Witness testimony from Samuel Daniels who lived in Flat 135 on the 16th floor with his father Joseph. Samuel was his father's full-time carer and describes their escape attempt and the devastating decision to leave his father behind.
00:00:14 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to hear more evidence from people who were in the tower at the time of the fire yes mr. Allen good morning mr. chairman
00:00:27 yes mr. Allen good morning mr. chairman can I first of all apologize for the slightly late start unfortunately the our first witness this morning experienced some transport difficulties coming here can I now
00:00:39 difficulties coming here can I now please call Samuel Daniel's thank you
00:01:15 [Music]
00:01:28 thank you very much mr. Denham sit down make yourself comfortable I'm sorry you've got held up I gather on the way here
00:01:34 here yeah sir as well no no it's not your fault I'm I'm sorry you had the problem but there we are you're here now and we're looking forward to hearing from you
00:01:42 you yes mr. Lowe thank you Miss Jem good morning mr. Daniels can you give the inquiry your full name please Samuel Ian Daniels thank you very
00:01:54 please Samuel Ian Daniels thank you very much for coming to give evidence today what I first thing I need to do is formally put your statement into evidence so can we have on the screen please I WS five zeros six oh eight this
00:02:14 please I WS five zeros six oh eight this is the first page of the statement that you've provided to the inquiry I think you're ahead of mean that you've already paid up that there's a copy of the statement in the bundle in front of you but if you prefer using the screen it'll
00:02:25 but if you prefer using the screen it'll appear on the screen in front of you as we go through your evidence we go to the last page or page 15 of that statement please
00:02:35 please [Music]
00:02:43 you can see there that the statement is dated the 31st of May 2018 and it's signed can you confirm this is your signature yes it is there are no
00:02:57 signature yes it is there are no exhibits to the statement but just for the record there is an appendix which is a floor plan which is on the next page of the statement and that's a plan of the layout of your flat isn't it
00:03:08 the layout of your flat isn't it yes have you had an opportunity to read your statement recently I have and can you confirm that the contents of the statement are true to my recollection
00:03:21 can I start by explaining what I'd like to cover with you today my questions are going to focus on the night of the fire and I appreciate that that's not going
00:03:32 and I appreciate that that's not going to be easy to deal with if you feel that you need a break at any time please let me know we'll stop there's no rush in giving your evidence so please do take
00:03:43 giving your evidence so please do take your time I will try and keep my questions short and straight forward but if I do ask your question which you don't understand then just tell me and
00:03:54 don't understand then just tell me and I'll try and ask question in a different way thank you could we just go back to the first page please
00:04:06 and just expand paragraphs one to five
00:04:14 could we start pleasing stands just with some background it's right isn't it that you and your parents moved into flat 135 on the 16th floor of Grenfell tower in
00:04:26 on the 16th floor of Grenfell tower in 1983 yes
00:04:28 1983 yes and you were a year old at the times that right yep and that you had a tenancy and was that with our bkc
00:04:39 tenancy and was that with our bkc my parents did the earth and although at some point in time your your mother stopped living at the flat but is it right that your father Joseph Daniels
00:04:51 right that your father Joseph Daniels lived in flat 135 for the rest of his life yes and you tell us and we can see that at paragraph 3 on the screen you
00:05:03 that at paragraph 3 on the screen you lived in the flat for all of your childhood and then whilst you spent some time away you returned to live with your father in 2012 is that right yeah that's
00:05:15 father in 2012 is that right yeah that's right and then because of your father's poor physical and mental health you eventually had to give work or give up
00:05:26 eventually had to give work or give up work in 2016 and you then became his full-time carer is that right that's correct
00:05:35 could I now ask you please a few more questions about your father's health and particularly your father's health as it was in 2017 if I could have the next
00:05:47 was in 2017 if I could have the next page of the statement please
00:05:58 and let's leave that as it is if we try and take it in stages mr. Daniels in this part of your statement you've explained that your father had problems
00:06:10 explained that your father had problems with his mobility was he able to walk up and down stairs for a short period but not not more than a couple of flights
00:06:24 and how long had he been in that condition that meant that he could only walk up and down a couple of flights probably about a year and a half so if
00:06:37 probably about a year and a half so if your father had to leave his flat for any reason would he have to use the lift yes and what would he do if the lifts were broken he wouldn't be able to leave
00:06:51 so were there periods of time when your father didn't leave the house at all yeah I think the last two months of his life he hadn't left and so that's April
00:07:07 life he hadn't left and so that's April and May of 2017 yeah but were there longer even longer periods that he had to spend inside the flat and not as far as I'm aware
00:07:24 could your father manage basic activities like washing no so was it the case at that time that you had to do everything for him yes
00:07:37 everything for him yes it's more that he wouldn't so he had to be prompted and getting in and out of the bath was a difficulty if we expand paragraph 11 on the on the screen please
00:07:56 what you say there is that a lot of your role as his carer involved supervision and your father needed someone to look after him to ensure that he remains safe
00:08:08 after him to ensure that he remains safe I reminded him to take his medication I'm sure that he had healthy food I stopped him from throwing things out of the window or engaging in similar dangerous activities I'll come back to
00:08:21 dangerous activities I'll come back to the issue about throwing things out of the window in a while but essentially were you did you have to spend much of your time with your father nearly all of
00:08:35 your time with your father nearly all of it
00:08:36 it how easy was it to leave him without supervision it was a worry it was a constant worry at the time in 2017 was
00:08:48 constant worry at the time in 2017 was your father registered disabled No
00:08:56 did we look at paragraph 9 for a moment please what you say there is your father suffered from diabetes and you'd
00:09:07 suffered from diabetes and you'd requested assistance from Social Services and he'd been provided with a number of mobility aids did your father have a social worker in 2017 no and so
00:09:19 have a social worker in 2017 no and so can you just expand a little about what was your contact with Social Services at that time I didn't have any any contact
00:09:32 that time I didn't have any any contact with Social Services as far as I remember he was diagnosed within dementia by a nurse I had to get in and I forgot the agency they came through
00:09:43 I forgot the agency they came through they might be related to social services but I don't think so I know his name but was it through that agency that you then were able to get mobility aids for your father
00:09:56 no that was through the council so that would have that would have been social services so did someone come to the flat to speak to you about what your father needed yes then then and there what then
00:10:09 needed yes then then and there what then followed was that mobility aids were provided there were a few mobility aids provided not as much as I requested
00:10:21 you've already touched on this but what we also need to understand about your father is that as well as being in poor physical health you've explained you
00:10:32 physical health you've explained you explained this in your statement he also suffered with mental health problems for many years and had been diagnosed with dementia in 2015 hunting I'm not sure of
00:10:43 dementia in 2015 hunting I'm not sure of the date at the moment but well let's look at paragraph 10 then and that may help you
00:10:54 what you says your father had mental health problems his whole life even when my mum still lived in the flat he would throw things out the window including bookcases and chairs and at the end you
00:11:06 bookcases and chairs and at the end you say he developed dementia which was diagnosed in late 2015 and the throwing things out of the window was a feature
00:11:17 things out of the window was a feature of your ment father's mental health difficulties wasn't it I would so so and what did you have to do to the windows then to stop him being able to throw things out well since the refurbishment they had
00:11:29 well since the refurbishment they had keys so you could lock them so they were all locked apart from my bedroom window the kitchen window could open about three inches so not enough to get anything substantial out of it because of your father's
00:11:47 out of it because of your father's mental health difficulties did he become confused at times maybe constantly but what sort of things could disorientate your father
00:11:58 your father banging drilling been given new information what most things were confusing was he someone then who needed
00:12:13 confusing was he someone then who needed a very rigid routine in order not to get distressed or anxious I would say he did need the routine he didn't have one so
00:12:26 need the routine he didn't have one so did you struggle to try and encourage him to follow a routine absolutely
00:12:40 taking you back to 2017 you've told us about your father's physical difficulties his mental health difficulties given the state of your father's health did you have any
00:12:52 father's health did you have any concerns about him living in a flat on the 16th floor yes I did and what were those concerns in the event of a fire he
00:13:03 those concerns in the event of a fire he wouldn't be able to escape seeing as you can't use the lifts and was in reality was that the only way that your father could leave his flat yes without a lot
00:13:17 could leave his flat yes without a lot of assistance and did you at any time ever try before the fire to to get your father to come down the stairs No
00:13:33 could I move on please just to a different topic and that's what you knew about what to do in the event of the fire can I take you
00:13:44 in the event of the fire can I take you to page four of your statement and we'll look at paragraph 25 I'm just going to read it out in full but what you say is
00:13:56 read it out in full but what you say is before the refurbishment there were signs on the landing explaining what to do invent of fire I do not remember ever being given any other information about fire safety I do not recall exactly what
00:14:09 fire safety I do not recall exactly what the sign said as I had lived in the flat all my life I did not really pay much attention to them in childhood it had been drummed into me that in the event of fire you should stay put
00:14:20 of fire you should stay put unless the fire was in your own flat in which case you should evacuate I had no reason to think that this advice had changed I do not remember the signs being there after the refurbishment so
00:14:33 being there after the refurbishment so what just to pick up on that last sentence is it the position that the signs that you've seen before the refurbishment as far as you can remember we're not there after the refurbishment yeah I don't remember seeing them
00:14:45 yeah I don't remember seeing them afterwards but then I don't remember them being there before either I knew I had seen them before but but once you've seen them you don't pay attention to them anymore so they just
00:14:56 attention to them anymore so they just blend into the background and who was it that drummed into you that in the event of a fire you stay put I've got no idea but it's very much is that very much
00:15:07 but it's very much is that very much something that was in your mind throughout your time living in grandpa's out yes I mean I think there was a fire previously that I was in so I think I
00:15:18 previously that I was in so I think I think from then onwards I had it in my head that he had to stay puts and put towels underneath the doors to stop smoke coming in I'd like to just show
00:15:30 smoke coming in I'd like to just show you a photograph but before I do mr. chairman if I could just give the usual warning it's a photograph we've actually seen before it's taken after the fire
00:15:41 seen before it's taken after the fire but for those who may find any such additional images stressing if they wish to leave now would be the time but again looking at the hearing room I don't think there's anyone who feels the need to do so could
00:15:53 anyone who feels the need to do so could we have please be la 4 zeros 2 4 1 6
00:16:04 just to explain this photograph to you mr. Daniels it's a photograph of a fire safety notice and it's it was sighted between the lifts on the third floor and
00:16:18 between the lifts on the third floor and we can see at the top it says there's a stay put policy for residents unless the fire is in or affecting your flat and this is a notice that was there after the refurbishment on the third floor the
00:16:31 the refurbishment on the third floor the question I'd like to ask you is this do you remember seeing a notice like that on your floor no no and if we break that
00:16:42 on your floor no no and if we break that down is it no I don't remember oh I don't remember seeing that sign anywhere and you say you don't remember seeing it anywhere I mean did you know did you see any sign similar to this on any other
00:16:54 any sign similar to this on any other floor in the tower no
00:17:03 so going back to what you told us in in paragraph 25 in 2017 what was your understanding of what you should do as a
00:17:14 understanding of what you should do as a resident in the event of a fire in the tower stay put unless told to do otherwise and again
00:17:28 unless told to do otherwise and again just for clarity after the refurbishment did you get any advice from any organization about what to do in the events of a fire no did anyone provide
00:17:45 events of a fire no did anyone provide you with any information about what you should do as the care of your father in the event of a fire no did anyone ever
00:17:58 the event of a fire no did anyone ever discuss with you as his carer what might be needed should he have to evacuate the building
00:18:13 can I take you back to your statement and let's look at page five no sorry page back to page four please I WS 6:08 page four and can we expand paragraph 26
00:18:44 in this paragraph mr. Daniel what you've said is that I believe there was a working fire alarm system in Greenville tower at the time of the fire there
00:18:56 tower at the time of the fire there always had been in the past and I had no reason to think that it would have been removed now again just to help you we should also look at paragraph 51 of the
00:19:07 should also look at paragraph 51 of the statement
00:19:15 which is I think on page eight please
00:19:29 thank you have you got paragraph 51 yes thank you it's just the
00:19:40 second sentence there because what you say is prior to the refurbishment if there was a fire in the block then you would hear a really loud bell ringing outside the front door it was loud
00:19:52 outside the front door it was loud enough to wake you if you were asleep it did not go off that night we'll come back to the events of the night a little later on so I'm just want to ask you some questions about the fire alarms
00:20:04 some questions about the fire alarms when you say that there was a really loud bell ringing outside the front door is is that the front door of the flat yeah in the communal hallways and you it
00:20:16 yeah in the communal hallways and you it would ring in your communal hallway where else would it ring and all of them and would it be also ringing on the ground floor I would expect so but I haven't heard it from the ground it's
00:20:29 haven't heard it from the ground it's the same alarm as if you're in the lift and you got stuck you had pressed the alarm and the bell would go off so if you held the button down it would continually go off so is the same same alarm it's
00:20:42 go off so is the same same alarm it's very loud alarm did you after the refurbishment did you see anything on your landing the communal hallway in
00:20:54 your landing the communal hallway in your floor that looked like a fire alarm a smoke detector so the same smoke detector they had always been there was
00:21:05 detector they had always been there was still there as far as I know can we look at an image then please and again I just warned that this is a photograph taken
00:21:17 warned that this is a photograph taken out after the fire but it's a photograph that we have seen recently it's be LA four zeros to five one three
00:21:31 you could rotate that please this is a photograph taken on floor six so it's not your floor but we can see in the
00:21:44 not your floor but we can see in the ceiling there what looks like a sort of white plastic object you see that yes is that what you're thinking of when you're you say that you you saw a smoke
00:21:55 you say that you you saw a smoke detector and is that what you're also thinking of when you and you're saying that there was a fire alarm in the communal hallways that's and taking you
00:22:14 communal hallways that's and taking you back to your own floor what was was there a detector like that on your floor there definitely was that with the Bell mm-hmm because it sounds though you
00:22:26 mm-hmm because it sounds though you heard the bell go off a few times while you were living in your plan yeah countless times yeah did you notice what the Bell looked like did you see no you
00:22:37 the Bell looked like did you see no you couldn't see the Bell you just hear it right so I'm not sure where it was located but I assumed that there was one
00:22:48 located but I assumed that there was one on each floor because you could hear it so loudly yeah and you'd experience that
00:22:59 so loudly yeah and you'd experience that Bell and that alarm going off before the refurbishment haven't you yes did anyone tell you during the course of the refurbishment or afterwards that it had been removed no
00:23:16 could we go to where the what alarms there whirring in your own flat did you have smoke alarms fitted in the flat oh
00:23:28 have smoke alarms fitted in the flat oh yeah we did during the refurbishment we had one put in the hallway and one in the kitchen and in 2017 were those working as far as I know very well did
00:23:42 working as far as I know very well did you ever experience then going off at all for example when you were cooking once my father set off the alarm in the kitchen
00:23:51 kitchen burning some food did you in addition to those alarms have a carbon monoxide alarm I'm not sure but can you remember
00:24:03 alarm I'm not sure but can you remember if anyone ever came to the flat and to give you a carbon monoxide alarm no the fire brigade came to the flat and fitted the two smoke alarms I'm not sure if one
00:24:14 the two smoke alarms I'm not sure if one was a carbon monoxide detector along
00:24:28 I just want to ask you now some questions about the the general layout and condition of the flat as it was in 2017
00:24:39 2017 could we I take you please it's page 6 of your statement and what I want to look at paragraph 14
00:25:00 and I don't need to read it all out and mr. Daniels but I just want to pick up a point that you say that they're in and this isn't part of your statement where
00:25:12 this isn't part of your statement where you're discussing the refurbishment but you say new front doors were mandatory in all of the flats and so the front door for your flat was replaced is that
00:25:23 door for your flat was replaced is that right yeah it was but what you do continue then to say is that the locking mechanism on my door kept breaking a few months before the fire one of the hinges
00:25:35 months before the fire one of the hinges came out I called the tenant management organization repair line and they sent a man out to fix it and he took the middle hinge out of the door and was and told
00:25:46 hinge out of the door and was and told you that you'd need a new door and a booking was made or he said he would make a booking for the door to be replaced but it never got changed and what you say at the end was the that
00:25:57 what you say at the end was the that meant that even though they were supposed to be self closing doors mine was not self closing at the time of the fire so right that was right now so you were aware before the fire that the
00:26:10 you were aware before the fire that the new door that had been fitted was was meant to be self closing or not at the time I knew since so when this repair
00:26:24 time I knew since so when this repair man came to fix the problem with a locking mechanism how what effect did that have on how you could use the door well to elaborate the door wouldn't
00:26:36 well to elaborate the door wouldn't close when the hinge broke so the middle hinge bent or the screws bent that were holding it in so the door wouldn't close at all so I had to phone them and the effect it had is I could close at all by
00:26:49 effect it had is I could close at all by him to endow him removing the middle hinge and you were there when he did it and saw him dirty yes before the hinge
00:27:01 and saw him dirty yes before the hinge broke
00:27:02 broke did the door have a self closing mechanism
00:27:16 no I mean the door wasn't closed because there were also problems with the lock so I mean it would close by itself but
00:27:27 so I mean it would close by itself but it wouldn't lock well not even Rocky wouldn't the locks wouldn't go into place right so you had to push it to mash it manually and after the hinge
00:27:40 mash it manually and after the hinge broke the repair person removed that central hinge yes so the door would swing but again the lock wouldn't engage
00:27:52 swing but again the lock wouldn't engage is that what you say that is picking up on the Chairman's last points and even after the repairman had come in to close
00:28:03 after the repairman had come in to close the door you would have to physically pull it shut would you to make sure that it had locked yes do you remember any draft problems with the door no I mean
00:28:17 draft problems with the door no I mean there was no wind in the communal hallway oh and my floor so no I mean you could smell your neighbor's cooking but that's about it and so we can understand
00:28:32 that's about it and so we can understand how what the door looked like this was a door that had it had a letterbox in it is that right yes sir did
00:28:45 we could look now paragraph 41 please
00:28:56 you've described that then this is again where you're discussing the changes that were bought in place during the refurbishment but the boiler system and you described as an enormous boiler
00:29:08 you described as an enormous boiler systems were installed in each flat and new pipes were fitted can i bring up your plan please and it's iws 608 page 16
00:29:26 just can you just using that just help us with where the new boiler was placed so the boiler would be about a foot
00:29:41 so the boiler would be about a foot inside the front door so before we reached the door that would allow you to get into the box room yes
00:30:04 and so you now had a boiler placed in your entrance hall and did that have any effect on how easy it was to come in and out of the front door not for me but for
00:30:19 out of the front door not for me but for my father it probably had an effect probably hindered his movement just help me again
00:30:27 me again imagine yourself standing outside your front door about to walk in we have boiler on the left side or the right side it was on the left
00:30:43 what you've also in protect you back to your statement page seven please
00:30:56 again expand paragraph 41 42
00:31:05 you say that the pipes were left exposed running through the flats and inside my flat an exposed hot water pipe ran from my father's room through my room and into the living room and and was that
00:31:18 into the living room and and was that flat still where they still exposed pipes running into your flat in June 2017 I don't know about running in but running through so through the bedrooms
00:31:29 running through so through the bedrooms and the living room and did they run along the tops of the walls or along the bottom no along the bottom and so the
00:31:44 bottom no along the bottom and so the these if they were running through your flat where were they coming from the pipes I'm guessing the neighbors the
00:31:55 pipes I'm guessing the neighbors the neighbors fat and obviously for the pipe to run through they would need to be a hole in the wall was there a tight seal around the holes where the pipes were
00:32:07 around the holes where the pipes were running through nope so can you describe what the holes were like please Kreutz holes drilled through the walls that were too large for the pipes and how big
00:32:19 were too large for the pipes and how big were the pipes let's say an inch or two yeah two were
00:32:30 let's say an inch or two yeah two were these like sort of can we imagine the sort of pipes that you have running to radiators those pipes exactly and did you notice whether there were holes or
00:32:44 you notice whether there were holes or if you like on the outside walls of your flat the walls that that opened into the communal hallway above the front door there were there were some holes made of
00:32:58 there were there were some holes made of I think they were filled we didn't have gas in my flat so
00:33:05 yeah I'm not sure I'm not sure see you can't remember there being any holes from the communal hallway no I can I think they were filled up with some
00:33:19 I think they were filled up with some kind of filler Thank You mr. chairman if I may I ask now for just a short break
00:33:31 I may I ask now for just a short break yes right well we have a break from time to time mr. Daniels are all sorts of different reasons we can have one now only if you want ten minutes ten minutes maximum
00:33:42 maximum so we'll stop until well let's say quarter past eleven that's convenient point please don't talk to anyone about their evidence whether off the road and we'll resume what past eleven if you'd
00:33:55 we'll resume what past eleven if you'd like to get the other shoe look after you
00:34:13 right 11:15 then please
00:51:35 right could you ask mr. Daniels if he's ready to come back these
00:52:10 all right mr. Daniel yes to keep going yeah alright thank you very much yes mr. Allen
00:52:17 mr. Daniels before we had the short break we were I was asking questions about the condition of your flat in 2017 and I'd like to just ask you a few more
00:52:29 and I'd like to just ask you a few more questions on that topic please can I take you now to paragraph 43 in your statement which is on page 7 in that
00:52:44 statement which is on page 7 in that statement you're talking about the the windows that were fitted as part of the refurbishment and it's right isn't it that you in your flat you had all the windows replaced we did and what you say
00:52:58 windows replaced we did and what you say is that they did not appear to be fitted very well there was always a draft coming through my bedroom window even when it was closed and locked as far as
00:53:10 when it was closed and locked as far as I remember the old windows did not lessen her draft the windows in my flat were all locked because my father had a tendency to throw things out of the window I therefore left all the windows locked
00:53:21 locked apart from my window and the kitchen window which was sometimes open yes true just so that we can kind of orientate ourselves let's look at your plan quickly page 16
00:53:45 we've got two bedrooms marked on their bedroom 1 and bedroom 2 which one was your bedroom bedroom 2 and was your bedroom window the only window in the
00:53:57 bedroom window the only window in the flat where you would feel a draft as far as I remember and in relation to your
00:54:08 as I remember and in relation to your bedroom window where was the draft coming in at the bottom of the frame its own between the wall and the frame underneath the window so underneath the
00:54:19 underneath the window so underneath the window sill oh yeah and can you say how strong that draft was depending on the conditions is
00:54:33 it was enough to be noticeable even in a mild wind you've spoken of of the
00:54:47 mild wind you've spoken of of the communal hallway did you know in June 2017 if there was a ventilation system in the communal hallway there were always vents in the communal hallway I
00:54:59 always vents in the communal hallway I didn't know the purpose of them ever I assumed they were getting smoke out and having fresh air and they came in all
00:55:12 having fresh air and they came in all the areas and when you were in the communal areas other than just using it as a route to your flat do you ever spend time standing outside the communal areas for example having a cigarette or
00:55:23 areas for example having a cigarette or something like that yes I said of the fire alarm well the communal fire alarm let's come back to that in a moment then let's finish with the system when you were out
00:55:35 finish with the system when you were out there on the Camino did you ever feel that you movement are there at all no did you ever hear the sound of a fan no now you just mentioned that when you
00:55:47 now you just mentioned that when you were out in the communal hallway having a cigarette you you would set off the fire alarm yeah one of my friends not me
00:56:00 was that after the refurbishment nope previously so after the refurbishment and around June 2017 were you ever aware
00:56:12 and around June 2017 were you ever aware of that alarm that we looked at being set off on your floor so after the refurbishment yes no even by cigarette smoke no I wish I'd
00:56:27 no even by cigarette smoke no I wish I'd have tested it now but no and what about the you've told us you there - smoke alarms in your flat one in the hallway one in the kitchen how sensitive are
00:56:41 one in the kitchen how sensitive are those as I said that the kitchen one went off once and there was quite a lot of smoke in the kitchen at that time so
00:56:52 of smoke in the kitchen at that time so I couldn't really judge how sensitive they were what I'd like to do now mr. Daniel is to turn to the events of the
00:57:05 Daniel is to turn to the events of the night themselves but if we start off we're let's stick with that plan that we were just looking at it's helpful if we just start off by understanding the layout of your flat mm-hmm so we know
00:57:17 layout of your flat mm-hmm so we know that flat 135 is in the northwest corner of the tower and what we can see there is you had a sitting room and two bedrooms and is it right that the city
00:57:28 bedrooms and is it right that the city at least two of the better sitting room windows and the bedroom windows would have faced north yes and so that would mean that from those windows you could
00:57:39 mean that from those windows you could look out onto Kensington Aldridge Academy the school yeah oh you could
00:57:45 and we've got again just so that we can see doors coming off but open into the sitting room and the two bedrooms and and there's a hallway there as they're running along to the entrance is that
00:57:56 running along to the entrance is that right yup correct
00:58:01 let's go back then to the statement on page eight
00:58:17 if we pick it up from if we could just expand paragraphs 47 to 50 please
00:58:29 you explained that on that night it was soon after midnight you were lying in bed and you were browsing the Internet and you've put if you look at paragraph
00:58:40 and you've put if you look at paragraph 48 I think I first became aware and fired approximately 12:45 we look at what what you noticed at that time but
00:58:51 what what you noticed at that time but can I start off by asking you this question what do you base your time of 12:45 on the subsequent events after that so me leaving the tower block is it
00:59:05 that so me leaving the tower block is it a case of working back in your mind I work back from the time I left the block and at that time what you say is that
00:59:17 and at that time what you say is that you began to smell smoke yes was your bedroom window open at the time I doubt it oh it could well have
00:59:30 time I doubt it oh it could well have been yes on a night like that I can't remember but probably was and if we look at paragraph 48 what you describe the smoke as is it smells electrical I
00:59:43 smoke as is it smells electrical I thought maybe it was an issue with a plug socket or that I dropped a lit cigarette on my bed it wasn't a smell I was used to it was similar to smell when you drop a cigarette and it starts to burn on a mattress but not quite the
00:59:55 burn on a mattress but not quite the same and you explained that you checked over the room couldn't find the source of the smell did you have any sense of where it might be coming from into your
01:00:06 where it might be coming from into your bedroom I I thought it was in my property so I checked around my property that living room I thought my father might have left the oven on or burned something or a socket had been
01:00:18 something or a socket had been overloaded so I had on once I couldn't locate it in my house I had no idea where it's coming from so again breaking that down what you did
01:00:32 so again breaking that down what you did at that time then was not only to check in to you in your bedroom but around the property yeah so you did you check which other rooms in the flat did you cat the living room the kitchen hallway
01:00:45 cat the living room the kitchen hallway and that didn't help you at all we're trying to work out where the smell was coming from no the smell was only in my room as far as I can at that time so
01:00:59 room as far as I can at that time so what you were left with was a smell that you were able to say was in your room but you couldn't tell what was causing it or where it was coming from yeah
01:01:10 it or where it was coming from yeah exactly if we look at 49 you say that after about 20 minutes I was still occasionally getting whiffs of the smell
01:01:22 occasionally getting whiffs of the smell had the had the smell lessened by then or was it getting stronger
01:01:28 it was much the same it was just a cage occasional occasionally it would be would smell it and then disappear again
01:01:41 would smell it and then disappear again was it just a and it was just a smell rather than any sort of awareness of smoke being in the bedroom yeah it was just a vague smell plastic yeah
01:01:58 but what you tell us in that same paragraph is that what you then decided to do was going check the kitchen to see if the cook had been left on yep and as
01:02:13 if the cook had been left on yep and as you made your way from your bedroom to your kitchen did you pick up the smell in the hallway or anywhere else as you or was it still very much in still in your bedroom it was mainly in my bedroom
01:02:25 your bedroom it was mainly in my bedroom I can't remember it being anywhere else
01:02:37 when you got to the kitchen could you smell any smoke in the kitchen itself not that I remember now and the smell
01:02:51 not that I remember now and the smell haven't changed at all in the 20 minutes that a passed since you first noticed it No if we look at paragraph 50 what you say there and I'll try and summarize it
01:03:04 say there and I'll try and summarize it is that you looked out of the kitchen window and saw flickering on the panel's of the new school in front of the block no that's incorrect it should be the living room window I see so was this
01:03:16 living room window I see so was this something that you did the first time you'd notice smoke or notice smell no I didn't think it was outside the block I thought I mean I did think it was
01:03:27 thought I mean I did think it was outside the blob I didn't in the beginning I thought it was in the flat so I didn't look out the windows at that stage after 20 minutes I started looking
01:03:40 stage after 20 minutes I started looking out the windows so if we just get the sequence clear yeah you're in your bedroom browsing the internet mm-hmm you pick up on this smell you checked your
01:03:53 pick up on this smell you checked your bedroom yeah you that didn't help you to identify where the smells coming from and then you tried she looked in the living room to see whether it was elsewhere in the flat and then again you
01:04:05 elsewhere in the flat and then again you couldn't tell where the smell was coming from yep that's correct and then did you go back to your bedroom and then was it after that that you thought because you were still getting
01:04:16 thought because you were still getting occasional widths of a smell that you needed to look around again yes exactly but I I felt very safe because the alarm wasn't going off so I thought always
01:04:28 wasn't going off so I thought always well and if we look at just paragraph 50 and you're right this because you want you to say it should read is that I
01:04:40 you to say it should read is that I looked out of the living room window yeah that's right and you now have a memory of looking out and seeing of the living room window seeing flickering on the panels of the school yeah but at
01:04:53 the panels of the school yeah but at that time if is it also right that your thought was that it if it was a fire it was outside the block yes I thought it was in front of the support center or
01:05:04 was in front of the support center or under the walkway where there were rubbish bins which sometimes kids would set them on fire or burn mopeds something like that and so if we look at
01:05:20 something like that and so if we look at the last sentence of the paragraph fifty you say I returned to the computer and does that mean that what you did was go back to your bedroom I ignored it yeah
01:05:34 we on the same page please but just let's look at paragraph 51
01:05:47 what you're saying there is you start off the paragraph with after another ten minutes
01:05:51 minutes the smell became stronger again just to try and break that down a little bit or you is it your recollection that there
01:06:04 you is it your recollection that there was sort of ten minutes where nothing happened and then you began to notice that the smell was getting stronger yeah that's how I remember it
01:06:16 and how quickly did the smell become stronger
01:06:26 it's very hard to estimate how quickly the smell I mean I think 10 minutes is my kind of recollection look was it that
01:06:40 my kind of recollection look was it that you know there you were in your bedroom it wasn't all of a sudden a very strong smell did he slow down yeah and although the smell was getting stronger was it
01:06:52 the smell was getting stronger was it still the same smell yes still as you describe it and sort of smell that you get if you dropped a lit cigarette on a mattress yeah I would say burning foam
01:07:03 mattress yeah I would say burning foam or plastic
01:07:13 and if we go just to look at the next page please let's look at the top of that page it's a page nine
01:07:26 and what happened then I think that you left your bedroom and went into the sitting room again and was that that then you noticed emergency vehicles of flashing lights yup correct and again
01:07:40 flashing lights yup correct and again just so that we can be clear I think you've already told it that the sitting-room windows would all have been locked
01:07:46 locked wouldn't it they were locked yes so is in the reflection on the Academy that I could see the flashing lights on the panels and at that time what in that
01:08:05 panels and at that time what in that period of time a number of things have happened haven't they the smells got stronger in your flat [Music]
01:08:13 [Music] your first time that you look out the window you see flickering and you're thinking it's a fire outside the tower block and now you see emergency vehicles at that time what were you thinking what
01:08:26 at that time what were you thinking what was your thinking about what was going on I thought either the rubbish bins under the walkway had been set alight or that moped had been burnt by kids on the
01:08:39 that moped had been burnt by kids on the green in front of the Sports Centre okay could we look please at paragraph 52
01:08:50 and this is I think doing the best that you can with time mr. Danner's what you've said is this is about one o'clock one 10:00 a.m. and is that again working backwards in your mind you when you left
01:09:03 backwards in your mind you when you left the tower you said I thought I'd go down and see what's going on so I got my keys in my phone and opened our front door I could smell a faint smell of smoke in
01:09:14 could smell a faint smell of smoke in the communal corridor I'll come back to that in a moment but aside from your
01:09:25 that in a moment but aside from your bedroom was there at this time where you will smell anywhere else in the flat no and as you move to your
01:09:39 the flat no and as you move to your front door to access the communal what you've called the communal corridor did you have any awareness of smoke coming through the door at all the front door yes No
01:09:51 yes No so again just so that we can be clear there was nothing in your hallway that gave you any concern the faint smell of smoke gave me concerned
01:10:03 smoke gave me concerned but did you first notice that when you open the front door I'm not sure when I noticed that it was yeah I'm not sure
01:10:14 noticed that it was yeah I'm not sure the exact exact time but is it clear in your mind that when you stepped out into the corridor you could you did notice that faint smell of smoke yes I changed
01:10:28 that faint smell of smoke yes I changed I changed the way of thinking so I didn't go down to see what was going on because I thought it was in the block then could you see any smoke at all no
01:10:41 then could you see any smoke at all no and you've already told us you've described the smell that was in the bedroom but can you describe the smell that was in the communal corridor that
01:10:52 that was in the communal corridor that the same smell
01:10:57 we know that there are lights in that landing area with the lights on yeah they were working and other than the
01:11:10 they were working and other than the faint smell of smoke did you have any idea of where that smoke might be coming from no I had no idea where it was coming from I assumed it was in the block and then I was puzzled as to why
01:11:23 block and then I was puzzled as to why the alarm wasn't ringing and by the alarm are you referring to that detected visual ceiling all along
01:11:41 could we expand just let's look at paragraphs keep far off such as you would just expand paragraph 54 please
01:11:50 I'm sorry we have paragraphs 52 to 54
01:12:02 just picking up please mr. dams on the last sentence where you say of power 52 where you say I walked around a bit could not see anything so whereabouts
01:12:14 could not see anything so whereabouts did you walk in the communal hallway man the stairs so did you taking the communal hallway
01:12:26 so did you taking the communal hallway first did you walk for example past the lifts yes and did at that time was there anybody else in the communal hallway no and you say you've just mentioned you went onto the stairs did that mean you
01:12:39 went onto the stairs did that mean you actually opened the door to the stairs and go out there there are others and so just again breaking it down when you you had to open the door to step into the
01:12:50 had to open the door to step into the stairwell do you remember doing that yeah and what was what was it like in the stairwell at that time it's completely normal so was there a smell in the stairwell no
01:13:05 and then again you tell us that you closed the door and you went back to the flat and closed the door and if we look at the 53 I returned to
01:13:16 and if we look at the 53 I returned to the front room and looked out of the window again the flames in the reflection on the panel's of the school were bigger and I realized that the fire must be growing and so you're looking out here from your living room is that
01:13:27 out here from your living room is that right yep and in 54 what you then go on to tell us is that you now went to try
01:13:39 to tell us is that you now went to try and explain to your father what was going on yes and when you say he was reading so he was awake when you came into his bedroom was he yeah he was and
01:13:53 into his bedroom was he yeah he was and you say that you told him there was a fire he was confused he did not believe that there was a fire do you think your father was able to understand that there was a fire yes and so what was it that
01:14:07 was a fire yes and so what was it that was making him confused I just don't think he believed me he was generally
01:14:19 think he believed me he was generally confused so at that time in the evening he probably it was tired and there's
01:14:30 he probably it was tired and there's it's just hard to communicate with him on most issues what you do say you expel
01:14:41 on most issues what you do say you expel or see he had a his bedroom window had to be locked but you think he was a when you took him to the when he was able to see some of the fire at some stowed she
01:14:53 see some of the fire at some stowed she was yeah I just thought if I draw your attention just in the last part of paragraph 54 there huh you say you'd locked his bedroom daughter of Renton from throwing things out and because of
01:15:04 from throwing things out and because of his limited mobility struggled to see where I was looking as he could not look down easily however I think he was able to see someone fire so do you remember just take time to take your father to the window show
01:15:16 to take your father to the window show him what was going yes I remember that
01:15:26 now what what you'd also say that you told your father and you just say that in that paragraph that you told him that you might need to leave the building yeah what was it that made you think
01:15:41 yeah what was it that made you think that you might need to do that that there was a fire in the block so I wasn't paying much respect to the
01:15:54 wasn't paying much respect to the stay-put advice given and you told us earlier that that was something that had been drummed into you and you were aware of yes what was it that was making you
01:16:07 of yes what was it that was making you decide not to pay much respect to the stay-put policy probably my personality but also the fact that the alarm hadn't gone off and there was clearly smoke in
01:16:20 gone off and there was clearly smoke in the block you'd spoken earlier about your concerns over your father given his
01:16:31 your concerns over your father given his health living on the 16th floor yes had you before made any kind of assessment of the risks there were for your father living on that floor I I did it to
01:16:42 living on that floor I I did it to myself constantly but I'm not sure if I said anything to social services or the council about it but was that assessment
01:16:57 council about it but was that assessment part of your thinking about the need to leave the building
01:17:04 I don't remember but in all likelihood
01:17:12 we now look at paragraph 55 please
01:17:23 and we're now looking mr. Daniells at the second time that you go back to your front door and what you say is that I
01:17:36 front door and what you say is that I then open the front door of our flat again there was much more smoke in the communal hallway it was thicker and darker and I think in I didn't draw it to attention but in the preceding
01:17:47 to attention but in the preceding paragraph you'd said that you spent about five minutes trying to show your father the fire through his bedroom window
01:17:54 window so does that help you at all just us how much time had passed between the first time that you'd looked out and gone out into the communal hallway and this second occasion I think it did at the
01:18:08 second occasion I think it did at the time of writing this statement but now it's all quite bad at the timings at the moment so I couldn't I couldn't really
01:18:19 moment so I couldn't I couldn't really judge it's fair enough but was it a matter of minutes do you think taking to the other side you'd have have her conversation with your father and then
01:18:32 conversation with your father and then go back to the front door yeah it was minutes
01:18:34 minutes it was maximum five minutes now what you the first thing you noticed was there was much more smoke in the communal hallway but before you opened your front
01:18:46 hallway but before you opened your front door was there any smoke that had come into your flat no not that apart from in my room the smell of it I hadn't I haven't seen any smoke in my flat at
01:18:58 haven't seen any smoke in my flat at that time what you were aware of in the flat was the smell but nothing else not invisible
01:19:08 you've described the smoke there as thicker and darker can you remember what it smelt like I had the same smell plastic and when you stepped out into
01:19:22 plastic and when you stepped out into the when you move open the front door was it immediately there or was it and whereabouts was it in the communal hallway when I was hit everywhere and
01:19:33 hallway when I was hit everywhere and when you say everywhere was that floor-to-ceiling no most mostly the ceiling level say to waste my waste and
01:19:47 ceiling level say to waste my waste and could you so you could see some you see through some of the smoke could you know it was a lot thicker than it had been previously but it wasn't that dense was
01:20:04 previously but it wasn't that dense was there anyone or were you aware of anyone else in the communal hallway at that time no if we pick it up in the next sentence you say I walk to the stairs and I could faintly hear shouting and
01:20:16 and I could faintly hear shouting and panicking did you walk did you actually go into the stairwell again yes and so again would you've had to open the door step into the stairwell I did on that
01:20:30 step into the stairwell I did on that night did you have any difficulty with that stairwell door the stairwell yes yes I did but with the door itself no no and do you remember whether it was a
01:20:41 and do you remember whether it was a door that once you've stepped into the stairwell would claw close automatically after you my one certainly did on my floor so you tell us that you went into
01:20:52 floor so you tell us that you went into the stairwell what were the conditions like in the stairwell when you went there clue um did when you stepped into the stairwell
01:21:03 did when you stepped into the stairwell did you allow the stairwell door to close behind you yes and did any of the smoke that you had noticed on the communal hallway was any of that coming into the stairwell not as far as I'm
01:21:14 into the stairwell not as far as I'm aware no
01:21:17 I just want to ask you a question about the last sentence in this paragraph because you say I think that one of the lifts was out of order that night but I
01:21:29 lifts was out of order that night but I saw someone going down in the other lift can you just help us with this what did you actually see I saw on the the panels which show which floor the lift was on I
01:21:42 which show which floor the lift was on I saw it go to a floor and then descend so I assumed somebody was in the left and using it so when you say you saw it go
01:21:53 using it so when you say you saw it go to a floor then did you see the lift travel up to a floor yes and I know it's difficult but you out say what the floor that was no obviously a floor higher
01:22:06 that was no obviously a floor higher than your own and then nope necessarily I see I thought that so so what you'd seen was the lift moving upwards and
01:22:17 seen was the lift moving upwards and then moving down again yeah with that from the indicator yes above the lift doors indicator
01:22:30 now when you were in the stairwell what you say is that you could faintly hear shouting and panicking can you help us at all with where that shouting and
01:22:41 at all with where that shouting and panicking was coming from I think it was
01:22:50 but I couldn't be sure right now do you have a sense of it coming from above you or below Ave vaguely of it I vaguely remember it coming from above but I can't be sure about that and by then
01:23:06 can't be sure about that and by then what you've done was you've come out of your front door into the communal hallway you've noticed what was going on with the lifts and you've gone to the stairwell did you have any sense of
01:23:18 stairwell did you have any sense of where this thick dark smoke was coming from no idea
01:23:27 we look at paragraph 56 please oh sorry I mean at this type I did probably think it was inside the block saying as the
01:23:38 it was inside the block saying as the smoke was inside the block but no idea in the block where it was coming from so it wasn't the case I mean did you see anything coming out of the lifts no all
01:23:50 anything coming out of the lifts no all through any of the preventive grills or anything no let's go back a same page and pat wave we've got it up on the screen it's paragraph 56 because what
01:24:02 screen it's paragraph 56 because what you tell us you then did was to go back to the flat and back to the front room and you saw that the fire had come round
01:24:14 and you saw that the fire had come round the corner so there was now fire on our side of the block to the right on the east side but much lower down the building at about the fourth to sixth floor I think that should be the north
01:24:25 floor I think that should be the north side see that come round to the north side so again well let's do it using your plan let's go to page 16
01:24:49 so what you've done is gone back to the flat
01:24:53 flat and back to the sitting room haven't you yep so you're looking can you remember which which windows you were looking out of no but the one of the living room
01:25:07 of no but the one of the living room windows and you're looking north I'm looking at the Academy end zone or Thea and what you at that time had a sense of was that there was fire on your side of
01:25:20 was that there was fire on your side of the block but lower down I could see the fire had come around the corner onto my side to the north side and did that in
01:25:32 side to the north side and did that in order to see that did you have to open up the window and lean out yes so can you tell us just just take us through what you had to do to notice the fire turn the key open the window put my head
01:25:47 turn the key open the window put my head out
01:25:51 and
01:25:57 when you look down and you look down and you saw a fire what color flames were you see orange red and we seeing any smoke at all no it was dark
01:26:11 seeing any smoke at all no it was dark so it's hard to see smoke in the night
01:26:20 and was that the first time that you had an indication that there was fire on the outside the block I didn't know is on the outside I assumed it was coming out of a property window around the fifth
01:26:35 of a property window around the fifth floor I didn't know is on the outside of the block apart from protruding through the window ceiling would would it would it be fair to describe it this way that
01:26:46 it be fair to describe it this way that when you look down what you saw was what you thought you saw the flames coming out of a property yeah and wrapping around the corner onto my side so I couldn't see where the
01:26:58 my side so I couldn't see where the flames were coming from but I could see they clearly were coming around the corner let's go to the next page power page ten please
01:27:15 and could we expand paragraph 57
01:27:26 now this point mr. downs what you're telling us is that you you went back to speak to your father but and you told him you made a decision in fact that you
01:27:38 him you made a decision in fact that you had to leave didn't you yeah I thought we had to leave and and what you've mentioned in this paragraph is that we'd always been told to stay in our flat but
01:27:49 always been told to stay in our flat but the amount of smoke was scaring me and I was concerned that smoke alarms are not going off when when you're talking about the amount of smoke here it is that the smoke in the communal hallway that you're referring dis and again so we can
01:28:03 you're referring dis and again so we can take it in stages at that time was there any smoke in your flat at all no
01:28:13 take you to the next paragraph on this same page please rough 58 and this is now the third time isn't it that you go
01:28:26 now the third time isn't it that you go back to your front door and out into that hallway yep and so you say you went back into the communal hallway and opened the door to the stairwell I saw an East African woman from all the
01:28:38 an East African woman from all the higher floors running down the stairs screaming this did not make sense to me I do not understand why she was so scared when she was coming from higher up the building and I went back inside
01:28:50 up the building and I went back inside and slammed the door shut behind me to stop the thick black smoke entering the flat so again on this third time you would have had to cross the hallway and
01:29:04 would have had to cross the hallway and make your way to the stairs is that right yep and you described when on the second time you went out that there was thick dark smoke what were the conditions like at that time though
01:29:15 conditions like at that time though remains about the same as they were as I left the fat so it was only a matter of seconds I was in the stairs so so when
01:29:26 seconds I was in the stairs so so when you step out of your front door it's still the similar conditions in that there's still thick dark smoke was it any worse not that thick not as because it as it was later on I mean it was
01:29:39 it as it was later on I mean it was breathable so at this time had the smoke that you noticed on the communal hallway had that had any effect on you at all
01:29:53 not that I noticed so because this would have been the second time that you had ventured into the communal hallway wouldn't it had it caused you to cough or splatter at all
01:30:06 caused you to cough or splatter at all no had it had any effect on your eyes
01:30:12 not as far as I'm aware and when you say you open the door to the stairwell again did you step out into the stairwell yes and what were the
01:30:23 into the stairwell yes and what were the conditions like in the stairwell on this occasion they were clear so no smoke or anything at all in the stairwell nothing
01:30:35 anything at all in the stairwell nothing of note not any smell of any kind no because I'm coming from a smokey environment into so it was like fresh fresh air was the East African woman
01:30:50 fresh air was the East African woman from one of the higher floors was that the only person that you saw at the time in the stairwell at that time yeah could you hear any shouting at all it was
01:31:02 you hear any shouting at all it was eerily quiet apart from her and was she someone that you recognized I've seen
01:31:13 someone that you recognized I've seen her before yeah and you say that she was from a little higher floors did you know which floor she lived on No
01:31:27 let's now look at the paragraphs 59 and 60 of that statement same page page 10 please
01:31:41 if I may stand as I'll read some of this out
01:31:45 out but you tell us that you went back to your father told him he had to put his shoes on as we needed to leave he wore a tracksuit in bed so he did not need to put on clothes he was asking why we had
01:31:56 put on clothes he was asking why we had to leave I explained that the fire was on our side of the block he's very stubborn and was not moving quickly he was also very confused he asked me to show him the fire we got as close to the
01:32:08 show him the fire we got as close to the window as possible and then from below us to the right a wave of fire shot past the window so first question is how long
01:32:21 the window so first question is how long do you think it took two for you to try to explain to your father what was going on it seemed like an eternity but it was probably a matter of minutes to three
01:32:34 probably a matter of minutes to three minutes and when you he wanted to show him the fire was that looking out through his bedroom window through his window yeah and what you describe is a
01:32:46 window yeah and what you describe is a wave of fire shot past the window yeah can you give us a little more detail about what you actually saw at that time yeah so he was on his side of the bed which is closest to the next neighboring
01:32:58 which is closest to the next neighboring flat I was on the other side of his bedroom and his bed was right in front of the window so we were both on the sides of the window on either side and
01:33:10 sides of the window on either side and we had our noses pressed up against the glass as I was trying to show him where the fire was on our side which is around the fifth floor he was never gonna
01:33:21 the fifth floor he was never gonna really be able to see it because of his mobility and as we were doing that from the right wall of father's came across
01:33:33 the right wall of father's came across our window and how high up was that wall of fire they it covered the window in my recollection so it was at your level
01:33:44 recollection so it was at your level your resort of Loddon at my level and what happened to that wall of fire what happened next I don't know
01:33:56 I don't know there it was it was there and did it stay there yeah for a while I don't I
01:34:13 stay there yeah for a while I don't I don't remember it not being there and and do you remember where it was in relation to the window the bedroom window your father's room well I was on
01:34:25 window your father's room well I was on the left hand side of his of the window he was on the right hand side and it it covered the whole window and did you
01:34:37 covered the whole window and did you notice any debris falling at this time no what you say in paragraph 60s I was
01:34:48 no what you say in paragraph 60s I was now very scared in between telling him to get ready I went to open the front door to see how much smoke was outside on the last time I did this it caused the smoke alarm the flap to go off there
01:35:01 the smoke alarm the flap to go off there was so much smoke now that I knew we had to leave immediately now where you're referring there to the last time you did this he are you referring to this occasion that you're discussing in this paragraph or the previous occasion when you saw the East
01:35:14 previous occasion when you saw the East African woman in the stairwell I'm talking about this occasion now so you opened the front door the smoke came in
01:35:25 opened the front door the smoke came in and you had to smoke alarms in the flat which one went off the one in the hallway and again before you open the front door did you notice any smoke
01:35:36 front door did you notice any smoke coming into the flat no so at that time you didn't have it there was there was no smoke smoke at all in the flat was there I can't say for certain because I
01:35:49 there I can't say for certain because I kept going out into the communal hallway where there was smoke so maybe I was accustomed to the smell at that stage so they could have been
01:36:00 they could have been but if we deal with it in this way what you've described is obvious smoke in the communal hallway yep and was there anything similar like that
01:36:12 and was there anything similar like that in your father's bedroom no did you notice anything of that smoke of that consistency in the hallway when you were walking out to the front door no and
01:36:24 walking out to the front door no and you've described that this wall of fire coming past your father's bedroom there and being there did you notice at that time any smoke
01:36:35 did you notice at that time any smoke coming in through his bedroom window no
01:36:40 so again just to pick up on the last answer was that no that you don't remember smoke coming into the bedroom when you saw that wall of fire or no there wasn't any no I don't remember
01:37:04 we just on the same page just expand the bottom half from paragraph 61 please
01:37:14 sorry could I have 61 down to the remaining paragraphs on the page
01:37:27 mr. Daniells I'm just going to sort of summarize the paragraphs if I may but what had then happened was that you shouted to you your father but you say
01:37:38 shouted to you your father but you say he was disorientated and frozen in a daze and you tried to grab him and move him but as you explained he was I think
01:37:49 him but as you explained he was I think having been a bodybuilder in his time he was still a very strong man and if you draw one stubborn and and yeah disorientated and you also had an injury
01:38:01 disorientated and you also had an injury to your hand didn't you yeah so distilling it down you you were just not strong enough to move your father and I
01:38:12 strong enough to move your father and I was I was scared of pulling him anyway in case he fell over yeah what you then did was that you you rat moved to leave the flat and as you say you could what
01:38:26 the flat and as you say you could what you saw behind your father was the wall of fire through the window yeah at that time when you saw that wall of fire was was anything coming in through the
01:38:37 was anything coming in through the window there was a split second I couldn't notice anything you shouted at your father to come with you made your way to the front door and opened it
01:38:48 way to the front door and opened it again yeah and then you say thick black smoke came pouring in and you had to close the door again is that right yes
01:39:00 close the door again is that right yes at that time looking at the smoke that was coming into your flat at that point was it what was it like compared to what you'd seen earlier it was drastically
01:39:11 you'd seen earlier it was drastically different
01:39:11 different I was so deadly what is it that makes you say it was deadly the density of it the smell of it the color of it and did
01:39:22 the smell of it the color of it and did he just come pouring into the flat yeah
01:39:27 so we go to the next page please and look from the top down to paragraph 65 please
01:39:45 so again taking in stages what had happen now was that you'd open the door once the smoke had come in you closed it shouted to your father come on come on
01:39:57 shouted to your father come on come on and get out and he wasn't responding to you at all do you think he had any awareness of what was going on at that time I'm not sure
01:40:14 and then you say that you opened the door again and more smoke came in and you continued I was breathing it in and I could feel myself starting to lose consciousness so can you give us a
01:40:26 consciousness so can you give us a little bit more information about that what effect was that smoke having on you it made me go lightheaded and my knees buckled I fell on to where the boiler is
01:40:40 buckled I fell on to where the boiler is now so just interesting so at the front door to the left and you've already told us you'd ventured out into the communal Hall way a number of times was that the
01:40:51 Hall way a number of times was that the first time that that's I've had any effect on you yeah and apart from making you feel light-headed did it cause you to cough or splutter not as far as I can
01:41:05 to cough or splutter not as far as I can remember
01:41:07 remember did it have anything any effect on your eyes at all I don't know did you remember your eyes watering or no not a very tasty phone smoke in any way not
01:41:19 very tasty phone smoke in any way not then say this was a very short period of time the seconds and so was it the case
01:41:30 time the seconds and so was it the case that you opened the door smoke came in you closed it then you felt the impact on you at that time yeah but what you do say is that my hood and went out of the
01:41:45 say is that my hood and went out of the door into the corridor I left the door open in case my father came behind me when you went out that time did you remember where your father was he was behind me in his doorway so he'd come to
01:41:58 behind me in his doorway so he'd come to the edge of the doorway where it met the hallway is that right yes a little behind that so still in his room but approaching his door we don't need to
01:42:15 approaching his door we don't need to read it half of what you explained in paragraph 64 is the issue with the door that and you say that at the time our front door not close by itself but if we pick it up
01:42:28 not close by itself but if we pick it up at 65 smoke was so sick that I could not see anything so I had to feel my way around as part of the refurbishment they'd put a box in the communal area
01:42:39 they'd put a box in the communal area which housed pipes this meant that the layout was not as I remembered it so it was difficult to find my way there was thick black smoke everywhere so you're now venturing out into the communal
01:42:51 now venturing out into the communal hallway yeah breaking that down could you see anything at all I could see the ground
01:43:02 anything at all I could see the ground you earlier when you were answering questions to me you said that the first time you came across the smoke it was from ceiling to waist high yeah your waist height and not very dense what was
01:43:16 waist height and not very dense what was it like now you couldn't see anything at head height and I would say you could only see up to the first foot on the ground well you still aware of the
01:43:29 ground well you still aware of the lights being on in the landing yes
01:43:33 because it would have been pitch black otherwise
01:43:45 and you described earlier what a brief exposure to that smoke had done to you when you stepped out now into the communal hallway did it have any effect on you now
01:43:58 on you now no because I was holding my breath
01:44:10 where did you have any awareness where your father was this time items exactly where I left him is why I assumed but I have no idea if we expand now please
01:44:29 have no idea if we expand now please from sixty six down to 69 on the same page
01:44:48 what you say picking it up with 66 mr. Daniels's I was aware that if I was struggling so much to breathe as a young relatively fit person my father would lose consciousness in seconds in smoke
01:45:00 lose consciousness in seconds in smoke now you said that you were holding your breath that you mentioned there you were struggling so much to breathe can you tell us a little more about what was going on for you at that time as I was
01:45:13 going on for you at that time as I was going through the communal hallway yes please as far as I remember I covered my head with my hood held my breath before I made the dash out at the front door
01:45:24 I made the dash out at the front door and felt felt my way along the wall where the box was and I knew at the end of the box was fired follows the stair
01:45:37 of the box was fired follows the stair door and I once I got there I just kicked it open and got into the fresh air
01:45:47 [Music]
01:45:52 if we look at 67 what you say is that at some stage I saw my neighbor we were both feeling panicked we crouched down on the ground and spoke to each other he
01:46:03 on the ground and spoke to each other he said his mother was not in the building I explained my father was still inside no was did you encounter your neighbor in the stairwell or in the communal hallway I think it was in the stairwell I can't be sure
01:46:15 I can't be sure so doing the best we can you came out of your flat holding your breath and with your hood up mm-hmm and just got across that hallway as quickly as you could no kicking the stairwell door open mm-hmm
01:46:28 kicking the stairwell door open mm-hmm yeah and when you got into the stairwell what were the conditions like then they were clear so had they got any worse compared to what the stairwell have been like on previous occasions when you'd been in
01:46:39 previous occasions when you'd been in there on that night but once you come out of that smoke you you can't tell if the conditions have worsened or not
01:46:52 the conditions have worsened or not because you've just come through that thick smoke so to me it felt like a breath of fresh air and it was a bit of pressure and with the lights still on there well yeah the neighbor that you
01:47:06 there well yeah the neighbor that you described do you know who that neighbor was yes so I think his name is Hamid so is that Hamid Wahby I think so didn't flat 136 mister while he's healthy told
01:47:22 flat 136 mister while he's healthy told us that he's here today so you met as doing the best you can you came across mr. wobbly in the stairwell yep if we
01:47:35 mr. wobbly in the stairwell yep if we look then what you then say is that you
01:47:42 major way you ran down the stairs to try to find help and got up at 69 when I reached what I was later told was
01:47:53 when I reached what I was later told was the 11th floor I saw a fireman he was alone and he did not have any breathing equipment he was covered in sweat explained that my father was still in our flat but he had dimension that mean I've been unable to get him out I told
01:48:06 I've been unable to get him out I told him that we lived in flat 135 on the 16th floor and I asked him to help me he said it was too dangerous to do anything himself but he used his radio to call for a team to come yes no when you came
01:48:24 for a team to come yes no when you came across the fireman on what you later learned was the 11th floor was he can you remember what he was doing there he
01:48:37 you remember what he was doing there he was just he was just standing there he seemed like he he seemed out of breath and like he had been through quite a lot
01:48:50 and like he had been through quite a lot he had a panicked expression on his face
01:48:59 if we go to the next page please page 12 can I just interrupt you person we've been running for another hour since you love a break how do you feel you happy
01:49:11 love a break how do you feel you happy to find you sure thank you thank you mr. champ what you say if we can we expand 71 to 74 please also it's 70 to 74
01:49:30 71 to 74 please also it's 70 to 74 forgive me
01:49:38 and you explained in these paragraphs Daniels that spent five minutes with this first fireman that you met and then a team of four firemen arrived and went
01:49:51 a team of four firemen arrived and went up the stairs they were not breathing wearing breathing apparatus I stayed with the other firemen we covered our faces to try and help us help help us breathe oh I did certainly I'm not sure
01:50:09 breathe oh I did certainly I'm not sure about him I don't think he did let's break it down then how sure are you in your mind that there were four firemen now after hearing the evidence
01:50:22 firemen now after hearing the evidence well okay that's not just going back to what I remember do you still remember full firemen yes
01:50:34 do you still remember full firemen yes and you still not four but more than two less than five five three or four and
01:50:45 less than five five three or four and are you sure that they didn't have breathing apparatus no I'm not sure I don't remember them having breathing apparatus and the if we call them the
01:51:00 apparatus and the if we call them the newly arrived firemen were the ones that went back up the staircase is that right yes you you stayed with the other firemen yogurt now you say we and you've
01:51:13 firemen yogurt now you say we and you've corrected us in what you remember is you covering your face to try and help yourself breathe but you can't be sure about the affirming you were weird but why did you why did you have to cover
01:51:25 why did you why did you have to cover your face I think there was there was a little bit of smoke in the stairs at that stage and could you see where that smoke was coming from no but the
01:51:37 smoke was coming from no but the conditions on my floor would I would assume they would have been coming from the communal hallways
01:51:46 and when you say a little bit of smoke in the stairwell can you describe the smoke could you see it faint wispy smoke enough to make me cover my face but not enough to be drastically uncomfortable
01:52:00 enough to be drastically uncomfortable now and what color was it lights light gray what you continue to say is that
01:52:13 while you were waiting with the fireman your your neighbor at Devon past you yeah I think we've missed something which is that the team of firemen came
01:52:25 which is that the team of firemen came back down before it they found it because they couldn't find the floor okay well let's take it let's try and
01:52:36 okay well let's take it let's try and get the sequence right so I'm trying to they've come up and they've gone up and then so they came back down and what happened when they came back down on that time they said they didn't know where the sixteenth floor was and your
01:52:49 where the sixteenth floor was and your floor were we on at the moment one of the things you mentioned in your statement is that the way floors were numbered after the refurbishment yeah
01:53:01 numbered after the refurbishment yeah and can you just help us with on the floors that Whittle on your own floor the 16th floor was there a number there to mark what floor it was I never noticed one but the only reason I would
01:53:13 noticed one but the only reason I would have looked for one was on that evening that that night and there wasn't one so and did you look when those firemen came down asking because they couldn't
01:53:25 down asking because they couldn't identify the floor did you look around where you were to find out where which floor you were on with this fireman I think either the fireman or Hamid's
01:53:36 think either the fireman or Hamid's looked on the floors to see what what floor you're on at that time and did you in the stairwell notice any marking identifying the floor you were on no
01:53:47 identifying the floor you were on no sort of assumed that between the 11th and the 16th none of the floors are numbered as the firemen didn't know where they were so there was nothing too the firemen to work out where they were no so what did they do then to try and
01:54:06 no so what did they do then to try and identify which floor they were on they came back to us and asked us walkthrough we were on and who provided the answer I think the firemen I was with he he
01:54:18 think the firemen I was with he he checked one floor he couldn't see because it was to smoke logged and then he went down a floor I think to the 11th so I think we won the 12th or that stage and he said we're on the 11th floor so
01:54:29 and he said we're on the 11th floor so they then ran out to counting the floors to the 16th and after they had gone back
01:54:40 to the 16th and after they had gone back up was it then that EDI fan came down yeah and did he come down alone he did now what you say in paragraph 71 is my
01:54:54 now what you say in paragraph 71 is my other next-door neighbor was around he was running around opening doors he was trying to help is that mr. Wahby yes so I'd asked you
01:55:05 is that mr. Wahby yes so I'd asked you about this earlier because you said did you know when you you came across mr. Hardt Wahby in the stairwell mm-hmm do you think he was with you when you met the first firemen that you encountered I
01:55:20 think so but I can't remember that strongly that I think he was and you've got taken us through the sequence of the team coming up then going further up the
01:55:33 team coming up then going further up the stairwell coming back down because they couldn't identify the 16th floor and the efforts that were then made to try and identify which a floor number there was
01:55:45 identify which a floor number there was mr. while be with you when this was all going on I'm not sure
01:55:58 he was at some points but I'm not sure about for the entirety of the time but you have a recollection of mr. Wahby being around at about that time yeah
01:56:09 being around at about that time yeah let's look then just done at paragraph 74 please
01:56:20 you say the same group of firemen went up the stairs again leaving me with the original firefighter I'd met shortly after they came running down button totally petrified there was as if they
01:56:32 totally petrified there was as if they were literally running for their lives I asked the last one about my father he said that they could not do anything he told me no one could go up there and I had to leave I turned to the firemen
01:56:44 I had to leave I turned to the firemen I'd been waiting with and he just said to me to get out I ran with the firemen and it felt like I was running away from my father
01:56:52 my father when that fireman told you that they they could not do anything no what did you take him to mean by that they couldn't get to the property did he tell
01:57:06 couldn't get to the property did he tell you anything about how far they had been able to get no they ran past us and it seemed like they weren't gonna say anything to us until I said to the last one where's my father and he was it just
01:57:19 one where's my father and he was it just a brief conversation then he continued making his way down the stairs yeah I recall him saying we're getting out you need to get out and at the time that
01:57:31 need to get out and at the time that this happened what were the conditions like in your part of the stairwell
01:57:37 clearish clear I mean the same wispy smoke was there but it wasn't bad problem and we know that from the
01:57:48 problem and we know that from the stairwell you can't just look straight up and see what's happening on higher floors but did you have a sense of what was going on above you know
01:58:05 could we go please to page 13 and pick it up a paragraph 78 just again to give
01:58:19 it up a paragraph 78 just again to give that paragraph some context mr. Daniells you explained in your statement that you then made your way down the stairwell and out of the building and I just want to draw your attention to this paragraph
01:58:31 to draw your attention to this paragraph just because from the timing purposes you say you went outside stood about 20 feet away 25 feet away from the building it felt safe there I stood looking up at
01:58:42 it felt safe there I stood looking up at the building I knew for sure my father was dead at this point I called my mother at 1:38 a.m. and she came to join me now is that that is that the time
01:58:53 me now is that that is that the time marker that you're using to what and from which you work backwards as to the events of that night it is yeah once you were outside the tower did you speak to
01:59:05 were outside the tower did you speak to any other firefighter about your father I think it was a firefighter or a policeman I'm not sure yeah and what did you say to either the firefighter or
01:59:17 you say to either the firefighter or policemen that my father's in and what details did you get probably the floor number and the flat number I think it was my mother who did that I was not in
01:59:30 was my mother who did that I was not in the best shape mentally at that stage what will you say and we don't need to bring it up but you say your mum arrived about 2 a.m. so do you think any
01:59:41 about 2 a.m. so do you think any conversation with a firefighter or a police officer after you with your father would have happened after that yes do you remember a police officer asking you to give your flat details or
01:59:54 asking you to give your flat details or your name at all no I was pushed away from the scene not physically told to move away
02:00:07 mr. chairman I'm if I pause there I'm going to ask for a short break so that I can just check with the other lawyers if there are other matters to the end of the questions at you I thought I would
02:00:18 the questions at you I thought I would visualize yes we are going to have a short break now mr. Daniels Pinker's mr. Rawat and others leaders consider whether there are matters they should have covered but haven't so we'll break
02:00:31 have covered but haven't so we'll break now for 10 minutes and resume at 20 to 1 okay and shop these papers going on about your evidence wanna rush the room say if you gather the ashes you look after you thank you
02:00:54 right 20 to 1 and please
02:10:48 yes thank you for that mr. chairman we do have just two short matters to supper we've got for it mr. Daniels could you ask mr. Daniels to come back
02:10:59 could you ask mr. Daniels to come back please
02:11:20 [Music] thank you I think there are a couple of this okay yes thank you mr. Daniels um can I just take you back to I WS 608
02:11:32 um can I just take you back to I WS 608 page 8 please and just look at paragraph this is your stupidity this is of your statement paragraph 50 just sort of to give you some context of the question
02:11:43 give you some context of the question I'm going to ask this is taking you back to I think the first time that you looked out of a window and you corrected that centers to tell us that you were
02:11:54 that centers to tell us that you were would have been looking out of the living room window and again if I just read it corrected it would read I looked out of the living room window saw
02:12:05 out of the living room window saw flickering on the panels of the new school in front of the block and with that context can I take you to the plan in your statement which is page 16 and
02:12:20 we can see the sitting room there and it's the questions are directed towards the flickering that you saw and first of
02:12:32 the flickering that you saw and first of all can you remember which window you looked out of no it was one of the two of Noida now those windows face north
02:12:46 of Noida now those windows face north but are you able to say whether the flickering you saw was on the west or the east as you looked out
02:13:00 it was to my right see so that would be what would that be the East yes I think
02:13:11 what would that be the East yes I think would be the East said that that's where you useful flickering to your right yeah well on the panel's to my right yes and next matter is this and it's it's to
02:13:27 and next matter is this and it's it's to begin with thanks actually it's to say thank you very much for the witness statement that you've given and for coming to give evidence today and it's to what I'd like to finish by asking you
02:13:39 to what I'd like to finish by asking you this question above what you have set out in your written statement and the answers that you've given to my questions today is there anything else
02:13:50 questions today is there anything else that you saw and heard on that night that you would like to draw to the attention of the chair just that there
02:14:01 attention of the chair just that there are things that are not in this which I did see maja in the stairs as well with the firemen and I said to the firemen you know because he's disabled but I did
02:14:12 you know because he's disabled but I did say to the firemen how is he gonna get out and he shrugged his shoulders no no criticism of him for this but it's just something I've remembered since and also a family from my floor mother and
02:14:25 also a family from my floor mother and father and their daughter left the our floor as well that evening while I was in the stairs with the firemen and if I
02:14:38 in the stairs with the firemen and if I could ask a couple of supplementary questions on that and maja is maja Kadare who gave evidence yesterday yes and did you see him after your encounter
02:14:49 and did you see him after your encounter with the fireman or before after and so did you see him on a lower level as you will making your way down I've got no other and the family from your floor
02:15:00 other and the family from your floor that you just referred to did they pass you going down on the stairs they did to you
02:15:07 and keep the stands well mr. Daniels it's right that I should thank you very much for coming to give your evidence as I said to others as I'm sure you understand is really important to us to
02:15:19 understand is really important to us to know what conditions were like in the building at different levels at different times and how people's experienced it so your evidence will be very helpful to us I hope it hasn't been
02:15:30 very helpful to us I hope it hasn't been too difficult coming to relive those events
02:15:33 events anyway you given everyone is very very well and I'm very grateful to you so thank you thank you and you're free to go now and if you go with the ushers you look after you thank you very much
02:15:52 [Music] mr. chairman that concludes the Evans for this morning we have another witness scheduled to start at two o'clock right well in that case it's obviously
02:16:04 well in that case it's obviously convenient to break now and resume at 2:00 o'clock thanking us Jeff very good thank you very much two o'clock please