Dr Joe Farah, former director general for local government at DCLG, gives evidence about the department's response to Grenfell and oversight of local authority recovery efforts.
00:00:28 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing uh today we're going to hear from a witness who at the time of the fire was a senior uh officer in the department for communities and local
00:00:41 department for communities and local government yes m m well good morning Mr chairman good morning members of the panel could I please call Dr Joe
00:00:57 Farah good morning Dr Farah good morning you're going to take the oath I think is that right that's right uh there should be a testament on the desk be by you would you take it in your right hand and read repeat the words on
00:01:09 right hand and read repeat the words on the screen please I swear by almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much now please sit down and make yourself comfortable thank
00:01:25 you yes M MRA good morning Dr Farah um can I can I start by thanking thanking you very much for attending to give evidence to the inquiry today uh just a few words by way of introduction if I
00:01:36 few words by way of introduction if I may um could I ask you please to keep your voice up so that we can hear you clearly uh it also helps not to nod or Shake but to say yes or no because nods and shakes don't get picked up on the
00:01:47 and shakes don't get picked up on the transcript if any of my questions are unclear um please say so and I will happily rephrase the question lastly if you feel you need a break at any time please do let us know is that okay that's fine thanks H now you have made
00:01:59 that's fine thanks H now you have made made uh two statements to the inquiry and they will appear on the screen in front of you uh taking you to your first witness statement please that's cg3 30414 uh we can see there on the right
00:02:11 30414 uh we can see there on the right hand side it's dated the 14th of March 2019 uh there's a signature on page 23 is that yours yes is um I'd like to take
00:02:22 is that yours yes is um I'd like to take you to your second statement now that's cg3
00:02:27 cg3 30781 and we can see it's St the 2nd of November 2020 uh there's a signature on page
00:02:38 seven is that your signature yes it is have you had an opportunity to read each of your statements recently yes I have can you confirm that they are true to the best of your knowledge yes they are
00:02:50 the best of your knowledge yes they are um the focus of my questions today Dr Farah will be in uh the following three parts uh firstly your background and roll at the time of the fire uh secondly your oversight of the resilience and
00:03:02 your oversight of the resilience and emergencies division red which we heard about yesterday uh from your former colleague Jill McManus and uh thirdly and finally your actions and the actions of dclg in response in the days after
00:03:14 of dclg in response in the days after the
00:03:15 the fire um so first turning then to your um role at the time of the fire um you were director general for local government and public services at the department
00:03:26 and public services at the department for communities and local government as it was known then is that right that's right
00:03:30 right right at the inquiry heard evidence uh yesterday that the D Department dclg um changed its name in 2018 to become known as the ministry of housing communities
00:03:42 as the ministry of housing communities and local government mhclg and it then uh subsequently changed its name to the department for leveling up housing and communities DLC I'm going to refer to it as dclg
00:03:54 DLC I'm going to refer to it as dclg during the course of my questions okay thank
00:03:58 thank you at the time of the fire you were part of DG's leadership team is that right that's right uh you reported to Melanie D who was then the permanent
00:04:09 Melanie D who was then the permanent Secretary of dclg is that right that's right and you are now the second permanent secretary at the ministry of justice and chief executive of hm prisons and probation service is that
00:04:20 prisons and probation service is that right that's right I'd like to um ask you about your roles that you were involved in before your time with dclg if I may um is it correct that before um Your
00:04:33 um is it correct that before um Your Role at dclg you were chief executive of B and Northeast sumerset Council between March 2012 and August 2016 I was uh before that you were chief
00:04:45 2016 I was uh before that you were chief executive of the Bridgend County burough Council between October 2006 and March 2012 is that right um yes I believe I started in briend in January um not not
00:05:00 started in briend in January um not not the previous October that but that's when I was appointed uh you had a decade's worth of experience of being a chief executive of a local council is that right that's right uh in those chief executive roles
00:05:12 right uh in those chief executive roles did you have a good working knowledge of resilience procedures for those areas in which you were a chief executive I
00:05:21 did now in your um first witness statement I'd like to take you to it please uh page two paragraph 9
00:05:36 uh you say here as a result of my responsibility for red I was required to have a broad understanding of the terms of the Civil contingencies act 2004 the Civil contingencies act 2004 contingency
00:05:49 Civil contingencies act 2004 contingency planning regulations 2005 and the associated guidance although I would be advised by my specialists in the red team is that right that's right and as part of your role um as director general
00:06:00 part of your role um as director general for local government and public services at the time did one of those responsibilities include oversight of dclg Reds uh DG's resilience and emergencies division known as
00:06:11 emergencies division known as red it it did um but I should explain the structure so um uh I was the director General um underneath me was Julian Kay who was the director and then
00:06:22 Julian Kay who was the director and then Katherine richardon who was the senior civil servant responsible for red
00:06:31 um turning then to the um function of red uh the inquiry has already heard evidence uh from Miss McManus yesterday um a who was a resilience adviser um as
00:06:42 um a who was a resilience adviser um as to the function of red but in short would you agree that one of Red's functions was as a conduit between central government and local responders when it came to responding to emergencies yes a cond ala on
00:06:56 emergencies yes a cond ala on point well I'd like to U move on to events on the 14th of June if I may um taking matters as chronologically as best I can uh you were first alerted to
00:07:09 best I can uh you were first alerted to the fire by an email from Jill mcmanis who was Duty head of resilience that night at 5:55 on the 14th of June is that right that's right and if we could go to CLG 30
00:07:22 30446 I believe we should be able to see that notification that you received
00:07:32 is this it uh yes I believe so we can see it's uh an an email at 555 from Miss mcmanis um I'd like to take you um further down
00:07:45 um I'd like to take you um further down the page please to the fifth paragraph down uh where it says this there are suggestions in the media that the cause of the fire could be neglect of health
00:07:56 of the fire could be neglect of health and safety legislation grenfell Action Group have suggested that a major fire was averted in 2013 when faulty wiring caused power surges the block is owned by the local
00:08:07 by the local Authority um did you consider or anticipate at that early stage that there would be any problems with rbkc leading on the recovery given that it was owner of the Tower and media reports
00:08:20 was owner of the Tower and media reports that were circulating at the time suggesting the fire could have been caused by
00:08:25 caused by neglect so no I didn't um I didn't at that time and anticipate any issues with the local Authority and I also knew that the local Authority was part of the London residence uh operation which had
00:08:38 London residence uh operation which had responded to many um local emergencies we'll come on to talk about uh the resilience Arrangements uh in due course was it something that you uh then
00:08:50 course was it something that you uh then went on to consider the the the conflict between the council owning the building and the media reports that were circulating at the time is it something that you then went on to consider after
00:09:01 that you then went on to consider after so not not personally um no I was very much focused on uh the local Authority um and the recovery
00:09:13 period we can see here under the issues for dclg um that reference is made to fire policy and dclg building regulations uh there doesn't and there
00:09:24 regulations uh there doesn't and there isn't any reference here to any resourcing considerations for the Department would you have expected at this early stage there to be some consideration of the impact uh that the incident would have on resourcing for
00:09:36 incident would have on resourcing for for for red so not at this early stage um in fact uh the the way that well the responsibilities of red as I say were really a liaison point between um the
00:09:48 really a liaison point between um the local response and central government um and uh they were Reser to be that the aison
00:09:55 aison point was it the role of red to to be responsible for supporting the local Authority response
00:10:06 no uh you emailed uh Miss McManus and we can go to that now at clg4
00:10:19 2859 it's the second email on the page at 705
00:10:30 and you um say this thanks Jill I presume we will also be involved in any recovery issues we are due to brief the Secretary of State this morning on another issue but we can make sure he is
00:10:41 another issue but we can make sure he is updated as well thanks to Red for responding so quickly um she then responds to you we can go up uh to to an email at 707 saying Morning Joe yes this
00:10:54 email at 707 saying Morning Joe yes this will almost certainly be a local Authority Le recovery will keep you up dated what other type of recovery could there have been if not a local Authority
00:11:05 there have been if not a local Authority Le one so um so for for an incident like this I would have assumed it would be a local Authority LED recovery um given the the nature of um the incident so um
00:11:17 the the nature of um the incident so um in emergency situations that uh the incident is split into two a response phase which in this case was uh led by the the umg
00:11:29 the the umg Al reporting into their home office and then there'll be a recovery phase which is the which looks at the longer term recovery and um given the nature of of this incident and the impact um on
00:11:41 this incident and the impact um on individuals in the community I assumed it would be a local Authority Leed recovery so um as director general for uh local government and public services I I I would I would have been concerned
00:11:54 I I I would I would have been concerned to make sure that if the local Authority was taking over the recovery phase from in this instance the police that they were equipped to do that and that's why I was asking that question you you could
00:12:05 I was asking that question you you could see here that you say I presume we will be involved in any recovery issues that's the second email on the page at 705 C can you explain what did you mean by that yes so um actually a choice has
00:12:17 by that yes so um actually a choice has to be made in terms of which um which government Department leads recovery um I assumed it would be a role for us if it's a local Authority Le recovery then it would tended to be the department who
00:12:28 it would tended to be the department who then the lead government department at the time of the fire the response phase we weren't the lead government department so um I needed to ascertain and this was the nature of the question whether the uh recovery phase would
00:12:40 whether the uh recovery phase would would move from the home office um to the department because that would involve us um then making sure we had the adequate structures in place to oversee
00:12:56 that I'd like to um take you to your first witness statement please paragraph 24 Page
00:13:13 6 we can see that paragraph 24 you say at the same time it was inevitable that rbkc would have a central role in the relief effort given the location of the gremal Tower and its residents in the
00:13:25 gremal Tower and its residents in the circumstances my expectation was that either rbkc or the London resilience partnership would lead the local uh would lead the recovery effort just want
00:13:36 would lead the recovery effort just want to um ask you about that is this a view that you formed at the time or is this a reflection that you've had since whilst drafting your statement No it's I think
00:13:49 drafting your statement No it's I think you can see from the email with um Jill that this was um this was a consideration at the time and an assumption at the time when you refer to the uh local
00:14:01 time when you refer to the uh local resilience partnership potentially leading the recovery effort can you assist us what your understanding would be as to how that would be done yes so in London there was um and I think youve
00:14:13 in London there was um and I think youve heard from other witnesses that there was a London resilience partnership um which uh supported local authorities in terms of leading major incidents um uh
00:14:24 terms of leading major incidents um uh actually tended to play a leading role uh in my experience in incidents in in London so I would have expected that either rbkc um or the London resilience partnership would have had a heavy
00:14:36 partnership would have had a heavy involvement given given the nature um of of the go given the circumstances and what process or mechanism uh do you understand uh they
00:14:47 mechanism uh do you understand uh they would be using to lead the recovery effort um so I would have expected um a local Authority gold uh uh response to
00:14:59 local Authority gold uh uh response to to be set up um and then you that used to lead the recovery effort and bringing in other partners as as necessary is that the London local Authority gold Arrangements that the
00:15:10 Authority gold Arrangements that the inquiry has heard about the LG yes so that is one option I mean obviously rbkc could have chosen to set up their own gold Arrangements that I hadn't envisaged they will do given the
00:15:22 hadn't envisaged they will do given the strength they would do given the strength of the uh support available in London so so you mentioned two options there one would be a gold rbkc gold the second would be an LLG gold yes so so
00:15:36 second would be an LLG gold yes so so for example as um as a local Authority chief executive when when I led um on incidents um then we I would set up a local Authority gold not having access
00:15:47 local Authority gold not having access to the same um support um being in a different area of the country but there would be a gold Arrangement set up that would pull in other partners as necessary to to make sure that um the
00:15:58 necessary to to make sure that um the recovery effort that continues to be led well when you say um pulling other partners can you just expand upon what what would your understanding be of how
00:16:09 what would your understanding be of how an LL gold would operate would they take over a response for example or would it be more Nuance than that so they would take over the recovery phase the response phase would come to an end the police or um or whoever was um the
00:16:23 police or um or whoever was um the response gold would hand over um to the local Authority gold and then you would be responsible for leading the recovery effort in the area sometimes that involves other partners so for example
00:16:35 involves other partners so for example um I was involved in um some very actually tragic um deaths in in briend where where I led the goal but brought in health and and the police because we were very much working in Partnership um
00:16:48 were very much working in Partnership um to support the community and brienda that time so so would it be the case was it your understanding that one local Authority would take over uh from another local Authority
00:16:59 another local Authority no my understanding isn't that one local Authority would take over from another Authority um actually the the local Authority would take over from a different Authority so so if the
00:17:10 different Authority so so if the response phase was there by the police then local Authority gold would may take that over if that was the decision in the recovery phase I think in London there are a different there were different arrangements so it could be
00:17:22 different arrangements so it could be that London resilience played a bigger role in terms of the local Authority gold as as we in fact we we eventually saw in uh Kensington and
00:17:35 Chelsea and I'd like to uh move on if I may in time to round about not not too much further on though to 7:15 on on the 14th of June um you had a conversation
00:17:47 14th of June um you had a conversation uh with Melanie dors the permanent secretary um in your first witness statement page 8 paragraph 20
00:18:04 paragraph
00:18:07 20 um you say that you um spoke to miss stors at around 7:45 um in her statement uh she says that she believes you spoke to one another at 7:15 it may be that there's
00:18:20 another at 7:15 it may be that there's little in it but are you able to assist us with whether there was a conversation at 7 7:15 and another at 7:45 or was there just one conversation at some point at 7:00 no there was there was one
00:18:31 point at 7:00 no there was there was one one conversation between 7:00 and 8:00 um probably my memory um but it was there was one
00:18:41 conversation I'd like to take you um to uh M store's statement please CLG 3030
00:18:50 3030 653 and if we could go to page
00:18:56 eight we can see here at paragraph 20 and it's the third line down I recall messaging my private secretary at around 7:15 and ringing Joe Farah to discuss how the department would need to be
00:19:08 how the department would need to be involved it was clear that the immediate response was for the Emergency Services and other local responders the recovery would be led locally but I was clear that the department would almost certainly coordinate The Wider central
00:19:20 certainly coordinate The Wider central government support that would be needed to support recovery from an incident of this
00:19:26 this scale did you uh both discuss how the department would be involved yes uh yes we did and we certainly uh discussed that the department would have a a role in the
00:19:39 department would have a a role in the recovery um uh part of the of of the management of the incident and when you mention role in the recovery could you just help us with with telling us what
00:19:50 just help us with with telling us what would that entail yeah so um as as I said earlier I think as the uh emergency moved from response to recovery our understanding was that this was
00:20:01 our understanding was that this was likely to be a local Authority Le recovery as the department for communities and local government um we felt that we would probably be the lead government department but if not we
00:20:12 government department but if not we would still have a big role being responsible um for local government at that
00:20:18 that time what does it mean to be the lead government Department in recovery though what would that actually mean that you would be doing so that means that you would be um the you um so you would pull
00:20:30 would be um the you um so you would pull together other government departments would be the lead department on any ministerial group um would be uh would be the first point of contact for
00:20:46 government would it mean that you would be operational in any way on the ground um no it's not no not necessarily that that was not um normally our role unless there was a decision that central
00:20:58 unless there was a decision that central government should be um involved operationally but our our our essentially our role is to make sure that the recovery effort um was operating
00:21:12 effectively uh whilst we um have this part of your witness state statement in front of us um well forgive me let's actually go to your witness statement um your witness statement page five
00:21:23 your witness statement page five paragraph 20 please
00:21:29 it's the uh last sentence there we can see Melanie dors indicated that she knew Nicholas Holgate during her time at hm Treasury and would contact him to offer government support is that right yes
00:21:41 government support is that right yes that's that's right um we I remember discussing with Melanie that that um we both felt it would be good to make sure that the chief executive um of rbkc uh
00:21:54 that the chief executive um of rbkc uh knew that he he could um reach out to government for support if felt that was necessary as she had an existing relationship she said that she would contact
00:22:05 him now moving on in time at 9:00 on the 14th of June you received a briefing from Katherine Richardson as you've already mentioned the deputy director of red uh which included the leadership and
00:22:16 red uh which included the leadership and coordination of the local response that's what you um say in your statement can you assist us with what uh specifically you did to discuss uh the leadership and coordination of the
00:22:27 leadership and coordination of the response
00:22:30 um yes from from my my memory uh we we discussed the um the scg uh and the fact that red was attending scg meetings and I believe she
00:22:42 attending scg meetings and I believe she gave me a report back on issues that had come from scg meetings uh was it clear to you who was leading the response in relation to humanitarian assistance for
00:22:54 relation to humanitarian assistance for example uh no not at that point
00:23:00 was there any discussion at that stage about whether the local Authority would be able to deal with the humanitarian response or if they needed any greater
00:23:09 support I I'm not sure um there there was discussion about whether the local Authority um needed support but I'm not sure if it was at that
00:23:21 point well we've um mentioned Mr Holgate and the pre-existing relationship that you mentioned Miss dors with him whilst working at hm treasury um I'd like to
00:23:32 working at hm treasury um I'd like to take you to please CLG
00:23:39 42873 this is an email at at 7 Minutes P 9 sent by the office of Miss doors to uh Mr Holgate and we can see that your
00:23:51 Mr Holgate and we can see that your office was copied into that uh and it says this dear Nick I just wanted to express how shocked and sad I was to hear about the the terrible fire at grenfell Tower this morning we are ready to help however we can from central
00:24:03 to help however we can from central government Joe Farah from dclg is already leading on this obviously today you will be dealing with the immediate response but do let us know as and when it is helpful if there is anything else
00:24:14 it is helpful if there is anything else we can
00:24:17 do were you leading on central government support to rbkc at this time that this email was sent um so I I was um I think what Melanie was referring to is that um at
00:24:30 Melanie was referring to is that um at the time uh I was uh involved in pulling together any information um that we had and looking at um the uh central government response but I should say
00:24:42 government response but I should say that there was a different command structure put in place in central government it might be worth explaining that I know you will have had it in other witness statements but but at the time um the response was being was the
00:24:55 time um the response was being was the lead government Department was the home office um
00:24:58 office um very shortly um into into the incident a ministerial an ad hoc ministerial group was set up that the lead department on that group um was the home office in um
00:25:11 that group um was the home office in um the department for communities and local government um Melanie uh attended those ministerial meetings and um Helen mnara who I believe you also had a statement from was uh the lead for dclg in terms
00:25:24 from was uh the lead for dclg in terms of because a number of the issues related to housing um and rehousing and uh the TMO and all of that was in um Helen's uh Helen's area of
00:25:36 Helen's uh Helen's area of responsibility so my responsibility essentially was about um uh the scg and red and whether there were any um requests for help from central
00:25:47 requests for help from central government through that route so uh but I would be the lead contact for chief Executives given my role so I believe that's what Melanie would was referring
00:25:59 that's what Melanie would was referring to so if Nicholas Holgate had wanted to reach out to somebody she was essentially telling him he should um contact me so it it wasn't necessarily that there was anything specific that
00:26:10 that there was anything specific that you had done at that point or that you were preparing to do um to to make an offer of support to rbkc for example no but I would be the lead contact for him and I think that's that's what Melanie
00:26:21 and I think that's that's what Melanie is referring to um at 9:30 together with Katherine Richardson and Jillian Kay you met with uh the secretary of state is that right yes I believe there are
00:26:32 that right yes I believe there are others at that meeting as well uh was this the first meeting with the Secretary of State regarding the fire it was the first meeting I attended I believed he'd been um updated
00:26:44 attended I believed he'd been um updated separately but possibly by his private office I'd like to um take you to paragraph 28 of your first statement that's page six please
00:27:03 uh we can see there in the second sentence we discussed amongst other issues the local response and the support that central government could offer um just pausing there can you
00:27:14 offer um just pausing there can you assist us with what was specifically discussed regarding the local response and the support that central government could offer um so from my memory um it was mostly about um housing and the
00:27:27 was mostly about um housing and the support that Central government might offer there was also uh a question about funding um and whether local the local Authority um could access funding we
00:27:38 Authority um could access funding we have a a scheme to allow local authorities to access funding um uh is that the B and that's the bellwind
00:27:50 funding but I do believe there will have been a minute of that meeting could I just invite you to um look at Jill and K's first witness statement um that's
00:28:01 K's first witness statement um that's CLG
00:28:03 CLG 3030
00:28:06 430 page four at paragraph
00:28:13 15 um she says as well as noting what was understood about the fire and those affected by it I noted that there had been no request for government assistance at this point from the scg or
00:28:24 assistance at this point from the scg or directly from the local Authority I noted that the London borrow of Hammersmith and Fulham had offered Mutual Aid to the RO bar of Kensington and Chelsea rbkc from the discussion I noted that my colleagues in housing
00:28:35 noted that my colleagues in housing within the department might need to step in later to help with rehousing and she uh refers us to her note of that meeting which I'd like to take you to it's cg3
00:28:53 30410 we can see there uh 14th of June it says 9:00 a.m. Secretary of SOS Secretary of State briefing then there's in a line and underneath it it says scg
00:29:05 in a line and underneath it it says scg dclg attended no specific requests for government I think that says also speaking h&f Hammer Smith and Fulham REM Mutual
00:29:18 Mutual Aid does that Accord with your recollection of what was said at the meeting yeah yes I mean that that's right there were no specific requests from government for the scg I mean U I
00:29:29 from government for the scg I mean U I don't know if it would help if I um just briefly expand on how how the scgs operate so um the scgs bring together um all of the local responders they're
00:29:40 all of the local responders they're they're chaired um structured uh in a in a very uh specific and organized way there's an opportunity for everybody to feed in requests of help red attend that meeting um and uh as a uh any um any
00:29:56 meeting um and uh as a uh any um any person in that meeting can and request help from from government and that will be fed back to um either the uh well to the lead government um department and
00:30:07 the lead government um department and certainly when I've been involved as a chief executive in in um in incidents that the presence of red is very visible and the question is asked is there any uh in my experience the question has
00:30:18 uh in my experience the question has always been asked is there any help needed from central government or anything that you're you are struggling with so um know they that that's your expectation
00:30:30 know they that that's your expectation of what would ordinarily be asked but you don't know whether that was asked in this instance is well we were we were it was reported back from from Red that there was no specific requests um from government I I I assume that was
00:30:44 government I I I assume that was accurate and I'm sure it would be accurate were you aware of any other um offers of assistance that rbkc had received at that time um not specifically but I would
00:30:56 time um not specifically but I would have expected um that uh London resilience would have been in contact with the council and London resilience um were able to bring in mutual aid from
00:31:09 um were able to bring in mutual aid from um uh different authorities in fact it was unu it was unusual um that Hammer Smith and Fulham were offering Mutual Aid and not it would usually come I I believe through the London resilience
00:31:22 believe through the London resilience Forum but in this case Hammer Smith and Fulham are are very close to Kensington and chelse so um would would have probably made uh uh an offer direct um
00:31:35 probably made uh uh an offer direct um you mentioned uh earlier a readout I'm going to take you to um I believe a readout of the briefing it's clg4
00:31:48 2915 and if we could well let
00:31:53 me identify that this is a an email at if I could take you to CLG 4
00:32:07 2915 that's what I've got on the screen have you page two
00:32:15 ah we can see here um at the very bottom of page one on the 14th of June 11 uh 54 um there's a readout and if we go
00:32:26 um there's a readout and if we go further down onto page two we can see actions for Catherine um Katherine R Katherine Richardson red uh please could you draft a background briefing on bellwind funding and how
00:32:38 briefing on bellwind funding and how this has been used in the past grateful if you could also pass on the readout of the Strategic coordination group meeting that took place uh this morning um we can see there that there is an action
00:32:50 can see there that there is an action for Katherine Richardson um we can see that there are a number of other actions um recorded um would it be fair to say that there was a wide Ambit of issues
00:33:02 that there was a wide Ambit of issues that the department was dealing with uh yeah that's absolutely fair so I Katherine Richardson and red uh really act as the liais on point um with the scg but this was um this incident um
00:33:15 scg but this was um this incident um obviously involved a a fire and housing and um there were a number of issues related to um to the fire that would have been that were dealt within a
00:33:26 have been that were dealt within a different part of the department um and I think they will have been covered in uh Helen matar and Sally Randall's
00:33:33 Randall's statements um now we've mentioned uh the the bellwind uh scheme is it right that that's for emergency financial assistance uh for local authorities to meet uninsurable costs that they've
00:33:44 meet uninsurable costs that they've incurred uh when responding to an emergency is that right yeah um effectively the mechanics of money yes um we can see here that there aren't any actions arising out of what central
00:33:57 actions arising out of what central government could be doing what your department what the department could be doing uh to support the local Authority would you agree with that yes there there are no actions and there was C
00:34:08 there are no actions and there was C certainly no request um from the local Authority for
00:34:14 support what about consideration uh for um replacement passports for example um what about uh the number of people that would be displaced as a result of the fire was
00:34:26 displaced as a result of the fire was any consideration given to that so um I remember conversations about people um being displaced as the fire that was being dealt with um by in another director general area but there
00:34:39 another director general area but there were certainly conversations um about
00:34:44 that can you assist us with what the reason was for the Minister asking for the SEC uh for the scg minutes um so I I presume um well
00:34:56 minutes um so I I presume um well Katherine Richardson at the meeting uh gave a readout of what happened at the Strategic um coordination group I believe the minister thought it would be happy to um helpful to have the note um
00:35:07 happy to um helpful to have the note um for our records I think that was that was good practice there was nothing unusual about that was no absolutely not and um actually uh as I say good practice to make sure that we have a a
00:35:18 practice to make sure that we have a a note of the relevant
00:35:22 meetings I'd like to um show you please um go to the Secretary of State's witness statement it his first witness statement CLG
00:35:33 statement CLG 130
00:35:43 9728 and if we could go to page two
00:35:49 please paragraph 7 he says this we were aware from the start that it would require all the the energy we could give both in terms of direct help and in terms of coordinating
00:36:01 direct help and in terms of coordinating the response across government in my view it is the job of central government following a disaster like this to be more to do more than we would normally do there was a significant emotional
00:36:12 do there was a significant emotional element people had lost their loved ones their homes and all their belongings at a time like that they should be able to look to government they should be able to have very high expectations of what
00:36:23 to have very high expectations of what government will deliver he goes on to say I also felt that any Council involved in such a catastrophic event would soon be overwhelmed and would need support including support that only
00:36:35 support including support that only government is in a position to give we wanted to ensure that support was given sooner rather than later which is why we offered help as soon as we did from the morning of the 14th of
00:36:47 morning of the 14th of June do you consider that the Department's response at this time so 9:30 at the time that this briefing was going on uh was aligned with this statement by the secretary of State in
00:36:58 statement by the secretary of State in his in his statement yes I I believe it was aligned absolutely I mean we we um we in an incident like this you would expect um the local responders to be asking for
00:37:10 the local responders to be asking for help and we'd identified for example um the issue of funding um in other parts of the department um which which I'm not really qualified to to speak to but I'm sure there will have been other um but
00:37:22 sure there will have been other um but issues that the department felt that they could and and would want to help with um but in my area certainly the funding which which came under my remit we we we were looking at proactively to
00:37:34 we we we were looking at proactively to make sure that we were ready to give um emergency funding support um if if and when
00:37:43 needed you say you were looking at that can you assist us with when that funding support the bellwind scheme was actually put into effect um actually I can't I would have to look at the notes but I
00:37:54 would have to look at the notes but I remember from that meeting um the work was going on in the local government Finance team to to make sure that that support was available if I was to suggest that it was a few days later would you disagree with that uh probably
00:38:07 would you disagree with that uh probably not um I'd like to move to um contact that you had with Mr Holgate on the morning of the 14th of June uh we can see here
00:38:16 see here cg3
00:38:25 30460 we should be able to see here an email that your office sent at 9:27 on the 14th of June um on your behalf asking for a
00:38:37 June um on your behalf asking for a mobile number for the chief executive of Kensington and Chelsea uh were you trying to uh speak with Mr hallgate um I wanted to send him a message so I was aware that Melanie dors had contacted
00:38:48 aware that Melanie dors had contacted him separately and and we'd agreed uh that she would I knew that she had said that um I was his contact in in government so I wanted to make sure that he had my my mobile number and was able
00:39:01 he had my my mobile number and was able to contacted me at any point um you say in your statement we don't need uh to go to it now but you sent him a text message to arrange a time to speak uh
00:39:12 message to arrange a time to speak uh you recall saying that the department was in contact with rbkc and offering support is that right yes that's right did you say did you say we think you need support that only central
00:39:23 need support that only central government is in a position to offer you so not not at that point I was um at that point trying to um get a hold of him actually and and to give him my contact
00:39:34 contact details um I believe I also asked my office to contact his office to set up a time for us to speak uh it's right to say you didn't receive a reply to this message did you
00:39:46 receive a reply to this message did you I don't I don't remember receiving a reply did you attempt to contact Mr Holgate again on the 14th of June uh I believe my office contacted his office to uh ARR of time for us to
00:39:59 to uh ARR of time for us to speak did you in fact speak with him on the 14th uh I believe it was the 15th I spoke to
00:40:06 him um you mentioned earlier about inquiries into rbkc um I just like to look look at those uh now um at 1:42 on the 14th of
00:40:19 those uh now um at 1:42 on the 14th of June uh your secretary contacted Alex Powell who is responsible for cating information on local authorities uh to request background information on rbkc and we can see this at CLG
00:40:31 and we can see this at CLG 3030
00:40:35 414 this is your statement at paragraph 30 that you refer to it uh can you assist us with why you made this
00:40:46 request yes um absolutely so um Alex Powell was um deputy director for local government Steward stewardship and that was the part of the department that
00:40:57 was the part of the department that brought together uh information on local authorities it was the part of the department that um really looked at the performance of local authorities so I thought it would be really sensible um
00:41:09 thought it would be really sensible um to check whether we had any concerns about um uh the robar of Kensington and Chelsea um you know to to make sure that uh that they were able to deal with
00:41:21 uh that they were able to deal with something um like this at at the time I felt that they would be drawing on the support of London res ience but I felt it was also really important just to check out if there was any background information on the local Authority
00:41:33 information on the local Authority itself um was that standard Pro procedure um yes absolutely did anything sorry interrupt what sort of background information were
00:41:44 what sort of background information were you looking for so um we would collect um information on local authorities working closely with the LGA um from different inspection reports or um other
00:41:56 different inspection reports or um other information that we've gathered together really to make sure that the local Authority system was functioning um and there would have been some local authorities that we were more concerned with in fact you have seen examples
00:42:07 with in fact you have seen examples where local government has in intervened in um in different local authorities um uh but um B of Kensington and Chelsea
00:42:18 uh but um B of Kensington and Chelsea weren't one of those authorities that were flagged up through all of the information that we had as um being an authority of concern to us in terms of their this is in terms of their General
00:42:30 their this is in terms of their General performance um across their services well let's um let's see if we can um go to those documents it may help us to what the request was at clg4 2954
00:42:44 please at
00:42:49 143 so we can see at the bottom of the page there um Joe would like a little uh would like a little more information on our relation relationship with Kensington and Chelsea are they on on
00:43:00 Kensington and Chelsea are they on on your radar for any reason and if so why or is there any other information uh it would be useful for her to note that's the general request that was sent um if
00:43:12 the general request that was sent um if we go up we can see at 5 minutes past 2 in the afternoon um that Mr Powell receives confirmation K and C aren't on our radar at all and
00:43:24 and C aren't on our radar at all and therefore we don't hold anything on them um it then goes on to say that the ministerial support unit have an app or database on councils which can provide general information facts and figures on
00:43:35 general information facts and figures on funding housing TF what does that stand for um I'm not sure actually um if that's of use the most recent development of note that I'm aware of is the breakdown of the trior agreement
00:43:47 the breakdown of the trior agreement which I suspect Joe is is already cited on that were you cited on the breakdown of the trior agreement uh yes I was actually I think TF probably relates to Tred families but
00:43:58 TF probably relates to Tred families but I'm not 100% sure um I I'm sure I knew at the
00:44:07 time I'd like to uh take you next to CLG 42952
00:44:18 please uh we can see here an email um that was in fact uh sent to um Melanie doors's office and uh we can see there this is some
00:44:29 and uh we can see there this is some really basic background about Kensington and Chelsea and the Department's relationship with them it then goes on to provide say that there's a fact sheet that's attached and information on
00:44:40 that's attached and information on Kensington and Chelsea um it goes on to talk about the leader his relationship with the Department is good he is well respected and open to discussing various ideas the general view of officials is
00:44:52 ideas the general view of officials is that he has a safe Pair of Hands who runs a tight and steady ship he's been in post since 2013 uh was part of the tribear system with Hammer Smith and Fulham and Westminster this will officially end in
00:45:03 Westminster this will officially end in 2018 uh was that your understanding as well um well I I actually Kensington and Chelsea was not a local Authority that I knew well um hence while I was asking
00:45:14 knew well um hence while I was asking Alex for the information at the time I wanted to understand more about them I I wanted to speak to Nicholas Holgate um and wanted to make sure that I was
00:45:25 and wanted to make sure that I was prepared for that meeting and um but also I think in in the absence of hearing from Nicholas Holgate I wanted to reassure myself that um this was not
00:45:36 to reassure myself that um this was not a council that we were concerned about as I say at the time I felt they would be drawing on the support of of um of London resilience as well um certainly had knowledge and confidence um of
00:45:48 had knowledge and confidence um of London resilience having worked in a um a London local Authority previously we can see here that it says the secretary of state state has spoken to the leader today um and then it goes on to say that
00:46:00 today um and then it goes on to say that the minister for London is also uh going to speak later that afternoon uh and then so far as Mr Holgate is concerned it says Melanie has emailed and Joe has text today he confirmed that the have
00:46:13 text today he confirmed that the have received he confirmed I think that's supposed to say that he um has received lots of blue light support previously worked in HMT the department has a very good relationship uh with him h and is
00:46:27 good relationship uh with him h and is this the reference that we mentioned earlier where you say at M dos previously knew him from work elsewhere in government yes I believe Melanie knew him I'm not sure how well actually but I I believe she knew him from um HMT
00:46:40 I believe she knew him from um HMT treasury uh we we can see here at the top of the email it says some very basic uh background you would agree that that's indeed what it is very basic it yes it's very basic and we uh were
00:46:51 yes it's very basic and we uh were concerned to to know more actually um hence my trying to speak to Nicholas Holgate and then having the conversation on the um 15th I mean I should I should
00:47:02 on the um 15th I mean I should I should say that actually just um we We Gather basic information on um local authorities just because the relationship with the Department um hasn't caused any concern in the past it
00:47:14 hasn't caused any concern in the past it we have seen from other local authorities that that doesn't necessarily mean that they're able to um to cope with every eventuality so uh hence wanting to speak to Nicholas Holgate and understand that understand
00:47:26 Holgate and understand that understand that more
00:47:27 that more yes well we we'll come to that but let's just have a look at the fact sheet please um CLG 30 36412 uh for
00:47:39 completeness it seems to be a fact sheet about Finance is that a fair summary um actually I don't know I don't
00:47:50 summary um actually I don't know I don't think it is um All About
00:47:55 Finance um uh no I there seems to be a range of information on there would you accept um that it's relatively superficial
00:48:06 that it's relatively superficial information that's been provided yes I mean that would um that yes that would just be um information that we had that was provided yeah it doesn't provide an
00:48:18 was provided yeah it doesn't provide an assessment of their ability to cope in an emergency I think you've already said that no and in fact um I at the time the department wasn't resourced nor do I believe it was our role to really to
00:48:30 believe it was our role to really to assess the emergency plans of of local authorities I'm uh did you in your role with oversight of red or or or do you know if red would
00:48:42 of red or or or do you know if red would have received information about what training or exercising of pan London resilience pans rbkc had been involved in um I I don't think they would have had a detailed understanding of that I
00:48:54 had a detailed understanding of that I think they would have had um some reassurance mostly through London resilience um that structures were in place but they certainly wouldn't have had detailed looks at um individual
00:49:05 had detailed looks at um individual local Authority plans I that's not something that that was assessed to be their role at the time or they were resourced to do do you think information of that nature would have been helpful um in this incident it it may
00:49:17 helpful um in this incident it it may have been helpful I would question whether that would have been a red roll because it would have covered the whole of government or whether that would have been something that the cabinet office would have been interested in but the red team worked closely with the cabinet
00:49:32 office um you also contact the contacted the local government Association to see if there was anything you needed to know about rbkc which was relevant to its
00:49:43 about rbkc which was relevant to its ability um to deal with the disaster um did they provide you with any relevant information um uh uh I I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm struggling to
00:49:56 I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm struggling to remember I'm I'm really sorry I mean I think we had a general conversation um about Kensington and Chelsea as an authority I believe I asked them about also about um London
00:50:08 asked them about also about um London resilience um
00:50:12 um uh and I I believe I asked them about um the chief executive at the time Nicholas
00:50:21 hgat well I'd like to U Move next to your um meet a meeting that you attended with Melanie DS at 3:30 on the 14th of June uh you refer to it in your
00:50:32 June uh you refer to it in your statement and I'll take you to it at page 7 paragraph
00:50:42 33 um it says at 3:30 on Wednesday I attended a meeting uh with Melanie dors at around this time or Rec course she informed me that she had contacted Nicholas Holgate and that he had
00:50:53 Nicholas Holgate and that he had informed her that rbkc had the situation under control and did not need any central government support uh was there a minute of your uh meeting with Melanie doors um uh I'm not
00:51:07 meeting with Melanie doors um uh I'm not sure actually if there was a minute I'm sure we would have provided it for the records but I do remember that conversation I also remember that we discussed uh whether I should speak to him as well because it was unusual um
00:51:20 him as well because it was unusual um not to need um any support I mean actually I should I should explain how these incident work I mean sometimes um actually local authorities don't need
00:51:31 um actually local authorities don't need central government support and in fact in the first few days I think it's really important um or the first few hours in fact really important to let local responders respond to the
00:51:42 local responders respond to the situation so um in fact as central government you can quite often confuse the situation if you um become involved uh really early on because actually you
00:51:53 uh really early on because actually you might make decisions or make directions not un without understanding of the local area that might then prove to be quite um damaging later on so I think the way the Civil contingencies Act is
00:52:04 the way the Civil contingencies Act is set up is to give the responsibility to local responders who are familiar with the local area um there's requirement for them to have plans in place and be trained in the case of London there um
00:52:16 trained in the case of London there um there should be some reassurance through the London um resilience operation um that plans are up toate and and effective and in fact London resilience is is tried and tested in terms of um
00:52:29 is is tried and tested in terms of um responding to to incident so so quite often um which is why the scg is important quite often you will not need central government uh involvement particularly in the early stages it can
00:52:41 particularly in the early stages it can um get in the way of the situation but it's is really important if central government help is needed that the scg feeds that up um and and there's a mechanism for them to do that so if
00:52:54 mechanism for them to do that so if there are things happening on the ground which central government may not be able to see because for example we we wouldn't be um in the Cordon area or able um to get to some some of the
00:53:07 able um to get to some some of the places where it was evident the support was needed actually what we need is for people to be reporting that back and saying actually we do need um support with specifics I mentioned funding earlier but I'm sure there were a number
00:53:18 earlier but I'm sure there were a number of and then in fact there were a number of other issues where um central government did then Provide support do you know um this information that um M
00:53:29 you know um this information that um M dos was telling you at this time as we can see um in the statement here uh do you know where that information was coming from was it coming from Mr Holgate directly yes I believe um he had told her that he didn't um need any
00:53:43 told her that he didn't um need any support but um we discussed and uh I remember Melanie and I saying that it would be helpful if we had a follow-up call um with Nicholas Holgate just to prove that a bit more and make sure and
00:53:55 prove that a bit more and make sure and make sure he knew what support was on offer and that that uh central government was here if he if he needed it well can I take you to clg4 2877
00:54:06 it well can I take you to clg4 2877 please it's the uh middle should be the middle email on the page um well just to put it into context first we can see there at the bottom this is the email at 7 minutes past 9 UM
00:54:20 this is the email at 7 minutes past 9 UM that was uh sent by Miss doors's office to Nicholas Holgate in the middle there at uh 9 minutes past 9 we can see a response from him uh to her saying many
00:54:31 response from him uh to her saying many thanks plenty of blue light resource at present is it your understanding that this was the information M dos was relying on when she told you that she had spoken and had contacted Mr Holgate
00:54:43 had spoken and had contacted Mr Holgate who who wasn't asking for any support um I I'm not sure what um I know she had had contact with him I'm not sure what um she was she was referring to at that at that point but um I I um I do
00:54:57 at that point but um I I um I do remember her being concerned as was I that we should um test this um and and speak to Mr hogate direct I mean you know conscious that um he and others
00:55:10 know conscious that um he and others will have been uh M try managing the incident um however felt that it would be helpful for us to ensure that he didn't need a um need support would it
00:55:23 didn't need a um need support would it surprise you um if information um that was being related to you in the afternoon of the 14th of June was relying on information that had been sent at 9 minutes past 9: in the morning
00:55:35 sent at 9 minutes past 9: in the morning on the 14th um it wouldn't have surprised me I mean I think um no I mean I you know I think um Melanie had reached out to Nicholas Holgate he had said there was um uh he didn't need any
00:55:48 said there was um uh he didn't need any support um actually I think we both thought we needed to have a follow-up conversation to to make sure of of that so I I I think we wouldn't have relied on um just one piece of information
00:56:00 on um just one piece of information hence um uh me trying to speak to him and having discussed with Melanie that that I would do that um I'd like to move on in time then to the evening of uh the
00:56:11 on in time then to the evening of uh the 14th of June uh at the 7:30 scg um we can see here if we go to CLG 4848
00:56:29 an email that was sent at 928 2128 on the 14th of June and it's a readout from the 7:30 scg is that
00:56:45 right I believe so yes I you can see in the subject line update and then it says please see the latest update below yes
00:56:57 do you uh did you consider that there was any issue with the timing of receiving information about the scg meeting that had started at 7:30 but that was only being circulated at 9:28
00:57:11 that was only being circulated at 9:28 that
00:57:12 that evening um I don't I don't remember being concerned about that it was 7:30 in the evening was the scg meeting it would have I'm not sure how long the meeting will have lasted for it it may
00:57:24 meeting will have lasted for it it may have been a while and that information wasn't available um to me um but my experience of R is that um they reported back as as soon as they were
00:57:36 back as as soon as they were able uh we can see uh in this readout if we could go to um page two please the very top of page two um it says still an emergency
00:57:47 two um it says still an emergency response but working towards steady state so the in so the formation of a parallel Recovery Group will be considered first thing tomorrow where working towards a potential Handover
00:57:58 working towards a potential Handover tomorrow night um would was there was there anything unusual about moving to a Handover to uh the following day well I personally was
00:58:09 the following day well I personally was very concerned about that and I remember um discussing that with Katherine Richardson uh and R it seemed very early um to move that to move to recovery um
00:58:22 um to move that to move to recovery um bearing in mind the local Authority would then be leading that recovery they see seemed to me to still be quite a lot of work for the Emergency Services to do I was concerned that the local uh
00:58:33 I was concerned that the local uh Authority or um any other resilience Arrangements uh local government resilience Arrangement would be able to um would be the right people to lead that at that point um and uh I was still
00:58:47 that at that point um and uh I was still wanting to speak to Nicholas Holgate but I remember that I I pushed back on on that and asked is that the right thing to do um to hand over to uh a recovery
00:58:58 to do um to hand over to uh a recovery phase as early as um tomorrow night as it says here um you can see from the the rest of the email that there is still quite a lot of um uh the emergency
00:59:12 quite a lot of um uh the emergency situation is still being managed it's it seemed to me to be still very much in the response phase we can see there just in the um third paragraph D down that it
00:59:23 in the um third paragraph D down that it says vulnerable people and families have been given accommod overnight hotel as a priority this is 44 families from the tower and 25 from the surrounding area there is still a short full of
00:59:35 there is still a short full of accommodation uh did that concern you well that was being dealt with by um another part of the department who I know were very concerned about
00:59:46 that do you consider that this was perhaps an indication um that all was not well with the local Authority um well I wanted to understand
00:59:57 Authority um well I wanted to understand whether all was well with the local Authority I mean it's very I I I understand that you know it was very challenging um situation as I say another part of the department um were
01:00:08 another part of the department um were was was dealing with that issue I think there were concerns um at that point about the housing ability of the local Authority um but but um my my my main
01:00:21 Authority um but but um my my my main concern was um for for my part of the department was are they able to lead a recovery gold given that they're dealing with all of these other issues
01:00:32 dealing with all of these other issues it still seems to be to me to be in a response situation and there still concerns with other things that they need to sort out such as um accommodation can you assist us with
01:00:43 accommodation can you assist us with when these concerns that you had crystallized so I'm so my concerns about whether they were ready to um lead the recovery crystallized when uh I read this email and spoke to Katherine
01:00:55 this email and spoke to Katherine richardon I I believe there was an email from me on the subject that hopefully you have in in your records asking whether it was the right time to move to local Authority
01:01:11 recovery I won't take you to to that now um but would it be um fair to say that you hadn't made any inquiries at this stage um to action those concerns that
01:01:23 stage um to action those concerns that you had that evening I so so when I read this email I ium spoke to Katherine Richardson so I absolutely had made inquiries the housing inquiries were were being dealt with um by another part of the
01:01:35 with um by another part of the department so you I suppose you you have to look at mine and Helen McNamara's um statements um together to see see the full response of of the department um uh
01:01:46 full response of of the department um uh but but yes my particular concern was were they ready um to to um lead a recovery phase given that they were still dealing with um the emergency
01:01:57 still dealing with um the emergency situation and in particular housing vulnerable people and families which seemed to be a priority for them so I would have expected them to be focused on that the the the response was still
01:02:08 on that the the the response was still being led by the police um uh I wondered if it was the right time uh I did more than wondered if it was the right time actually I felt it was not the right time for them to be um leading the
01:02:20 time for them to be um leading the recovery and I raised this with Katherine richon and asked for that to be fed back um through through uh the home office and to the Strategic command Group which I believe was done I believe
01:02:32 Group which I believe was done I believe they didn't actually hand over the recovery at that at that point um could I ask this aside from what's mentioned in this readout had you received uh any
01:02:44 in this readout had you received uh any concerns uh outside of this scg readout about rbk's response so no personally I hadn't um received any concerns about their response I started to receive
01:02:56 their response I started to receive concerns the next day um yeah and but but um as I said I I wasn't in the um ministerial meeting so most of the information um was the way the structure
01:03:08 information um was the way the structure was set set up was the home office with the lead Department there was the ad hoc ministerial meetings um a lot of information was fed up through that route red red were reporting into that
01:03:19 route red red were reporting into that route um I wasn't at those meetings so um so I so that if things were raised at that meetings those meetings that weren't in the minutes I wouldn't have necessarily been aware of of them but by
01:03:31 necessarily been aware of of them but by the 15th I certainly was becoming aware of um several issues well let's then move to the 15th of June please um I I'd like to uh show you an email sent by Sir
01:03:42 like to uh show you an email sent by Sir Jeremy Haywood at uh 12 minutes past 9 please it's cg13 9750
01:03:56 uh and it says this lots of concern here that the local Authority La is not gripping the aftermath rehousing Etc is that fair should CLG secund in people to
01:04:07 that fair should CLG secund in people to help which of your ministers is now tightly is now gripping this tightly uh were you made aware of this email and not until later on that day can you assist us with when that was later um I
01:04:20 assist us with when that was later um I um it it was uh later in the
01:04:24 afternoon would you agree um that it was a matter of significance that the head of the Civil Service uh was contacting the permanent Secretary of dclg stating uh there was lots of concerns and asking
01:04:37 uh there was lots of concerns and asking who was gripping this well it was a concern I think um but both Melanie and I um different points and we saw the email were very concerned about that um we were I was
01:04:49 concerned about that um we were I was still making efforts to um to talk to Nicholas Holgate in in the end I believe um uh I don't believe my office has given a statement but I believe I asked my office to be very firm with his
01:05:01 my office to be very firm with his office that I needed to have a conversation with him you had his mobile number by this point did you um I don't remember per I may have done and I may have tried to ring him I
01:05:13 done and I may have tried to ring him I remember that I couldn't uh get hold of him so I felt the best route would be to contact his office and put a specific time in to speak to him because I felt that that would be uh the best way to
01:05:25 that that would be uh the best way to get hold him having not received a reply to my text message and as I said I can't remember whether I tried to ring him or not but I'd definitely been trying to get in touch and having no response so that's the route I went down given the
01:05:37 that's the route I went down given the um concerns that you say you had on the morning of uh the 15th of June it would have been open to you rather than waiting for a formal arrangement for a call to telephone him directly as you say you sent him a text message he
01:05:49 say you sent him a text message he hadn't responded but you could have picked up the phone and and tried to ring him I'm I think I'm I believe I may have done that I don't believe I had any um response but I I can't remember exactly um and as I said I hadn't been
01:06:00 exactly um and as I said I hadn't been made aware of the real issues until the afternoon um of of um uh when a number of issues started to come together actually um in the afternoon including
01:06:11 actually um in the afternoon including my conversation with Nicholas hogate we'll come to that uh in in due course uh what did you make of the fact that the head of the Civil Service on the morning of the 15th of June had heard
01:06:23 morning of the 15th of June had heard concerns uh yet you had not through red um well red red it's a a different role for red so as I said red was resourced really to be the um conduit
01:06:35 resourced really to be the um conduit between uh the uh scg and central government um there were other people in contact with the local Authority particularly on the housing side I
01:06:46 particularly on the housing side I believe there had also been um visits to the the area so other people would have been picking up information that should have been fed through the Strate IC command group I mean if issues were that
01:06:58 command group I mean if issues were that obvious and the local Authority wasn't gripping the aftermath and particularly the housing then that should have been fed up through the Strategic command group I would imagine it was also being fed up if it had gone to Jeremy Haywood
01:07:10 fed up if it had gone to Jeremy Haywood it would been fed up um through the chain to um the part of the department that was concerned with rehousing and I know there was a lot of activity going
01:07:21 know there was a lot of activity going on in that part of the department but um actually that wasn't my area responsibility so I imagine uh the the feedback this type of email would have been fed in through the um uh housing
01:07:34 been fed in through the um uh housing part of the department to make sure that support was being offered in terms of rehousing and in fact I later learned that support was offered in terms of rehousing but uh but not taken because I
01:07:45 rehousing but uh but not taken because I was asked to follow that up personally when I visited rbkc would it be fair to say um Dr Farah that there was an issue with your situational awareness at this point
01:07:56 point then um so my personal situational awareness
01:08:01 awareness um so yes I um well I think I I think I'll say um the awareness that I had I think was the information that I I needed to
01:08:14 was the information that I I needed to know because there was a the response in the department was being led elsewhere so I I think there's a difference between my situational awareness um as the person not leading um for DCL and
01:08:25 the person not leading um for DCL and the awareness of the department I think the Department's awareness was probably High um but my my role was not leading um the housing and rehousing uh effort
01:08:38 um the housing and rehousing uh effort and assuring myself that the local Authority was able to lead the housing and rehousing effort that was that was a responsibility of dclg and there was a lot of activity in that area but that
01:08:50 lot of activity in that area but that wasn't in my particular um area so the fact that there were concern conerns about the Lo local Authority not gripping the aftermath so that you you
01:09:01 gripping the aftermath so that you you say that that is not something that that was your concern that you must have that you should have known about well and I did know about it so um so this was so I did receive a copy of this email later on and um information of this type
01:09:14 on and um information of this type because um I was speaking to Nicholas Holgate and also um visiting the local Authority I think in these in emergency situations it's really important that you have a command and control structure and people aren't um trying to to to do
01:09:27 and people aren't um trying to to to do things that that is not their responsibility it needs to feed in through this ministerial group and the lead government department so the whole so the whole um response is is managed
01:09:38 so the whole um response is is managed and and that was happening I'm I'm all I'm saying is that actually my role in that part was was um limited although I had an interest in local government and
01:09:49 had an interest in local government and in uh whether they could lead the recovery and I think Jeremy Haywood's email if you look at it is really um referring to the housing and rehousing effort of which I was very aware that there were big concerns um and knew that
01:10:02 there were big concerns um and knew that that was being dealt with by some really competent people in um in a different part of the department well I'd like to move on to 9:30 on the 15th of June a briefing took
01:10:15 9:30 on the 15th of June a briefing took place with the Secretary of State uh the housing and uh planning Minister Alo Sharma uh Melanie dors and others from dclg and the briefing was again conducted Ed by Catherine Richardson and
01:10:26 conducted Ed by Catherine Richardson and you attended is that right I believe so um was this email from Jeremy Haywood discussed at this meeting I don't
01:10:36 remember um the H the housing situation was certainly discussed at the
01:10:45 meeting um let's look at um paragraph 40 of your first witness statement please that's page eight um
01:10:56 eight um just to give you um some context at paragraph 39 you're talking about the 9:30 uh meeting and then at paragraph 40 you say this at 10:36 I provided an
01:11:07 you say this at 10:36 I provided an update to Vince KD the private Secretary of melany doors based on the information I had been given by Red in a verbal update um can you assist us with whether
01:11:18 update um can you assist us with whether this was a verbal update you'd received at the 9:30 briefing or is this a separate uh update that you'd received after it um I I um no I it was
01:11:29 after it um I I um no I it was both so the verbal update happened at the briefing so there was a verbal update at the briefing and I spoke to Katherine richon afterwards as
01:11:40 well uh we can see the actions arising from that if we go to clg4 3125
01:11:55 15th of June at 9:30 actions from Secretary of State update meeting immediate response today understanding from the SG SG that there are enough accommodation places for 100% of
01:12:07 accommodation places for 100% of displaced people including a list of how many places have been offered by each burrow it then goes on to to talk about trauma work um what discussion gave rise
01:12:18 trauma work um what discussion gave rise to this
01:12:20 to this action sorry remind me which action this where it says here the understanding the immediate
01:12:27 immediate response there an understanding from the scg on the number of accommodation places for 100% of displaced people yes so I mean so that that's that
01:12:38 people yes so I mean so that that's that wasn't an action that was um a a comment from the scg who were saying there was enough accommodation places for 100% of displaced people would that comment not
01:12:49 displaced people would that comment not have given rise to an action that it was uh for those to find out what was going on so I mean the way that local responses are organized is that actually
01:13:00 responses are organized is that actually um and in the cons if we go back to the Civil contingencies act that the local responders are are responsible for making sure that um the uh responses is
01:13:11 making sure that um the uh responses is adequate and for feeding up to central government if if it's not adequate so I imagine the question was asked um whether there were enough um accommodation places and the scg were
01:13:22 accommodation places and the scg were were reassuring that there were enough accommodation places I would go back to my earlier point there just so important that these strategic command groups um are feeding back really accurate
01:13:33 are feeding back really accurate information and um and and saying when they need support as I as I said central government at the time um was not well and still isn't a category one responder
01:13:45 and still isn't a category one responder isn't therefore um leading the response on the ground can sometimes um get in the way if it if it tries to lead the response on the ground when somebody else is is leading it understands the
01:13:57 else is is leading it understands the Bor but the important thing is that we receive accurate information from those local responders everybody um should be working together to make sure um that
01:14:08 working together to make sure um that the people affected who who are the absolute primary concern are supported um and and have uh their their needs um met so making sure that there is
01:14:20 met so making sure that there is accommodation for 100% of displaced people I think I've learned since that um there wasn't um really important that we receive that information as soon as
01:14:31 we receive that information as soon as possible so that we we are able to help um I'd like to uh turn to please uh conversations that you had at uh 1036 on
01:14:42 conversations that you had at uh 1036 on the 15th of June um we've referred to it already it was an update on the response uh to Melanie doors's private secretary based on information that you'd been uh given by Red you say this in your
01:14:54 given by Red you say this in your statement uh from a verbal update um we can see it here at CLG
01:15:10 43102 so this is a an update that you had provided that is being emailed uh from uh Mr Do's office uh to her rbkc
01:15:22 from uh Mr Do's office uh to her rbkc update from Joe 1036 there was a quick response I think that's supposed to say in terms of providing temporary accommodation last night the task for today and tomorrow is finding more permanent homes our team is
01:15:35 finding more permanent homes our team is in contact with the director of housing who is holding a meeting and will report back at 11:00 a.m. there is a strategic coordinating group at 11:00 a.m. where this will be discussed our staff are on
01:15:47 this will be discussed our staff are on this
01:15:51 group did you consider this information to be odds with the information that you had received following the 7:30 scg the night before uh where we saw earlier that there was a shortfall of
01:16:03 that there was a shortfall of accommodation um so this was this was um the I believe um so this this would have been an update from Red taken from the
01:16:15 been an update from Red taken from the next
01:16:16 next scg um so the information from the local responders was that there was a quick this is a factual note of what I'd been told this these aren't my judgments so
01:16:27 told this these aren't my judgments so uh what I was told um and I believe it came from the uh the scg meeting um that uh there was a quick response in terms of providing temporary
01:16:38 of providing temporary accommodation um that people today and tomorrow uh were thinking of opponent homes the team in mhclg or dclg um which was in a different part of
01:16:50 dclg um which was in a different part of the uh Department were in contact with the director of housing as as they were they had um a meeting the next day um but were also in contact with them they
01:17:02 but were also in contact with them they were going to report back after 11:00 and then there was another STG at 11 11: a.m. and red were on that group I mean so I think so this is um a factual report back um for me in emergencies I
01:17:15 report back um for me in emergencies I feel and in fact it's good practice when you receive information to to jot down what you're being told and that that is put on the record well you say that this is a factual note did you question the information that you were being given by
01:17:27 information that you were being given by Katherine Richardson here so um I so no not not not at this point I was um gathering information from her for um in terms of um of of what was said at the
01:17:40 terms of um of of what was said at the scg
01:17:42 scg um as as I say the main concerns that I was aware of were related to housing U which I'm s I'm sorry to keep saying this but which would been dealt with I
01:17:53 this but which would been dealt with I know very proactively by some very competent people in the rest of the department so so my my trust was with them to be actually following up on those uh those issues and making sure
01:18:06 those uh those issues and making sure that they were reporting back and they were reporting back into ministerial meetings and um in fact uh the director general for that area was um was on the ad hoc ministerial attended the adhoc
01:18:18 ad hoc ministerial attended the adhoc ministerial group as well given that housing was their main concern well Mr chairman I haven't finished this but uh but I think now is a convenient moment that Su you does it
01:18:29 a convenient moment that Su you does it all right well Dr farret as you know we have a break during the morning we take it now we'll stop there and come back please at 25 to 12 and uh this is the
01:18:40 please at 25 to 12 and uh this is the first breaking your evidence I have to ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it while you're out of the room I won right thank you very much would you go with the Usher please
01:19:01 thank you 25
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01:36:26 [Music] would you ask Dr Farah to come back in
01:36:45 please right Dr Farah ready to carry on I hope yes thank you yes M multra thank you um could I just clarify uh one matter with you Dr farry you were talking earlier in your evidence about
01:36:56 talking earlier in your evidence about the response and the recovery phases and you mentioned that the response phase uh was the Emergency Services would be involved and then the rec recovery phase came later um I just wanted to clarify
01:37:08 came later um I just wanted to clarify you're not suggesting that the local Authority didn't have any responsibilities in the response phase are you oh no absolutely not they're a category one responder and are on the um are are on the Strategic command group
01:37:20 are are on the Strategic command group so should be part of the um the feedback to central government and as you will uh be well aware there would be responsibilities on the local authorities a category one responder to
01:37:32 authorities a category one responder to set up rest centers for example rest centers uh housing responding to anything that falls within uh their responsibility yeah so they would have been a big part of um the response
01:37:44 been a big part of um the response actually they just weren't leading um and isn't a a clear dividing line between response and Recovery the two run in tandem is that right no there there I mean they they they there is a
01:37:56 there I mean they they they there is a dividing line so there's a response uh there's a response phase and and um at a point um the response phase is handed over to recovery and then there's a
01:38:07 over to recovery and then there's a that's a separate phase so actually um yes there is an element of things running in tandem because people will want to be uh ready to lead the response so they'll need to make sure that their
01:38:19 so they'll need to make sure that their structures are set up but there there should be a clear Handover a point and I think that was referred to in some of the emails where um the goal Commander or the Strategic command group Commander
01:38:31 or the Strategic command group Commander was suggesting that they would uh be handing over to the local Authority as part of the recovery phase yeah thank you for for for clarifying that I wonder if I could take you to uh CLG
01:38:45 if I could take you to uh CLG 43099
01:38:51 please and it's the second email in the chain at
01:38:55 chain at 1020 um I appreciate these are emails that you uh were not copied into but I wonder if you might be able to uh help us with some of the contacts uh 15th of
01:39:06 us with some of the contacts uh 15th of June 10:20 an email from Jenny shellin is that a member of red um I'm I'm not sure actually uh and uh it's from her to Philip James I hope
01:39:19 uh it's from her to Philip James I hope you can accept from me uh if we go down to the bottom of page two we can see Jenny shellin was a member of the resilience and emergencies division yes thanks and Philip James I believe was
01:39:30 thanks and Philip James I believe was the um glow for that day um in this e email um there are a number of asks and I'll just read it out I know
01:39:41 of asks and I'll just read it out I know that you're joining the scg at 11 today I will include your readout in the briefing for this afternoon's ministerial so as you would expect we'll be wanting it as soon as you can a
01:39:52 be wanting it as soon as you can a couple of areas it would help us it would help us for you to Probe on if it's not completely clear the number of residents displaced we were awarded in action to clarify this at yesterday's
01:40:04 action to clarify this at yesterday's meeting my line currently reads like this and she then goes on to to set out uh what the lines on it are over the page at page two uh she says the temporary accommodation Arrangements
01:40:16 temporary accommodation Arrangements again we were given an action to liaz with
01:40:19 with rbkc we've had an update from lrp London resilience partnership isn't that uh and also homelessness team are talking to the rbkc team but it would be useful to
01:40:31 the rbkc team but it would be useful to add any intelligence you can along the lines of Are We satisfied that everyone who wants accommodation has it when do we think those from surrounding area who are in the rest center will be able to
01:40:43 are in the rest center will be able to return home are we satisfied that rbkc has a grip on this uh we can uh then see if we we go up in the email
01:40:57 chain at
01:41:00 10:28 um Lyn daken who was a resilience advisor head of resilience um within red uh says the following in the second paragraph I can confirm I spoke to both
01:41:12 paragraph I can confirm I spoke to both Toby and haish I believe they are London resilience group uh employees this morning and on both calls they confirmed that the local Authority have confidence
01:41:23 that the local Authority have confidence uh that they temporary accommodation for all those that need it and then uh he go she goes on to say they may give further reassurance on the SC on the
01:41:36 scg would you expect uh any concerns raised by a glow who was attending the scg uh to be documented in scg
01:41:48 scg uh to be documented in scg minutes um I would expect issues um possibly um I think there are different uh levels of minutes so the the minutes that yes but yes I I would expect them actually
01:42:00 but yes I I would expect them actually to um be recorded on scg minutes because the glow is an important part of of the scg and I know sometimes they're summarized but yes I I certainly um
01:42:11 summarized but yes I I certainly um would expect that and could I take you to lfb 20 119 323 please
01:42:23 uh and just to identify that these are the scg minutes from the 11:00 meeting on on the 15th of June um if we um go to page two
01:42:34 page two please page
01:42:43 three let's try again uh if we go to page
01:42:49 four uh we can see that dclg provided an update following a ministerial meeting this am ministers were Keen to provide help wherever possible particularly in
01:43:01 help wherever possible particularly in regards to accommodation action 14 all to copy LRG that's London resilience group to any request to dclg um would you have expected there to have been a note here that dclg wanted
01:43:15 have been a note here that dclg wanted information about numbers on those that were
01:43:18 were displaced um if if uh uh possibly I mean the minutes are summarized I I would have expected them to have noted if particular requests were made from uh
01:43:29 particular requests were made from uh dclg and I and I assume if if they uh were asked to make those requests they they would have made them at the meeting so yes I would have then expected to be minuted now I wonder if I could just um
01:43:41 minuted now I wonder if I could just um clarify you said that there were concerns emerging and I I think you uh said in your evidence that it was the afternoon of the 15th when concerns really came to a fall for you is that right that's that's right um and so this
01:43:53 right that's that's right um and so this stage um of the morning on the 15th uh you knew that there were concerns about rehousing is that right yes so yes and that um and that's uh that was being dealt with by um a different part of the
01:44:04 dealt with by um a different part of the department and also um being fed in through the command structure that government had set up uh set in place could I take you to clg4 3112
01:44:15 could I take you to clg4 3112 please at 1045 it should be the third email on the first page
01:44:24 uh we can see there um an email from the office of the Secretary of State um and it says this uh number 10 have been in touch during the Secretary of State's phone call with the Prime Minister this
01:44:36 phone call with the Prime Minister this morning he gave assurances that dclg have been working hard to ensure that there is a coordinated response to the incident the PM would now like a briefing confirming this that a outlines
01:44:48 briefing confirming this that a outlines what dclg has done to ensure the response is coordinated B clearly states who and how many people we have on the ground and C States sets out what DG's
01:45:00 ground and C States sets out what DG's role is um so just uh pausing there for a moment um it seems as if and would you agree with this that the uh prime minister was seeking uh reassurance from
01:45:12 minister was seeking uh reassurance from the secretary of state that uh dclg was in control and ensuring that there was a coordinated response would you agree with that um well I I wouldn't agree
01:45:23 with that um well I I wouldn't agree that it's asking dclg was in control it's asking uh is is dclg uh ensuring that the response is uh
01:45:35 coordinated and so would it be fair to say from that that there was an assumption that it would be DG's responsibility to ensure that that responsible is coordinated on the ground
01:45:46 responsible is coordinated on the ground and we um and I think that would refer to the response stage of the um incident that we were all concerned and that actually the the response stage uh was was affected and effective and
01:46:04 coordinated did the fact um that questions were now being asked um at the highest level in the form of the Prime Minister make you review the response that was happening at the time
01:46:17 response that was happening at the time well that that was being done as I say through um through the um the kind of organization structure that central government had put in place and so I'm absolutely sure that people would have been very concerned about that my
01:46:29 been very concerned about that my primary uh issue of concern was making sure that the council was able to lead um the response phase so um so I so so
01:46:41 um the response phase so um so I so so I'm looking at at uh these emails through a different lens so I'm so so there's a whole system uh looking at the prime ministerial concerns and issu and
01:46:53 prime ministerial concerns and issu and issues and actions raised through the ministerial group of which I wasn't a part but I'm uh thinking uh about the Handover of the response phase to um rbkc Andor London resilience and that
01:47:06 rbkc Andor London resilience and that was my my concern making sure that actually what would be quite a long and difficult uh response was going to be properly managed I mean I think it's
01:47:17 properly managed I mean I think it's quite normal for departments to to split responsibilities and make sure that the people
01:47:23 people who who are overseeing those areas are proactively thinking about um what's happening in the next stage so so that's why on the 15th but although all these
01:47:34 why on the 15th but although all these issues were the department was aware of all these issues and and involved in them and providing the briefing that was requested here um I was looking at it through the lens of uh does this mean
01:47:46 through the lens of uh does this mean that the council won't be able to lead the response and that's what I was really concerned to find out um so we can see here that there is a a concern and that there is a reassurance that is
01:47:59 and that there is a reassurance that is being sought um and the prime minister is asking uh how many people we have on the ground can you assist us with how many people uh from dclg were on the
01:48:11 many people uh from dclg were on the ground at that stage I no I can't I can't that would have been um being managed through through um uh the uh the the structures that I've I've already um
01:48:22 the structures that I've I've already um mentioned
01:48:23 mentioned could we um go next to CLG
01:48:30 303477 and it's page two should be an email at
01:48:38 8:45 we can see here 15th of June 8:45 um this is a an email from uh Nicholas herd the minister for minister
01:48:50 Nicholas herd the minister for minister of State for policing and the fire service his office um to the office of the Secretary of State and in the second uh bullet point there it says the minister has been told that there is an
01:49:02 minister has been told that there is an urgent issue with access to cash for former residents of grenfell tower he's also been told uh via Margaret James MP Bay's Minister that the post office
01:49:14 Bay's Minister that the post office there is a there is local one just around the corner from the tower have offered to facilitate access to money for residents he would be really grateful if your teams were able to facilitate a link between the post
01:49:26 facilitate a link between the post office and the local Council so that they can make people aware and then the final bullet point there have also been a couple of concerns raised with him
01:49:37 a couple of concerns raised with him about the quality of sleeping materials that were available for people last night and asked if there was anything HMG Her Majesty's government could do to help the council upgrade um I'd like to then go to
01:49:50 upgrade um I'd like to then go to another email in this chain at 10 45 it's the next email
01:49:58 up at this time at Catherine Richardson from uh dclg read is cced in and it says this on the question about emergency
01:50:09 this on the question about emergency access to cash for residents of Grenville Tower the CEO of the post office por nenel has called the minister direct to offer support the leader of the rbkc council suggested that his CEO
01:50:21 the rbkc council suggested that his CEO Nicholas Holgate would be the right person for the post office to engage with the minister is Keen that once someone from Her Majesty's government speaks to the CEO with the post office and two link is made to the council and
01:50:33 and two link is made to the council and that residents are able to access money as soon as possible unless there are already alternative Arrangements in place I'd be happy to facilitate but I don't want to tread on toes upset your
01:50:45 don't want to tread on toes upset your procedures and your relationship with the council um so we can see here that concerns are being fed back back uh to red on the morning of the 15th of June is that right um specific issues are
01:50:58 is that right um specific issues are being fed back to Red um through that command structure and I can see here that red is um is responding to those um can you tell me who the James is in the
01:51:09 can you tell me who the James is in the that's I believe that's the office of the the private secretary to the minister of State okay thank you I believe um if we go up in the email chain at
01:51:20 chain at 1054 on the 15th of June uh we can see a short time later another another email to be aware of so this is then sent to your office um another
01:51:31 then sent to your office um another email to be aware of from the home office Nick herd is Keen that once someone from Her Majesty's government speaks to the CEO of the post office on the provision of emergency cash for grenfell Tower residents and two follows
01:51:43 grenfell Tower residents and two follows up with the council to ensure that residents are able to access money as soon as possible unless there are already alternative Arrangements in in place are you okay picking up with the Council on these points alongside other
01:51:55 Council on these points alongside other points today and then at 11:02 uh we can see an email that says at the bottom the last sentence Joe will get in touch with Nick Holgate is that
01:52:08 get in touch with Nick Holgate is that right yes I was at that point as you know I was trying to get in touch with Nick Holgate so I think I mean so so what happens uh in this situations is that you you have um uh the lead so say
01:52:21 that you you have um uh the lead so say the lead department and the ministry minial group the ad hoc ministerial group there'll be a number of actions that come from that group they can they um they are then taken by different people across government and then refed
01:52:33 people across government and then refed back into that group to make sure that they're coordinated and they leading to the outcome that you want so actually as I was speaking to Nicholas Holgate um uh already I I was asked to pick up um
01:52:45 already I I was asked to pick up um other points um so particularly the issue about um accessing um money with him
01:52:53 him well could I take you to your first witness statement please it's page N9 at paragraph
01:53:02 42 um where you say this it's the the first part of the paragraph by Thursday I was aware from conversations I had had and from meetings I had been to that there were concerns in relation to the
01:53:13 there were concerns in relation to the way in which rbkc was handling the rehousing effort any wider concerns in relation to the coordination of the emergency response itself were not drawn to my attention at this stage do you
01:53:25 to my attention at this stage do you still stand by that statement considering the email exchanges that you've just seen yes because actually that they're about offers of um help and um they're about me asking the council
01:53:36 um they're about me asking the council um have they have residents been able to access support so um so so so there weren't concerns about at that point about um rais with me about how the
01:53:48 about um rais with me about how the council was coordinating the response or whether they were um accessing the things that they needed to act the the big concerns that had been fed back were about uh the way that rbkc was handling
01:54:01 about uh the way that rbkc was handling the housing of of residents at that point so so is it fair to say then that you didn't consider the issue of bedding to be a concern so I didn't um and maybe I should have done but I didn't see the
01:54:13 I should have done but I didn't see the email relating to bending because I absolutely think the issue of bedding is a concern and that's one of the things the first things that I noticed on the Friday when I um attended the Westway Center and so had I picked up on on that
01:54:27 Center and so had I picked up on on that email um that said about bedding then that um as someone who's managed emergency response that would have raised a a big question in my mind actually about um the rest center
01:54:41 actually about um the rest center because I I would have been very surprised um and I was very surprised on the Friday to see that um uh the rest center wasn't set up in the way that I would normally expect a rest center set
01:54:52 would normally expect a rest center set up from my local government experience we'll come on to that I don't want there to be um any confusion about this perhaps we could just go back to that email again then please CLG
01:55:05 303477 um it says it see in the second email on the chain at 1054 it it shows in the subject line that this was forwarded to you um is it
01:55:16 that this was forwarded to you um is it forwarded to your office it's forwarded to my office and so I didn't always pick up every email from my office um I also had a direct um email address I could
01:55:27 had a direct um email address I could pick up emails to my office but I um I believe but um that wasn't routine and my office would forward on emails that um that for me to see because obviously
01:55:38 um that for me to see because obviously there's a huge volume of emails so so your your evidence is that you didn't see that the reference to the so I I well um and so absolutely so I
01:55:50 so I I well um and so absolutely so I didn't see the the the reference um and I'd be very apologetic if I had seen that email and uh not pick that up because that seems to me to be really significant and I'm sure if I had seen
01:56:01 significant and I'm sure if I had seen that I it I I would have picked it up I'd like to turn then to your um conversation with Mr Holgate um which you say in your statement we don't need
01:56:13 you say in your statement we don't need to go to it now took place um at about 12:30 on the 15th of June is that right yes um and as we have heard at the time
01:56:24 yes um and as we have heard at the time and we saw it in an email that me Melanie D sent early on the 14th that you were at that stage leading on the support for rbkc is that right um leading on the support I was the lead contact I think I would have
01:56:36 the lead contact I think I would have been the lead contact with the chief executive and do you consider it satisfactory that this was the first time that you were both speaking no and in fact I had really wanted to speak to him the day before and had made every
01:56:49 him the day before and had made every effort to speak to him actually do you consider that maybe that was an indicator that something was a Miss yes absolutely and one of the reasons that
01:57:00 absolutely and one of the reasons that Melanie and I discussed whether it would be uh good to visit and speak to Nicholas hallgate uh directly but absolutely now I know people are busy
01:57:11 absolutely now I know people are busy and managing a response my own experience of managing responses is um actually the contact from central government tends to be at uh uh deputy
01:57:22 government tends to be at uh uh deputy director or director level uh if a director General I think from central government had wanted to speak to me as the chief executive I personally I would have would have taken that seriously and
01:57:33 have would have taken that seriously and would have wanted to speak to them quite quickly and in fact you know the contact from the permanent secretary to Nicholas Holgate I'm very surprised there was only um a brief response
01:57:45 only um a brief response uh when you're managing these incidents they are busy but there's a command structure in play so you know your the silver group underneath you are um managing the response you come together
01:57:56 managing the response you come together as a gold group at intervals there are spaces in between um where I would have personally um made sure that I had made contact with the Department I would have
01:58:07 contact with the Department I would have seen um the director General and particularly the permanent secretary to be people that I would have wanted to speak to and so we're now at the stage where you do speak to him uh can you
01:58:19 where you do speak to him uh can you tell us what was discussed so I made a note of um of what was discussed I I don't know if we'd be able to see that um I felt it was really important just to jot down um the main points that he
01:58:30 to jot down um the main points that he said um during the
01:58:34 conversation I think we do have that and I
01:58:40 will uh I believe it's CLG
01:58:50 4814 yes that's it so and this um will have been uh just to explain the context so um as it was an emergency situation I felt it was
01:59:02 an emergency situation I felt it was important to note down um the points that he raised as I said with an earlier email this is a uh these are the points that he made they're they're they're not um uh my assessment of how he is
01:59:16 um uh my assessment of how he is performing um so these are the points that Nicholas Holgate told me in that um discussion so let's work uh work through this then um it's a an email uh from
01:59:30 this then um it's a an email uh from Miss doors's office on the 15th of June uh 2017 at 4:26 to dclg uh and others within uh
01:59:41 within uh dclg um and it says at the bottom there Joe far call with Nick Holgate 12:30 15th of June was this your note so I yes I wrote a hand written note and my
01:59:52 I wrote a hand written note and my office typed it typed it up so this is my office's um transcript of my of my handwritten note we can see there the first bullet point they have found Hotel
02:00:04 first bullet point they have found Hotel accommodation for anyone with need he thinks that can roll over for as long as needed yes so that's um Nicholas hogate in fact I have to say was very confident in in the conversation I had with him so
02:00:17 in in the conversation I had with him so um I knew there were concerns about housing I'd been asked to raise housing with him
02:00:22 with him uh particularly tempor accommodation um so that was the first point we discussed he told me that there was Hotel accommodation for everybody who who needed it um but uh we'll talk
02:00:34 who who needed it um but uh we'll talk about my visit the next day but clearly the next day there were people without Hotel accommodation I mean possibly it would have been made available to them I don't know but there were still people who were not in hotels well just but we
02:00:47 who were not in hotels well just but we we can come back to that but um his reassurance on that day was that they found a Hotel accommodation for everybody would need and he thinks that this can uh continue for as long as the hotel accommodation is is needed so
02:01:00 hotel accommodation is is needed so people won't then be moved from um those hotels which would been another point of concern well could I just uh pause you there for a moment because we can see further down um 840
02:01:13 further down um 840 845 non-g grenfell Tower households are currently without access to their homes most are making their own Arrangements they are looking at when PE police and fire can reduce the size of the Cordon
02:01:24 fire can reduce the size of the Cordon grenfall residents have been complaining for a long time and we'll come on to that in a moment but did you consider that there was a a discrepancy here um yes well I thought there were several
02:01:35 yes well I thought there were several discrepancies and so um after this the conversation with Nicholas Holgate Melanie and I discussed whether it would be um appropriate um for me to visit
02:01:46 be um appropriate um for me to visit given my knowledge of um of local government and haven't been involved in in these situations so although I wasn't part of the direct response um having spoken to him um and not having you know
02:01:59 spoken to him um and not having you know having a number of things that um seem to be of concern or discrepancies um following this we discussed whether I should actually visit the site I me there had been visits by other people
02:02:11 there had been visits by other people obviously and and they have been coordinated by the ministerial group and it's important I mean it wouldn't be appropriate for me to just um turn up but um we both felt that there might be value given this this conversation
02:02:24 value given this this conversation you've mentioned that uh that's one discrepancy yeah um can you tell us what what the other discrepancies were so um there were a couple of things so um uh
02:02:35 there were a couple of things so um uh I'm not sure I think the note might go on to the next page I might ask you to but it may not good it it goes over onto page two okay so maybe we'll come on to page two in a minute but if I just cover
02:02:47 page two in a minute but if I just cover anything um on this page first of all so first of all the the um the how the comments on housing um weren't exactly aligned with other comments that we've
02:02:58 aligned with other comments that we've been hearing um through the ministerial um groups um you you mentioned the number of people that had been displaced um uh
02:03:10 of people that had been displaced um uh but the reassurance that hotels had been found for everybody um with need I was a bit worried um about didn't really understand to appr but didn't really
02:03:22 understand to appr but didn't really understand the comments about people making things worse um than it is and I think my biggest concern is probably on page two where um well let's go to that
02:03:33 page two where um well let's go to that shall we yeah where he's saying there is plenty of support from dclg and others well I knew dclg was offering support um on housing I wasn't entirely sure that all that support had been taken up I
02:03:47 all that support had been taken up I specifically asked him about London resilience which I didn't note on here and he said that um there was uh support from London resilience um but actually you know I'm not sure
02:04:01 um but actually you know I'm not sure that there was and I I I question the word support because I I um it became clear to me in this call that Nicholas Holgate was um holding the
02:04:15 that Nicholas Holgate was um holding the the um the gold role for the council that didn't seem to be the normal um London resilience uh rotation that you would you would normally see well there's a a lot of information there if
02:04:27 there's a a lot of information there if I could just break it down of course um sorry you you say uh support did you offer
02:04:35 offer support twice uh during that conversation so uh earlier on I asked him if he needed any support he said no and then um right at the end uh I came
02:04:46 and then um right at the end uh I came back to it and asked him again if he needed um support and he very confidently told me and and these were his words there is there is plenty of
02:04:57 his words there is there is plenty of support from dclg and others what was your reaction to that well I was surprised which is why I came back to it the second time um well I I
02:05:08 back to it the second time um well I I to be honest I would have thought that even you know we we raised the funding issue um there would have been a need for emergency funding so um now Nicholas
02:05:19 for emergency funding so um now Nicholas seemed uh I mean he was obviously managing the situation he didn't have a long time for the the call um so that there were some concerns for me and I reflected on them afterwards
02:05:30 me and I reflected on them afterwards discussed this with Melanie um uh and um wondered if we should um that I with I whether I there could be
02:05:41 that I with I whether I there could be some value in in me visiting even though others um from dclg and and ministerial um visits were taking place whether there would be value in me as a former chief executive um going to see um
02:05:54 chief executive um going to see um Nicholas Holgate but also given my role as director General um for for um local government whether that would be useful you say that you um offered uh support
02:06:05 you say that you um offered uh support twice uh during that call uh did he accept it accept it I assume not given what he said no no no he was very confident that they uh didn't that they had all the support they needed
02:06:16 had all the support they needed um yeah was he hostile to the idea of central government support no I didn't see seem hostile just seemed very confident that it it wasn't needed um but seemed to me that he was trying to
02:06:28 but seemed to me that he was trying to provide reassurance that they had everything that they needed did you press him on this yes asked him twice yes asked him twice because I because I was surprised so I
02:06:40 because I because I was surprised so I asked him twice um and uh that's why we we also thought um that a visit might them be useful it's quite hard to you to
02:06:51 them be useful it's quite hard to you to really delve into things in a telephone call where somebody is is uh rushed and uh obviously dealing with a really um big emergency so I thought it would be good to just um see him did you uh
02:07:05 good to just um see him did you uh consider encouraging him to take that offer of support that you were offering in the call I believe I did I I believe I said you know we we're happy to support in any way that that you want did you specify the nature of the
02:07:17 did you specify the nature of the support that central government could offer I'm not sure I did no
02:07:24 I'd like to take you to uh Mr holgate's evidence it's day 273
02:07:31 273 157 it starts at 13 I believe so it's day 273 page 154 line 13
02:07:55 so Mr Holgate uh is asked here now according to Joe Farah you um who was the director general for local government and public services at dclg at the time he answer is yeah I'm sorry
02:08:08 at the time he answer is yeah I'm sorry I'm sorry I don't seem to have that on my screen do you have it on yours no I have a
02:08:12 have a different 157 should be the page forgive me thank you thank you can can you see there at uh line 13 it starts yes I can and and let's just um he's asked
02:08:26 can and and let's just um he's asked about uh your statement and what you say at paragraph 44 of your statement and I'll pick up at the bottom of page7 at 12:30 that's the time she puts
02:08:38 page7 at 12:30 that's the time she puts on it I spoke to Nicholas Holgate I had contacted him the previous day but this was the first time he was available to speak to me amongst other things we discussed the rehousing effort the
02:08:49 discussed the rehousing effort the involvement of London resilience part partnership emergency financial aid and counseling support just pausing there do you remember that do you remember discussing those matters and he says not very well but very happy to accept her
02:09:02 very well but very happy to accept her account she goes on to say I restated the Department's broad offer of assistance he reiterated that rbkc had plenty of support from the department and others including volunteers and
02:09:13 and others including volunteers and colleagues from other local authorities and indicated in general terms that the council was managing well do you recall saying those things things and he says well I think I was at the edge of
02:09:24 well I think I was at the edge of thinking that at the time I'd be surprised if I was quite that confident with her because you know there were contraindications so and I wouldn't have wanted to give her a sort of false
02:09:35 wanted to give her a sort of false falsely optimistic picture frankly uh right she goes on to say I twice raised the issue of whether rbkc needed support but he was firm in his assurances that
02:09:46 but he was firm in his assurances that no further support was needed uh well yes is that right I suspect that I did not have a specific requirement of her for for for further support um and then
02:09:58 for for for further support um and then he then goes on and I'll pick it up at line 14 the question is would you say that from the conversation that was an unreasonable impression that she'd got the wrong end of the stick he says well I think that it is true given the offers
02:10:10 I think that it is true given the offers of support from other burrowers and volunteers and the Red Cross and such like that we did have plenty of support we did not have one can say with certainty with hindsight sufficient support but but I think it was as much
02:10:22 support but but I think it was as much about the bridging I think that's supposed to say of the support that we had as opposed to the quantum well you've um seen there what Mr Holgate had to say what do you say to
02:10:36 Mr Holgate had to say what do you say to that um uh well actually I'm surprised that he didn't make a note of of the conversation actually as I did I think um if you're a go Commander as part of your training um there there's an
02:10:49 your training um there there's an expectation that you will keep a log so I would have thought that he would have a a log of the conversation um but uh uh and I mean he was in in the middle
02:11:00 and I mean he was in in the middle obviously of a um a really difficult situation for anyone to manage um but in my recollection and it was a telephone call so I didn't have the benefit of body language but my recollection was
02:11:13 body language but my recollection was that he was very confident and very confident that he didn't need support from dlg or others Let's uh go to
02:11:24 Let's uh go to clg4
02:11:26 clg4 8230 please it's the first email on page at
02:11:34 840 uh we can see there it's your office uh emailing the office of Miss dos I'm due to speak to the chief executive today and we'll ask him about extra support he was quite clear yesterday
02:11:47 support he was quite clear yesterday that he did not feel the need for this but I will try again and I think think if we can persuade the housing director to have some housing support that would be helpful Katherine I'm not sure if we
02:11:58 be helpful Katherine I'm not sure if we could ask the home office if we should extend the victim support unit to help the council could you look at this um so is it fair to say that the following uh morning you send an email confirming
02:12:09 morning you send an email confirming that you had spoken to him offered him support which he had uh declined he did not feel the need for it yes um why was there a need to persuade the housing director to take on housings report um I
02:12:22 director to take on housings report um I think i' had an email um well so so I mean going back to earlier comments that I'm I made to put this in context um there were concerns from the housing side of the department that um that that
02:12:34 side of the department that um that that they weren't taking the offers of support that they needed and there were there was more that central government and by this time it was becoming clear that there was more that other councils might be able to do um to help them I
02:12:47 might be able to do um to help them I think the offer from the Department was we could embed some permanent housing support in their housing team which would seem eminently sensible to me because um if there was need for
02:12:59 because um if there was need for additional funding from uh central government for example or anything else on housing support if you had someone embedded in the team um then they would be able to report back in a different
02:13:11 be able to report back in a different way um to Red through the scg they would have a more detailed understanding of Housing and what was needed and what could be drawn on so that would seem to me to be eminently sensible and I think there was an email from Helen McNamara
02:13:25 there was an email from Helen McNamara um saying I um we would need to look at it but uh asking if I could follow up because they hadn't accepted um the offer of support and I know that she asked me if I could to also go to the
02:13:38 asked me if I could to also go to the meeting um that Alex Sharma was having with the housing director and the lead member for housing and perhaps offer um that support could could we just go back
02:13:49 that support could could we just go back to the um the email of the note of your conversation with Mr Holgate that's clg4 is
02:13:59 8140 just like before we do uh uh move move on in time I'd just like to pick up one or two further things from this uh read out of yours please um we've
02:14:10 read out of yours please um we've already uh been to it it's the third bullet point up from the bottom grenfell Tower residents have been complaining for a long time about the council they have a trail of letters written to the
02:14:22 have a trail of letters written to the Council in what context was he giving you this information um he was he um he said that related to um the housing and the and uh and to Grille Tower itself
02:14:34 the and uh and to Grille Tower itself from my from my recollection did you form any op opinion about why he was saying that to you no ABS um no in fact uh no I I thought it was an odd thing to to mention um in in
02:14:49 was an odd thing to to mention um in in the call and the next bullet point point he said Nick said several people could make this worse than it is and the council is worried that they might need assistance from the police yes what was the context to that so I I think he felt
02:15:02 the context to that so I I think he felt that um uh I mean his his opinion were that um there were people that that were agitated the situation I I mean personally I felt that people would be
02:15:14 personally I felt that people would be agitated if there had been a uh an incident of this size and actually the job of the council is to provide reassurance um to the community and to be visible to the community and to be
02:15:25 be visible to the community and to be really helping people who have been um displaced and I think sometimes in these incidents you know people are are not going to be happy and they're going to and people will be well more than more
02:15:38 and people will be well more than more than un unhappy and and as a counselor it's your responsibility to help to manage that and help to make sure that people are supported so I I I found that um a bit
02:15:49 um a bit surprising you say you found it a bit surprising did you form any impression of his
02:15:55 of his attitude um not particular as I say it was it was really hard it was a very it was a short telephone conversation I wasn't able to see um his body language
02:16:06 wasn't able to see um his body language he was clearly worried about um the safety of of his his staff but but actually um you know I've been I haven't experien I have never led a situation as
02:16:17 experien I have never led a situation as big as this but I have led some fairly critical
02:16:21 critical situations and and my experience is that actually what the community wants are people that they can talk to who can help them and uh that is what is really needed in in these
02:16:33 needed in in these situations um we can see if we go over to page two please um the the final paragraph before you go on to do a readout of a conversation with the LGA
02:16:44 readout of a conversation with the LGA um it says regarding a secretary of state visit he said that counselors have been really good and it would be great if Secretary of State could recognize them Nicholas padet Brown and cabinet members for regeneration he suggested we
02:16:56 members for regeneration he suggested we give the leader the option of visiting the Secretary of State uh what H did you consider this to be an appropriate request at this time I I thought um
02:17:07 request at this time I I thought um actually I thought it was an odd request because I thought if the secretary of state is visiting um actually it's very natural for the leader of the council to meet the Secretary of State and do the visit with the Secretary of State I mean
02:17:18 visit with the Secretary of State I mean that would be usual it it seemed a bit odd to me at the time that he was asking if the leader could visit with the Secretary of State um uh but I I would
02:17:31 Secretary of State um uh but I I would have expected the leader to be there to see the Secretary of State and in fact you know when we went the next day the leader was was there and um uh yes and and I think himself had expected to be
02:17:43 and I think himself had expected to be there um what about um his comment or or what your note says here that they should be recognized the councilors should be recognized what what what was that about well I I
02:17:55 what what was that about well I I thought that was a bit early to make that um judgment really I mean we the sit the response was um still being dealt with clearly um you know there are
02:18:06 dealt with clearly um you know there are a lot of people who had been um displaced it was a bit early to judge the performance of the council did this give you any kind of uh indication about where Mr holgate's
02:18:18 indication about where Mr holgate's priorities were at that time so not not really it would be unfair to say it gave me an indication of his priorities I mean
02:18:29 priorities I mean yeah you know I'm sure he was he was very concerned with doing the right thing I I just think this is a big situation for any anyone um to manage but things that started to become clear
02:18:42 but things that started to become clear at that point were um kind of the lack of sport he was taking and particularly from London resilience because in previous incidents that uh have been managed in London there's a very visible
02:18:54 managed in London there's a very visible presence of uh of London resilience so well let's just um on that point on London resilience let's look at your second witness statement please uh CLG 30
02:19:05 30 30781 uh page for paragraph
02:19:11 14 um you say this as at the 14th of June it was my expectation that the LG resolution should be activated if it had not already been during my telephone call with Nicholas
02:19:22 during my telephone call with Nicholas holet at 12:30 on the 15th of July do you mean 15th of June sorry um I asked him if the London resilience partnership was involved he confirmed it was I did not ask and he did not say whether this
02:19:34 not ask and he did not say whether this was following formal activation of the LG resolution though it was my assumption that it was and then you then go on to say the note that you circulated um you didn't ask him uh
02:19:46 circulated um you didn't ask him uh about the LL Arrangements is that right so I asked him um if London uh resilience partnership was involved it was my assumption that they would be involved
02:19:57 involved um uh yes so uh and he confirmed that it it was but uh he said we have PL he talked about support from London resilience rather than uh jointly
02:20:08 resilience rather than uh jointly managing um the incident um with uh with hindsight um I probably should have um probed further on this it was definitely a reflection that I had afterwards um
02:20:19 a reflection that I had afterwards um and one of the Reas reasons that led Mel and I to discuss whether it would be appropriate to visit and try and glean more information um particularly on the management um of of um the local Council
02:20:32 management um of of um the local Council Arrangements I as I as I say earlier my primary concern was um from from my area of the business was to make sure that if the council was leading the response phase they did this in um a a good way
02:20:47 phase they did this in um a a good way and so uh really m concern was that they would need the um the involvement of London resilience um to help them with those gold
02:20:59 those gold Arrangements um let's go back to the um email note that we were looking at um that's clg4 8140 uh just to cover the conversation
02:21:11 8140 uh just to cover the conversation that you had with the LGA which is on page
02:21:17 two firstly I should ask what was the for you to speak with the LGA on the 15th of June um so I think I go back to my earlier comments that I was thinking very much about um the response phase
02:21:30 very much about um the response phase about whether um rbkc uh were had organized them in a way that they were able um to uh to lead the response uh wanted to check the LGA uh
02:21:45 response uh wanted to check the LGA uh knowledge of what was happening on the ground um and uh actually I was probably I was the I was the lead I the uh lead person with the relationship for the
02:21:57 person with the relationship for the local government Association in the department so it seemed appropriate for me to to speak to them and we can see there on the uh fourth bullet point down
02:22:08 there on the uh fourth bullet point down they have offered Comm support to rbkc uh they said that wider comms should highlight how we are working closely together could we copy them into our press releases in advance uh do you
02:22:19 our press releases in advance uh do you know if our Bobby Casey accepted their offer of Comm support um uh so the next day um uh it seemed to me that they um
02:22:31 day um uh it seemed to me that they um that they were yes they were still trying to work out what Comm support they needed uh that was from a conversation with the leader I I'd like to move on uh to a
02:22:42 leader I I'd like to move on uh to a conversation at 1:30 on the 15th of June then that you had uh with Miss Stores um it was a conversation for following uh your telephone call with Mr Holgate and
02:22:53 your telephone call with Mr Holgate and Mark Lloyd is that right yes um yes so well the LGA yeah uh What uh decision did you resolve to make in that conversation with m d I think you've
02:23:04 conversation with m d I think you've already answered this so This was um to visit that I I should accompany the Secretary of State um on his visit the next day to um to to um the the Westway
02:23:16 next day to um to to um the the Westway Center and then go and see the uh chief executive in person
02:23:23 it may be um obvious but why did you decide to visit um because there were a number as as you said actually there were a number of discrepancies or areas that I felt we needed to probe further
02:23:34 that I felt we needed to probe further Melanie agreed with that um uh so felt it would be useful given given my previous experience and my role in dclg for me to to do that would you normally
02:23:45 for me to to do that would you normally visit the scene of an emergency um no not Norm not normally no and um as I say I wasn't part that the response was being uh organized differently in central government so uh
02:23:58 differently in central government so uh and visits were were being coordinated in in that way so I I wouldn't have just chosen to have gone without kind of the appropriate sign off because you know visits from central government do need
02:24:10 visits from central government do need to be managed and can be canot always help did you consider because of your previous professional experience as a chief executive you had the ability to assess whether the response effort by
02:24:22 assess whether the response effort by rbkc was being well managed
02:24:28 um yes yeah yes absolutely but I I I wasn't I I think what I realized the next day um and maybe we'll discuss this later I I also felt that other people
02:24:39 later I I also felt that other people would would see the things that I had seen um I with hindsight I've really reflected on the value of experience
02:24:51 but I definitely felt it could help uh could we go to um CLG 30 30 483
02:25:02 please
02:25:10 1449 so it should be the second email in the chain
02:25:37 thank you we can see that now 15th of June at 2:49 in the afternoon actions from the 1:30 update meeting was this your meeting uh with Melanie DS was it
02:25:48 your meeting uh with Melanie DS was it an earlier meeting
02:25:56 um I I'm I'm not I don't think this was my meeting with um Melanie dors who who was present in your meeting with Melanie dors was it just I think it was just Melanie and I had uh met afterward so
02:26:07 Melanie and I had uh met afterward so that I could feedback on the conversation with Nicholas Holgate I I may have been at this meeting but I think this was a but I'm I'm not sure if I was or not I I may have been
02:26:21 well later uh that day on the 15th of June at 3:30 there was a uh ministerial meeting you didn't attend that meeting did you no um but Katherine Richardson
02:26:32 did you no um but Katherine Richardson the deputy director did is that right that's right as did Helen McNamara director general for housing and planning who you've already referred to is that right yes yes um and I'd like to take you to your um first witness
02:26:45 take you to your um first witness statement please at page 11 paragraph 49
02:26:56 uh you say here a further ministerial meeting took place at uh 5:30 could I just clarify uh is this a different ministerial meeting to the one that took place at 3:30 chaired by Nicholas herd
02:27:08 place at 3:30 chaired by Nicholas herd yes yes because I I didn't attend those meetings this would have been an internal uh departmental ministerial meeting I think I was at a different meeting at the time uh I can't but
02:27:20 meeting at the time uh I can't but yes it says I was not able to attend this
02:27:23 this meeting um but it's it goes on to say during the course of the meeting Katherine Richardson sent me a text message to inform me that number 10 are concerned about Nicholas holgate's grip of the situation we might want to get
02:27:35 of the situation we might want to get him to ask us for people to help and we can see that uh text message if we go to cg3 30628
02:27:51 yes um just to to navigate this um the responses in Gray uh the messages in Gray I believe are um Katherine Richardson and yours are in green is
02:28:02 Richardson and yours are in green is that right yes and if we start at the top it says thanks Joe sure let's chat after the Secretary of State meeting is this the 530 meeting
02:28:14 meeting um uh I'm not sure because it's quite early in the morning so there may have been another Secretary of State meeting there were regular Secretary of State meetings um during the day I don't think
02:28:25 meetings um during the day I don't think that the um the time that you can see there at the top is necessarily the time that these minutes these messages were sent okay so I'm I'm not sure then in that case um in green you say this I've
02:28:37 that case um in green you say this I've left a message for NH is that Nicholas Holgate yes um he hasn't come back yet anything particular you need me to cover I've put him in touch with our housing team about the rehousing Joe Miss rich
02:28:50 team about the rehousing Joe Miss rich son responds number 10 are concerned about his grip of the situation we might want to get him to ask us for people to help how hopefully won't be long in this meeting then I'll call did you then have
02:29:02 meeting then I'll call did you then have a telephone conversation with Miss Richardson I believe I did
02:29:09 yes what did you discuss in that in that conversation so this is where it was becoming clear that there were concerns about Nicholas Holgate personally and uh uh this is where it was becoming clearer
02:29:22 uh this is where it was becoming clearer that he was um the sole um gold um for uh local Authority so uh wasn't drawing in other Golds for um from other places
02:29:33 in other Golds for um from other places and that there were concerns that were wider um than housing uh as you can see in my message above I'm I had a number of things to cover with Nicholas Holgate but want
02:29:45 cover with Nicholas Holgate but want wanted to be sure that I was covering everything that government needed did me to
02:29:51 to cover you say um that it then became clear at this stage that he was the sole local Authority gold at that stage uh what would you say about your situational awareness and the department
02:30:02 situational awareness and the department situ situational awareness at the time I'm s I'm not I'm not I mean I it's hard for me to comment on the department Department situational awareness because
02:30:13 Department situational awareness because um as as I've said I wasn't involved I wasn't involved in the ministerial meetings where all of this information comes together so I wouldn't want to make um assumptions I think information
02:30:24 make um assumptions I think information was coming through that was conflicting with other information that we had been given such as you know the support from London resilience um and it was becoming
02:30:35 London resilience um and it was becoming a bit more obvious um that actually London resilience were were less involved we're now on at day three of the
02:30:46 the incident some considerable days had passed would you not have expected uh that you all read would be aware of what the arrangements were at the time um yes
02:30:58 the arrangements were at the time um yes and I think a reflection is that um we you know we shouldn't make assumptions um and we shouldn't um and I think actually you know we we we weren't I mean so so when you're told something
02:31:11 mean so so when you're told something it's really important to make sure that you check that out and I think this was uh the reason for me um trying to to see Nicholas Holgate so that I could make sure and as I said I was primarily concerned with the recovery phase at the
02:31:24 concerned with the recovery phase at the moment it was the council was a little bit protected um in terms of the arrangements because the response stage was being led by the emergency services
02:31:35 was being led by the emergency services so uh you know there were that that was the kind of the local Arrangements that were in place where um different actions were agreed and uh uh pulled together um
02:31:46 were agreed and uh uh pulled together um if you think it would be quite that's quite a big task um the Council then taking that on um themselves that's a for the response phase where you know
02:31:57 for the response phase where you know there are many displaced um people and you know vulnerable people and and bed people you need to make sure that those arrangements are are solid so that so
02:32:09 arrangements are are solid so that so that they can respond appropriately to to um the recovery phase following um the fire so that's what I was primar primarily concerned with and uh you know
02:32:22 primarily concerned with and uh you know one of the reassurances we would have is if London resilience were very involved in in that recovery phase given uh the fact that they can call on Mutual Aid
02:32:33 fact that they can call on Mutual Aid very easily and uh their experience of managing um other situations of which there have been several in in London you said you you mentioned the word
02:32:44 said you you mentioned the word reflection do you have any reflection about
02:32:47 about this um the situational aw that your own situational awareness at the time um it's it actually I mean that that's quite difficult really because um
02:32:59 that's quite difficult really because um you know in in emergencies a lot is happening and it's really important that people have clear roles and responsibilities and I believe my clear role and responsibility was to make sure that the council was able to run the
02:33:10 that the council was able to run the recovery phase the government had put in place um a structure to manage the the incident there were very competent people um involved in in that structure I think it's you know as as we've seen I
02:33:23 I think it's you know as as we've seen I think with the um the management of this incident in Kensington and Chelsea it's really important you don't think you can do all of this on your own so therefore not everybody can be aware of everything it's just really important it comes
02:33:34 it's just really important it comes together in a place and that place was the the ministerial group and that's why if there are actions from the ministerial group that I could undertake while um focusing on um the Council on
02:33:45 while um focusing on um the Council on whether it was ready to lead the recovery I felt that I should be able to do that um do I feel it was necessary for me to know everything um about the housing situation I think that would
02:33:57 housing situation I think that would have um uh uh just weakened my focus um so it was really important for me to be doing the things that um would help to manage this situation going forward
02:34:09 manage this situation going forward particularly um once it was a local Authority response you say uh in your statement you said in your evidence that this was really the first time that you became aware
02:34:20 became aware of issues with Mr Holgate personally um are you saying um that because Mr Holgate was not personally name with regards to any concerns of the local Authority you didn't consider that there
02:34:32 Authority you didn't consider that there might have been an issue with his leadership of the response no so um it's it's different so there's the the council is a big entity um and actually you know there is there is the official leadership reporting into uh Council
02:34:45 leadership reporting into uh Council leadership there are number of people involved there's the housing department that was obviously leading the housing effort um uh uh it's and as a chief
02:34:57 effort um uh uh it's and as a chief executive you know you you're running 900 different Services potentially for the people of your area um you you know you have to put the structure in place
02:35:08 you have to put the structure in place to make sure the response is being led effectively and so this was the first time that I was receiving messages about um the way Nicholas hogate had put the structure in place to manage the
02:35:19 structure in place to manage the situation and whether he was personally uh gripping it as he should be as a a chief executive particularly if he was the sole gold um person in this response
02:35:30 the sole gold um person in this response for the council and what about your conversation earlier that day with Mr Holgate directly there's some unusual aspects you found him surprising in in certain aspects yes which is why I thought it was important um to you know
02:35:43 thought it was important um to you know to go and see him and make and and test this in a bit more detail it's very difficult when someone's in the middle of a an emergency situation dealing with a lot of things who doesn't have a lot of time um to speak to you um to to get
02:35:57 of time um to speak to you um to to get to the bottom of everything it so felt really important to have a follow-up conversation and to do this face to face just looking at this uh message that we have in front of us miss Richardson says
02:36:10 have in front of us miss Richardson says uh we might want to get him to ask us for people to help what did you understand that to mean well I mean councils are directly elected um independent bodies and have have
02:36:22 independent bodies and have have responsibilities for running services in their area um actually C it's it's um actually there aren't um really quick mechanisms for local government to
02:36:33 mechanisms for local government to intervene and take over local councils it's going to take quite a while to to do this and and we have done it but um it doesn't happen overnight I mean this is obviously a fast moving situation I
02:36:44 is obviously a fast moving situation I mean the the best thing for the council to do is to um is to open themselves up and show where they need help and then we we can all work together as a as a
02:36:55 we we can all work together as a as a team to make sure um that that's provided and in fact that um from my experience of local councils that's normally um how the situation works so
02:37:06 normally um how the situation works so there's I've never really seen a reluctance to ask for help from central government if it's needed I mean that's not saying um there isn't just in my experience if help is needed from central government um e us years and
02:37:19 central government um e us years and we've seen this in for example several incidents of flooding across the the UK or in um you know really difficult um incidents that involved um uh terror
02:37:33 incidents that involved um uh terror terror could I take you to uh clg4
02:37:37 clg4 3203
02:37:40 3203 please it's the second email on the
02:37:45 page 15th of June uh
02:37:54 1544 an email at 1544 forgive me that's page two middle of the page at page
02:38:04 two um hi Joe so from a member of dclg to your office um hi Joe we've had a rethink please could you contact the chief exec of K andc Kensington and
02:38:15 chief exec of K andc Kensington and Chelsea with support from Fiona and Kerry as we talked about we should do this fairly swiftly can you give us the context to this um I I'm I'm trying to remember so
02:38:29 this um I I'm I'm trying to remember so this was in the afternoon of the 15th I was um going on the 16th I think um I'd been asked to raise this uh with Nicholas Holgate uh they were asking me
02:38:40 Nicholas Holgate uh they were asking me to do this um more quickly I think I had um difficulty getting hold of him I may have had a text exchange um with with him uh where I was
02:38:51 exchange um with with him uh where I was encouraging this in in the end I I actually raised it with the leader and agreed support through that route the next
02:39:00 day I'd like to um take you to the following document uh cg3
02:39:13 30628 and
02:39:19 we can see here let's uh follow
02:39:26 the forgive me
02:39:59 sorry could we go to um cg3 30414 that should be at your first witness statement paragraph 48 on page
02:40:16 11 um you say here at 5:2 p.m. I again telephoned Nicholas Holgate and left a message with him can you help us with whether that was a voicemail message or a message with his office no I left a
02:40:27 a message with his office no I left a voicemail and I also asked my office to get in touch with his office to find a time for us to meet uh the next day and I confirmed with him that I would be
02:40:39 I confirmed with him that I would be visiting the next day um yes I'm not uh it was it was difficult to to uh I from my memory um to confirm uh a a
02:40:53 my memory um to confirm uh a a meeting H you also say there in the um next
02:40:58 next line uh the next two lines down that uh Fiona Darby deputy director for homelessness within mhcg had agreed to work with the rbkc housing team uh do you know if she was then deployed that
02:41:10 you know if she was then deployed that day um uh so I saw her at rbkc the next day with the director of housing um and I think it was one of her team that we
02:41:22 I think it was one of her team that we had wanted to embed or that um the housing team had wanted to embed um in uh with the rbkc housing team to make sure there was a link back um to central
02:41:35 sure there was a link back um to central government um this was being agreed outside of my area but um because I was I was visiting and in contact with the chief executive um I was I was also
02:41:46 chief executive um I was I was also asked to raise this but I believe that and actually I'm sure that the offer of support have been raised separately with rbkc h you also say in this paragraph further down that Lizzy Clifford from
02:41:57 further down that Lizzy Clifford from the housing and Planning Group in mhclg um was also subsequently embedded at rbkc housing team and provided her expertise in support of the rehousing effort is that right yeah and she yes
02:42:10 effort is that right yeah and she yes and she was very um helpful I mean so is it appropriate this time for me to talk about um how the the when I raised the points about having housing support and
02:42:23 points about having housing support and how it came to how we came to have Lizzy embedded in the team would that be helpful so um so when I visited on the um 16th well if you're going to talk talk about the the visit could we just
02:42:35 talk about the the visit could we just uh come to that yeah sure so but but it was through the visit on the 16th and the meeting uh with Alo Sharma that we managed to embed Lizzy and we might want
02:42:46 managed to embed Lizzy and we might want to come back to that I think it's um important
02:42:49 important um I would like we will come back to that but if we could just uh move to the correspondence on the evening of the 15th of June then um we can see here an email that you received at CLG
02:43:09 43210 at
02:43:14 7:21 and I'd like to uh just draw your attention to the final paragraph of that message Alex pal popped up to try and find you Helen but neither of you were
02:43:25 find you Helen but neither of you were about Helen was Secretary of State apparently number 10 had asked whether we should intervene in KC due to poor management of housing this had come to him via red we said intervene sounded
02:43:37 him via red we said intervene sounded wrong there was already strong government response EG public inquiry bellwind scheme and support to find rehousing and we were working closely with the local Authority ell Ellie also
02:43:49 with the local Authority ell Ellie also pointed out that there are a number of similar tower blocks in various parts of the country but it sounded like there might be an appetite for us at least working very closely with the local Authority and their housing department
02:44:02 Authority and their housing department uh just pausing there um what did you understand of intervene in knnc to mean um well I um at that point I think um I I was it it was difficult to tell
02:44:16 um I I was it it was difficult to tell what we meant intervene could have meant uh could meant a number of different things so in the past we have intervened in councils uh in quite a light touchway by putting um people into the council to
02:44:28 by putting um people into the council to work with the leadership of the team uh a leadership team in the council in other areas we have um we have uh central government has taken over um the
02:44:40 central government has taken over um the running of the council putting in Commissioners to run um the council directly um these things take a number number of weeks to put in place uh actually sometimes longer it's a big
02:44:52 actually sometimes longer it's a big decision to um to take away um the UH responsibilities of a a local a local government organization who are who are directly elected um
02:45:05 who are who are directly elected um there were uh there were examples of us um doing more in in particular in one area of um of of the of the council so uh in this in this instance Alex is
02:45:18 uh in this in this instance Alex is Raising the management of housing so it absolutely did seem uh as it says at the end of this email that we should be more closely involved with the housing
02:45:29 closely involved with the housing department um and uh you know as I picked up earlier in the email from I think believe it was Sally that um uh there there seemed to be a keenness to
02:45:43 there there seemed to be a keenness to uh to for them to have more support from Fiona Derby and her team and in fact have someone embedded um within the housing department so that's what I understood um that to mean uh someone
02:45:55 understood um that to mean uh someone looking at this from just an EMA from just the email um could Commissioners have been sent in so um uh yes and some this is something Melanie and I
02:46:06 this is something Melanie and I discussed but actually it would have been hard to do that very quickly so um because because you you need to undertake a process and actually uh rbkc
02:46:17 undertake a process and actually uh rbkc are managing a number of services to to um the whole of the borrow so it's so so the question is um you H how are they managing it what's the best way um to
02:46:28 managing it what's the best way um to manage um this this situation um you know as it happened rbkc themselves recognized um that they that they needed uh or decided to change their leadership
02:46:41 uh or decided to change their leadership I think in these situations it's really important to have the right leadership of the council but um uh the council at has access to a lot of support and resources that um as as a directly
02:46:54 resources that um as as a directly elected public body that central government um might not be able to access in the in the same way so so wherever possible it's better that the local um directly elected council is
02:47:07 local um directly elected council is competent and able um to manage um it its services with residents that's the way government is structured um in this in this country but how um so so my
02:47:20 in this country but how um so so my concern really um at the time as I've said was with the response phase and making sure that there was uh that the leadership of the response um was
02:47:31 leadership of the response um was effective because um it seemed to me that that that was that was going to be the critical thing going forward making sure there was a strong local response
02:47:42 sure there was a strong local response um for the for the people of uh Kensington Chelsea and people particularly people in the in the area of grenfall Tower um and surrounding uh houses i' just like to pick up uh one
02:47:54 houses i' just like to pick up uh one point on this email um it says here that the information had been fed through red um had this information been fed through
02:48:05 um had this information been fed through red to you so I think this is probably referring to the same information that Katherine Richardson who was head of red was feeding to me about um uh the about
02:48:16 was feeding to me about um uh the about the support that rbkc needed and you know as we've seen from the text there was um there was keenness to offer housing support but uh also uh uh
02:48:29 housing support but uh also uh uh questions about um the chief executive of the local Authority as well could we go to uh much later in the evening on the 15th then uh to 10:25 CLG 48222
02:48:50 it's the second email on the page it's an email from Helen McNamara um to uh your office and it's the bottom of the first paragraph she says 77 households
02:49:02 first paragraph she says 77 households are in hotels and there are 30 people who slept in the rest bite Center this is going to require funding but the Clear View From The Minister's meeting this afternoon was that we have to step up and funding should not constrain us I
02:49:15 up and funding should not constrain us I think this sits best as part of the recovery and response work rather than the other housing issues so if you are okay to do so it would be great if you could help to cover this
02:49:26 could help to cover this aspect what did you understand uh Miss mnara was asking you to to be involved in at this point um so I understood uh it was helped with the funding um and as
02:49:38 it was helped with the funding um and as I as the local government Finance team set sat under um my remit um so it was particularly the funding issue isues um there was then
02:49:50 funding issue isues um there was then the next paragraph which talks about um the housing issues which are under Helen's um remit uh where where um Fiona was going to to um go with Alex Sharma
02:50:04 was going to to um go with Alex Sharma to meet the housing director um she wasn't able to attend so she asked me to go in her place that was my that was my understanding well I'd like to move on to uh the 16th of June then and
02:50:17 to uh the 16th of June then and Communications uh that morning um firstly uh communication received by you at 7:41 that's at CLG
02:50:33 43272 can scroll down to the email at
02:50:41 7:41 uh it's an email from L Gratton at number 10 uh to the um Office of the Secretary of State forgive me not to you but to to the office of the um Secretary
02:50:52 but to to the office of the um Secretary of State uh subject CLG support to rbkc hello I spoke to Helen Mack yesterday after the cross government meeting there are still concerns here about how well organized the response
02:51:03 about how well organized the response effort is for those in receipt of it on the ground would it be helpful for them to have more support from CLG for example a small team of people sued similar to the victim support unit could
02:51:14 similar to the victim support unit could you let me know what you think and then if we go um up in the
02:51:22 chain we can see uh that email then fil filtered to uh Miss Do's office and to
02:51:41 yours moving on then uh to a discussion uh that you had uh with Miss rich Richardson that's at clg4
02:52:00 8227 and it should be at the second email on the page 802 uh we can see here an email from Katherine Richardson 802 on the 16th of June to Robert Mason of the uh
02:52:12 June to Robert Mason of the uh resilience and emergencies Division and to your office uh the subject is CLG support to rbkc um it says thanks Helen yes Joe and I discussed ideally we can encourage
02:52:24 I discussed ideally we can encourage Nick H to ask ask us for the specific help we're offering copying Alex P who should be kept cited on this just just pausing there what did you understand uh
02:52:36 pausing there what did you understand uh encouraging Nick Holgate to ask us for the specific help we're offering to mean so um in uh in conversations uh in between uh those emails um it I was
02:52:49 between uh those emails um it I was asked I I was told that specific help had been made from uh Helen and Fiona's Fiona Darby's team to rbkc um what was that specific on
02:53:01 rbkc um what was that specific on housing on housing and that wasn't uh being accepted so uh I was asked to follow that up um when I visited the next
02:53:14 day um at 8:14 if we
02:53:22 I think importantly on that email actually we just paused on it um there were um Nick herd was also then starting to raise concerns or he may have been raising them earlier but in this email it's very clear he's raising concerns
02:53:33 it's very clear he's raising concerns about the response um on the ground and getting information to people affected so so this is uh part of the wider concerns that I then became aware of um
02:53:45 concerns that I then became aware of um and were actually really helpful to have in advance of um visiting rbkc we we've seen those earlier earlier those emails from uh Mr herd's office where concerns
02:53:56 from uh Mr herd's office where concerns were being raised by him or specific issues were being raised by him and the inquiry has heard evidence that that that those e emails started on the morning of the 15th of June but we can
02:54:07 morning of the 15th of June but we can see here the the second paragraph that you're referring to it says I've also just taken a call from the housing Minister's office uh Nick herd is continuing to raise concerns about how the response on the ground is working
02:54:18 the response on the ground is working for example getting information to people affected some of this is for the police rather than K andc but we should consider a stronger offer of support
02:54:29 consider a stronger offer of support um then go up uh then go up to the next email at 823 at the top of the page I mentioned to Melanie yesterday this is Helen McNamara saying uh we need to
02:54:40 Helen McNamara saying uh we need to really get on this actual PM is concerned and this will run away from us if we don't if we haven't done something concrete today don't think politely waiting for Nick H to ask his right
02:54:51 waiting for Nick H to ask his right tactic we are basically being told to grip was that uh the attitude uh to wait for Nick Colgate to ask for help before
02:55:02 for Nick Colgate to ask for help before stepping in no I'm no absolutely not I mean you know I was asked to ask him to um to ask for specific help and that's the way uh that it was being um phrased
02:55:15 the way uh that it was being um phrased but um I don't think anyone was politely waiting for him I know Helen's team was certainly in touch with rbkc um and uh I'd had the conversation
02:55:26 rbkc um and uh I'd had the conversation with him the day before um so so yes I me obviously wasn't copied into to this email Al though I do believe I may have seen
02:55:35 seen it and if we could go to um clg4 8230 please well before we do can I just ask this I mean what options did you have
02:55:46 this I mean what options did you have what options did we have so I mean they would have been limited I mean the rbkc was a directly elected um public body um we the powers of central government to
02:55:57 we the powers of central government to intervene are as I say are limited um uh they I I've never seen them enacted um in days so the best thing to do is to
02:56:10 in days so the best thing to do is to make sure that the council has the right um leadership in place I mean I think you know we saw um you know within a very short time actually that there was a different
02:56:21 actually that there was a different Council leadership in in place if if you have the right leadership in a council and the right resources um then it's then you know they can often um manage
02:56:33 then you know they can often um manage situations more effectively than central government central government isn't a local government service provider yeah I understand that but looking at what Ellen magnamar is suggesting she's
02:56:44 Ellen magnamar is suggesting she's suggesting that you shouldn't wait from Mr Holgate to ask for assistance and I was just wondering what you what powers you had to do anything else yeah so um I
02:56:56 you had to do anything else yeah so um I mean putting in Commissioners is is pretty much the last option isn't it and would take a little time yeah yes absolutely I mean and that's but that is the um I mean that's that's the the way
02:57:07 the um I mean that's that's the the way to take over um a c a council um and does that involve taking over all the functions of the council it doesn't it it usually generally it it does involve
02:57:19 it usually generally it it does involve taking over all the functions of the council I believe you may have been able to have a different Arrangement but that would have needed to be work through because obviously you know housing for one part of the burrow obviously and
02:57:31 one part of the burrow obviously and social care um obviously it's it's hard to separate one bit from the council um because they're providing um support to a large um number of um people but um I
02:57:45 a large um number of um people but um I yeah I'm not sure what um what Helen was referring to there really um uh be because actually as I said there was a a command structure um I
02:57:59 there was a a command structure um I think we saw from the 16th that actually if central government can help to persuade councils to act in the in the right way we have a a lot of software
02:58:11 right way we have a a lot of software yeah you can bring some uh persuasion to Bear but that was probably about it wasn't it ABS absolutely all right thank you yes um just if I can take you to clg4
02:58:23 clg4 8230 please it's an email at
02:58:28 8:20 it's a a document that we have seen
02:58:38 before 8:40 forgive me it's the first email on the page we've been to it before uh I just want to to ask you about the final sentence here um
02:58:49 about the final sentence here um it says I'm not sure if we could ask the home office if we should extend the victim support unit to help the council can you just explain uh what it was that is being asked here from your office so
02:59:01 is being asked here from your office so we had set up victim support units in other incidents and so I think I was asking Katherine I mean I haven't phrased that particularly well I apologies for that but I was saying Katherine could we ask the home office if we could extend the victim support
02:59:13 if we could extend the victim support unit is that appropriate because it seemed to be that that might be a a positive thing to do I believe others raised that um as well but the victim support unit in in other incidents um
02:59:26 support unit in in other incidents um had proved to be very useful and did you have any involvement in the setting up of a unit of this kind in response to the Grenville Tower fire so Jillian Kay um LED on the the setting
02:59:39 so Jillian Kay um LED on the the setting up of um of that that unit um yeah thank you Mr chairman I think that's a convenient moment is that a good point yes I think it's time we stop
02:59:51 good point yes I think it's time we stop now have a break for some lunch so we'll we'll stop there we'll resume please at 2:00 and as I said to you earlier please don't talk to anyone about your evidence over the break no I won't do thank you
03:00:02 over the break no I won't do thank you thank you very much would you go with the user
03:00:11 please thank you very much 2 o'
03:00:16 please for