Testimony from Farhad Neda, a resident who survived the fire from flat 205 on the 23rd floor, describing his family's experience during the night of the fire.
00:00:03 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're getting here further evidence from people who were inside the tower at the time of the fire yes mr. litt good morning mr. chairman
00:00:17 yes mr. litt good morning mr. chairman my next witness is mr. Farhad Netta and can I please call mr. nadir
00:00:45 I swear by honor I swear by Allah that the evidence I shall give the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth thank you very
00:01:01 the truth the whole truth thank you very much
00:01:01 much sit sit down sure I can make yourself thank you yes good morning mr. Mehta
00:01:12 thank you yes good morning mr. Mehta good morning can i start by asking you please to give the chairman your full name my name is farad neder and i think your first name is Shekhar but you are known as Farhad yes that's correct
00:01:24 known as Farhad yes that's correct can I start by thanking you very much indeed for coming today to give evidence to the inquiry and assisting the chairman in his investigations we really appreciate it and it's enormous ly
00:01:36 appreciate it and it's enormous ly useful to us to have you here so thank you very much I appreciate that going through some of the events of the night may be difficult for you at times so at any stage that you want to break just
00:01:48 any stage that you want to break just say and we can take a break I'm going to ask questions in chunks of 45 minutes so at 45 minutes subject to the Chairman we we will stop and we can have a break okay thank you is that okay sure okay I
00:02:01 okay thank you is that okay sure okay I should just also say something else at times when you're answering it may be that I'm not it looks like I'm not listening to you because I'm not looking at you but I'm looking at my screen on
00:02:12 at you but I'm looking at my screen on my notes I am listening very hard to what you're telling us it's just that I have to keep following it on the screen so just so you understand no problem okay um can I start then by asking you
00:02:24 okay um can I start then by asking you please to look at your first statement which is iws Quinn tuple 0 8 8 6 is this page 1 of your first statement yes it is
00:02:37 page 1 of your first statement yes it is okay now if you go to the last page which is page 29 you can see a signature is that your signature yes and it's over
00:02:48 is that your signature yes and it's over the date 6th of June 2017 should that be 2018 yes I believe thank you
00:02:54 you and have you had an opportunity to read this statement recently yes I've gone through it you have and can you confirm that its contents are true yes thank you
00:03:07 that its contents are true yes thank you
00:03:07 there are no exhibits to this statement mr. chairman mr. Neda I think you've also produced a second witness statement to the inquiry date of the 16th of October 2018 two days ago and that is at
00:03:20 October 2018 two days ago and that is at I WS Quinn tuple 0 1 1 3 we can just have that up on the screen please
00:03:47 no that's that's not the right statement I'm afraid it's what one one three iws
00:04:00 I'm afraid it's what one one three iws Quinn tuple 0 1 1 3
00:04:13 now I think you've got all your statements in a bundle there if you said
00:04:27 no problem I produced a minute
00:04:36 well should we try 1 1 3 4 and grateful to mr. Friedman
00:04:45 what I'm saying floor
00:04:52 there we are one one three four thank you and can I ask you please to turn to page three of that statement is that
00:05:06 page three of that statement is that your signature yes it is above the date of the 16th of October 2018 that's grand have you had a chance to read this statement recently yes and can you confirm that its contents are true
00:05:17 confirm that its contents are true subject to some material we're going to look at shortly yes thank you now can I start then mr. Neda with some background your family home was flat 205 Grenville tower yes that's
00:05:31 was flat 205 Grenville tower yes that's right on the floor 23 of the building yes and is it right that you grew up there with your mother and father yes that's right and your father was Muhammad's a bear Neda
00:05:43 Muhammad's a bear Neda yes and in June 2017 can you tell us who lived in your flat with you so is my father my mother and I and were you in
00:05:58 father my mother and I and were you in good health at that time I was yes and were your parents in good health my father was healthy my mum suffers from muscular disease do you remember or
00:06:12 from muscular disease do you remember or dog did you know did you rent your did you rent the flat yes fruit a fruit a council from the council yes can I ask you please to be shown a meaty triple zero one two five nine three and
00:06:26 triple zero one two five nine three and go to page 12
00:06:43 now this is a layout of the fourth floor at Grenfell tower after the refurbishment which is repeated from floor four to floor 23 inclusive just so
00:06:56 floor four to floor 23 inclusive just so you know it's a standard plan and flat 205 would be flat five in the northwest corner of the tower is that right yes looking at this plan is this an accurate
00:07:09 looking at this plan is this an accurate representation of the layout of your flat at the time of the fire yeah there's just a slight difference by the entrance right there's a wall on the
00:07:21 the entrance right there's a wall on the plan which was a bit different can you just explain the difference I can show you yes by all means ooh dude we've got a red a red dot function that
00:07:34 we've got a red a red dot function that comes up I wonder whether Ralph you could just expand flat 5 or 205 for us so just to make it clearer thank you so
00:07:46 so just to make it clearer thank you so this was the entranceway this wall here wasn't didn't exist instead we had a wall going here so this was sort of large storage room I see okay so just for the transcript the the wall that
00:07:58 for the transcript the the wall that comes out from the the east wall by the front door transversely in an Eastern east-west direction wasn't there and it was replaced by a longer wall going
00:08:09 was replaced by a longer wall going south north yeah directly from the right-hand side of the door front door that is that right yes okay thank you very much can I then start with some
00:08:21 very much can I then start with some questions about fire safety awareness before we turn to the events of the night if you go please first of all to page 20 of your statement your first statement and look please at paragraph
00:08:36 statement and look please at paragraph 120 you say there recently not too long before the fire the TMO put up a sign by the lifts which advised that the lift
00:08:47 the lifts which advised that the lift should not be used during a fire and also confirmed that there was a stay put policy in the tower I think that the sign was on every floor of the power can I just show you first then a
00:09:00 power can I just show you first then a picture which is inq and then seven zeroes 93 is this the sign that you're
00:09:17 zeroes 93 is this the sign that you're referring to it looks pretty much like that's a sign yes okay and which lifts was this sign next to do you think as
00:09:30 was this sign next to do you think as far as I can remember it was to the left of on the left's by the left lift so closer to flat number 203 I see and
00:09:43 closer to flat number 203 I see and that's on your floor yes yes do you know what do you remember whether this sign was to be found anywhere else in the tower at the time of the fire I I hadn't
00:09:54 tower at the time of the fire I I hadn't noticed it I mean the only two floors that I would go to where the ground floor and the 23rd floor so I wouldn't be sure okay
00:10:05 be sure okay did you remember ever seeing a temporary piece of paper with fire safety advice on it stuck by the lifts on the ground floor no I don't remember okay how long
00:10:22 floor no I don't remember okay how long before the fire at Granville Tower so the night of the 13th 14th of June 2017 do you remember seeing this sign well it
00:10:35 do you remember seeing this sign well it it was put up after the refurbishments had finished so I would say it wasn't death before it was less than a year they would team up and was it there at
00:10:48 they would team up and was it there at the time of the fire do you remember yes
00:10:53 looking at the first part or top part of the sign that says fire action Grenville tower and then there's some words which
00:11:04 tower and then there's some words which aren't highlight it but it says there is a stay put quotes on quotes policy for residents unless the fire is in or affecting your flat at the time of the
00:11:16 affecting your flat at the time of the fire do you have any particular understanding of what that meant well I just from reading that I I would have thought not to leave off that did you
00:11:30 thought not to leave off that did you ever actually read the sign I do remember reading it yes okay apart from that notice do you remember any information other information from any
00:11:41 information other information from any organization being given to you about what you should do in the event of a fire in the block no not directly and in general terms is the
00:11:57 not directly and in general terms is the Neda as at June 2017 what was your understanding as to what you as a resident should do in the event of a fire in the tower
00:12:09 fire in the tower so I having read the sign I I thought it would be safe to stay inside out flat I
00:12:21 would be safe to stay inside out flat I mean we we always used to do fire drills at school and everything and we have to leave the building straight away but I thought that the sign would be a natural
00:12:37 it would i thought they had put a sign for a reason so might as well follow it right you said just a second ago in your
00:12:48 right you said just a second ago in your last answer i thought the sign would be inaccurate did you mean inaccurate or and i thought it would be what I feel
00:12:59 and i thought it would be what I feel would be a good policy to follow it would it was for sport fruit I didn't think they would put it up for no reason right thank you
00:13:13 now can I turn then to the night of the fire itself and can I start by asking you please to look at page three of your statement your first statement and go
00:13:27 statement your first statement and go please in that to paragraph 13 you say that I'm my mum and my dad had arrived
00:13:40 that I'm my mum and my dad had arrived home in the early hours of the morning on the 14th of June 2017 and visiting my aunt's house our two families had eaten together and then a paragraph 14 you say
00:13:54 together and then a paragraph 14 you say I thought we'd got home that approximately between 12:30 a.m. to 1:00 a.m. in the morning the CCTV image still image from the lobby entrance area on
00:14:05 image from the lobby entrance area on the morning of the fire shows that we've got to the entrance area at 1252 a.m. my image shows me entering the tower at 1251 a.m. and my mum entering 11 seconds later the 12:52 a.m. there's a further
00:14:17 later the 12:52 a.m. there's a further image of the three of us getting into the lift at 1252 a.m. we got back only two minutes before the fire started in flat 16 on the fourth floor just a
00:14:28 in flat 16 on the fourth floor just a few questions about that paragraph first when you when you first entered the tower did you come through the main entrance yes and while you were in the main entrance do you remember whether you heard
00:14:39 do you remember whether you heard anything no I didn't hear anything it was quiet it was late at night did you you didn't hear any noise of fans or vents
00:14:50 vents not immediately when we got in to the building okay do you remember smelling anything in particular at that point no and you then
00:15:04 particular at that point no and you then say at paragraph 15 it was a normal evening when we entered the tower and called a lift from the lobby area at the base we got into a lift and went straight up to our floor do you remember
00:15:15 straight up to our floor do you remember whether both lifts were working at that point yes they were they were and how do you know that both were working because
00:15:26 you know that both were working because we we were waiting in the lobby for the lift to arrive and the numbers were showing on both lifts usually if one of the lifts were out of order it would say lift out of service right where would
00:15:37 lift out of service right where would you say that on the little screen where it shows what floor lift is on I see and then you say it's 16 as soon as the lift
00:15:49 then you say it's 16 as soon as the lift doors opened on to our landing on the 23rd floor my mum and I both heard the vents stroked extractor fans in the landing area of our floor they were making a lot of noise this was not new
00:16:02 making a lot of noise this was not new and did not surprise us as it was something that had occurred before now before I we discussed that together in a bit more detail can I just ask you one
00:16:13 bit more detail can I just ask you one or two questions about the about your floor first can I ask the witness please be shown two pictures side by side which is BL a quadruple zero two five one
00:16:25 is BL a quadruple zero two five one three and two five one four
00:16:34 now I should just tell you these are photographs of the lobby the communal lobby on floor six and I wanted to ask you about what you can see at the far
00:16:46 you about what you can see at the far end on each side one is taken from one direction from the direction to the two them to the right of the lifts and the photograph on the right hand side is taken as you can see to the left of the
00:16:58 taken as you can see to the left of the lifts looking in the opposite direction and on each wall at the far end you can see what looked like vent coverings are those vent coverings vent entrances
00:17:09 those vent coverings vent entrances things that you had on your floor yes you did
00:17:14 you did and were they on both sides of the lobby on floor 23 yes so exactly like on our side it were they were up higher and then on the other side yes
00:17:26 then on the other side yes and in this photograph we can see a white detector on the ceiling did you have one of those on floor 23 in the lobby Zack you did did you know what that was I presumed it was a smoke alarm
00:17:38 that was I presumed it was a smoke alarm fire gong
00:17:40 fire gong a fire alarm yes did anybody ever explain to you what it was no now when you going back to paragraph 60 when you
00:17:51 you going back to paragraph 60 when you got out of the lift well while the when the lift doors opened you say you heard a noise do you remember whether the noise was coming from both sets of
00:18:03 noise was coming from both sets of ventilation entrances or shafts or anyone I I wouldn't be able to see right do you remember where the noise was loudest in the lobby well when when we
00:18:18 loudest in the lobby well when when we got out of the lift we went left towards our flat so I for me it was that side that's the sight I could hear the mouse yes do you go left and then left again
00:18:30 yes do you go left and then left again yes can you looking back on it now can you describe for us than not the sound you were hearing
00:18:40 so it was it sounded just like wind was going through the building so it was as if it was coming from the floors
00:18:52 if it was coming from the floors downstairs just all shooting up towards the 25 floor right and then every every few minutes you could hear the fans sort
00:19:04 few minutes you could hear the fans sort of closing so it had like I think it was a mechanical sound of the fans opening and closing but this didn't happen too
00:19:16 and closing but this didn't happen too much it was like every five minutes it would happen once right and could you hear that opening and closing sound from the lobby and from your flat or just a little bit you know from from the flat
00:19:28 little bit you know from from the flat as well from the flat as the opening and closing sound could you I'm sorry to ask you go into so much detail but can you just describe that opening and closing sequence sound for for us it was it
00:19:43 sequence sound for for us it was it sounded like a motor was turning I mean that's the best I could describe it and what would change when the vents closed
00:19:54 what would change when the vents closed went from close to open or went from open to closed in turn another sound what would change so the wind would stop coming up but that would only be very briefly and it would open again I see
00:20:07 briefly and it would open again I see okay did you observe did you see anything while you were in the lobby anything happening with the doors or shutters if you like to the to the vents
00:20:18 shutters if you like to the to the vents do they open close I I didn't play pay close attention to it because they had a sort of whites mesh which was going over it so you'd have to look put your eyes
00:20:31 it so you'd have to look put your eyes through the little holes to be able to see derp
00:20:33 see derp yes and while you were in the lobby did you notice any movement of air coming from one direction or another direction I didn't notice it okay still staying in
00:20:46 I didn't notice it okay still staying in the lobby for the moment do you remember how loud the sound was so it was loud enough for us to be able to hear it from our living room while our front door was
00:20:58 our living room while our front door was closed so our living room is probably the furthest point away that you could be from the fan inside within our flat yes so we could hear it from there right clearly and while in the lobby how loud
00:21:11 clearly and while in the lobby how loud was it in the lobby so you we would have to probably raise our voice quite a bit to be able to speak to each other if we were standing in the lobby okay so was
00:21:27 were standing in the lobby okay so was it as loud as a vacuum cleaner yeah I think yeah I think I think about as loud as vacuum cleaner yeah now in paragraph
00:21:42 as vacuum cleaner yeah now in paragraph 18 you save since the council had undertaken the refurbish what refurbishment work in the tower the air vents in the lift area of the landing
00:21:54 vents in the lift area of the landing would go off regularly they would start opening and closing loudly about once a month when they opened we would get huge gusts of wind going through the tower particularly onto our floor on one
00:22:06 particularly onto our floor on one particular occasion you could hear it from the outside the tower it seemed it often seemed to happen on a Friday and would not be sorted out until the following Monday when we got on to the 23rd floor they were going off loudly
00:22:17 23rd floor they were going off loudly and it would have been impossible for us to sleep with such a noise now I've read that all to you because again we yes there are one or two things in detail I want to discuss about it but in
00:22:28 want to discuss about it but in paragraph 18 you say there you got huge gusts of air through the tower where in the tower would you feel these gusts in in the lift lobby area would you feel
00:22:41 in the lift lobby area would you feel them anywhere else in the tower when this these vents were going off in this way no no you would just be able to hear it not feel it and you do you remember
00:22:52 it not feel it and you do you remember where these gusts that you've described would be coming from from the air vents I don't know where the source of it was but where it would end up would be in our lobby area
00:23:04 would end up would be in our lobby area of Frieda air vents on the night when you heard these this sound and these vents going off as you got out of the lift do you remember the same kind of gusts or feeling the gusts at that point
00:23:15 gusts or feeling the gusts at that point yeah so it's it was a little bit windy in in our lobby area right it was warmer I presumed because it was summer we were
00:23:31 I presumed because it was summer we were just getting the air from outside coming up and do you remember which vent in the lobby the gusts or wind that you're describing were coming for us it was the
00:23:43 describing were coming for us it was the ones on the left side too in between flat 206 and 205 so the ones nearest your flat yes that's the ones I felt it from and was the wind coming out towards
00:23:57 from and was the wind coming out towards you yes was it strong or weak or describe it wasn't it wasn't too strong just about to feel it yes
00:24:14 do you remember whether you were ever at any stage in the main ground floor lobby of the building at the same time as the vents were activating as you've described it I'm not sure because we
00:24:26 described it I'm not sure because we couldn't hit when we got in I couldn't hear it from downstairs and I couldn't feel anything so I'm not sure what about on other occasions when these vents were
00:24:37 on other occasions when these vents were going off there was one occasion which was a few months before the fire where
00:24:49 was a few months before the fire where the problem had got so loud that you could even hear the vents going off from outside the tower so this was at the point I believe when we were used we
00:25:01 point I believe when we were used we were still using the walkway as the entrance during the refurbishment and I don't know where the sound was coming from but you could just hear it clearly
00:25:12 from but you could just hear it clearly from outside the tower it went on for I think over 24 hours and during that 24-hour period do you remember whether you could feel
00:25:23 do you remember whether you could feel moving in in the main lobby of the building I can't remember in the main lobby but on our floor we could definitely feel it I think it was so
00:25:35 definitely feel it I think it was so strong that it would cause the doors to the stairwell to open and close a little bit very slightly it would move the doors
00:25:47 doors yet the doors that you would go into the stairwell with from okay do you remember being in the stairwell at any time during that for example that 24 hour
00:25:58 during that for example that 24 hour period you described no I don't remember do you remember being in the stairwell at any time when these vents were going off at any time prior to the fire no okay now you've said in paragraph 18 at
00:26:14 okay now you've said in paragraph 18 at the very top of page four that you would get these gusts of wind going through the tower and you say particularly onto our floor well you say particularly onto our floor do you mean that the noise and the wind that you are
00:26:25 the wind that you are air movement that you were experiencing with worse on your floor than other floors
00:26:29 floors I presume sir yes because we were at the top floor so it I couldn't see anywhere
00:26:40 top floor so it I couldn't see anywhere else that the fence would lead to from what I could see it would everything would just come up to our floor right
00:26:50 and did you ever make it have an opportunity to make a comparison between the noise and and air movement on your floor and the air and noise on lower
00:27:03 floor and the air and noise on lower floors no okay but on the night of the of the fire when you came out of the lift and stood in the lobby was the
00:27:14 lift and stood in the lobby was the noise that you heard coming from the air vents louder than you'd heard in the past no it was about the same as what we would usually get because it happened so
00:27:27 would usually get because it happened so often a the only time it was loud Oh was that 24-hour period with all while the refurbishments were going on but other than that it always used to be
00:27:38 than that it always used to be consistent and then you go on in paragraph 19 to say there had been previous occasions when the fans had gone off and I telephoned the tenants
00:27:50 gone off and I telephoned the tenants management organization the TMO to complain about the noise it would normally take the TMO a few days to come out to the 23rd floor to fix the problem first did they come to the 23rd floor to
00:28:03 first did they come to the 23rd floor to fix the problem or did they fix the problem elsewhere in the tower I think it was elsewhere all right yeah so when you say that they came out to the 23rd floor to fix the problem did they do anything on the 23rd floor I'm not sure
00:28:16 anything on the 23rd floor I'm not sure I would never see them working on on the problem I would just notice it being fixed so for example if I would leave in
00:28:28 fixed so for example if I would leave in the morning to go to work in the evening I would come and the noise would finish did you ever see them working on the problem no I never saw them working on it so you don't know where they worked
00:28:39 it so you don't know where they worked no okay
00:28:43 did you ever find out what they actually did to fix the problem no do you know who came from the TM Oh which person did
00:28:57 who came from the TM Oh which person did you ever get to the bottom did you ever discover yourself what was actually causing the venn system to start operating like that no we never really followed up we region we were
00:29:10 really followed up we region we were just happy to get noise stopped yeah do you remember whether other residents of the tower complained to the TMO about the vents operating in that way I'm not
00:29:23 the vents operating in that way I'm not sure but usually when whenever I would call the TMO they would say we've had we've had complaints about this before so I assumed that other people were
00:29:34 so I assumed that other people were complaining about it as well did you ever discuss this problem with any of your neighbors
00:29:50 now can I just go back a step to paragraph 18 in your statement where you've describing the previous occasions
00:30:08 where could you hear that when you say you could hear the noise outside the tower how far away from the tower could you hear that noise in on that let's say that 24-hour occasion when it was
00:30:20 that 24-hour occasion when it was particularly bad so while at that stage we were using the walkway to exit from the tower and we had a little staircase
00:30:31 the tower and we had a little staircase that we've come up from the ground floor to the walkway yeah you could hear it up to the staircase so yeah even when you
00:30:43 to the staircase so yeah even when you were at the staircase you would be able to hear it and when when you would go down you would go around the corner onto grant full road so walking walking
00:30:55 grant full road so walking walking towards the Sports Center so as you get to about the corner of Granville roads leading to the sports actually that's when you would start to stop hearing it
00:31:09 when you would start to stop hearing it I see yeah it's about 50 50 yards yeah these days away from the towers yeah do you remember whether the noise came this way do you remember there being an air
00:31:20 way do you remember there being an air vent or some kind of vent above the new main entrance to the tower I can't remember I I think there was there was
00:31:36 remember I I think there was there was something like three or four horizontal
00:31:43 lines which looked like air vents I'm not sure what they were I think it was located somewhere between the walkway
00:31:54 located somewhere between the walkway level and the third floor I can't remember exactly the position and did you ever notice a vent noise or fan noise coming from those horizontal
00:32:08 fan noise coming from those horizontal bars as you've described them only on that one occasion where the noise was very loud and you could hear it coming from that could you uh I think it was coming from there yeah that's that's the
00:32:19 coming from there yeah that's that's the only place that I could that seemed plausible now moving forward not very far but moving forward nonetheless you
00:32:34 you say paragraph 20 ma'am and I looked at one another and one of us said we will not be sleeping tonight referencing the noise we knew from previous experience how difficult it was to sleep
00:32:45 experience how difficult it was to sleep with the howling noise created by the ventilation system I'm interested in this howling
00:32:55 it is difficult to describe it I know but whether parts of the sound that you heard I mean it could you hear it in as it were different parts of sound yeah so sometimes it would be just gust of wind
00:33:09 sometimes it would be just gust of wind and then sometimes it would feel like as if it was trying to push through a small gap so that's when it would start making the howling and the whistling sort of
00:33:20 the howling and the whistling sort of just like wind and in in terms of the mechanical sound did you ever hear a high-pitched whine over the top of over
00:33:32 high-pitched whine over the top of over the top of the rest of the sound would you be able to describe noise alright
00:33:50 you be able to describe noise alright let me try a different one did you ever hear a low sort of bass or feel a low bass hum when the north wind events were working I'm not sure okay I'm going to
00:34:02 working I'm not sure okay I'm going to paragraph 21 you say I went into our flat
00:34:06 flat I got changed to get ready for bed my mum told me to call the TMO emergency number to let them know that the ventilator fan was going off in the landing area there is a 24-hour emergency number to call and I think you
00:34:21 emergency number to call and I think you then as you say in the next paragraph called the emergency number sometime between 1:00 a.m. and 1:15 I'm gonna come to that in a moment before we do can I ask you and when you got inside the flat did the volume of the sound
00:34:33 the flat did the volume of the sound that you'd heard outside in the lobby change so the volume decreased a bit but it was still loud enough to hear we could still hear it clearly from inside
00:34:44 could still hear it clearly from inside the flat you can hear from the outside so from the outside of the flat we could hear it loudly from the inside we could hear it clearly it was a lot it was the
00:34:57 hear it clearly it was a lot it was the volume was lower but we could hear it clearly okay and juniper way or your father was at
00:35:08 and juniper way or your father was at this stage I believe he was getting changed in his bedroom and then you say you made the call do you remember where you were when you made the call I so I
00:35:21 you were when you made the call I so I was walking around I saw from my bedroom to the living room and back I have a habit of pacing up and down when I'm on the phone yes I know what you mean and
00:35:34 the phone yes I know what you mean and we were inside the flat yes okay and was the door closed it was yes now we've got a transcript of the call and in fact
00:35:45 a transcript of the call and in fact we've also got the audio of the call so what I'd like to do is just play the audio of the call together with the transcript side by side to you just says to get you to confirm the conversation
00:35:57 to get you to confirm the conversation so is are you all right with me doing that yes sure okay
00:36:03 I don't know whether this needs a trigger warning mr. chairman it it might
00:36:15 trigger warning mr. chairman it it might do so I just ought to say it's not a call that it does not a call it relates well it's onion potentially inter and indirectly four years it's not there's no there's no fire and you can't hear or
00:36:28 no there's no fire and you can't hear or certainly can't see fire on this but I just should make it clear for those who are about to see this evidence that because it brings back the night people might find it distressing yes all right thank you but come while we're doing that can we just have on the screen the
00:36:40 that can we just have on the screen the transcript and then get ready the audio to play so there's the transcript and what we'll do is we'll just play the audio it's one minute and 17 seconds and it's timed at 1:10 a.m. on the 14th of
00:36:53 it's timed at 1:10 a.m. on the 14th of June 2017 so Ralph if we can just play the audio thank you Jack now there's a
00:37:16 the audio thank you Jack now there's a kind of electrical burning no okay we've got to eat and the I believe it's sitting with a fire and arms we've got fire and thanks for bringing this to our
00:37:41 fire and thanks for bringing this to our attention and we have had a call regarding the fire alarms have you heard them going off at all no we just got home okay yes Fire Brigade apparently
00:37:53 home okay yes Fire Brigade apparently they are on their way as well so you might see them
00:38:02 because of the firing on today's they saw them go down all at the same time so we will no that's alright I care now
00:38:20 we will no that's alright I care now having seen the transcript and also now having heard the the audio mr. Neda are you are you happy to accept that that's the conversation you had with our bkc
00:38:31 the conversation you had with our bkc yes about this about the vents yes okay and so does that does that mean that we have to read your first and second
00:38:43 have to read your first and second statements and your recollection of that call now differently having seen the transcript yes okay thank you and the audio yes now going back to your
00:38:58 audio yes now going back to your experience you said in that call and we heard it that you smelt an electrical burning don't we explore that a bit how
00:39:09 burning don't we explore that a bit how strong was that smell at that time so it began off quite light and it started getting stronger and from there but what I clearly remember is that it was
00:39:22 I clearly remember is that it was definitely coming from the vents the smell was yes the smell was definitely coming from the vents so that you could smell it while he was still in the lobby could you yes right and it was it was it
00:39:35 could you yes right and it was it was it in the air coming out of the vents yeah so you could smell it as soon as you come out of the lift you you would be able to smell it right do you remember at that point whether there was any smoke coming out of the vents not at
00:39:46 smoke coming out of the vents not at that point no okay right when you got into your flat could you still smell the electrical burning smell not to begin with we would have to open
00:39:58 not to begin with we would have to open the front door to be able to smell it but after a while it started the smell started to come inside so I remember at one point I was standing by
00:40:10 remember at one point I was standing by my bedroom door which is the second bedroom as you come into the building into the flat and I could smell it from there clearly really and how and it's
00:40:21 there clearly really and how and it's hard to guess but how long after the coal did you start smelling the electrical burning smell in the flat I would say about five to ten minutes
00:40:33 would say about five to ten minutes after the call when you were in the lobby before you went into your flat do you remember whether anybody else came out into the lobby from your neighbor's flats
00:40:44 flats no nobody okay you say in your statement at paragraph 23 and and indeed we've seen it in the transcript and on the
00:40:55 seen it in the transcript and on the call that you'd noticed that one of the lifts wasn't working and how had you notice that one of the lifts wasn't working so during the call I kept on
00:41:08 working so during the call I kept on going outside into the lobby area so at one point when I went out this was while I was on the phone to the TMO I realized
00:41:21 I was on the phone to the TMO I realized that on the lift one of the lifts the one on the left side closer to her free where it would usually say two numbers
00:41:32 where it would usually say two numbers it just said lift off or they're all lift under maintenance I can't remember which one and was that did you notice that the lift was out of order when you
00:41:43 that the lift was out of order when you came out of the lift or did you not look when we came out of the lift I I don't think I looked but when we were coming
00:41:55 think I looked but when we were coming up well while we were waiting for the lift which was literally about two minutes before we got up to our floor because lifts were quite fast both lifts were working they were
00:42:06 both lifts were working they were working as he said before okay so when you made the call over that one minute and 17 second period you were in and out of your flat how many times can you remember even roughly you went out onto
00:42:19 remember even roughly you went out onto the lobby and then went back into your hole and I think a minimum of three times right so quite a lot of pacing yep okay and were you holding the door open at that stage I think my mum was holding
00:42:31 at that stage I think my mum was holding the door open she stayed by the front door most of the time where as I was walking up and down right okay do you
00:42:47 walking up and down right okay do you happen to know which lifts had stopped working it was the one so if you're facing the lifts as if he would go into them it would be the lifts left one was
00:42:59 them it would be the lifts left one was that the one you came up in I can't remember now which one we came up here see okay
00:43:10 and after the call finished did you stay in your flat no I well we stayed in but every now and then I would keep on going
00:43:22 every now and then I would keep on going outside into the lobby area too I was sort of trying to investigate the smell myself like why was this smell
00:43:33 myself like why was this smell on our floor hmm because I at that point we couldn't see anything there was there was no smoke or anything it was just a smell this was that smell something that
00:43:44 smell this was that smell something that you experienced on that night for the first time yes on that night so the previous tower the previous occasions on which this the vent had started operating in the way you've described does that mean there was no smell but
00:43:56 does that mean there was no smell but you know there was no smell that's all now you say in paragraph 28 of your first statement on page 5
00:44:13 in fact I just like to get back to para 27 in fact you say in that paragraph that you went to bed after the call but the smell of burning was getting stronger and stronger and coming into
00:44:25 stronger and stronger and coming into our flat we looked at earlier on this morning at the first time at which you experienced the smell in the flat and I think you were saying you were standing in the hall is that right or were you
00:44:38 in the hall is that right or were you actually in bed by that time so I I was in bed my mom came into my room and said that the smell was getting worse yeah so
00:44:49 that the smell was getting worse yeah so I got out of bed and I got to do a little about the door of my room and that's from where I could smell so when
00:45:04 that's from where I could smell so when you go on to say our front door was closed and the smell had made its way into my bedroom at that point had the smell coming to your bedroom or was it still in the hall so it eventually did
00:45:15 still in the hall so it eventually did come into a bedroom I can't I can't remember exactly how long it took but it did eventually come in okay and you you
00:45:30 did eventually come in okay and you you continue to hear the vents from within the flat yes it did this did the sound that you were hearing ever stop at any point that you stayed in the flat on
00:45:41 point that you stayed in the flat on that night I think up until the point where we noticed there was a fire in the
00:45:52 where we noticed there was a fire in the building I was paying attention to it and I could hear it here then after that point I think I started worrying about other things so I stopped paying attention to the sound of the fence
00:46:05 attention to the sound of the fence okay
00:46:07 okay now mr. chairman we've had just over 45 minutes
00:46:11 minutes yeah and I'm going to change to a different topic mr. data is it convenient tater to you to take a break now yes okay we take a break now there
00:46:22 now yes okay we take a break now there mister never again suggest that we come back at 11 o'clock and please don't talk to anyone about your evidence whether out of the rule shops at all right okay
00:46:33 out of the rule shops at all right okay thank you we'd like to give the option do you look Artie thank you
00:46:48 but the level it Socrates
01:03:11 Thank You mr. chairman
01:03:27 [Music]
01:03:32 you're right mr. Miller yeah happy to carry on yes thank you thank you yes what's the move mister nether thank you for coming back to us and we're going to move on to the events of the night in a
01:03:43 move on to the events of the night in a bit more detail but before I do can I just ask you one of two questions just going back a little bit and when you first went into your flat having come up the lifts and gone through the lobby did
01:03:55 the lifts and gone through the lobby did you notice any sound of the vents coming from elsewhere other than from outside the flat did you you didn't hear any
01:04:09 the flat did you you didn't hear any sound coming from above you did you know
01:04:15 do you remember whether there was a on the 23rd floor there was a gate that would take you if it was open up to the roof yes there was okay
01:04:27 roof yes there was okay it was locked for quite a while it was not for quite a while do you remember when it was first locked it was quite it
01:04:38 when it was first locked it was quite it was many years so I think well over five years it had been locked the gates didn't exist when we moved in I think they were only put there to stop
01:04:50 they were only put there to stop homeless people sleeping in the stairwell right I see and who had the key to that gate Jim you know no it was it looked like one of those it looked
01:05:06 it looked like one of those it looked like a special key so it wasn't a normal key that would open the gate it would be one of those workman keys or one that five the fire brigade would usually have you know who had that had that key so if
01:05:18 you know who had that had that key so if you needed to open it you could no I presumed that before the refurbishment we had someone downstairs a concierge or security kind of person who would I
01:05:31 security kind of person who would I presumed he had access but after the refurbishment there was no one there so there was no no access there for us and do you know whether the
01:05:44 there for us and do you know whether the the gate was locked on the night of the fire it was locked did you track did you see it and look no I don't think I looked but every time
01:05:57 I don't think I looked but every time that I previous prior to the fire every time that I would see it was always locked I don't think I had ever seen it open since they fitted in right did you
01:06:09 open since they fitted in right did you ordered anybody else on that night to your knowledge try the gate to see if it was unlocked I'm not sure okay
01:06:22 can I then go back into your your statement and pick up the pick up this date the the evidence at the point at which you're in your flat in your bedroom and you're starting to smell the
01:06:35 bedroom and you're starting to smell the burning and when you smelt it was it the same smell of burning that you had first smelt outside the flat when you were there yes electrical smell yes and when
01:06:49 there yes electrical smell yes and when you say an electrical burning smell can you and it's difficult to describe these things but can you describe the smell so it's a say if you had like to open wires
01:07:01 it's a say if you had like to open wires and you would touch them and you go spark yes it would be that kind of smell right at that stage did you do you
01:07:12 right at that stage did you do you remember did you see any visible signs of smoke inside your flat at that point when you've come out of your bedroom and you can tell did you look out of the window at that point we did look out of
01:07:25 window at that point we did look out of the window yes we couldn't see anything you didn't see any visible signs of smoke outside the van out at that stage no now you then say if you go to page five of your statement paragraphs 29 and
01:07:37 five of your statement paragraphs 29 and 30 you say when we next looked out onto our landing we could see that both of the lifts were now out of order and we
01:07:48 the lifts were now out of order and we could also see that people were slowly coming out of their flats on to our landing something just started to seem not right how long do you think it's
01:08:03 not right how long do you think it's hard I know but how long after the call to our bkc that we've seen earlier this morning do you think that took place I think I don't think it was longer than 15 minutes after the call
01:08:18 and when you say we reach it we looked out onto our landing who is the way my
01:08:29 out onto our landing who is the way my mother and I okay
01:08:35 and when you you did that do you remember what the conditions in the lobby were like at that point it was still clear we could see clearly
01:08:46 still clear we could see clearly everything was the noise from the vents still going yes and we could you still smell the electrical burning smell yes was it stronger at that stage yeah it was getting stronger right could you
01:08:57 was getting stronger right could you still feel the air or breeze coming out of the vent I think so I can't be 100% sure but I think so okay do you remember
01:09:08 sure but I think so okay do you remember which neighbors came out onto your onto your landing I believe flat 206 had come out the younger lady that lived in it in
01:09:21 out the younger lady that lived in it in that flat she had come out I don't remember looking at faces of other people just because I was I had
01:09:34 other people just because I was I had that weird feeling so I don't know if it was that I was nervous and I was just pacing up and down trying to look to see what was going on so I didn't really
01:09:45 what was going on so I didn't really notice who else was there but I'm sure there was about at least two or three other people that they at least opened their doors did you speak to them no did
01:10:00 their doors did you speak to them no did they they in there were they in the night clothes or were they yes dressed to dress to leave no no everyone was in their night clothes they it seemed like they had just woken up I see okay and
01:10:14 they had just woken up I see okay and then you you go on to say in paragraph 30 I do not remember all the details but it got to a point where we decided to leave our flat and we wanted to make our
01:10:25 leave our flat and we wanted to make our way down the stairs
01:10:30 do you remember what what it was that prompted your decision to leave so I remember at one point my dad was looking
01:10:42 remember at one point my dad was looking out of the window and he he said that I think there's a fire downstairs we still couldn't see the fire but I
01:10:54 we still couldn't see the fire but I think my dad he must have leant out of the window to have a look and I just trusted what my dad said and I said I think best thing to do is leave now
01:11:05 think best thing to do is leave now right
01:11:06 right did you look out the window at that point I looked out but I didn't I couldn't see anything III didn't lean out to try and get a
01:11:18 III didn't lean out to try and get a better feel I just looked up to a standard he'd had with do you remember which window you looked at it was my dad's so my parents bedroom okay just
01:11:33 dad's so my parents bedroom okay just just say where we're clear I should have asked you this earlier on but can we just have the diagram of the flat back up please
01:11:41 up please which is M et triple zero one two five nine three page 12 and can you just identify for us which of the two bedrooms was yours so my bedroom is the
01:11:56 bedrooms was yours so my bedroom is the one closest to the lounge okay so the one halfway down the hall yes and which window do you remember looking out of just on that diagram so the window on the right-hand side the far right the
01:12:09 the right-hand side the far right the far right top corner yeah your parents bedroom yes okay looking north yes and did you you say you didn't see any signs of fire at that stage and no I didn't
01:12:20 of fire at that stage and no I didn't did you hear anything I I think I started hearing like people talking so
01:12:35 started hearing like people talking so it was like when you would open the window you could hear people outside you couldn't make out what they were saying but you could hear them and at the point
01:12:48 but you could hear them and at the point you made the decision to leave having having done say to do do you know how long that was after your conversation with our bkc we looked at earlier I think it was probably about
01:13:03 earlier I think it was probably about half an hour after now at page five paragraph 30 you go on to say we me my
01:13:19 paragraph 30 you go on to say we me my mum and my dad got dressed again and we were and we left the flat locked our front door and we even went into the staircase at that point we saw people from downstairs
01:13:30 from downstairs coming up towards us these people were our neighbors from lower floors now just taking this bit by bit when you went out
01:13:43 taking this bit by bit when you went out having made the decision to leave was anybody else out in the lobby at that time I can't remember could you still hear the air vents going I I stopped
01:13:56 hear the air vents going I I stopped paying attention at that point I wasn't paying attention to the noisy Soviet air vents do you remember what the the air conditions were like in the lobby at that time we could still see I think
01:14:10 that time we could still see I think there was a very little smoke that had started coming in from defense but we could still see clearly make everything out clearly
01:14:21 out clearly you said smoke coming in from the vents yes
01:14:26 yes duuude is that something you remember yes that's something I remember that's where the smoke that's how the smoke got onto our floor I remember that clearly because I I was looking so even after
01:14:46 because I I was looking so even after this occasion where we try to leave initially I kept on going out into the lobby and coming back in and I could see that's where the smoke was coming in
01:14:57 that's where the smoke was coming in slowly so say if you were coming out of the lift you would be in the middle of the lobby area you could see the smoke sort of filling in from the two sides and making its way towards the middle
01:15:09 and making its way towards the middle and that's something you could see clearly it didn't happen all at once it was a slow process but you could see it
01:15:21 was a slow process but you could see it slowly slowly filling up the lobby with smoke and you could see that's where it was coming from so this is at the point just to be absolutely clear this is at
01:15:34 just to be absolutely clear this is at the point when you leave the flat with your mum and dad ready to go down yeah about 30 minutes or so after the call with Haley and you see smoke coming what
01:15:45 with Haley and you see smoke coming what was the color of the smoke at that time so it was it was black it wasn't as thick it was yeah so black smoke but not
01:15:57 thick it was yeah so black smoke but not thick did you smell it I I still have the burning snow in my nose at that point so that that's still what I could
01:16:08 point so that that's still what I could smell okay right okay and how fast and how much pressure do you think it was coming out of the vents
01:16:20 coming out of the vents [Music]
01:16:23 [Music] well the smoke was coming out very slowly it wasn't fast at all I think
01:16:38 yeah it was quite slow but you could see movement could you off the smoke yep as it did it seem to you to be coming out under prep and the only kind of pressure
01:16:50 under prep and the only kind of pressure no not really okay
01:17:01 and you say this mate was coming from both sides and meeting in the middle was it yeah
01:17:08 it yeah was it dissipating anywhere from the lobby or was it just collecting in the lobby
01:17:15 lobby so it started collecting in the lobby at that point I had made the decision it was unsafe to go back into the lobby so
01:17:28 was unsafe to go back into the lobby so I had locked myself into our flat so this is after we made our first attempt to get out and after that I started
01:17:40 to get out and after that I started looking at it through so our front door had a people sort of just to look if someone knocks the door you can see who who's outside so you could had a little
01:17:54 who's outside so you could had a little glass there so I kept on looking out through that peephole and I could see that it was getting thicker and thicker and it got to a point where we couldn't
01:18:06 and it got to a point where we couldn't see anything at all from that people and that's and then I remember the smoke started coming in from under our front door and it got to a point where I
01:18:19 door and it got to a point where I couldn't get close to the front door either so I couldn't look through the peephole anymore either so slowly slowly I decided the same way it was making its way to the middle of the hallway it
01:18:31 way to the middle of the hallway it started making its way from from our entrance into our rooms right this is breaking that down a little bit and so I
01:18:45 breaking that down a little bit and so I can understand a bit more detail there how how long did you spend do you think in the lobby when you first decided with your mother and father to leave and you
01:18:56 your mother and father to leave and you saw the slate coming through the vents how long did you spend in the lobby it wasn't long at all so we got into the staircase there were there was quite a few people that were coming up so we
01:19:08 few people that were coming up so we couldn't
01:19:11 there were so many people that were coming up that we couldn't get past them to go down so I think the first few people that were in front we asked him
01:19:23 people that were in front we asked him what was going on they I think they they said something along the lines like there's no way out there's a fire and there's no way out
01:19:34 there's no way out I think someone had mentioned that the fire was in the stairwell as well so we couldn't make our way down the stairs so we just went back into our door into our
01:19:47 we just went back into our door into our apartment okay I'm gonna come back to that aspect of things in a moment could I just just pick up on something else
01:19:59 I just just pick up on something else which is you go back into your flat and you look through the peephole in your front door could you see this the smoke vent on the north wall of the lobby from your
01:20:11 north wall of the lobby from your peephole
01:20:12 peephole no there was there was a little wall that was blocking off you Tudor so in front of us there was a wall where you could only see partially so up to about
01:20:26 could only see partially so up to about the new doors to where they had enclosed pipe work on the lobby area you could see I think the first door of that
01:20:37 see I think the first door of that closest to our flat right okay
01:20:42 when you went back into your flat how soon did you first then look out of the people so I think we all went into the
01:20:54 people so I think we all went into the living room spent about a minute just talking to the other people seeing what was going on yes and then I I think my
01:21:06 was going on yes and then I I think my mum and dad stayed there in the living room and I was and I made my way back into our hallway to have a look through to people so literally about minute and and was there when you looked out of
01:21:18 and and was there when you looked out of the people did you see any difference in the smoke conditions of the lobby yeah it was a lot thicker much less visibility you could still see see a little bit of the floor so you could see
01:21:31 little bit of the floor so you could see the blue part of the floor but it was getting darker and darker and just so we're clear that the people was it was
01:21:42 we're clear that the people was it was glass was it was it was it clear do you have a clear view through the peephole yes it wasn't misty or anything like that
01:21:48 that no not at that stage not the first time I looked out with it right okay now
01:21:58 going back a little bit in in your evidence you say a paragraph 30 which is
01:22:15 evidence you say a paragraph 30 which is where we were just read to you you wanted to make your way down the stairs and you then say in the third line as we've seen he even went into the staircase so you've got across the lobby
01:22:26 staircase so you've got across the lobby and can I just ask you who opened the door to the staircase do you remember no I can't remember okay I think it's right you have to push the door into the
01:22:37 you have to push the door into the staircase don't you yes do you know you remember whether that whoever it was who pushed the door into the staircase found it more difficult to open than normal
01:22:50 no I can't remember is there any air pressure pressuring pressing against the stairwell told you that you might recall that I can't remember okay um
01:23:01 when you got into the stairs how far into the stairs did you get and I so we didn't manage to take a step down so we were under landing of all our floor I
01:23:14 were under landing of all our floor I think that's as far as we got because it was de Serres were just full of people coming up a couple of questions about the conditions in the staff at first of all did you notice any smoke in the
01:23:26 all did you notice any smoke in the stair when you got into it no and did you notice any change in the temperature in the stair at that point you know could you feel any movement of air up or
01:23:38 could you feel any movement of air up or down or across in the stair at that point I can't remember No did you could you still smell the burning smell in the stairs I don't think I I don't think it
01:23:53 stairs I don't think I I don't think it was in the stair case
01:23:58 and then you say it paragraph 30 at the end and as you've just told us that people were coming up and they were your neighbors from lower floors ma'am and
01:24:11 neighbors from lower floors ma'am and then the paragraph 31 you say they were coming up and this is the top of page at page 6 they were coming up paragraph 31
01:24:22 page 6 they were coming up paragraph 31 we can just expand that they were coming up and telling us that there was a fire in the tower and that they had been told to come up to the top floor they told us that there was no way out through the
01:24:34 that there was no way out through the stairs at this point there was not much smoke on our floor and I could still see clearly first of all how many people do
01:24:47 clearly first of all how many people do you remember in total were coming up as you stepped out onto the landing outside the stairwell door I would I would
01:24:58 the stairwell door I would I would estimate it a minimum of 10 people
01:25:05 and did you know them yes so because I was in such a rush to get down and with everything going on I I just noticed the
01:25:18 everything going on I I just noticed the first four people who eventually ended up coming into our flat with us yeah so that sort of ones I remember clearly the
01:25:31 that sort of ones I remember clearly the rest I don't remember exactly who it was but okay yeah do did you know them yes you knew they knew who they were yes okay and did you speak to do you
01:25:48 yes okay and did you speak to do you remember who you spoke to so I remember speaking it began with one of the iranian ladies that had come up
01:26:00 of the iranian ladies that had come up who ended up in our flat and then i think the person who I got most information from was Marion Marion yes
01:26:11 information from was Marion Marion yes Oh Gauri yes that's right she's the one day I got most information from okay now so came back to paragraph 31 when you
01:26:22 so came back to paragraph 31 when you say they were telling us there was a fire in the tower is that information that came from from Maryam do you think yes I remember she said that the fire was already in their flats
01:26:35 was already in their flats she said she mentioned that her flat was already bad and right and you then say they had been told to come
01:26:48 you then say they had been told to come up to the top floor do you know what did she tell you who had told her to go to the top floor no did you get an impression of who had given that advice I I fought it was the
01:27:04 given that advice I I fought it was the firefighters had told her yeah I wouldn't say no she didn't say did anybody else in that group that you encountered then
01:27:15 encountered then tell you the same thing that they had been told to come up to the top floor I believe one of the iranian ladies they
01:27:27 I believe one of the iranian ladies they kept on mentioning that they had been told that helicopters would come and rescue dan from the top i don't know
01:27:38 rescue dan from the top i don't know where she got this information from but that's what she told us right and then you go on in the next sentence of paragraph 30 you want to say they told
01:27:49 paragraph 30 you want to say they told us there was no way out through the stairs but first of all do you remember who told you that i can't remember no and when you say
01:28:01 i can't remember no and when you say there was no way out through the stairs can you remember what they actually said I I think that they said that the fire was in the staircase that's what I
01:28:14 was in the staircase that's what I remember
01:28:21 right
01:28:31 and then
01:28:36 you say that in paragraph 32 I had my house keys in my pocket and I opened the flat door again and we went back into
01:28:47 flat door again and we went back into our flat and then you say in the next paragraph four of the women that have come up from the floors below came into our flat with us and you describe who
01:28:59 our flat with us and you describe who they who they are
01:29:03 did you invite them in I think everyone that had come up stairs just followed whoever they were most comfortable with
01:29:15 whoever they were most comfortable with so I feel like the four ladies that came into our flat they were most comfortable with us because we so with Miriam I
01:29:27 with us because we so with Miriam I remember her from school so she was a few years older than me but I do remember seeing her so she was a familiar face and we spoke on a few
01:29:38 familiar face and we spoke on a few occasions every time we would see each other in the lifts we would say hi and just ask each other how we were doing and the Iranian ladies would always
01:29:49 and the Iranian ladies would always speak to my mom I think my mom had visited them or they had visited my mom I can't remember in on a previous occasion so they felt most comfortable
01:30:01 occasion so they felt most comfortable coming with us so they followed us into our flats the rest followed the other neighbors so I can't remember if anyone went into 206 but I saw quite a few
01:30:13 went into 206 but I saw quite a few people going to the other side of the lobby
01:30:16 lobby so we're flat 201 202 and 203 were had the occupants of those flats come out onto the lobby stage to greet or
01:30:27 onto the lobby stage to greet or encourage other members of the yeah at that stage at that stage everyone was opening their doors at that stage and to see what was going on I think we were
01:30:40 see what was going on I think we were probably one of the lucky ones in the fact that we were still awake at the time when we discovered the fire was probably still sleeping I remember
01:30:51 was probably still sleeping I remember flat 204 the gentleman that lived in flat 204 he opened the door and he looked like as if he had just woken up
01:31:02 looked like as if he had just woken up still still looked a bit confused as to what was going on he opened the door and he just closed it again looked outside and closed it again did any of the
01:31:17 and closed it again did any of the people who'd come up the stairs tell you anything about other people in the stairs blocking access no you don't remember that no I don't think anyone
01:31:28 remember that no I don't think anyone did mention it right do you remember whether anybody spoke to your your mother at that stage yes my nan was speaking to someone I wasn't part of the conversation I wasn't I don't think I was even listening but I
01:31:40 don't think I was even listening but I could see out of the corner of my eye that she was speaking to someone okay do you remember who she was speaking to all right and you say that you took them
01:31:54 right and you say that you took them into the medic to the living room yes that's the whole group is it yeah everyone went into the living room okay and on page 6 of your statement at paragraph 35 you say the two Iranian
01:32:07 paragraph 35 you say the two Iranian women stayed close to my dad Miriam and her mum sat on the sofa in the living room and you then go on to say that you
01:32:18 room and you then go on to say that you knew her from going to school where was your father at this time so my dad was also walking around the flat quite a lot
01:32:33 also walking around the flat quite a lot so he he spent quite a lot of the time in his bedroom but he would every now and then come into the living room there
01:32:44 and then come into the living room there was a stage where I told my dad to just stay close to us because every time I I just felt like we have to all be together I would just see my dad
01:32:57 together I would just see my dad suddenly wandering off and I didn't feel comfortable with that so I told him to stay close to us but even the author I did tell him that
01:33:08 but even the author I did tell him that I I remember there was another occasion where he just went into his bedroom for the last time and when he came back out he he just told us don't go into don't
01:33:22 he he just told us don't go into don't go into my bedroom because the fire's already in there
01:33:33 and paragraph 36 you describe how the smoke was coming in and you say the flat
01:33:44 smoke was coming in and you say the flat was filling up the flat slowly and the fire that should say was filling up the flat slowly each time we open the door smoke poured in when you say the door is
01:33:56 smoke poured in when you say the door is that the front door and the front door yes okay and do you remember where when when the door was shut whether there was smoke coming in from
01:34:07 whether there was smoke coming in from the bottom yes at the bottom of the of the front door yes and do you remember what the what the color of the smoke was it was black black did have did the smoke have a particular smell or taste
01:34:19 smoke have a particular smell or taste do you remember do you ever had how thick it was it was coming in it was so
01:34:31 thick it was it was coming in it was so it when it started to come in it was quite light and as more and more smoke came in I think it just sort of filled up the air and made it more made it darker right so thin black going to
01:34:45 darker right so thin black going to thicker black yes is that okay that's quite accurate okay how often do you think you opened the front door I think
01:35:00 until the point where I couldn't see anything from the people hmm that's the loo I stopped opening it the front door from then so I believe I opened it maybe
01:35:14 from then so I believe I opened it maybe about three four times but that was just to check if anyone else had come out into the lobby to see if anyone any fire
01:35:27 into the lobby to see if anyone any fire fighters had come up because you couldn't really see from the peephole clearly clearly anymore so the only way
01:35:38 clearly clearly anymore so the only way for me to look out was to open the door physically and pop my head out yes and when you did that could you breathe yes
01:35:52 breathe yes so I I could breathe but I because of running around so much even within the
01:36:05 running around so much even within the flat I think I had got a bit breathless I don't know if that was to do with the smoke or just from me running around but I had got a bit breathless and then the point where I realized that the smoke
01:36:20 point where I realized that the smoke was actually taking a toll on us was while we were all in the living room even though we were away from the smoke as far away as from the smoke as we could be I realized that around
01:36:33 could be I realized that around everyone's noses there were there was black blackness around everyone's nose and I at that point Irish I just realized that must be around my nose as
01:36:44 realized that must be around my nose as well so the smoke must be doing something to us right how ok how soon after the group
01:36:57 right how ok how soon after the group came into the flat did you notice black marks around people's noses I think probably about 10-15 minutes after that
01:37:09 probably about 10-15 minutes after that everyone came in ok and were they what were you and start with you were you feeling discomfort in terms of breathing or your name or lungs I my nose was just
01:37:25 or your name or lungs I my nose was just a bit itchy from the inside that's that's about it it just had like a itchy tingly kind of sensation but I couldn't really feel anything else
01:37:36 anything else one retinyl throat my throat felt fine at that time in your lungs I didn't feel anything okay
01:37:47 I didn't feel anything okay could you still smell that electrical burning smell that you described to us earlier but you'd smelt at the beginning of this I think at at that stage it wasn't just the electrical burning smell
01:37:59 wasn't just the electrical burning smell you could smell though there was a whole load of different smells that you could that were in the air overnight so I think there was like chemicals that you
01:38:10 think there was like chemicals that you could smell you could smell like wood so it was different a mixture of different smells
01:38:16 smells can you that's really helpful can you just give us a bit more on that so you say chemicals would anything else do you remember pick out I I guess the probably
01:38:33 remember pick out I I guess the probably metal so it had like I don't know how to explain it but it's sort of like if you
01:38:44 explain it but it's sort of like if you can taste so sourness kind of sourness and it's very difficult to explain I
01:38:55 and it's very difficult to explain I understand it is just difficult but it's s ok soundless what about metallic yeah there's a metallic sound exactly right
01:39:06 there's a metallic sound exactly right so I put that idea into your head but is that right yeah yeah okay okay um did did you
01:39:16 did you I say did the group all stay in one place in the flat well were people moving about so we were moving around but not has to go into the different
01:39:29 but not has to go into the different bedrooms we were in the living room and the kitchen so we were moving around from the living room to the kitchen from the kitchen to the living room yeah
01:39:40 the kitchen to the living room yeah when when you were moving around the flat to do yourself observe any sources of smoke coming in apart from the underneath the front door no at that
01:39:53 underneath the front door no at that stage it was just so our hallway so it inside our flat the whole way up to my bedroom door it was
01:40:06 whole way up to my bedroom door it was completely black so you couldn't see anything smoke was coming in through there
01:40:11 there I fought possibly day it's coming in from my dad's bedroom because he mentioned that the fire had already started in there yeah I do remember opening the windows
01:40:22 yeah I do remember opening the windows every now and then to get some smoke out and get some fresh air in but I do remember when we did open the window at that point there was smoke coming up from outside so we
01:40:36 smoke coming up from outside so we couldn't keep that windows open for too long because the smoke would get into our flat right do you remember which window it was that you opened yeah so we opened the kitchen window and the living
01:40:48 opened the kitchen window and the living room window closests the one which is closest to my bedroom so we had four windows in the lokay the one which was
01:40:59 windows in the lokay the one which was closer to my bedroom that's the one we were opening right and the kitchen window yes so both west side and north side yes okay um now I just want to take a step
01:41:10 okay um now I just want to take a step outside this particular part of the night and just look at something a bit more general a paragraph 130 of your statement you say 131 in particular you
01:41:28 statement you say 131 in particular you describe in 130 the replacement of the old windows with new windows and gaps being left around the edges and those gaps then being filled at 131 can I just ask you to look at that you say this is
01:41:42 ask you to look at that you say this is the top of page 22 our flat was always cold after the new windows were installed there's one 131 our flat was
01:41:54 installed there's one 131 our flat was always cold after the new windows were installed as gaps underneath the windows were allowing drafts to come through the whole tower was a lot colder with the new windows I remember the wall in my
01:42:06 new windows I remember the wall in my bedroom
01:42:07 bedroom my bed backed onto was always cold to touch I did not personally report this but I believe my mum did now it's what I ask you questions about that paragraph
01:42:18 ask you questions about that paragraph and then we come back to the stew the night do you remember where around for first of all which windows were allowing drafts to come through remember which ones in the flattened they were the main
01:42:32 ones in the flattened they were the main one which I can remember was my bedroom one because that's where I spent most of my time so yeah I I remembered there was
01:42:45 my time so yeah I I remembered there was a window which my mom had sellotaped to stop the draft coming in I can't remember which window it was but I do
01:42:58 remember which window it was but I do remember that there was sellotape on one of the windows okay when did she put the sellotape there do you remember no I remember it was very soon after the windows had been fitted
01:43:11 soon after the windows had been fitted okay do you remember which part of the window she put sellotape on so it would have been so where you have the window
01:43:23 have been so where you have the window sill just the the PVC covering would come would sort of go around it and go towards the bottom yes so at that bottom there was a little there was small gaps
01:43:36 there was a little there was small gaps where usually where I've seen windows there silicon Donal something is there too but we had a gap a very small gap
01:43:48 too but we had a gap a very small gap there and could you feel air coming in through that gap I I could hear it I never felt it myself so with with my
01:44:02 never felt it myself so with with my window in my bedroom I could feel it after windows I didn't really experience much I don't spend much time out of my room when I was at home but from my
01:44:14 room when I was at home but from my window you could feel the wind and so you could hear it as well did you do yourself or your mum block that with cellotape or anything else no okay
01:44:27 cellotape or anything else no okay was that gap still there do you remember at the time of the fire yes coming back then to the to the night do you remember whether any smoke came through the gaps
01:44:38 whether any smoke came through the gaps that you've described under the windows in the flat and I didn't pay attention to it I wouldn't have noticed do you
01:44:51 to it I wouldn't have noticed do you know whether there was a gap under the window or anywhere around the windows in your parents bedroom I don't know you don't okay now moving to page seven of
01:45:04 don't okay now moving to page seven of your statement you say I'm at the
01:45:17 the page 8 of your statement at the top of the page you describe how you spoke to a afar fighter he told me we should
01:45:29 to a afar fighter he told me we should stay in the flat and at the bottom of page 7 that's part of a discussion that you're having with a friend on the on the on the phone yes and you say he told
01:45:41 the on the phone yes and you say he told me we should stay in the flat he told me to stay put I asked him how long it would take for the fire brigade to reach us but he said he did not know I was never told to leave the flat I kept telling him we had two disabled people
01:45:53 telling him we had two disabled people in the flat and he said that he knew there were disabled people in our flat but did not say that the fire fighters were coming specifically to our flat I did not know the identity of the firefighter I spoke with and I know it's
01:46:09 firefighter I spoke with and I know it's difficult do you remember roughly how long after the group had come into your flat after your first attempt to leave that you had that conversation no
01:46:22 that you had that conversation no because I received numerous amounts of course from people outside the tower on that night and they went the cause happened from the time we got into
01:46:35 happened from the time we got into everyone came into a flat until the point where I left the flat yes for the last time we were continuously on the phone so there were so many
01:46:47 phone so there were so many conversations with various people that I can remember what time it would have happened
01:46:55 the group that had come into your flat and were they were they wearing night clothes let me ask it more generally
01:47:06 clothes let me ask it more generally what were they wearing do you remember no I don't remember I can't remember what they were wearing do they look like they were dressed to leave or do they
01:47:17 they were dressed to leave or do they look like they just got out of bed I think Miriam and her mum looked as if they wanted to leave they were ready to
01:47:29 they wanted to leave they were ready to leave it wasn't like I don't think they were wearing outdoor clothes they were wearing maybe house clothes not
01:47:45 wearing maybe house clothes not something that you would wear out outside normally I think I remember Marian's mum she had like a large scarf that was around her that's that's about
01:47:59 that was around her that's that's about all I can remember right were they wearing on anything on their feet she remember I didn't I didn't pay attention no just going back a bit to the larger group that you saw coming up the stairs
01:48:10 group that you saw coming up the stairs do you remember whether anybody else in that group was dressed to leave ready to go outside or whether they were in their bed clothes from what I remember most people were in their house clothes but
01:48:23 people were in their house clothes but they had just put on the jumper on on top like a coat or a jumper just to keep themselves warm but yeah everyone was pretty much
01:48:34 but yeah everyone was pretty much wearing pajamas right now moving on in your evidence at paragraph 45 you say
01:48:45 your evidence at paragraph 45 you say page versus page 8 you say the fire eventually got to our flat it started in my parents bedroom I did not see it
01:48:56 my parents bedroom I did not see it myself and my dad informed me that the fire was in his bedroom he had closed his bedroom door and told us not to go in and then you go on to say this was
01:49:07 in and then you go on to say this was quite concerning as my parents bedroom directly in front of our front door which was our only exit out of the flat we stayed in the flat from between 15 and 30 minutes after that whilst the
01:49:20 and 30 minutes after that whilst the fire was in the bedroom I believe the bedroom window had broken and the fired come in from outside when we eventually left as no one was coming to rescue us I would think it took us about 10 to 15
01:49:31 would think it took us about 10 to 15 minutes to get down the tower to the exit now there's quite a bit in that so I just wanted to see if I can unpack that a bit more first of all did you
01:49:42 that a bit more first of all did you look out for the windows yourself during the time when well after the time when your father had closed the bedroom door and said don't go in there yeah so we
01:49:54 and said don't go in there yeah so we looked out of the windows quite a lot I looked towards the north side so looking onto their Academy you could see bits of
01:50:07 onto their Academy you could see bits of bits of flying the priests on fire flying up up the wind taking them up on the side of the kitchen so towards the
01:50:19 the side of the kitchen so towards the station we couldn't see any fire at all it was clear on that side right and
01:50:31 do you remember hearing specifically Miriam el Guero calling 999 yes I I
01:50:47 Miriam el Guero calling 999 yes I I would say it was 999 that she called because I remember she got frustrated at one point during the phone call I think
01:50:59 one point during the phone call I think they must have asked if the fire had reached them or something and she she just shouted yes it's our flat is
01:51:10 just shouted yes it's our flat is already burned everything enough flat it's already burned through the phone so I presume it was the fire brigade that she was on the phone to you do you
01:51:21 she was on the phone to you do you remember how many calls she made no I don't know were you present how many do you think you were present during I think to 999 I was present during one
01:51:33 think to 999 I was present during one the rest of the time Miriam was on her phone pretty much the whole time there was various phone calls to different people so I wouldn't be able to say who
01:51:44 people so I wouldn't be able to say who she was on the phone to you but the whole time she was on the phone when she came off the phone on that occasion to the emergency services did she did she
01:51:56 the emergency services did she did she tell you anything about what advice she received no I don't think so because I think halfway through that conversation I had gone started walking around again
01:52:09 I had gone started walking around again so I sort of left that and I walk to a different part see how my mom was doing okay so does that mean that what she never relayed to you what advice or
01:52:22 never relayed to you what advice or information she had got yeah but from her 999 call no no and I didn't ask okay now a paragraph 50
01:52:41 you say halfway down that it's the line above the end actually we had wet towels which we use to cover our mouths and I
01:52:53 which we use to cover our mouths and I also smoke soaked my sweatshirt in water and wrapped it around my head do you did you wet towels yourself so my father and
01:53:06 you wet towels yourself so my father and I both of us right where did you go we so when we started to see the smoke coming in we had some buckets in the
01:53:19 coming in we had some buckets in the flat we filled up the buckets full of water from the kitchen sink kitchen sink yeah and we were just using the water
01:53:31 yeah and we were just using the water from the buckets so so we started at first we started to throw the water over the carpets and then we filled up the buckets again and we would just dip the towels into the bucket and use that do
01:53:44 towels into the bucket and use that do you remember any problems sorry let me put it a different way do you remember anything particular about the water pressure when you were filling up the buckets no I think because it was a
01:53:57 buckets no I think because it was a slightly larger bucket we just left the tap on while we went and sorted the towels and everything right so I don't really pay attention to how fast it was
01:54:09 really pay attention to how fast it was filling that okay do you remember any time when you or your father opened the taps and there was no water I can't
01:54:20 taps and there was no water I can't remember okay personally I I was just using the bucket as a water source it was my dad mostly that was controlling the tap okay what
01:54:32 that was controlling the tap okay what about what about your mother do you remember when I won the taps I don't think my mum was handling the taps I think she was just helping to source the
01:54:44 think she was just helping to source the towels at the time
01:54:48 yes okay mr. leather mr. chair we've been going for another 45 minutes or so it might be a bit longer maybe a little bit longer yes I'm at unconsciously may have gone over our 45 minute mark is it
01:54:59 have gone over our 45 minute mark is it convenient to you mr. Miller that we take a break now yeah sure yeah all right mr. chairman yes short break I think would be central to have a short break now and we'll take ten minutes mr. no shots all right don't
01:55:11 ten minutes mr. no shots all right don't talk to an island by for evidence peanuts well you're right and we'll come back at 5:00 past 12:00 okay right yeah thank you thank you try to give the options
01:55:27 all right five past 12 years
02:06:38 right mr. knitter yes happy to carry on yes thank you thank you very much yes mr. millet it's the nether thank you very much for coming coming back to us can I just go back with you to one thing you told us
02:06:49 back with you to one thing you told us in the last session of your evidence about the smoke coming from the smoke vents do you remember that it's nothing we had just to clarify you say that it came from both sides just to be clear
02:07:03 came from both sides just to be clear could you see the smoke coming from both events on on each wall north and south yes you could yes yeah now the other
02:07:15 yes you could yes yeah now the other question is that when the the ladies came into your flat or perhaps well they were on the stairwell did you you mentioned I think that there was discussion of helicopters coming was
02:07:27 discussion of helicopters coming was that when you first saw them all was that when you went into the flat with them
02:07:31 them I believe it was more when we got into the flat right yeah and was there a discussion about them going onto the roof at any time do you think oh yes I
02:07:44 roof at any time do you think oh yes I think one of the iranian ladies had mentioned they would be when when she mentioned that they would be sending helicopters i think my mum had mentioned
02:07:56 helicopters i think my mum had mentioned to her that there's no way up for us no way for us to get onto the roof it's locked okay did you get any any impression or sense of where the lady
02:08:08 impression or sense of where the lady had got I think says mrs. Alfred Elbe isn't it yes where she had got the idea of helicopters from well she she had
02:08:20 of helicopters from well she she had spoken to someone on the phone before coming up she she did mention that she was speaking to someone on the phone I don't know who it was and then I think
02:08:31 don't know who it was and then I think just the fact that the helicopters were outside the tower were flying above the tower probably influenced that a bit more onto
02:08:41 more onto okay now going back to your first witness statement
02:08:55 you describe your decision to leave the
02:09:11 you describe your decision to leave the flat and you do that in a number of places but I think it's best to see it at paragraph 50 on page 9 of your statement and just to set it in context
02:09:24 statement and just to set it in context for years to meta this starts on the page before a page page 8 with the heading leaving the flat and to try and escape and paragraph 49 then describes
02:09:35 escape and paragraph 49 then describes how your mum was next to the window saying she was ready to jump rather than going through the pain of being burnt alive and I want to take you through through that paragraph 50 you say so in
02:09:46 through that paragraph 50 you say so in those last few minutes well I thought there was nothing else we could do I grabbed my mum and shout it to my dad we need to leave now there was just so much smoke I thought
02:09:57 there was just so much smoke I thought if I did not grab my mum then at that time we would not be able to grab her again she was vulnerable but she certainly could not walk down the stairs on her own due to her mobility problems I had to do something
02:10:08 I had to do something we had wet towels which we used to cover our mouths and I also soaked my sweatshirt in water and wrapped it around my head now we looked at the wet towels but let's want to look at the decision can you just looking back on it
02:10:20 decision can you just looking back on it now just describe for us exactly what it was that made you make that decision well the smoke was just cornering us at
02:10:32 well the smoke was just cornering us at that point so we we didn't have anywhere else to hide so I'm up until that point we would keep on moving further and further back into the flat until the
02:10:43 further back into the flat until the point where we got to the kitchen which is the last place that was that remains smoke-free well less smoke than everywhere else after that we didn't
02:10:55 everywhere else after that we didn't have anywhere else to hide from the smoke
02:11:00 now at that point I think we looked at this early who doll you had already had a discussion with a firefighter who told you to stay where you are and the people were coming yes how long after that
02:11:14 were coming yes how long after that conversation did you make the decision to leave that you've just described do you think probably about 10 15 minutes
02:11:26 you think probably about 10 15 minutes Yeah right do you can you tell us whether the advice that you got from the firefighter heard in any way influenced your your
02:11:39 heard in any way influenced your your actions before you decided to leave yes because Dale there was a stage where my
02:11:50 because Dale there was a stage where my friends and family were downstairs and they were communicating directly to the firefighters who were outside the tower and for at several points I asked if
02:12:05 and for at several points I asked if they were actually coming to get us and the response that I had got was that they were on their way up they told me that they had reached a certain level I
02:12:18 that they had reached a certain level I believed they yeah he said he's he the guy outside wasn't sure what floor that the firefighters had reached but he
02:12:31 the firefighters had reached but he assured us that they were on their way up and they would be with us soon especially the fact that when I told them that we had disabled people in the apartment they said that they already
02:12:45 apartment they said that they already know that you so I thought okay we're there clearly thinking about us they know we're up here so they must be coming to get us
02:12:56 coming to get us I had no reason to disbelieve them no so when at the moment you made your decision
02:13:02 decision did you know well think you are now going to do something different from the advice that you got from the firefighter yes
02:13:10 yes so I I just thought to myself we don't have enough time to wait for them there's just not enough time
02:13:21 there's just not enough time I remember just before that literally minutes before that I had sent a message
02:13:32 minutes before that I had sent a message to someone who lived on the third floor they weren't in the tower at the time but they were in contact with fire
02:13:43 but they were in contact with fire brigade outside and I had mentioned I had sent a message asking is there any hope that's that's the words I used is there any hope yes and and she didn't
02:13:58 there any hope yes and and she didn't have an answer for me she just said stay calm and at that point I I just thought
02:14:09 calm and at that point I I just thought things aren't gay no we're not and they're not gonna get here in time was that mojo
02:14:18 that mojo haveve yes that's right now I think you've given what you've just said perhaps we can look at your second exhibit to your your set your second
02:14:33 exhibit to your your set your second witness statement
02:14:38 and
02:14:40 I'll just give the iaws reference so we can get it up on the screen
02:14:51 like its iws quadruple 0 1 1 3 4 this
02:15:04 like its iws quadruple 0 1 1 3 4 this exhibit is data is data the 16th of October so does two days ago you exhibited it and this is when we get to it the what an extract of your whatsapp
02:15:16 it the what an extract of your whatsapp removed messages with with murder Habib how do you pronounce surface the grudge to monster yeah okay and I don't want to
02:15:27 to monster yeah okay and I don't want to look at the first page I'd like to pick it up at the second page of the exhibit if we can judge before we do that I should just say there is at the top of this extract mr. chairman you know the
02:15:41 this extract mr. chairman you know the bottom of a picture which does say show flame on the exterior of the tower and again I should just make a warning just in case anyone finds that distressing
02:15:53 but it's page six of the second exhibit
02:16:03 as one one three four
02:16:10 and I think it's it's a part of the same iws reference it's page six of iws quadruple zero paper can you please go to the next page
02:16:25 let's page eight in fact
02:16:33 yes could you go to page 8 please
02:16:38 there we are now we could pick this up at the bottom I'm sorry at the top of of this extract this is just so we're clear mr. nether this is an extract from your
02:16:50 mr. nether this is an extract from your is it from your phone yes you were receiving whatsapp messages for a month from Majda yes she was outside the building was she not herself her brother-in-law was outside okay
02:17:02 brother-in-law was outside okay and you say and I'm interested in the timings you say are halfway down the page our noses are full of black smoke that's that's you sending her a message
02:17:13 that's that's you sending her a message is it yes so the green is you sending her a message yes okay and so we can time the black smoke round the noses that you described earlier Oh 159 yes
02:17:24 that you described earlier Oh 159 yes and then you say at the bottom we are getting worried and this is it Oh to something and then is there any hope Oh 201 so would that be about the
02:17:37 hope Oh 201 so would that be about the time when you started asking mojo is there any hope yes I see III think that's one of the last messages I sent her to her on the night yes right now
02:17:50 her to her on the night yes right now how long after this do you think you made your decision to leave about two or three minutes after it might have been
02:18:01 three minutes after it might have been more I'm not sure does that mean that the conversation you had with the firefighter about staying in your flat that someone are coming for you was before Oh 201 or was it after do you
02:18:19 before Oh 201 or was it after do you think I
02:18:26 I think they might they might have been an occasion after as well where I had conversations on the phone I don't think
02:18:37 conversations on the phone I don't think much there was the last person that I spoke to your message on the night no and indeed if you look down the page it says I'm calling what modulus is I'm
02:18:48 it says I'm calling what modulus is I'm calling him he's got to call you now and this is all that Oh to a to pick up at Oh - OH - I think in that case I think that was maybe about 15 minutes
02:19:04 think that was maybe about 15 minutes before we made the decision to leave exactly so you spoke what was the first question did a call come in to you which you took yes there were several course with her brother-in-law okay and do you
02:19:16 with her brother-in-law okay and do you think one do you remember whether one of those was the call on which you were the famous handed to the firefighter right okay that's very helpful um when you
02:19:29 okay that's very helpful um when you made your decision as we've been discussing to leave did you have any thoughts about how you were going to get through the lobby to the stairwell I I
02:19:42 through the lobby to the stairwell I I just remember although I couldn't tell how hot it was that night from when I
02:19:54 how hot it was that night from when I had wet my sweater the water was getting dry I kept on drying up so we had to keep rewetting or towels and uh whatever we were using so I remember i re-read
02:20:07 we were using so I remember i re-read waited my sweater wrapped it around my head and I just thought I'm just going to take a deep breath in and hold my breath mm-hmm and go as far as I can
02:20:22 we discussed earlier that you'd been told by I think Miriam who you you think Miriam yet when she arrived in the stairwell and you met her that there was no way through the stairs because the
02:20:33 no way through the stairs because the stairs were on fire yeah did you have any thoughts at the time you decided to make your escape how you were going to get through that fire that you thought was there I I thought
02:20:49 there was just not no other way to get out
02:20:53 out other than the windows there was no other way and being afraid of heights myself I decided to take the other option down the other option that was
02:21:05 option down the other option that was available and I thought if we do encounter any flames it might be possible to go into one of the other lobbies in on another floor just while
02:21:18 lobbies in on another floor just while we before we reach the flames I thought it was a better option to take in the window prior to you and your mother
02:21:32 window prior to you and your mother leaving the flat had any firefighter come up to the flat no sure about that yes so at the moment you open your front door to leave can you describe for us
02:21:45 door to leave can you describe for us the conditions that you immediately encountered in the lobby at that point so smoke just hit me even though we had
02:21:57 so smoke just hit me even though we had already gone into the smoke into the yeah into the thick smoke in our hallway when I opened the front door even more
02:22:08 when I opened the front door even more smoke just hit me in my face I remember just closing my eyes and I think I until the point where I got into the staircase
02:22:20 the point where I got into the staircase my eyes were closed the whole time right okay and does that mean you didn't you couldn't actually see anything clearly
02:22:31 couldn't actually see anything clearly couldn't say yeah I think even if I would have kept my eyes open from when we had got into the smoke in our hallway already we couldn't see anything in
02:22:42 already we couldn't see anything in front of us so even if I would have had my eyes open in the lobby area we I still wouldn't have been able to see now
02:22:54 still wouldn't have been able to see now a paragraph 52 of your statement you say I grabbed my mom and walked out of our
02:23:05 I grabbed my mom and walked out of our flat onto the landing outside it was pitch black and thick with smoke I could not see a thing and then you say the heat was greater in the lobby than the in the flat yep and how much can you
02:23:20 in the flat yep and how much can you tell how much hotter it was in the lobby than in the flat well every time I I think the best I could explain it is
02:23:34 think the best I could explain it is every time I would take a breath in I could feel my throat and my lungs burning I could feel it literally right
02:23:45 burning I could feel it literally right but that's so you did inhale the smoke in the lobby right could you feel the heat in the air or smoke on your skin not really no I
02:23:59 I remember just before I got out I was wearing a leather jacket I took that off and I was just wearing a polo shirt at
02:24:11 and I was just wearing a polo shirt at the time with jeans and I don't think I think the heat was the least of my worries at that time hmm I wasn't paying much attention to it okay so before I
02:24:25 much attention to it okay so before I leave it leaving aside the lungs did you feel any change in the ambient air temperature as you went out into the lobby at all no not lately okay and you've told us I
02:24:39 no not lately okay and you've told us I think earlier this morning that you weren't focusing on the noise that the smoke vent system was working yeah no I wasn't okay now your mother has given us a statement and I know we'll be giving
02:24:50 a statement and I know we'll be giving evidence to later today it describes in her statement that there was dark gray shiny smoke she says she was shiny and she says it
02:25:02 she says she was shiny and she says it looked like glitter do you remember that
02:25:12 what physical effect apart from the burning in the lungs and your throat I think you've described what other physical effect of that smoke in the lobby when you went into it have on you I was out of breath I I think just out
02:25:33 I was out of breath I I think just out of breath yeah okay were you sick no like I was coughing every couple of seconds I was coughing but I wasn't sick
02:25:46 seconds I was coughing but I wasn't sick no what about your mum do you remember what physical effect it had on she was coughing quite a lot she was struggling
02:25:58 coughing quite a lot she was struggling to talk I remember halfway halfway down the stairs she went
02:26:09 halfway halfway down the stairs she went unconscious for a small period of time I can't remember when she regained consciousness
02:26:17 do you remember whether she was sick [Music]
02:26:25 how long do you think it took you to cross the lobby the lobby probably about a maximum of 20 seconds
02:26:38 a maximum of 20 seconds it was quite quick because I was holding my breath I was just trying to get through as fast as I can you know it was quite quick until we got
02:26:51 you know it was quite quick until we got to the staircase right now you had your mother with you yes how are you holding her was like were you holding her yes I put from what I remember I put her left
02:27:03 put from what I remember I put her left arm around my over my shoulder across my shoulder I put my right arm around her hip area and I was sort of I had my left
02:27:17 hip area and I was sort of I had my left arm holding her arm and just carrying her her weight on my shoulders I see and
02:27:29 her her weight on my shoulders I see and then you get to the stairwell door do you remember whether it was open or closed I believe it was closed the 23rd
02:27:41 closed I believe it was closed the 23rd floor I believe was closed did you push it open yes with my shoulder with your shoulder okay do you remember any pressure that you encountered in opening
02:27:53 pressure that you encountered in opening the door okay do you remember whether the door closed behind you once you got into the stairwell I think it did it
02:28:06 into the stairwell I think it did it the doors were quite heavy so they would close automatically after so I think it did but it was too dark to see I couldn't tell if it was closed after us
02:28:18 couldn't tell if it was closed after us I should have asked you this question a minute ago but when you left your flat did you or your mother close the door behind you no we left it open I remember because I thought my dad was following
02:28:30 because I thought my dad was following behind us when I opened the door
02:28:35 our door would say open unless you closed it physically it would stay open right
02:28:40 right I just left it open thinking my dad's gonna follow us and we just ran towards the stage I think your door didn't have a self closer on it not not at the time
02:28:54 a self closer on it not not at the time of the fire when when they fitted the door it did have one yes I think within about one week of the door being fitted it broke so we weren't able to close our
02:29:08 it broke so we weren't able to close our door
02:29:09 door we called the TMO someone came and they took off it had like a little chain towards the middle which would close the door it would make the door quite heavy as well right so they took that off they
02:29:23 as well right so they took that off they said that they would replace it but they never came back so did you ever ask them to come back no I think we just left it we were I think we were happy with the door being a lot lighter because my mom
02:29:36 door being a lot lighter because my mom wouldn't was not able to open and close that door due to her condition it was too heavy for her so once they took it off the door was very light you could
02:29:48 off the door was very light you could open and close it very easily yes thank you when you get in just came back then into the stairs when you get into the stairs
02:29:58 stairs do you remember whether the smoke was the same or different from what you'd encountered in the lobby when you come through it so it was less intense it was
02:30:14 through it so it was less intense it was still thick enough to not be able to see anything if you lowered yourself down you would be able to see the floor but if you if you're standing up it was just
02:30:28 if you if you're standing up it was just thick black smoke which you couldn't see okay anything from did you you say you had a sweater over your over your head does it actually over your head so you had your vision no so I I I tied the
02:30:43 had your vision no so I I I tied the sleeves of the sweater yeah around my I think it was like just around my nose and my mouth and I was biting onto it sort of sucking up the water from the
02:30:57 sort of sucking up the water from the sweater but I could still I still had my eyes open fully like it was just covering up to my eyes and around so not
02:31:08 covering up to my eyes and around so not over my head could you see your feet when you got into the stairs good if I if I lower down
02:31:14 down lowered myself down yes but not if I was standing up okay could you see the banisters and you put their arm out no I couldn't see it I was feeling feeling it
02:31:25 couldn't see it I was feeling feeling it did you see the emergency lighting on in the stairs no it was completely dark because completely done you couldn't even see any lights no could you smoke
02:31:39 even see any lights no could you smoke smell the smoke or taste the smoke yeah it was very sour tasting just yeah every
02:31:50 it was very sour tasting just yeah every every breath I took I could just taste it taste the sourness of it was it the same taste and smell that you'd experienced when you'd smelt and tasted it in the flat slightly different so it
02:32:04 it in the flat slightly different so it was more of more acidic I don't know if it felt more acidic you say it felt more
02:32:15 it felt more acidic you say it felt more acidic witness part of your body could you feel the acid nature of its me I could feel it in my throat and inside my nose
02:32:24 nose okay the lining of my nose let's say when you say it was felt more acidic and you didn't what does that feel like so it felt like it was just burning away inside and was that more or was that
02:32:37 inside and was that more or was that different from when you were in the flat yeah so when I was in the flats although I could smell it it wasn't as intense
02:32:48 I could smell it it wasn't as intense yeah it was in the Indus tell well it was very intense so even if you took a very small breath in you could it would
02:33:01 very small breath in you could it would feel like you've taken like a whole gulp affair and what color was the smoke in the stairwell it was Blatt saying these are the same
02:33:12 it was Blatt saying these are the same yeah thank unaware and did you notice any change in the temperature the ambient temperature in the stairwell compared with the lobby no I don't I
02:33:25 compared with the lobby no I don't I don't think I don't think I was paying much attention to the temperature I think I had so many things on my mind at
02:33:36 think I had so many things on my mind at the time that I didn't even think about it no
02:33:46 you described in your statement from page nine paragraph 54 onwards to the next page page six page 10a paragraph 61
02:33:58 next page page six page 10a paragraph 61 your detailed description of your descent of the stairs with your mother and I think your mother was how are you
02:34:09 and I think your mother was how are you assisting your mother down you physically described how you were holding her yeah so the whole time she had one arm over my shoulder so going across from one side of my shoulder to
02:34:22 across from one side of my shoulder to the other side I was holding her around the hip area so had my arm around her and holding her weight huh as much as I could I remember I had I think I had one
02:34:37 could I remember I had I think I had one hand on the banister just to feel my way around right so you were taking her weight yeah yes my my mum wouldn't have
02:34:51 weight yeah yes my my mum wouldn't have been able to go down the stairs as fast as we needed to she takes I think the time it would take a normal person to go up an entire
02:35:05 a normal person to go up an entire flight of step stairs my mum would go up one step in that amount of time so she wouldn't have been able to do it on her own I had to
02:35:16 been able to do it on her own I had to take the weight now you describe this descent as I say in detail to Paris 61 when you then describe walking past a floor where you've seen an open landing yes then going in or going up I think to
02:35:30 yes then going in or going up I think to find some some clean air before you do that before you did that did you on your descent down to that point notice any change in the smoke density in the
02:35:42 change in the smoke density in the stairwell I think we could see the floor a bit more a bit better it was still
02:35:53 a bit more a bit better it was still quite dark up and still very difficult to breathe in the smoke but you you could see we I
02:36:06 the smoke but you you could see we I think we could see a bit of the floor I'd done a stage did you notice any change in the temperature at any point during this descent up to the point at which you you see them not all the clean
02:36:17 which you you see them not all the clean air no no did you come across any firefighters in the stairwell during that descent no there were hoses during
02:36:29 that descent no there were hoses during the descent but no fire firefighters themselves it it looked as though the hoses had just been placed there there I don't think they had been used because they were still flat but yeah no
02:36:45 they were still flat but yeah no firefighters that's all and what about the law was it wet or dry I think it was try yeah I I don't think it was wet
02:36:57 try yeah I I don't think it was wet because I I remember at one point we tripped over and when I touched the floor I couldn't feel any wetness yes do
02:37:11 floor I couldn't feel any wetness yes do you recall any point in that your descent when just perhaps for a few floors it got hotter
02:37:29 do you remember seeing any other
02:37:33 occupants of the building coming down the stairs not coming down No any person that we came across was
02:37:45 already dead under stairs or they were about they were about to pass away then you describe that in your statement can I then take you to paragraph 61 of your
02:37:58 I then take you to paragraph 61 of your statement on page 10 and you say as we got over halfway down the tower I remember walking past a floor where I'd seen an open landing door I do not know
02:38:11 seen an open landing door I do not know which floor this was on but because we could not breathe where we'd gotten to that on the stairwell we went back up one staircase to try and find some air
02:38:21 first of all did you say about halfway down the tower were you able to number the floors as you went down no I was just guessing from just from the amount
02:38:34 just guessing from just from the amount of steps it felt like I had gone down I was just guessing okay I see was there any point in this descent up to this point where you could begin to see the electric lights in the stairs only when
02:38:47 electric lights in the stairs only when we got to about the fourth floor that's that's when we saw light right was that because you could you see the light fittings which weren't illuminated or berserker's of the smoke no I it was
02:39:00 berserker's of the smoke no I it was because of the smoke I didn't once we got to the fourth floor I still wasn't paying attention to anything that was on the walls or any fittings on walls I was
02:39:13 the walls or any fittings on walls I was just thinking to get myself out as quick as possible now at this point you say you walk past a floor where you've seen
02:39:24 you walk past a floor where you've seen an open landing door do you know why or what was keeping the door open why it was open I they were there wasn't
02:39:37 was open I they were there wasn't anything to keep the door open so there was nothing blocking the door right and when you went past it did he did you look into the floor you know
02:39:50 he did you look into the floor you know I I don't look in so when we the way I had come about to see the door was we had tripped and whilst on the floor
02:40:02 had tripped and whilst on the floor because it was a lot clearer down and at the bottom area I just noticed the door was a bit open like halfway open but at that point I
02:40:17 like halfway open but at that point I was still trying to get out so we just continued to go down I think it was just the one flight of stairs that we went down right yeah and I realized like I
02:40:30 down right yeah and I realized like I just can't breathe anymore because at that point I think my sweater had fallen off and I couldn't get it back so I just
02:40:44 off and I couldn't get it back so I just needed some sort of air and in at that point I was thinking if I if we go back up one at least the door is open maybe
02:40:55 up one at least the door is open maybe we might find a flat door which is open and get to a window get somewhere I
02:41:03 wasn't expecting to find air inside the lobby so do you then went up that half flight oh yeah single flight from the little half landing to that floor did
02:41:14 little half landing to that floor did you go onto that Lobby floor with your mother yes how far into the lobby did you get so we sat we sat down what we laid down by where the air vents are on
02:41:27 laid down by where the air vents are on the wall in between so in between flat two and flat free or sad or I didn't yeah so we we laid down there right just
02:41:38 yeah so we we laid down there right just for about a minute right and was and how much clearer what was there any clear air there it seemed it seemed a lot clearer like it it was still smoky but
02:41:50 clearer like it it was still smoky but you could at least see you could see we could see each other right and I could see like the condition
02:42:02 right and I could see like the condition of my mum I could see how she was at that stage and he say you laid down by whether the air vents are on the wall in between those the air vents nearest the ground yes was there air coming out of
02:42:14 ground yes was there air coming out of them I I didn't pay attention I just saw the clear air around it all right I just went care and how long do you think you
02:42:27 went care and how long do you think you spent there before progressing on down again I don't think it was more than a minute is that enough to for you to get
02:42:38 minute is that enough to for you to get your breath yeah I can be able to start to breathe normally yeah it was just just enough for me to feel like I could carry on a few more flights of stairs and then I at that point I thought maybe
02:42:49 and then I at that point I thought maybe I might be able to do this on every few floors which I go down
02:43:04 and then you set off down again how long how far after leaving that lobby to go down again did you encounter your first
02:43:15 down again did you encounter your first firefighter I think maybe two floors to three floors and when you encountered that first firefighter can you describe
02:43:26 that first firefighter can you describe for us the smoke in the stairwell at that point so we still couldn't see I I only knew there was a firefighter there
02:43:38 only knew there was a firefighter there from the sounds I was hearing so I could hear the breathing apparatus working and I just knew it was a firefighter but I
02:43:51 I just knew it was a firefighter but I couldn't see seaton right did they did you don't know we couldn't see that they had torches no and I don't think they saw us Eva because it felt as though they were
02:44:04 because it felt as though they were ready to go past us and it was only that I grabbed grabbed one of them on the chest and I think that's when they
02:44:16 chest and I think that's when they realized there's someone here yes
02:44:26 how many in the maybe don't know how many in the group of firefighters did you think they were as matter of impression I'm pretty sure there was only two right you don't know where they
02:44:40 only two right you don't know where they were on their way up to know
02:44:48 now the paragraph sixty four of your statement you say the firefighter I
02:45:00 statement you say the firefighter I grabbed was male that he was with a female firefighter he told me to grab hold of his arm and the female firefighter helped my mum I told him my dad and four others were trapped in flat
02:45:11 dad and four others were trapped in flat 205 on the top floor the firefighter took out his notebook and wrote down the flat number and the number of people who were trapped they both helped us down the stairwell I told my mum to hold my
02:45:24 the stairwell I told my mum to hold my hand and to stay close to me the female firefighter was helping my mum and I was scared that she would get to the point and she could not carry my mum and I was not gonna leave my mum in the stairwell I held on to her hand
02:45:35 the stairwell I held on to her hand tightly at that point you say I told him my dad and others were trapped in flat 205 on the top floor did you you realize
02:45:47 205 on the top floor did you you realize your father had not come down with you yeah because while we were coming down my mum on several occasions she shouted my dad's name in the hope to get a
02:46:00 my dad's name in the hope to get a response to see he's behind us but we had no response so we could only assume that he was still in the flat now you
02:46:22 did you you say the firefighter took out his notebook and wrote down the flat number yeah and the number of people who
02:46:34 number yeah and the number of people who were trapped could he see enough to be able to do that so I from what I remember we got down quite low so we were I think pretty much sitting on the
02:46:49 were I think pretty much sitting on the stairwell and I think he he tried to look for the number on the floor and he was to see what floor we were on and he couldn't see that he asked me if I knew
02:47:02 couldn't see that he asked me if I knew what floor we were on I I thought it might better no you fine did you have a torch with him I can't remember
02:47:09 remember remember how he could see say you got down low does that mean yeah so at the ground you could get near the ground it's a lot less smoke so at that point we could see the ground it's a lot
02:47:21 we could see the ground it's a lot clearer down and and you were on the stairwell where you when he wrote this down yes okay did he say what would be done about the those who were still up
02:47:34 done about the those who were still up in your flat no I can't remember if he said anything those two firefighters then accompanied you doubt you and your mother down to the to the bottom of the tower yes do
02:47:47 the to the bottom of the tower yes do you know what that firefighter did with the piece of paper or the information that you've given him after that I don't know once we got to about this I
02:48:00 I don't know once we got to about this I think it was the second floor or the third floor they handed us over to other firefighters who were there though there was a big group of firefighters there and I don't know where they went
02:48:12 and I don't know where they went themselves did you see or know what that firefighter who had written down the details did at that point on that then I went to handover you know we were just rushed out of the building
02:48:27 now if you go to paragraph 67 of your statement still on the same page you say I think it took us approximately 10 to 15 minutes to get out of the tower but I
02:48:38 15 minutes to get out of the tower but I did not really know for sure just pausing there does that mean from the moment you left your flat yes to the moment you left yes that's right and you say when we got out of the tower I told
02:48:49 say when we got out of the tower I told the fire brigade that there were still people in our flat at the top as for ladies have come into the flat and my dad was still there where were you when you informed the the
02:49:00 where were you when you informed the the Tecla fire brigade that there were people still in your flat I think I was the first time I mentioned it was when just as I got out of the main entrance I
02:49:12 just as I got out of the main entrance I think I just turned my head to the firefighter that was helping me get away from the tower I told him and then after they put us on the grass area by station
02:49:25 they put us on the grass area by station walk and there were there were a couple of firefighters that kept on coming in to check up on us and I mentioned it to
02:49:36 to check up on us and I mentioned it to him as well
02:49:42 did any firefighter tell you what was going to be done about those who had been left behind in your flat no David they just said they're gonna try their best to help everyone when
02:49:54 try their best to help everyone when they were telling us don't worry just worry about yourself the paragraph 81 you describe how you were treated this
02:50:05 you describe how you were treated this is on page 13 of yours at page 14 of your statement you say that you were treated and would give an oxygen masks and blankets were you treated as soon as you left the tower or did you have to
02:50:18 you left the tower or did you have to wait to be treated do you remember I I had to wait so once we got out of the tower they put us on to the grass area and station walk and they gave oxygen to
02:50:33 and station walk and they gave oxygen to my mom she was in a worse condition in me I at that point I didn't really feel like I needed any help or I felt other
02:50:45 like I needed any help or I felt other than being exhausted I felt fine and I didn't really know no one really came to
02:50:56 didn't really know no one really came to me to see if I needed anything or if I was doing okay I remember there was one point where I felt a little bit out of
02:51:07 point where I felt a little bit out of breath my mum gave her oxygen to me for I think about 20-30 seconds I it and I put it back all around her and then
02:51:21 put it back all around her and then after we got moved by closer to the station Latimer Road station and they
02:51:33 station Latimer Road station and they had set up a like a triage point where the ambulance was checking everyone and they were just putting numbers on the everyone's and depending on how severe their condition was yes
02:51:45 their condition was yes and in your statement to paragraph 83 if we just look down at that you say you were taken to hospital and when you've got to hospital I was pretty bad it's a
02:51:57 got to hospital I was pretty bad it's a paragraph 83 second line you say I was pretty bad I couldn't breathe my airway was getting blocked and when I told the doctors that I could not breathe they checked me over and rushed me in and put
02:52:09 checked me over and rushed me in and put me into an induced coma as you say yeah how soon after you left the tower did you think your condition deteriorated in that way so up until the point where I
02:52:22 that way so up until the point where I got into got to the hospital I was still feeling fine I walked into the ambulance on my own feet I didn't need a stretcher
02:52:36 on my own feet I didn't need a stretcher or anything I walked into the hospital I think it's after sort of I started calming down and adrenaline had gone is
02:52:48 calming down and adrenaline had gone is when I started to feel it it must have been I think after nine o'clock in the morning when I got put into incident jeast coma when
02:52:59 got put into incident jeast coma when you say in your statement in the previous paragraph that you've been waiting outside the tower for up to three hours or maybe three hours you know why were you waiting for that launch
02:53:08 launch I think everyone everyone was waiting quite long and then to begin with they started to take the higher priority patients in first so there were quite a
02:53:24 patients in first so there were quite a lot of ambulances but all of them were being used so each ambulance was taken about two patients at a time rather than one I think they just saw that I was a
02:53:35 one I think they just saw that I was a lower priority I mean they even took my mum a couple of hours before they took me and they wouldn't let me go with my mum because they needed a space in the
02:53:46 mum because they needed a space in the ambulance for someone else
02:53:49 thank you and just one more question about the way down I just wanted to ask you you described how on the way down you saw a door open and then you went to
02:54:02 you saw a door open and then you went to it for some clean air do you remember whether on your way down you saw any other stairwell doors open yes I remember that hoses that the fire
02:54:17 remember that hoses that the fire brigade had left out were holding doors open at parts of the tower it wasn't on every floor but on some floors where you could see right it was at the fire brigade hoses that were
02:54:29 at the fire brigade hoses that were holding the doors open right and how many doors do you think were propped open by hoses I would say I saw about free doors open but there were several
02:54:42 free doors open but there were several floors that we had gone past where I couldn't see the doors so I wouldn't be able to tell if they were open or not right apart from the hoses being used to prop doors open or propping doors open where there are any other doors into the
02:54:54 where there are any other doors into the stairwell that you saw on your way down which were open but were not propped open I I can't remember you know I
02:55:08 open I I can't remember you know I wouldn't be able to say definitely
02:55:11 mister nether you've been extremely patient and an extremely grateful to you I come to the end of my questions what I'm going to do now is to ask the Chairman to rise for a few minutes just
02:55:22 Chairman to rise for a few minutes just to see if there are any other questions I need to ask you or other people want me to ask you and then I'm going to invite you to come back mr. chairman is action of unions I'm conscious that it's five to one no and so we should have a short break
02:55:34 and so we should have a short break before mr. nadir would like to finish it evidence before we break for lunch yes if you can so yes I will break now for five minutes well mr. millet gathers its thoughts and then we'll see if there any
02:55:45 thoughts and then we'll see if there any further questions okay right you gave the usher and they talked we know about your events please again while there are some good all right thank you thank you very much
02:56:05 I'm gonna say five powers what mr. knit very well well do you think you need less time no I think five pastors is right otherwise it's three minutes otherwise it's very difficult yes right exactly
02:56:16 exactly five watches
03:04:04 well I imagine one or two questions mr. Miller there are mr. Sherman yes not not very many but some
03:04:28 I think there a couple of questions at least knock yes just another thank you very much for coming back just just one or two but probably means four or five but first of
03:04:39 probably means four or five but first of all do you remember did you have sliding doors in your flat between the kitchen and the living room yes you did what were they made of do you know I believe it was wood wood were they open on the
03:04:51 it was wood wood were they open on the night of the fire or were they shot we were used to keep them open all the time right before you and your mother left the flat do you remember whether there
03:05:04 the flat do you remember whether there was a conversation with Miriam and yeah laughter CRB is about the plan what you were going to do so I I had shouted to
03:05:20 were going to do so I I had shouted to my dad that we need to leave my dad had then gone up to everyone at that point everyone was in one small space because
03:05:31 everyone was in one small space because this motor cornered us in and I believe he was he was explaining the plan to Dan I only thing I could think of was to
03:05:43 I only thing I could think of was to grab my mom and make sure she's ready and take her out did you have a discussion with the Afro see hobbies no I I didn't what about
03:05:56 see hobbies no I I didn't what about Miriam I just I think I I just mentioned in general to everyone that we need to leave now that's about it we don't have
03:06:07 leave now that's about it we don't have any discussions it was we didn't have time for discussion and do you remember where you last saw them in the flat where were they in the flat when you lost so everyone was crowded around the
03:06:20 lost so everyone was crowded around the kitchen
03:06:21 kitchen my dad was more towards the kitchen sink which was by the entrance of the hallway if you go through the kitchen he was he
03:06:34 if you go through the kitchen he was he was there I think the last thing I saw him doing was just rewetting two towels in preparation to leave do you remember where the rusty
03:06:47 leave do you remember where the rusty Arby's sisters were at that time I believe one of them was sitting on top of the worktop which is directly by by the kitchen window so we had a workshop
03:07:00 the kitchen window so we had a workshop which covered that section one of them was sitting on top of there and the other one was standing by her by do you remember which which who was sitting and
03:07:11 remember which which who was sitting and who was standing no I can't remember which way it was and where was Miriam at that time do you remember she was with her mum I think she was from what I
03:07:24 her mum I think she was from what I remember she was at the so where where the sliding doors would slide to close off the kitchen from the living room I believe she was there on the she's still
03:07:36 believe she was there on the she's still on the safer with her mum no not under sofa Holland so she issue is off the sofa so we're so literally where where
03:07:47 sofa so we're so literally where where the kitchen and the living room is divided standing there and what about Marian's mum they were together they were together yes
03:08:15 the occupants of flat 202 was young were a young Italian couple did you know them
03:08:26 a young Italian couple did you know them not I didn't know them I had seen them on one or two occasions I just said hi they were fairly new to the tower and I
03:08:38 they were fairly new to the tower and I only saw them on the two occasions quite early in the morning while we were going to work I presumed they were going to work as well right they were old guitar D I didn't know them by name didn't know
03:08:52 D I didn't know them by name didn't know the man I know I only learned of their names after the fire okay did you see them on the night of the fire at all no I didn't you didn't know when you got
03:09:05 I didn't you didn't know when you got down and told the firefighter about those who had been left in your flat did you mention to the firefighter that there were also others on the top floor who needed rescuing I I didn't know I I
03:09:21 who needed rescuing I I didn't know I I wasn't sure if there was anyone left on the top floor because we we stayed in our flat for considerable amount of time people from the other flats could have
03:09:32 people from the other flats could have left they could have I didn't know what they had done and when we left we didn't see anyone I'm sorry to jump around when
03:09:44 see anyone I'm sorry to jump around when you were in the flat and the lady and he was mr. cerasale he was discussing the helicopter because he told us before was there a discussion about breaking down the gate to the roof I can't remember
03:09:59 the gate to the roof I can't remember that discussion at me
03:10:06 paragraph 18 of your statement I'm sorry to ask you to get back to this you actually refer to
03:10:22 hearing noises from the vent on Fridays
03:10:28 and wouldn't be sorted out until the following Monday does that mean that you you would you'd go to work on Monday and come back and it was fixed or was it
03:10:39 come back and it was fixed or was it fixed by Monday I was over the weekend no it would be fixed while we're at work so when we come back we just notice days right I'm not making the noise anymore right does that mean you have a sleepers
03:10:51 right does that mean you have a sleepers weekend yes yeah I think what seemed to be quite common is the TMO wouldn't really send anyone to do repairs unless
03:11:02 really send anyone to do repairs unless they had more than one complaint so several people would have to complain before they actually took action right did you go to your neighbors - not regarding the fence but regarding
03:11:16 - not regarding the fence but regarding other other problems yeah I was interested in the vents finally mr. nadir and it is finally I've read in your statement that you are or were at
03:11:28 your statement that you are or were at the time of the fire a second Dan black belt Taekwondo champion yes does that are we in with the Chairman take from that that you are a or were at the time of the fire a
03:11:39 a or were at the time of the fire a physically fit young man yes I would say my fitness levels were above average
03:11:51 and with that mr. never it only remains for me to thank you enormous Lee for your help that you've given to the inquiry in your written statements and this morning I know it's jolly difficult
03:12:03 this morning I know it's jolly difficult to come here and talk about the night but we are extremely grateful to you and you've been extremely valuable to us so thank you very much indeed thank you very much my questions mr. chairman no
03:12:15 very much my questions mr. chairman no further questions all right well Miss another right sorry I was just about to
03:12:33 picked the cue up from the gentleman actually rather than for mr. ham I apologize I would say I think mr. house only anticipated what I was going to say he was and there is a final question mr. Leno and I'm sorry I was more interested
03:12:45 Leno and I'm sorry I was more interested in your physical fitness than this final question but I will ask it anyway is there anything about the events of the night over and above what's in your statement of statements and over and above what you've told us today about
03:12:57 above what you've told us today about what you saw some had smelt observed on the night that you think it's important for the Chairman to know I think there is something which I've prepared and
03:13:10 is something which I've prepared and I'll try and get it across as best as I can
03:13:14 can so having having been in the beam in the fire that night and not knowing what was
03:13:26 fire that night and not knowing what was going on outside or on the other floors of the tower and having heard the testimony of the firefighters I feel
03:13:37 testimony of the firefighters I feel that the residents were fatally let down having been in contact with the firefighters outside during my while I was inside the tower I was on several
03:13:52 was inside the tower I was on several occasions told that they were on their way to get us and I feel that this was false hope
03:14:02 and I feel it's the false hope which prevents it quite a number of people from escaping the tower that night so
03:14:15 from escaping the tower that night so the image that we had being in the tower was that the building was swarmed with firefighters enough for everyone to have
03:14:27 firefighters enough for everyone to have some assistance not just few people that were on the lower floors to get their assistance I feel that if we were told
03:14:39 assistance I feel that if we were told the truth if even after the point where the firefighters knew that they wouldn't be able to reach those that were on the upper floors if they would have just told us that there's nothing we can do
03:14:52 told us that there's nothing we can do and do whatever you can at least people would have had time to make the decision for themselves to get out or to stay into the in the building and it's a I
03:15:06 into the in the building and it's a I feel that it was too late for them to make any decision once they were trapped I mean
03:15:20 even if those who were trapped beyond the point of having any way to escape if they knew that the firefighters were not
03:15:33 they knew that the firefighters were not coming to get them or if they didn't have any way of escape they could have at least prepared themselves for what was to come so they could have at least
03:15:45 was to come so they could have at least prayed if they're a religious person they could have at least prepared himself for the pain that they were about to go through so I think that's quite important and I think the key word
03:15:57 quite important and I think the key word in it is false hope thank you mister thank you very much for all your evidence and I repeat my thanks to you
03:16:11 evidence and I repeat my thanks to you as I said before for your coming here today and assisting the Chairman with our investigations thank you very much I'd read my things mr. nadda you've given your evidence very clearly and
03:16:22 given your evidence very clearly and carefully and for that we are very grateful it was obviously a very horrendous experience and if I may I just like to express my admiration for the way in which you acted that evening
03:16:35 the way in which you acted that evening and I'm sure your father would be very proud of you thank you very much means a lot
03:16:40 lot thank you he'll come
03:16:56 that's probably a convenient point is mr. Miller mr. chairman it is yes and we move to our next witness who will be flora Neda for his mother yes at
03:17:09 flora Neda for his mother yes at whatever time you're well and I think we would all benefit from having the usual yes hours take lunch socialites a 24 to 20 pass to is impossible