Rydon Evidence - Tuesday 28th July 2020 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:15 right would you ask mr blake to come back please

00:00:42 um right mr blake ready to carry on yes thank you yes mr mr chairman mr blake um can i pick up something we discussed

00:00:53 um can i pick up something we discussed this morning which was simon o'connor's cv and the inaccuracies in it which we discussed together and i just want to see how that fed through to the scoring process if you can go please to tmo

00:01:06 please to tmo one double zero four zero nine zero four

00:01:16 and look at the native version of that

00:01:24 document sorry 40907 my fault i'm sorry and look at the native version of that

00:01:38 document uh i just want to look at the ride and tab at the bottom you just click on that and then look at um

00:01:47 um the scoring here first of all are you familiar with this document no no you're not all right well let's see how we go if you look at this page um and look at um uh look at

00:02:00 um and look at um uh look at page one under the writing tab under paragraph 1.2 it says there please provide summary one-page cvs for all proposed key personnel within contractor

00:02:11 personnel within contractor and any known supply chain teams including design covering all project stages

00:02:15 stages note one your response must include the cv of the person who will be responsible for the day-to-day management of the project health and safety and the person responsible for the coordination of the design

00:02:26 coordination of the design a sample template for an appropriate cv is attached to appendix a my question is did you know that the cvs and particularly the cv

00:02:38 that the cvs and particularly the cv of the person responsible for the coordination of the design who was put forward as simon o'connor was part of the scoring process in the tender

00:02:47 tender no you didn't did anybody tell you what the

00:02:51 the um scoring process would be no all right we can look at the rest of it but did you know that under this element of the scoring

00:03:04 that under this element of the scoring uh the cvs obtained the highest art score and cw score compare eight and six respectively compared with mulally and durkheim the

00:03:16 compared with mulally and durkheim the other two bidders left in the race at this stage did you know that

00:03:21 know that no i've never seen this okay

00:03:25 um just going back to the conference the brighton conference uh that we looked at earlier this morning can you confirm who else from ryden attended

00:03:37 ryden attended uh those meetings at the brighton conference

00:03:42 um from from ryden i don't definitively know but i would imagine it would be um jeff henton

00:03:55 and probably um

00:04:02 you also said this morning i think it's page 87 at line five that you would sometimes invite others to these conferences do you remember whether you invited the tmo to this conference in that year 2014 no i don't

00:04:20 you've described to us your relationship with peter madison uh at the time can you tell us what was your relationship with sasha jevons at the time that you were tendering for

00:04:31 at the time that you were tendering for the grenfell tower project

00:04:35 um similar to

00:04:41 peter medicine that i i knew them um as as the roles they had in the within the industry right is there any reason why

00:04:52 reason why in your witness statement you haven't um told us about the fact that you had had these contacts with peter madison and sasha evans at that stage because it didn't have

00:05:03 at that stage because it didn't have um any influence in the um in the tender process now if we can turn to

00:05:14 now if we can turn to um an email chain where we which is sort of where we were before lunch this is ryd401193

00:05:23 ryd401193 and look at the bottom of page one please

00:05:30 uh we can see that email again but this time with ryden's internal discussion immediately above it and we can see that you ask alan sharok's and zach maynard this is wednesday 10th

00:05:43 and zach maynard this is wednesday 10th of april

00:05:44 of april 2013 al zak something dodgy going on here with incumbent contractor if i either get chance could you make contact thanks what did you mean by something dodgy going on on here by incumbent contractor

00:05:59 um i think that's a reference to the fact that um the the adjacent scheme the the calc scheme

00:06:07 scheme um whoever was doing it were

00:06:14 must have thought that they were lined up to do the um grenfell contract what do you mean by dodgy

00:06:22 dodgy well it seems like if they're going out to the market to get check prices um then they weren't in alignment with the incumbent

00:06:33 weren't in alignment with the incumbent contractor on the adjacent side do you know whether zach maynard or indeed anybody else that ryden contacted contacted them and gave them any cost

00:06:44 contacted them and gave them any cost pricing information to assist them in their exploration i don't think that they did

00:06:53 if we look at the top email

00:06:58 uh from alan sharrick's to you anzac maynard of the 10th of april it says um zach it's if it's financial infer they're looking forward it's better you call them mate maybe some typical m squared meter

00:07:10 maybe some typical m squared meter squared cost for brain screen and double glazing will suffice i've looked at the scheme funding and it's a 9.4 million pound pot for the whole grenfell tower regen 6 million from council and 3.4 million

00:07:22 million from council and 3.4 million from tmo

00:07:23 from tmo reading what's on the internet it's a political nightmare there's a website dedicated to complaining about phase one and the scheme in general looks like they've been forced into doing something with the tower

00:07:35 doing something with the tower now was it your impression at the time that the tmo was forced to use mr sharok's word to refurbish grenfell tower against the tmo's wishes i didn't consider that

00:07:47 the tmo's wishes i didn't consider that you didn't consider it did does that mean you didn't think about it or you didn't

00:07:51 didn't you didn't think that that was what was happening

00:07:54 happening um i i didn't you know i didn't think about it

00:07:58 about it right what did you understand mr sharok's to meme when he said that uh they have been looks like they have been

00:08:08 have been forced into doing something with the tower um

00:08:13 tower um well he's found out some information and and and put it back um to me as uh as feedback about the project do you know where mr sharok's got his

00:08:24 know where mr sharok's got his impression from presumably from the website he's referring to right did anybody at the tma ever tell you that they the tmo had been

00:08:35 you that they the tmo had been forced into doing something with the tower

00:08:38 tower no

00:08:43 do you remember responding to this email from mr sharok's

00:08:49 um no

00:08:53 did you pass on to mr powell of apple yards the information from vicky croft about the frameworks um i don't know in general terms can you

00:09:07 i don't know in general terms can you remember what happened after this flurry of uh exchanges in the april of 2013

00:09:17 2013 in the story i think it went quiet whilst the client made up their mind about what how they were going to procure the project did you maintain contact with the tmo or

00:09:30 did you maintain contact with the tmo or apple yards through that period um no i don't think so can we look at ryd401226 please and a page one of that is a long email

00:09:48 from uh jonathan roland to you

00:09:53 copy to others at ryden attachments uh refurb royal borough of kensington and chelsea tmo and the date is the 23rd of august 2013

00:10:04 is the 23rd of august 2013 and it's sending you the request for a pre-qualification questionnaire that had been issued by the tmo for the grenfell tower project and the first paragraph says hi steve

00:10:15 and the first paragraph says hi steve details

00:10:16 details stroke pracy follow for your consideration however given our current workload especially for refurb and location please choose carefully whether you wish to pursue

00:10:25 to pursue this would be the seventh pqq that we have awaiting outcome within a six-week period

00:10:29 period and if we do it and are successful we may have to turn some tenders away let's discuss jay and then underneath that there's some detail

00:10:40 which tells you towards the bottom of the page the pqq return date was the 20th of september 2013 at 1 o'clock did you discuss this email

00:10:48 email with mr roland as he'd asked

00:10:52 um yeah i'd thought so yes you thought so do you remember that discussion i don't

00:10:57 don't distinctly remember it but

00:11:01 it's notifying me um that um a pqq needs to be filled in for us to be considered for

00:11:12 filled in for us to be considered for the tender indeed it looks from this email that ryden had a lot of work on at this time was that right we had a lot of work that we were

00:11:21 we were uh tendering for yeah yeah

00:11:25 and uh what was aaron alan sharrick's involvement at that time

00:11:33 in this project yes um i i very little i'd have thought he yeah do you know why he wasn't put onto

00:11:44 yeah do you know why he wasn't put onto the project we we haven't seen it but but we do know that his cv was in this the pack of cv's forming part of the tender package do you know why alan sharrex wasn't on this project on grenfell yes

00:11:58 on this project on grenfell yes um because he was uh carrying out another project right

00:12:07 i mean alan shadrach on the face of it was it was an extremely experienced uh ryden executive is there a reason why he wasn't selected to perform any role on the grenfell tower

00:12:19 perform any role on the grenfell tower project

00:12:21 project um he did the initial interview but he was working on another opportunity you had a lot of pqqs at the time as you

00:12:32 you had a lot of pqqs at the time as you can see to what extent did ryden have sufficient resources to service the work that it had at this time this is um this is august 13. yeah and this is

00:12:44 um this is august 13. yeah and this is um generated by the business development department um to feed the aspirations of each business in in the group

00:12:57 each business in in the group um there's obviously a finite resource to administer the pqqs which you you have a success rate

00:13:08 which you you have a success rate with um to give you the ability to be awarded the chance of a tender i think jonathan roland was in the

00:13:19 i think jonathan roland was in the business development group he was the um uh director looking after it yeah i thought

00:13:28 how did ryden decide which projects it would

00:13:32 would bid for in which it would turn down um

00:13:38 through there's a computer system that um

00:13:42 um filters the um og process um which is the european um fair competition and then the filters put on

00:13:52 put on would identify the types of work um against the business stream um and then they would um

00:14:03 they would um have a a ranking as as to the desirability um and appropriateness of the scheme into the work stream um and then

00:14:16 into the work stream um and then the the resource available um would be put on um answering those or applying for the pq against that uh

00:14:27 or applying for the pq against that uh project

00:14:28 project following up on that what were these filters put on to the grenfell tower project when the pq

00:14:35 pq came in for that yeah they're very simple if

00:14:38 simple if if odu described um let's say occupied refurb as part of the advert then that it would pick up on that and then

00:14:49 that and then bring it to the attention of of the uh of that department what what ranking did the desirability and appropriateness of the grenfell scheme have into the work stream

00:14:59 stream when the uh it was uh assessed and under this system um well it fell into a

00:15:09 a category that we um had previous experience of so it was something that

00:15:20 we felt we could be competitive with what ranking did the desirability and appropriateness of the grenfell scheme achieve where did it come in your ranking system high low it'd be a high rank scheme

00:15:33 high low it'd be a high rank scheme right excuse me let me ask you to turn to ryd40128 please

00:15:45 this is an email from mark harris of harley

00:15:49 harley to mr roland you and vicky croft and ray bailey as a copy 24th of august 2013.

00:15:57 2013. hi jonathan are you guys tracking a project called grenfell tower we've been tracking this one for quite a while the application was withdrawn but some updated elevations have appeared on the planning portal and the ojeu has been advertised

00:16:09 been advertised this one has quotes are quotes name written all over it it's typical of the type of work we were jointly involved with that both chalcotes and ferrier i've attached a copy of the o2 plus a

00:16:20 i've attached a copy of the o2 plus a copy of the latest abi report typical elevation and an image of the existing tower facade look forward to hearing from you was it common for harley to contact ryden or indeed vice versa about prospective project at such an

00:16:32 about prospective project at such an early stage

00:16:35 that's common across the industry of a supply chain partner um you know put putting putting people together so is the answer

00:16:46 putting people together so is the answer yes it was common for harley to contact ryden

00:16:48 ryden yes did how did harley know who to contact at ryden with this information um well they know me obviously because i've how do they know all your email addresses

00:17:00 addresses um because i've worked with them before i see

00:17:07 when mr harris said this one has our quotes name written all over it it's typical of the type of work we were jointly involved with at both childcare and ferry what did you understand mr harris to be indicating by that

00:17:18 harris to be indicating by that um that it's an opportunity that um we can be competitive with and um put together a good bid i see so the r

00:17:30 put together a good bid i see so the r is a what does he mean it's like a joint venture approach ryden and harley um

00:17:39 i would i would describe them as a as a supply chain partner of of ryden yeah so yeah that's how i'd see that

00:17:51 so yeah that's how i'd see that i see so if you tended successfully successfully for the job they would hope that you would pick them as subcontractors for the specialist cladding subcontract yeah and

00:18:04 specialist cladding subcontract yeah and they

00:18:04 they they'd have to bid for it competitively as as we do indeed

00:18:12 look at ryd401240

00:18:18 email

00:18:23 by way of response 27th of august 2013 from you morning mark we are aware of this and have been tracking very keen to pursue we have a business meeting with kmc

00:18:35 business meeting with kmc coming up soon uh what did tracking entail

00:18:48 well um but that we know that that's a a job in the future that may come out to tender

00:18:56 tender how did he do it how did you track

00:19:01 through market intelligence through

00:19:05 relationships which relationships well it's referring to the um business meeting with kensington and

00:19:16 business meeting with kensington and chelsea yes i was so did you know or rather was your tracking

00:19:22 tracking did that involve using or continuing on relationships of individuals within kensington and chelsea

00:19:34 part of it is maintaining a relationship yeah i think so uh yes well i asked you about that a moment ago what contacts did you have between the april of 2013

00:19:46 did you have between the april of 2013 and

00:19:47 and august 2013 under which you were tracking the progress of the grenfell tower project mr blake

00:20:00 i'm sorry i didn't get the first part of that question i'll ask it again sorry what contact did you have between the april of 2013 and the and the august of 2013

00:20:12 the and the august of 2013 by which you were tracking the progress of the grenfell tower project um yeah from um seven years ago i cannot remember it

00:20:25 seven years ago i cannot remember it says you have a business meeting with kmc

00:20:27 kmc coming up soon what was that going to be about that meeting again i cannot recall that meeting who would it have been with do you remember i don't know do you know what it was for

00:20:38 i don't know do you know what it was for i it would be an informal meeting to discuss our respective businesses do you know who had organized it no i

00:20:51 do you know who had organized it no i don't remember the meeting an informal meeting to discuss your prospective businesses

00:21:01 was that a regular event with kensington and chelsea it would be uh um something that's part of my remit with uh all of my clients to

00:21:14 meet with them just to have a a business to business exchange or um people that we want to work for it looks from this email mr blake

00:21:25 looks from this email mr blake as if between or at some point between the april and the august of 2013 you had continued or resumed personal contacts

00:21:34 contacts with the tmo or with kensington chelsea about this project is that right yeah it seems that way yeah right and was that peter madison or sasha

00:21:46 and was that peter madison or sasha jevons

00:21:47 jevons or anybody i don't know because i can't recall the meeting mr harris comes back to you the same day saying excellent news if you look at the top of that page as always we will provide any support

00:21:58 as always we will provide any support required for the pqq what support was he referring to um if

00:22:07 um if if the pqq reached into

00:22:12 supply chain partners and

00:22:16 about their company that might be part of the pqq

00:22:23 any if there's any technical questions in the pqq to be answered um he's doing his role as a

00:22:35 supply chain partner for his client so do i take from that answer that if you had difficulty answering some of

00:22:47 if you had difficulty answering some of the questions in the pq on matters on which mark harris could help you could ring him up or send him an email and he would help you yes yeah and presumably for your way of

00:22:58 yes yeah and presumably for your way of understanding he was doing that in the hope

00:23:00 hope and possibly the expectation that you would you would subcontract the job to him once

00:23:04 him once once he won it that's right yes can i ask you to go to ryd401398 please this is an email from you to mark harris

00:23:16 this is an email from you to mark harris of harley this time dated 27th of september 2013. so a month on uh it and in it mr harris says to you

00:23:27 uh it and in it mr harris says to you hi steve how are things progressing with the pqq on grenfell tower as you might recall we made contact with the architect about the cladding back in april

00:23:36 april he called up a few days ago and asked for a meeting ray and myself met with bruce sones and thomas wreck of studio e architects this morning we had a good session talking about several aspects including available products

00:23:47 products interface details program access design and budget costs we spoke extensively about ferrier point being there being that there there are a number of strong similarities between ferry and grenfell i think they might well pay

00:24:00 and grenfell i think they might well pay a visit to newham in the near future when are you expecting to hear back on your pqq submission now just just taking it in stages first of all what did you understand mr harris to be referring

00:24:12 to be referring when he described the contact with the architect about the cladding did you have any idea of what he was talking about

00:24:22 no that's um

00:24:28 pretty straightforward i think did you know that harley had made contact with the architect about the cladding

00:24:36 cladding back in april 2013 before mr harris sent you this message no i didn't did it come as a surprise to you no

00:24:45 you no so would you expect a potential subcontractor on a contract or a project where there was

00:24:53 was a a a a different incumbent or potential contractor to be making contact with the architect

00:25:03 i just see that's mark doing his job you say he says oh sorry you see that he says as you might recall we made contact do you recall or did you

00:25:14 we made contact do you recall or did you recall at the time that he had made contact with the architect in april about cladding i didn't know that well it looks from this email as if he thought you did know it because he

00:25:25 he thought you did know it because he said as you might recall can you explain if you had if you didn't know me about it why mr harris might have thought you did

00:25:31 did yeah well i have no memory of him saying that

00:25:36 that we don't we don't see a response to you from you saying dear mark i don't know what you're talking about i had no idea that you had been talking to the architect in april about the cladding now given that there's no response do we

00:25:48 now given that there's no response do we take it from that but you weren't very surprised about it

00:25:53 as i said before i see this as mark um chasing down his lead on a on a job and nothing of that being unusual at all right

00:26:04 right he goes on to say we spoke extensively about ferrier point being that there are a number of strong similarities between ferry and grenfell what similarities did you appreciate existed between grenfell and the ferrier

00:26:17 existed between grenfell and the ferrier point project at this point that they were both tower blocks

00:26:23 blocks so that's a strong similarity i said well yes

00:26:27 well yes right does it not go a bit further than that

00:26:31 that it does but they're both tower blocks with

00:26:34 with um which are over clad yes any any any other strong similarities with residents in occupation anything more

00:26:47 not about on that no okay let's turn to a different topic formal procurement of ryden can i ask you to go to your statement please which is a page 4 paragraph 2.5.3

00:26:59 which is a page 4 paragraph 2.5.3 and you say there finance this is the heading

00:27:02 heading in my role as director i oversee the estimating process when tendering for new work

00:27:07 new work now does that mean staying up to date finger on pulse with the progress being made in financial discussions relating to procurement

00:27:18 yes does it also mean staying up to date on progress in any discussions about value engineering um not necessarily

00:27:31 um not necessarily not necessarily at the time on this project did you involve yourself in the estimating process

00:27:41 uh for grenfell yes i did yes is it fair to say that you oversaw the work of the estimators yeah i'm the yeah i'm the director

00:27:52 yeah i'm the yeah i'm the director responsible for that function yeah yes and those estimators were and correct me if i'm wrong katie bachelier and zach maynard for the grenfell tower project um zach's not an estimator he's the

00:28:03 zach's not an estimator he's the commercial manager who managed that um function i see so i see so so just help me katie bercelia was the estimator and are

00:28:14 katie bercelia was the estimator and are you saying zach maynard was her line manager correct i see but he's not an estimator he's uh he was a commercial manager correct i see now what about frank smith what role did

00:28:26 now what about frank smith what role did he play

00:28:26 he play in the estimation exercise for the grenfell tower project um he helped katie at paragraph 2.5.4 under procurement you say i'm responsible for overseeing

00:28:39 you say i'm responsible for overseeing the procurement process in relation to each new project and then you go on to say in the fourth line i then oversee the appointment of suitable contractor suppliers and consultants

00:28:50 consultants so is it right that you are involved not only in the financial aspect of procurement but in fact the whole process

00:28:56 process of procurement um yeah that's i'm directly responsible for that yeah yes

00:29:03 yeah yes and you as we know signed ryden's tender bid

00:29:07 bid that's it yes now can we look at ryd three zeros eight 3086624 please

00:29:22 this is an email at the top from you dated the 7th of january 2014 to paul featherston at j.s wright

00:29:33 and it comes

00:29:38 on well by it looks as if it's a response in some way or a forward from an email sent by katie bachelier to you

00:29:47 you zack maynard frank smith simon lawrence alan sharrick's and frank smith again for good measure j.s wright so it's a discussion with terence from js wright

00:29:58 with terence from js wright and about him struggling to return a tender for grenfell tower so that's the context

00:30:02 context and you say to paul featherson that jazz right can this be reviewed in my view grenfell is the best opportunity that ryden have what did you mean by that um it was

00:30:13 what did you mean by that um it was a contract that we like so we felt we could be

00:30:20 competitive with in terms of um cost and we were able to demonstrate previous experience so

00:30:33 in terms of tendering you don't win every tender so for just rights not to

00:30:42 provide a price for our tender was extremely disappointing so i'm trying to in um motivate him to price the contract for

00:30:55 motivate him to price the contract for us

00:30:56 us so when you say the best opportunity that ryden have were you saying that grenfell was the best tender out of a range of tenders in terms of the fit for the business um and the size

00:31:09 um and the size uh and also the the scope of the works um yeah that's i saw that as the um the best opportunity that we had at

00:31:21 um the best opportunity that we had at that particular time yeah thank you now can i ask you to go to ryd 3086648 please that's an email from you to tim shutler and jeff henton dated the 6th of march

00:31:33 and jeff henton dated the 6th of march 2014

00:31:35 2014 what we looked at earlier this morning in the context of the housing conference you'll recall you'll recall that now just putting it in its time frame or time context that was

00:31:46 time context that was while the tender process was going on wasn't it

00:31:51 um yeah i i don't know what date the actual tender was submitted um well i think it's signed on the 13th of february 2000 so that would

00:32:03 the 13th of february 2000 so that would have gone in on that day 14. it went in mid-february yeah and the result hadn't yet been announced at least not formally had it

00:32:14 at least not formally had it no and indeed i think it's right that chronologically the tender interviews have not even yet taken place had they no

00:32:25 and you we looked at this before but let's look at it again we have been informally advised that we are in pole position ours to lose and then four

00:32:36 ours to lose and then four sorry three lines or paragraphs down from that we are at interview tomorrow so is it right that you were informally told that you were in pole position

00:32:48 told that you were in pole position even though you hadn't yet been interviewed

00:32:54 against what you've put there then that um

00:32:57 um yeah that that's how that reads did it not strike you as strange that you had been told even informally that you were in pole position even though you hadn't yet been interviewed

00:33:08 though you hadn't yet been interviewed by the client um yeah but if we interviewed poorly then we wouldn't be in pole position right

00:33:22 you say the grenfell project was ours to lose who told you that um i don't know did peter madison tell you that

00:33:31 you that i don't know the sausage evans tell you that i don't know how would ryden have lost lost it

00:33:42 um i don't know does it really mean that

00:33:50 you you were going to win it unless you threw it away somehow the process had to go through its process

00:33:57 process before um we would um think we had won it now you i'm being told that informally we're in pole position ours to lose

00:34:12 that must have been pretty hot but also pretty secret information is that right

00:34:26 um i don't know really i don't know why it's secret well can you tell us whether the other

00:34:38 well can you tell us whether the other tenderers had also been told that you ryden were in pole position and it was yours to lose

00:34:45 i don't know what they've been told indeed

00:34:48 indeed did right well did you go you i think you told us this morning you didn't attend the interviews do you know who did

00:34:56 did um it was i think alan simon and nikki as i said earlier do you know whether ryden gave any assurances at the interview

00:35:07 assurances at the interview as to how it would value engineer the project to meet the tmo's requirements i don't know can we look then at the artelia tender report this

00:35:18 then at the artelia tender report this is art402197 and it's dated the 12th of march 2014. so just look at the first page is this

00:35:29 so just look at the first page is this is this document familiar to you no it's the final tender report on enhancements and improvement to grenfell tower

00:35:38 it's not familiar to you so are you telling us that even though you oversaw the tender process you didn't see the artelia final tender report

00:35:49 tender report no well i'm not familiar with this document all right well it's dated 12th of march 2014. i just wonder why you didn't see the tender report given that you were

00:35:57 you were the refurbishment director in charge of tendering for the project i don't think i've sent this report well let's um

00:36:04 let's um see page 10 and let's see if you can help us with it if you can't you can't page 10

00:36:10 page 10 para first sentence tender results

00:36:15 uh all three remaining tenders durkan mulally and ryden returned their tenders by the required time and date tenders were opened on the 14th of february the offices of kctma by robert black and faye edwards

00:36:26 black and faye edwards and then you can see the tender sums at the bottom can you see contractor and tender amount ryden 9.2 odd million durkheim 9.9 on million and malali 10.4 odd million

00:36:37 odd million so ryden was by far the cheapest wasn't it

00:36:40 it i can't see the bottom of the paper

00:36:45 can we move it that's it right you're quite right i'm so sorry i'll repeat the question if you look at 3.2 tender sums and you see the the three contractors and the sums set out in the column on

00:36:56 and the sums set out in the column on the right

00:36:56 the right yes so ryden 9.2 durkheim 9.9 and mulally

00:37:01 mulally 10.4 million respectively so ryden was by far the cheapest yes yes now if we go to page 12 this is a breakdown of the tender sums

00:37:16 and i just like to look at the pretender estimate for each major area if you look at ryden's figures in the column next to it so you can see how it works this page

00:37:28 how it works this page and you i i wonder if it's possible it probably isn't to turn this into landscape

00:37:34 landscape uh well let's see how we get on um if you look at the top of the page it's descriptions and then artelia's pre-tender estimate and then the three bids and an average uh and it's done

00:37:45 uh and it's done per per package uh and if you look down preliminaries you can see that ryden come in almost a million pounds cheaper than durkheim

00:37:56 durkheim as the next highest bidder and 1.3 odd million pounds cheaper than milalli you see that and then if you look at external facade as item b8 if we could just go

00:38:07 as item b8 if we could just go uh flip up a bit thank you external facade

00:38:12 facade artelia's pre-tender estimate was 2.6 million and ryden come in at 3.8 million durkheim is 3.6 million and melania's 4.1 million see that and then fees for novated team

00:38:26 see that and then fees for novated team uh you can see the figures for that under item 13. you just flip to item 13 please i think we just need to scroll down you can see the feeds of the elevated

00:38:37 can see the feeds of the elevated team there now if you um does that tell us that ryden was able to tender

00:38:44 tender at lower than artelia's estimated price in many significant areas

00:38:55 yeah yes now if you look at page 24

00:39:02 and look at tender price and the price for the alternative works and the overall

00:39:07 overall scoring

00:39:11 you can see that with the weightings you can see what the weightings are there in the left-hand column tender price and price for alternative works are weighted

00:39:22 works are weighted uh at thirty-four percent and six percent respectively in the calculation of the overall tender score so does that tell us that forty percent of the score was price based

00:39:35 34 plus six price and alternative price yeah i've never seen this document no okay well um did you understand that 40 of the scoring was going to be price-based

00:39:49 um yeah i didn't um did you know at the time you put in your bid that the scoring would be 40

00:39:58 be 40 price-based no i i don't know whether there was a published scoring matrix um that came out with the tender so right some do some don't but i didn't know that

00:40:14 looking back at page 12 i'd like just to examine one thing with you which is the fees for the novated team i showed you a moment ago under line 13. you can see that artelia's pre

00:40:25 line 13. you can see that artelia's pre tender estimate for the novated fees the fees for the novated team was 163 odd thousand pounds uh and your fees were 126 000 odd

00:40:36 uh and your fees were 126 000 odd patterns how did ryden reduce or get the novated design team's fees down by about uh 40 000 odd pounds below the estimate do you know do you remember i can't

00:40:48 do you know do you remember i can't answer that question because i don't know what the breakdown of the inclusion for the 163 is

00:40:56 okay and let me try and i'll get at the point slightly more generally [Applause] we can see in general terms not in every case but in general terms that ryden had

00:41:08 case but in general terms that ryden had underbid the other competitors very substantially in a number of areas

00:41:16 my question is when you were putting your bid in how were you satisfied that ryden wasn't sacrificing a commensurate amount of quality and service

00:41:27 service on the project when underbidding its competitors by about a million pounds and indeed martial's own market by about six hundred thousand pounds

00:41:40 um all i know is that our tender is built up uh from tender returns from the marketplace

00:41:52 from tender returns from the marketplace um so there's an aggregation of cost that goes into the into the tender so it's arrived at a cost

00:42:04 so it's arrived at a cost for the works um the tender there's a margin put on that cost which is basically a reflection of

00:42:16 reflection of what the market competition is

00:42:21 which we did and our competitors would have i would imagine um they may have been

00:42:34 i would imagine um they may have been busy

00:42:34 busy um and then said that the market is going to bear more uh more return than we bid at

00:42:46 uh more return than we bid at so it's um

00:42:51 it's a bid made at a point in time as a reflection of of the market was it at all obvious to you at the time that you were going to be under

00:43:02 that you were going to be under extreme time and financial pressure to complete the works to this budget

00:43:10 um well hey i didn't know what the competitors had bid at no um i'm not suggesting you did mr blake but given the degree of difference that triggers me to ask the question

00:43:21 that triggers me to ask the question given the size of the difference was it in your mind at the time that ryden was going to be under extreme financial pressure and indeed pressure of time to complete the works within budget

00:43:34 time to complete the works within budget no that wasn't um we'd competitively bid for the project on a like say an assembled tender um so therefore that that was

00:43:48 um so therefore that that was what we are contracted to do we are obliged to do can i ask you to go to ryd403279

00:43:58 ryd403279 this is an email of the 11th of march 2014 from jeff henton to alan sharrick's and simon lawrence you can see there i'd just like to look at the first paragraph with you hi team i've spoken

00:44:10 paragraph with you hi team i've spoken with peter madison at kensington and chelsea tmo limited who informs me that our price for the above is in first place ally to which our presentation and documentation is also

00:44:19 also in first place therefore subject to a small amount of value engineering peter should be in a position to recommend our appointment on this scheme to his board early next week

00:44:29 week i'd personally like to thank you for all your efforts in achieving this excellent result and look forward to a successful scheme

00:44:40 now the reference there to small amount of value engineering uh subject to that he'd be able to recommend you um do you know why this was sent to mr

00:44:52 um do you know why this was sent to mr sharrocks

00:44:53 sharrocks by mr henton

00:44:59 um only if i was away if i was on um right you see i should have pointed this out to you but you're not copied in on this email yeah i wonder why that was you either

00:45:11 yeah i wonder why that was you either the recipient nor a copy why is that do you know i can only think that i

00:45:18 that i i was on leave right um given that you were responsible for the overseeing the procurement process

00:45:27 why would being on leave matter um it wouldn't i can't see any reason why i wouldn't be on that uh email chart that's that's good news

00:45:41 uh email chart that's that's good news for our business it is and good news for you because you had overseen the tenders you told us well it was a team event so um but yeah that's

00:45:52 event so um but yeah that's you know a lot of work goes into preparing a a tender uh of that size and and with all the uh different trades to put together so

00:46:06 uh different trades to put together so um yeah that's

00:46:10 that that's that's what that emails do when i see that i just want to know why you're not in on it i don't know right and um why was mr sharok's the primary recipient of that email what was his role in relation to

00:46:22 was his role in relation to getting the project because he he must have led the uh the the interview team and um

00:46:33 with simon um and i didn't know they've got zach on there as well sorry mr henton refers to a conversation he'd

00:46:44 mr henton refers to a conversation he'd had with peter madison did he or anybody else tell you about that conversation

00:46:51 only via this well i didn't get this email did i but um no

00:46:58 do you know how do you know how it comes about can you explain how come jeff henton is having a conversation with peter madison about this bid

00:47:08 does it come as a surprise to you that he was having this conversation um no um and very often um

00:47:21 many of the clients would um you know

00:47:29 you know say that you've presented a good tender yes you see there's a conversation that happens between mr henton is the managing director of writing and peter madison

00:47:39 madison at tmo and he's told in it and you can see it in this email that ryden are in first place and what i'm keen to understand is how that conversation came about mr

00:47:50 is how that conversation came about mr blake

00:47:51 blake you're the refurbishment director in charge of this tender bid you're not in on this email and i just want to know how much you can tell us about this conversation i can't tell anything about that conversation

00:48:03 conversation you explained your contact with peter madison and sasha jevons are you aware of anybody else at ryden who had contacts in the tmo and vice versa

00:48:17 only the jeff um same as me

00:48:24 knew peter and sasha as well [Music]

00:48:30 [Music] is it fair to say that you were aware at this stage of the required value engineering exercise in any event by this time

00:48:39 um

00:48:42 yeah i mean i have to say it's a surprise you know i don't know why i'm not on that email but the value engineering

00:48:54 i became aware of when the guy from the tmo made contact with me

00:49:01 me now at the date of this email it's right isn't it that the oj eu tender process was not complete

00:49:10 yeah i mean i'm i don't know the rules and regulations of that so um that's

00:49:18 the client agent t well let me let me put it this way as at the 11th of march 2014 you knew and if you told me if you didn't tell me that none of the tenderers

00:49:30 that none of the tenderers had been told of the results of the tender

00:49:33 tender and they were still waiting oh i didn't know that

00:49:37 know that uh

00:49:40 well you didn't know that so is it your recollection that as at the 11th of march you did know the results of the tender

00:49:55 sorry i'm confused by the first what did you know

00:49:58 you know about everything do you mean we tried again right let's put it more neutrally as at the 11th of march 2014 mr blake what was your knowledge about the results of the tender process that

00:50:09 the results of the tender process that you've been overseeing um well at the 11th of march um if i'd had this email then i'd have

00:50:20 um if i'd had this email then i'd have i'd have had that information so um but that's saying to us that um all been well um

00:50:32 we're involved with you with it looks like we've won the tender um what i didn't know what i was trying to say to you is i didn't know what uh the other tenders

00:50:43 didn't know what uh the other tenders had been

00:50:44 had been informed no no no i'm not asking you what the other tenders have been i thought that's what you asked me you would have known that you had not yet followed me would you have known that you would not yet have received a

00:50:55 have received a formal letter informing you ryden of the outcome of the tender process you would have known that yeah but sometimes a formal letter will arrive

00:51:07 arrive in a week's time or it doesn't necessarily come out the same day as a as an award

00:51:15 can you accept as a fact that as at the 11th of march ryden had not received any formal notification from the tmo uh that it was the chosen contractor

00:51:27 if there isn't a letter then that yeah that must be the case well we have a letter date of the 18th of march oh it's the refresher collection but did you right uh did you did you know that at the time

00:51:39 did you did you know that at the time if it was sent to me then i would have known that at the time i haven't got that

00:51:42 that um date specific recollect now

00:51:48 now did you understand at this time and i know you didn't receive this email but did you understand at this time that ryden's appointment would be con conditional upon its ability or willingness to accommodate

00:52:00 willingness to accommodate the tmo's desire for value engineering um

00:52:05 um i didn't know that you didn't know that

00:52:10 i see

00:52:15 did does it follow from that that you didn't know that if ryden was willing to accommodate the tma's desire for value engineering then that would put it in a prime position to secure the

00:52:27 put it in a prime position to secure the appointment well as i said that became evident when i was contacted by the tmo right let's just see how we go with this

00:52:37 with this let's just trace the story through in the light of that answer

00:52:43 ryd3086654 please

00:52:48 this is an email of the uh 11th of march the same day is the one i've been showing you

00:52:55 at the bottom of the page [Music]

00:52:59 [Music] and i'm so sorry i should show you page two actually to start with now we can see that there's an email chain

00:53:06 chain running through the 11th of march all day

00:53:10 day so we start on page two we roll up to page one mr blake so you're even if you're on leave you're still very much in contact with katie bichelier

00:53:20 bichelier about the estimation process for this i was only suggesting i was on leave as a reason why i wasn't on the email all right but okay let's see how we go not

00:53:30 not being on that copy i i understand this is katie bushellier to you 11th of march

00:53:37 march steve just to let you know i found the francism in grenfell he hasn't added the provisional sums to 212 000

00:53:44 212 000 to our cost [Applause] so is it right that ms pacelier is telling you on this date at that time uh 11th of

00:53:56 on this date at that time uh 11th of march that the tender sum which ryden had submitted was 212 000 pounds lower than it should have been uh that's correct now if we go to up the screen to page one and look at the

00:54:08 the screen to page one and look at the bottom we can see your response 11th of march 1242 sorry 11th of march 1239 disappointing but not unexpected

00:54:19 but not unexpected hopefully there will be something to compensate the tas must be wrong when we complete the value engineering exercise we will reissue accordingly let's see where we go why was this not unexpected

00:54:32 why was this not unexpected um frank was employed during katie's maternity leave and

00:54:43 maternity leave and [Music]

00:54:45 [Music] right he wasn't as good a estimator as as katie or if he would make um

00:54:57 arithmetic errors so that's what the francism

00:55:01 francism uh refers to right i mean it sounds from what you're telling us that he was habit he made errors habitually hence the

00:55:12 errors habitually hence the nickname not not habitually but any any error of

00:55:16 error of arithmetic is um something that shouldn't happen but when she called it a francism it rather sounds as if this was something he was used to doing

00:55:27 was something he was used to doing um yeah

00:55:31 um yeah okay what did you mean by the tas must be wrong

00:55:34 be wrong uh tender adjudication sheet right now moving up to the the page to the middle miss picelier suggests in the next email back to you 1242 she

00:55:45 in the next email back to you 1242 she says the two hundred and twelve thousand pounds can be recovered by removing the window reveals from harley and by working a little bit harder to find some significant ve savings did you understand that she was

00:55:58 savings did you understand that she was contemplating identifying value engineering savings which could compensate for the 212 000 pound error um yeah i mean that's that's the essence of the

00:56:09 of the of the message um it's a very unwelcome bit of news on the on the day that you um

00:56:20 learn that you're in a pole position right so

00:56:23 right so um so you would if you go back to my previous email it's we need to let things um

00:56:36 things um run their course um

00:56:40 and there's nothing we can do about it you say it's very unwelcome bit of news on the day that you learn you're in pole position how did you learn you were in pole position on that day well i think that previous email was on

00:56:52 well i think that previous email was on the 11th of march wasn't it indeed the internal one you said you hadn't received it well i'm not on that copy but um it seems from this you know

00:57:05 it seems from this you know i must know about it clearly so on the basis of what you've just said do we take it that although you went on that copy you did see that email that day

00:57:17 see that email that day i don't know about seeing that email but someone would have told me um i just can't explain why i'm not on that email when they did tell you did they tell you that ryden was in pole position subject to

00:57:28 position subject to some value engineering which the tma would accept um they may have done but i don't recall that as a

00:57:35 that as a um you put as a condition okay uh

00:57:47 and is the thrust of what ms bushelly is telling you is that you'd be able to reduce the impact of 212 000 pounds on your tender figure by finding some significant value engineering savings

00:57:59 significant value engineering savings and keeping them

00:58:03 and just saying about value engineering so that's just a suggestion yes and it's a suggestion which involves

00:58:14 which involves finding significant value engineering savings and ryden keeping those savings or some of those savings for itself yes yes indeed yes now look at the top of the page uh

00:58:26 yes now look at the top of the page uh you

00:58:27 you you say to katy perchelier next day

00:58:32 katie thinking about this frank was asked to take out some performance which from memory was about two hundred thousand pounds what was the performance that frank was asked to take out do you remember um when a tender is put together

00:58:45 um when a tender is put together it um it's a there's two two state two levels to uh an estimate an estimate

00:58:55 estimate the function of the estimator is to um inform um

00:59:03 inform um let's call it me what the base cost is for that job so we will either measure elements of it go out to the market get quotes

00:59:15 out to the market get quotes so we will know that um so if we do this by example grenfell let's say

00:59:22 let's say that the cost for doing that works is eight million pounds and then on top of that we will take a view of our margin i.e what the market will bear

00:59:34 i.e what the market will bear and that that is the decision that's made at adjudication so

00:59:42 if we want to be very very competitive then

00:59:45 then we will we will take a view to say that that base cost is um maybe over measured or we can um buy

00:59:57 or we can um buy against our original um quotations so we will take a level of performance out of there to be as competitive as possible yes but can i i'm sorry i'm going to cut you off because it's a very long answer

01:00:08 off because it's a very long answer to i hope what i hope is a very short question

01:00:11 question what in the bid was about two hundred thousand pounds that was that frank was asked to take out nothing it was a view of the overall cost right

01:00:23 it was a view of the overall cost right now ryd403295

01:00:30 email 12th of march 2014 this is from you mr blake to your estimating team we are going to be asked by

01:00:41 we are going to be asked by k and c to find some further value engineering savings in addition to those identified in our tender and then you say let's wait until this approach is made before going to the supply chain in terms of value allocation we took

01:00:53 in terms of value allocation we took care to make provision against a specification that was exactly compliant and then you say this peter m is going to forward some ideas tomorrow peter m is peter madison is it

01:01:04 peter m is peter madison is it yes yes it appears that he had been in contact with you personally is that right

01:01:10 right no when you say peter m is going to forward some ideas tomorrow how did you know that

01:01:16 know that um that must have been of the the email that i didn't get well it was an email you didn't get how did you know he was going to do it then someone must have told me right i see do you know who that was

01:01:36 no

01:01:41 if you go back to the email

01:01:50 please which is ryd403279

01:02:05 there's nothing in that email which indicates that peter madison is going to be

01:02:10 be [Applause]

01:02:17 forwarding some ideas on the 13th of march

01:02:21 march is there

01:02:25 no and would it therefore follow that when you found out that peter madison was going to be boarding some ideas about value engineering savings tomorrow you must have got that from

01:02:37 tomorrow you must have got that from somewhere else

01:02:42 yes and therefore you must have either spoken to someone else in order to know that or seen it in writing somewhere yes yes do you remember who you spoke to

01:02:55 yes yes do you remember who you spoke to who told you that peter madison was going to be forwarding some ideas the next day no i can't remember would it have been peter madison it wouldn't have been peter

01:03:06 wouldn't have been peter how could you be so adamant about that because i know i didn't speak to him do you know who did speak to him well it shows that jeff's spoken to him

01:03:17 shows that jeff's spoken to him this email does not show oh sorry well let's go to the email go back to where we were ryd403295 please

01:03:27 this email is from you to your estimating team and it and does not and isn't even copied to mr henton and and doesn't say that you'd found that out from mr henson and i just want

01:03:38 that out from mr henson and i just want to know

01:03:39 to know how it is that you discovered that peter madison was going to forward some value engineering ideas on the 13th of march the next day

01:03:49 well it can only be that someone's told me

01:03:54 and only think that it was jeff who told me

01:03:57 me do you know whether there was any written record of that conversation um you'd have that as of the only record would be an email

01:04:13 of the only record would be an email it looks on the face of it that somebody at ryden

01:04:17 at ryden had spoken to somebody at the tma about the tmo

01:04:21 the tmo providing ideas about value engineering to ryden

01:04:25 to ryden at this time would you agree at least with that

01:04:28 with that yes yeah you can't help us as to who that was or how that came about no but i've speculated it was well don't don't will i all right can i ask you to go to ryd403302 please and i'd like to

01:04:42 go to ryd403302 please and i'd like to have pages one and two put up together

01:04:47 let's look at the bottom of page one and over the page this is an email of the

01:04:56 uh

01:05:00 this is an email of the 13th of march so indeed the next day 13th of march at the very bottom of page 1

01:05:07 1 sent to you copied to claire williams and peter madison and it says steve peter madison of the tmo has given me your contact details this is from david gibson head of

01:05:19 this is from david gibson head of capital investment i take it you didn't know david gibson at least at the tmo no no but peter madison gave him your contact details i understand you're

01:05:30 your contact details i understand you're currently in a meeting

01:05:34 did peter did peter madison have your contact details from previous dealings from your previous dealings with him

01:05:43 yeah macedonia do you remember giving them to him um i don't but my you can my contact details are on the on the website if you if you want to get

01:05:54 on the website if you if you want to get them

01:05:57 well we can argue about that uh about why it might be necessary for mr madison to give mr gibson your contact details if they were in the public domain but that's that might be a matter of a

01:06:08 but that's that might be a matter of a comment

01:06:09 comment but did can i just ask you he goes on to say i have attached a simple spreadsheet indicating the areas we would like you to look at in relation to possible savings

01:06:20 savings our target is around 100 800 000 pounds which included the cladding savings already priced and any grant income to the scheme you see that now can i ask you to go to

01:06:34 you see that now can i ask you to go to the attachment there's an attachment to this

01:06:37 this at ryd403301

01:06:43 and the native version of that i'd like to look at

01:06:50 and this is the spreadsheet attached to the email from mr gibson this is his simple spreadsheet did you open this attachment when you received his email

01:07:02 received his email yes you did you can see uh that in the first line the works budget is eight million four hundred and fifteen thousand pounds the cost savings to be

01:07:13 thousand pounds the cost savings to be made

01:07:14 made need to be in the region of eight hundred thousand pounds

01:07:19 was eight hundred thousand pounds the small amount that peter madison had led you to understand would be necessary

01:07:27 and yeah that's the the amount yeah was this the first time that you at least were told what the tmo's actual works budget was yes now we saw that ryden's tender sum

01:07:40 yes now we saw that ryden's tender sum was 9.249 million odd pounds were you not a little bit shocked to discover the size of the price cut that the tma were after um no

01:07:53 um no it's 8.7 percent on my calculations is that not a pretty hefty price cut um it's a significant amount of money

01:08:04 um it's a significant amount of money um but it's not unusual for a client to do exactly that

01:08:16 and we can see that of the price cuts that they were after in his simple spreadsheet mr gibson had

01:08:27 in his simple spreadsheet mr gibson had identified a number of candidates the third of which

01:08:31 which was cladding subject to planning approval

01:08:35 approval was mentioned in the tender as alternative costs 243 000 pounds did you see from this that the biggest element of the 800 000 pounds cost saving would come from saving 243

01:08:48 cost saving would come from saving 243 000 pounds on the cladding yeah i mean i remember thinking it's a bit of a peculiar um spreadsheet anyway because

01:08:59 um spreadsheet anyway because um you've got two items identified for 343 and 800 grand to get t

01:09:12 now let's see what you say about this in your statement let's look at that it's

01:09:17 ryd3094225 at page six and i'd like to look at paragraph four point four [Applause]

01:09:30 you say ryden submitted a tender dated 14th of february 2014. subsequent to ryden's tender i received an email dated 13th of march 2014 from peter gibson of kctm attaching

01:09:43 2014 from peter gibson of kctm attaching a spreadsheet indicating the areas where kctmo sought to achieve savings in the order of eight hundred thousand pounds the potential savings identified included using aluminium range screen clouding as an alternative to zinc rain

01:09:54 clouding as an alternative to zinc rain screen cladding my impression at this time was that ryden was the successful tenderer and the kc tma wished to enter into a contract with writing kctmo committed to a pre-contract service agreement with ryden which

01:10:05 service agreement with ryden which allowed work to get underway while these savings were finalized so by 13th of march which is the date of this email exchange and this

01:10:17 this email exchange and this spreadsheet we've just been looking at were you under the impression that ryden was going to be appointed

01:10:25 yes but ryden was also required to find eight hundred thousand pounds of savings and in addition to that something to be able to enable it to recoup the two hundred

01:10:37 to enable it to recoup the two hundred and twelve thousand pound costing error that had crept into the calculations as a result of the francism so is it right that you're about a million pounds a drift of your night your 9.2 million pound bid

01:10:51 night your 9.2 million pound bid um i wouldn't connect them like that but there's the client wants to find 800 grand um

01:11:02 800 grand um and we have a 200 grand um

01:11:07 error to go to accommodate so you're a million pounds underwater from your bid of 9.2 million we're not under water the 800 grand is client choice

01:11:21 the 800 grand is client choice mr chairman is that a convenient moment for a brand yes i think the shorthand writer would probably quite welcome that now um mr blake we're going to have a short break now same rules applied no talking to anyone about your evidence please

01:11:33 about your evidence please and we'll come back at half past three so when you're ready if you'd like to give the usher thank you

01:11:49 good first three please

01:25:47 yes would you ask mr blake to come back

01:25:52 please

01:26:04 [Applause]

01:26:07 right mr blake ready to carry on yes thank you good thank you yes mr miller the chairman mr blake did you or to your knowledge anybody else at ryden tell the tmo

01:26:18 else at ryden tell the tmo that ryden had made a 212 000 pound costing error when putting in the bid

01:26:25 no one told them that no no is there any reason why ryden didn't tell the tma that

01:26:31 that um that's

01:26:35 um that's our our pricing error so there's nothing that they can do about that right now i just want to put three pieces of evidence

01:26:47 evidence together and then ask you a question about it if i may on the 7th of january 2014

01:26:51 2014 you described grenfell as the best opportunity ride and have and we looked at that on the 6th of march 2014 you said that ryden had been told that

01:27:02 you said that ryden had been told that they were in pole position informally and it was ours to lose and on the 11th of march 2014 we see jeff henton telling your colleagues

01:27:13 jeff henton telling your colleagues at least that ryden was in first place amongst other tenderers my question in the light of those three pieces of evidence is did do you accept that that you

01:27:26 did do you accept that that you didn't want to endanger the position that ryden was in by disclosing to the tmo

01:27:32 tmo that you'd made a costing error

01:27:36 um i would never go back to any client with a costing error

01:27:45 do you agree that ryden's own budget two hundred and twelve thousand pounds plus eight hundred thousand pounds value engineering to find was under strain as a result

01:27:59 no that's due process to go through i see now as at the 13th of march 2013 do you recall that the ojeu process was

01:28:10 do you recall that the ojeu process was still

01:28:11 still officially ongoing in that none of the tenderers at least to your knowledge had been told the result

01:28:20 yeah i didn't i didn't know that

01:28:30 i mean at this stage i think you still hadn't received any formal notification from the tmo that you were the winners

01:28:38 no you said there was a letter received later

01:28:42 later yeah now can we look at your witness statement

01:28:46 statement it's still on the page apparent page six paragraph 4.4 you say and this is uh 13th of march 2012 and this is in the context of the email we've been looking

01:28:58 context of the email we've been looking at mr blake with the spreadsheet and halfway down the paragraph it's you say my impression at this time was that ryden was the successful tenderer and that

01:29:09 was the successful tenderer and that kctma wished to enter into a contract with ryden given the contact between the tmo and jeff henton that we saw on the 11th of march in that email

01:29:20 march in that email ryden are in first place it says it was rather more of an impression wasn't it at the time

01:29:28 um

01:29:31 well impression is that it's that's what i've been told so that's why i

01:29:39 i said it like that

01:29:43 looking at the spreadsheet we've been looking at we can go to it again if you like

01:29:48 like was it your impression or understanding at the time that mr madison's request for a saving of eight hundred thousand pounds of which had come through come through on the spreadsheet from mr gibson

01:29:59 gibson told you that the tmo had discovered that the t the scheme they had put out to tender

01:30:04 to tender was in excess of its own budget and that it was contemplating significant savings and changes to the tender the tendered scheme as a result

01:30:18 yes to your knowledge were any other contractors given the opportunity to consider

01:30:26 consider those required savings

01:30:30 i don't know

01:30:36 do you accept that effectively ryden had free reign to cost the amount of any savings by way of value engineering

01:30:47 of value engineering unchecked or untested by quotes from other contractors

01:30:55 um yeah put like that but we've we've tended on the basis of um the analysis that was done that

01:31:06 of um the analysis that was done that this is a

01:31:08 this is a this is a secondary event that um the client can choose to do can we go to ryd403302 please this is an email from you to mr gibson

01:31:22 this is an email from you to mr gibson in response to his email of the 13th of march

01:31:26 march we saw earlier the one at the bottom of the page over to page two we're now on page

01:31:30 page one this is you back to get david gibson same day

01:31:33 same day copy to claire williams and peter madison hi david understand what's required and see no reason why this can't be achieved your spreadsheet says a tuesday pm meet rather than a monday pm his email would

01:31:45 rather than a monday pm his email would work perfectly as requested we will respond early monday regarding opportunities for savings and time scales now when you said that you could see no reason why this can't be achieved

01:31:56 reason why this can't be achieved how do you come to that conclusion um that that's me putting a positive attitude in front of a prospective client had you done any internal work at ryden

01:32:08 internal work at ryden to see whether the spreadsheet was realistic um not especially no

01:32:18 is it fair to say that you were keen to oblige the tmo at this stage yes and i think anybody in my position would be exactly the same did you take any steps to satisfy yourself

01:32:31 any steps to satisfy yourself that an additional eight hundred thousand pounds saving on top of uh the under the price was achievable um no i mean i was keen to

01:32:44 um no i mean i was keen to attend the meeting to talk about opportunities um the client for example could omit the external works and save all their money

01:32:55 works and save all their money themselves um so

01:32:59 um so that that's their choice isn't it so when you say you were putting a a a a positive

01:33:07 attitude in front of a prospective client is it right that you you were saying you see no reason why this can't be achieved without actually having done the internal work to work out for yourselves whether in

01:33:19 to work out for yourselves whether in fact the 800 000 pound saving could be achieved it it can be achieved in a multitude of ways so i just go back to meeting the client um to discuss

01:33:32 meeting the client um to discuss what opportunities there are yes but you hadn't had the internal discussion at ryden

01:33:36 ryden and sat down with the 800 000 pounds to find to work out for yourselves whether actually it could be achieved no but i i put it out to the team to see to say can you go and find it

01:33:49 to say can you go and find it now the spreadsheet says a tuesday pm meet rather than monday pm um

01:33:58 pm um do you remember going to a meeting on the tuesday p.m yes i do yeah now that tuesday uh was an it was the 18th of march 2014.

01:34:12 was an it was the 18th of march 2014. now in his witness statement mr lawrence says that you attended that meeting along with katie bachelier and you met david gibson peter madison and claire williams

01:34:23 and claire williams do you recall that yes but only like i said vaguely i think it was in the estate office do you recall what was discussed at that

01:34:34 do you recall what was discussed at that meeting

01:34:36 meeting um not specifically um no i don't in general

01:34:44 um went through the uh need to um find a significant amount of um

01:34:55 find a significant amount of um savings um

01:34:58 yeah for the for the scheme to meet their budget right let's see how we go you see there's nothing in your statement about that meeting do you know why that is why did your statement not cover this meeting

01:35:12 um i didn't see any need to put it in there

01:35:16 there right uh it was quite an important meeting was it not because this was the the first time you were actually going to meet the prospective client in relation to this tender no

01:35:31 well i i didn't see a need to put it in there very well do you remember whether options for cladding savings were discussed at that meeting

01:35:43 were discussed at that meeting um i know that as part of the tender we were asked to identify a saving for a um

01:35:53 an alternative cladding

01:35:58 manufacturer which was the money that was identified on that spreadsheet

01:36:07 nothing more than that well just i'm picking that answer that spreadsheet wasn't part of the tender pack what that you were responding to

01:36:18 pack what that you were responding to was it

01:36:23 the sheet that was emailed to me david gibson's

01:36:26 gibson's simple spreadsheet yes that wasn't no it wasn't no

01:36:30 wasn't no and the tender pack didn't actually ask for 800 000 pounds of savings did it no it didn't no no and

01:36:45 when you say as part of the tender we were asked to identify a saving for an alternative cladding manufacturer which part of the tender precisely are you talking about

01:36:56 you talking about um there was in there for i think for an alternate there was a section for an alternative um uh cladding are you talking about the

01:37:08 uh cladding are you talking about the nbs specification um well that's where it was identified but on the on the tender submission the 243 was a figure that we quoted

01:37:20 figure that we quoted no no let's just just unp let's get clarity here i asked you whether you remember whether at the meeting options for cladding savings were discussed and you just told us that as part of the

01:37:32 and you just told us that as part of the tender

01:37:33 tender you are asked to identify a saving for an alternative cladding manufacturer that's right now i'd like to know which part of the tender documentation which went to all tenderers asked

01:37:45 which went to all tenderers asked for a saving for alternative cladding manufacturer

01:37:52 my understanding is that was part of our tender submission we were asked for an alternative price and we gave that as part of our tender submission i see i see you're not referring to the nbs

01:38:03 i see you're not referring to the nbs specification then just so i'm clear no but i do know in the mbs specification the alternative cladding was

01:38:09 was identified but not for price purposes yes you think it was yes definitely yeah that's what the alternative price was because you read the nbs i thought you had told us that you

01:38:20 i thought you had told us that you didn't read the nba specification until you became contract manager in october 2015 mr blake am i wrong about it well that's why i understand why that price was given because that's where it was identified

01:38:31 because that's where it was identified when did you first read the nbs specification and the alternative cladding specification

01:38:38 um well i don't know but it was it wasn't at tender stage right i'm saying my understanding of why

01:38:49 right i'm saying my understanding of why that price was given at tender stage which i thought that's what you were asking me

01:38:57 now at that meeting i'll go back to my question

01:39:00 question do you remember where the options for cladding savings were discussed

01:39:07 only that that was that option was identified on that spreadsheet did you have the spreadsheet at the meeting um i may have done i don't recall now mr

01:39:19 i may have done i don't recall now mr lawrence says that at that meeting you discussed what could be done to bring the project within the tma's budget do you remember that that's the purpose of the meeting

01:39:31 that was the purpose of the meeting my question was whether mr lawrence is right when he says that you discussed what could be done to bring the project within the tma's budget was that what

01:39:42 within the tma's budget was that what was discussed i love to say that i can't recall but that's my understanding of why we had the meeting do you remember okay did ryden do you

01:39:55 do you remember okay did ryden do you remember whether ryden gave any assurances at the meeting that ryden was able to meet the tmo's budget or budget requirements um no assurances

01:40:08 no assurances was there any discussion at the meeting about the level of quality that the tma was looking for or the compromise it compromises on quality that it was prepared to make in order to

01:40:18 order to have the savings it wanted um no was there any written record of this meeting

01:40:26 meeting um i don't think so well let me ask you this way did you take a record did you write nate i didn't write any i didn't confirm anything to the um

01:40:37 any i didn't confirm anything to the um well i don't think that i don't recall doing that no do you do you remember seeing whether anybody else with that meeting took any notes of it i don't recall now let's look at

01:40:49 i don't recall now let's look at page one of this email run we can see that your final email here was to alan sharrick's zach maynard katie bushelly and simon lawrence

01:41:00 lawrence see email chain below and spreadsheet and then we can see the attachment riding potential cost reductions

01:41:09 i have spoken to harley's you say and said that if we can do some significant ve to match their budget we will be recommended i have asked them to reconfirm their price to double check

01:41:21 to reconfirm their price to double check the allowances we have submitted i will have the same conversation with the js wright and then you say meanwhile let's have a brainstorm for further ideas and confirm figures

01:41:30 figures on spreadsheet now this is the 13th of march

01:41:34 march i should have shown you that so we're some days yet away from the 18th of march meeting is it fair to say that you're the one at ryden orchestrating

01:41:45 ryden orchestrating the value engineering process and yeah getting it going yes definitely yeah getting it going and coordinating it orchestrating it yes is this email indicative of ryden's

01:42:00 yes is this email indicative of ryden's process in undertaking value engineering that it would go to its subcontractors to explore what savings ryden could get from them and then collate them all and then pass them on to the client um it would be a way of doing it yes

01:42:15 um it would be a way of doing it yes you say i've spoken to harley's do you know who you spoke to harley's who you speak sorry who you spoke to at harley's i don't recall who was your prime contact at harley's at this time

01:42:26 harley's at this time um

01:42:28 um either mark or ray mark harris or ray bailey

01:42:33 bailey do you remember the discussion that you had

01:42:37 no i don't

01:42:41 when it says to match their budget significant ve to match their budget i assume you mean the tma's budget that's right yeah so does it come to this that you were basically seeing

01:42:53 this that you were basically seeing whether harley could give you the savings on the cladding so that you could give the tmo the price cut they were after um if there was yeah against

01:43:05 um if there was yeah against an element of value engineering yes yes and then using the term ve value engineering did you consider whether the cut in prices for cladding needed to involve no loss of functionality or performance i would

01:43:19 of functionality or performance i would take b to mean that yes and what about safety

01:43:23 safety that's the same thing right can i look at hir 3010160

01:43:33 this is a document i don't think you would have seen at the time certainly it's come from harley's records and it's a sales stroke tender progress report compiled by mark harris

01:43:45 report compiled by mark harris and it runs from the first of march 2013.

01:43:49 2013. can i ask you to go to page five please and look at the entry at the second from bottom and uh it's the 13th of march there

01:44:00 it's the 13th of march there and it says m a h r j b

01:44:05 call received from steve blake at ryden he advised that ryden have been told quotes off the record unquote so they are in pole position however the job is over budget ryden are

01:44:16 however the job is over budget ryden are attending a meeting on monday and require us to confirm available value engineering for them to table agree to provide this by tomorrow

01:44:26 so just just looking at that do you remember calling harley on that day i don't remember but that's clearly that i've done it so and i think your recollection is right

01:44:37 and i think your recollection is right that mah mark harris rjb ray bailey so those are the two people you called it looks like from this yeah that's what i would do yeah yes

01:44:46 yeah yes and it it says that you told them that ryden have been told off the record that they're in pole position is is this record correct that is what you told them

01:44:58 you told them um i don't recall but if that's what's written then that's what i did right did you tell them to keep that a secret from the other tenderers no now let's look at ryd40315

01:45:15 this is an email sorry 3315 ryd403315 this is an email from mark harris of harley to you

01:45:26 harley to you i'll wait for it to come up it's ryd yes thank you um from mark harris to you

01:45:37 um from mark harris to you dated the 14th of march copied to simon lawrence catered bachelier and mike albuston

01:45:42 albuston at steve please find the first round of ee options attached for the grenfell tower

01:45:50 tower and he goes on to say in the second paragraph

01:45:54 paragraph this has been presented to show the value of the compliant package with ve cost options below the cutting is shown with four options for the main zinc areas at risk of stating the obvious the cladding savers are not cumulative

01:46:05 cladding savers are not cumulative only one of the four options can be selected

01:46:09 selected and then it goes on to so something about planners no doubt budget will be the driver here and then he goes on to say in the third main paragraph

01:46:20 uh i'm sorry i meant the third main paragraph that the the architects would be precious about retaining the spec for zinc cladding but no doubt budget will be the driver here now just just focusing on that third

01:46:31 now just just focusing on that third paragraph there did you get the message that face fixed acm panels would deliver significant savings but the planners were not very keen on it and would prefer

01:46:43 keen on it and would prefer a cassette fix yes did you understand that at the time the difference between face fixed which i think you and harley had used it

01:46:54 which i think you and harley had used it at camden

01:46:55 at camden chalcotes on the one hand and cassette fixed

01:46:59 fixed acm panels on the other

01:47:04 i knew there were different

01:47:07 arrangements of the of the facade had you

01:47:10 you or to your knowledge anybody else at ryden had any experience of using cassette acm panels on any building uh no we hadn't no now if we look at the attachment

01:47:23 now if we look at the attachment uh to this email you'll see at the top of this page in front of us it refers to an attachment proposed ve cost savings pdf 14th of march 2014.

01:47:34 savings pdf 14th of march 2014. let's look at it it's uh well first of all i should ask you did you open this attachment when you received this from mark harris um i can't say for sure but i would

01:47:45 um i can't say for sure but i would imagine that i would have done it all right well let's look at it it's ryd4033

01:47:54 and it's a document entitled grenfell tower london proposed ve cost savings compliant bid and

01:48:06 compliant bid and you can see that the compliant bid based on harley quotation 29th january 2014 3.7 million pounds using proteus zinc cassette cladding birch face plywood window reveals and then we see proposed

01:48:18 window reveals and then we see proposed ve cost savings ignore the wikona windows for the moment look at the and the upvc window reveals let's look at the four cladding savings rainable natural zinc

01:48:29 cladding savings rainable natural zinc clouding cassette in lieu of proteus zinc cladding cassette there's a saving of 157 odd thousand pounds rainable natural zinc cladding face fix in lieu of proteus zinc cladding

01:48:40 in lieu of proteus zinc cladding cassette 279 000 odd pound saving reynabon standard silver color aluminium cladding cassette in lieu of proteus including cassette

01:48:51 in lieu of proteus including cassette 419 on thousand pounds saving and then reynabon standard silver color aluminium cladding face fix in lieu of proteus including cassette a saving of 576 odd thousand pounds

01:49:04 saving of 576 odd thousand pounds looking at that do you recall opening that and studying it when you got it from mr harris on the 14th of march um yeah i

01:49:13 um yeah i like i said i would imagine that i would have opened it um and looked at it and clearly that would have indicated to you did it that rayna bonds

01:49:21 bonds acm cladding panels were going to deliver much bigger savings than zinc cladding

01:49:28 cladding um yes that's right and the face fixed uh um fixings or system would give an even bigger saving than a cassette system

01:49:39 cassette system yes yes by this time was it accepted by you and harley that acm cladding would be used

01:49:46 be used if an agreement could be obtained from the client and from rbkc's planning department

01:49:54 um do you remember that well based on the fact that they they wanted to make savings then if the planner accepted um the change against what the permission

01:50:06 the change against what the permission was granted against then yes that would be carried through yes

01:50:13 can i go to ryd403419

01:50:20 i'm going to come back to this document later in your evidence mr blake just so you know but just looking at this document this is an email second email down from uh peter blythe

01:50:31 second email down from uh peter blythe at artelia to peter arnold at ryden dated the 18th of march 2014. what was peter arnold's role in this uh exercise do you

01:50:42 exercise do you remember um he was a uh i was the email titled senior bid manager so he would have

01:50:53 would have been responsible for the uh um putting together of of this tender uh and and you can see that

01:51:00 that uh it says please find the attached notice of tender result for the works at grenfell tower

01:51:08 which then gets and that arrives at 1756 with him

01:51:12 with him and he sends that on to you eight minutes

01:51:16 minutes several seven odd minutes later at 1803 the same evening confirmation of granfell appointment you see that

01:51:22 see that yes was this after ryden's meeting with the tmo on the 18th of march

01:51:32 um yeah it must have been yes is it fair to say that that the arrival of this letter shows that you had done enough

01:51:41 enough so far as you saw it at the time during that meeting earlier in that day to convince the tmo that you were able and willing to make the savings required

01:51:52 um yeah i i would still say that the tender was adjudicated on the 9.2 let's look at the letter that was attached it's ryd403420

01:52:04 attached it's ryd403420 and it's the formal letter which was sent to say that ryden was the preferred bidder and let's just have both pages of the letter up together at the same time if we can pages one and two

01:52:17 time if we can pages one and two and it's entitled well as you can see dated is the 18th of march 2014 and it's entitled

01:52:23 entitled notice of preferred bit of statement status

01:52:28 status and if you look at the first two paragraphs you can see what artelia say about the position um and they tell you that you are the preferred bidder and it's the intention of kctma to enter

01:52:40 and it's the intention of kctma to enter into a contract with you subject to the agreement on the site boundary and a formal approval from the kctmo board and rbkc and then there's a standstill

01:52:52 and then there's a standstill it's a long letter but but i think you can take it from me that there's no reference in there anywhere to the discussions that you've been having over the previous seven days

01:53:03 been having over the previous seven days with the tmo in relation to value engineering

01:53:07 do you does that correspond with your understanding or recollection and we can look at the document yeah it does yeah yeah nor is there any reference in it

01:53:18 reference in it to the contract being or the obtaining of the contract being conditional on any further approvals by the tma as to price

01:53:30 yes do you know why that was

01:53:34 um because the attender was adjudicated on the

01:53:38 on the um 9.2

01:53:42 um 9.2 um bid right and that's what the comparison was made against if the client wishes to make changes thereafter that's

01:53:53 that's that's up to them it looks as if the decision

01:53:56 decision and perhaps you if you can help me with this then please do it if you can't then you can't but it looks as if the decision to appoint you as preferred bidder was made not only on the basis of the fact that ryden had initially put in the

01:54:07 fact that ryden had initially put in the lowest bid but also on the basis that you had satisfied the tmo that you could achieve eight hundred thousand pounds worth of value engineering savings is that how you saw it no

01:54:19 is that how you saw it no i see it it's been awarded on the basis of the tender that we submitted

01:54:27 did it occur to you at the time that having given you formal preferred bit of status

01:54:32 status on your bid price you could then hold them to that instead of agreeing to a cut in your price of eight hundred thousand pounds

01:54:41 that that's their choice not not ours yeah

01:54:45 yeah we we that's um basis upon what we they would want to contract with us once you had obtained preferred bit of status formally like this

01:54:57 status formally like this what was to stop you telling the tmo that actually the eight hundred thousand pounds wasn't doable and that you were going to stick to the tender price

01:55:07 um

01:55:10 because the

01:55:14 value engineering exercise was the client changing the the basis of the tender

01:55:23 tender we could put forward a suggestion for them to consider but the the changes is down to them you say it was the client the value

01:55:34 you say it was the client the value engineering exercise was the client changing the basis of the tender

01:55:40 that's right do you know whether the client

01:55:44 client told other bidders that they were changing the basis of the tender that's after the tender adjudication as or comparison has been

01:55:55 adjudication as or comparison has been done

01:55:56 done indeed mr blake that's the point were you aware of whether the tmo after the adjudication uh had had told other tenderers

01:56:07 other tenderers uh that a value engineering exercise was being pursued i didn't know what they spoke to the others about was there a secret arrangement or

01:56:18 was there a secret arrangement or understanding behind the scenes that if you agreed to reduce your contract price by 800 000 pounds you would get the job and you didn't feel as if you could go back on that there's no secret arrangement all right

01:56:34 did it occur to you at the time that if this

01:56:40 exercise of changing the basis of the tender as you put it came to the knowledge of the other tendering contractors the tender process and ryden's

01:56:51 the tender process and ryden's appointment as preferred bitter would be likely to be subject to a challenge

01:56:56 challenge did that occur i didn't consider that for a moment all i was i see that um a fair tender has been carried out um we bid and we were

01:57:09 um we bid and we were chosen thereafter should the client wish to

01:57:14 to make adjustments to their budget that's their volition

01:57:20 see it wasn't thereafter it's my point it was before the decision to appoint you and i just wonder whether you can shed any light on why the discussions about value engineering had taken place prior

01:57:29 prior to the 18th of march as opposed to consequent or subsequent to it

01:57:35 yeah it's at the same time as far as i'm concerned right can i ask you to look at har106

01:57:46 can i ask you to look at har106 sorry i'm so sorry har3010160 this is back to mark harris's sales stroke tender progress report that we looked at earlier and i'd

01:57:57 report that we looked at earlier and i'd like to go to page six in that document and go to uh the middle of the page next to the

01:58:03 to the words file note in capital letters there's an entry for the 2nd of april 2014 and it says simon advised via mike albuster that no decision will be made on ve until the contract has

01:58:15 be made on ve until the contract has been formally awarded to avoid other mc's main contractors being given the impression that they were not given equal opportunity to look at value engineering in the interim we've been asked to

01:58:26 in the interim we've been asked to obtain a nedzing comparison sample for comparison purposes the current exercise of obtaining alternative samples is being referred to as quotes of the design process unquote were you aware at the time that mr

01:58:37 were you aware at the time that mr lawrence was having these discussions uh no looking at the first sentence there

01:58:44 there to it says to avoid other mc's being given the impression that they were not given equal opportunity to look at ve did did these reflect internal concerns

01:58:56 did did these reflect internal concerns which had been discussed at ryden um i have no knowledge of that you have no knowledge of that

01:59:07 it seems that mr lawrence

01:59:12 was of the view looking at this that no decision would be made on ve until after the formal award of the contract be because other main contractors didn't

01:59:26 be because other main contractors didn't because as it says to avoid other main contractors being given the impression that they were not given equal opportunity to look at ve did you understand that that was the purpose behind making no decision on value

01:59:37 behind making no decision on value engineering no i didn't no i'll go back to my previous statement is that the tender was awarded on the 9.2 screen now i want to go back and

01:59:49 9.2 screen now i want to go back and look at cladding options uh can you please turn to ryd four zeros three four eight nine this is an email from katie bachelier to

02:00:02 this is an email from katie bachelier to peter madison and claire williams copy to simon lawrence and to you on the 20th of march

02:00:08 of march 2014 and it reads all further to our meeting on tuesday please find attached our summary list of value engineering options

02:00:16 options as discussed we will continue to look for further savings and identify them as we progress

02:00:22 now you got this at the time do you recall that this shows that steps were being taken during the ojeu standstill period that was referred

02:00:33 was referred to in the letter we saw the 18th of march letter which said that you were preferred bidder um yeah i don't see anything unusual with that what meeting is miss pichellio

02:00:44 with that what meeting is miss pichellio referring to

02:00:48 um what must have been the meeting at the uh

02:00:53 the uh uh at the tmi of the 18th of march i assume so yeah yeah now look at the top of the page at the first two attachments you can see that the first one is ve options 18th march 2014

02:01:05 options 18th march 2014 and the second one cladding ve options 18th march 2014. see that let's just turn to the first one

02:01:12 first one called ve options if we can that's

02:01:20 ryd403490

02:01:27 and it's entitled grenfell tower value engineering options

02:01:34 and if you look at the headings it covers a number of elements of the project and the right-hand side shows the number of savings or number of figures for savings and the bottom shows total possible savings

02:01:45 bottom shows total possible savings listed as 862 041 pounds that figures slightly more than the 800 000 pounds that mr gibson had proposed on the face of those figures do you

02:01:57 on the face of those figures do you accept that it would appear that ryden was able to find the tmo the savings

02:02:02 savings that it needed to bring the project within the revised budget

02:02:07 if the tmo um wanted to instruct them then they could save themselves that money if the tma wanted to instruct

02:02:19 that money if the tma wanted to instruct who sorry

02:02:20 who sorry us i see he said them but you mean you mean ryden do you yes yes and now let's look at the top of the document and look at the figure for cladding aluminium in lieu of

02:02:31 figure for cladding aluminium in lieu of zinc

02:02:32 zinc you can see a figure of minus 293 368 pounds

02:02:37 pounds just looking at that mr blake do you accept that therefore as at this stage ryden was confident that it could meet the tmo's target of saving 800

02:02:44 800 000 pounds including a saving of 293 368 pounds by using aluminium in lieu of zinc for the cladding

02:02:54 yes yes yeah do you yes on what calculations do you remember that was the 293 368 pounds based um i don't know now let's turn to look

02:03:06 um i don't know now let's turn to look at the other attachment ryd403491

02:03:10 ryd403491 cladding options or cladding ve options 18th of march 2014 and here we can see uh four figures

02:03:21 so you've got alternative zinc in in an alternative zinc cassette and face fixed and the relative savings there and then alternative aluminium system cassette

02:03:31 cassette saving of 293 368 which is the figure we saw a moment ago in the first document and an alternative aluminium system face fixed 376 175

02:03:44 so do we take it that that's where the figure comes from it's the cassette fix acm which is the 293 figure which we saw in the first document yeah

02:03:56 which we saw in the first document yeah yes

02:03:57 yes now both of these documents have 18th of march 2014 in the title and that's the day of the meeting we discussed earlier that we had with the tmo

02:04:05 tmo well you had the tmo to discuss value engineering do you remember whether these documents were presented to the tmo at that 18th of march meeting um i don't recall

02:04:17 um i don't recall you don't recall now we've already seen that harley sent you a document showing potential cladding savings on the 14th of march

02:04:25 of march which is four days before the 18th of march documents were produced can we please have that up alongside this document and that's ryd403316

02:04:40 i'd like to look at both documents side by side if we can so this is the the one on the left is what you're showing the tmo on the 20th of march

02:04:51 of march and the one on the right is what harley had shown you on the 14th of march and if we compare them we can look at the bottom two entries harley on the 14th of march right hand side was

02:05:03 14th of march right hand side was suggesting that the two options for acm cladding

02:05:06 cladding cassette and face fix would produce savings of 419 on thousand and 576 odd thousand respectively yes yes yes uh but you were telling the tmo

02:05:20 yes yes uh but you were telling the tmo that you could get savings on the cassette aluminium system of 293 000 as opposed to 419 000 and for face fix 376 000

02:05:31 376 000 as opposed to 576 thousand a full two hundred thousand pound difference my question is why was ryden telling the tmo that the savings which could be achieved on the switch to acm

02:05:43 achieved on the switch to acm were more than a hundred thousand pounds less than the lowest of harley's own figures

02:05:53 um change in a in a contract environment is is a way of creating margin for a contractor

02:06:04 margin for a contractor and that's what we've done here uh is that a polite way of saying that you were showing the tmo rather less by way of savings that you were getting from harley and pocketing the difference

02:06:15 from harley and pocketing the difference at that point in time yeah at that point in time

02:06:18 in time given that you would appreciate it long prior to this that the budget was a priority for the tma was it not ryden's responsibility to alert the tmo to the fact that harley has suggested far greater savings than you were

02:06:29 far greater savings than you were letting on

02:06:32 um we've made a choice to put that saving to them so

02:06:41 that's how it is that's how it is now let's look at the bottom entry in each document

02:06:46 document face fixed that is a it shows that ryden stood to make a gain of just over 200 000 pounds

02:06:55 on the difference between what harley were offering you as a saving on aluminium face fix and what you were you were passing on to ryden uh by passing on to the tmo for face fixed

02:07:06 fixed why didn't you pass that saving on directly to the tmo instead of taking some for yourself

02:07:13 because that's where it's decided to the saving to give to the client who made the decision only to pass on

02:07:25 who made the decision only to pass on 376

02:07:26 376 000 of the 576 000 to the client um i don't know but i i i'm responsible for that

02:07:35 for that so it's me and the same in relation to the aluminium cassette 293 as opposed to 419 was that you again

02:07:49 do you accept that if face fix was chosen

02:07:52 chosen ryden would in one fell swoop recover almost all of its 212 000 pound pricing error if that came to pass then possibly

02:08:06 there was the negotiations with harley to complete prior to that

02:08:13 do you accept that it was therefore in ryden's own interest to push the selection of face fixed acm panels because that was the big that was the most

02:08:25 the big that was the most obvious way for ryden to recoup its 212 thousand pound costume that that is a mechanism to do that yes yes mr chairman i've come to the end of this topic and i'm grateful for you

02:08:36 this topic and i'm grateful for you sitting

02:08:36 sitting just a little bit later i'm going to turn to a different topic and that's probably a good point of which to yes

02:08:45 right thank you well at that point mr blake will call a halt for today gonna have to ask you to come back again tomorrow i'm afraid

02:08:53 afraid for some more questions um we'll sit again at 10 o'clock tomorrow while you're away please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with the refurbishment

02:09:04 anything to do with the refurbishment okay um

02:09:05 okay um and we look forward to seeing you tomorrow morning you'd like to go with the usher now that's it thank you thank you very much

02:09:25 right thank you very much 10 o'clock

02:09:30 tomorrow

02:09:42 you