Dr Naomi Lee gives evidence about living in flat 195 on the 22nd floor of Grenfell Tower. She describes problems with windows after refurbishment (gaps never fixed), the ventilation system malfunctions, and her experience on the night of the fire including 999 calls and escape. Lee Chapman's statement is read in describing his experience remotely from Malaysia.
00:05:56 yes mr. minute good afternoon mr. chairman our next witness is dr. Naomi Lee and I please call dr. Lee
00:06:25 I just thought we sincerely and truly I do solemnly sincerely sincerely and truly declare and affirm
00:06:36 truly declare and affirm declare a full but the evidence I shall give shall be the truth the whole truth please sit down make
00:06:58 the whole truth please sit down make yourself comfortable there's a bit tongue-twisters some of these I'm sorry sorry remember just make yourself comfortable yes no mr. minute the
00:07:10 comfortable yes no mr. minute the afternoon dr. Lee and can you please give us your full name my full name is Charlie and also enormous now Amelia no me and first can I start by thanking you
00:07:22 me and first can I start by thanking you very much for coming here today and giving evidence to the inquiry and helping us with our investigations we very much appreciate your doing say there may be times this afternoon when
00:07:33 there may be times this afternoon when recalling the events of the night may be difficult and I understand that so if you need a break at any time what do you have to do is say and we can take a break we will aim to take a 30-minute
00:07:45 break we will aim to take a 30-minute break at three o'clock okay for you and we may use some of that time to read in some other evidence in the meantime if
00:07:56 some other evidence in the meantime if my questions my questions are supposed to be short and simple sometimes they're not and if you have any difficulty understanding a question that I'm asking it I'm happy to repeat it or to ask the question in a different way okay so just
00:08:08 question in a different way okay so just to say please repeat the question yeah now you've done - yep yep I should also
00:08:21 now you've done - yep yep I should also say that when you're answering my questions it may be that I'm not always looking at you and that's because I'm looking at the screen or your statement but I am very much listening to what you're telling us sometimes please don't think I'm being rude if I'm not looking
00:08:33 think I'm being rude if I'm not looking at you yeah now you've done two statements for the inquiry and the first one is iws five one five that's five zeros 505 is that the first
00:08:44 that's five zeros 505 is that the first page of that first statement dr. Lee yes yes and you can either use the paper version on your desk or the monitor on the monitor on the desk most people find
00:08:55 the monitor on the desk most people find it easier to use the screen can I ask you please to go to the last page of that statement which is page 12 yes it is and we can see that the statement is
00:09:07 is and we can see that the statement is dated the 26th of April 2018 and there's a signature there can you confirm that that is your signature yeah it is my signature thank you and have you had an opportunity to read this statement
00:09:18 opportunity to read this statement recently yes I do I read in last week right and can you confirm for us that the contents of this statement of true yes I can confirm that and mr. chairman
00:09:32 yes I can confirm that and mr. chairman there are seven exhibits to this statement and I'll just read them into the record if I can it's iws in all cases five zeroes five twenty page two 513 page two 516 page
00:09:47 twenty page two 513 page two 516 page two 514 pages 2 to 10 page 517 pages 2 to 5 page 512 ok 512 page 2 and 518 page 2 those are
00:10:01 ok 512 page 2 and 518 page 2 those are exhibits 1 through 2 7 respectively to dr. Lee's first statement dr. leave also I think provided a second or supplemental statement to the inquiry
00:10:14 supplemental statement to the inquiry under iws at quadruple 0 1 1 5 2 that's dated the 23rd of October 2018 is that
00:10:25 dated the 23rd of October 2018 is that the first page on the screen er of that supplemental statement yes yes it is and if you can turn please to the last page of that which is page 3 you can see a
00:10:36 of that which is page 3 you can see a signature is that your signature yes have you read this statement recently yes also last week yes and can you confirm that the contents of this
00:10:47 confirm that the contents of this supplemental statement are also true yes I can confirm thank you now I'm going to turn back to your first statement if I can please and ask you some general
00:10:58 can please and ask you some general questions first of all I think it's right that you moved into flat one-nine-five I've Grenfell tower on the 22nd floor on the 15th of December 2011 yes that's
00:11:12 the 15th of December 2011 yes that's correct
00:11:12 correct did you own the leasehold yes as at June 2017 and who lived with you at flat at flat 195 grenfell tower so my husband
00:11:25 flat 195 grenfell tower so my husband Lee left it with me and my cousin media also lived there at the same time is that Lydia liao yes Lydia okay yeah now can I please ask you to be shown the
00:11:38 can I please ask you to be shown the exhibit number two to your first statement that's iws 503 page 2 which is a floor plan of your home flat one nine
00:11:50 a floor plan of your home flat one nine five
00:11:56 OWS Quint equals zero five one three page two
00:12:16 thank you just to confirm this is the exhibit number two to your first statement yes yeah yes if you not it doesn't come out on the on the transcript so you have to
00:12:27 on the on the transcript so you have to say yes yes okay all right now we can see that North is at the top of the of the page and obviously west towards Lattimer station is is on the left hand
00:12:41 Lattimer station is is on the left hand side that's the West first question is what where any modifications made to the layout of the flat well you mean sorry where any modification each Ange is made
00:12:53 where any modification each Ange is made to the to the layout the arrangement remained yes I didn't do any change I bought a flat like like how it like has me it's like soup bedrooms like okay
00:13:05 has me it's like soup bedrooms like okay so so I didn't actually don't know when they made the trench right as at the night of the fire 14th of June yeah 2070 was this the layout yes that's
00:13:17 yeah 2070 was this the layout yes that's olio
00:13:18 olio it was now if I can ask you to be shown well one will come back to that in due course I think but it can I ask you to be shown the next exhibit which is exhibit three OWS five one six page two
00:13:38 and that is the layout of floor 22 your floor I think yeah and you very helpfully shown who lived in which flats around you on that floor yeah I just I
00:13:50 around you on that floor yeah I just I just want to run through those with you if I can first of all in flat 193 in the bottom left-hand corner of the southwest
00:14:01 bottom left-hand corner of the southwest corner of your tower you say there's a family of five and I think it's right to correct me if I'm wrong that was the to care family was it and that was a family
00:14:12 care family was it and that was a family of five two adults and three children three girls yes that's correct and then at flat moving until aquas flat
00:14:23 and then at flat moving until aquas flat 192 you've put nura and her family there is that is that neuro Jamal Hashim Kadir and their three children yes okay and
00:14:35 and their three children yes okay and then moving on to 191 you've put nanny yes she's a nanny off one nice three
00:14:46 yes she's a nanny off one nice three family yes she's the grandmother of the three girl three two care girls yes did you know her name no actually I don't remember
00:14:58 remember and they was Syria did you know that okay and then flat one nine six at the
00:15:10 okay and then flat one nine six at the top right hand corner which is the the northeast of the tower you put Maria and mother yeah and I think that's the lady you now know was
00:15:21 think that's the lady you now know was called Maryam Mary Ellen guara and her mother as lyall Gauri is that right yes yes correct and then one nine five is you yep and then at 194 you've
00:15:35 five is you yep and then at 194 you've got Tony and is that Tony or Anthony dissin yes okay so that's that's very clear now before I come to the events of the night
00:15:47 before I come to the events of the night 13th 14th of June 2017 I just want to ask you one or two questions about the building before the fire happened can I ask you please to go to page three
00:15:59 can I ask you please to go to page three of your statement paragraph 19
00:16:11 and I just want to pick up one topic you say there you say before the night of the fire I remember the ventilation system coming on at random times I could
00:16:24 system coming on at random times I could remember it going on continuously for that for a whole night on one occasion it is very noisy and we could hear it from our flat we know that when the ventilation was on the lift was shown as
00:16:35 ventilation was on the lift was shown as out of service we always had to call the council to come and fix it when we heard ventilation we always thought oh no not again because it affected us when the lifts were not working now just a few
00:16:47 were not working now just a few questions over and above what you said there first do you remember when did you first notice that the ventilation shaft made a ventilation system made noise you
00:17:00 made a ventilation system made noise you mean a very first time yes yes do you think it was before the refurbishment or
00:17:11 think it was before the refurbishment or after the refurbishment
00:17:19 a common by Colin fuller okay now you say that you could hear it from your flat yeah
00:17:28 flat yeah whereabouts in your flat could you hear the ventilation system when it was going so it's by the door there's a week or shoot cup showroom right basically the
00:17:42 shoot cup showroom right basically the ventilations is next to it so you can hear it quite clearly and because a desire for a flat so the the noise would just would just pass through the whole
00:17:58 just would just pass through the whole flat from the corridor in the flat so you can just hear it in every room it's not only the first room you can hear you actually can hear it even you are in the living room which is the furthest point
00:18:09 living room which is the furthest point from the door right okay and so was it coming from outside the flat through the essentially through the front door no
00:18:23 essentially through the front door no it's it's it's more from the wall right
00:18:35 it's it's it's more from the wall right because it's there's only a war between the ventilation and our flat so you don't really need to it's not really
00:18:47 don't really need to it's not really coming from the core from the hallways because you it's basically a powerful flat does that make sense yes yes I see
00:19:01 and do you remember whether there was anything that would trigger the ventilation system working in this way before the night of the fire
00:19:21 we only know that it's related to a hot water system sometimes sometimes you hear it and then you don't have hot water and sometimes you hear and then
00:19:34 water and sometimes you hear and then leave this not working but I'm not really sure what what's the reason the triggers the ventilation system not sure
00:19:45 triggers the ventilation system not sure about that those are you just coming randomly you say in your statement four lines down within paragraph 19 but you always have
00:19:56 within paragraph 19 but you always have to call the council to come and fix it and when they did come and fix it and then they buddy tell you what was causing the problem no not really okay now I just want to
00:20:13 no not really okay now I just want to show you a photograph taken by one of our experts one of the inquiries experts yeah which is the interior of the fire of the tower after the fire doesn't it doesn't show anything distressing but I
00:20:24 doesn't show anything distressing but I will just ought to give a general warning yeah that we will see a photograph that's fine if that's all right with you is it yeah okay this is BL a quadruple zero two five one three and two five one four these are
00:20:37 and two five one four these are photographs which had been shaving or in this morning and earlier these are taken on floor six and they show the ventilation shafts on either side of
00:20:48 ventilation shafts on either side of that floor the North and the South walls of the communal lobbies and you could see in the left-hand photograph the ventilation openings are at the top near
00:21:00 ventilation openings are at the top near the ceiling and in the right hand photograph were towards the floor but those the ventilation shafts that you're you're referring to you're the one on
00:21:12 you're referring to you're the one on the left the one hilarities so on basically that's next to all flat yes did you ever stand out in the lobby when
00:21:23 did you ever stand out in the lobby when these shafts were running in the way you've described and here here well they were like when you were standing next to them do you mean how about I was just by
00:21:35 them do you mean how about I was just by the ventilation yes yes I did have yes how loud was it
00:21:45 how long it's a noise you cannot ignore
00:21:57 how long it's a noise you cannot ignore okay was it a three taken example was it louder than a vacuum cleaner it's probably balsam label right okay
00:22:08 probably balsam label right okay and did you ever feel air moving in or out of these ventilation shafts when you heard them running no no and was the
00:22:22 heard them running no no and was the sound you heard always the same yes always assumed yeah did you notice that that sound did you notice the ventilation shafts running in that way
00:22:33 ventilation shafts running in that way at any particular time of the day no it's just happened randomly so it can be in mid overnight and it can be in the
00:22:46 in mid overnight and it can be in the morning can be enough ternoon anytime
00:22:53 when they were running did you ever feel any movement of air in the communal Lobby no and you said earlier that
00:23:05 Lobby no and you said earlier that sometimes the lift would stop and you also say that in paragraph 19 year statement was that both lifts or any one user is both lift okay that's why we had
00:23:16 user is both lift okay that's why we had to walk downstairs did the activation of the ventilation shaft have any effect on
00:23:27 the ventilation shaft have any effect on the operation of anything in your flat no not really or anything else actually sorry the hot water the hot water so if lots of if that's what you mean
00:23:40 so if lots of if that's what you mean look so you'd really even the ventilation was on then sometimes we just don't have hot water system and we can't have hot water at all yes and did
00:23:52 can't have hot water at all yes and did you never notice anything or any effect elsewhere in the building the lift right part from the lift
00:24:02 no so men's well it's obviously you know it is a lift it's not working cause we needed to use it but others not really
00:24:16 needed to use it but others not really know
00:24:21 now do you remember a time when your husband lee chapman called the fire brigade out because the smoke extractor
00:24:32 brigade out because the smoke extractor system or smoke ventilation system was working was running before 5:00 yes no I don't remember okay I remember he always
00:24:45 don't remember okay I remember he always called TM all right so when the ventilation system was was running in the way you've described it and do you
00:24:56 the way you've described it and do you remember ever hearing anything particular in the main lobby of the building you mean our wall flow on the ground yes I do on the ground floor no I
00:25:10 ground yes I do on the ground floor no I don't remember though okay can I ask you to look at paragraph 22 of your statement page also page 3 your first statement you say when I moved into Grenville tower I was told all the doors
00:25:23 Grenville tower I was told all the doors were fire doors however when we changed front doors the guy who replaced the door told us the old one was not a fart or we were quite shocked about this and then you explained that we've got the guarantees for the new door
00:25:35 guarantees for the new door the new door that you put in did that close automatically yes it did and on the night of the fire that was it working that it closed automatically yes
00:25:47 working that it closed automatically yes did the original door that you had automatically closed or did you have to pull it shut it doesn't close automatically didn't cause automatically
00:25:58 automatically didn't cause automatically okay I just want to ask you one or two questions about the windows in your in your flat after the refurbishment yeah do you remember during the refurbishment
00:26:11 do you remember during the refurbishment the windows in your flat were replaced yes they were for everybody do you remember whether after the windows were replaced you experienced
00:26:24 windows were replaced you experienced any particular problems with the windows yes we did so basically doing with so
00:26:40 yes we did so basically doing with so after there if after they put enough windows in you can see they didn't see we properly and it came to really pop up
00:26:53 we properly and it came to really pop up when when when it was really cold one night and we just hear the whistling through all the windows and then we found out actually it's not only the
00:27:04 found out actually it's not only the side and they didn't seal properly it's underneath entire the frame underneath there's actually a gap between the wall and the window frame and that's causing
00:27:16 and the window frame and that's causing a problem because we always wonder like how come we had the treat I think it's a triple triple glazier window installed but this was still quite a lot dots in
00:27:28 but this was still quite a lot dots in the house and then we found out actually there also like those gaps and and then we had a look into all the windows we
00:27:39 we had a look into all the windows we found out all the windows have some programming of flat and that was pretty shocking to us because you expected the
00:27:51 shocking to us because you expected the new one would be better than the old one because the old one was pretty bad and then you realize actually they are not they didn't do the job properly and we
00:28:03 they didn't do the job properly and we were not sure because we were the first few flats they installed the windows so they didn't bother to do it properly that makes sense first of all was it all
00:28:16 that makes sense first of all was it all the windows in your flat that had this problem about the gaps or yes awesome okay was there any particular window that was worse than others
00:28:26 well no they're little pretty bad okay and you described a minute ago the a gap under the under the window at the bottom yeah just to be clear is that underneath
00:28:37 yeah just to be clear is that underneath of the windowsill or on top of the windowsill where the frame meets the windowsill
00:28:52 is underneath of frame right so it's between the frame and the wall because they're there the way they replace the window is basically like they took the
00:29:06 window is basically like they took the entire frame like oh so they didn't take her entire frame of the old window out they only take the only two cowl of windows and then they put the frame on
00:29:18 windows and then they put the frame on to the old frame so it's sort of cover it like elite so it's the lead you see and you can feel the gap between the
00:29:29 and you can feel the gap between the lead and the war it was clear enough for you it is clear thank you and how big was the gap and on average do you think average I think it's at least three four
00:29:43 average I think it's at least three four millimeters and at least and speak enough for wind to come yeah did you or your husband do you remember ever tell
00:29:55 your husband do you remember ever tell the TMO or all the contractors about the gaps
00:29:59 gaps yes we did we called we call TMO and they told us to inform ridin the contract the the basically company who
00:30:12 contract the the basically company who installed Windows here and and it took us a while and eventually someone from ridin and someone from TMO came to visit
00:30:23 ridin and someone from TMO came to visit us and we explained what happened to them they say those they'll come to fix it but Lenin with it did it ever get
00:30:35 it but Lenin with it did it ever get fixed did those gaps no they never get fixed no not before firing though so on the night of the fire is what you're saying that there's the gaps that you experienced you told us about just now were there yes
00:30:47 were there yes they all know hmm thank you
00:30:51 same page of your statement page three can I ask you to look please at paragraph 20 and 21 you said 20 before the fire there was a poster next to the lift saying in the event of the fire do not use the lift
00:31:03 event of the fire do not use the lift stay indoors and shut all the windows and doors when you say poster what do you mean by poster was it up like a paper poster or a not be good in an a4
00:31:20 paper poster or a not be good in an a4 size right okay a sticker like a sticker thing okay I mean I wonder whether the witness could be shown inq 93
00:31:40 is that more well first of all is that familiar yeah is that what you're referring to I think so yes okay do you ever recall seeing a typed or handwritten paper poster like a
00:31:52 or handwritten paper poster like a temporary poster stuck to a wall no right we're in the building did you see this some design do you remember our
00:32:05 this some design do you remember our moments between the lift the the wall are wrong the Leafs either by the side of the lift or the one in the middle I can't remember
00:32:16 one in the middle I can't remember clearly yeah was that on your floor yes did you ever see it anywhere else in the building
00:32:25 building well I presumed they will have it every floor that's hole but probably a wrong floor if they have one did you ever see
00:32:37 floor if they have one did you ever see that a column below
00:32:44 apart from this notice dr. Lee were you ever given any information from any organization or any any individual about what you should do if there was a fire
00:32:55 what you should do if there was a fire in the block yes house wells a written of some media and the
00:33:15 in textbooks right so no yeah just a
00:33:26 in textbooks right so no yeah just a joke no not really from a new organization right do you say textbooks did you have a particular interest in in
00:33:37 did you have a particular interest in in reading up about fire safety yeah it's just a general like knowledge but if you live in the high building because the smoke can kill you right what was what
00:33:49 smoke can kill you right what was what was the what was your under your understanding as at the night of the fire about what you should do in the event of a fire in the block my understanding is to stay in the flat
00:34:01 my understanding is to stay in the flat and close all the window and try to seal all the gaps and wait for someone to come to rescue or rightful way for the
00:34:14 come to rescue or rightful way for the alarm like the entire situation has been resolved yes
00:34:29 if I can ask you to go to paragraph 23 of your statement you say the only visit I had from the London Fire Brigade was when they came to install the smoke alarm in the corridor they didn't really
00:34:41 alarm in the corridor they didn't really give any advice at that point for what I can remember they just said the smoke alarm would work and if there's no battery they can come to replace it do you remember when that visit was no I
00:34:55 do you remember when that visit was no I can't undo exactly how long before the fire do you think at least two or three years before a fire was that smoke alarm
00:35:11 years before a fire was that smoke alarm the only alarm or smoke or fire alarm you had in your flat yes that's the only one we had at the time of the fire were
00:35:22 one we had at the time of the fire were you aware of any other smoke or fire alarms in the building
00:35:31 I knew less one in the hallway in the lobby area you're not nuts I remember
00:35:42 lobby area you're not nuts I remember you say you knew there was one in the hallway did somebody tell you that or was that something you assumed no it's just I can see it oh I knew lifts what
00:35:53 just I can see it oh I knew lifts what now right I wonder if we can just go back to the picture it's the photograph we looked at before which is and this will this will work BL a quadruple zero
00:36:04 will this will work BL a quadruple zero two five one three we can also see two or five hundred four as well the two five one three will do just as well
00:36:24 what can we see there dr. Lee in the in the communal hallway and and there this is floor six yeah assuming the same as truth floor 22 what can we see there which which shows us that there was a
00:36:38 which which shows us that there was a fire alarm on the ceiling the white yeah detector on the ceiling yes did anybody ever tell you that the white detector on
00:36:50 ever tell you that the white detector on the ceiling was a fire alarm no right so when you say you thought it was a foot that there was a fire alarm in the communal Lobby that was your assumption yes okay now do you remember whether
00:37:11 yes okay now do you remember whether there was ever before the refurbishment a central fire alarm system at Granville Tower yes I I remember there was one because basically we it happened once I
00:37:29 because basically we it happened once I just
00:37:34 the alarm system gon come off so again the lift was not working and it was
00:37:45 the lift was not working and it was really loud actually it was like a popper file alarm system so everyone can hear and and I remember we had to code
00:37:57 hear and and I remember we had to code of fire brigade basically they have a special key to release it to to they'll have to come and check this actually no fire and then they have a key to turn it
00:38:09 fire and then they have a key to turn it off so that's how I remember there was one system working how long after you moved in to Grenfell tower into 7 2011
00:38:23 moved in to Grenfell tower into 7 2011 do you remember that that event not not so long after so it must be like 2012 right do you remember what happened but
00:38:36 right do you remember what happened but did people leave or did people stay what do they do do you remember I I don't know most people just stay okay yeah now paragraph
00:38:51 people just stay okay yeah now paragraph 24 of your statement you say in addition to the smoke alarm we had a fire extinguisher and a fire blanket in the kitchen
00:38:58 kitchen there was a small gas meter thing next to the hob to tell us if there was a gas leak as our hablas gas
00:39:09 who first of all who was it who provided you or the flat with these fire protective measures there were low when
00:39:25 protective measures there were low when I moved team that we moved in all the equipment's a fire extinguisher blanket and look at the gas detector
00:39:37 blanket and look at the gas detector thing that there were all in the kitchen when I moved him and so all we did is to trick either there the extinguisher is still not expired and did you keep
00:39:53 still not expired and did you keep checking the fire extinguisher was up-to-date throughout your yes yours you're living there yeah okay did any did anybody ever give you any advice about those particular protective
00:40:05 advice about those particular protective measures such as telling you they were up-to-date or enough no because we are lease holders so I presume we had to
00:40:18 lease holders so I presume we had to check it ourselves it's our responsibility yeah come on out turn to the events of the night of the fire itself yep
00:40:30 itself yep do you remember who was in your flat on the night of the 13th 14th of June 2017 sure was Lydia and me were in a flat and
00:40:46 sure was Lydia and me were in a flat and your husband I think was in Malaysia yes he was on a business trip yes and paragraph 29 of your statement if we can just look at that you say top of page
00:40:58 just look at that you say top of page for that
00:41:04 you first noticed there was something wrong when you were yes I was in my bedroom waiting for a phone call from Lee who was in Malaysia at that time and in the next paragraph you you say in the
00:41:18 in the next paragraph you you say in the last sentence I think that I smelt this around 115 to 117 as I was messaging Lee at that same time as I noticed it and you also say in the same in the paragraph before that you'd smelt
00:41:30 paragraph before that you'd smelt burning plastic at that time do you remember seeing any signs of smoke no I'm sorry you mean from the window yes
00:41:44 I'm sorry you mean from the window yes well you anywhere no a lot point no no I'm just going back to paragraph 29 having established the time you say
00:41:56 having established the time you say halfway done you say I started smelling something funny I couldn't tell whether it was inside or outside I went to the window to see if I could see anything unusual I couldn't see anything the smell was unusual there was a smell that
00:42:08 smell was unusual there was a smell that made you definitely think something was wrong it smelt like burning plastic now you were in your bedroom was the window that you went to your bedroom window yes yes yes it's and that's on the north
00:42:20 yes yes it's and that's on the north side of the tower yes and you say you you looked out of the window did you notice anything outside the window so
00:42:34 notice anything outside the window so from that side of window can see the economy and from what I can so it's basically a reflection like orange-ish
00:42:46 basically a reflection like orange-ish refraction on the academy but it was pretty dark basically at last side and you can't really tell if that's just
00:42:57 you can't really tell if that's just really bright light or that was actually a fire right okay see then in paragraph 31 say I went to Lydia's room straight away to see if she smelled something as
00:43:08 away to see if she smelled something as well Lydia was in her bedroom she couldn't smell anything because her window was closed I opened a window and could smell it when the window was open so I was pretty sure it was from outside it was it the
00:43:25 sure it was from outside it was it the same smell that you could smell there then like the burning smell of burning plastic yes and you then say in the next
00:43:37 plastic yes and you then say in the next paragraph I couldn't see any smoke at that point the only unusual thing I could see was from Lydia's bedroom window we saw a little bit of brightness and orange reflection on the wall to the Academy to the right of Lydia's window
00:43:48 Academy to the right of Lydia's window and then you've indicated where that is on nl1 if we can go to NL 1 which is 520 page one I WS 520 page 1
00:44:04 I think you've marked that up to show where you saw the orange brightness like you've marked it to the sub
00:44:16 you've marked it to the sub I suppose the northeast of the tower say did you have to lean out of the window yeah very far to see and when you did
00:44:28 yeah very far to see and when you did see that glow reflected in the Academy surface if you like what did you think it was as I say I can't tell if it's
00:44:42 it was as I say I can't tell if it's just really bright light or it was actually a fire did you notice the presence of the fire brigade at that stage no can't see them from from our
00:44:54 stage no can't see them from from our window can't see with nothing were too high
00:44:57 high could you hear the sound of now fire engines sirens no at paragraph 33 you
00:45:08 engines sirens no at paragraph 33 you say I went out of Lydia's room and called Lee from the hallway I called Lee as soon as I left her room and my record show I called him at 120 I think I went into Lydia's room between 117 and 120
00:45:20 into Lydia's room between 117 and 120 because I did not message or call Lee during this time [Music]
00:45:26 [Music] now first of all can I ask you please to go to iws five one four page 3 it starts at page 2 dr. Lee this is and this is
00:45:39 at page 2 dr. Lee this is and this is your it's an extract from your line messages which is a bit like whatsapp yeah I think it was rather more functionality I think and if you go to
00:45:50 functionality I think and if you go to page 3 I WS 504 page 3
00:46:04 you can see just because we'll be going to this in a bit more detail later but just just to see how this works I think Green is this right Green is incoming
00:46:15 Green is this right Green is incoming from Li to you or from an outsider to you and white is outgoing by you to somebody is that right yes that's correct
00:46:24 correct so the call that you're referring to is that the white box at the bottom left hand corner with the telephone symbol which is got a 107 within it yep that's
00:46:36 which is got a 107 within it yep that's correct
00:46:37 correct okay I'm 120 next to it yeah so does that tell us that there was a call by you lasting one minute and seven seconds at 120 yes okay what exactly prompted
00:46:51 at 120 yes okay what exactly prompted you to make that call Tooley yes
00:47:05 cuz I wasn't sure if I need to call fire brigade okay and then I think you say in your statement of paragraph 37 I called 999 immediately after I called
00:47:21 I called 999 immediately after I called Lee I exhibit my phone records which shows I made the 999 calls as nl5 and this call was made at 121 and indeed we do have the transcript of that which
00:47:34 we do have the transcript of that which is at iron q41 for if we can just go to go to that
00:47:48 I'm sorry 4:71 inq 471
00:48:01 [Music]
00:48:17 now this is a transcript of the call made by you timed at 1:21 24 with a duration of 1 minute and 34 seconds I
00:48:31 duration of 1 minute and 34 seconds I will come to the contents of this in a minute but can I ask you first of all
00:48:43 minute but can I ask you first of all where were you do you remember when you hurt when you made this 999 call well I was standing in the corridor in the flat
00:48:58 was standing in the corridor in the flat ok had you been out of a flat at that stage yet
00:49:03 had you been into the communal lobby of the on the floor at that stage no okay now before I look at the detail of the
00:49:14 now before I look at the detail of the call can I just take you back in your statement you say paragraph 35 this is after your call would leave you told me to call 999 is what you say at the end of 34 and in 35 we say I heard the
00:49:26 of 34 and in 35 we say I heard the ventilation for the building was on at one point I opened the front door to check what was going on in the hallway the ventilation system being on prompted me to check outside to see if both lifts
00:49:37 me to check outside to see if both lifts were working or not no one was in the hallway at this point when I checked the lifts
00:49:44 lifts I remember one was definitely saying out of service that the other one was still working and then you say I called him I called 999 and when you were in the
00:49:54 hallway you say you heard the ventilation going was the noise that it was making the same noise that you'd heard previously that you told us about this afternoon or was it a different
00:50:06 this afternoon or was it a different noise do you remember it was a same same noise yeah was it the same volume yes it was a cell phone was it prompted you to
00:50:19 was a cell phone was it prompted you to open the front door to check
00:50:23 I dunno I suppose I was trying to save this anything happened like if anyone was out and yeah and also definitely
00:50:38 was out and yeah and also definitely because it's sort of like a reaction when you heard a ventilation song then you want to see the lips was working that yes so that's probably why I went
00:50:50 that yes so that's probably why I went out okay and do you remember whether you opened the door and looked out into the hallway before you called nine nine nine
00:51:06 I think I did but because the lift was
00:51:16 yeah but it was pretty once you open a door you do this and then you can see if the Leafs were working on North so yeah I think I think
00:51:28 working on North so yeah I think I think I open a door before I call night enough yes now can I take take you back there to the transcript which is inq four seven one four seven one and you say oh
00:51:45 seven one four seven one and you say oh I'm calling from W 11 1 TQ yes it's Granville tower and then the control room operate you give the flat number one five one nine five and then a third
00:51:58 one five one nine five and then a third of the way down the LF be CRO says 195 can you just smell the smoke there's no smoke coming into your flat at the moment query and you say no we can smell smoke from the lift lift side and then
00:52:13 smoke from the lift lift side and then she gives the advice stay inside it so that you look it looks from that as if you you you'd already been out into the lobby and smelt the smoke is that right
00:52:25 lobby and smelt the smoke is that right yeah because you can do that once you open it you don't have to once you open the door then you can see the Leafs and everything when you said you can smell
00:52:39 everything when you said you can smell smoke from the left side what what what did you mean by that
00:52:46 I'm in the hallway the community area the lobby of our floor yes so yes or
00:52:57 the lobby of our floor yes so yes or lots by the lift yeah so could you smell it at your front door or did you have to go into the lobby to the left side to smell the smoke no you can you can smell it by the
00:53:10 smoke no you can you can smell it by the front door once you open it you have to open it though to smell it
00:53:17 so when I say so when you were referring to lift side what were you what were you trying to get the control room operator to understand by that
00:53:42 [Music]
00:53:45 I think I was trying to say we don't have we don't have smoke inside a flat and once we open the door then you can
00:54:01 and once we open the door then you can see very foggy it's very very popular not sorry very light for like very light and you can smell something not right and to me that lot smells only coming
00:54:14 and to me that lot smells only coming from the hallway which is where the lift was so I was just trying to say oh we can smell it from outside of that in
00:54:28 can smell it from outside of that in that area but we can't smell anything inside the flat yes and just following that answer a bit more you you say once
00:54:40 that answer a bit more you you say once you open the door you can see very light fog where in the communal lobby could you see that well let me ask it in a
00:54:56 you see that well let me ask it in a different way was it everywhere or was it just in a in a particular place no it's just everywhere in the lobby but it's very light like if you don't if
00:55:09 it's very light like if you don't if you're not familiar with the building you might not think that's there's a light there's a small clue it's not like really smoky it's just very make you
00:55:20 really smoky it's just very make you feel like a big blur a little bit do you remember noticing where the smoke was coming from
00:55:32 no you can't tell you you can't retell where he's from but if you asked me now I was thinking from the staircase right
00:55:44 I was thinking from the staircase right did you notice any smoke coming out of the ventilation shafts that were operating no I don't remember that no I don't remember seeing her did you
00:55:58 no I don't remember seeing her did you remember seeing any movement of the smoke in a particular direction no what did the smell smell like was it okay let
00:56:20 did the smell smell like was it okay let me was it the same smell that you'd smell when you put your head out of the window in your bedroom or from Lydia's room earlier no it's different how how was it different the smoke inside in the lot in
00:56:33 different the smoke inside in the lot in the lobby areas it's just like it doesn't smell not toxic Oh a lot time to me you just smell like someone's burning
00:56:46 me you just smell like someone's burning wood so 10 miles away and you can smell a little bit right now kind of burning smell but from my window from the window
00:56:57 smell but from my window from the window pilot in the room the smell you can smell is definitely toxic toxic no is more plastic ish so you knows that you
00:57:10 more plastic ish so you knows that you think something in your flat has burned nice
00:57:28 and then you go back to the call if we can pair I and q47 one perhaps about halfway down that page you say or you're
00:57:43 halfway down that page you say or you're told okay then yeah if you just stay inside and just keep your door and window shut we're dealing with a fire it's actually on I'll just tell you what floor it's on just a second so the fires on the fourth floor you say okay the
00:57:57 on the fourth floor you say okay the files on the fourth floor if there's any problems if you know the any smoke starts coming in ring us back but we're dealing with it on the fourth floor and then you say okay so you suggest us to stay in the flat right and the CRA
00:58:09 to stay in the flat right and the CRA says yeah just stay where you are unless things change what floor did you say was on 22nd yeah now you'll be fine up there and we're dealing with it now okay and then the call ends what were
00:58:26 okay and then the call ends what were your thoughts at that point at the end of that call about about the advice you'd received and then put a different way what did you think you should do as a result of that advice well I don't
00:58:37 a result of that advice well I don't know I should stay in a flat and open on uttering course all the windows okay now after that call you say on page five of
00:58:51 after that call you say on page five of your statement paragraph forty you say I open the door to tell neighbors there is a fire but 999 said to stay inside and
00:59:08 a fire but 999 said to stay inside and you say I saw nura Miriam and her mum and Tony Nora asked what happened I said there is a fire it's on the fourth floor but 999 say stay indoors we should be
00:59:20 but 999 say stay indoors we should be fine Miriam was panicking and said no it's in our kitchen I was shocked and and I'll come back to the rest of that if I need to in a minute but um first
00:59:33 if I need to in a minute but um first first of all
00:59:37 what made you open your door to tell your neighbors there was a fire you remember no I just thought it was the
00:59:50 remember no I just thought it was the right thing to do and do you remember where you were standing when you first saw Nora Miriam and her mum and Tony
01:00:01 saw Nora Miriam and her mum and Tony Tony dissin I was standing by the door you're standing by your front door yeah from ok and where were they they all
01:00:13 from ok and where were they they all come into the middle of the communal Lobby or or what had happened no everyone is so basically before I open the door I can hear people I couldn't
01:00:25 the door I can hear people I couldn't hear my neighbors you can hear the door like open and closed so I presume they were wondering what happened like me then then I open a door and I saw
01:00:37 then then I open a door and I saw neighbors saw them pretty much everyone standing by their door just so what's going on and so that's why I basically
01:00:48 going on and so that's why I basically told them there was a fire but it's on the fourth floor just going through your neighbors first of all Miriam and her mum as LA where
01:01:01 of all Miriam and her mum as LA where were they standing when you saw Miriam you remember at that point so I saw near our first and then I saw Tony and Maria
01:01:17 our first and then I saw Tony and Maria and her mom were basically
01:01:24 trying to get out the layer flat a last stage okay did they have their door open their front door remember no they were basically leaving their
01:01:37 no they were basically leaving their flat a last stage so I was standing in front of my door and then I saw them just coming out and not they look like theyd they look like they just want to
01:01:48 theyd they look like they just want to leave and yeah so what I was up to I talked to in neuro don't make sense the
01:02:00 talked to in neuro don't make sense the old dudes let's start with let's take it in order then you start with Nora yeah it's Norwich Amaro yes yeah and and where was she standing when you saw her first
01:02:10 first I heard door by her door yeah but the flat door sorry right did she say anything to you sure so what happened then I thought there's a fire but it's unenforceable they talked to us they were there any
01:02:23 they talked to us they were there any other family members of hers who were standing with her at that time no I know there was only her coming home what was her reaction to the fire do you remember
01:02:34 her reaction to the fire do you remember do you remember that should be worried and she uh she just went back to her flat
01:02:48 dude did you see her go or try to go into the stairs at that stage no no she looked like she just woke up
01:03:00 no no she looked like she just woke up by any sound or by then I think you say you saw Tony dissin next that was at the right order no I saw and then I saw Marion man again
01:03:13 no I saw and then I saw Marion man again let's go to Mary and they were escaping their flat yeah they look like they are just trying to get out did you because their flat I think is immediately opposite of their front door is opposite
01:03:25 opposite of their front door is opposite yours too a lot to the left yes same side look out of your front door yeah yeah
01:03:37 yeah did you get a chance to see into their flat well now did you notice any smoke coming out of their flat no I didn't notice them okay did Miriam or asla tell you what the
01:03:51 did Miriam or asla tell you what the conditions were like in their flat at that stage so I said the place repeated
01:04:02 that stage so I said the place repeated again saying all they said that the fire is on the fourth floor and we should be okay and then she basically saying to me
01:04:14 okay and then she basically saying to me I know it's in our kitchen the fire is in our kitchen our son what it's a to me I was quite shocking because there's a
01:04:25 I was quite shocking because there's a huge difference between four four and twenty second floor yes
01:04:34 did you could you see into the stairs at that point or was the stair door closed
01:04:45 that point or was the stair door closed the stairs the stair door the door from the lobby into the stairs dooming the
01:04:57 the lobby into the stairs dooming the stairs thyself all the door for the stair the door to the stairs was that closed door was that open close yeah did you see Miriam and asla her mother
01:05:09 did you see Miriam and asla her mother go to the stairs at that point yes how far did they get do you remember how far did it get Oh what do you mean do they
01:05:20 did it get Oh what do you mean do they get to this did they get to open the stair door to go into the stairs they've got like going to a certain just cause the door behind them okay right and when did you see them go into the stairs yes
01:05:32 did you see them go into the stairs yes do you remember seeing maybe you don't but you remember seeing what the the air conditions were like in the stairs with whether there was smoke in the stairs at that point you mean in alcohol in the corridor in the hallway in the stairs
01:05:45 corridor in the hallway in the stairs beyond the beyond the hallway no not when they trying to escape a lot time how long did they how long sorry to ask
01:05:57 how long did they how long sorry to ask it this way do you remember them coming back out of the stairs back into the communal landing no okay and then I
01:06:08 communal landing no okay and then I think finally you said you saw Tony dissin yeah where was he when you saw him he just came out from his door so also a new community area right and with
01:06:22 also a new community area right and with do you remember whether there were any signs of fire coming from his flat no I think that was the last time you saw him yes
01:06:33 yes now you've said in your statement we've seen it that you told them all that 999 had said stay indoors stay inside do you remember how how they reacted her Miriam
01:06:46 remember how how they reacted her Miriam her mother reacted or turned additional or Nura
01:07:03 so Niraj just went into the flat didn't actually react to it Marian and her mom definitely saying
01:07:14 Marian and her mom definitely saying definitely ignore what I said just trying to go because she was very clear
01:07:26 trying to go because she was very clear said clearly said revising the kitchen they're not staying there and toning basically just like war and then just walk back to his flat that's one more
01:07:42 walk back to his flat that's one more question before them before the break do you remember whether the can be smoked conditions in the lobby will were the same as all were different from when you first saw smoke and told the 999
01:07:54 you first saw smoke and told the 999 operator about them a lot time you was still very light though it wasn't it wasn't bad we can see everyone clearly and we don't feel we cannot breathe that
01:08:08 and we don't feel we cannot breathe that or that is it's this mo was very very light smoke a lot of time yeah yes Thank You mr. chairman and don't delete now is I think an appropriate
01:08:20 delete now is I think an appropriate point for the breakup conscious I've taken five minutes not believe we're gonna have a break in your evidence no thank you I can ask you not to talk to
01:08:31 thank you I can ask you not to talk to in on much more evidence please while you're out of the room and we'll resume your evidence at 25 to 4 and in the
01:08:42 your evidence at 25 to 4 and in the meantime you go in the actual will you look after you yep Thank You mr. chair have sees right that everyone should know that we'll come back at stylish yes
01:08:55 know that we'll come back at stylish yes you go to the ocean
01:09:04 now as far as the rest of us are concerned we're going to have 10-minute break and we'll resume at quarter past three and we think there's some reading needs to be done vestage thank you yes
01:09:15 needs to be done vestage thank you yes 3:15
01:19:03 yes mr. chairman indecent reading yes mr. chairman thank you I'm sorry to have prompted that reminder I'm gonna start and probably finish with the statement
01:19:15 and probably finish with the statement of Lee Chapman because now yes lenient moment read it in of course and it's I WS quadruple zero one zero zero zero it's dated the 12th of May 2018 and
01:19:29 it's dated the 12th of May 2018 and there is a statement of truth on the first page on underneath the title and page nine is the end of the statement with his signature at the end as well as
01:19:43 with his signature at the end as well as on every page yes Lee Chapman was dr. Lee and is dr. Lee's husband he moved into grenfell tower in May 2014 to live
01:19:54 into grenfell tower in May 2014 to live with dr. Lee and as she has said and continues to say they lived in flat one-nine-five on the 22nd floor and were living there at the time of the fire and as he as she has said he was in Malaysia
01:20:06 as he as she has said he was in Malaysia at a business conference on that night and he'd left for the conference on the 9th of June 2017 I just want to read into the record specifically some aspects of his statement which deal with
01:20:18 aspects of his statement which deal with both the building and his own experience of dealing with the fire communicating with dr. Lee at a great distance of both time and a physical distance can I start
01:20:31 time and a physical distance can I start with paragraph 11 on page 2 where he deals with the building itself in particular windows he says after the new windows were installed it became clear that they were badly installed the
01:20:43 that they were badly installed the windows themselves seemed fine it was the bad installation and gaps around the windows that caused problems whilst the new windows would double or triple glazed we could feel the wind more with the new windows the window ledge was
01:20:54 the new windows the window ledge was deeper than the old windows and stuck out of the wall more they were a pain and it looked like they'd just been shoved on quickly there were gaps underneath the window ledge and all around the windows I looked to see if I
01:21:06 around the windows I looked to see if I could fill them myself but it was very hard to do on one of the windows I tried to put mastic in one of the gaps to close it the gap was so low it used so much and went through to the
01:21:17 it used so much and went through to the other side of the window I realized this was not a repair job I could do myself and then in the next three paragraphs he describes some email correspondence
01:21:28 he describes some email correspondence which he's exhibited and which will be available with the exhibits to this statement to read and then a paragraph 17 he says I think that someone did conduct an inspection but so many people
01:21:40 conduct an inspection but so many people were coming and going it is difficult to remember in any event the windows had not been repaired at the time of the fire and there are also some photographs mr. chairman which will again be in the record for people to see at paragraph 22
01:21:53 record for people to see at paragraph 22 20 22 he deals with the question of the front doors and he says Naomi and I changed our front door by ourselves I initially got in contact with Claire
01:22:04 initially got in contact with Claire Williams to see if they could change the door she said she would find out when she came back to me she said because we were leaseholders we would need to do it ourselves I'd asked if there was a specific company they used the week of
01:22:15 specific company they used the week of contact she said no so we did it ourselves Claire Williams said that if we do get a new door we would need to make sure it is fire resistance for at least 30 minutes and he describes the
01:22:28 least 30 minutes and he describes the door that they had and then at paragraph 32 to 35 he describes aspects of the
01:22:39 32 to 35 he describes aspects of the fire safety advice he says this is on page five before the refurbishment I understand there was a staple of policy I think when the fire safety people came to the building which I spoke about above they told Naomi about it again
01:22:51 above they told Naomi about it again then and she told me about it after the visit my general understanding of the staple policy was to stay put unless immediate danger was in your flat this was not advice I received from
01:23:02 this was not advice I received from anyone in relation to grenfell tower specifically just my general understanding after the refurbishment we did not have any visits from the fire brigade or anyone else about fire safety we had no direct communication about any
01:23:13 we had no direct communication about any kind of fire safety advice after the refurbishment after the refurbishment and approximately four to six weeks before the fire posters in the communal areas with fire safety advice appeared
01:23:25 areas with fire safety advice appeared they had the stay-put policy on them although I cannot remember the specifics the statehood advice was at the bottom and I can remember the poster contained advice not to use the lifts in the event of a fire but I do not
01:23:37 the event of a fire but I do not remember any of the other content and then at paragraph 47 through 253 pages 6 to 7
01:23:49 to 7 he describes the smoke extraction system and that's worth looking at in detail my understanding is he says there was a smoke extraction system or ventilation system in the tower I have no knowledge
01:24:01 system in the tower I have no knowledge of when it was installed I think the system that was that was there had been upgraded at some point during the refurbishment works the reason I think that this is on the ground floor when the lifts were everything looked new in
01:24:12 the lifts were everything looked new in the boiler room and this is where I esteem the system started the grilles on the 22nd floor looked new the system would come on quite often for no apparent reason it was very loud and we could hear it in our flat when it came
01:24:24 could hear it in our flat when it came on the hot water would stop working in our flat we would have to fail the TMO and tell them and they would have to they would have to do something from their side to sort the hot water out when the smoke extraction system was working the loft the lifts stopped
01:24:36 working the loft the lifts stopped stopped working as well I remember calling the TMO ones and saying the extraction system was on and the lifts to stop working whoever I spoke to said the list would stop working when this make extraction system was working I
01:24:48 make extraction system was working I remember this happening once on a bank holiday weekend on the Saturday we called them and no one came to sort it out until the Tuesday so we had no hot water all weekend I also called the fire
01:24:59 water all weekend I also called the fire brigade once and told them the smoke extractor system was on they came and said they found nothing I cannot remember when this was I think before the refurbishment works my understanding is there was no smoke extraction system with within the flats
01:25:12 extraction system with within the flats the system I'm referring to above was in the hallway we did have extractors in the bathroom and toilet we also had an extract a fan in the kitchen in the top left-hand corner of the window within the window structure when they Amy first called me
01:25:24 structure when they Amy first called me on the night of the fire she said she could smell smoke and also said the extractor system was working and then mr. chairman at paragraphs 59 and following mr. Chapman covers the events
01:25:37 following mr. Chapman covers the events of the night itself I'll just pick up the final paragraph from 69 through to 74 we spoke at 50/50
01:25:48 from 69 through to 74 we spoke at 50/50 a.m. my understanding is they were struggling because smoke was everywhere at that point the content is very hard to remember there was general panic I'll call at 2:59 was the last time I spoke to NER me before she left the flat
01:26:00 spoke to NER me before she left the flat she said she had called 999 and they'd said get out now Amy said she was going to try but she wasn't sure if she would make it I told her to get out don't try to stay in my mind I was quite
01:26:11 don't try to stay in my mind I was quite clear in my head she wouldn't get out alive I was watching it on the BBC news in Malaysia and I remember thinking do I tell her to jump out of the window so she doesn't have to suffer would that be better than dying with smoke inhalation
01:26:22 better than dying with smoke inhalation I can remember family screaming and shouting wanting helicopters to rescue them I was giving advice about staying low covering face Naomi said there is fire coming from both sides we have to
01:26:34 fire coming from both sides we have to go I made one call to non-emergency police number from outside the UK from my hotel room in Malaysia I made this call at that point because I felt that Naomi would not survive coming out alone
01:26:45 Naomi would not survive coming out alone I wanted to call emergency services to say that they were trying to get out I thought they could meet them on the stairwell and maybe my call would prompt them to go up and look for them I was
01:26:56 them to go up and look for them I was trying to work out how to call UK emergency services from Malaysia by looking online and eventually found the number at two one two this was the only option I could find quickly online and
01:27:08 option I could find quickly online and was a non-emergency police number I had also been trying to call family members and friends to ask them to call emergency services but no one picked up I called this number from my hotel room
01:27:19 I called this number from my hotel room an exhibit a print out showing this call and the exhibit sitters at LC 10 I've not had access to this call at the time of making this statement and then in 73 he says I remember saying that Naomi and
01:27:31 he says I remember saying that Naomi and Lydia were trying to get out of the building
01:27:33 building they were asking what flat and floor number they'd come from and how many people had been with them name he called me on my mobile when she got out and I was still on the phone to them I confirmed that she and Lydia were out
01:27:44 confirmed that she and Lydia were out and that everyone else was still in the flat I relayed details of who was left in the flat
01:27:51 seems to chairman that is a figure to read in if it's not inconvenient to dr. Lee then perhaps we can have her back and we can resume her oral evidence well I think can you just write out whether
01:28:03 I think can you just write out whether it is convenient or not first route
01:28:29 [Music]
01:28:41 very much now can we use five minutes or riser phone I can use five minutes yes yes right gone um say miss mr. chairman I
01:28:54 right gone um say miss mr. chairman I shall read Lydia leäôs statement into the record yes thank you and that is iws quinn tuple 0 5 0 5 and there are a number of exhibits to it and i shall
01:29:07 number of exhibits to it and i shall read those in as well those are 509 pages 1 & 2 & 5 those 6 pages 1 & 2 508 pages 1 & 2 510 pages 1
01:29:27 pages 1 & 2 508 pages 1 & 2 510 pages 1 2
01:29:34 one two nine one page I WS five a seven pages one and two and five oh three a one and two five oh one one and two 504
01:29:48 one and two five oh one one and two 504 at one and two and five oh two one oh two five nine exhibits in all thank you the statement is dated the 8th of May 2018 there's a statement of truth on
01:30:01 2018 there's a statement of truth on page one it's signed on every page and it runs for a total of some eight pages she was what is name is cousin and was
01:30:14 she was what is name is cousin and was living with Mamie at 1 9 5 grand felt our on the night of the fire and she describes in detail her experiences of that night she does make the point in
01:30:26 that night she does make the point in paragraph 7 that the front door closed by itself that was the new front door that you've heard was installed by Naomi and Lee and I would read specifically
01:30:39 and Lee and I would read specifically into the record paragraph 16 namely left my room and I went to bed I assumed there was a still awake as she was packing
01:30:48 packing I heard may Amy run out of the front door when she came back she was yelling I was annoyed if she waked me up as I just fallen asleep she said something wasn't right I could hear a fan noise that was loud of going really fast
01:30:59 of going really fast it was coming from the direction of flat-six I hadn't heard that noise before and she describes the 999 call that near me makes at 121 and then at
01:31:13 that near me makes at 121 and then at paragraphs 18 to 26 she describes the action she took when leaving the flat can I pick this up at paragraph 22 she says lots of things seem to happen
01:31:25 she says lots of things seem to happen at the same time the guy who lived in flat 194 that's Toni dissing ran out and said what happened the lady from 1 9 6 that's Mary Miller War II yelled my
01:31:36 that's Mary Miller War II yelled my kitchen is on fire I now think that the fire came from the same side as her flat I only saw the man from flat 194 once described above when I left named his flat
01:31:45 flat the man from one or went back into his flat straight after our conversation the young woman from flat one line six disappeared and I didn't see her again after this I don't know where she went because I wasn't really focusing on this we tried to
01:31:57 really focusing on this we tried to leave by the staircase I cannot remember who opened the door but someone did know me and I wanted to go down the stairs at that time the staircase was so crowded we decided to stay and wait there was a lot of people coming up the stairs
01:32:09 lot of people coming up the stairs I cannot remember any specific characteristics of these people apart from I remember a man carrying a young child they were panicking and trying to escape
01:32:18 escape there was no unofficial there at that point I could only hear people screaming and panicking that was all I could hear they seemed to be rushing and in a panic I can remember seeing people clearly and I am confident I could not see smoke in
01:32:29 I am confident I could not see smoke in the stairwell at this point now I cannot remember smelling smoke at that point either and then she describes from four paragraphs twenty-seven to paragraph fifty-two moving into flat 193 and and
01:32:47 fifty-two moving into flat 193 and and explains how that came about and what happened within that flat and she says at paragraph 28 when we went into her
01:32:59 at paragraph 28 when we went into her flat the entrance hallway was still clear from smoke there was no change we went into the living room we sealed the door with wet towels we kept the door closed and put the wet towels in the gap I never been into her flat before there
01:33:10 I never been into her flat before there was no smoke in her flat when we went in smoke at that point I think I went into their flat before 1:30 a.m. I've heard Nami's call at a 1:30 and she says we were in our neighbours flat which fits
01:33:21 were in our neighbours flat which fits with my understanding I have a whatsapp message that I remember sending when I was in her flat at 144 a.m. and she exhibits that at ll4 tll 44 sorry ll 4
01:33:33 exhibits that at ll4 tll 44 sorry ll 4 which is at 5:10 I WS 510 and that timed call is all time message is on page 2 of that exhibit and that she says in the
01:33:46 that exhibit and that she says in the message at 144 a.m. I say I'm stuck in a room I mean the lounge in flat 193 and that message is on pages is on page three of that same
01:33:58 on pages is on page three of that same exhibit and then she describes her escape from the flat from essentially from paragraph 42 to 52 and then the
01:34:13 from paragraph 42 to 52 and then the actual escape itself leaving the building from 53 onwards and 53 she says after the to 51 call name you may we were talking about
01:34:25 call name you may we were talking about leaving I never named he telling me she'd walk down the stairs before that if we around we could get down the stairs in three minutes I agreed I could do that
01:34:32 do that we were still not sure in case there was any fire in the stairwell they only got a towel and I got my cardigan wet in the kitchen by this point we could not see anything because the smoke was so thick and we were feeling our way for the
01:34:43 and we were feeling our way for the kitchen tap we ran back to the window to brief some more air at that point I looked left and could see the fire from flat one line to side it was at our level before that I cannot remember a time I clearly looked out of the window
01:34:54 time I clearly looked out of the window and saw the fire coming I was with Naomi when she made the call to 999 at 307 and the time I understood it was to check there was no fire in the stairwell and before running down between 251 and 307
01:35:06 before running down between 251 and 307 I couldn't see anything so I cannot be clear on what the family were doing but they were panicking there was crying praying and screaming there was no fire in flat one what in 193 when we left
01:35:18 in flat one what in 193 when we left Naomi and I were the only ones talking about going no one else could because they were so panicked when we left we couldn't see anything Naomi had lived in the building for six years she knew it very well she led me to the staircase
01:35:29 very well she led me to the staircase and then she describes the experience of actually leaving going from the flat and crossing the stairwell and that 65 describes the descent down the stairs
01:35:41 describes the descent down the stairs she says there the thick smoke the whole way down as well as other things and I have taken this a little bit quickly but it is important mr. chairman to take
01:35:53 it is important mr. chairman to take into account the whole of evidence of course in respect of her stay in flat 193 and what other people were doing at that time and I'm not ready to spit
01:36:06 at that time and I'm not ready to spit read it all out but it is obviously very important evidence mr. chairman if that may be in a convenient moment right well it would be right when these term record
01:36:17 it would be right when these term record gratitude to mr. Chapman and miss now for taking the time and trouble to make those statements and to confirm that that's been the other statement sales found in full as part of the evidence to
01:36:30 found in full as part of the evidence to the inquiry and will be taken into account accordingly yes yes can i just also add in deference to the family who is here today listening to that evidence was i one of the reasons why I haven't
01:36:42 was i one of the reasons why I haven't gone into it in detail before you today is that some of it I need to explore now with with the witness who's coming I think yes very good now is the witness ready right could you ask her to come
01:36:54 ready right could you ask her to come back in please
01:37:14 dr. Lee I'm ready to carry on yes thank you very much that's right Thank you very
01:37:21 very yes mr. dr. Lee thank you for coming coming back to us yeah now before I pick up where we left off can I just ask one or two extra questions going back a little bit first
01:37:34 questions going back a little bit first of all you described for us very helpfully earlier this afternoon hearing the ventilation system noise when you were in your flat if I can ask you to go back please to the plan of your flat
01:37:47 back please to the plan of your flat which is iws good tuple zero five one three at page two can you point out on
01:38:01 three at page two can you point out on this plan where the noise within your flat was coming from you need to stand up so this is a storage like shoe room
01:38:19 up so this is a storage like shoe room so although it is basically from this war here I see okay thank you very much thank you
01:38:36 now when you are in the hall and you saw your neighbor that's just one or two questions about that did you see anybody from flat 193 at that stage not all
01:38:50 from flat 193 at that stage not all that's dude no what about the nanny grandma from 191 did you see her no I didn't see her okay
01:38:59 when you first saw Miriam and her mum as LA yeah going into the stairwell as you
01:39:10 LA yeah going into the stairwell as you described earlier on do you remember where they were going did you know where they were going no I can't see where they whether they go upstairs or downstairs did they say to
01:39:21 upstairs or downstairs did they say to you what they were intending to do know that lady instead you just said they want they no they just said that they're
01:39:33 want they no they just said that they're leaving no one took it all so I presume they're going downstairs because she looks like she wants to get out the building to me okay
01:39:50 and can I just go back to paragraph 35 in your first statement will you talk about the lifts and I'm sorry to jump
01:40:04 about the lifts and I'm sorry to jump back a little bit it's often what happens when we have breaks but if I if I go to paragraph 35 you say the ventilation system being on prompted me to check outside to see if both lifts
01:40:15 to check outside to see if both lifts were working or not do you do you remember whether both lifts were out of
01:40:28 remember whether both lifts were out of service or anyone at lunch point I remember was only one saying all of service
01:40:37 service did it say out of service yes there's a LED running saying auto service right but the other one I can retell I think is from my memory is still running but
01:40:50 is from my memory is still running but don't know if it actually wrong I say that they said okay do you remember was it was it the left left or the right left as you looked at them which is out of service no comment okay
01:41:08 now going to paragraph 43 of your statement on page five you you say I
01:41:23 statement on page five you you say I went indoors this is after meeting your neighbors or almost of your neighbors you say I went indoors and told Lydia that if a neighbor said the fire is in her kitchen I said we have to go the fire is too close to us Marian was our
01:41:35 fire is too close to us Marian was our next-door neighbor but what what made you decide at this point not to follow
01:41:48 you decide at this point not to follow the advice that you'd had from 999 but to leave
01:41:58 I just solve if revising the kitchen that is too close to us and at one point I actually was thinking whether if the
01:42:14 I actually was thinking whether if the man and aiko actually misunderstood my question or like gave me the wrong information that is on the fourth floor
01:42:25 information that is on the fourth floor so it was a stage it was our stage I just don't want to risk it but if he'd sing Marines flat then literature's next
01:42:38 sing Marines flat then literature's next to us and the kitchens next to that just one war between us and I thought nice to risk you we have to leave did did you warn your other neighbors for example no
01:42:52 warn your other neighbors for example no Jamal or tell you dissin or the family 193 or yes I say Myron so it's single kitchen both the the the fire fire
01:43:06 kitchen both the the the fire fire brigade side it's I'm a fourth floor so I wasn't sure and I actually resolve me to call them again
01:43:15 again yeah maybe you see that later but that's the whole reason I tried to call him again saying look what's the situation cuz I got different very different two
01:43:28 cuz I got different very different two situations here I want to know what is the correct one just going back to my question did you warn your neighbors yeah the the foot that was now a fire in
01:43:39 yeah the the foot that was now a fire in a flat on that floor the 22nd floor so I told him my owner said warm them I said I told him Myron told me that when I got
01:43:52 I told him Myron told me that when I got into one minus three that's why I said why didn't I didn't note if I didn't tell Tony I didn't tell Noura at that time because just didn't see them okay
01:44:12 and then you say in your statement in paragraph 44 we've grabbed all of our
01:44:23 paragraph 44 we've grabbed all of our stuff I grab my passport my work bag Lydia
01:44:26 Lydia grabbed her bag with her passport and we left the flat and then you go on to say that in the last sentence the front door closed when we left it closed automatically we did not lock it and it
01:44:38 automatically we did not lock it and it did not lock automatically now this I think is the third time isn't it that you go into the lobby after discovering the fire yes and did you did you see any
01:44:51 the fire yes and did you did you see any of your neighbors in the lobby at that time when you left your flat not when we got not when we got open the door
01:45:04 got not when we got open the door we only saw my neighbors from one night after we tried to open well till we try to go downstairs yes so not a lot point
01:45:16 to go downstairs yes so not a lot point okay not at that point okay I'll come to that in just a moment at that stage you open your front door to leave with Lydia close the front door behind you did you notice if any of the other front doors
01:45:27 notice if any of the other front doors of the flats on your floor were open close did you notice any change in the smoke conditions in the communal Lobby
01:45:42 compared to the first time it was definitely a little bit thicker like you can tell there's smoke a bit thicker
01:45:54 can tell there's smoke a bit thicker compared for the first time yeah compared to the first time for the first time when you open it was so light that you wouldn't you can't read you tell if there's a smoke oh it's just a bit just
01:46:07 there's a smoke oh it's just a bit just from a light for at that point you can tell there's some light smoke in the room enough in the lobby
01:46:18 and compared with the second time which is the time when you saw your neighbors how did it compare with that so a second time is compared to a second time years second times is similar to the first
01:46:31 second times is similar to the first time to me so the third time it's definitely a bit sick thicker now you cross the lobby as you've described in paragraph yeah forty five and you say we
01:46:43 paragraph yeah forty five and you say we open the emergency door do you remember who it was that opened the door was it you or was it Lydia me it was it more difficult to open that door than usual or the same no it's it's quite easy
01:46:57 or the same no it's it's quite easy question for London did you actually get into the stairs no we're opening and standing by it and when you actually try to go down we'll
01:47:10 when you actually try to go down we'll go up we're just standing by a door did you notice what the air conditions were like in the stairs did you get a chance to see so it's more smokey smoke here
01:47:25 to see so it's more smokey smoke here than in the hallway where we were but you still can see you still can see clearly you can you can still see people and see those stairs everything you
01:47:39 and see those stairs everything you still can Cielo and how I know it's difficult to make an estimate how long after your first 999 call which was a 1:21 hours do you think you made that
01:47:53 1:21 hours do you think you made that effort to go into the stairs what sorry what do you repeat yeah so you made your first 999 call at 1:21 yeah how long
01:48:04 first 999 call at 1:21 yeah how long after that call doing your best to estimate now do you think he was that you went into the stairs we'll try to go into the stairs
01:48:13 it's poured ten minutes right when you saw the smoke in the stairs what color
01:48:24 saw the smoke in the stairs what color was it of a smoke yes white like white
01:48:35 yeah quite quite the smoke it was quite a lot of time yes say white smoke yeah did it have a particular smell did
01:48:47 yeah did it have a particular smell did you get a a chance to smell it no a lot pointless smells Oh like just some burning smell but didn't feel difficult
01:49:00 burning smell but didn't feel difficult to breathe at all it was fine so you can't really tell you connery describe those what's the smells like cuz it just smell like smoke
01:49:11 smell like smoke did you do you remember feeling any movement of air in the stairs no now on page five of your statement to
01:49:22 no now on page five of your statement to paragraph 46 you say we saw a lot of people walking up the stairs I said I can't remember how many people were walking up it was a lot enough to mean
01:49:33 walking up it was a lot enough to mean we could not go up downstairs it was people constantly walking up there was hazy smoke in the staircase at that point there look normal walking up stairs not screaming running or anything unusual we didn't talk to anyone now is
01:49:45 unusual we didn't talk to anyone now is a bit stunned at that point people walking up stairs wasn't spec something I expected to see number of questions first of all you described a group do
01:49:57 first of all you described a group do you remember how many roughly you saw
01:50:15 five to ten people did you know any of them no were they wearing night wear or were they dressed for outside no
01:50:28 were they dressed for outside no everyone looks are they just woke up from bed
01:50:39 did anybody tell you or did you hear anybody explain why they were going upstairs
01:50:45 upstairs no did you see where they were heading
01:50:55 no just head upstairs right so know that I can't tell what a head bar I presume to try to get to aloof when you pushed
01:51:07 to try to get to aloof when you pushed open the door and saw people in the stairs did he see some people above you on the stairs going up beyond the 22nd floor
01:51:24 yeah so there were people coming up from downstairs and so people walk upstairs as well now often try to get into our level like
01:51:36 now often try to get into our level like trying to get to our 22nd floor everyone looks like they're going up did you
01:51:48 looks like they're going up did you yourself and Lydia make any attempt to go down no because it basically the lift up the stairwell was so narrow we can't
01:52:01 up the stairwell was so narrow we can't even see any gap we can try to walk them I with you we didn't try if that's the answer we do to try we were basically
01:52:12 answer we do to try we were basically just standing by the door and then just thought oh no as I said I was like something I expected to see right
01:52:23 something I expected to see right is there any reason why you didn't just try to push past them no I did I don't know why I didn't try to do that but I
01:52:34 know why I didn't try to do that but I think because I was a bit that made me hesitate before I should do that make
01:52:46 hesitate before I should do that make sense yes yeah yes I see
01:52:53 you you say in paragraph 48 the bottom of the page page 5 I closed the emergency door quickly turn round to say
01:53:04 emergency door quickly turn round to say to Lydia
01:53:05 to Lydia I think the door is locked upstairs we can't go upstairs I assumed they were trying to get onto the roof and meant that the door to the roof was locked and dr. Leigh how did you know that the door
01:53:17 dr. Leigh how did you know that the door to the roof was locked because my brother who used to live with me we he tried to get upstairs once when we first moved in and he told me he can't get out
01:53:31 moved in and he told me he can't get out oh because there's a door with a lock right I didn't I didn't try to do that myself but it was based on what he told me right and I was back to 2011 when we
01:53:46 me right and I was back to 2011 when we honey 12 when we first moved to so that's how that's what I had in mind that I pushed him even after a renovation they would still keep that
01:53:58 renovation they would still keep that door closed okay now you then say at the top of page 6 paragraph 49 at that point
01:54:11 top of page 6 paragraph 49 at that point the mum from flat 193 opened her door and asked what happened I said there is a fire 999 says it's on the fourth floor but our neighbor says is in her kitchen so we are not sure she told us to come
01:54:24 so we are not sure she told us to come in she explained they still have fresh air in her flat and there was no smoke in her flat at all
01:54:38 given that you were telling them that though fire was in the kitchen on that floor do you know or rather what was
01:54:49 floor do you know or rather what was your understanding at the time about why they weren't trying to leave
01:55:04 other things it was based on that first of all in a flat you can't see anything
01:55:16 of all in a flat you can't see anything it's not like you can't even see any reflection or name any anything from a windows and the second other thing because you can't smell anything at all
01:55:30 because you can't smell anything at all it's not like in a flat you can smell something so that made us feel it's probably okay just staying there flat
01:55:42 probably okay just staying there flat and also it's like the it's like the corner up see 2 2 1 I 196 so maybe you
01:55:56 corner up see 2 2 1 I 196 so maybe you feel like this my still have time even if it's singly of that but I can't explain what I like you know yeah I mean it was that was what you've just said
01:56:07 it was that was what you've just said something that you discussed with the the the family in one in flat 193 or something that you just assumed something I'll just assume okay now you
01:56:18 something I'll just assume okay now you say you were invited in by the month we believe that's Nadia to care yep do you know why at that moment you decided to
01:56:29 know why at that moment you decided to go into her flat and not go downstairs as you were planning to do I can't tell you why I just at that time I felt I was
01:56:40 you why I just at that time I felt I was the right thing to do how soon after your first call your first 999 call at 121 do you think he went into her flat
01:56:57 less than 15 minutes 10 between 10 to 13 minutes also pop misurkin well that time let's see if we can let's see if we can
01:57:09 let's see if we can let's see if we can do this by reference to your line messages that you were having with Lee at the time yeah which start on where start on the page two five one four
01:57:20 start on the page two five one four picking it up I think at page four of that exhibit it starts at the top and
01:57:33 that exhibit it starts at the top and this is message from lane Amy are you okay and their boat at 125 well at 127 it looks as if your phone rings and it
01:57:44 it looks as if your phone rings and it says canceled yeah what does that indicate does that mean he ran off mmm no basically means I didn't ideal pick up okay and then at
01:57:55 didn't ideal pick up okay and then at 129 is a caller which looks like is this right it lasts it comes from Lee that lasts 12 seconds yeah what comes from somebody that lasts 12 seconds only from Lee yeah these only are they yeah it has
01:58:08 Lee yeah these only are they yeah it has to it will it basically this is a conversation with him and then at 1:30 it says please tell me
01:58:21 and then at 1:30 it says please tell me when you're out safely that do you where were you do you think when you got Lee's message first of all at 1:25 are you okay oh I was probably talking to
01:58:37 you okay oh I was probably talking to neighbor a lot in the hallway okay Oh grabbing my stuff I know where do you think you were when you read them it when you went received the message
01:58:49 when you went received the message please tell me when you're out safely I was probably still in the hallway right then if we turn to
01:59:02 right then if we turn to we'll turn down the page to the next our item there's something at 135 so it's my fault forget back a page 135 is a call
01:59:13 fault forget back a page 135 is a call from you lasting 2 minutes and 59 seconds is that you calling Lee yes do you remember where you were I was he made that quite I was in one nice three
01:59:25 made that quite I was in one nice three all that time you were in 193 yes do you remember how long you've been in 193 for when you called it 135 listen look less
01:59:40 when you called it 135 listen look less than 5 minutes basically because I wanted to tell him okay I mean 103 and there's no smoke yes see and I think that's that is what you said to him yeah
01:59:59 when you went into flat 193 you said there was no smoke we were the conditions in flat one nine three different in any way from the conditions the air conditions in your
02:00:11 conditions the air conditions in your flat flat one nine five when you left it no you know we'll actually assume both clear of smoke yes now at page six of
02:00:25 clear of smoke yes now at page six of your statement you say at paragraph 56 well let me just take 54 first of all paragraph 54 there's a question I think
02:00:37 paragraph 54 there's a question I think that arises there you say we could see a helicopter there directly outside the flat we open the window fully trying to get their attention do you remember who opened the window fully to get the
02:00:50 opened the window fully to get the attention of the helicopters
02:00:57 so all the windows were locked with with a key so if you asked who opened it
02:01:09 a key so if you asked who opened it that would be that damn one nice we opened because he used he has to had to use the key to open all the windows okay
02:01:22 use the key to open all the windows okay see so you think it was the dad yes a bass MGK yeah okay and you say trying to get their attention what what did Pete but what did well first of all did did
02:01:36 but what did well first of all did did he
02:01:37 he the dad try to get the attention of the helicopters
02:01:47 I can't remember if he did it but I did it what did you what'd he do so I was trying to find things like a towel or we
02:02:00 trying to find things like a towel or we were trying to find like a tablecloth or something and then wave it from wave it just just get out just by a window so
02:02:11 just just get out just by a window so I'm trying to wave it you say in your statement to paragraph 54 at the time I thought they were monitoring the situation does that mean that you didn't
02:02:23 situation does that mean that you didn't think they were there to rescue you yeah they didn't look like they will lay out to rescue us did you have a discussion with the family in 193 any
02:02:35 discussion with the family in 193 any member of the family in 193 about what the helicopters were there for no no did
02:02:48 the helicopters were there for no no did okay
02:02:49 okay did you share your view that they were only there to monitor and not to rescue with anybody in flat 193
02:03:06 not read No okay now paragraph 56 of the statement you you explained that you you're in flat line line three and you
02:03:18 you're in flat line line three and you explain the doors and in the second sentence you say we closed the gaps with wet towels at the bottom of there was still a long gap all the way down the middle of the doorway but she couldn't close with wet towels now that data
02:03:32 close with wet towels now that data wasn't sneaking the flat so it didn't really matter it was like that for at least an hour first of all why did you block the doors with wet towels at that
02:03:43 block the doors with wet towels at that point because we don't know if smoke or calming had anybody advised you or anybody else in flat 193 so far as you know to block the doors with wet towels
02:03:58 [Music]
02:04:03 no it's just we had with basic so we try to stop this more coming so then yes oh
02:04:19 to stop this more coming so then yes oh everyone was basically trying to find towels and to seal that door do you remember did you yourself wet towels did
02:04:33 remember did you yourself wet towels did you go you do help wet the towels no it was it was it was done by by by the family not us okay do you remember
02:04:47 family not us okay do you remember whether there was any difficulty in getting water out of the taps and it kind of water pressure problem at any stage no the water pressure was fine
02:05:04 and I think then you made a second call at 1:30 38 and that's inq for 72 and I
02:05:20 at 1:30 38 and that's inq for 72 and I say and then because we may have jumped forward a little bit in time do you remember where you were when you made that second call I was in 103 you were in 193 yes and you can see halfway down
02:05:40 in 193 yes and you can see halfway down this call which lasts for one minute and 22 seconds the control room operator says it's a block of flat on the fourth
02:05:51 says it's a block of flat on the fourth floor alight and you say yeah well our neighbor Tom's is actually from their kitchen and you then go on to say two
02:06:06 kitchen and you then go on to say two lines three three lines down from that yeah we are still we are in the neighbor's house now and then the operator repeats the assurance a ok all right well it's on the 20th you're on
02:06:18 right well it's on the 20th you're on the 20th it's on the 4th and you say 22nd floor CRO 22nd question 22nd floor yes all right okay we're there all right I'll let them know thank you
02:06:29 I'll let them know thank you and then you goes you say so and then the controller operators as I go by and the country female caller says keeping the flat sorry do we stay in the flat as
02:06:40 the flat sorry do we stay in the flat as your question and then the controller operator says well I obviously really can't really advise you but I'll let the farmer know you're there okay and then you say all farewells and the call ends
02:06:53 you say all farewells and the call ends do you number of questions about that first of all do you recall your reaction to the control room operator assuring you that the fire was on the fourth
02:07:05 you that the fire was on the fourth floor when you were telling her that it has spread to your neighbor's flat on the 22nd floor
02:07:12 do you remember your reaction to her telling you that it was on the fourth
02:07:23 give me after the phone call on when those aren't for Jim both during and after what were your thoughts so I'm a phone call my sauce oh so it is the
02:07:37 phone call my sauce oh so it is the second time they told me it's on the fourth floor so it's probably on the fourth floor and
02:07:48 after phone call are basically thing okay this is if it's on fourth floor we better we staying a flat and we actually
02:08:02 better we staying a flat and we actually never in a million you never saw actually you spray to a twenty second floor so in my mind a lot of time I was
02:08:13 floor so in my mind a lot of time I was thinking the fire if we when she says young in her kitchen I saw Lee trees the fire in her kitchen not outside her
02:08:26 fire in her kitchen not outside her kitchen if that make sense I thought is something happening there in her kitchen so when operator
02:08:37 so when operator reassure that know it sounds forceful and I said I was thinking okay so that probably is right it's probably in our forceful and based on minority or for
02:08:49 forceful and based on minority or for fire if his false for the file should only be a wrongful floor who never come up to 22nd floor so my my feeling told I
02:09:02 up to 22nd floor so my my feeling told I was that all right we just stay there because it's probably safer did you think that the control room operator had really understood that the fire wasn't
02:09:13 really understood that the fire wasn't actually contained on the fourth floor but was on the 22nd floor as you were telling her no I don't think she will be honest died I don't think she was
02:09:25 honest died I don't think she was listening to me
02:09:30 at the end of the call we've seen you ask the question do we okay bye do we keep in the keeping the flat sorry
02:09:41 do we keep in the keeping the flat sorry do we stay in the flat what had prompted you to ask that question because I want to make sure that is the right thing to
02:09:54 to make sure that is the right thing to do now based on my knowledge you we should stay in a flat but I want to know from professionals like that is what you
02:10:05 from professionals like that is what you should do so I ask again now we can see the advice you get which is well obviously I'm sorry I'll put the question again you can see the answer
02:10:16 question again you can see the answer that you get well I obviously can't really advise you but I'll let the farmer know you're there okay at the time did you think you had got an answer
02:10:28 time did you think you had got an answer to your question you could you were happy with or not no I remember I had not reformed in the desert if you don't know what to do what do I know how
02:10:39 know what to do what do I know how possible do I know what I should do but because our lap time was all clear in the flat so I thought all right we just stay and then try to see what to do is
02:10:52 stay and then try to see what to do is the best
02:10:58 yeah from the transcripts got it and done I think inaudibly but can I just repeat the question at the time did you think you got an answer from the control
02:11:10 think you got an answer from the control room operator that you were happy with no not really what were you unhappy about I was
02:11:21 what were you unhappy about I was expecting a more direct answer like yes or no you should leave did the answer that you got from the
02:11:34 did the answer that you got from the control room operator have any influence on what you did next
02:11:53 I think I'll lose stage
02:12:01 yes because we choose to stay based on our judgment not from her if that makes
02:12:15 our judgment not from her if that makes sense
02:12:17 now at this stage 1:30 yeah you're in the flat one line three as you said and we know by 135 you speak to Lee and you
02:12:29 we know by 135 you speak to Lee and you are in the flat at that stage as well do you remember whether the family in the flat were making calls to naina
02:12:43 the flat were making calls to naina night or just making four coats in general well first of all any any calls did you did you see or hear than making calls at least a stage yes at this early stage yes I think so
02:13:00 stage yes I think so the mom
02:13:05 awful family was making phone call did you know who she was speaking to no I didn't pay attention to her what what about the dad that's then you know what
02:13:16 about the dad that's then you know what he was who he was talking to I don't have a memory that he was on the phone
02:13:27 have a memory that he was on the phone do you remember Nadia the mum yeah ever telling you what she had been told by 999 at this stage well any stage after
02:13:40 999 at this stage well any stage after this point
02:13:53 Oh
02:13:56 I don't remember she told me she'd call no no no very well now to attend I'm sorry paragraph 65 of your statement you
02:14:17 you say at around 240 so we've jumped forward an hour now around ten minutes before I made my third call to 999 at 2:50 the mum had a phone call and after
02:14:30 2:50 the mum had a phone call and after said we need to leave the building I don't know who she'd spoken to but she was panicking and demanding say we need to go and you need to go to we were saying nine nine nine told us to stay she was really demanding did she the mum
02:14:47 she was really demanding did she the mum Nadia tell you why you needed to go she was on a phone call with her friend or a
02:15:00 was on a phone call with her friend or a relative and I think they were
02:15:13 in the they were outside the building so she was on phone call with someone basically outside building and saying I
02:15:28 basically outside building and saying I don't know the full conversation but based on my understanding it's from the words I can hear is saying it's very bad you have to get out and she immediately
02:15:46 you have to get out and she immediately put down the phone and so we have to go
02:15:52 do you remember whether Bassam the dad
02:15:58 called 999 or had advice from 999 no I don't remember we have a transcript of his call at 243 and just for the record
02:16:10 his call at 243 and just for the record mr. chairman it's lfp 376 in which he was advised to leave my question to you dr. Lee is do you remember Bassam saying 999 advise us we must
02:16:22 Bassam saying 999 advise us we must leave no you don't you go back to your statement you say in the next paragraph at 66 what your reaction to this was and
02:16:36 at 66 what your reaction to this was and you said at the end there we decided we would call 999 again they accepted that as our choice and they left now
02:16:49 as our choice and they left now you then go on to say in 67 when they tried to leave the flat they open the front door and a lot of smoke came in and you explain that and they go out and
02:17:02 and you explain that and they go out and then it's 71 paragraph 71 you say I called 999 after Lydia and I had sealed the door
02:17:13 Lydia and I had sealed the door so is it this what happened they left the flat the whole family left the flat and then you sealed the door you staying behind to make your call yeah okay now we've got that third call is what
02:17:36 we've got that third call is what happened that they returned to the flat during that third call to 999 yes right now at 67 just going back to it now
02:17:48 now at 67 just going back to it now we've got the order you say when they tried to leave the flat they opened the door the front door and a lot of smoke came in at that time before they opened up the door it was still clear air in the flat you didn't feel much about the
02:18:00 the flat you didn't feel much about the smoke at all you didn't need towels or anything you could not tell there was a fire when insightful at 1 9 3 at that point did that affect your decision the
02:18:14 point did that affect your decision the fact that it was clear air in the flat not to go with the family but to stay in that flat yeah
02:18:29 now I just want to show you a transcript of a call Nadia Chu care made to 999 at 148 so this is quite quite a bit earlier
02:18:44 148 so this is quite quite a bit earlier and this is at lfb 3 to 5
02:19:00 LF B 3 to 5
02:19:07 and it comes through the Essex Fire and Rescue Services control room and I just wanted to show you two or three pages of it a page - she says the smoke there's
02:19:19 it a page - she says the smoke there's smoke coming in a lot you can just go to page two
02:19:30 but halfway down the page she says it's getting very smoky inside the house you see that and it's getting very smoky
02:19:45 see that and it's getting very smoky inside the house my question is do you remember Nadia calling 999 and reporting
02:19:57 remember Nadia calling 999 and reporting smoke inside the flat no okay then there's another call to take that one off and go to lfb three six six
02:20:15 this call is Nadia choucas second 999 call made some time later to 237 and if you can go to page 2 we take you to page
02:20:27 you can go to page 2 we take you to page 2 she says and you can see it's 193 22nd floor and she says just but just above
02:20:40 floor and she says just but just above the bottom of the page the operator says okay and what's happening now is there smoke coming in or a fire there's smoke coming in a lot my question is do you
02:20:54 coming in a lot my question is do you remember Nadia making a call at around that time to 90999 and saying there was smoke coming in a lot no do you remember
02:21:06 smoke coming in a lot no do you remember there being smoke in the flat as Nadler is describing it at about that time it's just before you before your third 999 call
02:21:20 there was certainly smoke from the window side but because we try to close them so I'm not sure whether she means
02:21:35 them so I'm not sure whether she means lots more coming in like in the kitchen the entire flat or in the living room because to me at lap time the living
02:21:47 because to me at lap time the living room still you still can breathe and if there's any smoke it was very very light though you can't really tell at that
02:22:00 though you can't really tell at that point I mean before they try to get out of the flat yeah so but if you see like
02:22:12 of the flat yeah so but if you see like the because I didn't go to a kitchen or the corridor so I don't really know if at that time it was smoky already a lot in outside the living room you were in
02:22:26 in outside the living room you were in the living room walls yeah so I was in the living room so that I can only tell the living room was still okay at that point I see where was where was Nadia where was the mom at that time solo they
02:22:37 where was the mom at that time solo they were we were all in the living room but they they went they they were now to get wet towel - when - at all to go to a
02:22:50 wet towel - when - at all to go to a toilet so that I don't but obviously I didn't go to get the wait house and and tour so I didn't really know how bad
02:23:03 tour so I didn't really know how bad outside of leave a room can I ask you to be shown page six of this same transcript and this is Nadia of the same call yep just to remind you that the
02:23:15 call yep just to remind you that the time is 237 am yeah she says towards the bottom mother actually starts at the top of the page
02:23:26 actually starts at the top of the page the snake is getting worse in the room and then she asks the question should we leave the windows open or should we close them oh my god and it goes on and then at the bottom of the page and
02:23:38 then at the bottom of the page and anywhere the smokes coming in is there a room that where the smoke is leased and she says at the bottom this is Nadia caller one no it's too much smoke in this room and then over the page okay
02:23:56 this room and then over the page okay it's too much smoke in this room and then she's told okay I'll tell them where they are do you remember does this trigger a recollection of you hearing her speaking
02:24:12 recollection of you hearing her speaking to 999 and telling her that there was too much smoke in the room at the time I
02:24:19 can't remember okay
02:24:24 I mean she's it's clear that her
02:24:29 perception is that there is a lot of smoke in the flat we've seen what she said to the control room operator I'm just trying to see whether that is consistent with your recollection of the smoke conditions in the flat at that
02:24:41 smoke conditions in the flat at that time so to 240 or so
02:24:57 because to be honest with you a lot when we were in the living room a lot of time I was checking online to see what we should do when there's a fire in the
02:25:08 should do when there's a fire in the block right and I was constantly talking to my husband so even though the living
02:25:19 to my husband so even though the living room was not huge but because you've quite focus on doing things of us why actually can't really tell if she's calling someone or we're calling nine
02:25:32 calling someone or we're calling nine and nine or having the conversation with anyone else right now you you you
02:25:44 anyone else right now you you you mention a call with your husband if I can just just chase this up a little yeah of course yeah take time up on it but you just want to get your recollection if you go please to page
02:25:56 recollection if you go please to page five exhibit iws Quint equals zero five one for page eight this is your communication with Li yep five one for
02:26:11 communication with Li yep five one for page eight and you can see because this spans the time of the line of this nine nine nine call that an earlier make so we can see here at 2:32 you get a
02:26:23 we can see here at 2:32 you get a message from Li can you still breathe fresh air and then just below that there's a bubble of a telephone in it at 250 which is which looks like it lasts
02:26:36 250 which is which looks like it lasts for 14 minutes and 55 seconds what does that what does that signify bombings we
02:26:47 that what does that signify bombings we were on the phone right so he rang you yes and he had a 15 minute conversation did that think that that conversation start at 2:50 or end at 2:50 are doing
02:26:58 start at 2:50 or end at 2:50 are doing it means ends are 250 pens at 250 yeah okay right
02:27:04 so it would have started sometime after 232 and ended at 250 which would explain why there's a call going out from you at 250 immediately after it yeah which lasts one second yeah I see okay see
02:27:18 lasts one second yeah I see okay see then they explained I may provide the answer to my next question but I'll ask it I'll ask it anyway we have a call made by bass and shoe care two nine nine nine at 2:43 which looks as if it's in
02:27:30 nine at 2:43 which looks as if it's in the middle of your call to lay and that's lfb three seven six three seven six if I can just ask you to look at that transcript we know that it's a 243
02:27:45 that transcript we know that it's a 243 55 seconds and at page 3 I just want to show you one thing in it page 3 Bassem says
02:28:05 three quarters of the way downs best place to start okay can you get out at all if you go out on to your landing is it full of smoke it's full of smoke far from the other side is over our building and then but
02:28:19 side is over our building and then but is it in is the fire in the corridor the fire I don't know something smoking I think I might know the answer to this but I'd ask it anywhere do you recall
02:28:30 but I'd ask it anywhere do you recall here hearing bassam's you can make that call no okay now
02:28:47 when they left if you go to paragraph 69 of your statement you say at the top of the page page 8 you say after they left they've taken all the wet towels and unsealed the living room door Lydia and
02:28:59 unsealed the living room door Lydia and I tried to reseal the living room door but we could not do it we even tried to seal the gap down in the middle with tape by keeping my bag to put on my feet if my shoes rub my feet why did you try to reseal the door well
02:29:13 why did you try to reseal the door well that door because I'll at point there were lost
02:29:22 were lost there was a lot smoke coming into the flat into a flood and it was very smoky a corridor already because the corridor inside of that right so all the smoke
02:29:36 inside of that right so all the smoke basically because because they open the front door they got six people trying to
02:29:48 front door they got six people trying to leave so that was quite a long time for adults would be opened and so all the smoke just coming owing once and we and
02:30:02 smoke just coming owing once and we and we tried to close a door birth because the gap like all smokes can still leak into the living room was the smoke
02:30:13 into the living room was the smoke coming into the flat at that point from anywhere else apart from through the front door when the two cows opened it to leave yes
02:30:24 when the two cows opened it to leave yes my impression on that time was always small basically coming from the hallway the community area when they open the door right now you then make three 999
02:30:35 door right now you then make three 999 calls in quick succession at the first one is at o2 51 and I think during the middle of that call was this right the
02:30:46 middle of that call was this right the chook a family returned in two flat 193 yeah now that is the transcript for that is LFP 386
02:31:00 if we can just look at that that's Oh two fifty-one and nine seconds and you ask the operator if you go to page two
02:31:12 ask the operator if you go to page two of that transcript halfway down the page and they want to know if we need to if we need to run downstairs or where to go and my first question is what prompted
02:31:26 and my first question is what prompted you to ask that question because I don't feel safe to stay anymore right why
02:31:37 feel safe to stay anymore right why didn't you why didn't you go out with the two cares I didn't feel we were prepared to wrong downstairs at last
02:31:49 prepared to wrong downstairs at last stitch no we didn't have any towels or anything covers and I still had the
02:32:00 anything covers and I still had the stay-put policy in mind saying he's still safer to stay in the flat now if
02:32:11 still safer to stay in the flat now if you look on to page three of the transcript you say to her at the very
02:32:23 transcript you say to her at the very top of that page it's very smoky outside it's very smoky outside and she says is there any flames everywhere is smoke okay listen she says you can do one of two things you can either make it your way to go
02:32:34 you can either make it your way to go into a room and shut the door keep the smoke out and stay low or you can try and make your way out of the building you have to do you have to decide what your safer okay if you're going to make your way out of the building and then you say we can't go
02:32:46 building and then you say we can't go downstairs now my question there is were you able to decide for yourself at that point what the safer of these two
02:32:57 point what the safer of these two options was No
02:33:02 now looking on in the transcript to page 8 you see that the operator says 1/3 of
02:33:26 8 you see that the operator says 1/3 of the way down okay and then when when you've done that which is towels get everyone one per person wrap them cover themselves up make sure their heads they cover themselves here and try and leave the building okay there's a lot of people inside and the firefighters are
02:33:38 people inside and the firefighters are struggling to get to everyone okay so your best bet is to try to make your way out the building and you say but we're on the 22nd floor something downstairs 22nd floor I know I know but your best
02:33:50 22nd floor I know I know but your best bet is to try and get out there's a lot of smoke coming in and this make is very dangerous okay and then you say so what do you want well you want us you want us to go query okay your your best bet is
02:34:01 to go query okay your your best bet is to try and leave get outside okay now I've showed you quite a lot of that did you register do you understand what
02:34:12 you register do you understand what advice she was actually giving you know when she said your best bet I do not understand it that was my question you didn't understand it I mean I didn't
02:34:23 didn't understand it I mean I didn't understand what what what she was saying it wasn't clear to me what was what was what was it about the advice that wasn't
02:34:34 what was it about the advice that wasn't clear to you when she say your best bet is to try and leave
02:34:42 toriana so I was
02:34:47 I was in I was quite panicking so when I asked so what do you want do you want us to go I I expected to have the answer to
02:35:05 to go I I expected to have the answer to me is yes you have to go oh no you should stay did you understand that this was now a life-or-death decision no I didn't I
02:35:20 life-or-death decision no I didn't I didn't know you it would be it would be this bad I do so not to rush you but
02:35:34 this bad I do so not to rush you but she's been giving evidence for another odd yes yes I appreciate that mr. Chen I was kind of raised this with you know I've gone run slower than I thought I
02:35:46 I've gone run slower than I thought I was going to this afternoon with I went I went I think be able to finish her this evening looking at my name was yes probably another 30 to 40 minutes which
02:35:59 probably another 30 to 40 minutes which is rather long and I'm conscious we've been game for now at least well to some extent I think we're in your hands mr. millet thinks he would need to ask you a question to another 30
02:36:12 need to ask you a question to another 30 or 40 minutes I think you should have a break anyway which means that if you were to continue this evening we'd go on until quarter past how fast five now you
02:36:25 until quarter past how fast five now you may say that's too long but how difficult is it for you to come back tomorrow you understand why I'm asking you yeah the choices I think are that we
02:36:39 you yeah the choices I think are that we press on longer this afternoon would you come back tomorrow but you've been giving evidence for quite a long time already you may be quite tired and you
02:36:51 already you may be quite tired and you may prefer not to carry on this afternoon but I didn't watch our commitments are tomorrow's can you help me I will prefer
02:37:02 tomorrow's can you help me I will prefer to finish today that doesn't surprise me okay dude are you happy in your own mind that you can you can give your best
02:37:15 that you can you can give your best evidence if we go on even though we've been going a long time yes yes mr. Chan I will try and trim my cloth well I
02:37:26 I will try and trim my cloth well I wasn't trying to shorten here because these are important matters and there are lot of people here they want to hear what the witness has to say but I can quite see from her point of view she might prefer to finish this after
02:37:38 she might prefer to finish this after Newton provided she's not too tired to do herself justice since the chairman that considering I'm going to say that in any event we'll have a 10-minute break no slightly longer let's say
02:37:52 break no slightly longer let's say quarter to five
02:37:55 I think if possible we ought to do everything we can to finish the witness by half-past five which is not an invitation to go on until half less right
02:38:04 right no it's not they and not not interpreted as such no does that sound all right to you dr. Lee yes that's four okay thank you very much well that's her break not
02:38:15 you very much well that's her break not talk to anyone and we'll start to get it post to find
02:38:34 can I just say for everyone's benefit I'm sorry that this afternoon is now going to go on longer than any of you thought it would I shan't take any offence if people
02:38:45 I shan't take any offence if people think they have other things to do that are more important if you don't want to stay and I do think it's important that we give the witness the opportunity to finish her evidence this evening with with sufficient time for break nerves
02:38:57 with sufficient time for break nerves and that's what I've done and if you feel that you don't want to stay as late as I've indicated well then you're free to go
02:39:04 to go well mr. chairman thank you now I'm grateful to to you and to the witness these are important matters to come up so of course the fire please
02:47:28 you
02:51:19 and he coming yes
02:51:34 don't leave your happy to continue yes it is getting late if you feel at any point you're really too tired to do yourself justice would you just say sit
02:51:45 yourself justice would you just say sit yep okay thank you yes Thomson Lee thank you for coming back to us yeah just a couple of general questions before the shoe care family left the flat do you remember having any conversation
02:51:56 remember having any conversation yourself with Nadia the mom or Bassem the dad about anything before they tried to leave hear that yes she's so true so
02:52:09 to leave hear that yes she's so true so talk like we are we have to go we have to leave her building and you have to go and we were saying but I told us to stay
02:52:28 she was really firm not we have to go very pink since we need to leave and we had the beat I didn't know he was called
02:52:42 had the beat I didn't know he was called she tried to grab us poor us with her so that was the conversation we had but we decided no no we can't do it and then
02:52:54 decided no no we can't do it and then they just
02:52:56 they just that's your chosen basic he just left did okay
02:53:03 did okay and during the 999 call we've just seen I think the chickens then come back into the flat I just want to see if I can get a thick a fix on what point they
02:53:14 a thick a fix on what point they actually return if you go to the transcript which is lfb 386 this is your third line 9 9 core which starts at 250 109 and if you turn to page for a third
02:53:29 109 and if you turn to page for a third of the way down the page 386 page four
02:53:35 well I probably better to start a little earlier caller over speaking stay in here please please who's that who's that in there with you hello says the operator and you say can you come in
02:53:46 operator and you say can you come in please come in come in come in come in come in come on come in close the door please quit yeah close the door close the door did you close that door is that when they come in yeah and who comes in at that point everyone everyone in the
02:54:01 at that point everyone everyone in the one nice ooh family does that include neuro Jamal no no not one neuron no no not that point okay can I ask you them
02:54:14 not that point okay can I ask you them to go to paragraph 75 of your statement yeah your first statement you you say
02:54:30 yeah your first statement you you say they're the family from flat 192 came in after the family from 193 then you say this was definitely after I finished this nine nine nine call I heard knocking at the front door and thought
02:54:42 knocking at the front door and thought it was the fire brigade ii was nura and her family i could only see know her and her daughter so that's what you say in your statement and just going back to page four of transcript l FB 386 you say
02:54:58 page four of transcript l FB 386 you say you can see you say as we've seen it come in come in a third of the way down the page and then you say three lines up from the bottom of the same page someone's knocking on the door sorry
02:55:11 someone's knocking on the door sorry someone's knocking on the door did you say someone's knocking at the door or it's hot hello that's over the page
02:55:21 to go to the page at 5 inaudible hello close the door quick hello close the door hello hello my question is are you she who was knocking
02:55:34 question is are you she who was knocking at the door do you remember was it was it knocking by niraj Amala her family at that point or was that still the two cares coming in
02:56:09 I'm not sure about okay now getting back to paragraph 75 of your statement you
02:56:21 to paragraph 75 of your statement you say that the call finished and then Nora and her daughter came in at the end of that sentence you say the smoke was so
02:56:32 that sentence you say the smoke was so thick it was difficult to see at that stage at that point once Nora Jamal and her daughter had come in where do you
02:56:43 her daughter had come in where do you think the smoke was did you think the smoke was coming from a front door from the front door yes
02:56:55 now just skipping forward in your statement to page 11 paragraph 105 I just want to get up just a little bit more detail on the smoke you say para
02:57:06 more detail on the smoke you say para 105 from the moment the family tried to leave flat 193 the smoke felt toxic of spiky as if there was a lot of stuff going into your nose and a lot of spikes in your nose trying to poke you but I
02:57:18 in your nose trying to poke you but I couldn't smell anything cause you can't breathe properly was that the first time that's the time when the two cares try
02:57:30 that's the time when the two cares try to leave 193 was that the first time that you noticed the smoke having a physical effect on you in the way you described yes was this do you remember whether the smoke kind of physical effect on anybody else in the in the flat or those were
02:57:45 else in the in the flat or those were leaving the flat well
02:57:51 I would say yes because everyone's trying to get to the window side when they came back in and yeah we're looking about it and also lay a lot point almost
02:58:04 about it and also lay a lot point almost everyone had towel a wet towel towel in front of the face sort of nose and mouth right and so not from discussion but you
02:58:19 right and so not from discussion but you can tell it's definitely physically affecting everyone
02:58:29 and then you have another call Liat 259 which is after the nine little third 999 call yeah and that I think we get that from page five one four page nine if you
02:58:47 from page five one four page nine if you just have that up there just got a small question about that mm-hmm it's it's five one four page nine we can
02:58:58 it's it's five one four page nine we can see at the top of the this page a call coming in from Lee lastly two minutes of 52 seconds and the time mark next to it is 259 is that again like the earlier
02:59:11 is 259 is that again like the earlier calls is that the endpoint of the call or the start of the call and pause the endpoint yes so would it would have started at two fifty six or seven okay
02:59:28 started at two fifty six or seven okay so that would be pretty well immediately after your nine nine nine third nine nine nine yeah right and then you have we have a fourth call from you at I
02:59:41 we have a fourth call from you at I think at 255 59 which is lfb three eight nine
02:59:47 nine if we can just look at that
02:59:58 and there it is - 52 55 59 now if it that time mark is right under time mark in your in your line messages is right
03:00:10 in your in your line messages is right it looks like this calls was also made before you spoke to Lee because if your calls to Lee started at 257 yeah this is a 255 it looks as if this was a teammate
03:00:25 a 255 it looks as if this was a teammate to two two nine nine nine miles but before calling Lee yeah I don't want to is that is that is that right is that how you remember it
03:00:41 [Music]
03:00:45 it's the fifth there is is there fish third it's cold right there isn't come to that
03:00:51 to that that was a 307 yeah okay yeah so
03:01:03 [Music] yeah okay
03:01:07 yeah okay okay the reason I'm asking you dr. Lee is because in your statement you say you have the third call which we've seen and then you spects you say speak to Lee at 2:59 and in fact the cause if it starts
03:01:18 2:59 and in fact the cause if it starts at 10:57 yeah is preceded I think by this call at 3 8 @ l FP 3 8 9 at 255 so looking at that call you say if you go
03:01:32 looking at that call you say if you go to page 3 of that call
03:01:46 you say a third of the way down the page yes yes we have it we all have it that's towels cloths we all have it but now the fire is just next to us the fire is the fire is just next to us the room next to
03:01:58 fire is just next to us the room next to us right are you on the stairwell my question is with which room is the fire
03:02:10 question is with which room is the fire in that you're describing there
03:02:18 so the fire the fire a lot time respecting I was standing by the window and we can see the fire coming from one
03:02:33 and we can see the fire coming from one night to that direction and he looks like I don't know if I'll get into a room but it looks like it's just coming to us from the war if that makes them
03:02:48 to us from the war if that makes them across the exterior of the building yeah because there's a the fire basically just coming to our direction and following the war so that's why I say
03:03:00 following the war so that's why I say the rooms next to us and there's a fire coming so you're that decision yes it's a is from one night to that's direction turning on in the transcript you say on
03:03:13 turning on in the transcript you say on page four
03:03:24 it is said the operator says it's a very bad fire okay your only chance of surviving that fires to get to the stairwell okay you need to put wet cloths around your face and get to the
03:03:36 cloths around your face and get to the stairwell
03:03:36 stairwell okay okay okay bye do that now well the
03:03:49 okay okay okay bye do that now well the first question I should ask you is I've just had a note which you'd suggested that this isn't actually your call well let me just let me just see if I can
03:04:02 let me just let me just see if I can pursue this without offstage prompts first of all and this will take a little longer than I was anticipating but literally by dr. Lee bear with me we
03:04:13 literally by dr. Lee bear with me we start with the course which starts at 255 59 and perhaps this may help you with your recollection if you go to page
03:04:24 with your recollection if you go to page two a third of the way down the caller says it's on fire screaming and then call it to 22nd floor please can you
03:04:36 call it to 22nd floor please can you send inaudible helicopter inaudible helicopter to 22nd floor inaudible the light is on the light our light is on please send it because the fire is everywhere are you either of those
03:04:48 everywhere are you either of those callers caller or caller - do you remember
03:05:08 No do you remember asking for a helicopter to be sent no okay so they're
03:05:20 helicopter to be sent no okay so they're going then on to the next page page three I think you might be sorry I think
03:05:35 three I think you might be sorry I think it might be from the mom and dad right okay from One Nights three okay let me ask you this way do you remember speaking to any control room operator
03:05:47 speaking to any control room operator who was a man no right in which case I will leave that transcript
03:06:04 there's a call and you refer to it as a fifth call but I think if there's a force it's actually a fourth quarter and now establishing that at 3:07 13 and
03:06:15 now establishing that at 3:07 13 and that's lfp four zero four
03:06:29 and it's time to oh three oh seven thirteen and if you go to page two just make absolutely sure as you you can see
03:06:43 make absolutely sure as you you can see the first few exchanges in the in the call twenty second floor operator okay you still in your flat yes we've got ten eleven twelve people actually okay in
03:06:55 eleven twelve people actually okay in the smoke and there's a smoke getting worse in your flat does it does this trigger a recollection yeah okay then if you go to page two or stay on page two
03:07:06 you go to page two or stay on page two you say we're still in the flat why have you not left the flat at that point
03:07:18 because I wasn't sure if it's safe to walk downstairs right had you heard in those few minutes previously that around
03:07:31 those few minutes previously that around the time of the trip of the call which we were just looking at a minute ago which wasn't your call about the helicopters do you remember after that call anybody saying to you that that
03:07:42 call anybody saying to you that that they've been advised to leave they must leave when they've been told by nine nine nine they've got to leave no cuz
03:07:55 at that point we actually can't really see each other right because of the smoke yes it was pretty chaotic a last
03:08:09 smoke yes it was pretty chaotic a last stage so if you ask me we were we will
03:08:21 stage so if you ask me we were we will not really actually having conversations with God because everyone was panicking right I was going to ask you did you to
03:08:32 right I was going to ask you did you to see didn't at this stage now have a conversation with no that's him or with Dalia we didn't what about the children no and you then on page three halfway
03:08:46 no and you then on page three halfway down the page you asked the control room operator yeah but will the stairs will it be safe to walk that's my question please like with the fire it's not far
03:08:59 please like with the fire it's not far it's not fire it's smoke okay so it's only smoke it's smoke in the stairwells but saying that you still need to take precautions so keep wet blankets keep wet towels tea towels anything clothing
03:09:10 wet towels tea towels anything clothing put it over your face and nose alright and make your way out make you away now why did you ask whether the whether the
03:09:23 why did you ask whether the whether the stairs would be safe because I want to know so I want to know I wanted to know if there's a fire in the staircase
03:09:34 if there's a fire in the staircase because if there's my understanding it blares fire in the staircase then it's very it's pretty hard for us to run through the fire and I was trying to
03:09:47 through the fire and I was trying to understand how bad the situation was and so when when opera to say it's only smoke to me
03:09:58 smoke to me I feel a little bit possible to wrong sooo small clean running so far if I make sense where do you got the idea that they
03:10:10 where do you got the idea that they might be fire in the stairs I do I well cuz we I didn't know anything like I
03:10:21 cuz we I didn't know anything like I didn't know how the fire spray so I wasn't sure if the fog has come into the stairwell like how bad like cook if he's
03:10:32 stairwell like how bad like cook if he's already luck bad when you were told by the control room operator that it was only smoke it's not fire it's only smoke did you tell the other people in flat
03:10:44 did you tell the other people in flat 193 so that was only smoke and no fire in the stairs
03:11:12 no I think they were on the phone based on my room my memory but I know I didn't
03:11:42 your statement your first statement deals with your avec your you're leaving at paragraph 86 when you say after the
03:11:54 at paragraph 86 when you say after the last phone call to 999 Lydia and I decided to run down the stairs what was it that motivated you finally to make
03:12:07 it that motivated you finally to make that decision that you you didn't make before
03:12:19 well first we so far it is coming from us we can actually see a fire from the window side that made us feel it's
03:12:34 window side that made us feel it's coming it's really coming and the second is the operative based Cultural Center basic site there's no fire the smoke you
03:12:47 basic site there's no fire the smoke you have to you my understanding a lot I was they told us to evacuate the building immediately and so I basically saying if
03:12:59 immediately and so I basically saying if we don't run we would have a tie you were saying that were you oh I was talking to Lydia and we both agree if we
03:13:11 talking to Lydia and we both agree if we don't wrong we don't try and we also were aware like even when wrong we still can possibly die so we decided to take a
03:13:27 can possibly die so we decided to take a chance and she says she will follow me so that's why we decided to leave at
03:13:40 so that's why we decided to leave at that moment that final decision did you did you share that with the other occupants of that one mine through so we're basically as I say work on Reece each other so I basically so say tuna
03:13:57 each other so I basically so say tuna room saying we need to go they asked us to leave but I can't see no reaction to be honest because and you remember where
03:14:08 be honest because and you remember where the smoke was coming from at this at this point just in a few minutes before you decided to make a run for it so a lot time basically
03:14:21 smoke coming from a window sigh as well because as I said we've now it was pretty much the time we started to see a fire from from windows I saw when we
03:14:36 fire from from windows I saw when we solar fire land we can see the smoke has already surrounding the entire flat and then there you can't really tell it's
03:14:49 then there you can't really tell it's from a hallway or from outside because it's just everywhere and you explained
03:15:00 it's just everywhere and you explained in paragraph 86 that you went to the kitchen through and felt for the tap try to open it to the maximum wet the scarf
03:15:12 to open it to the maximum wet the scarf and ran back to the window you say in that paragraph you say you try to open it to the maximum did you succeed try to open the tap to the master yes and you
03:15:25 open the tap to the master yes and you said you got and you had no problem with the water no you're on yeah so that's how I know an award so pressure was fine and you then have described in the
03:15:38 and you then have described in the following paragraphs getting out and you say a paragraph 90 when we got out of the flat the smoke was as bad as before but there are bright white lights in the hallway so it was brighter it was
03:15:49 hallway so it was brighter it was brighter but the smoke was so thick that you couldn't even see your hand even if he held it out in front of your face
03:15:56 do you remember whether there was a difference in the thickness the density of the smoke and the in the communal landing compared with what it was like inside the flat
03:16:25 Oh [Music]
03:16:31 so what
03:16:41 I think it's much darker in the flat lay in the hallway because there was no power cut lot 9 well by the time we left
03:16:54 power cut lot 9 well by the time we left of the flat there shouldn't be power cut but in the flat we actually feel it's like nighttime because it's so dark even with the light was on it it was
03:17:09 even with the light was on it it was quite dark but when we got into the hallway it was smoky but it looks more like white smoke not greyish because we
03:17:22 like white smoke not greyish because we can still see the light above we can't see much but we can see the quite light from above could you still hear the sound of the ventilation fans that you'd heard earlier in the night I didn't pay
03:17:33 earlier in the night I didn't pay attention or focus I was trying to fire a door
03:17:45 when you left the flat for the last time do you remember where the families were start with Bassam and Nadia
03:17:57 start with Bassam and Nadia where were they do you remember they were them both by the window which window the there's only one when there's
03:18:10 window the there's only one when there's actually only one with there was only one window you can have very little and so pretty much everyone is not far from
03:18:21 so pretty much everyone is not far from a lot window right and but I remember base because we can't see people clearly and but because there were on the phone
03:18:32 and but because there were on the phone and important in that they could about a helicopter so I know they would roughly by a window side with which window the
03:18:45 by a window side with which window the window up on a corner so in the living room in a living room with all in the living room sorry I should have asked you is it there was it the west-facing window or the south-facing window in the
03:18:59 window or the south-facing window in the corner maybe that's one too many questions no cuz I can't tell which size
03:19:12 questions no cuz I can't tell which size width okay let me try the people is it to the left of the corner or the right of the corner as you look into the living room so there's a Cornell for a building it's that corner yeah and with
03:19:25 building it's that corner yeah and with the windows to the left or to the right left okay
03:19:29 left okay yep so are you saying everyone when you left the flat everyone in the flat was by that window is that so children were definitely a wrong there okay and I can
03:19:44 you know I can hear them by by by the window talking saying helicopter they were and neuro was pirate dining
03:20:02 they were and neuro was pirate dining table and I didn't see other people actually I didn't see I didn't see Nora's husband or or sons but I saw her
03:20:16 Nora's husband or or sons but I saw her daughter was by the window with just not far in front of me right
03:20:29 then you went into the stairwell having left the flat do you remember whether there was a difference between the smoke in the in the communal landing and the smoke in the stairs it was pretty much a scent
03:20:43 the stairs it was pretty much a scent like prison very thick you can't see anything you can't see the stairwells the handle you can't even sila with the
03:20:59 the handle you can't even sila with the lights in these stairs still on yes as he went down the stairs do you remember noticing any change in temperature no
03:21:12 noticing any change in temperature no temperature was just just warm but it's not like hot it's just warm as you went down do you remember if you saw any
03:21:24 down do you remember if you saw any stairwell doors into lobbies which were out which were open no cuz you can't see them you can't see the doors as you went down do you remember being able to see
03:21:35 down do you remember being able to see the numbering clearly the floor numbering no now a paragraph a hundred of your statement on page eleven you say
03:21:47 of your statement on page eleven you say put on a fifth or sixth floor to the best of my understanding at the time I ran into a fireman and you
03:22:00 ran into a fireman and you describe the conversation and at paragraph 104 just a bit lower down the page you then say when I when I bumped
03:22:12 page you then say when I when I bumped it into the firefighters they were asking questions like could I work walk were there any others with me and then you say in the third line up from the
03:22:23 you say in the third line up from the end of that paragraph I said 22nd floor flat 193 and there was still some more still more than 10 people there they asked if we could walk and saw someone else could help us what
03:22:37 and saw someone else could help us what do you remember where you were when you told the firefighter that there were 10 people still in flat 1 9 3 on the 22nd floor sort of it was we were at the end
03:22:53 floor sort of it was we were at the end of the stairwell so there's a stairwell there's a hallway before you come to the
03:23:05 there's a hallway before you come to the before you go to the ground floor basically at the end of the stairwell and that was a time the firefighter was tricking for we were ok to walk down
03:23:16 tricking for we were ok to walk down stairs by ourselves or they'd have to come with us oh yeah did you see or hear anything about what that firefighter all
03:23:29 anything about what that firefighter all those firefighters did with that information no no basic you just went into a stairwell did you see where they went
03:23:41 stairwell did you see where they went after that no now we know that you left the tower according to the CCTV imagery at 3:22 a.m. and we have a an outgoing
03:23:54 at 3:22 a.m. and we have a an outgoing call in your messages with Lee at 326 and if you can go please to page 504
03:24:05 and if you can go please to page 504 sorry I WS 5 1 4 page 9 it ends at 3:26 and it lasts for 53 seconds I'm sorry I'm jumping on ahead a
03:24:16 seconds I'm sorry I'm jumping on ahead a little bit it's iws 504 paid 9
03:24:38 and you see they're halfway down the the page a phone call lasts 53 seconds and ends I think of 326 which means it would
03:24:50 ends I think of 326 which means it would have started at some wheels of 325 and something yeah so is that is that the call you made as soon as you got all the immediately got out yes okay and after
03:25:06 immediately got out yes okay and after you left the tower do you remember where you went I won an area next to a tube
03:25:18 you went I won an area next to a tube station it was by a big tree and they basically all the people over there a
03:25:29 basically all the people over there a lot a lot of survivors gathering there and ages provides us all the helps we
03:25:40 and ages provides us all the helps we need did you receive any treatment yeah so they they gave us they check if we got an injury outside and then we said
03:25:52 got an injury outside and then we said we didn't have an injury and they just gave us oxygen say we should have it
03:26:06 mr. chairman I've come to the end of my questions dr. Lee I'll be glad to know but I've been asked to ask for a 90 second break that's what I was asked for
03:26:18 second break that's what I was asked for just to check my own notes and to make sure there are no other questions so mr. John what I was going to suggest is we take you take that 90 second break now it may be convenient for the witness to
03:26:29 it may be convenient for the witness to stay there they may get some in your hands well if that's not going to inhibit you or anyone else but it may inhibit other people but that's not mine well we sit here well
03:26:40 that's not mine well we sit here well ladies and confer question flows from time simply because of the shortness of time I mean I mean maybe maybe more seemly to rise but probably less convenient the rest of the room consumed
03:26:52 until 25 past 5:00
03:28:07 if your time is quite up
03:28:46 mistreatment of you and see you scratching
03:30:05 right dr. Lee thank you for your patience first of all when you came down and had the conversation with the firefighters that you described about
03:30:18 firefighters that you described about the those who were left behind in flat 193 in which we were discussing at it do you remember can you describe the firefighters do they have any particular features that you can help us identify
03:30:30 features that you can help us identify them with
03:30:38 no the
03:30:46 well I'll be honest we still they all look the same to me a lot time right can
03:31:01 look the same to me a lot time right can I ask you to get back to the topic we were looking at a minute ago which was where you last saw the families at the point of departure and I've been helpfully reminded by mr. Friedman of
03:31:14 helpfully reminded by mr. Friedman of the reference for the floor plan for flat 193 which is I WS quadruple zero zero five one two and this ought to be
03:31:32 zero five one two and this ought to be helpful
03:31:46 thank you very much well that's very good now can you you can see two windows one to the in in the bottom left-hand
03:31:58 one to the in in the bottom left-hand corner the southwest corner of the flat 193 one window to the north and one window to the east of the column do you see which window was was the window you
03:32:11 see which window was was the window you saw the families next to when you left for the last time so if you see there's a number solo or violin number 2 number
03:32:24 a number solo or violin number 2 number 2
03:32:25 2 okay so would you like to get up and I just pointed on yes that one thank you very much yeah the two is on its side so the sages for the transcript there you
03:32:37 the sages for the transcript there you go to the north of the southwest column of the building on the 22nd floor
03:32:51 do you remember when do you remember when you were in the flat after that after the two cares attempt to leave and
03:33:03 after the two cares attempt to leave and they're coming back in again when Nadia's phone was ringing you hear her phone ringing do you remember that did
03:33:14 phone ringing do you remember that did you have any difficulties with phone reception yourself no a couple of questions about neuro Jamal when she
03:33:27 questions about neuro Jamal when she came in to flat 193 from 1 9 - how was she and was she was she what sort of state was she in
03:33:42 shoes
03:33:53 well panicking if you ask me was she suffering from the effects of fire heat or smoke could you see yes she coming with like
03:34:05 could you see yes she coming with like this and say they it's too bad in their flat they constantly anymore and she was
03:34:17 flat they constantly anymore and she was with her daughter I think I only saw daughter but I was I will assume their family will come together and what sort
03:34:29 family will come together and what sort of state was her daughter in
03:34:36 again panicking shoes basically everyone with this with the Taos in their mouth
03:34:49 with this with the Taos in their mouth trying to come to the window side which is the corner the daughter was crying when I saw her by the window yeah
03:35:06 when I saw her by the window yeah do you remember having a conversation with neuro Jamal just before you left the flat for the last time
03:35:20 he was trying to tell them child tell her we have to go they told us to leave and she was praying all the time and she
03:35:39 and she was praying all the time and she asked me to pray with her
03:35:47 I don't think she was listening to me and and she was insisting me to pray with her
03:35:56 with her this fire can't really speak the language just whoa and you've described that in your statement at paragraph 84 yeah and my
03:36:07 statement at paragraph 84 yeah and my question is how long after that discussion about praying did you leave with Lydia very very soon up to that we
03:36:20 with Lydia very very soon up to that we just decided to go cuz we've we got feeling everyone was giving up so we
03:36:31 feeling everyone was giving up so we have to give you a chance to try now one of the neighbors know you described we discussed earlier was Anthony Tony
03:36:43 discussed earlier was Anthony Tony dissing did you have any contact with him or thoughts about him after you'd gone into flat one-ninth no and three no do you know what happened you know what
03:36:55 do you know what happened you know what he was doing at all no
03:37:02 no I don't know dr. Lee thank you very much for those questions I have one more question
03:37:10 question countries are the general nature is there anything else over and above the two statements written statements that you've given to the inquiry and over and
03:37:21 you've given to the inquiry and over and above what you've told us today about the events of the night that you saw heard or smelt or felt that you think that it's important for the Chairman to know
03:37:36 [Music]
03:37:53 No
03:37:57 very good one that dr. Lee can I thank you very much for your evidence today we very much appreciate your coming to the inquiry and helping us with our investigations I'm sorry that it's taken
03:38:08 investigations I'm sorry that it's taken so long I'm particularly grateful to you for spending the better part of your evening with us so thank you mr. Jamie oh thank you add my thanks so those are mr. millet and you've given evidence for
03:38:20 mr. millet and you've given evidence for a very long time and I'm sorry if it's retiring and in some respects troublesome for you but you've given us some very useful information that I think no one else could have given us so your evidence is very valuable and we're
03:38:32 your evidence is very valuable and we're very grateful to you for coming to give it to us thank you thank you very much and if you'd like to give the ashes you look after thank you
03:38:49 mr. chairman I'm grateful to you and the witness of course for allowing me to it's been longer than I would have expected with this witness but it was
03:39:01 expected with this witness but it was important to ask her those questions yes I quite understand she was an important witness and it was in central lips that everyone's benefit did you did not feel
03:39:12 everyone's benefit did you did not feel rushed I'm grateful I should just say that that has had a small I think knock-on effect in terms of today's reading yeah and I will discuss that with mr. Rawat and my team overnight but
03:39:24 with mr. Rawat and my team overnight but I think the solution to it would be that I will read in the the statements to be read in today tomorrow morning before the next witness and a way to take that long I don't think people understand that that's for the convenient yes thank
03:39:36 that that's for the convenient yes thank you very much well thank you all for staying late I'm sorry we've kept you well beyond the usual finishing and I think it's right and I should thank our Usher's
03:39:45 Usher's transcribers and our documents manager all of whom thank you so we'll resume tomorrow at ten o'clock ten o'clock