Evidence from Jill McManus, DCLG Red (Resilience and Emergencies Division) officer, about central government's response, coordination with John Baradel, and challenges at the Westway assistance center.
00:00:23 would you ask mr manas to come back in please thank you
00:00:30 [Music]
00:00:39 all right listen venice you're ready to carry on i am yeah thank you very much yes listen i'd like to take you uh to an email please miss mcmanus um it's clg four
00:00:51 please miss mcmanus um it's clg four zeroes five one nine six
00:01:01 we can see here if we go down to the bottom of page one an email at 115
00:01:14 uh and it's an email from catherine richardson uh to dclg red including uh melanie dawes who was a permanent secretary at dclg at the time is that right yes and
00:01:26 dclg at the time is that right yes and we've already heard about uh dr joe farah the subject line is john baradel's support john baradel is requesting support from dclg and we will want to
00:01:37 support from dclg and we will want to provide whatever is asked in the first instance will second a resilience advisor glo perhaps phil or host is it jose jose yes horse
00:01:50 horse heads of resilience right can you discuss urgently please to identify and send someone i'll be uncomfortable i'll be uncontactable whilst at
00:02:01 i'll be uncontactable whilst at the i believe that's a ministerial meeting don't wait for me that's an email from catherine richardson that we can see on the 16th of june at uh 1 15.
00:02:13 on the 16th of june at uh 1 15. what was your understanding as to why she was asking for why john baradel was asking for support
00:02:21 support um
00:02:22 um this was a request that had been put in through cobra um specifically to get our support on i think two to a couple of issues but one of which
00:02:34 to a couple of issues but one of which was about direct communication between him in his new role as it now was um and and government so was it your understanding that he had assumed a new role as you call it yes at
00:02:48 assumed a new role as you call it yes at this point yes can you tell us about what your understanding was of what that role
00:02:53 role entailed um the fact that he had taken over to uh
00:03:00 uh oversee and coordinate the entire recovery activity
00:03:11 i'd like to take us up to uh go up to the top email of that page at 1 we can see that you respond and in the third line down you say alternatively
00:03:24 third line down you say alternatively if we felt that my two commitments this week out tomorrow and wednesday would not be too much of a stumbling block perhaps this is something i should be doing although i recognize uh this then
00:03:35 doing although i recognize uh this then puts a hole in our heads of resilience arrangements happy to discuss um was this you as you um say in your witness statement that you put yourself forward for the role to go and help and
00:03:46 forward for the role to go and help and support mr baradel is that right yes
00:03:51 and uh it was the case that in fact you were then selected or appointed and you were invited to attend rbkc that day is that correct that's right yes
00:04:02 day is that correct that's right yes did you in fact attend rb casey that day no i got ready to go um but i had a conversation with mark sawyer before i i left actually whilst i was on
00:04:13 before i i left actually whilst i was on the platform waiting for the train to come in
00:04:16 come in and i was advised that because of the unrest that there was around the offices that it wasn't sensible for me to come in at that point and we arranged for me to go in the following day
00:04:27 following day um you say you um spoke to mark sawyer um
00:04:33 um what did was it the case that he gave you an overview of what it was that you were being asked to do when you got to portland house the rbkc headquarters at westminster the following day yes i'd had a conversation
00:04:45 following day yes i'd had a conversation with him earlier once i had been appointed i spoke to him and he gave me that overview
00:04:53 did you form any assessment of the status of the response following your conversation with mr sawyer um
00:05:01 um yes i assessed that following
00:05:05 following john's appointment or the need for john's appointment meant that there was a considerable amount to do and that there was requirement for
00:05:16 there was requirement for a good deal of organization
00:05:24 did mark sawyer provide you insight with how the council was coping no we didn't speak about that specifically we spoke about the role that i would be undertaking
00:05:36 that i would be undertaking and as you say it was agreed that you would join the following day in that case
00:05:40 case um
00:05:42 um you then resumed your role uh within red that afternoon and carried out functions in support of the operations center is that right yes well i'd like to turn to events on
00:05:54 yes well i'd like to turn to events on the saturday then that's the 17th of june
00:05:57 june um you say in your statement we don't need to go to it now but you arrived at portland house at eight o'clock on the 17th of june and you met with mr barathel is that right that's right yes uh you say in your statement and and
00:06:10 uh you say in your statement and and let's go to it this time it's your first witness statement page 14 paragraph 58.
00:06:25 you say this i arrived at portland house at eight a.m i had an early meeting with john baradel where he explained his expectations that i would be managing communications between central government and his team he was extremely
00:06:37 government and his team he was extremely busy and so did not want to be bothered except for key issues so he wanted me to filter what could be dealt with by myself or others and what needed to go to john himself in this sense i would be
00:06:48 to john himself in this sense i would be a gatekeeper i was also there to give an honest insight into government thinking and act as a sounding board for what proposals he would be presenting to central government
00:07:00 central government just pausing there do you know why uh mr baradar wanted an honest insight into government thinking um
00:07:08 um i think that john found it helpful to be able to uh discuss through where um cobra might be um at that time or what the
00:07:19 at that time or what the department might be thinking about and any activity that
00:07:24 that they were proposing so just to get a feeling and understanding uh you've uh described here in this uh section of your paragraph this paragraph of your statement forgive me um is that
00:07:36 of your statement forgive me um is that the role that you then went on to fulfill
00:07:39 fulfill yes in part you say in part which part did you not fulfill no was there additional there was there was additional responsibility can you tell
00:07:50 additional responsibility can you tell us about what those additional responsibilities were um i was also there to provide information back to the department as things moved on also we had a small
00:08:01 as things moved on also we had a small team there and to manage that team and to support other colleagues from the department who were there dealing with housing issues and others so it has
00:08:12 it has quite a few facets to it now you say in your statement that you and lizzie clifford housing strategy at eclg she wasn't a member of red was she no um but you and her were the initial
00:08:25 no um but you and her were the initial presence on the ground is that right yes it is does that mean that you were the initial dclg presence on the ground that day or uh for the first time ever since the 14th of june um no in
00:08:37 the 14th of june um no in in that context so at portland house in the the new setup that john and the team were setting up to deal with the recovery i was she and i were the first
00:08:48 recovery i was she and i were the first ones there for that but they'd only been there since the night before right
00:08:55 right [Applause] what was um miss clifford's role she was there as a as a housing specialist to work alongside the local authority staff
00:09:07 work alongside the local authority staff who were looking at housing issues how both temporary and permanent housing could be provided for those from the tower and the other properties affected now you continued to work at portland
00:09:19 now you continued to work at portland house for the coming days um can you tell us for how long you worked there um i actually worked at portland house through into august
00:09:30 august so i was there for a number of weeks once at portland house you say you used phone calls more than email why was that um
00:09:42 um because that was the easiest method of actually both getting information in and passing it on we did have once i had a team set up we did have the facility to use laptops
00:09:55 we did have the facility to use laptops and
00:09:57 and emails were sent mainly on my behalf rather than by me because i was in and out of meetings a lot so
00:10:05 so effectively we have a little record of your communications thereafter yes well i would like to move on to the 18th of june please um the grenfell tower recovery task
00:10:17 um the grenfell tower recovery task force chaired by the prime minister um was keen to deploy more civil servants to the west way on the 18th of june is that your understanding yes and we can
00:10:29 and we can see here
00:10:30 see here an email clg408798
00:10:47 we can see here an email talking about uh support it's an email sent by you on the 18th of june at 10 41 and it says redeployment of civil servants can we warm up
00:10:59 servants can we warm up ogds what does that stand for sorry that's oh well i've seen the title subject line yes that's other government departments but not deploy until john baradel has
00:11:10 but not deploy until john baradel has confirmed need and we can then see in the body of the email you say uh this is being covered on call currently john b is that john baradel yes will confirm to me what kind
00:11:22 baradel yes will confirm to me what kind of support is helpful doug will also be able to give info on ground can i can i ask you this can you assist us with what it is um that john baradel
00:11:33 us with what it is um that john baradel was asking for at this stage or was it the case that central government wanted to send civil servants in to assist with the response and john barrowdale was trying to organize where the support could best go
00:11:47 organize where the support could best go uh in a sense yes that that's second part so obviously government was very keen to give what help and support it could
00:11:54 could but what john was trying to do was to assess
00:11:57 assess what help might be most useful because obviously
00:12:00 obviously central government civil servants do a very different role on the whole to local authority staff and don't necessarily have that um community-facing experience
00:12:14 um community-facing experience um i'd like to take you next uh to some what's that messages and i appreciate that you are not uh or don't appear on the face of it to be party to these conversations but let's see if you're able to assist
00:12:26 but let's see if you're able to assist us with the subject matter um it's clg3030637
00:12:40 and these are um well first of all were you involved in this uh whatsapp chat no i i didn't have whatsapp on my phone and i doubt that this would have been something that i would have been involved in anyway
00:12:53 would have been involved in anyway this is the um secretary of state's whatsapp group and we can see here some communications between his office and himself and i wonder if we could um look at the first one here from
00:13:05 um look at the first one here from hannah ram she says this hi sajid i've just spoken to gold command and they confirmed that officials in hi-vis vests were on the ground until 2 a.m this morning there
00:13:16 ground until 2 a.m this morning there are currently between 7 to 14 people that have been patrolling the area since seven am this morning and will remain outside
00:13:25 outside and visible until nine pm this seven am to nine pm will continue every day until gold are instructed otherwise that's at 10 43 we can then see a response from the uh
00:13:38 we can then see a response from the uh secretary of state which says we need more not 7 to 14 but 20. all hives all outside all all out inside can we action right away use surge capacity and that
00:13:52 right away use surge capacity and that was sent at 10 48. just pausing there can you help us with what surge capacity is surge capacity is something which is run by
00:14:03 run by her majesty's revenue and customs and it's a team of reasonably junior civil servants who are able to go out
00:14:15 civil servants who are able to go out and support on administrative functions and are used to go into other government departments and many other other things as that sort of to bring numbers up and to deal with
00:14:26 to bring numbers up and to deal with particularly as i say administrative issues
00:14:30 issues right following the chain uh down at 10 52
00:14:34 52 we can see i'll pick this up with gold now
00:14:38 now and then if we could go to
00:14:43 the next message which appears at clg three zeros 30636
00:15:00 we can see here a message at 1102 what is the public phone number that victims or family call for support advice or help how are we getting it out there
00:15:12 there it then goes on hi sajid i've spoken to john baridale and he has a number of concerns about topping up the number of people in jaives vests with central government employees which i've listed below
00:15:23 employees which i've listed below one given the criticisms about the local authority's response to the fire he feels it will be inherently unhelpful to have central government employees deployed outside his view is that this
00:15:34 deployed outside his view is that this approach will draw attention to those criticisms now i appreciate again that you were not involved in this exchange but uh given your role at portland house and the
00:15:45 your role at portland house and the contact that you had with mr baridale at this time can you help us with what his uh his concerns may have been and what criticisms he's referring to here um in in criticisms i think uh he's
00:15:57 um in in criticisms i think uh he's referring to some of the uh community feeling towards um particularly um kensington and chelsea staff
00:16:09 staff and the fact that the local authority appeared not to be held in particularly high regard and that they were big concerns that they were part of the problem rather than being the solution so i
00:16:21 rather than being the solution so i think that's that's what he's referring to the um
00:16:25 to the um the potential community tension that there was with the local authority itself
00:16:31 itself and so
00:16:32 and so are you able to help with why that then extended to central government now i think what he's trying to say there is that that maybe by bringing people from central government in
00:16:43 people from central government in that would would mean that it was should we say not not allowing the people from the local authority to prove that they
00:16:52 that they were actually engaging and doing the job um
00:16:57 um i have another comment on that but you might be coming on to that about the suitableness of civil servants for this particular role well we can deal with that point now what was your what was your view about uh using civil servants
00:17:08 your view about uh using civil servants to be deployed um and it was also a view that was um that i know john was considering as well um is the fact that as as i said earlier civil servants obviously we we have a role some of us
00:17:20 obviously we we have a role some of us have a very outward-facing um part to our role but majority are there doing administrative roles and actually putting what would have been junior
00:17:32 putting what would have been junior civil servants not used to dealing with community in a front-facing community patrolling role um could have been putting
00:17:40 putting uh
00:17:41 uh them in a in a difficult uncomfortable position which would would have been difficult for them to deal with as opposed to having people possibly from other london boroughs not necessarily kensington and chelsea doing a role they
00:17:53 kensington and chelsea doing a role they were much more familiar with with the engagement so i think john's view was very much that it would be important to have local authority people doing that that role rather than people who
00:18:06 that that role rather than people who didn't know the not only didn't know the local community but didn't know local communities per se i'd like to take you next to
00:18:19 clg 303 30565
00:18:28 it's an email at 11 17.
00:18:36 should be at the bottom of the page we can see that it's from joe gillespie one of your colleagues in red at 11 17 on the 18th of june uh to
00:18:47 at 11 17 on the 18th of june uh to mhclg red including yourself and the subject matter is staff on the ground at grenfell and at cac what was your understanding of what cac meant
00:18:59 your understanding of what cac meant um was it the community assistance center yes it would have been yes it says all i have just had a call from hannah in secretary of state's office asking about numbers of staff on the ground
00:19:10 ground secretary of state had heard there are 12 from knc and thought this was inadequate i explained what we were doing to get hmg deployed is that her majesty's government deployed yes and
00:19:22 majesty's government deployed yes and where they should deploy i.e in the assistance center and able to take and own questions note need to make sure they have i.t and phones she was waiting for a call from
00:19:34 phones she was waiting for a call from john baridale to confirm what he wants from government she will call me back and so it is it it does this follow on from the communications that we've seen
00:19:45 from the communications that we've seen before the whatsapp messages that there was a concern by the secretary of state about the numbers a number of people deployed uh on the ground yes i think that what this email does is
00:19:57 yes i think that what this email does is it clarifies um the fact that there there were 12 at that point patrolling outside but there were others inside and i think the discussion had developed the
00:20:08 i think the discussion had developed the fact that
00:20:09 fact that um civil servants would be much more useful
00:20:12 useful inside the center answering questions that people were asking and giving them support on issues and policies that they knew about so
00:20:23 so dft dealing with any transport issues the
00:20:27 the department responsible for utilities dealing with any issues that people might have about bill's gasp whatever it it might be and actually having those in
00:20:39 and actually having those in from government departments making it a much more cohesive support in the center rather than thinking of them as as people who would patrol outside well if we can and scroll up uh to the
00:20:51 well if we can and scroll up uh to the top
00:20:52 top uh we can see the first email in the chain it's from you to your colleagues we can see 18th of june at 11 22
00:21:04 at 11 22 and you say i have spoken to mark sawyer revis there are currently 12 people seven council five red cross highly visible out on ground locally all day touring round area to provide support
00:21:15 touring round area to provide support and information there is active ongoing review on whether this meets the need if more support is required they will put in request i will get more information on
00:21:26 request i will get more information on numbers at the cac as soon as possible can you tell us about your conversation with mark sawyer right well obviously mark um had confirmed the numbers that that were
00:21:37 confirmed the numbers that that were there
00:21:38 there um but as it as is said in the email they were looking at whether actually given the
00:21:47 given the amount of of area that needed to be covered whether actually having more staff
00:21:52 staff would be useful and in fact the request that
00:21:56 that they were likely to put in there would be requests from other local authorities rather than from central government for that particular kind of role uh as i recall um but obviously there
00:22:07 uh as i recall um but obviously there was uh they were looking to gain some clarity on what exactly was needed
00:22:14 and we can um take you
00:22:17 take you to then clg three zeros nine seven no sorry clg three zeros three zero five six eight
00:22:33 which is your we can see there if we go down
00:22:41 at 11 26 so it's the bottom of page one uh tba the hmrc surge team are a bit more nervous about their staff touring the area our ie being outside a
00:22:53 the area our ie being outside a government building or community assistance center they need to escalate this to get permission that this surge staff can be used in this way and so even if secretary of state and gold want this i might not be able to
00:23:05 gold want this i might not be able to deploy the surge team though i hope they might be persuadable so this is a continuation of that conversation as to the use that civil servants could be
00:23:16 servants could be made of on the ground
00:23:23 uh from the 18th of june so uh still on the 18th of june uh doug taylor uh was a member of the red reserve is that right that's right yes and can you tell us
00:23:35 that's right yes and can you tell us please what red reserve is uh red reserve are people who are not full-time members of the resilience and emergencies division but uh in other parts of the department who
00:23:48 uh in other parts of the department who um
00:23:49 um train with us to understand our role and can as it were come in and join us when we need additional support as it happens uh doug had been a member of redd for a
00:24:02 doug had been a member of redd for a number of years and he started in read about the same time that i did well i'd like to take you to his second witness statement please it's clg one
00:24:13 witness statement please it's clg one three zeros nine eight one two
00:24:27 and if we could go down to the bottom of page one
00:24:31 page one this is a second witness statement of doug taylor he's asked a question um after he's asked a question by the inquiry after becoming a red reserve in november 2014 paragraph 11 of your statement could you please assist with
00:24:43 statement could you please assist with what if any training you received since this date up to and including june 2017 if training did take place what did the training entail how long did it last and who provided it
00:24:54 who provided it and his response is at paragraph four i had no formal training after this time i became a resilience in emergencies division red reserve in 2014 after three years working full time in red which
00:25:07 years working full time in red which effectively counted as my training red former employees go on the reserve list for when red need to bring in extra resource on each occasion when i was called to help this served as a
00:25:19 called to help this served as a refresher and can you assist us with whether
00:25:24 whether there was anything unusual about the fact that mr taylor hadn't received training as a red reserve no not particularly the idea behind the training is to
00:25:35 training is to inform those staff who have no background in red and no no experience of resilience about what our work is how we do it and what what their
00:25:46 and what what their possible roles might be doug was already very very familiar with this and was very experienced
00:25:54 and it's right to say that uh mr taylor then went on to lead um at the west way is that right uh yes the um government part of the um support in
00:26:06 um government part of the um support in the west way and let's look at your um statement then please your first uh witness statement at paragraph 98
00:26:22 clg1
00:26:26 we can see there at paragraph 98 you say this starting from sunday the 18th of june and for the rest of that week doug taylor was the lead red reserve on the ground out the west way with other volunteers working alongside
00:26:38 with other volunteers working alongside him his initial role was to help coordinate the central government response and feedback to the red operations centre doug was experienced in working in emergency situations having previously worked full-time for
00:26:49 having previously worked full-time for red as a resilience advisor i would speak with doug a couple of times a day about the government staff deployed at the westway with regard to their roles effectiveness and what further support
00:27:00 effectiveness and what further support was required to give those attending the westway center for help the information they needed so is it the case that in addition to yourself doug taylor and lizzie clifford
00:27:13 yourself doug taylor and lizzie clifford more red staff and reserves arrived at portland house on monday the 19th of june yes
00:27:21 can you assist with why additional support staff were not deployed over the weekend
00:27:28 uh we doug himself came in as a as an additional member over the weekend and from recollection there were a couple of others who came in to
00:27:39 a couple of others who came in to support him but obviously as this was a weekend and staff don't universally work on emergency contracts with us
00:27:50 emergency contracts with us then
00:27:51 then and a lot of work was being done with other government departments to get names prime things over the weekend such that they were in place to put people in place on the monday
00:28:02 place on the monday now you were based at portland house would it be right to describe it as the hub of the llag activity um yes that might be one way of describing it it it was certainly the home
00:28:14 it it was certainly the home of where the main activity would take place yes absolutely that's where you were based that's where mr baridol was based yes
00:28:21 based yes in terms of others uh present on the ground at portland house uh there was mr baradel and some of his team mark sawyer is that right yes alex woodman his ch
00:28:32 is that right yes alex woodman his ch chief executives from other local authorities and their teams is that right yes and our bkc staff as well is that right yes and each of the chief executives had their own area of responsibility with mr baradel in
00:28:45 responsibility with mr baradel in overall charge of gold command is that right yes
00:28:49 right yes how would you describe the working environment at portland house it was
00:28:57 rapid it was i would say it was cohesive but it was very very busy
00:29:05 now what were your observations of mr baradel's leadership of the response at that point he was taking a very strategic overview but he was also
00:29:16 but he was also where necessary very hands-on he had good engagement with each of the the leads for the various areas that were working with him and
00:29:28 and he had good engagement with people from government and obviously those within the local authority itself so he was he was well connected in but
00:29:39 so he was he was well connected in but he was taking that strategic overview which was what he had been asked to do and could you assist us with what the main challenges were in those first few days
00:29:50 days uh there were there were a lot of of challenges um obviously one of the key ones was actually making sure that all of those who had come out of the uh of the tower under the um
00:30:03 uh of the tower under the um finger blocks as they referred to so all of those who had been evacuated were getting the the range of support that they needed through from looking at what accommodation they could
00:30:14 looking at what accommodation they could have how to communicate with them about what support would be provided ensuring that they had the financial support that they needed
00:30:25 support that they needed and of course there was the the key issue going on of the tower itself um the work that was still going on there um to um to deal with the forensic work within
00:30:36 to deal with the forensic work within the
00:30:37 the the tower and the stability of the tower as a as a building as well i'd like to um turn to events on the 20th of june then please if i may
00:30:49 20th of june then please if i may if i could take you to this email at clg 303060
00:31:04 in the bottom email of this
00:31:07 of this thread on the 20th of june at 11 46
00:31:15 so that's on page two on page three forgive me
00:31:20 [Music]
00:31:25 we can see here an email from sebastian james
00:31:29 james on the 20th of june 11 1146 to
00:31:33 to dclg red
00:31:36 dclg red and others within uh government it's an email that the inquiry will be well familiar with by now he makes these uh following observations
00:31:48 he makes these uh following observations paragraph one he says there didn't seem to be any controlling elements in charge of the centre he's talking about the westway center it is our understanding that the local authorities should be running the center
00:32:00 authorities should be running the center but given the particular situation we recognise that there may be a need for more central government oversight of the center should this be dclg
00:32:11 center should this be dclg and i should point out that these are his reflections from the day earlier on the 19th of june at paragraph two the bottom of at the bottom of that paragraph he says no central point for information
00:32:23 central point for information for who to speak to about what issues this leaves victims wandering around the hall
00:32:29 hall a number of times asking individual desks so what can you do for me which is completely unacceptable individual teams and desks have started putting their own signage up but there
00:32:40 putting their own signage up but there is no central signage or support at paragraph three citizens advice were due to act as a triage case caseworker support structure working with victims to ensure that they
00:32:52 working with victims to ensure that they were accompanied throughout the process and could get answers from individual desks in the center does dclg know why this is not happening or whether local authorities are putting additional
00:33:03 authorities are putting additional structures in place to provide support to staff and additional signage paragraph 4 we're deeply concerned that victims are being passed from pillar to post and being told to call lots of
00:33:14 post and being told to call lots of different numbers by lots of different teams
00:33:17 teams we believe we need more coordination and more information about what services are already being provided inside the hall and i'd like to um
00:33:28 and i'd like to um take you next before i do actually ask you a question about these and to clg 3030595
00:33:39 and it should be the second email
00:33:46 this is an email we can see from jillian k on the 20th of june at 12 15 she says thanks please could you let seb know that i would be happy to talk to
00:33:58 know that i would be happy to talk to him asap about his reflections and the dclg role in this and on the role of gold who are running the center i don't think that dc lg can or should step into
00:34:09 think that dc lg can or should step into running the center i am at the west way now i recognize some but not all of seb's reflections here and would like to under understand better timings etcetera
00:34:20 under understand better timings etcetera and then
00:34:21 and then finally if i could take you back to clg three zeros three zero six zero zero it should be the fourth
00:34:32 fourth email
00:34:34 email up from the bottom of the chain at 12 26.
00:34:54 that's it bottom of page one can you see that
00:34:57 that um it's an email from robert mason sent on the
00:35:01 on the 20th of june 1226 to jillian k and the grenfell tower team and dclg red as it was them it says um jillian thanks you may know already
00:35:12 um jillian thanks you may know already as you're there i've discussed with doug and he is considering the detailed points seb has made i've also asked jill mcmanus to discuss discreetly with john baradel as
00:35:23 discuss discreetly with john baradel as overall gold to get his reflections on this and to take on how much grip is that paul nizjarek nazareth nazarak and the chief executive of the london
00:35:35 and the chief executive of the london borough of ealing has on the overall running of the center kate head has discussed with seb and caroline winter we'll ring you now with seb's more detailed um criticism
00:35:46 detailed um criticism uh in your first statement if we could uh go to that please page 21 paragraph 85
00:36:01 um you say you had a conversation with john regarding the feedback i attended a humanitarian assistance group meeting at portland house where it was agreed that representatives from local authority
00:36:12 representatives from local authority gold would go over to the center to make their own assessment and report back to john barretta to give him confidence that all on the ground was as it should be i fed this back to jillian k in an
00:36:24 be i fed this back to jillian k in an email at 1 21.
00:36:29 can you tell us please whether you did speak with mr baradar i did yes i gave him a full coverage of the information that we'd
00:36:41 coverage of the information that we'd received and the concerns that had been raised
00:36:45 raised and
00:36:46 and his view was that the best way to find out what the reality was was to send someone down to give a direct report back to him on the specific issues that had been raised there
00:36:57 raised there and
00:36:57 and perhaps i could take you to this it's gol 401690
00:37:06 this is a london local authority log book
00:37:09 book for the 20th of june and it's at entry 75 on page 73 on page 3.
00:37:22 it says there at uh
00:37:31 entry 73
00:37:37 sorry if we could go down to page seven
00:37:43 and it says uh joe mcmanus reports that they
00:37:47 they have reports that the center does not seem structured with eling in charge is that right yes
00:37:59 can you tell us about what the issues with the structure were that you were aware of well they were as um we were referring at this point to that information that we'd had from
00:38:10 information that we'd had from sorry i can't remember what his his surname was uh in his report james
00:38:15 james james
00:38:16 james so that was the information that we were working from at that point but
00:38:22 but i also
00:38:24 i also was obviously in contact with doug taylor who also had been speaking to julian k
00:38:30 julian k over at the center and he was also looking at the issues there and how they might improve things
00:38:41 forgive me you may have answered this already but but who was it that then went down to the center to to view what was happening i have to say i've been trying to remember the name of the person but it was someone quite senior
00:38:53 person but it was someone quite senior in
00:38:55 in in
00:38:55 in one of the authorities that was working on humanitarian assistance not sure it might have been caroline downes or um
00:39:04 um there is another lady that it could have been
00:39:07 been we can see here that uh entry 75 it says carolyn to visit the center this afternoon does that help your yes it would have been i did have a note of carolyn's name but i also had somebody
00:39:20 carolyn's name but i also had somebody else's name down against a similar action and can you assist with when it was that she went um she went on the day that it was raised she literally went out as i recall after
00:39:31 she literally went out as i recall after the meeting to go over and have a look
00:39:37 would you agree that notwithstanding uh the fact that mr baradel had taken over um charge of the running of the westway centre and indeed the of the gold operation at that stage that there were
00:39:49 operation at that stage that there were still issues with the response on the ground
00:39:52 ground i think that is very fair to say um i would comment that given the
00:39:58 given the um
00:40:00 the the size and the extent of this and given that it um as we now know didn't get off to the best start actually then making um a
00:40:13 actually then making um a good move forward would always have been a difficult thing to do so yes things weren't were not perfect and certainly there are issues which i know that others have given evidence on about how
00:40:25 others have given evidence on about how things happen during the week that weren't as everyone would wish they would be but it was
00:40:32 was there was a lot of ground to cover and a lot to do
00:40:37 let me ask ask you this miss mcmanus how how do you think looking back uh and having an overall view of dclg's uh response how would you
00:40:48 response how would you say dclg red responded in the first seven days after the fire i think
00:40:54 i think red did what it usually usually does in standing up quickly
00:41:04 and engaged the department um more widely um [Music]
00:41:11 [Music] fairly
00:41:12 fairly quickly as well in the fact that others from the department were pulled in quite well
00:41:17 well i would say that obviously we've identified issues about some of the speed of reporting which obviously are areas that we would have wanted to improve on but in general terms our engagement and
00:41:30 but in general terms our engagement and the activity that we undertook i think was
00:41:34 was was suitable and relevant to the situation
00:41:37 situation well thank you miss mcmanus those are the questions that i have prepared for you
00:41:43 right well uh mr manners at this stage we have to have a short break so that council can check that she's actually covered all the things she needs to cover and also to allow others who are
00:41:54 cover and also to allow others who are following the proceedings from elsewhere to suggest questions that perhaps we ought to put to you so we'll rise now we'll come back at 10 to 3
00:42:05 we'll come back at 10 to 3 unless you tell us that you need more time you can ask the usher to come and tell us if you do and then at 10 to 3 we'll see if there are any more questions we need to put to you all right thank you so for
00:42:16 put to you all right thank you so for the moment would you go with the usher please thank you
00:42:29 well we'll say ten to three and if you need more time just tell us all right thank you
00:51:07 would you ask mr mcmanus to come back in please thank you
00:51:23 right missing parents we'll see if there's any more questions for you okay yes mr montoya um well just one question um is there anything you feel we have not covered um that you would like to say that is relevant to the inquiries
00:51:34 say that is relevant to the inquiries investigation
00:51:39 not that you haven't covered i don't think no thank you well then all that's left for me to say is and thank you very much uh for coming to give evidence today and for us assisting the inquiry thank you and it's right that i should
00:51:51 thank you and it's right that i should thank you as well on behalf of all three of us on the panel here it's been very interesting to hear what you have to tell us i think i understand a bit better than i did before all this rather complex stuff about resilience so
00:52:03 rather complex stuff about resilience so thank you very much indeed we're grateful to you for coming giving up the time to come and give us your evidence and thank you very much and now you're free to go
00:52:13 to go thank you you're very welcome thank you very much
00:52:25 uh thank you very much mrs monotron now we have
00:52:28 we have no more witnesses today is that right that's right it's dr joe farah tomorrow we shall have another witness tomorrow yes very well well we'll break at that point and resume please at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning
00:52:40 tomorrow morning thank you very much
00:52:48 you