Mahmoud Coudair, a disabled resident of Flat 64 (9th floor), recounts his family's escape from Grenfell Tower on the night of the fire.
00:00:06 yes sir good afternoon mr. chairman I'm going to call our next witness to give evidence mr. Mejia coudair I understand
00:00:17 evidence mr. Mejia coudair I understand we would like the services of interpreter he would yes and he's got one company
00:00:56 I swear by Almighty God I swear by Almighty God that I will well and faithfully interpret that I will well and faithfully interpret and true explanation made for all such matters
00:01:09 explanation made for all such matters and true explanation made of all such matters and things and things I shall be required of me as shall be required of me according to the best of my skill according to the best of my skill and
00:01:22 according to the best of my skill and understand and understanding thank you very much
00:01:35 I swear by Allah I stood by Allah so second that the evidence I shall give as evidence I shall give shall be the truth
00:01:47 evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing after you understand so do I thank you thank you
00:02:00 understand so do I thank you thank you very much mr. ku jet yeah I hope you're comfortable there yeah okay yep fine now no um mr. Miller is going to ask you some questions if you're sure you understand this question and feel
00:02:13 understand this question and feel comfortable answering it in English you could do that but if you're not quite sure you understand it and you may not be the only one or if you want to express your thoughts in a way which you
00:02:25 express your thoughts in a way which you don't find too easy in English we'll use the interpreter oh right applicant Kim Ki yes good afternoon mr. coudair can I start by asking you please to give your
00:02:37 start by asking you please to give your full name to the Chairman mad hot air and can I begin by saying a very big thank you to you for providing the inquiry with your witness statement your written witness statement and also for
00:02:49 written witness statement and also for coming here today to give evidence it's very important to us that you you've done that and we're very grateful to you if you need to break at any time please just say I know that it can be quite
00:03:00 just say I know that it can be quite difficult to relive the experiences of that terrible night and so if you need a break we can take a break it's not a problem
00:03:08 problem there's no rush and we have all afternoon if we need it sometimes my questions can be difficult to understand and if so just say and I can ask the question again or in a different way and
00:03:22 question again or in a different way and sometimes when you're answering I may be looking at my screen or my notes it doesn't mean I'm not listening to you I am listening to you all the time and what you have to say is very important
00:03:34 what you have to say is very important okay thank you all right now you've done a a witness statement for the inquiry and it's reference is iws 182
00:03:46 iws 182 and they're thinking you can't well can you confirm to us that that is your witness statement yes and that's an English version I think you also made a version in Arabic yes which is in front
00:03:59 version in Arabic yes which is in front of you in the file if you need it at tab two of the little of the little file if you need it okay but I'm going to ask
00:04:10 you need it okay but I'm going to ask you questions on your English statement and if you need the interpreter to help you interpret your English statement then I can do that can you just pause are you going to be more comfortable
00:04:21 are you going to be more comfortable reading the Arabic text or the English text I'm finding this number yeah yeah all right all right Thank You mr. chairman
00:04:32 chairman now can I ask you please to turn to the last page of your of your statement which is page 9
00:04:46 page 9
00:04:57 that's seven yes but there is a signature page right can we go
00:05:10 signature page right can we go can we get on two pages please
00:05:24 but there this is the first time this has happened there appears to be a technical problem with the last two pages of the of the statement and obviously it's critical that they again they gave into evidence mr. good I'm
00:05:36 they gave into evidence mr. good I'm sorry about this okay that's have to sort this out well it's also important that those who are following in the air it is alright thank you right it's been found mr. cadet that is
00:05:50 right it's been found mr. cadet that is the last page of your statement page nine and we can see that it carries a date of 18th of May 2008 een and a signature can you confirm that that is
00:06:02 signature can you confirm that that is your signature yes thank you have you had a chance to read this statement recently yeah you have and can you confirm that its contents are true yes
00:06:13 confirm that its contents are true yes general thank you yes it is now we are going to be looking at a number of CCTV pictures not very many and some other
00:06:24 pictures not very many and some other photographs taken after the fire they don't have any pictures of the building on fire but I always have to give a warning just in case people find those photographs distressing but we'll come
00:06:37 photographs distressing but we'll come to them and can I start with some questions about your background okay you I think say in your statement that your family home at the time of the fire was
00:06:48 family home at the time of the fire was flat 64 on the ninth floor of grenfell tower yes
00:06:52 tower yes and in June 2017 can you tell can you tell us who was living there with you shaking about him in June at the time of the fire I'm sorry um if you would like
00:07:07 the fire I'm sorry um if you would like to have the question translated no I can't hear the questions Oh like mr. blip to keep his voice on yes please lower yeah I think you're gonna have to
00:07:18 lower yeah I think you're gonna have to keep your voice up and to make the questions particularly short because if it becomes apparent that mr. coudair needs some help we can then have the question translated yes
00:07:30 question translated yes may I ask that this translate it obviously I have been quite a lot yes
00:07:41 you think he won't necessarily understand the question if it's not translated I think that as you can see his level of English is very good indeed but I think this is so important that I
00:07:52 but I think this is so important that I think it should be translated right well mr. millet you can avoid any uncertainty when you write an interpreter we're going to use you for all the questions and answers so can we
00:08:04 all the questions and answers so can we do it in the traditional way that is right off you go mr. minute what um in June 2017 who was living in flat 64 with
00:08:15 June 2017 who was living in flat 64 with you and me my wife and sick well I'm sorry
00:08:18 sorry sorry if we're going to use the interpreter and we're gonna use the interpreter we'd better do it properly so you give your answer in Arabic and my
00:08:38 so you give your answer in Arabic and my wife and my three kids I'm thinking mr. Weatherbee you're gonna have to be pragmatic we understand each other very
00:08:49 pragmatic we understand each other very well um okay and what year did you move in to flat 64 I remember maybe 2013 mm okay
00:09:00 I remember maybe 2013 mm okay were you alone when you moved in to flat 64 yeah my lord did your family join you later as they join me laughs man mm Hector of Nova but 2016 thank you now
00:09:16 mm Hector of Nova but 2016 thank you now can I ask you to look at a picture or plot a plan of grenfell Tower it which is M et triple zero one two five nine
00:09:28 is M et triple zero one two five nine three at page 12
00:09:33 mr. coudair this isn't a layout of the ninth floor it's a standard plan which shows the layout of every floor up the upwards and including the fourth flats
00:09:45 upwards and including the fourth flats as flat 64 is where we're on this planned you could see that flat 14 I can
00:09:58 planned you could see that flat 14 I can help you flat 14 is the yellow one only on the the west side the left-hand side okay is that where flat 60s would be thank you
00:10:09 thank you and is it was it a one-bedroom flat yes mama don't with three windows facing west like in this picture yeah okay and can you tell us where did your
00:10:21 can you tell us where did your daughter's sleep leaving it all in the living room and who was your landlord at the time of the fire yeah ma ta and were they were they always your landlord yeah
00:10:35 they were they always your landlord yeah no I want to ask you some questions about how you are able to get to and from your flat after the refurbishment in 2016 finished
00:10:48 in 2016 finished yeah okay and you say in your statement in on page two that you've used crutches since 2009 yes
00:11:00 since 2009 yes after the refurbishment if you had to leave your flat how would you normally get down to the ground floor before if when I start my tenancy agreement first
00:11:13 when I start my tenancy agreement first time when the affirmative that and the interest was in the loop is the same where we are now and after then when I move to my flat and they close it and they asked the people to move from the
00:11:25 they asked the people to move from the bridge
00:11:26 bridge so I lose all the way from the bridge to get to the to the building spend about Mulva 22 years and half and I complained to the MB miss Victoria about the
00:11:38 to the MB miss Victoria about the situation we have meeting with her I'm doing the people from TM or about using working all the time because I felt dumb about a lot of time because
00:11:49 felt dumb about a lot of time because was the weather raining and as no sometime sometime and did fly I didn't leave my home because for the snow for the rain I asked some people to help me to give me stuff on food to my
00:12:02 help me to give me stuff on food to my bliss I bathe them and I'm I complained a lot about this situation I will meet with somebody from TM and with the fruit Arabic and they asked that I have told
00:12:15 Arabic and they asked that I have told him about the interest for the flat is too dangerous for me to use goes all the bridge to get my flat of got a building they said after two weeks or three weeks we can open the the Interphone from the
00:12:28 we can open the the Interphone from the lobby and they spent about one month and half they opened again right right now mr. millet density understood your question in the sense that you asked it was I who gave us a very full answer I'm
00:12:43 was I who gave us a very full answer I'm concerned that we aren't going to have a an adequate meeting of minds if you co tell me well let me pry the question one more time I think it would be more satisfactory if we did use the
00:12:54 satisfactory if we did use the interpreter very well no mr. coudair you do speak English well and you obviously understand it but it's very important for me to understand clearly what you're saying so I'm going to ask you to use
00:13:06 saying so I'm going to ask you to use the interpreter okay so mr. you wait for mr. millet to ask the question which he'll keep nice and short the interpreter will then translate it into Arabic for you you then answer in Arabic
00:13:19 Arabic for you you then answer in Arabic okay and she will translate you okay I know it's but it's rather laborious okay but I think we're less likely to get across okay don't all right okay no more I think you know if you go mr. right um after the
00:13:32 know if you go mr. right um after the refurbishment was finished how would you normally get from your flat to the ground floor of the building
00:13:55 right but mother I understand my confusion sorry I'm not gonna have to interrupt you again because lady who's doing the
00:14:06 you again because lady who's doing the transcribing isn't all the stenographer isn't getting a good signal right can you can you try and actually you you're
00:14:17 you can you try and actually you you're the person we can have to hear okay can you make sure you all you did yes you can be this distance but wait should we try that thank you all right
00:14:28 try that thank you all right Khan was gonna we got the answer to the question we got the answer difficult for the strong yes of course absolutely I think with we're getting there we're game so my next question is did you ever
00:14:40 game so my next question is did you ever have to use the stairs to get to the ground floor after the refurbishment lombardi digital literate and noticed a garage had to lose a lot of it nothing
00:15:01 once I had to use the stairs to go to the first floor because the lift was broken then when I got there I managed to use the lift
00:15:13 to use the lift I see now can I ask you some questions about windows can you please be shown page 3 to download your statement and
00:15:27 page 3 to download your statement and show a week and at the foot of page 3 you can see a heading Windows Windows and you say in the first sentence
00:15:41 and you say in the first sentence I remember the windows only had a small gap after they were changed there was a gap it's that good and nor and been a few seconds free yeah by the in original
00:15:55 few seconds free yeah by the in original head will come in don't fear that first of all I think the best thing is if I
00:16:08 of all I think the best thing is if I show you what's on the statement you translate the statement in English back into Arabic for mr. Kudo and then I'll ask the question matera helical 'silly is affected as it is so on okay so you
00:16:21 is affected as it is so on okay so you say I remember the windows only had a small gap after they were changed there was a gap but my question is where was the gap after the windows were changed bad Maha don't know if is the wind convulsion officially
00:16:40 it's up on the window frame where they use sticking material to close the window
00:16:54 okay whereabouts on the window frame when when Alan was with Alan learn nephews Irwin was on the corner from the
00:17:05 nephews Irwin was on the corner from the corner on the top corner or the bottom corner top corner okay how big was the gap at this can a community it was big
00:17:17 gap at this can a community it was big at the beginning before they changed the window but then it became smaller but it was still there right when you say they changed the window is that after the
00:17:29 changed the window is that after the room during the refurbishment you know that they did yes right okay if you go to the top of the next page page 4 you
00:17:42 say there was a bigger gap now when did the gap get bigger Clayton North Asia was said it occupied meta sorry back about when when where
00:17:56 meta sorry back about when when where they put the fire in the kitchen right and when was theirs at that time that
00:18:07 and when was theirs at that time that the gap that you were talking about got bigger hell if he had a look at a federal article Amalia in T sorry talk about
00:18:21 I complained about it but they came and repaired it another time and closed it and sealed it I see sure and it was the
00:18:38 and sealed it I see sure and it was the gap was appearing again because of the wind
00:18:43 wind after the windows were replaced as part of the refurbishment could you feel any air coming through the edges of the
00:18:55 air coming through the edges of the windows combined in any rooms min min bad muscle PhD can't fishy how I'm being before min and nephews iam I
00:19:08 I'm being before min and nephews iam I used to hear some whistling right wet do you remember where the whistling you heard was coming from in Wayne living
00:19:21 heard was coming from in Wayne living room the living room and living room when was that living room windows and which part of the windows in the living room did you hear the whistling coming
00:19:32 room did you hear the whistling coming from if he should be a big I mean am a partnership big intership sovereign of
00:19:44 partnership big intership sovereign of this mess over
00:19:50 it was the last I believe I believe it was the last window on the wall in the living room okay we can go back to the
00:20:03 living room okay we can go back to the the map the plan that we looked at a moment ago which is m ET triple zero one two five nine three page 12 can you point out mr. CUDA which window
00:20:14 point out mr. CUDA which window you heard the whistling from after the refurbishment had been finished is your big here at the corner if you can see
00:20:28 big here at the corner if you can see it's at the corner with street and flat for for no she said the corner that right so so the witness for the record the witness has pointed out the southernmost window yes
00:20:43 southernmost window yes and which side of that window do you remember hearing whistling coming through dad if Malaysia began a year
00:20:55 through dad if Malaysia began a year when she became a visual source of for you
00:21:07 the problem is I didn't know and the window which was next to it was damaged and they came to repair it right who
00:21:19 and they came to repair it right who came to repair mean Asia's allahö I
00:21:27 talked to the TMO and they sent a company called called ridin and the company was the responsible for the renovation right after they repaired it
00:21:41 renovation right after they repaired it did you still hear whistling through the wind a bad masala ho but if it's offered mr. P yes do you remember what they did to try to repair it
00:21:52 to try to repair it diaphragm wrong most would have a salvo no they they put a material something
00:22:07 no they they put a material something that sticks really stick yes could you do it it's like foam right well in a
00:22:22 do it it's like foam right well in a candle compression okay um now on page three of your statement if you go back
00:22:33 three of your statement if you go back to that
00:22:39 under communal area I just want to ask you about that you say and if you could
00:22:50 you about that you say and if you could please translate and let him interpreter that would be M could you eat grain you say there were lazy lines yes I can see our history sheet mcafee and yes she
00:23:02 our history sheet mcafee and yes she came in you know muscle man how do you feel it though I [ __ ] feel no yeah okay you say in the second sentence there there is some sort of fire alarm
00:23:13 there there is some sort of fire alarm at the bottom what is that no in the fear Norman in Ladra Harika Phyllis fell so well no no no one men in Berlin had a
00:23:27 so well no no no one men in Berlin had a command so fighter hurry I think they had the fire alarm in the lobby but we did not hear it right what did you see
00:23:40 did not hear it right what did you see in the lobby that made you think there was a fire alarm surely shift oh and table mat Han and faking it I looked at the ceiling and it
00:23:52 faking it I looked at the ceiling and it was there after the ended the refurbishment I looked at the ceiling and it was there which Lobby do you mean
00:24:05 and it was there which Lobby do you mean the ground floor lobby all the lobby outside yes the ground isn't working
00:24:15 now you say I did not see any fire signs anywhere much effort and yet you showed up yet howdy ba mi Canyon now what did
00:24:28 up yet howdy ba mi Canyon now what did you what do you mean by fire signs they're sure not to be a shout out the heavy fire safety signs are safety signs can I show you a picture which is BL a
00:24:46 quadruple zero two five one six I meant I meant something for disabled people for people with disability right
00:24:57 people for people with disability right in case there is a fire right here is a sign that this is what this I should
00:25:11 sign that this is what this I should tell you what this is this is a photograph taken after the fire bad that has a little heavy of signs between the lifts on the wall at level three in the
00:25:22 lifts on the wall at level three in the building either to hide in idly Sharma who'd been and masada in he talked about lit a Fiat Fiat a bit later I don't know
00:25:38 lit a Fiat Fiat a bit later I don't know I didn't see any of this on floor or three because I used to take the lift right semi- my question is did you ever see a sign like this on your floor
00:25:52 it'll hide on a table - maybe there was something similar but there was nothing for disabled people right but just on
00:26:04 for disabled people right but just on just focusing on this sign did you ever see this sign in the building it can't remember okay
00:26:14 did you did you were you aware of any plan that if there was a fire in the
00:26:26 plan that if there was a fire in the building
00:26:26 building residents should stay in their flats not that gallium and no Kim she sure did and no is a sir here how do you Bill him up now yet yet I
00:26:37 how do you Bill him up now yet yet I analyst again and your coffee shop Co no no did anybody ever give you any fire safety advice Hal had an out there gives a deadly makalah mental hari ignore no
00:26:52 a deadly makalah mental hari ignore no as at June 2017 what was your understanding about what you should do if there was a fire somewhere else in the building
00:27:04 the building Sheila had a local Jana Julia herself in a sabotage antique if Kent isn't the phone jool isn't a Melissa sorry Harry I wasn't expecting a fire so I didn't
00:27:21 I wasn't expecting a fire so I didn't even think about it right okay
00:27:33 no like I'm now going to ask you about the events of the night there's a house on it to be happy Lane oh can you go to page four of your statement and you say
00:27:45 page four of your statement and you say in paragraph 12 can you throw my down
00:27:58 for many massage drops that you went to bed early about 10:30 p.m. so that's the start you then turn over the page and a
00:28:10 start you then turn over the page and a paragraph 13 you say at about one fifth let's just turn the page there paragraph 13 at about 1:15 a.m. my eldest daughter
00:28:21 13 at about 1:15 a.m. my eldest daughter not on my bed well are not on my bedroom door so that even so I thought about and she said the fire is building a little in Morphy how do you know exactly
00:28:34 in Morphy how do you know exactly yeah that's correct so my correct my question is um how how do you how did you know how do you remember that it was 115 am gifted sucker and milk and sour
00:28:45 115 am gifted sucker and milk and sour when the home star shining [Music]
00:28:55 we were sleeping I asked my wife what time it was because I heard the knock at the door and she said it's 1:15 because
00:29:17 the door and she said it's 1:15 because it was Ramadan we broke our fast and we had in the evening we ate at night and we sleep so we get up in the morning to
00:29:29 we sleep so we get up in the morning to eat at dawn yes and also to drink some water I thought that she woke up she's
00:29:41 water I thought that she woke up she's waking us up to get up and eat and drink see so you thought it was good it was eating time already do you know what woke her up daddy sure why huh
00:29:53 woke her up daddy sure why huh surely why
00:30:02 [Music]
00:30:06 she was she and her sisters were awake because it was Ramadan and they were not sleeping they were talking to their friends till they they stay awake till
00:30:19 friends till they they stay awake till dawn in there for ya till the morning right
00:30:26 right you would not lie Sam they talk long and then we eat and they eat and go to bed right okay
00:30:37 bed right okay now you say that your daughter wallah said the fire is building and what did you understand she said to you a little luck and honey
00:30:49 she said to you a little luck and honey I had it done
00:31:03 I wasn't expecting that I told them not to do anything I I did not have time to
00:31:15 to do anything I I did not have time to use my clutches so I really walked on my knees to the front door and then it gave
00:31:33 knees to the front door and then it gave me the clutches and I took them from them can I stop you can I just ask my question again do you remember what your what your daughter said to you does that concern little pintuck she said there is
00:31:47 concern little pintuck she said there is a fire in the building fire in the building and you said or you say in your statement I thought she was wrong if you look in the second line no heat on you
00:31:58 look in the second line no heat on you yes why did you think she was wrong literally shot I didn't know I wasn't expecting a fire to happen I wasn't
00:32:09 expecting a fire to happen I wasn't expecting any fire because I was sleeping and I was started when she woke me up with the sir with the issue okay
00:32:23 me up with the sir with the issue okay and then you go if you go a little bit further damn paragraph 13 you say I open the bedroom door and next to my right side I saw a pipe where technicians do
00:32:36 side I saw a pipe where technicians do work where the stopcock is I saw a bit of smoke
00:32:40 of smoke what the Vatican will be Holland ya mean she said and mu will it be still right and I mean how old she was mobile out of
00:32:52 and I mean how old she was mobile out of me I I saw a hole I see not a pipe I said I saw a hole I saw a hole okay could you tell us as as in as much
00:33:05 could you tell us as as in as much detail as you can where you saw the smoke at that time you could most would wait until the hurry I opened the door
00:33:28 wait until the hurry I opened the door it was on my right up in the ceiling there was like a hole for the boiler or the Pipers fights I don't know a pipe
00:33:40 the Pipers fights I don't know a pipe made me water pipe or something like that and there was black smoke coming out coming out into the into into the
00:33:52 out coming out into the into into the lobby into the lobby of your of your flat outside of so let me
00:34:03 we're going to have to stick to the well
00:34:11 I'm sorry I I know you understand a lot of the questions of being with you and they know that instinctively you want to answer in English but it won't work very well sticky for the transcribe I will
00:34:23 well sticky for the transcribe I will have to do it in the ordinary ways so let the question be translated for you then give your answer in Arabic and then we'll hear the interpreters translation
00:34:43 the the hall was next to the door in up in the ceiling in the lobby okay now let's just take a step if I can just take a step back so you open the bedroom
00:34:56 take a step back so you open the bedroom door and which word where do you go into from your bedroom fact I what the father had babe
00:35:03 had babe ought to know no Wayne was but I have a to know with the wind a holla at the end I went to the entrance and I talked to
00:35:20 I went to the entrance and I talked to my daughters and I asked them what's happening they said there's a fire and I told them not to do anything I opened
00:35:32 told them not to do anything I opened the door
00:35:41 and I opened the door and the smoke was coming out of a hole in the ceiling okay now see they're taking it step by step
00:35:53 now see they're taking it step by step you open the bedroom door did you see smoke at that time a few but then what effort I had babe what if it in norm B beta Kent a hellish effort she the harm
00:36:04 beta Kent a hellish effort she the harm no okay so you open the did you see any smoke in your flat at that time sure that you the hungry bait bucket it not okay so you open the front door is that
00:36:15 okay so you open the front door is that when you first see smoke now one more I shifted the hunt the worth of at the head level mmm in will be I see yes yes that's correct okay so I see okay that
00:36:27 that's correct okay so I see okay that can we look there at paragraph 15
00:36:42 and you say you open the front door and you saw smoke in the top part of the ceiling Zaki babe I'm Amy OSHA fit the harm feet are not so yes that's correct
00:36:56 harm feet are not so yes that's correct is that the first time you saw smoke I do one mother of a children to hunt VI yes that's correct okay now in the top part of the ceiling if you can remember where exactly did you see the smoke
00:37:07 where exactly did you see the smoke Fiala when Anne was butchered the floor
00:37:16 it wasn't that at the ceiling as such it was on the wall which is perpendicular to the ceiling on the wall which is perpendicular to the ceiling and there
00:37:27 perpendicular to the ceiling and there was a hole in it a hole in in what when and when elkanah mahatma thought it was
00:37:38 and when elkanah mahatma thought it was a hole that was done for the pipes water pipes to go through okay which
00:37:53 and there was a door next to it for maintenance in case they need to do any work they open that door right how big was the whole district vir
00:38:05 right how big was the whole district vir can alpha diameter 25 centimeter I'm not
00:38:18 can alpha diameter 25 centimeter I'm not sure 25 centimeter diameter I'm not sure okay
00:38:22 okay I did the whole have a pipe coming through it okay no enemy bomb - totally oh they were inside it okay and which
00:38:35 oh they were inside it okay and which direction was the smoke traveling in that you saw hospital Han ki Fateh Adana by a TJ gambrel up up into the lobby to
00:38:49 by a TJ gambrel up up into the lobby to the ceiling up to the ceiling it coming into the lobby from the whole is that right a museum in the lobby man laughs what was it oh yes okay right now in
00:39:01 what was it oh yes okay right now in paragraph 15 you say it was coming from a hole where the pipes outside my flat next to my front door there's some kinda [Music]
00:39:11 [Music] Shepherd II had the tradition and J I mean that could happen and a big hairy shitty had a baby mmm
00:39:22 shitty had a baby mmm yeah that's correct and you say this is where the smoke is coming from a mean horn is yet the huh yes how far below the ceiling was the hole you saw the
00:39:34 the ceiling was the hole you saw the smoke coming from is Abdallah Alun ffred a dish intimacy if he been a self Wilfred
00:39:44 it's an opening it's not the whole is as such it's an opening right that they did that was done on purpose for the you know for work right and half-sister how
00:39:58 know for work right and half-sister how far below the ceiling was the opening myself I've been a set of will fat had a game 4 to 5 centimeter I don't believe
00:40:11 game 4 to 5 centimeter I don't believe it was that wide I can't remember exactly okay but not not not that why right
00:40:19 right so quite is this right quite close to the ceiling the hole was close to the ceiling and my fat packing a teddy bear and I can't remember exactly right and what color
00:40:31 remember exactly right and what color was the smoke hard black black and how much smoke in the lobby was there that you saw when you open the front door whatever that may become a me at this
00:40:43 whatever that may become a me at this ship at the han be below me there wasn't much to smoke right there I want to get back and ask you about the the the
00:40:55 back and ask you about the the the cupboard that you refer to in your statement in the third line of paragraph 15 can I show you a picture which is BL a quadruple zero two five one for
00:41:09 believe that because you can let's order [Music]
00:41:22 and
00:41:26 now this is a photograph taken after the fire on floor six the member has a little Johnny D remember D honey don't
00:41:37 little Johnny D remember D honey don't and we can see a cupboard opposite the lifts there we do know is that the
00:41:50 lifts there we do know is that the cupboard you're talking about hey Berta Berta know it wasn't this one not that one okay do you know can you see anything in that picture which looks
00:42:01 see anything in that picture which looks like the cupboard you're talking about
00:42:21 it's not here no I cannot see it here okay
00:42:29 now you say in your statement that the there are pipes that's the enemy which would go into my flat in the middle if
00:42:40 would go into my flat in the middle if you go back to paragraph 15 you say I don't know what these pipes are for madly triangle in any view these pipes go to my flat
00:42:52 go to my flat LRD yes there are three holes for the pipes the covered is near the lifts an appeal will come in a few Kozeny had to
00:43:05 appeal will come in a few Kozeny had to learn myself maasai yes do the pipes come out of the cupboard into your flat Helen amid a marriage war and animals
00:43:16 Helen amid a marriage war and animals any Allah shall attack
00:43:22 lift they come out of the cupboard opposite the left right
00:43:34 I don't know I'm not an engineer so I don't know if it was something for hot water but I don't know okay and was this like coming out of the cupboard or was
00:43:45 like coming out of the cupboard or was it coming from the pipes or around the pipes I had let the hunger within there how did German lasagna of you I didn't
00:43:58 how did German lasagna of you I didn't see anything right and when you opened the front door at that time with a lamp with the lights in the lobby on whatever they had a one matter kendo module that ability yes and how
00:44:11 kendo module that ability yes and how close to your front door was the smoke that you could see addition mercy faking it - Motilal don t be on our baby the baby made a dish
00:44:30 it's when I you come out of the house is directly opposite directly opposite on the right side okay and how much smoke from the ceiling down
00:44:41 from the ceiling down did you see oh is but whether give you the hunt a dish of did the honeys luminous earth
00:44:57 I don't know really how much smoke there was because at the time I made my decision my children were getting dressed and my wife was getting dressed
00:45:10 dressed and my wife was getting dressed and they were going down the stairs okay and did you could you tell could you tell how much smoke was coming in was it
00:45:21 tell how much smoke was coming in was it coming in a lot or was it just coming in a little I mean this bit look at me did the hon forget old honkin can be a bacterial Amish way and it wasn't a lot
00:45:34 bacterial Amish way and it wasn't a lot of smoke but there was smoke that it's something that showed that there was fire okay then you say I shut the front
00:45:48 fire okay then you say I shut the front door and tell the children to get back to bed it's a carrot and maybe meat or telling you know anymore yes what made
00:46:00 telling you know anymore yes what made you decide to stay in the flat English I heard another option because I heard sirens of a fire brigade downstairs and
00:46:16 sirens of a fire brigade downstairs and I thought that they have sorted the problem
00:46:26 and then 30 minutes after when I opened my door again I saw that the smoke was quite quite a lot and automatically I
00:46:39 quite quite a lot and automatically I told them to go downstairs okay now in your statement still in paragraph 15 you say in the next sentence my youngest
00:46:50 say in the next sentence my youngest child touched the wall and said it was hot
00:46:54 hot Minton lost virginianus it hey - I lit and no harm me yes that's correct no do you know which wall she touched
00:47:05 no do you know which wall she touched that if I hate here let me sit on the living room wall opposite the window okay
00:47:14 okay perhaps we can have the bat mat back the plant which is a meaty triple-zero was where I yeah on the side where I put the beds okay if we could have the plan
00:47:26 the beds okay if we could have the plan of that back please which is M et triple zero one two five nine three could you just tell us which wall she touched and if it's for so long and your head here I'm sit on this one can you describe
00:47:43 I'm sit on this one can you describe where he's pointing it's next to no hydrants
00:47:53 hydrants oh right like hmm yeah here here yeah that will they're here yes here say the internal so the external wall between the lobby and the
00:48:05 external wall between the lobby and the lounge in flat 64 I'm bamboo no I don't hate Albert Hourani it did beds where against the
00:48:20 Hourani it did beds where against the that wall and it was the wall where the beds against which the beds where mmm can I just ask you while we're still on
00:48:32 can I just ask you while we're still on this plan could you identical you'd point out on this plan where the cupboard is the the where the pipes were where you saw the smoke picadillo new windows anymore they went alight women
00:48:45 windows anymore they went alight women at the home at the entrance at the
00:48:58 at the home at the entrance at the entrance if you look at the entrance of the flat yes and here it's on on the copper there is a corner and it's around there before you enter the flat so which
00:49:13 there before you enter the flat so which side of the corridor that the south side of the north side on the north North Side corridor no and as you know way
00:49:27 Side corridor no and as you know way more money yes here on the north side of the corridor
00:49:35 it's where the shower one shower is if you look at up at the shower yes all near the shower and then there is a corner there and there is a small line
00:49:49 corner there and there is a small line yes my name huh hi Ann hi oh you move the cursor up a bit then you got good right I know you
00:50:00 bit then you got good right I know you got on the line yes there's a light no yes no yeah there's the line and then you go along the line go to the right along the line I heard it is yes there
00:50:14 along the line I heard it is yes there by the front right next to your front door you had that activate but I mean yes okay right I see there and the
00:50:26 yes okay right I see there and the witness is identifying the southern based side of the front door into flat 64 okay okay now continuing with the
00:50:38 64 okay okay now continuing with the question we've got the hot wall which you've identified how long after coming back into the flat and you came back into the flat the first time how long
00:50:49 into the flat the first time how long after doing that did your daughter tell you that the wall was hot remember mother huddled in man zi1 murder I'm about additional it like this talk and you'll hate Tommy
00:51:10 straightaway after I came back to the house they were all dressed to leave and she said that she said to me that the wound was hot really did you talk did
00:51:22 wound was hot really did you talk did you touch the wall feel the wall yourself yeah I had no time to do so okay I had decided that they should really leave immediately what had made
00:51:35 really leave immediately what had made you decide to leave immediately she literally done no ether cone abortion I was worried about the the gas
00:51:47 abortion I was worried about the the gas pipes that were in my kitchen right and what was the temperature in your flat like well Hodari bees attack Akif can it
00:51:58 like well Hodari bees attack Akif can it non-normal okay could you smell smoke in the flat by that time we fish at that we had and what consider a chimney hit the heart and know
00:52:16 in paragraph 16 of your statement you say if we can just go back to that my daughter Rowan then saw debris falling down outside Rowan said that it was like
00:52:27 down outside Rowan said that it was like balls of fire I straightaway told everyone to leave as I was worried that the debris would just kill us all in Obon Tarawa if it filled us up what work a little early college
00:52:41 us up what work a little early college and no metal I can know the way rate hurry
00:52:46 hurry still till noon colorimetric why not forward-looking the high and notice Sarah Palin had he and aunt yes that's
00:53:01 Sarah Palin had he and aunt yes that's correct
00:53:01 correct but everything happened within one minute right how long did you spend in the flat
00:53:12 how long did you spend in the flat between opening the front door for the first time and leaving the flat with your family at this show what my bed be a shadow
00:53:21 a shadow I mean what I prefer to had the web a wall murderer I did my rocket what do you mean it's from the front door to my
00:53:32 you mean it's from the front door to my bedroom
00:53:33 bedroom what do you mean how much time did you spend in the flat after you first open the front door and I'm leaving with your family I want you to at this workman
00:53:45 family I want you to at this workman Edmund I want my mother I'm a photographer I mean I made me one minute or two minutes
00:53:53 did you see the debris falling down yourself shifted on content itself a 10-10 flashing I saw flashing so flash out of the window minister big
00:54:07 something lightning right where did you see that we should donate only I just I
00:54:20 see that we should donate only I just I I looked outside the window for for for for a very short you know quickly okay
00:54:34 could you tell could you see the debris yourself and if you came to cheerful unconscious yeah I saw it I saw I saw
00:54:45 unconscious yeah I saw it I saw I saw the deputies when I went downstairs from outside right but not when you were in the flash mr. Feder I was seeing like flashlights and and fireballs fireballs
00:55:01 flashlights and and fireballs fireballs and like a fire lightning
00:55:12 maybe they were going they were hitting the ground in the plane area and
00:55:23 the ground in the plane area and afterwards they will definitely go up okay
00:55:27 okay did you did you get a chance to look out of your window or windows in a flash okay not ducting Michelle and her lungs should be no okay can I ask them to look
00:55:39 should be no okay can I ask them to look at paragraph 17 which is underneath the heading how the fire spread and hairy and dead and you say there when I then
00:55:53 and dead and you say there when I then opened the front door there were black flumes like a black cloud descending it was a heavy black smoke that tasted like a plastic or wooden smell may make in
00:56:04 a plastic or wooden smell may make in fear too hon as well as one ambience on Cain Johan Assad okhane tomahto na hito
00:56:19 Cain Johan Assad okhane tomahto na hito plastique a Amara had to her shock
00:56:27 and I didn't I didn't see any smoke but then I I smelt blastx man okay we'll come to that in just a second my first question is was there more
00:56:44 my first question is was there more smoke when you opened the front door for the second time this isn't the first time yes and went yes how much more smoke if this gave you up - when I
00:57:02 smoke if this gave you up - when I opened the door for the second time the smoke was heavier heavier have you that's why I made the decision and asked
00:57:13 that's why I made the decision and asked my family to leave and I heard some noises downstairs as if there was a lot
00:57:28 noises downstairs as if there was a lot of mess maybe it was the people going down the stairs right when you open the front door for the second time could you see what how far could you see through
00:57:41 see what how far could you see through the smoke tanah Merah what the father had label I made me a dish and myself akin to feature for me de Haan it's the
00:57:52 akin to feature for me de Haan it's the same distance but the smoke was heavy years it was heavier and how far down from the ceiling to the smoke come that on that second account is that you bunk
00:58:03 on that second account is that you bunk innocence of
00:58:10 as you can see it was going along and going up was going along in part yes the smoke was yes where was it going up to
00:58:22 smoke was yes where was it going up to no way Atlanta forth to the ceiling and I did I didn't have the opportunity to stay and look I had to leave
00:58:33 stay and look I had to leave certainly so do you remember what seeing where the smoke was coming from the Quran was between man back in Amman bomb and when I'm issued on it's the same
00:58:45 and when I'm issued on it's the same hole that I was talking about right I was it coming out of the hole more forcefully this time al Moroccan amber Vietnam in Fahad thought the reactor a
00:59:00 Vietnam in Fahad thought the reactor a little bit more okay and you described a plastic or wooden smell lemon no fear me Holly Harper sticky I'm Maddie hey Tasha
00:59:15 it was plastics man okay did it make you cough or did it have any physical effect on you I said I leaked she solids Monroe I said I leak just said yeah I can't remember okay
00:59:32 and then you say in paragraph 17 at the top of page six
00:59:43 this all happened within five minutes and I asked my wife to go with my kids but she refused as she wanted to go down with me as I'm on crutches and need help in oscillate the capacity I antelope
00:59:54 in oscillate the capacity I antelope Meninas okay what finally no you know how I can he you know for the no tensile Bella Union on a like it obeys Maserati yeah yeah that's correct
01:00:05 yeah yeah that's correct okay which is when you say this will happen within five minutes could you explain when the five minutes starts and when it stops module a no-hassle I'd okay Leila Hamza some said that I
01:00:17 okay Leila Hamza some said that I figured for sure no the day Rob said I empty no idea it says since I woke up
01:00:32 empty no idea it says since I woke up and opened the door and closed the door and I decided that they should leave right okay so the whole period between
01:00:43 right okay so the whole period between waking up and and leaving as five minutes yes that's very clear mr. chairman and mr. Kudo we've been going for an hour yes and I wonder whether that might now be an appropriate moment for it probably
01:00:55 be an appropriate moment for it probably is yesterday also I have some of my own right well mister kudiye I think it would be acceptable for us all to have a break at this point oh we're going to
01:01:06 break at this point oh we're going to stop for ten minutes Pastor Dave please don't talk to anyone about your evidence was arrived to the room much is another none sherry could we say quarter past three we can say that yes we will come back
01:01:17 we can say that yes we will come back with Kostas retarted spend this more question
01:01:24 okay you go to the outside she'll say what's the rush take your time
01:01:55 all right 315 mm
01:14:33 now mr. kudos on his way but mr. whether you've fought here riots I hope this is working tolerably well he gets a bit
01:14:48 working tolerably well he gets a bit over enthusiastic about of course thank you
01:14:52 you we've also been able to rustle yes these are going money once you see that improvement if you don't get to do some signal will you semaphore me
01:15:23 all right you comfortable yeah ready to get on you've got a microphone now so that you got to see our technician so we shouldn't get good good sound very good
01:15:34 shouldn't get good good sound very good yes mr. Kudo thank you very much for coming back to us um I just want to ask you a question about the density the thickness of the smoke you saw when you came out of your flat for the second
01:15:45 came out of your flat for the second time chi you've used a smoke descriptor in your statement can I ask you to see that please it's inq 406 page 2
01:16:02 descriptor was a and you in your state Alan well justjust wait to the question
01:16:14 Alan well justjust wait to the question yeah I think in your statement you said that the thickness was level B ABC a level a you think it was a okay
01:16:33 right thank you um now you then say in paragraph 17 as we were in it before I just go back to that on page six in the
01:16:44 just go back to that on page six in the third line down I left with the kids sorry we don't have anything on the screen some reason mr. coudair being doesn't have his statement of right
01:17:07 because
01:17:12 yeah that's fine thank you right thank you very much good makes it say page six of your statement paragraph 17 four lines down from the three lines down from the top you say I left with the
01:17:24 from the top you say I left with the kids and my wife checked to see if the lift was working but it was out of service there a good mind here to associate the Khazar masada yesterday
01:17:35 associate the Khazar masada yesterday well Lincoln came my mother yes that's correct
01:17:39 correct yeah no you all left the flat who was the last member of your family to leave the flat do you remember my wife shut
01:17:54 the flat do you remember my wife shut the door
01:17:54 the door they went before me and I followed them
01:17:59 and she checked the lift so I could to see if I could use it I see and then I looked at the lift and
01:18:11 see and then I looked at the lift and was out of service both lifts right you say my front door did not shut automatically my wife shut the door within the massacre till kiyoung so easy
01:18:23 within the massacre till kiyoung so easy t he is that gay little babe yeah that's correct
01:18:25 correct my question is did your front door ever close automatically for all the time you lived in flat 64 and in entity one second a unique Helen Keaney sucker it's
01:18:37 second a unique Helen Keaney sucker it's a Carol bitter partying Abajo no you just turn it off and then we won't be disturbed again
01:18:52 thank you it's just you think you'd better ask that question yeah yes you say my front door did not short shuttle to matically my wife shut the door and my question is did your front door ever
01:19:04 my question is did your front door ever close automatically for all the time you lived at flat 64 Graham Phillips is Helen Keeney SEC cotillion she murder are ever done no no did anybody ever
01:19:19 are ever done no no did anybody ever tell you that it was supposed to shut automatically had an Shihab but a Norman L AM a fraud and I circuited got here no
01:19:29 and when you came out on to into the lobby on the ninth floor did you see anybody else there with what the sort of Allah will be chef it hadn't
01:19:41 the sort of Allah will be chef it hadn't be the topic in this I thought we'd chef at Island she on the ninth floor norm on the mental note you say or your wife
01:19:54 the mental note you say or your wife checked the lift to see to see that it was working and she said that it wasn't working did she tell you it wasn't working nor as I was a delight the headline was out at the time student I
01:20:05 headline was out at the time student I made up a little like an homage to him
01:20:12 musically at nerve-racking than the plot command a checked it because so so we can I can take it with my children to go
01:20:23 can I can take it with my children to go downstairs and I checked it also you checked it as well what happened did you press the button Keefe and I just looked at it and it
01:20:35 Keefe and I just looked at it and it says out of service right where does it say out so when in going baby went I'm the one out of service yes top of the lift top of the lift was
01:20:46 yes top of the lift top of the lift was a fixed sign or was it electronics are electroni my shadow safety except Tony most valiant out of service electronic signs
01:20:54 signs out of service right which lifts sorry there are two lifts on there both of them both of them were after service I need to model in my spot yes right and
01:21:11 need to model in my spot yes right and if the lift had been working would you have used it is a massage Allah knows attention our contestant to come on of course
01:21:26 while you were in the lobby but before you went into the staircase do you remember hearing a noise like an engine noise or fan noise what the interval
01:21:38 noise or fan noise what the interval ob-ivan Matins and a litera as much hot metal so that we thought matter how I heard the fire alarm but it
01:21:52 matter how I heard the fire alarm but it was a very weak noise right did you did you hear like a ventilation noise or fan noise going there we are
01:22:05 noise going there we are maja no have passed we saw that I need a favor
01:22:15 favor I heard some voices coming from downstairs and the voices are aware quite deep fire alarm also but the fire
01:22:31 quite deep fire alarm also but the fire alarm noise was very weak Rafael and Jamie Sierra to certain random occurrence - I thought that this fire alarm noise was coming from the fire
01:22:45 alarm noise was coming from the fire brigade
01:22:45 brigade sirens because the fire Iran was not working in the building no so is it possible my flat yeah when
01:23:00 no so is it possible my flat yeah when you say the fire alarm is very weak could it be that you heard a smoke alarm in someone's family who never know and so ends our i defied atomic turkey and i've halibut in can hide the ends are
01:23:14 i've halibut in can hide the ends are lon
01:23:16 lon Donny nietzermann and yeah of course that's but the the noise was very weak
01:23:29 that's but the the noise was very weak right okay now still sticking with paragraph 17 of your statement mr. kuda you you say five lines down from the top
01:23:40 you you say five lines down from the top I knew I would have to use the stairs with my crutches but luckily there was no smoke on the stairs at that time there was a plastic burning smell all the way down the staircase the fire door I opened on my floor and it shut behind
01:23:52 I opened on my floor and it shut behind me now I just want to ask you about that the door can and they are very finicky stamina that was my kzt will again can i
01:24:06 stamina that was my kzt will again can i or if a new lesson much more starting it's a black guy said he will again
01:24:16 McKeen well how's Emma Kim Chi I adore Han and adhiraj legacy theory had she plastic number three eight hundred
01:24:28 plastic number three eight hundred dollars not ahead were BL hurrying fat at all was a camp tomorrow yeah yeah that's correct okay um my question is did you open the
01:24:41 okay um my question is did you open the door from the lobby into the staircase yourself until if at the hijazi and a babe
01:24:47 babe min
01:24:48 min Omar Allah - Roxy yeah yes you did did it close behind you do you remember suckling babe with our kids that guy can't remember okay
01:25:02 kids that guy can't remember okay honestly I can't remember when you first got into the stairwell do you did you notice any smoke straightaway I'm all muscle Abdallah
01:25:13 straightaway I'm all muscle Abdallah that is a hazard in the fetal han eyelid forward no no with the lights on in the stairwell when you went you know what yes of course and when you enter in
01:25:25 yes of course and when you enter in could you immediately smell plastic burning what the hell that is Alan for rush I'm a tree habitat and the sit-ins at that it wasn't on the ninth floor but as was the going get
01:25:37 floor but as was the going get downstairs yes right okay and when we go on to paragraph 18 you say in the second
01:25:49 on to paragraph 18 you say in the second line it took me a long time to get down maybe fifteen to twenty minutes and people were pushing past me miss Kay non-beneficial hallelujah and but didn't
01:26:03 non-beneficial hallelujah and but didn't run in saticon for help suddenly maybe a fluid this must vote for cantinas a memorial it adventuring it's not really memorial happiness come hallowed far I
01:26:15 memorial happiness come hallowed far I believe but I was in a shock so I can't really estimate the time and I was letting people pass me and so so past me
01:26:30 letting people pass me and so so past me I putting my back onto opposite the rain right was there anything about the
01:26:42 right was there anything about the stairs that made it easier or hard for you to go down she highly-efficient sob like a new soul among candy it was very the if the the
01:26:56 among candy it was very the if the the stairs we're a very tight tight me narrow no okay and you say three lines down no one helped me I was sitting on
01:27:07 down no one helped me I was sitting on the stairs to rest before carrying on how many times did you stop to rest do you think intima and sounder coolican thunka thunka on a dinner tomorrow
01:27:17 I fell down twice you fell down yes really I remember that now because I'm finishing up in my statement now I remember that I need not mention this in
01:27:29 remember that I need not mention this in my statement right I'm sorry to hear that
01:27:34 big fish near and also that's why I said that also on the stairs I was worried that somebody will knock me down or push me and I was water going down the stairs
01:27:50 me and I was water going down the stairs on my back but on my back I'm sitting on my shoe
01:27:56 my shoe and what sort of a time at the end is that if it ends at any one time and then afterwards and afterwards I am managed
01:28:07 afterwards and afterwards I am managed to go down the stairs using my crutches and when they were less people down the stairs
01:28:22 I mean this must mean that there are it is my sort of turn what if my and then when I hear people on the stairs I had
01:28:34 when I hear people on the stairs I had to stop yeah coming down the stairs yes when I hate people coming down the stairs I have to stop yes was there enough was there enough space on the
01:28:46 enough was there enough space on the staircase for people to get past you you can if you can I say few things I mean
01:28:57 can if you can I say few things I mean just make him down the heck I was I was in that's this position so people can walk me out behind me right kind of just
01:29:11 walk me out behind me right kind of just for the transcript the witness made a movement whereby he turned and faced the wall laterally and indicated that people would pass him nothing that passed his back especially some people were
01:29:25 back especially some people were carrying a children there was a man carrying a child so I let him walk behind me no I'm from from the action
01:29:37 behind me no I'm from from the action that you just demonstrated I understood that you were holding the handrail yeah is that right with your bank back towards the stern yes yeah right back towards the stairs not facing the wall
01:29:48 towards the stairs not facing the wall yes I see
01:29:53 and on the way down did you notice any difference in temperature in the air as you came down until nasal aha certain officiating here
01:30:04 until nasal aha certain officiating here will hider on mobiso [ __ ] - you know most Americans didn't receive that I didn't think about that I just wanted to get downstairs as soon
01:30:15 I just wanted to get downstairs as soon as possible and it may be the same answer but let me try it anyway as you came down did you notice any smoke in the stairwell there one is in lower
01:30:26 the stairwell there one is in lower house of the piece of the Harned that are no on your way down did you notice whether any other any doors were open
01:30:39 whether any other any doors were open from lobbies into the stairwell until nestled at the Hekla ha certain official web web gerousia math - ha min will be 8 la la Raj
01:30:50 la la Raj I didn't notice you didn't did you see any fire fighters coming past you wonder why - you for judo gel op the Nana up for a year I'm humeral head Doug mom a
01:31:01 for a year I'm humeral head Doug mom a sec I can't remember
01:31:08 now at paragraph 19 I don't I don't believe anybody last time okay
01:31:22 believe anybody last time okay at the end of paragraph 18 and just get back to that the very end you say it was hot going down the stairs and then look in now this is page bottom
01:31:34 and then look in now this is page bottom of page six end of paragraph 18 last sentence you say it was between the
01:31:46 sentence you say it was between the fifth floor diem maybe I'm not sure of the name and the floor calf issue if you had a second and I can't remember exactly on which floor it was hot I
01:31:57 exactly on which floor it was hot I can't remember maybe forth between four fifth and fourth I can't remember okay my question was really whether it was you getting hot with the effort of coming down or you noticed the air
01:32:10 coming down or you noticed the air temperature getting hotter while in no Olympic attempt to saw double header or missional just a long time ago sure wobble I'm mom mission no no sir
01:32:21 little T of the milkman Hoffman III don't know really maybe because I was going downstairs because I was tired or because I was scared I don't know now in
01:32:37 because I was scared I don't know now in paragraph 19 of your statement at the bottom you say when I got down to the entrance of the tower I saw a firefighter in the entrance in the tower and he said do you need any help but I said I was okay what the
01:32:50 help but I said I was okay what the world not hurt chef at the original of at 40 oh really matter certainly but that Kashima through a lot
01:33:01 certainly but that Kashima through a lot we should have okay mister the surname to know any okay I'm fine because I was I was down there
01:33:12 I'm fine because I was I was down there downstairs already fall for Sunday he was the thing which should have been done is firefighters going upstairs to help me did he
01:33:23 help me did he my question is did did the firefighter ask you which flat you had come from so I like mine yeah yeah yeah no did you tell them in Tunisia Algeria madam ambassador an echidna surjective
01:33:36 madam ambassador an echidna surjective shift and a FIFA that I've had how are they done and it will be a gift reject metallic I know I didn't tell them and
01:33:49 metallic I know I didn't tell them and when I see that they were firefighters downstairs in the lobby and in on the stairs I was very surprised that none of them went upstairs right I'm turning to
01:34:02 them went upstairs right I'm turning to the top of page seven still in paragraph 19 you say there was no smoke in the entrance area gave me the hand yes and
01:34:15 entrance area gave me the hand yes and then you say I didn't see any ventilation fans in the entrance area at all much of it uh yeah way mischief it oh yeah whoo weh-weh be
01:34:29 mischief it oh yeah whoo weh-weh be unreasonable not much Pilate might get it in the theater I did not look to see if there is any I just wanted to leave I
01:34:42 if there is any I just wanted to leave I see
01:34:43 see okay did you hear the sound of a fan no I can't remember okay and I'm going to show you a number of CCTV images taken
01:34:54 show you a number of CCTV images taken from a camera on the ground floor ground for tower and we've seen quite a lot of these before with firefighters so it they're not particularly distressing although they may bring back memories of
01:35:06 although they may bring back memories of the night feet for you and for others do you feel able to look at those okay okay I'm going to show you three in sequence and what I'll do is I'll give
01:35:18 sequence and what I'll do is I'll give you the adjusted tines and that's the best estimate we can give with the help of our experts for the real-time on the camera first of all chemical e's have
01:35:29 camera first of all chemical e's have inq for 39
01:35:44 and that is an adjusted time of oh one 36:21 taken by camera two at the foot of
01:35:56 36:21 taken by camera two at the foot of the stairs on the ground floor of Granville town can you identify you in that picture pick about a fella Horlicks yes yes you and do you remember seeing
01:36:08 yes yes you and do you remember seeing two firefighters saying that's why I remember that I saw one right happy to
01:36:20 remember that I saw one right happy to be honest okay and it looks were you having a conversation with those firefighters the person who is moving
01:36:39 firefighters the person who is moving gear his hand is showing me where to go right okay and if we can look at the next one please which is inq four four
01:36:50 next one please which is inq four four zero this is some camera three taken in the lobby looking into the lobby with an adjusted time mark of oh 136 33 can you
01:37:05 adjusted time mark of oh 136 33 can you identify yourself kicked out a fella Hanako yes of course and we can see you in the picture everyone seems to be looking up know what you're all looking
01:37:17 looking up know what you're all looking at that don't know no for I shall meet the level of I don't know I can't remember
01:37:25 remember I hope you honest that country monitor right and in the last one the third one which is
01:37:34 which is inq 441 if we can please have that
01:37:41 that's camera one with an adjusted time of o1 36 38 say 136 minutes 38 seconds and can you identify yourself in that
01:37:54 and can you identify yourself in that that remember guitar yes right so to the best of your recollection does that give us the time at which you you exited the
01:38:06 us the time at which you you exited the tower do you think you could die about that and then what empty 90 and if that detector around that time maybe right
01:38:19 detector around that time maybe right now in your statement at paragraph 19 if we get back to it yeah does a parish in the last sentence at the top of page 7
01:38:34 you say I left the building at 1:45 a.m. get up get on the South Sea I think then about five five minutes later you're not
01:38:49 about five five minutes later you're not later than that right so help me now I've shown you the pictures with the adjusted times on them you know do you think that those times are correct I love for my done what do you know me
01:39:08 maybe Dan hundred people I'm not 100% sure made me to be honest right you then
01:39:21 sure made me to be honest right you then say paragraph 20 once I got out of the bill out of the building he told me to go to the right of the building due to the fire a lot and I'm not only home
01:39:34 the fire a lot and I'm not only home with that now many I mean I'm happy yes that's correct who told you that I mean I'm not a fan what if opposites trophy hunter hearty
01:39:46 what if opposites trophy hunter hearty dinner and it was that there was a firefighter standing outside the building he asked me to go to the right
01:39:59 building he asked me to go to the right because there is there were some fireballs coming down right and where did you go I went to where he indicated
01:40:14 did you go I went to where he indicated me to go cannon serves to let him stand unit opposite of my wife and my children were waiting for me opposite to the building opposite the
01:40:25 opposite to the building opposite the building on which side
01:40:29 main entrance main entrance were they waiting under the covered walkway oh but it are sinking more much hitting up its on the pavement opposite female is it or
01:40:41 on the pavement opposite female is it or not nothing awful it was on the pavement opposite the building because there were fireballs coming down they couldn't stand just outside up right you say there were fireballs coming down did you
01:40:52 there were fireballs coming down did you see the fuzz it's coming down yourself
01:40:56 yes from which side of the building did you then did you see them coming I mean I guess your harsh a phenomenological Center pleasantly it's on the site of the leisure center right yeah it was
01:41:23 the leisure center right yeah it was because of the direction of the wind I was trying to avoid the fireballs so I went to the extreme right and then I continued this I see and when you came
01:41:34 continued this I see and when you came out to the entrance could you see your wife and family in front of you you know what how does it diminish shift yes and did you did you feel the effects
01:41:47 yes and did you did you feel the effects of smoke I said that that serum at the Hanalei Akash us about you know
01:41:58 I wish them to the frustrated upper sitting out but I have at the moment I'm I'm suffering from some breathing problems
01:42:08 problems it is not very serious that's my dad financially it is recent and I don't know what's the reason behind it right okay mr. cooter I've got no further
01:42:24 okay mr. cooter I've got no further questions for you mr. chairman there may be one or two which reviewing my legs I may need to ask yeah or we may get from some from other same guns were asked for a short break there's any alternative to
01:42:35 a short break there's any alternative to our think you think you'd the witness I think you the witness well look look we said ten minutes that should give you plenty of time yes he should it gives him time to it gives him time
01:42:46 it gives him time to it gives him time yeah absolutely mr. good Oh mr. Miller doesn't think he's cocky but sometimes when he's talked about it he has so
01:43:01 when he's talked about it he has so we're going to have ten minute break now
01:43:05 to let mr. minute think about that they affect its ambitious and please don't talk to anyone about your evidence when you're out of the room all right and
01:43:17 you're out of the room all right and we'll resume at five to four what you like to get with the optional
01:43:51 right some 5 mm but he's Mikey
01:53:47 you
01:53:55 well mr. millet there is there are one or two yes well mr. coudair I think is on his way thank you
01:54:47 all right I think mr. Milind has a few more questions mr. Kudo thank you very much for coming back to this is not one or two
01:54:55 or two I'm digital I'm sorry um after you and your family left the tower did anybody ask you or your family which flat or
01:55:06 ask you or your family which flat or floor you'd come down from and badminton racquet until I did that no Hal had answer allocate him an eye at obg ssme
01:55:18 answer allocate him an eye at obg ssme no no what the portable document cellular Kimani the police asked us they asked us which floor they came from and
01:55:29 asked us which floor they came from and also they took our names and when we went to put a bellow also right I see when did the police take those details from you mad woman killed by unit
01:55:40 from you mad woman killed by unit badminton the police on us after we occur I can't remember exactly but it's after an hour and a half of us being downstairs right okay how do you
01:55:51 downstairs right okay how do you remember it was an hour and a half if that dissenter they were pushing us backwards and till we got to the leisure
01:56:06 backwards and till we got to the leisure center I see I didn't I don't know people said condemnation people how anybody who doesn't keep a say at home you had come back on stereo Fame and then we were
01:56:17 back on stereo Fame and then we were told that they were buses that they were going to comment because up to take us to a place where we can rest was massage but this did not happen know what at
01:56:28 but this did not happen know what at what point did you tell the policeman about the details of the flat of floor you come down from Mt no tuluyan eland shorty in Davos Illinois as a giant
01:56:40 shorty in Davos Illinois as a giant Anakin is a nurse and caffeine a sixtieth Ahad solution as minimally block hmm [ __ ] hey hey there were a lot of people downstairs they were asking
01:56:52 of people downstairs they were asking who lives in which block and they were pointing to the groups according to where we're living at what point in time
01:57:04 where we're living at what point in time was that do you think ok t-bone hide the empty house I'll say I am well how are you getting to London I can't remember really let me try this way how long
01:57:16 really let me try this way how long after you left the tower did you give the policeman your name your address Padma directed enough additional title line wind Shorty not Mossad that about
01:57:27 line wind Shorty not Mossad that about silence ok home so an hour or 3/4 of an hour I can't remember exactly ok ok mr. Kudo I have a final question this one are hard apart from what you've
01:57:39 this one are hard apart from what you've put in your your written statement and apart from what you've told us this afternoon
01:57:44 afternoon is there anything else that you observed on the night of the fire that you think it's important that the Chairman should know my love LM doing it and if I'd
01:57:55 know my love LM doing it and if I'd attack effect ahead a lot I tell you fear she Intelli hostile Elizabeth are parallel and Camino apparently listening tomorrow yes of
01:58:09 apparently listening tomorrow yes of course our hope in the flood Manhattan Leslie honey half happy net and be more being beautiful it first of all they should not accommodate disabled people
01:58:23 should not accommodate disabled people in on a floor that is a high floor but in the foot a corner exam and Martin is
01:58:34 in the foot a corner exam and Martin is a monitor Schwentke knowledge the shrimp shiny nuts in the cup from disabled people's Iconium Sahara and then also the stairs the stairs should be wider to
01:58:45 the stairs the stairs should be wider to enabled to enable disabled people to go down the stairs Hara and then also to
01:58:59 down the stairs Hara and then also to ensure that the firefighters have a properly trained and have more experience in dealing for dealing in such incidents custom content animal
01:59:11 such incidents custom content animal might mean a lot for there's a hint of his content m-madam animal matter a lot and homeless man oh well how can he have a face of a mechanic it was not me and
01:59:23 a face of a mechanic it was not me and also we heard that the information that was related that who the head the office was from the fire brigade was not
01:59:34 was from the fire brigade was not correctly done and also you know it
01:59:46 correctly done and also you know it hammer maharaja GT after Hassan Koon and yet open her and I'm not a Tamil Mahara Dreamsicle desire and also to be
02:00:01 Mahara Dreamsicle desire and also to be able to deal with incidents when there is fire such fires and to deal in the proper way
02:00:13 scooter thank you very much it remains me to thank you very much for your evidence this afternoon has been a Streamy America we're extremely grateful to you for coming and assisting its young Coast occations so thank you Hakka
02:00:25 young Coast occations so thank you Hakka durka
02:00:25 durka and I'd add my thanks to those of mr. millet it's really important and helpful for us to hear about your experience on the night in question and to hear about
02:00:36 the night in question and to hear about the conditions in that as you experienced so thank you very much for coming to tell us all about it see what comes here thank you and now you are free to go and I should say thank you to
02:00:48 free to go and I should say thank you to melamine temperature as well thank you very much would you like to go with the ushers and please
02:01:01 thank you very much take your time
02:01:18 yes mr. millet mr. chairman that concludes the evidence for the day and we start again subject to you mr. chairman tomorrow morning 10 o'clock with the next witness who mr. Rawat will
02:01:29 with the next witness who mr. Rawat will be taking right well thank you very much well we've used a day quite fully yes it was a good thing so we'll break now and
02:01:40 was a good thing so we'll break now and resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow with our next witness it's very well very good thank you very much