Sharon Darby, a London Fire Brigade control room officer with 13 years experience, gives evidence about FSG call handling procedures, training deficiencies, and the control room's response during the Grenfell Tower fire. Her testimony reveals critical gaps in training, communication systems, and preparedness for multiple FSG calls.
00:00:14 yes just a minute mr. chairman can I call our next witness please control room officer Sharon Darby yes thank you
00:00:48 [Music]
00:01:04 thank you very much I'd give a rather than sitting down reduced right we'll make yourself comfortable all right mr. minutes gonna ask you some questions good afternoon miss Dobie can I just
00:01:16 good afternoon miss Dobie can I just start start by asking you to give us your full name please Sharon Angela Darby and can I start also by saying thank you very much for attending inquiry to give evidence to us it does help us enormously with our
00:01:27 it does help us enormously with our investigations and we're very grateful to you my questions are supposed to be short and simple they don't always turn out in that way so if you don't understand it a particular question or you want me to repeat it I'm very happy
00:01:39 you want me to repeat it I'm very happy to do so or to put the question in a different way if you need a break at any stage just let us know nobody can take a break okay now can I start with your statement now your self you should have
00:01:50 statement now your self you should have in front of you but don't a copy in paper form of your statement so we're going to work on the screen and you're on the desk in front of you on your right you've got a monitor which should have your statement on it can you just
00:02:06 have your statement on it can you just look at that it's dated the 23rd of October 2017 and it's reference number is M et triple zero one three nine six six one have you read it recently sorry
00:02:19 six one have you read it recently sorry have you read it recently yes yes can you confirm for us that the contents are true yes have you discussed your statement all your evidence with anybody before coming here today okay
00:02:32 before coming here today okay can I start by asking you a few questions about your your role and career in your training yeah you're a control room officer with the end of thing and when you rate your witness
00:02:44 thing and when you rate your witness statement
00:02:45 statement you said that you had 13 years experience as that October 2017 yes have you always worked in the control room yes and what trait can you give us an
00:02:58 yes and what trait can you give us an idea of what training you've had to be a control room officer well initially when you start the job you have I think we had six to eight weeks training which
00:03:09 had six to eight weeks training which covers the whole role and then after that we have different types of training some of it might be online and some of
00:03:21 some of it might be online and some of it with a training team if FSG training is biannually and the training even i've
00:03:35 is biannually and the training even i've said on my statement we have quite a lot of training my mouth FSG training was 2013 sorry in 2015 we
00:03:46 FSG training was 2013 sorry in 2015 we had a new system and so that sort of overtook a lot of the other training right
00:03:54 who in the 2 or 3 years leading up to the ground felt our fire in June 2017 gave you that training who delivered the training training Department I believe
00:04:07 training training Department I believe right yeah so we've got a couple of people who were dedicated to training and they they would have done that they
00:04:18 and they they would have done that they would give a pretty it's a presentation right and how long before the night of the Grenfell tower fire was your last training session 2013 two thousand foot
00:04:29 training session 2013 two thousand foot yeah 13:13 yammered have you ever had any training regarding dealing with multiple FSG calls
00:04:44 in your training to deal with FSG calls what was the number of effort FSG calls that you were trained to handle one right are you familiar from your
00:04:57 right are you familiar from your training with policy 797 nine zero classify the guidance I do not know what that policy I don't know the number is it fire Survival Guide yes I'm aware of
00:05:10 it fire Survival Guide yes I'm aware of it
00:05:11 it I wouldn't know the policy word for word but I'm aware of okay have you been trained on its which training would be in accordance with that policy okay what about policy 5:39
00:05:24 okay what about policy 5:39 which is emergency call management again
00:05:36 which is emergency call management again I would be aware of policy and again that is probably being part of our initial training right did you ever get
00:05:47 initial training right did you ever get any you get updates you didn't get updates you can yeah a lot of the updates online or by email how often did
00:05:58 updates online or by email how often did you get those updates when the policies might have a slight alteration apart from that did you get refresher training on FSG calls miss 2013 was the last were
00:06:12 on FSG calls miss 2013 was the last were you yourself involved in handling calls for a fire at lack '''l house in south london in 2009 have you had any training
00:06:23 london in 2009 have you had any training specifically about the lessons learnt from lack of the lack and what house fire when I believe that the Train we did have fire survival training after lacan all house and I believe they might
00:06:34 lacan all house and I believe they might have slightly changed from the lessons from that panel house but I don't know obviously lucano house was in 2009 so it's quite a long time ago so I'm not
00:06:45 it's quite a long time ago so I'm not quite sure about the differences but I know that they we have more training after lacan all okay did you ever receive training as a
00:06:56 okay did you ever receive training as a control room staff member in relation to understanding operational issues that high-rise building nice did you ever get
00:07:08 high-rise building nice did you ever get any training on understanding engineered solutions no did you get training in
00:07:20 solutions no did you get training in relation to how to capture relevant information from nine nine nine callers and then and pass that to operational firefighters and yes as part of the fire
00:07:36 firefighters and yes as part of the fire survival guidance yeah yeah you did you got veteran fire survival guidance would include obtaining information to pass to the crew yes and was the last training
00:07:51 the crew yes and was the last training that you got on that capturing relevant information and passing it to operational fire crews was that also 2013 or was there was there training
00:08:02 2013 or was there was there training later than that no 2013 13
00:08:12 does your training or have hassle training every involved how to deal with persons who don't have English as their first language no does your training or
00:08:26 first language no does your training or has your training ever involved dealing with persons who come from different cultures ethnic minority cultures know that you know the training doesn't involve that the initial training we
00:08:42 involve that the initial training we have a you can get an interpreter on the SIS but obviously that there's quite a process to get an interpreter your telephone but apart from and if a person
00:08:54 telephone but apart from and if a person can't speak English and I thought from that it's nothing specific for try it from training for that no in yours in your experience have you ever had to you to call on the services of an
00:09:06 to call on the services of an interpreter do it once yeah years ago right what was the like German what the language was I can't I'm afraid I don't remember right how how easily available
00:09:18 remember right how how easily available our interpreters to the control room staff it's not it's not an easy process you have to if I needed an interpreter I would ask an officer watch that I needed
00:09:29 would ask an officer watch that I needed one and they would get someone on the telephone or try it you can try and make a conference call if you like with an interpreter but it's not an easy process no do you know if you can get one with
00:09:43 no do you know if you can get one with that language do you know where they come from these interpreter who supplies them night do you know how many languages are available
00:09:55 did you ever have any training on clarifying with callers as to whether they or people in their house or flat have any kind of disabilities or
00:10:08 have any kind of disabilities or mobility issues that would be part of the questions that we would ask of so it's part of the transit with training
00:10:21 it's part of the transit with training there's a number of questions let's try and get from from the Paula something information so that might be one of the questions that we would ask right you
00:10:34 questions that we would ask right you say Mike it might be one other question would it be one of the questions you would ask as a matter of course I'm not
00:10:51 would ask as a matter of course I'm not sure if it's in the I don't know there would be a line of things that you would ask the caller and I guess if you would ask them if there's anyone else in the property with them and and where they
00:11:03 property with them and and where they are and it would take got leads from that if they say they have any mobility issues
00:11:13 [Music]
00:11:20 now on in your statement if I can just go to it on page three in paragraph two you said
00:11:44 that and this is some really halfway down doesn't direct your attention to that
00:11:54 the handling of an FSG call but I started the beginning the night of the Grenfell tower fire there was a huge amount of fast survival guidance calls
00:12:06 amount of fast survival guidance calls an FSG is essentially when a caller tells us that they cannot get out of a property this could be down to a variety of reasons but most commonly due to fire or smoke I'm just pausing pausing there
00:12:20 or smoke I'm just pausing pausing there could you just explain your understanding of at what point a call becomes an FSG call if they are being
00:12:36 becomes an FSG call if they are being affected by fire or smoke and then you would say obviously ask them to leave the property and at that point they
00:12:47 the property and at that point they would say I can't leave the property and ask them why they can't leave the property and it could be because they have a disability it could be that they are there's more fire and smoke outside
00:12:59 are there's more fire and smoke outside their their property and so that's when you start the fire survival guidance of trying to keep them safe and give them to help direction of what to do riced okay so any call which is a call
00:13:14 riced okay so any call which is a call where the caller can leave safely hmm is not is this right it's not a fire survival guidance call in your understand no fire survivor guidance is if they cannot leave the
00:13:26 guidance is if they cannot leave the property now on page three in the third paragraph you say in the last sentence in my 13-year surface I've had a few FSGS but not many they are not very
00:13:39 FSGS but not many they are not very common to be honest how many FSG calls have you heard in your career and I don't know the number but it's probably a handful right
00:13:53 and have you ever experienced any many multiple FSG calls no do you know of colleagues who have had to handle multiple FSG calls
00:14:05 multiple FSG calls I know if colleagues I have right and obviously for lekin allows is it common no it's not common
00:14:20 when you're advising an FSG caller who is not able to leave their premises due to the effects of fire heat or smoke would you expect to have information in
00:14:34 would you expect to have information in in your hands from the incident ground about the conditions in the building as well as information from the caller when
00:14:45 well as information from the caller when you've got the fire survival guidance going on that's usually while the crews are actually making their way to the property and then because on it normally
00:14:57 property and then because on it normally obviously the crews would arrive we will be telling the crews where that caller is in the property and they go straight to them so it's not and the information
00:15:10 to them so it's not and the information might come after they've actually rescued that person so deep the priority is to get to that person then get them out right when you are advising an FSG
00:15:24 out right when you are advising an FSG caller where would would you get information about the conditions in the escape route sorry I don't quite understand but if somebody calls up and
00:15:35 understand but if somebody calls up and says I'm trapped yes I can't get out yes would you ask the caller to tell you about what the conditions in the escape route are or would you would you not go
00:15:46 route are or would you would you not go there um yes because you would say why can't you get out and they will tell you they can't because the escape route is smoke filled or there's fire out there so you're getting information from the
00:15:58 so you're getting information from the caller trying to assess advice okay and if the firefighters were on on-site on
00:16:10 if the firefighters were on on-site on the incident ground if they were if they were on the incident ground yes at the time that FSG call was going on would you expect to have information from the incident ground
00:16:21 incident ground how near the firefighters were to the FSG caller possibly like I said earlier
00:16:40 FSG caller possibly like I said earlier the [ __ ] the priority is to get to that caller before messages come back they might obviously because we are relaying the information to them of where that
00:16:51 the information to them of where that person is so the priority is for them to go to that person and then they might make it give us information once they've but obviously the priority is to get to the person furnace do you remember that
00:17:10 the person furnace do you remember that as part of the advice that you give an FSG caller you you're required to reassure the caller and keep reassessing their situation yes would it be normal
00:17:25 their situation yes would it be normal to reassure the caller by reference to how near the firefighters are to them yes and in order in order to know how near the firefighters are to the FSG caller who would you be dependent on for
00:17:39 caller who would you be dependent on for that information and well the radio operator would might be asking them how close they are the we
00:17:52 be asking them how close they are the we on our map system we now have a tool on there where you can sort of see the location of where the five the price is moving right so that's really
00:18:07 moving right so that's really yeah we can ask them how long have you know how far away they are but we would I mean in London you expect up an appliance to sort of get to another incident within sort of 10 minutes
00:18:19 incident within sort of 10 minutes anyways all right hmm and where the firefighters are on the incident ground already and you've got an ongoing for survival guidance call how who would you
00:18:30 survival guidance call how who would you expect or who would you expect anyone in the control room to speak to on the can on the incident ground to get the information about how close the crews are well the radio is true the radio operator is the person that was speaks
00:18:43 operator is the person that was speaks to the fire crew right how can we mention who is it who the radio operator speaks to about the incident ground well it will be the it will there will be
00:18:56 it will be the it will there will be someone on the appliance who is responsible for sending the radio messages so the messages might come from the watch manager for example but it might not be the watch manager actually speaking to because he obviously be
00:19:08 speaking to because he obviously be dealing with with the incident if you go to page three of your statement or stay on page three and look at the third paragraph you say generally speaking the
00:19:20 paragraph you say generally speaking the advice however around any fire in the first instance will be to get out if safe to do so
00:19:29 it's only when the caller says that they are unable to get out with the FSG kick in and we tell them to remain and follow the guidance that is more around a house
00:19:41 the guidance that is more around a house and a bit right for high-rise it's slightly different but for a house if someone's in a house or in a low level
00:19:53 someone's in a house or in a low level building the advice would be to get out straight away if you've got an FSG call which as you've said before by
00:20:05 which as you've said before by definition was where they were trapped and couldn't get out yes what would be the purpose of telling them to remain well sorry but what would be the purpose of telling them to stay where they are
00:20:18 well they can't if they can't leave because it's dangerous to leave or they're unable to do for it some reason then you'll obviously you need to keep them safe in the drawer try and help
00:20:30 them safe in the drawer try and help them to remain safe in the property right in your space maybe just the language of the statement here but you say it's only when the caller says they are unable to get out with the FSG kick
00:20:42 are unable to get out with the FSG kick in and we tell them to remain that my question was why would you tell them to remain if they were already stuck what a it's not worded greatly but obviously if
00:20:57 it's not worded greatly but obviously if they can't get out they've got no choice but to remain have they so it's actually just helping them and reassuring them right because they have to remain okay can I then just see if we can clear this
00:21:08 can I then just see if we can clear this away because it may be a misunderstanding on page six of your statement you talk about the stay-put policy and this is in the fourth line from the top of the page and you say a
00:21:19 from the top of the page and you say a state book policy as a directive from the Home Office and exactly what we've been told to give as advice in these circumstances and then you say as I stated earlier the stay-put policy is in
00:21:30 stated earlier the stay-put policy is in place for high-rise buildings in the event that callers are unable to get safely out of their property and again I just I just want to ask you why would you be telling people to stay put if
00:21:41 you be telling people to stay put if callers are unable to get safely out of that property state we call it stay put policy that but obviously I'm not it wouldn't be - you would be trying to help him
00:21:54 you would be trying to help him if they can't get out of the building they have no they're not gonna go if they're scared that if they're saying I can't get out because the there's a fire outside by flat then obviously for a
00:22:07 outside by flat then obviously for a higher or if it doesn't affect therefore that they're not viously for a high-rise the advice is that they might be safer to stay inside therefore that in normal
00:22:18 to stay inside therefore that in normal circumstances it should be a contained fireproof space yes so they are not sending them out to more danger yes but if they're already trapped and on the
00:22:32 if they're already trapped and on the other end of an FSG call then is it right that that actually stay put advice has no place because you can't tell people to stay put if it's just a phrase
00:22:44 people to stay put if it's just a phrase isn't it stay put that's you know obviously if people can't get out and they then you've you've got to help them while they're saying look for a
00:22:58 while they're saying look for a high-rise it might be that they're not being affected if they're not being affected by the smoke and the fire it would be safer for them to stay put to stay inside the flat
00:23:17 at what point when a caller calls do you take the step of trying to identify a safe alternative escape route when a
00:23:31 safe alternative escape route when a when a caller calls are you talking about high-rise let's go with a high-rise yes that's so if a call is saying that there's a fire in the
00:23:43 saying that there's a fire in the building there they smoke that coming in or where but if you obviously if they
00:23:55 or where but if you obviously if they say they can't get out because they smoke outside you've got to go by what the caller says to you and trying and assess and give you know just help them
00:24:06 assess and give you know just help them with you're getting your gain you're getting information from the caller we can't see what they're seeing so it's trying to just - for them to say they smoke out there I can't go out there
00:24:17 smoke out there I can't go out there what if the caller rings up and says well I'm not trapped at the moment but I don't want to stay because I'm frightened and I can see smoke coming up the building fire coming up the building
00:24:28 the building fire coming up the building I'm not trapped at the moment if that happens what advice do you give if I put
00:24:40 happens what advice do you give if I put someone's frightened and they want to leave then I'm not then they must leave but I can only go by what I'm trained and the policy the policy that we're trained with which you know it might be
00:24:52 trained with which you know it might be safer for them to stay in their flat if it's not affected and are you trained to try to help them identify a safe alternative escape route
00:25:08 what yes if they're saying that I could you know it sees this I can get out I can go down the stairs I can go I can get out then then they should do that if
00:25:21 get out then then they should do that if he can't then obviously you've got to the fire Survival Guide says really what I'm asking is whether there's a stage before farce I rival guidance to a
00:25:33 before farce I rival guidance to a trapped person where the advice is given to a person who isn't or doesn't think they're trapped but wants to get out but needs help assessing whether or not it's safe for them to go through the escape
00:25:45 safe for them to go through the escape route can you just help us with with what advice you give the caller in this in this in that situation sorry you cannot sit on yours sorry please example
00:25:58 cannot sit on yours sorry please example of one of the questions I promised you my daughter is there as well you've got a call that comes in and the caller says I'm not trapped I can I can leave I'm mobile and I can
00:26:10 I can I can leave I'm mobile and I can leave I'm not stuck because I all I can see a little bit of smoke outside my door I think I can get through it but I'm very worried about staying do you give that caller advice about how to get
00:26:23 give that caller advice about how to get through the escape route probably not I mean if they said they can leave and then I would say to them okay if you if
00:26:35 then I would say to them okay if you if you can leave safely go I see so does that mean that in fact the assessment you want to go yeah hmm does that mean that the assessment of the safety of the escape route is left to the caller well
00:26:50 escape route is left to the caller well and they might want to stay on the phone with you but she's absolutely fine and we would do that we might say oh you you know do you want me to stay on the line with you while you while you go down the stairs and and we can do that
00:27:07 now can I just ask you to look or be shown policy 790 which is far too survival guidance calls and I want to
00:27:20 survival guidance calls and I want to show you appendix through sorry page page 3
00:27:39 and can I start with paragraph 5.5
00:27:48 if you're not familiar with this Mustafi please tell me but but this is paragraph 5.5 of policy number 719 it says control will attempt to gather all the
00:27:59 will attempt to gather all the information on the control information form see appendix 2 and relay this information to the incident as and when it becomes available and then you'll see there's a list of things that control should gather mm-hmm my first question
00:28:13 should gather mm-hmm my first question is in your experience is this information always routinely at least recorded on a control information form in the control room and it's controlled
00:28:24 in the control room and it's controlled probably more recorded on the log with
00:28:28 so that the information can be passed over to the fire crews never actually used the control information form right ok have you observed your colleagues in
00:28:40 ok have you observed your colleagues in the control room using control information no I know because that's like I said earlier fire survival guidance isn't that common and certainly
00:28:52 guidance isn't that common and certainly when we have multiple of them we weren't filling in the form I don't remember if they were actually on the desks at Stratford right just
00:29:03 on the desks at Stratford right just just to be absolutely clear about what I'm asking you about you'd just be shown appendix 2 to this document that there is a control information for your are you familiar with that as a form at
00:29:14 you familiar with that as a form at least it's I have seen it yes right in what context well it's on you but from being tacked on the back of the policy it's there are we have got some
00:29:26 policy it's there are we have got some forms on the desks some merton you do yeah right do you ever use them I've never used one right do you have
00:29:39 I've never used one right do you have them or did you have them at at Stratford I don't remember seeing them and going back to the shopping list if we can muster documents director
00:29:50 we can muster documents director paragraph 5.5 you can see a list of eight detailed pieces of information that you've got to collect in your
00:30:02 that you've got to collect in your experience is this information always obtained and yeah we yes we certainly would find obviously the number of for
00:30:13 would find obviously the number of for her house and flatten number persons the location the conditions their proximity to the fire so yes that we would get as
00:30:25 to the fire so yes that we would get as much of that information as we can and when it says time updated what do you understand by that do you have an understanding about what that means
00:30:40 I don't maybe I don't know him actually what that bit means time of the FSG call maybe I don't know - I know you've only
00:30:52 maybe I don't know - I know you've only handled a handful in your experiences this is slightly unfair but in that experience do you remember updating FSG calls subject updating callers or updating fire crews yes but that like a
00:31:05 updating fire crews yes but that like a same would be done I'm just updating the crews of where the caller is and the condition you know how that's progressing and obviously about letting
00:31:17 progressing and obviously about letting the corner know that the crews are closed and then when they get we tell them they're arriving now you know someone's coming to you okay and in your experience would you be able to update
00:31:29 experience would you be able to update the caller by calling them back to tell them we don't rush information we wouldn't do that especially on a landline or anything like that no no but people nowadays these Mobile's know that
00:31:48 people nowadays these Mobile's know that that's a matter of practice and custom is it the thing is if you identify survival call you're not going to let them go to caller hang up your for one
00:32:00 them go to caller hang up your for one call you know when there's one call going on you keep the caller on the line sort of the fire until the fire crews have got their rights but um for multiple it's obviously multiple sites
00:32:15 multiple it's obviously multiple sites would be slightly different yes see what now I'd see what you're saying so you say slightly different well could you just expand on how different can you
00:32:30 you just expand on how different can you repeat yes it's really this question of updating I can understand how you might update the the fire crews about new information you're guessing all about ringing back yeah we we wouldn't ring a
00:32:41 ringing back yeah we we wouldn't ring a call about okay but I think you said you'd actually with a normal fire survival guy that's called you wouldn't let them go in the first place that's
00:32:52 let them go in the first place that's right so that may leads to the question well what happens where there are multiple FSG calls and I know you've got quite limited experience of those but would you always be able to keep them on the line well I wasn't taking fire
00:33:06 the line well I wasn't taking fire Survival Guide was cause that night okay so I can't really comment about that but I don't think it was possible to keep everybody on the line because of the amount of course that coming in right
00:33:19 amount of course that coming in right now interest looking at five five point five it requires control to relay this information to the incident as and when it becomes available as we can see can I
00:33:33 it becomes available as we can see can I just confirm how bad information gets passed to the incident ground via the radio by the radio no can you tell us which channel is that and these two channels right two channels of the radio
00:33:46 channels right two channels of the radio we have the South channel which is channel 2 and the north north of the river if you like the channel 4 right
00:33:59 river if you like the channel 4 right and if you just turn or look at the bottom of the page it says if underlined control has sufficient resources then MF
00:34:12 control has sufficient resources then MF to H floor mops 1 mm-hmm could be used to free up the main scheme filing radio if there are a large number of FSG calls have you yourself had
00:34:23 of FSG calls have you yourself had experience of using flops flops is the radio channels that we use but flown up to one is like a spare so we're losing flops to and flops for all the time but
00:34:37 flops to and flops for all the time but flops one is a spare okay okay and this is a question I've been asking myself for a week or two is does flops stand
00:34:48 for a week or two is does flops stand for fire London operations yeah okay and you know one is a is a spare you say
00:34:57 you're using flops is is just another word for channel so channel for RT for flops for it's interchangeable I see and
00:35:10 flops for it's interchangeable I see and how would use of flops one free up this is the main scheme filing radio well ice if you've got enough staff you could
00:35:22 if you've got enough staff you could have a dedicated channel just to pacify survive of course if you've got enough staff on to do that right just just on
00:35:40 staff on to do that right just just on the question of numbers of staff I think you say your statement that the normal complement during a chef is 11 elastics the minimum number that's the minimum in your experience does it have ever gone below that it has done yes does it
00:35:55 below that it has done yes does it sometimes go above that yes yes what's the maximum number of staff members you've ever worked with in a control room on a shift I'm not entirely sure 14 15 16 right on
00:36:13 I'm not entirely sure 14 15 16 right on one watch that is sorry because you in the daytime obviously this wasn't no but in the daytime you might have two watches out you have two watches over now yes okay I'll come back to the
00:36:24 now yes okay I'll come back to the question of whether enough staff could have created a dedicated line really a link shortly but just focusing on on the question of passing the information to the incident ground which is what we're
00:36:36 the incident ground which is what we're looking at here's paragraph firefighters policy 790 who do you or who would the control room pass that information to in the first place in the first place it
00:36:48 the first place in the first place it will be the pump bladder who has got the watch manager on it he would he's in charge
00:36:56 charge initially so it would be to that pump the pump ladder who's got the watch manager yes yeah that's the incident
00:37:07 manager yes yeah that's the incident come on say yes okay and once a command unit arrives what happens then the command unit will take over the radio traffic right and who makes and
00:37:22 traffic right and who makes and communicates to you the decision to send radio messages about FSG calls to these Cu the command unit instead of the
00:37:33 Cu the command unit instead of the incident commander um sorry who makes that decision who makes what decision it makes the decision to send radio messages about FSG calls to the command unit as opposed to the incident command
00:37:44 unit as opposed to the incident command pump who makes the decision well the command unit takes over so when that command unit this other radio operator should would know that right
00:37:55 operator should would know that right the command units taken over and to send direct then the course to the command unit say in essence that it's the radio operator the major use to send it to the Cu instead of the ungently okay if you
00:38:15 Cu instead of the ungently okay if you get well let me just show you them the paragraph mm-hmm to be fair to you para 510 in the event that control gets no response from the ICP they will contact an appliance on route and pass the FSG
00:38:28 an appliance on route and pass the FSG information to them the completed form must be passed to the IC on arrival and a copy retained at the ICP now do you do
00:38:41 a copy retained at the ICP now do you do you know why controller required to pass the information to an appliance which is on route rather than an different appliance already at the incident ground
00:38:55 if you can't get if you can't raise to be honest with you if you can't raise the who is in attendance with the watch
00:39:07 the who is in attendance with the watch manager on it then you might try the one of the other appliances in it but they're probably not going to respond to you because obviously they're dealing with the fire so the appliance on route
00:39:18 with the fire so the appliance on route is they are also monitoring the radio so they should they can hear you and so to pass the information to the plants on roots is to just ensure that the information is passed and does get to
00:39:30 information is passed and does get to the incident commander in your experience and in your knowledge from your training would it not be normal for one member of the firefighting operational crew to stay with the pump
00:39:42 operational crew to stay with the pump and listen to messages coming through on the radio that's how it normally would normally work yes okay if you look back at five nine ten I got a five point nine
00:39:55 at five nine ten I got a five point nine of the policy says all FSG call information must be passed to the IC who will decide what action should be taken in your experience and on your training does that is it your understanding that
00:40:08 does that is it your understanding that that means all the information that was gathered in that long shopping list we looked at yes right that's right all the information that we have gathered will
00:40:19 information that we have gathered will be passed over to the incident commander okay and when a command unit is in place on the incident ground would you normally leave it to the command unit to pass that information to the incident
00:40:30 pass that information to the incident commander yes it's the command unit we'll take over that responsibility right can I ask you how did the radio operator in the control room know that the command unit has taken over you get
00:40:43 the command unit has taken over you get a message from the command exactly he will come up on the radio and tell me he's now in Charlie's taken over yes thank you Miss Dobie we've been gang I'm very conscious for 45 minutes would
00:40:57 I'm very conscious for 45 minutes would you like to take a break now or we can yeah yes please if that's fun kid
00:41:02 kid you like abrasion it's all right thank you we have a brake nut should we take five four three gives you ten minutes - yeah just five minutes is fine just try
00:41:14 yeah just five minutes is fine just try three o'clock thank you can I ask you not to talk about your evidence please to anyone while you're out of the room right now you gave the usher and then we'll continue in just over five minutes
00:41:35 right and resume it's three o'clock please
00:41:47 you
00:49:13 [Music]
00:49:20 right is dub' happy to carry on thank you thank you Miss Darby for coming back to us can I just ask you a couple of follow-up questions first of all I asked
00:49:32 follow-up questions first of all I asked you some questions earlier on about about asking callers about whether they have mobility issues or whether they're elderly or children or things like that and you said that it would be one of the questions you would ask and so it was
00:49:44 questions you would ask and so it was part of policy can I just put it to you that in fact there's no written policy we've been able to find in the NFB policies which say that control room
00:49:55 policies which say that control room staff handling FSG calls or emergency calls
00:49:58 calls petechia FSG calls should should find out about for example mobility issues so when you say it was one of the questions that would you would ask is that because
00:50:10 that would you would ask is that because you were trained to ask anyway or practice from the training well like I said if you ask a caller to go to another room to get the kit farthest away from the fire where the fire the
00:50:23 away from the fire where the fire the smoke is and obviously they're gonna tell you if they can't because they've got mobility issues and the caller will generally give you that information anyway would you normally as a matter of practice ask whether there are any
00:50:35 practice ask whether there are any children in the house or flat where you're handling FSG is anyone else with them okay and what about elderly people would you ask about that no particularly
00:50:48 would you ask about that no particularly specifically elderly but obviously you would ask the caller if there's anyone else in the flat or the building with them we also discussed this question of
00:50:59 them we also discussed this question of ringing back just before the break and you said normally you you you wouldn't need to because they'd be on them on you they'd stay on the line and what would happen if you called your call got cut off during an FSG call if it was on a
00:51:14 off during an FSG call if it was on a landline we wouldn't ring that right because you could be putting where there wherever the phone might be you could put them into any more danger it's not
00:51:27 put them into any more danger it's not practice to ring a caller back they said but I can't really answer that I think if they're on a mobile I probably would attempt to call them but if I have one call going on you know if
00:51:41 if I have one call going on you know if it was one call I was dealing with no
00:51:49 going back if I can to policy 539 at page 17 under the words general this is
00:52:02 page 17 under the words general this is policy 539 tab 3 of our policies bundle this is emergency core management which
00:52:12 this is appendix 3 it's the second page of appendix 3 I just want to ask you one of your questions about this it says general other control room officers and supervisory staff will assist the CRO in
00:52:23 supervisory staff will assist the CRO in carrying out a fire survival guidance call by assuring all relevant information regarding the caller's situation is passed via both the air wave radio and via telephone when a
00:52:34 wave radio and via telephone when a command unit is in attendance do you know why it requires the information to be sent via both radio and telephone when they see you as present no I that would maybe a
00:52:50 present no I that would maybe a supervisor would ring the command unit right when is in attendance and I'm not a supervisor from from my point of view it would be the other control room
00:53:01 it would be the other control room offices and supervisory staff if you've got one fire survival guidance going on obviously will assist in that you might need an ambulance so someone else will call the ambulance someone else will be
00:53:12 call the ambulance someone else will be tending the radio operates updating the radio operator right so but for the command unit for the telephone with the command unit that might be more of the officer watch
00:53:23 officer watch I see which telephone would be used in the control room to contact the command unit one that's on the officer 2 watches I don't know
00:53:35 I don't know I'm not sure okay is it a telephone a solid telephone on the head table there is nothing that whether that's for special purposes I'm not sure okay
00:53:48 special purposes I'm not sure okay does this in your experience I mean we can read the text ourselves but in your experience of FSG calls does does that result in there being a a set of a pair
00:54:01 result in there being a a set of a pair of parallel lines of communication between the control room and the incident ground one by radio and one by telephone for a control officer it's the
00:54:13 telephone for a control officer it's the radio so if it's by telephone that's supervisors role which is not okay would you expect the same information to be
00:54:25 you expect the same information to be passed by the supervisor by telephone and by the radio operator by radio to the incident ground yes and in your
00:54:44 the incident ground yes and in your experience would you viewer on the radio and the supervisors on the tech on the telephone would you speak to the same person in the command unit all different people in the command unit to be on the
00:54:57 people in the command unit to be on the phone on the radio do you think it contemplates the simultaneous messages being sent phone on radio yeah I would have thought you they'd be different people
00:55:11 would the control room keep track of the information given on the radio and on the telephone in order to ensure that the messages were consistent well the
00:55:22 the messages were consistent well the information should be down on the log so you'll be passing the information when you're taking advice about the guidance
00:55:33 you're taking advice about the guidance and that you're trying you're typing in a lot of the information so that's going on - I see so you decide clear that
00:55:44 on - I see so you decide clear that you've got the information about the FSG on the log and that's inputted by you call take call taker and and then the radio operator is this what this is
00:55:56 radio operator is this what this is right it has site of the log and then passes that information to the see you what we have is a procedure for that is
00:56:07 what we have is a procedure for that is a service request yes which is like a message box the pool operator will who's taken the details will open up the
00:56:18 taken the details will open up the service request box which is that message information will input the details that so that message will have the instant number on it and if that
00:56:31 the instant number on it and if that person's eye opens up the incident it will automatically been attached to that message box right and the information they will type information for the radio operator to pass
00:56:42 operator to pass and they will save that message box the message box wall we have a list which everyone in the control room can see of
00:56:54 everyone in the control room can see of service requests and it will say on there for our teeth for for example and our tip and on the RT for operator will open that in that box and relay that
00:57:06 open that in that box and relay that information okay and would the supervisor also have access to the log and give the same information by telephone to the see you I don't know
00:57:17 telephone to the see you I don't know what the supervisors over a pass right can I get back to I'm sorry to jump around these policies but back to policy 790 if I can and I just want to show you
00:57:30 790 if I can and I just want to show you two things in here first of all if I can ask you to look at 75 about paragraph seven five seven point five it says that
00:57:44 seven five seven point five it says that the command support system CSS has um has a messages screen that recalls messages sent to and from the incident ground wants to see you has been mobilized messages sent by Firelink radio relating to FSG calls or not sorry
00:57:57 radio relating to FSG calls or not sorry are recorded here and then it goes on to say there is a conferencing facility on CSS which is available for remote users
00:58:08 CSS which is available for remote users control has CSS access and sensitive information relating to specific calls can be communicated by this method
00:58:19 [Music] familiar first question says okay are you familiar with the CSS system no you
00:58:31 you familiar with the CSS system no you know can I then ask you to look at paragraph nine of the same policy on the next page which is communication with control and just draw your attention to
00:58:43 control and just draw your attention to paragraph nine point one it is vital that control is kept informed of the actions being taken to resolve each FSG call the fact that control is aware of the actions being carried out on the incident ground will greatly enhance the
00:58:54 incident ground will greatly enhance the advice given to FSG callers as a control room operator what information would you expect normally to receive from the
00:59:06 expect normally to receive from the incident ground about an FSG call they've reached person apart from that would you expect to get any other information you think regards
00:59:20 any other information you think regards to the FSG yes [Music]
00:59:30 [Music]
00:59:38 not really
00:59:44 when the fire we know when the fire engine reaches the incident we are passing the information to the fire engine
00:59:53 engine I've seen we know when he when he gets they stay two three with past him where that person is and we were the only thing I can think of what they would
01:00:05 thing I can think of what they would come back with is that they've rescued that person would you ever expect to get information by way of update about how near the crews are getting to the destination well they statist to when
01:00:22 destination well they statist to when they are enroute to that incident they will be certainly with weave saying we've got someone on you know we've got how long is your how long do you expect to be and they can give us an ETA I'm
01:00:37 to be and they can give us an ETA I'm not quite sure have you an experience of you any experience handling an FSG call in high-rise building not that I can
01:00:51 in high-rise building not that I can move the call let's see so have you any experience of having to keep get or having to get updates from the incident ground about how close the
01:01:03 the incident ground about how close the crews are to the FSG caller I don't call getting updates like we're two minutes away or whatever unless we
01:01:17 two minutes away or whatever unless we may be asking right
01:01:27 would you expect to receive an update about the outcome of an FSG call
01:01:47 and I want to turn to the night of the fire if I can on the night of the fire you I think moved on to the role of radio operator covering channel 4 is that right and you were undertaking that
01:02:00 that right and you were undertaking that a call like that role I think when the first call came in from Grenfell town
01:02:06 who's the other opera was there another radio operator in in there was it was another radio operator on channel 2 or on shell 2 like who was that Jay Russell
01:02:20 on shell 2 like who was that Jay Russell Sandra Russell okay and we we know I think that she came on to help doing cause at some point that's correct it's when it when it starts to get very
01:02:31 it's when it when it starts to get very busy and we started to get a queue of calls it became apparent that one of us shouldn't overseas and start taking calls that was a priority so I took over
01:02:43 calls that was a priority so I took over both channels I see so you use channels - and for - yeah bricen basically foraging south London's radio cannabis I was the major operator for than that
01:02:54 was the major operator for than that right so you were effectively the radio operators of those north and south of the river yes but you didn't use tunnel to to handle Northland River traffic no
01:03:08 to to handle Northland River traffic no they would stick with channel 2
01:03:19 now in your witness statement if we can just get back to it the bottom of page three you explain that you completed an
01:03:32 three you explain that you completed an exercise with Christine houses on the standby desk I think and then moved across to Channel four and you call it the busier Channel I'm saying Channel four is the busy yeah is it just
01:03:44 Channel four is the busy yeah is it just habitually the busier Channel yes it has more it covers a bigger area right okay and the busier than channel 2 that's the good part
01:03:54 good part okay and when you moved across to the radio see is there a seat a specific seat another room doing the standbys
01:04:05 seat another room doing the standbys with Christine I was assisting her she took the lead on that all right assisting her right so that was in a different so when so when I came back
01:04:17 different so when so when I came back into the control room window when those duties were done and I went on to Channel four that was my position for them for the night can you just give us an idea of physically where you sit as a
01:04:29 an idea of physically where you sit as a radio operator in the control room well we were at Stratford that night I mean Stratford yes so you it's more at the back of the room
01:04:42 so you it's more at the back of the room you say we call the supervisors the back of the room so the opposite to the supervisors you have like a very
01:04:53 supervisors you have like a very difficult disbanded so a row every three positions here with the radio - radio prices and a relief I
01:05:04 the radio - radio prices and a relief I would also take chords and then round the room we have call takers and then in front is the supervisors facing so you've got a clear line of sight to the
01:05:15 you've got a clear line of sight to the supervisor yeah everybody do turn right and did the supervisor have a clear line of sight to you okay what come to look at some of the individuals later on but
01:05:27 at some of the individuals later on but when you cut when you talk about the supervisor who are you talking about on that night I'm talking about officer the watch and the officer in charge right so officer in charge was Alex Norman Alex
01:05:39 officer in charge was Alex Norman Alex home officer of the watch with Peter May and Debbie real right and what about Joe Smith she is above Alex but she came in
01:05:50 Smith she is above Alex but she came in later
01:05:51 later so she wasn't on duty she came in because of this was heaven of how the instrument yes he's here too now on page two of your statements came
01:06:04 now on page two of your statements came back to it
01:06:09 in the second paragraph you say a radio operator is the essential link between the crews on the ground and the control room I just want to have a look at that a little bit further how do control room operators people
01:06:23 how do control room operators people taking 999 calls normally convey messages to you as the radio operator okay
01:06:30 okay again this is code go back to that service request box right so on the system in front of us we have a screen with all the incidents on there the
01:06:41 with all the incidents on there the incident that you want you will open up a message box with the instant number in it or you might open that incident and it will link it to it you put your information into the message box which
01:06:52 information into the message box which is the service request they will say RT for so and it will say the callsign of whoever's the officer in charge and then
01:07:04 whoever's the officer in charge and then they use if it's a priority like an industry they will call out and say message on the form and the range opportunity then when they save that message it goes into the list and then
01:07:17 message it goes into the list and then the I'm a doctor can see the list and obviously there's messages on there for RT for open up that message and relay to the to the officer and child against the
01:07:28 the to the officer and child against the command will be write the radio the fire ground
01:07:34 ground okay and you say open it up and relay it to the fire ground design to whoever on so whoever I'm communicating with incident so when I said earlier the pump
01:07:47 incident so when I said earlier the pump letter with watch manager on it just focusing on what's happening inside the control room for the moment so I think what you're saying is that CRA is normally convey messages to you as the
01:07:59 normally convey messages to you as the radio operator through the vision log and it comes up on your screen does it and you see it and then you read what you see or you say what you see off the screen to vote to the country to the incident ground by radio and would CRA
01:08:14 incident ground by radio and would CRA is normally convey messages to you while still on the calls or would they wait for the calls to finish before typing in messages they might put more information
01:08:30 messages they might put more information on a service bill but generally in this case I was just passing over don't remember them sort of I mean if it was
01:08:41 remember them sort of I mean if it was one on home then you might sort of call across with more info as well but when we were getting lots of calls it was just gone the service requests okay on the night of the fire did it work in the
01:08:55 the night of the fire did it work in the way you've just described with the use of the vision log or it did did it okay we've heard some evidence from Jason Olaf who appeared in the or arrived in the in the control room after about 2:00
01:09:08 the in the control room after about 2:00 o'clock a.m. that control room officers were writing FSG informational pieces of paper and then walking them up to him well that was later on and that was
01:09:20 well that was later on and that was initially it was all done through the radio right it got to a point when obviously we were taking a lot it's calls and the radio is not just for
01:09:31 it's calls and the radio is not just for passing fire survival group cause it's also the link between the firebrand and control state it was also the radio was taking other messages like the makeups
01:09:43 taking other messages like the makeups and you know people get in there at cetera yeah so it wasn't just fire survival guidance so it's due to later on when they derived due to the amount of calls being taken I think the
01:09:54 of calls being taken I think the decision was made to start passing things to him because he was on the phone to the ground because it was quicker that way because of the amount
01:10:06 quicker that way because of the amount of traffic obviously on the radio as well as will probably come to this later on but was there a period of time when you would set you were taking vision
01:10:17 you would set you were taking vision messages from control room operators and radioing them to the incident ground at the same time as Jason Olaf was sending them by mobile phone to the incident
01:10:28 them by mobile phone to the incident ground to be honest I don't know I don't know that is possible gem burr but I was so busy on the radio I don't know
01:10:40 so busy on the radio I don't know I think decision was made at the point for people to start passing the paper pieces of paper over so that's generally what started to happen it might have happened gradually but eventually I okay
01:10:52 happened gradually but eventually I okay look we'll probably come back to that but going back to this question of communication and the use of the vision system can I just ask a general question - did the vision system cope on the
01:11:03 - did the vision system cope on the night with the volume of effective messages or were there problems with it division system tik-tok at night because we it's got a new system and we have had teething problems within but we were at
01:11:16 teething problems within but we were at Stratford which is the fallback Center and the vision as I understand it the server we should change though we have an a server and a visa so a at Merton
01:11:28 an a server and a visa so a at Merton and be it Stratford Roger so because the server was changed to the B server and there wasn't so much information on the B server so it was
01:11:41 information on the B server so it was coping with the amount of information going into it wasn't slowing down or anything like it was okay okay now can I just see if we can illustrate what you've been telling us through some
01:11:53 what you've been telling us through some examples working with the short incident log can I ask you to be shown the short incident log and go to page 20 it's tab 23 of our master documents bundle
01:12:11 that this is I'd stressed an example you see that it the time mark of oh one
01:12:22 see that it the time mark of oh one fifty five a team at on page
01:12:34 20
01:12:40 you have service request created
01:12:50 Artie for to g27 one caller in flat 95 has flames coming in window and then we can see that that's updated at low 155
01:13:01 can see that that's updated at low 155 35 just below it service request updated from Artie for g27 one corner and flat 95 has planes coming in window to Artie for g27 one corner and flat 95 floor 12
01:13:18 for g27 one corner and flat 95 floor 12 floor 12 as flames coming in window so the update is floor 12 do you see that a PD is the person is this right creating
01:13:29 PD is the person is this right creating the service request is that Pete is that Peter daddy and he's the control room operator and says is what's happening is that he's typing the service request in tewevision you're sending it to you effectively
01:13:41 you're sending it to you effectively yeah right okay and might I say updated because with the floor for 12 is the new informations we can see and then if you turn the page to 21 you can see that the service request
01:14:00 21 you can see that the service request is completed at a 150 644 just second entry down service request completed our Tea for Two g27 one corner in flat 95 floor 12 has flames coming in window
01:14:13 floor 12 has flames coming in window when it's completed what is happening so he will pass that information when it's completed then I'll post the information by radio Artie for is radio channel 4
01:14:26 by radio Artie for is radio channel 4 okay what is the T stand for is that transmission what are you sorry Artie what is our T stand for I'm sorry she says right it's just radio traffic neutrality for the radio trucks or any
01:14:38 neutrality for the radio trucks or any radio transmission okay it should be some empty ethane RT for saying okay phrase we would use and then finally to
01:14:49 phrase we would use and then finally to complete the picture if we look at radio transmissions at O 156 that perhaps we
01:15:01 transmissions at O 156 that perhaps we can look at this this is lfb quadruple zero two zero five seven it's not on here and sorry I show you it I'll show you a different document that is a radio
01:15:13 you a different document that is a radio transmission it's a it's a transcript of the radio transmission female speaker flat 95 on the 12th floor has flames coming in the window over and the first
01:15:26 coming in the window over and the first question is was that you yes okay and we can see the message being sent to to the incident ground now at that stage at
01:15:38 incident ground now at that stage at over 150 623 we know that there was a command unit in place and we have evidence earlier from earlier witnesses in the inquiry who say that that was at
01:15:49 in the inquiry who say that that was at that stage cu8 do you know who you were speaking to on cu8 no you don't take a name you just call up that callsign see you a nice day and we can see the time
01:16:05 you a nice day and we can see the time of Oh 156 23
01:16:13 and looking back at the service at the short incident log we could see that a 156 44 the service request is completed and si D is the initial I'm assuming
01:16:27 and si D is the initial I'm assuming that's you yes and does that mean that you complete the request on the short incident log or on the vision sit log system after you've sent the the radio
01:16:38 system after you've sent the the radio message we just looked at okay okay can i disaster clarify my own understanding if you look at the service request completed it has our t4g 271 which is
01:16:52 completed it has our t4g 271 which is the instant command pump whereas you actually radioed cu8 i've just arrived
01:17:07 actually radioed cu8 i've just arrived on his ticked that service request box so I do like that information in that's put in by the original CRO who creates the requests from that point on it
01:17:18 the requests from that point on it remains as he created I haven't changed no no sir can I just it just explore that a little bit further view if you go back then to lfb quadruple zero 205
01:17:30 back then to lfb quadruple zero 205 seven which is the radio message we were looking at a minute ago you could see at the top I didn't take you to and I should have done it says event and then there's a lot of necesitas it says
01:17:43 there's a lot of necesitas it says control FSG six to see you ain't so it looks as if that the system has picked up the fact that you passed the radio message to see you ate in would you
01:17:57 message to see you ate in would you expect the the recording system to pick to recall which see you you're sending the message to yes yeah cause it's taped yep yeah yes okay and
01:18:14 to take the Chairman's point a little further does that mean that although the person who created the service request which I think in this case it was Pete daddy thought that the messages were
01:18:26 daddy thought that the messages were still being sent to g27 one as the initial command pump you knew that actually they should go to see you age and sentence next question there how do you remember how you found
01:18:37 there how do you remember how you found out that cu8 was the right but was the command unit which had arrived yes I do I mean I know that I was calling up
01:18:48 I mean I know that I was calling up called two seven one with the priority might have done if it was that one but I was calling up golf two seven one and I wasn't getting a response because obviously they moon it's very busy and
01:19:00 obviously they moon it's very busy and Charlie knew for meit to come up on the radio and spoke to me and said we are just certainly a name we just certainly Nick you know setting up can you pass
01:19:11 Nick you know setting up can you pass the party over to us and obviously like I said earlier command you does take over so from that moment I started passing though my okay so to summarize
01:19:23 passing though my okay so to summarize this does that mean that the control room officers creating messages didn't know that they might not necessarily know that because it was so busy but they do know that obviously golf to someone is is attached to that incident
01:19:35 someone is is attached to that incident unless the important thing is that those messages was okay
01:19:49 is there any way of amending the vision system when you mark it as service request completed to show that in fact the message was being sent to CUA to not g27 one it's not standard practice to do
01:20:01 g27 one it's not standard practice to do that because I mean it is taped and it does log it so it's not standard practice if I wouldn't change your
01:20:12 practice if I wouldn't change your service request information right I could it was I could put I could see you a is now but they never had usually they would come up say command you'd see you
01:20:24 would come up say command you'd see you a is now instant command pump right it was so busy that that might not have actually been said okay and if they had said that I would too tight because I'm listening and typing at the same time
01:20:36 listening and typing at the same time and I'm gonna type that in but it was so busy it was just a case of getting the information to across to them and you know was there a way in which see those
01:20:48 know was there a way in which see those on cu8 could access the vision Lord and themselves type in as a information message or or something to say please pass all messages to see you ate well I don't know what they have on the command
01:21:01 don't know what they have on the command unit I've never seen what they are using so I don't I don't know the answer to that like I say it is it is taped and
01:21:13 that like I say it is it is taped and starting to get long to this cu8 okay just going just getting back to being told about setting up if I could just
01:21:24 told about setting up if I could just ask you to be shown lfb quadruple zero three oh seven eight
01:21:45 3:07 8 I'm so sorry
01:21:52 three three zero seven eight it should produce something of interest
01:22:08 nice let's come back to that
01:22:21 can actually explore another example with you and if you can't remember anything about it then say so and well I'll stop I'm going to ask you about flat 111 on the 14th floor
01:22:33 flat 111 on the 14th floor are you ok with that ok now there were two service requests and we know information about it was passed via what we what we understand it's called an admin line call you familiar with admin
01:22:46 admin line call you familiar with admin line calls ok if you go first of all to page 61 of the ORR I should just tell you what the ORR is it's a it's a report
01:22:58 you what the ORR is it's a it's a report put together in at the end of May for the of our safety the enquiry for but by the lfb and they've shared it with the inquiry under everybody else and which is a timeline of the first hour of the
01:23:11 is a timeline of the first hour of the fire with some detail in it and the page 61 there's a table at the bottom of the page and you can see in the table that one of the flats listed the second one down is if flat number 111 and I just
01:23:24 down is if flat number 111 and I just stress for everybody in the in the room that that is an example only I'm using this for and we can see from the table that the calls received into the control room at 1:25 16 in relation to flat 111
01:23:39 room at 1:25 16 in relation to flat 111 on the 40th floor saying they're trapped by smoke do you see that ok now we know from a document I'm going to show you that at 1:35 24 so 10 minutes or so
01:23:52 that at 1:35 24 so 10 minutes or so later Alex Norman sent details about this flat cu8 and can I just ask the witness to be shown inq quintuple zero one nine four
01:24:20 and that is time that a 135 24 as you can see from the middle of the event information at the top and if you turn to the next page if mister documents
01:24:32 to the next page if mister documents director can turn to the next page near the bottom of the page you can see that Alex Norman and we've been told it's Alex Norman by Joe Smith who who who
01:24:44 Alex Norman by Joe Smith who who who told us miss that she says control says right I've got flat 1 1 1 C u 8 says 1 1 1 which is on the 14th floor and then if you go to the next page the 14th floor
01:24:59 you go to the next page the 14th floor is repeated at the top there my first question is having shown you the receipt of the call at 125 and the message to see you ate at 135 by Alex normally my
01:25:12 see you ate at 135 by Alex normally my first question is did you know that Alex Norman was contacting the Cu on the incident ground ok did she did she
01:25:30 incident ground ok did she did she didn't tell you did she that she was contacting no right did you see her on the phone
01:25:38 the phone passing messages to the to see you a tour to the incident ground no I don't okay now it looks if you go back to the
01:25:50 okay now it looks if you go back to the short incident log please look at page 19
01:26:00 that at the time mark of Oh 143 58 CH makes a service request RT for G to 7 1
01:26:16 makes a service request RT for G to 7 1 flat 111 14th floor trapped in bathroom smoke coming in CHS I think Christine
01:26:27 smoke coming in CHS I think Christine house and I've worked that out that that right okay do you know can you help me with how Christine Hansen would have got that information well it may have run
01:26:40 that information well it may have run back right okay and then spoken to Christine and then if you look at a 144 56 you can see si D which is you service
01:26:53 56 you can see si D which is you service request completed RT for to do two seven one and you repeat the message yeah this is an example but did you know that at that stage in the evening you were
01:27:05 that stage in the evening you were passing radio messages in relation to for fast survival guidance calls in relation to the same flats that Alex Norman was passing messages to and by admin line does it surprise you to find
01:27:17 admin line does it surprise you to find to find out to be honest I don't think you really matters I think the fact that they were getting new information is that even if they've got it once or twice it's that's the important thing right do you know can you explain why
01:27:31 right do you know can you explain why the radio message that I've just shown you was sent something like eight minutes after Alex Norman's call to see you ate well the call Christine spoke to
01:27:46 you ate well the call Christine spoke to she made that request at 1:43 so that assume that maybe the callers runback spoken and got Christine and then I've passed it over straightaway right
01:27:57 passed it over straightaway right okay there's then a second service request for the same flat at 150 113 you go to page 20 of the short incident log
01:28:08 go to page 20 of the short incident log 150 113 service request and this is hjf this time which I think I've worked out is Heidi Fox Heidi and she just makes a service request rt4 to g27 one info
01:28:22 service request rt4 to g27 one info received from sry police caller is that sorry yes in corner and flat 111 on the 14th floor is in the bathroom area with smoke entering room he is having difficulties breathing and that was that
01:28:36 difficulties breathing and that was that service request was completed at Oh 150 405 if you look just a little bit further down the page by s ad that's you again can you explain why there was a
01:28:54 again can you explain why there was a further service request in relation to this
01:28:57 this FSG caller well again the caller has run back we've spoken to Surrey Police has run 999 and probably couldn't get
01:29:10 run 999 and probably couldn't get through to us and spoke was diverted to Surrey please write em and Heidi's got that information from the police and sent it on a service request so I mean I
01:29:21 sent it on a service request so I mean I think callers have were ringing back and speaking to different people in the control room but he's you wouldn't necessarily Caillat all that him you
01:29:34 necessarily Caillat all that him you wouldn't pick up that may be the same caller was ringing back and several people could have spoken to that same caller and it would still be the information they were getting because of is an update as well the smoke isn't
01:29:49 is an update as well the smoke isn't he's now having difficulties breathing so it's
01:29:51 so it's the all the information still be passed right Heidi wouldn't know maybe that Christine had spoken to that corner if
01:30:06 Christine had spoken to that corner if you had known that Alex Norman had already passed a message about this flat 2 to command unit age do you think you would have still have sent this radio transmission I was just sending all the
01:30:18 transmission I was just sending all the service request messages so true I wasn't thinking and I if anyone else is so now just as I was just sending what was being sent to me right can I can I just turn to the radio messages
01:30:29 can I just turn to the radio messages then that was sent a question if the service request is created on the visual system not pensioned does the systems
01:30:40 system not pensioned does the systems from the love if it's not action to it will just sit there until someone actually completes it okay can I just
01:30:54 actually completes it okay can I just show you how to radio messages first of all that lfb quadruple zero two three zero five
01:31:11 and this is operator to charlie uniform or rather do you know that that's an incoming message on an outgoing message
01:31:24 on an outgoing message it starts operator charlie uniform 8 go ahead over Charlie 4 we're being a but so that's from me to Joe what I think
01:31:35 so that's from me to Joe what I think that's from me to Charlie for mate yes I've seen that operator is you but so you're calling charlie uniform 8 Charlie for me I think may be the other way
01:31:46 for me I think may be the other way around
01:31:47 around that's a bit confusing I think I'm calling up Charlie for me ok well and obviously sending over that information and then well the clinic you can see the
01:31:58 and then well the clinic you can see the information we're being advised that people on the 10th floor are asking to leave their flats are you able to go and check them that that's presumably you telling so speaking to see you 8 yeah I'm just putting that to you because it just seems obvious I wasn't waiting for
01:32:10 just seems obvious I wasn't waiting for an answer just st. going can you go and check them and then you say traffic we've got information received or info received from sorry police uncover on the 14th floor and flat 111 is in the
01:32:23 the 14th floor and flat 111 is in the bathroom with smoke entering the room and he's having difficulties breathing over looking back at the short incident log
01:32:36 at over 150 405 page 20 I've shown you this before now you've got you've got the service request completed and you've
01:32:49 the service request completed and you've got the radio message where you when you sent the message were you essentially reading the service request in progress
01:33:00 reading the service request in progress at a 150 352 allowed down the phone to see you ate oh I see this it's my fault
01:33:11 see you ate oh I see this it's my fault I've confused you I'll show you the radiator progress means that I've seen that message and I'm like trying to raise them the one pink which says complete is now I have now passed that
01:33:23 complete is now I have now passed that information yes I see yes and venit at lfb quadruple 0 - 3 - 4 - 3 - 4 we've
01:33:38 lfb quadruple 0 - 3 - 4 - 3 - 4 we've got a message of Oh 150 331
01:33:55 and this is as you can see time to a 150 331 from the event configuration of the top operator okay that was flat 111 can
01:34:09 top operator okay that was flat 111 can you confirm what floor that's on call a 14 and again is that cu8 asking you the
01:34:20 14 and again is that cu8 asking you the question and you responding yes he's asking me can I confirm the floor yes and showing you that does that
01:34:31 floor yes and showing you that does that mean can we get from that that when you speak to see you eight by radio in relation to an MSG called you are essentially reading off to see you eight what you've got on your vision log in
01:34:43 what you've got on your vision log in front of you right
01:34:51 miss Davi I'm just noticing the time I've been reminded at the time would you like to break all you want to okay well let's just see where mister minutes go into the rest of the afternoon mister
01:35:02 into the rest of the afternoon mister minute you've got a few more questions I suspect I do yes I do but I can carry on for prefers yes but if you think that you may need to go on until 4:15 or even
01:35:14 you may need to go on until 4:15 or even 4:30 with this much prefer to have a break at this point I think why don't we take a break now well can I just ask you
01:35:26 take a break now well can I just ask you for up are you content subject to any other developers to go on until let's say how fast for right well in that case I think it would be in everyone's interest to have a short break now just
01:35:37 interest to have a short break now just five minutes or so and then mister minute can feel free to use the afternoon yeah well he was like I ought just to be candid with the chair and the witness and I am NOT going to finish my
01:35:48 witness and I am NOT going to finish my questions of the witness this afternoon they're afraid and it's not great news for you it's Dobby I'm afraid I'm I'm sorry about that but the more questions we have today as a few as they should be tomorrow that's good because you never
01:35:59 tomorrow that's good because you never know that's the theory never break down until five to four so don't talking about if you don't get the option now
01:36:22 will receive a five-to-four please
01:36:33 you
01:46:56 they could up they could request either a make up of appliances or request other resources the message is then processed through vision and picked up by another CRO who will action it and allocate the
01:47:08 CRO who will action it and allocate the required resources do you have any part to play in that exercise as a radio operator as a radio operator you take
01:47:19 operator as a radio operator you take the message from the incident commander and it might be saying for example make pumps six right so I'm listening to him I'm typing in I'm opening a service
01:47:31 I'm typing in I'm opening a service request type in that make pump six and then when I save that service request I will shout out to the room so they all know that there is an urgent message
01:47:42 know that there is an urgent message coming out and I will shout out make pump six and they will then that service request will go put into that list again and one of this the control officers
01:47:54 and one of this the control officers will pick it up and do the actions required okay do you shout out all messages that come from the incident ground or only those that relate to resources anything urgent like for example definitely make ups we
01:48:07 like for example definitely make ups we always shout out yeah what do you think it's an ambulance we would shout why do you shout it out if it's urgent so that
01:48:19 you shout it out if it's urgent so that it brings the attention to people that are in the room and they know that they've got to deal with that correctly and on the night did you do that
01:48:30 and on the night did you do that shouting out for all nine nine nine calls or FSG messages that came in so that it's a that control room would know about well I didn't get officially
01:48:41 about well I didn't get officially messages from the ground I got makeups from from the crews right and you I would shout I shouted out with my cops okay so you say you didn't you didn't
01:48:53 okay so you say you didn't you didn't get FSG messages from the ground that's right we're doing the FS joonyoung i'm so we're passing the official information to them and they're they're receiving the information yeah did you
01:49:05 receiving the information yeah did you get any feedback or communication back from from the incident ground about the about FSG messages was that at any stage during the night of the Grunfeld town fire now if all radio messages are
01:49:23 fire now if all radio messages are logged on to vision as we've seen does that mean that all the other CRS in the room can see them they can they have to go through the log and it can get quite up there you got to scroll how do you go describe missing does that mean that
01:49:36 describe missing does that mean that when they are speaking to a caller they know or concede that a message has been sent to the fire ground oh yeah what do
01:49:51 sent to the fire ground oh yeah what do you mean while they're on the line to them yes then they might shut up rt4 message will have it I will pick you up and send it they'll know when I've completed Benson yes I were to take an
01:50:03 completed Benson yes I were to take an example I showed you the messages complete created and completed in relation to flat 111 yeah if flat 111 called back into the control room and got it got another control room operator
01:50:14 got it got another control room operator for example they're not gonna scroll through all the messages because they won't have time to do that right but could they do that well I suppose they could but we wouldn't have had time to look through all the message
01:50:29 look through all the message the pride that they were like priority calls emergency calls waiting and then it got to the point of we didn't have time to scroll through and see who's
01:50:42 time to scroll through and see who's already calmed it some time just pick up the calls and get the information that you're taking if a caller asked the control room operator
01:50:54 control room operator how are the crews on their way would the controller operator be able to answer the question by scrolling up and looking
01:51:05 the question by scrolling up and looking at the the vision log and seeing the message completed message completed will mean that I've passed that information to the crew the control room operator
01:51:18 to the crew the control room operator the control officer will know that crews are there or on their way because it shows on the incident all the appliances that are assigned today and they change color as to when they're on their way
01:51:31 color as to when they're on their way and they change color to red when they actually are in attendance so they can see when people they'll know if the fire engines are in attendance right but in
01:51:43 engines are in attendance right but in it to be able to answer the question to a fast survival guidance caller yeah all the crews on their way up to me in this high-rise where are they would a control
01:51:57 high-rise where are they would a control room operator be able to get that information when it's multiple homes like where's where obviously and saying to them that we are going to pass the information to the grounds and
01:52:08 pass the information to the grounds and we'll make sure they get the information of where you are right so is this right as it follows that all that a control room operator would be able to do is either to resend the
01:52:19 able to do is either to resend the message to the fire ground via on the radio or perhaps in an admin line call from the telephone and or tell the
01:52:32 from the telephone and or tell the caller that a message has been sent yeah we will let the crews know where you are right but does it follow from that that the control room operator wouldn't be able to get information from
01:52:43 wouldn't be able to get information from the control from the incident ground to be able to say to the caller they are two floors below you and on their way out would officers on the incident
01:52:58 out would officers on the incident command pump all the command unit have access to the vision log to be able to see what message radio messages were have were being sent I don't know what
01:53:09 have were being sent I don't know what they have access to now at the bottom of page four of your statement you say I remember thinking that although we were
01:53:20 remember thinking that although we were passing a lot of information to the ground crews it was taking time to receive informative messages back an informative message keeps us informed of the situation on the ground gives us
01:53:31 the situation on the ground gives us detail about the fire
01:53:37 then you go on to say well let me just pause there you say it was taking time to receive informative messages did that cause you difficulties no because the priority was the fire Survival Guide in
01:53:49 priority was the fire Survival Guide in schools the informative message I think they sent one when it was May pump six and then or sit then but then the informative message the next one came a
01:54:00 informative message the next one came a lot later but that was because the radio really was the priority was getting the fire survival information across to them and and the makeups that was another priority because they needed to get the
01:54:11 priority because they needed to get the resources down there quickest so the messages you're talking about here are a resourcing messages and and an informative message the informative
01:54:22 informative message the informative message that crew will send by what you know building of how many floors and yes that sort of message that came much
01:54:33 that sort of message that came much later because the radio was very busy dealing with passing the fire survival guidance they were taking all that information and also they were having to make the incident up and it was going up
01:54:46 make the incident up and it was going up very quickly so the information coming back to the radio and to the control rooms and they went up to like make pulse 4:40 in the end so that was taken over right at the
01:55:00 end so that was taken over right at the top of pictures continuing on that theme at the top of page five of your statement you say however the crews were very good at responding to the FSG messages and relaying make up math
01:55:11 messages and relaying make up math messages back to us now you've told us about relaying make up messages I just want to look at the way you say the crews were very good at responding to the FSG messages and what do you mean
01:55:24 the FSG messages and what do you mean when you say nothing good yeah I mean is that I was able to call them up and they were they were I was able to get hold of them quickly to pass the information so that when I say they were
01:55:37 information so that when I say they were good at responding they were good at responding to the chat to me for me to pass there wasn't much of a delay I was able to pass things very quickly okay but you you yes and yeah I think you've
01:55:50 but you you yes and yeah I think you've told us that a new stage were you told that the progress of any particular fire survivable guidance called yourself I think you said the no stage were you told of the progress of any individual
01:56:01 told of the progress of any individual fire survival guidance call yourself in any other way do you think no I don't know did you or anybody else in the
01:56:14 know did you or anybody else in the control room to your knowledge try throughout the night to get any if further information from the incident ground about the progress of rescues of Lauren well I think Alex Norman was
01:56:26 Lauren well I think Alex Norman was trying she was what she did you see her or hear her trying to do that and well
01:56:37 or hear her trying to do that and well it was a long time ago so actually like just hearing conversations and things but I know that maybe subsequently I know but I do know that she was trying to get okay trying to get that information do you know how successful
01:56:49 information do you know how successful she was no I would obviously the when Jason Olaf and they jump in probably trying to get them to get that information it's right
01:57:09 - did the fact that you weren't I'm really asking you for your perspective did the fact that you weren't getting any information back from the incident
01:57:20 any information back from the incident ground about the progress of fire survival guidance calls or rescues did that hamper you in your ability to to
01:57:32 that hamper you in your ability to to assist try survive regardless callers or assist caller assist operators to assist those callers hampered I wasn't taking
01:57:45 those callers hampered I wasn't taking calls so I don't know from them do you know whether the absence of that information hampered control room operators in giving advice to callers it
01:57:57 operators in giving advice to callers it was just so busy they were just trying to just get through it
01:58:08 at the top of page five of your statement which we've just been looking at you say for a long time all we knew officially was that there was a fire on the fourth floor we had no idea how it
01:58:19 the fourth floor we had no idea how it was getting bigger and bigger only that more pumps were needed when you say officially does that mean that there was some unofficial knowledge that you also had we just I guess we were
01:58:35 you also had we just I guess we were guessing by the fact that they were making it up obviously there was more going on than the fire on the fourth floor but that's all we know we didn't know how what was happening right but we
01:58:48 know how what was happening right but we obviously we knew it was getting bigger because they were making that up yes did does that mean you didn't know about the what was actually a light on
01:58:59 about the what was actually a light on the building does that mean that you didn't know about the speed of fire spread well we know it was we we know that it was being made up very quickly I
01:59:10 that it was being made up very quickly I mean when it gets to like 10 15 20 you know that it's a big fire and it's getting serious but originally or we'd no know was that we've been caught in the fire on the fourth floor and
01:59:21 the fire on the fourth floor and obviously it was that didn't really try we didn't really know what was going on
01:59:29 did you think the more information from the incident ground about the fire itself would have helped you or helped other control room operators advise callers
01:59:38 callers [Music]
01:59:44 in what way well we could have if we didn't own the fire was maybe spreading [Music]
01:59:54 [Music] it's very difficult for me to answer that questions I wasn't taking calls I wasn't in that role but obviously it probably would have helped Alex as well if she didn't own bit more what's going on if you turn to page six of your
02:00:08 on if you turn to page six of your statement just jumping ahead for a moment at the top of that page you see you say this there were no TVs on Stratford and I did not see anything relating to the phone till about 5:00 a.m. when it started to get much quieter
02:00:19 a.m. when it started to get much quieter in the control room I think it may be again a language thing when you say there were no TVs on Stratford do you
02:00:32 there were no TVs on Stratford do you mean there that there were no TVs at Stratford switched off okay do you know why it was switched off I didn't even occur to mate to be honest it wasn't on at the beginning of the
02:00:43 it wasn't on at the beginning of the night and it didn't occur to me right then it should be on or anything okay and then you say in the next sentence we had P we had purely been reliant on the crews to update us on what was happening
02:00:56 crews to update us on what was happening and what you sold us already this afternoon I think you told us that in fact you didn't get any information back from the crews not until a lot later didn't we can only go bubble and you say
02:01:12 didn't we can only go bubble and you say in the next sentence I remember googling the fire and thought to myself oh my god we've been telling people to stay put in that it's very clumsily written I didn't say this word
02:01:24 clumsily written I didn't say this word for word this has been dictating
02:01:28 what's your recollection was a shock by the time that we actually started to see images it was a lot it was like five six o'clock in the morning right and a couple some of us started to look at
02:01:40 couple some of us started to look at look it up one of the news and it was a shock it was seeing do you remember what will come to it but do you remember what time the stay-put advice was changed I have no idea you
02:01:52 advice was changed I have no idea you don't I don't I do remember giant Smith going around the room and telling people to change the advice but I don't mean no time that was right and it probably was
02:02:03 time that was right and it probably was after the make pumps 40 major in beauty yes okay but did you realize when by 5:00 a.m. in fact that the stay-put
02:02:16 5:00 a.m. in fact that the stay-put advice had been changed some hours before oh yeah yes I knew that it had changed yes so when you say it's taking we've been telling people to stay put in
02:02:27 we've been telling people to stay put in that like I say that's worded very clumsily okay why do you think that if you'd seen images earlier that would have affected the advice that now that's
02:02:41 have affected the advice that now that's not a fair question because you weren't giving advice I'll move to the next point or make next topic if I can which is the first FSG information
02:02:51 do you remember off the top of your head from your recollection when the first FSG calls started to come in no I can't
02:03:04 FSG calls started to come in no I can't remember a time line might have been after
02:03:09 after pump six I'm not interested right now you say on page four of your statement about a third of the way down after the reference to make pumps 15 and straight
02:03:21 reference to make pumps 15 and straight up to 25 you say that's 25 fire engines at one scene it was obvious then that this was really bad and very rare suddenly there was an influx of calls that began to come into the control room
02:03:33 that began to come into the control room from residence 25 Lux it did go up very very quickly yes yes we have make pumps
02:03:46 very quickly yes yes we have make pumps 25 at 130 Oh 131 or so and do you remember which appliance you radioed with the first of the FSG calls twosome
02:04:00 with the first of the FSG calls twosome it was it wasn't two seven one right do you remember if you had any success in speaking with anybody at g27 one when you first called them yes it was golf two seven one i'll golf 272 I certainly
02:04:13 two seven one i'll golf 272 I certainly was able to get a mention okay you could do you remember who you spoke to no because you don't get a name you just go on the the callsign but I do have it there wouldn't the messages when is she
02:04:25 there wouldn't the messages when is she coming from watch magic to help them so he was right and do you remember that there came a time when you could get no reply from g27 one yeah and what did you do remember yeah I believe there was a
02:04:42 do remember yeah I believe there was a couple of times that happened and another appliance who had just got in attendance I thought I can't remember it was go three six one possibly came up on the radio I kept trying kept saying
02:04:53 the radio I kept trying kept saying priority and he came up and said we've just got here do you want to give it to the information to us rights which I did and he said we'll pass it straight to the instant Amanda okay we have record of Acton's
02:05:07 Amanda okay we have record of Acton's pump ladder g26 one intercepting the FSG information is that that that's in accordance of your regulation is it okay
02:05:18 [Applause] now on page four of your statement at the top you say that I was aware of
02:05:32 the top you say that I was aware of message of the message to make pumps for this is right at the very start yeah if we look at the short incident
02:05:43 yeah if we look at the short incident log at page 17 which is where it starts we the incident starts at a at zero zero
02:05:56 we the incident starts at a at zero zero five fifty nine and twelve seconds it wasn't it may my teammate pump six right there my statement I didn't remember it correctly yes okay my
02:06:09 remember it correctly yes okay my question is is is you can't actually see that make up message on the short incident log then he wouldn't have had they wouldn't have been said right dude
02:06:20 they wouldn't have been said right dude do you know the background to the incident being made up to four pumps no they only know that the highrise was put
02:06:32 they only know that the highrise was put on it the attendance that's all I know okay if they didn't say to me make pumps for them they didn't that didn't happen it would be on I would have typed everything they said into the law so it
02:06:43 everything they said into the law so it would be on there right is it early that you say I was aware of the message to make puns for well I've miss remembered it incorrectly as six I see okay
02:06:59 and then on page four a little bit lower down use you describe at the end of that
02:07:10 down use you describe at the end of that paragraph ever to show you a sentencing system
02:07:15 I'm so sorry three lines up it says I recall from there it was declared a major incident there is a procedure for things to be declared a major incident
02:07:26 things to be declared a major incident it would be declared the officer in charge of the scene the resulting procedure in the control room is then dealt with through the supervisors what is the my question is what is the procedure in the control room that is
02:07:38 procedure in the control room that is dealt with through the supervisors supervisor so I don't actually know obviously I would I share today I do remember shouting now that this is a major incident and Alex obviously to code and Alex Debian Peter would have
02:07:51 code and Alex Debian Peter would have done in the action right what they needed to do for that do you know what practical difference the incident being
02:08:02 practical difference the incident being declared a major incident made to your operations in the control room well it's a forty by then anyway so it was no I
02:08:15 a forty by then anyway so it was no I don't know I don't have a I don't deal with that when it gets that far do you remember whether a m-- so if you'd asked you are you familiar with something called a methane message have
02:08:27 something called a methane message have you ever heard of a methane message do you recall being asked to put a methane message out okay do you know did you
02:08:41 message out okay do you know did you know that the police had declared a major incident or critical incident at 126 and a major incident at 132
02:08:55 do you remember whether the police caught contacted the control room to tell you that a major incident have been declared
02:09:03 declared thank you speak to the supervisors okay I can turn to page five of your statement I'll ask you to look at second
02:09:21 statement I'll ask you to look at second paragraph
02:09:26 two lines down you say I cannot really remember the names of the senior officers present but I think they
02:09:37 officers present but I think they started to come in at around the 15 pump mark now we know from looking at the short incident log and I'll show this to you if you like it's page 17 the the
02:09:50 you if you like it's page 17 the the incident was made 15 pumps at 2809
02:10:03 where you can see makeup IUP g27 one make pumps 15 make aerials times two and it's got your initials next to the radio message when you see that that's you is
02:10:15 message when you see that that's you is it recording in the vision log that you've had already a message from the incident ground for a makeup that's correct as you told this and that time o 2809 is is make lungs 15 in terms of the
02:10:32 2809 is is make lungs 15 in terms of the senior officers are you able to give us some names do you think well who it was who were coming in well I I didn't know I didn't really know them at the time I
02:10:43 I didn't really know them at the time I know who they are now right at the time I didn't really know okay and we have just some timings we've got at the first of the senior officers coming in as
02:10:54 of the senior officers coming in as Jason Olaf though who arrives at between 150 and 155 or so it's not exactly clear and that's what he told us which is
02:11:06 and that's what he told us which is sometime after pat pumps were made 15 in fact his after pumps were may 25 he's got to he would be paged yes and he's got to get yes it's really just a timing
02:11:26 got to get yes it's really just a timing question because you say you think you started they started to come in and around the 15 pump mark but in fact the pumps were made 25 had a 131 and an Olaf comes in at 150 to 155 so do you think
02:11:40 comes in at 150 to 155 so do you think that in fact that 115 pub mark is right not necessarily because a okay looks like it's a lot of that ins more supervisory page with when they
02:11:54 more supervisory page with when they come in do you happen to remember who the first senior officer was who came into the control room I know now I think it was mrs. Rowe who's able to Jason oh yeah from before now three quarters of
02:12:06 yeah from before now three quarters of the way down page five you say
02:12:17 I'm just trying to link it to a time point
02:12:25 when we'd gone to 40 pumps this is five lines down they took over the communication with the command unit on the ground and passed on the FSGS directly to them I think they used
02:12:36 directly to them I think they used mobile phones to do this then a few lines on from that because you describe what they do you say my role then became one of liaison with the crews about
02:12:47 one of liaison with the crews about specific resources that were required such as extra breathing apparatus BA or further fire and rescue units fr use etc
02:13:01 does that
02:13:04 happen as soon as Jason Olaf comes in and starts speaking on the mobile to the command unit or did it happen later he might not happen straight away I don't
02:13:17 might not happen straight away I don't know when the decision was made for people to start passing him him the messages so it might have taken it a while and it might have overlapped okay
02:13:28 while and it might have overlapped okay I'm not sure four times let's just take this in stages then can I then move to a similar topic at a slightly different topic um do you think it's sensible to
02:13:40 topic um do you think it's sensible to go to a new topic
02:13:44 [Music] well when you've never you're suddenly said that you're gonna need this witness to come back tomorrow I would like not to have to do so for her sake but I'm afraid I do have about
02:13:56 her sake but I'm afraid I do have about another hours questions 45 minutes questions well I say only prefer not to cut back your own volition would don't think any of us would be wise to sit here for another no I'm not going to ask
02:14:08 here for another no I'm not going to ask you to do that so perhaps the best thing to do would be to to pause now and meter are really just seem if you're going to move to something that's it's different and self-contained it would be better to
02:14:20 and self-contained it would be better to stop well it's it's part it is it's slightly different than North nor completely what I want to talk about is the whiteboard system and the question of overlapping quickly something we could start or over that too much
02:14:32 could start or over that too much discontinuity yes yes mr. B and I'm sorry to have skewed it to do this and I hope it's not inconvenient to you but is it possible that you might be able to
02:14:43 it possible that you might be able to come back for an hour in the morning and assist us I'm sorry very helpful I'll ask them this question before mr. minute prompts me would it be inconvenient for you to be back in half past nine
02:14:57 you to be back in half past nine now that Bureau agents well I suppose mr. mediate that would be the sensible thing to do so that's a consent application yes it would be able to be very grateful thank you well I think it'd be in everyone's
02:15:10 well I think it'd be in everyone's interest if we break at this point right this minute said I'm sorry we are going to have to ask you to come back tomorrow I hope for only an hour or so can't guarantee it I'm afraid so if you
02:15:25 can't guarantee it I'm afraid so if you would please back up us nine and they've talked to anyone about your evidence every night is that Alright thank you very much need before seeing you tomorrow like to go with you I'll show you look
02:15:37 you look [Music]
02:15:42 [Music]
02:15:52 and just a minute I thought we better be prepared for an earlier start we've got two witnesses in the list for tomorrow Henry
02:16:00 Henry yes I'm shaking apart I'm genuinely grateful we have we've got firefighter Beale and fat and crew manager battledore yeah the the I haven't spoken to mr. Kenya at any length about how long he anticipates
02:16:12 any length about how long he anticipates being with with firefighter bill but but I don't think it'll be that long and I will cut my cloth accordingly with chromatic obviously very very unsatisfactory for mr. black from naught
02:16:23 unsatisfactory for mr. black from naught to be part heard tomorrow indeed so could you just try to make sure that he isn't yes and I think we can assume that you can have the full day yes but no
02:16:34 you can have the full day yes but no more in there absolutely right okay thank you very much mr. chairman yes I have to have a point thank you very much we'll resume our first mine tomorrow please thank you
02:16:45 first mine tomorrow please thank you very much
02:16:46 very much [Music]