Bereaved, survivors and residents (BSRs) give evidence about their experiences on the night of the Grenfell Tower fire, including accounts of smoke in lobbies and stairwells, ventilation noises, window defects, and the "stay put" advice they received days before the fire.
00:00:01 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing now we're going to continue hearing evidence from those who were in the tower at the time of the fire yes mr. chairman good morning yes
00:00:12 mr. chairman good morning yes so our next witness is mr. Petro deliver may I please call mr. lava thank you
00:00:35 I do Seong Li sincerely and truly I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm
00:00:43 affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but you and thank you very
00:00:56 and nothing but you and thank you very much indeed you do sit down make yourself captain
00:01:05 good morning and can I start please by asking you asking you to give the inquiry your full name my name is Spector
00:01:13 Spector dawlah well okay and forgive me is it do lover or duel over don't deliver can I begin by thanking you very much miss Doane over for coming here today and
00:01:26 Doane over for coming here today and giving us your evidence and assisting the chairman in our work your contribution is of course very much appreciated if at any time you need a break then all you need to do is say so
00:01:37 break then all you need to do is say so we appreciate that going through the events of the night is often quite difficult so we're very happy to take a break at any time you want to well we'll probably not sit for more than 45
00:01:48 probably not sit for more than 45 minutes at a time in order to have proper breaks if at any time there's a question I asked you which you don't understand or you want me to repeat I'm very happy to repeat the question or put
00:01:59 very happy to repeat the question or put it in a different way and if I'm not looking at you and I'm when you're answering my questions it's because I'm looking at the screen to follow what you're saying on the on the record okay
00:02:10 you're saying on the on the record okay um can I ask you then please first to be shown your witness statement iws 8 3 5
00:02:24 and it's there on the screen on the desk in front of you or we can look at it on the screen at the back of the hall and this is the first page of the statement that you've made for the inquiry can we
00:02:35 that you've made for the inquiry can we please go to the last page of that statement which is page 14 we can see that it carries a sick days a date at the 29th of June 2018 and a signature is
00:02:47 the 29th of June 2018 and a signature is that your signature it is my signature have you had an opportunity to read this statement recently yes you have and are the contents of this statement true thank you you've also provided to the
00:03:00 thank you you've also provided to the inquiry some exhibits that you've got to your statement P d1 and PD - and those are iws Quinn tuple 0 8 3 2 and a 3 3 8
00:03:12 are iws Quinn tuple 0 8 3 2 and a 3 3 8 3 2 is a plan of your flat sorry a plan of floor 20 and 8 3 3 is a plan of your flat if we can just have first of all the plan of floor 20 up it is that your
00:03:25 the plan of floor 20 up it is that your first exhibit yes and secondly 833 the plan of your flat is that the plan of your flat yes it is thank you can I start them just by asking you some
00:03:36 can I start them just by asking you some some background questions I think you moved into Granville Tower is this right in 1998 that's right so at the time of the fire you'd live there for something like 19 years yes and your husband I
00:03:50 like 19 years yes and your husband I think had a secure tenancy yes yes can you remember who his tenancy was with he initially had a tenancy of both the front
00:04:00 front Mario Lama who will have some lifts in there for many years since basically I'll move in there she was no longer living in the flat I think she moved back to her country in Finland and at
00:04:14 back to her country in Finland and at the time of the fire do you know who your husband had a tenancy with I think the tenancy terms have been changed right you don't know who the Tennessee was with I think it was the same that
00:04:25 was with I think it was the same that the initial tenancy here right do you know whether you made any modifications to your flat we made numerous modifications
00:04:37 modifications put enough laws we changed the kitchen usual decorations paintings can I ask you to look at page three of your
00:04:49 you to look at page three of your statement and on page 3 paragraph 18 you say there that everyone on the 20th
00:05:02 say there that everyone on the 20th floor except for us had their front door changed and found them difficult to open and close and then you go on to sell there was a choice of three new front
00:05:14 there was a choice of three new front doors they were all made of PVC or a Dominion and some had frosted glass panel however my husband told the TMA we wanted to keep our original front door first of all the reference to the TM oh
00:05:26 first of all the reference to the TM oh there is that a reference to the person with whom your husband had the tenancy it was the organization that was employed or organized to manage the
00:05:40 employed or organized to manage the block and the flats right I don't know if the tenancy initially was with TM or probably not because it's been a long tenancy so yeah TMO was basically involved in monitoring and
00:05:51 basically involved in monitoring and running you and was tasked with all the refurbishment and anything to do with changes sort of on behalf of the case yes and now my first question looking at
00:06:04 yes and now my first question looking at this paragraph is did the TMO offer you or your husband the choice of keeping the old front door as I recall there was no choice I think the way it was
00:06:16 no choice I think the way it was supported was that these doors need to be changed I think we didn't like the new doors
00:06:22 new doors we didn't like the quality we didn't like that it was made of what to me and to us look a cheap plastic material we we we thought that our original door was very secure very hard wood and all and
00:06:36 very secure very hard wood and all and we just didn't feel comfortable with the changes of it and I decided not to not have the doors change and I believe it caused some some problems and some
00:06:48 quite a upsetting behavior from the TMO and the council threatened and all sorts of legal actions if he didn't comply I think in the end my husband was the one
00:06:59 think in the end my husband was the one dealing with it and I think he might have gotten local MP involved and in the end we kept the origin dog do you remember roughly when this was I don't recall exactly it was definitely
00:07:13 I don't recall exactly it was definitely a couple of fears before the refurbishment right I think you say that everyone on the 20th floor had their
00:07:24 everyone on the 20th floor had their front door changed and found them difficult to open and close how did you know that your neighbors on the 20th floor and found those doors difficult to open and close I think it's generally
00:07:36 open and close I think it's generally from seeing people neighbors in the left you discuss these things and I do remember the most people that I talked to didn't like the doors from the difficulty of the keeping them closer close in them and also the the dos with
00:07:50 close in them and also the the dos with the the glass panels caused some problem for some people at an enlightened didn't feel secure and private enough so generally from conversation and discussions from the people he met right and at paragraph ninety nineteen on the
00:08:03 and at paragraph ninety nineteen on the next page by the bottom of the page first first of all you say our front door was wooden and heavy I believe it was a proper solid fire door it did not
00:08:15 was a proper solid fire door it did not shut automatically was that the case at the time of the fire that it didn't shut automatically it's the way the door is designed there is a there's a knob and there is a letterbox with a flop so
00:08:28 there is a letterbox with a flop so either you have to be clever forceful closing it shutting of which causes lots of noise I use your key to shut it gently
00:08:34 gently yes so on the night of the fire it was my husband dad was leaving after me and he was a bit delayed trying to close the door and there was a look and I think the look was kind of open so he had
00:08:47 the look was kind of open so he had difficulty so he realized he has to you know open the lock and then close the door yes so you had to manually close the door it has to manually close the door so if you opened your front door to it
00:08:57 it fullest extent into the flat what would happen to the door if you just left it I think it would probably close but I don't think it would shut I see maybe if there was a draught I believe and
00:09:08 there was a draught I believe and windows are open the trough could cause it to slump shut but I think if you just leave it open it my close but it might not
00:09:17 not after the your neighbors on the 20th floor had had changed their their front doors
00:09:25 doors do you remember yourself whether those front doors shut automatically or not I don't
00:09:42 you then say that the end of paragraph 19 there were no obvious gaps between the door and the door frame there were brushes at the bottom of the door where those brushes always there or
00:09:53 door where those brushes always there or were they installed at a later time I remember that valve is done I don't know whether they were part of the door whether they have been put there by my husband two years ago okay can I ask you them to look at page for a
00:10:06 can I ask you them to look at page for a little bit lower down that page at paragraph 26 you say there that there was a dry riser this is under the
00:10:17 was a dry riser this is under the heading the paragraph will to up communal area there was a dry riser and air vents on the communal landing on the 20th floor but I do not remember where the dry riser was located the air vents
00:10:29 the dry riser was located the air vents used to make a lot of noise after the refurbishment I just want to focus on on what you say about about the air vents first of all I want to show you a photograph taken by the inquiry
00:10:43 you a photograph taken by the inquiry through one of its experts of the interior of the fire after that after the fire it doesn't show anything it doesn't show the building on fire or anything like that but you all right to
00:10:54 anything like that but you all right to look at a photograph I just ought to pause just for a moment because there are may be people watching or in this room hearing you might find these photographs distressing so mr. chairman if we can pause them for seconds just to
00:11:06 if we can pause them for seconds just to allow them to look away or leave
00:11:12 and just if we can just ready the picture it's BL a quadruple zero two five one three and all say two five one four if we can have both of those on the
00:11:24 four if we can have both of those on the screen at the same time that's two four one two three but these or this photograph perhaps if we can have the
00:11:37 photograph perhaps if we can have the other one at the same time two five one four take a moment it's deliver to look at these photographs these were taken on the sixth floor of the tower but can I
00:11:50 the sixth floor of the tower but can I just ask you to look at the right-hand photograph you'll see towards the ground on that floor against the far wall or on the far wall two vents on your floor
00:12:05 the far wall two vents on your floor floor 20 did you have those do you remember on that right side I don't
00:12:19 remember on that right side I don't remember these basement I remember the ones on the left side you remember those on the left side okay so then when you
00:12:30 on the left side okay so then when you say the left side the left hand phone left hand photograph yes so you recall the what is this right that on the 20th floor there were two vent Inlet or outlet stored the ceiling yes and were they in the same orientation as the lift
00:12:42 they in the same orientation as the lift in other words as you're looking at the lifts to the right yes right okay but you don't remember those towards the ground I look to the left of the lifts as you look at the lift I am not a
00:12:56 as you look at the lift I am not a hundred percent sure all right now you say in paragraph 26 just looking back at that paragraph the air vents used to make a lot of noise after the
00:13:07 make a lot of noise after the refurbishment are you clear in your own mind that the air vents only started making noise after the river after the refurbishment yes clearly I don't really remember even giving it a thought before
00:13:19 remember even giving it a thought before and following the refurbishment it was quite a regular occurrence I remember we discussing it was quite unusual sound quite humming haunting really quite difficult to
00:13:32 haunting really quite difficult to comprehend it emphasises something was sucking up a lot of air at the same time and yeah so definitely was happening quite a lot I'm interested in what you just said about the kind of noise your
00:13:44 just said about the kind of noise your description of the noise could you compare it with anything in your normal life like a kitchen implement or something like that how would it how'd it sound it's
00:13:55 how would it how'd it sound it's difficult to really describe it really was a hum in low kind of like a vent a fun that's going on really really fast right would it be when he was say
00:14:10 right would it be when he was say standing in the middle of the lobby louder than a vacuum cleaner if a vacuum cleaner was placed in the same it wasn't loud as that it was more kind of thumb it wasn't as loud as a vacuum cleaner
00:14:22 it wasn't as loud as a vacuum cleaner but it was a very kind of it was it kind of dull sound right it wasn't very you know high-pitched it was a very dull but it was very consistent very loud you could actually really feel it it wasn't
00:14:34 could actually really feel it it wasn't it felt something was wrong with the building really could you feel it as well as hear it I don't think so I don't remember it was the sound really that you know caught your attention okay you
00:14:47 you know caught your attention okay you said it was low and there are technical reasons to me asking these a rather strange questions but you said it was a low sound does that mean low in the register in the musical register or more high-pitched right could you hear the
00:15:00 high-pitched right could you hear the vents when you were inside your flat when they were making the noise user ID I don't think so and how often did they
00:15:13 I don't think so and how often did they make the noise that you described again I think it's hard for me to remember exactly but it for me to register and remember and I never discussed it it
00:15:25 remember and I never discussed it it definitely was regular and I think particularly shortly after the whole refurbishment has been completed it kind of registered as well
00:15:36 of registered as well and so I can't really say how often but it did happen because we did discuss it and I think also with the with the neighbors again maybe when we met and
00:15:48 neighbors again maybe when we met and discuss how we reacted to the refurbishment and the various complaints I was one of the issues mentioned by my neighbors as well did you do you ever notice anything triggering it like
00:16:02 notice anything triggering it like changes in temperature or weather conditions or any particular did it happen did you hear this noise at particular times of the day I think for
00:16:13 particular times of the day I think for me I would have either noticed it in a morning on a way to work so that would have been seven seven thirty morning or it would be in the evening coming back so again 7:00 7:30 in the evening right
00:16:24 so again 7:00 7:30 in the evening right but were those the occasions on which you were most often in these in the lobbies yes so you don't actually know whether it was happening at lunchtime or exactly yes and when they did make this
00:16:37 exactly yes and when they did make this noise did you notice a change in the temperature in the lobbies I don't really remember okay did you notice any feeling of airflow in the lobbies when
00:16:48 feeling of airflow in the lobbies when you heard that noise I can't really say I don't know did you ever go or not you know it's just really the sounded that's
00:17:01 know it's just really the sounded that's stayed with me mm-hm did you ever speak to anybody at the TMO about the noise you've heard I discussed it at home with my husband and I'm sure that he had
00:17:13 my husband and I'm sure that he had others there were other things of complaints that we had whether he raised the issue with the vents I not sure right
00:17:23 right
00:17:23 and do you remember what the last occasion was before the night of the fire when you heard those vents remember
00:17:35 fire when you heard those vents remember did you hear them do you think on the night of the fire when you returned home I can't say I've really done on you if I
00:17:49 I can't say I've really done on you if I can ask you to turn to page six you say at paragraphs 39 and 40 that when the
00:18:02 at paragraphs 39 and 40 that when the new windows were installed it reduced the light coming into the flat by at least 30% it was the most depressing thing we had been used to lots of lights streaming into the flat in the most beautiful view just a timing question
00:18:13 beautiful view just a timing question when you say that when the window new windows were installed was that at the time of the refurbishment it was yes and then you say in paragraph 40 our new
00:18:24 then you say in paragraph 40 our new bedroom window had a gap on one side between the frame and the wall we complain to the TMO and the response was along the lines that no one will see it there we saw the gap every day now I
00:18:35 there we saw the gap every day now I just want to focus on on that can I first ask you to look at the plan of your flat that you've prepared which is iws 833 page 2 it's your second exhibit
00:18:49 iws 833 page 2 it's your second exhibit pd2 okay can I ask you by reference to that flat that you indicate which window you were referring to in this paragraph of your statement it's the window in the
00:19:01 of your statement it's the window in the room a which was our bedroom and which side of the window was the gap that
00:19:12 side of the window was the gap that you're talking about it was on a left side as you face in the window on the left side as you're facing the window okay
00:19:19 okay I mean it wasn't a physical gap between you know between the outside and us it was more the way the windows were installed and the standard of work and
00:19:31 installed and the standard of work and attitude that we had when we raised compliance was kind of making a point of you know it was your home and it was kind of for me destroyed in a way and it was just a
00:19:44 me destroyed in a way and it was just a general comment on how the council and the contractors and people dealing with us were kind of completely disregarding our comments and I would point out
00:19:57 our comments and I would point out talking about the windows that they were very drafty I mean I slept we had the better pearl to that world with the window and I slept close to the wall and our flood was never cold and suddenly
00:20:12 our flood was never cold and suddenly going through the draught the wall was cold in a winter it was really really cold draft I could feel the draft sleep in that and devil's new experience for me
00:20:22 me so something obviously wasn't quite right with the designer right well I just want to unpack that because you've given us a lot of information in answering that questions no need to go back over that a little bit first of all
00:20:33 back over that a little bit first of all before I do can you just describe where your bed was in room a okay so it was by the window parallel to the wall with the window by the bit so where the headboard
00:20:46 window by the bit so where the headboard of the bed would be facing north facing loss okay I say and you would sleep on the west side would you towards the wind that's correct yes now I just want to get back to this
00:20:58 yes now I just want to get back to this gap you say it wasn't a physical gap between the outside and us I just want to understand what this gap looked like and you look at the window of your
00:21:09 and you look at the window of your bedroom you're looking at the left-hand side of the window what could you see if you were looking for the gap you couldn't see it from face in front for me it was just probably detailed but it was the frame from the sight and you
00:21:21 was the frame from the sight and you could see when you kind of lean to the side and the frame was the gap between the wall and the frame was basically widening as it was going down so that was what really I didn't like the gap
00:21:33 was what really I didn't like the gap between the wall and the frame which wasn't you know you could see that the widening okay at the top of the window you said widened as it went down toward is this right towards the sill yes the
00:21:45 is this right towards the sill yes the window at the top how wide would you say the gap was I think at a table us if snugly fit right and as it went to the window so it could have been a monsoon to me two centimeter and a half
00:21:56 monsoon to me two centimeter and a half okay could you see at that bottom part where you say it's a centimeter centimeter what could you see in could you see inside the gap yes could you see
00:22:08 you see inside the gap yes could you see anything in their mind it was still part of the window frame there was no like I said physical gap or it was just the point of how I don't think that the
00:22:20 point of how I don't think that the windows were fit properly and correctly in that gap did you ever feel air coming through I cannot say whether it was due to the gap it was generally that the
00:22:32 to the gap it was generally that the windows felt very drafty okay and that that gap that you've described very clearly for us just now on that window on that side was that was that
00:22:43 window on that side was that was that kind of gap anywhere else in your flavor no okay now after you you say you complain to the TMO about it was it ever
00:22:55 complain to the TMO about it was it ever repaired no it wasn't and actually I think my husband we always had to sign on off work and he didn't actually sign on that because I think we had a issue
00:23:06 on that because I think we had a issue as well with some of the window panes and and generally as I said that the the fixtures of the windows and the whole process and also the windows were in various I remember the occasions when we
00:23:18 various I remember the occasions when we were washing them actually came off the hinges which very dangerous and it happened to my husband and I witnessed it so he had to put it back in which obviously could have ended up you know
00:23:30 obviously could have ended up you know falling out of the 20th floor falling up on us could hurt anybody could hurt us and I happened twice I recalled since we had the new windows twice yes as soon after the refurbishment of the window come away a couple of months
00:23:42 come away a couple of months and did you can did you take that up or did your husband take that up with a teammate I think you would probably mention dad yes well I cannot say under the Sun because he usually he was
00:23:53 the Sun because he usually he was dealing over the side of you know dealing with the team or on the council yes I'm gonna ask you in a moment about the
00:24:02 the finding off that you've just referred to but before I do can I can I ask you to look at paragraph 47 of your statement on page 7 you say there in the third
00:24:16 on page 7 you say there in the third line if there was a constant draft through our windows in the flat at night the bedroom walls felt cold to the touch and the walls under all of the windows
00:24:29 and the walls under all of the windows which windows in your flat did you feel a constant draft coming through for me personally it would be the bedroom because I was so close to it at night
00:24:40 because I was so close to it at night yes the others I don't really I can't say but I think importantly as well is that the obviously we talking about the
00:24:54 that the obviously we talking about the windows so I mentioned that the rooms were hot and cold because of the heating system which we probably get to so that's probably what more I would notice rather than the other windows he also kept our windows open we like to keep
00:25:07 kept our windows open we like to keep fresh air even during a winter heating them open during the day and just probably close them at night and always kept at least one window open so regarding the other windows I can't
00:25:18 regarding the other windows I can't really say whether they're that drafty okay but for me the issue was the bedroom the bedroom I'm just going back to this bedroom window draft and do you remember can you tell us where in the
00:25:31 remember can you tell us where in the window or around the window you've felt the draft coming from again that's difficult to pinpoint I would say I felt it more of the general coldness of the
00:25:43 it more of the general coldness of the wall surrounding the the window and the window sill was always really really cold on a touch as well so for me it was the general feel of of the cold
00:25:54 the general feel of of the cold permeating through the walls really that's what it felt that and it was a draft it wasn't just the call it really felt draft it in a way which I had never experienced before which it shouldn't happen when you have just one room
00:26:05 happen when you have just one room without a friend windows open you shouldn't feel that kind of cold coming through I think yes it's just it's just that in paragraph 47 you say there was a constant draft through our windows in the flat
00:26:15 the flat yes we've narrowed that down to the bedroom and I just wanted to understand what the constant where this constant draught you could feel was coming from it's just the feeling of our heart of
00:26:27 it's just the feeling of our heart of the draft I I don't know exactly which part of the window was coming from it it was a feeling of a draft if you put your but do you remember ever putting your hand around the window to work out where
00:26:40 hand around the window to work out where it was coming we did it was mainly I felt it mainly on there below the window sill on the wall below the window right and just exploring that a bit say we've got the window sill comes out and then
00:26:53 got the window sill comes out and then returns back to the wall does it and it was it was it under there that you felt the draft I think so yes right now
00:27:04 the draft I think so yes right now paragraph 48 you say and you've told us just a few moments ago due to our dissatisfaction with the work my husband did not sign off the new windows and the
00:27:15 did not sign off the new windows and the heating system just focusing on signing off or not signing off the new windows did TMO ever ask your husband to sign off the windows I think it was generally
00:27:27 off the windows I think it was generally probably the contractors or the people doing the work that was always a sign enough of work completed as I recall and I know particularly for these two for the heating system and for the windows
00:27:38 the heating system and for the windows because of the issues that we had he didn't sign off on that I don't know whether you know with their form so the signatures actually we're for whether anybody checked or whether their form
00:27:50 anybody checked or whether their form part of any compliance or standards I don't know but I know that we always have to sign on on the works and for these to be didn't okay can we just
00:28:01 these to be didn't okay can we just press press that a little bit more do you remember whether there was a form or piece of paper that you referred to a moment ago that the contractors asked you or your husband to sign yes there
00:28:14 you or your husband to sign yes there was a form it was a it was a paper and I believe it stated the work completed and require signature I think that's really what it was and did the do you remember
00:28:26 what it was and did the do you remember whether the formal peaceful piece of paper it gave you or your husband an option to say no I'm not signing off or and not happy I don't I
00:28:38 signing off or and not happy I don't I don't remember that I just know that you either sign or or if there was an option it wasn't explained to us okay did you have a discussion with your husband about whether he should sign to say he
00:28:51 about whether he should sign to say he was happy with the windows yeah we were at a time especially at a time of the windows and the heating we both were at a flood so we we discussed this day to day basis and we both agreed in
00:29:03 day basis and we both agreed in particular for these two for the windows and the heat him do you remember whether anything happened as a result of your husband not signing off the form saying
00:29:14 husband not signing off the form saying that he signing off the windows I don't think nothing really happened it looks to me again that probably was just the form for the contractors to to show their finished and completed work done
00:29:25 their finished and completed work done and I don't recall anybody following up why we didn't sign all that there was a problem that's not signing yes now can I ask you them to go back to page 5 of
00:29:37 ask you them to go back to page 5 of your statement and look at paragraph 33
00:29:44 you say there and this is under the heading refurbishments a couple of paragraphs above you say there were issues with
00:29:55 above you say there were issues with electrical power surges at the tower my computer and other electrical equipment would suddenly turn off I can't remember when this was it may have coincided with some of the works on the tower but I'm
00:30:06 some of the works on the tower but I'm not 100% sure I believe this issue was reported to the TMA but it was my husband that always dealt with them did you experience any problems with the
00:30:18 you experience any problems with the electricity power supply on the night of the 14th of June itself 13th 14th of June on the night now on the night now what about the period of time shortly before that night I don't think the I
00:30:33 before that night I don't think the I mean short period of time I don't think so I mean this was referring to I think even prior having having thought about it I think was prior to the refurbishment of our issues with the surges and again no talking to our
00:30:45 surges and again no talking to our neighbors that a lot of people had problems and it it caused problems in various appliances and electrical other equipment that you have and that was definitely discuss ability I more
00:30:57 definitely discuss ability I more believe at a time thank you okay we're just talking about your own personal experience in your own in your own flat did you or your husband when was the last time that you or your husband experienced an electrical power
00:31:09 husband experienced an electrical power surge such as that you described here before the fire do you remember I think it was on this occasion I recall myself I don't really remember or recall any other time but again as I'm not that
00:31:20 other time but again as I'm not that young today most of the week if there was a smaller appearance probably not having such an impact Amana not have picked up on it yes can I then ask you some questions
00:31:33 yes can I then ask you some questions about fire safety
00:31:39 and we can start I think with page eight of your statement please a paragraph 54 this is two paragraphs down from the heading fire safety and we can read
00:31:51 heading fire safety and we can read paragraph 52 and 53 but 54 you say about two months before the fire I remember a sign in the main lobby on the ground floor had been placed by the lift saying
00:32:02 floor had been placed by the lift saying do not use the difference in case of fire and stay inside the flat and wait for assistance I had not noticed it before this is the only sign of that I could remember seeing in the building when I read it I remember thinking there
00:32:14 when I read it I remember thinking there was no way I would stay put now first of all can the witness please be shown inq 93 at 6:09 3
00:32:33 Europe is this sign familiar to you no
00:32:42 you say you've never seen a sign like this in Grandville tower I don't remember seeing it no okay what was the sign that you say you did see what did
00:32:54 sign that you say you did see what did it look like it was just a note printed on a paper and it was placed between the two legs we heard in a lobby and a ground-floor and I remembered
00:33:05 ground-floor and I remembered particulars I came from work in the evening and I saw a note so I've read it and it stated I cannot paraphrase but as you put that in case of a fire stay put
00:33:16 you put that in case of a fire stay put wait for assistance and I remember thinking to myself straight away that's very strange that that would be the complete opposite to what I would have done and I remember coming back home and
00:33:28 done and I remember coming back home and discussing it with my husband and we both agreed that we definitely would want to get out of the building if there was a fire right and I guess it it's the sort of automatic action you do I mean
00:33:39 sort of automatic action you do I mean you you at work you have these you know fire drills every every to every you know twice a year so you you know what to do you know you leave straightaway don't you don't you know use the left and that's it and I guess maybe that
00:33:52 and that's it and I guess maybe that kind of kicked in as well I just didn't understand why I would stay you know on a 20th floor if there's a fire and we did discuss it and we agreed that we would want to get out say this sign you
00:34:07 would want to get out say this sign you say it was a note you said it's a note printed on a paper with how is it attached to the wall you know I don't really remember it must either
00:34:18 I don't really remember it must either with a solitaire but it was glued I have never seen it before or maybe I haven't noticed it before but that particular time I did notice it do you remember how
00:34:29 time I did notice it do you remember how long this piece of paper said I Tatel glue to the wall stayed there for I think it stay there for definitely for at least a week or two was it replaced by anything I don't remember if it was
00:34:46 by anything I don't remember if it was if it was taken away it would not be replaced with anything if it was just there for a purpose as an information it was there between the two lifts so it's in a place where I guess most people would have seen and then would have read
00:34:57 would have seen and then would have read it and you say it was a printed on a piece of paper could you just describe that I mean it's difficult to to do but did it look like a permanent did it like
00:35:10 did it look like a permanent did it like a permanent notice no no it looked at it look at temporary notice it didn't look permanent and I hope I'm recalling it correctly that's my recollection anyway that I've seen the note probably just
00:35:22 that I've seen the note probably just printed a text printed on a paper glute for people to to inform and to read now you say that you you say that this was about two months before the fire and you
00:35:33 about two months before the fire and you saw this sign how do you know it was two months I think it was a guess it wasn't later than two months not later than two months okay and before you saw that sign
00:35:46 months okay and before you saw that sign there did you see did you ever see any fire notices in the building advising residents about what they should do in case there was a fire in the building I don't recall notices mom what about on
00:36:00 I don't recall notices mom what about on your floor floor 20 is there any notice there I don't remember any notice that it well could be there was and I have a
00:36:11 it well could be there was and I have a notice it I mean there was a you know big communal Lobby and we had a lot of space for notices that but I don't recall seen any notice on what to do in case of a fire
00:36:22 case of a fire you lived in the tower by June 2017 for pretty much 19 years during that time do you remember there being other fires
00:36:33 you remember there being other fires elsewhere in the building in that time I know that was a file but obviously it's something I learned after I was in there at a time right but this was prior to
00:36:46 at a time right but this was prior to the refurbishment and there was also an incident that my husband went through I was at work that was just an accident somebody left the pot the next door and
00:36:57 somebody left the pot the next door and I think the smoke that came to our flat I think what my husband described was so powerful and overwhelming I think that kind of reinforced the the notion of you know if there's a serious virus there is
00:37:08 know if there's a serious virus there is occurrence you definitely didn't want to stay somewhere when a fairly small accident leads to a flood full of smoke so I guess these are the things that
00:37:21 so I guess these are the things that left who asked you to believe that right thing to do was to leave in case there is a fire hmm we'll come to that in just a moment because I want to ask you about
00:37:32 a moment because I want to ask you about that but before I do can I just ask you prior to seeing this sign about two months or so before the fire was there
00:37:44 months or so before the fire was there any advice to residents that you knew about about what residents should do in the event of a fire now a paragraph 55 you say as you just told us that you
00:37:57 you say as you just told us that you discussed the safety of the building and what we were doing the event of a fire we both agreed that we would not follow the stay-put advice can you tell us what
00:38:08 the stay-put advice can you tell us what what were your reasons for coming to that decision I I think it's just an instinct and just thinking about how you
00:38:22 instinct and just thinking about how you know the building is how it's designed thinking about two lives that obviously you shouldn't use in case of a fire and also thinking about the stairwell I mean it's not the biggest most widest level it's quite dark sometimes I used it on
00:38:34 it's quite dark sometimes I used it on numbers
00:38:35 numbers occasions when the lifts didn't work and
00:38:40 so I think the thinking was if there is a fire as soon as we can get out given all these circumstances the better and also as I mentioned you know I'm used to
00:38:51 also as I mentioned you know I'm used to from work you you leave the building when there's a fire and and I think that's just pretty much it and also I think is probably relying on advice of somebody else and you just want to make
00:39:02 somebody else and you just want to make a responsibility for your own life you just you just make yourself safe and I cannot understand why the policy of stay put I mean I think the building as it was obviously already worked in case of
00:39:14 was obviously already worked in case of a fire
00:39:16 a fire but I guess theory would probably want to leave the building and you say in paragraph 55 this led to my husband and
00:39:28 paragraph 55 this led to my husband and I discussing the safety of the building and it would I be right in thinking that the this you refer to is the appearance of this notice on the ground floor by the lifts that you've seen yes it was
00:39:41 the lifts that you've seen yes it was quite strange it suddenly appeared and I think it made me you know think about a bubble who happen a little bit more and so I do recall that we did discuss it
00:39:53 so I do recall that we did discuss it and we didn't go into great amount of details like it asking me why he would leave I think it's as I say more feel though he had that we really dry to be outdone in hmm and was there nothing
00:40:05 outdone in hmm and was there nothing else in the almost 19 years during which you were living in the tower that had prompted that discussion before no now
00:40:17 prompted that discussion before no now at page 8 power of 56 just below you say a few weeks later we packed a bag while most important documents and belongings
00:40:28 most important documents and belongings including our passports in case we were evacuated from the building in a hurry this bag was kept in the bedroom
00:40:40 what made you do that at that time I think again that stems back from the initial discussions that we had and and
00:40:52 initial discussions that we had and and you you think what would happen if we suddenly have to run or you had to leave and we said well we don't have anything to take with us anything really anything important so we had the case and my
00:41:07 important so we had the case and my husband brought it said let's just put some important things in it and actually the weekend before the fire we've put I've put some of my my personal possessions and put our passports in
00:41:18 possessions and put our passports in there and I had some of my other documents my birth certificates and and we put it in there and it just so happened that it actually prove quite useful at the time because I was the
00:41:29 useful at the time because I was the only documents we had left and it was just these things led to to deny which was in a way strange but that's what happened
00:41:44 was that was there anything else that have happened between the discussion that you refer to in paragraph 58 if you had five that you had with your husband about the safety of the building and the time when you packed the bag yes we had
00:41:58 time when you packed the bag yes we had a sudden visit from the fire brigade I think it was the weekend not before but maybe that the one two weeks before at the weekend they knocked on our door
00:42:10 the weekend they knocked on our door and they wanted to know whether we had smoke alarm and whether it worked yes which was unusual because it never happened before and you cover that at paragraph 57 of your statement in pretty
00:42:24 paragraph 57 of your statement in pretty much the same terms and did you pack this bag before or after the visit from the London Fire Brigade that you described there I think this was two
00:42:35 described there I think this was two unrelated issues I think the visit from the fire brigade was I mean it was unusual but we always had smoke alarm
00:42:47 unusual but we always had smoke alarm and always tested that the batteries and it works so it was just a question of my husband saying yes we have it and it works and I was it they didn't come in we didn't talk to them and I didn't
00:42:58 we didn't talk to them and I didn't really give it much thought so the backing of the back was more of the we discussed you know the notice and what would we do in case of a fire and just realizing that if he had to evacuate we had nothing to take with us
00:43:10 evacuate we had nothing to take with us and so I would say these were separate that the fire men come into the flood was just what I recall happen again which was quite unusual but three things kind of happened shortly before the fire
00:43:23 kind of happened shortly before the fire yeah my question was really whether the you pack this bag before via the London Fire Brigade came to do their visit or whether you packed it as a result of them it wasn't done as a result of them
00:43:35 them it wasn't done as a result of them come into our flat no it was more of our discussions and the notice and our lives and discussing what would we do in case of a fire really what was the impetus for you know getting us a little
00:43:48 for you know getting us a little organized and getting the more important things so that we can easily take them so in case we need them that say was it before that visit the you packed
00:43:59 it could have been at a similar time or it could have been slightly you know the following weekend when the other be
00:44:11 following weekend when the other be visited your flat as you've described and did they advise you about what to do in case there was a fire no it was as I said it was a very short discussion I
00:44:25 said it was a very short discussion I heard my husband open the door and there was a fabricator asking whether he heard a smoke alarm it was functional I think them I have want to come in I think my husband said no it's in a
00:44:36 think my husband said no it's in a hallway I keep an eye on it it's working it's functional and that was the extent of the interaction we had with them on that day did you ask I think you've probably answered this question but I'll
00:44:47 probably answered this question but I'll ask it anyway did you did you ask the London Fire Brigade representatives who came to your flat about the notice that you'd seen nothing about what you should do no did the lfb check your smoke
00:45:02 do no did the lfb check your smoke alarms no they didn't was this the first visit that you'd ever had from the lfb
00:45:13 visit that you'd ever had from the lfb none of the London Fire Brigade or how do you think it was the first one said yes as at June 2017 what was your
00:45:25 yes as at June 2017 what was your understanding about what you as a resident should do in case there was a fire elsewhere in the block I don't think I had a clear idea I mean I knew
00:45:39 think I had a clear idea I mean I knew somehow that the stay put policy I know that the floods were designed for some reason whether we discussed it over every knew it was maybe it was just part
00:45:51 every knew it was maybe it was just part of the notice that I'm now kind of linking this
00:45:57 yeah I don't think we had any discussions or any ideas on you clearly what to do in case of a fire prior to the notice or or even I don't
00:46:11 prior to the notice or or even I don't recall discussing it before mr. Chappel we've been going forward just about 45 minutes it may be appropriate now to take a short break are you happy to take a short break now
00:46:26 I feel I feel okay if everybody else is okay to continue why don't we do that's gonna continue for court or not yes mr.
00:46:38 gonna continue for court or not yes mr. Lyon get Dolliver I'm going to turn now to the night of the fire okay the 13th 14th of of June you tell us on page 9 of your statement when you
00:46:50 us on page 9 of your statement when you pick this up at paragraph 60 that you spent the evening of the 13th of June 2017 with your husband having come home from work about 7:15 and you'd gone to
00:47:03 from work about 7:15 and you'd gone to bed about 11 p.m. and you say I think all of our flat windows were opened because it was summer and it was a lovely warm evening your flat we thought
00:47:17 lovely warm evening your flat we thought what were all your flat windows open including the windows probably said all but I think definitely the window at bedroom and probably the because it was
00:47:30 bedroom and probably the because it was open open room so the kitchen and living era open-plan definitely had a one window opened that which would cover probably the whole open plan era but definitely had windows open yes
00:47:42 definitely had windows open yes and then in paragraph 61 you say the next thing I remember was my husband jumping out of bed suddenly waking me up I then realized the smoke alarm in our hallway was going off just taking this
00:47:54 hallway was going off just taking this step by step if we can um you were still in the bedroom is this right when you heard the alarm the smoke alarm going off yes I I wasn't walking on by the
00:48:06 off yes I I wasn't walking on by the smoke alarm I was talking about suddenly know my husband jump out of bed and it was only probably within a minute or so I realized that the alarm was you know going on yes did and did you put
00:48:18 know going on yes did and did you put the lights on in the bedroom I think my husband did yes could you see any smoke inside at that time no could you smell
00:48:29 inside at that time no could you smell any smoke at that time when I just woke up no okay if you then go on to say that you got up and put some trousers on them and then went into the hallway where you say I
00:48:40 went into the hallway where you say I thought I could sell smell smoke that's paragraph 62 when you smelt the smoke in town as you say in paragraph 62 um did
00:48:53 town as you say in paragraph 62 um did it have a particular smell or taste
00:49:01 I don't really remember the exact taste or smell I think what it was is that previously my husband went to see what was happening and open the front door and I probably let some of the smoke
00:49:12 and I probably let some of the smoke from the communal area come in the hallway right and it definitely I could probably more see and sense the smoke obviously the the hallway was lit so you could see the the smokiness of the room
00:49:25 could see the the smokiness of the room and it was unusual right and I guess maybe at the time I still wasn't thinking as clearly I just woke up suddenly and you know the alarm is off and and we kind of trying to figure out what I said what is happening did you
00:49:37 what I said what is happening did you get any kind of impression about what time it was I wasn't very clear at first but I thought and which was correct when
00:49:48 but I thought and which was correct when I got woken up by my husband I look at the clock I had a digital alarm next to the bed and I thought it was 120 when I woke up and it was 120 yes
00:50:07 when you went into the hall and you smelled smoke could you see any smoke yes it wasn't very strong at a time it was more like when you're in a smoky
00:50:18 was more like when you're in a smoky room you can see the you know in a light you can see the small kind of wafting through yes at first you see us a opaque yes impression could you tell where the smoke that you could you could see was
00:50:30 smoke that you could you could see was coming from no I think the only place I went I went to kitchen there was the window was open just to
00:50:42 there was the window was open just to China generally seeing what's happening and I don't know at the time my husband told me that that something seems to be happening and we might have to leave and go into the kitchen the window was open
00:50:53 go into the kitchen the window was open it was no smoke in the kitchen then I didn't lean out but I could hear people outside screaming your building is on fire get out you know there was quite a
00:51:05 fire get out you know there was quite a lot of that and so I just went to the bathroom put my bathrobe on my husband said let's pick up two towels wet them and use them for then we have to leave because looks like we have to leave and
00:51:17 because looks like we have to leave and that was when I probably started to notice a little more of the detail and started to notice the smoke in the hallway I didn't go to the living room I just banana from bedroom to hallway to
00:51:28 just banana from bedroom to hallway to kitchen bathroom and then Holloway again and in the hallway did you did you where where was this mate concentrated I think it wouldn't be more to us the ceiling
00:51:39 it wouldn't be more to us the ceiling could you still see the ceiling yes and
00:51:46 yes and at that stage when you went into the hallway I think I asked you before but did you see if I can just get this right did the smoke of a particular smell it smell like anything it's not before in
00:51:59 smell like anything it's not before in the hallway I don't really remember that the smell is it I mean it was like a like a smorgasbord at that's hot in our hallway now in paragraph 63 on page 9
00:52:14 hallway now in paragraph 63 on page 9 you say I then went into the kitchen and looked after the window which was open I could not see much but I could hear a commotion outside now your kitchen
00:52:25 commotion outside now your kitchen window I think faces West yes you you say you couldn't see much and you think I want to say in the third line I could not see any smoke or fire outside but my
00:52:38 not see any smoke or fire outside but my husband lent out then further out of the window past the cladding and looked up
00:52:46 where were you standing when he was leaning out I was behind him in which direction did he look up was it left or right yeah so basically just to quickly maybe explain like because of the
00:52:58 maybe explain like because of the cladding you had to really lean you know quite quite widely out to see the same view he had before and he really leaned I mean probably from his waist all the
00:53:09 I mean probably from his waist all the way and he looked he looked down he looked to the left to the right and he leaned and kind of looked up like seriously really leaned out yes and I didn't know at the time but he told me later that he could see a lot of smoke
00:53:23 later that he could see a lot of smoke rising from the back at the top of the tower and that's what made him realize that there's something quite big must be happening because we couldn't see any fire at the time of fire engines really and that was really made his mind up
00:53:35 and that was really made his mind up maybe we should leave and that's pretty much it
00:53:39 much it yes so you're standing behind him he leans out he looks up do you remember whether he was looking upwards to the right or upwards to the left as you're looking I think he would looked in all
00:53:50 looking I think he would looked in all sides but then he looked kind of leaned up and look upwards really completely up at the top right I cannot straight
00:53:59 and you say in paragraph 63 a line up from the bottom he saw smoke pouring out
00:54:10 from the bottom he saw smoke pouring out of the top of the tower did he tell you that at the time not how did you how did you know that he saw that when we talked later he told me all this I think on an
00:54:21 later he told me all this I think on an IT problem wanna made the situation worse I mean he he was very calm you know outwardly and very decisive and that kind of calmed me down as well so
00:54:33 that kind of calmed me down as well so that when he said we need to get out I just said yeah let's get out and that was it I was really the only thing on our minds afterwards and I think when he told me what he saw I'm you have to
00:54:45 told me what he saw I'm you have to realize that he when he jump out of the bat he went to check if there's something inside our flood that's happening and then he went to open the front door and obviously I didn't see at
00:54:56 front door and obviously I didn't see at the time what he saw or didn't see when he open the front door so he knew that was something's here was going on and then he saw the the smoke coming from you know the other side so all of these
00:55:07 you know the other side so all of these kind of inputs led to the decision of us leaving and yeah you're right I I didn't know at the time that he saw that he told me later do you remember what he said to you at that moment when he
00:55:18 said to you at that moment when he looked up he just said you know we have to we have to leave I'll get some towels be with them and we take our bag and we go so I just went and follows it
00:55:30 go so I just went and follows it basically put my trainers on which I left there from the gym session the night before and took a towel and then made my way to the front door I should
00:55:41 made my way to the front door I should have asked you before where did you keep this bag that you have really packed it was in a bedroom it's just on top of it just literally by the door so on top of my dresser there so he just grabbed that
00:55:53 my dresser there so he just grabbed that I didn't go back in in a bedroom I didn't even pick up my phone on my back I just I just I wanted to get out you same paragraph 64 I went back into
00:56:05 you same paragraph 64 I went back into the hallway and it felt hazy so did you go back into your hallway from the kitchen window the kitchen yes okay and when you went back into the hallway you
00:56:17 when you went back into the hallway you say it felt hazy was that was that hey zo me it's felt a little more a little more and was the smoke thicker at that
00:56:28 more and was the smoke thicker at that at that time it felt to gas but were the conditions in your hallway hotter did you feel heat no and and at that time on
00:56:41 you feel heat no and and at that time on your I think second entry into the hallway did you did you notice where the smoke was coming into the hallway from
00:56:51 no because I just went to the hallway - to leave so I haven't really noticed anything so I opened the door and I was
00:57:04 anything so I opened the door and I was when I kind of was astounded for what I saw and I closed the door again yes and went to for some reason went to kitchen
00:57:16 went to for some reason went to kitchen - window - to take a breath of fresh air before I attempted the second time and our time I left the flat and obviously
00:57:27 our time I left the flat and obviously the the the the the communal always always well-lit it was spacious and obviously I lived there a long time so I knew where the door to this devil was
00:57:40 knew where the door to this devil was but this was this is just something I've never experienced before it was pitch black full of really horrible what felt
00:57:52 black full of really horrible what felt like a toxic smoke and the sound was very strange as well it was like 'wait kind of low kind of humming strange sound so I just felt my way around the
00:58:05 sound so I just felt my way around the walls because I couldn't see anything and I knew over there where the door was so I kind of made my way to it it was kind of opposite lifts to the right and I thought I found it I was pushing
00:58:17 and I thought I found it I was pushing it wouldn't open I realize it wasn't the door it was the wall I was trying to push I had to feel bit to the right and then the door opened to the servo and the first thing that really struck me
00:58:28 the first thing that really struck me was that there was nobody that I was expecting a lot of people you know leaving the building on a stairwell there was nobody and I just basically was waiting for my husband who was
00:58:39 was waiting for my husband who was behind me they didn't know he was trying to close the door and the feeling I had what I saw on a stairwell it's I cannot describe visually but what
00:58:50 it's I cannot describe visually but what I felt emotionally I know at the time and I got that I thought well this is really serious we really need to get out quickly and I remember calling to my husband to say you know what's taking so long please hurry up we really have to
00:59:02 long please hurry up we really have to go and he did finally and he run first past me and unfortunately for him because he was holding the bag in one hand and holding onto the rail to the
00:59:15 hand and holding onto the rail to the other he just had his towel on top of his head where I could hold it in front of my mouth yes and we we just went for it I mean V we didn't walk down we run down I mean we really run and he would
00:59:27 down I mean we really run and he would stop a few times to call out to see I was still behind I was all right and so we're running out and already then this devil was smoking and I think I just saw
00:59:40 devil was smoking and I think I just saw my trainers and the handrail and as we were running down I think the conditions were getting worse I mean the smoke was felt it was darker and we run to I think
00:59:56 felt it was darker and we run to I think between four and six firefighters or even more I think as we were reaching definitely below a 10th floor and as we were running towards that space the
01:00:07 were running towards that space the smoke was getting really quite boring and thick and I felt well are we running into something you know quite bad here but we saw the firemen they didn't stop us I thought well it must be ok to go
01:00:19 us I thought well it must be ok to go through and I just recall the day had the fire door open and one floor I cannot say which floor that was and I know the door was open and they had of houses and there was a lot of activity going on and that's why the
01:00:31 activity going on and that's why the smoke was really the thickest once we run past there the air cleared and we went mezzanine and down the stairs and we exited why are the east east exit
01:00:45 we exited why are the east east exit which was on the main exit on the east side and the problem was that as we run down there was nobody down that actually kind of guide us or tell us to be careful I mean we we nearly got hit by
01:00:56 careful I mean we we nearly got hit by the debris that was falling from the building and then we made made very carefully out towards the south side of the building towards like the garage
01:01:07 the building towards like the garage floor and that's why we look up and that's we really saw what was happening and I think the whole eastern wall of the tower was basically on fire and
01:01:19 the tower was basically on fire and that's the first we saw yes I was deliver thank you for all of that we're gonna take a break now and it'll allow
01:01:30 gonna take a break now and it'll allow me to read through what you've just told us and see how many more questions for you I think I will but if there's a give that's convenient moment yes I think so
01:01:48 that's convenient moment yes I think so they'll give you time to stretch your legs have a cup of coffee whatever I have to ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence while you're all right and if you go the Archos you look after them resume record possible
01:02:01 look after them resume record possible thanks so much
01:02:12 right course Austin okay sir
01:14:15 right Missoula ever to carry on yes good thank you
01:14:19 thank you you stole of a thank you for coming back to us can I ask you please first to be shown a picture of a fire notice which is Quinn tuples iws Quinn tuple 0 500
01:15:06 that may be a miss references right well we've got it I WS five deer quintuple
01:15:19 we've got it I WS five deer quintuple zero five zero five zero zero
01:15:39 that's it thank you very much we found it and the reference is correct have a moment to look at this notice it says
01:15:50 moment to look at this notice it says the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea in case of fire the use nearest telephone and call fabricate dial 999 and ask for and it's not clear what that
01:16:02 and ask for and it's not clear what that is state clearly the location of the fire inform the porter immediately do not use the lifts leave the building using the staircase close all doors do not re-enter the building do you
01:16:14 not re-enter the building do you remember ever seeing a sign like this I
01:16:23 don't remember maybe I did see it and it didn't register I don't remember this note um can I ask you to then then to go
01:16:38 note um can I ask you to then then to go back in your statement please to paragraph 38 which you'll find on page 6 and there you say I refused paragraph 38
01:16:53 and there you say I refused paragraph 38 I refused to have the extractor fan in the kitchen window so a white plastic MDF panel covered the area instead can you tell us why did you refuse to have
01:17:04 you tell us why did you refuse to have an extractor fan in the kitchen window I think for me it was more of an aesthetic decision I didn't see the reason for it
01:17:16 decision I didn't see the reason for it at the window and I believed that we had discussion with our neighbors that had it and they complained about the noise
01:17:28 it and they complained about the noise and if I remember correctly and so that we we had discussion with the contractors at a time and they they put
01:17:42 contractors at a time and they they put a panel to cover that it was a small pain at the top of the window in a kitchen so we had that covered we didn't want it both of us okay
01:17:53 want it both of us okay now can I pick up the story where we left off just before the break and you've given us a very helpful and very detailed description of your exit and descent through the building and/or exit
01:18:06 descent through the building and/or exit from the building eventually and can I just take a few things in stages if I can first of all when you came out of your flat who was it who opened the front door was it you or your husband
01:18:18 front door was it you or your husband iowa's it was you did you notice when you came out of your flat a change in the temperature it's felt definitely
01:18:29 the temperature it's felt definitely much warmer than the flood but I don't really remember much of a difference I guess at a time you know though the focus was just to leave and I think the
01:18:40 focus was just to leave and I think the confusion and trying to find your way probably didn't notice okay when you got out or rather when you opened the door could you see into the lobby no no sir
01:18:52 could you see into the lobby no no sir pitch black pitch black now you say that the the this is paragraph 65 to 66 and perhaps we just ought to have those on the screen you say in the second line in
01:19:11 the screen you say in the second line in Paris 65 the landing was full of thick black smoke and that's the occasion when
01:19:22 black smoke and that's the occasion when you've then closed the front door again and then you say in 67 I composed myself grab my keys in the hallway and open the front door again when you did that where
01:19:34 front door again when you did that where was your husband he he was I think in a living room he won that for some reason he pick up a phone mobile phone which
01:19:45 he pick up a phone mobile phone which was useful later I I think that's where he was and I know he was gonna follow shortly after me yes and do you remember
01:19:58 shortly after me yes and do you remember smelling the smoke or tasting it it was more of a feeling of of breathin it was it felt which is breathing was
01:20:12 it was it felt which is breathing was very difficult it's very hard and I think it was all the senses coming together you know that the visual that the pitch-black the the smoke that kind of overhelmed kind of senses all at once
01:20:24 of overhelmed kind of senses all at once I think it was more more of that then picking up one particular thing now you described in your evidence just before
01:20:37 described in your evidence just before the break that when you got into the lobby you heard a and I'm quoting you from the transcript from this morning you had you said you had a weird kind of low humming strange sound was it a sound you'd heard before no it
01:20:52 was it a sound you'd heard before no it was a very strange again as I say all the senses and that's that's what I felt opening the door it felt very strange like when you are in in a basement and you have maybe boiler room a kind of
01:21:04 you have maybe boiler room a kind of weird sensation of which is hard to describe in warrants was it was that sound you heard this low humming strange
01:21:15 sound you heard this low humming strange sound was it different from the sound that you'd heard being made by the vents on the previous occasions similar it just felt a little bit a car lower frequency again it's it's difficult to
01:21:30 frequency again it's it's difficult to to put in words what it was but there definitely to me I have heard something go association but I remember a weird
01:21:41 go association but I remember a weird kind of strange low kind of humming sound as I was open the door and then one pseudo loved it you said you described it as weird and strange is it does that mean it's a sound you'd never say it before that yes that's why I used
01:21:53 say it before that yes that's why I used it yes I've never come across that kind of sound before yes right was it quieter in volume than the sound that you'd
01:22:04 in volume than the sound that you'd heard coming from the vents on the previous occasions you've mentioned I think so yes yes now I just want to plot your route
01:22:16 yes now I just want to plot your route across the lobby if I if I can Kai can I ask you please to be shown first of all a meaty triple zero one two five
01:22:27 of all a meaty triple zero one two five nine three at page 12
01:22:39 now this is a a plan diagram of the tower at floor 4 as we can see 16 on
01:22:51 tower at floor 4 as we can see 16 on that on that diagram and it's the same all the way up so using this plan you're in the West facing flat can you just describe for us the route that you took across the lobby
01:23:04 the route that you took across the lobby once you left your front door but before you got to the stairwell door so we could blow it up we blow up yeah perhaps the flat and the and the lobby
01:23:17 perhaps the flat and the and the lobby as far as we can as it was as I mentioned was so dark I used my hands I felt the wall on my right so we come out
01:23:29 felt the wall on my right so we come out of your front sign you yeah so I knew but I had to go straight and right so I felt with my hand and came to the end to
01:23:40 felt with my hand and came to the end to the corner there and made my way across to the other side and got to the other side of the the world basically where
01:23:51 side of the the world basically where the new kinda heating system was put up and loved us boxed em right now just just pausing there what you've described and can you point out the other side you've just referred to by reference to
01:24:03 you've just referred to by reference to this plan do by all means get up and indicate so you came out yes and then
01:24:15 indicate so you came out yes and then some cross because I knew that the Fido was here so I just cut across here and initially I came to go by here and trying to open the door I see and then I
01:24:29 trying to open the door I see and then I figure I had to be got slightly more to the right to find a Fido I see okay what you described in paragraph 68 of your statement if you
01:24:40 paragraph 68 of your statement if you could just hate threat threw that up on the screen is that you you say and I composed my sorry I managed to make my way round
01:24:51 way round as hooters get out to paragraph 68 I managed to make my way round the landing like and thought I had reached the fire door but I could not open it and thought it was locked I then realized it was the wall and felt
01:25:04 I then realized it was the wall and felt around a little further and finally found the fire door to the stairwell and pushed it open now just just focusing on that experience you've shown us what you
01:25:15 that experience you've shown us what you encountered at first on the far side of the wall opposite the lifts can we have a photograph and please which is quadruples sorry BL a quadruple zero two
01:25:27 quadruples sorry BL a quadruple zero two five one four now we this is floor six so not your floor but here we can see
01:25:39 so not your floor but here we can see the two lifts and then opposite the lifts are covered with a blue circular plaque on it can you help us was that
01:25:50 plaque on it can you help us was that what you're describing as the wall that you've found originally when you've said that you thought the door was locked yes I said wall a bit later than you are
01:26:01 yes I said wall a bit later than you are new box day it's the new cupboards yes okay
01:26:05 okay and with those cupboards put there as part of the refurbishment do you remember they were now in paragraph 68
01:26:17 remember they were now in paragraph 68 of your statement you say as we've just seen if we can just go back to that you you say in the third line I finally
01:26:28 you say in the third line I finally found the fire door to the stairwell and pushed it open when you did push it open do you remember whether it was harder to
01:26:39 do you remember whether it was harder to push them usual it was quite easier to push open it never snow changed from other times I used the stairwell right
01:26:51 other times I used the stairwell right did you feel any kind of pressure against the far door as you pushed it open I don't think so
01:27:01 did you did you wait for your husband I opened the door kept it open while I was waiting for him to join me in the stairwell how long did you have to wait
01:27:12 stairwell how long did you have to wait for him it felt felt a long time but probably would have been 10 or 15 minutes at most minutes sorry seconds and while you were holding the door open
01:27:23 and while you were holding the door open did smoke come into the stairwell my recollection is that was already smoke in a sterile when I opened it all okay
01:27:35 in a sterile when I opened it all okay say let's just take that in stages when you opened the stairwell into thee sorry the door into the stairwell was the stairwell illuminated is it lit
01:27:46 was the stairwell illuminated is it lit I don't remember really it was I think it probably was but it was quite dark to me it fell dark probably because of
01:27:59 me it fell dark probably because of smoke in there already I just remember the sensation of once I get to the stairwell and what I saw that I saw yes this is probably serious and
01:28:11 I saw yes this is probably serious and we really have to leave it's not much of a visual recollection it's more of emotional what I felt and what I remember I felt as I opened it all yes
01:28:22 remember I felt as I opened it all yes okay but let me see how we go this start at this time you're wearing a towel over your head is that wrong no I hold it hold it in front of my face okay so you could see yes yes I could see yes okay
01:28:37 could see yes yes I could see yes okay and was the smoke in the stairwell when you pushed the door even thicker or thinner than mr. smoke that you come through
01:28:47 through it was cinema because it was miss dinner yeah
01:28:53 yeah and were you able to breathe it breathe it without the assistance of the town I recall that the breed in vidalitay was very hard they were still smoked and I
01:29:06 very hard they were still smoked and I felt it felt really difficult in the stairwell as one and you held that because you say you held the door open for your husband and he came after 10 or
01:29:20 for your husband and he came after 10 or 15 seconds did the door then close behind you Thanks it did at that time during your journey across the lobby did you get any sense
01:29:32 across the lobby did you get any sense of what was going on with the the other neighbors you had on your floor no did your husband tell us anything about what
01:29:43 your husband tell us anything about what they might have been doing I I guess at the time what was really on our mind and especially when I opened the front door
01:29:55 especially when I opened the front door took me took us together three attempts to leave and and kind of feeling that disorientation and all the things happen in quite quickly and really truly
01:30:08 in quite quickly and really truly honestly I only thought about running and getting out and I guess it's one of these things you look back in saying what if I could have fun the other store
01:30:19 what if I could have fun the other store and look on them and it's something we obviously have to deal with ourselves but no we didn't see anybody or didn't come across anybody once that
01:30:34 when you got into the stairwell did you notice a change in the temperature I
01:30:41 don't think I did not as much okay did you notice any any air movement in the stairwell no I I think given that we
01:30:56 the stairwell no I I think given that we really were once we go that and once I had the impression of that it's of utmost importance to really rush and run I guess because we're on there was not
01:31:08 I guess because we're on there was not much time to kind of notice many other kind of inputs on fluency so I don't remember as you came down the stairs and
01:31:19 remember as you came down the stairs and you told us in detail earlier this morning the changes that you experienced as one of the things that you saw did you did you notice whether any doors to other floors were opened off the
01:31:32 other floors were opened off the stairwell on into the into the lobbies the only dollar I've noticed that was open was the one I mentioned whatever be fireman with their hoses leading from
01:31:44 fireman with their hoses leading from the stairwell to the to the main lobby that was the only door that I recall being opened and how did you come across
01:31:59 being opened and how did you come across anybody on your way down no now a paragraph seventy four of your statement just turning over the page if we can to page eleven you say between the sixth to
01:32:11 page eleven you say between the sixth to fourth floors the smoke was really thick I saw around six to ten firefighters who'd opened the door to one of the floors and their hoses were running into the landing I did not engage with these firefighters how did you notice that it
01:32:28 firefighters how did you notice that it was the sixth floor where the smoke began to be really thick I think it was just the guess I guess we were running and it was difficult to keep tally
01:32:40 and it was difficult to keep tally counting or seeing the numbers on the landings I find it quite difficult previously even to notice but because I used that first of all few times before I'm sure it was definitely
01:32:52 times before I'm sure it was definitely below 10th floor and given that after he runs through that really difficult black toxic smog we only had another four or
01:33:03 toxic smog we only had another four or three floors to go so I would assume that's where we were I see did you notice when you got to the sixth floor also any change in the temperature
01:33:14 floor also any change in the temperature in the stairwell the whole atmosphere felt much much worse I think as we were coming down from about halfway down it was getting more and more difficult
01:33:27 was getting more and more difficult darker the visibility was getting Morris and the smoke was definitely getting its fill the hole basically I would say it filled the stairwell well you couldn't
01:33:39 filled the stairwell well you couldn't really see much and
01:33:52 when you say in paragraph 74 but the firefighters opened the door to one of the floors when their hoses were running into the landing did you did you notice when you saw that where the smoke was
01:34:05 when you saw that where the smoke was coming out from that landing or Lobby into the stairwell it did look like that yes now a paragraph 77 you've said that
01:34:19 yes now a paragraph 77 you've said that the CCTV has you coming out from the bottom of the stairwell at around Oh 142 how long do you think it took you to get
01:34:32 how long do you think it took you to get from your front your flat front door to that exit at 142 I would say five
01:34:44 that exit at 142 I would say five minutes again it's a estimate I've used the stairwell mainly to go up when the lifts didn't work few times coming down
01:34:55 lifts didn't work few times coming down yeah but I would say five minutes and then you say in paragraph 79 of your statement on page 11 we eventually came
01:35:10 statement on page 11 we eventually came out of the tower via the entrance on the east side of the building just so we're clear that's the entrance which is not the main lobby is this is this correctly
01:35:22 the main lobby is this is this correctly I said there's two entrances the main pointing to the south of the building and then on Eastside and given the way the stairwell is it was easier to exit
01:35:34 the stairwell is it was easier to exit just taking a ride from the stairwell to the exit on the east side and I think we used it now than when we were exiting the building going towards Portobello
01:35:45 the building going towards Portobello rather than using the south exit so we knew you could use it was it was it was easier - it was easier to leave the building that way for us at a time yes I
01:35:56 building that way for us at a time yes I see did you need a fall to get into the building that way or could you not get into the Bill that way at all when you were leaving when you were coming in when you were
01:36:08 when you were coming in when you were coming in I would assume you would did you ever use it to come in I didn't use it to come in that way no okay was there anybody at the foot of the stairs telling you where to go or what
01:36:21 stairs telling you where to go or what to do
01:36:22 to do Edda Tommy where we barely were not there was nobody nobody pointing us
01:36:33 now at paragraph 82 on page 12 of your statement you describe that you're outside and you say my throat was
01:36:45 outside and you say my throat was burning from the smoke inhalation and my eyes were saw I could see my husband was coughing and bringing up what looked like black soot we were in utter disbelief about what had happened to us
01:36:57 was your husband treated by ambulance or paramedics at the scene we were first treated by ambulance for you by the support center by the sight we were
01:37:09 support center by the sight we were there for a little bit and we were taken to a hospital for a checkup I think we arrived by about 4:30 in the morning right so were you attracted to us you were checked well were the people who first checked
01:37:21 well were the people who first checked you and your husband first where were they based well we first made our way up a grünfeld wrote and we were taken in by a lady that lived nearby she
01:37:34 taken in by a lady that lived nearby she took us in her place and you know we had some time there we to calm down use the bathroom have a cup of tea really and then we that could have been 30 minutes then when we made our way out again
01:37:47 then when we made our way out again we were pointed towards the Sports Center that's where the on bonanzas and paramedics were that's where we were first seen and we stayed there for a while sitting there and we saw few other
01:38:00 while sitting there and we saw few other people being brought died yes okay did you did you experience any difficulty on the night in getting treatment no a page
01:38:12 the night in getting treatment no a page 13 of your statement you say in paragraph 89 at the top of the page around this time I recognized Nick
01:38:24 around this time I recognized Nick Burton and his wife pili from the tower they were also being treated in the paramedics area and they were not in a good way and then you go on to say a paragraph 19 Nick was struggling to breathe and was given oxygen pill he was
01:38:36 breathe and was given oxygen pill he was brought over by two firemen and she was in a state she kept saying she wanted to go home they were taken to hospital and separate ambulances
01:38:47 did you yourself witness them being taken separately yes you did do you know would you know why they were taken separately I don't know why I mean we saw we saw Nick first came and he was
01:39:01 we saw we saw Nick first came and he was treated he difficult to breathe in and then his wife was brought by to farm and I believe or paramedics and was given treatment as well and I just recall them
01:39:13 treatment as well and I just recall them being taken separately in separate ambulances yes mr. liver thank you very
01:39:25 ambulances yes mr. liver thank you very much for all the ways answers I've come to the end of my questions for the time being mr. chairman I wonder whether now might be an appropriate moment to take a short break just to make sure that there's nothing yes I've missed or
01:39:37 there's nothing yes I've missed or others might want to suggest as you hear mr. Miller thinks he's cops the end of his questions but on reflection it sometimes happens that he hasn't and so
01:39:49 sometimes happens that he hasn't and so we're gonna have a short break now his course to 12 couldn't give you long enough for your needles long the courts of twelve should do it if we need longer mr. chairman we can always send a message not send a message right so
01:40:00 message not send a message right so we'll break now into a corpse for 12 same rules apply these don't speak to anyone about your evidence and then we'll come back and see whether he has more custom for you
01:40:22 but mr. millet I'll say course 212 but if turns out that you need a bit more time just let me know yes mr. chairman thank you very good
01:46:31 yes mr. minutes more questions there one or two more questions yes mr. chairman in the usual way
01:46:52 right I think a few little questions but not perhaps too many yes I'm miss Donna but thank you very much for coming back to us can I just ask you one or two further questions the first is the Chi
01:47:06 further questions the first is the Chi if you'd look please at paragraph 29 of your statement on page 5 can I just pick up something with you there you say I
01:47:17 up something with you there you say I would only use the stairwell if the lifts were not working the lighting was poor so it was difficult to see the floor numbers were there difficulties with the floor numbers themselves
01:47:29 with the floor numbers themselves do you remember I think after the refurbishment I think few people had problems obviously the numbers have changed we were initially 17th floor and
01:47:40 changed we were initially 17th floor and I we were twentieth floor and I actually used the stairwell a few weeks before the fire when the lips weren't working I remembered I was in the evening came
01:47:51 remembered I was in the evening came from work and didn't want to wait for the list so decided to use this table and I remember it was quite dark in there I think the lights and some of the floors were not working and I actually
01:48:04 floors were not working and I actually had to leave the the stairwell to go into a flow to see what the numbers were on the floor to know where I was where the numbers visible to you I didn't see the numbers in some flows and I don't
01:48:16 the numbers in some flows and I don't know what it was because the lighting wasn't working on because the it was badly painted but I struggled to see some of the numbers right thank you now you say in your statement and as
01:48:31 now you say in your statement and as you've told us this morning that when you did come out you came out of the door on the east side of the tower and that just to be clear as the door that would be at the foot of the stairs on
01:48:42 would be at the foot of the stairs on the ground floor to your right as you came down the stairs yes that's right yes we can look at a photograph if we need to but that's right no that's that's correct yeah taken right from there to the east yeah um so just so
01:48:54 there to the east yeah um so just so that I'm clear was there was nobody there was there saying don't come out this way there was nobody to have you didn't meet anybody there was actually nobody that we got outside either only as we were
01:49:06 we got outside either only as we were making our way away from the building there were people trying to organize okay now if you look at paragraph 79 of your statement please on page 11 new page 11
01:49:17 page 11 you footed the page you say we eventually came out of the tower via the entrance on the east side of the building I was suddenly aware of burning debris falling from above when you came
01:49:29 debris falling from above when you came out was what quantity of burning debris was falling well my husband was coming first and in a sense he nearly got got hit by by the debris I mean he had to
01:49:40 hit by by the debris I mean he had to make a step back and that was quite a lot happen and I remember we were really tight against the side of the building I mean we didn't cry no because we didn't
01:49:51 mean we didn't cry no because we didn't see it what was happening from the outside so we very carefully made our way really close to the side of the building and luckily we didn't get hurt but it definitely nearly got to my house
01:50:04 but it definitely nearly got to my house bunting how near that how near to the east door did you see burning debris falling it it seemed quite close it seemed close sort of you are quite
01:50:15 seemed close sort of you are quite afraid to be hurt yes thank you I have just one final question please deliver
01:50:26 just one final question please deliver in addition to what you've put in your written witness statement and in addition to what you've told us this morning is there anything you'd wish to tell the Chairman about what you saw or
01:50:37 tell the Chairman about what you saw or heard or felt or smelt on the night that you observed on the night that you think it's important for the Chairman to know I think at this time I don't feel that
01:50:48 I think at this time I don't feel that anything extra I think we've covered a lot of what happened on a night maybe just mentioned that you know being here and thinking about what happened and the impact how important it is and I know
01:50:59 impact how important it is and I know that the inquiry will answer some of these questions in a second stages of divider issues and topics but to kind of make sure that especially when it comes to the building regulation in health and safety and fire safety without some
01:51:11 safety and fire safety without some clear lines of responsibility and compliance and checks so that this doesn't happen again and the lives of the 72 people and the families and also survived are not in the way
01:51:22 and also survived are not in the way that real change take place is that of a thank you very much can I thank you for coming here and assisting us today with him inquiries we really do very much
01:51:33 him inquiries we really do very much appreciate it say thank you yes I'd like to add my thanks for those of mr. millet as I'm sure you understand we need to understand what was going on in the tower at various levels at various times
01:51:45 tower at various levels at various times what the smoke was like and so on and then again that from people like you who have prepared to come along and explain to us what you experienced so no evidence is very helpful to us and I'm
01:51:56 evidence is very helpful to us and I'm very grateful to you for coming along to give it thank you very much thank you all right so now if you'd like to gather the extras you look after all right
01:52:06 thank you very much
01:52:16 yes well mr. chairman when you've got some further statements to be read in three years and I'm going to hand over now to mr. Rawat to to do that to take that on animate thank you very much
01:52:35 Thank You mr. chairman we'd like this point to put into the record six statements I will as I go
01:52:47 record six statements I will as I go through them be reading extracts from the statements themselves but if I can make this point and which applies to all six statements it is that statements in their entirety will be published and
01:52:59 their entirety will be published and will go into the record in their entirety and be considered as evidence before the inquiry in that way the first statement I would like to put into the
01:53:11 statement I would like to put into the record is that of Emma O'Connor flat 171 on the 20th floor the statement reference is iws five zeros one to one
01:53:27 there are no exhibits to go with the statement but it is a eight page statement and if we go to the eighth the page
01:53:41 it's signed on that page with the statement of truth dated B 17th of May 2018 and if I could just before I go to
01:53:54 2018 and if I could just before I go to parts of the statement themselves just give a little background and that is that miss O'Connor lived in flat 171 with her partner in carer Luke towner they had a joint tenancy
01:54:07 Luke towner they had a joint tenancy with the local authority had lived in the tower for some five years by June 2017 mr. Connor herself is disabled she requires assistance with walking and she
01:54:18 requires assistance with walking and she has walked with crutches for around five years now if I could go to paragraph 20 for mr. chairman and that's on page five of the statement and if I read from
01:54:33 of the statement and if I read from there that's the part of the statement deals with mr. Connors account of the night on 13th of June 2017 Luke and I were at home during the day as it's
01:54:44 were at home during the day as it's difficult for me to get out of the house and travel around due to my disabilities we had a takeaway meal at home that evening and I remember watching television until just after midnight we
01:54:56 television until just after midnight we both went to bed and weren't in it for that long when we heard the sirens from fire engines Luke got out of bed to check what was going on and he told me that he could see there was a fire in a
01:55:08 that he could see there was a fire in a flat near the bottom of the tower he was looking out of the kitchen window and could see the fire in a reflection on the wall of the Academy which was directly opposite our kitchen window I
01:55:20 directly opposite our kitchen window I got out of bed to see what was going on as well I couldn't see the fire from the bedroom window but I could see fire engines I went to the kitchen and looked out of the kitchen window and that's
01:55:32 out of the kitchen window and that's when I saw the fire after a few minutes we both noticed that the fire appeared to be getting bigger we also noticed that a fourth fire engine arrived at
01:55:43 that a fourth fire engine arrived at that point I heard a fire alarm I'm not sure it was coming from but it was definitely closer than the fourth floor at that moment I decided I needed to get out
01:55:54 out of the building I was conscious that if the fire spread I wouldn't be able to walk down 20 stories to the ground floor and that the lifts would not be working
01:56:05 and that the lifts would not be working when we left the flat I took my mobile phone and flip-flops Luke didn't take his phone and I didn't take my crutches we were both expecting to return to the flat shortly there was no smoke in the
01:56:19 flat shortly there was no smoke in the flat when we left when we get on when we got onto the 20th floor landing we noticed smoke coming up through the vents it did not feel unusually hot in our flat or on the 20th floor landing
01:56:32 our flat or on the 20th floor landing though it was a very warm evening so it's difficult to say for sure we call the lift
01:56:38 the lift I remember that one of the lifts was out of order that night luckily the one that was working arrived quite quickly there was no smoke in the lift it was empty when it arrived we got in and pressed
01:56:52 when it arrived we got in and pressed the button for the ground floor on the way down the lift stopped on the 11th floor where two women wearing headscarves got in when the lifts door lift doors opened on the 11th floor I
01:57:05 lift doors opened on the 11th floor I could see a bit of smoke on the 11th floor landing the smoke was not so thick that I couldn't see through it but it was definitely smokier than it had been on the 20th floor the women who got into
01:57:19 on the 20th floor the women who got into the lift looked a bit worried but not truly frightened they were speaking in their own language we didn't speak with them
01:57:27 them the lift then stopped on the third floor where we could see a woman running around on the landing shouting fire trying to alert people to get out of the tower she didn't get into the lift the
01:57:40 tower she didn't get into the lift the third floor didn't seem smokey at all but we could see members of the fire brigade with their hoses at this stage I was not yet concerned when we arrived on the ground floor it was 119 a.m. I know
01:57:54 the ground floor it was 119 a.m. I know the exact time because I sent a text as soon as we got to the ground it was not smokey on the ground floor but the vents were making very loud noises as though they were working over
01:58:05 they were working over and that's where I'll stop with that statement mr. chairman if I could go to the second statement yes thank you and that is the witness statement of mr.
01:58:16 that is the witness statement of mr. Virgilio Castro the reference is iws four zeros 1 0 9 1 and the statement incorporates three exhibits labeled VC
01:58:31 incorporates three exhibits labeled VC one VC 2 and VC 3 and these are two floor plans and then a diagram of the tower from the outside the statement has
01:58:48 tower from the outside the statement has nine pages to it and if we go to the ninth page please it stated the 20th of September 2018 and signed with a
01:59:01 September 2018 and signed with a statement of truth in summary in the statement mr. Castro explains that he'd lived in the tower for 26 years as of June 2017 at the time
01:59:16 for 26 years as of June 2017 at the time of the fire he'd lived in the he was living in the property with his friend Gennaro his daughter would also stay with him on Friday and Saturday nights and on that night his girlfriend was
01:59:28 and on that night his girlfriend was also staying with him if I could go please to paragraph 34 which is at page six of the statement
01:59:46 I pick it up from there I was woken up suddenly at about 1:15 a.m. I heard the
01:59:57 suddenly at about 1:15 a.m. I heard the sound of my smoke alarms in my flat the alarms are linked together and so would usually both go off at the same time and they both did that night my growl friend
02:00:08 they both did that night my growl friend ELISA was shouting fire fire fire my friend Gennaro was also in our room trying to wake me and Lisa up Gennaro said to me fire he was shouting
02:00:20 Gennaro said to me fire he was shouting he looked shocked he then ran off he left the flat straightaway wearing only his boxer shorts no slippers or Footwear I went to the hallway and from there I
02:00:31 I went to the hallway and from there I could see into the kitchen and could see the fire there the fire was outside the kitchen window the window was closed I could hear a very loud strange sound
02:00:42 I could hear a very loud strange sound like a wood the fire was red and around the middle of the window on the outside I didn't understand why it was making that sound I went into the kitchen as I
02:00:53 that sound I went into the kitchen as I mentioned above we have a circular ventilation fan in the top right of the kitchen window I see flames coming through this ventilation fan into the kitchen I was confused and in a panic I
02:01:05 kitchen I was confused and in a panic I wanted to try and kill the fire but I quickly realized I couldn't do anything there was a strong smell of smoke in my flat but I was not coughing at this point I have been shown the smoke and
02:01:18 point I have been shown the smoke and aspire descriptors provided to me by the Grenville tower inquiry and I would estimate this the smoke looked like image B the fire coming in through the
02:01:29 image B the fire coming in through the window was like image II but as if that was cut in half along the middle of the vertical height of the flames me and ELISA ran out of the flat I got to just
02:01:41 ELISA ran out of the flat I got to just outside my front door and then decided to try and grab my personal possessions and those which belong to my late wife and my daughter for examples watches rings necklaces and money but at
02:01:52 watches rings necklaces and money but at least grabbed me and told me this was not important when I left the flat I wasn't carrying anything I was only wearing my watch on my left wrist the two of us
02:02:04 watch on my left wrist the two of us then ran out of the flat the door to the flat had been left open by gennaro who'd left earlier as I said above the door would only close to about a 45 degree
02:02:16 would only close to about a 45 degree angle on its own and then remain open I didn't shut my front door when we left we left in a panic because of the fire in our flat there was some smoke on in
02:02:27 in our flat there was some smoke on in the landing outside my front door I've looked at the smoke descriptors and would say that the smoke was kind of in between image B and C it was black smoke I could smell the smoke more now and
02:02:39 I could smell the smoke more now and could taste it in my mouth and I started to cough if I go forward to paragraph 41 please ELISA was in front of me and we went straight to the
02:02:51 front of me and we went straight to the stairwell I had used the stairs in the past when the lift was broken so I knew where they were the landing lights were working okay and there were no other people on the landing however when I got
02:03:04 people on the landing however when I got to the stairwell it was completely dark I couldn't see my feet and I couldn't see ELISA
02:03:10 see ELISA it was dark all the way down to the bottom of the stairs once we were in the stairwell I realized that most people were coming down the stairs but some people were coming back up I don't know
02:03:23 people were coming back up I don't know if there were any firefighters in the stairwell it was dark so I couldn't see I was going to follow the people going up the stairs until my neighbor who lives in the flat directly above mine flat 156 on the 18th floor shouted at me
02:03:37 flat 156 on the 18th floor shouted at me not to go upstairs but to go downstairs instead he kept shouting no go down so we all ran down the stairs I also thought to myself that the roof door was
02:03:48 thought to myself that the roof door was usually locked so we shouldn't go upstairs there's a reference to the neighbor which is reject redacted but the statement continues in relation to the neighbor I have known
02:04:01 in relation to the neighbor I have known him for a long time but didn't know his full name until after the fire he approached me after the fire to apologize to him for shouting at me that night
02:04:09 night I now know his name is Shah Ahmed all the way down whenever we saw people running up the stairs we stopped them and told them to turn around and go back
02:04:20 and told them to turn around and go back down the stairs or they would be trapped there was thick black smoke in the stairwell on the way down but it seemed to clear after we got below around the fourth or fifth floors once we reached
02:04:32 fourth or fifth floors once we reached the ground floor I ran out of the stairwell and the lights were on in the mezzanine and ground-floor lobby area everyone was just running out I ran straight out of the building and mr.
02:04:43 straight out of the building and mr. chairman if I stopped there but I just for the record make clear that mr. Castro lived in flat one for six on the 17th floor and his exit time was 131 in
02:04:54 17th floor and his exit time was 131 in the mall thank you
02:05:03 the next statement to put into the record is the statement of mezrab kassemg n' and he lived in flat 141 on
02:05:14 kassemg n' and he lived in flat 141 on the 17th floor his exit time on the night is recorded at as 126 a.m. the inquiry statement is found at I WS five
02:05:28 inquiry statement is found at I WS five zeroes nine five one and accompanying it and to put into the record is at one exhibit I WS five zeros 950 marked as MK
02:05:40 exhibit I WS five zeros 950 marked as MK 1 and that is a floor plan statement has 15 pages and if we go please to the 15th page we see that it's dated the 13th of
02:05:53 page we see that it's dated the 13th of July 2018 and signed with a statement of truth if I before I begin reading some parts of this statement again by way of
02:06:05 parts of this statement again by way of background explained that mr. Kassabian had lived in Greenville tower for eight years as of June 2017 he was living with
02:06:16 years as of June 2017 he was living with his aunt Rita tan carrion who had limited mobility due to long-standing health problems and she had lived in the flat for 15 years also living there at
02:06:29 flat for 15 years also living there at the time was mr. KassemG ins girlfriend and all three of them were present on the night of the fire I'd like to read some parts of the statement team which are mr. Kasim Jones
02:06:40 statement team which are mr. Kasim Jones account of that night and if I take it from page six please and paragraph 20 on
02:06:52 from page six please and paragraph 20 on the night of the fire my girlfriend Fung and I were watching a movie in the living room my aunt had already gone to bed
02:07:02 bed we heard fire sirens outside and I looked out the windows of the living room and then the kitchen and saw fire engines near the bottom of the tower and I realized that they were underneath us
02:07:14 I realized that they were underneath us we went back to what we were doing but not long afterwards we looked out again and saw there were more fire engines it was about one I think my girlfriend and
02:07:28 was about one I think my girlfriend and I started to get a little worried so we decided to look on the stairwell to see what was happening I opened the front door to the stairs and we stepped into the communal area outside my front door
02:07:40 the communal area outside my front door statement then continues we stood by the lifts I couldn't see anyone or hear anyone there was nothing I could already smell smoke though and there was this
02:07:51 smell smoke though and there was this dull humming sound Fung decided to open the door to the stairwell to look down the stairs she walked down the stairwell and walked down a few floors she came
02:08:02 and walked down a few floors she came back up to where I was standing and she said that she didn't hear anyone or see anyone except for a woman who was wearing a headscarf and was with her daughter she told me that they both
02:08:13 daughter she told me that they both looked worried my girlfriend told me that she'd asked the woman what was wrong and the woman said she was that she was scared because she could smell smoke and so she was evacuating Fung is
02:08:24 smoke and so she was evacuating Fung is convinced now that she went all the way down to the bottom of the stairs however I don't think she could have done as she was only gone for about 90 seconds went back inside the flat I felt more worried
02:08:38 back inside the flat I felt more worried I decided to look out of the window again I opened the window and really reached my head out to the living room it was difficult to see down even moreso
02:08:49 it was difficult to see down even moreso than it would have been before the refurbishment because of the cladding around the window as I looked down I realized that there was a glow coming from the building below and I could see
02:09:00 from the building below and I could see firefighters standing at the bottom of the tower
02:09:02 the tower I saw them direct water at the glow and then it looked like the glow exploded and that's when I felt the heat rising up the tower I realized immediately that
02:09:13 up the tower I realized immediately that we needed to leave the building and I said so to fall I told from that we had one minute to leave the tower the heat that came from outside was extremely hot it felt like a slap
02:09:25 it felt like a slap in the face from this moment I went into a kind of fight-or-flight mode after seeing the fire outside and feeling that heat I thought it was possible the fire could spread and reach our flat that's
02:09:38 could spread and reach our flat that's why I decided we had to leave I wanted to get out before it was too late I was worried about people using the stairwell at the same time and I was worried about
02:09:49 at the same time and I was worried about Rita getting down the stairs this was not like the fire in Grantville tower before I went and woke up Rita who was sleeping I told her that the tower was
02:10:01 sleeping I told her that the tower was on fire and that we had to leave she responded very quickly she jumped out of bed and was almost ready to leave when we reached the front door if I hadn't woken Rita up then I don't
02:10:13 if I hadn't woken Rita up then I don't think she would have woken up at all we had a smoke alarm in our flat but it didn't go off there was not enough smoke in our flat for it to go off three of us
02:10:24 in our flat for it to go off three of us left the flat within about a minute of deciding we had to get out I took with me only my front door keys my phone my wallet and my cigarettes I thought that
02:10:35 wallet and my cigarettes I thought that we would return that night but I thought it was going to be a long night until we did I picked up my laptop but then I decided against taking it as I thought
02:10:46 decided against taking it as I thought to myself where does it end in terms of what to take and what to leave I thought that it was best to leave immediately from that moment I was almost certain
02:10:57 from that moment I was almost certain that there was a good chance the fire could reach our floor and even if it didn't come inside the house it would have been terrifying I was hoping that it wouldn't come to that but I thought there was a good chance and that we have
02:11:08 there was a good chance and that we have to go when I first opened the door to the flat I couldn't see any smoke but I could smell it we could hear the vents making a noise I think that they were
02:11:19 making a noise I think that they were smoke vents and that and they were on making a lot of noise Rita still remembers that noise especially Fung said that we should knock on the neighbors doors but I said no because I
02:11:31 neighbors doors but I said no because I was worried that if everyone came now push Drita and then she might fall I thought that we needed to make sure that we were careful because there might have been pandemonium I wanted us to leave
02:11:43 been pandemonium I wanted us to leave quickly in order to go down the stairs carefully
02:11:46 carefully Rita moves very slowly I was expecting an integrated fire alarm to ring at any moment and that everyone would come rushing out down the stairs if someone
02:11:57 rushing out down the stairs if someone shoved Rita and she fell then she might not be able to walk again also on the other hand I didn't think that the entire building would actually go ablaze and so I didn't want to worry people at the time if it was for nothing
02:12:09 the time if it was for nothing I thought it was best to get out quickly just in case the worst happened we lived on the 17th floor and I thought that to get down all of those stairs and to move past the floor which was on fire would
02:12:21 past the floor which was on fire would be very risky and we needed to leave as soon as possible whilst the exit was still an option for us Rita said to me what about Khadijah and so I said that I
02:12:32 what about Khadijah and so I said that I would go and get her Khadijah lived on the 17th floor with her husband Fong and Rita started going down the stairs I hit on Khadijah front door as hard as I could and shouted I knocked very loudly
02:12:45 could and shouted I knocked very loudly and shouted at the top of my voice everyone on the floor would have heard me after a while Khadija opened the door and I said in no uncertain terms there is a fire you must leave right now she
02:12:59 is a fire you must leave right now she turned around to go and get her husband the door closed and that was the last time I saw her if I move to the next paragraph please I started to go down the stairs
02:13:10 the stairs I rarely used the stairs at night because the stairwell was very dirty and they were crack addicts and addicts there sometimes I did think about using the lift and I press the button to call it when we began to leave the lift was
02:13:22 it when we began to leave the lift was still working at about 110 all the lights were on I asked treaten from whether we should use it and they both said no when we came out and went to the
02:13:33 said no when we came out and went to the stairs the fire doors were shut but each of the fire doors were shut except the fourth floor by the time I started to go down the stairs Fung and Rita were two flights of stairs
02:13:44 flights of stairs yet that was because I had told them to go ahead and make a start when I was banging on Khadija store when we were leaving our house I could hear people upstairs crying Fung said that we should
02:13:57 upstairs crying Fung said that we should go back and get them but I said no he made a choice and we were running down the stairs I told Fung to hold on to reach his hand and help me to get Rita out of the tower I knew that if we were separated from
02:14:09 I knew that if we were separated from one another then we might not find each other again if we had gone back then it would have been difficult to get Rita out on the seventeenth floor there was
02:14:21 out on the seventeenth floor there was no visible smoke at around the 14th floor in the stairwell the smoke started it was white and it was getting stronger and thicker as we went further down we
02:14:32 and thicker as we went further down we were walking into it and I knew that it was going to get stronger and that it would continue getting worse the further we went I was worried that I was taking the two of them to their death I didn't
02:14:43 the two of them to their death I didn't know if there was a way out Rita was going slowly one step two steps at a time she was holding the rails on one side and on to thumb on the other on
02:14:54 one side and on to thumb on the other on about the 8th floor Rita started coughing as we progress the smoke got thicker still on the fourth floor the smoke was even thicker and
02:15:05 floor the smoke was even thicker and grayer still it was not so thick that you couldn't see through it but it was a complete mist as we were going down we could hear people when we left it was still quiet but when we got to about the
02:15:17 still quiet but when we got to about the 14th floor we could already start to hear people screaming fire stairwell was not yet busy I think people were packing bags and stuff I think that ever every
02:15:28 bags and stuff I think that ever every stage I could still see the bottom of the stairs it smelled like a bomb fire by the 8th floor we were engulfed but it was still possible to see I remember once I was in Hyde Park and was
02:15:39 once I was in Hyde Park and was surrounded by a thick grey mist it was like that I'm sure I could have seen the ceiling had I looked up or the handrail at the 6th floor I saw a fireman coming
02:15:50 at the 6th floor I saw a fireman coming up the stairs they were getting a hose I can't remember if the hose was coming out of the fourth floor or going into the fourth floor we carried on down I saw that they'd left the door open on the
02:16:02 that they'd left the door open on the fourth floor and that was where the smoke was coming from the hose was stopping the door from completely shutting when I saw them I said is there a way out they didn't have oxygen masks
02:16:13 a way out they didn't have oxygen masks they were wearing protective clothes clothing but no oxygen masks I thought that was odd a firefighter said yes and told Rita to be calm Fung said later that he looked
02:16:25 be calm Fung said later that he looked at us as though we were being silly or dramatic we carried on down the stairs and at the bottom there was a lady who is telling people to use one door rather than the other to shield people from
02:16:36 than the other to shield people from falling cladding the woman who said this was Florentina who's the daughter of Michael and Elizabeth who live in the tower on the sixth floor was the only time I heard
02:16:47 sixth floor was the only time I heard any kind of alarm it was a normal smoke alarm that was on the fourth floor we heard it properly when we were on the fourth floor we saw a Filipino guy
02:16:58 fourth floor we saw a Filipino guy coming down the stairs he lived on the 17th floor I think he must have heard me knocking on car DJ's door he was following us on the stairs and was a couple of floors behind us also behind
02:17:09 couple of floors behind us also behind us also was an older man who was black and was walking slowly behind Rita I can't describe what he looked like beyond this the lights were working on
02:17:20 beyond this the lights were working on the stairs while we were there there were no blocks on the landing or anything stairway was very dirty it was really very disgusting when I went in there in the past I would try to touch nothing there were no rubbish sacks it
02:17:32 nothing there were no rubbish sacks it was clear but not clean on the W floor the first floor we went the wrong way at the bottom we thought that we could get out into grenfell walk there was a door
02:17:45 out into grenfell walk there was a door that leads directly out that way but the door had been closed for a long time months or maybe even a year I thought at the time that the door may have been open because I saw a hose coming from that way and I saw a firefighter come
02:17:57 that way and I saw a firefighter come from the direction of the door the door was shut though there were three people all saw us also that I saw on the W floor I think there was one firefighter
02:18:08 floor I think there was one firefighter doing things but I couldn't see any water it seemed like they were moving the hose between floors although I couldn't see the water I think the hoses were swollen and I think that was because there was water coming through
02:18:20 because there was water coming through Rita remembers tripping on the hose when we got to the ground floor Rita was coughing we left the tower through the main entrance on our way out of the
02:18:32 main entrance on our way out of the building we saw a woman whose face was covered in soot she was frantic and screaming it looked like she'd faced the fire there were people who were trying to hold her back from going back back
02:18:43 to hold her back from going back back inside its chairman if I stopped for there if I could then go to the next statement thank you very much yes and
02:18:55 statement thank you very much yes and that is the statement of Rita tan carrion flat one four one four seventeen exit time of one twenty six the reference is iws five zeros four three
02:19:08 reference is iws five zeros four three four there are no exhibits accompanying the statement it is a nine page statement in which we go to the ninth page please statement is signed and with
02:19:22 page please statement is signed and with a statement of truth and dated the 24th of May 2018 as will be clear from the previous statements chairman mr. tang carry on was the art of Miss Rob SEM
02:19:35 carry on was the art of Miss Rob SEM Jian whom she refers to in her statement as Robbie and she says in the statement that on the night of the fire she went to bed at around 10:30 that night and if
02:19:48 to bed at around 10:30 that night and if I pick it up please from paragraph 12 on page three I was sleeping when suddenly Robbie came into my bedroom and woke me
02:20:01 Robbie came into my bedroom and woke me up
02:20:01 up he said aunty wake up we have one minute to leave the flat because the whole buildings on fire Robbie's very clear minded and practical about things
02:20:12 about things I knew immediately that he was serious and that we were in danger straightaway I jumped from the bed this is a very bad thing for me to do because of my back problems I knew that I should not make
02:20:24 problems I knew that I should not make any sudden movements but the urgency of the situation meant that I had to do this Robbie has said he's never seen me move so quickly in my life since then my
02:20:35 move so quickly in my life since then my back problems have worsened I was scared and knew we were in dangerous situation but I did not think that we were not going to come back to the flat but I'd realized that would I would had
02:20:46 but I'd realized that would I would had have I would at least have bought my handbag and would have opened the Wardrobe and taken out my jewelry Robbie's very decisive he was clear
02:20:57 Robbie's very decisive he was clear minded I think that saved us Robbie saved my life I'd taken various tablets that evening and these made me sleep very deeply if Robbie had not woken me up then I would never have
02:21:08 woken me up then I would never have woken up myself there was no smoke or sign of danger inside our flat inside the flat everything was still completely normal at that stage in the flat there
02:21:21 normal at that stage in the flat there was no sign of fire I could not smell any burning or see any smoke as soon as we walked out of the front thought to our flat I remember looking at the lifts and saw that both were out of order and
02:21:33 and saw that both were out of order and in the hallway smoke was coming from every direction that night Robbie's girlfriend Fung was also staying with us there was no sign of the fire inside our
02:21:45 there was no sign of the fire inside our flat before we left but as soon as I walked out of our front door into the lift area I could immediately smell the fire from every corner when we opened the flat door the smoke was there we
02:21:56 the flat door the smoke was there we could smell it the smoke smelled like burning plastic but it was not hot there was no alarm going off I walked towards the stairs on the way out of my flat I
02:22:09 the stairs on the way out of my flat I said to Robbie that we should knock on the door to our neighbors and friends flats Khadija and Subba I went to Khadija strat and rang the bell but she didn't answer Robbie told me that I should go down the
02:22:21 Robbie told me that I should go down the stairs I started to walk towards the stairs with foam and Robbie started to bang on the door to flat 143 which was Khadija splat Khadija opened the door and Robbie told
02:22:32 Khadija opened the door and Robbie told her that there was a fire and that they should leave when Robbie did that I think he also banged on the door two flat one for two and then turned and joined us Khadija went back into her flat to wake Sabah with my walking
02:22:45 flat to wake Sabah with my walking problems it would have been easier to take the left when I looked both of them were out of service while Robbie was banging on the doors to warn people I crossed the landing area from my flat and started
02:22:56 landing area from my flat and started going down the stairs were full my 14 years in the tower I had only ever used the stairs once before it was on an occasion when there was no lift working
02:23:07 occasion when there was no lift working it's hard for me to walk because my back is bad and I have spinal problems the walk downstairs was slow and exhausting it took me a long time to walk down Phung stood near me the whole time
02:23:19 Phung stood near me the whole time supporting me as I walked Robbie caught up with us quite quickly and walked behind we had only come down about 10 stairs by the time he reached
02:23:30 about 10 stairs by the time he reached us as we started to come down the smoke was getting thicker and thicker on the stairs the smoke was white and gray as if it was foggy it smelt of burning
02:23:41 if it was foggy it smelt of burning plastic as in the hallway as we came down the stairs we didn't hear any fire alarms the only thing I could hear was a low humming noise I have no idea what was causing it and had never heard it
02:23:53 was causing it and had never heard it before getting out of the tower was terrifying the smoke was on the stairs from the moment we entered the stairway and was always there as we continued
02:24:04 and was always there as we continued walking down the stairs further down we went the more smoke there was but we were always able to see where we were going there was lighting the hot
02:24:15 going there was lighting the hot lightning the halt lighting the whole way down I found it hard to walk and needed support to get down the smoke continued to get worse I was in pain and my legs were hurting but I knew I had to
02:24:27 my legs were hurting but I knew I had to get out at the beginning it was fine to see through the smoke but later as we went further down it became more and more hazy
02:24:37 more hazy when we were on the sixth floor the smoke started increasing a lot it was a gray white color and I remember Robi cried out to me don't breathe auntie cover your mouth I
02:24:48 don't breathe auntie cover your mouth I was really anxious my breathing was getting more and more difficult I was breathing very quickly but only shallow breaths on the way down fun was always
02:25:00 breaths on the way down fun was always next to me and Robbie was behind in the pictures that the police have shown us Robbie was behind me and I was holding onto Phung on one side and the handrail on the other it was only when we reached
02:25:13 on the other it was only when we reached the fourth floor that I saw a firefighter with a hose we had to step over the hose to carry on down the stairs I remember Robbie told the firemen were already here and I know my way so he carried on without further
02:25:25 way so he carried on without further help it is good that the firefighter didn't tell us to go back as I believe others were told to go back upstairs but even if we'd been told to leave we would not have gone back I know that I
02:25:38 would not have gone back I know that I saw the fire hose when we were on at the fourth floor because after that below that style of the building changes there were three floors further down to go and it was hard to walk on the fourth floor
02:25:51 it was hard to walk on the fourth floor I also saw a lady that I knew from the building that I always saw she was standing in front of one of the doors I don't remember seeing anyone else on the stairs on the way down and it was only
02:26:02 stairs on the way down and it was only me Robbie and Fung walking down the stairs all the way down I was scared of falling especially because of my back I was so anxious coming down it was
02:26:13 was so anxious coming down it was terrifying at the bottom of the stairs there were two exit doors I don't remember which one we came out of I just remember Robbie guiding me about which
02:26:25 remember Robbie guiding me about which one to use we left the building at around 1:20 a.m. and that's where I'll start gentleman thank you
02:26:37 our next statement to be read in is that of Corrin Simon Simone Jones the
02:26:48 of Corrin Simon Simone Jones the statement references iws six zeros three three it is accompanied by three state exhibits which are firstly I WS six
02:27:02 exhibits which are firstly I WS six zeros three five and these are marked floor plans and then we don't need to put these up but it's I WS six zeros
02:27:13 put these up but it's I WS six zeros three two and I WS six zeros three four which are photographs taken on the night and outside the tower if we go please to the last page of this statement of the
02:27:26 the last page of this statement of the same images page 14 statement is signed and dated the 10th of April 2018 and on the preceding page there is a statement
02:27:38 the preceding page there is a statement of truth if I summarize first Miss Jones lived in flat 145 which was on the 17th floor with her partner Jason Miller and
02:27:51 floor with her partner Jason Miller and their two sons the family moved into Granville tower in July 2016 on the night of the fire mr. Miller was away from home but Miss Jones was there at
02:28:06 from home but Miss Jones was there at home with with their boys and the boys went to bed around 8:30 8 p.m. and Miss Jones at about midnight and if I pick it
02:28:18 Jones at about midnight and if I pick it up please then at page 5 and paragraph if we have from paragraph 16 on page 5 please that night Jason was staying with
02:28:32 please that night Jason was staying with his mum I sent him a text message to say don't forget I'll be leaving the house at 8:30 a.m. and to remind him to take the boys to school I fell asleep at around midnight before I saw his reply
02:28:45 around midnight before I saw his reply the next thing I remember is waking up to the smell of burning plastic in that bedroom I usually wake up during the night and I often feel uneasy I used to worry about the building collapsing
02:28:57 worry about the building collapsing after watching the twin towers collapse on 911 live on the news the towers reminded me of our building that night I can't say what woke me up but I thought it smelled like someone was burning
02:29:08 it smelled like someone was burning plastic from my room it was very strong my bedroom door was open and I lifted my head to look out into the corridor to see if everything was okay everything
02:29:21 see if everything was okay everything seemed alright I was awake for any seconds I think before going back to sleep I don't know what time this was I'm also not sure how much later it was it could have been 5-10 minutes but I
02:29:33 it could have been 5-10 minutes but I woke up to my son coming into my room he walked around to the window side of the bed where I slept and said mum I think there's a fire I didn't say anything I got straight up and went to the window
02:29:45 I got straight up and went to the window that has blinds and pulled them back on the right-hand side of the building I could see bright lights and glowing embers flying past and also black soot stroke dust they were relatively small
02:29:58 stroke dust they were relatively small particles I would say the light was orange in color it looked like lights from a fire I could not hear anything at this point smell of intense burning plastic
02:30:10 smell of intense burning plastic continued it had not got any worse it was the same smell as earlier at this point I hadn't turned on any lights in my bedroom in my head I was thinking
02:30:24 my bedroom in my head I was thinking this has to be a fire my worst nightmare is actually coming to life and I'm on the 17th floor right now I stood at the window for two to three seconds enough to confirm that I was seeing something
02:30:35 to confirm that I was seeing something abnormal I was scared worried and confused to what exactly was going on but I knew one thing and that was to escape the building as quickly as
02:30:46 was to escape the building as quickly as possible I did not want to panic my son I'll show him how I was really feeling I had to be strong so he would not panic I said to
02:30:57 said to the name of Miss Jones her son is then given we're leaving wake up your brother get some clothes on I went to my bedroom put on some trousers skinny jeans they
02:31:09 put on some trousers skinny jeans they were inside out I struggled to put them on I saw my work clothes hanging up for the next day so I put them on instead I then went out of my bedroom to the boy's room which is next to mine I went to
02:31:22 room which is next to mine I went to their room there's now the reference to Miss Jones's other son was standing by the Wardrobe nearer the door getting closed to put on and she then refers to her first son who was doing the same by
02:31:33 her first son who was doing the same by his wardrobe on the other side of the room I told him to hurry up and we walked past my room to the shoe rack by the front door we put on our shoes and as we were doing this I could hear
02:31:44 as we were doing this I could hear voices outside which sounded like other residents the tone sounded panicked people spoke quickly and loudly and in a higher pitch communal area was normally very quiet especially at night I didn't
02:31:57 very quiet especially at night I didn't recognize these voices and I didn't catch what they were saying the boys put on their school shoes I opened the cupboard next to the master bedroom there's a coat rack on the back of the door and so I grabbed some jackets which
02:32:09 door and so I grabbed some jackets which were hanging up then I opened the front door and a plume of smoke came into the flat and set off the fire alarm in the hallway opposite the front door this is the first time I hear the alarm when
02:32:24 the first time I hear the alarm when this happened I thought fire and I told the children to run to the fire exit where the stairs are because I thought that was the safest place and I was now concerned as I came out the front door I
02:32:35 concerned as I came out the front door I saw my neighbor standing outside his front door of flat warm for six his name is Castro I say he is in his 50s I did not say anything to him I saw
02:32:47 50s I did not say anything to him I saw black smoke coming from the top of his door which I believe was coming out of his flat into the communal area I did not see smoke coming from anywhere else in the communal area when I first came out my flat there was not that much
02:32:59 out my flat there was not that much smoke but I could see it moving along the top of the ceiling there was not that much height between the top of his door and the ceiling it was very thick dense black smoke I remember breathing it in and thinking I
02:33:12 remember breathing it in and thinking I would not be able to breathe this in for much longer it felt like there were particles in the smoke if that smells like normal smoke not like burning plastic as such I ran back into my flat
02:33:25 plastic as such I ran back into my flat and got my handbag from next to the sofa in the front room not sure if I left my front door open children had already gone through the fire door to the stairwell this took me
02:33:36 fire door to the stairwell this took me about four seconds maximum when I returned to the communal area I can only describe a massive difference from the time I first opened my door the smoke had quadruple and had covered most of
02:33:47 had quadruple and had covered most of the ceiling I was now just above my head I am five four four it reminded me of smoke machines on stage the area had become much darker at this point there
02:33:58 become much darker at this point there were normal lights on but it was darker due to the smoke I came out of my flat across the communal area to the stairwell opened the fire door and the boys were waiting for me there I do not
02:34:10 boys were waiting for me there I do not recall seeing smoke on the stairs I could smell burning plastic on the stairwell and the lights were on in the stair area as I came onto the landing I remember seeing some people standing in
02:34:21 remember seeing some people standing in the middle of the stairs on the flight going up I would say maybe four people were standing there Muslim women at least one wearing a hijab I said where's the fire where's the fire no one
02:34:33 the fire where's the fire no one answered me at this point there seemed to be a lot of confusion people were coming past me as I was on the landing there were maybe 10 12 people going up the stairs and some people were going
02:34:44 the stairs and some people were going down it seemed that the people going up the stairs all knew each other and was speaking to the group of women still standing on the stairs some people were just staying on the landing area talking I was pausing there
02:34:57 landing area talking I was pausing there for a second trying to get a better idea of what was going on so I could decide what to do it's probably only for about five seconds it didn't seem that anyone had answers everyone seemed panic and
02:35:09 had answers everyone seemed panic and didn't know what to do or where to go the people that were going upstairs were questioning and panicking the people who were standing on the stairs were deciding whether to go up or down
02:35:20 deciding whether to go up or down I can't say I recognized anyone I didn't understand what people were saying they were speaking their own language from their body language and tone I could tell they were confused and not sure where to go
02:35:31 where to go nobody was shouting but everyone had raised voices I can't remember if anyone was crying at this point I thought no one is listening to me I'm going down
02:35:43 one is listening to me I'm going down the stairs I said to the boys let's go downstairs now I had five or six jackets in my hand including my sister's big winter jacket and my handbag in the same hand quite a large bag has wearing my
02:35:56 hand quite a large bag has wearing my work clothes and black trainers and a pink headscarf that I wear to evening my youngest son was wearing shorts and a vest put his top on yet he had one shoe on both boys were in front of me and my
02:36:09 on both boys were in front of me and my neighbor Castro was also ahead of us as we went down the stairs there was no one else going down at the same time as us though two flights of stairs per floor it was bright in the stairwell the walls
02:36:21 it was bright in the stairwell the walls were white I don't remember seeing any smoke the stair area smelt strongly of plastic as I went down the stairs I was thinking I don't want to blackout and I told the children to cover their noses
02:36:33 told the children to cover their noses with their tops at each floor we didn't stop we just kept going down I don't think anyone overtook us we were going very fast running down the stairs sometimes two at a time I'm used to
02:36:45 sometimes two at a time I'm used to doing this with the boys because the lifts are often out of order so we would often run down the stairs when going to school we used to try and beat the lift but halfway down I picked up my youngest son and carried him too fast fast in the
02:36:58 son and carried him too fast fast in the pace
02:37:00 pace it was quite fluid as we went down the stairs there was nothing in the way to stop us between the 5th and the 3rd floor
02:37:07 floor I saw more people I saw an old man middle-eastern late 60s early 70s I think he was wearing a jacket trousers who was struggling with walking and was holding onto the handrail and a younger
02:37:19 holding onto the handrail and a younger man late thirties light-colored skin was supporting the old man's other side helping him go down the stairs between these floors it was a lot busier apart from the initial group of people
02:37:31 from the initial group of people didn't see anyone else going up the stairs in the lower area it was much more congested on the stairs I didn't see any firefighters on the stairs and I don't remember hearing any fire alarms
02:37:42 don't remember hearing any fire alarms at that time the only fire alarms that would have been going off were in people's flats there were no alarms in the communal areas or on the stairs when we got to the mezzanine area you have to
02:37:55 we got to the mezzanine area you have to walk along the landing to go down the stairs you can't get out from the mezzanine area and have to go down two flights of stairs to get to the ground floor there were more people but we're still able to move at the same pace I
02:38:06 still able to move at the same pace I don't remember seeing anyone and I can't remember where our neighbor went the boys were in front of me and there's a reference to the name of one son was at the front and I was still carrying and
02:38:17 the front and I was still carrying and this is reference to miss Jones's second son and she then says that she put him down as we got to the mezzanine area and got out my phone to try and call Jason I couldn't think straight and couldn't
02:38:28 couldn't think straight and couldn't find his number so I didn't manage to call him once you get to the landing area of the mezzanine you can see outside because there are large glass windows this was the first time I saw
02:38:39 windows this was the first time I saw flames outside on the grass I saw fire covering the grass area it looked like someone had made a bomb fire the flames were about six foot high and covered the whole area I didn't see any fire in the
02:38:51 whole area I didn't see any fire in the actual building at this point there was no fire inside the mezzanine area I was very confused I thought that it was my neighbor's house that was on fire at first then when we saw with them when we
02:39:03 first then when we saw with them when we were in emergency exit I still didn't know what was happening when I saw the fire on the grass I realized that bigger than just my floor we then made our way to the ground floor just as you come
02:39:15 to the ground floor just as you come down the last flight of stairs on the right-hand side there is a fire exit door but because I see fire in the grass area outside the fire exit I realized I couldn't exit the building from that point we headed towards the main
02:39:27 point we headed towards the main entrance through glass doors into the lobby we saw about 10 firefighters who were in line heading straight across the lobby for the stairs this is the first time I had seen any emergency workers someone told him to stop once they saw
02:39:39 someone told him to stop once they saw us to let us through the door they were wearing full gear with helmets I can't remember if they were wearing masks they looked equipped to put out a fire we went straight out of the main entrance and as we came out of the main
02:39:51 entrance and as we came out of the main entrance we turned left and mr. chairman I'm going to pause there in terms of Miss Jones account of a knife but I would like to just draw attention to and eventually describes a misstatement
02:40:02 eventually describes a misstatement which happened shortly before the fire might take you back please to page 2 of the statement yes and paragraph 7 on
02:40:15 the statement yes and paragraph 7 on Saturday 10th of June 2017 two firefighters came to my flat to carry out a fire safety check they said they were having a fire safety day and were going around knocking on doors to check
02:40:26 going around knocking on doors to check people's alarms I didn't know about the inspection prior to them arriving they press the button on both our fire alarms to check they were working I I was pleased they were there as I had a lot
02:40:37 pleased they were there as I had a lot of questions I have concerns about living so high up on the 17th floor I was worried about our front doors it didn't automatically closed I wanted to know why there wasn't an automatic shot on the door and I also asked whether the
02:40:49 on the door and I also asked whether the doors in our flat were fire resistance they reassured me that they did not need to automatically closed it only depends on the material the doors were made from he tested the doors by banging on them
02:41:01 he tested the doors by banging on them and told me that the front door and the doors to the master bedroom the children's room the kitchen and living room which had double sliding doors with glass were all fire resistant and would hold for thirty minutes only
02:41:13 and would hold for thirty minutes only the toilet and bathroom doors were not resistance I did not ask about the storage cupboards there was a one inch gap at the bottom of all the doors but the rest of the frame fit properly the
02:41:25 the rest of the frame fit properly the fire officer said if there was ever a fire stay put don't leave your flat we will always come to you they also said to put a wet towel at the bottom of the door the entire flat had a laminated
02:41:37 door the entire flat had a laminated floor I had to sign to say they had come to the house and completed a fire safety check I was given a copy but due to the events of Wednesday 14th June I no longer have it there was no information
02:41:50 longer have it there was no information about evacuation he said in the event of a fire stay put the doors will hold for half an hour and somebody will come and rescue you I'm on the 17th floor so I would not
02:42:02 I'm on the 17th floor so I would not stay put
02:42:03 stay put I'd rather be on the ground floor where I can assess the situation for myself I'm afraid of heights and never wanted to live on the 17th floor this occasion was the only time that we'd been told anything about what to do in case of
02:42:14 anything about what to do in case of fire in the building they didn't even have signs up when we first moved in this came three or four months after we moved into the property I remember seeing a small sign about fires by the lifts it said in the event of a fire
02:42:27 lifts it said in the event of a fire stay put
02:42:28 stay put call 999 don't use the lift if your house was on fire closed doors and leave the building via stairs I first noticed this sign around autumn/winter 2016 and
02:42:41 this sign around autumn/winter 2016 and that's where I'll end with that statement if I may thank you very much our last statement Shama for this morning is the inquiry witness statement of Jason Miller who lived as we've heard
02:42:53 of Jason Miller who lived as we've heard with his partner Miss Jones in flat 145 on the 17th floor the statement is at iws five zeros four nine five there are
02:43:06 iws five zeros four nine five there are no exhibits accompanying it but if we go to the last page page six it has statement of truth is signed and is dated the 8th of May 2018 mr. Miller
02:43:20 is dated the 8th of May 2018 mr. Miller as you will have heard from the reading of Miss Jones a statement was not there on the night of the fire he's staying at his mother's but he was woken up by a call from Miss Jones and then drove to
02:43:31 call from Miss Jones and then drove to the tower to help her and his children and enroute he called her and learnt that she had left the tower and had then traveled to her mother's home I just
02:43:42 traveled to her mother's home I just want to just put I'll read just three paragraphs all of the statement however
02:43:54 paragraphs all of the statement however and if we go back to the first page in paragraph 3 mm-hmm I had not been in the building previously where there had been a fire I remember at the lifts on our floor on the walls outside of each Lee
02:44:06 floor on the walls outside of each Lee door their instructions about what to do if there was a fire in your flat these signs were not there when we first arrived it said if there is a fire in the building remain in your flat and call 999 from there there's no mention
02:44:18 call 999 from there there's no mention of evacuating the building unless the fires in your flat I remember looking at the sign while waiting for the lift to arrive one day I was with my family and clearly remember saying to them if there
02:44:29 clearly remember saying to them if there was to be a fire we would leave the building and ask questions later it's quite late into the tenancy that we actually noticed the sign it appeared out of the blue so we noticed it first
02:44:40 out of the blue so we noticed it first when it first appeared there was another sign on the door to the stairs but I can't remember what it said if I could just jump a little forward just to paragraphs five and six at the statement
02:44:52 paragraphs five and six at the statement and paragraph five mr. Miller says I was in the flat when it was visited by an inspector from the fire brigade who was wearing a polo shirt with the fire brigade logo saying he was doing a check
02:45:03 brigade logo saying he was doing a check this was on 10th June 2017 it was nice we were a short given the concerns Curran Rea expressed in relation to the fire doors and the front door closing mechanism not being
02:45:14 door closing mechanism not being installed we had never had a fire inspection before he checked the fire alarm to check that it worked it was mainly current talking to him but I listened to his answers I didn't hear conversation about the
02:45:25 I didn't hear conversation about the front door because I was in the front room afterwards we understood that if there was a fire the bedroom and front doors would hold for 30 minutes there was a clearance underneath all of
02:45:36 there was a clearance underneath all of the bedroom doors I could slide my fingers and Knuckles under it that's all I wish to read from mr. Miller statement and that's the reading for the morning
02:45:49 and that's the reading for the morning mr. champion well mister thank you very much
02:45:52 much I think it's right that I should say that we're extremely grateful to all those who've made statements the fact that they haven't been called give evidence doesn't in any way diminish the
02:46:03 evidence doesn't in any way diminish the value of what they've said and they should understand statements will form part of the inquiry record and part of the evidence that the inquiry takes into consideration at the
02:46:14 inquiry takes into consideration at the end of the day thank you now our next witness I think is scheduled for two o'clock yes that's right yes so perhaps it would be
02:46:25 right yes so perhaps it would be convenient it's a little early but not not very early will will rise now and resume at 2 o'clock haven't slightly longer lunch oh thank you mr. Chen thank you two o'clock
02:46:36 you mr. Chen thank you two o'clock please