Department for Levelling Up, Housing, and Communities Evidence - Wednesday 25th May 2022 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:25 would you ask dr farah to come back in please

00:00:34 [Music]

00:00:41 good right dr pharaoh i'm ready to go on i hope thank you thank you very much yes it's not true um well dr farah we were talking about uh the 16th of june i'd like to

00:00:53 uh the 16th of june i'd like to move on to when you first attended um rbkc on the 16th of june um was at the position that you attended with the secretary of state the housing

00:01:04 with the secretary of state the housing minister alex sharma and fiona darby and you arrived at 9 00 a.m so i attended um with the secretary of state

00:01:12 state to start with alex sharma and fiona darby

00:01:16 darby went i believe directly to the council to have a meeting with

00:01:21 with the housing director um you state that uh you were met by nicholas padgett brown in your statement and two councillors is that right yes

00:01:32 and two councillors is that right yes and yes uh at the westway center is that the first place that you went yes

00:01:39 um you say in your statement we don't need to go to it unless you'd uh like me to take you to it that you were surprised to find that they were unsupported by any senior officers of rbkc is that

00:01:51 any senior officers of rbkc is that correct

00:01:51 correct yes i was surprised why were you surprised um well in my experience and as a former chief executive of in local government i would have expected the the leader to

00:02:03 i would have expected the the leader to be supported by

00:02:06 by at least a senior official if not the chief executive i i personally would have seen uh a visit by the secretary of state and a director general from government as significant i would want

00:02:17 government as significant i would want to make sure that um that i was that i was able to answer any questions that that they may have and there are different roles for politicians and officers so i would have felt it important to have both

00:02:29 felt it important to have both represented the day before when arrangements were being made for your attendance did you request uh senior officers of rbkc to attend

00:02:39 attend no i didn't i i assumed they would be there

00:02:42 there did you request for mr holgate to attend i requested a meeting with mr holgate

00:02:49 uh what about uh any other uh rbkc officers at the westway center did you observe any there i i didn't i didn't observe any there were a number of people there but um

00:03:00 people there but um rbkc uh officers were weren't visible as rbkc officers if they were there would you have expected them to be there yes and i would have expected um them to

00:03:11 yes and i would have expected um them to be visible so when running uh rest centers myself previously my staff would have clearly been marked as council staff and uh there to support

00:03:22 as council staff and uh there to support how would they be marked as councils um so uh

00:03:25 so uh they would have either had a lanyard or a jacket with with some kind of indication that they were council staff but it would have been clear that they worked for the council

00:03:38 clear that they worked for the council and whilst you were there um you say that you uh spoke to the councillors were you reassured by your conversation with them no i was i was not reassured at all actually about my conversation with the councillors what did they ask

00:03:50 with the councillors what did they ask you so they asked me um questions that i felt uh

00:03:54 felt uh should have been i felt if they had had support of senior officers these were quite straightforward questions that they that should have been answered so not particularly things that the councillors themselves

00:04:05 themselves would have known but they were asking me questions about housing and availability of housing in the area about schools and about education and it i i felt that these

00:04:17 education and it i i felt that these were services that the council themselves would provide and officers

00:04:22 officers um

00:04:23 um could to give useful answers um to these questions so that worried me a bit and i um so i for example i found myself in a conversation with the leader who asked me how you know how we communicate with

00:04:35 me how you know how we communicate with schools and uh you know particularly schools or academies but you know i said well actually that would normally naturally happen through the education department in the council of all contact

00:04:46 department in the council of all contact details who would who would contact schools and that would be the route they were also so asking me about um communication and um what kind of support that they needed and uh you

00:04:58 of support that they needed and uh you know that

00:05:01 know that and were thinking of bringing in um pr support but my feeling was actually no you they needed um proper communication support to help communicate with residents i felt that officers

00:05:14 with residents i felt that officers could have given um that

00:05:17 um that that kind of that reassurance and information about where and how to receive support so i i felt that the counselors there at the time um were struggling to gain relevant

00:05:29 um were struggling to gain relevant information but

00:05:31 but but

00:05:32 but really uh were seemed very genuine in terms of their you know their real wish to help um residents

00:05:43 real wish to help um residents so you've mentioned there the uh visibility of officers the questions uh by the councillors i'd like to ask you about what you observed at the west way please

00:05:53 please um so i observed a number of things so first of all uh the absence of senior officers or or any officers um the questions that i was asked

00:06:04 questions that i was asked by councillors which i felt the council um would have been able to answer i noticed the absence of proper bedding um which seemed significant to me just

00:06:15 um which seemed significant to me just in terms of um of

00:06:17 of of the way the arrest center was uh set up um and uh i noticed that actually there were people there who seemed to still be staying

00:06:29 seemed to still be staying um

00:06:30 um in the westway center and in fact were not not in hotels so so you observe people sleeping at the west way well i think i they they seemed to me to have been sleeping at the west way they weren't obviously they weren't asleep at

00:06:42 weren't obviously they weren't asleep at the time

00:06:43 the time can i take you to clg three zeroes three zero four seven seven please and if we go to page two

00:06:53 and it's the um second bullet point uh we can see here at the top 15th of june 8 45 it's an email that you've been shown

00:07:02 shown earlier today at the second

00:07:07 the third bullet point it says there have also been a couple of concerns raised with him about the quality of the sleeping materials that were available for people last night and asked if there

00:07:18 for people last night and asked if there was anything her majesty's government could do to help the council upgrade did you consider it acceptable that these issues that had been raised on the morning of the 15th had still not been resolved by the time of your visit

00:07:30 resolved by the time of your visit so um i think as we discussed earlier i hadn't at the time of my visit i wasn't aware that those issues had been raised earlier so at the time of my visit um no i think what i so from my own experience

00:07:42 i think what i so from my own experience of setting up rest centers actually it's done in partnership with the red cross or with other providers

00:07:51 providers in my own experience actually there is the bedding is supplied so there are there is actual bedding for people to sleep on i mean it's you know so some kind of mattress or or something which didn't seem to be

00:08:04 or or something which didn't seem to be there the bedding provided is to in experience i've had before is the same so it's provided um this seemed to be the bedding there was all very different so it looked to me as

00:08:16 all very different so it looked to me as if it had come from donations i mean i may i may not be right about that but actually it didn't seem to be the kind of uh regimented

00:08:27 seem to be the kind of uh regimented um

00:08:28 um rest center that i was that i would have been used to setting up in fact i um uh only a few years before had set up rest centers in uh bath in response to an incident could i just

00:08:39 in response to an incident could i just ask you ask you about that you mentioned the british red cross and having an agreement in place for bedding uh in your experience how would that be facilitated so it's in my experience and

00:08:50 facilitated so it's in my experience and it may not be the british red cross but in my experience as a chief executive my um emergency planning department um had arrangements uh with another provider or in fact sometimes had uh

00:09:03 in fact sometimes had uh items in stock so that when we had to set up a rest center it would happen very quickly and it would it would there would be mattresses and there would be bedding and it would it would all look very similar and there would be

00:09:15 very similar and there would be therefore places for people to sleep you've um you've already said that uh the betting was of a different nature was it your assumption uh that that then

00:09:26 was it your assumption uh that that then this had been provided but by donations as opposed to a pre-arranged agreement between rb casey and another supplier it seemed like that to me um

00:09:37 supplier it seemed like that to me um but

00:09:38 but i i mean i have no evidence of that but it it seemed like that to me and in fact there was a table of donations in the westway center of which some where there were was clothing and i believe some bedding

00:09:50 bedding did you raise this with anybody whilst you were there no i didn't actually because i was raising a number of other issues and so this was just one of my observations which led to

00:10:02 which led to my assumption that actually uh that there needed to be um

00:10:08 um a proper or a a more organized gold response from the council you say that there were other issues that you were raising what other issues the ones that i have mentioned um

00:10:19 the ones that i have mentioned um primarily can you help us with how many people there were at the rest at the westway center so there were a number no there were a number of people there they mostly to me seemed to be from the voluntary sector in fact um people we

00:10:31 voluntary sector in fact um people we were introduced to or who introduced themselves to us were from um the voluntary sector so some were offering um counselling support for example um so there were a number of people

00:10:42 um so there were a number of people there and a number of um tables with people at them uh it was it was it was the lack of sort of a council

00:10:52 a council uh contact point that concerned me did you meet with any volunteers at the westway center not properly but they were introduced to the secretary of state i believe and um briefly met one

00:11:05 state i believe and um briefly met one or two volunteers but didn't have any lengthy conversation with them i'd like to move on to a meeting at 9 40 then this is still on the 16th of june um there was a meeting between the

00:11:17 june um there was a meeting between the secretary of state and nicholas padgett brown the leader at the westway center at approximately 9 40 and you say in your statement what was discussed at that meeting so um a number of things

00:11:29 that meeting so um a number of things were discussed um they

00:11:33 they people who remained at the westway center were discussed i mean i specifically remember a conversation about um

00:11:44 conversation about um instigated by the leader actually about education the one i mentioned earlier about

00:11:49 about um how to

00:11:50 um how to ensure that schools were engaged and informed which seemed strange to raise a meeting with the secretary of state i also offered at that meeting uh the leader the housing

00:12:03 that meeting uh the leader the housing support they've been offered from the department and i have to say the leader seemed delighted to to take up that offer of support he also discussed communication support as i say i i think

00:12:15 communication support as i say i i think he was looking for the wrong type of communication support so um

00:12:19 um i was able to talk to him about that and so as the secretary of state and i believe actually we we re offered we said that the lga had offered communication support again he seemed really uh

00:12:31 really uh grateful to accept that so i was slightly worried that the office of support hadn't been being given to the leader i may be wrong um

00:12:40 um but

00:12:41 but but he didn't seem to know about all of the all of the offers of support and as i say was really grateful to receive um the offer of housing support can i just

00:12:54 the offer of housing support can i just uh pause you there for one moment you said uh wrong type of communication he was asking for the wrong type what did you mean by that so he was he was wondering if he needed um some support to help with the

00:13:06 to help with the media and there were a lot of media there and felt inexperienced to deal with that i seem to remember that's the gist of the conversation and obviously that is something that as a leader you would you would think about because they

00:13:17 would you would think about because they would want to media obviously want to speak to you but he was asking you know what type of communication support could he have and and actually the lga

00:13:28 could he have and and actually the lga were offering a wide range of communication support and um

00:13:32 um including uh you know support for residents i i felt um having been through uh so some uh incidents myself so for example the

00:13:43 incidents myself so for example the incident i mentioned in bridgend where there was an international uh media presence and interest in that actually we we drew in some support um from central government which was really

00:13:54 central government which was really helped before because it it it meant that we could separate off the communication support from the actual response and and have um and have different teams who could uh answer

00:14:05 different teams who could uh answer media questions but more importantly have a team who could support residents so so that kind of knowledge and support and people who are used to dealing with communications in emergency situations

00:14:16 communications in emergency situations i felt that would be useful here for him as a leader if you haven't been through this type of situation before you wouldn't necessarily know that that was um

00:14:25 um available

00:14:26 available but uh so i felt that we could put him in touch with the local government association who were offering um support in in that area

00:14:38 your answers have probably dealt with my next question but was this visit and was this conversation with the leader reassuring no so it was it was pivotal actually in

00:14:49 no so it was it was pivotal actually in terms of uh my worry about the council on whether they really were managing the situation as they should and i think a particular worry um

00:15:00 should and i think a particular worry um were

00:15:01 were residents who were um still at the westway center and um i think there were questions by the leader and councillors about um in the sport

00:15:12 and councillors about um in the sport central government might give in order to provide funding and actually had we had seen that and that and the secretary of state had said and was very reassuring that that support was

00:15:23 reassuring that that support was available

00:15:24 available um the leader didn't seem to to know about that support and asked directly you know how he could make sure that residents

00:15:35 residents were receiving the housing that they needed and um uh i was asked to raise this at the meeting with the housing the director of housing who um

00:15:46 um you know to find out what the plan was was for residents who still had not been housed so i i i said that i would do that uh when i went to the meeting with alok sharma

00:15:58 went to the meeting with alok sharma i'd like to take you to a text message that you sent to miss richardson um clg 3030627

00:16:15 you mentioned there the

00:16:18 there the leader accepting support from housing colleagues and we can see here council leader has agreed help from housing colleagues in terms of people

00:16:26 people could you link in with housing to arrange who so that alok can let them know at his meeting thanks is this what you're referring to that the offer of support to the housing team at rbkc yes

00:16:38 support to the housing team at rbkc yes and the leader who's the leader of the council um uh accepted this so i felt that that

00:16:44 that that as one of the most senior people in the council uh i felt that uh you know this should be relayed to that meeting because he he obviously was um very happy to have

00:16:56 obviously was um very happy to have support and we can see that that message was sent at 10 13. and you then go on uh to send a message um i think they need a specialist

00:17:07 um i think they need a specialist emergency manager to help with this as well as specialist com support not sure they want this but i think it is essential can you give us the background to that message that you sent

00:17:19 background to that message that you sent yes so um

00:17:21 yes so um as you know i'd been i'd spoken to nicholas holgate um about support um was that the conversation with nicholas holgate the day before the day before and having seen um the westway center um

00:17:35 and having seen um the westway center um and

00:17:36 and putting that together with the confidence of the chief executive um i i felt that his confidence was probably misplaced because to me it seemed that having and

00:17:49 because to me it seemed that having and having experienced and having managed these situations could be really helpful and that really came from the questions from counsellors because

00:17:58 because they were the type of questions that are actually common in in emergency situations so having a reassuring presence who had led these types of situations i felt would be really helpful and i also felt that um the

00:18:11 helpful and i also felt that um the specialist communications support as i've said i mean i learned an awful lot of lessons from managing that incident in bridgend and the communication support needed and as

00:18:22 the communication support needed and as i say it has to be really wide-ranging um

00:18:25 um and i

00:18:26 and i i'm absolutely sure that the council hadn't recognized that i wasn't aware of that so uh really felt for so for me the two things they needed was someone who was

00:18:37 was who was experienced operating their gold arrangements and someone helping them with communication um you know particularly to residents um i'd like to

00:18:48 um i'd like to go next to clg three zeroes three zero six three eight

00:18:59 uh these are text messages between you and ms stores and i believe uh your messages are in gray and hers are in blue is that right yes there's also a typo on one of mine

00:19:11 yes there's also a typo on one of mine it should be comms we'll come to that um it says great we'll report back personally worried that council are out of their depth have said we will give some housing officers we'll also support

00:19:22 some housing officers we'll also support out is that supposed to be comms support with lga joe and mrs responds feel free to make big judgment call if we need to make massive whitehall offer or demand lga1 part of

00:19:33 whitehall offer or demand lga1 part of what we need to do is keep leaping ahead of the immediate situation

00:19:39 did you feel able to make a judgment call about what the response needed yes i did um and yes yeah i i did and i think if we talk

00:19:51 yes yeah i i did and i think if we talk about uh what happened later i i think i did make a big judgment uh call i also had conversation a conversation with melanie uh after these um text messages so i felt

00:20:03 after these um text messages so i felt that i had the support of um the permanent secretary um uh the secretary of state had also uh given me support he had similar concerns obviously having visited the

00:20:15 concerns obviously having visited the west way center so i i felt i had the support to be able to um to uh to to make a maker make an offer or or use um

00:20:27 make a maker make an offer or or use um some some sort of soft power to help make sure that the situation was being managed just a final message i'd like to take you to please um clg 3030647

00:20:52 we can see here in blue uh just spoke to number 10 you free to speak yes just back with s we'll call in a mo and then there's a message at 1 25 which

00:21:04 and then there's a message at 1 25 which we can come to in due course was this uh sequence of events that we can see here just speaking to number 10 is that mrs telling you that she had spoken to number 10

00:21:16 spoken to number 10 yes yes did this happen was this exchange after you had spoken uh after you'd attended the meeting with laura johnson and spoken with mr holgate

00:21:27 laura johnson and spoken with mr holgate and mr baridale um i uh what time was the message unfortunately we don't have the time all we see is that the later messages all good here is at 1 25.

00:21:39 later messages all good here is at 1 25. so i mean we had several conversations so it's just hard to pin that down so we had one after i left the westway center on the way to the meeting um with alok sharma and we had uh i believe

00:21:51 sharma and we had uh i believe another one after i'd met with um nicholas holgate and we had a further conversation um before

00:21:58 before the uh

00:22:00 the uh ministerial recovery group so we had two or three conversations i'm um not entirely sure uh which this one was i think

00:22:10 i think because there's not too much of a gap and it says manager taking over i presume this was uh earlier when i when i was talking about they need a an experienced person to take over okay well i want to move on

00:22:24 to take over okay well i want to move on to 11 o'clock that same day um rbc's housing director laura johnson um rock fielding mellon uh alex sharma the minister for housing and planning and

00:22:35 minister for housing and planning and fiona derby the deputy director for homelessness had a meeting is that right that that's right and in fact i had suggested that the

00:22:43 the uh the day before that um because the meeting was going to be with laura johnson as the director for housing i had suggested uh to the department that um

00:22:55 the department that um the lead member for housing should also be there i thought that was appropriate because of the different responsibilities of members and officers and the leadership role of members as well as officers and given that alok sharma was attending along

00:23:07 that alok sharma was attending along with um officials from government i felt that would be appropriate so i mean that was another um thing that something that stuck in in my mind

00:23:18 something that stuck in in my mind really

00:23:19 really was um

00:23:21 was um there seemed to be an awful lot of deference in kensington and chelsea from um

00:23:26 um from members to officers so people were addressed

00:23:29 addressed by their surname so mr holgate miss johnson

00:23:32 johnson um for me that that seemed unusual so one of the things that i was questioning was the amount of challenge that you have between members and officers so in

00:23:43 have between members and officers so in the councils um that i had been chief executive of um actually i was used to and welcomed uh scrutiny and challenge from members it

00:23:54 scrutiny and challenge from members it ensures that you know that you you have you have the best um the best results now in an emergency situation there there is um a responsibility as the category 1

00:24:05 responsibility as the category 1 responses from responders for officers to take more of a role so not everything would be done in the same way as in normal council business but um

00:24:16 normal council business but um the the the way the council was run i and i'm really i'm i'm acting on very thin evidence but the fact that people called each other by their surname but it it just uh

00:24:29 their surname but it it just uh raised an issue for me in terms of um what was that relationship um like in terms of their other business that was something that i spotted on the friday

00:24:40 friday and so this meeting had started and you attended after the meeting started is that right i attended towards the end of the meeting

00:24:50 so would you you would say you weren't there for that you weren't present for the whole of it not for the whole meeting i i i was there for um part of the meeting so i heard part of the discussion can you tell us what you heard

00:25:02 can you tell us what you heard um so we um so at this at this point um i

00:25:06 i uh they they had um they were finishing talking about um how the council's plans for for re-housing there was a conversation um

00:25:18 there was a conversation um which i also relayed from the leader about

00:25:24 mhclg sending

00:25:27 sending someone to be embedded within their council team i have to say that wasn't entirely welcomed

00:25:34 welcomed um who was it not welcomed by uh by the director of housing laura johnson yes so i i mean i laura to me laura johnson it was quite clear she was working

00:25:46 it was quite clear she was working really hard and um had been had been working very long hours and maybe this is something that i'll come back to but had been working really hard to make sure people were

00:25:57 really hard to make sure people were housed but i feel as the director of housing you can't do all of this on your own so um but she said to me that she uh knew lizzy from previously that

00:26:08 uh knew lizzy from previously that lizzie was very nice but um didn't wasn't entirely sure they needed that support at the moment but nevertheless i said the leader had agreed to it so lizzie will be coming and uh that's great

00:26:21 and uh that's great and we know that that's indeed what happened and that is indeed what happened

00:26:25 happened i'd like to show you an email next at clg3030515

00:26:31 it's an email sent at 2 34 that afternoon on friday the 16th of june

00:26:39 june uh the first part of it please um the meeting with housing was managed well despite it being understandably fraught

00:26:48 fraught why was it understandably fraught well i mean i felt that um

00:26:54 the laura johnson was um uh was was well that seemed tired to me you know i'm surmising but so just from

00:27:06 you know i'm surmising but so just from my impression was that uh she was tired and perhaps a bit defensive i but i felt that aloc and housing colleagues were very calm and

00:27:17 very calm and very clear in their messages and we kept reiterating um the need for support so i i felt that rather than walking away from the

00:27:29 rather than walking away from the meeting without without that offer of support being accepted i i felt that they pushed for for that and for answers um two questions

00:27:40 questions we can see that here it says eloquent housing colleagues we're very professional and it is great that we have been able to organise for someone from the housing team to work with the housing directorate at the council

00:27:51 housing directorate at the council i'd like to just take you to alex shoma's witness statement that clg1309731

00:27:59 page 9 paragraph 34

00:28:08 he says this the meeting was a real turning point for me though i had concerns following the previous day's cross whitehall meeting this was the first time i experienced for myself the way in which arby casey

00:28:20 for myself the way in which arby casey was handling the situation my overall impression was that the two individuals i spoke with were simply failing to understand the magnitude of the grenfell tower incident and the required urgency in the response

00:28:33 and the required urgency in the response from the manner of the conversation it was clear that the housing director felt irritated i and my colleagues were there we were informed that the local re-housing commitment was a distraction

00:28:44 re-housing commitment was a distraction just pausing there is that the commitment to re-house people locally within three weeks i i pre i presume so but i wasn't involved in that uh decision or commitment but i presume i presume that

00:28:56 commitment but i presume i presume that was what was being talked about it was also intimated that dclg was a distraction for them the housing director stated that she did not mind having housing support from

00:29:07 not mind having housing support from dclg embedded with the council but said she did not have time to respond to our offers of help would you agree with that uh explanation

00:29:18 would you agree with that uh explanation given by aleksandr it um it yes it it's that that was a very similar impression that i gained from

00:29:27 from the meeting

00:29:31 so after these two meetings that you had had one with the leader one with laura johnson

00:29:38 johnson what was your impression of rbkc in its leadership well i was concerned so i was concerned that there was an alignment between the there wasn't an alignment between the

00:29:49 there wasn't an alignment between the political

00:29:50 political and uh the official leadership i i was concerned that the housing director had been trying to manage this on her own and actually um

00:30:02 and actually um it seemed to me that she she was she she genuinely seemed concerned to me and wanting to do the right thing but she appeared tired she mentioned that she had been working

00:30:14 she mentioned that she had been working for a number of days i

00:30:16 i i feel that if and if they had asked for support particularly from london resilience that there would have been a rotor which i i believe would have allowed the

00:30:28 i i believe would have allowed the housing director to uh

00:30:32 to uh to just

00:30:33 to just look at the situation uh maybe more strategically or at least have support so would have been able to have time to think about other offers of help and and support because there would have been support for her in terms of

00:30:45 been support for her in terms of managing the immediate housing need and personally i think it would be

00:30:52 would be in an incidence of this magnitude and really difficult for one person to be leading

00:30:58 leading the housing response when so many people had lost their homes you've mentioned london resilience and the london resilience partnership a number of times uh could you just clarify what exactly you're referring to

00:31:11 clarify what exactly you're referring to when you say london resilience would be stepping in so i think you uh in is it the london local authority gold is that what you're referring yes is it referred to ll llag laog is what i'm referring to

00:31:23 to ll llag laog is what i'm referring to when i talk about london resilience and just to be clear that's the london local authority gold yes i'd like to go back please to to the text message we

00:31:34 go back please to to the text message we were looking at before that clg 3030627

00:31:46 uh we can see there at the um with the second message that you think a specialist emergency manager was required um melanie agrees i'm working on this now this is messages between you

00:31:58 on this now this is messages between you and catherine richardson and then you say an experienced ex-chief exec who

00:32:04 exec who has dealt with things like this or someone similar would just grip this and would and would be good joe was it the case that you miss richardson

00:32:15 was it the case that you miss richardson and uh miss stalls agreed that a a specialist emergency planner was necessary well someone who had experience of managing uh emergency situations um it seemed to me uh needed

00:32:28 situations um it seemed to me uh needed to be leading local authority gold i i actually think um that

00:32:33 that had

00:32:35 had uh kensington and chelsea um invoked the london resilience arrangements london gold arrangements um at the time then actually that would have been brought in a rotor so you i i think it's probably

00:32:48 a rotor so you i i think it's probably it's probably similar for nicholas holgate as it was for the director of housing it's very difficult for someone to manage this intensity of situation um as the gold without other experienced

00:33:00 as the gold without other experienced people

00:33:01 people helping uh had he drawn on that earlier it might have been that uh that um

00:33:08 um that the situation you know that they would have managed the situation um differently and would have had um stronger arrangements moving forward i think it had reached a point though in my mind

00:33:19 point though in my mind um where actually they just really needed to draw on someone who was experienced and they just needed clarity of leadership

00:33:30 can we take it from this exchange that you were unaware that mr holgate had been in discussion with mr barathel the day before yes i was unaware and in fact um

00:33:41 before yes i was unaware and in fact um there was no suggestion from my conversation uh with nicholas holgate that he was um

00:33:47 um he was

00:33:48 he was going to ask mr baradel to

00:33:52 to to to give additional help in fact he had said to me that they were already helping so hence at this point i i'm questioning whether that arrangement is effective and whether they they need

00:34:04 effective and whether they they need additional um support if this was how the london resilience um arrangements were working but i was questioning in my mind whether the whether the london resilience had actually been uh pulled in or not

00:34:17 actually been uh pulled in or not um so that's something that i was starting to ask and in fact saw wasn't happening later on

00:34:30 just on that point do you consider that there was any issue with reds situational awareness then so as i say i think um so the role of red is really to act as

00:34:42 so the role of red is really to act as that liaison point between um the strategic command group i mean we are now talking about their local authority response um so they would have been sitting on the strategic command group

00:34:53 sitting on the strategic command group that i mean the way it should have worked is that um information was either being fed through that strategic command group i mean that's the way it should work and

00:35:04 that's the way it should work and partners will be spotting if things aren't um working appropriately and will be feeding that will be being fed into that meeting captured in minutes and fed up to central governments that's the

00:35:15 up to central governments that's the and that's where red would capture it there's there's also uh given um

00:35:22 given um our relationship in the department with local government there's also the opportunity for people to feed this feeding concerns direct so i would have expected um concerns to have been coming in from the lga or from

00:35:35 in from the lga or from uh other other london councils or from london gold and in fact some messages i believe had started to be fed into the department um later on that thursday

00:35:46 department um later on that thursday so do you consider that this is something that red should have been aware of well red weren't i mean i i i think there's a reflection uh by the department and we see in department statement about the role of red and

00:35:58 statement about the role of red and whether they should be resourced to do things differently i think the way that they were resourced at the time was really to be a liaison point and therefore

00:36:06 therefore attend

00:36:07 attend scg meetings and feed that information back to government i mean they they didn't operate in in a in a way that they had any inspection functions of local government response

00:36:19 functions of local government response and so when you look at other organizations such as the electoral commission for for example um also very familiar

00:36:26 familiar to local government chief executives not only will they uh oversee the election process but they also have an inspection function that's allowed to that goes to uh different elections to

00:36:38 that goes to uh different elections to make sure that things are operating properly and the red certainly weren't resourced in in that way um to have that inspection function let's um

00:36:47 let's um move on please and you'll have to help us with the sequence of events here and is it the case that you then after uh exchanging these messages had a meeting with nicholas holgate so um so i

00:36:59 meeting with nicholas holgate so um so i thought that we had arranged to have a meeting with nicholas holgate at that time and certainly that i've been the liaison with his office when i arrived at uh

00:37:11 at uh at the council i found that he wasn't available to see to see me so once i finished the meeting with sharma i went to the meeting with nicholas holgate and found that nicholas holgate wasn't available to see me so

00:37:23 holgate wasn't available to see me so i spent some time with um the

00:37:27 the um

00:37:27 um the member for housing who happened to be there we spent some time with him talked a bit about the council and how it operated

00:37:38 it operated um normally i asked him about um the the deference and um calling people um by their surnames mr holgate ms johnson he said that had

00:37:49 holgate ms johnson he said that had always been very normal um in the council so again it gave me the impression that officers had uh had a strong role in the council and there was a lot of trust

00:38:01 there was a lot of trust from members in office in offices and it wasn't operating in the same way as um as other councils i don't blame the members for that actually um i believe that's a

00:38:12 that's a the culture of the of of that council it seemed unusual to me you're speaking quite fast could i just ask you to to take it slightly slower of course um

00:38:21 course um was there a time when you then had a meeting with mr holgate yes so so um so

00:38:29 so yes uh so can you tell us what time roughly that was um

00:38:35 so um

00:38:38 so it would have been before john barradale took over so there was confirmation of that at 1 30 so maybe 12 30 to 1 o'clock

00:38:49 i thought i was seeing him about 11 30 i thought i'd arrange to see him so

00:38:55 so it was after it was after that time when you did eventually then meet with mr holgate what did you discuss with him well i

00:39:06 what did you discuss with him well i mean it was it was a strange meeting um in my view so uh because people are coming in and out of the office i i found it hard to

00:39:17 out of the office i i found it hard to um gain his attention was he in his office or in the back it was he was in his office um which seemed to have been set up as a

00:39:29 um which seemed to have been set up as a sort of

00:39:30 sort of gold command there seemed to be a link to another office john barradel was in and out i noticed which

00:39:41 so so so that was happening so there were then conversations going on with nicholas holgate and john baradel and others that while i'm trying to have this

00:39:49 this meeting so it was very hard to kind of ascertain

00:39:53 ascertain um what support was needed but it did show me

00:39:57 show me that actually they just needed some organization and experience and somebody overseeing the gold arrangements um in rbkc

00:40:08 in rbkc you've mentioned mr baridale was coming in and out and speaking to mr holgate was he introduced to you um

00:40:14 um yes

00:40:15 yes uh how was he introduced to you um as uh john baradel from any official title given to him no did you know why he was there um

00:40:27 um so i was told that he was there um looking at the arrangements and uh with the purpose of giving some support to nicholas holgate as the

00:40:38 to nicholas holgate as the council

00:40:40 council lead and was that mr holgate that told you that uh i think it was john barrett actually it was in the middle of these um conversations so mr baradel told you that he was there to support what did

00:40:51 that he was there to support what did you think of that well i thought that actually i thought they really needed an experienced specialist emergency manager who was going to be able to run

00:41:03 manager who was going to be able to run the council gold arrangements in a way that i would normally have expected it to be

00:41:08 to be run i mean nicholas holger had clearly been working really hard for a number of days

00:41:14 days um

00:41:15 um with with at at that point it became clear that he hadn't had uh the rotor arrangements the help of other chief executives and it wasn't clear actually that

00:41:29 and it wasn't clear actually that to me

00:41:30 to me that he had requested help from uh john baradel or or that

00:41:38 or that john was taking over as local authority gold it seemed to me that that my impression was and maybe i'm not clear on this point but my impression

00:41:49 clear on this point but my impression was that nicholas holgate was retaining the local authority gold and john barrydale was there to support what did you think should happen so i thought as i said they should have a so

00:42:02 said they should have a so someone such as john baradel with experience should be taking over as local authority gold with the agreement of the council i thought that would have seemed sensible as i said if london

00:42:13 seemed sensible as i said if london resilience arrangements were invoked a few days before and there had been a rotor system actually that may have have worked but at this time you have a chief executive who's been managing the situation is now tired

00:42:26 been managing the situation is now tired after three days things aren't happening as they should be it felt to me that it would be really beneficial to have a fresh pair of eyes and some experience um to run the recovery

00:42:37 um to run the recovery bit of the operation which which is obviously

00:42:41 obviously given my role the part that i was particularly concerned to look at so what did you do so i had a conversation with john barradel was that with him alone or with him alone outside of the nicholas

00:42:52 him alone outside of the nicholas holgate's office so we had a conversation and uh john agreed with me actually that it would be sensible and for someone like him um

00:43:02 um to be

00:43:04 to be the gold commander he then mentioned that if he took over there'd be a rotor system

00:43:09 system i questioned that and said wouldn't it be better to have one person in the lead and then the rotor as support so that there's one point of contact given the magnitude of the situation and and

00:43:21 magnitude of the situation and and consistency he agreed with that he said that would need to be agreed with london councils so i

00:43:29 so i so i rang john o'brien who's john o'brien the chief executive of london councils and we had a conversation about this and he also agreed in fact he said

00:43:40 this and he also agreed in fact he said that london councils and london resilience had spotted that things weren't as they should be hence

00:43:48 hence john barradale coming to support nicholas holgate and he agreed that it would be good to have one point of contact um

00:43:57 um to

00:43:58 to to steer

00:43:59 to steer the operation i left it at that i think at that point i phoned melanie and catherine richardson possibly but i know i had phone calls

00:44:11 possibly but i know i had phone calls when i went back into the room and the situation had changed and john baradel was then leading taking over as goal commander i felt very relieved

00:44:23 goal commander i felt very relieved about that i thought that was the right thing in this situation just going back ever so slightly um you mentioned that you've had this conversation with um mr baridale and mr john o'brien over the phone

00:44:35 john o'brien over the phone how had you left it with mr o'brien and mr baradar what was your expectation so mr mr baradel uh said that uh i would need to speak to

00:44:48 need to speak to john o'brien and john o'brien said leave it with me which i did for half an hour even less and as i say when i came back into the room um

00:44:59 i came back into the room um it things were different and that was really good news as far as i was concerned and

00:45:05 and how was it how was it different and who told you it was different so at that point then uh john baradel with nicholas holgate in the room i believe it's john barradel um or it might have been

00:45:16 barradel um or it might have been nicholas holger actually that said john baradel is taking over as local authority gold uh and that uh nicholas was going to then help him support him so the

00:45:28 support him so the the roles had um changed around so we're going to support him and uh by that time then we heard that there was going to be a prime minister

00:45:38 minister chaired meeting at two o'clock and that john would take the lead for local authority gold at that meeting so all of this i found very uh reassuring and

00:45:49 uh reassuring and in fact i i also saw john uh speaking to someone and talking about the type of support he needed to bring in so again also very reassuring

00:46:00 reassuring was this operating within the llag arrangements as you knew them to be or was there something outside i i um well i know they were this this looked more normal in terms of

00:46:13 this this looked more normal in terms of the llag arrangements so you know whether councils i presume councils are usually more proactive in asking for support but very

00:46:24 proactive in asking for support but very early on in an incident it seems to be me that the llag arrangements in london are operating more on this footing albeit with a rotor basis not always with um a permanently chief executive

00:46:39 with um a permanently chief executive i'd like to take you then we've been to it before a text message at clg3030647

00:46:49 we can see there at 125 you sent a message i believe this is to melanie dawes all good here now jb leading council gold i am reassured and i'm currently sorting out his

00:47:01 i'm currently sorting out his appointment with london council's joe what did you uh have to arrange with london councils so that was the bit about are they happy um which i think was in well i'm sure was in their remit

00:47:13 was in well i'm sure was in their remit are they happy for one gold commander albeit with a rota system of support but that was outside of their usual arrangements so um you know there'd have to be some agreement to

00:47:24 there'd have to be some agreement to that probably with rbkc um

00:47:27 um but that so that's uh what i was talking to john uh o'brien about and he seemed to think that that wasn't an issue so i believe i had two conversations with john o'brien

00:47:47 you you say that you were sorting out his appointment and you've explained that you spoke to mr o'brien that there had to be an agreement was that your understanding yes that was my understanding and john baradel certainly told me that in order

00:47:59 baradel certainly told me that in order for that type of arrangement to happen there had to be an agreement and the appropriate person to speak to would be john o'brien so that's that's what i did um after these exchanges and after you

00:48:12 um after these exchanges and after you had heard what the arrangement was going to be

00:48:15 to be did your involvement cease that day so i stayed for some of the gold meeting and then i believe i had a phone call um so i i um and i i can't

00:48:26 um so i i um and i i can't i can't remember who the phone call was with i know i spoke to alex sharma again that day but that may have been earlier and i know i spoke several times to melanie but she would have been in that gold meeting but i had another phone

00:48:38 gold meeting but i had another phone call about about the situation um

00:48:43 um and then that was the end of my involvement but that was the end of my involvement at the council um there were other things that day later on but

00:48:54 just to um finish off uh with the conversations about uh mr baridale clg3030626

00:49:11 we can see here a message between you and catherine richardson where you say john just said the red contact so your usual level let em know we have spoken

00:49:24 usual level let em know we have spoken and you're arranging it will be the person on the scg i guess what was that about so john burridell really usefully i think um and not generally red's role but asked if he

00:49:35 generally red's role but asked if he could have a permanent red contact um embedded

00:49:39 embedded um in his team uh that wasn't something that we usually did but i agreed that and he said that that later on he said that have been exceptionally helpful and i believe the

00:49:50 exceptionally helpful and i believe the department has reflected um on that you mentioned earlier indeed uh miss stalls sent you a message saying feel free to make her a a massive whitehall

00:50:01 free to make her a a massive whitehall offer

00:50:02 offer um

00:50:03 um what was the the massive whitehall offer that you made no so i didn't make a massive whitehall offer i think my um what i felt that melanie um and in fact uh sadhu javid as well

00:50:14 uh sadhu javid as well were saying is that you know feel feel free to make a call a judgment call and i felt that for me making sure the right leadership was in place and that they

00:50:25 leadership was in place and that they then would be uh very happy to ask what was needed of whitehall that was that seemed to be the most um sensible thing for me to do and that's what i did and

00:50:37 for me to do and that's what i did and in fact um uh john then did assess the level of support that they needed from whitehall starting off with the red contact so i i agreed that um and then there were several con

00:50:49 there were several con contacts after that um with melanie and others where um the support of central government was drawn in so i i i think that this this change in uh leadership was

00:51:02 this this change in uh leadership was really significant you mentioned the term soft power earlier what did you mean by that so i'm it

00:51:11 so i'm it it's um

00:51:13 it's um so so i had no formal power and i i don't i really believe i didn't overstep the mark or do anything outside of uh you know normal governance but i feel i had the

00:51:25 normal governance but i feel i had the right conversations and um it encouraged people to do the right thing and it was probably the quickest way of making sure the right leadership was in place as we spoke about earlier

00:51:36 was in place as we spoke about earlier it's not always quick to bring in commissioners to take over a council but the most important thing is you have strong leadership and that you have really clear

00:51:48 and that you have really clear governance arrangements when you're overseeing this problem and these incidents and that's something i've learned

00:51:55 learned both as a chief executive and in central government and that so for me it was absolutely critical to have those things in place and that's why i was so reassured uh when the arrangement um

00:52:09 reassured uh when the arrangement um arrangements changed you mentioned they're the commissioners and there was a discussion earlier about it

00:52:16 it did you at any point uh give consideration to the powers under section five of the civil contingencies act is that something that was considered to your knowledge um can you remind me what can i see what

00:52:27 um can you remind me what can i see what that is

00:52:29 that is so that i don't refer to the wrong thing thank you

00:52:39 let me take you to cab four zeros four six one six

00:52:50 and if we could go to section five

00:53:04 um section five one a minister of the crown may uh by order require a personal body listed in part one of schedule one to perform a function of that person or body for the purpose of

00:53:16 body for the purpose of and in this context it would be taking action

00:53:19 action taking other action in connection with an emergency or a subsection b reducing controlling or mitigating the effects of an emergency was any consideration given to the minister's power under this

00:53:31 to the minister's power under this section

00:53:32 section um so there may have been as i say there was a um

00:53:36 was a um a structure in place in central government and it's quite possible um that that that was discussed i mean my uh and at that point the local i think at the at that point um

00:53:49 i think at the at that point um the scg was still being uh it was still in the

00:53:53 in the response phase it was being managed by the police i think it would it it would have been unusual for a minister of the crown to to take over that part of the response i think

00:54:04 that part of the response i think um and there may have been conversations um about the council i know the concerns about the council were increasing my concern was to make sure that they had the right leadership in place which

00:54:15 had the right leadership in place which i think

00:54:16 i think then

00:54:17 then then

00:54:20 reduced the need for for this to take place i think if the change had not been made then we i can i imagine that government would have would have looked um or considered

00:54:33 have would have looked um or considered taking

00:54:35 taking um

00:54:36 um a different action well that might have been quite a long-winded way of doing anything written it because i think i'm right in saying that an order on section five has to be made by

00:54:47 order on section five has to be made by a statutory instrument subject to the affirmative resolution procedure you know that's absolutely right and so it may have taken even at its uh even if it was um prioritized and done

00:54:59 even if it was um prioritized and done really quickly it wouldn't have happened in in in hours so it seemed to me well it wouldn't have happened in days would it under the affirmative resolution absolutely i think you're

00:55:10 resolution absolutely i think you're absolutely right um mr chairman um and so for me

00:55:14 so for me making sure the right leadership was in place as quickly as possible um seemed uh seemed to be and the most important thing and and therefore it seemed important to intervene in the way

00:55:27 seemed important to intervene in the way um that i did can you recall if parliament was sitting at this time uh

00:55:32 uh i can't recall actually um i'd like to um move on please uh to and take you to your witness statement um it's the penultimate uh paragraph so

00:55:45 um it's the penultimate uh paragraph so clg

00:55:46 clg four zeros three four three six

00:56:02 now forgive me an email if you could

00:56:10 if we can scroll down to the next page

00:56:14 it should be on page two

00:56:20 uh the meeting was housed the meeting with housing was managed well despite it being understandably fraught this is the uh message uh in respect in respect of the meeting with laura johnson

00:56:31 the meeting with laura johnson you then go on in the next two paragraphs we're putting a person from red in the response team to support john and act as a link back to central government

00:56:43 government is this the role that miss mcmanus then subsequently went to phil yes yes i believe so yes and then right at the very end of that email you say having been quite concerned this morning about the

00:56:54 concerned this morning about the council's ability to manage a situation of such magnitude i am much more reassured now that they have the support of john b john barrowdale who has experience of managing emergency situations you could

00:57:07 managing emergency situations you could see that a proper structure was being put in place

00:57:16 would you agree that after the 16th of june your involvement then subsided uh

00:57:23 uh yes to a large extent there are other things

00:57:26 things that i did after the 16th of june but this was

00:57:31 this was my main involvement in the in the in that week

00:57:38 you say in your first witness statement clg three zeros three zero four one four um

00:57:45 um at page 22 paragraph

00:57:52 106. in my opinion rbkc's response to the fire was inadequate do you still stand by that assessment yes

00:58:04 what was inadequate about it um so this it was is now in the benefit of all the information i now have but i i believe not drawing in um

00:58:15 have but i i believe not drawing in um the support of others particularly the london gold arrangements uh meant that the council struggled to provide the response that it needed it didn't

00:58:26 the response that it needed it didn't have

00:58:28 have other

00:58:28 other experienced people to help

00:58:32 to help and therefore was unable to to respond particularly in the first few days to the size of the incident

00:58:43 do you think that dc lg red operated effectively in the response to the fire so i i believe that um that red was resourced um and uh to act in a certain way and i i

00:58:56 and uh to act in a certain way and i i personally saw the efforts of red and uh in uh particularly catherine richardson and her team and i know how hard that they worked during that period i believe they

00:59:07 during that period i believe they carried out the functions um that that they were required to do and i believe they um also went went

00:59:17 went went above that but i think the departments uh reflected in its final statement on you know whether the role of red should be different to that but at the mo at that

00:59:28 different to that but at the mo at that point they were resourced to be a liaison point between the scg and central government and and i believe that that's that's what they did do you consider given the refusals of

00:59:39 do you consider given the refusals of support by mr holgate on more than one occasion that intervention by dclg could have happened sooner well i mean i think as we've discussed intervention is actually quite hard i mean we were just

00:59:52 actually quite hard i mean we were just talking about intervention under the civil contingency intervention in the sense of the action that you then subsequently took do you think that could have happened sooner um it's the the action that that i

01:00:03 um it's the the action that that i personally took yes um possibly by it's difficult to say um actually i mean i'm i'm really pleased that i

01:00:14 i mean i'm i'm really pleased that i went there on the friday um and was able to see those things uh on the it

01:00:20 it would would i i mean i i was therefore able to

01:00:24 able to meet with the leader other councillors a number of the middle of the incident on the wednesday or the thursday would would i have seen those things so clearly i mean that's something i i ask myself i do think um that the

01:00:38 i i ask myself i do think um that the value i think the department um has learned something about the value of experience i i think even i uh with the experience hadn't realized how significant that could be and i think

01:00:50 significant that could be and i think that's something that you know we have all reflected on well thank you dr farah those are the questions i have prepared for you

01:01:02 right so we need to have a break break at this point um dr barry just said you understand when council gets the end of her questions we have to have a short break first to

01:01:12 first to let her check that she hasn't left anything out but also to allow other people who are following the proceedings from elsewhere to suggest questions that perhaps we ought to put to you

01:01:23 to you so we'll stop now i think we'll combine it with the afternoon break shall we yes and

01:01:28 and take a little longer than we might otherwise do for this we'll come back at quarter past three and at that point we'll see if there are any more questions for you thank you very much all right could you give the usher then please

01:01:41 [Music] thank you very much cool fast three then

01:17:28 would you ask dr farah to come back in please

01:17:41 [Music] all right doctor pharaoh we'll see if there's any more questions we need to ask you shall we thank you yes it's my hotel two questions uh please uh we've

01:17:52 hotel two questions uh please uh we've heard uh earlier you said that you were a chief executive in the experience that you received as a result of uh being a chief executive and responding to emergencies

01:18:03 executive and responding to emergencies can you help us with whether you received training when you were a chief executive on civil contingencies yes um on a number of occasions did you attend epc for example the emergency planning college i did on

01:18:15 the emergency planning college i did on one occasion i also had um training uh by different providers and two other occasions

01:18:23 occasions at least

01:18:25 at least and the final question is is there anything else that you would like to add to your evidence that may be relevant to the inquiries investigation i think i'd like to make two comments and probably three

01:18:37 and probably three lessons if that's okay so um first of all i'd like to thank the inquiry for inviting me and for allowing allowing me to

01:18:46 to um to give to give evidence i feel that that's been really important and uh you have helped me to to give to give my evidence in in whitefield has been in a very positive way

01:18:57 very positive way and the second thing which i wasn't able to mention at the beginning um is just my admiration of the briefed and survivors of the grenfell tower fire

01:19:08 survivors of the grenfell tower fire i met a number of them since since the incident happened i've always been so

01:19:16 so impressed

01:19:17 impressed by their bravery and by their commitment to find answers i've always found them to be um very positive and an inspirational uh group of people to work with

01:19:27 with i think my three lessons um first of all um

01:19:31 um we've talked about this but is the importance of experience and i'm not sure i realized how important

01:19:40 important that was until that that friday i'm glad i've been able to talk about that and i know the department has

01:19:48 has reflected on that um in in terms of its its evidence and uh about building that in uh to its response i think the other thing uh i'd like to reflect on the

01:19:59 thing uh i'd like to reflect on the second thing is the importance of being really clear about rules and responsibilities so being clear who is the

01:20:07 the local authority gold being clear about when and how to bring in support and being clear through that strategic

01:20:18 and being clear through that strategic command group of asking for support um when it's

01:20:22 when it's necessary i think the the last point i would reflect on um is the absolute uh essential

01:20:31 essential important nature of having a visible presence for people who are impacted by incidents such as this is so important for the community to know who

01:20:42 important for the community to know who to go to and to be able to ask for help and information i think that will greatly help um to to reduce distress in what is a really

01:20:53 reduce distress in what is a really really difficult situation so thank you very much

01:20:57 very much thank you

01:20:58 thank you very much for coming to give your evidence today and for assisting us with our investigation thank you and i'd like to add my thanks to you on behalf of the panel it's been very useful to hear what you have to

01:21:09 very useful to hear what you have to tell us we've learned quite a lot about the events of those few days after the fire which i think we were unclear about so you've really added to our store of knowledge and it's been very interesting

01:21:20 knowledge and it's been very interesting to hear what you have to tell us generally so thank you very much indeed for coming and giving us your time thank you thank you all very much you're now free to go of course thank you thank you

01:21:41 well mr hofstra we don't have another witness today is that right no we don't but we do tomorrow and we have one tomorrow morning so we'll stop at that point for today and we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning thank you very

01:21:53 o'clock tomorrow morning thank you very much 10 o'clock tomorrow morning