Omar Alhaj Ali, resident of flat 112 on floor 14, gives evidence about his experience during the fire, including seeing flames from the fourth or fifth floor, smoke conditions in the communal area, and the firefighters' instructions to stay in the flat.
00:00:06 Good morning everyone. Welcome to today's hearing. We're going to continue hearing evidence from those who were inside the tower at the time of the fire, in particular flat 113.
00:00:18 fire, in particular flat 113. Yes, Mr. Robert. Uh good morning, Mr. Chairman. Um may I uh call Omar Alhaji. Thank you.
00:00:49 I swear by Allah I swear by Allah that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth. Truth. The whole truth. The whole truth. And nothing but the truth.
00:01:00 And nothing but the truth. And nothing but the truth. Okay.
00:01:03 Okay. Thank you very much. Do sit down and make yourself comfortable.
00:01:08 Yes, Mr. Robert. Thank you, sir. Thank you.
00:01:15 [Music] Good morning. Good morning. Thank you. Uh, can you give the inquiry your full name, please?
00:01:23 please? It's Omar Al-Haj Ali. So, Alhajali, thank you very much for coming to give evidence today. It's very much appreciated. Um, as you, I hope, already know, the
00:01:36 Um, as you, I hope, already know, the majority of my questions um are going to focus on the night of the fire. If you need a break at any time, please let me know and we will stop. I'm going
00:01:48 let me know and we will stop. I'm going to try and keep my question short and straightforward, but if I do ask you a question that you don't understand, then please don't hesitate to tell me. Um, and I'll try and put the question in a
00:01:59 and I'll try and put the question in a different way. The first thing we need to do is to formally put your statements to the inquiry into the record. And can we please have
00:02:10 please have IWS50781,
00:02:13 please? Um, if I explain, this is the first page of your statement to the inquiry. Um, as we go through your evidence, um, it'll
00:02:26 we go through your evidence, um, it'll come up on the screen that's in front of you. But if you're more comfortable with paper, you should find a file that's in front of you that has that statement at, um, tab one.
00:02:38 um, tab one. Can we go to page 17 of the statement, please?
00:02:45 We we can see there at the bottom that there's the date the 27th of June 2018 and a signature. Can you confirm that that is your signature? It is.
00:02:58 It is. Have you had an opportunity to go through the statement recently? Yes, I did. Can you confirm that the statement contents of the statement are true? In the best of my memory it is. Yes.
00:03:11 In the best of my memory it is. Yes. where in some places just I wasn't sure about the location at flat 113 where it was the living room or the bedroom. Yeah.
00:03:22 Yeah. Well, we will come to um events in flat 113 in due course and when we do um I'll clarify with you what your recollection is of where you were at a particular point in time.
00:03:33 point in time. All right. Thank you. Um there's one exhibit to that statement and we need to put that in the record. It's your exhibit OM1 which is at IWS780.
00:03:47 So [ __ ] also made a second witness statement to the inquiry. And can we have that up on the screen now please? It's IWS41052.
00:03:59 That's the first page of that second statement. If we go to page four please.
00:04:08 Again, it's it's whilst it's not dated, it does have a signature. Can you confirm that that is your signature? It is. Yes. And are the contents of that second witness statement true?
00:04:19 witness statement true? Yes, it is. Mr. Chen, for the record, there are no exhibits to the supplementary statement. We
00:04:29 We just begin with um a little bit of background. Um,
00:04:37 in June 2017, it's right, isn't it, that you were living in flat 112 on the 14th floor of Grenfell Tower? Yes.
00:04:48 Yes. And when did you move into that flat? 5th of September. Um, 200 I think
00:04:58 17. 2000. Yeah. 2000 I think 2017. So it's actually a year before the fire. So I'll say 20 um
00:05:10 before the fire. So I'll say 20 um September 2016. 16 16. Yes. Thank you. Uh but in June 2017, who were you sharing the flat with? Uh with my brother Muhammad and my
00:05:21 Uh with my brother Muhammad and my friend Mahmud Al Karad. Thank you. And is it right that you uh and Muhammad also had a brother Hashem who was living in London? He was living in London with his friends.
00:05:37 Can we go just to um page three of your first statement please? So IWS7813
00:05:49 and just pick it up at paragraph 8. Um
00:05:55 Um what were your relations like with your neighbors on floor 14 before the night of the fire? Uh actually I didn't know them that much. I used to say hi to them if I see
00:06:06 much. I used to say hi to them if I see them next to my flat or in the lifts. So yeah, I just knew my neighbor who they are on the same floor. But and did you know their names?
00:06:18 But and did you know their names? Um no that time. No, I didn't. Yeah. But but you knew them to recognize them as people who lived on the same floor. Yeah, because we lived on the same floor. Yeah. Could
00:06:32 we look at your um exhibit to that statement? Um if we go to IWS780 page two.
00:06:48 Now this is the plan of uh your home flat 112. Is that right?
00:06:56 right? Yes.
00:06:57 Yes. And um
00:07:01 And um there's quite a a few numbers on it, but um if we look in the uh bottom left hand corner, I think that's where the two bedrooms were. Mhm.
00:07:11 Mhm. Um and
00:07:15 Um and one bedroom had uh two two beds in it and the other one had had one bed in it. Is that right? Yes. And um who had which bedroom in
00:07:26 Yes. And um who had which bedroom in June 2017? So I had uh the bedroom with the double beds.
00:07:32 beds. Do you want Do you want to stand up? Two.
00:07:35 Two. This is the one I had and my brother was in this room. So um you were in the bedroom marked two and your brother and Mahmud al Karad
00:07:46 and your brother and Mahmud al Karad were in the bedroom marked one. Yeah.
00:07:52 We see that you've put some crosses on the um
00:07:58 the um on the plan. Is is that to mark walls that weren't actually there? Yeah. So the kitchen it was open plan so we didn't have any wall here
00:08:09 we didn't have any wall here and this one we didn't have it. And uh I think it's the same for here as well. We just had a cabinet here. So yeah.
00:08:20 just had a cabinet here. So yeah. So particularly in terms of of the kitchen and the lounge, it was all open, was it? It was all open to the living room. So there wasn't even a sliding door between the kitchen and the lounge.
00:08:32 between the kitchen and the lounge. Thank you.
00:08:39 Um could I um just take you back to page one of your first statement to the inquiry
00:08:47 inquiry and just take a look at paragraph three please if that could be expanded.
00:08:56 Um, in that paragraph you're um you discuss uh problems with windows on the northeast side of the flat
00:09:07 northeast side of the flat which had air coming through. We can go back to your plan if you need to, but which windows are you referring to? Um, the one in the living room. Uh, the
00:09:19 Uh, the Shall I point to that or? Yes. Well, let's go back to your plan. Sorry. IWS780 page 2 please.
00:09:30 So it was uh one of them here in the living room I think and the other one the kitchen one and that's on the north windows on the
00:09:42 and that's on the north windows on the northeast side of the flat. Is that right?
00:09:45 right? Uh I'm not sure. I'll take that direction but yeah it's these two windows. I think we can see at the very top there there's the the symbol N at the top with an arrow pointing north. So
00:09:56 the top with an arrow pointing north. So that that may help you. So
00:10:01 and and what you say is um they had air coming through. There were tiny spaces around the outside of the window which meant that even when the windows were
00:10:12 meant that even when the windows were closed, air still came inside and you could hear the wind blow. But what you also say is that someone then came to fix the window in the living room. Um what about the other
00:10:26 living room. Um what about the other window, the kitchen window? Um I think he because I wasn't at home that time when he came so my brother told me but I think he tried to fix both of them. Um
00:10:39 think he tried to fix both of them. Um it wasn't 100 B 100% uh fixed. So it was better than before but not 100% for both of them.
00:10:48 of them. Yeah.
00:10:50 Yeah. So um taking you then to June 2017. Um were you still were you still did you still notice air coming through these two windows? Yes.
00:11:01 Yes. And was there particular times when you would see
00:11:05 would see especially when it's windy when it's windy outside we could hear it and we we could we could feel it. Yeah. and and taking each window in turn. If we start with the kitchen window, was the air coming in at a
00:11:17 window, was the air coming in at a particular point? It's just little bit, not that much, but we could hear the voice because this it was tiny space or a gap, I think. Yeah.
00:11:28 was tiny space or a gap, I think. Yeah. But did it come through in a particular part of the window? Uh yes, it's the out um the the outside of the window that's um um the small gap, you know, when you
00:11:41 um um the small gap, you know, when you close the window on the on the outside of the window. So is that the frame of the window? The frames. Yeah, actually. Yeah. And what about the living room window? Where was the same place? Yeah.
00:11:52 same place? Yeah. So
00:11:52 So it's it's u on the left side. If you're standing on the opposite of the window, it's on the left side. So the side of the window. Yeah, thank you.
00:12:06 Um, I'd like now just to show you a um photograph um which was taken of the interior of the um inside the tower and after the fire. Um but Mr. Chairman,
00:12:19 after the fire. Um but Mr. Chairman, it's a it's a photograph of the fire safety notice and we've seen that a number of times. Particularly disturbing. Not at all. I think um we have please BLA 402416
00:12:31 BLA 402416 please.
00:12:33 please. Um Mr. Alhaj Ali if I could just explain to you this is a photograph of a fire safety notice which was cited um at the
00:12:44 safety notice which was cited um at the lifts on floor three before June 2017. Do you remember seeing a notice like this near the lifts on your floor? No,
00:12:56 your floor? No, I didn't see. Uh, do you remember seeing a notice like this um between the lifts on the ground floor?
00:13:02 floor? No.
00:13:05 No. So, in June 2017, what was your understanding of what you as someone living in the tower should do if there was a fire there?
00:13:17 if there was a fire there? I didn't have any idea that time.
00:13:25 Um, could I now please take you just to the the events of the night themselves and I'll take you back to page four of your statement.
00:13:36 And could we just expand paragraphs 12 to 13.
00:13:47 Um, in these paragraphs, I won't read them out, but you explain that on the evening of the 13th of June, uh, you and your brother spent that evening with friends and family. Is that
00:13:58 evening with friends and family. Is that right?
00:13:59 right? Yes. and your cousin Asam drove you back both back to the tower and you estimate and this is in paragraph 13 that you got back between 11 and 11:30 at night.
00:14:12 back between 11 and 11:30 at night. Yes.
00:14:14 Yes. When you got back that evening, can you remember if the lights were on in the communal area on your floor? It was. Yes.
00:14:26 I want to show you again um an image um taken um it's a photograph taken uh inside the tower after the fire. Again, Mr. Chairman, it's one we've seen before and not particularly distressing, but
00:14:38 and not particularly distressing, but very well. Yes. Could we have please BLA 402514?
00:14:45 Um and could we can you see um we can expand it for you if you need it, Mr. Alhajali, but can you see um we can see obviously the lifts on the right side
00:14:57 obviously the lifts on the right side and then there's a a cupboard opposite the lifts. Can you see that there are light fixtures in the ceiling?
00:15:05 Um yes, I could see that. Um now this is a photograph taken on floor six. Um, but do you remember
00:15:18 floor six. Um, but do you remember seeing lights like that in the ceiling of floor 14? You mean before before the fire? Yes, I did. Um, if we look at the cupboard door,
00:15:30 Um, if we look at the cupboard door, there's a blue panel. I wonder we could just expand that a little bit. Just a blue cir a circular plaque on the cupboard door.
00:15:41 Now it's floor six. And if you look there's an arrow point there's two arrows pointing in opposite directions and the um top arrow points the directions for flat 31 32 and 33. If we
00:15:54 directions for flat 31 32 and 33. If we just go back to the image itself if we took that to floor um 14 where you lived that arrow would say
00:16:06 14 where you lived that arrow would say flat 111 112 and 113 wouldn't it? It would. Yeah. But I don't remember seeing it. Yeah.
00:16:13 Yeah. But if if someone were on floor 14 were coming out of the lifts and and the lifts were on the right side as we see them, where would your flat door be or
00:16:24 them, where would your flat door be or which direction would someone go in uh
00:16:26 uh to get to your flat door? If you are leaving the left, it will be on the right side. Yeah.
00:16:33 Yeah. Um so looking at your that photograph, does Yeah. Does that help you to how close your flat door would have been? I think
00:16:44 I think if I'm leaving the left from here, so my flat would be this. So is it just around the corner of of that that wall that we can see on the left hand side?
00:17:00 And to get to your flat door, would you have to go past the door to the stairwell? Um, so again, if sorry, if I'm coming out of the lift and
00:17:13 sorry, if I'm coming out of the lift and I'm going to your flat. Yeah. Um, in the direction that you've pointed. So that's towards those grills that we can see.
00:17:21 can see. Would I walk past, can you remember? Would I have to walk past the door to the stairwell? Yes.
00:17:30 Okay. Let's go back then to your statement, your first statement, um, page four.
00:17:40 and just pick it up at the bottom, paragraph 14, please.
00:17:49 You explained in your statement, Mr. Alhajali, that um you didn't go to sleep straight away, and you say there that um
00:18:00 straight away, and you say there that um you were speaking to a friend on the phone and and at about 1:00 a.m. in the morning. Mhm. Um, you heard sounds. Um, and you in fact got up and checked out of the out
00:18:11 fact got up and checked out of the out of your bedroom window, didn't you? Yes, I did. Um, you've given the time of at about 1:00 a.m. What do you base the time on? Uh, because I was using my phone, so I
00:18:23 Uh, because I was using my phone, so I thought I think that I checked the time that night.
00:18:32 If we go to the next page please and look at paragraph 15
00:18:45 what you say is that um having checked out of the your window you you went back to your bed but then if we pick it up paragraph 15 you say
00:18:56 if we pick it up paragraph 15 you say after 10 minutes I heard people shouting And then your brother Muhammad came into your room and told you that he could smell smoke. Mhm.
00:19:07 Mhm. Did Muhammad tell you where he could smell the smoke? He didn't tell me where, but maybe because he was closer to the front door, so he could smell the smoke before than
00:19:18 so he could smell the smoke before than me.
00:19:19 me. Could you smell smoke yourself at that time?
00:19:21 time? Uh, when he told me and then I went to the corridor, I started to smell it. So in your bedroom there wasn't any No, in my bedroom I didn't at the beginning.
00:19:40 What you tell us is that um you went to the living room kitchen area which we've seen on your plan was open plan and you you looked out of the
00:19:51 plan and you you looked out of the windows. Could I um just go back to your plan then? IWS780 page two.
00:20:01 Um you're in the bedroom marked two. Yeah.
00:20:05 Yeah. Um and you would have gone then to the living room kitchen area. Which windows did you look out of? Um we started to look from this window here.
00:20:16 here. Uh actually everywhere. But when we started to see the everywhere, all the windows, but then when we saw the fire, it was from this window.
00:20:27 it was from this window. So that's the um most northeasterly window in the living room. Um and on the plan, it's the window uh next to the number 12, the
00:20:39 the window uh next to the number 12, the circled number 12. Yeah.
00:20:44 Yeah. Can you just ask when when you looked out of the windows, what did you see? I saw uh flames um coming from the left side of the window on the bottom. So
00:20:57 side of the window on the bottom. So nearly the fourth or fifth floor maybe. Yeah.
00:21:02 Yeah. So you're standing at at that window which is um next to the circle number 12. Yeah. And when you looked out when I looked out was on my left side in the bottom of the tower. So yeah, like
00:21:16 the bottom of the tower. So yeah, like And how were you able to estimate what floor you could see? I tried to estimate that time by looking at the flames. So it was
00:21:27 at the flames. So it was maybe some seven or eight floors under me.
00:21:32 me. Yeah.
00:21:32 Yeah. So some seven or eight floors below you. Below me. Yeah. And and in terms of of what um you were actually seeing um can you describe the flames that you saw?
00:21:43 you describe the flames that you saw? Uh I remember it was light and blue and green color red sometimes. So it wasn't clear just
00:21:56 sometimes. So it wasn't clear just color. Yeah. And did the flames that you see appear to be on the outside of the tower or coming from inside out exterior?
00:22:07 coming from inside out exterior? That time I saw it was outside. I'm not sure if it was coming from inside but yeah I saw it was outside. Now in your statement what you say is
00:22:18 Now in your statement what you say is that you could smell smoke at this time. Were any of your windows open at this time? Um at that time, no. But we opened it to check then.
00:22:29 it to check then. Yeah.
00:22:29 Yeah. So in order to to see, you had to open your window. Yes, I thought it. And can you describe what the smell was like?
00:22:39 like? Um I smelled um little bit smoke, not that you know much at the beginning. So yeah.
00:22:48 yeah. But can you describe the the smell at all?
00:22:52 all? I I knew that um it's a fire smell. So actually I don't remember what kind of smell it was. Yeah.
00:23:03 smell it was. Yeah. Thank you. Well, let's go back to your statement please and um we'll look at page five. So IWS7815 and paragraph 16 please.
00:23:21 You begin the the the paragraph by saying that as you and your brother were standing at the window looking out, we agreed that we needed to leave the tower immediately.
00:23:32 immediately. Why did you come to that decision? Uh because um we saw a fire. So we that time we just thought that we had to leave before the fire came to us.
00:23:50 At that time, were you aware of any um fire um firefighters being outside the building or any um emergency vehicles outside the building? Yes, I've seen some firefighters um just
00:24:03 Yes, I've seen some firefighters um just next to the main door of the tower, main entrance. Main entrance of the tower. Thank you. Um,
00:24:12 Um, and what you then did was that you you went to the front door and you say there was smoke coming um from the bottom of the front door. Now it what you've given
00:24:23 the front door. Now it what you've given the time there is that it's about 1:15 a.m. How do you estimate that time? Um
00:24:32 Um I think because it didn't take us longer than that time between we hear the fire and trying to leave the flat. Yeah. So roundly 15 minutes maximum.
00:24:49 And before we um continue, can you just describe what the front door of your flat was like? um
00:24:57 um wooden wooden door. Um
00:25:03 it wasn't new, I think, because the owner he refurbished the flat. So that's what that's all what I know about it actually. Yeah. Do you remember if if the uh door had a
00:25:14 Do you remember if if the uh door had a letter box in it?
00:25:18 I think it had Yes. I'm I'm not really sure about it. Yeah. I'm not sure, but I think it had Did it have any glass panes in it?
00:25:29 Did it have any glass panes in it? No.
00:25:34 Um, you described in this paragraph, um,
00:25:39 um, opening the front door and you say the communal area was dark, full of smoke, complete darkness. You could only see your hand a little bit. I could not see the lifts or the staircase. I would say
00:25:51 the lifts or the staircase. I would say it was 80% dark. Could you tell if there were any lights on in the communal area? I couldn't tell because it was dark. So, I don't think I saw a light that time.
00:26:04 I don't think I saw a light that time. Yeah.
00:26:09 Can you tell us a little bit more about what the smoke that you saw looked like? Um, it was thick but not 100%. So it was very dark when I opened the door. We
00:26:21 very dark when I opened the door. We couldn't see and we could smell it. So it was very scary. And then we closed the door straight away. And what did it Can you describe the smell?
00:26:34 smell? Actually um that time like if you breathe it you will not I don't know you we stopped breathing when we started to smell the
00:26:45 breathing when we started to smell the smoke. So it was thick I think. Yeah. And it was in everywhere in the communal area.
00:26:54 area. So we couldn't see. It was very dark everywhere. Yeah.
00:26:58 Yeah. And did you get a sense taking it from the floor to the ceiling? Do you get did you get any sense of how much smoke there was from floor to ceiling? No, but it was dark everywhere.
00:27:09 No, but it was dark everywhere. Yeah.
00:27:11 Yeah. And what about the temperature on the communial area at that time? It wasn't that hot, but when we opened the door, we could feel little bit warm.
00:27:22 the door, we could feel little bit warm. Yeah. But not like inside the flat. Yeah.
00:27:26 Yeah. So, was was it warmer in the communal area than in your flat? Yes, it is.
00:27:35 Um, what you then say in your statement was that you you both you and your brother then went into the living room. Mhm. uh opened um two two windows on the
00:27:47 Mhm. uh opened um two two windows on the southeast corner and you started shouting for help. Yes.
00:27:51 Yes. And Muhammad was also shouting for help from the living room windows facing south.
00:27:56 south. So at that time did were you opening the windows to call out to people? Yes. To call out. Did anyone call back or respond to your shouts
00:28:07 shouts at the beginning? No. No one even said anything to us. But later on they said yeah they they said stay where you are we are coming.
00:28:18 we are coming. Now you say they said yeah who was they? A group of firefighters but I heard one of them maybe or two maximum saying that. Yeah.
00:28:32 And when you heard that being told stay in your flat did that affect what you decided to do? Uh I felt much better. I felt that they
00:28:45 Uh I felt much better. I felt that they will be coming. Yeah.
00:28:52 If we go then to IWS781 page six. Please just um look at paragraph 18.
00:29:18 Thank you. Um, you say that the Muhammad and I started to run around the rooms in the flat to look out of the windows to see how far the fire was spreading and how quickly
00:29:30 the fire was spreading and how quickly it was spreading. The only window where we could see the fire from was the window in the living room kitchen area on the east side of the tower. Ju just so that we can be clear and we'll I I'll go back to your plan.
00:29:41 go back to your plan. Mhm.
00:29:41 Mhm. You've told us that it's open plan, but was this window effectively the kitchen window that you were able to see? Uh so the window that I You say that the only window that you
00:29:52 You say that the only window that you could see the fire from was the window in the living room kitchen area on the east side of the tower. Yeah. Was that the window that would have been in the kitchen? Uh, I think it was in the middle between
00:30:03 Uh, I think it was in the middle between the living room and the kitchen. Yeah,
00:30:06 Yeah, let's go. Let's check it with your plan, please. Um, IWS780, page two.
00:30:19 Um, so you've got we've got the kitchen uh marked 10. Um, and that's got a window looking east. And then as we move um through
00:30:33 east. And then as we move um through into the lounge, we've got another window which is um and the number 12 is circled next to that window. Which window was it that you could see the fire from? At this time, number 12.
00:30:46 And can you describe what you were able to see from that window? just a fire spreading
00:30:53 spreading um to the top like going up. Yeah.
00:30:59 Yeah. And you told us a few moments ago that when you first looked out your estimate was that it was seven or eight floors below?
00:31:05 below? Yeah.
00:31:07 Yeah. Had the level at which you could see the fire changed at all? It changed. It was going up. Yeah. And how much closer was it to you now? Um
00:31:17 Um maybe four or five floors. um below than me but on the other side. So the left side of the wall again still on the left side as you looked out. Yes.
00:31:27 Yes. But but now rather than seven or eight floors, four or five below. Yes.
00:31:35 I'll I'll take you to your statement if you need to see it. But um what you also describe is seeing a firefighter on a crane using a hose. Yeah. And in the same paragraph you say
00:31:47 Yeah. And in the same paragraph you say that you saw that things were falling. Uh can you describe what you could see falling please? What could I see? Sorry. What could you see from you? You say um
00:32:00 What could you see from you? You say um things were falling and we could smell the fire.
00:32:03 the fire. Yeah. Uh that what is it that you could see falling? Yeah. Um
00:32:08 Yeah. Um I think it was I I saw um parts of the of of the tower was falling like and the fire was spreading very quickly
00:32:20 and the fire was spreading very quickly to the top. Mhm.
00:32:21 Mhm. From and I saw the firefighter. He was on the crane just trying to put the water everywhere on the top and and down, right, left, everywhere. Yeah.
00:32:35 down, right, left, everywhere. Yeah. How large were the objects that you could see falling? Um, at the beginning it was a little bit but then started I start to see more
00:32:46 but then started I start to see more things like falling from yeah the left side of the tower. And were they falling from a point um still below you? Uh at the beginning it was yeah but then
00:32:59 Uh at the beginning it was yeah but then it was on the top of me.
00:33:05 What you also say um is that you could smell the fire. Can you describe the smell, please? The smell it was, I think, coming uh from uh our main door um from the bottom
00:33:19 from uh our main door um from the bottom of the door. So, it was okay at the beginning, but then it started to be thicker. Yeah.
00:33:29 Right. Well, um I'll come back to to the main door if I may, but um I think you're on the um
00:33:40 I think you're on the um opposite side of the flat, aren't you? Because you're in the you're in the kitchen and the lounge at this time. So, um placing yourself and your brother in the kitchen lounge area, was there anything coming into your flat
00:33:52 was there anything coming into your flat from that side? Any smoke coming into your flat through the windows of the living room or the kitchen? was coming from the window at the beginning. No, because it was a bit windy that time.
00:34:03 because it was a bit windy that time. So, we couldn't smell it if we look out from the window. Yeah.
00:34:15 Let's um go back then to your statement and can I take you to IWS781, page seven, please?
00:34:29 And let's um just expand first of all paragraph 20.
00:34:40 Um you've already told us that that when you started shouting, firefighters shouted back to you and told you to stay. Um,
00:34:49 stay. Um, if we pick it up at paragraph 20, um, you said that you continue to shout down to the firefighters and people on the ground asking for help. We were shouting, "Help. We need to leave." The
00:35:01 shouting, "Help. We need to leave." The firefighters next to the main entrance shouted up to us and told us to stop shouting and they told us they were coming up to help us. So, um, was this a second occasion when
00:35:12 So, um, was this a second occasion when firefighters shouted up to you? It was the second time. Yeah. A and what did you understand by them telling you that they were coming up to help you? Um that time I I said to myself maybe
00:35:27 Um that time I I said to myself maybe they are doing something or fixing something in the stairs or putting down a fire and they will come soon to us and they knew that we are in the flat so we
00:35:38 they knew that we are in the flat so we stopped charting that time because they saw us. Yeah. Um, let's look please at the next paragraph on that page, paragraph 21.
00:35:56 Um, I'm going to just ask you some questions about parts of this paragraph, but one of the things you say in that is that I think we opened the door again before 2:00 a.m.
00:36:08 before 2:00 a.m. Do you remember why you decided to open the front door? to check again if it's easier to leave now or still dark.
00:36:19 And
00:36:24 you describe the smoke as thicker than before.
00:36:27 before. Was there more smoke in some parts of the communal area than others? It was um
00:36:35 It was um No, it was everywhere actually. Very smoky and very dark. darker than before. Did some of the smoke come into your Yes. When we opened the door, the smoke
00:36:46 Yes. When we opened the door, the smoke started to come inside, so we closed the door straight away. And were the lights on in your hallway at the time? Yes, in my hallway. Yes.
00:37:01 Did you or your brother step out into the communal hallway at all? Um, no. Just next to our door. Yeah.
00:37:11 What was um the temperature like in the communal area at this time? When we opened the door, we could feel it from the smoke. We could feel it was
00:37:22 it from the smoke. We could feel it was warmer than before. And when you say warmer than before, was that warmer than it had been in the communal area when you first opened the door?
00:37:29 door? When I first opened the door, yes. Um
00:37:33 Um using the temperature in your flat as a comparison, how much warmer was it?
00:37:41 40 or 50% I would say. Yeah, I think feeling the smoke um you we could see that we could feel that was hurt. Yeah.
00:37:53 that we could feel that was hurt. Yeah. Hotter than before.
00:37:59 Um you say in that paragraph that it was it was difficult to see anything. Um,
00:38:07 Um, how far could you see through the smoke? I think you just we couldn't see actually anything. Maybe
00:38:18 we couldn't see actually anything. Maybe you can see your hand if you put it in front of you only. But any other things? No.
00:38:25 No. And in terms of a distance, um, how far away?
00:38:29 away? I would say just just this size. So you see my hands on it. You could see your hand if it were an arm's length away. Yes.
00:38:38 Yes. But no more. No more. No.
00:38:42 Um
00:38:46 and just so that we can be clear about the sequence of events. Um you you go on and I'm going to ask you about this in a moment, but that at about 2:00 a.m. a firefighter came and knocked on your front door.
00:38:57 front door. Um,
00:38:59 Um, so had you opened the your front door to look out before the firefighter arrived? Um, it was only uh two times we opened
00:39:10 Um, it was only uh two times we opened the door to check. So yeah, but how soon before the firefighter came and knocked on your front door? Had you opened the front door to look out?
00:39:22 opened the front door to look out? Um, I'm not sure about how long it was, but not that long. since we opened the door until he came. Yeah.
00:39:31 Yeah. So, are you able to estimate how much time passed between your opening the front door with your brother and then the firefighter coming and knocking on your door? Not sure, but I would say maybe 20
00:39:42 Not sure, but I would say maybe 20 minutes maybe.
00:39:49 Um, going now to the firefighter. Um, did you hear anything outside the door before um there was a knocking on your front door? No.
00:40:02 And at the time when the firefighter arrived in your flat and knocked on the door, what were the conditions like in your flat at that time? Uh, a little bit smokeoky in the corridor area.
00:40:14 corridor area. Exactly. And just next to the front door.
00:40:19 door. Yeah.
00:40:19 Yeah. But other than that, the rest of the flat was free of smoke, was it? Yes, it to us.
00:40:27 Um, you say that the firefighter came inside and closed the door behind him. He was wearing his mask and breathing equipment. Um, did the firefighter keep
00:40:38 equipment. Um, did the firefighter keep his the the mask on while in your flat? I think the first time when he came he kept it, but at the second time he removed it. Yeah.
00:40:50 removed it. Yeah. Well, you um we'll come back to that second occasion in a moment. Um
00:41:01 what you say in in your statement if we is that the firefighter was a white male with an English accent. Yeah.
00:41:09 Yeah. If he kept his mask on, what was it that made you say he was a white male? Um I think it um I could see his maybe
00:41:20 Um I think it um I could see his maybe eyes or a little bit of his face and I wasn't sure if the same person came again but the second time when he removed his equipment I could see that
00:41:38 with this firefighter um you asked he told you to stay here your flat is safe. Stay here and we'll come again. Uh you asked him if you could leave. Um but you
00:41:51 asked him if you could leave. Um but you also took him, I think, to see a fire from the fire from the window in the kitchen living room area. Is that right? Yes.
00:41:59 Yes. And is that the same window that we were looking at earlier next to number 12? Yes. The window marked 12. Now when you took the firefighter to that window,
00:42:10 the firefighter to that window, can you remember what was going on with the fire at that time?
00:42:16 time? Um yeah, it was spreading very quickly uh going to the top and then moving to the top of my window. So going up then
00:42:28 the top of my window. So going up then moving on the top to of my window. Yeah, I'm coming very quickly to our window. Yeah.
00:42:36 Yeah. So, uh if we take that in stages, um did you actually look out of the window? Yes, we did. Yeah.
00:42:45 Yeah. And when you say that it was coming to the top of your window, do you mean that that the fire was was at your floor? No. On the top meaner, like maybe five floors higher or in the top of the
00:42:58 floors higher or in the top of the tower, I'll say. Yeah. So, whereas before the fire had been lower?
00:43:02 lower? Yes.
00:43:02 Yes. Now, it was above you. Above. Yeah. And a few floors above you. Yes.
00:43:10 Um, did you have any windows in the living room kitchen area open at that time or did you just open the window to look out?
00:43:18 look out? Um, the kitchen when it was closed, it was hard to see from the kitchen because it was a bit narrow there. Yeah.
00:43:29 it was a bit narrow there. Yeah. But if you if we opened it, we could see the fire, but we didn't. Yeah, because we could see from the number 12 window. Now, you're in the lounge
00:43:41 Now, you're in the lounge kitchen area at this time with the firefighter. Was any smoke coming into your flat from that side? Uh, from the window.
00:43:55 As I mentioned, you you you tell us what the firefighter told you, which was to stay in your flat. Did the firefighter tell you why you could not leave the flat?
00:44:05 flat? No. I asked him why and he didn't reply to me. So, he said, "Just stay where you are and we'll come back." But I could see that time he didn't
00:44:16 But I could see that time he didn't know. So when I showed him the fire, he he wanted to see it because he didn't know that the fire is closed or not. So he wanted to see to check if it's closed or not.
00:44:30 So tell us what what makes you think that the firefighter didn't know about because he was wondering he was asking me like where show me where is the fire and I had to go with him to the window
00:44:42 and I had to go with him to the window and show him the fire and he was very quiet. He he didn't say anything that time. He said, "Okay,
00:44:53 let's go to the next page, please. Page eight. And again, um, expand paragraph 21.
00:45:10 Uh what if we look at the last three sentences
00:45:15 sentences uh you say that the firefighter opened the front door. More smoke entered the flat into the hallway from the communal area outside. The smoke which came into our flat then set the smoke alarm off.
00:45:27 our flat then set the smoke alarm off. Muhammad and I got some blankets. We put them against the front door to stop the smoke coming in under it. Um the smoke alarm that was set off. Where was that alarm? Uh it was on the
00:45:40 was that alarm? Uh it was on the corridor just uh opposite of my room
00:45:46 number two. Room number two opposite of that.
00:45:58 So, um, and bedroom number two is the one with the the the is this with the double bed, but it's and and that's the one that you were sleeping in at the time?
00:46:09 sleeping in at the time? Yes.
00:46:11 Yes. Was that the first time that the alarm had gone off that night? Yeah.
00:46:17 Yeah. Did putting blankets against the front door um stop smoke coming in? I stopped but not 100% much better than before but not perfect.
00:46:32 If we go on the same page please to paragraph 22
00:46:40 um what you say is that after approximately 10 minutes the firefighter came back to the flat. Now, taking that time,
00:46:51 the flat. Now, taking that time, h how um clear are you in your mind that it was about 10 minutes between the two visits by the firefighter? Because it wasn't that long since he came back again as since the first time
00:47:04 came back again as since the first time and the second time. So, I estimated that by maximum 15 minutes. Yeah. You say there was a group of firefighters. Did Did you see other firefighters? Yeah, I think I saw behind
00:47:17 firefighters? Yeah, I think I saw behind him a group of firefighters were walking in the floor in Were they in the communal area? Communal area. Yeah. And you've told us that it was dark in the communal area. How were you able to
00:47:29 the communal area. How were you able to tell see these firefighters? When they came to our uh floor to the communal area, uh it was better than before actually.
00:47:40 before actually. Not sure why. Maybe because they had light. So, I don't know the reason, but it was better than before. So, the smoke was less than before.
00:47:51 So, the smoke was less than before. Yeah.
00:47:52 Yeah. And so, could you see a bit further into the communal area? Yes.
00:47:56 Yes. Um, when you say there was a group of firefighters, do you remember how many firefighters you saw? No, I don't remember how many. Now, the firefighter brought um one of
00:48:08 Now, the firefighter brought um one of your neighbors, Dennis Murphy, into your flat. What physical condition was Dennis Murphy in at that time? Very bad condition. He He had lots of
00:48:19 Very bad condition. He He had lots of smoke. He inheld lots of smoke and I could see his face as well. He has lots of a smoke on his face and he wasn't breathing very well.
00:48:32 breathing very well. Was Mr. Murphy able to speak to you or your brother at all? He was very calm, quiet. He didn't speak or he didn't say anything.
00:48:45 And how did the firefighter get into your flat with Dennis Murphy? They knocked the door again and we opened to the door to them and they
00:48:56 opened to the door to them and they brought Dennis Murphy. Yeah. And was it only one firefighter that came in with Mr. Murphy? With Yeah. With him? Yes. Only one. And behind him, I think there are many
00:49:11 And behind him, I think there are many behind him. I've seen many firefighters, but only him who came into the flat with him.
00:49:17 him. Only one.
00:49:18 Only one. And at that time, um, where did the firefighter come? How far did the firefighter come into the flat? Just, uh,
00:49:28 Just, uh, next to the door. Uh, um, yeah, I think. Yeah, just next to the door.
00:49:36 on that occasion. Uh was it on that second occasion that the 552 removed the mask?
00:49:44 mask? I think it was when he brought Dennis that time when he removed his mask. So, and because we couldn't hear him very well and we were asking him
00:49:56 very well and we were asking him questions, so he said stay here. He removed it because we couldn't hear. He removed his mask and he started to speak to us, saying to us to stay.
00:50:07 to us, saying to us to stay. So is the sequence of events that there was a knock on the door. Yeah.
00:50:10 Yeah. Firefighter brought Dennis in. Mhm.
00:50:14 Mhm. Was the door then closed? Yeah, he closed it behind him and then he took off his mask and spoke to you.
00:50:22 And can we just um just help us with can you as best as you can tell us what the firefighter said to you? He said um your flat is safe. Um leave
00:50:34 He said um your flat is safe. Um leave this uh man with you and we will come back to you. Um I started to ask him but can you see him? He had um smoke
00:50:46 can you see him? He had um smoke inhalation means the the smoke is in his flat which is very close to us. He said okay don't worry your flat still safe. It's the best corner. So stay
00:50:59 safe. It's the best corner. So stay here.
00:51:02 here. I don't know. I I was just shocked or surprised like and I think that time when I asked, "Okay, do you have any masks for us?" And he said, "No, we
00:51:14 masks for us?" And he said, "No, we don't have they've been used." Sorry, I didn't quite catch your last answer.
00:51:19 answer. Yeah. He said, "We I asked him if you have any masks for us, so we can leave." He said, "No, we don't have. they have been used. Um, did the firefighter tell you uh
00:51:33 Um, did the firefighter tell you uh where to or to go to a particular part of your flat? Uh,
00:51:39 Uh, I think
00:51:42 I think I don't remember but maybe he was saying to stay in the bedroom, not to the in the living room. Yeah.
00:51:50 Yeah. And the flat has two bedrooms. Was he indicating particular bedroom? It's the one with two beds, number one. So that that's the the bedroom that your brother occupied.
00:52:01 brother occupied. Yes.
00:52:03 Yes. At that time when the firefighter brought um Dennis Murphy into your flat, what were the conditions like in your flat?
00:52:10 flat? Uh it was still a bit um smoky in the corridor area, but better than before. Not like before. Yeah.
00:52:25 If we look please at paragraph uh 23
00:52:33 just on the b bottom of that page um now in this paragraph you're you're dealing with the move into flat 113
00:52:44 dealing with the move into flat 113 and you begin it that um you say that it's another approximately another 10 minutes have passed and the a firefighter came back and and came into your flat again. How sure or how
00:52:57 into your flat again. How sure or how certain are you of the time that had passed?
00:53:01 passed? Again, because I felt it wasn't more than 15 minutes maximum. So, I said maybe 10 minutes. Yeah.
00:53:12 And when the firefighter came back into flat 112,
00:53:18 flat 112, where were you, Dennis Murphy, and your brother?
00:53:23 brother? I don't remember where Dennis Murphy was. Um, but me and my brother, we were speaking to him next to our door. But I think he was close to us, not far.
00:53:36 But I think he was close to us, not far. But, um, before the firefighter came back, had you followed the advice and gone into the bedroom? Um, yes. For the first time, we had to go to the living room just to wash
00:53:49 go to the living room just to wash Dennis Murphy face uh and give him some water and then we came back to the bedroom.
00:53:57 bedroom. Um again, just help us with this. How did the firefighter get into your flat? They knocked the door again. And so was it the case that when when
00:54:08 And so was it the case that when when they knocked, you and your brother let the firefighter in? Yes. And did you have a conversation with the firefighter by the front door? Yes.
00:54:16 Yes. Can you describe the firefighter at all? Um, I think with British accent, um, tall
00:54:25 tall and a blonde. That's what I remembered. Yeah.
00:54:30 Yeah. Did Was the firefighter wearing a face mask?
00:54:33 mask? Yes.
00:54:34 Yes. And did the firefighter take the face mask off? Um not sure exactly when he took it off. Maybe at the time when he brought Dennis or at the time when he
00:54:45 brought Dennis or at the time when he wanted to tell us to move to the 2113. So um just again so that we can be clear.
00:54:54 clear. Yeah.
00:54:56 Yeah. Do you remember that because there are obviously three visits to your flat by a firefighter, aren't there? Yeah. the first time when the firefighter comes, then when the firefighter brings Dennis and this
00:55:09 firefighter brings Dennis and this occasion when the firefighter comes um and to move and to tell you about moving to a different flat. Yeah.
00:55:16 Yeah. Is that right? So,
00:55:17 So, now those Sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt, but if I just break it down, but um it's one firefighter who comes into the flat on each occasion, isn't it? Yes.
00:55:27 Yes. And
00:55:29 And is it your evidence that on one of those occasions the firefighter removed the face mask? Yes, only one time. And I'm not sure if it's the same person who came before and after.
00:55:40 after. Um, and the occasion when the firefighter removed the face mask could either have been when Dennis Murphy came into your flat or this occasion when you were moving to
00:55:51 this occasion when you were moving to flat 113.
00:55:53 flat 113. So, I'm sure it wasn't the first time. either the second or the third time. Thank you. And you've described the firefighter as British, tall, and blonde. Is that blonde hair?
00:56:05 blonde. Is that blonde hair? Yes.
00:56:07 Yes. Um, did the firefighter tell you why you had to move? Uh, they told us, um, we will move you to the next flat as it's saver
00:56:20 to the next flat as it's saver and we'll keep you there.
00:56:24 Did Did they explain why your flat was no longer safe? No, they didn't. They just said it's 113 is safer for you.
00:56:35 is safer for you. And And did the firefighters specifically mentioned flat 113?
00:56:42 I think they said the next flat. They did. I don't remember if they mentioned 113.
00:56:50 you've set out and I I won't ask you the detail, but h how you moved from flat 112 to 113, but when you were making that move, were you aware of any other firefighters
00:57:02 you aware of any other firefighters being around? I think yeah, I could see not clearly, but I could see many firefighters in the communal area. And when you say many, can you give us a
00:57:13 And when you say many, can you give us a number?
00:57:14 number? No, not sure. But not more than five maximum, I think. Um, what were the conditions like in the communal area as you moved across from your flat to flat 113?
00:57:25 your flat to flat 113? Um, we have been told to run quickly. So, it took us maybe just seconds to be in the next flat.
00:57:36 in the next flat. So, I didn't really check or I didn't really see or look, but I could smell the smoke. But because it was very quickly, so I didn't inhale smoke that
00:57:47 quickly, so I didn't inhale smoke that much. Yeah. And when you say you could smell the smoke, can you describe the smell?
00:57:54 I think when they were in the communal area, it wasn't that thick comparing to before. Yeah. And before is when you'd seen it
00:58:05 And before is when you'd seen it earlier?
00:58:06 earlier? Yes. When I seen when you when was that when you'd opened when I tried to leave me and my brother? Yeah.
00:58:12 Yeah. Um, as you moved across from the your flat to flat 113 into the communal area, were you able to see the door that opens
00:58:23 were you able to see the door that opens into the stairwell? Yeah, I could see a light, so I knew it's
00:58:28 it's it's the door. Yeah. So, there was sufficient visibility for you to be able to make out the door. Yes.
00:58:35 Yes. Um, were the firefighters using torches? I think they were. Yeah.
00:58:44 Mr. Chairman, we've been going for an hour. I think if I could ask for a break at this point. Well, I think that would be sensible because you're coming on to a a new topic. Slightly different topic. Anyway, aren't you,
00:58:54 you, Mr. Al Johnny? We're going to have a bit of a break now. Um, please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room and we'll resume at 10 11 if that's all right. Okay. Right.
00:59:06 11 if that's all right. Okay. Right. Thank you very much. Right. Go to the usher. She'll look after you.
00:59:22 Right. 10 11 please.
01:11:40 All right, Mr. Fine. Ready to continue? Yeah.
01:11:43 Yeah. Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. R. Um, could we have IWS781, page nine, please?
01:11:54 page nine, please? we expand just the um the last sentence of of of what's paragraph 23 down through to the end of paragraph 25 please
01:12:19 okay um we Just pick it up with that last sentence of paragraph 23. Mr. Alajali, you say that Muhammad Dennis and I all went inside and that's into flat 113 and
01:12:32 went inside and that's into flat 113 and I think the fireman closed the door behind us. Um, so do you have a recollection of fireman actually coming into the flat with you or just opening the door and ushering you in?
01:12:44 the door and ushering you in? I don't remember if he came with us inside into the flat but but what I remember that he came into the flat but not sure if it was at
01:12:55 into the flat but not sure if it was at that time or after. And if we look at paragraph 24, um, is this right that when you arrived at flat 113, obviously that was the home
01:13:07 at flat 113, obviously that was the home of um, Olawas Talabi and his partner Rosemary and their young daughter, and they were there. Yes.
01:13:15 Yes. Um, but was Zabden and her son already there when you arrived?
01:13:22 I think they were already there because I've seen all of them. Yeah, they were already there.
01:13:30 And um
01:13:34 can you remember where they were when you came into the flat? I'm not 100% sure, but I think it was the living room.
01:13:45 the living room. So is your memory of everyone gathering in the living room? In the living room. Yes.
01:13:56 You say if we look at paragraph 25 that a fireman came into the flat, told us to stay there and told us it was the safest place to be. Um,
01:14:07 place to be. Um, how soon after you were in flat 113? Did that fireman come into the flat? This is why I don't remember exactly when, but maybe at the same time when he brought
01:14:19 maybe at the same time when he brought us into the flat 113 or after that. I wasn't I'm not sure exactly when. Do you have any recollection of um after
01:14:31 Do you have any recollection of um after you'd arrived in the flat, somebody opening the door for the fireman? I don't remember who opened the door.
01:14:41 Um, can you describe this fireman at all? Uh,
01:14:45 all? Uh, I couldn't describe him, but he's tall as well. That's what I remember. And when you say tall, how tall? Same as my height, maybe. And can you give us your height?
01:14:56 And can you give us your height? Uh, 188 cm. And um, you say he um, could you tell? Uh, he was he was talking to me and to
01:15:07 Uh, he was he was talking to me and to the others. And when the fireman was talking to you, did did he have a did he sound like a man?
01:15:15 man? Yeah, he did. Did he keep his face mask on? Yes.
01:15:21 Now, um, how far into the flat did the firefighter come? He came into the kitchen and the living room.
01:15:32 room. I think um would be helpful now is just to show you a plan. Can we have ME3012593
01:15:42 and page 12 of that document, please?
01:15:47 And if we could just expand the uh bottom southwest corner, please.
01:15:59 Mhali, this may be a um plan that you you're familiar with, but uh it's one that we've used with other witnesses. It's the layout of floor four, but it
01:16:10 It's the layout of floor four, but it gives us the layout of all the floors above there. And so where we see flat three and in brackets 13, that would actually be the layout of flat 113. Yes.
01:16:20 Yes. So we can see there that there's a a kitchen uh and uh a lounge and the two windows of the lounge and the window of the kitchen would face um west and
01:16:33 of the kitchen would face um west and then there are two windows of the lounge facing south. Now, um, you say that the firefighter came into the lounge kitchen area. Um, what you also say in your
01:16:46 area. Um, what you also say in your statement is we showed the firemen that the fire could be seen from the windows on both sides of the flat. So, which windows are you referring to there? So, we were showing him from this
01:16:59 So, we were showing him from this window. I think it's the kitchen window. Oh, I think this one here. So it was nearly here the fire on the right side of the kitchen window.
01:17:11 of the kitchen window. So you you you your recollection is of taking the fireman to the kitchen window.
01:17:15 window. I think me and uh man did that. Yeah. And what did you yourself look out of the kitchen window? Um yes I did. And um you tell us that
01:17:29 Um yes I did. And um you tell us that the the the fire um the fire was on the right side as you're looking out of that kitchen window. Um can you give us a little more detail of
01:17:40 can you give us a little more detail of what you could see? It was spreading as well on the right side
01:17:47 side going up as well. um spreading as well very quickly going to the top and then moving to above our window.
01:17:56 window. So when you were looking out there was the fire already above your level? No, it was still on the right side. Um
01:18:05 Um but later on I think it started to move to the above of our window. But if we take it at that time Yeah.
01:18:13 Yeah. Um you're saying it was on the right side. Was it below you or the same level as your floor? I think it's the same level. I think or two floors below.
01:18:26 two floors below. Yeah.
01:18:31 Now, um
01:18:36 um you've told us who's in the flat at the moment. Your recollection was that, and correct me if I'm if I've got this wrong, that that everyone was in the lounge area. Is that right? Can you remember?
01:18:47 remember? I think yeah, everyone. Not sure if everyone, but yeah, what I remember it's everyone maybe. Um, where was Dennis Murphy at that time?
01:18:58 time? He uh he was next to the window, kitchen window, trying to have some fresh air and I think he was using his phone but
01:19:09 and I think he was using his phone but next to the kitchen window. Yeah. Um c can you um describe what condition Dennis Murphy was in at that time? Very quiet, very calm. He didn't say
01:19:20 Very quiet, very calm. He didn't say anything, but we knew that he wasn't in good situation. Now you say you you think he was using his phone? Yeah.
01:19:30 Yeah. Could you tell whether he was calling someone or whether he was receiving calls? I didn't hear him, but I could see that he was using his phone and he
01:19:41 see that he was using his phone and he was
01:19:42 was talking maybe or trying to call or not sure answering a call. Yeah. So, just so that we can be clear, you you remember Mr. Murphy with the phone to his ear.
01:19:53 phone to his ear. Yes.
01:19:54 Yes. But you didn't hear what he was saying to anyone? Um, Zabdan, what condition was she in at that time? She was just scared,
01:20:07 She was just scared, panicked. This quite panicked. Yeah. Now, in your um statement, you say that she was busy making phone calls. Do you remember who she was
01:20:18 calls. Do you remember who she was calling?
01:20:19 calling? No, I don't remember. Did you hear anything of what she was saying on the telephone? Not sure, but maybe friends or relatives. Um but again, do you remember Z of Dean
01:20:31 Um but again, do you remember Z of Dean having the phone to her ear? Yes.
01:20:36 Um can I take you now please to um
01:20:44 page 10 in your statement? Um so it's IWS78110 please. And can we expand paragraph 26?
01:21:04 Um
01:21:08 now I won't read out the whole statement but in this state the whole paragraph forgive me but in this paragraph what what you describe is um Olu um that's
01:21:20 what you describe is um Olu um that's Oluasen Talabi tying blankets together and trying to then climb out of the window with his daughter. Um, what you say in that paragraph was it was the living room
01:21:31 paragraph was it was the living room window facing the south side. I I I'll take you back to the plan to see if we can try and find out where everyone was at that time, but
01:21:43 everyone was at that time, but how clear are you in your mind that this was from the living room window? I'm not 100% sure. I don't think not sure if it was the living room or the bedroom because what I remember we moved
01:21:57 bedroom because what I remember we moved after from the living room to the bedroom. So I'm just I'm not I don't really remember if it was after we moved to the bedroom or before which is the living room.
01:22:09 living room. Um can you remember how soon after your arrival in flap 113 that Olu started trying to
01:22:18 trying to tie blankets together? I don't remember when exactly. No.
01:22:25 Do you remember him actually putting the the rope together? No. Uh I think it was ready. I saw that it was just out of the window. Yeah.
01:22:43 Um well, let's go back to um the plan that we were looking at. me3012593
01:22:51 and can we look at page 12 please?
01:23:00 Now in your statement as you said and and you said you might not be sure of this but if we take it in stages um your recollection when you made your
01:23:11 recollection when you made your statement was that the window that Mr. Talabi tried to climb out of was the living room window facing the south side. So if we look at that plan is is that one of the sort of
01:23:23 that plan is is that one of the sort of two windows that we see um at the at the bottom of the image. So just under flat three where it's written flat 313 was that
01:23:32 that so I'm not sure if it was this window or this window but what I remember it was facing this side. Um ju just to help you Mr. just love it. I think that on on this plan um where it
01:23:45 I think that on on this plan um where it shows the blue lines that those are the windows. So there are two windows in the in the living room and then there's a window each new bedroom.
01:23:53 bedroom. So with that, can you try and help us with which window you think Mr. Tilabi was trying to climb out of? So we're not sure if it's this one or this one here.
01:24:04 this one here. One of them. Yeah. But I'm sure it's not this one. It's not this. And it's not this side. So, it's either the window um in the
01:24:15 So, it's either the window um in the living room facing south and closest to the bedroom wall or um the window of the bedroom that's closest to the adjoining flat.
01:24:26 closest to the adjoining flat. Yes.
01:24:33 Do you remember how many times Mr. Talabi tried to climb out of the window? I think two or three times.
01:24:46 And when he was doing this, what were you and the other neighbors doing? Um, we didn't agree with him because we felt it's not strong enough for the
01:24:58 felt it's not strong enough for the blanket
01:25:00 blanket to do that. Like I didn't agree. I didn't think that he will escape through the blankets. So I
01:25:11 will escape through the blankets. So I tried to advise to don't do it. And was anybody else giving him the same advice?
01:25:17 advice? Yeah, I think my brother too and his partner Rosemary.
01:25:28 Now you've told us of um a recollection of a firefighter coming into the um
01:25:39 coming into the um flat and you're showing the firefighter that the the the fire from the window. Um later on um firefighters came back um and that was when you left the flat. I'm
01:25:52 and that was when you left the flat. I'm going to ask you questions about that in due course. But between those two events, so you're showing the firefighter the fire and then you're leaving the flat. Do you recall at all any other firefighters coming into the
01:26:04 any other firefighters coming into the flat at any time? You mean before I left? Yes. Flat. I think only once which when we showed
01:26:16 I think only once which when we showed him from the kitchen window. And that was just one firefighter. Yes. Only one firefighter. And and again so that we can just be clear was the next time that you encountered
01:26:27 next time that you encountered firefighters when you left the flat.
01:26:33 The next time which when I left the flats and the first time when I showed him the fire from the kitchen window. Yeah.
01:26:45 Thank you. Um I'll come back to that in in due course but um can I just ask you a few more questions about um Mr. Talabi um and his efforts to um
01:27:00 um and his efforts to um go out of the window. Uh do you remember helping him to open the window wider? Yes, I think uh we did but not for the blanket. I think to try and see
01:27:14 blanket. I think to try and see um see everything around us which is the right and left side and see the main entrance of the tower. Yeah. But the the window that he used um to
01:27:27 But the the window that he used um to tie the rope to. Do you remember helping him with that window? Not with tightening the blanket. No, just with opening the window that that he then used.
01:27:40 that that he then used. I'm not sure if it's the same window he used, but I remembered we opened a window widely just to try and have clear view. Yeah. Of everything around us.
01:27:55 view. Yeah. Of everything around us. And we know that Mr. Talabi tied that makeshift rope Yes.
01:28:00 Yes. to part of a window. You've told us that you you now are not sure which window it was. Yeah. But do you remember at all um
01:28:11 Yeah. But do you remember at all um taking part of that window coming off at all?
01:28:14 all? No, it wasn't taken off. No.
01:28:19 Now, what you also say um is that Mr. Talabi had tied his daughter to his back. Yes, he did.
01:28:30 Yes, he did. Now, did once he'd done that, did she stay tied to his back? Not perfect. no wasn't good at all. So I didn't really
01:28:41 didn't really see that she is 100% fitted to his back. But um
01:28:50 let's go back to um paragraph 26 then on page 10 please.
01:29:05 um
01:29:10 what what you say and it's I I'll I'll pick it up from this sentence. Olu tied his young daughter to his back with a blanket and he was about to leave the window with her attached to his back. Uh she was crying and didn't want him to do
01:29:21 she was crying and didn't want him to do it. Olu's wife didn't want him to try and get out through the window. He was saying that he was doing it for their daughter. He then undid the blankets and took his daughter out. Um, and then you
01:29:32 took his daughter out. Um, and then you say he then climbed out of the window. Um, and he got stuck in a position and your brother and yourself grabbed hold of him and pulled him back in. Is that is that something that you still remember now?
01:29:43 remember now? Yes.
01:29:44 Yes. Um, and just to go back to my question, you told us that there was a time when Mr. Talabi tied his daughter to his back. Do you remember him then untying
01:29:57 back. Do you remember him then untying his daughter from his back? I remembered I think it was him and his partner who untied the his daughter. Yeah.
01:30:09 Now, um you may not be able to help us with this and tell us if you can't, but um
01:30:20 when you're in your mind picturing Mr. Tilabi by that window. Are you clear in your mind that it was in the lounge or in a bedroom?
01:30:33 in the lounge or in a bedroom? I'm not clear. Maybe the bedroom because I remembered seeing children's lying on the double bed.
01:30:44 the double bed. So I I think it's the bedroom, but not 100% sure. Yeah. Now, was do you remember everyone else who was in the flat being in the same room
01:30:56 was in the flat being in the same room as Mr. Talabi when he was trying to climb out of the window? I remember seeing Zanab and her son in the bedroom because her son was on the bed.
01:31:11 because her son was on the bed. So, I knew that time we are in a bedroom. Yeah. And again, was that did you see them before or after Mr. Talabi had tried to exit through the window?
01:31:23 exit through the window? I don't remember. I think not sure really if it's after, but maybe after. Not sure if it's after or during that time. Yeah.
01:31:38 When you were in flat um 113, were the lights in the flat working? Yes.
01:31:45 Yes. And and which rooms had lights on? The bedroom and the living room. Um uh I don't remember if it if we had light in the corridor area, but I remembered it
01:31:59 the corridor area, but I remembered it was darker than the living room and the bedroom.
01:32:06 Well, let's go back um now and let's look at paragraphs 27 and 28 on the same page, please.
01:32:17 Um
01:32:20 in the sequence of events that you set out in your statement. Um, this is what would read as what happens after Mr. Talabi had had tried to leave by the window and you say that Dennis Murphy
01:32:31 window and you say that Dennis Murphy wasn't talking, was just next to the kitchen window on the west side looking at the fire. Um,
01:32:40 had Mr. Murphy's condition changed at all in the time from when he arrived in in your flat? No, just staying calm and quiet all the
01:32:52 just staying calm and quiet all the time.
01:32:53 time. And you've placed him there in the kitchen or by the kitchen window. Do do you recall him ever moving to other parts of the flat? I think he moved with us to the bedroom
01:33:05 I think he moved with us to the bedroom and maybe that was an advice from the firefighter when he saw the fire to move to the bedroom which is safer to us than being in the lounge and kitchen area.
01:33:19 Now, this was this the firefighter that you taken to show the fire to? Yes. Um,
01:33:31 what is it that now makes you uh think that the firefighter gave some advice?
01:33:39 He gave some advice maybe because he tried to put us in the safest area which is
01:33:48 which is the one which is very far from the fire. Do you have a clear recollection in your mind that the firefighter did give some advice?
01:34:02 I don't um I don't think it was an advice but not really good advice. Yeah.
01:34:12 Yeah. Let's take that in stages. Um you've taken the firefighter to see the fire from the kitchen window. Yeah.
01:34:20 Yeah. Do you now remember the firefighter giving you advice? Yes, I remembered him. I think yeah, I remembered because we moved to the bedroom
01:34:31 moved to the bedroom because he said that.
01:34:39 Well, let let's just go back previous page, page nine, please, and look at paragraph 25 again.
01:34:54 Just expand 25. Um, what you said in your statement was the firefighter looked at the fire from the window on the west side and just said okay. He
01:35:05 the west side and just said okay. He again told us to stay where we were and then left. So, um, what is it that now, um, makes you believe that what the
01:35:16 um, makes you believe that what the firefighter told you was to move to the bedroom?
01:35:21 I'm not really certain about this, but what I think we have moved to the bedroom cuz we have been advised. So it
01:35:32 bedroom cuz we have been advised. So it might be the firefighter or maybe we advised each other to move to the bedroom which is safer. So not really sure about why we moved to the bedroom.
01:35:43 sure about why we moved to the bedroom. Yeah. But what I remember he was the firefighter. He was very quiet as well and he said maybe few words. One of them is okay. Yeah.
01:35:54 is okay. Yeah. Now you've told us that you can't be sure whether um Mr. Talabi tried to leave via a window in the living room or via a window in the bedroom.
01:36:06 or via a window in the bedroom. Yes, because sorry, we spent some time in the living room and other time in the bedroom. So, I'm not sure where it was that. Yeah,
01:36:19 that. Yeah, but doing the best you can. Do Do you think that that is it possible that you may have moved to the bedroom after he had tried to leave by a window?
01:36:30 had tried to leave by a window? I'm not sure. I'm not sure if it was after or before.
01:36:42 Let's go back please to paragraph 27 on page 10.
01:36:53 Um, we've we've looked at this, but I just want to pick up on the second sentence. The rest of us were in the living room next to the window on the south side. We were talking about escape plans, whether it was safe to leave from
01:37:04 plans, whether it was safe to leave from the stairwell.
01:37:08 Is that still your recollection that when you had a discussion about escape plans, you were in the living room? Um,
01:37:17 Um, at the beginning we were in the living room and we spoke about many things. Um, I'm not sure if this discussion was in the living room or the bedroom, but
01:37:29 in the living room or the bedroom, but maybe in both of them cuz Yeah. Are you able to help us at all with how soon after this firefighter left that you moved into the bedroom?
01:37:41 I can't remember, but not really long time, I think. Yeah.
01:37:49 Again,
01:37:54 let's look at um paragraph 28. Now,
01:38:05 um you say that every time we looked out of the window, we could see the fire was getting closer and closer to us. I looked east towards my flat next door
01:38:17 I looked east towards my flat next door out of the windows facing south and could see the whole flat was burning and on fire. Again, just so that we can be clear, can you remember which window you were looking out at? Um, I think it was the bedroom bedroom
01:38:31 Um, I think it was the bedroom bedroom window.
01:38:36 And yeah, maybe I as well checked from the living room window as well.
01:38:50 Um
01:38:53 let's go back to the um plan then. M3012593
01:38:59 M3012593 page 12 please
01:39:07 just expand flat three. Thank you. So, if we're looking south, you have two windows in the lounge marked with the blue lines, and you have two bedrooms.
01:39:20 blue lines, and you have two bedrooms. Now, um, in paragraph 28 that we were looking at, you you refer to one window to looking out of one window. So, do you remember looking out of the window on
01:39:31 remember looking out of the window on more than one occasion now? Yes, I looked from the window for for many times actually. Yeah, I checked from the window many times. I remembered
01:39:44 from the window many times. I remembered checking from the lounge window and the bedroom window. Um, and when you say that the lounge window is, is that the window that you indicated earlier? The one that's
01:39:56 indicated earlier? The one that's closest to the bedroom? Yes, this one. Mhm.
01:40:00 Mhm. Um, there are two bedroom windows that face in the same direction. So, this bedroom, what makes you what what what is it that uh tells you
01:40:12 what what what is it that uh tells you that you were in that bedroom rather than the other bedroom? Because I remembered we were um opposite of the front door and um it had a double bed.
01:40:26 it had a double bed. So, yeah.
01:40:35 what you say and I'll take you back to it if you need it. I I look east towards my flat next door out of the windows facing south and could see the whole flat was burning and on fire. The fire
01:40:47 flat was burning and on fire. The fire was getting closer to us. This was around 2:45 a.m. Um what do you base that timing on?
01:41:00 on I checked the time when I left the tower.
01:41:05 tower. So,
01:41:07 So, uh when so when I checked from the window, it was maybe 15 minutes before I left the tower. Yeah. And how did you check the time when you left the the tower?
01:41:19 left the the tower? I think by my phone cuz my phone was with me.
01:41:26 You say in paragraph 28 that smoke was now getting stronger. Um, where was the smoke coming from? From the front door to the corridor.
01:41:38 From the front door to the corridor. And was this the front the front door of flat 113?
01:41:41 flat 113? Yes.
01:41:42 Yes. And and could you see how the smoke was getting into the front door of flat 113? Um, it was dark in the corridor area and front of the door as well. It was
01:41:53 front of the door as well. It was getting darker and I remembered we used blankets to try and stop the smoke on the bottom of the door. And um did that work?
01:42:05 And um did that work? I don't think it did. No, maybe the smoke as well was coming from somewhere else, not just the bottom. Yeah.
01:42:15 Yeah. And um how was the visibility in the corridor of flat 113 at that time? Not that clear. like maybe I'll say 50%.
01:42:31 So
01:42:34 you say that the the heat of the flat was getting hotter and hotter. Hallway was darker than the other rooms. It started to get harder to breathe. We were all sweating from the heat. So where where you're talking about the
01:42:46 where where you're talking about the heat of the flat, is that conditions inside flat 113? Yes.
01:42:51 Yes. And aside from the smoke coming through the front door, were you were a smoke coming into the flat from anywhere else? I'm not sure if it was coming from anywhere else, but we could smell it and
01:43:02 anywhere else, but we could smell it and we could feel it was getting hotter there. Yeah. But you've told us that you you I mean doing the best you can. You've identified two windows that you looked out of. Were you aware of smoke coming
01:43:14 out of. Were you aware of smoke coming into the flat through those windows? I don't think it was coming from the windows, otherwise we would close it. I think we kept it open that time.
01:43:28 think we kept it open that time. Um,
01:43:30 Um, do you remember what happened to the makeshift rope that Mr. Talabi had had fashioned? No, I don't remember. Do you remember it being tied to a window frame? I remembered it was
01:43:43 window frame? I remembered it was tighted, but I don't know if they pulled it out or they untied it again or I don't remember that.
01:44:02 And and just so that we can be clear, uh you're saying at paragraph 28, every time we looked out of the window, um and you refer to windows facing south, could
01:44:13 you refer to windows facing south, could this be one of the two windows that you've identified? Yes.
01:44:22 Can we look then at um page 11? IWS781 page 11. And can we have a look at um paragraph 29 please?
01:44:36 We begin that paragraph of the sentence. As the fire was coming closest to us, everyone started to run around shouting and it was getting manic in the flat. We were shouting and walking around everywhere. Everyone was panicking. We
01:44:49 everywhere. Everyone was panicking. We thought to open the windows. We also thought to open the front door to leave. Uh taking that in stages. Where was everyone going in the flat?
01:45:00 everyone going in the flat? I remembered we last time we were in the bedroom. Um the one with double beds and because we were it was small and we were
01:45:12 because we were it was small and we were too many in one bedroom. So we started to just walk around and maybe maybe we left the bedroom to check other the living room and come back again. Some of
01:45:23 living room and come back again. Some of us not sure. Yeah. So there are eight people in the flat. Yes.
01:45:28 Yes. Um can you remember were you one of those people who was moving around? Yes.
01:45:34 Yes. What about your brother Muhammad? I think he was with me most of the time. We were next to each other. Yeah. Um,
01:45:43 Um, what about Zayden? Can you remember what she did?
01:45:46 she did? I remembered. Yeah, she was crying and um scared and and she was um she she put her child in the bed. So
01:45:58 she she put her child in the bed. So yeah, her son was in the bed. That's why I remember she she was in the bedroom because I remember her son was in the bed and she was saying few words like I lost a son
01:46:11 saying few words like I lost a son before and I don't wanted to lose to lose the other one. And you you say that Zay placed her son on the bed. Did she stay in the bedroom
01:46:23 on the bed. Did she stay in the bedroom or did she go anywhere else in the flat? I don't know if she went somewhere else. some for some times, but I remember seeing her in the bedroom. Yeah.
01:46:34 seeing her in the bedroom. Yeah. And what about Dennis Murphy? Do you remember him moving around the flat? I don't remember if he as well was moving around. As well, I saw him in the bedroom.
01:46:47 Um, aside from the people I've mentioned, there's obviously the the the um occupants of the flat. Um, Mr. Talabi, his partner Rosemary, and their daughter. Can you remember where they
01:46:58 daughter. Can you remember where they were?
01:47:00 were? Their daughter was in the bed as well next to Zayaban, but Olu and his wife, they were around the bed.
01:47:09 the bed. Yeah.
01:47:10 Yeah. So you it's your recollection that they stayed in the bedroom with their daughter.
01:47:16 daughter. Well, yeah, I think they they stayed there with their daughter, but not sure if they checked or they went out to the living room to see or and come back. Yeah.
01:47:34 Um, can we look at paragraph 31, please?
01:47:40 Now, um, I'm just going to read the first two lines. I I looked outside the living room window, which was open. As I looked above, I could see the flames of the fire. Fire was coming from above and
01:47:51 the fire. Fire was coming from above and from the left. It was coming from flat 112 and from above. Uh, when I looked to the left, I could see our flat 112. Again, um, can you help us with which window you looked out at at this time? I
01:48:05 window you looked out at at this time? I think it was the bedroom window. And what you've written there that it was the living room window. What is it that makes you now say that it's the bedroom window? Because I checked from the living room
01:48:18 Because I checked from the living room window at the beginning and then I checked from the bedroom window. So, it's both of them. But earlier in the living room and later on in the bedroom you've told us that you doing the best
01:48:30 you've told us that you doing the best you can. You can remember that you were one of those who moved around the flat. Yeah.
01:48:35 Yeah. So you would have gone from bedroom to living room and back wouldn't you? Yes. So if you are moving around um between those two rooms um what is it
01:48:49 um between those two rooms um what is it that now makes you clear in your recollection that actually it was the bedroom window from which you saw things because of the double bed I've seen in the bedroom and the children and the
01:49:00 the bedroom and the children and the double beds. I wasn't checking that much in the flat if it's living or bedroom if it's living room or bedroom. But because of the double bed I've seen, so I it was
01:49:12 of the double bed I've seen, so I it was the bedroom. Yeah.
01:49:14 Yeah. Um if you were at that living room window, um and it's I think it's one of the two windows that you've indicated earlier, isn't it? So it's the living room window closest to the the bedroom,
01:49:26 room window closest to the the bedroom, one of the bedrooms. If you were out of that living room window and it was open, that would that give you a view of your flat 112?
01:49:36 flat 112? would give me I could see flames but not really my flat but I could see flames on on the side on the left side of 113. So
01:49:47 on the side on the left side of 113. So I realized that should be my flat 112.
01:49:54 Um, so if we look at what you've described in paragraph 31 that that you you described the fire traveling downwards from the top, coming across from your flat, also coming from the northwestern
01:50:07 flat, also coming from the northwestern side and traveling to where we were. Fire was blue and red in color. The flames looked so close. I thought to myself, in a couple of minutes, the flames will be inside flap 113. The
01:50:18 flames will be inside flap 113. The flames were less than 5 m away from the window. I looked down towards the ground, but the flames were coming mainly from the top and traveling down towards us. Um, just again so that we
01:50:29 towards us. Um, just again so that we can be clear, you've got two windows that you say you looked out of and they look out in the same direction and the flat next door is your flat,
01:50:41 and the flat next door is your flat, flat 112.
01:50:44 flat 112. Is it possible that what you've described in this paragraph was something that you could have seen from that living room window? I think you could see that from both windows, living room and the bedroom because the fire
01:50:57 room and the bedroom because the fire was spreading from the left side on the top of our windows of 113 windows.
01:51:07 Um could we then just pick it up um at paragraph 32 on the same page please? Um,
01:51:17 Um, I'm just going to take you through this paragraph, Mr. Hajali.
01:51:25 Do you think this would be a good moment?
01:51:26 moment? It will actually be a good moment because we're getting to a Yeah.
01:51:29 Yeah. important part of the army. I think we'll have another break, Mr. Charlie.
01:51:34 Charlie. Um, I'll say 5 12. Give you a bit of a time to stretch your legs and Okay. Thank you. cover. All right. Then please don't talk to anyone about your evidence. All right. Thank you.
01:51:55 5 12
02:03:58 All right, Mr. Thank you. Happy to carry on. Thank you. Yes, Mr. Robert. Thank you, sir. Um, could we have please on the screen IWS781,
02:04:09 on the screen IWS781, page 11, please? Paragraph 32 if you can.
02:04:28 Thank you. Um
02:04:34 Mr. Alhajali, um we're now coming to that point um in the night when um you left flat 113. Um, and I
02:04:47 in this paragraph you um speak of the arrival of firefighters at the flat door. But before we get into that detail, I just want to ask you just to
02:04:58 detail, I just want to ask you just to go back a little bit in time and just um I just want to ask you a couple of questions about what's going on in the flat just before the firefighters arrived. Do you follow? Um, now the
02:05:10 arrived. Do you follow? Um, now the first thing to clear is you you say at nearly 3:00 a.m. Um, and that's how you begin the the paragraph. What do you base that time being on?
02:05:23 What do you base that time being on? Just timing. Maybe checking time on the phone or maybe I check the time after I left straight away. So I base that on on the time. Do
02:05:38 away. So I base that on on the time. Do you have a clear memory of after you'd left and and were outside the tower of checking the time on the phone? Yes.
02:05:45 Yes. And what time did it give you your phone when you left the tower? Around 3:00, but I'm not sure exactly what time is it. Now,
02:05:57 Now, at about this time and before anybody had arrived at flat 113, what were the conditions like in the flat? It was getting hotter. Um, everyone was
02:06:10 It was getting hotter. Um, everyone was scared and panicked and the smoke was getting thicker and we could smell it for more than before actually.
02:06:21 for more than before actually. And where was the smoke coming into the flat from? From the front door. And whereabouts in the flat was it getting thicker? In the corridor and going into
02:06:33 In the corridor and going into the bedrooms, I think. Yeah. Um, what about the living room? I'm not sure about the living room. Not really clear.
02:06:45 really clear. Do you remember whether I'm sorry to interrupt? You were going to say something. No, it's fine. I'm just trying to remember if it was really dark as were in the living room or not, but I don't
02:06:57 in the living room or not, but I don't remember because I'm not sure where I was that time. If I was in the bedroom or the living room. Yeah, thank you. Um you you probably preempted my next question which was to ask you
02:07:09 my next question which was to ask you whether you remember whether there were any lights on in the flat. Yes, we had lights and but not on the corridor. It was dark in the corridor.
02:07:20 in the corridor. So we had light in the bedroom. That's why I remember. And do you remember any lights on in the living room? Before? Yes. And after? Not really. Sure.
02:07:33 Sure. in the corridor the the hallway that leads to the front door. What was the visibility like at that time? Hard like you cannot see clearly like
02:07:44 Hard like you cannot see clearly like it's not it's maybe it was like you could see for maybe if someone is close to you you can see him but not really far. Yeah.
02:07:56 see him but not really far. Yeah. And was that just in the was that difficulty just in the hallway? In the hallway. Yeah. Um,
02:08:03 Um, doing the best you can, can you help us with this? Um, just before
02:08:10 the firemen came, where was everyone in the flat? Can you remember? I don't remember, but I remembered that we were in the bedroom, but not sure if
02:08:23 we were in the bedroom, but not sure if it was when the firefighter opened when they opened the door. Not sure if it at that time we were in the bedroom or not because we we started to just move
02:08:36 because we we started to just move around and trying to look everywhere. Yeah. So at that time do you still have a clear recollection of people moving around within the flat?
02:08:51 Not sure if it was if if everyone was going to other rooms or to the living room or not, but I remembered most of the time we were in one room together
02:09:02 the time we were in one room together and moving in the same room together. Yeah.
02:09:06 Yeah. And what room was that? I think it's the bedroom. Yeah.
02:09:13 And that was because of the double bed again. Yeah.
02:09:19 If we just I'll just read out paragraph 32. At nearly 3:00 a.m., the fire was very close to us when I noticed that someone had opened the front door and the firemen were there. I think Muhammad was in the living room. I saw Olu
02:09:31 was in the living room. I saw Olu running towards the front door. I did not hear a knock. We were all in the living room. There was smoke in the living room, but not as much as in the hallway next to the front door. Olu
02:09:42 hallway next to the front door. Olu started to run towards the front door. So, I followed him. He is with his daughter and wife. When the fireman came to the door, the smoke was very strong. I tried to look back behind me, but I
02:09:53 I tried to look back behind me, but I could not see anything because of how thick the smoke was in the hallway around the door area. Before the door was open, there was a little bit of smoke. When the door was open, thick and black smoke was coming in.
02:10:05 black smoke was coming in. Now, it taking it as of today, before you saw any firemen, did you hear any knocking at the front door? No.
02:10:15 No. Did you see anyone open the front door? Not at that time. I I could hear that I could hear a little bit voices next to
02:10:28 could hear a little bit voices next to the door, but couldn't really see someone opening the door. No.
02:10:38 Why was it that you could only hear voices and not see someone? because uh I hear the voices and when I hear the voices I then try to go to check in the
02:10:50 voices I then try to go to check in the front door. Right. Well, let's do it with with the plan. M3012593, please.
02:11:01 Thank you. Um so,
02:11:07 where were you when you heard voices? This is what I don't remember actually, but I remembered myself following
02:11:17 following Ulu or his partner Rosemary because and trying to follow them and check the voices that's coming from the front door. So, not sure if that time it was
02:11:29 door. So, not sure if that time it was the bedroom or the living room. I hear is saying the living room but I think that was that's not really you know certain or 100%. Yeah.
02:11:42 really you know certain or 100%. Yeah. So the best that you can do today is say you may have been in the living room or in a bedroom. I think it's the bedroom because most of the time we were in the bedroom.
02:11:54 Um when you followed the voice you heard voices and you you follow where did you go? Where did I go? Yes. When you heard these voices, I I was going um forward the front door
02:12:10 I I was going um forward the front door towards the front door. So um behind I think I think it was Olu. I think it's behind Olu. And when you say you were following,
02:12:21 And when you say you were following, were were you walking or walking? Yeah. And what was Olu doing? I think he was moving quickly. maybe running, maybe walking, not sure.
02:12:34 running, maybe walking, not sure. Um, we can see the hall on that plan that's up on the screen there. Yeah. And you can see that there's a there's a bend. So, it's an L sh an inverse L shape. But
02:12:45 shape. But how where were you? Can you remember where you were um when you first saw a firefighter? I think it's the bedroom, but still not really sure if it's the bedroom or the
02:12:57 really sure if it's the bedroom or the living room. Yeah, but I think it's the bedroom because Yeah, because most of the time recently we were in the bedroom.
02:13:10 So, just again, please clarify this because you you said that you'd heard voices. Yes. And then you followed Olu. Shall I point to that? Well, um but do you now remember being
02:13:23 Well, um but do you now remember being in a room and being able to see a firefighter? I I couldn't see. I could hear and maybe I could see shape of someone of but not
02:13:35 I could see shape of someone of but not really seeing a firefighter. Yeah.
02:13:40 What is it that you could hear? I could hear people saying let's go, let's go or something like shouting or something like that. Yeah.
02:13:51 something like that. Yeah. And um
02:13:54 And um do you have a clear recollection of seeing shapes? I think I saw not really. How many? One or two maximum.
02:14:05 maximum. Where were those shapes? Um just at this area here exactly here or maximum by this area here in the corridor not far from the
02:14:18 here in the corridor not far from the front door. And do you remember seeing those shapes before you went into the hallway? No.
02:14:25 No. So where were you standing when you saw those shapes? I remember I was coming either from the bedroom following Olu
02:14:36 bedroom following Olu then here where I stopped seeing anything
02:14:41 anything or it might be I was coming from this area. But what I remember uh most of the time I remember that everyone else was behind me not in front
02:14:52 everyone else was behind me not in front of me. So um take that stage. Who was in front? Who do you remember being in front of you? Olu only. Yeah, that's what I saw in front of me and maybe his partner too, but not the
02:15:05 and maybe his partner too, but not the rest front of me. And do you remember how they were carrying their daughter? No, I couldn't see that. So, you've you've heard voices. Um, and then you you say that you may have
02:15:17 then you you say that you may have either been in the bedroom or the living room. Um, and just so that we can say where the record was, you you
02:15:28 you you either um you were either in Again, just help us with where exactly do you think you were when you saw these shapes? I think it was the bedroom. Yeah.
02:15:41 I think it was the bedroom. Yeah. But were you in the hallway before you saw the shapes or were you still in the bedroom when you saw the shapes? I was still in the bedroom and maybe
02:15:52 Yeah, I think it I was in the bedroom. Yeah. Yeah.
02:16:03 So, do you remember um when the bedroom door had been opened? What time you mean? Yes. Not sure what time, but nearly around 3:00. Yeah.
02:16:14 3:00. Yeah. And why is it that you recall it being opened at nearly around 3:00? Because I checked at the time after I left the tower. And do you remember who opened the bedroom door?
02:16:27 bedroom door? No, the bedroom door. No.
02:16:32 I don't I don't know if it was closed or open as well. Yeah. Well, not sure. Would you accept that for you to be able to see shapes from the bedroom, the
02:16:44 to see shapes from the bedroom, the bedroom door would have had to be open? No, I I could see shapes when I when I was in the corridor in the hallway. So, I'm I'm um I don't want to get you
02:16:56 So, I'm I'm um I don't want to get you confused, so can we just take it again in steps?
02:16:59 in steps? Mhm.
02:17:01 Mhm. You were either in the living room or the bedroom. Yeah.
02:17:05 Yeah. And it's the bedroom with a double bed in it. And yeah, I think mostly in the bedroom.
02:17:10 bedroom. And you then heard voices and you recall following Olu. Yeah. Olu or his partner or two of them, I think. Yeah. So you then left either the living room
02:17:23 So you then left either the living room or the bedroom. Is that right? Yes. But I would say mostly the bedroom. Yeah. Now, when you first saw shapes, can you use
02:17:34 when you first saw shapes, can you use that plan just to indicate where you were when you first saw shapes? I I was when I arrived to the hallway, I remember that I couldn't see anymore.
02:17:46 I remember that I couldn't see anymore. I got lost here because of the smoke, how it was very thick, dark. So I started to move going here left and right and left and right and hitting the
02:17:57 right and left and right and hitting the walls sometimes. And
02:18:05 before you got to that point, could you see shapes? No.
02:18:10 No. So was it at that point that you had an idea of shapes? Yes.
02:18:14 Yes. So just for the record, that's at the um the bend
02:18:19 the bend of the in the hall. uh where it would bend turning if one's walking from the front door turning right towards the lounge.
02:18:30 Um how many shapes could you see? I heard many voices but I could see one shape I think. Yeah, one or two maximum.
02:18:42 shape I think. Yeah, one or two maximum. I think I started to see many shapes closer to that door, front door.
02:18:57 And when you say closer to the front door, were these shapes inside the flat or
02:19:03 or I think because it was open the door that time, so I could see out of the door, not inside. So just help us with this. If the front door was open, what were the conditions
02:19:15 door was open, what were the conditions like in the hallway? very dark, very smokeoky, and I couldn't see anything and I couldn't even breathe that time. And that was even before you'd got into
02:19:26 And that was even before you'd got into the communal area. Yes.
02:19:29 Yes. Um, whilst you were still in the hallway, did you have a sense of what the conditions were like in the communal area?
02:19:38 area? uh the the condition it was very it when they opened the door when I started to hear this voices and I went to this hallway
02:19:47 hallway uh here where I couldn't see anything but I heard voices next to the door and I realized that the door is open because of the voices and how thick the smoke
02:19:59 of the voices and how thick the smoke was
02:20:00 was coming in. Yeah. And we we've talked about shapes or and voices. Um was there anything else about these
02:20:11 was there anything else about these shapes that that
02:20:14 indicated that there were firefighters?
02:20:18 Any other? Sorry. Again, was there anything else about the shapes that told you that that it was firefighters at the front door? I think I heard someone or people saying
02:20:30 I think I heard someone or people saying let's go, let's go or walk. Something like that. Do you have a recollection of seeing anybody wearing a mask? No.
02:20:42 You've described that your recollection is of Olu in front of you, possibly Rosemary. Um, where was your brother Muhammad
02:20:53 at that time? Not sure, but I remembered that he was behind me, but not sure where exactly. But I remembered walk
02:21:04 where exactly. But I remembered walk following Olu to check what's happening outside and he was behind me somewhere. Um,
02:21:12 Um, when you say behind you, how close behind you was your brother? Very close. We were next to each other. I I just walked to check.
02:21:23 I I just walked to check. So maybe he waited for me to check. Not sure why he did. Um, do you remember what your brother was doing just before the you heard the voices at the front door?
02:21:36 you heard the voices at the front door? I remember I remember we were talking to each other, but when I started to follow Ulu, I don't remember what he was doing.
02:21:50 Um, can you remember where Dennis was? Yeah, don't remember. And what about Zab and her son? Can you remember where they were at this time?
02:22:01 remember where they were at this time? I think next to the bed. I think her son was in the bed, but I'm not sure where she was exactly.
02:22:11 Um, one of the places that you put yourself as coming from um was the lounge. Do you remember whether the lights were on in the lounge at this time?
02:22:23 the lounge at this time? I don't remember now. Um, do you remember whether the door to the lounge was open or closed? I don't remember as well. That's if it was open and closed. But I don't think
02:22:35 was open and closed. But I don't think we on my way to the hallway. I saw a closed door. Everything was opened. Yeah,
02:22:48 as you know. And I'm I'm going to do it by um
02:22:52 by um putting up your supplementary statement which is um IWS401052. Please
02:23:05 can we expand paragraph two?
02:23:12 Now, this you've set out in your supplementary statement uh part of the account given uh in a statement uh by firefighter Peter Herrera. Um and he's
02:23:23 firefighter Peter Herrera. Um and he's also um given oral evidence to the inquiry.
02:23:27 inquiry. His account, and I'm summarizing, is of seeing a silhouette walking into the lounge of flat 113 and speaking with a man with a Middle Eastern accent. Firefighter Herrera has said that he
02:23:39 Firefighter Herrera has said that he asked this man if there was anyone else in the flat and the man replied, "No, I am the last one." Did you have a conversation like that with firefighter Herrera?
02:23:50 with firefighter Herrera? No, that didn't happen. What is it that makes you sure that it didn't happen? Because that time I knew that everyone is behind me. Not
02:24:02 I knew that everyone is behind me. Not everyone, but the rest. And I didn't search the rooms to make sure that no one else in the flat and in the hallway
02:24:13 one else in the flat and in the hallway I couldn't see or breathe to even talk or have a conversation and I couldn't see anyone only shape. Um, can we just look at the Sorry, can I just ask did you have any
02:24:25 Sorry, can I just ask did you have any words with the fireman? Did he say anything to you or did you say anything to him? Nothing at all. I didn't have any conversation. I remembered myself being pulled out. Mhm.
02:24:35 Mhm. That's only what I remembered. Yeah. Nothing else. I didn't have any conversation. Right. Thank you. Which point in the flat had you reached when you uh recall being pulled out?
02:24:46 when you uh recall being pulled out? Uh not far from the door in the hallway, I think. Yeah. So, I was lost trying to walk around trying to see anything touching walls and then someone pulled me out and pushed me outside. And and
02:25:00 me out and pushed me outside. And and was that by the front door? Yes.
02:25:03 Yes. Um
02:25:05 Um you've said that Olu was in front of you and you've told us about Rosemary and you've given evidence that everyone was behind you. Do you ever have a do you have a recollection of a firefighter coming uh
02:25:16 recollection of a firefighter coming uh into the lounge area at all? No.
02:25:19 No. Do you remember a firefighter coming into the bedroom at all? No. Um, we've seen how the um hallway has a bend in it. Um, and
02:25:31 hallway has a bend in it. Um, and there's a right-hand turn as it goes towards the lounge. Do you remember a firefighter being in the part of the lounge that led in the part of the hallway that led to the lounge at all?
02:25:42 lounge at all? No. I remembered the only time I started to see shape it just in the hallway not far from the front door very close to the front door. Can I um if we could
02:25:55 the front door. Can I um if we could just have the whole of of that statement please for a moment.
02:26:03 Mr. Alhajali, when we began um with your evidence um I pointed out that when you although you'd signed the statement, it wasn't dated. There is however a date at the top of the statement um which is the
02:26:15 the top of the statement um which is the 5th of September 2018 and we know that firefighter Herrera gave evidence on the 6th of September. Can I just ex ask um if Ralph if you
02:26:27 Can I just ex ask um if Ralph if you could expand paragraph three please?
02:26:34 You say there as you've said today that um firefighter Herrera's account is not true and you continue most of the time we were in flat we were in the living room area but people would often walk
02:26:45 room area but people would often walk around the flat just not knowing what to do or looking for an idea to get out. Muhammad was in the living room and I was in the hallway not far from the front door when the door opened.
02:26:58 front door when the door opened. Now, what you told us today
02:27:03 in October was that Muhammad that all you can remember is that Muhammad was behind you. Um, why were you able in in on the 5th of
02:27:14 why were you able in in on the 5th of September to say that Muhammad was in the living room? Um, this is what um I I knew that we were all in one bedroom, either the the bedroom or the living room,
02:27:26 bedroom or the living room, but I was I'm not 100% sure if it's the bedroom. So maybe I said the living room because I didn't check how it looks around me, the flat or but I knew that
02:27:38 around me, the flat or but I knew that we were most of us or all of us in one room.
02:27:43 room. Maybe I said the living room because I got lost in the hallway so I didn't really remember where I came from. Either the bedroom or the living room. Yeah.
02:27:54 Yeah. So where it says Muhammad was in the living room, is that something you can stand by today? It just because everyone was in the same bedroom or living room, so I knew
02:28:06 bedroom or living room, so I knew Muhammad was with them. Yeah. So is the best that you can do today say that that what you you recall is that Muhammad was with everybody else?
02:28:17 Muhammad was with everybody else? Yes.
02:28:17 Yes. And that could have been either in a bedroom or in a living room. Yes.
02:28:22 Yes. What you don't mention in that paragraph is bedroom. It's what? You don't say the word. That paragraph doesn't contain the word bedroom, does it?
02:28:31 it? Yeah. I think it was just misunderstanding because I said that time when I was giving evidence that I don't remember exactly if it's the living room or the bedroom but it has
02:28:42 living room or the bedroom but it has been written as a living room. Yeah.
02:28:45 Yeah. So when you made this statement were you still were you at that time of making the statement unclear about whether it was the bedroom or the living room? Yes.
02:28:54 Yes. Um but but the person helping you with the statement didn't record that it could have been the bedroom. Yes. And when you signed that statement, did
02:29:06 And when you signed that statement, did you not check the the the statement to see whether or not it referred to bedroom?
02:29:13 bedroom? I I read it, but I didn't really check exactly this words living room or bedroom cuz I wasn't sure about it. So, I didn't really, you know, focus on
02:29:24 I didn't really, you know, focus on that. Yeah. So if we pull it together um and doing the best that you can today it is the best that you can say is that
02:29:35 it is the best that you can say is that your brother and others were behind you. Yes.
02:29:38 Yes. But you can't be sure of which room they were in.
02:29:41 were in. Yeah.
02:29:42 Yeah. Thank you. Um can we go back please to your
02:29:49 your first statement?
02:29:53 Um
02:29:56 and go please to page 12.
02:30:07 If we pick up paragraph 33, please.
02:30:12 Um you've already given us some detail about how you left the flat. Uh, but I just want to ask some um additional details, please. You've told
02:30:24 additional details, please. You've told us that you remember being pulled out of the flat. Once you got into the communal area, were you assisted at all? Um, when I've been pulled out, I I remember that
02:30:39 I've been pulled out, I I remember that I I I've been pulled out to the communal area and here where I stopped completely breathing and I was just breathing smoke and couldn't really see anything. But I
02:30:50 and couldn't really see anything. But I remembered myself being hit by or being I I touched someone either of I think firefighter or someone
02:31:01 either of I think firefighter or someone but he pushed me again towards the stairs and another one as well pushed me. So they were pushing me all the time and directing me where to go. I wasn't walking. I was pushed actually. So,
02:31:16 walking. I was pushed actually. So, and I tried to talk or shout that time or saying or anything and I tried to say that I'm not breathing or I tried to say to shout about to say what to check where is my brother but I couldn't at
02:31:29 where is my brother but I couldn't at all. I couldn't see. I've been pushed that time. Do you um remember getting any instructions as to which direction to go?
02:31:37 go? No, just they were pushing me. That's what I remember. Yeah. Um, you've described in in in your statement the conditions in the communal area. Um,
02:31:49 the conditions in the communal area. Um, did the firefighters have torches or anything like that? I don't know, but I couldn't see anything at all. So, even if they had, maybe because of the smoke, we couldn't
02:32:01 maybe because of the smoke, we couldn't see. Not sure. Yeah. Um, when you got into the stairwell, was there any difference in the conditions in the stairwell from the communal area?
02:32:12 in the stairwell from the communal area? No, it was very thick smoke the hallway until the third or second floor where I started to breathe again.
02:32:23 started to breathe again. And was it only when you got to those lower floors that there was any light? I think I started to see lights. Yeah. on either third or second floor and I
02:32:34 on either third or second floor and I started to have fresh air or maybe some air. Yeah. And do you remember whether there was any difference in the temperature of the communal area and the temperature of the
02:32:45 communal area and the temperature of the stairwell? It was very hot in the stair and even in the communal area it was the same exactly.
02:32:54 exactly. And when you say very hot, what do you mean by very hot? Um, I could feel the the heat of the smoke on my face, throats,
02:33:04 throats, on my skin, everywhere. Yeah.
02:33:10 Um,
02:33:13 you describe and it's in the next in paragraph 35. Um, you got down the stairwells and you you got to the main entrance. Um, when were you first aware that that your brother was not behind
02:33:25 that that your brother was not behind you? When was that? When I arrived uh to the ground floor and here I looked behind me because at the beginning I thought he's behind me
02:33:37 the beginning I thought he's behind me and he's being pulled out same as me. So I was running and walking the stairs and when I arrived I checked behind me I didn't see him. So here where I thought
02:33:49 didn't see him. So here where I thought maybe he still in the flats. Yeah. I I I just want now to um show you um some CCTV stills. Um
02:34:03 Mr. Shem, what I'll do is they are stills taken just just by the main entrance and they show firefighters and they show people um leaving the tower and and those are images that may be distressing to some that are here. So,
02:34:15 distressing to some that are here. So, I'll just pause briefly if anyone wants to leave.
02:34:18 to leave. Um but I think um no one has indicated such.
02:34:23 such. What I'm going to do is as as I take you through these stills, Mr. Al alhajali, I'm I'm going to give what's called the adjusted time, which is the best estimate that we can give uh with the
02:34:35 estimate that we can give uh with the assistance of our experts for the real time on the camera. All right. So, can we have first of all in Q446, please?
02:34:46 please? The adjusted time for this still is um 024408.
02:34:52 Just for the record, Mr. Al, can you confirm that that's you there? Yes.
02:34:59 Yes. And we see that that you've got a an open shirt. What color is that shirt? Uh, navy, I think. Navy. The jacket, you mean?
02:35:09 mean? A jacket. Sorry. Yeah, it's a tracksuit jacket. A tracksuit jacket, you say? Yeah.
02:35:16 Yeah. Aside from being navy, did it have any markings on it? I think red lines. um but don't remember any marks
02:35:27 any marks just so that you you can um see the the context in which questions I'm going to ask you going to come can we have I inq 447 please
02:35:39 again um the adjusted time for this is 0244 and 11 seconds um we can see that there's a figure wearing
02:35:51 we can see that there's a figure wearing wearing what looks like uh black tracksuit bottoms and gray shoes and then an a and an navy blue jacket. Is that you there? Yes.
02:36:02 Yes. If we go now to INQ 449.
02:36:11 Um adjusted time for this is 0244 and 32 seconds. Could we expand the the top half of that image if that's possible? is that someone wearing a white helmet
02:36:22 is that someone wearing a white helmet with and a jacket with fire written on it.
02:36:27 Um we can see there on the expanded image there are uh two firefighters, one without a helmet and one with a white helmet. Um and facing almost towards the
02:36:38 helmet. Um and facing almost towards the camera is um a man with with a beard. Can you confirm is that you? Yes.
02:36:45 Yes. And can you tell us what was happening in this? I remembered asking them where is my brother and telling them maybe he's still in the flat and
02:36:57 he's still in the flat and I'm sure that he's still in flat because he's not with me and I was pointed as well where I came from and I didn't see my brother.
02:37:09 from and I didn't see my brother. Yeah. And I've Yeah. So they were just listening to me and
02:37:16 and and I remembered uh someone asked me where you came from. I said 113 and he wrote that on my hand before I left the tower. Yeah.
02:37:28 left the tower. Yeah. Um you say someone asked you there there's um can you help whether it was one of the two firefighters that we see in No, I don't remember.
02:37:39 No, I don't remember. Um, I think it we can see that that you appear to have your hand raised in this image. Um, can you tell us what you were doing at that? Does that help? I think I was telling them my brother's
02:37:51 I think I was telling them my brother's still upstairs.
02:37:54 And you told um, this is taken in the main entrance. Was it in the Was it there where you were asked what flat you'd come and somebody wrote it on your hand?
02:38:05 hand? Yes.
02:38:06 Yes. And when you were talking to firefighters by the main entrance, did you um tell them which flat your brother was in?
02:38:14 was in? Yes.
02:38:15 Yes. Do you know what they did with that information? Did you see what they did with that information? Nothing. Someone said maybe he's panicked.
02:38:24 panicked. And when you say someone said maybe he's panicked, who's the he that a firefighter next to the one who wrote 113 on my hand? And who was the person
02:38:36 113 on my hand? And who was the person that firefighter was saying was panicked?
02:38:38 panicked? I don't know who is he, but I heard a man for a man voice. Yeah. And you heard a man's voice saying maybe he's panicked. Yes.
02:38:47 Yes. Let's go to the next image. IQ450, please.
02:38:54 Again, if we could expand the top part as much as possible. That's
02:39:05 The adjusted time for the record for this image is um 02 44 and 43 seconds. Um
02:39:14 we can see that um well there are three firefighters in the image. Um one with a white helmet, one without a helmet, and then uh the third who's on the left of
02:39:26 then uh the third who's on the left of the image as we look at it. um with with a a torch on on his jacket behind the firefighter uh with the white helmet. We can see the top half of someone's head.
02:39:38 can see the top half of someone's head. Can you confirm whether that's you or not?
02:39:40 not? Yes, that's me. And again, that person has um an arm raised. Uh does that help you to tell us what was going on at that time? Uh I was um um I think I was telling
02:39:51 Uh I was um um I think I was telling them about my brother most of the time and as well telling them where I came from.
02:39:59 Did you mention um anybody else who'd been in flat 113 to these firefighters? Yes, I did mention children as well. I
02:40:11 Yes, I did mention children as well. I did say a child, an old man, and my brother. I I don't remember saying Zanab too because I wasn't sure where
02:40:22 Zanab too because I wasn't sure where she was, but I remembered saying children. So maybe that they can do something because I knew that a child was in the flat.
02:40:33 was in the flat. Uh do you remember telling them how many people had been in the flat before the before you left it? I don't remember saying how many, but I
02:40:46 I don't remember saying how many, but I was trying to to tell them who is in the flats. Um can we just go now just to the last image in sequence and and it's INQ458.
02:41:01 Um again if we could expand the top part of of the image 458 IQ458 please.
02:41:14 Um,
02:41:17 can you see that um just in the doorway there's a firefighter with a helmet? Are you able to tell ahead of that firefighter is it looks like there's a there's a man there. Are you able to say
02:41:29 there's a man there. Are you able to say from that image whether that's you or not?
02:41:31 not? Yeah, it's me. And um
02:41:36 And um that seems to be you now leaving the um the tower. Um and for the record, the adjusted time is 0245 and 15 seconds. Um can I ask you just to
02:41:50 and 15 seconds. Um can I ask you just to we'll go back to your um witness statement please and it's the first witness statement I IWS781 at page 13
02:42:02 and um if we expand paragraph 36 Please
02:42:19 you explained there that you made a telephone call with your brother Muhammad who told you that he was still in flat 113. Can you remember where you were when you
02:42:31 Can you remember where you were when you first called him? Just next to the tower. Not really far. Not next to the if they pushed me a bit far from the front uh the main entrance but not that
02:42:44 front uh the main entrance but not that far from the tower very close
02:42:51 and I was walking towards the play children playground area. Um,
02:43:03 what you say in this paragraph was whilst I was still on the phone to Muhammad, I walked over to a fireman inside the tower and told them that my brother was still in the flat and could not get out. I was saying, "Please go
02:43:14 not get out. I was saying, "Please go upstairs, please. There are children upstairs. Person that I was talking to had a mask on." So, just again, so we can be clear of the sequence, um, you get out of the tower as we've seen in the CCTV stills. You phone your brother
02:43:27 the CCTV stills. You phone your brother and then do you then go back towards the tower?
02:43:30 tower? Yes, I came back to the main entrance of the tower. And was that where you had this conversation with a firefighter? Yes.
02:43:39 Yes. What you also say some firefighters were saying that they were sure they took everyone out. Um
02:43:47 Um when did you hear that? I heard someone was saying that but not for me for the other firefighters. He was saying, "We took everyone out." And then I start to
02:43:59 took everyone out." And then I start to say, "No, my brother's still in the flat and he's in the phone with me and there's other people with him as well." Did you give the firefighters any information about who else was with your
02:44:10 information about who else was with your brother?
02:44:11 brother? Yes. I was saying an old man, a child, a woman, and my brother because Muhammad told me that time about who else with him in the flat. Now, the
02:44:24 who else with him in the flat. Now, the the firefighters were saying they were sure that they took everyone out. Where were they? They were just close to the tower. Out of the tower. Yeah.
02:44:35 of the tower. Yeah. So, were they outside outside the tower, but close to the main entrance? Yeah. Close, but not very very close. Yeah.
02:44:46 Was there anything about them that that allowed you to say whether or not they had been the firefighters that had um taken people out of flat 113? Say it again. Sorry, I I'll put that in a different
02:44:59 Sorry, I I'll put that in a different way. Um you you say that some firefighters were saying they were sure that they took everyone out. Uh could you tell if if the firefighters who were saying that had actually been
02:45:10 who were saying that had actually been involved in taking people out of flat 113? I didn't know because I couldn't see who brought me out and I couldn't see faces. So, I didn't know if it's the same people or not.
02:45:23 same people or not. Um,
02:45:26 Um, can I take you to page 15 of your statement, please? And we'll look at um paragraph
02:45:34 paragraph 42.
02:45:42 Um, just again to to to set it in context, you've described in this part of your statement that a friend Farah came over and helped you to calm down. You say, "I was too upset to be calmed down. I was
02:45:55 was too upset to be calmed down. I was coughing a lot and the parrot medic came over and gave me an oxygen mask." Was that the first time you'd been given an oxygen mask? Yes, it was next to um Latima Road
02:46:06 Yes, it was next to um Latima Road Station. that area next under the tree. Um cuz that wasn't the first place I went to. The first place I went to, it
02:46:17 went to. The first place I went to, it was next to the playground area and the second time they told us to go to that place not far from the station. Let's go to your second statement,
02:46:28 Let's go to your second statement, please. And can we look at IWS 401052 and page two?
02:46:40 In this second statement, um you deal with a second part of um firefighter Herrera's uh written statement and and it's also something that he has given
02:46:51 it's also something that he has given evidence about um to the chairman. Um what he says uh is that he came across you by the playground area. Uh, you were
02:47:02 you by the playground area. Uh, you were on your phone and you said, "My brother's still in there. I'm still on the phone to him. He's on his knees praying." And you also said, "I was mistaken." And taking that in stages, uh, where
02:47:15 And taking that in stages, uh, where were you when you first received oxygen? I was next to the station, Latima station, a space there. I'm not sure what's called, but
02:47:26 there. I'm not sure what's called, but under the tree. Yeah. Did you receive oxygen in the playground area? No, just water. Do you remember having uh any
02:47:39 Do you remember having uh any conversation uh with a firefighter where you said my brother is still in there? I'm still on the phone to him. He's on his knees praying.
02:47:49 praying. That didn't happen. No. I just spoke to firefighter and I was saying that I am on the phone with my brother. But I didn't say I was mistaken and I didn't say he was praying.
02:48:01 say he was praying. Um, so just so we can clear, it's your evidence that you didn't say I was mistaken.
02:48:07 mistaken. No, I didn't say that. Um, did any firefighter introduce himself or herself to you? No.
02:48:14 No. As someone who'd been inside flat 113? No.
02:48:19 No. Did this conversation happen? No.
02:48:27 Um, you've told us about the effect that coming through the communal area and down the stairwell um, had on you physically. You've said
02:48:38 um, had on you physically. You've said that you were upset and Farah had to calm you down. Is it at all possible that you could be mistaken when you say that this conversation didn't happen?
02:48:49 conversation didn't happen? No, I'm sure it didn't happen because I was on the phone with my brother and he cannot pray at the same time and talking to me at the same time. And what I
02:49:01 to me at the same time. And what I remembered, we were reading just Quran but not praying in the flat. Yeah. So when you were in the flat, you you you read Quran together?
02:49:13 you read Quran together? Yeah. Um, when you were on the phone with your brother, did he did he read the Quran at all to you? No.
02:49:19 No. Uh, did he um say anything about the Quran to you? No, he was just saying me, I didn't see anyone. Where where everyone where did you go? How did you go?
02:49:30 you go? How did you go? Yeah.
02:49:31 Yeah. And did your brother tell you when you you made more than one phone call with your brother, didn't you? Yes. Many calls. Yeah. Did he tell you where he and those who'd been who'd
02:49:42 where he and those who'd been who'd remained in the flat were in the flat? They were next to him, but he didn't tell me where he was, if it was bedroom or living room, but he told me that he
02:49:53 or living room, but he told me that he could see everyone next to him. Zanab, her son, and Deness. Did he tell you anything about the conditions in the flat? Yes.
02:50:03 Did he tell you whether anything about the smoke in the flat? Yeah. Uh he told me uh it was uh the smoke was coming inside and uh
02:50:16 smoke was coming inside and uh and I can see that uh others stopped breathing.
02:50:24 Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions. Um but may I ask for a short break so that I can check if there are any supplementaries. Well, those are all the questions that Mr. Robert thinks he's got at the moment, but we normally have a short
02:50:36 moment, but we normally have a short break. Okay. So that he can check his notes and consider the matter. So we'll we'll stop now until uh 1:00. Okay. And then I'm going to ask you to come back at 1:00 and we'll see if there are
02:50:47 back at 1:00 and we'll see if there are any more questions at that stage. All right.
02:50:51 right. Okay.
02:50:51 Okay. So would you like to go with the usher, please?
02:50:53 please? I thank you. She will look after you.
02:51:07 Right. 1:00 then please
02:58:56 Sorry.
02:59:18 All right. Happy to face a few more questions, I suspect. Yes, Mr. Rabbi. Yes, sir.
02:59:23 Yes, sir. A few. Yes. Good. Very briefly, um, can I, um, just return, Mr. Hajj Ali to the calls that you had with your brother. Um when you were on the
02:59:36 brother. Um when you were on the telephone
02:59:38 telephone um to Muhammad, did he tell you whether he had seen any firefighters? He told me I didn't see any firefighters.
02:59:49 Did he tell you where he was? Where he'd been when you left the flat? No, but he told me I was I am with the others Zab her son and Dennis, but not
03:00:04 others Zab her son and Dennis, but not he didn't tell me if it was bedrooms or living rooms.
03:00:11 Uh could I please have um up um and again if I if I just um perhaps give the usual warning that I'm about to show you a photograph which is of um essentially
03:00:24 a photograph which is of um essentially um your flat door and and the flat door of uh flat 111 um which was taken before the fire um but if that is an image that may distress anybody um then um they
03:00:37 may distress anybody um then um they should take an opportunity to leave now but I don't think anybody is Mr. Um but so can I have please IWS 401001
03:00:47 401001 and then page 005 please.
03:00:55 Um Mr. Al Hi, a little earlier I asked you questions um you showing you a a photograph of um the lobby area on floor six and you told us about how you would
03:01:08 six and you told us about how you would go from the lifts to your own flat and we can see your flat door here 112 with the letter box above it you can see um pipes
03:01:20 pipes um which are at ceiling level and um c can you tell us what those what you understood those pipes were for. It was a gas pipes.
03:01:31 It was a gas pipes. And I think in in your statement you you you say that that you didn't have a gas supply to your flat, did you? Yes.
03:01:38 Yes. It wasn't working at the time. No, we had leaking. But we can see um and and please confirm. Did the pipes go into Yes.
03:01:48 Yes. um your flat? Yes, it went into my flat on the top of our door the whole way to the corridor until the kitchen area.
03:02:01 the corridor until the kitchen area. Was there anything about the work that was done in putting those flats those pipes through into your flat that caused you concern? Yes, it was shown. It were we could see inside the flat and then just the owner
03:02:15 inside the flat and then just the owner of the flat requested for that to be covered because it's very dangerous. It seems very dangerous showing and they said we cannot do any works inside the
03:02:27 said we cannot do any works inside the walls because it will cause lots of damage. So we have to do it uncovered and showing. So your concern was that the pipes were
03:02:39 So your concern was that the pipes were visible? Yes, they are visible. Um, can I turn then to the final matter that I want to put to you? Um, and I want to begin by thanking you uh for
03:02:51 want to begin by thanking you uh for coming to give evidence and also thanking you for the uh witness statements that you've made. Um, putting aside the witness statements and and the answers that you've given to my
03:03:03 answers that you've given to my questions today, is there anything else about what you saw or heard on the night of the fire that you think it important to tell the chairman? Um, I just would like to say that I
03:03:16 Um, I just would like to say that I respect um the firefighters, some of them who tried to rescue the people and tried their best. But actually I don't understand why for example some of
03:03:29 don't understand why for example some of the firefighters like Peter Harara putting words into my mouth which I didn't say by saying I said no one else in the flats. I didn't search the flat. I didn't check
03:03:42 I didn't search the flat. I didn't check if Muhammad left or not. So why should I say that? And he's my brother. So, it's very hard to hear someone blaming you for the death of your best friends and
03:03:53 for the death of your best friends and neighbors. And you're he's my brother. How can I say that about him? He's just trying to blame me for not searching the flat by himself. And I'm sure that he
03:04:06 flat by himself. And I'm sure that he didn't search the flat. And if he did, he would see everyone else. And I'm sure he didn't go inside any bedrooms or living room cuz he would see everyone else. If my brother was praying, the
03:04:19 else. If my brother was praying, the rest they weren't. So he could see anyone else. And I just want to say that the death of everyone and my brother really changed
03:04:30 everyone and my brother really changed my life completely. Just thank you once again for coming to give evidence today. It's been very helpful. Thank you, Mr. Ali. I'd like to add my
03:04:42 Thank you, Mr. Ali. I'd like to add my thanks to those of Mr. Robert. You obviously had a terrible experience and made all the worse by the death of your brother. And I'm very sorry for his death and it'll take you a long time,
03:04:53 death and it'll take you a long time, I'm sure, to come to terms with it. I'm sorry we've had to ask you to go over it all again here in public, but it's very important that we have your evidence about what was happening in the building
03:05:05 about what was happening in the building on the night in question. And so we're very grateful to you and thank you very much for coming to tell us what you can. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. You're now free to go. If you'd like to go with the usher, she will look
03:05:16 like to go with the usher, she will look after you.
03:05:25 Mr. Chairman, our next witness is scheduled for 2:00. Yes. Oh, well, I think we could say 10 2, couldn't we? Because
03:05:36 Because I I won't object to that. Well, it's just that there are a lot of people who have to get some refreshment over the lunch hour and we start cutting into the lunch hour. It makes life difficult for them. So, I'm sure our witness will
03:05:47 them. So, I'm sure our witness will understand particularly if we apologize to him when we started. That will be done. Turn past two, please.