uh handling the refurbishment so mr

00:00:36 uh handling the refurbishment so mr millett yes mr chairman good morning uh today we're going to call mr stephen blake

00:00:41 blake yes thank you very much would you ask mr blake to come in please

00:01:01 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare

00:01:05 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give

00:01:08 give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr blake now sit down make yourself comfortable

00:01:21 all right thank you thank you yes mr miller good morning mr blake could we start pleased by you're giving the uh chairman your full name steven william blake thank you now thank

00:01:33 steven william blake thank you now thank you very much first of all for attending today to give evidence we very much appreciate your doing so i'm going to be asking you a number of questions

00:01:40 questions if you have any difficulty understanding any of them please just say and i can ask the question again or i can put it in a different way also if i can ask you please to keep your voice

00:01:50 voice up so that the transcriber who sits to your right can hear you and get down your evidence also just to mention one thing a nod or a shake of the head doesn't go down on the transcript so you do have to

00:02:02 down on the transcript so you do have to say

00:02:03 say yes or no as the case may be and if you need a break at any point other than the scheduled breaks please let us know and we can take a short break now you've made one statement dated the

00:02:14 now you've made one statement dated the 25th of september 2018 which you'll find on the

00:02:17 on the desk in front of you in the black folder and it will also appear on the screen in front of you that's and that is ryd3094225

00:02:30 can i ask you first please to look at the first page of that and confirm that that is your statement to the inquiry

00:02:43 yes it is can i ask you to go to page 14 please

00:02:46 please well there's a signature is that your signature

00:02:50 signature yes have you read this statement recently yes can you confirm that its contents are true yes

00:02:57 true yes now as well as your personal witness statement ryden has given a statement as a company

00:03:02 a company have you read that statement uh not the uh statement that's in the inquiry no right so can i take it from that that you didn't contribute to writing it

00:03:13 didn't contribute to writing it i was asked to assist them with some of the evidence gathering for it i see

00:03:21 it i see did you approve it in its final form no okay

00:03:25 okay have you read it recently no right before coming here today can you confirm to us that you haven't discussed that the evidence you're going to give today with anybody

00:03:37 with anybody yes thank you now i'm going to turn first

00:03:41 first uh by way of introduction almost to backs and

00:03:44 backs and elements of the background and your role as a refurbishment director at ryden i think it's right isn't it that you were refurbishment director at ryden for the duration of the grenfell tower project

00:03:56 project that's correct yes are you still employed by ryden yes i am in what and what is your current role at ryden or your current position there i'm working for uh ryden holmes

00:04:10 i'm working for uh ryden holmes uh in the uh as a production director

00:04:18 i'd like to examine briefly if i may your role as a refurbishment director which was a role i think you had occupied from october 2010 is that right yes

00:04:30 october 2010 is that right yes and i think you came up through the ranks at ryden as it were through being contracts manager construction manager and then refurbishment director yes right yes can i ask you to look at

00:04:41 yes right yes can i ask you to look at your statement on page four please and paragraph 2.5.5 project involvement and you say there with regards each project to each project a team of managers

00:04:53 to each project a team of managers report to me as director on all matters of progress including safety and whether the project is on time and to budget my role is to have an overview which i report to

00:05:04 is to have an overview which i report to the maintenance board on a monthly basis what did the reports you gave to the maintenance board generally comprise um it was a monthly report

00:05:16 um it was a monthly report that gave

00:05:20 that gave as it says a a picture of where we were to

00:05:23 to program it gave an update of commercial matters

00:05:28 matters um and that was its primary primary task and what is the maintenance board or what was the maintenance board [Music]

00:05:39 [Music] it's a a board that reports to the riding group so it consisted of a md a financial director

00:05:52 md a financial director um a commercial director and uh production directors and did the composition of that maintenance board comprise directors of

00:06:03 comprise directors of the company or companies in the ryden group

00:06:06 group yes i was a director of rider maintenance yes i was going to ask you about that um while we're on that when did you become a director of ryden maintenance or rmls

00:06:18 a director of ryden maintenance or rmls i think it's called uh as as you said it's uh 2010 i see and uh did you ever stop being a director of rml

00:06:26 rml no are you still today a director of rml i am

00:06:29 i am thank you are you a director of any other company in the ryden group no can i ask you to look please at ryd four zeros four two nine zero this is a site progress report

00:06:42 zero this is a site progress report dated the sixth date of the 16th of may uh rather dated the 9th of may with the board meeting on the 16th of may and if you could look at the top in

00:06:54 and if you could look at the top in capitals you'll see it says board meeting 16th of may is this an example of the sort of report that you were talking about it is uh and we can see

00:07:05 it is uh and we can see uh that uh later on that comes from you can we take it that you wrote all those reports yourself um the the team

00:07:17 um the the team that i have um so you have a contracts manager

00:07:20 manager and uh commercial manager they will fill in the respective

00:07:29 topics of the report that will be presented to me on a monthly basis and then i will if there's any changes or any editing

00:07:39 editing that i wish to do i will do and then i submit this to the board on a monthly basis thereafter i see now in your statement you say that

00:07:50 i see now in your statement you say that you would report on all matters of progress did all matters of progress include design decisions which had been made

00:07:59 made um not necessarily if

00:08:04 if there was a delay or anything like that then

00:08:08 that then an abnormal would be reported so did it report on the progress that subcontractors had been made in implementing decisions

00:08:19 no not not explicitly i see when a design decision was made who did you consider was responsible for ensuring that the design was consistent with ryden's contractual requirements to the tma

00:08:33 to the person that was um contracted to be responsible for it can we look back at your statement please uh ryd30 is 94225 at page 10.

00:08:45 please uh ryd30 is 94225 at page 10. i'd like just to look with you what you say about design uh at the bottom of page 10 you can see clause 3

00:08:52 clause 3 6.3.1 and it says studio e specified the materials to be used including rayna bond rain screen cladding and celitex insulation and then if we flip over to page 12 in

00:09:04 and then if we flip over to page 12 in the middle paragraph 7.1 fire safety it says in relation to fire safety

00:09:11 safety i had no reason to question the suitability of the materials or the design that had been specified to ryden and then over at page 13 if we can just look at that please paragraph 9.1

00:09:27 it says under the heading compliance ryden

00:09:31 ryden and then you go on to say and in my experience principal contractors in general

00:09:36 general rely upon the specialist designers and consultant team who specify the materials to be used now i've shown you those three quotations from your statement is it

00:09:48 quotations from your statement is it your evidence to the inquiry that other parties primarily studio e were responsible for selecting the materials to be used at grenfell tower

00:09:59 materials to be used at grenfell tower yes and that ryden was as it were neutral

00:10:04 neutral correct

00:10:08 did you ever yourself propose or get involved in the decisions to propose materials for use in the refurbishment of grenfell tower

00:10:19 refurbishment of grenfell tower no can i ask you to go to page seven of your statement and look at paragraph 4.6 we see here that you address the subject

00:10:31 we see here that you address the subject of value engineering you say in the course of a project such as this is it is commonplace for discussion to take place about what savings can be made

00:10:42 place about what savings can be made as part of these discussions consideration is given to value engineering this is a process which considers whether savings can be achieved by using alternative materials and methods are you familiar

00:10:55 materials and methods are you familiar or rather were you at the time familiar with the riba definition of value engineering

00:11:03 um no

00:11:07 in general do you agree or would you did you think at the time that the purpose of value engineering where it is carried out should be to meet the requirements at

00:11:18 should be to meet the requirements at the lowest cost but without sacrificing functionality and safety i would agree with that definitely can i ask you to turn to page two of your statement

00:11:28 statement and look at paragraph 2.2.9 here you say and this was part of your fun part of what you say a a contract manager

00:11:40 manager would do when reporting to you and i should perhaps i should just make it easier for you and go to the beginning of the paragraph on page one rather than summarizing it you say at the bottom of that page the

00:11:52 you say at the bottom of that page the role of the contract manager in the refurbishment team is to deliver refurbishment contracts secured by ryden this includes and then if you go over the page i'd just like to look with you

00:12:03 the page i'd just like to look with you at paragraph 2.2.9 where you say reporting to the refurbishment director on a regular basis on all key aspects of

00:12:14 on a regular basis on all key aspects of the project including safety progress performance management and financial issues

00:12:22 in your well do you agree first of all that when you reported to the maintenance board that you've described you did so uh in relation to whether the project was on time and to budget

00:12:36 correct yes so the question is where you're doing that can we take it that you

00:12:41 you yourself were told all about any value engineering decisions when they were being made

00:12:50 not necessarily when they're being made but when they had been made i see um i'd be told about that yeah i see

00:12:58 see and is that something that you as refurbishment director would expect to be

00:13:02 be kept abreast of by the relevant contract manager yes

00:13:11 and is is it fair to say that you as the most senior ryden representative on this project

00:13:17 project short of the maintenance board had the authority to change a plan or to stop the contracts manager if you thought that any step that

00:13:28 if you thought that any step that they were taking was inappropriate

00:13:32 yes

00:13:35 but is it is it also fair to say that you yourself didn't personally have the expertise to assess whether a material change in design or materials

00:13:47 change in design or materials for the project could be made without sacrificing functionality or safety um that's correct

00:14:00 so when you when you got involved in value engineering what was your actual role

00:14:12 that's what a director or as a refurbishment director

00:14:18 i would be as for refurbishing director i would be informed about uh a choice or a change that the client has made

00:14:32 you'd be informed about it but if you uh knew nothing about the materials that were going to be changed the new materials that were being swapped in new for old

00:14:45 swapped in new for old what could you how could you stop that or make it give advice as to whether that was a wise decision or not

00:14:58 whether that was a wise decision or not well put like that i can't i would be working on the basis that it had gone through a process of governance to check that that was indeed

00:15:10 governance to check that that was indeed the case

00:15:12 the case can i ask you to look at paragraph 2.5.4 of your statement of page four

00:15:22 you say under the heading procurement there

00:15:25 there i am responsible for overseeing the procurement process in relation to each new project and then after that you say the contract manager and the commercial manager produce a procurement schedule and then

00:15:36 produce a procurement schedule and then you say you then oversee the appointment of suitable contractors suppliers and consultants what do you mean by suitable in that context

00:15:49 that they're competent and available to fulfill the the contract what

00:16:00 the contract what due diligence do you generally do or did you generally do at the time 2013-14-15 into the competence of contractors

00:16:12 into the competence of contractors suppliers and consultants to make sure that they

00:16:14 that they are or were suitable for the project

00:16:20 personally or as a as a company personally um

00:16:29 from a personal point of view i i am informed by the progress sheets who the people are with respect to the procurement

00:16:41 with respect to the procurement i wouldn't individually check out anybody myself

00:16:49 but the governance behind it is such that there is a pre-qualification uh questionnaire that uh everyone has to complete

00:17:01 uh everyone has to complete and satisfy to assure that there is

00:17:07 a level of competence and appropriateness for that employee

00:17:16 and from a personal point of view 35 years of experience in the construction industry the majority of contractors

00:17:30 i will know about through and have experience of past performance um attitude and behavior

00:17:40 just following something up in that in that last answer when you say the governance behind it is that there is a pre-qualification questionnaire that everyone has to complete and

00:17:51 that everyone has to complete and satisfy to assure that there's a level of competence and appropriateness uh for uh that task what were the criteria the objective yardsticks if you like by which the

00:18:03 yardsticks if you like by which the suitability of any given subcontractor or proposed subcontractor or sub-consultant would be measured um that they have a company

00:18:15 um that they have a company uh constitution that satisfies the criteria of the questions asked

00:18:22 and

00:18:26 details of the uh of the competencies that they have mr blake if if a new company wanted to be considered by wright and as a potential subcontractor what's the

00:18:39 a potential subcontractor what's the method by which it would go about bringing yourself to your attention and ryden would determine whether it was competent or not could you just talk us

00:18:50 competent or not could you just talk us through that i think that would be helpful

00:18:53 helpful um in the first instance when we're tendering for a contract then we will use the bank of not you know a bank of

00:19:05 use the bank of not you know a bank of database of knowledge that we have about contractors um and i'm just if we can go back one step yeah how does

00:19:16 yeah how does a new company uh get onto your bank so to speak of acceptable um subcontractors a variety of different

00:19:27 um subcontractors a variety of different ways and

00:19:28 ways and it can be as simple as uh ringing up and saying i'd like you know i've heard about this job i'd like to be considered for it here's the experience

00:19:39 the experience that i have um then they'll be sent the questionnaire to complete to satisfy that

00:19:48 and that's a standard form questionnaire is it

00:19:51 is it yes it is yes so they complete the questionnaire send it back yeah and then what happens then

00:19:59 then they'd be sent a tender um so they'd produce a quotation for the for the job okay now before they do that does anyone evaluate the questionnaire

00:20:10 does anyone evaluate the questionnaire that's come in yes that that is part of the hsqe function of the company okay

00:20:21 function of the company okay health safety and environmental yeah so they have to do you know what sort of inquiries they make or do you know how they look into what whatever's on the form so to speak

00:20:32 what whatever's on the form so to speak yeah that have to demonstrate a track record of safety of finance and business systems um for their own governance all right thank you very much i'm sorry

00:20:44 all right thank you very much i'm sorry mr ellison you know very helpful mr chairman

00:20:47 chairman and within those questionnaires or perhaps outside this questionnaire is was there ever any investigation into the uh precise abilities qualifications and experience

00:20:59 abilities qualifications and experience of those subcontractors and sub-consultants for the specific project yeah generally um if they're new to us uh then it's

00:21:11 uh then it's old-fashioned is taking up some references and you know them being able to provide a reference in itself is a is a positive

00:21:23 in itself is a is a positive um and then simply ringing up and asking about them

00:21:33 now i want to ask you about your role as contracts manager which happened a little bit late in the story but just jumping ahead to that because we're still on background if you go to page seven of your statement which is still up on the

00:21:45 statement which is still up on the screen and go to paragraph 4.8 please you can see there that you tell us that in october 2015 you assume the role of contract manager in place of simon lawrence who moved on to other employment

00:21:57 to other employment is one of the reasons that you were able to do that uh that you yourself had previously been a contract manager yes if you look at the penultimate

00:22:08 yes if you look at the penultimate sentence

00:22:10 sentence you say there as contract manager i was not based on site but attended regularly

00:22:17 regularly how frequently did you attend the site um for a six month period um i actually counted this up i went up there from my diary um uh i think it was 70

00:22:31 um uh i think it was 70 75 times um and that was sort of an average of two and a half visits a week and i think i probably made more than

00:22:42 and i think i probably made more than that

00:22:43 that because i'd miss them out rather than record them had simon lawrence been based on site no where he'd be where had he been based prior to him leaving ryden

00:22:56 prior to him leaving ryden oh a mixture um so he had at the beginning of the contract uh another site to attend he and he would have um meetings in the office to

00:23:07 office to in in sussex to attend as well you say that after you became contracts manager you attended on site two and a half times per week well you also

00:23:18 half times per week well you also engaged on other projects for ryden in addition to the grenfell tower refurbishment i was still maintaining my role as uh refurbishment director

00:23:27 director yes and my question is were you engaged on other projects presumably you were yeah but not as contracts manager not as contracts manager how many other projects were you involved in

00:23:38 involved in in your rollers in my opinion in the business stream that i was looking after yes

00:23:43 yes there was probably an average of 10 average of ten products over the two years uh

00:23:53 years uh grenfell was constructed i see so would it be fair to say that from october 2015 there was no full-time contracts manager looking after the grenfell tower refurbishment

00:24:06 um no i think i was fulfilling a full-time row i wouldn't expect a contracts manager to do solely one site um in

00:24:18 solely one site um in in your absence from sight during the that period october 15 onwards who was the most senior ryden employee on site

00:24:28 on site um david hughes [Music]

00:24:31 [Music] assume the role of uh [Music]

00:24:34 [Music] the first in command if you like i see and did david hughes assume any of the roles

00:24:42 roles as contracts manager um he helped out we shared the load of what we needed to do right

00:24:54 what we needed to do right [Applause]

00:24:57 would you expect in general terms that the contracts manager reporting to you uh would be familiar with the terms of the contract with ryden's employer [Applause]

00:25:09 [Applause] they would be familiar yeah and with the terms of the subcontracts to which ryden was a party yes

00:25:20 and so in order for that model to work where ryden was in contract with its client but it had subcontracted out to subcontractors and sub-consultants do you agree that it was essential for

00:25:31 you agree that it was essential for ryden

00:25:32 ryden to ensure two things first that all its responsibilities under its main contract being a d and b contract with its client was was subcontracted to somebody

00:25:46 uh yes and and secondly to ensure that that party was in fact meeting those obligations indeed yes

00:26:00 where are subcontractors obligations included design can you help me understand how ryden would be able to ensure that that person or party was in fact meeting its obligations in

00:26:12 was in fact meeting its obligations in circumstances where as we've heard previously in this inquiry ryden had no in-house design expertise itself

00:26:22 um

00:26:26 well i think as as as has been examined um

00:26:30 um with the the process of ensuring that the

00:26:34 the um subcontractor designs appropriately is is is going through

00:26:41 through a process of design development and approval that would ultimately was put to building control

00:26:54 ultimately was put to building control for their

00:26:56 for their acceptance and perhaps i can take this a little bit differently if you go to your statement of paragraph 2.2.6 on page two we looked at this before

00:27:08 on page two we looked at this before this was

00:27:09 this was a list of things that you would expect to be kept informed of by the the contract manager and it says monitoring contractors consultants and suppliers to ensure the aims of the

00:27:20 suppliers to ensure the aims of the refurbishment product are met and just looking at monitoring uh consultants uh oh how would ryden assess whether a design consultant

00:27:33 ryden assess whether a design consultant was meeting its obligations in circumstances where ryden had no design expertise of its own

00:27:40 um

00:27:45 ensuring that the that they meet their obligations is ultimately uh determined by acceptance of of the building control

00:27:58 of of the building control [Music]

00:27:59 [Music] monitoring is perhaps a reference to a point in time [Music]

00:28:07 [Music] so if they were obliged to produce x drawings by a certain time and they don't then that's what we would that's part of that monitoring process

00:28:20 that's part of that monitoring process well that sounds as if you're saying that

00:28:23 that in 226 there 2.2.6 monitoring simply means

00:28:26 means keeping tabs on progress is that what you're saying and not cat tabs on quality um it's progress and

00:28:37 um it's progress and and quality as well that's that's what i would put under monitoring yes this is your statement and and your words and i'm just seeking to explore with you what you really mean by monitoring okay um so

00:28:50 monitoring okay um so when you're monitoring a design consultant my question is how would you go about

00:28:54 go about ensuring that they are doing a good job

00:29:01 by ultimately is is by them satisfying the the design criteria how would you know that

00:29:13 how would you know that but by it being accepted by whom

00:29:19 by the

00:29:22 compliance with the regulation which would ultimately go to building control via the

00:29:30 via the architects now you also say monitoring suppliers does that tell us that ryden and indeed the contracts manager

00:29:41 ryden and indeed the contracts manager reporting to you when monitoring a supplier would know what materials were being provided and subsequently stored and used on-site

00:29:53 and subsequently stored and used on-site um yeah that that's more of a reference to

00:29:57 to when we purchase the materials ourselves which on occasion we do

00:30:06 and if you look one paragraph down at 2.2.7

00:30:12 monitoring project progress in order to report to the client and refurbishment director

00:30:17 director is it fair to say that the purpose of reporting to the client would say that the client could be aware of how the project was progressing and satisfied that all of the obligations it had imposed on ryden were

00:30:29 obligations it had imposed on ryden were being met

00:30:32 being met that's fair enough yeah and also uh that also included ryden being able to assure the client that its subcontractors in turn were performing in accordance with their own

00:30:44 performing in accordance with their own contracts to ryden yes yes and is it fair to say in general terms that the purpose of the contracts manager reporting these things to you as

00:30:55 manager reporting these things to you as the refurbishment director was so that you could deal with any ways in which this process was not working yes yes

00:31:12 you i think have seen we've seen already at 2.2.9 at the bottom of the page we've seen this before where you say the role of the contract manager included reporting

00:31:22 reporting to the refurbishment director in relation to things like performance management you could see the words you used there when you use the words performance management do you mean the performance

00:31:33 management do you mean the performance of

00:31:34 of ryden and its subcontractors as a chain or group

00:31:41 yes that's that's more a reference to those that we employ but any aspect of that

00:31:48 that did ryden keep any records of the assessment by the contract manager or by you as refurbishment director of those assessments um

00:32:00 of those assessments um that would be if there was a issue that

00:32:09 it would be part of the monthly report so if there's an abnormal about progress that would be put to the board

00:32:22 now sticking with this page at 2.2.5 you identify a site project team and and the wider staff i just want to explore for a moment the

00:32:33 i just want to explore for a moment the reporting process when you say at 2.

00:32:38 2.5 a site project team typically consists of site managers a trainee site manager and a resident liaison officer just hold that and then also go to 2.5.5

00:32:49 just hold that and then also go to 2.5.5 please which you'll find on page four you say a team of managers report to me as director on all matters of progress

00:33:00 as director on all matters of progress including safety and whether the project is on time and to budget and your role is to have an overview

00:33:07 overview just examining the team of managers for the moment for this project is this right simon lawrence was the contracts manager until october 2015. yes

00:33:18 until october 2015. yes correct the project manager's manager was simon o'connor until he left in september in september the project the commercial manager was zach maynard yes and the site manager was did was

00:33:32 yes and the site manager was did was david hughes and variously gary martin and danny osgood and jason and jason north yeah yes and jack and they're on the side over a

00:33:44 and jack and they're on the side over a period of time there was more than that i see now on site um who reported

00:33:49 reported for example to david hughes when he became site manager um everybody reported today

00:33:59 he joined the team and very soon uh demonstrated uh some uh

00:34:11 uh some uh involvement in the project and leadership and uh he assumed that role which is what i wanted him to do and who did the

00:34:19 did the resident the ryden resident liaison officers report to um in my role as director i was responsible for the resident liaison

00:34:31 responsible for the resident liaison team the idea is that they um don't necessarily report to the the managers of of the project because they um should retain uh

00:34:45 um should retain uh an independence and an impartial view to represent the feedback between site and and the residents

00:35:00 but having said that they are obviously part of the site team i think but that's given a little view of them

00:35:08 of them right you you told us i think who they don't necessarily report to who did they necessarily report to was it you me yes was that direct yes right i'm just looking at paragraph

00:35:20 2.5.5 again you say there that the manner the team of managers would report to you on all matters of progress

00:35:29 progress including safety um so you highlight safety there what do what do you mean by safety in that context in that context it's the safe running of

00:35:40 in that context it's the safe running of the site

00:35:41 the site during the construction process would that include compliance with statutory standards

00:35:46 standards of safety um statutory standards yes of course would that include building regulations um that when you ask the first question

00:35:57 that when you ask the first question what was that relating to that that comment is about running the the site

00:36:03 site i see so not about safety of design and build

00:36:07 build no i follow now you referred to a team of managers reporting to you

00:36:16 to you how did you receive their reports was it in writing or did you get an oral report when i was work director or when you were refurbishment director in your

00:36:27 were refurbishment director in your capacity as director as you refer to there um we would meet uh in the the week uh before uh the board meeting set for everyone to

00:36:39 uh the board meeting set for everyone to present their formal reports to me that we said at the beginning

00:36:44 beginning we would go through agree edit if necessary

00:36:48 necessary and then i would present those to the board

00:36:52 board um we would generally have a meeting on a on a monday so the contracts managers would be in commercial manager would be in uh resident liaison officer would be in

00:37:05 uh resident liaison officer would be in and we would have a an informal um report from each of those to me to

00:37:17 each of those to me to let me know what's going on with what they're responsible for now in that last answer you referred to the the presentation of formal reports and then monday informal reports is that

00:37:30 and then monday informal reports is that there's a weekly meeting that we had as a team meeting and then once a month in the week before the board

00:37:37 board there'll be four more reports submitted but just taking it in stages the weekly meetings were they informal informal so there'd be no report in writing to you no the monthlies you say they're formal are

00:37:49 the monthlies you say they're formal are there reports yes and they're get they're given to you by by whom the as i said previously there'll be a section that will be filled in by the contracts manager

00:38:00 contracts manager yes and a section by the commercial team i see

00:38:04 i see and would you pass those on to the maintenance board or would they be for you to

00:38:08 you to use when compiling your report to the maintenance board that they would form my report to the board did you write an agenda or outline

00:38:20 did you write an agenda or outline structure for those reports coming to you

00:38:22 you showing what you wanted to know from them the

00:38:26 them the the reports are in a standard format so it's already set i see

00:38:33 [Applause]

00:38:41 and how would you satisfy yourself that each of ryden's subcontractors from time to time was meeting its obligations through this reporting process

00:38:51 and from feedback from the individual managers

00:38:54 managers um that would be how i'd find out right you didn't ever do any spot checks yourself

00:39:01 yourself i would i would visit site um

00:39:06 on a not on a any sort of regular basis but i would make sure that i'd i'd get round to the sites to

00:39:14 sites to take a view how they were presented did you ever ask those reporting to you to give you assurances that the subcontractors were meeting their

00:39:25 subcontractors were meeting their obligations on time and to budget um generally we dealt with abnormals so if anyone wasn't doing what they should do then that's what i would expect to be

00:39:36 expect to be reported to me were complaints from residents ever raised in either the informal or the formal reporting meetings and sessions um if there was again if it was an

00:39:50 um if there was again if it was an abnormal and there was a a spate of complaints for example then i would expect that to be raised to me um because there's got to be a reason for it

00:40:01 for it so i'd be interested you know as you'd imagine i'd be interested in finding out what that would be now you said a moment ago that you generally dealt with

00:40:12 ago that you generally dealt with abnormals

00:40:13 abnormals what would you count as an abnormal um if someone uh [Music]

00:40:20 [Music] was in financial difficulty they weren't fulfilling their obligations against uh their contract um that's an example right

00:40:31 um that's an example right can i ask you to look at ryd404258

00:40:36 please this is an email from you uh mr blake to a lot of people at ryden uh too many to count

00:40:46 count and copied to a slightly smaller cast and its subject refurbishment structure changes and promotions and the date is the 9th of may 2014 so just for the context you'd been told

00:40:58 so just for the context you'd been told you were the winners of the tender but you hadn't yet signed up to the design and build contract with the tma

00:41:05 the tma that came in the october of that year and you

00:41:08 and you you um say there that um the project gives opportunity for individuals to progress their careers and the neces and the necessity to

00:41:19 and the neces and the necessity to recruit and then you say in recognition of this

00:41:22 of this third paragraph down zack maynard has been promoted to commercial manager and assumes responsibility for estimating together with the surveying simon lawrence has been promoted to contract manager and will lead the recently secured nine million

00:41:33 recently secured nine million pound regeneration of grenfell tower simon o'connor has been promoted to project manager following the success of the saint george's estate and will transfer

00:41:42 transfer to grenfell tower

00:41:45 so is it right looking at those three that for grenfell the contracts manager the project manager and the commercial manager

00:41:54 manager were all operating their first project in those new roles um yeah was it common at ryden for these

00:42:06 um yeah was it common at ryden for these three essential roles i mean disagree with me if you think they're not essential um but was it common for these roles all to be occupied by newly promoted employees on the same

00:42:17 newly promoted employees on the same project

00:42:23 it's not necessarily common but that's recognition of their abilities to do so um so it's

00:42:36 um so it's a young progressive team [Music]

00:42:40 [Music] so yeah that was a point in time yes the of course that would you accept the the

00:42:49 the the flip side of that is that you were putting

00:42:53 putting into this project three individuals who each had no prior experience of the role and position to which you were promoting them

00:43:05 yeah but they um each of them were able to do that role so i had no worries about that at all

00:43:16 i had no worries about that at all what systems did ryden have in place to ensure that these individuals were performing adequately adequately in their new roles um but

00:43:32 i would i would take in the first place a a relationship with me and the quality of the exchanges that we have

00:43:43 and secondly [Music]

00:43:47 [Music] we have a a pdr system which is a personal development review

00:43:56 that you would meet and basically uh agree a framework

00:44:04 of progression and development for that individual was there a mentoring system or system of oversight for

00:44:14 for those newly promoted to roles even in the early days weeks or months of a new role to make sure that they knew what to do um i i would see

00:44:27 um i i would see the mentoring side would largely fall at my

00:44:31 my uh door

00:44:35 uh door there wasn't um

00:44:38 you know across company mentoring um that there has been um but i can't say that that was the case uh

00:44:48 uh for the three that you've identified there now

00:44:52 there now simon o'connor told the inquiry on day 26

00:44:55 26 and it's page 179 at lines 21-23 i'm not going to ask you to look at it but he said that when he was appointed project manager for the grenfell tower refurbishment nobody gave him a

00:45:06 tower refurbishment nobody gave him a job description is that correct um

00:45:13 yes he also said and it's day 26 page 142 line 17 that nobody gave him any

00:45:21 any uh advice or guidance about what to do in his new role was that correct um

00:45:30 yeah i mean i'm not quite sure what simon means there um what i know with respect to the role um

00:45:41 what i know with respect to the role um that i wanted him to fulfill on the contract um was

00:45:49 primarily as as as a site management role

00:45:52 role uh the the title project manager

00:45:58 could um include a a certain level of responsibility of interaction of the design process well did you ever spell out to say i didn't give him that

00:46:09 didn't give him that i'm sorry i i wasn't expecting him to do that

00:46:13 that so his his role is uh was primarily as the lead site site manager

00:46:26 i'm trying to say mr miller is that the role that he was fulfilling at grenfell was no different to the role that he fulfilled on his previous contract except that you promoted him

00:46:40 contract except that you promoted him to project manager yes i did yeah so are you saying that that was just a purely nominal promotion um partially um at the time there was a um a very fierce

00:46:54 at the time there was a um a very fierce um competition for site managers within the whole building arena and

00:47:03 arena and people were being attracted by very substantial job offers in a in a market of under supply so part of my role is is to keep um

00:47:16 part of my role is is to keep um valuable people um working working for for us did you pay mr o'connor

00:47:23 o'connor more money as a result of his promotion yes he'd have been given an increase for that yeah did you tell mr o'connor that even though he was being promoted to project manager his

00:47:35 to project manager his role on the grenfell tower project was exactly the same as it had been as site manager on his previous project i didn't have that conversation with him i would um encourage him to grow into

00:47:49 i would um encourage him to grow into that role

00:47:50 that role um so he would have that opportunity

00:47:58 you would encourage him to grow into the role did you ever spell out mr o'connor precisely where his job

00:48:05 his job began and ended in respect of the new project manager role he was to occupy on grenfell no why is that

00:48:17 because i didn't i feel i needed to at that point in time did you ever thereafter feel you needed to no when you became

00:48:29 no when you became contract manager and took that rollover from simon lawrence in the october of 2015. who was your line manager uh my line manager is uh md of

00:48:41 uh my line manager is uh md of maintenance that's jeff henton right would you report to him in the same way or did you report to him in the same way

00:48:52 or did you report to him in the same way that simon lawrence had reported to you before he gave up his role as contracts manager and left um yes yeah you did yes maybe we'll explore

00:49:03 yeah you did yes maybe we'll explore that

00:49:03 that later on can i um then just switch to a different topic which is other projects now uh can we look please first at ryd

00:49:14 now uh can we look please first at ryd three zeroes nine four two four four

00:49:24 this is the tender document submitted by ryden for the grenfell tower project dated february 2014 uh and can i start with page 36 first of all before we look at other projects

00:49:36 all before we look at other projects because i want to ask you one or two questions about mr o'connor's cv now we can see here that it's titled with his new role project manager can you see at the top right hand corner of the page underneath

00:49:48 right hand corner of the page underneath the black box yes yes and it sets out his responsibilities now in fact as we've seen from your 9th of may 2014 email he wasn't appointed to the role of

00:50:00 he wasn't appointed to the role of project manager until early may 2014. are you able to explain why this document says that he was a project manager

00:50:08 manager for this project or proposed project as at the 13th of february 2014. no

00:50:19 could did you compile this document um no who did uh that would be a business development team

00:50:30 team were you responsible overall for the accuracy of this document um i would i would take responsibility for it yes i would

00:50:41 would did you check it before it was submitted to the tmo um not in

00:50:48 um not in line for line detail right now you say it was put together by the business development team who did the business development team

00:51:00 who did the business development team consult if anybody when compiling this document

00:51:04 document um if they had questions um then they would either consult me or the team that were putting together

00:51:18 the team that were putting together the tender is quite a wide-ranging document

00:51:21 document do you know who compiled the cvs such as that for simon o'connor that we see on the page here um that would be one of the

00:51:32 um that would be one of the business uh development co-ordinators right do you know can you give us a name no i don't know who did that right do you know from your own knowledge whether they checked those cvs with each

00:51:44 whether they checked those cvs with each of the corresponding individuals in this case simon o'connor um yeah my um i think they would do yeah you think they would do did you know

00:51:55 you think they would do did you know well i don't i can't categorically say yes but my experience is that they would um

00:52:02 um generally ask for confirmation that the details are correct did you take any steps to ensure that that person in the project um the business development team had

00:52:13 um the business development team had done that done a proper job of making sure that the cvs were accurate um i didn't do anything myself my experience is that generally they are

00:52:26 my experience is that generally they are very accurate and they would check with either the person that they're writing about or a line manager as to the

00:52:38 or a line manager as to the um accuracy of it

00:52:41 now we've already seen that that mr o'connor was said to be project manager when he hadn't yet been appointed uh let's just look together a little bit more closely if we can please at this cv

00:52:53 more closely if we can please at this cv can you see that it says uh in the first paragraph

00:52:57 paragraph under role within the team that mr aircon

00:53:00 aircon would be coordinating design you see that in the second last sentence in the first paragraph under role within the team he's responsible for all

00:53:14 the team he's responsible for all operations on site including delivery program and budget coordinating design you see that uh sorry i'm off right um on the page you'll see there

00:53:27 right um on the page you'll see there are two columns and there's a big black box yes sorry second second entry down role within the team

00:53:32 team yep yes and it says simon is responsible for managing the smooth delivery of the project he is responsible for all operations on site including delivery to program and budget coordinating design

00:53:45 and budget coordinating design you see you see the words coordinating design yeah yes now mr o'connor told us in his evidence and it's day 26 page 20 lines 9-10 that's for our purposes

00:53:57 lines 9-10 that's for our purposes that that was inaccurate and that he would not be qualified to do so and would not know where to start coordinating design is he correct about that

00:54:06 that uh in terms of running the design development program with a consultant he is correct in saying that and he was never asked to do that

00:54:19 this for me is more of a reference of coordinating the the trades on site trades on site it's not the same as design is it no it's not no

00:54:32 design is it no it's not no now he he also told us that where it says qualifications hnc building studies he hadn't completed the hnc now he would know about that say

00:54:43 the hnc now he would know about that say you can we take it that he would be right about that

00:54:47 yes and then it goes on to say under benefits to the project fourth line down he confidently leads the on-site team in terms of design

00:54:58 on-site team in terms of design technical requirements so we've now flipped off the page can we go back please to where we were which is page 36.

00:55:11 thank you uh i'm so sorry we flipped to a different document for benefits to the project four lines down he confidently leads the on-site team in

00:55:22 he confidently leads the on-site team in terms of design technical requirements health and safety subcontractor management and customer care

00:55:28 care now where he where it says that he confidently leads the on-site team in terms of design mr o'connor also told us day 26 page 21 line 19 that that was not

00:55:39 day 26 page 21 line 19 that that was not accurate

00:55:40 accurate is he correct about that

00:55:45 yeah that wasn't um what he did at grenfell

00:55:50 grenfell and it also goes on to say in the next paragraph he is able to positively contribute technical expertise and facilitate informed choice for clients and residents during value engineering and decision making

00:56:02 engineering and decision making processes

00:56:04 processes and he he told us also day 26 page 22 lines one to four that he didn't think

00:56:13 think that he had ever been part of a value engineering process is he right about that

00:56:21 um possibly

00:56:28 simon is a is an experienced site site manager

00:56:32 manager um right

00:56:35 um right so yeah okay and then it goes on to say uh that he would be this is the last sentence of the next of that same paragraph this applies to

00:56:46 of that same paragraph this applies to projects at both pre-tender and pre-start stages and he said day 26 page 22 line 11 that he was very rarely involved pretender is he correct about that

00:57:00 yes can you explain mr blake how these inaccuracies came to be in mr o'connor's cv in the tender documentation for this project

00:57:12 project you're talking um specifically about uh a grenfell um you know if he says you know very rarely that

00:57:23 if he says you know very rarely that that

00:57:23 that suggests to me that he has been so on occasion

00:57:27 occasion um both pre-tender and pre-start so we did

00:57:35 a job which location i can't remember but um where simon was involved um in in the pretender and pre-start stages

00:57:47 in in the pretender and pre-start stages but

00:57:48 but not at grenfell forgive me mr blake it may be my fault but i've taken you now through i think six inaccuracies in the in the way in which mr o'connor's qualifications and experience

00:57:59 experience were portrayed in this document can you explain how all of these inaccuracies or any of them indeed came to be in mr o'connor's cv in this tender document

00:58:11 um specifically no do you accept that you are responsible for these missed statements about mr o'connor's experience and qualifications um the tender went out in my name so yes

00:58:22 um the tender went out in my name so yes i am

00:58:23 i am and do you accept that you intended the tmo to rely on them so that they would pick ryden as the winner of the tender uh that's part of their process

00:58:35 why didn't you appoint a project manager to this project who was qualified but the many things that you represent simon o'connor could do but which he told us he couldn't do or had no experience of

00:58:47 because the um requisite um competencies that he wasn't asked to do were covered by simon lawrence in his

00:58:58 were covered by simon lawrence in his role as contracts manager well that is true mr blake that makes mr mr o'connor's cv a thoroughly misleading document indeed but you accept that um

00:59:15 in in the way you've described it then i'm not going to i'm not going to say anything but i agree with that let's look at page 32 where we find a version of your cv

00:59:33 where we find a version of your cv now did you write this or was this again put together by the business development team

00:59:39 team it would be put together by the business development team we tender for a lot of contracts so that they

00:59:50 they're a slightly fluid document in as much as they need to be regularly updated to and it needs to give examples of relevant experience did you read and approve this cv before

01:00:02 did you read and approve this cv before it went

01:00:03 it went out in the tender pack i would imagine that i was shown it to approve it yeah now halfway down the right hand column under qualifications it records that you were a member of the

01:00:14 it records that you were a member of the chartered institute of building the mciob

01:00:18 mciob yeah as well as having obtained an hnc and building studies is that right that's correct that is correct what cpd continuing professional development or other training did you do since

01:00:28 since those qualifications to keep you abreast uh

01:00:31 uh or up to date with issues and continue to maintain the skills required to perform

01:00:36 perform the job set out here

01:00:41 in terms of cpd uh i i haven't done any now looking at the top left under profile it says that you've been involved with writing since 1985 or at

01:00:53 involved with writing since 1985 or at ryden

01:00:53 ryden since 1985. yeah and involved in a number of different projects with ryden prior to grenfell tower i just want to ask you what were some questions about two of those first chalcott's estate

01:01:04 first chalcott's estate now it's right isn't it i think that ryden and harley had worked together on projects at the chalcots estate in around 2006 to 2009. that's correct yes and you

01:01:15 to 2009. that's correct yes and you worked as contracts manager on the childcare state project what did your role on that project entail

01:01:23 entail as contracts manager

01:01:28 um as described in my personal statement the refurbishment of high-rise blocks and we're looking at the middle of the paragraph

01:01:39 the middle of the paragraph i think you want us to look at the middle paragraph you say the works comprises a full internal and external upgrade to the blocks including new kitchens and bathrooms central heating systems roof work and re-clatting

01:01:50 systems roof work and re-clatting yeah yes now uh that isn't quite an answer to my question my question is what did your role as

01:01:57 role as contracts manager entail on that project um sorry i was referring to my personal statement where i described

01:02:08 statement where i described the role of contracts management oh i see when you say personal statement you mean your

01:02:11 mean your your witness statement oh yeah sorry yeah right let me ask you let me ask a different way or a different question um there was cladding work as we can see from the cv um that was

01:02:23 as we can see from the cv um that was carried out by harley wasn't it yes as a subcontractor to ryden yes yes was that a design and build contract it wasn't design and build but it was they were responsible for design

01:02:34 they were responsible for design i see and the panels on that building were acm

01:02:38 were acm aluminium composite uh material panels manufactured by arconic or alcoa as i think they were that's correct yeah what role did you have as contracts manager

01:02:49 manager on that project in the selection of materials

01:02:52 materials specifically the acm panels can you remember

01:02:56 remember um i had no um part in the selection of those panels i see was a fire safety engineer used on that

01:03:07 was a fire safety engineer used on that project do you know um if it was it would have been the

01:03:15 employee of the architects do you know i don't know now you also talk about the ferry a

01:03:22 ferry a point canning town project and looking at your cv that's the paragraph above the second paragraph down under relevant project experience and on that project you were i think in your current role

01:03:33 you were i think in your current role namely refurbishment director or rather the role you had as at the date of the grenfell tower project yes yes and in that role were you responsible for overseeing the installation by harley of

01:03:45 installation by harley of acm rain screen cladding

01:03:50 i had a contracts manager reporting to me

01:03:54 me right so as we described earlier i see my question was actually directed at installation but but it could be a wider question uh were you responsible for overseeing

01:04:06 uh were you responsible for overseeing the selection as well as the installation of acm cladding on that on no on that project no do you remember how harley came to be involved in that project

01:04:17 project inferior point yes um they were given um the opportunity to um to be to quote for the job

01:04:29 right now see cep were also involved in that project weren't they yes so uh how did they come to be involved

01:04:38 involved um they're harley's uh preferred supply chain partner for the

01:04:45 the to be the um fabricator um of the cladding panels right were there fabricated cladding panels uh at ferrier point

01:04:57 at ferrier point um i think so yeah there would have been uh parts to uh cut and bend

01:05:10 we can see that in this tender pack which was obviously for a project with over cladding of a high-rise building you're making prominent here your experience as relevant ferrier point and child cuts

01:05:22 as relevant ferrier point and child cuts is it fair to say mr blake that your role at chalkits and ferrier points demonstrate that you yourself had personal considerable personal experience of overclouding projects before grenfell tower

01:05:34 projects before grenfell tower yes and in senior roles at that yes yes you mentioned two were there any other overclouding projects that you'd been involved in prior to grenfell tower in addition to ferrier point and

01:05:45 in addition to ferrier point and chalcotes

01:05:47 chalcotes um no there's not no oh there's a reference to ashmole there but that was um that was clad in uh installation and render

01:05:58 clad in uh installation and render yes now just looking at the right-hand column the role within the team can you see that just under the black box yes it says steve is responsible for hns strategic

01:06:11 steve is responsible for hns strategic partnering relationships with clients supply chain management training recruitment managing the refurbishment element of the group business do you agree with that summary yes so you were responsible for health and safety

01:06:23 safety that is yeah that's a yeah responsibility for me yeah what is what does or did supply chain management mean um

01:06:33 mean um well strategic partnering relationships with clients is is is what it says and then on the opposite side we will have informal supply chain

01:06:46 we will have informal supply chain management relationships with key subcontractors

01:06:53 yeah and then it goes on to say

01:06:59 uh it goes on to say uh in this in the last paragraph there or part of the last paragraph

01:07:05 paragraph to achieve a best value high quality service delivery you see that yes is it fair to say that achieving a best value delivery was ryden's priority

01:07:19 it's it's not necessarily a priority it's

01:07:23 it's part of

01:07:27 our obligations under under contract yes i see

01:07:32 i was just trying to get a feel for best value

01:07:35 value as opposed to high quality and which was your priority there the the same thing for me right

01:07:46 same thing for me right [Applause] i just want to ask you some questions mr chairman this will take no more than five minutes it may be it's just you carry on i will do thank you i just want to ask you some questions about your awareness at the time of

01:07:58 about your awareness at the time of different kinds of cladding and other cladding fires at the time of the grenfell tower project and i say that obviously it spanned four years but at the time of ryden's involvement were you aware of

01:08:11 ryden's involvement were you aware of the different kinds of cladding panels available

01:08:14 available in the united kingdom

01:08:18 in sorry what respect let me break it down for you were you aware at the time that for first the cladding panels were made with a variety of different

01:08:30 made with a variety of different materials including metals and metal composite elements

01:08:36 uh yes i was yeah you were and were you aware that panels made from aluminium

01:08:43 aluminium composite material or acm as we call it frequently contain contained a core made from polyethylene or pe yes i was and were you aware that pe was combustible

01:08:55 combustible um not no

01:08:59 um not no but obviously plastic is combustible so but i didn't think of it like that you didn't think of it like that all right now panels were you aware the

01:09:10 all right now panels were you aware the panels were also available so acm panels were also available with a fire retardant core which was less combustible than a standard

01:09:20 standard polyethylene core yeah i was not aware of that

01:09:24 of that not aware to your knowledge at the time was there any awareness within ryden generally about the combustibility of polyethylene as part of an acm panel or the

01:09:36 as part of an acm panel or the availability of different kinds of panels with fire resistant cores there was no knowledge of that no knowledge at all were you aware in general terms of the potential fire risks that

01:09:48 potential fire risks that aluminium rain screen claddings with the pe corps posed no were you aware of major fires which had occurred in residential buildings

01:09:59 residential buildings whether in the uk or overseas involving cladding

01:10:02 cladding for example the fire at nosley heights in 1991 not that one garnet court irvine 1999 no

01:10:13 garnet court irvine 1999 no what about lachenal house in southwark in 2009. i've been made aware of that one

01:10:18 one yeah you you you you had been made aware so you were aware it came up with dialogue um when we were at grenfell yes okay well

01:10:29 when we were at grenfell yes okay well we may come back to that and do course were you aware of a spate of fires in high-rise buildings in the uae in 2012 to 2013. no

01:10:43 this channel i think i'm not going to turn to a different topic which is quite a long topic and i won't finish before well i may finish before the break but i doubt i will um would it be more sensible to stop now

01:10:54 sensible to stop now um yes we could stop right um we're going to have a break now then

01:11:00 then mr blake um i have to ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with the refurbishment while you're out of the room and that will apply when we have later breaks in the proceedings all

01:11:12 later breaks in the proceedings all right so we'll stop now and we'll resume at uh can we say half past minute i i i'd rather say 25 past it it's not inconvenient for you or the

01:11:23 it's not inconvenient for you or the witness

01:11:24 witness right

01:11:28 and we'll take it on from there right thank you very much would you like to go with the

01:11:32 with the usher please

01:11:43 right 25 faster

01:25:24 yes would you ask mr blake to come back

01:25:38 please

01:25:47 all right mr blake are you ready to carry on

01:25:50 carry on i am ready thank you very much yes mr blake um i'd like just to look at the contract with you if i may can i ask you please to be shown tmo one double zero four one seven nine one

01:26:05 this is as you can see from this page the amended jct design and build contract by which ryden was appointed by the tmo as the main contractor on the grenfell tower

01:26:16 grenfell tower project and it's dated the 30th of october 2014 just looking at its first page there mr blake are you familiar with this document

01:26:26 document i am you are can i ask you can i ask you please to go to page 14.

01:26:33 now we can see there a signature as a witness

01:26:42 at the bottom of the screen there who executed this as a deed by rml ryden maintenance limited

01:26:52 are you asking me who the signature in blue is yes that's uh jeff henton that's jeff henton is it right now you've told us that part of your role as a refurbishment director

01:27:03 role as a refurbishment director was to liaise with your team of managers to ensure that the client's requirements were being met and report on that to ryden's management board

01:27:12 board is it fair for us to assume that in order to do that you were familiar with the terms of this contract yes did you ever study this contract in detail

01:27:25 uh this part of the contract no all of it um

01:27:29 it um not in my new detail no is it fair to assume that you expected all ryden's employees who were working on

01:27:38 on the grenfell tower project to be familiar at least in outline with the contents of this document

01:27:45 document yes and to abide by the obligations contained in it yes yes now you told us this morning uh at page 45 line one that part of

01:27:56 uh at page 45 line one that part of as you understood it part of ryden's obligation under its contract with its client was to achieve a best value high quality service delivery

01:28:07 high quality service delivery was that your understanding uh that this about what this contract reflected in general terms this in any contract right so is just to

01:28:18 this in any contract right so is just to be clear

01:28:18 be clear you're you're clear in your evidence that at the time you understood that ryden was contractually obliged to achieve a best value high quality service delivery

01:28:30 um yes yes i mean subject of course to the matters contained in detail in the in the small print if i can put it that way yes

01:28:39 way yes yes yes um can i ask you to look at page 15 please appendix one which is a set of amendments and insertions as you can see there

01:28:50 insertions as you can see there it's right isn't it i think we can see this that these were specifically negotiated with the tmo for this project

01:28:58 okay do you remember that um and we can look on a bit if you like if you flip the pages i don't necessarily remember it but i understand what it is right

01:29:07 right well let me ask a slightly different way who at ryden was con was responsible for considering and negotiating and agreeing the amendments and insertions to this contract that we

01:29:18 and insertions to this contract that we can see although we don't see it on that page

01:29:20 page um we would um have our in-house legal team um advise with respect to what we sign up

01:29:31 advise with respect to what we sign up to

01:29:32 to and who would give who at ryden would give instructions to the in-house legal team

01:29:37 team as to what they wanted and didn't want in the

01:29:40 in the formal contractual document which ryden eventually signed the the legal team would give us advice as to what is appropriate or

01:29:51 as to what is appropriate or or not indeed and who is the us in that answer uh that would be the

01:29:58 be the production team so call it me right so i see so can we be clear about this that you mr blake would be the the point of contact for the legal team

01:30:09 the point of contact for the legal team so that if you had a a question you would you would be the one to ask the legal team and if they had a question that you would be the one they would ask yes yes um is it fair to assume that

01:30:22 yes yes um is it fair to assume that you in your role understood that as design and build contractor ryden retained the ultimate responsibility for the design of the grenfell tower refurbishment and works

01:30:34 refurbishment and works yes and did you understand that ryden was responsible for carrying out and completing the works in a proper and workmanlike manner yes in accordance with statutory requirements

01:30:46 with statutory requirements yes and in accordance with good building practice

01:30:49 practice yes yes can i ask you to look at page 19 in this document and look at clause 2.1.5.1

01:31:01 halfway down the page you can see a long clause there which is part of what your well ryden is promising to the tmo and can you see that there's a new clause 2.1.5

01:31:16 clause 2.1.5 uh where um it says under 2.1.5.1 the contractor warrants that it has not used and shall not use and has exercised and shall continue to exercise

01:31:27 and shall continue to exercise the standard of skill and care required by clause 2.17.2.1 which we'll come to to ensure that it has not and shall not specify authorized cause or allow to be used in

01:31:38 authorized cause or allow to be used in the works any products or materials which

01:31:41 which and then if you look immediately below that under 2.1.5.1.1 say do not conform with british or european standards where appropriate or codes of practice or where no such

01:31:53 or codes of practice or where no such standards

01:31:54 standards standard exists do not conform with a british board of agreement certificate and then underneath that under 2.1.5.2

01:32:05 under 2.1.5.2 the contractor will immediately notify the employer if it becomes aware of any proposed or actual specification and or use in the works of any products and or materials which do not comply with clause 2.1.5.1

01:32:20 which do not comply with clause 2.1.5.1 now when you witnessed this contract i know you didn't execute it but when you witnessed it um did you look at that provision do you think

01:32:30 think um i i would doubt it but that's not um anything that i haven't seen before right so you would exp your understanding was that you expected this provision to be in there

01:32:42 provision to be in there it seems yeah perfectly reasonable and yeah normal yes normal provision right can i ask you to look at page 22 and look at clause

01:32:54 to look at page 22 and look at clause 2.17.1 then

01:32:58 um you can see there that it says that um

01:33:01 um under that the contractor shall to the extent set out in clause 2.17.2.1 below be fully responsible in all respects for the design of the works including uh and then you can see

01:33:13 including uh and then you can see and some inclusions uh and uh at 2.17.1.1 first of all design in the employer's requirements i'm summarizing it but you can see that

01:33:25 summarizing it but you can see that and at 2.17.1.2 uh not limited to the coordination and integration of all design and integration of all design and the

01:33:36 and integration of all design and the interface between design elements for the works

01:33:38 the works whether carried out by the contractor or by any other party engaged on the works and the contractor shall adopt and take responsibility for any design work in relation to the works

01:33:49 any design work in relation to the works which may be carried out or which may have been carried out by professional consultants or specialist subcontractors or by any other person at the request of the employer

01:34:00 at the request of the employer and then in just look at it with me 2.17.1.3

01:34:04 2.17.1.3 all aspects of design development selection of goods and materials and the satisfaction of performance specifications included or referred to in the employer's requirements the contractors proposals

01:34:15 contractors proposals this contract or any change now i've shown you that in full my question is again did you know that those obligations were in the contract

01:34:27 those obligations were in the contract when you witnessed it i i would understand that to be our obligations yes so did you therefore understand that whether or not ryden chose to subcontract those responsibilities to other parties was

01:34:38 responsibilities to other parties was entirely up to ryden and it made no difference to the fact that they were ultimately ryden's responsibilities to its client the tmo

01:34:49 yes i did i think grenfell was slightly unusual because we had two significant novations but apart from that

01:34:59 that i would understand that to be so right and the significant ovations were who the architect and the structural engineer yes can i ask you to look at page 16 and

01:35:10 can i ask you to look at page 16 and please at the bottom of the page there just going back a bit in the document under practical completion as a definition there it says practical completion takes place

01:35:21 it says practical completion takes place when the works as are defined are complete for all practical purposes pursuant to clause 2.27 and in particular the relevant statutory requirements have been complied with and any necessary

01:35:32 been complied with and any necessary consents or approvals obtained to your understanding at the time well first of all did you know that that provisional definition was in there

01:35:43 definition was in there um that's what i understood it to mean yeah yeah and and would um compliance with the relevant statutory requirements to your understanding did that include the building regulations yes yes

01:35:57 yes yes now i want to turn to a slightly different

01:36:00 different topic which is writing's role and expertise in his uh written evidence mr lawrence has told the inquiry that ryden's approach to a project like grenfell

01:36:12 approach to a project like grenfell and i can show you the the provision if you want but i'll just tell you what he says

01:36:17 says uh is it was to appoint a specialist third-party designer to undertake the design works and work package subcontractors to undertake the building aspects of a project then he says this

01:36:28 project then he says this ryden's role was to then manage and coordinate the work of those those third parties is that a fair description of writing's approach to the project

01:36:38 project um it's a fair description of the role of principal contractor in the in the industry right now let's look at your statement

01:36:49 ryd3094225 at page ten please if we can just look at the bottom of the page of paragraph six point one and six point two where you describe uh the role of principal contractor there and you say as principal

01:37:01 there and you say as principal contractor ryden's role was to manage the project and coordinate the various contractors to ensure as far so far as possible that the refurbishment was completed safely on time and to budget this is achieved by appointing and

01:37:12 this is achieved by appointing and coordinating contractors to implement the design work undertaken by them or by others as principal contractor ryden's role is not to undertake any design work or to carry out the construction work itself and then at 6.2

01:37:26 construction work itself and then at 6.2 you say

01:37:27 you say the designs were undertaken by studio e and curtins and those other contractors who had design responsibilities including j s wright and harley now just putting that to you i just want to

01:37:38 just putting that to you i just want to set that as besides what the ryden company witness statement says we can just look at that as well it's ryd30 is 94236

01:37:49 ryd30 is 94236 and i'd like to go to page 153 please and look at paragraph 390 390 and you say there or it says there as set out above rml would rely on

01:38:00 as set out above rml would rely on harley

01:38:01 harley and following the novation of its appointment to rml studio e to advise on the appropriate design for the facade including

01:38:07 including the cavity barriers i've shown you both of those

01:38:10 of those one from your statement and once that one's one quotation from the ryden company statement what was your understanding of the complexity of the task that's described there namely uh the

01:38:23 that's described there namely uh the design

01:38:24 design of the facade including for cavity

01:38:28 barriers um i i'm sorry i don't so i don't understand that question well let me let me put it a different way um the uh

01:38:42 coordination of design and the input into design on this project was a complex one do you accept that same as

01:38:54 do you accept that same as numerous contracts right is it fair to say that ryden didn't have a team in-house which was expert uh in matters of the appropriate design

01:39:05 uh in matters of the appropriate design for the facade they didn't have the uh design competence known and that's and didn't have the design competence on advising or coordinating the design of

01:39:16 advising or coordinating the design of for example cavity barriers the installation or design of cavity barriers not specifying it no or designing where they go or what they should be no no and indeed mr lawrence says in his

01:39:28 no no and indeed mr lawrence says in his written evidence and just for our for your purposes and our purposes is paragraph 40 in his statement on page 8 that ryden didn't have any in-house design expertise and did not directly

01:39:39 design expertise and did not directly employ uh construction operatives is that right that's correct yes so ryden had no design team of its own in-house at all i think that's what

01:39:51 in-house at all i think that's what you're telling us no no i go back to the the first point is a principal contractor that is how they the majority would operate

01:40:02 how they the majority would operate within the industry yes uh well that that's you say that um let's just see if i can get your evidence

01:40:10 evidence at the time just to be perhaps labor the point a little bit just just help just agree or disagree is it right that ryden in general had no expert in-house

01:40:21 in general had no expert in-house expertise in the design or construction of rain screen cladding facades in terms of the design we weren't the designers with

01:40:32 designers with plenty of experience of the construction uh on the previous contracts that we've worked on

01:40:40 you say you had experience of construction but the construction itself would be done by construction subcontractors would you not as

01:40:48 not as with us as principal contractor yeah indeed

01:40:51 indeed uh

01:40:55 ryden also i think had no in-house expertise in the selection or specification of materials to be used in the construction of rain screen facades

01:41:05 facades no we didn't or no expertise in house in the fire safety of such facades no and no in-house expertise in whether or not such facades did or didn't comply

01:41:17 or not such facades did or didn't comply with the building regulations no we didn't and it would follow from that although we'll come to it in a moment therefore no in-house expertise on whether or not a rain screen facade complied with approved document b

01:41:28 complied with approved document b forming part of the building regulations that be correct do you accept that ryden required advice accurate advice and input to be given by its

01:41:40 and input to be given by its subcontractors on all the issues we've just discussed together and to be proactive about that because ryden's lack of expertise on those matters meant that it couldn't spot potential non-compliances

01:41:54 couldn't spot potential non-compliances yeah i mean that's that's why we employed

01:41:58 employed the people to advise us what procedures did ryden have in place to ensure that each of the subcontractors um appointed in areas where ryden had no

01:42:09 appointed in areas where ryden had no in-house

01:42:10 in-house expertise was suitably qualified to fill the gaps

01:42:14 the gaps in ryden's expertise

01:42:18 um well if you take the example of of grenfell and cladding and harley's that will be obviously we've got the in-house

01:42:29 in-house um governance procedure of the the firm as a as a constitution and we've got knowledge and experience of the work they've carried out

01:42:41 of the work they've carried out in the past did those systems you've just described contain any uh feature or or or process for making sure that

01:42:53 or or process for making sure that the particular people within the subcontractor for example harley in this case

01:42:59 case were qualified to make assessments of as to whether design and selection of material did comply with statutory requirements including building regulations

01:43:12 building regulations um i didn't check that i didn't but i know that the cvs of the individuals from harley's

01:43:23 cvs of the individuals from harley's were part of the tender submission so i had no reason to think

01:43:28 think that they weren't um inappropriate to do that my question was a slightly different one which was whether ryden systems you've described contained any

01:43:41 systems you've described contained any process

01:43:42 process for making sure that the particular people at for example harley could tell whether a piece of piece of material or a design was compliant with statutory requirements it's really about ryden's process

01:43:54 ryden's process um no i

01:43:57 um no i can't say that did ryden take any steps as a company or group to ensure that its own employees on this project understood the regulatory requirements

01:44:08 understood the regulatory requirements with which ryden was obliged under the contract

01:44:11 contract that we've seen to ensure compliance

01:44:19 in terms of specifics to um to grenfell no but there was um a suite of of training modules um that would be

01:44:32 modules um that would be put to the the management within the um within the business um

01:44:41 so yeah a suite of training modules that would be put to the management within the business uh let me just explore that okay this is at the time of the grenfell

01:44:53 this is at the time of the grenfell tower project so from 2013 to 16 uh to whom in the business would those training modules uh be delivered across the group

01:45:04 uh be delivered across the group say um would you like some examples well let me just pursue it my way um did any of those modules include how to go about supervising an

01:45:16 include how to go about supervising an architect

01:45:18 architect no did any of those modules go train anybody on how to go about supervising a specialist subcontractor not not no did any of those modules

01:45:30 not not no did any of those modules and give anybody any training on how to coordinate the design process not specific to that no did any of those training modules include anything at all about fire

01:45:41 include anything at all about fire safety

01:45:42 safety in the context of a refurbish in the context of high-rise residential buildings no did any of those training modules include anything at all

01:45:52 at all about the combustibility of any materials in any project nope did any of those training modules include anything about fire safety in relation to high-rise

01:46:05 fire safety in relation to high-rise buildings in particular no did any of those training modules include any education at all about the history of high-rise fires in the uk or overseas

01:46:16 high-rise fires in the uk or overseas no right

01:46:21 now you say in your statement that ryden's role was not to undertake any design work or to carry out the construction work itself so in general does that tell us that the

01:46:33 so in general does that tell us that the service that ryden was going to provide to its client was a was really a pure management service

01:46:42 as you've said yes yes

01:46:57 but we've seen from the contract that ryden and i think you've accepted the ryden was entirely responsible to the tma

01:47:05 tma for carrying out and completing the design and the construction in accordance with the contractual obligations we've seen not simply managing it and coordinating it do you accept that

01:47:16 it do you accept that i have done yes yes yeah and that ryden had taken responsibility itself on its own shoulders to its client for the design work carried out by consultants or subcontractors in terms of the contractual chain that's

01:47:29 in terms of the contractual chain that's where we are yes but we would manage that by flowing those responsibilities to those who are

01:47:39 who are able to provide that advice yes but was your understanding nonetheless that ryden remained obliged to ensure that the project complied with the building regulations

01:47:50 regulations whether or not it's sub-contract i i am yes yes

01:47:53 yes yes and and the products and materials selected on the project complied with the relevant british and european standards yeah

01:48:07 and in simple terms mr blake was it your understanding that you could comply with your contractual obligations simply by offloading them onto other people

01:48:17 um i think offloading is not correct against we we placed that responsibility and employed

01:48:28 placed that responsibility and employed people

01:48:29 people um to provide that advice we're not offloading suggests that we take not you know relieving ourselves of responsibility that's not how we

01:48:42 that's not how we do it so your understanding just to be clear was that you couldn't comply with your contractual contractual obligations merely by appointing other people to do the things that you promised the tmo you

01:48:53 the things that you promised the tmo you would do

01:48:56 would do i'm sorry i didn't hear the first part of this so is it right that your understanding at the time was that you couldn't comply with your obligations or you weren't complying with your contractual obligations

01:49:07 with your contractual obligations simply because you had appointed subcontractors to do the things that you had promised the tmo you would do

01:49:15 do that's how we fulfilled that obligation by employing people to carry out those items on behalf of the contract yes but you still was at your understanding that you still mean you

01:49:26 understanding that you still mean you still retained contractual responsibility yes yes yes

01:49:38 and now mr lawrence told us that he didn't recall there being a design responsibility matrix for this project

01:49:49 this project or a design responsibility document that was

01:49:52 was for our purposes day 22 page 106 at line 18.

01:49:56 18. is he or was he correct about that um i'm not entirely sure what a design responsibility matrix is i

01:50:07 responsibility matrix is i i know what it's it's saying um my uh recollect is that there was a very clear um

01:50:18 is that there was a very clear um set down of of the design responsibility from the

01:50:22 from the pre-start uh minutes and the meetings that had taken place to do that

01:50:30 that i also saw that um the relationship between the architects and harleys was was very clear

01:50:41 was was very clear between itself so for me they were it was clearly

01:50:50 identified now did you ever consider at the time what expertise ryden needed to make sure

01:51:01 to make sure that the requirements of the building regulations were met by its subcontractors um my

01:51:10 um my my uh understanding and expectation is that that is the role of the

01:51:17 of the architects to fulfill i think you've agreed with me before that ryden didn't instruct a specialist fire consultant for the grenfell tower project

01:51:26 project that's right is it that's correct um so

01:51:33 um so you is this right that you were looking to when you say the architect you mean studio e

01:51:39 studio e yes to advise you as to whether or not a design or

01:51:42 design or pro or product or material uh complied with the requirements of the building regulations yes that is how you saw it yeah um that would be part of the design exchange between studio e and

01:51:56 design exchange between studio e and if we're talking about cladding uh harley's would it be fair to say in light of that answer that neither you nor anybody else at ryden investigated or checked the compliance of any

01:52:07 of any material or product used on the project that's correct uh and indeed any dis and indeed the design

01:52:14 design of any aspect of certainly the cladding on the project correct

01:52:21 does it follow from that that ryden not only would not but actually couldn't itself know whether it was properly performing its own obligations to the tmo to select compliant materials

01:52:35 um well we relied on others so you'd be correct in saying that yes so you

01:52:43 you they they might select something but you wouldn't have any means yourself of knowing whether it was right or wrong or compliant or not compliant not not from ryden's point of view no so

01:52:56 no so does it come to this that you you trusted your subcontractors to get it right without any means of knowing yourself whether they had or not um we employed them on the basis that

01:53:07 um we employed them on the basis that that was their obligation to

01:53:11 provide that information and advice

01:53:15 forgive me for laboring the point but let me just pursue this a little bit further

01:53:19 further it is written evidence mr lawrence says that his role on the project and and this is paragraph 45 of his statement

01:53:27 statement included ensuring that the designs comply with clients requirements and my question is how could any contract manager on this project ensure that a design met the client requirements if ryden

01:53:39 met the client requirements if ryden didn't have an in-house client team on a house design team

01:53:46 i would say that's

01:53:50 it's still ultimately our ryden's responsibility to do that so that's what i imagine he's referring to

01:54:00 to yes it's it's still ultimately ryden's responsibility but ryden i think what you're saying is that ryan didn't actually have the equipment the the expertise

01:54:11 have the equipment the the expertise to discharge that responsibility itself as a

01:54:18 as a company no but as from an employee yes

01:54:26 when you say as from an employee you do well with the with the people that we'd employ to um provide that on behalf of the project i see not employees but subcontractors yes

01:54:38 see not employees but subcontractors yes i see can i then ask you to look at a document which is the nbs specification so it's a change of topic to some extent at least were you

01:54:49 to some extent at least were you familiar in general terms when you came into the project mr blake of the nbs specification i was do you remember whether you read it

01:55:00 it uh not to cover to cover no now you as we've seen signed ryden's tender well we haven't seen it actually um do you recall signing ryden's tender

01:55:11 um do you recall signing ryden's tender on the 13th of february 2014.

01:55:17 oh sorry yes i do yes we can look at it if you like but yeah we saw it earlier we did do you recall that the tender was based on the employers requirements which included studio e's nbs

01:55:28 which included studio e's nbs specification yes uh and although that specification went through a number of drafts i think the most recent date on it was the 30th of january 2014.

01:55:39 date on it was the 30th of january 2014. should we let's look at that it's sea 50169 please now here here is the first page and there's the date i mentioned

01:55:51 there's the date i mentioned uh again just for your purposes this is the last draft that we we can see of a version of this document that had been through some previous amendments in

01:56:02 been through some previous amendments in the november of 19 2013. did you read this document when uh considering and compiling the tender

01:56:13 tender no you didn't did you ever read this document

01:56:18 document um when i assumed the role of uh contracts management um yeah there would be occasion for me to uh read it i see so did that tell us

01:56:30 uh read it i see so did that tell us that between winning or between bidding uh for this project

01:56:35 project in uh early 2014 and your assumption of the role of contracts manager on this project in october 2015 you didn't read the nbs

01:56:48 in october 2015 you didn't read the nbs specification no and i wouldn't expect to either my role okay and when you did after 2000 october 2015 when you assumed the role of contracts manager

01:56:59 the role of contracts manager did you read it all through then or or any other um i doubt it what did you what occasioned you to look at it at that stage

01:57:10 that stage i i can't specifically recall what i have looked at well let's see how we go um can i ask you please to turn first to page 68 and i'd like to look with you please at

01:57:21 and i'd like to look with you please at paragraph 220 specification and it says there com and this is i should just be clear under the part of the mbs specification h92 rain screen cladding

01:57:34 h92 rain screen cladding just in general terms mr blake are you familiar with the layout and general format of this document yes as a not particularly this one for this project but in general nbs

01:57:45 this project but in general nbs specifications in general yes yeah are you familiar with the way they're compiled yes yes um so it's a 220 specification it says compliance standards the center for

01:57:56 says compliance standards the center for window and cladding technology cwct quote standard for systemized building envelope unquote envelopes unquote reference information for the duration of the contract keep

01:58:07 for the duration of the contract keep available at the design office workshop and on-site copies of the center for window and cladding technology cwct standard for systemized building envelopes publications invoked by the cwct

01:58:18 publications invoked by the cwct standard for systemized building envelopes did you read that paragraph uh at any time during your involvement on this project no no no

01:58:31 were you aware as mr lawrence have told us that

01:58:35 us that despite the nbs saying what it says here there was no copy of the cwct standard for systemized building envelopes

01:58:46 envelopes present either at the design office the workshop or on site

01:58:52 um there wasn't one on site and had we had a need to refer to it then

01:59:03 had a need to refer to it then i would probably in the simplicity ask harley's to provide us with either a copy or an extract or we could purchased one ourselves but

01:59:16 or we could purchased one ourselves but yeah there wasn't one on that side were you aware in general terms of the cwct yes you were were you familiar uh with the standard for systemized building envelopes

01:59:28 for systemized building envelopes um not specifically but i i knew about the

01:59:32 the uh cwct you knew about what was your understanding of what the cwct did um that they were a um an industry uh body

01:59:45 an industry uh body um that

01:59:49 um that stood behind um like say well systemized building envelopes so they were a federation if you like yes i see were you aware that the cwct had produced

02:00:00 that the cwct had produced a a a standard called standard for systemized building envelopes um no

02:00:09 um no not i'm not at the time no no at the time

02:00:12 time were you familiar with the standard

02:00:16 not the standard but i knew that this body existed right

02:00:24 let me just show it to you um and then if you haven't seen it before hadn't at the time then we can move on cwct please cwct6046

02:00:38 and this is the first page of it and you can see that it has a number of parts including part six fire performance is this a document that you had seen at the time no is it a document you've seen since no

02:00:54 no is it a document you've seen since no right can i then ask you uh some questions about building regulations of associated guidance

02:01:02 guidance as the most senior individual on this project

02:01:05 project on a day-to-day basis at least did you give any consideration at the time yourself to the regulatory requirements which applied to it

02:01:16 when i was director or contract manager when you either um when i'm a director that that's um obviously i'm

02:01:27 director that that's um obviously i'm very interested that the necessary um compliancism approvals are being sought and work through and

02:01:39 work through and when i was performing the contracts managers role that was my my role to make sure that they were being obtained from the respective um authorities

02:01:54 respective um authorities at the time ryden uh won the contract for the grandfather project in march 2014

02:02:00 2014 were you familiar with schedule one to the building regulations um i didn't have a specific um that i could

02:02:12 um that i could quote verbatim from the building rigs but i certainly had an understanding of the

02:02:16 the structure and the purpose of them right so you were familiar with you or you had an understanding of the functional requirements did you

02:02:28 the functional requirements did you yes um yeah yes i am yeah were you familiar with part b fire safety contained within schedule one i knew that that was a part of the building rigs yes right were

02:02:39 part of the building rigs yes right were you familiar with the different elements of part b part b one to five um i couldn't quote what one to five were but i was i'm aware that there were subsections

02:02:51 i'm aware that there were subsections within a

02:02:52 within a topic were you aware that one of the subsections it happens to be b part b4 related to external flame spread

02:03:03 related to external flame spread um

02:03:07 i would like to say yes but i can't categorically say that right i know about it now clearly but i can't say that i did at the time well let me let me try it in general

02:03:18 well let me let me try it in general terms

02:03:19 terms were you familiar with a requirement in the building regulations that an external wall shall adequately resist the spread of fire over the walls and from one building to another

02:03:30 from one building to another yeah i understood that principle yeah you understood the principle and and uh were you familiar with such a principle relating to the roof of the building adequately resisting the spread of fire

02:03:41 resisting the spread of fire um in the same way yes were you familiar or were you aware that in order to determine whether

02:03:53 that in order to determine whether an external cladding system complied with the obligation

02:04:00 to adequately adequately to resist the spread of fire over the walls required a designer to consider the fire performance of each of the components of the system

02:04:13 um i would take that as um yeah that would be my understanding here it would and would that understanding extend

02:04:24 and would that understanding extend to understanding that the designer would have to think about the particular type of cladding panels and insulation specified for the system i would

02:04:35 specified for the system i would take that yeah right were you all so familiar

02:04:38 familiar that another part of the the requirements this is b3 uh required the designer to ensure that the subdivision of the

02:04:49 to ensure that the subdivision of the building with fire resistant construction

02:04:54 was done where that was reasonably necessary to inhibit the spread of fire within the building yes and also that the building should be designed and constructed so that the unseen

02:05:05 unseen spread of fire and smoke within concealed spaces and structures uh sorry structures and fabric is inhibited

02:05:12 inhibited yes you'd understand that yes right

02:05:16 was your understanding that you just described to us one which was widespread within ryden do you think um

02:05:30 i'd like to say yes okay you'd like to in the role of a contracts manager um i have an experience of uh constructing

02:05:41 i have an experience of uh constructing different buildings and yes yes now the familiarity with the functional requirements that you've

02:05:49 you've explained to us was that something that you had learnt formally or something that you'd learnt in another way um

02:06:06 well we've received training on a cdm for example and we do um there's a at the time there was a series of

02:06:18 at the time there was a series of modules of uh safety training one one to five in in those modules it would refer to the obligation to comply with statute

02:06:31 the obligation to comply with statute and regulation

02:06:34 but to answer your question um not not specifically you say we've received training on cdm cdm stands for what uh construction

02:06:45 cdm stands for what uh construction design management yup regulations and that you say you received training on that

02:06:51 on that and there was a series of modules of safety training yeah was there it sounds as if what you're telling us is that your knowledge or familiarity with the functional requirements came from that training

02:07:02 requirements came from that training is that right part of it does right again it goes knowledge and experience of building many buildings

02:07:11 buildings can you remember um how the training that you've described was delivered within ryden um it's

02:07:23 um it's it sometimes relates to events so there was a change in the cdm legislation around the time 2015 so we had a training

02:07:35 2015 so we had a training to give us a refresher an update as to what the changes meant um to how we sat uh against those regulations so

02:07:45 so that was a an example of uh a reason and a a and a recognition of an event if you like who delivered

02:07:56 of an event if you like who delivered that training um i i can't recall usually it would be maybe an outside an external consultant would come in and

02:08:09 an external consultant would come in and and give a training right to an audience of those identified that would um benefit from it and who were those identified who would benefit who received this training

02:08:20 received this training well it would be those in a management role within the maintenance business or and construction business so we know you so you did who else did can you tell us

02:08:32 so you did who else did can you tell us uh i don't know uh i can't give you a listen name are there lists available of who's to receive this training yeah right uh and was this training delivered in 2013

02:08:44 and was this training delivered in 2013 14 it was

02:08:49 15 when i think the uh that that particular training was delivered so that is it was this training delivered in contemplation of the new cdm regulations coming in

02:09:01 the new cdm regulations coming in in 2015. that's that's given an example of why

02:09:05 of why um training would be provided i see was there any training that you've described which would have educated people like simon lawrence or simon

02:09:16 people like simon lawrence or simon o'connor for example in writing on uh the building regulations and specifically the functional requirements that we've been discussing we it's not my experience that there was a

02:09:27 it's not my experience that there was a training course specific to that right turning to approve document b at the time ryden won the grenfell tower project were you put you personally at all familiar with approved

02:09:38 personally at all familiar with approved document b forming part of the building regulations i knew that was part of it did you know what its purpose was um like say verbatim no no but did you know

02:09:50 like say verbatim no no but did you know it did you know what its purpose was um what was it for

02:09:56 to ensure compliance against the regulations that it identifies i see before uh grenfell uh before the grenfell tower project came along for you had you

02:10:07 project came along for you had you personally ever read that guidance um approved document b i i don't know i don't think i have no were you familiar with it at the start of your

02:10:18 familiar with it at the start of your job as refurbishment director um

02:10:24 what hasn't having read it yes no were you ever familiar with with its contents whether at the time you were a refurbishment director with responsibility for

02:10:35 director with responsibility for grenfell or as contract manager on grenfell say i can't

02:10:40 can't you know i couldn't quote it specifically or verbatim but i knew that it existed right let's see how far we go um can i ask you to look

02:10:52 uh at um clg 50224 please

02:11:02 um now that's page one and and there it is and it's got a big green b on it so it's not easy to miss does this look familiar to you yes

02:11:15 does this look familiar to you yes would it of law did it look familiar to you at the time 2013 14 15. it would have done yes i see did you know at the time that it was

02:11:25 was issued under the building act 1984 to provide

02:11:28 provide practical guidance with respect to the requirements of the building of the building regulations uh i didn't know that specifically but i'm i'm familiar with this

02:11:39 i'm familiar with this layout all right can we look at page 95 please

02:11:45 now here we can see

02:11:50 12.5 on the right hand side under the heading external wall construction

02:11:59 and let's look at that together it says under the first paragraph or in the first paragraph under that heading the external envelope of a building should not provide a medium for fire spread if it is likely to be a risk to

02:12:11 if it is likely to be a risk to healthful safety the use of combustible materials

02:12:15 materials in the cladding system and extensive cavities may present such a risk in tall buildings

02:12:23 and then it goes on in the next paragraph external walls should either meet the guidance given in paragraphs 12.6 to 12.9 or meet the performance criteria given in the bre report

02:12:35 in the bre report for performance of external thermal insulation for walls of multi-storey buildings bre-135 for cladding systems using full-scale test data from bs 8414 2002 or 2005.

02:12:49 2002 or 2005. now were you familiar even if not verbatim but in principle with what is said there

02:12:59 um i'm familiar with the obviously the first

02:13:03 first um paragraph um and then it goes down into detail of

02:13:12 how how it should meet the guidance

02:13:17 i would go back to that is that is why we

02:13:22 we employ experts to provide that guidance for us right now your cv and i don't want to get back to it but it said that you were

02:13:33 to it but it said that you were responsible for health and safety uh and that safety was one of the things that you were in your role responsible for overseeing were you aware of the risk to health and safety

02:13:45 safety presented by the use of combustible materials in cladding systems and cavities

02:13:53 um no you weren't no we can see from paragraph 12.5 subpar 2 or the second paragraph in it

02:14:06 2 or the second paragraph in it external walls do you see that yes um that there are two routes offered here for compliance the first is the guidance in paragraphs 12.6 to 12.9 and the second

02:14:18 12.6 to 12.9 and the second is meeting the performance criteria in br 135 using full-scale test data in bs 8414 were you at the time aware of those two routes

02:14:30 at the time aware of those two routes to compliance no

02:14:38 to your recollection even if you weren't aware of

02:14:41 aware of aware of the roots did was there any ever any discussion that you can recall about which route to compliance was proposed for the system to be used at grenfell tower

02:14:53 there was no discussions can i ask you to turn the page and look at 12.7 please it says in a building with a story 18 meters or

02:15:05 in a building with a story 18 meters or more above ground level any insulation product filler material not including gasket sealants and similar

02:15:11 similar etc used in the external wall construction should be of limited combustibility c appendix a this restriction does not apply to masonry cavity wall construction which complies with diagram 34 and section 9.

02:15:25 complies with diagram 34 and section 9. now just focusing on the words limited combustibility there mr blake at the time of the grenfell tower project but any time during your involvement in it did you have an understanding of what

02:15:36 did you have an understanding of what the words limited combustibility meant

02:15:41 um

02:15:44 yeah um again i would like to say yes i was

02:15:48 was i understood that um

02:15:53 if i go back to the first paragraph that it says that it that it shouldn't catch fire then it would be of limited combustibility so

02:16:04 it would be of limited combustibility so i would put the two together

02:16:11 right

02:16:17 did you know the difference or understand the difference at the time between

02:16:21 between something that was non-combustible something that was combustible and something that was of limited combustibility

02:16:30 um knew that there was definitions um but i didn't

02:16:35 didn't um i didn't know you know what about the boundaries were between them right and you could see there's a reference to appendix a were you familiar with appendix a have

02:16:47 were you familiar with appendix a have you ever had a chance to read it um i have subsequently but i didn't at the time know right did you have any working knowledge about br135

02:16:58 working knowledge about br135 and full-scale testing in bsa414 tests um that what that wasn't um i can't say that i had that as a consideration at the time of grenfell

02:17:10 consideration at the time of grenfell did you have any understanding of what those things were um again i didn't consider them at the time

02:17:19 time i i know what they are now

02:17:23 can i ask you to look at a guidance note which is part of the industry guidance in general terms before i show it to you were you aware that organizations within the construction industry produced guidance

02:17:35 construction industry produced guidance documents

02:17:36 documents to enable compliance with the prevailing regulatory requirements yes i did yeah are you familiar with a body called the building control alliance um no

02:17:50 control alliance um no so does it follow from that that you weren't aware at the time that the building control alliance produced guidance documents for the construction industry

02:17:58 industry yeah i hadn't heard of them haven't heard of them actually

02:18:02 so

02:18:06 might you have heard or did you hear of something called tgn 18 technical guidance note 18 which which was produced by the building control alliance

02:18:17 no okay but i wouldn't expect um as a principal contractor to um to be canvassed by that that

02:18:28 to um to be canvassed by that that material

02:18:29 material i would expect that to be at the forefront

02:18:33 forefront of information provided to um ri ba

02:18:40 um ri ba um organizations we discussed earlier cwct and you you said you knew about the body

02:18:51 and you you said you knew about the body yes

02:18:52 yes um we discussed a little bit about the standard

02:18:55 standard were you aware at the time that something existed called cwct's technical note 73 from march 2011. no wasn't no it has the title fire performance of

02:19:07 it has the title fire performance of curtain walls and rain screens does that trigger a memory no no

02:19:14 [Applause]

02:19:19 was there any system or process in place at ryden

02:19:22 at ryden at the time 2013 to 16 for ensuring that ryden's senior employees were familiar with specialist bodies such as the cwct and the building control alliance and

02:19:35 and the building control alliance and their

02:19:35 their product their guidance notes so that industry guidance and expertise could inform ryden's work

02:19:46 no no i wouldn't expect them to either why is that the the range of construction uh materials and specialists is enormous

02:19:57 uh materials and specialists is enormous um so i don't think that that's would be realistic for a principal contractor to

02:20:10 digest that amount of information that that again points to the the requirement to appoint experts to

02:20:24 experts to do this on behalf of the project

02:20:28 and inform their design development um to take cognizance of that

02:20:41 so does it help me if i went into ryden's

02:20:47 ryden's operation operating headquarters in march 2014 and wanted to look at a guidance document would would there be one on site

02:20:56 site because i wanted to look at technical guidance uh note 18 produced by the building control alliance would it be there or um or would i wouldn't necessarily be on site but it would be

02:21:08 site but it would be electronically available right should you want to refer to it and was there a system within ryden for disseminating guidance documents such as those i've i've mentioned technical guidance note

02:21:20 i've mentioned technical guidance note 18 or

02:21:21 18 or technical note 73 so that senior project professionals would be familiar with them no and for the reasons that i just gave

02:21:35 i'd like to turn to a different topic and that's your relationship with peter madison

02:21:41 madison now in your witness statement which is ryd-3094225 you say on page three we look at it a

02:21:52 you say on page three we look at it a page at paragraph 2.5.1 business development and you say leading a business dream as director with responsibility for the strategic direction of the

02:22:03 for the strategic direction of the business

02:22:04 business reviewing existing business plans and developing plans for the future on an annual basis this is part of your job

02:22:11 job and then you go on to say in the last three lines there as refurbishment director i am an ambassador for ryden a key aspect of this is creating

02:22:22 a key aspect of this is creating relationships with prospective clients and maintaining relationships with current ones was it common at the time that you won the project in the spring

02:22:34 that you won the project in the spring of 2014

02:22:36 of 2014 for personal relationships to underpin the projects that ryden worked on

02:22:45 um

02:22:48 i think as i put in my statement there um to as a director of a a business stream um

02:22:59 a business stream um i am an ambassador for um for the culture and for the business and creating the relationships with with

02:23:10 and creating the relationships with with the clients um so

02:23:13 um so [Music]

02:23:15 [Music] yeah that's um part of my role yeah were there any individuals involved in the grenfell tower for

02:23:26 involved in the grenfell tower for refurbishment but in any aspect of it uh with whom you had a

02:23:32 had a relationship before ryden won the project um there's uh uh two people um i

02:23:46 two people um i peter i think many years ago worked for hyde um that peter madison peter mason yes

02:23:54 yes worked for hyde yes um i didn't actually he

02:23:58 he i didn't do a project with him as a as a client

02:24:03 client contracts manager but i knew he was part of the

02:24:07 of the hyde organisation and sasha jevons also worked for hyde um in the past so i was aware of those

02:24:19 in the past so i was aware of those um individuals did you know either of them personally before march 2014 i've met them yeah right yeah in what context have you met them um

02:24:33 in what context have you met them um there was uh an annual housing forum that is held in brighton where and we

02:24:45 we do an invite for our clients and anyone interested to come along so that was an occasion where i would

02:24:56 so that was an occasion where i would have been

02:24:56 have been i would have met them and introduced being introduced to them

02:25:02 yes before that

02:25:08 but let me just put a can you put a date on that

02:25:11 on that um it was an annual event so i would have

02:25:15 have seen them quite a few times i see uh when was the first time doing the best you can with your your memory that you met

02:25:26 memory that you met uh peter madison and sasha evans

02:25:31 um

02:25:34 probably um around the millennium but something like that 2 000 yeah i see and and did you meet them regularly

02:25:45 and and did you meet them regularly either of them between 2000 and 2013 no no what was the occasion on which you met them

02:25:54 met them well the one that comes to mind is is uh the housing form where the industry gathers basically right any other occasions you can recall um

02:26:05 um they there was another um set of um housing conferences um in manchester um where there'd be invites and

02:26:19 um where there'd be invites and you attend the same forums uh and and functions right had you had any um dealings with him in the sense of

02:26:30 dealings with him in the sense of working for him or alongside him on any project

02:26:32 project no let's see was he a personal friend peter madison um i wouldn't say so no

02:26:42 um

02:26:45 can i ask you to go to art 406206 please

02:26:54 this is an email from simon cash of artelia

02:26:58 artelia to neil reed and it's from october 2015

02:27:11 we believe it's sometimes difficult to work out whether u.s numbering or or uk numbering is used but it doesn't matter for this purpose and it says for your info i had a good meeting with peter madison this

02:27:22 meeting with peter madison this afternoon

02:27:23 afternoon and we went through the various concerns regarding quality program costs etc he is conscious that his relationship with steve goes back a long way and steve talks to

02:27:34 goes back a long way and steve talks to him direct however peter does not want that relationship to circumvent artelia and bypass the role that we are playing in trying to get the project finished to the required quality and within budget

02:27:45 the required quality and within budget peter fully appreciates what we're doing and is very supportive of our approach

02:27:50 but that email is something we may need to come back later on i just want to focus on

02:27:56 focus on where mr cash says that he's con that you are conscious according to him that his relationship with steve goes back a long way and steve talks to him direct is that a fair description of your

02:28:07 is that a fair description of your relationship with mr madison at that stage

02:28:09 stage late 2015 that it went back a long way yeah i think that's fair enough yeah i mean

02:28:19 ryden's had a and still do have a long association of work with with the hyde organisation and at a point in time in the past

02:28:33 and at a point in time in the past um peter worked for hyde can you just explain a little bit about what hyde at the time did um they're an aha housing association so they're a

02:28:45 aha housing association so they're a provider of

02:28:50 social housing and we undertook some significant projects with them in terms of estate regeneration um across uh

02:29:02 um across uh a number of london boroughs

02:29:06 yeah hey it says that uh you speak to him direct st steve talks to him direct is that right did you speak to peter madison

02:29:17 right did you speak to peter madison direct

02:29:19 direct um on would say very very rare would i do that um and i i entirely agree with the

02:29:31 um and i i entirely agree with the sentiment of the of the email we um absolutely careful um that the project is is administered

02:29:44 that the project is is administered um by artelio when you spoke to peter madison direct did you make any record any written record of those conversations no

02:29:55 conversations no do you know of yourself whether mr madison did no do you know when that direct dialogue between the two of you began on this project

02:30:07 um it probably um when i took the role of contracts manager right um what about

02:30:18 contracts manager right um what about that

02:30:18 that i would have informed peter that um it was going you know it was going to be me

02:30:26 be me that took over the role of contract manager um and that would be um

02:30:36 a polite conversation to peter um to give him confidence of

02:30:48 you know our approach to the to the completion of the project right which goes back to the first sentence now you took the role of

02:30:59 sentence now you took the role of contracts manager on in october 2015 when

02:31:03 when simon lawrence left yeah um were you not were you speaking with peter madison direct at any time pretender no

02:31:17 pretender no can i ask you to look at a document

02:31:22 ryd3086648 please

02:31:27 now this is an email dated the 6th of march 2013. sorry 14 to tim shuttler copy to jeff henton

02:31:39 shuttler copy to jeff henton now just look at the date it's important 6th of march 14 subject read grenfell tower tender clarifications action required now just before i go on to the text of it um who was tim shutler

02:31:51 it um who was tim shutler he's a legal representative right now it says tim uh at the housing conference we had meetings with senior representatives

02:32:02 meetings with senior representatives from k and c and my opinion is that in the event that we were the successful contractor they would have no issue signing up to a form of documentation as we suggest we are at compromise with the employer's

02:32:14 we are at compromise with the employer's agent because we requested this amendment subsequent to our tender submission we have been informally advised that we are in pole position ours to lose you see that

02:32:26 ours to lose you see that now i'm going to come back to that topic a little bit later i just want to focus here on the occasion because you refer there to a housing conference was the housing conference that you're

02:32:38 was the housing conference that you're describing to mr shuttler there the chartered institute of housing conference that took place between the fourth and the sixth of march 2014 uh must have been yes now we've obtained

02:32:50 uh must have been yes now we've obtained the list of attendees i say we've obtained it we've been prompted to look at it

02:32:59 and it's available in the public domain

02:33:04 can we please have it available it's um available on the internet https and i'm not going to read

02:33:15 internet https and i'm not going to read out the full title of it but if we could just have that up on the screen please

02:33:22 now this is uh the attendee list of the annual chartered institute of housing southeast regional conference and exhibition

02:33:33 and exhibition 4th to 6th of march 2014 is this the conference that you're that mr

02:33:40 mr that you are referring to in your email to mr shuttler of the 6th of march yes right now we've got the list of attendees can i ask you please to go to page nine where you can see

02:33:53 to go to page nine where you can see on that page

02:33:56 uh the kctmo attendees on the left hand side under k can you see yes

02:34:07 under k can you see yes kensington and chelsea tmo limited sasha jevons executive director of operations robert black chief executive and we can also see uh one can note in

02:34:19 and we can also see uh one can note in passing

02:34:20 passing um a huge cast from kingspan including at the bottom of the page mark swift the cool thumb project manager but then i want to look at page 13 with you

02:34:31 you uh you can see that on that page we have uh ryden construction uh limited mark michener and then ryden group

02:34:42 group steve blake that's you tim edwards jeff henton

02:34:45 henton tim tim rigby peter robertson jonathan roland and andrew sharp so quite a few of you there

02:34:57 so when you are telling mr shuttler that you had

02:35:01 you had meetings with senior representatives from knc

02:35:04 from knc was that sasha jevons and robert black who were the kctmo attendees um yeah not not um

02:35:17 um yeah not not um not not robert black not robert black who were the senior representatives from k and c

02:35:24 k and c then you're telling mr shuttler you met at this conference um it would either be peter or

02:35:35 either be peter or sasha right so although peter madison does not appear to be

02:35:41 to be a kctmo attendee at this conference you say he was there was he he may have that there was a lot of peripheral um events that was in the brighton

02:35:52 um events that was in the brighton conference center but there was a lot of

02:35:58 invites to from various different organizations to functions that were held either either side of the

02:36:09 held either either side of the um conference now that takes me to the next point you you tell mr shutter in the first line of the email that we had meetings in the plural with these pre-arranged

02:36:23 in the plural with these pre-arranged meetings

02:36:24 meetings so lunch dinner coffee tea um i don't think so it's generally informal

02:36:35 it's generally informal did you i i'm not um i'm not aware of making a a meeting with those guys right did you sit down for any uh any meal or

02:36:48 for any uh any meal or any tea or coffee or something like that yeah we may have done right and i can't remember right and do you remember who paid for the meals or the teas and coffees or

02:37:01 for the meals or the teas and coffees or drinks

02:37:02 drinks um i can't but i wouldn't it wouldn't be unusual if we did

02:37:15 it says the email says that we've been informally advised that we are in pole position ours to lose who told you that um i can't recall was it at that housing

02:37:28 i can't recall was it at that housing conference that you were told that uh it must have been so would it be right there for that by a process of elimination it could only be sasha jevons or peter madison who did tell you that

02:37:39 who did tell you that um that must be the case but i cannot recall

02:37:55 now this was the day before the tender interviews that you were due to attend on the 7th of march

02:38:06 attend on the 7th of march do you remember that i didn't attend the interviews no just in terms of timing can you confirm that this conference and this email

02:38:17 took place dated the day before the tender conference the tender interviews okay who did attend the tender interviews

02:38:28 interviews um i think it was alan sharrocks simon lawrence and nikki donnelly

02:38:41 do you recall whether in your discussions when you were informally advised that you were in pole position asked to lose anything was said about the tma's proposed value engineering

02:38:54 um uh no well i don't recall so right was there any discussion in more general terms about savings or the budget no

02:39:13 i'm going to turn back a year in time to the spring of 2013 and i want to ask you some questions next about ryden's early involvement in the

02:39:24 about ryden's early involvement in the grenfell tower project can i ask you please first to go to ryd401097

02:39:33 ryd401097 this is an email from robert powell uh to you mr blake on the fifth of april 2013 mr powell was at apple

02:39:45 of april 2013 mr powell was at apple yards as they were then called they then later became called artelia as i think you know

02:39:49 you know steve good talking with you now perhaps you would have a look at the attached supporting information for the proposed redevelopment of grenfell tower rbk and

02:40:00 redevelopment of grenfell tower rbk and c

02:40:01 c if you would be prepared to venture a check price against this it would help us recognizing that we need to agree a usable framework straight means of procurement with rbk and c

02:40:12 uh speak next week is what he says at the end and you can see that he's forwarding things to you including some attachments and you can see there that the attachments comprise a set of plans and a schedule

02:40:25 comprise a set of plans and a schedule of works

02:40:26 of works and a stage d report outline specification you see that yes yeah uh just focusing on

02:40:37 uh just focusing on uh the next paragraph we'll come back to the attachments in a moment it says as mentioned

02:40:42 mentioned we are talking to more than one contractor in consideration of such an appointment and our client is looking to utilize their existing frameworks to procure same do you know why mr powell had contacted

02:40:53 do you know why mr powell had contacted you

02:40:55 um i didn't no i mean for that purpose it refers to a conversation steve good talking with you just now

02:41:06 just now did uh rob powell ring you or did you ring him do you remember he rang me he rang you

02:41:11 rang you said was that a cold call how did that conversation come about um i don't know right were you exp do you remember whether you were expecting a call from him

02:41:23 him i wasn't expecting a call from him now right had you had any prior contact with mr powell on grenfell tower prior to receiving this prior to that telephone conversation yeah i i would have assumed that he

02:41:34 yeah i i would have assumed that he perhaps looked at the previous jobs we've done or right you say you assumed that can you remember anything about the telephone conversation

02:41:45 telephone conversation and only him describing um [Music]

02:41:48 [Music] whether or not we were able to give him a check price right now i we looked a moment to go at the attachments did you read the supporting information mr powell had sent you

02:41:59 mr powell had sent you um i would have opened it up to have a look at it yeah right would you have opened up do you remember the grenfell stage d report

02:42:10 report outline specification that's referred to there um

02:42:14 there um probably

02:42:18 do you remember whether you responded to mr powell

02:42:22 mr powell um i i don't think i did because um

02:42:30 i think that um

02:42:33 what he was asking for was um

02:42:38 basically doing his job for him um to

02:42:44 establish a budget and i think the level of complexity or the amount of different things going on in the job made it quite um

02:43:00 a difficult thing to do as a check price it needed to be undertaken as a as a very considered cost exercise so we didn't um

02:43:13 so we didn't um put in a check price for it well we'll come to that um but i think the answer is my question is no um

02:43:19 um can i ask you to look at next please at

02:43:24 ryd40115

02:43:29 that's an email showing you forwarding mr powell's email to jeff henton ryden's managing director along with the attachments and it's

02:43:42 along with the attachments and it's dated the same day 5th of april 2013 and you say jeff this is the peter madison scheme which is right up our street

02:43:52 street they are asking for a framework that we are the

02:43:55 are the we are one to procure to avoid ojeu andy any thoughts could be a challenge but a start now there's nothing in

02:44:07 now there's nothing in the email you forward

02:44:10 that you'd received from mr powell which would indicate that mr powell was seeking to avoid the oj eu procedure and we can see that that's the case

02:44:21 the case where had the information come from that that when you say they are asking for a framework that we are one to procure

02:44:31 procure to avoid ojeu

02:44:37 i thought that was referenced on the previous email

02:44:45 the reference in the email below and we can see it actually in the third i can't see it on this line is there's no you're right there's no reference to ojeu what there is

02:44:54 there is in the third paragraph is in the second part of the sentence recognizing that we need to agree usable framework straight means of procurement with rbkc that's the only reference or

02:45:07 with rbkc that's the only reference or potential reference to procurement that we have there and my question i'll ask it again given what is said and is not said in that email where did you get the idea

02:45:19 as you're telling mr henton uh that they are asking for a framework that we are one to procure to avoid ojeu if you tender through a framework

02:45:31 ojeu if you tender through a framework you don't need to um go for an odu process where did you get the idea that the id that the intention was to avoid eu as a goal

02:45:45 by him saying that we need to agree a usable framework i see now you refer doesn't make any difference to us i'm so sorry i'm not sure i understand this reference to an existing framework

02:45:57 this reference to an existing framework could you just explain if various organizations have frameworks that um that you apply to be part of um and as such um then

02:46:10 um and as such um then you can procure work through that framework through the agreed sort of supply list um that um a client doesn't have to go through an og process

02:46:21 through an og process which is basically an open notice um it's a european uh regulation all right thank you did you get the idea

02:46:33 all right thank you did you get the idea from

02:46:33 from mr powell that he or at least his client wanted to avoid an aj eu process

02:46:42 um by reference to a framework that that seemed to be their preferred route from a contractor's point of view it makes no difference to us at all now

02:46:53 it makes no difference to us at all now you refer to the peter madison scheme this is the peter madison scheme which is right up our street had you already been told about this

02:47:04 had you already been told about this project by peter madison

02:47:08 uh or or jeff moebing i don't know what did you mean by the peter madison scheme

02:47:15 scheme um that it was uh a scheme that um a client was um had on their books to

02:47:28 was um had on their books to do in the future well the the peter madison scheme to the the uninitiated this email suggests uh that you

02:47:39 suggests uh that you knew that peter madison was behind the project

02:47:43 project and jeff henton also knew that is that right yeah and that'll be part of um

02:47:51 of um of the role of saying to people what work do you have coming up in the future um so that we can alert our business development um

02:48:04 alert our business development um team because ogs are what they are they have to be advertised so if we can put the up-and-coming schemes together

02:48:17 up-and-coming schemes together with notices then that means that we don't miss the opportunity as and when they arise how did you know at this stage and it's april 13 that mr

02:48:29 this stage and it's april 13 that mr madison was involved

02:48:33 um um either peter would have told me or or jeff told me either peter would have told me is that

02:48:44 either peter would have told me is that peter madison yes right so do you remember having a discussion or conversation with peter madison even at this stage april 13 about this project i don't remember and it could be

02:48:56 i don't remember and it could be any any number of schemes with any number of

02:49:00 number of of clients my role to say um what have you got coming up in the future

02:49:09 you told us earlier this morning and just for our reference it's page 98 line 10 that you had had no contact with peter madison before the tender you're now i think telling us that peter

02:49:21 you're now i think telling us that peter madison might have been the one to discuss this project with you at this stage which is a year or so or nine months before the tender

02:49:29 tender yeah can we be clear about your evidence mr blake

02:49:32 mr blake yeah i'm i was in answering your question it was i was referring to the you know the the tender we may have had an exchange

02:49:44 the tender we may have had an exchange about

02:49:46 other bits of work but if it was specific to the tender we didn't have any um dialogue about that right well just just to be clear and i would see that as

02:49:58 and i would see that as uh as both people being totally appropriate um as well did you have any discussions with peter madison

02:50:09 with peter madison before or in early april 2013 about the grenfell tower regeneration project

02:50:15 project um i may have done and it would have been only to be informed

02:50:23 informed that they're planning to do some upgrading

02:50:28 upgrading works to that particular project and as such that would be of interest to me because i'd be interested in doing the work

02:50:36 the work so then like say i'd alert the team to the fact that there is a prospective tender opportunity coming out in the future

02:50:47 future yes my question is directed to peter madison

02:50:51 madison himself rather than the tmo pro as client in general i'll just have one more go

02:50:57 more go did you have any discussions with peter madison himself about this regeneration product project in or before early april 2013 mr blake

02:51:10 in or before early april 2013 mr blake i don't recall specifically

02:51:15 and if i had it would have been just for him to inform me that there's a tender opportunity in the future did mr madison

02:51:27 in the future did mr madison tell you at this time that he wanted ryden to take on the role as contractor for these works no he didn't

02:51:38 for these works no he didn't what was the nature of what he told you can you remember as i say purely informative right can you explain why you've not mentioned

02:51:49 can you explain why you've not mentioned this

02:51:50 this early contact with mr madison in your in your witness statement uh i didn't see any meeting can we look at the statement it's paragraph

02:52:02 paragraph 4.1 on page six ryd3094225 page six please paragraph 4.1 uh you say that i first became aware of the grenfell tower project in

02:52:14 aware of the grenfell tower project in april 2013 when robert powell of apple yards part of artelia asked if ryden would prepare a check price for the project having looked at the email about the peter madison scheme we've been talking

02:52:25 peter madison scheme we've been talking about do you accept that that's not entirely accurate

02:52:29 well i think in the context of that statement it's saying that that's aware of it as a as a reality um someone's rung us up and said

02:52:40 someone's rung us up and said would we give them a price so um that seems reasonable to say that

02:52:50 did you regard your role at the time as simply performing a market check

02:52:55 in other words just providing a market price as a benchmark against that

02:53:02 so i don't understand what you mean well you say in your statement uh that you you were asked to provide a check price for the project yeah does that mean bid for it or that does that just mean providing individuals that's

02:53:13 individuals that's budget information i see now let's look at

02:53:17 at uh one of the attachments to mr powell's email

02:53:21 email which you told us i think you opened

02:53:25 ryd401103

02:53:30 and it's page six i'd like to look at with you please and the items listed in the middle uh in the middle column under existing residential flats can you see that there level uh one to

02:53:43 can you see that there level uh one to twenty

02:53:43 twenty yes external envelope

02:53:48 and i should just say this is the outline specification and it says there uh if you look down uh the third entry down

02:53:59 if you look down uh the third entry down is p10 sundry insulation stroke proofing work

02:54:02 work existing columns over cladding celetex fr5000

02:54:07 fr5000 you see that yes and then underneath that

02:54:10 that h92 rain screen clouding existing columns overclouding vmz composite zinc panels and then on the or in the right hand

02:54:21 and then on the or in the right hand column

02:54:21 column h72

02:54:26 i think you have to go you i think have to go

02:54:29 to go yeah you've got it up a bit um age 72 aluminium strip sheet coverings flashings you see that existing columns over cladding

02:54:40 existing columns over cladding c drawing and then ppc aluminium flashings

02:54:43 flashings and then h92 rain screen cladding external wall 12 millimeter millimeters hpl cladding trespa or similar and subframe

02:54:53 subframe system secret fix

02:54:58 is it clear or was it clear to you at the time that this project involved the overcladding of an existing high-rise residential building yes it was yeah and we know

02:55:10 yes it was yeah and we know as you've told us that ryden had experience of that kind of project chalcotes and ferrier point is that why you said in your email to jeff hunter that the project was quotes right up our street quotes

02:55:21 right up our street quotes yes definitely yes can we just go back to that email again uh ryd40115

02:55:32 you say just before signing off could be a challenge but a start what did you mean there by could be a challenge

02:55:41 challenge what was the challenge about this project um

02:55:45 if they choose a framework that that we're not part of um then we don't get to tender it

02:55:54 so that's the end of that i so this is nothing to do just to be clear nothing to do with the the building the fact that it was an occupied refurbishment that wasn't a reference to the building

02:56:06 reference to the building can i ask you to look at ryd401154

02:56:14 this is an email of the 5th of april 2015. so same day from vicki croft who's a senior bid manager at ryden

02:56:25 who's a senior bid manager at ryden project profiles as requested only frameworks that we're on sec hca and city west

02:56:33 and we'll come we'll come back to that it looks as if you're asking for project profiles and you can see from the attachments that she attaches ashmole ferrier point and the chalcotes and

02:56:43 and george's estate did you ask for those

02:56:49 yes yes why why was that um i wanted to see what frameworks we were on i see why they're quite a fluid um again point in time they expire um

02:57:01 again point in time they expire um they're not being used um we are in the middle of applying for them um so yeah i was just seeing as a business

02:57:13 so yeah i was just seeing as a business where we're at did you ask for those project profiles because certainly ferrier point and the child cuts were high rises yes can i ask you to go to ryd40 is one

02:57:28 yes can i ask you to go to ryd40 is one two zero

02:57:28 two zero three now these are emails in early april 2013 so about this time there's a string of them and i'd like to go to page four and three if we can have those up

02:57:38 those up up together please pages four and three because we're going lay down in the email string uh and if you go to page four you can see

02:57:49 page four you can see we've seen the email from robert powell

02:57:53 and in fact we now see you coming back to him i think i'm answering a question i asked you earlier as promised this is bottom of page three

02:58:04 as promised this is bottom of page three i have attached some case studies of previous tower blocks projects we've carried out i've asked andy scharf our business development director to make contact with you regarding

02:58:12 regarding procurement opportunities in addition i've copied in alan sharrick's whose contract's manager knows a lot more about tower blocks than i do and i'm managing surveyor zach maynard who will be able to provide budget advice you see that um yep

02:58:26 budget advice you see that um yep there's no request from mr powell for case studies that we saw in his first email so can i ask this question when did you promise to provide case studies to him

02:58:40 um if it was part of that um original um

02:58:49 telephone exchange now in the email on page three ninth of april you say in the second line and i've read it to you

02:58:56 it to you um that you asked andy sharp to make contact regarding procurement opportunities what did you mean by procurement opportunities

02:59:06 um how they how the client intended to procure the the contract and what did you envisage that mr sharrex and mr maynard

02:59:19 mr sharrex and mr maynard would provide by way of advice

02:59:24 um if they were able to provide uh budget advice i um

02:59:36 got them involved with doing that on behalf of us chairman i'm in the middle of this email string it's probably better if i can finish it off but it won't take more

02:59:47 finish it off but it won't take more than a couple of minutes yes all right we'll carry on i may thank you and now can you look at the to page two and three

02:59:54 and three uh and look at the top of page three he says there uh

03:00:01 and and this is robert powell back to you

03:00:05 you steve many thanks i'm having a grenfell tower day tomorrow with our team in london is there any chance we might get some cost feedback against the schedule and drawings i sent you to discuss at our meeting perhaps let me know when we could expect

03:00:16 perhaps let me know when we could expect same if tomorrow is too big and ask

03:00:20 and then if you look at the bottom of page 2 your response says it is too soon for tomorrow but would be happy to meet to understand scope of works and budget and then at the top of page two mr

03:00:31 and then at the top of page two mr powell responds uh and this is also the ninth of april uh

03:00:36 uh steve to be honest until i sat down with my team tomorrow i'm in the dark as much as you

03:00:41 as you happy to have a phone conversation with whoever needs to know from your perspective and i hope we can get some quick and dirty costings on the info i have sent you

03:00:52 i have sent you uh what did you understand he meant by quick and dirty costings um well very high level um [Music]

03:01:03 [Music] uh costing so um without much uh deep you know detail or interrogation so um

03:01:15 um and if we weren't able to do that so and i wasn't prepared to do that i see okay if we look at the bottom of page one

03:01:24 of this email chain uh you can see that you put him in touch with alan sharrick's and zach maynard and you say we will help as much as we can see that

03:01:36 we will help as much as we can see that yeah what help did you anticipate ryden would provide

03:01:47 he he was asking for some like say this this quick and dirty costings that um in my mind were uh meaningless

03:01:59 in my mind were uh meaningless um but i didn't want to uh you know upset him with such a negative um

03:02:07 um response so he i offered uh the help of alan and zach should he wish to talk to them about uh part of the

03:02:18 talk to them about uh part of the project

03:02:19 project because that that part of it is

03:02:26 to provide a budget price on behalf of the client is is his role um and we weren't able to provide that service for him right

03:02:38 service for him right why was ryden prepared to help just to maintain a relationship because obviously we um it's it's a job that we were interested in doing

03:02:49 interested in doing thank you mr chairman i i feel myself slightly stranded in the middle of an email chain which will probably take longer than another couple of minutes at least would it be wiser to call it i think

03:03:01 would it be wiser to call it i think it's we might as well if that's all right right but i will come back to this email chain after the break all right thank you um well mr blake we're gonna have a break now so we can all get some lunch

03:03:12 now so we can all get some lunch please remember not to talk about your evidence or anything else to do with the refurbishment while you're out of the room and we'll resume at five past two please okay i'd like to give the usher please thank you

03:03:34 thank you five house two

03:04:06 you