Branislav Lukic, resident of Flat 84 on the 11th floor, gives evidence about the night of the fire, including smoke entering his flat, attempts to escape, and his survival experience.
00:00:07 yes mr. Robert good afternoon mr. chairman may I call Branislav Lukich please yes thank you
00:00:51 [Music]
00:00:55 I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth
00:01:10 thank you very much mr. Lukic we'd like to sit down make yourself comfortable there good yes thank you sir good
00:01:24 there good yes thank you sir good afternoon can you give the inquiry your full name please my full name is Branislav lukkage Thank You mr. Lucas thank you very much for coming to give evidence to us today we all know that
00:01:38 evidence to us today we all know that that's not an easy thing to do but we're very grateful for your willingness to continue to help the inquiry I'm going to try and keep my questions short and straightforward but if I do ask you a
00:01:50 straightforward but if I do ask you a question which you don't understand please just tell me and I'll try to ask the question in a different way if you feel you need a break please let us know
00:02:03 feel you need a break please let us know and we'll stop but most importantly please just do take your time because your answers to the questions are very important the first thing I need to do
00:02:14 important the first thing I need to do is to formally put your witness statement into the record and can I bring up the first page please it's iaws 7 7 0 and it's page 1 just so that you
00:02:28 7 7 0 and it's page 1 just so that you can orientate yourself miss lukkage this is the first page of the statement that you've made specifically for the inquiry you can see that it's on the screen in front of you and you should also if you
00:02:40 front of you and you should also if you prefer paper have a bundle just sitting in front of you that's there and it's a tab 1 if you need it could we go to the last page please which way this page 16
00:03:02 before we do can we just take a quick look at page 15 please
00:03:13 and just expand the bottom there can you see mr. Lukesh the heading statement of truth and you've written there that I believe the facts stated in this
00:03:24 believe the facts stated in this statement are true your name appears at the bottom there and if we go over to the next page
00:03:32 there's a signature and the date the 27th of June 2018 can you confirm that that's your signature please it is this my signature have you had an opportunity
00:03:45 my signature have you had an opportunity to go over your statement recently sorry have you had an opportunity to look at your statement recently I have heard but I didn't my statement he's with me all the time
00:03:56 the time well can you confirm that the contents of that statement too true it is yes
00:04:03 there are three exhibits to the statement and we need to put those on the record we don't need to bring any of them up but for the record they are your Exhibit B l1 which is I WS 7 7 0 17
00:04:19 Exhibit B l1 which is I WS 7 7 0 17 Exhibit B l2 I WS 7 7 0 page 19 and Exhibit B l3 I WS 7 7 0 page 21 and
00:04:31 Exhibit B l3 I WS 7 7 0 page 21 and again just for the record these are two floor plans and an aerial view which have been marked by you can we go back just to the first page
00:04:46 it'll come up on the screen if you prefer whichever way you want to do it this is you and just expand then please paragraphs two and three in those
00:05:04 paragraphs two and three in those paragraphs mr. Lucas you've given some background and you say that you lived in flat 84 on the 11th floor of Grenfell tower that's right isn't it Mateusz yeah and you had by June 2017
00:05:23 Mateusz yeah and you had by June 2017 been living there for about six years that's correct it was a one-bedroom flat but in June of 2017 you had a flatmate living with you miron loved shin
00:05:36 living with you miron loved shin that's correct oh and he was using the living room as a bedroom is that right it is how long had Miran lived in the flat by then he was with me for
00:05:48 flat by then he was with me for approximately 11 or 12 months something like that we just take a look please at
00:06:06 Peg's let's look at your exhibit bl1 iws 7 7 0 page 18 please
00:06:21 and that's a layout of the floor of the 11th floor and you marked there who lived him in which flat and in particular you we can see that flat 84
00:06:35 particular you we can see that flat 84 is is in the middle of the floor isn't it it is behind the lips yep
00:06:46 I want to ask you just briefly some general questions about the flat and the floor which and those arise from your statement and can I take you back to
00:07:00 statement and can I take you back to page three of the statement and look at paragraph 13 please
00:07:15 what you've told us was to the kitchen paragraph 13 is you remember there being two big vents in the communal hallways which I think was supposed to clear smoke I remember at one point some
00:07:29 smoke I remember at one point some people came to inspect them or service them this was either around the time or shortly after the refurbishment after this the vents looked newer than they used to
00:07:40 used to I don't know whether they cleaned them or replace some of the parts but I remember afterwards I would sometimes hear noises coming from the vents I want to show you two photographs and Shemin
00:07:52 to show you two photographs and Shemin these are photographs that we've seen before
00:07:53 before with the other witnesses I'd really distress they're not but I think obviously a one can be alerted to fact that their photographs of the interior of the tower taken after the fire but
00:08:05 of the tower taken after the fire but let's look at the first one please mr. Lukesh it's the reference is BL a four zeroes to five one three
00:08:22 if I just explain just to give you some context
00:08:26 context mr. Lucas this is a photograph taken on floor six so it's not taken on your floor but the layout of the floors as we know from floor four upwards was the same it's taken after the fire but can
00:08:39 same it's taken after the fire but can you see on the back hall that we see that there are there's a grill just a it's close to ceiling height at the back do you see those I can see that yeah um
00:08:51 is that what you're thinking about when you refer to vents in the hallway I think once should be down lower in the
00:09:02 think once should be down lower in the bottom part of that wall and that's also could be a part of the ventilation but also I think it was another kind of grill net on the bottom part of the wall
00:09:14 grill net on the bottom part of the wall which you can see on on this photograph right now we've got that photograph showing one wall and the next photograph would show you the wall that would have
00:09:25 would show you the wall that would have been behind the photographer in this image and that's BL a four zeroes to five one four do you see there now yeah
00:09:37 five one four do you see there now yeah that's is that what you remember exactly that was on my side of the communal area it was positioned down lower
00:09:51 now you saying in that paragraph that I read out that the two big vents were and I quote you I think we're supposed to
00:10:02 I quote you I think we're supposed to clear smoke what made you think that they were there to clear smoke in the events of the fire as what we
00:10:15 events of the fire as what we experienced on the 9th on the firing grandfa tower they're supposed to do some job as they made to do but
00:10:29 some job as they made to do but unfortunately they didn't do a lot did anyone explain to you how these vents was a
00:10:35 was a is to work no now this this is all just that my vision what they supposed to do but unfortunately as I said they didn't
00:10:48 you say that you could sometimes hear noises coming from the vents can you describe the noise that you could hear
00:11:00 it's a quiet
00:11:07 similar to the to the electric engines it's a kind of you can you can hear the kind of what's supposed to work as a
00:11:19 kind of what's supposed to work as a ventilation it's just like strange noise of the ventilation nothing else nothing different how often would you hear these
00:11:30 different how often would you hear these noises not so often I can't say how many times I come across at the time when
00:11:42 times I come across at the time when they were on but I'm sure that I've heard them but obviously they just work when they don't need to work were there particularly times in the day
00:11:54 were there particularly times in the day when you would hear the noises no so it wasn't would you hear them when you left in the morning to go to work or when you came back at night I haven't heard them on that date or on the night of the fire
00:12:09 did you ever hear the noise on a hot day I don't remember was it on the hot day specifically or some other time but I
00:12:24 specifically or some other time but I I've heard had them few times but don't really know was it really hot or have they been on because of that reason or some other reason just inspection or
00:12:35 some other reason just inspection or something but obviously on the night of the fire day they haven't been on
00:12:45 you've referred and mentioned ventilation did you know and what we're looking at when we look at that photograph is the is the communal area isn't it
00:12:56 isn't it which which some people describe as the landing is that right it is yeah this is the communal area which is same on the each floor but did you know before June
00:13:10 each floor but did you know before June 2017 did you know how the temperature on the landing was controlled I didn't know were there ever times when you found the temperature on the landings to be
00:13:21 temperature on the landings to be uncomfortable maybe during the summertime during the very hot these which is a normal thing to get a bit hotter and warmer than usual but nothing
00:13:34 hotter and warmer than usual but nothing really unusual but on those days did you ever hear us the sound of fans know when you were on the landing no did you ever feel the movement of air not before we
00:13:51 feel the movement of air not before we leave that photograph you can see on the
00:13:56 left-hand side of the picture there's there's a what looks like a cupboard opposite the lifts do you see that and it's got a blue sign on it yeah I can
00:14:09 it's got a blue sign on it yeah I can see that in your statement and we'll come to it in due course you refer to a storage cupboard is that what you were referring to this is the cupboard which
00:14:23 referring to this is the cupboard which was covering the gas pipes and some other installations was there any other cupboard in the storage in the communal area that you remember nothing
00:14:42 area that you remember nothing except another one which was a short for the rubbish compartment so thank you we can see also in that image that there
00:14:54 can see also in that image that there are lights in the ceilings were they always on on your landing even late at night yeah most of the time yeah let's
00:15:08 night yeah most of the time yeah let's go back to your statement please and page 5
00:15:21 and just expand paragraph 18 please and this is the part of your statement where you deal with the door to your flat and
00:15:35 you deal with the door to your flat and you say I do not remember the front door in my flat being changed whilst I live there I do remember that it did not close automatically you had to put a
00:15:47 close automatically you had to put a push it shut after you entered the flat and pull it shut when you left so can you just help us with this how easy was it to open or shut the door it was very
00:16:00 it to open or shut the door it was very easy because door closer wasn't wasn't operating at all so every time when I'm opening the door in order to close them
00:16:11 opening the door in order to close them I need to push them back so it didn't close itself and was it just a case of when you were leaving to go to work for example that you would just was it fairly easy to pull it shut no it was
00:16:24 fairly easy to pull it shut no it was always the keys like everytime if I open the door I have to close them so they're not going to close itself and did your door have a letterbox in it yes
00:16:43 I just want now to start asking you some questions about the 13th and the 14th of June and can I take you just to page 6
00:16:54 June and can I take you just to page 6 of your statement please
00:16:59 and let's expand paragraphs 24 to 26
00:17:10 you begin mr. Lucas on the 13th of June you say you had a relatively normal day before going to bed on that night you've
00:17:23 before going to bed on that night you've been at work all day you came home you were tired as you've done a lot of driving that day and and when you went to sleep that night your flatmate Mirren
00:17:35 to sleep that night your flatmate Mirren hadn't come back yet had he is that right we do yeah if we look at paragraph 25 you say I woke up a little bit later
00:17:49 25 you say I woke up a little bit later to the sound of the fire alarm in my kitchen I looked at my watch I remember it was around 1:00 a.m. possibly a few minutes before or after I remember
00:18:00 minutes before or after I remember thinking that the firearm was probably just mirin smoking a cigarette mehran came into my room a few minutes later and asked me what was going on I asked him if he had been smoking which
00:18:12 asked him if he had been smoking which he denied he said that he didn't know what was going on now when you say far alarm in that paragraph do you mean smoke alarm yes and where was that smoke
00:18:25 smoke alarm yes and where was that smoke alarm located that you've said it's 1:00 in your kitchen it wasn't in the kitchen area did you have a smoke alarm anywhere else in the flat it may be in the hallway but to be
00:18:39 flat it may be in the hallway but to be honest I don't really remember the one that's clear in your mind is the one in the kitchen that's the one I remember very well because I used to reset that alarm few times on the night of the fire
00:18:54 and you mentioned there that it was an alarm that could be triggered by cigarette smoke had that happened before
00:19:03 not really but obviously it was a kind of sense that you alarm not to be triggered by the cigarette but
00:19:14 to be triggered by the cigarette but maybe if you're cooking something if you're burning forward that that could go off and that's it happened before in the past had it it did if we look at
00:19:25 the past had it it did if we look at paragraph 26 what you explained there is that you then got up and you walked to the kitchen let's look please just to what your plan
00:19:38 let's look please just to what your plan of the layout of the flat and that's at 7-7 0 20 please
00:19:53 I think if we just orientate yourself number one on that plan was your bedroom that right Medusa and then three is the
00:20:07 that right Medusa and then three is the kitchen and Miran was using the living room number four as his bedroom that's correct
00:20:15 correct and so to get from your bedroom you would have to walk out into the hallway and then into the through the door into the kitchen is that right not really
00:20:26 the kitchen is that right not really into the kitchen I can go straight from the hallway into the living room as you can see there is a door from the hallway into the room number four it's a direct
00:20:38 into the room number four it's a direct access also it could be accessed from the kitchen there is a as you can see the the cross in between three and four there is no wall it was open space so
00:20:50 there is no wall it was open space so also also to the kitchen but we can see I think that it looks like there's two doors in the hallway one that leads to your bedroom marked one and one that opens into the kitchen was that another
00:21:01 opens into the kitchen was that another route into the kitchen yeah so in effect you could you had there were three routes that you've pointed out you could go from the hallway through that door
00:21:12 go from the hallway through that door you could go through the living room and if you were already in the living room then where there's that cross you could just walk through that open space is
00:21:23 just walk through that open space is that right it is yeah you can walk in between living and lingam and kitchen that there is no doors it's an open space
00:21:35 when you woke up and when Miran came to see you before you left your bedroom were you aware of any smoke in your
00:21:46 were you aware of any smoke in your bedroom when I've got to the kitchen the small alarm as I mentioned as a fire alarm but actually that's the smoke
00:21:58 alarm but actually that's the smoke alarm he was on already and what crossed my mind at that time as I also mentioned I was thinking he was
00:22:09 I also mentioned I was thinking he was smoking he was kind of pretending he doesn't smoke but I was also pretending that I don't know about that I know but
00:22:22 that I don't know about that I know but that's what happened and because he is quite new in in the apartment and he was he was afraid and scared what what's
00:22:35 he was afraid and scared what what's happening because even if he were smoking before fire alarm never got off because of the the cigarette because of the smoke of the cigarette and at that
00:22:46 the smoke of the cigarette and at that time I didn't know really what's going on I reset alarm few times but every couple of seconds or minutes he goes off again so I reset alarm I remember two or
00:22:58 again so I reset alarm I remember two or three times in order to try to find out what's going on why is he is he going off all the time but again just if we
00:23:11 off all the time but again just if we can try and take it in stages so it's obviously the kitchen alarm going off but and you've got to get up from your bedroom and go to the kitchen haven't
00:23:23 bedroom and go to the kitchen haven't you yep whilst you were still in your bedroom were you aware of any smoke in the bedroom
00:23:33 not really because I was I was asleep at the time and when you're walking through from the
00:23:44 and when you're walking through from the bedroom when you're leaving the bedroom and getting into the kitchen did you notice any smoke in the hallway not not really even when I've got into the
00:23:56 really even when I've got into the kitchen I could smell some sort of
00:24:05 strange smell like em like when the electricity burning like when the plastic is burning and at that point I
00:24:16 plastic is burning and at that point I was thinking it could be some of the wires in the in the walls of the installation and I tried to touch the wall around the cooker I assumed that
00:24:29 wall around the cooker I assumed that could be a problem because that's a three-phase cooker and one of the faces could be burning but I couldn't find at that time nothing strange the the wall
00:24:41 that time nothing strange the the wall was just just a normal nothing hot at all the wall didn't feel hot CEO knowledge no and did the cook I didn't feel hot to you doctor no I noticed the
00:24:52 feel hot to you doctor no I noticed the tiny tiny layer of the smoke above but I didn't know where is that coming from Hannah the clue at that time well let's
00:25:03 Hannah the clue at that time well let's just take you back to what you say in your statement please if we look at page six of the statement in paragraph 26
00:25:19 I won't read it all out mr. Lukesh because you you've explained some of what you you did when you went to the kitchen already so I just pick up some parts of this that I want to ask you
00:25:32 parts of this that I want to ask you about so you've gone to the kitchen do you remember where the mirin came with you he was with me he was in the kitchen actually trying to find out same as
00:25:43 actually trying to find out same as myself what was going on and what you've described there is you realize that you you've turned off the fire fire alarm
00:25:55 you've turned off the fire fire alarm but you you say I turned around and realized that there was smoke in the flat not a lot but enough to make the fire alarm go off again in a minute or two after we had turned it off it was a
00:26:06 two after we had turned it off it was a very thin cloud of like gray smoke it looked like cigarette smoke it was all floating around the top of the room just below the ceiling I could smell the smoke but only just um just so that we
00:26:18 smoke but only just um just so that we can be clear which room are you referring to here there was in the kitchen so when you went to the kitchen
00:26:29 kitchen so when you went to the kitchen you you couldn't find anything wrong the nothing felt hot but what you did notice was like gray smoke floating at the top just below the ceiling is that right
00:26:40 just below the ceiling is that right it is yeah and at the time I didn't know where is there coming from even at that point I was thinking still thinking that that's the the cigarette smoke but
00:26:52 that's the the cigarette smoke but unfortunately that was wrong and did it smell like cigarette smoke no it was the smell more like you said like an
00:27:04 smell more like you said like an electric burning smell yeah and was it very strong smell not really
00:27:16 but not again not to be unnoticed so that was my viewing Gong on in regards of that
00:27:35 you mentioned I think is that you also opened the kitchen window is that right yes and did you leave the kitchen window open I did yeah I think it was slightly
00:27:51 open I did yeah I think it was slightly open already but just tried to open it fully as much as much was possible to open so even before that night it had been left slightly open had it it was a
00:28:02 been left slightly open had it it was a hot night yeah and you mentioned this power of that we can see that you you had looked out of the window and seen people outside and you've austie gone to
00:28:14 people outside and you've austie gone to open the window a little more was there anything else you can see from the kitchen window at this time I was able to see people down on the ground level
00:28:29 it was a time of day Ramadan and I know people are going to pray and break him fast there on that time and my first
00:28:41 fast there on that time and my first thought was that people are just coming back home from the pray from the mosque or just like from the night out I didn't I didn't know at that point what what
00:28:52 I didn't know at that point what what was going on but what you didn't sense was there you can keep looking out of the window didn't you didn't pick up on any signs of smoke outside or some signs
00:29:04 any signs of smoke outside or some signs of fire at all did you not from the outside it was a there was a bit louder than usually but I at that point I didn't think there is a fire on
00:29:22 maybe I didn't pay enough attention what was going on
00:29:34 can we then look furn at paragraph 28 please you begin that paragraph saying
00:29:46 please you begin that paragraph saying Moran had walked out of the kitchen by this point I'm not sure when around 5 or 10 minutes after we first turned the fire alarm off so around 110 115 by then
00:29:58 fire alarm off so around 110 115 by then what has happened is you've woken up Moran and yourself have gone to the kitchen by then how many times do you think you'd have to turn the fire alarm off three four times even at some point
00:30:14 off three four times even at some point it wasn't even possible to turn it off because he kept going all the time so
00:30:23 what hadn't happened had there been any change in the conditions in the kitchen well I mean like once you try to turn it off again and again and he goes off I
00:30:36 off again and again and he goes off I mean something is happening but I didn't know what was going on it's Gemma I'm just going to move on to another topic shortly so I wonder whether we could have a short five-minute break this way
00:30:48 have a short five-minute break this way yes please well mr. Lucas we have breaks in the evidence from time to time for all sorts of reasons and as you heard mr. Robert would like a break nurse so we are going to stop for a short time let's say 10
00:31:00 to stop for a short time let's say 10 minutes I have to ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room and if you go with the ash and we resume that 22 to change the three other sorry all right okay not to
00:31:13 three other sorry all right okay not to give the option thank you
00:31:27 like twenty two three please
00:39:43 yes mr. robot I'm ready could we ask mr. Lukey to come back please
00:40:24 right mr. luggage ready to carry on yep Thank You Morgan Thank You mr. Jim could we go back please to page 7 and paragraph 28
00:40:41 mr. Lukesh if I pick it up from Moran opening the front door to the flat and what you say is the whole flat seemed to fill up with incredibly thick black acrid smoke within seconds it felt like
00:40:55 acrid smoke within seconds it felt like there was a draft coming through which sucked all of the dark smoke into the flat billowing through the door into the hole of the flat floor-to-ceiling it was not so thick that I could not see anything I rushed to close the front
00:41:07 anything I rushed to close the front door the smell was horrible smelt very strong I was coughing a lot
00:41:16 the smoke was obviously very different from that which you had first noticed in the kitchen wasn't it it was very different and before Mirren opened the
00:41:27 different and before Mirren opened the door had any of this black smoke come into the flat at all no you've described what it looked like did it feel hot at all by the time when
00:41:42 did it feel hot at all by the time when he went to open the front door I was probably in the kitchen I didn't even know that he was going to open the door he was just curious to find out where the where's the smoke coming from and
00:41:55 the where's the smoke coming from and when I realized there is a smoke black smoke pouring into the flat I just rushed to the to the door and closed it I presume because windows have been
00:42:08 I presume because windows have been already open and the draft was pulled in because windows are open and then he opened the front door and that even soaked the black smoke faster and it was
00:42:24 soaked the black smoke faster and it was just it was just something unexpected and all I was well I did after I pulled some towels from the bathroom trying to close the door and trying to protect the
00:42:36 close the door and trying to protect the area around the door as much as possible and we said you see that you you say at the end of this paragraph that that work to an extent the smoke stopped billowing
00:42:47 to an extent the smoke stopped billowing through in from the hallway but there was still quite a lot of smoke around the flat so had that black smoke then got into other of the flat into the living room in the kitchen yeah it was yeah because I think
00:43:00 kitchen yeah it was yeah because I think my door on the bedroom was closed at that time and the smoke came to the hallway into the living room and it's a
00:43:16 hallway into the living room and it's a very narrow hallway and very small so it's easier to to fill up with a with that smoke from the communal area and
00:43:27 that smoke from the communal area and you describe this as horrible and smelling very strong can you help us at all
00:43:33 all with with what the smell was like what did it remind you of it's like a black
00:43:51 did it remind you of it's like a black smoke which is a similar to one when once you are burning tires or something
00:44:03 what can make you invisible around
00:44:14 you've said in there that you were coughing a lot did it have any other effect on you this smoke no how I was just them probably my automatic reaction
00:44:29 just them probably my automatic reaction on the on the amount of the smoke which came in obviously it wasn't same to breathe in that condition as in regular condition that could be risen but at
00:44:42 condition that could be risen but at that point it wasn't nothing serious to be choked by death smoke and Moran had
00:44:54 be choked by death smoke and Moran had opened the door you moved to close it in doing that and shutting the door did you were you able to see anything of what was happening in the landing area no do
00:45:06 was happening in the landing area no do you mean in the communal area communal area we do you have any sense whether the lights in the communal area was still on or not no no at that point so does that no they weren't on or no you
00:45:18 does that no they weren't on or no you didn't see I didn't see it was obviously was even worse than in the flat but I didn't see at that point I didn't even look at my my point was just to close
00:45:31 look at my my point was just to close the door as soon as possible and block it to stop the smoke to get through thank you can we just now take a look at paragraph 29 please
00:45:47 you explain then that mr. Lucas although what you did to try and clear the smoke was you broke the clasp on the kitchen window so that you could you could open
00:45:59 window so that you could you could open it more fully do you see that yep and that cleared the smoke and then you poked your head out of the kitchen window when you did that and looked out
00:46:13 window when you did that and looked out could you see anything that indicated that there was a fire no not for the window what I realized at that point
00:46:26 window what I realized at that point there was a more and more people down on the side of my building and then I noticed something is happening at that
00:46:38 noticed something is happening at that time I didn't know how serious was a fire and I didn't see any smoke from outside and I also didn't see any any flame from the outside at that point but
00:46:53 flame from the outside at that point but was it at that point that you decided that that you ought to leave the flat it wasn't really in the beginning of that time because I didn't know how serious
00:47:06 time because I didn't know how serious fire was I didn't even know there is a I assume there is a fire in the building but I didn't know where exactly is it below or above I didn't know how how
00:47:17 below or above I didn't know how how serious and how fast he was fire was breathing I'd like to show you a different plan now just to ask you again questions about layout let's go to MIT
00:47:31 questions about layout let's go to MIT triple zero one two five nine three and look at page 12 of that document please
00:47:40 then just so that you can understand mr. Lucas this is a plan of the fourth floor but it's a it works as a plan for every floor above so that this would be the
00:47:51 floor above so that this would be the layout of your floor as well and we can see flat 84 the flat fours are in the would be the middle flatter left left-hand side as we look at the plan so
00:48:04 left-hand side as we look at the plan so tell me if this is right or wrong if we look at that plan and if we could just expand the the middle section please so that we've got flat four in the communal
00:48:16 that we've got flat four in the communal area
00:48:17 area yeah the flat four is in my flat yet is exactly in the middle of the building so so to leave it you would have when you
00:48:28 so to leave it you would have when you were leaving if you were wanting to make your way to the stairs you'd go out through the front door walk along a small hallway turn towards where the lifts are and then the the door to the
00:48:41 lifts are and then the the door to the stairs would be on the other side from the bin chute is that right - yeah now sorry could you just repeat this one
00:48:52 sorry could you just repeat this one again please yes so do you see that you've got on flat four you've got the whole cover you if we look on the inside so that's where the door would be so you'd walk out of the door into the
00:49:03 you'd walk out of the door into the communal hall wouldn't you and then you'd have to turn right and walk past the lifts to get to the stairs is that how you remember it yeah now
00:49:16 is that how you remember it yeah now although there were lifts in the tower did you have you had you ever try to use the stairs at all do you mean before the
00:49:27 the stairs at all do you mean before the fire
00:49:27 fire yes on a normal day of course and can you help us with the distance from your flat door to the stairwell door
00:49:41 you know in in a regular circumstances you don't pay attention to the distance from from my front door to the stairwell
00:49:52 from from my front door to the stairwell that's a fair answer can I put it this way then
00:49:55 way then on a normal day and in normal circumstances if you had to use the stairs how long would it have taken you to get from your flat door to the stairwell a couple of seconds let's say
00:50:09 stairwell a couple of seconds let's say maybe I don't know 10 15 seconds if everything is fine in the in the regular circumstances let's go back sorry sorry
00:50:24 circumstances let's go back sorry sorry no please come on it could be distance of maybe I don't know 15 meters or I don't know 20 bucks not more let's go
00:50:37 don't know 20 bucks not more let's go back to your statement and look at page 8 please in paragraph 31
00:50:49 so we have 30 and 31 so that we can just understand the context
00:51:10 and if I draw your attention to paragraph 30 please mr. Lukic what you say there is you begin it by saying I can't remember what time it was but I remember looking at my watch around this
00:51:21 remember looking at my watch around this time and seeing it was before 1:30 and you then say if you had to estimate the time it would have been around 1:20 and you say that you were worried about the
00:51:33 you say that you were worried about the smoke because you'd never seen smoke quite like it and you and Moran had a conversation and decided to try to go down the stairs and you put a jacket on
00:51:45 down the stairs and you put a jacket on and you felt that you wanted something with long sleeves in case you had to run through a fire so that you didn't get burnt if we pick it up a paragraph 31
00:51:57 burnt if we pick it up a paragraph 31 you then explained is that you both got some tea towels wrap them around your faces so you could block out some of the smoke and your plan was just to run to
00:52:08 smoke and your plan was just to run to the stairwell is that right that's right and you say once we stepped out into the hall it was black entirely black I could
00:52:19 hall it was black entirely black I could not see a thing smoke was everywhere it was absolutely terrifying I tried to walk across the other side of the hallway towards the stairway and then you go on to describe that you heard
00:52:31 you go on to describe that you heard mirin telling you that he was going to turn back now when you stepped out into that communal area you encountered as
00:52:42 that communal area you encountered as you described there the same smoke again didn't you yeah it was yeah it was black thick smoke you can stay longer in that
00:52:56 thick smoke you can stay longer in that communal area with that much smoke around it wasn't possible to see anything wrong and were there we saw
00:53:07 anything wrong and were there we saw that the earlier that there are lights in the communal area where you were the lights on over there I couldn't see them so was it just smoke was everywhere here
00:53:19 so was it just smoke was everywhere here was smoke everybody and were you aware that smoke immediately you left your flat so as soon as you open the front door it was there was I knew we have to we have to get through
00:53:31 knew we have to we have to get through that smoke in order to reach the the fire door the stairwell but I didn't
00:53:43 fire door the stairwell but I didn't know we're gonna get lost in the smoke I didn't think that would happen at all and was it the case that you could hear me ran but you couldn't see him I
00:53:54 me ran but you couldn't see him I couldn't see him he was behind me and even even if I turn around I couldn't see him so the only I remember that he said we're not gonna make it I'm going
00:54:06 said we're not gonna make it I'm going back to the to the flat if we pick up what what you also say in this paragraph I turn to try to get to Moran but got
00:54:17 I turn to try to get to Moran but got disorientated very quickly as I could not see anything I put my hands out to feel my way around and think I hit the storage cupboard I tried to force the doors open but they were locked just a
00:54:29 doors open but they were locked just a number of questions about that um you say you were disorientated very quickly as I couldn't see anything but was the smoke having any other effect on you
00:54:48 he had yet I was in a fear I was panicking I couldn't find the way to the
00:55:00 panicking I couldn't find the way to the fire door also that thick smoke is choking you you can't breathe properly so you can't stay I don't know as long you can you can
00:55:13 I don't know as long you can you can hold your breath that much you're safe over there even that knowing that I had that I had a tablecloth over all my mouth in order to help me to breathe a
00:55:24 mouth in order to help me to breathe a bit easier but it doesn't help him in that condition it doesn't help a lot and the storage cupboard that you refer to which cupboard are you referring to
00:55:35 which cupboard are you referring to there that's the one opposite of the side where the lift is in the communal area so it's directly opposite of the
00:55:46 area so it's directly opposite of the lifts
00:55:55 if we carry on and I'll carry on reading you then say thinking back to it I could
00:56:04 have felt my way towards the stairs to the right but instead I felt my way to the left towards the room with the rubbish chute I don't know why I was confused disorientated and terrified I
00:56:16 confused disorientated and terrified I was finding it really difficult to breathe and was coughing over and over I realized it was less smoky than the hallway I could see in front of me the smoke was gray in the shoot area
00:56:27 smoke was gray in the shoot area compared to the dark black in the hallway I could breathe a little bit and there compared to the hallway was this where the smoke was so accurate that I was unable to take a breath when you
00:56:39 was unable to take a breath when you were in that rubbish shoot shoot in the big room did you did you sense any kind of movement of air in the in the rubbish shoot room not really
00:56:54 shoot room not really but why I realised it was a way better than in the communal area it was smoky but grey smoke it wasn't thick black smoke at least I was able to to get
00:57:08 smoke at least I was able to to get another another breath I was I was about
00:57:17 already out running out of the breath before I reached the short area the rubbish compartment and it was it just
00:57:30 rubbish compartment and it was it just by chance that you managed to get into that I didn't know I didn't even know how I ended up over there so I was just touching the wall trying to push the door I was thinking I will find the fire
00:57:41 door I was thinking I will find the fire door the stairwell exit fire exit actually but instead of going to the right direction where I supposed to I don't know how come I ended up on the left side push the door open the door
00:57:53 left side push the door open the door then I found myself in the in the in the short and as you've explained there was more air for you there it was much better than than the communal area but
00:58:05 better than than the communal area but there was still some smoke in that area wasn't there it was a smoky also but really better than than communal and in that shoot room we did you have a sense
00:58:16 that shoot room we did you have a sense of where the smoke was coming from at all I was coming to the door that was the only way I think that's that's what I assumed but that the short has got the the proper fire door like wouldn't take
00:58:31 the proper fire door like wouldn't take fire door that maybe
00:58:38 protect that area a little bit better than other doors or I don't know or even also like the part in the short where you really have to put the rubbish in
00:58:50 you really have to put the rubbish in it's connected down to the ground directly it could be dropped from the from the outside area from from the lower floors but anyway it was it was way better than the communal area it was
00:59:03 way better than the communal area it was smoky but not that much like like the communal and how long did you spend in that rubbish room I know it took me I
00:59:15 that rubbish room I know it took me I don't know maybe a minute until I realized what was happening then I realized that Miren got back friend of mine got back to the flat and I had to
00:59:28 mine got back to the flat and I had to go back to the plant to take him again so I don't know let's say let's say up to a minute maybe maybe just enough to get another breath to realize where I'm
00:59:40 get another breath to realize where I'm and what what should I do next and as you tell us in your stable what you did next was to and you managed to make your way back to flat 84 didn't you yes I did
00:59:51 way back to flat 84 didn't you yes I did because my front door it's on the opposite side of the of the first of the rubbish compartment of the show so even
01:00:02 rubbish compartment of the show so even by touching the wall it will take me to my flat so I'm not going to get lost again
01:00:08 again it will take me straight even in the pitch dark space it'll lead me as long on I'm focused on it and as long I can
01:00:19 on I'm focused on it and as long I can kept my breath it'll take me back to the to the flat we look please at paragraph 32 of your staple which is on the same page page 9 now
01:00:37 I won't read it all out what what you explained here mr. Lucas is that having got back into the flat you ran across to
01:00:48 got back into the flat you ran across to the kitchen window and you were sticking your head out of the window to try and look around and down for the fire and
01:00:59 look around and down for the fire and what you say is that this is the second time you'd looked out at the kitchen window wasn't it it was probably either nor me beater door for time but then I
01:01:10 nor me beater door for time but then I realized something serious is happening so even experience that communal area with that much smoke and then even seeing more people outside at that point
01:01:23 seeing more people outside at that point I realized something's something's happening something serious is happening what you couldn't see from that kitchen window at this point even after having
01:01:35 window at this point even after having come back from the communal hallway there was no sign of fire or smoke outside was there I couldn't see that point no of course my my flat is in the middle of the of the building and I can
01:01:48 middle of the of the building and I can see nothing what's happening on the side I can see only down towards the west side and and down under of course or what what was happening down on the
01:02:00 what what was happening down on the ground floor I mean outside ground if we go then to paragraph 34 please it's on
01:02:11 go then to paragraph 34 please it's on page 10
01:02:17 again I won't read it all out but what then happened is that you had a discussion with Miran and you decided to make another attempt to leave your flat
01:02:28 make another attempt to leave your flat is that right I was trying to convince him because at that point he didn't want to do because we got lost first time and it was a very difficult for both of us
01:02:43 to find out what to do next I was confused also because he didn't want to I was about to try again but then again
01:02:56 I was about to try again but then again I was confused I knowing what's the really right thing to do to stay in or try again but luckily I convinced him to to try again and what you do you say if
01:03:10 to try again and what you do you say if we pick a look at the second half of that paragraph who told him that our plan would be to feel our way to the rubbish chute and from there to feel our way to the stairwell I remember him saying that he did not know the building
01:03:21 saying that he did not know the building as well as I did and he didn't want to do it I told him that I would lead him and that he would not get left behind I said we would either stay together or get out together and then you told him
01:03:33 get out together and then you told him to grab some things and to get some water from the fridge and get ready to go can you remember where you were when you had this conversation with me round' we were next to the window and was that the window in the kitchen window in the
01:03:46 the window in the kitchen window in the kitchen and the window in the living room are not far away from each other so we probably try to find out each of the windows what's going on in order to
01:03:58 the windows what's going on in order to get more informations people down on the ground they already have been shouting on us in the building to get out of the building there is a fire on but I couldn't see if I was behind me I could
01:04:10 couldn't see if I was behind me I could at that point I didn't know how how big and serious fire was please a paragraph 35 and 36
01:04:24 and you deal in these paragraphs with the preparations that you made to get out so you got your wallet your phone in your keys and Miron had had a large
01:04:36 your keys and Miron had had a large backpack but also because he couldn't find some water here I think he bought some beers instead and you say that was the sort of guy he was and you got some
01:04:48 the sort of guy he was and you got some kitchen towels soaked them in water which was to use to press in front of your faces um what'd you say in paragraphs 436 though is that the flat was beginning to fill up with smoke more
01:04:59 was beginning to fill up with smoke more and more I can't remember what we'd done with the towels underneath the front door but I suppose we'd not replace them after leaving the flat the first time and smoke was coming in underneath the
01:05:11 and smoke was coming in underneath the door were you so that's the front door were you aware of smoke coming in anywhere else in the flat no I was
01:05:24 anywhere else in the flat no I was thinking that's the that's the only place where the smoke was coming from I didn't even think about any other but
01:05:37 welcome that part was was the the more serious part where the smoke was coming into I didn't even pay attention is he
01:05:48 into I didn't even pay attention is he coming to somewhere else but it was enough of the smoke to get through the door not even to try to find out where else is coming from what you say about
01:05:59 else is coming from what you say about the smoke that was coming in was that it was not as thick as it was in the hall and that's the communal area isn't it yeah it was a light gray color and you could see through it a bit easier it was
01:06:11 could see through it a bit easier it was all around us though from floor to ceiling
01:06:15 now do you described it as being a different color from the smoke that you'd encountered when you went out into the community oh do you remember any
01:06:26 the community oh do you remember any other differences about the smoke that was coming in was there a difference of smell for example it's exactly same
01:06:37 smell for example it's exactly same smoke and the only difference was it wasn't that thick as the smoke in the in the communal area also the one of the
01:06:50 the communal area also the one of the reason why it wasn't so thick and and and black the windows have been open all the time and even with a small who what
01:07:03 the time and even with a small who what was in the apartment already I was trying to get rid of so at least we were able to to see that smoke and even to to breathe properly on the window and
01:07:20 breathe properly on the window and whilst you were in the flat and and you've described this now you made attempts to try and clear some of that smoke did it have any physical effect on you or on mirror on just a coffin
01:07:37 we were able to see each other and to keep Kerry conversation in between us what are we going to do next but just that just a smoke wasn't we learned
01:07:53 that just a smoke wasn't we learned paragraph 37 38 on page 11 please
01:08:05 what you do there is set out the details of the the second time that you left your flat and you explained that you took me runs hand opened the door felt
01:08:19 took me runs hand opened the door felt your way to the rubbish chute and led him behind you and then you felt the way along to the storage cupboard and past that to the stairwell so did you stop inside the rubbish chute
01:08:30 so did you stop inside the rubbish chute or did you just keep going no we didn't stop second time we just kept going but there was a kind of mind direction to go
01:08:43 there was a kind of mind direction to go straight and then I'm in like from that point there is no left anymore it's just a right so just to go around the cupboard in order to find a fire or fire
01:08:54 cupboard in order to find a fire or fire escape and if describe this make there as so so thick what was it like on this second time you went out in the convene
01:09:05 second time you went out in the convene layer compared to the first it was even worse because it took us probably another 15 or 20 minutes in the flat it took me that much time in order to
01:09:16 took me that much time in order to convince him to try again even at that time I didn't know is that really good thing to try to do it again or not - because out through the windows
01:09:28 because out through the windows I could see we are not the only people who are stuck in the building I could see people down below and also people above me and Miran was thinking someone
01:09:41 above me and Miran was thinking someone will get in and rescue us but smoke was coming true and we made get inside and
01:09:52 coming true and we made get inside and survive for another hour or two or three but sooner or later we won't be able as longer time we spent in there was a last chance to get out and that's why I was
01:10:05 chance to get out and that's why I was trying to convince him to - to do it again
01:10:08 again and thank God we we did
01:10:13 and on that second attempt as you're making your way across the communal area do you remember what the temperature was like on the landing it was hot
01:10:25 like on the landing it was hot smoke it was way worse than first time and when you you got to the stairwell and we see that in paragraph 38 you say when we arrived at the stairwell do you
01:10:37 when we arrived at the stairwell do you remember if the door to the stairwell was open or closed when you got to it I think I had to push them to open we just
01:10:50 think I had to push them to open we just look at paragraph 38 what you say about the stairwell is I remember being relieved as a smokin there was less thick less black there was smoke
01:11:01 thick less black there was smoke everywhere but it was a bit thinner you could see more through it and it was more gray than it was black I don't remember why it was less smoky in the stairwell but I do remember in the hall
01:11:12 stairwell but I do remember in the hall there were the big industrial vents in there that used to be really noisy I thought all that all the smoke might have been pouring through them and when you're mentioning industrial vents are
01:11:24 you're mentioning industrial vents are those the grills that we looked at earlier in the photographs yes their dad the renter I was mentioning before and in this paragraph two exactly same ones yeah but you didn't you weren't able to
01:11:37 yeah but you didn't you weren't able to see whether there was smoke coming through those vents on that night where you know it was too smoky I couldn't find out where the smoke was coming from I just presumed me was coming through
01:11:48 I just presumed me was coming through the ventilation and just so that we can be clear did you hear any noises from those vents that no no
01:12:02 mr. chairman I'm going to move on now to discuss about events in the stairwell but before I do that could I ask just for another short break please yes I
01:12:13 for another short break please yes I would displace yes well there we are mr. Lukic mr. mr. grubber would like another break so we'll all have there another break and we'll come back at 25 past three and resume the
01:12:25 back at 25 past three and resume the questions then if that's all right for you yes okay what would you like to go with the Astra thank you very much
01:12:44 I take it will write for time now we muster a lot yes thank you twenty five four three
01:25:42 good right would you like to ask mr. Lucas to come back please
01:26:14 right you happy to carry on this lukkage yep thank you yes mr. robot Thank You mr. chairman Thank You mr. Luce could we please go back to your statement page 11 and just
01:26:27 back to your statement page 11 and just look at paragraph 39 please before we had the break you told us that you
01:26:39 had the break you told us that you remember just pushing the stairwell door open and getting into the stairwell and if we pick it up at that point you saying you let go of Moran's hand and we ran down the stairs now what were the
01:26:51 ran down the stairs now what were the conditions like in the stairwell as you started going down it was much better than in the communal area it was smoky but gray smoke not like a black thick we
01:27:05 but gray smoke not like a black thick we could see each other we can breathe even like we can communicate so I was way better than than the communal area and what you say in this paragraph was that
01:27:17 what you say in this paragraph was that it felt like we ran down three or four stories but on the tenth floor we heard a noise coming from the hallway so is that from the communal area on the tenth floor that you heard the noise yes miron
01:27:30 floor that you heard the noise yes miron was behind me and stopped by the door to the hallway he opened the door and saw Clarita a woman who lived on the floor below was standing there surrounded with black smoke now before Mirren opened the
01:27:44 black smoke now before Mirren opened the door onto floor ten was there any smoke coming into the stairwell from that through that door you remember I don't remember and you mentioned that when the
01:27:57 remember and you mentioned that when the door was open you saw Clarita was she someone that you've known before that night yes I did know her but we used to be a neighbors and I didn't know her
01:28:11 be a neighbors and I didn't know her personally but as a neighbor you say that she was surrounded by with black smoke could you see anything else of the
01:28:22 smoke could you see anything else of the tenth floor no and so all you have a sense of as Claritas and then black smoke
01:28:28 smoke it was just a matter of the seconds just to pull her out as soon as possible I haven't even paid attention what was
01:28:39 haven't even paid attention what was like condition on the tenth floor so I assumed I mean it was a black but I didn't had a time to inspect how black and smoky was over there so it was all
01:28:51 and smoky was over there so it was all just about run out as fast as possible and but was the smoke the same as the
01:29:02 and but was the smoke the same as the smoke that you had encountered on your own floor what it was yeah it was I can see exactly how same or similar to each other by was black and smoking and as
01:29:15 other by was black and smoking and as you explained you you you then pulled Clarita into the stairwell and did you just then close the door yeah again I
01:29:27 just then close the door yeah again I won't read it all out but I'll just summarize it that you explained that because Clarita seemed to find it difficult to walk Mehran and yourself tried to prop her up between you but
01:29:40 tried to prop her up between you but because you were different heights it didn't work and Moran tried to pick to eat her up but that didn't work either and so you said that you would take
01:29:51 and so you said that you would take Clarita and you picked her up put her over your shoulder from the front like a fireman's lift and you then started walking down the stairs as fast as you could that's correct as you were walking
01:30:05 could that's correct as you were walking down were you did you have any sense of people walking down the stairwell from floors above you there's no people at the time so you I couldn't hear anyone so apart from the
01:30:18 I couldn't hear anyone so apart from the three of you as far as you were where there was no one else in the stairwell no one we look please at paragraph 40 on page 12
01:30:34 and you say that after a little while it must have been on the fifth or sixth floor we met some firefighters my immediate thought was these were the first people we'd seen on the stairs I thought that everyone must have escaped
01:30:46 thought that everyone must have escaped by now and that we were the last out the firefighters had masks on or pulling hoses up the stairs there were five or six of them do you remember if the
01:30:57 six of them do you remember if the firefighters had any doors on the stairwell open I don't remember that I remember I remember lots of horses on
01:31:10 remember I remember lots of horses on the on the stairs
01:31:14 crossing each other but I don't remember that any of the doors were open or maybe I didn't even look around can you
01:31:28 I didn't even look around can you remember what the conditions were like in the stairwell when you met the firefighters they were a small key but not bad again as a as a communal area it
01:31:40 not bad again as a as a communal area it was okay even to breathe through that smoke you could see pretty much everything as you came down from your
01:31:52 everything as you came down from your floor the 11th down to the 10th and then carried on down the stairwell did the conditions in the stairwell change at all either feeling as lower I was
01:32:05 all either feeling as lower I was getting down towards the exit of the building it seemed as a bit clearer than than the above floors so I just assumed
01:32:19 than the above floors so I just assumed because it was directly connected to the outside area where you can get more draught or more fresh air I didn't even
01:32:31 draught or more fresh air I didn't even know at the time where the fire was what floor what condition of the fire was let's look at paragraph 41 now
01:32:46 you say there that you put Clarita down towards the bottom I can't remember exactly where but she began walking down the stairs herself it becomes it became clear it was bottom with less and less
01:32:58 clear it was bottom with less and less smoke and you say you stopped running and started walking down and then we came out of the front door no front door are you referring there to the main entrance to the shower on the ground
01:33:10 entrance to the shower on the ground floor yep
01:33:21 now if we look at paragraphs 42 and 41 they're on pages 13 and fourth or a 42 and 43 please they're on pages 13 and 12
01:33:33 and 43 please they're on pages 13 and 12 and 13 of the statement
01:33:44 if we again I won't read it all out but if you what happened here is what you're describing mr. Liu Kitsch is coming out of the main entrance turning towards the left and then if we go through the next
01:33:58 left and then if we go through the next page please and just expand 42 and 43
01:34:13 you see that the the last part of that paragraph you refer to walking back towards a firefighter gathered to one of the firefighters gathering around the tower to ask if I could help and then in
01:34:25 tower to ask if I could help and then in the first line of 43 you speak of some other people with me speaking to the firefighters asking to get back in to get to their family members and we were
01:34:36 get to their family members and we were all told to get back
01:34:48 when you had the contact with the firefighters can you remember what time that was approximately I don't remember
01:35:00 that was approximately I don't remember exactly what time was
01:35:09 was it fair can you remember how soon after you left the tower that you offered to help offer made an offer of help to a firefighter and also saw he saw people speaking to firefighters I
01:35:24 say was like as soon I I left Clarita as a Zeb with other people to be safe I
01:35:37 a Zeb with other people to be safe I tried to get back to the tower and I think it was maybe 15 or 20 minutes after I've got out so I presume around
01:35:49 after I've got out so I presume around half to something like that maybe maybe before why I'm not sure about the time because I didn't pay attention to the time at that at all at the time let's
01:36:03 time at that at all at the time let's look at paragraph 45 please can you see that the last sentence of that paragraph reads I went to a pub near Latimer Road
01:36:14 reads I went to a pub near Latimer Road station at one point where I gave a police officer my name to say that I was not missing from the tower and that I had made it out I appreciate the time as it is difficulty in that kind of
01:36:27 it is difficulty in that kind of situation but can you remember again how soon after leaving the tower that you gave that police officer your details there was I think there was already day time so it could be like after five
01:36:40 time so it could be like after five o'clock it's a summer time and the Sun gets out earlier so I presume he was it it was a day time I remember five six I
01:36:51 it was a day time I remember five six I don't know at least it was a kind of
01:36:56 information point just to find out who made out who who who stayed in in the tower at that time it was just they tried to gather some more information
01:37:07 tried to gather some more information and I remember I was talking to to the police officer who was who wasn't even marked like unmarked police I think he
01:37:18 marked like unmarked police I think he was police officer that's how he present himself
01:37:23 himself and I just I just said that I I'm out like I said what floor what apartment I think he he made a note about that I don't know what he did after that you
01:37:35 don't know what he did after that you described it as an information point how did you know to go to that point I was just around pure consonants like let's
01:37:47 just around pure consonants like let's say that way I was just around and I don't know how come up I came engaged in conversation and I just said that I'm from the tower and
01:37:58 just said that I'm from the tower and just to make sure that I'm not the one of the missing person so that that what I was trying to say because I knew how many people at that time I realized
01:38:10 many people at that time I realized there was a there was many people who who didn't make out unfortunately but by that time you've had that conversation he told you said it here it must have been light it was yours they lied before
01:38:21 been light it was yours they lied before you spoke to that officer had anyone asked you for details of what floor or what flat if not on its jem those are
01:38:32 what flat if not on its jem those are all the questions I've proposed to ask but I'm going to ask for the usual 5-minute break if I may just to check with others if there are additional questions all right well this Lukich I said to you earlier we have lots of
01:38:43 said to you earlier we have lots of breaks for all sorts of different reasons and now mr. Robert thinks he's got to the end of his questions but he needs just an opportunity to check that there aren't any others he ought to be asking you so again to have a short
01:38:55 asking you so again to have a short break 5 minutes left this time yes 5-minute break just to give them that opportunity so again if you'd like to go to the Usher and please don't talk to
01:39:06 to the Usher and please don't talk to anyone of course about their evidence and we'll come back up course deform see if there are more since for you thank you all right thank you very much
01:39:27 right mr. Allen gets a quarter for but if it turns out that do you need more time
01:39:32 time just let the ocean air
01:46:05 yes mr. Rohit mr. chairman we do have a couple of matters still the force mr. dick hitch all right well we could you ask mr. Lucas to come back then please
01:46:45 Thank You mr. Luke each I gather there are a couple of questions that we need to ask you so yes mr. rabbit when you're ready mr. Lukic I'm going to show you a
01:47:00 ready mr. Lukic I'm going to show you a photograph again it's one taken from inside the tower after the fire but it isn't a photograph that's distressing it's in fact of a rubbish shoot because
01:47:12 it's in fact of a rubbish shoot because I have BL AR six zeros ten please and page twenty-nine in that document did you see in front of you then mr. Lucas that that's a photograph of the interior
01:47:25 that that's a photograph of the interior the bin chute room in fact can you see the large gray panel it's just in the lower half of that image I think if that's the actual bin shoot itself isn't
01:47:37 that's the actual bin shoot itself isn't it it is yours
01:47:40 there are there looks to be like a grille with a white edging at the top of the image and one in the same position but at the bottom of the image do you
01:47:51 but at the bottom of the image do you see those I can see that yes those appear to be air vents in the top left and bottom left of the image do you remember seeing those at all at any time
01:48:04 remember seeing those at all at any time do you think at the night of the fire no before the fire were you aware of those I'm not quite sure to be honest
01:48:18 those I'm not quite sure to be honest maybe I just didn't pay enough of the attention to to realize they're over there on the night of the fire when you were in the bin shoot run were you aware of any air coming into it at all not
01:48:32 of any air coming into it at all not really all I was aware about the short there was a less less smoke than the
01:48:44 there was a less less smoke than the communal area and that probably even helped me to to be where I am today
01:48:55 helped me to to be where I am today and can I take you now back to when you left the 11th floor to with me ran and you told us that you pushed open the stairwell door and you both then went
01:49:06 stairwell door and you both then went into the stairwell do you remember if the stairwell door on the 11th floor closed automatically after you I think
01:49:17 closed automatically after you I think it does
01:49:18 it does do you remember whether it closed on that night
01:49:30 it probably did but I don't remember I didn't I didn't look back do you have any recollection of either yourself or me Ron pushing the door shut not really
01:49:42 me Ron pushing the door shut not really just fine all matter please mr. Lukic
01:49:50 we've all read your written statement and that's going to be published now I'd like to say thank you for the way that you've answered my questions today but
01:50:02 you've answered my questions today but putting aside the content of your statement and also the answers that you've given us is there anything else that you saw or heard on the night of the fire that you think it's important
01:50:14 the fire that you think it's important for the Chairman to know
01:50:28 right now I don't think there isn't anything else what I should add up in regards of the night of the fire but if
01:50:39 regards of the night of the fire but if I can say something else yes in regards of this process of course I hope this processes will not take a long as
01:50:53 processes will not take a long as they're usually taking and also before it's finished I hope some policies in regards of the firefighting with the
01:51:06 regards of the firefighting with the high-rise buildings will be changed just in order to prevent this what happened to us never happen again I hope that will be changed even before
01:51:20 I hope that will be changed even before the process is finished thank you thank you thank you mister if you can thank you once again for coming to give evidence to us today it's been enormous
01:51:31 evidence to us today it's been enormous to help thank you well mr. Lukic I won't drive my thanks to those of mr. Ehlert it's really important to us to hear from those who are in the building at the time because
01:51:42 are in the building at the time because any people like you can describe the conditions that were there and we need to know about that so we're very grateful to you for coming along to give your evidence and if I may say so your
01:51:54 your evidence and if I may say so your account of what went on that evening shows if you displayed great courage when is very impressive thank you for coming along thank you right you're free to go if you'd like to
01:52:17 yes mr. Allen mr. gem before we conclude today I would like to put into the record two statements yes the first relates to the evidence that we heard
01:52:28 relates to the evidence that we heard this morning and the second to the evidence that we've just heard this afternoon yes and if I could do that now with first of all the witness statement of Edward de Farm which I'd like to put
01:52:40 of Edward de Farm which I'd like to put into the record it's the reference is at iws five zeros one six nine and if we go
01:52:52 iws five zeros one six nine and if we go to page 30 of that document
01:53:06 we see that the statement is dates the 15th of May 2018 signed by mr. defendin with a statement of truth there are
01:53:17 with a statement of truth there are exhibits 26 exhibits of the statement there are exhibits II D 1 2 e d 26 and the references for that are IW s 169 page 31 2 I WS 169 page 1 to 7 mr.
01:53:33 page 31 2 I WS 169 page 1 to 7 mr. chairman again just to give the evidence that we heard this morning some context you just like to draw your attention to some parts of the statement but of course the approach that was set out
01:53:46 course the approach that was set out last week still applies this is a statement which will be published in its entirety and will in its entirety stand as evidence before the inquiry but again
01:53:58 as evidence before the inquiry but again just to start with a short summary mr. de fern lived in Granville Tower for 16 years
01:54:03 years he was actively involved with the Grand Hotel residents Association and he's made his Denton enquire about his experiences of the early hours of the 14th of June and if I take you mr.
01:54:17 14th of June and if I take you mr. chairman just a paragraph 9 please and if I take it pick it up from there no in
01:54:28 if I take it pick it up from there no in his statement mr. de furn explains that he was woken up on the night at around 1:10 a.m. by the sound of a smoke alarm from the home of Joe and Samuels Daniel's he lived next door to the
01:54:39 Daniel's he lived next door to the Daniel's they were in flat 135 he was in 1 3 4 and as we all know we heard evidence from Samuel Daniels this morning mr. de furn also says that he
01:54:52 morning mr. de furn also says that he received a call from a fellow resident William Thomson warning him of the fire a few minutes after he woke if I pick it up from paragraph 9 and reads some of that into the record please on the night
01:55:05 that into the record please on the night of the fire I was alone in my flat I went to bed to listen to the radio I started listening to a radio program on radio London Duncan barks it's every night from Sunday to Thursday I know it finishes at
01:55:18 Sunday to Thursday I know it finishes at 1 a.m. in the morning sometimes I fall asleep before it's over but on the night of the fire I was still awake at the end of the program I feel it must have been about
01:55:29 program I feel it must have been about 1:10 a.m. Wednesday 14th June 2017 when I heard the beep beep of my neighbor Jo's smoke alarm I have heard it go off before I didn't stir from my bed as I
01:55:41 before I didn't stir from my bed as I assumed Jo had burnt some toast or something I do have a smoke alarm in my hall which was installed by the London Fire Brigade maybe four or five years ago but I didn't hear my alarm and to
01:55:52 ago but I didn't hear my alarm and to the best of my knowledge it was Jo's alarm that I heard I don't know when the fire alarms in my front will last tested that's not to say that they weren't it's just that I can't remember if or when it
01:56:03 just that I can't remember if or when it might have happened I then heard someone I don't know who shouting with that I got out of my bed put on some pink shorts and went to have a look at what
01:56:14 shorts and went to have a look at what was going on outside I went to the front door of my flat I expected to see my neighbour stood outside his flat but instead as I opened my door a gush of
01:56:26 instead as I opened my door a gush of thick swirling acrid smoke came rushing into my flat it wasn't a small amount of smoke either but loads of smoke the door was open for just two or three seconds
01:56:39 was open for just two or three seconds and only about three inches wide before I instinctively slammed the door shut again I sawed the whole hallway outside my flat was full of black and white
01:56:50 my flat was full of black and white smoke all mixed together my initial instinct was to stay in my flat there had been a sign by the side of the lift which gave fire safety advice which said to remain in your flat I'm not sure if
01:57:03 to remain in your flat I'm not sure if that was in the back of my mind or not however I didn't have time to contemplate what I should do next because my mobile phone started to ring it was Willie Thompson Willie told me to
01:57:15 it was Willie Thompson Willie told me to get out of my flat and by the power and strength of his voice I knew not to argue with him and to just leave I immediately went to my bathroom and dampened a lime green towel with water I
01:57:28 dampened a lime green towel with water I went to the front door and then out of half
01:57:31 half I picked up my keys and my mobile phone on my way out of the flat I later realized that my oyster card and a bank card were in the pocket of the pink shorts I had put on I don't remember
01:57:44 shorts I had put on I don't remember seeing any smoke coming into my flap through the letterbox or around the door I opened the door of my flat stepped outside and shut the door behind me I also wrapped the towel around my mouth
01:57:56 I also wrapped the towel around my mouth and nose holding the towel with one hand behind my head I both shut my door and wrapped the towel around my mouth and nose because that's what you are told to
01:58:07 nose because that's what you are told to do in the event of a fire the smoke was so thick I couldn't see beyond the end of my nose the smoke was aggressive and bellowing against me I couldn't feel any
01:58:19 bellowing against me I couldn't feel any heat I don't remember seeing any flames the smoke seem to be moving but I find it difficult to describe how I held my other hand out in front of me trying to
01:58:30 other hand out in front of me trying to find the emergency exit stairs but I couldn't find them I couldn't see anything if there were any lights on in the hall the smoke was completely blocking any light I have been shown
01:58:42 blocking any light I have been shown some fire and smoke descriptors provided to me by the inquiry and I would definitely describe the smoke I encountered as image II I was now in
01:58:53 encountered as image II I was now in sheer panic I started to use both hands to try and find the way out I was running my hands along the wall but not finding the door I don't recall dropping the towel away
01:59:04 I don't recall dropping the towel away from my face but I think I may have done in my panic to find the way out I started to inhale the smoke I thought to myself man this isn't going to end
01:59:15 myself man this isn't going to end well for me I thought I was about to die just then I felt someone tapping on the right side of my leg I looked down and that's when I realized that the smoke
01:59:27 that's when I realized that the smoke was much thinner on the floor I could see a firefighter lying on the floor he was lying face down across the threshold of the doorway with his legs out in the stairwell I could now see the stairs I
01:59:40 stairwell I could now see the stairs I ran for my life down the stairs I think I was in the hallway side my flat for less than 15 seconds probably more like 5 seconds I don't think I would have survived for 15
01:59:51 think I would have survived for 15 seconds during the building works last year they had books boxed offs and pipes I think I was feeding around that box off bit when the fireman touched me I feel like that boxing in could have
02:00:03 feel like that boxing in could have killed me because I was pouring at it trying desperately to find the far exit when the fireman grabbed me the box sing in impeded my direct line of escape to the stairwell
02:00:14 the stairwell I thought the boxing in was this fire escape door and given how dark it was and in a panic I couldn't work out why it wasn't opening I feel the fireman must have saved me as I was taking my
02:00:26 must have saved me as I was taking my last breaths I think he was lying on the floor and he grabbed me my memory of going down the stairs is patchy I know I could see so it wasn't completely dark
02:00:39 could see so it wasn't completely dark I'm just I'm just going to skip a little bit but I'm gonna just finish with the last part of a paragraph I ran past my next-door neighbor Sam on the stairs I know I passed several firefighters in a couple of floors down I also remember
02:00:52 couple of floors down I also remember passing my disabled neighbor whose name I now know is my hair Kadare from Flex flat 64 on my way down he uses two crutches I should have stopped for him but I was just so scared it was not able
02:01:04 but I was just so scared it was not able to stop running I know he made it out okay because I have seen him since most I don't remember down running down the stairs in the main reception area that part is completely gone from my memory
02:01:16 part is completely gone from my memory all I can say is I ran for my life
02:01:21 miss Gemma I'm gonna stop reading that statement at that point if I can go to the second statement and again same
02:01:33 the second statement and again same point applies that the that statement in its entirety goes into the record it is the statement of Clarita Gavi me I WS
02:01:44 the statement of Clarita Gavi me I WS five zeros 943 if we go to page 8 of that statement
02:01:55 see the statement is dated the 28th of June 2018 it's signed and carries a statement of truth there are no exhibits to the statement miss Garvey me had
02:02:08 to the statement miss Garvey me had lived in Grenville tower since 2003 since sorry I'm sorry do that again I'm sorry about that my era miss Garvey me had lived in the
02:02:19 era miss Garvey me had lived in the tower since 1983 she originally lived with her family in the two-bed flat but had lived in the property alone for three years prior to the fire and that property was flat 75 on floor 10 she was
02:02:33 property was flat 75 on floor 10 she was alone on the night of the 13th of June 2017 and if I could pick it up please at paragraph 7 which is at page 943 - on
02:02:47 paragraph 7 which is at page 943 - on Tuesday 13th of June 2017 I was at home on my own I tend to watch television in the evenings I was sitting in my lounge and looked through the TV channels but
02:02:58 and looked through the TV channels but there was nothing on that night that really caught my interest so I decided to go to bed I remember it was eleven o'clock when I went to bed that night I have a clock on the bedroom wall which I
02:03:09 have a clock on the bedroom wall which I looked at as I was going to bed and I recall that it said that it was 11 o'clock I was tired that night I would normally go to bed later typically in the early hours around 1 o'clock in the
02:03:20 the early hours around 1 o'clock in the morning
02:03:21 morning this was therefore unusual for me I recall that I closed my bedroom door and the window my bedroom was also closed when I went to bed I fell asleep I woke
02:03:32 when I went to bed I fell asleep I woke up suddenly because I heard my smoke alarm his smoke alarm is in the hallway I recall the noise of the smoke alarm waking me up there was no smell of smoke or any visible smoke in my bedroom I got
02:03:46 or any visible smoke in my bedroom I got out of bed and opened my bedroom door the alarm was still making a noise and there was a slight smell of smoke I could not see any smoke but I could smell it I went back to my bedroom put
02:03:58 smell it I went back to my bedroom put the light on and got dressed in leggings and
02:04:01 and I also put on my glasses I came out of my bedroom and went into the lounge I started to open windows in the lounge to get rid of the smell of smoke at this
02:04:12 get rid of the smell of smoke at this point I started to feel panicky this was approximately 1:30 a.m. in the morning I had looked at the clock in the bedroom just before this and saw that it was 1:30 I continued to walk around the flat
02:04:24 1:30 I continued to walk around the flat opening more windows in the lounge and kitchen from my lounge and kitchen windows when I look out of them my view is the rear of Grenfell tower where the playground and school are located as I
02:04:36 playground and school are located as I looked out of the windows I could see lots of people outside and they seemed to be a lot of noise I do not recall seeing any firefighters or police at this stage but as my views the rear of the tower this may explain why I believe
02:04:50 the tower this may explain why I believe most of them would have been at the front of the tower I remember looking out my bedroom window where I could see the flames coming up the corner of the tower the flames seemed to have moved diagonally across the tower and then
02:05:02 diagonally across the tower and then upwards I went to my front door to open it when I opened the door I saw that the communal area outside my flat was pitch black and smoky there was no one else
02:05:13 black and smoky there was no one else there I closed the front door as I felt that I would not be able to get out in those conditions I did not call the emergency services instead I opened bore windows in the flat I could hear people
02:05:25 windows in the flat I could hear people shouting from below get out get out go to the fire exit I also heard people shouting get out the building is going to collapse I decided to ring my son
02:05:36 to collapse I decided to ring my son Darius he lived locally with his wife and children I rang Darius on his mobile phone it went to voicemail I then thought that he was probably asleep because at the time
02:05:47 was probably asleep because at the time I think I left a message on his voicemail but I'm not certain I cannot really recall what I said I think that Darius rang me back shortly afterwards I
02:05:58 Darius rang me back shortly afterwards I cannot say with any certainty whether or not I spoke with him around this time I decided to go to the front of my flat again to see if I could get out I opened
02:06:09 again to see if I could get out I opened the door and the conditions in the communal hallway had worse it was thick with smoke I closed the door quickly and went back to the kitchen and looked out the window I knew my only way out of the tower was through
02:06:21 my only way out of the tower was through my front door I went into the kitchen and I recall seeing a tea towel hanging up in front of me I put water from the tap on this tea towel as I thought I could wet it and then use it to help me
02:06:32 could wet it and then use it to help me get through the smoke in order to wet the tea towel I put down my mobile phone and I never picked it up again it was left in my kitchen as I immediately went back to my front door
02:06:43 immediately went back to my front door with the wet tea towel to try and get out as I walked this time through my hallway to the front door of my flat I picked up my jacket before getting to the front door I was feeling frightened
02:06:55 the front door I was feeling frightened and I was worried about the smoke I thought about going into my bedroom to collect my passport on my purse but I decided not to waste time and to get out as soon as I could I had the wet tea towel with me I
02:07:08 I had the wet tea towel with me I started to see what I would describe as light smoke in my hallway and coming from my lounge area at this point I recall thinking that I had made a mistake and I should not have opened the
02:07:19 mistake and I should not have opened the windows the alarm was still sounding in my hallway I was thinking how I needed to get out of my flat immediately I made my way to the front door and opened the
02:07:30 my way to the front door and opened the front door I had put the wet tea towel over my mouth to try and help me breathe I had one hand holding the tea towel in place and I was using my other hand to feel my way to the door that leads to
02:07:41 feel my way to the door that leads to the stairwell I would describe the conditions in the communal landing outside my flat as pitch-black I could see nothing at all however as I had
02:07:52 see nothing at all however as I had lived in the building for so long I knew where I had to go from my front door to get to the fire exit the pieces of the stairs therefore I was able to feel my
02:08:03 stairs therefore I was able to feel my way through the communal landing to get to that door I think I left my front door open and it does not close by itself I think the self closing was broken and I never got around to getting
02:08:14 broken and I never got around to getting it fixed I also could not hear anyone else there was no noise in the communal landing as far as I recall I also do not recall the Kim landon being hot but there was thick
02:08:26 landon being hot but there was thick smoke and i can recall the smell of the smoke i would describe it as a bad smell and i felt my throat was suffocating as i was trying to escape it was very challenging to get through and very
02:08:37 challenging to get through and very disorientating it was very scary and it was very difficult to find my way to the stairwell by this point I was very distressed I managed to feel my way to the fire exit door to the stairwell
02:08:49 the fire exit door to the stairwell which is to the left of my flak door the fire exit doors were closed I think it closes automatically the door is very heavy and I was struggling to open it
02:09:00 heavy and I was struggling to open it with just one hand as the other hand was holding the tea towel over my mouth as I pulled the fire door open I could see the stairwell I could see the conditions were different
02:09:11 could see the conditions were different from the communal landing area that I had been struggling to get through the electric lights were on there was a little smoke but not like before there was no heat in the stairwell I recall
02:09:22 was no heat in the stairwell I recall seeing two adult males coming down the stairs just as I was opening the door I would describe them as big tall men the stairs were not busy and I do not recall seeing any other residents I thought
02:09:34 seeing any other residents I thought everyone else must have got out already the two men that I'd seen coming down were not people that I was personally familiar with one of the men walked up to me and picked me up and placed me
02:09:46 to me and picked me up and placed me over his shoulder he did this before I had said a word to him although I was clearly in a distressed state as he carried me I was faced down and I did not I do not know how my glasses did not
02:09:58 not I do not know how my glasses did not come off I recall him saying don't worry we have got you that was the first thing he said to me he also said it's okay several times to reassure me as we went down the stairs as we went down the
02:10:11 down the stairs as we went down the stairs I closed my eyes I kept my eyes shut most of the way down and I would only open them occasionally I recalled at one point that we stopped and he put me down for a moment before picking me
02:10:22 me down for a moment before picking me up again and carrying me down the rest of the way I recall opening my eyes briefly at another point I think near the bottom of the stairs and seeing firefighters who
02:10:33 the stairs and seeing firefighters who were on their way up the stairs I do not know what time or what floor we were on at that time on another occasion when I opened my eyes I recall seeing a hose lying flat on the floor it was not
02:10:45 hose lying flat on the floor it was not connected to anything when we got to the bottom of the stairs we made our way out of the front entrance the man put me down on the ground before we left I do not recall anyone from the emergency
02:10:56 not recall anyone from the emergency services coming to see me or help me and that mr. Chen is where I'll pause with that statement if I may right thank you very much
02:11:08 that's the work of today mr. Chen there are two witnesses listed for tomorrow and with your position we if we can start at 10 o'clock with the first gentleness good well thank you very much
02:11:22 gentleness good well thank you very much well in that case we'll break now for today and we will resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning good thank you very much