Testimony from Nabil Chukar, who lost his mother, sister, brother-in-law, and three children in the fire. Describes the chaotic emergency response, failed casualty bureau, conflicting hospital information, and systemic failures in coordination by RBKC and central government.
00:00:32 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing
00:00:36 hearing today we're going to continue hearing evidence from some of those who were directly involved in the fire and the events which occurred immediately after it
00:00:46 it yes just a minute yes good morning mr chairman good morning members of the panel i now call mr nabil chuker please thank you
00:01:05 good morning mr chuca morning i understand you're going to take the oath there should be a quran there your use yes would you take it in your right hand and read the words on the screen please i swear by allah that the evidence i
00:01:18 i swear by allah that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much would you like to sit down and make yourself comfortable
00:01:33 yes just a minute when you're ready thank you mr chairman mr good morning now i start by thanking you very much for coming here to the inquiry
00:01:41 inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely grateful to you um by way of introduction can i ask you please to keep your voice up so that the person who sits to your right and is typing can get down on the transcript
00:01:53 typing can get down on the transcript your evidence clearly um please also don't shake your head or nod your head you have to say yes or no okay um now if any of my questions are unclear or you'd like me to repeat them
00:02:04 unclear or you'd like me to repeat them or put them in a different way i can do that okay and as you probably know we'll take a break halfway through the morning just so that everybody can get a break but if you need to break it any other time we can do that too
00:02:16 time we can do that too now you've made two statements to the inquiry the first is at iws400
00:02:24 can we please have that up on the screen that's dated the
00:02:29 the 11th of september 2018
00:02:33 and is that the first page of your first statement there it is yes thank you can we please turn to page eight there's a signature there under the statement of truth is that your
00:02:44 statement of truth is that your signature it is yes thank you um can we please turn to your second statement that's at iws402365.
00:02:56 is that the first page of your second statement there it is yes thank you can we please turn to page eight in that statement
00:03:05 and you'll see there's a statement of truth in the middle of the screen with a signature underneath it above the date 28th of february 19. is that your signature it is but i just want to say uh
00:03:17 i just want to say uh i think the date of the year should be 20 rather than 19. yes thank you that i was going to ask you that so that should be 2020.
00:03:24 be 2020. uh have you had the opportunity to read both of these statements that i've just shown you recently i have yes and can you confirm that the contents of each of these statements
00:03:35 contents of each of these statements is are true yes
00:03:38 yes thank you
00:03:39 thank you now i just want to ask you one or two questions first if i may mr chuka about your your connection with grenfell tower you had a strong connection with the building didn't you because a number of your family members lived
00:03:51 a number of your family members lived there is that right that's correct and just to um just to identify them am i right that it was your sister nadia and her husband bassem who lived at flat 193 yes
00:04:04 193 yes that's correct and they had three children yes fatima and zynab yes that's correct yes and your mother syria
00:04:16 yes um lived at 191 with your other sister saw son that's correct yes now um
00:04:25 you um gave a commemoration to the inquiry on the 22nd of may 2018 for your family
00:04:33 family and you explained to us at that stage and to everybody listening
00:04:38 listening the experience that you endured as a result and are still enduring as a result of what's happened to your family and i want to make sure that we've all bear that in mind
00:04:49 sure that we've all bear that in mind when you're giving your evidence that's correct um but you'll recall that i do yes um i want just to ask you about the night of the fire i think it's right and correct me if
00:05:00 i think it's right and correct me if this isn't right that you became aware of the fire first when your sister sorson
00:05:05 sorson telephoned you on the night of the 14th of june
00:05:11 that's correct yes and i say on the night in the early hours that's right and that was i think you tell us between 2 30 and 2 40 a.m that's what you say in your first statement of
00:05:22 what you say in your first statement of paragraph 17. is that correct that's correct and you also say in the next paragraph let's have that up actually it's page 5 of the first statement paragraph 18.
00:05:37 paragraph 18 page five you say
00:05:41 you say um i tried phoning nadia but the phone just kept ringing and ringing that's right as it goes yeah
00:05:50 yeah and then i think you say you called your brother his sam to tell him what had happened and to meet me at the tower that's right yeah and i told malek to keep trying nadia and her brother bassem
00:06:01 keep trying nadia and her brother bassem you say that um should that be bassette or bassim who were inside the tower and then i left home and left nadya with our three children at home
00:06:13 children at home that's right now
00:06:16 now you you you then arrived at the tower you say i rushed down to the tower coincidentally broke my brother hissam and i both arrived about the same point in time and i parked under the westway sports centre
00:06:28 sports centre can you tell us a little bit about the scene you observed when you arrived
00:06:35 there was a court that the road had been corded and off [Music]
00:06:41 [Music] absence was going and coming fire brigade was going and coming it was like chaos so the fire the tower was a blaze
00:06:53 the fire the tower was a blaze it was just the worst nightmare you could ever ever imagine and see and where on the on the cordon were you which part which um
00:07:06 were you which part which um part of the cordon did you arrive at i arrived at um it was on bramley road i think it was at the junction of soylent road or something right and you
00:07:17 soylent road or something right and you could see the tower clearly from there i could see the tower yeah
00:07:23 did you see anyone when you arrived from rbkc or the tmo no i did not
00:07:32 what was going through your mind when you arrived at the cordon and could see the building and were trying to find your family i was
00:07:40 i was i was hoping that my family and everybody had made it out and nobody was in the tower
00:07:51 now can we go to your second statement please i just want to ask you about your search in the early hours of that morning
00:08:00 morning if we go to page four of your second statement please paragraph twenty
00:08:08 second statement that's iws four zeros five
00:08:13 five page four
00:08:19 under paragraph 20 you have a little heading which says rest centers and then you say my brother his sam and i learnt that some of the local halls
00:08:30 i learnt that some of the local halls were being opened up for displaced residents this was around the early hours of the morning roughly five to six am of the fourteenth my brother and i separated to search these centers we
00:08:41 separated to search these centers we kept hearing from people on the streets others looking for their loved ones that these centres were opening up for the residents that had been evacuated from the tower
00:08:52 so is this right that between you and your brother and sister is sam and saucon
00:08:59 saucon you in in all i think search some six rest centers looking for your family that's correct right and is it right that you were hearing about those rest centers from people
00:09:10 about those rest centers from people other people in the street a form around yes that's correct yeah so you
00:09:17 so you do i take it from that that you weren't getting any information about which these rest centers were or where they were from any official source no just from people
00:09:28 no just from people looking for their love and ones and missing on people you know right
00:09:33 right and at that time did you understand that those rest centers were official rest centers
00:09:39 centers or
00:09:40 or community-led
00:09:46 we didn't know whether they were community-led or they were official we just knew that they were being opened up for people to to be taken there
00:09:59 and how easy was it to identify and access these rest centers
00:10:11 you could access them but you know getting information was you know it was ask and wait kind of thing
00:10:23 thing but
00:10:24 but you know it was it was all panic all all over and there was a lot of
00:10:31 uncertainty right [Music]
00:10:37 and when you say uncertainty was that because you weren't sure whether to trust the
00:10:43 trust the what people in the street were telling you
00:10:45 you we didn't know where um where and where where and what time the places were open or whether the fact or the families would be in there or not
00:10:57 the families would be in there or not right
00:11:00 right and if we go to page five of your second statement
00:11:03 statement the next page paragraph 27
00:11:08 you say this under the heading response from the authorities at the foot of the screen there
00:11:14 there you say rest centers the response was a mess
00:11:17 mess even within the rest centers one minute someone was there the next minute everyone was gone as explained above there was a lack of coordination and the rest centers were often unmanned
00:11:28 often unmanned i do not recall whether there were any officials from rbkc or central government we were just looking for our loved one there was so much confusion and no arrangements or control of
00:11:39 and no arrangements or control of anything nobody knew who was where is that right you can confirm that here yes that's correct were you aware of something called a
00:11:50 were you aware of something called a friends and family assistance center having been set up no
00:11:55 no or
00:11:56 or some kind of center to provide information for people like you looking for their loved ones no no
00:12:11 we're members of the community is this how it worked essentially pulling together in these rest centers trying to offer support
00:12:27 um
00:12:30 it was just chaos uh it was just a lot of chaos as far as i remember when you got to these rest centers did you find them helpful
00:12:41 rest centers did you find them helpful in providing information about where your loved ones might be or or giving you support in any way there wasn't very much help i mean it was a lot of confusion and you know
00:12:53 it was a lot of confusion and you know it was
00:12:54 it was it was a lot of chaos going on on the day
00:12:58 day one morning should i say if we go back a page in your second statement
00:13:06 statement paragraph 23 on page four
00:13:12 um you say that we pick it up at the beginning of um
00:13:21 um paragraph 23 the the foot of page four you say the search for our loved ones after checking the centers and registering the names at the center on the morning of the 14th of june
00:13:32 the morning of the 14th of june i decided we should go to check the hospitals in case my family had been taken there and then you go on to describe you and hissam's journey through london
00:13:43 journey through london checking each of these hospitals uh why did you feel at the time that you had that you had to search for your family
00:13:51 family from hospital to hospital i believed i thought just in case they had been
00:13:58 had been they had made it out or they had been rescued
00:14:02 rescued maybe we might be able to find them in a hospital
00:14:07 hospital also
00:14:09 also so there was a chance since we wasn't we had searched everywhere else and there was no luck anywhere else we thought you know maybe that's the next step
00:14:20 step we might
00:14:22 we might be lucky to find or help fight right did you observe anybody at the rest centers getting any help for about the way
00:14:33 about the way to go about finding their loved ones who weren't there
00:14:46 um
00:14:49 well we noticed people were
00:14:54 it was it was it was chaos i mean you know they could only help with what they had or they knew who was there you know if it was helpful to them but
00:15:05 but it was just as i say a lot of chaos and it was
00:15:08 it was it was a lot of panic it was a lot of nobody knew what was going on what was happening and confusion and everything else [Music]
00:15:19 [Music] now you say in paragraphs 16 and 17 of this statement and if we go back a page we can see them on the screen
00:15:30 there they are in those two paragraphs you say that while searching hospitals you called an emergency helpline during the course of the morning of the 14th of june is that is
00:15:41 morning of the 14th of june is that is that correct that's correct yes and you say that you learned about that number between 7 a.m and 8 a.m and you tried it and i think eventually got through at about 8 30. is that right that's correct yes
00:15:54 is that right that's correct yes can you just tell us what happened when you got through
00:15:59 um we had to give they asked for the members names who they were [Music]
00:16:11 [Music] and
00:16:13 and you know what they were related to who you know who they were related to
00:16:19 the ages the date of birth etc
00:16:24 and did they tell you what they were going to do with that information
00:16:30 uh they did not tell us what they was going to do no um
00:16:37 um no i was on i was assuming that they would
00:16:40 would tell us
00:16:42 tell us once we gave the information to them they would come back or they would tell us
00:16:47 us that yeah we do have your loved ones we don't have them or we haven't you know
00:16:53 you know come across them yet or so so were you expecting them to call you back with information i did expect them to call me and to notify me and let me know um
00:17:05 know um you know if they had found our loved ones or not right
00:17:11 did they say anything to you to lead you to think that they would call you back with useful information they did not say nothing no no
00:17:22 they did not say nothing no no um you know it was more like they were taking more information from us but not giving anything or being helpful in a sense when you really wanted to
00:17:33 in a sense when you really wanted to know what was going on and have you have you heard about them have do you know about them or have they turned up in your care or you know do you have them on your list you know
00:17:45 do you have them on your list you know that's what we wanted to know but there was no even that clue you know did they tell you what the process that they were running was
00:17:56 they were running was they did not mention our process no did they tell you who was running the service
00:18:02 service or was that obvious from the helpline um
00:18:06 um you know at first you know i
00:18:11 i assumed that it was you know they was taking the information to give us you know they take the information to give us the feedback you know about our families
00:18:20 families um
00:18:22 um but then it seemed all very clear at the end
00:18:26 end you know that it was just taking information rather than giving information
00:18:40 yes and you say four lines down in paragraph 18 that they gave you a reference number and said that they would call you back did they tell you what the reference number was for um
00:18:51 um they said you know if you need um
00:18:56 it was because it's been logged you know you've made the the kind of log uh the logging kind of thing for what you've just said and we've taken it and that's that's the
00:19:08 and we've taken it and that's that's the reference number for it you go on to say i did not find the service helpful as i don't ever recall anyone calling me back in fact it was the opposite it was
00:19:19 in fact it was the opposite it was frustrating as i kept waiting for an answer waiting for an update and none came i found that it was a number for data collection rather than them phoning back with any feedbacks
00:19:30 phoning back with any feedbacks feedback as to where my family may have been
00:19:34 been how did you discover that it was a number for data collection did somebody tell you that or was that a conclusion that you drew from the fact that nobody called you back that was the conclusion i drew yes
00:19:47 that was the conclusion i drew yes because they didn't call me back you know they took the information and
00:19:51 and they didn't give us anything you know right
00:19:54 right and did they tell you how you could use the reference number that they'd given you no
00:20:05 now you say in paragraph 23 if we just scroll down to the foot of page 4 again we've looked at this a minute ago together but let's just look at it again
00:20:17 and you say and i'm summarizing tell me if this is wrong that as you continue to search the hospitals one of the key issues and problems that you and his sam your brother faced was
00:20:29 you and his sam your brother faced was that hospitals were not providing information because of what they said was confidentiality concern concerns is that right that's correct yes did they explain those concerns to you
00:20:41 did they explain those concerns to you at all
00:20:42 at all um well at the time my brother was checking the hospitals so whether they explained it to him or not but i mean we did come across um a few uh that were being very awkward
00:20:55 um a few uh that were being very awkward under the you know mention that under the data protection there wasn't given that even though it was an emergency and we told them and you know we were looking for our families or he was you know you mentioned that he was looking
00:21:07 know you mentioned that he was looking for his families
00:21:12 and if we go to page five still within paragraph 23
00:21:20 you you say
00:21:23 you say six lines down can you see that you say there
00:21:26 there we kept going around and around you say we kept going around and around at the hospitals as time progressed into the early evening in between we kept phoning them up but
00:21:37 in between we kept phoning them up but it was the same as before some could give us information and some were reluctant and didn't that that's right is it that's right some some did give us some were very
00:21:49 some some did give us some were very helpful and some weren't you know right
00:21:53 right and what did you understand what did you make of the fact that there was this difference in approach between one hospital and another about their willingness to give you information about your loved ones
00:22:05 information about your loved ones it's uh
00:22:09 you know i can understand under data protection but the fact when you have an emergency and that one one is saying something and another is saying another you know you should have one rule and
00:22:20 you know you should have one rule and one policy throughout the fact that they were being different and difficult in them in such an emergency and an exemption an assumption of uh
00:22:33 an assumption of uh circumstances where you know this was unforeseen you know you're looking for your loved one you can at least be work with it kind of thing you know
00:22:46 and be helpful right
00:22:52 do you remember whether there was any official presence at any of these hospitals such as officers from the metropolitan police or officials from rbkc providing information to those in your
00:23:04 providing information to those in your position
00:23:07 position um
00:23:09 um you mean at the cordon at the cordon hospitals oh at the hospital um i didn't ask i didn't go in to ask at in the hospital as my brother so i was
00:23:22 the hospital as my brother so i was making phone calls uh trying to find out from other hospitals yes
00:23:27 yes now speaking of phone calls we have a transcript of a call that you made to the metropolitan police on the 14th of june 2017.
00:23:36 2017. in which you're trying to find information on your missing family and i just want to look at the transcript with you if i may and it's a contemporaneous document so
00:23:48 it's a contemporaneous document so let's see how we go with it it's at m e t
00:23:51 t three zeros one four one six nine
00:23:59 uh and
00:24:05 uh as you can see from the top it's call 48 with cad
00:24:08 with cad 9827 on the 14th of june 2017. uh i'm not sure we can time the call any better than that but perhaps you can help us mr shukai it
00:24:20 but perhaps you can help us mr shukai it says operator metropolitan police how can i help hello metropolitan police and you say we've got some family visiting in audible earlier on today and i haven't heard from them
00:24:31 heard from them i've searched every hospital and i've called every center and i still haven't had any feedback from anybody could you help me please
00:24:39 and then operator right sorry who are you looking for caller my mother her and my sister and her family i reported it earlier on just a minute and then write to you guys
00:24:50 just a minute and then write to you guys and what's your name my name is nabil chuker
00:24:53 chuker okay um this is regarding the potential fire at um grenfell tower yeah grenfell tower yeah that's correct yeah okay and then you say i've i've got i've got i've dialed at the bureau number i've
00:25:05 i've dialed at the bureau number i've gone to every what you call it you know like salvation army or all these charities whatever things they're doing hostels and all that and tried every hospital no luck just just pausing
00:25:17 just just pausing that you remember roughly and i know it's difficult just looking at what i've shown you but do you remember roughly what time you made this call
00:25:27 i would assume from the from what i said it's uh after the bureau time of uh maybe
00:25:35 maybe 7 8 30 or so i would assume yes right
00:25:40 right you know i made the call to the bureau the number that was given yes so it would only uh assume that i did it at roughly after that time i see thank you
00:25:52 and um
00:25:55 yes and when you refer to the salvation army and other charities and hostels did you mean the rest sense rest centers yes yes thank you and
00:26:06 and about halfway down the page um you say um
00:26:16 just above halfway down the page the operator says and uh what are the casualty bureau said and caller they say go and check hospitals they're not very helpful i've checked all of i've checked all of the
00:26:28 checked all of i've checked all of the hospitals is that right that the casualty bureau when you rang them advised you to check the hospitals yourself
00:26:44 um i think it was no the police is the ones the bureau was just taking information uh the police were saying go and check
00:26:55 uh the police were saying go and check the hospitals you know i believe right so the police at the rest centers
00:27:04 or well i mean let me ask you this way where were the police or who were the police advising you to check the hospitals
00:27:12 hospitals uh no this is at them from the phone call of the 999 they was asking you know
00:27:19 to go and check the hospitals
00:27:23 but you know i had we had like um checked most of them and the others that were like outside or less london or some bid phoned i was phoning
00:27:34 phoning yes
00:27:35 yes and what i would just try to understand is who gave you the advice to check the hospitals i would yeah i would say that it was the police right
00:27:49 and then um
00:27:52 um sorry as in the um yeah the the police of the call of the police right so the casualty bureau not the casualty bureau no the the met police this is the call with the police
00:28:05 police this is the call with the police uh not the um uh what you call it not the met brewer right okay now looking a little further down the page um
00:28:16 down the page um you say
00:28:17 you say i've given well the operator says you'll need the casualty bureau they are the people who will take your report um obviously if you're concerned that they might have
00:28:28 you're concerned that they might have been involved they'll take as many and then you say i've given them my report twice and they still haven't contacted me
00:28:35 me then the operator says okay right okay the probably the reason the reason for that is there isn't there wouldn't be anything to contact you back with at this time
00:28:46 this time okay
00:28:50 and what will happen if they locate these the potential victims or the people you reported is missing they will then contact you back so what i would say is hold fire for the moment
00:29:01 say is hold fire for the moment and then the operator goes on if you spoke to the casualty bureau they're the people who are the ones to who are dealing with all the any sort of casualties and they are the central call the call
00:29:13 are the central call the call call department who are dealing with casualties and missing people from this incident okay and then you um give your details again and then the caller says
00:29:24 and then the caller says the hospitals after you say n and nabil caller
00:29:29 caller um
00:29:30 um the hospi inaudible hospitals are closing their lines
00:29:37 uh what did you remember what you meant by that obviously you were upset at that point but do you remember what you meant when you were telling this operator that the hospitals were closing their lines
00:29:56 um yeah there was some some numbers where i tried crawling through
00:30:04 through and the lines wasn't ringing it was literally closed it was a deadline and and so right so these are telephone lines telephone lines for the hospitals yes right i see
00:30:16 yes right i see and if we turn to page two
00:30:20 halfway down the page on page two um you've given some further details on the first part of that page and then halfway down after you can see it says mobile mobile at the top of your screen
00:30:31 mobile mobile at the top of your screen there the operator says so you've you've spoken to the casualty bureau yeah and you then say i have they said try the hospitals so it looks it looks as if the casualty
00:30:44 so it looks it looks as if the casualty bureau itself had also told you to try the hospitals at least looking at this transcript would that would that be right
00:30:56 if it's saying that i can't recall that if they said that but if you're saying it i'm assuming yes
00:31:07 i'm assuming yes and then
00:31:08 and then um
00:31:09 um the operator says all right so you've done that and then you say i tried the hospitals i've tried every single one some of them are then putting me straight through to casualty bureau but i've put the casualty bureau again
00:31:20 but i've put the casualty bureau again i've spoke to hospitals try again and again nobody nobody
00:31:25 they take my name they say they'll contact me some take my name and say they contact me some say they're not here you know we're trying and trying i've gone and visited every single one okay more than 12 hospitals
00:31:36 single one okay more than 12 hospitals in london
00:31:38 in london all right and you've left your details with the casualty bureau yeah i have yes so so it
00:31:45 so so it given that at this point you've visited more than 12 hospitals would it be right in thinking this is actually sometime a little bit later in the morning on the 14th yes oscar yes
00:31:59 and then if you go to page three there's the two care of this transcript about
00:32:06 about um
00:32:11 about a third of the way down the page now about just below halfway down your screen um you say i just wish somebody would inform us more you know maybe they've been taken
00:32:22 more you know maybe they've been taken somewhere else and they haven't been told maybe that i don't know you know they've been alex allocated by the council i don't know i'm there's so much missing i don't know what to say you know it's it doesn't seem very clear to
00:32:33 know it's it doesn't seem very clear to me you know um yeah i see uh before i start thinking of the inevitable without knowing
00:32:44 and then yeah if earned the bill as you say you've spoken to all the hospitals and they haven't got them then then that's going to be our answer they're not there and then you say yeah but they could have brought someone in without they
00:32:56 have brought someone in without they were with an oxygen mask and not reported who he is unclear unregistered i mean it was just looking at that was it is it right to say that one of the key problems for you on
00:33:08 that one of the key problems for you on that morning was that just the absence of any
00:33:12 of any not just the absence of any information but the absence of any information about how to get information about your loved ones it was yeah it was very very unclear it
00:33:24 it was yeah it was very very unclear it was very
00:33:25 was very [Music]
00:33:26 [Music] it was so unorganized it was you know you would think uh in a situation
00:33:33 situation in
00:33:34 in an emergency in catastrophe there is some sort of plans some sort of organization but it there was
00:33:46 organization but it there was it was just everything was just falling apart and it was just so unorganized it was
00:33:52 was it was so unhelpful um you know it was like we were trying forever
00:34:00 but with no help you know with no clear sense of
00:34:04 sense of help or exactly what you know we wanted to hear or know
00:34:11 yes and if we turn to page four in this transcript
00:34:18 uh the operator says and i know i'm jumping ahead a little bit here but the operator says what you've done the bill you've done the right thing if you've contacted the casualty bureau
00:34:31 if you've contacted the casualty bureau they've taken your details they will inform you if they find anyone at hospital or worst case scenario deceased
00:34:38 deceased at the block they will con they will contact you and then they will guide you in the process of what will happen next regarding the potential identification of whether they're at the hospital or at the scene
00:34:49 they're at the hospital or at the scene okay
00:34:51 okay and you say right okay no problem all right that's fine operator okay nabil obviously i'm really sorry yeah yeah obviously that obviously has been a very troublesome time and
00:35:01 and something from you which is inaudible and then the operator says i really i can't even begin to understand how you must be going through but please be assured um that we that there are
00:35:13 assured um that we that there are processes in place which we are trying to follow
00:35:16 to follow and i do apologize if it hasn't been explained to you properly or if you haven't been informed properly and then the call ends with polite exchanges but is that is that
00:35:28 polite exchanges but is that is that right does that reflect your experience that that even if there were processes in place
00:35:34 in place um nobody had explained them to you properly or at all even if there was process there's not the fact that nobody explained them we wasn't even getting the help all the
00:35:45 wasn't even getting the help all the information that we wanted you know it was totally [Music]
00:35:52 [Music] it was the worst service ever you know everything that could go wrong went wrong and you know it was very unhelpful
00:36:03 now looking ahead from the 14th of june to the the few days that followed i think it's right isn't it that
00:36:10 it that your search for your family continued in the week after the fire yes [Applause]
00:36:22 yes sorry yes and if we go to your first statement again we can go to that please iws401069
00:36:32 let's go to page seven paragraph 31. and you say there the preceding days became more and more painful as the reality began to sink in but we still did not give up hope
00:36:47 did you get any further information or any help about how to get further information during those days
00:36:58 um no
00:37:01 no no we were left to in early days we were left to ourselves
00:37:07 ourselves to make
00:37:10 to help ourselves and do what we can do whatever whatever way possible to try and find
00:37:17 and find whatever we can about our families
00:37:23 i just want to ask you then about flos family liaison officers can we then go to your second statement again please and go to page five paragraph 25 again
00:37:43 and you say
00:37:47 this is day three 16th of june 2017 we picked up posters and used them on the 16th of june i gave news interviews with my brother hissam on that day and we held the posters up
00:37:59 and we held the posters up i think that was the day we spoke to the police and met up with them 16th stroke 17th june they said that they had been trying to call us i don't actually recall where they came to see us they
00:38:10 recall where they came to see us they said they had tried to contact us by telephone but we weren't available so they left messages i checked at the end of the day and noticed that the police had tried to contact me there were so many missed calls
00:38:20 calls they explained their role and gave us a brief description of their purpose i think it was heather and ashley they said that they would tell us everything do the work that we would liaise with them and that they would be
00:38:31 liaise with them and that they would be there for any help to update us and to keep informed we were always phoning them for updates and asking for any news they said they would be our flos and they would keep us informed they did
00:38:42 they would keep us informed they did keep in contact but only disclosed what they were told to it seemed the police knew a lot more than what we would be told i've expanded on this in paragraph 30 below
00:38:54 now
00:38:57 your brother in his second witness statement paragraph 147 i don't need to show it to you he says that he doesn't remember the flows coming to your house in that first week
00:39:09 coming to your house in that first week all the police making contact with him
00:39:13 with him uh all the family during
00:39:16 during the week the first few days after the fire that that's his recollection is that the same as your recollection or do you have a different recollection i have a different recollection because i was told
00:39:27 was told they came to visit um
00:39:31 um me at my address [Music]
00:39:36 [Music] but obviously i think we was doing we was doing interviews on the day with news and everything when they had done it so are you reasonably confident looking
00:39:48 so are you reasonably confident looking back on it that the flas did
00:39:51 did contact you in the first week after the fire within that week yes uh they said they tried
00:40:01 tried and they did leave messages yes yes did you find the fla is helpful and responsive to your needs when you did speak to them
00:40:13 um yes and no uh i can elabor you uh do you want to elaborate on that yes um in my statement
00:40:25 they would inform us when
00:40:30 they had something but they wouldn't inform us
00:40:34 inform us exactly what for example they would tell us we've come across remains
00:40:41 remains now remains we did not know what remains was was it one body part was it many body parts we tried to understand what is remains
00:40:52 we tried to understand what is remains you know and and as i've mentioned in my statement um you know they came across they mentioned six remains and we did not know
00:41:03 and we did not know what
00:41:04 what remains was was it six body parts or six family members or six what you know we tried to find that from them and they didn't know themselves and it was a bit
00:41:15 didn't know themselves and it was a bit of
00:41:16 of unclarity uh there was a confusion it was you know it wasn't very helpful and did that process the discussion about
00:41:26 about about remains begin with the flas during the week after the fire or was it at a later stage i think it was in a later stage
00:41:38 i think it was in a later stage it was a later stage i believe on [Music]
00:41:42 [Music] as far as i remember i think it was a later stage during the first week after the fire do you remember whether you had any contact at all
00:41:51 at all with or from rbkc
00:41:59 after the first week did you say within the first week
00:42:05 i don't think so what about the tmo any contact with them
00:42:13 i don't think so as far as i know it was i think more to do with flows rather than anything else and what about central government
00:42:25 and what about central government not that i remember
00:42:30 now you tell us if we go on please to page seven of this statement
00:42:39 paragraph 32
00:42:42 that you have received bereavement counselling and health and well-being therapy
00:42:51 were you aware of that type of support being available to you during the first week of the fire after the fire
00:43:02 i was not aware because we were still looking for our loved ones that's what we was really concentrating and that's what we was focused that was the most
00:43:14 that was the most and only important thing you know that came
00:43:17 came and was important to us were you aware whether any support like that psychosocial support counseling health and wellbeing therapy was available generally
00:43:28 available generally during that period
00:43:31 period the week after the fire
00:43:39 not that i recall no i wasn't aware because as i say um the most important was finding our family
00:43:53 do you have any any general comments you'd like to tell the panel about about the emergency relief response on the part of central government or rbkc or the tmo perhaps
00:44:07 rbkc or the tmo perhaps in that first week
00:44:11 um it's just how unorganized they was at
00:44:18 at especially on the day of the fire you know that when i was trying to find my family
00:44:29 my family and asking about them and i was pushing to try and get in to rescue them i was uh
00:44:37 i was uh threatened with like if you do that again you'll be arrested and i found that at the time so hard and so
00:44:45 so hurtful and you know here i am here we are trying to get to our family and rescue them and we're being threatened with arrests or
00:44:56 arrests or there was no help with the fact of you know
00:45:01 you know you know
00:45:03 you know we've got our loved ones maybe in the tower you know we just want to know some information you know please just help us and
00:45:11 and they wasn't interested they didn't well you know here we got sergeant here we got the commissioner or whoever you know is in charge come and have a look at him speak to him
00:45:22 speak to him and um he'll help you and guide you there was none of that you know it was literally
00:45:32 it was it was terrible it was you know it was such awful awful bad service you know um it was so very unhelpful and you know
00:45:44 you know in in such a in such a awkward time you know
00:45:51 and what looking back on it do you think should have been done differently in that immediate aftermath to support you and people like you looking for their loved ones
00:46:02 their loved ones there should have been more help there should have been more help given there should have been more it should have been more organized it should have been more coordinated it should have been you know you've lost a loved one come please
00:46:13 know you've lost a loved one come please step inside we need to know more about them where are they you know not just over a phone call and yeah you know there was none of that organization we was
00:46:23 was left to fend for ourselves left to try and find help and you know
00:46:30 you know anything and everything it was just
00:46:34 just you had to do what what you can do and make do with what you you knew kind of thing you know and that shouldn't be the case of when there is an emergency you know it
00:46:45 when there is an emergency you know it should have been all coordinated and worked out and you know it was disorder there was this chaos it was you know like everyone running around with their hats off
00:46:57 around with their hats off as in it was so unorganized there was nobody knew what they were doing you know so
00:47:03 know so it was terrible it was
00:47:07 say the least you know did you did you i d did you see anybody wearing a an rbkc badge or tabard
00:47:17 tabard like a slip that they put over their shoulders to say who they were at any stage during that week no i did not see anyone you know i was just looking
00:47:28 i was just looking and trying to concentrate for my family at the time [Music]
00:47:35 and if you look down
00:47:40 please to page seven
00:47:53 uh sorry i'm so sorry can we get your first statement i apologize iws 401069
00:48:00 401069 page seven
00:48:04 um a paragraph 34 at the foot of your screen
00:48:10 screen you say this this has devastated our lives as more than half of our family have now died
00:48:17 died life will never be the same and it is hard to accept the pain and suffering is unbearable i don't know if i can ever come to terms and accept what has happened with this
00:48:28 and accept what has happened with this ordeal as the family that we loved and they loved us have gone i don't wish this ever
00:48:35 this ever to happen to anybody else i'm seeking rehabilitation as a result of what i saw on the night of the fire as i will never be the same again
00:48:47 is there anything further
00:48:54 mr chico is there anything further that you'd like to say to the panel about the impact of the fire on your life or anything else more generally
00:49:10 he has totally destroyed
00:49:14 our lives
00:49:18 i wouldn't want anyone to go through what we're going through i would
00:49:23 i would gladly swap my shoes to be
00:49:30 in a position where i'm not going through what i'm going through what we're all having to go through losing our loved ones
00:49:44 um
00:49:48 our lives will never be the same ever again has destroyed our families
00:49:59 rehabilitation and
00:50:05 it's very hard it's very you know it's had a big effect on us and
00:50:15 yeah
00:50:18 i just don't want anyone to go through what we're going through and what we've had to go through [Music]
00:50:30 um those are all the prepared questions i had for you um but i'm going to ask the chairman to take a break now to see if there's anything that i've missed or that others would like me to put to you
00:50:42 would like me to put to you mr chairman can we do that yes i think we we need to do that and i think it would be sensible to combine that with the morning break so we'll stop now we'll come back please
00:50:54 so we'll stop now we'll come back please at quarter past 11 and uh
00:50:59 and uh while you're out of the room i have to ask you as i have all the other witnesses not to talk about your evidence to anyone else all right and when you come back a quarter past 11 we'll see if there are any more questions we need to ask you
00:51:11 any more questions we need to ask you all right
00:51:12 all right thank you would you like to give the asha please thank you
00:51:27 thank you mr millet quad fast eleven please
01:07:39 would you ask mr sugar to come back in please okay
01:07:57 all right mr sugar thank you yes mr millet thank you mr chairman um mr sugar i have no further questions for you other than one and that is whether you would like to add anything further
01:08:08 you would like to add anything further to the evidence that you've given in your two statements and that you've very helpfully given us this morning um yes there is quite a few things i would like to add
01:08:18 um the first thing
01:08:22 is that um
01:08:27 it's been a hell of a journey you know that what we're having to go through and what we're going through um it's been forced on to us what we're having to go through
01:08:40 you can't imagine what we're going through
01:08:43 through and you know like i said i wouldn't want it on upon anyone else second is um
01:08:54 in order to get into the inquiry i was refused the first time in phase one three times i asked to
01:09:05 i asked to have a say and i was refused and wasn't allowed
01:09:09 allowed and that shouldn't be the case where one
01:09:14 one once
01:09:15 once as a core participant needs to have say something and um
01:09:23 and um it should be a lot more simple and simplified um
01:09:29 um that's one of the things
01:09:33 the other thing is um
01:09:40 on the night in phase one on the night of
01:09:44 of the fire
01:09:46 the fire um
01:09:47 um we asked
01:09:49 we asked we was asked you know what they would like to see as part of the terms of reference
01:09:54 reference and we mentioned helicopter um and this wasn't uh it was taken into consideration but it wasn't
01:10:06 fully elaborated in phase one where the transcripts were read into the inquiry because on the nights my family
01:10:17 on the nights my family and many other families relied on the helicopter and um
01:10:33 they was hoping that they would be rescued
01:10:37 rescued and
01:10:39 and i had
01:10:40 i had a few questions i wanted to ask the helicopter pilots who was not available which i was hoping they would be
01:10:51 which i was hoping they would be available and that was that they were part of the terms of reference but i never got to ans ask the helicopter pilots the transcripts were
01:11:02 helicopter pilots the transcripts were read into the inquiry so i never got to and like many other families never got to ask the pilots the questions
01:11:13 questions so we find that we felt left out and lost
01:11:17 lost for
01:11:18 for because it's not something that you ask the questions to your solicitor
01:11:25 it's it's based upon their reports and what they say um
01:11:32 um that you ask the questions and at the time there was questions i wanted asked about the pilot and
01:11:42 and never got the chance to because
01:11:46 because it was read into the inquiry so you know we felt i felt very let down in that sense
01:12:01 the final thing is
01:12:05 part of terms of reference um when they asked and they was inquiring what would you like to see as part of the terms of restaurants
01:12:16 restaurants you know we mentioned helicopters a lot of people mentioned helicopters a lot of people because they couldn't understand why people was going up and down and
01:12:25 down and not going out when they should have been going when they were lower at the lower ground they were going up rather than you know which we got to find out and understand more later on why this was happening
01:12:37 happening but
01:12:38 but you know we you know we asked to really you know because it was on the night of what happened
01:12:45 happened the helicopter but we also asked for institutional discrimination to be looked at
01:12:51 looked at and
01:12:53 and it's not institutional or discrimination when you're looking into discrimination in a report or from what they have say but looking into and examining it
01:13:04 examining it so that you can come and fully understand what people were saying who lived in the tower
01:13:13 tower our loved ones what they was fighting for and understand how they were treated to really understand and you know this was a crucial part
01:13:25 was a crucial part that
01:13:26 that should have been part of the terms of reference we had qc mr imran khan who asked the
01:13:40 who asked yourselves to look into institutional discrimination and it didn't happen then we had mr leslie thomason
01:13:51 then we had mr leslie thomason who asked for institutional discrimination to be looked in because it plays a vital role
01:13:59 role for what happened
01:14:03 mr chairman and panel members i who work with many family members
01:14:11 who have lost and we represent our families most of them who died on the night are asking you or please
01:14:22 or please to really look into institutional discrimination not to come out with
01:14:30 um
01:14:34 a report but really to examine it as a part of the term of reference this is the only chance where we have
01:14:44 we have to really fully examine what went wrong and what was going on and what was happening not to come out with recommendation from the complaints that was given from family members and so but
01:14:56 was given from family members and so but really to examine it the same way how we are being how we are cross
01:15:02 cross referencing uh lachna house and looking back and saying
01:15:08 saying oh if they had sorted they are all out at the time then grenfell wouldn't happen if we have another catastrophe they will look back at grenfell towers inquiry and say well you
01:15:21 grenfell towers inquiry and say well you know you had these recommendations and that was it that can't be the case so i'm asking
01:15:34 it's the chairman and panel members that you really please look into it and have it
01:15:40 it thoroughly investigated that this is a crucial part to our families to have some closure for them to give them some justice
01:15:52 for them to give them some justice recommendations are sometimes not always implemented and not always done so that's why we need to have institutional discrimination looked at
01:16:04 institutional discrimination looked at as a
01:16:11 part of the terms of reference we was told that recommendations can be terms of reference terms of reference can be changed
01:16:22 terms of reference can be changed and
01:16:23 and can be changed later on whether that is true or not i'm
01:16:29 i'm and many family members are asking you all to relook at it and investigate it properly
01:16:37 properly it's the only chance we have
01:16:41 we have so we cannot come back and
01:16:47 have another inquiry when something goes wrong catastrophe another catastrophe goes wrong and say that well you know you should have looked at lac
01:16:58 you know you should have looked at lac in the house so you don't have so grandpa wouldn't have happened but if another catastrophe happens you don't look back at and coinform and be blamed for it
01:17:06 for it and say well you should have done that recommendation not just a recommendation but you should have already examined it we can't have that we can't go back and keep questioning and keep going back and
01:17:17 keep questioning and keep going back and blaming why you should have done that it has to be done and it has to be done properly
01:17:24 properly so i'm asking you please to reconsider and to re-look at it so we can have some justice please thank you
01:17:36 mr chuca thank you very much for that and for all your evidence it just remains for me to express our gratitude as an inquiry to you for coming here today and giving us your evidence so thank you very much
01:17:49 your evidence so thank you very much yes and mr shukai i want to thank you very much on behalf of not just myself but all three members of the panel for coming here and giving us your account of things i think we all understand how
01:18:00 understand how difficult it's been for you to do that and
01:18:03 and we're sorry to hear how difficult things still are for you and other members of your family so we're very grateful to you for coming along and it's been very helpful to hear from you thank you thank you very much indeed
01:18:15 you thank you thank you very much indeed would you like to go with the usher thank you thank you
01:18:30 yes it's just a minute yes um mr chairman there's now going to be some reading in of um evidence and this islam is going to continue the reading that she paused with um in the week thank you before we
01:18:44 with um in the week thank you before we started hearing or in the middle of hearing the oral evidence and then there'll be some further material that you will also read in what i would suggest is that rather than you rising now and then coming back in three minutes i vacate the spot for her
01:18:56 three minutes i vacate the spot for her and swap over yes if you don't mind of course they will sit here happily while you do that thank you
01:19:11 um
01:19:34 [Applause]
01:19:43 [Music]
01:19:54 yes with sizzling now you're going to continue the reading that you started the other day is that right i am and before i do that mr chairman members of the panel can i make one correction
01:20:05 the panel can i make one correction when i was reading from the summary of evidence on the last occasion i was reading from an extract from the statement of david lewis and i said that he was visiting his ex-wife mariko
01:20:16 he was visiting his ex-wife mariko toyoshima lewis and their two children i should have said their three children can i please apologize for that error thank you
01:20:25 thank you and before i begin the reading can i reiterate the trigger warning from the last occasion some may find hearing about their experiences and the experiences of others in the immediate
01:20:36 experiences of others in the immediate aftermath as distressing if anybody would wish to leave the room or pause the live stream please do so now
01:20:48 mr chairman members of the panel you'll remember that we had eight sections and i managed to complete six out of those eight i'm now going to turn to section seven dealing with the observations on
01:20:59 seven dealing with the observations on the response a number of witnesses have made observations about the adequacy of the emergency relief response particularly in relation to overarching leadership
01:21:10 in relation to overarching leadership and coordination of support peter john murphy says there was no central structure no central body taking charge and no leadership
01:21:21 leadership no one seemed to be working together nothing was getting done and it just felt like
01:21:26 felt like responsibility kept on being passed around in a never-ending circle charlotte mcmahon says i found the coordination of central government rbkc
01:21:37 coordination of central government rbkc and the tmo in the immediate aftermath of the fire to be non-existent they were nowhere to be seen they were silent they were impossible to contact and had
01:21:48 they were impossible to contact and had no knowledge when i did speak to them simon jolly says on the ground no one was visibly taking control of or responsibility for coordinating the
01:22:00 or responsibility for coordinating the relief effort there were so many helpful sites and hubs which volunteers had set up but they had no means of easily communicating with each other in the immediate aftermath
01:22:12 immediate aftermath some witnesses comment on their interaction with the prime minister at the time
01:22:17 the time manuel miguel ferreira alves says the government did not support us in the immediate aftermath of the fire i thought that things would change after theresa may's apology and her promise to
01:22:29 theresa may's apology and her promise to re-house us in three weeks but it all turned out to be a lie highway to dagenhachew lived in flat 26 and says
01:22:38 and says even the prime minister when she visited avoided seeing the survivors as though we were contagious it is beyond comprehension and shows a complete lack of responsibility
01:22:50 complete lack of responsibility compassion and a complete failure of duty
01:22:55 duty emma o'connor lived in flat 171 and says it was disappointing that theresa may failed to meet with the bereaved and survivors in the days following the fire i was invited to attend ten downing
01:23:08 i was invited to attend ten downing street a couple of months after the fire however when we attended she was out of the country i felt we were treated with contempt
01:23:16 contempt contrastingly nicholas burton describes attending a meeting with the prime minister at saint clements church on friday the 16th of june he says
01:23:27 friday the 16th of june he says i just got swept into that friday meeting without really knowing what was going on
01:23:31 going on people were shouting outside during the meeting because the community was angry that she had not come earlier and met with those affected i could see why people were unhappy about the way she responded on 15th of
01:23:43 about the way she responded on 15th of june but for my own part she seemed sincere and moved when she listened to me talk about my experience jason miller comments on his interaction
01:23:54 jason miller comments on his interaction with nick heard who was the minister of state for policing and the fire service at the time he says
01:24:01 he says i was speaking to nick hurd and he was not paying attention to what i was saying
01:24:05 saying i felt like he was more of a mouthpiece for rbkc
01:24:09 for rbkc i had the impression that he was there to sponge information from us while keeping an ear open for any points of interest
01:24:16 interest to central government and rbkc as they also had staff present in that meeting rashida ali describes the meeting at the rugby club approximately four days after
01:24:27 rugby club approximately four days after the fire where members of government attended
01:24:30 attended she says
01:24:31 she says the members of government that were taking our information broke down while we were telling them about our situation the government was simply not equipped to deal with this level of tragedy they
01:24:42 to deal with this level of tragedy they just did not know what to do edward defan who lived in flat 134 describes meeting andrea ledson then leader of the house of commons at the rugby portobello club on 16th of june he
01:24:55 rugby portobello club on 16th of june he says this was the first time i was aware that anyone from central government had spoken to anyone at the rpt at the meeting i explained that the fire was preventable i requested that central government need
01:25:07 i requested that central government need to send someone with resources and responsibility to the rpt to take control because nobody was taking control from the emergency services central or local government
01:25:19 central or local government there is further detail on what we discussed in emails that followed sent to andrea on the 17th of june with a follow-up on the 22nd of june 2017 led some had assured us that she would
01:25:30 led some had assured us that she would respond to our requests however the emails show that she didn't shaheen saddafi attended a meeting of gold command at the westway center on 19th of june 2017
01:25:43 19th of june 2017 with government representatives in attendance including elena kelly hillary patel from dclg and others from the cabinet office he says
01:25:53 he says i sat and listened for over an hour as leaders from charities such as red cross introduced themselves and explained what they were doing as i listened i became more and more concerned as it was all so irrelevant
01:26:06 concerned as it was all so irrelevant and it seemed nobody had any clear sense of priority or leadership or sense of urgency
01:26:13 urgency i felt many in the room were overwhelmed by the number of people affected and they were all clear that the local council and central government were not doing enough he continues
01:26:24 he continues finally i stood up and explained that i was trying to find my neighbors and loved ones from the tower i asked for help they simply said no this isn't possible
01:26:35 they simply said no this isn't possible data protection laws don't allow it i felt abandoned these people were supposed to be there to help but they felt like they were against us they did not make me feel safer but
01:26:46 they did not make me feel safer but seemed like adversaries the officials did not care that was how it felt and i just could not understand their attitude in relation to the meeting at the westway center he continues
01:26:58 westway center he continues looking at the meeting as the only grenfell resident it appeared they were caught in the headlights and simply did not know how to behave or show any empathy for what people were going
01:27:10 empathy for what people were going through
01:27:11 through i appreciate honesty and if officials such as these are so disconnected from the people they are to serve then they should remove themselves from such an important responsibility
01:27:22 important responsibility i felt as if they were hiding behind policies and protocols and yet had no real idea of what was going on or what to do
01:27:30 to do i explained to the meeting i've just lost my home my neighbours and i've been listening to you for two hours introducing yourselves and explaining how ill-prepared and incapable local and
01:27:42 how ill-prepared and incapable local and central government has been there is no sense of priority i was amazed that government leaders and those that are supposed to plan for major disasters could be so poorly organized and show so
01:27:54 could be so poorly organized and show so little leadership particular concerns have been expressed about the absence of rbkc in the immediate aftermath and their failure to offer support
01:28:06 offer support ines alves who lived in flat 105 says i do not think that rbkc were prepared to respond to what happened but the community was also not prepared and yet
01:28:17 community was also not prepared and yet somehow they managed to provide support faster than our bkc was able to rbkc should have been quicker if the community were able to act why couldn't they
01:28:29 they david andrew benjamin says there was a difficult dynamic with many people blaming rbkc for the fire yet they were now supposed to be supporting those affected
01:28:39 affected there was a lot of anger and upset over rbkc's invisibility and lack of action immediately after the fire lyanne meyer jackson leblanc says
01:28:51 lyanne meyer jackson leblanc says rbkc should have offered a lot more help sending social workers and key workers was a cop-out existing members of the council even council managers should have been sent
01:29:02 council managers should have been sent out not to random key workers the people that had been in the offices with knowledge of the estate and the community before the fire should have been more involved they sent people from
01:29:14 been more involved they sent people from outside of the area which caused delay and confusion and doubt which was avoidable
01:29:20 avoidable she goes on to describe the first seven days
01:29:23 days as like hell on earth i didn't know who to speak to where to go or what to do muhammad hariri says rbkc left us to struggle and struggle
01:29:35 rbkc left us to struggle and struggle and didn't ever let us feel safe especially after the fire
01:29:41 elizabeth serbia's jack says there would frequently be representatives of rbkc stationed in the lounge of the hotel we had lost faith in them from early on
01:29:52 had lost faith in them from early on anyway because they were useless and couldn't even deliver their promises and they couldn't answer anything we ended up having to beg them and it took such a long time and we just felt disregarded again
01:30:06 says no one from rbkc or the tmo reached out to me in the first seven days or even a few months after the fire we as a family did not hear from them it was like they
01:30:17 did not hear from them it was like they were hiding away from bereaved families even though some people had lost everything and needed help they disappeared from us i expected rbkc and the tmo to reach out
01:30:29 i expected rbkc and the tmo to reach out to offer assurance and support and give us information about where to go to get support and help on how to look for hashem
01:30:36 hashem without this support we had to do things ourselves this placed added stress on us a number of witnesses share concerns about the culture within rbkc and how
01:30:48 about the culture within rbkc and how this manifested in the emergency relief response benazir lashari who was an rbkc labour councillor at the time of the fire says
01:30:57 fire says the council were completely incompetent at managing the crisis there was no procedure in place it was all chaos i think that the community are seen by
01:31:08 i think that the community are seen by the council and the tmo are simply poor working-class people in need of social housing and that we should just be grateful for any and all the help we get it feels like we are looked down upon by
01:31:20 it feels like we are looked down upon by the government and the council thomasina hessel says there was a real sense of us and them between the authorities and the community at that time
01:31:32 community at that time i remember that it seemed like everybody came to north kent kensington to support us
01:31:37 us but what we didn't have was the council there for us there were services available eventually but what people were but what people were there from the council were there in such small numbers that we didn't
01:31:48 in such small numbers that we didn't notice them we later found out that council staff were deployed but told to hide their id for their own safety this illustrates how the council perceived residents as dangerous and a
01:32:00 perceived residents as dangerous and a threat
01:32:01 threat they didn't make their presence felt i can't tell you what they did in the first seven days i understand why rbkc told their staff not to wear council clothes but this
01:32:12 not to wear council clothes but this reinforced the perception that they just didn't care this says a lot about them and it was this kind of lack of leadership that trickled down from the leader of the council nicholas padgett brown and
01:32:25 council nicholas padgett brown and robert black of the tmo down to the staff on the ground the leadership has since been replaced but a lot of the staff are the same the culture hasn't changed if you're not able to see things through
01:32:37 if you're not able to see things through through other people's eyes then you shouldn't be in that role zakaria elsawi says my overwhelming feeling is that the response to the grenfell tragedy lacked continuity
01:32:50 grenfell tragedy lacked continuity responsibility and above all accountability from our landlords rbkc tmo and other relevant authorities information was very slow and
01:33:01 information was very slow and inconsistent and services would be available one day and not the next we would also have to keep explaining ourselves to the people allocated to assist us as they came and went
01:33:12 assist us as they came and went this unlike before made us feel like we didn't matter and didn't deserve to be treated with dignity this has caused my physical and mental health to decline significantly at a
01:33:23 health to decline significantly at a time when i needed recovery and a space to mourn the loss of those that have passed away in the tragedy i will never forget the actions of those responsible and will not forgive them
01:33:35 responsible and will not forgive them for this
01:33:37 for this sabide mene moradam says rbkc did not care about us after the fire and in fact at times they were rude and dismissive i had to get what i needed by force or
01:33:50 i had to get what i needed by force or by fight and indeed when i asked for certain things they told me that they were doing enough and they didn't have to do these things for me this perfectly sums up the attitude of the council
01:34:02 sums up the attitude of the council hisham shabika lived in grenfell walk he says when i would go to the council to ask for support they would always make me feel like i was begging it was humiliating
01:34:15 it was humiliating farhad nader says we as survivors had no access to those high up in leadership i remember rbkc organized a meeting but i was shocked to find out we were we
01:34:27 i was shocked to find out we were we were only allowed into the gallery area of the town hall but the meeting was about us
01:34:32 about us i was initially refused entry as the gallery was already full i was shocked to see that most of those who had been let in were not even residents of the tower
01:34:43 residents of the tower ismail hadgay lived in testerton walk he says the rbkc have such power that no one will take action and the tmo were protected through rbkc
01:34:55 protected through rbkc we used to complain not just me but the hundreds of people in the community around grenfell i think there is a feeling of discrimination of being underprivileged
01:35:06 discrimination of being underprivileged in terms of the tmo benazir lashari says overall the tmo were extremely deficient i think a lot of the problems came from the fact that they ignored residents
01:35:18 the fact that they ignored residents i had known this from some time and experienced it firsthand and it is why i became a counselor and eventually deputy mayor i wanted to try and change the way the tmo and rbkc was run particularly in
01:35:31 the tmo and rbkc was run particularly in the way they related and communicated with local people jessica gomez says rbkc tmo they were very slow i was angry about how long it took them to come
01:35:43 about how long it took them to come forward they were nowhere to be found their approach was very corporate very posh they are not the sort of people to come and talk to us i think they got that feedback we did
01:35:54 i think they got that feedback we did not feel supported tmo disappeared giuseppe raza says during the immediate aftermath of the fire i never saw anyone from the tmo they were invisible
01:36:06 from the tmo they were invisible otman ben kawula says the tmo were not there immediately after the fire they should have been the first on the scene at the aftermath with support and services to care for the residents
01:36:17 services to care for the residents the fact that they had no plan or organizational structure to keep residents informed only contributed to the chaos on the scene the tmo were unprepared for this
01:36:28 the tmo were unprepared for this emergency
01:36:29 emergency i never saw the tmo after the fire perhaps they feel guilty about the fire turning now to the observations on the community response a number of witnesses praised the response of the community
01:36:41 praised the response of the community and charities jaime heymannot gashaw says i feel it was the charities and other similar organizations who were the ones who seemed to take on the role of
01:36:52 who seemed to take on the role of helping survivors rather than the government and rbkc who should have been responsible the charities appeared organised especially considering the short time scale that they undertook the task of
01:37:03 scale that they undertook the task of assisting survivors the charities were there from the very beginning unlike the government and rbkc rauda syed says it was the voluntary organizations
01:37:14 it was the voluntary organizations charities and faith centers that were the first to step up to help survivors of the fire rbkc and central government were conspicuous by their absence
01:37:25 conspicuous by their absence one of the problems was that they did not have access to the information held by local and central government in terms of those who were resident in the tower those in hospital and the ability to id
01:37:36 those in hospital and the ability to id people
01:37:37 people however despite this the voluntary organizations charities and faith centers dealt with us and other survivors with compassion and were as organized as could be as could as could
01:37:49 organized as could be as could as could be expected giuseppe raza says the support that came from all of the charities and community groups was overwhelming it was more than enough and great to see
01:38:01 enough and great to see they provided a lot of food and water provisions places to stay during the night and more mariam abdulkadir yusuf lived in flat 121
01:38:11 121 she says i think the voluntary and community groups were excellent and i was overwhelmed by their generosity and kindness
01:38:18 kindness it has made us want to be more charitable and help those in need michael sebias jack says the generosity of the volunteers and charities never went unnoticed
01:38:30 charities never went unnoticed it was breathtaking you really see the amazing spirit of people in the aftermath of such a tragedy turning now to the last section dealing with impact a number of witnesses shared
01:38:43 with impact a number of witnesses shared their experiences on the impact of the fire
01:38:47 fire and the impact that that had on their lives
01:38:50 lives jennifer quang says the grenfell tower fire has had a huge impact on me and my family and on other residents in the community it has put an immense strain on our
01:39:01 it has put an immense strain on our personal and working lives as well as our physical and mental health
01:39:06 health at times this has been copiously overwhelming and i sincerely hope that we will all recover from this and it won't hurt us for the rest of our lives although it is easier to believe that
01:39:17 although it is easier to believe that this may have brought some families and the community closer together it has actually torn some apart i feel that the trauma experienced by those affected is often
01:39:28 those affected is often under-appreciated and forgotten in the system
01:39:31 system and it hurts to think that children around the area may always hang on to this suffering antonio roncallato says the horrifying events from 14th of june
01:39:43 the horrifying events from 14th of june 2017
01:39:44 2017 will always stay with me the fire has turned my sun and my lives upside down many times over there has not been a single day since the fire where i have not had to deal with
01:39:56 where i have not had to deal with something connected to it it is difficult to put into words the pain
01:40:01 pain upset and distress that the fire has had upon my son and me i feel guilty that my son had to watch the tower burn whilst i was still inside and that others did not make it out
01:40:13 and that others did not make it out alive
01:40:15 umar al-hajj ali says the trauma of the loss of my brother muhammad the fire and the aftermath of the fire have affected me mentally and physically
01:40:26 physically i lost my home and i lost my beloved brother muhammad and i moved to the uk from syria to be safe elsa afawaki says
01:40:37 elsa afawaki says the fire at grenfell tower had a huge impact on my life and being in a hotel prolonged the traumatic experience i still feel the impact and i'm only now beginning to come to terms with some
01:40:49 beginning to come to terms with some aspects of what happened ursia gambhi says i feel broken in pieces i have changed so much in my mental state and physical health
01:41:00 state and physical health i keep working but i just don't function as i used to i'm trying to find myself again but it's hard
01:41:07 hard the grief is overwhelming for all of us philip king a herstway walk resident says
01:41:15 says the night of the fire chained changed me as a person and i feel as though i am living in the shadow of the tower it is the centerpiece of my community
01:41:24 community and i have to walk past it every day seeing it takes me straight back to the night of the fire and i feel like i am experiencing it all over again
01:41:36 experiencing it all over again marlene anderson anderson says this tragedy has left my family with the enormous task of trying to repair and rebuild our lives
01:41:47 and rebuild our lives my father should never have lost his life in the way in which he did he was taken from us and the memory of how my dad lost his life will remain with me forever
01:41:58 life will remain with me forever my dad was a loving caring and gentle soul he opened his door to many others on the night of the fire which is testament to his giving supportive nature
01:42:10 his giving supportive nature my dad lived in grenfell tower for over 30 years of his life the tower was his home his sanctuary and where he sought solace
01:42:23 to the bereaved survivors and residents we thank you for your courage in sharing your experiences which have been at the heart of this inquiry mr chairman members of the panel that
01:42:34 mr chairman members of the panel that concludes the evidence to be read from the bsr for module 4. thank you very much mr islam i think there may be other matters to read is that right that is i'm now going
01:42:46 read is that right that is i'm now going to read
01:42:47 to read a summary of evidence from the community voluntary and faith sectors right thank you very much
01:43:00 there was a significant spontaneous community response in the immediate aftermath of the grenfell tower fire as part of the inquiry's investigations we have spoken to 28 individuals who are
01:43:12 we have spoken to 28 individuals who are involved with the community at voluntary and faith sector response this has shaped the development of this stream of evidence and the inquiry has received 24 witness statements relating to this area the evidence provides an
01:43:25 to this area the evidence provides an overview of the emergency relief response offered by a number of key organizations that were involved in the immediate aftermath in due course we will hear live evidence from the british red cross and from two
01:43:37 from the british red cross and from two community leaders who set up spontaneous rest centres we will be taking a thematic approach to the evidence to be read and addressing the following three themes
01:43:48 the following three themes firstly the community response secondly observations on the official response and lastly challenges faced and lessons learned
01:43:59 turning to the community response first a number of organizations in the vicinity of grenfell tower became heavily involved in the provision of emergency relief on 14th of june and in
01:44:11 emergency relief on 14th of june and in the days and weeks that followed abdul rahman said is the ceo of the al-manah muslim cultural heritage center in the immediate aftermath of the fire almanac opened its doors and offered
01:44:24 almanac opened its doors and offered shelter and sanctuary to all those affected
01:44:27 affected the response included the provision of food water and the distribution of donations including financial donations through the national zakat foundation and the rugby portobello trust
01:44:39 and the rugby portobello trust as the fire occurred during ramadan al-manar was already catering for approximately 300 people every evening this increased to approximately 600 people per day after the fire
01:44:51 people per day after the fire almana later facilitated a number of services included including counselling art therapy and survivors groups abdulrahman saeed says he was told about
01:45:02 abdulrahman saeed says he was told about the fire by a member of staff in the early hours he says i immediately instructed him to open our doors to anyone who needed help and i put out a whatsapp message informing our
01:45:14 put out a whatsapp message informing our network that al-manar was open to assist to assist survivors by the early morning some residents from the tower and surrounding accommodation blocks had arrived at the scene
01:45:25 blocks had arrived at the scene at one point there were approximately 100 people in the center the staff and volunteers first actions were to make food and water available to those who needed it
01:45:36 needed it in describing their response he says almanac quickly became the center of efforts to support the local community given the fact that almanac is located some distance from grenfell it is
01:45:47 some distance from grenfell it is significant that it became a hub for those seeking help as well as for those wishing to volunteer their time to support the work of the center almanac was well known within the local
01:45:58 almanac was well known within the local muslim community as a place of compassion that would offer help and support
01:46:04 support he continues had it not been for the support of the local community those volunteering and the generous donations we would not have been able to support the survivors and residents in the way
01:46:15 the survivors and residents in the way that we did father gerard skinner is the catholic parish priest of notting hill the saint francis of assisi catholic church offered a variety of support to
01:46:26 church offered a variety of support to those affected including food and drink spiritual and emotional support services practical assistance such as mobile phone charges and the distribution of financial and physical donations
01:46:39 financial and physical donations he says that volunteers began arriving at saint francis assisi church at 9 00 am on the 14th of june and the church closed at midnight he says over the course of the next two
01:46:51 he says over the course of the next two days circa 170 volunteers assisted at various times and in various ways thousands of donations of every kind arrived continually for the first two
01:47:03 arrived continually for the first two days
01:47:05 days children brought new toys adults wheeled suitcases of clothes and toiletries locals were offering accommodation financial donations were also received all of which have been dispersed to
01:47:16 all of which have been dispersed to former residents of grenfell tower and bereaved families from the disaster in describing the volunteer effort he says the volunteers were from everywhere of all ages and backgrounds taking a
01:47:28 of all ages and backgrounds taking a lead with sorting donations organizing their distribution and using social media to disseminate information for those who needed help and for those who wanted to help
01:47:39 wanted to help our volunteers formed human chains to move boxes of donations such was the outpouring of compassion and the horror at the tragedy that had befallen so many people simply came
01:47:50 befallen so many people simply came together as one united by the need to help
01:47:55 help reverend michael long is the minister at notting hill methodist church the church provided a base for emergency relief in the first few days following the fire
01:48:04 the fire they were particularly involved in the provision of clothes and toiletries to those from the walkways and grenfell walk
01:48:11 walk the ascension trust provided a team of emergency response pastors to the church who assisted in listening to people and calming the atmosphere additionally the church assisted people
01:48:23 additionally the church assisted people with making copies of missing posters for those looking for their loved ones reverend michael long praises the response of spontaneous volunteers he says
01:48:33 says during wednesday to saturday many volunteers worked in the church sorting goods attending to residents from the walkways who were in need and generally helping out a few particularly dedicated volunteers
01:48:46 a few particularly dedicated volunteers coordinated emergency clothing communications storage warehousing and transportation of donated goods under significant pressure and i remain immensely grateful to them
01:48:58 and i remain immensely grateful to them volunteers managed to organize themselves and the operation into sections and the operation was incredibly smooth considering few people knew each other volunteers showed immense initiative and
01:49:10 volunteers showed immense initiative and resourcefulness there was a very intense focus to concentrate on the immediate issues and decisions which were made collaborative collaboratively but also very quickly
01:49:21 collaboratively but also very quickly volunteers compiled spreadsheets of volunteer names skills such as languages spoken or practical skills that we might need and also contact details jackie blunchflower was the leader of
01:49:33 jackie blunchflower was the leader of the latimer community church at the time of the fire the church provided a safe space refreshments and support for people to talk to a muslim prayer room was set up within the church for those observing
01:49:45 within the church for those observing ramadan they initiated a memorial wall where people left messages and flowers which became a focal point for the community
01:49:54 community in describing the latimer community church's role she says we had a different role to some of the other places that were offering support partly because of our location people flowed through us
01:50:06 flowed through us early on we made the decision that we did not need to provide beds as we understood these would be available at the westway sports centre and that other community centres were making provision
01:50:17 community centres were making provision we supported some of the bereaved survivors and members of the local community as well as those coming from outside the area to help alison norman worked for everyone active
01:50:28 alison norman worked for everyone active through their contract with the westway trust she oversaw the management of the westway sports centre in the immediate aftermath
01:50:36 aftermath the westway sports centre started as a spontaneous rest center and later became the official rest center she says we agreed that we would open the doors to the sports centre to assist
01:50:48 the doors to the sports centre to assist with any residents who may have been displaced by the fire or anything else we could do to assist i didn't have any contact with the council initially this was much later that day around 6 pm
01:51:00 was much later that day around 6 pm she continues i went on to the streets around the center and into latimer road church which was overrun with residents to tell residents that the sports centre was
01:51:11 residents that the sports centre was open and we were serving drinks food offering showers and a safe space for those affected adrian clee from the salvation army was asked to take the lead role in the
01:51:23 asked to take the lead role in the response to the grenfell tower fire the salvation army is part of the overall voluntary community sector response in london and sits on the voluntary community sector panel which is part of the london resilience forum
01:51:36 is part of the london resilience forum he says that the local authority made a request for the salvation army church center on portobello road to be open as a place of safety on the 14th of june as the two nearby centers being used were
01:51:48 the two nearby centers being used were being accessed by the press he says the center was used in that capacity to give safety and emotional support to a group of around 30 people
01:51:59 support to a group of around 30 people until partway through thursday the 15th of june when activities to support those individuals were consolidated back into the westway centre the salvation army in notting hill is an integral part of the
01:52:10 notting hill is an integral part of the local community and continued to provide emotional and practical support to those who approached us in the days and months following the fire additionally the salvation army was
01:52:22 additionally the salvation army was asked by rbkc to assist with the sorting and distributing of new donated goods they repurposed an empty salvation army building and for four weeks after the fire sorted those donations and
01:52:34 fire sorted those donations and delivered them to the westway centre turning now to observations of the official response in respect of the response and support
01:52:45 in respect of the response and support of rbkc
01:52:46 of rbkc abdul haman saeed of almanar mosque says on the third day of the fire we received a visit from some rbkc councillors during that meeting i explained to the
01:52:57 during that meeting i explained to the councillors that we were struggling to cope with the numbers of persons who had become reliant on almanac the logistical demands of receiving and dispersing the larger volume of clothing and other donations and coordinating activities of
01:53:10 donations and coordinating activities of volunteers i asked the councillors to liaise with the rbkc in order to assist the coordination of activities within almanac we received no such support
01:53:21 almanac we received no such support he goes on to say that one week after the fire the rbkc family services unit set up a stall in one of our halls to assist grenfell residents with issues
01:53:32 assist grenfell residents with issues regarding housing and other services this constituted the only official presence at almanar in the weeks following the fire in the weeks after the fire he continues in the immediate aftermath
01:53:45 he continues in the immediate aftermath of the fire we received no assistance or support from central government in respect to the tmo he says we receive no support or assistance from the tmo after the fire or since
01:53:57 after the fire or since in the weeks following the fire abdul rahman sayed describes being asked to be involved with official meetings attended by representatives of central government rbkc the fire brigade and senior police
01:54:10 rbkc the fire brigade and senior police officers
01:54:11 officers he says
01:54:12 he says the representatives of central government rbkc and the police were utterly under prepared and unable to answer questions put to them or address
01:54:23 answer questions put to them or address in a meaningful way the concerns of residents
01:54:26 residents many of whom were left with the sense that central and local government simply did not care he continues in my opinion these meetings exposed the
01:54:38 in my opinion these meetings exposed the catastrophic failure of central and local governments to plan and execute a response to an event like grenfell jackie blanchflower of latimer community
01:54:49 jackie blanchflower of latimer community church says i do remember seeing some individual people i recognized from the council and tmo nicholas padgett brown was there at one stage he seemed detached from the
01:55:00 stage he seemed detached from the situation and i am not sure if this was because he was in a state of complete trauma and shock or if he was just there to see that as an organization receiving funding from rbkc we were dealing with a
01:55:12 funding from rbkc we were dealing with a disaster appropriately it was bizarre he was just standing at the entrance to our building
01:55:19 building judith blakeman also came i know her well as she is a strong she is a long-standing local councillor who has been involved in community issues i know that other labour councillors did come
01:55:30 that other labour councillors did come and visit but they were not there as part of an official response as far as i could tell she continues i was expecting that at some stage someone official would come and tell me
01:55:42 someone official would come and tell me what to do in the afternoon at about 4 p.m i think it was a pastor at the notting hill community church who gave me the number for the rbkc control room
01:55:53 for the rbkc control room i rang to ask what rbkc wanted us to do the response was that they had the westway sports center open and so everyone should just go there they asked us to shut at 9pm that day to get people
01:56:04 us to shut at 9pm that day to get people off the streets i thought this at least was sensible and so we closed as requested probably by about 10 p.m next morning i called the control room
01:56:15 next morning i called the control room again the woman i spoke with told me that we did not need to do anything and did not need to open the church up as everyone could go to the westway sports centre
01:56:24 centre she simply said that there was no need for us to be open it was as though i was speaking to someone who had no idea at all what was going on this was quite early in the morning and we already had
01:56:35 early in the morning and we already had a room full of distressed people there were people who needed help everywhere i told her we would be open and did not bother trying to contact them again by thursday morning i thought there
01:56:47 by thursday morning i thought there would be a plan and anticipated that there would be some sort of briefing but they still hadn't happened and in fact never did
01:56:55 never did she continues in the first few days after the fire we received no real help from the authorities no one from local government offered meaningful assistance until friday the 16th of june when two
01:57:08 until friday the 16th of june when two helpful people from the council turned up and asked if if we needed any assistance with the storage of donated items however by this stage we had already sourced alternative storage
01:57:19 already sourced alternative storage it felt as though there was a time lag and that the authorities were always behind events offering help after it was really needed father gerard skinner says memories of
01:57:31 father gerard skinner says memories of council involvement are sketchy not least because there did not seem to be any coherent emergency plan or if there was one it seemed not to have been activated
01:57:42 activated councillors were certainly walking around the area in groups including the two councillors for norland ward and visited but my only memory of any attempt at organization was a council
01:57:53 attempt at organization was a council worker who was trying his best to communicate and get answers to questions such as how to handle offers of a comic accommodation how to distribute or send into storage donations what services
01:58:05 into storage donations what services were being organized for victims and where they were based but the gentleman was not able to provide answers to these questions despite trying to make contact with rbkc
01:58:16 with rbkc rev michael long says the first few days were a chaotic fog in which little reliable information was available
01:58:24 available it was astonishing that in the midst of so much distress and need there appeared to be no overall coordination of provision other than for the survivors at the westway center it was fine it was
01:58:36 at the westway center it was fine it was hard to find out information about those who were injured or missing in terms of official support made available to the westway sports centre alison norman says
01:58:48 alison norman says i don't recall any support being offered in the initial hours or first day after the first visit by the tmo in the mid-afternoon rbkc arrived early evening
01:58:59 mid-afternoon rbkc arrived early evening to give us an update on what was happening and to discuss the possibility of keeping the centre open overnight which of course we were expecting to do anyway
01:59:09 anyway there was some presence by the tmo and rbkc from early evening they started to work with us to try and coordinate the center but the reality was this took a few days it felt like we were on our own
01:59:21 few days it felt like we were on our own until that point in terms of when the westway center was designated the official rest center alice norman says i think it was a few days after the fire
01:59:33 i think it was a few days after the fire i was informed by rbkc that's what would be happening i was not involved in any consultation i was happy to support where we could but it was a huge strain on my team physically and emotionally
01:59:45 on my team physically and emotionally and felt a bit bulldozered at that time at times but it was a difficult situation for all i was desperate for my team to have a break but this was not possible i never felt that the sports centre was
01:59:57 i never felt that the sports centre was the right location for those who had been bereaved or traumatized and raised this point on a number of occasions she continues i don't think the sleeping arrangements were at all suitable
02:00:11 arrangements were at all suitable no consideration seemed to have been given to the trauma that residents had been through residents were sleeping on mats and donated mattresses in the tennis hall floor it was upsetting
02:00:24 floor it was upsetting in respect to the management of the center she says rbkc had a rotor of cover along with other authorities some were better than others sometimes it felt like we were
02:00:35 others sometimes it felt like we were going backwards when authorities changed over duty she continues about the coordination and leadership of the center and says initially the leadership and coordination was appalling but after a
02:00:48 coordination was appalling but after a few days things improved one particular concern that she raises was not having enough staff or expertise
02:00:58 valerie patterson was the head of learning and skills at the westway trust although the westway trust was not responsible for the management of the sports centre which was sub let everyone
02:01:09 sports centre which was sub let everyone active the westway trust offered support to the local community in the days and months that followed the fire she raises concerns about the lack of clarity about what support was available
02:01:21 clarity about what support was available she says there was no one that was making clear what people were entitled to when individuals turned up unless they were quite forceful some were not receiving the necessary support
02:01:33 receiving the necessary support there were a number of cases that needed strong advocacy we became aware of people sleeping in cars or in local gardens and our worker supported them to access support
02:01:45 access support she raises concerns about some of the processes at the westway center some of the staff were very empathetic but others were not and the experience for deeply traumatized people could feel
02:01:57 for deeply traumatized people could feel like a purely bureaucratic form-filling process
02:02:01 process some people went over and beyond but others were very matter-of-fact there was an over-reliance on emailing for example one person who had lost five people was told to send an email when
02:02:13 people was told to send an email when what was really needed was for someone to sit with that person listen and perhaps work with him to send the email she continues the westway trust received no direct
02:02:25 the westway trust received no direct support from central or local government nor from the tmo it took significant time before any level of coordination was set up local organizations and local residents
02:02:36 local organizations and local residents were able to respond on the ground quickly
02:02:39 quickly this helped in terms of the immediate relief however there was no central communication and coordination which led to considerable confusion for bereaved and survivors
02:02:51 and survivors dr alan everett was the vicar of saint clement nottingdale and saint james norland he says at no point in those first few days was i aware of any significant coordination
02:03:03 i aware of any significant coordination from central government rbkc and the tmo those traumatized by the fire were badly failed
02:03:11 failed turning now to the key challenges that were experienced and lessons to be learned a number of witnesses say that their organization did not have a pre-agreed plan with rbkc in the event
02:03:24 pre-agreed plan with rbkc in the event of an emergency nor were they aware of rbkc's emergency plan jackie blanchflower from the latimer community church says a major question that remains in my mind
02:03:37 a major question that remains in my mind is what was the disaster response plan i always thought there must be a plan given that there is a terrorist threat in this city i assumed that someone must
02:03:48 in this city i assumed that someone must have thought about the response to a major event like this however it quickly became clear that there was no contingency planning that covered anything of this scale i look back and i wonder whether as the
02:04:01 i look back and i wonder whether as the leader at a community centre i should have been contacting the council before the fire to ask what the plan was but i assumed that they would contact us if they thought we might be needed as part
02:04:12 they thought we might be needed as part of a disaster response a serious but small scale incident a few years before had led to the police using our building to provide support to local residents affected
02:04:23 residents affected so it was clearly not that we were an unknown organization it was this that i found particularly hard i was waiting for someone to tell me what to do expecting to be a part of a coordinated
02:04:36 expecting to be a part of a coordinated plan but instead we were left to try and support people as best we could with what resources we could gather similarly father gerard skinner says
02:04:47 similarly father gerard skinner says that the emergency response of saint francis assisi church was not part of the official response we became involved as part of the spontaneous outpouring of compassion as
02:04:58 spontaneous outpouring of compassion as we wanted to help in any way that we could we had no pre-existing plan or agreement with rbkc for emergencies such as the grenfell tower fire witnesses also reflect on the need for a
02:05:09 witnesses also reflect on the need for a disaster management plan that is properly rehearsed alison norman from everyone active says there should be a rehearsed response to major disasters
02:05:20 major disasters one agency should coordinate there should be a documented plan that can be adapted it took too long for a council response to emerge the red cross should have been engaged instantly they told me they can't unless
02:05:33 instantly they told me they can't unless instructed to do so in these situations reverend mark o'donoghue the area dean of kensington at the time of the fire describes the meeting with community leaders on the 20th of june and says
02:05:47 leaders on the 20th of june and says i tried calmly to explain that the difficulty was that a disaster response response plan had not been created by rbkc for anything more than a bus crash on the high street and that the
02:05:59 on the high street and that the community organizations had not been consulted
02:06:02 consulted on any such disaster response plan in such a disaster it was always the community groups as on this occasion who opened their doors and turned on their kettles and began offering relief and so
02:06:15 kettles and began offering relief and so going forward it would be a benefit to our bkc to involve the community groups witnesses emphasize the need for personnel involved in emergency response to be properly trained
02:06:28 to be properly trained valerie patterson from the westway trust says
02:06:32 says workers were brought in from other areas of the council or different boroughs that would have had very different roles in their substantive post they were put in a very difficult position when supporting traumatized
02:06:44 position when supporting traumatized bereaved and survivors and neither neither they nor bereaved and survivors benefited from this position there should be designated emergency
02:06:55 there should be designated emergency support personnel identified in every council to step in for emergencies to ensure those affected receive an empathetic appropriate response
02:07:06 empathetic appropriate response adrian clee from the salvation army describes there being one individual from rbkc who was sent to the salvation army on portobello road he says
02:07:17 army on portobello road he says the individual centre long had no training or experience of rest centers or emergency support and was clearly totally out of her depth she was unable to give a lead or to
02:07:28 she was unable to give a lead or to answer any questions we had she also struggled to readily link us to anyone else within the local authority who could answer important questions i.e was any accommodation being arranged for
02:07:40 was any accommodation being arranged for those who were at our center and who had been displaced by the fire he continues talking about the availability of trained personnel to take the lead at rest centers and says
02:07:52 take the lead at rest centers and says in terms of a learning going forward i would reflect that this needs to be a priority for situations where it may be the case that more than one rest center is required
02:08:03 is required there was a lack of information relating to support services available and an absence of information for the bereaved father gerard skinner says the biggest organizational challenge was discovering
02:08:15 organizational challenge was discovering from official sources what services were available to help us help those who most needed help and communicating with other relief centers
02:08:25 centers the second biggest challenge was the sheer volume of donations that poured into the church and parish center a further great challenge was discovering contact details of bereaved
02:08:36 discovering contact details of bereaved relatives to offer support jackie blanche flower says when i arrived latimer was packed with a whole mixture of people
02:08:47 whole mixture of people some were survivors others were people searching for loved ones as well as local residents who were shocked and appalled by what they had witnessed witnessed it was particularly distressing that people could not access
02:08:59 distressing that people could not access information about who had come from the tower so they were searching not knowing if their loved ones were still in the fire in hospital or safe somewhere in the early period after the fire it
02:09:11 in the early period after the fire it was very difficult to know where to go and look for people who were missing we were struggling to get accurate information ourselves about which community centres churches and other
02:09:22 community centres churches and other faith groups were providing support what information we did have was all obtained through word of mouth and the situation was constantly changing it seemed as if the emergency services had
02:09:34 seemed as if the emergency services had not set up an immediate place of refuge and that the council spent so long setting up the westway sports centre as a relief center that by the time it opened many people had already dispersed
02:09:47 opened many people had already dispersed in those first few hours people were left to find help for themselves as the authorities were slow to respond to their immediate needs to fill the gap they turned to the
02:09:58 to fill the gap they turned to the voluntary and faith sector and to organizations they trusted or were directed towards by those out in the street watching events unfold in terms of what may have assisted
02:10:10 in terms of what may have assisted jackie blunchflower says someone from the council should have come on the first morning to assess what was happening and then briefed us and other organizations accordingly it
02:10:21 other organizations accordingly it seemed clear to me that the authorities can access support and information in a more coherent and coordinated way and so could have provided strategic input early on
02:10:32 early on instead chaos ensued and the voluntary and faith sector as well as individual volunteers stepped up to fill the gap
02:10:43 volunteers stepped up to fill the gap witnesses say that there is a need for better coordination and oversight jackie blanchflower said in relation to this the lack of official involvement and oversight in the first day led to a
02:10:54 oversight in the first day led to a power vacuum which was i think very unhelpful for the community and its recovery
02:11:00 recovery it is important that people are are directly involved in the relief effort but proper coordination and oversight is vital as no one was taking control it was anarchic and many people did
02:11:12 it was anarchic and many people did things spontaneously following their own initiative in the short term this was fine but the long-term consequences were sometimes not so beneficial i am not an expert and it is complicated
02:11:25 i am not an expert and it is complicated but while it is vital that the authorities engage with and listen to the community it is also very important that there is direction to the work that is done
02:11:36 direction to the work that is done there was so much more that could have been done by the authorities better planning and a more prompt and coordinated response could have mitigated more of the effects of the disaster than the hands-off approach
02:11:47 disaster than the hands-off approach that we witnessed she also reflects on the need for organizations on the ground to be coordinating with each other she says initially there was a disconnection
02:11:58 initially there was a disconnection between the various centers offering emergency provision one thing we found particularly helpful was when an individual on their own initiative went round to the various centers involved in the relief work and
02:12:10 centers involved in the relief work and made sure that each center knew about the others and ensured that we all had each other's contact numbers this was brilliant as it enabled us to better understand what was available elsewhere
02:12:21 understand what was available elsewhere and to work in a more coordinated way it was just one guy on a bike but it was the most effective external coordination that we received as brilliant as it was that he did this
02:12:33 as brilliant as it was that he did this i would have thought that there should have been a central or local government plan in place even before the fire happened so that voluntary agencies could be involved in an appropriate and
02:12:45 could be involved in an appropriate and coordinated way i felt that our disaster response was powered by whatsapp and post-it notes
02:12:54 reverend michael long says what we needed and i expected was a visible presence of rbkc staff to provide clarity of information principally and be a point of
02:13:06 principally and be a point of communication secondarily although some rbkc councillors were present in the streets by the church in the first few days what was required was something far more tangible and visible
02:13:18 tangible and visible people wearing identifying insignia or high fizz jackets equipped with notebooks clipboards communication with others etc without this we felt abandoned without
02:13:30 without this we felt abandoned without information and support at no stage should anyone approach us in any official capacity to ask what we were doing if we needed support or assistance
02:13:42 saeed describes the importance of recognizing the needs of diverse communities he says on 14th of june 2017 al-manaf found
02:13:53 on 14th of june 2017 al-manaf found itself at the center of a relief effort for bereaved and traumatized families and residents we were unprepared for the human tragedy that arrived at our doors on the morning
02:14:04 that arrived at our doors on the morning of the fire and in the days and weeks that followed i am proud of the fact that with our limited resources we managed to ameliorate some of the suffering i wish we could have done more
02:14:16 we could have done more i share the frustration of many in the community who feel that both central and local government were absent at a time when they were needed most the support that came was often too little and too
02:14:28 that came was often too little and too late
02:14:29 late whilst i recognized that grenfell was a tragedy of catastrophic proportions more could have been done to prepare for and meet the obvious and immediate needs of displaced residents and those
02:14:41 of displaced residents and those affected
02:14:42 affected there should have been better coordination between central and local government and those organizations on the ground such as almanac that were immediately that were addressing immediate needs of residents
02:14:55 immediate needs of residents at the center of the grenfell tragedy is a community diverse in terms of religion ethnicity and culture there was a failure by central and local government to recognize that such communities might
02:15:08 to recognize that such communities might react differently to other communities when faced with such acute adversity a failure to recognize the importance of religious and cultural norms within those communities and a failure to
02:15:20 those communities and a failure to recognize the resources that were available within the community including adopting a community-led response to the tragedy
02:15:29 tragedy he also highlights wider cultural needs and says
02:15:33 and says the need for a counselling service became apparent in the week after the fire when some parents expressed concern about the emotional well-being of their children
02:15:43 children it became apparent that there was an absence of faith and culturally sensitive counselling available to these families particularly having regard to the diversity of the communities and the
02:15:54 the diversity of the communities and the variety of languages spoken within the community
02:15:58 community andrew langford was the lead major incident responder for cruise bereavement care at the time of the fire he says that whilst the overall response to the incident improved during the
02:16:11 to the incident improved during the humanitarian assistance group meeting on the 20th of june 2017 upon reflection the response to the incident was a general one and there was no overt indication of the group taking
02:16:23 no overt indication of the group taking into account any issues relating to equality diversity and inclusion in retrospect this could have been cited and a specific analysis undertaken
02:16:34 and a specific analysis undertaken relating to the specific needs of prevalent groups
02:16:39 andrew langford describes that initially cruz was not invited into the humanitarian assistance center the westway center until they spoke to the lead responder at the british red cross
02:16:51 lead responder at the british red cross he says
02:16:52 he says this meant that people were not able to access the traumatizing support that our organization could and has in the past provided as a response to other major
02:17:03 provided as a response to other major incidents including 77 911 the borough market attack in 2017 and also the manchester bombing in 2017. he says there was a distinct lack of
02:17:15 he says there was a distinct lack of psychological support immediately following the incident for those directly involved the focus was very much on catering for immediate physical needs which is entirely understandable
02:17:27 needs which is entirely understandable however if more engagement with the voluntary sector and statutory health resources took place sooner this could have further minimized the negative psychological impact to those affected
02:17:39 psychological impact to those affected furthermore there was variable support for the key link workers involved in supporting those affected by the fire crews offered such support in the humanitarian assistance group meeting on
02:17:52 humanitarian assistance group meeting on the 20th of june however this was not taken up
02:17:57 taken up more short-term psychological interventions de-traumatizing and debriefing could have could have contributed to minimizing immediate distress and the impact of traumatic memories that
02:18:09 impact of traumatic memories that surfaced later on he continues the understanding of the full psychological impact of an incident such as the grenfell tower fire needs to be more fully understood and held by local
02:18:21 more fully understood and held by local authorities commissioning services to support people following a major incident
02:18:27 incident some brief support could have been provided by crews and other organizations to those most affected it is our considered belief that this would have reduced the amount of trauma
02:18:38 would have reduced the amount of trauma experienced later that we saw emerging at the friends and family assistance center some weeks after the incident
02:18:48 a number of witnesses describe how the numbers of volunteers and volume of donations presented a challenge abdul rahman saeed says in the immediate aftermath of the fire we were contacted
02:19:00 aftermath of the fire we were contacted by many people who wanted to volunteer their time supporting the work of the there were numerous volunteers but we did not have the capacity or the time to log details due to being overwhelmed
02:19:12 log details due to being overwhelmed with the needs of the community and the need to meet those needs many of the volunteers were persons from outside of the community this raised obvious safeguarding concerns particularly given those volunteers were
02:19:25 particularly given those volunteers were in contact with children and vulnerable adults however without their support almana would not have been able to provide the support it did in the critical days after the fire
02:19:36 critical days after the fire jackie blanchflower says one conclusion i would draw is that as an organization it is really helpful when you have volunteers that you already know it was very helpful when other churches
02:19:47 it was very helpful when other churches contacted us with people who wanted to help because we knew that any volunteers they provided would come with a degree of pre-vetting and so we could accept them with a higher degree of trust
02:19:59 them with a higher degree of trust that is not to say that ordinary spontaneous volunteers were not very useful at times there needs to be a whole piece of public education on responding to a disaster in terms of effective
02:20:11 disaster in terms of effective volunteering and appropriate donations the public outpouring of grief and shock is really important and i would not dismiss how important it is that people are involved but there are unintended
02:20:24 are involved but there are unintended consequences donations are important but there are specific things that were needed and not just general second-hand things we had the logistical problem of storing items
02:20:35 the logistical problem of storing items and then getting rid of unsuitable donations
02:20:40 andrew langford highlights the importance of utilizing the voluntary sector and local community groups referring to the humanitarian assistance group meetings he says
02:20:51 group meetings he says the early coordination meetings on the 15th 16th and 17th of june 2017 seemed to demonstrate that there was an unsureness on the part of the local authority as to what the official
02:21:03 authority as to what the official voluntary sector partners and the wider community could offer in terms of support
02:21:08 support a clear understanding of what the voluntary sector could offer at an earlier stage by the local authority would have in cruz's view hastened further support to people affected by
02:21:19 further support to people affected by the incident there needed to be more of an understanding about how the voluntary sector could be utilized in order to assist the relief effort further understanding of how local
02:21:30 further understanding of how local authorities can engage local community groups and resources will be useful there was much capacity to support people affected through local community groups
02:21:40 groups however there seems to be no links between the local authority and those community groups in north in the north kensington area it would have been beneficial for there to be a protocol or mutual aid agreement
02:21:53 to be a protocol or mutual aid agreement in place between community organizations to support should there be such an event
02:22:01 luke jonathan miller is the archdeacon of london as well as resilience lead for the diocese of london he is a member of the london resilience forum and chair of the faith sector panel
02:22:12 panel he says
02:22:14 he says curating relationships before you need them and ensuring that there are good lit local links increases community resilience very considerably building into the protocols for a
02:22:25 building into the protocols for a strategic coordination group that the faith and belief sector should be engaged and ensuring it is also drawn into the humanitarian assistance in the recovery phase is important
02:22:36 recovery phase is important the faith and belief sector can be effectively supported by a regional and local government but its inherently bottom-up devolved and diverse nature means that it cannot easily be managed
02:22:47 means that it cannot easily be managed through policies procedures or uniform methods of working it is above all about relationships at each level of the life of our communities
02:22:58 communities adrian clee from the salvation army says one key gap prior to 2017 was the level of engagement with the voluntary community sector at a local resilience
02:23:11 community sector at a local resilience forum and local authority level some local resilience forums were heavily engaged with their voluntary community sector partners with strong relationships mutual understanding and
02:23:22 relationships mutual understanding and genuine partnership working in responses to major incidents other local resilience forums were very much content to pay lip service to the role of the voluntary community sector with
02:23:34 of the voluntary community sector with the role of non-professionals being very much an afterthought the various tragic events in 2017 have made a difference to the engagement with the voluntary community sector
02:23:46 with the voluntary community sector by statutory partners which will be helpful in future emergencies but there is still some way to go before this approach is across the board and the voluntary community sector is truly
02:23:57 voluntary community sector is truly viewed as a trusted partner he continues in terms of learning for the voluntary community sector itself there has been genuine reflection and action with regard to bridging the gap
02:24:09 action with regard to bridging the gap between the response from the main voluntary community sector national responding charities such as the red cross and salvation army and the myriad of support available from local churches
02:24:22 of support available from local churches faith and community groups i believe that the civil contingencies act needs to be strengthened to make it a requirement for category one responders local resilience forums to involve the
02:24:34 local resilience forums to involve the voluntary community sector in their emergency planning and exercising the act currently set just says they must pay due regard to the voluntary sector and the role that it can play in
02:24:46 sector and the role that it can play in responding to emergencies as a result there is not a consistent approach across the country within local resilience forums or local authorities
02:24:57 resilience forums or local authorities some are examples of best practice in terms of engagement some are very poor the voluntary community sector itself can continue to advocate for more engagement but unless involvement in the
02:25:09 engagement but unless involvement in the local resilience forums and local authority emergency planning process is mandated there will continue to be an inconsistent picture across the country
02:25:20 inconsistent picture across the country he states the need the need for much more of a person-centered rather than task-orientated approach to the humanitarian aspects of an emergency
02:25:31 the humanitarian aspects of an emergency response is key as is having full as is having a full as full an understanding of the richness diversity capacity and characteristics of
02:25:43 capacity and characteristics of whichever community has been affected these elements are firmly embedded in the voluntary community sector approach to responding to future major incidents
02:25:54 to responding to future major incidents turning lastly to final reflections
02:25:59 reverend marco donaghy says amidst the anguish anxiety and suffering on that first day there were some remarkably encouraging signs
02:26:10 remarkably encouraging signs many have remarked on the phenomenal outpouring of compassion in the days following the fire churches gurudwaras mosques and synagogues including my friends at almanar mosque
02:26:22 including my friends at almanar mosque and the holland park synagogue and also other community groups such as the harrow club and their rugby portobello trust threw open their doors to help those affected nor was the compassion confined to the
02:26:35 nor was the compassion confined to the community of kensington people came from all over london and across the uk arrived with offers of help and supplies it is hard for local churches and faith
02:26:47 it is hard for local churches and faith groups
02:26:48 groups to feel like we can do much to lift the burden of grief in tragedies such as grenfell
02:26:54 grenfell but we committed to walk alongside the community of north kensington to pray with them and for them and to share their burden as best we could we were equally committed to being
02:27:05 we were equally committed to being critical friends of those in power seeking honest answers and a transparent process that keeps the survivors and the community at the heart of it holding all to fulfill their promises and seeking
02:27:18 to fulfill their promises and seeking the will from all sides to rebuild the trust and rebuild the community william wake who struggled to sleep that first week told the prime minister that if it wasn't for the churches they would
02:27:31 if it wasn't for the churches they would have been utterly abandoned nicholas burton who escaped from the 19th floor ended one meeting by telling us
02:27:40 us that although he was homeless he was no longer hopeless mr chairman members of the panel that concludes the evidence to be read from this portion of the evidence mrs islam thank you very much
02:27:52 mrs islam thank you very much now um
02:27:54 now um we have another witness today don't we but i think she's scheduled to be here at two o'clock is that right that's right uh in which case um i think we'll have to rise at this point
02:28:05 have to rise at this point and we'll sit again at two o'clock thank you all right thank you very much
02:28:23 you