Survivor testimony from Building Safety Representatives (residents) describing their evacuation experiences, encounters with firefighters, and observations of smoke and fire conditions in stairwells.
00:00:09 good morning everyone I apologize for the quality of my voice is not much we left at the moment but I shall go on whispering as best I can into the microphone well welcome to
00:00:20 into the microphone well welcome to today's hearing we're going to hear further witnesses further evidence from those who present in the tower at the time of the fire yes good morning mr. chairman and can I
00:00:32 yes good morning mr. chairman and can I with your permission call our first witness of the day Marin Makonnen yes thank you
00:00:59 I swear by Almighty God I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole
00:01:11 be the truth the whole truth the whole truth thank you very much indeed sit down and make yourself comfortable yes mister Thank You mr. Chanin comfortable
00:01:24 mister Thank You mr. Chanin comfortable yes
00:01:25 yes good morning could you give the inquiry your full name please Mehran Makonnen miss Makana and the first thing I want to do is to thank you
00:01:36 first thing I want to do is to thank you for coming to give evidence today we're already very grateful for the witness statement that you've given us but also for the your willingness to come and continue to help the inquiry in this way
00:01:51 everyone here does understand how difficult it will be to have to go back and relive the events of the night it is
00:02:02 and relive the events of the night it is important that as you give your evidence - take your time don't feel under any pressure and if you need a break at any time please say so and we'll stop
00:02:13 time please say so and we'll stop hopefully I'll try and keep my questions short and straightforward but if I do ask you something that sounds confusing or that you can't understand then just let me know and I'll put it in a
00:02:25 let me know and I'll put it in a different way okay
00:02:28 that you're already aware that the focus of the questions today is going to be about the night of the fire and that's what I'm going to ask you about its what
00:02:39 what I'm going to ask you about its what the inquiry has been calling phase one okay what I want to do first let's go through some formalities and we first thing we have to do is just look at your witness statement please
00:02:50 witness statement please it's iws five zeroes nine one two miss woman this is the first page of the
00:03:01 woman this is the first page of the statement that you've provided for this inquiry
00:03:04 inquiry I think you've you've got it there on the monitor in front of you but also if you need it you should find a bundle just in front of you on the table and it'll be a tab one could we go to page
00:03:17 it'll be a tab one could we go to page 20 of the statement please
00:03:28 we can see from page 20 of the statement is dated for 23rd of May 2018 and it's sign could you confirm that that's your signature yes it is and have you had a
00:03:40 signature yes it is and have you had a chance to read your statement recently yes I have can you confirm that the contents of the statements are true yes they are what we
00:03:51 statements are true yes they are what we now need to do is to put the exhibits - the statement into the record now if I just explain that these are photographs and a video taken on the night and outside the tower from this purpose we
00:04:04 outside the tower from this purpose we don't actually need to put any of them up I just want to read it into the record they are collectively your exhibit mm1 and the references are iws 4
00:04:16 exhibit mm1 and the references are iws 4 4 9 i WS 4 5 1 I WS 4 5 2 and I WS 4 5 3 now before I go on what I would also just like to make clear for the benefit
00:04:30 just like to make clear for the benefit of everyone here is that as we go through we may need to look at some photographs that were taken of the tower including after the fire and I mentioned
00:04:43 including after the fire and I mentioned that now because we appreciate that photographs of that sort can be distressing to some people and so I hope everyone is aware of that possibility can I start with some background please
00:04:57 can I start with some background please if we go back to the first page of your statement and can we expand paragraphs 3 & 4 please
00:05:10 now in June 2017 your home was flat 163 on the 19th floor of control tower is that right yes that's correct and how
00:05:23 that right yes that's correct and how long had you been living in that flat since 2012 and by June 2017 your family was you your partner and your two
00:05:35 was you your partner and your two children that's correct and is it right that you you had two that were you have two daughters yes that's correct and one of them at that time was age six yes and one was age four
00:05:46 yes and one was age four yes did you have a tendency for the flat Tennessee yes yes I was a tenant and and who was your who was that tendency with Tim well Kensington and Chelsea thank
00:06:03 Tim well Kensington and Chelsea thank you um can we now move please we're going to jump around a little bit in your statement but I just want to take you to paragraphs 75 and 76 which are on page 12 of the
00:06:18 75 and 76 which are on page 12 of the statement
00:06:32 I won't read the paragraphs out but just to give you some context miss Makonnen what you're talking about here is your knowledge of the state policy in the tower and also fire safety notices yes I
00:06:47 tower and also fire safety notices yes I want to show you a photograph now which is a photograph that's taken after the fire occurred and so I'm just going to
00:06:59 fire occurred and so I'm just going to give a specific warning for anyone in the room if if they want to leave at this point but I think mr. chairman reserving the room there's no one has taken that opportunity so can we have
00:07:11 taken that opportunity so can we have please be la 4 zeros 2 4 1 6
00:07:20 can we rotate it please
00:07:28 if I could explain to you miss McConnell this is a photograph of a notice that was cited between the lifts on floor three so it's a different floor from the one that you lived on but in your
00:07:40 one that you lived on but in your statement you say I had also read a notice next to the lift which was in English only and it stated there was a stay put policy in the tower and explained the policy is this the notice
00:07:53 explained the policy is this the notice that you remember seeing yes do you remember seeing a notice like this between the lifts on your floor oh my oh yes now we know from other witnesses and
00:08:04 yes now we know from other witnesses and other evidence that most people when they came into the tower on a normal day would get into the lift on the ground floor do you remember seeing a notice by the lifts on the
00:08:15 seeing a notice by the lifts on the ground floor I don't remember
00:08:23 we go back please to your statement again to page 12 and can we have paragraph 78
00:08:51 if we just look at that statement please mr. Kannan what you say is on the Saturday before the fire a firefighter came to my flat and check the smoke alarm in the hallway of our flat we just
00:09:03 alarm in the hallway of our flat we just come home with the girls and both Johannes and I were in and out of our bedroom sorting the girls out whilst the firefighter was in the hallway he did not test the smoke alarms instead he pointed to the light on the alarm in the
00:09:14 pointed to the light on the alarm in the hallway and told me and my partner that the light confirmed that the alarm was connected to the main system he did not check the smoke alarm in the kitchen the firefighter also informed me during this
00:09:27 firefighter also informed me during this visit that there was a state policy in the tower the firefighter explained to me that this meant that we should remain in our flat in the event of a fire in the tower unless the fire was in our
00:09:39 the tower unless the fire was in our flat they also advised me not to use the lifts during a fire so if we take that in stages was this firefighter the only firefighter you saw on that day he's the
00:09:53 firefighter you saw on that day he's the one who came into the flat but there was also another firefighter out in the lobby I think was two of them I remember and did you see what the firefighter in the lobby was doing I'm not completely
00:10:06 the lobby was doing I'm not completely sure no did the firefighter tell you which fire station he was from no I don't remember that did you he give you a name or anything
00:10:17 did you he give you a name or anything at all or probably but I don't remember and did he tell you why he was visiting to check the smoke alarms and did he say where he was going to be checking some
00:10:29 where he was going to be checking some alarms um I don't remember that but he just walked into the flat as soon as he got into the hallway in the corridor he noticed the smoke alarm and they just
00:10:42 noticed the smoke alarm and they just looked up and pointed I said yes the neck to do that means that's what I remember and so was it just a spontaneous visit he just turned up outside yeah yes I believe because we
00:10:53 outside yeah yes I believe because we didn't have any notice before that to say they were coming or anything there was a knock on the door and we just let them in
00:11:02 and you say he told you about the light in relation to the hallway smoke alarm did he say anything about the kitchen smoke along no and it's just so that we
00:11:13 smoke along no and it's just so that we can be clearing your flat were those the two smoke alarms you had yes there was one in the kitchen one in the hall yes now if we take it there by that
00:11:24 yes now if we take it there by that Saturday yeah you were aware of the notice that was by the lifts yes you also had had advice haven't you in the past from the TMO about there being a staple policy is that right yes and
00:11:38 a staple policy is that right yes and you then had the information from the firefighter yes now we'll come to what you the action you took on the night of the fire in a moment but did any of this
00:11:50 the fire in a moment but did any of this have any influence on what you did on the night of the fire I mean even though I knew their devices to stay put I just
00:12:01 I knew their devices to stay put I just want to point out as well like from the TMO it was I wasn't informed normally it was always me asking because I was never completely happy with the stay-put policy so that's why even the
00:12:12 stay-put policy so that's why even the firefighter that came on Saturday I asked him what do you think we should do in case of a fire living on the 19th floor the same with that him I was always asking and they gave me the same answer I was never
00:12:24 gave me the same answer I was never happy with the answer always made me feel uncomfortable to stay in my flat no and there's a on the 19th floor known that they were flying the building so that day I didn't take the advice so I
00:12:35 that day I didn't take the advice so I decided to leave and what you say it was you were uncomfortable because you were 19th year so what was it particularly about where you were that made you concerned I guess because we only have
00:12:48 concerned I guess because we only have one stairwell very confined I've always noticed there's no ventilation that stairwell if I thought about in case smoke got in there as well because it's something that always worried me and I
00:12:59 something that always worried me and I thought about we get into the stairwell of the smoke we won't be able to leave I know we can't use the lift during fire and being so high up I know there's no
00:13:10 and being so high up I know there's no way a ladder reach that fire up to rescue us so it's always a thought I had from the day I moved in it was my concern being up so high with young children so those are my
00:13:23 high with young children so those are my toys
00:13:25 toys thank you very much can I take you back to your statement just take you back down to paragraph 81 please if I just
00:13:44 down to paragraph 81 please if I just draw your attention to the first couple of sentences in that paragraph you say I know that the communal fire alarm did not go off on the fire night of the fire
00:13:56 not go off on the fire night of the fire I had always believed there was a communal fire alarm in the tower as I had heard it once in 2013 before the refurbishment the FIR Bishop works in the towers started we were out when the
00:14:09 the towers started we were out when the alarm in 2013 had gone off and we only heard it still going when we returned home to the tower it was a loud standard alarm noise and there were several fire engines outside the fire brigade
00:14:21 engines outside the fire brigade informed us it was a false alarm when we arrived back in the building I never heard it go off again after 2013 even on the night of the fire that destroyed the building so from that experience you
00:14:35 building so from that experience you could say that in 2013 there was a a communal fire alarm that you could hear yes that's right yes and was it one that you could hear throughout the building yeah we heard it from on the street who was outside coming home we've been out -
00:14:48 was outside coming home we've been out - coming home that's when we heard it was already on always by a Grand Funk Railroad when we heard it we went no even near the building it was very loud
00:15:01 even near the building it was very loud we obviously know and you cover this in your Center there was a refurbishment of your Tower yeah did anyone tell you that a communal alarm system had been fitted after the
00:15:12 alarm system had been fitted after the refurbishment no
00:15:17 I just want now to ask you a few questions about your flat in June 2017 okay and and to do that if I could take
00:15:29 okay and and to do that if I could take you down to the next page on your statement page 14 and let's look at paragraph 82
00:15:43 and again miss McConnell I won't read it out to you but I'll just try and summarize it but in that paragraph you refer to concerns over your front door
00:15:55 refer to concerns over your front door where you provided with a new front door as part of the refurbishment No so this was the front door that you'd had before when I moved in yeah and you
00:16:08 had before when I moved in yeah and you say in this paragraph that it was missing the automatic door closing mechanism which meant it did not close shut automatically after being opened and it was very light taking you to June
00:16:23 and it was very light taking you to June 2017 was the door still missing the automatic door closing mechanism at that time yes and you say it didn't shut automatically what would you have to do
00:16:35 automatically what would you have to do to make sure that the door was properly shut if I was going out then I would have to pull it shut and was it a case of having to pull it hard no it was
00:16:46 of having to pull it hard no it was quite late it wasn't hard no again if we jump a little bit forward in your statement and go to page 16 please
00:17:03 paragraph 96
00:17:17 again I'm not going to read the whole paragraph out but in this paragraph what you're dealing with is a concern in relation to gaps around the windows and
00:17:29 relation to gaps around the windows and you say that we had drafts coming in through the gaps around all of the windows after they were replaced and on really windy days you could hear a whistling sound inside our flat and what
00:17:42 whistling sound inside our flat and what you explained then is that right and the contractors came in and sealed the gap but you also and that's in the next paragraph if we look at 97 and on the
00:17:56 paragraph if we look at 97 and on the next page please what what you say is that you had to use sellotape to block and stop the draft in my bedroom and in my daughter's bedroom again taking you
00:18:12 my daughter's bedroom again taking you back to June 2017 where there still gaps around the windows in your flat at that time yes we have please reference m ET
00:18:26 time yes we have please reference m ET three zeros one to five nine three and go to page 12 of that
00:18:40 if I could just explain this diagram to you miss Makonnen it's a outline of the layout of the fourth floor as you can see but that would match the layout of
00:18:55 see but that would match the layout of the higher floors including the 19th floor where you lived so if we could expand on flat free in the bottom left-hand corner please
00:19:17 that would because it's a flat free that would approximate you or match the layout of your own flat one six three do you follow that yeah now what we can see is that the
00:19:31 yeah now what we can see is that the windows on that diagram in each of the two bedrooms have been marked with a horizontal blue line so can you see there are two windows one for each bedroom yes and then you've got four
00:19:43 bedroom yes and then you've got four windows on the two sides of the living room and one in the kitchen yes now just so that we can be sure with that that match the number of windows that you had
00:19:54 match the number of windows that you had in flat 163 yes now can you using that and taking yourself back to June 2017 can you identify which windows had gaps
00:20:07 can you identify which windows had gaps around them almost all of them and all of them did but the one in the kitchen was the worst and the and the and there
00:20:19 was the worst and the and the and there wasn't the bedroom let's take that in stages now you've got the one in the kitchen can you describe what the problem was with the kitchen window with
00:20:30 problem was with the kitchen window with the kitchen window after they've completed their furbish meant the I mean they've done the windows there was a lot of draft coming in a lot of wind was coming in and there was a lot of
00:20:41 coming in and there was a lot of whistling noise and I went to check around the window and at the bottom of the window ledge there was a big big gap it wasn't a tiny gap whose I couldn't
00:20:54 it wasn't a tiny gap whose I couldn't literally put my hands through it and they had to come and their complaint they came but they did just who sealed it with foam with the foam kind of
00:21:05 it with foam with the foam kind of expanding foam kind of material and the sealant and then even after that it was never sealed properly I can still feel drafts a lot more drafts as well so
00:21:17 drafts a lot more drafts as well so again if we focus on June June of 2017 so you've got a window that's been sealed yeah the gap has been
00:21:28 sealed yeah the gap has been the foam has been put into the gap that you identified it's been sealed was that a window in which you had to use sellotape the one I - you sell it apes that bedroom side
00:21:39 apes that bedroom side okay well we'll come to the bedroom okay let's stick to the kitchen and understand these are gaps underneath the window kitchen had gaps underneath the bedrooms
00:21:50 bedrooms they had drafts coming in from the side of the windows of the frame the hole the gaps wasn't very big but on a windy day you can really feel the breeze coming in
00:22:02 you can really feel the breeze coming in he's still really cold that's where I put the sinner tapes thank you yeah so going back to the kitchen what would the drafts like in 2017 in
00:22:15 what would the drafts like in 2017 in the kitchen it wasn't still drafty I still draft it wasn't as bad you can only feel it on windy days I suppose but there was still drafts coming in and again just so that
00:22:29 drafts coming in and again just so that we can be clear on those windy days you know where were the drafts coming in on how can I on the frame of the windows so the bottom part of the frame and on the side of the frame all the windows
00:22:41 side of the frame all the windows actually had draft coming in on the side of the frames all the windows but the one in the kitchen was a bit more and the bedroom was a bit stronger as well
00:22:53 the bedroom was a bit stronger as well and you told us a few moments ago that you had to put sellotape yeah in the bedrooms because it's difficult to sleep when this drafts coming in sometimes we
00:23:04 when this drafts coming in sometimes we had a very warm actually hot warm flat generally is very hot so you can really feel the breeze coming in and it's very difficult to sleep we need further cold air in your face all the time so that's
00:23:16 air in your face all the time so that's why I put the sella tips in the bedroom and was that still what you were doing in in June 2017 it was like that the Senate apes yeah okay I told you we
00:23:29 Senate apes yeah okay I told you we would jump around your statement so we're going to jump back to page 11 sits it's a document director it's I WS 9 1 12 11 please
00:23:48 and if we could just look at paragraph 68
00:24:08 what you've said in that statement this enough this paragraph miss McCullen is I started to notice problems with the electricity particularly in the six months leading up to the fire I was
00:24:20 months leading up to the fire I was replacing the light bulbs in the flat every few weeks that's in your flat and
00:24:31 every few weeks that's in your flat and obviously there is a communal area on each floor isn't there where the lifts are yes what were the lights like arm in that area did you have noticed any
00:24:43 that area did you have noticed any problems with those not in the Camino era no in your statement and we won't go back to it we can look at it if you if
00:24:55 back to it we can look at it if you if you need us to but you mentioned that when you first moved into the flat there were problems with water pressure yes again taking you to 2017 were you
00:25:07 again taking you to 2017 were you experiencing water problems with water pressure at that time whilst they've changed normal was the new boilers fitted actually we had a little bit more pressure and so that wasn't an issue
00:25:22 pressure and so that wasn't an issue anymore for long
00:25:30 thank you what I'd like to do now is just take you to the 13th of June you happy to continue yes thank you we have
00:25:44 happy to continue yes thank you we have page two of the statement please and paragraphs 9 to 12
00:26:03 in this part of your statement miss Makonnen you've described the early part of the evening and you say that in paragraph ten you say it was a normal
00:26:14 paragraph ten you say it was a normal evening as far as I was concerned so you and your partner you and your daughter's got home around 5:00 or 6:00 that night you stayed home all evening and your partner was at work that evening is that
00:26:26 partner was at work that evening is that right yes and you say in paragraph eleven the lights in our hall where my bedroom are buzzing and flickering that evening but this was something which had
00:26:38 evening but this was something which had been going on for at least a couple of months and I did not think anything of it now on the 13th of June what was the
00:26:50 it now on the 13th of June what was the temperature like in the communal area on the 19th floor on the 13th of June sorry I'm going to ask that question again I apologize taking you that that's that evening you'd come home with your
00:27:02 evening you'd come home with your daughters you remember what the temperature was like in the communal area it's warm like always summer days so it was no different than earlier days that no did you ever find the
00:27:14 that no did you ever find the temperature in that area uncomfortable not really no well you were where of any system on that floor to keep the communal area called there was a vent on
00:27:28 communal area called there was a vent on this next to our door actually on the wall sometimes you can hear it and sometimes you don't and when you did
00:27:39 sometimes you don't and when you did hear it what sort of sound did it make
00:27:43 like a fan kind of sound did you ever hear the sound of fans from higher above your floor at all no
00:28:01 could we turn now to page three please I WS 9 1 12 3 and let's look at paragraphs 14 and 15
00:28:24 you say that the the girls and I were fast asleep when I received a telephone call from my aunt he walked at approximately 1:30 a.m. which woke me up and that's your aunt he watched Edna
00:28:37 and that's your aunt he watched Edna chew is that right yes and she lived as you explained there in the tower but on the fifth floor in flat 26 yes now you
00:28:48 the fifth floor in flat 26 yes now you say in your statement that it was approximately 1:30 a.m. I think now I know it's 125 125 and well let's take that in stage it's just when you made
00:29:01 that in stage it's just when you made your statement you said it was 130 so what would how did you know what time it was I checked my phone a few days after
00:29:12 was I checked my phone a few days after the fire checked my phone log but then I kept forgetting but eventually I remembered it 125 should it be 120 for
00:29:23 remembered it 125 should it be 120 for one there so if we just clarify that for the record the you're saying that it you now think
00:29:34 the you're saying that it you now think that the call came at 125 yeah having having looked at your own phone records your phone yeah thank you what you say in paragraph 14 is that
00:29:45 what you say in paragraph 14 is that your aunt told you not to panic but there was a fire in the tower and that you should get out of the tower as quickly as possible yeah did he want to tell you where the
00:29:56 yeah did he want to tell you where the fire was
00:29:57 fire was no and you would have been in your bedroom at that time yes did you yourself see any signs of the fire no and did you look out of the window to see if you can see anything no so can we
00:30:10 see if you can see anything no so can we take it from that was there any smoke in your flat at all at that time no
00:30:18 what you can go on to say is that you woke the girls up left the flat straightaway yes and you were in your pajamas you had your phone and that's all that you took with you is that right yes and you
00:30:31 with you is that right yes and you walked out of the flat and you closed the door behind you again just help us with this what did you what did you have to do to close your door actually I ran
00:30:42 to do to close your door actually I ran out I went halfway doesn't the left that when I ran out the door was left open it doesn't shine it so and so I ran back again and pulled the door shut so you're clear in your
00:30:55 the door shut so you're clear in your mind that when you left your home the door was shut yes we look please at paragraph 16
00:31:16 and if I read that I came out onto my landing with my daughters and I could see like smoke on the landing my neighbor neighbor Amal was also on the landing with her relative we both spoke
00:31:28 landing with her relative we both spoke at the same time said there is a fire I told a mile that I knew about the fire and that we needed to get out a mal ran back into her flat she has a daughter and I presume she went back for her yes
00:31:41 and I presume she went back for her yes now again taking that in stages when you came out onto the landing with the lights than the landing on yes and you say that you could see light smoke how
00:31:54 say that you could see light smoke how soon after coming onto the landing did you notice smoke as soon as I opened my front door I noticed there was a light smoker and what could you see through the smoke yes can you help us with what
00:32:08 the smoke yes can you help us with what color it was very light gray almost of whitish so would one way of described me
00:32:19 whitish so would one way of described me or comparing would be like cigarette smoke yeah but it was visible - yes was it in any particular part of the landing her leg was all over it was in my view
00:32:31 her leg was all over it was in my view anyway did you see where the smoke was coming from from home did to have any effect on you or your daughters no and
00:32:45 effect on you or your daughters no and before we leave that paragraph of you is it right that where you mention your neighbor Ahmad is that Amal ammidon who lived in flat 166 that's right here
00:32:59 and a mile went back into her flat the last time I see I I remember his running back really fast into back into her flat and did she leave the flat door open and
00:33:12 and did she leave the flat door open and she came out there have flat door was wide open yeah I'll take that since ages again but when when you've when when she was out on the landing was her flat door yes I don't yes and then she went back
00:33:25 yes I don't yes and then she went back into the flat is that right yes you did and where did her realm or did her relative she was just standing then and when I headed towards the staircase you followed me she was right behind me well
00:33:37 followed me she was right behind me well before we look at your evidence on the stairwell can I ask you one last question about the landing area and it's this you'd obviously come home earlier
00:33:49 this you'd obviously come home earlier that night with your daughters and now you're out in the landing area of you and you've noticed smoke did you notice any difference in the temperature of the landing area compared to before I don't
00:34:02 landing area compared to before I don't remember temperature no well let's take a look now in paragraph 17 on the same page please
00:34:18 and as you've just told us a few moments ago a miles relative had remained on the landing and then started to following you and your children can you describe that relative at all do you remember
00:34:30 that relative at all do you remember anything about her she had a job one like a job that's why I can remember
00:34:38 know when you two go to the stairs you have to go through a door is that right yes and do you remember whether you had to open that door well I remember opening that door and
00:34:51 well I remember opening that door and when you stepped into the stairwell what happened to that door I'm not sure because a mass relative was behind me so I don't know I can't be hundred percent
00:35:02 I don't know I can't be hundred percent sure but normally it does shut it does close automatically back on be sure was it the case that you just came through
00:35:14 it the case that you just came through the stairwell and start without windows yes as you were moving down stairwell I'm walking down did you feel any sensation of air blowing on your face at
00:35:26 sensation of air blowing on your face at all I don't know did you notice any smoke in the stairwell when you first exited from floor 19 yes those thought that light gray smoke again so there was
00:35:39 that light gray smoke again so there was great smoke on the stairwell yes and was that immediately after you went through that door yes I noticed this trail where yeah was it any different to
00:35:50 trail where yeah was it any different to the smoke that you'd seen on the landing
00:35:56 maybe this one is not slightly darker maybe more clear gray smoke from the stairwell so I think game but you said that the smoke you've seen in the
00:36:07 that the smoke you've seen in the landing area was white to gray yeah right yeah and this was more like gray but you can still see through it it's not dark at all but like like gray smoke and how much of it was there compared to
00:36:21 and how much of it was there compared to what you'd encountered on the landing little bit more little not too much but just a little bit more and did you can you
00:36:29 you remember whereabouts it was on that on that I know that well when you first got out I noticed it straightaway as I went into this air well and going down as
00:36:42 into this air well and going down as well stairwell and you've told us you came through the stairwell door into the
00:36:53 came through the stairwell door into the stairwell and there was the smoke didn't have any effect on you or your daughters know that moment no was there any difference in temperature between the the landing and the stairwell I don't
00:37:05 the landing and the stairwell I don't recall that I don't think so as you're starting to go down this stairwell towards the ground floor did you hear
00:37:18 towards the ground floor did you hear the sound of any fans at all I'd remember fans no say you're walking down from the 19th floor with your daughters
00:37:30 from the 19th floor with your daughters and with their mouths relative were you aware of anyone else walking down the stairwell at the same time yes there was few people in the stairwell a few people below us a few people as soon as I
00:37:43 below us a few people as soon as I entered the stairwell there's already people walk above me I can see coming down and there's already few people walking down below me as well so we saw joined in the middle back I'd remember
00:37:54 joined in the middle back I'd remember who I can't be precise on how many as well but you did have a sense of people above you and below yes all making their way yeah yes
00:38:08 if I go back to paragraph 17 and we just I'll continue I'll read out the rest of it we had not gone far down the stairs
00:38:19 it we had not gone far down the stairs though I do not remember which floor we'd reached when we met a group of approximately ten people on the stairwell they all seemed to be other residents of the tower some one below us shouted out go back go back the group
00:38:33 shouted out go back go back the group including me my two girls and a male's relative all started moving back up the stairs ie up the tower don't appreciate
00:38:48 stairs ie up the tower don't appreciate that you know that that's the time when you were making your witness statement but thinking about it now are you able to help at all with where you were when you met this group of 10 people on the stairwell those I met them
00:39:01 people on the stairwell those I met them I remember people as soon as I went on to the stairwell from from the 19th floor that's when I noticed those people from the beginning you all start going
00:39:12 from the beginning you all start going down the stairwell and then I don't know how far we went down and we had go back go back
00:39:20 go back man's voice quite loud and then we all started running back up the stairs it's the same ten people I saw from the beginning basically so what what it wasn't was you walking down and then
00:39:32 wasn't was you walking down and then coming across a group of ten people know who sort of joined together as soon as I left my floor so if we we can get the picture right you joined the movement of
00:39:44 picture right you joined the movement of people all going down yes and you think that that there are about ten people yeah it's just a guess just to say there was a few people but I can't be sure thank you and then you heard a man's
00:39:56 thank you and then you heard a man's voice saying go back go back yeah
00:40:03 did that voice come from lower down yes and you could you see who it was no and did anyone explain why you had to go
00:40:14 did anyone explain why you had to go back no you've told us that when you first came into the stairwell you you came across smoke yeah as you're going down and before you hear go back go back
00:40:25 down and before you hear go back go back did did the conditions in the stairwell change at all at that time no no so when you heard go back go back same sort of condition and were you able
00:40:38 same sort of condition and were you able to look try and look further down the stairwell to see whether there wasn't a worse conditions further down you can't really see further down but mmm you know
00:40:51 really see further down but mmm you know so all it was was this one voice telling you all to go back yeah and did everybody except that advice yes we all run back up and you've just said we all
00:41:02 run back up and you've just said we all run back up he was though it was yeah
00:41:09 how many flights of stairs it was very difficult to remember but we didn't go far down maybe we went down three floors or something so we could have been on the 16th floor 15 floor something like
00:41:22 the 16th floor 15 floor something like that it wasn't far enough wasn't too far that would wind down future flights anyway and then we had to go back to go back and know so start making our way back up again let's look at paragraph 18
00:41:37 back up again let's look at paragraph 18 of your statement
00:41:44 you begin that paragraph by saying I got to the top of the stairs on my floor and it was it the case that you reached your floor again and just decided to stop for
00:41:56 floor again and just decided to stop for a moment yes and when you reach floor 19 can you remember if the door from the stairwell back into the landing was open or shut can you remember if there was
00:42:08 or shut can you remember if there was anything coming through it I don't remember that no now there's you you
00:42:20 remember that no now there's you you weren't as you've explained the only person who started walking back up can you remember what happened to the other residents who were also walking back up I have no idea I don't know where they
00:42:33 I have no idea I don't know where they went
00:42:33 went I don't know where but they went back to the flat so whether they went further up sadly I just can't see anybody do you have any recollection of people walking
00:42:44 have any recollection of people walking past you on floor 19 and continuing up the building by the time I got to my floor 19 I don't remember seeing anybody else
00:42:51 else so can you remember what happened to mouths relative I have no idea I don't know whether she went back in or whether she went further up because I was slower than everybody else because I was
00:43:02 than everybody else because I was carrying my daughter and holding on to my other one so I was so the slowest one so what by the time I reached there was nobody around me so I have no idea where they went
00:43:13 they went so the last time that you saw her miles relative was in the stairwell know me behind Mia and following you behind you and going down yes that's the last time I saw her so you're
00:43:25 that's the last time I saw her so you're on in the stairwell by floor 19 now yeah did you open the door into the landing at all no
00:43:38 let's continue with this paragraph you say I did not want to go back to my flat so I decided to ignore the advice that had been shouted in the stairwell to go back up and I headed back down the
00:43:50 back up and I headed back down the stairs with my daughters there was no one in the stairwell at this point as we were walking down the stairs the smoke was becoming thicker and thicker it was dense and dark gray but I could see
00:44:01 dense and dark gray but I could see through it I was able to breathe without any difficulty can you remember how many flights of stairs you walk down before
00:44:12 flights of stairs you walk down before the smoke started getting thicker and thicker hmm I don't know what floor bet it was more lower so I've probably gone half way down so I would be in the lower
00:44:26 half way down so I would be in the lower floors and lower than then you had been when you first heard someone say go back go back
00:44:39 so this is now the second time you've come down the stairwell isn't it um was there any difference in the conditions in the stairwell on this second journey
00:44:50 in the stairwell on this second journey compared to the first initially it was the same but as I said as I went further lower low lower floors I noticed some of the doors were slightly open
00:45:02 the doors were slightly open no the smoke first I noticed the smoke was getting bit darker gray and then I said I went further down I noticed some of the doors were slightly open because those fire hoses going through them and
00:45:16 those fire hoses going through them and I could see a dark really really dark thicker smoke coming up from above the door into the stairwell well let's take that in stage this place because if we
00:45:28 that in stage this place because if we look at your paragraph 19
00:45:34 this is where you deal with coming across a female firefighter on the way down how did you know that it was a
00:45:46 down how did you know that it was a female firefighter you feel weird I don't know I don't know why from day one I thought was a female fire but I can't be hundred percent sure was that the first firefighter you'd come across that's the one I remember yeah um
00:45:58 that's the one I remember yeah um remember she was wearing a mask on her face no no mask on her face no and was
00:46:09 face no no mask on her face no and was she on her own yes you say that she was dragging a fire hose up the stairs yeah
00:46:21 dragging a fire hose up the stairs yeah but you finished that paragraph by saying we were able to walk past her without any difficulty she was by the stairwell door on the landing now again thinking about it do you have any recollection of which floor the
00:46:33 any recollection of which floor the firefighter may have been on I can't I have no idea what all but I think I was lower down definitely but I can remember
00:46:45 now you've said she was dragging a firehose up the stairs and she was by a stairwell dog do you remember if that door was open or closed so slightly open and what
00:46:57 open or closed so slightly open and what could you see anything through the door I can see smoke coming up coming up from the door and what can you describe that smoke please start very dark gray smoke
00:47:11 smoke please start very dark gray smoke and do you think that was the first time that you encountered that's kind of smoke that wasn't the only floor and counted the smoke I don't know if his
00:47:22 counted the smoke I don't know if his before after I saw her thank you well let's look now at the next page paragraph 20
00:47:49 you say as I was coming down the stairs on the lower floors but I do not recall precisely which floors I could see that the stairwell doors leading on to the landings which lead to the flats on each floor were wedged open by the fire hoses
00:48:02 floor were wedged open by the fire hoses passing through them which were coming from the stairwell I saw that the doors been partially opened due to fire hoses coming from the stairs into the landings on each level allowed the smoke to enter
00:48:13 on each level allowed the smoke to enter the stairwell and it was spreading up the stairs higher into the tower did you see any stairwell door wedged open with anything other than a fire hose no and
00:48:30 you say you have a recollection of stairwell doors wedged open how many doors can you remember I remember at least two
00:48:48 and how much smoke was coming through these partially open doors quite a lot I mean it was different smoke because I noticed was much dark again in color
00:49:00 noticed was much dark again in color really dark gray and slightly thick and dense and he was going up I was coming up from the top of that door and it was sort of rising up did the smoke that you
00:49:19 sort of rising up did the smoke that you saw I mean what you've described about the stairwell smoke is it was on that second journey was it was it was darker smoke when I've got to the lower floors
00:49:31 smoke when I've got to the lower floors when I was two laps of making my way down is similar but as I got further down I noticed the smoke yes it was getting darker and the smoke that was coming out of the stairwell was more
00:49:43 coming out of the stairwell was more from the doors into the stairwell was more darker thicker smoke and did that darker thicker smoke have a taste or smell - I don't remember smell or taste
00:49:54 smell - I don't remember smell or taste at all that night did it have any effect on any physical effect on you or your daughter's at that moment no and you've
00:50:05 daughter's at that moment no and you've described this recollection of fire hoses going through doors were you aware of any other firefighters in the area I don't remember any either firefighters
00:50:18 don't remember any either firefighters on the stairwell no an aside from smoke coming through the doors did you see any other signs of fire no no
00:50:34 and on this second journey down which you took all the way down to the ground floor didn't you yes did you come across any other residents making their way
00:50:45 any other residents making their way down door right at the end of I think would be that that you know the fourth floor leading into there's of the new
00:50:56 floor leading into there's of the new built area the new staircase I saw which I know my aunt's neighbor number 25 is that Muneera murmured Mohammed and his
00:51:09 that Muneera murmured Mohammed and his elderly father mr. Mohammed Russell yes that's it and then in his father his elderly father going down slowly and then I walked went up past them that's
00:51:23 then I walked went up past them that's how the only two people I remember
00:51:32 could we look it's on the same page but let's look now please at paragraphs 22 and 23 if we look now paragraph 22
00:51:49 22 and 23 if we look now paragraph 22 misma common carefully considering things now I believe that it only took us approximately 10 minutes to rush out of the tower from the 19th floor but it felt like it took much longer I was
00:52:01 felt like it took much longer I was going down the stairs as fast as I could but I was carrying my youngest daughter on one arm and I had linked my other arm with my eldest daughter I was terrified about tripping over the firehose as we had to walk over them several times as
00:52:13 had to walk over them several times as we were going down the stairs the children were holding on to me tightly as I got to the ground floor of the tower it's about to exit Granville Tower with my children via the fire exit when I heard a firefighter shout loud
00:52:25 when I heard a firefighter shout loud with me to stop he told me not to go out that way as the fire was on that side of the tower and that debris was falling off the sides of the building I was not aware of this at the time and I'm grateful to him for stopping me and my
00:52:37 grateful to him for stopping me and my children from being harmed I just wanted to ask you if possibly feel helped just try and identify where that fire exit is we can understand the layout of ground floor we have please m ET triple zero
00:52:49 floor we have please m ET triple zero one two five nine three and page eight
00:53:04 and can we expand the area that's marked the lower half of the image police Hmong community office and entrance lobby miss
00:53:20 community office and entrance lobby miss McConnell can you see the the space that's labeled atrium yes and we can see that to the right of that as we look at it there's a staircase and there are two
00:53:34 it there's a staircase and there are two exits aren't there there's one in front on the south side and there's one on the east side and you have those two exits yes so which one had you intended to
00:53:47 yes so which one had you intended to leave by which which was the fire exit
00:53:52 coming down the steps would have been the one to my left the end of the stairs to my left thank you I don't have very much more
00:54:04 thank you I don't have very much more questions are you happy to continue yeah we're gonna have a break very soon excuse me anyway but how much longer do see I I think I I will before we need to
00:54:16 see I I think I I will before we need to have a break probably no more than ten minutes for me would you rather have a break now Oh could you carry on for ten minutes I can carry on thank you in your
00:54:29 minutes I can carry on thank you in your statement you've given a detailed account of what happened to you once you've left the tower and I only need to ask you a few questions about that could
00:54:40 ask you a few questions about that could we look please at iws 9 1 to page 7
00:54:53 if you expand paragraph 40 please
00:55:03 now mr. McConnell you're talking there about going to the Rugby Portobello trust and I'll come back to that paragraph in a moment but just to give you some context you explained in your
00:55:18 you some context you explained in your statement that you had called your partner your Honus at work after two o'clock and that's if you need it that's in your paragraph 36 now just help us
00:55:33 in your paragraph 36 now just help us with that how sure are you that that call to him was after 2 o'clock
00:55:40 quite sure yeah and is that from looking at your phone yeah you also say in your statement that you've called your neighbor Jeannette who lived in flat one
00:55:53 neighbor Jeannette who lived in flat one five three a few times once you're outside the tower yes and she eventually called you didn't she to say she misspoke yeah a few times back and forth we called each other few
00:56:04 back and forth we called each other few times now in this paragraph you say we were then told to go to the Rugby Portobello trust by a police officer who took a note of our names and our flats number and you continue at this point I
00:56:19 number and you continue at this point I went to pick up my daughter's from salams house and we went to the Rugby Portobello trust together now I just wanted to ask for your help in just timing this conversation with the police officer so was it after you had made the
00:56:33 officer so was it after you had made the call to your partner that you had this conversation with the police officer
00:56:41 [Music]
00:56:44 I think the police officer who could have been way before I think the police officers took our details on our way to clearing the road actually not portable
00:56:56 clearing the road actually not portable Oh rub people time alone much sooner the police officers took a detail before I spoke to my partner let's deal with it in this way you've come out of the tower
00:57:08 in this way you've come out of the tower and just to help you we we know your exit time was 133 how soon after you had
00:57:19 exit time was 133 how soon after you had left the tower did a police officer take your details just maybe after - because
00:57:35 it depends it what time did that take the video because that was not long after took the clip of that video the pictures well we can use that as a wreck yes so would be maybe 5-10 minutes after
00:57:49 yes so would be maybe 5-10 minutes after that I took a picture of the building and was that the first time that you voted or on your details yes um can you Clara what details were you asked to
00:58:01 Clara what details were you asked to provide they just said well a flat number and how many of us came out and was it you're a police officer who took yes information yes
00:58:22 and can we move forward please page 10 in the statement if we could just expand
00:58:35 in the statement if we could just expand paragraphs 59 and 60 please you begin these two paragraphs with second by saying my daughter's and I were lucky
00:58:46 saying my daughter's and I were lucky enough to have got out of the tower fairly early and but then you continue however I noticed that the girls were coughing for a few days after the fire and I arranged an appointment for them with our GP our GP advised that the
00:58:59 with our GP our GP advised that the girls were coughing as a result of smoke inhalation but it was nothing to worry about and should clear up by itself if I may can I just ask you a few brief questions about that can you describe
00:59:10 questions about that can you describe just what your daughter's symptoms were like in the days after the fire just a lot of coughing all the time did and when you went to the GP did the GP tell
00:59:22 when you went to the GP did the GP tell you what effect the smoke inhalation had had they said most most probably irritated sort of there so they throat area it's just an irritation and they
00:59:36 area it's just an irritation and they said it would clear up after a while and it did how long did it take to clear up probably within a week they stopped coughing and other than the visitors GP
00:59:47 coughing and other than the visitors GP they had no other treatments no no were you affected in any way I don't know I well I was fine I wasn't coughing or anything I guess I was too shocked to think because what happened afterwards
00:59:59 think because what happened afterwards was so tragic and lot of lives were gone that night I thought in comparison I didn't worry too much about that at that moment but I wasn't coughing anything
01:00:12 moment but I wasn't coughing anything okay
01:00:13 okay so if we could have a break at this point just so that I can check with the other lawyers if there's any other questions that we need to ask well will
01:00:25 we'll definitely have a break yes we can help break now I'm sorry it's been a bit later than usual until quarter past eleven I have to ask you please not to
01:00:37 eleven I have to ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence while people and if you go with the action now she'll look after you thank you very much
01:00:52 right 11:15 geez
01:02:04 you
01:13:14 well now mr. Robert have you got some more questions we do mr. chan yes one I'd expected you would could we ask mr. Conlon to come back and then please
01:13:36 I think mr. rabbit has a few more questions if you can manage oh yes thank you miss Chen miss McConnell can I start
01:13:47 you miss Chen miss McConnell can I start off by taking you back to an answer you gave to one of my earlier questions and that is where you said that one of your concerns about the stairwell was that
01:13:58 concerns about the stairwell was that there was no ventilation in the stairwell okay how did you know that there was no ventilation in the stairwell because when I had to use the
01:14:09 stairwell because when I had to use the stairwell in the past when we died we didn't where we didn't have lifts and things like that I've always felt it was slightly warmer I've never felt any sort of Breeze in ease of air movement and
01:14:23 class visually I didn't see any sort of there's no window there's no I've never seen a vent in there I've never noticed anything like that thank you let's go back to your statement then and
01:14:34 let's go back to your statement then and go to paragraph 83 which is on page 14 so I WS 9 1 to 14 please could we expand
01:14:49 so I WS 9 1 to 14 please could we expand 83
01:14:56 one of the other things you mentioned about the staircase and your concerns was that when the lights went out as there were no windows had that happened to you before that the lights had gone
01:15:08 to you before that the lights had gone out in the stairwell when you were using it yes it was completely dark and how soon before of June 2017 did that happen
01:15:19 soon before of June 2017 did that happen mom that's before I don't know maybe here before during the refurbishment grants yeah but on the night itself when
01:15:30 grants yeah but on the night itself when you were making you know you've told us you took two journeys down the stairs what was the lighting like in the stairwell nose normals lit it was lit yeah thank you
01:15:44 just so that we can be clear and it's it when you were making your way down the stairwell on the second occasion in particular did you have did you hear any
01:15:56 particular did you have did you hear any sound that was sounded like a fan at all no it was very quiet I think nothing and did you feel the movement of air at all no can I take you back to paragraph 17
01:16:10 no can I take you back to paragraph 17 please of the statement page three
01:16:27 this is taking you back miss McConnell to your account of someone shouting go back go back and I think my memory is right you told
01:16:39 and I think my memory is right you told us it was a man's voice yes can you describe that person's accent sounds English just clear English accent did
01:16:50 English just clear English accent did you see who it was at all no could you tell anything from from what you heard about who that person was I couldn't
01:17:03 about who that person was I couldn't tell who it was but I assumed at that time it changed everything once we heard to go back he was just on our way down we were panicked but on our way down when we had go back I assumed something
01:17:16 when we had go back I assumed something terrible something worse was happening below us I assumed maybe it's another resident probably seen flames in the stairways who could say go back in terms of a fire you know when there's a fire who could possibly say go back unless
01:17:28 who could possibly say go back unless there's something worse it changed everything that's that's why I remember
01:17:34 and what you've told us is that you you joined the group of people making their way down yes someone shouted go back go back everybody turned and with a lot
01:17:46 back everybody turned and with a lot more panic everybody was rushing up more faster this time even I was more panicked and terrified at that time so just again so that we
01:17:58 at that time so just again so that we can get a sense of what was happening yeah on that first journey down were you moving oh just look fairly not too fast we went running or anything but going down as fast as we can without rushing
01:18:09 down as fast as we can without rushing so much and then when you heard that voice yes it was a bit more panicking more rushing running up the stairs we just didn't know what happened now in the group of people that you described
01:18:22 the group of people that you described being in the stairwell at the same time as you and I appreciate that your memories that once you got back up to floor 19 you couldn't see anyone no but did you recognise anyone else from that
01:18:33 did you recognise anyone else from that group no was there any and did you can you do you have a memory of anyone who was
01:18:40 was lived on your floor being in that group
01:18:45 no you have memory of anyone that you knew who lived in the tower and other flats being in that group I don't remember who they were I've seen I don't know who they were I don't remember
01:18:59 thank you just one for me you've obviously given a detailed witness statement
01:19:10 statement you've patiently answered all the questions that I've put to you today and my last question to you is this above and beyond what you've already given us is there anything else about the events
01:19:22 is there anything else about the events of that night that you would like the Chairman to know basically I just want to point out that part again when we had go back who is all I believe I didn't
01:19:33 go back who is all I believe I didn't see I know I'm as real it was behind me I know I'm I'll run back in to get her daughter that's for sure it is I know who was going down but that go back
01:19:45 who was going down but that go back changed everything I believe we didn't hear that go back those people in the stairwell with me because I know for sure I'm under making it her relative and her daughter didn't make it I know they would have been here
01:19:56 make it I know they would have been here now I think that's where it changed I was going to go back in myself but was that fear I've always had made me feel like you know I'm gonna give it a go and go down every floor to see what's going
01:20:08 go down every floor to see what's going on until I went made my way out so that's where it changed I believe I'm myelin her relative her daughter would have been here if we didn't hear that go back I don't know who else didn't make it that day because of that birth it
01:20:20 it that day because of that birth it changed everything yes thank you Thank You mr. Khan and can I once again thank you for coming to give evidence to us your answers today have been enormously helpful to the work
01:20:32 have been enormously helpful to the work of the inquiry so thank you and I'd also like to thank you it's absolutely vital for us to hear the accounts of people who were inside the building at the time of the fire because only you can
01:20:44 of the fire because only you can describe what it was like and it must have been a terrifying and distressing situation and I'm sorry we've had to ask you to relive it yet again but it is very helpful to us and we're very
01:20:55 very helpful to us and we're very grateful to you for coming along to give your evidence if I may say so in a very careful and composed way as well thank you thank you well now you're free to go would you like to go with the usher and he'll look after you
01:21:14 mr. chairman we do have one more witness yes we call this morning but could I just ask for a short five-minute break to rearrange any arrangements that may be necessary
01:21:25 be necessary well I'll rise to 5 mins or if you're really sooner ask the answer to come and get me grateful thank you
01:29:37 yes mr. Ahmad now then are we ready mr. chairman and can I now call please he what dad no chew
01:29:46 chew yes thank you
01:30:15 my survivor to God I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give my bamboo confession yes shall be the truth should be the truth the whole truth
01:30:30 thank you very much indeed sit down make yourself comfortable yes mr. Rawat Thank You mr. chairman can you give me inquiry your full name please
01:30:41 please here at dang agile mrs. Delatour can I start by first of all thanking you for coming to give evidence to us today
01:30:52 coming to give evidence to us today everyone here will have seen the witness statement you've already given but we are very grateful for your willingness to continue to help the inquiry can I
01:31:03 to continue to help the inquiry can I just explain four preliminary matters before we go on first thing is that if you need a break at any time please just say so and we'll stop the second is that
01:31:17 say so and we'll stop the second is that everyone here will understand how difficult it is to have to go back to the events of that night and so it's important that you know that you can take as much time as you need third and
01:31:34 take as much time as you need third and I hope I can do this but I'm going to try and keep my questions as short and straightforward as that I can make them but if I do ask something that you don't understand then don't hesitate to tell
01:31:45 understand then don't hesitate to tell me and I'll try and put it in a different way thank you and the last thing I want to mention to you just so that you're how we're going to do things today is that before you
01:31:57 to do things today is that before you came here through your solicitors you confirmed that your evidence is going to focus on what the inquiry calls phase 1 which is the events of the night and that's what my questions are going to be
01:32:08 that's what my questions are going to be about today so I won't ask you about the wider issues that will be canvassed in phase 2 we have please on the screen the
01:32:20 phase 2 we have please on the screen the first page of mrs. Dead matches statement which is iws five zeros eight four five
01:32:31 just to help you orientate yourself you can see that that's the first page of your statement and it's the same until you've given to this inquiry it'll come up as we go through it on the screen
01:32:42 up as we go through it on the screen that's there but if you want a paper copy
01:32:45 copy you should find one in the bundle in front of you it's not mine have you got the wrong one there yes Merrill I'm sorry is not well organized
01:33:16 have you got a clean one
01:33:22 thank you
01:33:26 sorry about that all right thank you let's just check it so if you have one hopefully your statement will be there it is thank you thank you can we go to
01:33:39 it is thank you thank you can we go to page 30 end of the statement and that will come up as well on the screen for interviews and we can see there the statements dated the 21st of May 2012
01:33:52 statements dated the 21st of May 2012 and it's signed can you confirm that that's your signature it is have you had a chance to go through your statement recently I have and can you confirm that
01:34:03 recently I have and can you confirm that the contents of the statement are true it is
01:34:07 it is let's jump to the record there are no exhibits to be put into the record thank you can I begin please with just a bit of background if I may and I'll take
01:34:18 bit of background if I may and I'll take you back to page four of your statement and if we look at paragraphs 14 and 17
01:34:38 and what you've explained in these paragraphs is that you first moved into the tower in 2004 yes I did and that was when your son was was young and you were
01:34:49 when your son was was young and you were expecting your daughter yes I was and you moved into flat 1 1 2 and then it was 6 years later that you moved into flats 26 that's true and that's where
01:35:03 flats 26 that's true and that's where you were living in June 2017 it was so um if my maths is right you you had by June 2017 had a home in
01:35:14 you had by June 2017 had a home in Greenville tower for nearly 13 years haven't you yes and is it right also you had a tendency with the RB Casey Casey TMO yeah and then by June there for 2017
01:35:32 TMO yeah and then by June there for 2017 you were living in flat 26 with your partner yes and with your son and your daughter yeah and by then your son was 13 and your daughter 11 that's correct
01:35:50 could we just take a look now at page 3 of the statements and just bring up paragraph 9 please you've explained in
01:36:05 paragraph 9 please you've explained in his paragraphs mystech not sure that everything that was important to me and my family was close to the tower both your children's schools were within 15 minutes walk from the home your mother lived a 10-minute walk from you in
01:36:17 lived a 10-minute walk from you in Ladbroke Grove and you were able to work to work within 20 minutes and you finished that paragraph by saying I felt extremely lucky to yield to work so close to home with a young family did
01:36:30 close to home with a young family did you feel settled in flat 26 absolutely it was a home I always thought I'd live forever so that's where you saw your
01:36:44 forever so that's where you saw your future two things that absolutely I'd like to start if I may just by asking you some questions about what your flat was like in 2017 and I'm sorry we aren't
01:36:58 was like in 2017 and I'm sorry we aren't going to jump around the statement a little bit let's go to page 16 of statement
01:37:15 and paragraph 87 please
01:37:23 I won't read out the whole paragraph to you but what you're discussing there is is your front door and you tell us that the front door was replaced during the
01:37:34 the front door was replaced during the refurbishment and I believe it was one of the first of the refurbishment before all the big refurbishment I eat the boilers and other things took place the
01:37:47 boilers and other things took place the window replacements so that was one of the first things that happened to your flat was it yeah I was quite early on and was that the door you still had in June 2010 can you describe that door to
01:38:00 June 2010 can you describe that door to us what did it look like um it was blue I had a small arched window at the top
01:38:10 did it have a letterbox and it did have a letterbox did it have a self closing mechanism did and in June 2017 how was that self
01:38:22 and in June 2017 how was that self closing mechanism work it was still working and so you didn't have any problems with that at all did you I didn't I was actually offered when I had two problem with the door the day
01:38:35 had two problem with the door the day I've got stuck in my flat had I wanted it to be removed by the contractor that came to make it easier to open and
01:38:46 came to make it easier to open and closed but I stated no I wanted it to remain because if I they want to lock the door it was just a flock and he didn't he didn't need the keys to lock
01:38:58 didn't he didn't need the keys to lock the door so I I insisted in keeping it the way it was
01:39:07 can we go to paragraph 95 then and that's on page 18 of the statement
01:39:20 in this part of your statement you describe having problems with drafts around your replacement windows were you having problems of that sort in June
01:39:33 having problems of that sort in June 2017 a slight problem because I had raised the issue so many times with the resident liaison officer on some
01:39:45 resident liaison officer on some occasions and also with her manager so they consult out the gaps I had where the draft was coming through and I think
01:39:57 the draft was coming through and I think is in my statement this happened to other four occasions where they had to come in and see where I've you know we had drafts coming through the windows
01:40:08 had drafts coming through the windows and but just so that we can be clear if we take you to June 2017 it was a sealer problem slight problem and was there any
01:40:19 problem slight problem and was there any particular window that was affected by this slight problem I would say the sitting-room window and a bit in the
01:40:30 sitting-room window and a bit in the kid's bedroom
01:40:33 perhaps if we show you a plan we have m ET three zeros one two five nine three please and then page twelve of that
01:40:58 just to explain to you this don't mature this is a layout as you can see of the fourth floor but it applies to your floor because from the fourth floor up the layout was the same for every flat
01:41:09 the layout was the same for every flat yeah and so if we can expand the flat six please so that's in the top northeast corner so
01:41:21 so that's in the top northeast corner so that would be we went up one level that would be flat 26 where you lived yeah we can see that there are windows in the lounge you've got two windows
01:41:34 in the lounge you've got two windows North two windows East you mentioned that there were problems with drafts in a living room window yeah can you using that tell us which window it was yeah
01:41:46 that tell us which window it was yeah it's the window in the lounge facing the north side and also the first bedroom
01:41:59 north side and also the first bedroom that's right next to the large that window in that bedroom so we've got two windows in the lounge facing north was it the window closest to the bed no sir to the bedroom so so if we look at
01:42:12 sir to the bedroom so so if we look at that wall of that bedroom you had problems with the two windows on either side of that wall yeah and I would say I have that probably the reason I noticed that window particularly in the lounge
01:42:25 that window particularly in the lounge was because my sofa was closer to that window and that's where I sat most evenings and could have been possible that the others may have still had a bit
01:42:38 that the others may have still had a bit of a draft coming through and was it any particular part of the window that you'd feel a draft right at the bottom by the sill by the edges and was that the case in
01:42:51 edges and was that the case in relationship both windows it was and that bedroom that we see the one that's nearest to the lounge was that your your bedroom or it was the children stopped and were there particular times when
01:43:03 and were there particular times when there was when you'd feel a draft in the evenings most evenings especially when it was very windy outside
01:43:14 could we bring that image back down so that we can see the whole of it please and then just expand the middle part
01:43:31 mystech not you what you can see I have slightly faintly but can you see that there's a there's an area marked as the communal Hall yeah and where the lifts are and the stair doors to the stairs
01:43:43 are and the stair doors to the stairs yeah um since I think people call it the lobby area or the landing yeah now you're on the fifth floor and you'd lived there for six years by 2017 but if
01:43:57 lived there for six years by 2017 but if we go back to the days leading up to the fire gee do you remember what the temperature was like in the lobby area on your floor and explain to us what you mean by quite normal it wasn't hot it
01:44:09 mean by quite normal it wasn't hot it was uncalled it was just yeah I don't know how to explain it what would you describe it as comfortable comfortable yes and that was that how it was usually
01:44:21 yes and that was that how it was usually it was were there ever occasions when the temperature became too hot I don't remember any time were you aware any
01:44:34 remember any time were you aware any system in place to call the temperature on the landing down no I wasn't aware or maybe I forgotten to be honest did you ever hear the sound of fans in the
01:44:45 ever hear the sound of fans in the landing area I I don't remember
01:44:52 thank you I want now if I may just to show you a photograph that's taken it's taken inside the tower but it's a Burn Notice and before I do it though mr. chairman if I may I'll give the usual
01:45:03 chairman if I may I'll give the usual warning because it because it is a photograph taken after the fire and that may be distressing to some of those here so I'll briefly pause just to allow an opportunity if anyone wants to leave
01:45:15 opportunity if anyone wants to leave looking at the hearing room everyone's alright can we have the LA four zeros two four one six please
01:45:39 if I could just again explain to you miss deathmatch you it's a notice that the photograph shows it's the notice that was positioned by the lift doors on floor 3 my first question to you now is
01:45:54 floor 3 my first question to you now is do you remember seeing a notice like this between the lifts or cited by the lifts on the ground floor yes and what about your own floor was there a notice like that on your I do not require I
01:46:05 like that on your I do not require I don't remember to be honest but I certainly remember on the ground floor seeing it and if we just expand the top part of it
01:46:23 you can see that it reads that there's a state policy for residents unless the fire is in or affecting your flat yeah before the 14th of June 2017 did the
01:46:35 before the 14th of June 2017 did the phrase stay put mean anything to you it's a hard question for me to answer because where
01:46:47 question for me to answer because where I work I've always been taught and will always regularly have fire drills if you see or suspect any fire you just leave no seconds to waste you no need to go
01:47:02 no seconds to waste you no need to go and grab your jackets so that's always stayed with me so I suppose that staple policy which not have really staged and I don't know I I don't think I would
01:47:15 I don't know I I don't think I would have really stayed put if I was aware of any fire anyway be it's my flat or egg or as well aside from the notice that
01:47:29 or as well aside from the notice that you remember on the ground floor were you ever aware of any information from any organization or individual about what you should do if there was a fire No so would it be fair to say that what
01:47:46 No so would it be fair to say that what informed your understanding in June 2017 of what to do if there was a fire in the tower was what you had learnt from work yes again I'm going to show you just
01:48:01 yes again I'm going to show you just another photograph again it's taken
01:48:07 after the fire and it's of the interior of the building I don't think I think the warning applies but I don't think anybody's wanting to leave at this point
01:48:19 anybody's wanting to leave at this point mr. chairman so let's put it up if I could just mean it doesn't show anything distressing in particular stet matchu but we have BL a four zeroes
01:48:30 stet matchu but we have BL a four zeroes to five one three please this is a photograph they explain mr. nature it's taken on floor six and can you see that
01:48:42 taken on floor six and can you see that there is what might be described in the ceiling a white detector yes at a round plastic object there yeah can you recall if there was a something similar to that
01:48:53 if there was a something similar to that in the ceiling of the communal area on your floor I remember there being one before there refurbishments but I can't
01:49:04 before there refurbishments but I can't recall or remember if it was still around after the refurbishments were completed because I remember we had four ceilings put up when right about the
01:49:16 ceilings put up when right about the time the refurbishments were completed so - I really don't remember if it was still there after the refurbishments were completed
01:49:38 what I'd like to do now is to turn to the events themselves are you happy to continue yes thank you can I take you
01:49:49 continue yes thank you can I take you then - we have iws 845 page five please
01:49:59 and if we could just expand the bottom half of that the last two paragraphs
01:50:10 again just to put things in context with its miss Dogma - you're beginning your statement there with your recollection of the night of the 13th of June and you
01:50:22 of the night of the 13th of June and you have earlier in the statement of paragraph 21 you begin it by saying it was a normal Tuesday evening for our family I remember it being a warm balmy
01:50:33 family I remember it being a warm balmy evening and what you tell us in the two paragraphs that we can see up on the screen is that the children roam bed by about 9:00 p.m. your partner Wynton went
01:50:44 about 9:00 p.m. your partner Wynton went to bed and you fell asleep on the sofa yes if we go to the next page please and look at paragraphs 26 and 28 - 28 please
01:51:01 I'm going to pick it up with the second paragraph and say I was sleeping on the sofa I was woken up when I heard what seemed to be the distant sound of an alarm when I started to awaken I could
01:51:14 alarm when I started to awaken I could smell smoke and I could hear the faint ringing sound which would have woken me at first I thought that I was imagining the noise but it wouldn't stop and then I realised I was smelling smoke could
01:51:28 I realised I was smelling smoke could you describe the smell of the smoke to us I really couldn't I really don't remember this male at all you they
01:51:40 remember this male at all you they smelled smoke but I don't remember what I smelled like is it quite a light smell or very strong at the time probably
01:51:54 or very strong at the time probably rancid but again I mean sitting here thinking about how it smelled back then it's kind of hard time yeah yeah now you
01:52:07 it's kind of hard time yeah yeah now you were it obviously because you'd fallen asleep on the sofa you're in the living room remember if any of the living room windows were open at the time I don't think there were I think it was just the kitchen window that was open that night
01:52:20 you lost you could smell smoke could you see any smoke in the air in the living room not in the living room no and you
01:52:32 room not in the living room no and you if we look at paragraph 27 what you then did was made your way to the kitchen yes and if you just explained we can go back to the plan if it will help you but just the the layout how would you go
01:52:44 just the the layout how would you go from your living room to your kitchen there was a door to the living room which is always open I always liked their topic and there was a bill for corridor and then the kitchen
01:52:57 a bill for corridor and then the kitchen door was right opposite it
01:53:07 as you're making your way from your living room to kitchen could you see anything from the windows of the living room no I couldn't did you know she didn't know anything going on outside not at all
01:53:19 going on outside not at all so there was nothing outside the windows that caused you concern no not at all not at that time
01:53:33 if I draw your attention to paragraph 28 what you explained is that and so I pick it up again at paragraph 27 as soon as I
01:53:46 it up again at paragraph 27 as soon as I opened the kitchen door I could see the kitchen was full of smoke the smoke was dark gray in color but I could still see through it and then you continue in 28 ringing mirrors which I could hear was
01:53:57 ringing mirrors which I could hear was coming from the carbon monoxide alarm which was sitting on a kitchen shelf and that was an alarm that had been given to you some time earlier is that right was yeah can I just ask when you went into
01:54:10 yeah can I just ask when you went into the kitchen and saw all the smoke did you get any impression of where the smoke was coming from not at all that which is why I was looking to see at first that it was my kitchen that was
01:54:22 first that it was my kitchen that was full of smoke and on fire but I couldn't see anything I looked on the cooker I tried to look where the smoke was coming from and I had no idea up until the last
01:54:34 from and I had no idea up until the last moment where the fire came through
01:54:43 thank you mr. Chen let's go then just a paragraph 29 the statement please the next paragraph down on the same page
01:54:58 this ties into what you've just told the chairman about what you remember doing in the kitchen but you mentioned that the window was on a side hinge and it
01:55:10 the window was on a side hinge and it had been left open and yeah just so just explain to us it means notice how the window would open on that hinge does it open outwards like a door no it opens so
01:55:24 open outwards like a door no it opens so you would turn the handle yeah and it would pull it yeah so but it would still be like a door yeah it wasn't until that window no it wasn't the small one was not whereas the other side the other
01:55:35 not whereas the other side the other half you could either tilt it or open it wider
01:55:41 wider was it the small window a window that was open yeah and I appreciate it's difficult and we're asking you to go into detail but can you tell us how open
01:55:53 into detail but can you tell us how open that side window was when it was open as far as II it could go I suppose and you'd let that in to get some air
01:56:05 and you'd let that in to get some air into the flat is that right Bastien but I assume there were some forms stopped on the window oh yeah there is cause that what yeah and the window has got frame you know so kind of stopped just
01:56:19 frame you know so kind of stopped just before the frames thank you did you have a vent in the window just above this window and what about an extractor fan that was I think
01:56:32 about an extractor fan that was I think part part of it say anything no it yeah I think we might try and find it find out sometime find a picture to show you in a moment but just so that we can get it as clear as we can but you have a
01:56:45 it as clear as we can but you have a window that has a large pain on one side a side window that can open words yeah and then above it a small fan sort of yeah an extractor
01:57:06 I'll come back to that if I may and
01:57:16 so what can I go back enough did you say event yes did it have event no it just had that fun destructor so that's above the small size white I
01:57:27 so that's above the small size white I can remember above the window yeah there was an attack I remember yeah I don't remember if there was any event I drew a dronov recall and did the were there
01:57:42 dronov recall and did the were there wires leading from that extractor to anywhere I think there was a small wire where you can pull that don't know if it was attached to it or on the side but if
01:57:54 was attached to it or on the side but if you've got yes we can I think again just to alert everyone here it's of course a
01:58:05 to alert everyone here it's of course a picture taken inside the tower but after after the fire it's not particularly it's not it wasn't it's it is just over kitchen window so if we can have BL AR I
01:58:16 kitchen window so if we can have BL AR I think seven zeros three please and then page 23 of that document
01:58:40 if we could expand the image please was that how that this I think from memory is taken from a flat on the floor 13 but
01:58:52 is taken from a flat on the floor 13 but obviously you were alone a different fraught but was that how your kitchen window looks yes it was and and we can see that there is that's the side window that you can open young words yes and
01:59:03 that you can open young words yes and above it is that where the the fan extractor was yeah thank you if we go back then to your statement in your paragraph 29 I WS 845 page 6
01:59:23 let's expand paragraph 29 again please
01:59:28 um I just wanted it's go through it so you've you've come into your kitchen and what you then say is within seconds of looking around the kitchen to try and
01:59:39 looking around the kitchen to try and find the source of the smoke fire all of a sudden came through the kitchen window which was open and the blinds immediately caught fire the window was on a side hinge and as it was a hot
01:59:50 on a side hinge and as it was a hot night we'd left the window open to let some cool air and a breeze into the flat the blinds fell to the floor almost instantaneously color of the flames with dark yellow orange flames were covering
02:00:02 dark yellow orange flames were covering the whole of the kitchen window which went up to the ceiling if we can try and just break that down little please um before you saw any flames did you have
02:00:14 before you saw any flames did you have any chance to see where the smoke might be coming from no I don't know butchers while I was still looking around to see where it was coming from and and as I
02:00:26 where it was coming from and and as I was looking I don't think I looked for oh no 10 20 seconds maybe 30 seconds before I noticed the fire or the the
02:00:40 before I noticed the fire or the the fire kept coming through
02:00:43 surrounding the whole of the window and did you see anything around the extractor fan at all I don't remember it was the whole of the window that was instantly lips and fire and and when you
02:01:00 instantly lips and fire and and when you say the whole was it would just surround the frame to begin with or it felt like it just came in just like that the whole of the window sorry
02:01:14 if we just look at paragraph 30
02:01:26 what you say is that you pulled the kitchen door shut and ran along the corridor to wake the children in your partner and you shouting there's a fire there's a fire we need to go how far
02:01:39 there's a fire we need to go how far into the kitchen did the flames get before you shut the kitchen window the whole of their kitchen windows and I supposed up to the ceiling and like I
02:01:51 supposed up to the ceiling and like I said the blind was already alight instantly was just like seconds and it just dropped this is when I literally just closed the door and just ran out
02:02:03 just closed the door and just ran out and run into the kids bedroom got them up so I would say
02:02:15 probably the whole of them that side of the window all the way up to the ceiling can you remember if any what was happening to the glass in the window no I didn't stick around that long
02:02:28 I didn't stick around that long it was just seconds I did not see or hear anything afterwards and so would it be fair to summarize your evidence in this way that you when you came to
02:02:40 this way that you when you came to kitchen you saw smoke and then very quickly there was just fire all around the window very seconds seconds and it
02:02:51 the window very seconds seconds and it was just in flames and and it was all over the window rather than just like starting here or starting above it was just don't wall of
02:03:03 starting above it was just don't wall of the window instantaneously thank you very much can we go just take a look at paragraph 31 now please
02:03:19 in that Swiss paragraph you say the smoke alarms did not go off in the flat I had to smoke alarms in my flat one in the corridor and one in the kitchen but they were not linked up up to go off at
02:03:31 they were not linked up up to go off at the same time you can see I do not know if the alarms were connected to the mains electricity supply or if they were battery controlled I had never tasted the alarms but I knew that the alarm in
02:03:43 the alarms but I knew that the alarm in the kitchen was working as on the Saturday before the fire I had managed to trigger it when I was roasting Ethiopian coffee beans that's correct so
02:03:57 Ethiopian coffee beans that's correct so two alarms one in the kitchen one in the hallway neither of them was triggered is that right that's true did you at any time before leaving your flat here
02:04:09 time before leaving your flat here either the smoke alarm in the kitchen or the one in the corridor go off I do not remember it at all I don't know I hear it you've given the comparison of
02:04:23 it you've given the comparison of roasting coffee beans yes how much smoke do you would be generated on your to trigger the smoke detector I've often
02:04:39 trigger the smoke detector I've often wondered since after then why the there alarm didn't sound in the kitchen and I've thought to myself maybe while I was
02:04:53 I've thought to myself maybe while I was still sleeping on the sofa it went off maybe I didn't hear it because I normally tend to have like really deep sleep once I follow I fall asleep it's
02:05:05 sleep once I follow I fall asleep it's been a long day may not work taking the kids to after-school activities and so on as I've often wondered had I not heard it while I was still sleeping
02:05:18 heard it while I was still sleeping did it go off and then stop working I wondered that many many times but if we use the example of that Saturday before the fire when you were
02:05:29 Saturday before the fire when you were roasting coffee beans did the smoke was that smoke alarm the type that you would have to switch it off what would carry on until it was switched off yeah or did it turn off after a while I had to turn it off there
02:05:41 after a while I had to turn it off there was a button right in the middle and we just tag you know a steak or whatever to stop it if we look now please at
02:05:56 stop it if we look now please at paragraphs 32 and 33
02:06:07 you've explained there mr. doing that you that you got the children your son was in his pajamas and trainers shoes your daughter was in the night in socks and your family left the flat closing
02:06:22 and your family left the flat closing the door behind you and I think if we look at paragraph 33 you say we were out of the flat within a minute of me seeing the fire in the time that you were still
02:06:35 the fire in the time that you were still in the flat what G was there had there been any smoke elsewhere in the flat at all no just the kitchen so when you left taking the kids out of the bedroom going through the hallway there was nothing
02:06:46 through the hallway there was nothing else in the flat assess the kitchen better thing is we we didn't hang around a long time it was just time it took me to get the kids up and went Alma so we
02:06:59 to get the kids up and went Alma so we did around to to see what was happening I suppose that's why I don't I don't know if there was anything else and when you came out of your flat you would have
02:07:11 you came out of your flat you would have come out into that communal area wouldn't you yes we did with the lights on in the area when I came out and what was the temperature of that area like at that time just as usual
02:07:23 that time just as usual could you hear any fans at all remember could you feel any movement of air on the landing nothing
02:07:40 if we go just down the page a bit and just look the paragraph 34 and 35 please
02:07:49 say we got onto the landing my daughter started walking to the lift and press the button to call the lift yeah that part there's is a bit of a typo she didn't actually press the lift
02:08:00 typo she didn't actually press the lift she was about to walk that way it was the lift to press it to for the lift to come I actually grabbed her because I knew that in an event often fire you
02:08:13 knew that in an event often fire you should not use the lift so she doom actually press the lift so for the record one more paragraph those four should read is that when we got onto the landing my daughter started
02:08:24 got onto the landing my daughter started walking to the lift to press to Madras to call the lift yeah and you pulled her back you say there was no sign of any fire when we got onto the landing area outside our flat the air was clear there
02:08:37 outside our flat the air was clear there was no smoke nobody else on our floor was outside off their flats you've told us about the smoke alarms in your flat could you hear smoke alarms elsewhere and I didn't and to take the stairs you
02:08:53 and I didn't and to take the stairs you would have to go through a door wouldn't you yes do you remember that when you went that way whether the law from your floor on to the stairwell was open or shut it was shut and so you would have
02:09:05 shut it was shut and so you would have had to open it yes do I'll show your children through is that right yes and when you got onto the stairwell what happened to the door it would automatically shut I would assume is
02:09:18 automatically shut I would assume is shot behind us as we walked past the door and was that your experience of that door that it did automatically shut yes it did
02:09:31 mr. chairman I'm looking at the time but I'm wondering whether if subject to any views of mrs. Deng not you it might be a good time to have a break are you getting old with the person I'm I think
02:09:43 getting old with the person I'm I think I'm well I'm about two-thirds of the way through I would say how do you feel mr. day after you would like a break would you like to come happy to carry on thank you very much
02:09:54 you very much I thought you looking quite let's do ask I agree yes I think we can go thank you let's it's the same page miss dignity but I just want to take you now to the
02:10:06 but I just want to take you now to the the last two paragraphs on the page where you have an encounter with a firefighter yeah and what you've explained won't read I'll try and
02:10:17 explained won't read I'll try and summarize it but the you went down one floor and you encountered a clean faced firefighter who wasn't wearing breathing apparatus that's correct
02:10:28 apparatus that's correct and he was on his own in the stairwells yes he was and you quite clear in your mind that he was on the fourth floor below yes what was the fighter doing
02:10:40 below yes what was the fighter doing when you came across him at the time I knew there was a horse involved and at the time we thought he was rolling up
02:10:52 the time we thought he was rolling up the fire um the the the horse but from the conversations we had with the firefighter and he led me to believe maybe he wasn't he wasn't I'm rolling
02:11:07 maybe he wasn't he wasn't I'm rolling over unloading I remember um but it did involve a fire hose I did involve that firefighter on a floor and
02:11:23 can I just read yes please sir cool yeah we thought he was rolling up there those
02:11:34 we thought he was rolling up there those but from the reaction we got from him and I think we assumed maybe was in the case at that time thank you
02:11:46 case at that time thank you um can you remember obviously he's two flights down isn't he well yeah yeah so
02:11:59 flights down isn't he well yeah yeah so you've come down two flights of steps to the fourth floor can you remember if the stairwell door to the fourth floor was open or closed I don't remember you've come into the
02:12:11 I don't remember you've come into the stairwell just gone down one floor and then met this firefighter what were the conditions like in the stairwell at that time it was clear there was no sign of
02:12:23 time it was clear there was no sign of any smoke or any fire I didn't see anything out of the ordinary at that time and
02:12:37 aside from yourselves and the firefighter did you see anybody else no were you aware of any residents coming down from higher floors no and anyone below you
02:12:48 below you no let's go to the next page then look at paragraphs 38:41 please just going to
02:13:03 at paragraphs 38:41 please just going to take you through this if I'm a parent of 38 you see I told the firefighter there was a fire in our kitchen or that the fire had come through the kitchen window I do not remember my exact words but
02:13:15 I do not remember my exact words but said words to the effect of there's a fire in our kitchen wynton was standing behind me and said there's fire coming into our kitchen if I was shocked because of his reaction the firefighter
02:13:26 because of his reaction the firefighter was shocked because of his reaction and the questions he asked what flat what floor what number I told him flat 26 on the fifth floor he said show me then you continue all four of us then went back
02:13:38 continue all four of us then went back up the stairs with the firefighter to the fifth floor and we showed him our flat he asked me to open it when tonight are both told him we did not have the keys that he has left the flat in a hurry when we run out of the flattened
02:13:51 hurry when we run out of the flattened at panic we'd left behind our keys and my mobile phone if we would pick up the last part of all of this in paragraph 41 we were all standing there looking at
02:14:02 we were all standing there looking at the door to the flat my main concern was the children and I did not want to stand there any longer than we needed to so we left the firefighter on our landing as soon as we had shown him our flat and
02:14:13 soon as we had shown him our flat and ran back down the stairs so when you got back onto the fifth floor landing with
02:14:24 back onto the fifth floor landing with the firefighter were the conditions any different to those when you'd left it was the Natal it was exactly as we left it so still clear no smoke and no
02:14:36 left it so still clear no smoke and no one coming out of their phlegm no one
02:14:41 you've described your door as having a an arched window atop and I think you said it had a letterbox is that I did was there any smoke coming out from around your door or underneath it
02:14:53 around your door or underneath it nothing at all if you were looking through the arched window would you have been able to see any signs of fire in the flat yeah if there was what yeah but
02:15:04 the flat yeah if there was what yeah but did you do remember at all looking through the window and saying no I don't remember and on this trip back to your home could you hear the sound any smoke
02:15:17 home could you hear the sound any smoke alarms coming from your flat no you obviously the firefighter you tell us asked you to open the door did you see him do anything else no because I was so
02:15:31 him do anything else no because I was so worried about the children um I already told the firefighter he was aware he was there and I thought you know we've got decks but you know that we've got a
02:15:43 decks but you know that we've got a firefighter here um obviously you'll get the equipment's he needed to open the door and tackle the fire so we left him there can you remember if he was
02:15:54 there can you remember if he was carrying a radio I don't remember
02:16:00 did you hear him call out or speak to any other firefighters not at all and did he tell you anything about what you should do know whether you should stay on the landing or leave no he didn't if
02:16:15 on the landing or leave no he didn't if we could look at now please your paragraph 44 on page 8
02:16:25 and I'm going to read this out if I may mr. death Matsui you say we ran down the stairs and out of the tower it only took us a few minutes to exit the tower I was
02:16:36 us a few minutes to exit the tower I was in shock and all I could think about was getting out of the flat I did not realize until we were outside that my daughter had come out without her shoes yes so this second journey is a journey
02:16:48 yes so this second journey is a journey down the stairwell from the fifth floor as it was can you remember now what the conditions were like in the stairwell on this second journey down the journey in
02:17:06 this second journey down the journey in the stairwell yes my memory has is as if it's almost black going down the stairs
02:17:18 it's almost black going down the stairs I really don't remember whether we run we walked what I did to be honest with you in the stairwells so I thought I don't have much recollection of this
02:17:31 don't have much recollection of this there where I've office there well as we were going down was the was it still lit as it was doing it and it was still yeah there were still lights did you have a
02:17:42 there were still lights did you have a sense of any smoke in the stairwell at all I did not notice anything at all no and were you aware of other people being in the stairwell on that second journey down remember at all and aside from that
02:17:55 down remember at all and aside from that firefighter that we've asked you about already did you do recall meeting coming across any other firefighters on the way down they may have been a couple I think
02:18:06 down they may have been a couple I think by the entrance to the left but again as I can recall I can't be very precise if
02:18:17 I can recall I can't be very precise if there were two three if there was none at all but am I in my head I think they may have been true yeah you know you've
02:18:29 may have been true yeah you know you've told us the ages of your children yes but obviously you had two children with you did you find it easy to go down the step again like I said my recollect
02:18:45 step again like I said my recollect recollection of going down the stairs were very like almost gone I didn't even realize that I held my daughter's hand
02:18:59 realize that I held my daughter's hand until I saw the CCTV footage I was shown by the police of us exiting like on the last staircase so it's it's a hard
02:19:15 last staircase so it's it's a hard question to answer cause I don't remember what I want now to do is just look at paragraph 50 of your statement
02:19:27 look at paragraph 50 of your statement if I explain mystech not you um your your statement contains an account of what you saw and heard and did once you're outside the tower it's very good and so I don't need to ask you many
02:19:39 and so I don't need to ask you many questions about it but if we look at the reason I want to draw your attention to paragraph 50s because I think the witness before us is men on Makonnen
02:19:51 witness before us is men on Makonnen who's your niece yes and she's already spoke given her evidence about her contact with you if we look at paragraph 50 what you say and
02:20:03 we look at paragraph 50 what you say and it's if I pick it up on the second sentence you've explained already you left without your phone didn't yes and
02:20:12 you if you say a few seconds later wind him realized that he had his phone in his pocket yeah all along and I called Marin immediately Winton looked at the
02:20:25 Marin immediately Winton looked at the records of the call on his phone and he told me that I spoke to Marin at 1:24 a.m. and then you continue he took photographs of the tower on on fire at 127 and you'd called Marin before he
02:20:39 127 and you'd called Marin before he took those photographs correct and then your advice Marin was to leave the flat with the kids immediately yes um so you're clear having spoken to your
02:20:51 you're clear having spoken to your partner that was the time that you called Marin is that right yes it is and
02:20:58 you've already told us about what influences were in your mind about what to do in a fire and that was from work wasn't it yes what was it that made you
02:21:10 wasn't it yes what was it that made you tell Marin that she had to leave the flat with the kids immediately when we got out and we were by the grassy area you could clearly see the fire at the
02:21:25 you could clearly see the fire at the time I thought it was the fire was coming from the third floor and he looked as if it'd gone up to about a floor above us from the third to about
02:21:36 floor above us from the third to about the sixth floor and it quickly changed it kept going up this is when I was like I need to call her I need to call her
02:21:47 I need to call her I need to call her and I didn't have my phone I left my phone at home obviously we were in a state of panic where we left we didn't have time and I remember asking when Tom
02:22:01 have time and I remember asking when Tom if he had his phone the thing is because he was in a state of shock as well he had his pajamas back to fraud which is why he couldn't find his phone because
02:22:15 why he couldn't find his phone because he kept looking for it and he didn't even realize him to grab the phone so now thought this is going up I need her out I need to call I need to me to
02:22:26 her out I need to call I need to me to make sure she she she gets out quickly
02:22:33 um and you you deal with this in your statement obviously Miranti did come out of the tower and you also spoke to your friend Jeanette
02:22:45 you also spoke to your friend Jeanette who lived in flat one five three didn't you yes they did but because I didn't have my phone I didn't actually speak to them it until Marin had come up because when Tom didn't have anybody else's
02:22:59 when Tom didn't have anybody else's contact details on his phone so you had to make efforts to try and get their contact details and then get in touch with those people is that right yes with those things in mind that you'd
02:23:12 yes with those things in mind that you'd called me Ron at 1:24 you'd also spoken to Jeanette can I ask you just look at paragraph 60 of your statement please
02:23:24 in fact if we can pick it up a paragraph 1500 as well we have 59 and 60 together please
02:23:38 so in the preceding paragraph you were talking about trying to get in touch with Jeannette and speaking and Mehran had come out and passed the phone to you
02:23:51 had come out and passed the phone to you so that you could speak to Jeannette yeah you then say we were then moved away from the area outside of the tower by the police not long after Mehran came out are you alright would you like to
02:24:08 out are you alright would you like to break through this alright we'll just take take time then to the time
02:24:53 yeah okay we can stop at any time if you want to
02:25:01 Thank You mr. Chen mr. can actually thank you very much for the way you're asking answering my questions today but McGann just to try and help you I don't
02:25:13 McGann just to try and help you I don't want to ask you about your conversations as Jeanette all right but I'm just trying to the reason I drew your attention to these paragraphs is just so that we can get the sequence of time right and what I want to ask you about
02:25:25 right and what I want to ask you about the sentence where you say the police asked all the residents to give them their names and flat numbers do you see that yeah and my question is was this
02:25:37 that yeah and my question is was this the first time after leaving the tower that you were asked to give names and flat numbers it was and and using your call to Marin as marker and the fact
02:25:50 call to Marin as marker and the fact that Marin has come out can you say how long it was after you'd left the tower that you were first asked to give details like flat number and names I don't remember the exact time but it was
02:26:03 don't remember the exact time but it was them soon after Maryland had come out and this was when we had drunk a net and soon after that phone conversation the
02:26:16 soon after that phone conversation the police were cordoning off the area we were by the Sports Center or close to it or slightly further away from it and
02:26:27 or slightly further away from it and they started cordoning off that area I will tool to move to the other side and as we were moving the police was saying okay all residents in the tower please
02:26:40 okay all residents in the tower please give your name your flat number and how many and walk along to Clarendon rod so
02:26:51 many and walk along to Clarendon rod so this timing because we don't have the call logs from Maryland's phone it would have been soon after we had spoken to
02:27:03 have been soon after we had spoken to get it for either this second time thank you for that and and your recollection is very soon after Mehran herself but camara come out
02:27:14 Mehran herself but camara come out probably within five minutes of speaking to garnets yeah and just so that we can get a clearer picture of what was happening at that time was there a one
02:27:27 happening at that time was there a one police officer there collecting names and flat numbers or yeah from from more than one resident at the same time what kind of sort of like took turns in a way
02:27:40 kind of sort of like took turns in a way because the way was set up was like there was this cordoned kind of area and you had to walk across it and as we were crossing there was a policeman I'm
02:27:51 crossing there was a policeman I'm asking for our details and the students would give in our details would walk past past that area and there was a little passageway leading into a
02:28:02 little passageway leading into a Clarendon wood which is where we remained for the majority of the night thank you very much for that and what one of the other things you say and we don't need to bring you past information
02:28:14 don't need to bring you past information about Jeannette on to a police officer didn't to it and I won't bring it up but I'll just what you say and it's is that
02:28:25 I'll just what you say and it's is that one of the officers made a telephone call from his phone about them and that's Ginetta family in flat 153 isn't it yes so just so we can be clear this
02:28:38 it yes so just so we can be clear this officer used a mobile phone rather than a radio I can't very I can't be very precise but I thought you used to phone at the time well maybe you used to walkie-talkie I'm not sure but I
02:28:50 walkie-talkie I'm not sure but I remember clearly saying so so distressed she was still inside she was telling me that she couldn't come out and I remember pleading with the police
02:29:01 remember pleading with the police officer please there's a family trapped in this flat she's got young children could you please send him I remember I
02:29:12 could you please send him I remember I think I was even like dropping him like this begging and pleading and did you get this oh I don't know if he talked on its okey dokey oh he
02:29:24 he talked on its okey dokey oh he grabbed the phone I actually remember he did and soon after we heard from Garnett because we had a phone conversation and
02:29:36 because we had a phone conversation and she told me they managed to get out obviously no she couldn't find it
02:29:53 finished anyway yes right let's have a break we break for 10 minutes all right don't talk to anyone about your evidence please and you go with the usher and you
02:30:05 please and you go with the usher and you go with these back of course to go to one thank you very much
02:30:20 and can I suggest in the interest of the witness that this might be a good moment to which to take stop the supplementary that's what forget safety protections Chapman keep core to one
02:40:33 could you ask the witness to come back to this
02:40:57 okay no you're feeling ready to go on I am yes all right we'll just we'll we'll take it slowly yes yes mr. Roemer Thank You mr. chairman mr. Ignacio if I just
02:41:09 You mr. chairman mr. Ignacio if I just explained that in the break that we had and this is something that we usually do I've been able to consult with the other lawyers in the room to ask if they have any questions that they'd like me to ask
02:41:20 any questions that they'd like me to ask you there are four short matters that I want to cover with you and they will be short and again as I have been we might jump around your
02:41:31 as I have been we might jump around your statement a little bit but I hope we can follow a line the first thing is you gave us some description of what happened when you came out of the tower and how the police collected information
02:41:42 and how the police collected information yeah I think you told us that they were asking for names and flat numbers yes did they ask for any other details for example mobile phone numbers no the
02:41:56 example mobile phone numbers no the second thing is that you told us about the carbon monoxide detector that went off yes
02:42:04 off yes whereas your smoke alarm didn't yeah when you were roasting coffee beans on the Saturday before the smoke alarm did go off didn't it what about the carbon monoxide detector was that affected by
02:42:15 monoxide detector was that affected by the coffee beans at all oh I remember I don't think it did how did it ever happen before when you were roasting coffee beans that that detector went off had the detector go off in the past when
02:42:27 had the detector go off in the past when roasting for what reason I do not remember thank you very much um now I think you've also given evidence about the advice that you learnt about what to
02:42:39 the advice that you learnt about what to do in a fire from from your job yes did you have fire practice drills at work regularly in the time that you lived in
02:42:50 regularly in the time that you lived in the tower was there ever a drill of that sort never and the last of the four matters I've been asked to cover and it's it's your paragraph 48 please could
02:43:02 it's it's your paragraph 48 please could we bring that up it's iws 845 page nine
02:43:13 and if we could have paragraph 48 48 please and again this goes back to what we were talking about before we paused
02:43:25 we were talking about before we paused which is about timing and you've told us that you can with your partner's phone time your quarter Manong yeah but just to put that into context what you say is that initially I
02:43:38 context what you say is that initially I thought that the fire was from third to the sixth as this is what it looked like from the outside 1:22 when we got out the flames are out one floor level above our flat by the time I made a phone call
02:43:50 our flat by the time I made a phone call two minutes later and that's the phone quarterman honest no parent sorry the flames were up as far as the 7th floor by 125 the flames look like they were up to about the ninth floor um can
02:44:04 were up to about the ninth floor um can you just help us with with how you come with to give those precise times yeah obviously
02:44:11 obviously 1:25 is still going to be probably the time that it was by the 9th floor and I remember from like I said the call logs
02:44:22 remember from like I said the call logs from when Tom's phone the time that we had rang Marin was 124 and maybe I said by 125 cause like it felt like within
02:44:34 by 125 cause like it felt like within minutes it just kept going up and up that's probably why I've put that time there maybe 125 126 because yeah I felt
02:44:45 there maybe 125 126 because yeah I felt like yeah it was just flying up so quickly but what we can be confident about is that the one time though you do
02:44:57 about is that the one time though you do those 124 that phone call yes thank you one final matter and this this does come from me and it's first of all to say
02:45:08 from me and it's first of all to say thank you very much for having made a witness statement its second to say thank you for coming and giving your evidence in the way that you have today and the last then is that above what
02:45:20 and the last then is that above what you've put in the witness statement and the answers you've given today is there anything else that you think it important to tell the Chairman about the events of that night there is kind of
02:45:33 events of that night there is kind of evolves around the staple policy I suppose and there's been one burning question that is kind of lingered with
02:45:44 question that is kind of lingered with me since I've heard they're only firefighters evidence and especially the station managers the incident commander at the time because having told a
02:46:00 at the time because having told a firefighter quite early on in the evening
02:46:05 evening when we left our flat that there was a breach or fire other than their originating fire or flat fire this
02:46:18 originating fire or flat fire this question I've had is how how is it that the incident commander did not know that a fire was raging through flats as well
02:46:31 a fire was raging through flats as well not just on the outside we've had early in the evening early on in the evening radio communication there was an any congestion they were still able to
02:46:43 congestion they were still able to communicate with each other so what did the firefighter do with that vital information we gave because I've always thought ever since then every people we
02:46:59 thought ever since then every people we loved people that died in that evening had it been - and it evacuation decision they would have been here most of them would have been here today and I wanna
02:47:12 would have been here today and I wanna know did they know or how and why was that not communicated because I've
02:47:24 that not communicated because I've worked out from what I've seen from the outside footage the first that I probably came up became aware of the
02:47:35 probably came up became aware of the fire was probably about between 114 to 115 and this was early very early in the night and so many people could have been could have been
02:47:47 people could have been could have been evacuated we've lost so many people because they were told to stay put we've lost lots of my question is why
02:48:05 we've lost lots of my question is why why didn't the police policy not not change when they knew VVIP on that fire was going into other floods not just the
02:48:18 was going into other floods not just the originating fire oh sorry flats fire that's my question and that's what I would like to know and what and if any early decision could
02:48:33 what and if any early decision could have is should've and wouldn't
02:48:44 of course yeah you can see was just even on the outside raging up and when you see going up and up all he wanted was people to be out I was standing there
02:48:57 people to be out I was standing there looking for people for faces for so many to come out I was waiting for my friends for my neighbors to come out why was the
02:49:13 for my neighbors to come out why was the policy not changed early on why I will not be evacuated finally under that is what I want a Tomas well it's an
02:49:24 what I want a Tomas well it's an important question and one which we will do our very best to answer is nothing further from me but thank you very much once again mr. patchak and I'd like to
02:49:36 once again mr. patchak and I'd like to thank you as well it's really vital as I said to many other witnesses that we hear about what was going on inside the time and I have to say that your description of the fire coming into your
02:49:47 description of the fire coming into your kitchen must be truly terrifying experience and you obviously found what happened thereafter very distressing as well so I'm sorry we've had to ask you
02:49:58 well so I'm sorry we've had to ask you to relive it but it will help us very much in getting at the answer to your question all right thank you very much for coming to keep our evidence and you're free to go if you'd like to get
02:50:10 you're free to go if you'd like to get the ashes you look after you
02:50:29 well mr. rubb absolute certain it is a convenient time there is there will be another witness this afternoon starting at two o'clock mr. millet will be calling that witness right alright well
02:50:42 calling that witness right alright well we'll break now and resume at two o'clock then please