Evidence from BSRs (3 October 2018 Pt 1 of 2)

Full transcript

00:00:06 good morning everyone and welcome to today's hearing today we're going to start hearing important evidence from people who were living in the tower at the time was a fire yes yes mr. chairman

00:00:19 the time was a fire yes yes mr. chairman good morning can I now please call Antonia Rumple Otto

00:00:43 yeah

00:00:49 yep

00:00:54 I swear by Almighty God I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and

00:01:05 the whole truth the whole truth and nothing bad and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr. Runkle thank you sit down make yourself comfortable yep good morning mr. Anka darte Ronnie

00:01:16 yep good morning mr. Anka darte Ronnie go I start please by asking you to give the chairman your full name yeah Anton your uncle Apple now on behalf of the inquiry first I want to thank you personally very much indeed for coming here today and for continuing to assist

00:01:29 here today and for continuing to assist the chairman in his search for the truth that your contribution is very much valued it I understand it would be maybe tough for you to sit here and relive

00:01:40 tough for you to sit here and relive events of the night so if at any time you need a break please just signal and we can take a break my questions are supposed to be short and simple sometimes they're not and if you want me to repeat the question I'm very happy to

00:01:53 to repeat the question I'm very happy to do that or to put it in a different way and again I'm very happy to to do that but also I should just say that sometimes when your answer it now I may have to look at my screen or to look at

00:02:05 have to look at my screen or to look at some documents that it doesn't mean I'm not listening to your answer okay and as with all the survivors of this fire who are going to be coming to give evidence in in the coming weeks

00:02:17 in in the coming weeks you you've confirmed to us that your evidence will be limited to phase one of the inquiry and ending the issues around that and that my questions today will

00:02:28 that and that my questions today will therefore focus on the events of the night now you've made three written statements for the inquiry for which we are very grateful can we please have the first of those which is iws five zeros

00:02:41 first of those which is iws five zeros eight nine four and that's the first stage the first page of your first statement and you can you can see it on the monitor on your desk

00:02:52 the monitor on your desk can we look please at the last page of that statement which is page 18 and you see a signature there is that yours yes it is and have you read this statement

00:03:05 it is and have you read this statement recently

00:03:06 recently yes I did yes and can you confirm for us that its contents are true yes there are yes can we now please have the second statement that you did which is iws 9 2 2 dated the 10th of July 2018 is that

00:03:20 2 dated the 10th of July 2018 is that your signature it is indeed thank you and again have you read this statement recently I did yes and again can you confirm for us that its contents are true yeah yes thank you

00:03:30 thank you now I think finally you provided a third statement and that's iws 1 1 0 9 is that is that the first page of that statement

00:03:41 is that the first page of that statement it is yes and if we look at the third page we can see that it's dated the 27th of September 2018 and as a signature above it is that your signature

00:03:52 above it is that your signature it is indeed yes and again have you read the statement recently yes and can you confirm for a city's contents or true theatric yes thank you now in that statement if we can just go back to it

00:04:06 we can see that in paragraph 3 you've said has a very helpful table where you've given times or try to give times for photographs that you took on the night in which you've exhibited to your

00:04:18 night in which you've exhibited to your first statement and you you also make corrections to paragraph 77 and 78 of your statement if you give of your first statement if we just turn to the next page of this statement and I just want

00:04:32 page of this statement and I just want to make sure that that is

00:04:37 and clear to everybody in the room

00:04:43 who seems to have aged to music 30 say you can see the corrections that you made at paragraphs 5 and 6 respectively to paragraph 77 and 78 of your first

00:04:55 to paragraph 77 and 78 of your first witness statement you provided a number of exhibits to that first statement and that we need to put those into the record as well and they are AR 1 - aru

00:05:07 s89 - AR 30 which is I WS 9 - 4 + AR 14 which is I WS 9 - 3 and just say that

00:05:20 which is I WS 9 - 3 and just say that everybody else is aware those are theirs exhibits of floorplans and a set of photographs and the floor plans show the layout of your flat flattened and the floor and they've

00:05:32 flat flattened and the floor and they've been mocked by you and can I just ask you the other photographs with the one exception that you've identified which is the one I think taken by your son the photographs that you yourself took on

00:05:43 photographs that you yourself took on the night yes I did ok and we'll be looking at some of those photographs later on and can I get to give a general

00:05:54 later on and can I get to give a general warning before asking for a photograph taken on the night to be displayed which is that some people might find those photographs distressing and those who do

00:06:05 photographs distressing and those who do should just be aware of the fact that we will be looking at some of those pictures as we go along I will give a more specific warning as we come to them

00:06:15 now just can I just ask you this mr. Alcala tee I think you've told the inquiry that the photographs that were taken on the night were taken with your mobile phone is that right yes it is correct is it right that your

00:06:26 yes it is correct is it right that your phone was damaged after the fire yes it was and I think it's right that you lost those photographs and and also a verbal account that you recorded into the phone unfortunately yes yes but the photographs that you've

00:06:39 yes but the photographs that you've exhibited is this right you were ones that you sent to friends and family and there's that the you've exhibited are those they sent back - yes thank you very much now can we start with an

00:06:53 very much now can we start with an internal photograph of your flats taken before the night of the fire which is iws 8 9 - page 5 which

00:07:04 the fire which is iws 8 9 - page 5 which is exhibit a R - could you just describe for us the room we see there this is my

00:07:15 for us the room we see there this is my living room you can see the television the curtains new windows so far on that occasion we were watching a football game so just you know my home our home

00:07:27 game so just you know my home our home today's wind which direction to those windows face those ones would face east those face east ok say what was good you just described the view that you had from from those windows amazing view

00:07:39 from from those windows amazing view right through the you know to the city you you would see the iconic landmarks of London and the the swimming pool downstairs and amazing you basically

00:07:51 downstairs and amazing you basically very very nice very beautiful and just say for people who aren't that familiar with the layout of the of the tower what could you see to your right if you looked out of the window to the right I

00:08:05 looked out of the window to the right I would see towards Westfield if you know what I mean towards the end the ground station but I would have to turn quite to an angle so yeah but the the major the beautiful

00:08:17 yeah but the the major the beautiful views were right in front of us so yeah having you know no buildings in front of us was beautiful until you left what could you see the Academy and in front

00:08:28 could you see the Academy and in front of us the the leisure center right now you I think lived in your flat on the 10th floor flat 72 for something like 27

00:08:39 10th floor flat 72 for something like 27 years before correct on and you had I think a secure council tenancy with our bkc

00:08:46 bkc correct and then later with the TM oh is that right yes and in June 2017 could you just tell us who was living with you in June 2017 my son Christopher was

00:08:58 in June 2017 my son Christopher was living with me at the tower and yes and anybody else well my sister-in-law was living with us as well but she not she was not in the tenancy agreement I spicy turning to the

00:09:15 tenancy agreement I spicy turning to the Marx plan of the layout of your flat which you did for us can we please look at that that's iaws b89

00:09:22 b89 - at page 2 this is a plan that you

00:09:33 - at page 2 this is a plan that you prepared I think with some assistance when preparing your statement is that right correct and the living room there is marked I think as C yes so the two windows we've been looking at in the

00:09:45 windows we've been looking at in the photograph those the ones marked two and three yes correct you also have four and five yes

00:09:52 five yes what was the view for windows four and five that would look at the underground station and the Westfield yes and then if we go to the bedrooms which I think

00:10:05 if we go to the bedrooms which I think are marked D and E is that right D and E yes yes you would have looked to think again south yes towards the towards the walks and just help me understand this plan is that was

00:10:19 help me understand this plan is that was there a division or some sort of wall between C and D yes of course there was yes right yes sir okay so you could only get into D from

00:10:30 okay so you could only get into D from the hall not from C exactly yes from L visibly from the corridor yes exactly and looking at a is that your kitchen

00:10:41 and looking at a is that your kitchen the kit yes a is the kitchen right can I just ask you from any of the windows that we see there how close to the base

00:10:52 that we see there how close to the base of the tower could you see all the way down all the way down yes could you see where the wall of the tower met the ground yes if you'll lean out right a bit yes you would yes okay

00:11:05 out right a bit yes you would yes okay now can I take you them to but let's just clarify one or two things first before we leave this plan just identify Jay

00:11:14 Jay on Ju se cupboard old gas meter boiler and then you've marked at 21 on this map and it's on the next page of this plan

00:11:26 and it's on the next page of this plan proposed you call it proposed new location of boiler could you just help us identify those so Jay is is at the top of the drawing under six isn't it yes but is that where the old boiler was

00:11:39 yes but is that where the old boiler was yes and then the new boiler just to be clear where was that the new boiler the original place to the new boiler would have been according to the plan but the entrance number 21 right however I did

00:11:51 entrance number 21 right however I did not have installed in there but back into position 6j right I see se went into where it was before yes very good can I then ask you to turn please to

00:12:02 can I then ask you to turn please to your statement your first statement and go to paragraph 12 and we'll look at it

00:12:14 go to paragraph 12 and we'll look at it together you say a new front door was fitted around five to six years before the fire but I cannot remember the exact date I opted for a white door with two mottled glass panes it had a letterbox

00:12:27 mottled glass panes it had a letterbox with brushes initially the new door was very heavy and difficult to open after I called the TMO to repair this they removed the mechanism from the new door so it would stay open unless you

00:12:38 so it would stay open unless you physically closed it it felt a lot lighter

00:12:40 lighter I had no further issues with the front door after this time um first of all can I just ask you about this new front door do you know why a new front door was

00:12:53 do you know why a new front door was fitted I think it was part of a renewal project from the council from the TMO to have new doors and installed and yeah

00:13:05 have new doors and installed and yeah and we were given the choice of you know what design we would have and when I opted for that one okay did anybody give you any fire safety advice about these doors at that time

00:13:16 doors at that time no okay and what were the choices you say oh I opted for a white door with two modelled glass panes what would the other choice and remember somehow that would be totally

00:13:27 would be totally without any glass some other only with a part of it at the top with let's say half moon and so on so I opted for this one okay you then go on to say that

00:13:42 one okay you then go on to say that initially the noodle was very heavy and difficult to open collapsed a ski was it the weight of the door that made it difficult or was the door closed the mechanism that made it heavy it was the claw that the door closed mechanism that

00:13:55 claw that the door closed mechanism that would really you would have to put an effort to close the door and back to click to open the door and then to close it again right so that's why it was really difficult ok with the door slam

00:14:06 really difficult ok with the door slam shut

00:14:07 shut very yes I think yes it would really you know the moment you go out it would push you out right yeah it was like a bit heavy yeah so basically difficult to

00:14:18 heavy yeah so basically difficult to open but very easy to close and it would push you somehow now you say you called the TMO to repair the door who did you

00:14:31 the TMO to repair the door who did you call do you remember I remember perhaps the key mode the line that you know is provided to us to have contact with them in case of emergency or you know repairs

00:14:42 in case of emergency or you know repairs and shortly after they came and basically they cut off this this chain that would withhold the door to the frame and the door was much lighter

00:14:54 right did they give you any advice about whether it was sensible to cut off the chain the zero advices right

00:15:06 did did the London Fire Brigade ever inspect your front door after they cut the chain off after the TMO had cut the chain off no no were you ever advised to

00:15:18 chain off no no were you ever advised to refit for closing mechanism no to the best of your knowledge or memory mr. Alcala did other residents in the tower

00:15:29 Alcala did other residents in the tower have their door closes removed in the same way you did I don't know I don't remember okay now can I ask you to look

00:15:41 remember okay now can I ask you to look at paragraph 14 of your statement you say prior to the fire new windows were fitted and I had an issue with a draft coming in through the windows even when they were closed and

00:15:55 windows even when they were closed and then you go on to say lower down that paragraph I also experienced a draft coming from underneath the window in the kitchen and the window labeled number

00:16:08 kitchen and the window labeled number two in green in the living room on the flats floor plan exhibited as a r1i remedied this by covering the gap a plastic filler to stop the draft first can we just just identify exactly which

00:16:20 can we just just identify exactly which window were talking about by reference to your plan at ar1 we can please get back to that that's iaws eight nine 200 page two if we can just get back at page

00:16:33 page two if we can just get back at page thank you that's helpful if you go to window marked two in green could you just identify that for us yes that was not the window where the draft

00:16:45 that was not the window where the draft came in initially right which were the window in the kitchen I said that I basically fixed myself with the filler to stop the draft from coming in I see

00:16:57 to stop the draft from coming in I see okay say that's what about window so that's window number one just so we're clear yes I see and so what about window number two that you refer to in your statement window number two obviously

00:17:09 statement window number two obviously there was a gap but I you know it was not very big that the big one wasn't between the number one going into number

00:17:20 between the number one going into number - basically yeah the windows were made in in a way that there would be a frame going all along from number one to number three let's say and among amongst

00:17:33 number three let's say and among amongst you know along that side there would be this draft coming in and the strongest part of the draft would be between number one and two basically let's say were the number four is and I remember

00:17:45 were the number four is and I remember they're putting you know fixing it myself with me with some filler in order not to have draft coming in right but the main part the most draft was coming in I think you say from the bottom is

00:17:56 in I think you say from the bottom is this right of window number one yes when we're talking about a draft before the fire yes before the fire yes it was number one yes number one and going into

00:18:07 number one yes number one and going into number two yes but obviously they're nice you know I didn't do anything further because there was no need because you know I didn't feel so much draft anymore so that the biggest gap was closed I closed it I see okay just

00:18:20 was closed I closed it I see okay just let's just take a step back and and get some more detail about about this draft first of all when were these new windows fitted had any when were these new windows fitted the windows were fitted

00:18:32 windows fitted the windows were fitted during the refurbishment perhaps during the latter stage of the refurbishment 2015/16 I think I don't remember exactly now they the year but during the

00:18:44 now they the year but during the refurbishment of the tower itself did you have an issue with drafts through one or more windows immediately after they were fitted do you remember yes and

00:18:56 they were fitted do you remember yes and that's why I I decided to do I call them I called the right do not remember and then but but I fix it myself basically

00:19:07 then but but I fix it myself basically because I couldn't wait right did you rather you spoke to a writin oh yes a spoke dude I don't in many many occasions do you remember you spoke to a Ryden about this draft yes

00:19:20 spoke to a Ryden about this draft yes when I spoke about the draft and also spoke about the draft coming in from the little vent on top of the windows right that some windows were fitted with yes

00:19:32 that some windows were fitted with yes do you remember who you spell to which individual I don't I guess you would speak over the phone and that would and then in many occasion we have

00:19:43 would and then in many occasion we have two ladies that would come and check and liaise with us residents you know between us and and and and the workers basically I see two more two ladies from from Ryan from ride on yes okay do you

00:19:55 from Ryan from ride on yes okay do you remember their names no okay how intense were all strong was the draft that you felt coming through the kitchen window well it in one

00:20:08 the kitchen window well it in one occasion I mean and one of one of the gap was quite big so and the words like you could you could you know right next between one and two where number four is there I would have my breakfast table

00:20:21 there I would have my breakfast table okay there will be a table and sitting you know under you know sitting which obviously with your leg under the table you would you would feel the draft coming from the window that's why I

00:20:34 coming from the window that's why I decided to I'm gonna do the job myself really yeah could you could you see the gap with your with the naked eye no because it was quite low so you would have to go you know with but you could feel it you put your hands in there and

00:20:46 feel it you put your hands in there and you feel the the air the cold air coming through okay it was coming underneath the windows yes yes you know the ledges

00:20:58 the windows yes yes you know the ledges at that height below the ledge yes where the ledge meets the wall or yes yes yes so I don't want to suggest things to you Burgess no no no that that's exactly where yeah that way would come from did

00:21:10 where yeah that way would come from did no did you fit the plastic filler yourself yes did you get any advice as to what filler to put in no did you tell that did you

00:21:22 to put in no did you tell that did you tell right and all the TMO that you've done it no did it solve the problem yes but my intention was to you know to go

00:21:33 but my intention was to you know to go on and fill also the remaining parts of it because it wasn't at the end of the day not a difficult job but then you know I never did it so do you know or have any recollection as to whether

00:21:45 or have any recollection as to whether other residents in the tower had similar draught problems coming through their windows after the refurbishment no but I remember someone saying that yeah there

00:21:57 remember someone saying that yeah there would be some draft coming from the top of the window where the little vents are well and and then it was explained to us that that was for the condensation for

00:22:08 that that was for the condensation for you know the hell you have to have a little gap in there and which you can close or you can open depending on the but it is part of the window being fitted that way so no thank you

00:22:25 fitted that way so no thank you now can I turn on in your statement to paragraph 48 and 49 if you just look ahead in it its page 8 of your statement

00:22:39 ahead in it its page 8 of your statement and I just want to ask you some questions about fire safety you say you were never given and it will not given

00:22:50 were never given and it will not given any information regarding fire safety when I first moved into ground floor tower when the TMO took over management of the tower I believe they may have given me a blue booklet with generic information inside but I do not remember

00:23:02 information inside but I do not remember there being any fire safety information and then in 49 you say I do remember there was a sign by the lifts on the ground floor stating not to use them in the event of a fire I do not recall any further fire safety information on this

00:23:14 further fire safety information on this sign I was not aware of the stay-put advice at Grenville tower in fact I would have left my flat on the 14th of June 2017 if the smoke had not been so bad I've read that all to you because I

00:23:25 bad I've read that all to you because I have a number of questions about about that

00:23:27 that and first of all can we please have up a photograph which is not a photograph of the building on fire mr. chairman say

00:23:38 the building on fire mr. chairman say it's a photograph of the interior this is BL a quadruple zero two four one six

00:23:50 and if we can just have that the right way up that would be possible

00:24:08 and I wonder whether and we can just enlarge that thank you very much this is a fire safety notice which it was was

00:24:20 a fire safety notice which it was was sighted but at the lifts and this one is on floor three my question is and do you remember seeing a notice like this between the lifts on floor 10 where you

00:24:31 between the lifts on floor 10 where you lived to be honest with you I don't remember okay now it's not that easy to read but if you look at the second green

00:24:45 read but if you look at the second green block on the notice it says you should initially be safe to stay in your flat keeping the doors and windows closed on arrival the fire brigade will make an assessment and will assist with

00:24:56 assessment and will assist with evacuation if required

00:24:59 do you remember knowing about that advice or having that advice in your head as at the night of the fire not really did you ever get any advice

00:25:10 not really did you ever get any advice either from the tno or from the London Fire Brigade beyond what's on this notice now leaving this notice on one

00:25:22 notice now leaving this notice on one side mr. Rock LRT as at June 2017 do you remember what your understanding was of what you as a resident of grenfell tower

00:25:33 what you as a resident of grenfell tower should do if there was a fire in the building to get out of there as quickly as possible right that was your understanding was yes okay now I'm going to show the

00:25:44 yes okay now I'm going to show the witness mr. chairman some photographs of first of all of the interior of the tower after the fire and again I have to give this warning say the people if they feel uncomfortable about looking at

00:25:56 feel uncomfortable about looking at these can either leave the room or it will go away from the screen if they're watching remotely can we please start with BL a quadruple zero two five one

00:26:08 with BL a quadruple zero two five one three

00:26:20 and this is actually upside down there now we can see it in that photograph a

00:26:31 now we can see it in that photograph a white object or look which looks like a detector on the ceiling do you know what that is smoke detector smoke detector you thing and do you know whether one of

00:26:42 you thing and do you know whether one of those was installed in the lobby outside your flat on the floor no there wasn't there wasn't okay if there was it wasn't functioning that night right this one is

00:26:59 functioning that night right this one is taken from floor six to be clear but you you think there wasn't one outside your flat

00:27:03 flat I don't recall but if there was he would have gone off that night because the smoke was quite intense but I'm the only smoke detector that went off was wearing

00:27:16 smoke detector that went off was wearing my flats in my flat right now can I get back at your statement to paragraph 25

00:27:31 you say there for many years there was a very nice man with a cockney accent who used to wear a black tie with a white

00:27:42 used to wear a black tie with a white shirt who I believe may have been the caretaker or the concierge for the tower I did not see him after the recent refurbishment residents wanted concierge to be reinstated first mr. Alcala did

00:27:55 to be reinstated first mr. Alcala did you remember whether the concierge sat physically inside the tower yes where exactly do you remember at the entrance as you would enter the tower

00:28:06 entrance as you would enter the tower that is before you enter the second door on the left hand side there would be a small office-like and you would see all the screens behind you know with the CCTV cameras you know being projected in

00:28:18 CCTV cameras you know being projected in there and and the concierge sitting in there all the time most of the times you you say all the time coming at me just get some some more detail about that what were their hours of duty do you remember you know what do you remember I

00:28:31 remember you know what do you remember I would see them continuously also in late I mean late evenings I don't recall very often but during the day and during weekends they would be there yes right

00:28:42 weekends they would be there yes right was it so far as you remember 24 hours concierge desk yeah yeah perhaps they were not there 24 hours perhaps at night maybe they were at the office behind it but there was there was a presence there

00:28:54 but there was there was a presence there most of the times yeah and specifically do you remember whether somebody was on duty within the building at night or through the night I don't remember okay

00:29:09 yeah if they weren't at the desk in the night of the middle of the night was there a number or a button you could press get hold of the concierge I think

00:29:21 press get hold of the concierge I think that you know at the desk that I mean it was all behind glass so there was a little window and maybe if you knock they will come out so okay now

00:29:32 you knock they will come out so okay now you say you didn't see the concierge after the recent refurbishment happened to the place where the concierge will sit the base of the tower

00:29:45 concierge will sit the base of the tower wall the ground floor was completely redesigned therefore that place had gone so it was a totally different lay out basically and the concierge is gone do

00:29:59 basically and the concierge is gone do you know where the concierge went well the lady that used to be there on duty she moved to a another office close to

00:30:12 she moved to a another office close to the tower on the way to the underground basically but there was there was not such a an office for the concierge at the tower after the refurbishment did he

00:30:25 the tower after the refurbishment did he after the refurbishment did you ever have caused yourself to try to get hold of the concierge person yes yes I did in a few occasions and assembly it would answer and if you need to have let's say

00:30:37 answer and if you need to have let's say to discuss something you would have to go there and walk maybe this you know 200 meters to go to her office as it was there a way of calling the concierge remotely or did you have to go

00:30:48 remotely or did you have to go physically to the office no you have to go there physically to the office you would have them and you did that you in a couple of occasions yes to report some issues or some little problems that or something that you want to discuss

00:31:00 something that you want to discuss personally rather than on the phone then I went here right okay was there a phone number that you could you could ring them up on yes yes yes yes it was no

00:31:16 if you wanted to get hold of the concierge in the middle of the night after the refurb how would you go about doing that

00:31:26 there is the was actually never happened to me to call the concierge or to have to call the concierge in the middle of the night however during weekends it has happened that I've had a problem that I

00:31:37 happened that I've had a problem that I had to report and we had a number which I did call in a few in a few occasions over the years and then somebody would come after perhaps hours but somebody

00:31:48 come after perhaps hours but somebody would come to have a look at the problem if he was an urgent one do you remember whether they used to be before the refurbishment a communal alarm system perhaps Dewar's but I am

00:32:05 alarm system perhaps Dewar's but I am not aware or he never sounded like put on a big emergency so right after the refurbishment who would monitor the CCTV

00:32:16 refurbishment who would monitor the CCTV cameras at Grenville Tara I don't know okay and you say in the same paragraph

00:32:27 okay and you say in the same paragraph came back to paragraph 25 residents wanted concierge to be reinstated do you know whether the residents asked for the concierge to be reinstated yes well this

00:32:38 concierge to be reinstated yes well this was also the question at the beginning of the refurbishment why you know would the concierge have to go and and after they went on with the refurbishment and I know that some residents took

00:32:51 I know that some residents took initiative and started a petition to get the concierge reinstated at the tower and how many residents got behind that petition I believe quite a lot I don't

00:33:03 petition I believe quite a lot I don't know exactly the number because then you know we know what happened but yes we were in the process of you know fighting for this again right and what happened what was the result I think it came to

00:33:16 what was the result I think it came to nothing because the fire came right so the petition was still ongoing yes believe so yes right and prior to

00:33:29 yes believe so yes right and prior to the fire do you know from your own knowledge what what the response to the petition was well we we would have liked to have it but that would have

00:33:41 to have it but that would have implemented more costs that's what the chemo would say to us and but we were still trying to find a way to you know to persuade them to you know to help

00:33:52 to persuade them to you know to help this service that we had and was taken away right now you say in paragraph 46 if I can just take you back to that you

00:34:08 if I can just take you back to that you identify two women from Ryder and who would Lee a is with the with with somebody you don't say regarding the work being carried out and to keep us updated

00:34:17 updated there were also regular newsletters my question is looking at that paragraph who would the who would who would the we

00:34:28 who would the who would who would the we be I can put it that way you say we who we would liaised with regarding the work it will it be all residents or just some residents

00:34:43 what the residence yes we residents yes so it was a general a general channel of communication yes I follow and in the

00:34:54 communication yes I follow and in the last sentence there will last two sentences you say that they would keep you updated apart from the newsletters that you refer to in the last sentence how did write and keep residents updated

00:35:09 not much differently than the newsletter aha and what was the method of communication in the letter this this information leaflet

00:35:20 information leaflet I mean leaflet F for sighs yeah you see the reason I ask is that you say there were also regular newsletters and numbers just wondering whether in addition to the newsletters there was any other method of communication that

00:35:32 any other method of communication that not as far as they're not only the newsletters okay can we now then turn to the events of of the night are you okay to carry on yes okay and you deal with that at paragraph

00:35:44 okay and you deal with that at paragraph 51 and following of your of your statement you tell us that you returned home on the evening of Tuesday the 13th of June at about 8:00 p.m. and went to

00:35:56 of June at about 8:00 p.m. and went to bed about 9:30 to 10:00 o'clock and you then say in paragraph 54 that your bedroom window was closed can you remember if you left any other

00:36:09 can you remember if you left any other windows open before going to bed that night

00:36:11 night no all we're closed now looking at paragraph 55 you say the next thing I remember is waking up to a call from my

00:36:23 remember is waking up to a call from my son around 1:40 a.m. christopher was crying and said get out of the house the towers burning I love you pappi get out and how did you know what the time was

00:36:38 and how did you know what the time was do you remember how you got that 140 from well I must have looked at the phone after afterwards perhaps you know but then obviously when the moment I got

00:36:49 but then obviously when the moment I got up then I went you know checked around in my bedroom looking out we know then I went to the kitchen and I've got the you know clock in the kitchen as well so I saw the time yes now we have a statement from your son

00:37:01 now we have a statement from your son Christopher who says his wreck his the call was made at 142 34 according to his phone records and it lasted about four minutes

00:37:10 minutes does that accord with your recollection yes yes okay now at paragraphs 57 onwards to 63 of your statement you describe your movements looking out of

00:37:24 describe your movements looking out of your bedroom window and then moving to the kitchen and opening the kitchen window and a paragraph 60 you say I was shocked at what was happening but at

00:37:35 shocked at what was happening but at this stage I did not feel in too much danger they did not seem to be much smoke and I couldn't see the full magnitude of the fire and when you say I

00:37:46 magnitude of the fire and when you say I couldn't didn't seem to be too much smoke were you aware of any smoke inside your flat at that time no at that time there was no smoke inside my flight and

00:37:57 there was no smoke inside my flight and my flat only a little bit of let's say like dark thick dust you know if you look at against the light and you would

00:38:08 look at against the light and you would see you know rather more dust than you normally would see on a clear day so there was you know something coming through from somewhere but no ops no specific place from where the smoke

00:38:20 specific place from where the smoke would come through it and did you could you tell whether the very light smoke was coming from no it was just like yeah

00:38:31 was coming from no it was just like yeah dust very thick dust right and you you say in 62 if you go on to that paragraph I initially left the kitchen window open

00:38:44 I initially left the kitchen window open why did you do that well because I was I opened the window in order to look downstairs to look and obviously I could see that a lot of people were standing and shouting right and and I realized

00:38:58 and shouting right and and I realized that it was something unusual going on and yeah and also to to to make myself seeing unknown by police or fire firefighters that

00:39:09 by police or fire firefighters that embarr so basically yeah yeah you're instant and then in the next sentence you say however a small piece of smoking debris entered my flat through the window

00:39:19 window so I closed it again do you remember where that piece of debris came from from above so there must have been somehow socketing you know from the draft right into my flat this is your

00:39:32 draft right into my flat this is your kitchen window - so to remind us this is on the east side yes and we've got a photograph of that if we can just look at that that's a r6 which

00:39:43 can just look at that that's a r6 which we have it I WS 8 9 - page 13

00:39:59 just to be clear I think you've corrected the timing of this photograph because we can see it's light outside I think you corrected this in your first statement to around 5:00 a.m. yeah the

00:40:10 statement to around 5:00 a.m. yeah the fact is that the the the debris came in much earlier than that yes and then I try to you know clean up a little bit but then the window was I close the

00:40:21 but then the window was I close the window obviously and then I took that picture a little bit later when you know when when I managed to clear up somehow the smoke that came in you know during

00:40:33 the smoke that came in you know during the night and they said when we look at the windowsill on this photograph is that the burn mark from the debris that yes yes it is I'm clearing up mark yes yes I see and hmm and you then saying

00:40:44 yes I see and hmm and you then saying that it came back to paragraph 62 we can take that photograph and off you then say paragraph 62 I also noticed this is

00:40:56 say paragraph 62 I also noticed this is the last sentence I also noticed that there was a thin layer of gray smoke up at the ceiling in both the hallway and the kitchen when you're referring there

00:41:07 the kitchen when you're referring there to a thin layer of smoke did you notice that at that time this thin layer of gray smoke was basically the dust that was talking earlier about so this is you

00:41:19 was talking earlier about so this is you know another way of describing it yes I see and did that smoke have any physical effect on you over time not at the time he was very light he was like yeah no not so bad no were you aware of any

00:41:32 not so bad no were you aware of any smoke outside in the other window in the flat because we're talking about the kitchen window here but no not at that stage we're talking here about the timing here is about yeah two o'clock 2:30 right yeah so that time was okay

00:41:45 2:30 right yeah so that time was okay until then the gray dark gray smoke started to come in from the window ledges right welcome we'll come to that in a moment just at this point didn't

00:41:57 in a moment just at this point didn't were the smoke alarms operating in your flat do they go off there's no not at this stage and when you looked out of your bedroom window or kitchen window could you see flames no

00:42:09 could you see flames no then it just same page of your statement but can we just get back up a paragraph to the very end of paragraph 59 you say I could hear a crackling sound from outside

00:42:19 outside I also saw sparks which reminded me of fireworks you describe the crackling the sound can you could you just tell us a bit about that okay it's more about that sound it was like when you hear or see a

00:42:35 sound it was like when you hear or see a piece of dry wood burning and it's like a clean crispy noise that's what I could hear mmm do you remember which direction

00:42:48 hear mmm do you remember which direction it was coming from when you heard it was East it was from the kitchen window so basically I believe that the fire was right on my left on that side in the east side now I'm going to show you two

00:43:03 east side now I'm going to show you two more photographs and I again should give a warning at this point about these they are they are photographs which may be distressing so I'll just wait 10 seconds or so so that people can leave if they

00:43:15 or so so that people can leave if they wish to I'll just give the reference to the truck the documents director it's AR 3 @ IW s 8 9 to page 11 pause pause a

00:43:30 3 @ IW s 8 9 to page 11 pause pause a second before we put it on the screen

00:43:34 [Music]

00:43:42 I don't think anyone should be moving

00:43:54 it's eight nine to page eleven is actually a are five they are five eight nine to page 11 now this is a photograph we just need to I think rotate it a

00:44:06 we just need to I think rotate it a quarter turn to the right

00:44:16 but first of all if you can tell me is that is that the right way around mr. Alcala - this is wrong it has to be make it was before Oh was it right okay yes

00:44:28 it was before Oh was it right okay yes and just a sister's will you on what we see in this photograph the orange coloring at the bottom what is that well

00:44:40 coloring at the bottom what is that well that would be at the bottom well you see normally outside it would be darker this time of the night and I believe it is orange e because of the fire reflection

00:44:53 orange e because of the fire reflection the flames are reflecting from above the tower basically and this is the the Academy I see and if you look at the photograph in its normal state can we

00:45:06 photograph in its normal state can we see what else can we see in that photograph well all these white bits and pieces that you see are all debris is falling down from from above obviously the camera a mobile phone camera is not

00:45:18 the camera a mobile phone camera is not as accurate as a camera proper camera but these are all little pieces falling down from above and which window is this taken from this kitchen kitchen pretty

00:45:30 taken from this kitchen kitchen pretty much sure is the kitchen and you say that's the Academy we have had me yes and I reflected off it yes outside was brighter than usual basically because of

00:45:41 brighter than usual basically because of the fire could you see debris falling from any other window perhaps the window

00:45:55 from any other window perhaps the window number two in the living room I do not remember now but if we go on then we have a big chunk of cladding falling down that I managed to capture and it

00:46:07 down that I managed to capture and it was from the east side basically the debris falling downward from the east side either the window kitchen or the one next to it in the living room now

00:46:18 one next to it in the living room now the second picture I want to show you I think is one that your son Christopher sent you by text and that's a r7 which we have at reference eight nine to pay

00:46:29 we have at reference eight nine to pay fifteen is that is that correct yes this is the photograph sent to you by your

00:46:40 is the photograph sent to you by your son the other way round and you believe that you would have received this no later than 2:00 a.m. I think yes until yes I think it was the second phone call that I had with Christopher and and they

00:46:52 that I had with Christopher and and they told me you see believe me it is really big so it's really dangerous now we know you've made a first attempt to leave your flat do you think you received this

00:47:04 your flat do you think you received this picture before or after that first attempt I think it was I received the

00:47:15 attempt I think it was I received the photo I think after I think I made the attempt to leave the flat as soon as you know Christopher told me you know that there is a big fire so I got ready and

00:47:27 there is a big fire so I got ready and then I remember sending receiving this photo and realizing you know the the gravity of it so much yes how big it was

00:47:40 gravity of it so much yes how big it was yes I just say you're clear your son Christopher exhibits the same photograph to his witness statement which were going to be putting into the record later this morning and he says he can't

00:47:52 later this morning and he says he can't give a precise time for the photograph but it was shortly after the call he made to you at about 140 - yes so basically we had the first call and then I assessed a little bit I got ready

00:48:03 I assessed a little bit I got ready obviously a hang-up I tried to get out and then he sent me this one so basically yes okay

00:48:18 now game back if we can too

00:48:29 yes I see okay so so the fact this photograph came in is easy sit after your first attempt to get out you think yes yes so we're clear about yes yes yes yes okay now game back if I can to

00:48:41 yes okay now game back if I can to paragraph 68 of your statement you say Christopher called after sending the photograph of the burning tower he was

00:48:53 photograph of the burning tower he was with a fire marshal and handed the phone over to him we had a short conversation where I confirmed my location the far Marshall told me to stay put as the fire was not near my flat and they would come and get me I felt reassured after this call and was

00:49:06 I felt reassured after this call and was this conversation before or after you had made your first attempt to leave it was after after after did you discuss

00:49:18 was after after after did you discuss the conditions in the lobby that you'd seen on your first attempt to leave with the fire marshal I don't recall perhaps I did but for

00:49:30 I don't recall perhaps I did but for surely told me to stay put that someone will come and get me right but you use the word fire marshal did the person you spoke to identify themselves as a fire

00:49:41 spoke to identify themselves as a fire marshal no no no I said fire marshal to say five hiders of fire yeah person in charge downstairs Oh all officer an officer yes right did that person

00:49:53 officer yes right did that person identify themselves do you remember me no I don't think so was no not a man or a woman whose face it was a man

00:50:04 and do you say they would come and get me can remember what he more precisely what what the man said to you stay well very much

00:50:15 very much stay put somebody was coming to get you it was very determined in his affirmation in his in his words to not to try anything risky basically that they were aware I was there and they

00:50:28 they were aware I was there and they will come and get me yes now moving on in your statement to paragraph well actually its back a little if it's 63 you this is where you describe the your

00:50:40 you this is where you describe the your effort to leave you say you got dressed you put your shoes on you packed a number of essentials so did you move around the flat when you were doing that

00:50:51 around the flat when you were doing that or you in one place well I picked up the most important things I could think of put it in the rucksack and that was made basically in my bedroom to pick up some

00:51:02 basically in my bedroom to pick up some stuff and then the laptop from the living room and that was all that I could put in basically so did you notice whether there had been any change in the conditions within the flat when you were

00:51:14 conditions within the flat when you were moving around doing that no this was still at the very early stage because as I said I was trying I wanted to get out so there was no significant changes so

00:51:25 so there was no significant changes so light gray dust or smoke but no significant changes right and what

00:51:36 significant changes right and what prompted your decision to try to leave

00:51:41 because of the photo that Christopher sent me so and I realized that yes I have to to see an analyze and assess if I can get my way out but obviously it

00:51:55 I can get my way out but obviously it was extremely dangerous I you know once I saw I tried and I realized that the smoke outside was very strong very black very

00:52:09 it wouldn't be possible to breathe it was very it would take your breath away basically so it was like you know I felt like the moment I opened the door I feel like I've been hit by a gas as well as

00:52:22 like I've been hit by a gas as well as smoke so basically it would stop me from breathing so I said oh you know you can't go you cannot go out there so that's why I closed prom promptly and my eyes were you know crying like you know

00:52:34 eyes were you know crying like you know it was really horrible so that's why I closed the door and I went to rinse my eyes in the bathroom yes yes you're you

00:52:45 eyes in the bathroom yes yes you're you cover this in paragraph 64 of your statement if we can just turn to that

00:52:52 let's look at some of the detail he said I went I then went towards my front door it was warm to the touch can we just get a feeling for how how well first of all the which part of the

00:53:04 well first of all the which part of the door was warm to the touch well I touched first like this you know with the back of my hand and then the handle but very carefully and it was quite not hot but it was very warm right

00:53:15 quite not hot but it was very warm right but still nevertheless I said okay I can handle it so I opened a little bit and the moment I opened it was like I was invested with this path of smoke and I closed right away and for some reason

00:53:27 closed right away and for some reason silly reason I even put the chain you know to close the door properly so it was like an instinct instinct 'iv reaction so but he was really scared me so it was really I I've managed to think

00:53:42 so it was really I I've managed to think okay if you try to go there you cannot see you cannot breathe you maybe you lose your bearings you lose your senses you I don't know I was really it was really scary yeah so what color was the

00:53:55 really scary yeah so what color was the smoke a pitch black pitch black black did you did you smell it of course what'd it smell horrible something like never before

00:54:07 something like never before I mean you smell you know occasionally some smoke from something but this was was really intense and yeah a killer to

00:54:19 was really intense and yeah a killer to me that was a killer yeah you say my eyes were stinging I was almost crying was there any other part of your your body no just because obviously it was properly dressed and you know my face

00:54:31 properly dressed and you know my face was the only part exposed and yeah that's where the biggest impact King yes and you say it was impossible to breathe I mean this is a very difficult question

00:54:42 I mean this is a very difficult question but you remember how many breaths of the smoke you took one perhaps or two but it was enough for me to shut the door understand and you say the smoke was

00:54:55 understand and you say the smoke was very smelly and hot yes actually yes very very warm yes very very warm where did you feel the warmth in my face brightening my face right could you see

00:55:08 brightening my face right could you see any fire no could you see anything out onto the soot of visibility as you

00:55:17 approached your closed front door to open it to try to get her did you notice whether there was smoke coming through any of the gaps around it or any gaps around it the door yes no the door was

00:55:28 around it the door yes no the door was was properly sealed and and closed and there was no smoke coming in and you when you opened the door did much smoke

00:55:40 when you opened the door did much smoke come into your flat no no no not much because it was a instant reaction to close it straightaway because of the intensity because of the the heat because of the yeah it was like horrible

00:55:54 because of the yeah it was like horrible so I closed right away okay and you you say that

00:56:04 you why let me ask it this way did you see any lights on that on in the lobby at all no zero zero

00:56:21 after you had washed your face as you say you did did you have any lasting effects of the smoke no and after you

00:56:36 effects of the smoke no and after you shut the front door and I think you went to the bathroom washed your face did you then move around your your flat after that yes I was continuously moving around to assess to check to see what is

00:56:48 around to assess to check to see what is going on if I could signify if I could see any any potential danger during this time I had various conversations with Christopher and then with people that started calling me and and one of the

00:57:00 started calling me and and one of the conversation was the the photo that Christopher sent me and also the fire official that told me to stay put and and when he told me stay put somebody's

00:57:12 and when he told me stay put somebody's coming to get you I you know I kept my jacket on even my rucksack on my shoulder because I thought it would be happening soon and then after a while I realized oh it's gonna take some time here so I I took my jacket oh because it

00:57:24 here so I I took my jacket oh because it was quite warm and and then that's when I started around 2:30 to see the smoke coming in from the windows right we're

00:57:37 coming in from the windows right we're going to turn to that in a moment mr. chair I noticed we've been going you just under an hour yes and I know that are now as evidence is quite a lot yes well most people giving evidence fine

00:57:49 well most people giving evidence fine that's an hour at a time is enough and quite nice have a break so should we have a short break now yeah all right we'll we'll stop now then for ten minutes I have to ask you please not to

00:58:02 minutes I have to ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence during the break and then if you go with the usher we'll start again at ten past eleven yeah yeah thank you very much mr.

00:58:13 eleven yeah yeah thank you very much mr. Joe I should just say by way of further trigger warning that after the break and I'll repeat it after the break that we will be coming back to look at some further photographs that were taken on the night all right thank you well ten

00:58:25 the night all right thank you well ten past eleven please

01:09:19 it

01:09:38 right mister uncle Otto yeah are you comfortable you've got a dress yes would you would you rather have that fan turned off I think so yeah possible yeah thought

01:09:49 I think so yeah possible yeah thought you might Kemp where's the action I said would you mind seeing if you can sort up the fan that's a bit too obtrusive should we just turn it off from see

01:10:05 well no that's my thank you if you get if you now get too hot now he wouldn't I was perfectly comfortable before I'm comfortable now as well but I mean I have to consider others as well yes well

01:10:16 have to consider others as well yes well you just shot a few months on your change right yeah thanks just a minute mr. Alcala say thank you very much for coming coming back to us and I want now to look at three more photographs with you if I can the first is your exhibit ar8 which is I

01:10:30 the first is your exhibit ar8 which is I WS 892 at page 17 now according to your latest statement your third statement I think you took this at 2:30 or around

01:10:44 think you took this at 2:30 or around about 2:30 is that right correct and could you just tell us what what we can see in this picture right these are brand new windows installed only a few

01:10:57 brand new windows installed only a few months before and you can see from the bottom part of it that is smoke coming in through these tiny little gaps that

01:11:08 in through these tiny little gaps that we're still there basically and could you just show us where on the picture we can see the smoke coming coming in in in detail well it's it is there it's at the

01:11:21 detail well it's it is there it's at the bottom of the picture and the bottom yeah the very bottom is it there yes I see there yes so it was I'm sorry to keep asking detailed question if it was

01:11:33 keep asking detailed question if it was it bubbling up through a gap or was it coming in at a joint between the glass and the PVC no it came through through

01:11:45 and the PVC no it came through through the frame through the frame yeah which was not airtight I see and this window is I think you say the window on the

01:11:59 is I think you say the window on the east side and the building number two I think it's number two right so you're that's your living room yes right and in your statement you say that at paragraph

01:12:12 your statement you say that at paragraph 69 and and indeed at 70

01:12:19 how soon after your first attempt to leave did you notice the smoke coming in through the living-room window here yeah about 40 50 minutes afterwards 40

01:12:30 about 40 50 minutes afterwards 40 minutes okay can I then look please at AR nine which is I WS eight nine to page 19 and again I think you say now that

01:12:47 19 and again I think you say now that you took this around about 2:30 in your third state yes slightly after the previous picture right I see and is it

01:12:59 previous picture right I see and is it also of your living room it is indeed yes from which angle direction is it taken do you know it is from the kitchen behind the breakfast

01:13:11 from the kitchen behind the breakfast table which I was talking earlier on about can we see the breakfast table it is yes it is yeah you can see also there is a spoon yes in there so that is the

01:13:22 is a spoon yes in there so that is the breakfast table right and you described the smoke in paragraph 70 of your statement if we just go to that you

01:13:33 statement if we just go to that you describe the smoke there as thick and gray thick gray smoke and besides the color and the density was it different in any other way from the smoke that

01:13:44 in any other way from the smoke that you'd seen on the in the lobby when you open the door yes definitely different much lighter and you could somehow if I may so you can still breathe yes even

01:13:55 may so you can still breathe yes even though I used to put a towel or wet napkin on my face but it was totally different than this then the smoke in the hallway did you have a did it have a

01:14:06 the hallway did you have a did it have a smell or a taste this gray smoke yes very how can I put it very smoky very horrible as well mmm did it taste or smell different from the smoke that

01:14:18 or smell different from the smoke that you'd encountered on them in the lobby yes the one in the lobby was like a gas something that would you know you go into a gas chamber and that would kill

01:14:29 into a gas chamber and that would kill you

01:14:29 you shortly after this one was somehow I'm again breathable but still horrible could you just could you describe the smell or the taste of this smoke when

01:14:44 smell or the taste of this smoke when you learn a lot of let's say a lot of rubbish and the smell is awful but the one in the hallway would be like in the

01:14:58 one in the hallway would be like in the in the in the landings would be like if you burn something chemicals like some other knowledge expunges or something that is like a rubber or like a tire you

01:15:10 that is like a rubber or like a tire you know if you know strong smell and black while the one in the living room was more like a rubbish like now on page 12

01:15:27 more like a rubbish like now on page 12 of your statement we just go back to your first statement you say in paragraphs 72 my eyes were burning from the smoke I went and I wet a fabric

01:15:39 the smoke I went and I wet a fabric napkin I put it over my nose and mouth and went into my bedroom to breathe in some fresh air from the window is that smoke that you're referring to they're the same smokers we've seen coming

01:15:50 the same smokers we've seen coming through the window and yes perhaps with one yes okay apart from burning your eyes did it have any other physical

01:16:01 eyes did it have any other physical effect on you no it was totally uncomfortable or unpleasant to breathe that's why I would have this wet towel

01:16:12 that's why I would have this wet towel on my mouth and that's why I would go to my living room and get some fresh air from the window and also I knew that you know breathing that stuff would not be

01:16:23 know breathing that stuff would not be good for you so I tried to protect myself as much as I could was the effect of the thick gray smoke that we've just been looking at coming through your window does the effect on you different

01:16:35 window does the effect on you different from the effect of the black smoke that you didn't did when you opened your door to the lobby yes as I said the the black smoke was like very hot very very hot and very

01:16:47 was like very hot very very hot and very powerful

01:16:49 powerful this one was still very bad but not as bad is it what totally different yeah it was really was the effect on you physically we did have a different effect as well you see the the one at

01:17:01 effect as well you see the the one at the door when I first breathe in the first time it was very for a very very short time a few seconds basically if I had had that black smoke in my living

01:17:14 had had that black smoke in my living room perhaps I would have run for my life now the paragraph 74 you say after

01:17:26 life now the paragraph 74 you say after this both smoke detectors in my flat started beeping loudly I tried to cool them down with a Fanning but with a Fanning them with a dry cloth but they soon went off again and I just wanted to

01:17:38 soon went off again and I just wanted to try to get the timing you say after this and in the previous paragraph paragraph 73 you you see that you say that I took two photographs so those are AR 9 + AR

01:17:49 two photographs so those are AR 9 + AR 10 look today are 9 could we just look at AR 10 it's just a timing point this is 8 9 - page 21 and this is the photograph I think of your hallway is

01:18:02 photograph I think of your hallway is that right yes no I think your first statement you said that this was taken around about 2:40 but now I think you say it was around 4:30 yes so just in terms of the

01:18:20 around 4:30 yes so just in terms of the smoke conditions in the in your flat when do you think the smoke detectors went off what sort of time they went off shortly after they went off in a few

01:18:34 shortly after they went off in a few occasion they went on shortly after the the smoke was pouring in from the windows so about 10:30 yes a few times and I managed to somehow cool it down so

01:18:48 and I managed to somehow cool it down so to stop

01:18:50 to stop making the noise and then they went off again later on in the night when Christopher's room which is that one got

01:19:03 Christopher's room which is that one got filled up with smoke because of the fire that was crawling down on the outside of his window I see yeah come back to that

01:19:14 his window I see yeah come back to that shortly

01:19:15 shortly just on this at this point in the night you go on I think a page set paragraph 75 on page 12 of your first statement we can just get back to that to say I then went into my bedroom to devise a plan to

01:19:27 went into my bedroom to devise a plan to try and get rid of the smoke from my flat I opened my bedroom window on the south side and the kitchen window on the east side of the tower whilst shutting Christopher's bedroom the bathroom and toilet doors to create a draft

01:19:39 toilet doors to create a draft thankfully this gradually cleared the smoke can I please look at the third photograph with you that I wanted to show you which is a R 13 that's I WS 9

01:19:52 show you which is a R 13 that's I WS 9 to 4

01:20:17 now I think your third statement it explains that this photograph was taken between 2:30 and 3:00 a.m. and I just wanted to see if that was really right

01:20:30 perhaps slightly later than that perhaps looking at it now because it is dawn is breaking out sides basically but yeah I

01:20:41 breaking out sides basically but yeah I don't recall exactly the time I mean like can we see any smoke in that picture no no no do you know why we can't because that page in there there

01:20:57 can't because that page in there there was only a light you see this is the south side so the fire had not come to that site yet and he was quite early in

01:21:09 that site yet and he was quite early in the night yes now getting back to your statement of paragraph 76 you say according to my phone records and around

01:21:21 according to my phone records and around 2:40 a.m. I called the night manager at the hotel where I work I told him that I was not able to come to work because there was a fire and I was trapped in my flat

01:21:28 flat he told me not to worry about work and to get the hell out of there quite some quotes and you give a time for that call at 2:40 that means that about an hour had passed between Christopher's call to

01:21:41 had passed between Christopher's call to you which will ease up and this call it is that's right is it yes yes that's your recollection yes I did this because I realized that it was very serious and

01:21:54 I realized that it was very serious and obviously I could not go to work the day after so that's why I yes and before you made that call had you made any other attempt to leave the flat that stage

01:22:08 attempt to leave the flat that stage only one obtained right now the next moving ahead the next time marker we have aside from your timing of photographs is a call with the LF B and

01:22:19 photographs is a call with the LF B and a specifically control room officer Pam Jones and we have that at 4:40 9:00 a.m. from a look at that in a little bit of detail at in a moment but

01:22:30 detail at in a moment but we do that for 49 in the time that passed between the country or night manager 240 and your contact with the lfb at 449 what would the condition is

01:22:42 lfb at 449 what would the condition is to our spread what were the conditions like in general terms in your flat it was very smoky at around yeah 2:30 the

01:22:57 was very smoky at around yeah 2:30 the time I took the picture and the time I took the photo also from the kitchen showing the living room full of smoke so sort of repeat the question as a general

01:23:08 sort of repeat the question as a general question

01:23:09 question yeah the condition what were the conditions like during that two hour yeah yeah so basically it yeah it was smoky but I managed somehow to to get rid of the smoke by putting all wet towels and and bed sheets and stuff that

01:23:23 towels and and bed sheets and stuff that I had around all the window wages independently if they were smoking or not smoke or not coming in from the window so basically I put towels everywhere wet and then by by opening

01:23:37 everywhere wet and then by by opening the window in the kitchen and in the bedroom I was busy getting rid of the smoke right did that work and that you know basically that kept me busy for a

01:23:51 know basically that kept me busy for a while did the amount of smoke coming through the window the window frame as you refer to it early did it did them the amount increase during the night no

01:24:02 the amount increase during the night no because I - because I put the towels I put towels all over it so that worked it worked

01:24:09 it worked yeah thank god it worked yeah okay now the next photograph I think that you're able to time in your third statement your most recent is one that I think you believe was taken from your bedroom

01:24:21 believe was taken from your bedroom window at about 4:30 a.m. and we can look at that that's a r11

01:24:32 and you corrected the time for this to about 4:30 at this time let's just wait till it comes up on the screen this is 8

01:24:43 till it comes up on the screen this is 8 9 to page 23 at about this time and you can see it's beginning to get light was there any smoke still coming into your

01:24:55 there any smoke still coming into your bedroom no no not my bedroom not your bedroom did any smoke ever come into your bedroom not really my bedroom now Christopher's

01:25:06 not really my bedroom now Christopher's bedroom yes but not mine perhaps very very very light right now right we know you made a second attempt to leave the flat do you think you took this photograph before that or after that

01:25:19 I've made the second attempt to leave the throttle on 4:30 for something so it was about more or less the same time

01:25:39 perhaps before a motor sister photograph of man what is this photograph of this

01:25:51 of man what is this photograph of this photo is from the window from my bedroom the tower above me is burning so

01:26:03 the tower above me is burning so basically the fire started on the east west side correct so it went all the way to the south side as well on the top

01:26:15 to the south side as well on the top levels and then the fire started to come down as well so basically this is the reflection of the fire the tower burning the flats above me well above me maybe

01:26:27 the flats above me well above me maybe yes but the fire was coming down obviously and and this is the reflection on to those two that building which is part of the estate they call it the

01:26:39 part of the estate they call it the fingers yeah and you see those windows at the top are open at an angle and that's where the reflection is coming from so we can see the yellow flames reflected yes from from above the tower

01:26:51 reflected yes from from above the tower in the vents at the top of these yes dormer wind blows dormer window yes yes I see so and that was to me a pretty signal that yes

01:27:02 signal that yes fire is coming this way as well yes thank you now we got to see another photograph in a moment which we looked

01:27:17 photograph in a moment which we looked at I think a moment ago which is a our 10 page eight nine its I WS 892 page 21 and that you said earlier that and you say in your statement that this was

01:27:28 say in your statement that this was taken in the hallway into Christopher's bedroom is that is that correct correct

01:27:37 now you now I think say that this taken was taken at about 4:30 or 4:40 before the call with control room officer Jones at 449 yes and you say in your first

01:27:54 at 449 yes and you say in your first statement you know it's paragraph 84 that let's just go back to that when I next checked Christopher's room I saw

01:28:06 next checked Christopher's room I saw the entire room was full of thick of white thick smoke his window was closed but smoke was pouring in this all happened very quickly I also saw flames crawling down the left

01:28:17 I also saw flames crawling down the left side of Christopher's bedroom window this was very scary now I just want to try to get a time on that and when you checked Christopher's room and saw what

01:28:28 checked Christopher's room and saw what you've described there was that at the same time as or before or after you took the photograph and that we've just looked at 890 page 21 I think I've taken the photograph the

01:28:41 I think I've taken the photograph the one with the reflection on there no no page 21 over the hallway photograph that photograph there so let me put the

01:28:52 photograph there so let me put the question again when you checked Christopher's room and saw the whole room full of white smoke and flames come as DSS was that before or after or the

01:29:03 as DSS was that before or after or the same time as you took this photograph I've seen the fire crawling down and the room quickly filled up with smoke and

01:29:14 room quickly filled up with smoke and then I took the picture thank you that's very that's very clear now going back to your statement you said when I next checked Christopher's room had you

01:29:25 checked Christopher's room had you checked Christopher's room before that only occasionally okay now you described white thick smoke do you know where or did you could you

01:29:38 do you know where or did you could you see where the smoke was coming in from from the window right from the window it all happened so quickly that I could not figure out is it from that point that

01:29:50 figure out is it from that point that you know it went so quickly it came in so quickly was there a lot of smoke coming yes you see you can't say was it in the bottom

01:30:02 see you can't say was it in the bottom of the window or the top of the window all the sides I think you're able to tell us I can tell but it just came in no you say in your statement I also saw flames crawling down the left

01:30:16 I also saw flames crawling down the left side of Christopher's bedroom window this was very scary do you remember whether the flames that you saw crawling down were inside the flat all still outs outside that's clearly burning the cladding outside how

01:30:30 clearly burning the cladding outside how close to the left side of the window frame were the flames you saw well basically have the window and right after you have basically the column or

01:30:43 after you have basically the column or the pillar house you call them and that part of the cladding it was like burning and you could I could see the flames you know like coming down so scary

01:30:58 know like coming down so scary yes and you then I think I want to say that you in the next paragraph you say suddenly water from outside started

01:31:09 suddenly water from outside started pouring into mine and Christopher's bedroom putting out the fire do you know where how the water got into Christopher's bedroom how what how did

01:31:20 Christopher's bedroom how what how did how the water got into Christopher's bedroom yes the water came through the little vent at the top of the window and yeah from in his bedroom and my bedroom

01:31:32 yeah from in his bedroom and my bedroom only because the pressure of the water was quite strong and obviously there were Amina a at the fire but a lot of water came through

01:31:47 fire but a lot of water came through that little which is a tiny cup like this a lot of water came through a lot did it have any effect on the fire that you'd see in crawling down on the left side well no could see that the fire

01:31:58 side well no could see that the fire went off immediately so and then slowly they the smoke disappeared as well right just say we're absolutely clear can I ask you to look at your plan of your flat again your

01:32:10 at your plan of your flat again your plan of your feet which is a r18 92 page - just - we've got though the windows completely clear where you say that the water came in we can see I'm going to

01:32:23 water came in we can see I'm going to try to guess but the window is marked six and seven yes that's where the water came in yes and Christopher's windows is six yes if you see Christopher's window

01:32:36 six yes if you see Christopher's window six on I mean looking at it now on the right-hand side this little dark yes spot that's where the fire it's crawling

01:32:49 spot that's where the fire it's crawling that's that's that's very interesting because you just just explained say when you saw the fire crawling down how'd you just describe where on the diagram please do

01:33:12 - basically the place where that so basically I could see inside okay could

01:33:25 basically I could see inside okay could you see whether the joints were burning or was it the face of the clapping in

01:33:39 or was it the face of the clapping in the channel or on the face on the outside and you got a good look at it to

01:33:53 outside and you got a good look at it to do yes yes okay and do you think do you think this incident you're describing

01:34:05 think this incident you're describing the flames coming down yet that happened before you try to leave the flat for the second time I try to leave the flat B

01:34:21 second time I try to leave the flat B before yes but from the second time yes okay yes that's before you saw the flames crawling in the window yes yes yes yes yes I did yeah because when I saw the flames that was the

01:34:34 when I saw the flames that was the warning that okay I have to in a way step up a gear so I want to make more awareness towards nine nine nine or towards the fire officer that fire is

01:34:45 towards the fire officer that fire is coming at me so what am i standing now I follow save just so we're clear so the all is this right correct me if this isn't right that the order was you tried to leave second time

01:34:56 order was you tried to leave second time couldn't then you saw the flames on the outside and then you rang 909 yes and then I had I don't know if I drank yeah I ran in a couple of occasion but yes that was the time when you know I

01:35:08 that was the time when you know I realized okay something more has to be done now because the fire is coming even though the fire brigade firefighters they put off the fire and they put a lot of water but

01:35:19 of water but yes I was you know sure okay let's just go and have a look in detail about what you say about your second attempt to leave leave your flat this you cover a paragraph 78 of yours of your first

01:35:30 paragraph 78 of yours of your first statement and you say around four am I this is 78 around 4:00 a.m. I tried to leave the flat again I put on my rucksack and had a wet towel to cover my

01:35:41 rucksack and had a wet towel to cover my nose and mouth I also I open the front door and the very same black thick hot smoke engulfed me I immediately shut the door again this time I could hit hit also hear screaming and banging from the

01:35:53 also hear screaming and banging from the stairwell now you say there it was around 4:00 a.m. I think in your third

01:36:04 around 4:00 a.m. I think in your third statement you say that you made that attempt just before the call with cro jones at four forty fifty is that right I don't remember I mean go everything

01:36:17 I don't remember I mean go everything was happening so quickly okay and when you made that second attempt you say I immediately shut the door again with the

01:36:28 immediately shut the door again with the conditions in the lobby that you could see when you open the door different from the first time all all the same exactly the same right what prompted you

01:36:39 exactly the same right what prompted you to make that attempt to see if I you know could hurt myself to see if I could get out of there to see if I can you know yes basically

01:36:52 to see if I can you know yes basically maybe now it is a bit better maybe somehow the fire has been I don't know less or I tried sure did the flat front

01:37:06 less or I tried sure did the flat front door still continue to protect and keep the smoke out yes when you did open the front door I know it was very brief did you get any sense of the temperature in

01:37:17 you get any sense of the temperature in the lobby again very hot just like I said the first one the only difference were the the noises that I heard coming from outside from from and and some screaming as well so that's

01:37:31 and and some screaming as well so that's why I got more did you what did you think when you heard the screaming and the banging in the in the stairwell I was thinking that someone is not well at

01:37:47 was thinking that someone is not well at all in there so something is going on and this and I was thinking even if you want to try and you don't see you you not be able to breathe again so you

01:38:00 not be able to breathe again so you might find someone and you might find some obstruction on the way down maybe you trip over and maybe you can fall down so and then I was thinking I'm sure

01:38:15 down so and then I was thinking I'm sure that firefighters are trying to fight the fires and rescue people and yeah then spares are very narrow as well so

01:38:27 then spares are very narrow as well so and again I was continually continuously thinking that I will not be able to breathe properly and therefore is very risky and and and that's why you know in

01:38:41 risky and and and that's why you know in our statehood right now we know from your statement that you spoke to Christopher your son a number of times during the course of of that night at

01:38:53 during the course of of that night at any stage did he pass on do you remember whether he passed on to you any information about what you were supposed to do in response to the fire and smoke no he was just trying to find

01:39:07 and smoke no he was just trying to find out how I was how was coping if there was smoke if there was fire if you know the state of my being there and obviously I could feel that he was very

01:39:18 obviously I could feel that he was very worried it was very stressed it was extremely worried yes I repeat again and at one stage I remember in saying that he had to be strong and he

01:39:30 saying that he had to be strong and he had to be focused because I would I would need him outside there to be there for me so

01:39:38 for me so and did he tell you about the progress of the fire or what he could see do you remember possibly by not a member okay now in your third statement you don't

01:39:51 now in your third statement you don't summarize it you you say that you remember speaking to your sister-in-law shortly before you had a call with the 999 control room and then you got called

01:40:04 999 control room and then you got called up by the control room and I've summarized it but is that is that yes yes yes now we can look at the transcript of that call it's inq 372

01:40:17 timed it just get it up on the screen time 204 49:59 and at page 2 it starts

01:40:37 automated speaker and then caller hello than operator hello it's the fire brigade control room here I just spoke to your sister-in-law so she is it right she rang you on your on your mobile is

01:40:49 she rang you on your on your mobile is that is that my sister-in-law no the control room operator yes yes yes yes right and she says you say yes and operator she said you're still in the flat question yes I am okay I've let the

01:41:01 flat question yes I am okay I've let the firefighters know who are there and then it continues and you describe the conditions and then what I wanted to look at is page 3 of this transcript

01:41:13 look at is page 3 of this transcript they're quarter of the way down the page you say the fire alarm stopped as well so I've got a little bit of oxygen coming through a window you know where it's safe so I'm safely you know what I mean I don't a risk anything go outside

01:41:24 mean I don't a risk anything go outside and try to do something heroic when you refer to the fire alarm stopped what what are you referring to there yes yes

01:41:35 what are you referring to there yes yes the smoke detectors you smoked it at what in your flat you might flood yes ooh okay

01:41:42 and then a little bit lower down the page halfway you say there's well she's asked you the question she asks you the question say there's no smoke or anything coming in where you are and you

01:41:53 anything coming in where you are and you say there is no there is smoke plenty of smoke yeah but I'm okay because the window a little bit open you know I open and close the window a little bit to get some oxygen when you refer to plenty of

01:42:05 some oxygen when you refer to plenty of smoke what smoke were you referring to I think I was referring to the smoke that came through what time was this phone

01:42:18 came through what time was this phone call me for 49 so just before 10:00 to 5:00 this was referred to the smoke that came through Christopher's room because of the fire okay and in this occasion

01:42:29 of the fire okay and in this occasion also from what I see here the smoke detector went off yes and then you go on to say just a little bit below that

01:42:40 to say just a little bit below that there is no fire there's no fire surrounding my floor if you know what I mean

01:42:44 mean there was fire before but now they put it off what what's that a reference to it was referring to the fire on the

01:42:56 it was referring to the fire on the outside of Christopher's room that you described before yes thank you okay and then you go on at page 5 of this transcript so I'm so sorry page 4 of

01:43:07 transcript so I'm so sorry page 4 of this transcript is actually actually a place to pick something up with you you say at the top yeah yeah the fire I can see now where it was right okay next to

01:43:19 see now where it was right okay next to my flat was that a reference to the outside and told us about this oh yes because that was the only fire I've ever seen that night oh yes I see and then you say and I just underneath that you

01:43:31 you say and I just underneath that you say and I just checked I just tried to go out with a cloth in my mouth to see if I could go but it's too dark outside is too dangerous well he said I just checked did what it

01:43:42 well he said I just checked did what it was refer to the attempt I did to go out right for the second time yeah the second and last time this right so looking at what you say I just

01:43:53 so looking at what you say I just checked does that help you how long before this call you made that second attempt not a member okay and then in the on the next page page five

01:44:12 then in the on the next page page five in that page a third of the way down you say that you don't want to put anybody life at risk to come to the tenth floor by you know walking because the

01:44:24 by you know walking because the stairwell is totally pitch-black and smoky when you say the stairwell is totally pitch-black and smoky could have you actually seen the stairwell but no I was assuming that because there was so

01:44:36 was assuming that because there was so much smoke in the landings I was assuming that the whole of stairwell landings and the surrounding areas would be smoke locked basically and that's why

01:44:51 be smoke locked basically and that's why I said that but obviously I did not see the smoke or if there wasn't a smoke in the in the in the stairs like no lower

01:45:02 the in the in the stairs like no lower down the page page five two-thirds of the way down you say you know I think if the floor there's no fire around me I'm going to be safe here in the flat what

01:45:13 going to be safe here in the flat what made you feel safe the fact that important was that the door was holding the smoke out basically the main door

01:45:24 the smoke out basically the main door there was no smoke coming in that was a positive thing that the fire on the outside of Christopher's room was put off and by

01:45:37 Christopher's room was put off and by the amount of water that was put sprayed into that part of the wall of the building including my bedroom that was not that was no fire in there so made me

01:45:50 not that was no fire in there so made me feel okay I'm sure that and also seeing that the firefighters outside the building

01:46:01 building at the level of my floor basically were spraying water continuously so basically okay these guys will stop the fire from coming down and that's what made me say okay I'm safe here well I'm at least I'm

01:46:14 okay I'm safe here well I'm at least I'm okay at the moment because at least on this side there is no fire coming down if the control room operator had said to you on this corner we see she didn't but if she had said to you on this call you

01:46:25 if she had said to you on this call you must get out of your flat what would you have done you think well I would have

01:46:36 have done you think well I would have assessed again if I was in the condition to go out but obviously she would have taken a big responsibility to do so I don't have behalf because she doesn't

01:46:47 don't have behalf because she doesn't know she would know how bad the conditions outside where I knew she didn't she would know

01:47:00 now we know at the end of the call if you just look at it she says to you and

01:47:14 you just look at it she says to you and it's the same page actually just below where we've been looking if you don't get or hear anyone you call back okay see that it's a foot of page five you

01:47:26 see that it's a foot of page five you see that she says okay well I've let them know where you are if you don't get or hear anyone you call back okay and you say okay okay all right okay final

01:47:39 you say okay okay all right okay final right and she says goodbye um we know you did call the LF be back at 505 45 and we can look at that that's inq 4:30

01:47:51 and we can look at that that's inq 4:30 we can just please look back all and

01:48:04 from the first page we can see when we get to it inq forth sorry I'm so sorry LF be my fault LF B 4:30

01:48:21 we could see in the top right hand corner of that that it's time today 505 45 and on page 2 at the top you say oh hi my name is Antonia I'm calling from

01:48:32 hi my name is Antonia I'm calling from Grenville tower 72 a ground-floor Tower right you know there's a big fire going on there at the moment right yes and the conversation then starts you say it 2/3

01:48:47 conversation then starts you say it 2/3 of the way down I'm not in any sort of danger I'm not in any sort of danger there's a lot of smoke around but I'm not in danger and then you go on to say I've been told I should try to from downstairs from downstairs they told

01:48:59 downstairs from downstairs they told tried to come down try to come down it's impossible I tried to open the door a little bit but there is so much smoke if I go out I die so basically I just want to speak to your fire brigade men downstairs somebody in charge that can

01:49:10 downstairs somebody in charge that can advise me what to do now just in that couldn't you save I I've been told I should try to from downstairs they told try to come down what are you just describing there did

01:49:23 what are you just describing there did somebody tell you to come down

01:49:47 I think in a previous conversation with someone but not a call home but perhaps

01:49:58 someone but not a call home but perhaps there was an attempt to say you know get what you can and try to make your way down but I don't recall exactly no no

01:50:09 down but I don't recall exactly no no did you have do you remember having around this time a conversation with a fire officer and then left the officer about about coming out of the flat I don't recall it must be all in one

01:50:27 I don't recall it must be all in one statement somewhere but all the conversations that have had but I don't recall a clear message or you have to go out now or anything like that

01:50:43 and you go on to say I want to speak to your fire brigade men downstairs somebody in charge that can advise me what to do why did you why did you want to speak to

01:50:54 why did you why did you want to speak to somebody because stage because a person an official in charge downstairs or someone that this in the place would know and assess better than a person on

01:51:08 know and assess better than a person on the other find on the other side of the phone may be my eyes away yes so to me was the time where okay you know I cannot be here forever so you know I've

01:51:20 cannot be here forever so you know I've been told to stay put at the end of the day so meaning you committing someone to come and help me out so and that's what was waiting for now we know that you got

01:51:37 was waiting for now we know that you got evacuated and we can see from the detail in your statement from paragraph 89 onwards you describe that in some detail

01:51:51 can I just pick up one or two things about the detail you've given us they're very helpfully a paragraph 91 you say we quickly left

01:52:05 a paragraph 91 you say we quickly left the flat and headed to the stairwell as soon as we were on the landing and in the stairwell the temperature changed and it was very hot just to clarify when you say landing just outside that's the

01:52:18 you say landing just outside that's the my flat visit that that was your Lobby okay

01:52:21 okay you said the temperature changed and it was very hot is that a change from the temperature in your flat yes right when you say it was very hot was it hotter than when you'd first experienced it when you first opened the front door

01:52:33 when you first opened the front door well when I first experienced it it was only for a few seconds into my face and all this place on but when we left I felt even though I was properly dressed

01:52:45 felt even though I was properly dressed that I felt that you know there was like a heat wave coming at me right through my body right through my clothes place basically and that's how I felt so that

01:52:56 basically and that's how I felt so that it was very very hot then you described how you left the flat in that paragraph

01:53:07 how you left the flat in that paragraph do you remember whether the stair door the door between the lobby and the stairwell was open or closed I don't remember because I was totally

01:53:22 I don't remember because I was totally blind I had that big towel over my head and I was just following the firefighter in front of me holding on him on him from the back and basically I was just

01:53:34 from the back and basically I was just guided if the door if someone if he had opened the door to go out or if the door was open I don't know you didn't hear it no I just you know I was just

01:53:48 no I just you know I was just concentrating in following what they told me to do

01:53:53 when you got into the stairwell do you recall weather or do you recall what the temperature was like there well the moment I left the flag together

01:54:05 well the moment I left the flag together with the firefighters obviously you have this sudden impact of heat coming at you and then and then somehow your body I

01:54:16 and then and then somehow your body I mean you get used soon straightaway and then so basically to me the temperature the temperature didn't change didn't feel any change also because actually to

01:54:27 feel any change also because actually to be honest it cooled down a bit because the moment we went into this into the stairs it was very wet lots of rubbish

01:54:38 stairs it was very wet lots of rubbish on the floor and water pouring down from above so basically that made obviously the temperature lower and yeah it was wet totally pouring down with water

01:54:50 wet totally pouring down with water pouring down from above did you get it Anna you were covered with a wet towel but did you get any sense of how thick the smoke in the stairwell was once you got into the stairwell no no also because I had a

01:55:03 stairwell no no also because I had a towel in my mouth and nose

01:55:16 me

01:55:34 mr. Alcala say that that brings me to the end of my questions for the moment so I'm extremely grateful to you but I get to ask the Chairman to rise for a few minutes just to make sure that there aren't other questions which my team

01:55:45 aren't other questions which my team want me to ask which I want to ask for which others in the room might want me to ask so if that's not inconvenient to You mr. chairman may we have to take ten minutes since but it does sometimes happen that

01:55:57 but it does sometimes happen that further questions can't alight so we'll have like two minutes if I could press well let's say ten past twelve yeah that's just over ten minutes and then we'll see whether there are some more questions for you again I have to ask

01:56:09 questions for you again I have to ask you not to talk about your evidence when you're out of the room right if you like yeah sure

01:56:24 right 10 pastels

02:07:51 few more questions mr. Maness one or two mr. chairman yes

02:08:10 I think there just a few more questions to unclutter mr. Alcala say thank you for coming back to this nation there are just a few more first you mentioned your your beautiful view and I just wanted to

02:08:21 your beautiful view and I just wanted to make sure we could understand what that was and from which direction you had it could the witness please be shown I WS 892 at page 7 which is AR 3 to your

02:08:34 892 at page 7 which is AR 3 to your first witness statement there it is is that is that the view from your flat yes it looks towards the city does it yes he does so just tell us which window in your flat is that picture taken this

02:08:46 in your flat is that picture taken this is from the kitchen window now and we can see the ledger Center on the right and the Academy on the left is that

02:08:58 and the Academy on the left is that right yes yes thank you can I please ask you to look at paragraph 51 of your statement the first statement and you say there on Tuesday

02:09:12 statement and you say there on Tuesday the 13th of June 2017 I arrived home after a week in Italy at around 8 p.m. and you say it was a beautiful summer's evening

02:09:21 evening I noticed nothing unusual eventful tower there were no issues with the lifts lighting or electricity can I ask you do you remember what the temperature was like in the lobby when you came in that

02:09:36 like in the lobby when you came in that evening yes on that evening hmm may be doing around 20 degrees 22 something like that did was it different it was the temperature different no

02:09:47 it was the temperature different no normally experience no it would be like any other day during that summer did you notice any blowing or air or ventilation in operation at that time no nothing unusual than any other day moving on to

02:10:03 unusual than any other day moving on to a different point I just wanted to see if I can get slightly better clarity on timing of your first attempt to leave thinking about it again do you think

02:10:15 thinking about it again do you think your first attempt to leave was before or after you received his photograph I think he was before but

02:10:31 his photograph I think he was before but not on the person schewe yes say what prompted you to just asking the question I asked earlier just again what prompted you to make that first attempt because I

02:10:44 you to make that first attempt because I would see the thick smoke outside okay it means there's something big going on I didn't know the intensity and the severity of the smoke obviously and then

02:10:56 severity of the smoke obviously and then also because a lot of people were gathering downstairs as I opened the window in the kitchen specially so I would see low two people and they said okay you know you have to try at least

02:11:08 okay you know you have to try at least so that's why you know I put my stuff together and I got ready and try it so just being do they do the best you can

02:11:19 just being do they do the best you can with what I know it's difficult recollection duped does that mean this is right that you got the photograph from Christopher of the exterior of the tower offer after that yes yes yes yes

02:11:30 tower offer after that yes yes yes yes okay because I I the moment I saw the picture I realized how severe the problem was yes thank you um moving on

02:11:42 problem was yes thank you um moving on to a separate question a different point can I ask you please to go back to your second 999 call which is lfb 430 this is the one at a 500 545 and can I please

02:11:58 the one at a 500 545 and can I please ask you to go to page 3 in that transcript you say two-thirds of the way down no I cannot go out if I go out believe me I'm going to be on somebody

02:12:09 believe me I'm going to be on somebody else's conscious it's totally you know my eyes started crying inaudible and it's impossible to breathe when he said it's going to be on someone somebody else is conscious what did you mean I

02:12:22 meant that if that person on the other side of the line would tell me you you must get out you have to you know try Oh you know I tried already

02:12:35 you know try Oh you know I tried already so I knew now let's say I would be convinced by this person to go out and if something had happened to me how would that person feel if I had not made

02:12:49 would that person feel if I had not made it out basically so that's why I said you know I don't want to you know to think of someone you know thinking oh because I gave him that advice and what

02:13:01 because I gave him that advice and what happened to him how would that person then live for the rest of their life yes thank you and just a couple more questions first of all the paragraph 8

02:13:14 questions first of all the paragraph 8 of your statement your first statement if I could just ask you to go back to that please

02:13:23 I just want to see if this is actually correct when you say the tenancy agreement was subsequently amended with the TMO who ran the building at the time

02:13:35 the TMO who ran the building at the time of the fire and do you know whether your landlord changed to become the TMA when well when you refer to the tenancy

02:13:46 well when you refer to the tenancy agreement being amended with the TMO do you mean that was your aunt was it your understanding that the TMA became your landlord or was it your understanding that our bkc remained your landlord well

02:14:02 that our bkc remained your landlord well from my understanding is that the council would be let's say the owner and that the chimo would run or manage it on behalf of the council so that was my

02:14:14 behalf of the council so that was my understanding right and therefore they would have full power and responsibility to manage the estate the best way which to my many

02:14:27 estate the best way which to my many other people opinion did not yeah that's a different matter altogether okay now can I ask you then finally to go to page

02:14:39 can I ask you then finally to go to page seven of your statement paragraph 41 first statement and you described the boilers and the change of location there

02:14:50 boilers and the change of location there in that statement and you say two-thirds of the way down some residents accepted the revised plans but there were others including myself who were not happy the

02:15:02 including myself who were not happy the new boiler was not attractive and blocked the hallway we also had health and safety concerns with it being located above the electricity meter we formed a residence compact I started to encourage other residents to voice their

02:15:13 encourage other residents to voice their concerns about this work we also involved our local MP just a couple of very short questions about this compact first of all do you know would you remember when it was formed when yes

02:15:28 at the big I don't know exactly the year now because but at the beginning of the refurbishment right and do you remember who was in it or who let it it was at

02:15:40 who was in it or who let it it was at Daffin that I knew from before but not so well basically through his immense work of getting to people trying to get

02:15:53 work of getting to people trying to get people aware of what was going on and then there was another gentleman called David Collins that used to be lets say the chair together with Edward and and

02:16:06 the chair together with Edward and and that's that's when I got involved as well right was it solely related to the boilers or were there other matters as well there were other matters as well but the

02:16:18 were other matters as well but the boiler was one of the biggest one okay do you know whether some residents were unhappy had concerns but didn't want to join the compact if I may so say so many

02:16:30 join the compact if I may so say so many residents they would because of the language because of the time because of the not to have the hassle to have

02:16:44 the not to have the hassle to have workers at home for so long to do the boiler in the original place like in the new to the kitchen they would accept the option that Riedel was offering them so

02:16:56 option that Riedel was offering them so basically it was a combination of things but to many many many of us it was a big factor that okay well we have many

02:17:09 factor that okay well we have many questions around that but not finale yeah

02:17:11 yeah but I just wanted to know those basic questions

02:17:18 thank you very much now we are all aware that you left the tower at approximately oh six oh five after many hours in your flat I want to say thank you very much to you for your assistance today it's

02:17:30 to you for your assistance today it's been invaluable to the inquiry you've given us a lot of interesting evidence which I hope you find very useful before we conclude I'd like to invite you to

02:17:41 we conclude I'd like to invite you to tell the chairman whether there is anything further over and above what's in your statements over and above what you've told us today but you think that the Chairman should know about about the

02:17:54 the Chairman should know about about the events of that night well about the event of that night we have spoken and we have heard so many things and many testimonies from firefighters from residents and so on if I may say

02:18:06 residents and so on if I may say something is because we were living in a big Tower high-rise building council state social plants and what my

02:18:18 state social plants and what my suggestion is that residents living in these conditions which are you know conditions should not accept things imposed by local authorities from above

02:18:33 imposed by local authorities from above but should be part of any decision-making in the sense that if you have to do a work or innovation or refurbishment which is welcome so and

02:18:44 refurbishment which is welcome so and you do it in our homes in our houses so we should be part of that committee or decision-making committee and we have to be happy as well because after all we

02:18:58 be happy as well because after all we are paying our dues and it is our lives that you know could be at risk like it happened with Colonel so and therefore

02:19:09 happened with Colonel so and therefore the reason I'm saying this is because obviously we do not know absolutely never ever again anything like this to happen to no one mr. Alcala say thank

02:19:20 happen to no one mr. Alcala say thank you very much for coming and giving us your evidence thank you thank you mr. blood I'd add my thanks your evidence is really helpful because it's only through people like you were inside the tower that we can start

02:19:32 were inside the tower that we can start to understand how the conditions were and how they developed and if I may say so you've given your evidence and very clear and careful way rather reflecting the calm way that you approach the

02:19:43 the calm way that you approach the terrible circumstances that you faced and I'm sure your family who were here very proud of you and quite right in thank you very much for coming to give you a welcome thank you I'd like to go

02:19:56 you a welcome thank you I'd like to go to the ocean thank you very much

02:20:09 yes mr. moot well our next live witness is scheduled to come this afternoon yeah that's Fatima Albers mrs. Alves and so we'll start her at two o'clock but

02:20:21 so we'll start her at two o'clock but before we do that may I read into the record a statement from mr. uncle Otto's son Christopher yes thank you I should

02:20:32 son Christopher yes thank you I should just say that after we've finished with mrs. Alvarez evidence this afternoon there will be quite a lot of reading into the record so I'll try not a some time for that right and I'm going to say something brief about disclosure of

02:20:44 something brief about disclosure of documents as well so we do have a full day's work even there may be a slightly longer yes thank you and Christopher Branca LOTOS statement is iws eight four

02:20:56 Branca LOTOS statement is iws eight four zero and I would now formally put that into the record there are three exhibits to it iws eight three six eight three seven and eight three eight eight three

02:21:08 seven and eight three eight eight three six as a floor plan for floor ten and eight three seven and eight our photographs taken while outside the tower

02:21:16 tower Christopher was is the son of Antonia and also a resident of flat 72 on floor ten he was not present at the time of the fire but on his way home when he

02:21:27 the fire but on his way home when he learnt of it and we've heard about the call and various other calls that he made to his father during the course of the night to give some context to the evidence we've heard today mr. chairman

02:21:38 evidence we've heard today mr. chairman it's I think useful briefly to draw attention to some parts of his statement if I may he learnt of his fire learn to build a fire on this all we do we don't need the ashram mediate your doing but

02:21:49 need the ashram mediate your doing but no thank you

02:21:54 we don't if I can if I can quote from paragraph 42 of his statement yes he says I called my dad straight away my

02:22:06 says I called my dad straight away my phone records showed that I made my first call to him at 1:40 234 for approximately four minutes yeah I woke my dad who'd been asleep in the flat and was not aware of the fire his smoke

02:22:17 was not aware of the fire his smoke detectors had not gone off yet I was effectively his fire alarm and then to paragraph 59 he says when I was speaking to my dad on the telephone

02:22:29 speaking to my dad on the telephone after 5:00 a.m. I'll just wait for it to be shown it's paragraph 59 I'll read the next three paragraphs into the record specifically when I was speaking to my dad on the telephone after 5:00 a.m. he

02:22:42 dad on the telephone after 5:00 a.m. he told me to put someone in an official capacity on the phone who could tell him what to do at that moment I was sat in jazz umas car speaking to him now headed back to the tower and kept my dad on the line I managed to work my way round to

02:22:55 line I managed to work my way round to the side of the block where our flat was at the bottom of Grenfell walk I ran through the police cordon and told a police officer that my dad was alive and trapped on the 10th floor he immediately

02:23:06 trapped on the 10th floor he immediately took me to the fire marshal who was in a booth by a fire engine I explained the situation to the fire marshal and the fact that I was on my phone to my dad he spoke to my dad and said that they were

02:23:19 spoke to my dad and said that they were coming for him he said he would organize a team to go and get him now after this the fire marshal handed the phone back and I spoke with my dad briefly I told him that I had a pair of swimming

02:23:30 him that I had a pair of swimming goggles in my bedroom drawer and he should wear them to protect his eyes from the smoke when he left the flat a short while later my mum rang to say dad was out of the building and on his way

02:23:41 was out of the building and on his way to hospital this was such a massive relief say mr. chairman that I think is all I need to read into the record from from Christopher statement years now

02:23:53 from Christopher statement years now there but I'm sure that Christopher will understand the whole of his statement will form part of the evidence and will be taking into account indeed with all the other evidence indeed and specifically the impact of the fire on

02:24:05 specifically the impact of the fire on him yes of course yes mrs. Jenner I'm very grateful might not be a convenient moment to take a rather lengthy and lunch break the me otherwise would yes what time is well I know there's coming

02:24:18 what time is well I know there's coming I would ordinarily ask you to come back earlier than two o'clock but she's expecting to come at two o'clock and I wouldn't want to disturb those expectations no of course not all right well it just slightly I live neutral but it seems sensible to

02:24:30 it seems sensible to right now and have a rather longer than usual lunch break and we resume at 2:00 o'clock and grateful thinking thank you thank you