Evidence from BSRs (4 October 2018)

Full transcript

00:00:00 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing I think in just a moment we're going to hear from another former resident of the tower mr. Miguel Elvis right yes mr. chairman good morning

00:00:11 right yes mr. chairman good morning Korea please may I call mr. Howell bears

00:00:38 I swear by Almighty God I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I should give that david's i shall give shall be the truth should be betrayed very good

00:00:53 the truth should be betrayed very good thank you very much mr. Lewis would you like to sit down make us uncomfortable

00:00:58 yes mr. yes good morning mr. Alvarez can I start by asking you please to give the chairman your full name yeah Manuel Miguel for later holders thank you and is it right that you use Miguel he

00:01:12 and is it right that you use Miguel he has your your first name first I want to thank you very much for coming to the inquiry and helping us with our investigations we really appreciate it man what you've told us so far in your

00:01:23 man what you've told us so far in your statement and what you'll tell us today will be extremely valuable to us I know it must be very difficult to come here and relive the events of the night and we understand that and so if you need a

00:01:36 we understand that and so if you need a break at any time just saying we can take a break it's my duty to come here and to give the evidence and try to tell I mean to you for the truth to come out yes thank you thank you very much and

00:01:48 yes thank you thank you very much and when I'm asking questions it may be that one or two of my questions are hard to understand or don't make any sense say if they don't just say and I can ask the question that in a different way

00:01:59 question that in a different way sure okay it also may be that when I'm when you're answering I may not be looking at you because I'm looking at the screen or my documents if that happens it doesn't mean I'm not

00:02:10 if that happens it doesn't mean I'm not listening to you okay describe just and can I please start by showing you your witness statement you gave to the inquiry which is iws 538 a

00:02:23 gave to the inquiry which is iws 538 a page one

00:02:28 and this is the first page of that statement and it's on the large screen to your left or on the monitor on the desk to your right at any which you you prefer to use it doesn't matter as long

00:02:39 prefer to use it doesn't matter as long as you're comfortable with it and is this the first page of your statement it is yes and the last page of that statement on page nine if we could just have that please there's a signature

00:02:51 have that please there's a signature just above the date of the 27th of April 2018 is that your signature is Messinger and have you had an opportunity to read this statement recently yes and can you please confirm that the contents are

00:03:03 please confirm that the contents are true yes thank you I'm also going to read into the record the exhibits - your statement these are exhibits MMF a1 - MMF a3 which are at I WS 536 pages 1 to

00:03:18 MMF a3 which are at I WS 536 pages 1 to 10 and those exhibits are a plan of your home and flat 105 and a number of photographs that you took on the night now can I start just by setting some

00:03:29 now can I start just by setting some background I think you were here yesterday when your wife Fatima gave evidence to the chairman and so I hope you don't mind if we don't go over the same things with you that we went over with her for example we know that your

00:03:42 with her for example we know that your family home was flat 105 on the 13th floor of Granville Tower and by June 2017 you'd been living there for something like 19 years yes that's right isn't it now can I show you pay

00:03:54 isn't it now can I show you pay paragraph three of your statement which is on page 1 and you say there there's a lot I wish to say about the

00:04:05 lot I wish to say about the refurbishment and the process but understand that this is more appropriate for phase 2 however at this point I would like to say that after the cladding and it was fitted I was able to hear people from the flats above or below me before then we did not hear it

00:04:18 below me before then we did not hear it but after the cladding was fitted noise traveled more easily it seemed there was a gap between the cladding and the wall on this character sound of people and then in the last sentence I read it all it seemed there was a gap between the

00:04:29 it seemed there was a gap between the cladding and the wall and this carried the sound of people for 19 years I had not heard people then once the cladding came it changed it was now possible to him wind running along and a slight whistling sound

00:04:41 whistling sound can I just ask you where was the whistling sound that you could hear coming from I mean it's just just near the window I can I can hear there that's

00:04:53 the window I can I can hear there that's why I can hear that my neighbor's down and up

00:04:57 and up did the wind whistle into the into your flat through the window yes I mean is the the sound that they make me more

00:05:08 the the sound that they make me more aware of that and I can yes did you have a sense air coming through the window frames yeah it's just the very little butts yes very little can I then turn to

00:05:21 butts yes very little can I then turn to the night of the fire if you turn to paragraph seven and eight of your statement which you'll find on page three you set out what happened there and in general terms on the night

00:05:33 there and in general terms on the night of the 13th you and the family had been out with visiting relatives for dinner and you've explained in paragraph seven that you and your wife dropped your relatives back at their hotel at about

00:05:45 relatives back at their hotel at about twenty past midnight and then you came back to Grenville tower now you give the time you got back at about 1:50 ten to

00:05:56 time you got back at about 1:50 ten to one in the morning if you see the third line up from the bottom of paragraph seven and how do you remember that as the time I mean maybe was a few minutes

00:06:07 the time I mean maybe was a few minutes difference than the ten to one but I she have a comment that is another night that she's not going to bed before one o'clock that's that's the reason that I

00:06:20 o'clock that's that's the reason that I remember that is right and in paragraph nine just looking a little bit lower down the page you say the lift stopped on the fourth floor when the doors

00:06:31 on the fourth floor when the doors opened to the lobby area as the doors opened I noticed a very light layer of smoke it was a very slight thin white layer and hardly noticeable the smoke was up towards the ceiling on seeing it

00:06:43 was up towards the ceiling on seeing it my first reaction was to come out of the lift I realized it was a fire and maybe serious but I was not sure and they need to go on to describe how you looked for your phone

00:06:55 your phone and then you say lower down in the same paragraph towards the end of it on the top of the next page there was no fire alarm and the smoke was very thin almost

00:07:06 alarm and the smoke was very thin almost unnoticeable in the lobby area when I was on the staircase walking up to the 13th floor there was no fire alarm no smoke and it was light um can I just ask

00:07:17 smoke and it was light um can I just ask you first of all what fire alarm are you referring to there the main one because usually if is a fire or if his smoke in the loving area there should be a normal

00:07:28 the loving area there should be a normal fire for the building I'm not talking about the normal fires the fire alarms in the in the in the flats because you know his even I cannot he even hear that

00:07:39 know his even I cannot he even hear that anyway

00:07:40 anyway but I mean I was talking about the you know the the fire I mean the fire alarm on the on the stack on the staircase or even on the lung on the launch of the

00:07:52 even on the lung on the launch of the the landing right did you think there was a general building fire alone in the lobby areas yes because they happened once before when was that you know I mean I cannot remember not by my head no

00:08:04 mean I cannot remember not by my head no right so did you expect an alarm to go off

00:08:07 off yes that event I mean they happened and they closed even the central heating and also the the hot water in that I cannot

00:08:20 also the the hot water in that I cannot be precise open all the time but he was after the refurbishment after they just give the the building to us that we have weekend without hot water and the same

00:08:32 weekend without hot water and the same everything because of that right I'm sorry to just take a little bit but I just want to I'm interested in what you said about the general building far along what made you think that there was

00:08:44 along what made you think that there was a general building far along with in the sensors in the lobby because I was there in the building in the in that in the building when that thing happened and it was a fire alarm everywhere all the

00:08:56 was a fire alarm everywhere all the ventilation he works at the time because it was a big noise outside of the you know on top of the main entrance and that one they create a big noise and

00:09:07 that one they create a big noise and inside also it was a you know a big noise also and everywhere in the building you don't remember when that happened there I'm apologizing no for my

00:09:18 happened there I'm apologizing no for my head it was after they finished the the refurbishment was it yes gee okay George Arriba how long after they finished the refurbishment it was not so long that if maybe a

00:09:32 it was not so long that if maybe a couple of months maybe I'm not sure I cannot be precise on that on that night do you remember whether the fire brigade attended yes they did but then they

00:09:43 attended yes they did but then they doesn't know how to switch that thing off right did you see that for yourself yes okay did you see the fire brigade come and try and switch the alarm off how did you remember whether they did

00:09:55 how did you remember whether they did switch the alarm oh I think later on in the day but they cannot put the central heating or you know because they call some engineers to come under replace and do something on the central heating but

00:10:07 do something on the central heating but he was a weekend or without any hot water and the centrality okay

00:10:20 and do you know whether there was a fire to which I believe something sorry I believe it was maybe a kid or something they just break that you know that small

00:10:32 they just break that you know that small glass that you know is for that purpose I assume and you know look like somebody did this one years right where was this

00:10:44 did this one years right where was this smooth but are you saying there was a small glass panel in the building that's what they have been told I didn't see that

00:10:53 that that thing's much at the time he was the the fire brigade who told me that this I see okay did you remember which you know station the fire brigade come from I believe he's from North Kensington I

00:11:05 believe he's from North Kensington I believe because it's the closest one but I'm not like a not thinking being precise on that okay how sure are you that it was after the refurbishment but not before because during the

00:11:16 not before because during the refurbishment is always a number that we can call if something goes wrong we can call them and they will come to repair and that party was after that because he was no number and no people to around to

00:11:28 was no number and no people to around to repair anything okay now going back to your statement you say in paragraph nine

00:11:40 your statement you say in paragraph nine as you as we've seen that there was a very light layer of smoke that you noticed as the doors opened did you notice any smoke in the lift before the

00:11:52 notice any smoke in the lift before the lift opened on the fourth floor no okay when the men got out of the lift on the fourth floor did you see which direction they went in my wife's yesterday she said left but I'm not sure if they were

00:12:06 said left but I'm not sure if they were left or right I apologize as I'm so I'm sorry bad I cannot see it because if you have the CCTV we could be precise on that but because you didn't show us the

00:12:17 that but because you didn't show us the city be only the photos that we cannot get the right if I'm not sure I cannot be sure of that and you came out to the lift as well Sonny did you come out of the lift as

00:12:29 Sonny did you come out of the lift as well as straight away yes right away can I just show you two CCTV pictures taken from camera c18 which is the camera in the lift

00:12:39 the lift the first is inq 3 9 4 please and that is timed with an adjusted time of 0

00:12:51 is timed with an adjusted time of 0 hours 56 minutes of 38 seconds so just a little bit less than 4 minutes to 1 yeah can you tell us what that shows me and

00:13:02 can you tell us what that shows me and my wife doing what it's just coming into the hinterland okay and the second picture is inq 3 9 5 and that's taken at

00:13:17 picture is inq 3 9 5 and that's taken at an adjusted time of 0 as 57 minutes and 24 seconds so some 6 seconds later what does that show

00:13:28 does that show me and my wife coming out of the lift right and can you can you get an impression of the smoke from this picture yes I mean is this slightly smoke coming smoke on top of us on the

00:13:42 smoke coming smoke on top of us on the lift they came in when we opened the old one the daughter of the lift open does this give us a fair impression of the smoke that you saw when you came out of the lift you did our impression is

00:13:53 the lift you did our impression is different because the camera they take the picture from art from the dock hose and when you are lower you can see the smoke only on the on the on the ceiling and because it was white or I mean gray

00:14:07 and because it was white or I mean gray that we we cannot get much about what our much smoke it is yes that's the reason that I mentioned on the statement light smoke yes okay thank you

00:14:21 other than at the ceiling level do you have any memory of seeing any other smoke in the lobby at that time no I try to be quick anyway because yes there's

00:14:33 to be quick anyway because yes there's no point for me to be there anymore could you smell the smoke no I know did you have any other or any physical effect on you no now in your statement

00:14:44 effect on you no now in your statement of parent paragraph 9 which we've seen you you describe how you you and your wife decide to go in different directions is this right she decides she goes down

00:14:55 is this right she decides she goes down to the ground floor to get your phone from the car and you go up to the 13th floor to wake up the children yeah I realized that these know the my phone he was not on my pocket because the first

00:15:06 was not on my pocket because the first thing is looked to the phone to call them in the fire brigade and I realized that I left the phone in the car and I you know asked her if she can go to the

00:15:17 you know asked her if she can go to the car bring my phone that I said I decided to go up and bring my kids down that's what is on my mind I see right away yeah and do you know Jeremy where you were

00:15:32 and do you know Jeremy where you were when you had that discussion about dividing and going different ways cannot be precise but I I'm sure when I came out from the lift it was my mind he goes

00:15:43 out from the lift it was my mind he goes straight to my kids to wake them up and that's when I realized that there's no phone that's why he said I said I'm going up he going down that's that's it was my decision to do that did you

00:15:55 was my decision to do that did you notice anybody else on the fourth floor in the lobby at that time I think he wasn't somebody but I didn't even look anyway I think here I was focused to do

00:16:06 anyway I think here I was focused to do what yours on my mind did you hear any noises no

00:16:12 did you at that stage notice any smoke ventilation or extraction system in operation on that floor no did you feel any movement of air no okay do you

00:16:26 any movement of air no okay do you remember who opened the door from the lobby into the stairwell by the look of the of the image I'm sure he was me world went first and I opened the door

00:16:38 world went first and I opened the door and my wife she just hold the hold the door for her and ask her to go down that's he I mean he was in the in split seconds of course of course

00:16:50 seconds of course of course did you notice a difference in the air between the lobby and the stairwell once you entered the stairwell not much the difference is only the on the on the lobby he was like this light smoke

00:17:01 lobby he was like this light smoke wander on the ceiling yes and on the staircase I mean his it was clear ok so then after you enter the stairwell Fatima goes get your wife goes downstairs and you go upstairs how long

00:17:14 downstairs and you go upstairs how long do you think it took you to get from the 4th to the 13th floor not long I ran up for myself even I'm a woman already but then me pace to go up OK

00:17:30 then me pace to go up OK and on the way up did you notice anything unusual about the air in the in the stairwell not to talk nothing did you hear any particular noises in the stairwell no machinery ventilation no

00:17:42 stairwell no machinery ventilation no you didn't if he was I mean I I didn't take any notice but that did you come did you come across anybody coming down no okay

00:17:53 now in your statement of paragraphs 10 and 11 you say that in general terms you've got your children and then went to knock on your neighbor's doors and

00:18:05 to knock on your neighbor's doors and you describe that in detail there and then having woken up your neighbors you describe how you then came back down the stairs while you are in the well first of all how long do you think you spent in your home waking up the children and

00:18:17 in your home waking up the children and then leaving again maybe like 10 minutes 10 minutes okay and during that time did you hear the intercom yes you did yes

00:18:32 you hear the intercom yes you did yes you did hear it yeah did you answer it yes you did yeah who did you speak to I didn't speak when we then anybody because know is nobody answered the other side I don't know if I was late because I was in the

00:18:44 know if I was late because I was in the lobby you know just doing the I know I was knocking on the doors and I can hear when I went back to the flat I answer

00:18:56 when I went back to the flat I answer but I think it was my wife but I think talk to her because maybe she was not there or I was too late to okay answer how long does just describe how this

00:19:08 how long does just describe how this intercom system works so you buzz it from downstairs yes I think as fatima said yesterday you put in 205 call yes and then it rings how long does it ring

00:19:20 and then it rings how long does it ring in the flat for I heard that they could be up till 45 45 milliseconds right and then what happens I mean they will shut it okay

00:19:34 elicit an intercom phone or is it a landline intercom font intercom phone and can you tell us where in the flat it that the intercom phone is located when we come out I mean is on the front door

00:19:47 we come out I mean is on the front door on the front door next next the front door not yes next to the left or right depending on the floods were dumping on my knees on the right we're on the way out on the way outside okay so next to

00:19:58 out on the way outside okay so next to the latch yes okay and when you want to let somebody in is there a button number yes I scan will release the door yes and they they open the both doors that you know the front door plus the one there

00:20:10 know the front door plus the one there go straight to the lifts yes I see okay and is it possible to speak to somebody in a flat without them picking up the receiver on the intercom system no now

00:20:23 receiver on the intercom system no now in paragraph 12 of your statement you describe your walk down the stairs and you say Thiago antennas have gone ahead

00:20:35 you say Thiago antennas have gone ahead of me they just said we're all clear Thiago is your your son your elder son meddled and Ynez was your younger daughter yes and after waking people up in the other flats I started walking

00:20:46 in the other flats I started walking down the stairs and then you say I as I walked down I didn't hear any fire alarm or see any smoke the lobby area was clear from smoke we're just pausing there which lobby area are you referring to there I assume downstairs but I mean

00:20:59 to there I assume downstairs but I mean any any way from the top to the bottom he was no no smoker - okay then you go on to say the only thing I heard was the extraction fan now I just want to ask

00:21:12 extraction fan now I just want to ask about that when did you first hear the extraction fan after having come out into the stairwell do you remember no when I came down that I can see from outside he was a

00:21:23 outside he was a yeah I can see the extracting funniest oh I see say that's after you left the building s it right let's take this in stages on the way down through the stairwell from the 13th floor to the

00:21:35 stairwell from the 13th floor to the lobby did you hear the extraction fan system working did you notice any some funny I did I cannot remember I am right did you notice did you notice anything

00:21:46 did you notice did you notice anything unusual or different about the way down II was something unusual because it was the fight I just cross with the two firefighters with some hoses on cunning

00:21:57 firefighters with some hoses on cunning with their hoses yes around the fourth floor

00:21:59 floor yes the rest I mean is not much different than the normal I knew what happened because I've been already on the way up I stopped on the fourth floor

00:22:10 the way up I stopped on the fourth floor yes and you say when you came out you can see from the outside the extraction

00:22:21 can see from the outside the extraction fan when you came out well what did you see in terms of the extraction fan I don't see much I just hurt and I expect because I expected that work that the fan is working

00:22:33 that work that the fan is working because he's a fire in the building did you say you heard it did you actually hear it working I don't know if he was working but I mean at least I can hear yes you heard a sample could you describe the sound for us I mean it's

00:22:46 describe the sound for us I mean it's like next hour you subscribe if you could subscribe but is like a fan like pushing something right and that will you inside the lobby when you've heard

00:22:57 you inside the lobby when you've heard that no no I want maybe I can hear from inside because the the Dory was open I mean I can see a starting to you on the lobby downstairs right did you look up

00:23:08 lobby downstairs right did you look up the building when you came out no I mean no because I knew that that funda used to be on top of the their main interests Amit did you notice any smoke being extracted from the bill

00:23:21 any smoke being extracted from the bill that no in your statement you say it's not unusual this is paragraph 12 just to get back to the top of page five of your statement you say it is not unusual that's in the

00:23:35 you say it is not unusual that's in the second section on the screen it is not unusual to hear it making a noise and it worked as a ventilation system at the time it was making a noise I don't know if it was working properly but there was

00:23:46 if it was working properly but there was a noise could you just explain when you say it's not unusual to hear it making a noise before the night of the fire what could you live here they have two

00:23:57 could you live here they have two extraction points in the in the lobbies I mean and they changed the position of the of the that's why there is a noise to change from one to the other

00:24:08 to change from one to the other I assume I am NOT expert I don't know what that works anyway but they open one and they closed the other did you see that working as sometimes yes two times

00:24:19 that working as sometimes yes two times before he will feel a few times I'm sorry I didn't a few times before the night yes but they was not working properly I mean he's just the noise changing from from one point to the to

00:24:31 changing from from one point to the to the other right these two points that the the the supposed to be one to bring air inside I assume I'm not explained anyway but they change the position

00:24:43 anyway but they change the position sometimes to time okay gee do you remember what calls those positions to change I really don't know I assume me some I mean

00:24:55 setup that they do this one sometimes we find right and what would you say it's not unusual to hear it making a noise you referring to those okay that's nice yes okay and what would you normally

00:25:07 yes okay and what would you normally hear if you stood in the lobby on a normal evening what would you normally hear nothing nothing say when are you on the night of the third what did did you hear anything in the

00:25:18 what did did you hear anything in the lobby I I really I cannot you know they precise but I think he was no noise at all but I'm not you know I can be you know I I cannot remember if that was in

00:25:29 know I I cannot remember if that was in any kind of that noisy okay and I suspect the answer would be similar but on the night of the fire do you remember feeling any movement of air either in the lobby on floor 13 or in the

00:25:42 the lobby on floor 13 or in the stairwell no I'm going to move to a different and subject which is the fire safety advice can I please ask you to be

00:25:54 safety advice can I please ask you to be shown BL a quadruple zero two four one six

00:26:15 now this is a notice as you can see which which is situated at the lift this one is just taken by our experts after the fire from the wall between the lifts

00:26:28 the fire from the wall between the lifts on the third floor yes do you remember seeing a notice like this prior to the fire remember seen I I cannot be precise if he was on my on my floor but I remain is maybe on the on

00:26:41 floor but I remain is maybe on the on the ground floor but I can remembers to see that yes did you ever did you ever read it bathe me yes yes now did you

00:26:52 read it bathe me yes yes now did you ever think about it and take on board what it was saying I think about from the under on the night of the fire that I ignore completely this one I

00:27:04 that I ignore completely this one I apologise for because the rules there should be I mean we should go to by the rules but I I did the other day opposite

00:27:15 rules but I I did the other day opposite the opposite way anyway right that's a everybody they should do that anyway were you aware of any advice that has been made available to residents like yourself other than that the advice

00:27:28 yourself other than that the advice contained in this notice no no

00:27:41 did the advice so far as you could as far as you read and understood it did that have any influence on the one what you did on the night not at all

00:27:54 you did on the night not at all I think on my mind he was to say myself because if I will be fired on the fourth floor I'm on the thirteenth floor is like a truck why should I be in the

00:28:06 like a truck why should I be in the truck when I have the opportunity to come out I mean this is is something that he was straight on my mind anyway at the time of course yes come on

00:28:18 at the time of course yes come on because if in the event of the fire if they spread they were every minute they will go worst I don't know why we are waiting for if we are in the truck we

00:28:30 waiting for if we are in the truck we should come out of that because every minute it was worst inside of the tower at the time but that's what my thinking before they happen anyway

00:28:42 before they happen anyway and I know you as you've described in your statement you alerted your neighbors as well as taking your children to safety

00:28:53 children to safety what made you alert all the neighbors on your floor as you did because yeah I think it was my duty to help my neighbors because they are my family in any way the people they live on my floor

00:29:05 any way the people they live on my floor is like family I wish I have the same string and go to the top floor and bring go everybody down that's the the reason that I did this one because it's safer outside than inside special one is not

00:29:19 outside than inside special one is not so bad to come out yes now do you remember I having after you'd come down giving anything to a firefighter yes my fault your fault yes

00:29:32 firefighter yes my fault your fault yes did you okay well let's just look at a picture

00:29:35 picture can I please ask that the witness be shown inq1 seven eight

00:29:54 now this is a photograph taken at an adjusted time of oh one oh eight 13 can

00:30:08 adjusted time of oh one oh eight 13 can you identify yourself in that picture yes well which one is it I mean the brow jacket you're not the one in the white film oh yeah a small bill sometimes we have to ask these rather formal formal

00:30:20 have to ask these rather formal formal questions and what are you doing in that picture do you think I think he asked me for the fall and that and I did just after that or something I just take from

00:30:32 after that or something I just take from my mic my ring and I give my fault to to him yes

00:30:37 him yes do you remember whether your children had gone in front of you or were they behind you Oh in front of Midland I send them early they're like around four or five minutes earlier than me yes and do you remember at this stage whether you'd

00:30:49 you remember at this stage whether you'd seen your wife at my station no she was still outside but she was not sighs did you know at this point that your wife had already given her fob what used her

00:31:01 had already given her fob what used her fob to let the firefighters in into the building I didn't know that you didn't know

00:31:07 know can I ask you did you offer your fob to the firefighter in the white helmet or did yes I was white that years I think he's Mike Mike doubt and Alton yes did he ask you for the for what did you did

00:31:19 he ask you for the for what did you did you offer it to him I assume that he asked me for the four years can you remember no no yeah he asked me for the vyasji

00:31:25 vyasji okay he said begin again you're gonna give me back later on but he never did right did he tell you that your wife had already used her fault to admit other

00:31:36 already used her fault to admit other firefighters into the building no she never met him no did he mention it no he doesn't know my wife that he was my wife anyway no that's true but he might he might very good point but he might

00:31:50 might very good point but he might okay did he tell you that somebody had used their fob to allow his firefighters into the building already know now you

00:32:03 into the building already know now you outside the building you describe what you saw and a paragraph 16 you say after

00:32:17 you saw and a paragraph 16 you say after taking photos of the parked cars and you describe that you then moved around the tower to the east side my Fatima Thiago and in Aires were standing the fire was still inside but one or two minutes later the windows smashed and the fire

00:32:28 later the windows smashed and the fire came out first just pausing there could you tell which floor or flat the fire was on on the fourth floor you could tell that yes and can you describe

00:32:39 could tell that yes and can you describe anything about the fire that came out that you saw its color intensity it's not the big intensity in the beginnings straightaway but they starting to build

00:32:52 straightaway but they starting to build up as soon as the the glass you know came out and they starting to build up I think maybe see yellow or hour and something like that and did you see what

00:33:05 something like that and did you see what what happened next you saw oh yes they're starting to to go up and some like plastic melting downstairs we are

00:33:16 like plastic melting downstairs we are mean down with there's some flames on it

00:33:25 and you say the last part of that paragraph I could not believe how quickly and how fast the fire was spreading it was growing like mad the cladding was already on fire and coming

00:33:37 cladding was already on fire and coming down like plastic rain I took a video showing this at 1:15 did you see when you were standing there that the fire

00:33:48 you were standing there that the fire start to get into the cladding I mean when Lee came out he was continuous I mean I don't know if he was already on the cladding and it was maybe you're

00:34:00 the cladding and it was maybe you're already inside oh no I I'm not sure I mean you know even when the glass is bling I was not looking at I just hear that and that's when they catch me that the eye on it because I was doing

00:34:11 the eye on it because I was doing something else when the glass smashes outside yes did you did you notice whether the flames were coming through the only through the

00:34:22 were coming through the only through the gap left by the pane of glass or whether coming from other places in the window frame do you remember he was already everywhere on the window I can also say that what this is where they start he

00:34:33 that what this is where they start he was already inside or not I mean I'm not sure but for the glass tools to split to because it was very hot I'm sure that

00:34:44 because it was very hot I'm sure that the flames to be know around the window [Music]

00:34:49 [Music] yes mr. Oliver's I've come to the end of my questions you've been very helpful indeed and what we normally do at this stage is have a short break to make sure I've got no other questions for you or my team have got no other questions or

00:35:01 my team have got no other questions or other people have gotten their questions so I'm going to ask the Chairman to take a short break if I may and then then come back so it's that okay Thank You mr. chairman

00:35:12 chairman yes thank you we have a short break now so cancel finish just check his notes and see whether there are other questions to ask you sure we'll come back at quarter to 11 and if you'd like

00:35:25 back at quarter to 11 and if you'd like and please don't talk to it on anyone about your evidence we're after the road all right so if you go with the action cop to thank you

00:35:43 yes right course to elevenses

00:44:24 yes mr. village few more questions there are one or two including one or two I've thought up myself say can we please have the widt yes thank you

00:44:40 [Music]

00:44:49 all right Elvis I think there are one or two questions he what mr. millet has four yes

00:44:55 four yes mr. Alvarez you discussed with me earlier this morning the subject of drafts or air coming through the windows after the refurbishment did that have

00:45:06 after the refurbishment did that have affect any particular rooms in the flat he wasn't more on the sitting room sitting room did you take any action or do anything to stop the drafts coming in

00:45:17 do anything to stop the drafts coming in no no I never do you also discussed we also discussed together the noise of the ventilation system that you say you heard and when you got down to the ground floor and I asked you whether

00:45:29 ground floor and I asked you whether that was in the lobby or outside do you remember seeing or knowing about an extraction outlet on the outside of the tower the noise he was not under on the

00:45:42 tower the noise he was not under on the lobby but I can hear from the lobby but he was outside it was outside he knows where it was cut I'm sorry continue on top of that you know the the front door

00:45:54 top of that you know the the front door right did you know that there let me show you let me see if I can get this get it this way by looking you a photograph so you could please be showing BL a quadruple zero four five

00:46:07 showing BL a quadruple zero four five three one this is a photograph taken I think during the refurbishment and you

00:46:19 think during the refurbishment and you can see the lobby entrance there with the green the green covering and above that there's some windows if you look through the scaffolding you can see that

00:46:30 through the scaffolding you can see that and then above the windows there's a vent extract point looking back on the night does this help you with your recollection as to where the noise was

00:46:42 recollection as to where the noise was coming from yeah it's coming from that they heard it did you yes was it a loud noise he wasn't I mean I could not be precise but that mean he was a noise on that was it a noise that you would

00:46:54 that was it a noise that you would normally hear coming out no no no so it was like I heard once before as I mentioned

00:46:59 mentioned right to you that he wasn't that event that he was after they finished the refurbishment did you look up at it no okay thank you and can I then ask you to

00:47:13 okay thank you and can I then ask you to take your to go back to your statement will be taken back to your statement and go please to paragraph 20 on page 7 you

00:47:29 go please to paragraph 20 on page 7 you you say under the heading people calls to people trapped inside I was feeling sick by what I was seeing I knew people in the tower and tried to calm our CEO who I played football with over the past

00:47:40 who I played football with over the past two years and what's his surname and Mario Gomez Marcia Gomez and then halfway down the paragraph you say I

00:47:51 halfway down the paragraph you say I called him but not actually the percentage before I kept saying that he cut he had to come out but he told me his wife was pregnant and it would be difficult to come out because she could not walk easily and because there was already smoking his landing did he say

00:48:04 already smoking his landing did he say that yes he said that her smoking his landing yeah and I called him around 130 to 135 how do you remember that time I'm not sure about exactly the time but I

00:48:17 not sure about exactly the time but I was waiting for that's the reason I call a bit late and I should because my wife she was talking with Joelle she mentioned this one yesterday and he was with my phone and she had to

00:48:29 and he was with my phone and she had to kept the Jurong come out with you know and that I was waiting for her to give me the phone back because my intention was to call Marci and I think I just did

00:48:40 was to call Marci and I think I just did after she finished the call which one and that's why I realized I'm not sure I can be confirmed by him but oh by the you know the phone provider

00:48:53 oh by the you know the phone provider because I'm not exactly sure what is the time

00:48:56 time haffley I take this one as I assume that is that it was the time yes yes and then you go on to say I find him a few times and kept telling him he had to come out

00:49:08 and kept telling him he had to come out do you remember through the night how were the times even roughly when you called him in he was how posh - that she was the second call right and that's I

00:49:20 was the second call right and that's I beg him to come out because I said I said to him if you if you are not if you didn't come out you're gonna die I told him strike that and I just I'm sorry I

00:49:31 him strike that and I just I'm sorry I use a swell language the Portuguese in Portuguese you have to come out because there's no way for him to escape or yeah I tell him just call the fire brigade

00:49:42 I tell him just call the fire brigade just tell them do you are on the way down maybe they will meet you halfway right and you say half past two you remember that what I mean i s and he's not proper

00:49:55 not proper you know I cannot be precise on the time okay are you apologize but that cannot be presents under stand above and just

00:50:07 be presents under stand above and just same question really but on the next paragraph paragraph 21 in your statement you you say Marcio told me that he opened the door about three times and each time there was a there was very thick smoke by now I was around the

00:50:19 thick smoke by now I was around the northern side and it was about 130 to 140 is that the time of the call in which he told you that he'd opened the door about three times no he was later

00:50:31 door about three times no he was later the second call maybe I maybe I mixed up but I assume he was on the second on the second course so when you say 130 to 140 is that wrong this is a first call that's the first

00:50:43 this is a first call that's the first call so it was it that maybe less I'm not I apologize but I'm not exactly sure what is the time that I call him that but they can be you know check by

00:50:54 that but they can be you know check by my phone provider if it's yes so just looking at the 130 to 140 time was it that whatever time that was you you

00:51:07 that whatever time that was you you think that was your first call with master coffee but he told you he'd open the door about three times no in on the second call he says I did try a few times I've got to come out but he said

00:51:18 times I've got to come out but he said there's no wait because his is very thick smoke and his wife he was pregnant and that's why I cannot make it right

00:51:29 and that's why I cannot make it right when you think that second call was at 2:30 old saying 2:30 maybe it could be wrong but you know because the time on on the night for me is difficult to

00:51:41 on the night for me is difficult to record oh yeah because I was already on she'll Chester Road I think behind the school when I make the second cool because the police they keep keepers

00:51:55 because the police they keep keepers pushing pushing us out of the of the building yes of the place I see ok yes thank you um thank you very much mr.

00:52:06 thank you um thank you very much mr. Elvis I have no further questions for you it remains for me to thank you very much for your evidence today and in your statement has been immensely helpful and of great value to us and I'm very grateful to you for coming here and

00:52:17 grateful to you for coming here and assisting us with our investigations and

00:52:22 do you I'd like you to tell the Chairman whether you have any recollection of anything else in addition to what's in your statement and what you've told us today that you'd like to tell the

00:52:34 today that you'd like to tell the Chairman that you remember about the events of that night now for the moment no thank you well thank you very much miss Travis well mr. Evans I'd like to add my thanks

00:52:45 well mr. Evans I'd like to add my thanks to those of mr. millet it's really helpful to us to hear from people who were in the tower at the time of the fire because it's only those people who can describe the conditions at different

00:52:58 can describe the conditions at different times during that event and so your evidence is very very helpful and we're very grateful to you for coming along to tell us about your experience you're welcome he's my duty to come and help

00:53:10 welcome he's my duty to come and help well thank you very much all right well now you're free to go would you like to go with the usher and she's a cop

00:53:31 yes mr. millet mr. chairman we do now have some reading of statements into the record yeah and there are a fair number of statements that I want to read in and

00:53:42 of statements that I want to read in and in the process of doing so we'll read out loud parts of those most many of those statements yes I think it is a value for you and others to hear what

00:53:53 value for you and others to hear what those witnesses have to say even though they're not being called to give to give oral evidence so what I was going to propose was just to move straight ahead into that it may take 45 minutes or so

00:54:06 into that it may take 45 minutes or so well why don't you start start the reading now and about quarter past eleven do you think we could have a break yet give you a break as well that's very generous yes thank you so we

00:54:20 that's very generous yes thank you so we start then with the witness statement of Thiago Alves who we've heard a little bit about you know he was the 20 year old son of Fatima and Manuel Alvarez

00:54:32 old son of Fatima and Manuel Alvarez from whom you've heard mr. chairman and he lived at flat 105 on floor 13 and he is studying undergraduate physics at King's College London now his statement

00:54:46 King's College London now his statement is iws nine to six and he's provided for exhibits and those have a reference of iws one to four and ta one ta - ta three

00:55:02 iws one to four and ta one ta - ta three ta four are the exhibits and they are floor plans and a plan or various plans of the area surrounded grenfell tower now in his statement he set out his

00:55:15 now in his statement he set out his recollection his own recollection of the events of that night and his statement is dated the 16th of May 2018 and the

00:55:27 is dated the 16th of May 2018 and the statement there is up statement of truth in it on page 18 above his signature yes

00:55:35 he is seen leaving the building through the main exit at 1:05 o 1:00 a.m. he describes in his statement how he his father came home and told him to

00:55:47 father came home and told him to evacuate the tower and he left he left immediately with his sister going ahead of his father and he's provided detailed descriptions of what he noticed in terms of smoke and in terms of fire before his

00:56:00 of smoke and in terms of fire before his father returned home and during his exit from the tower I just want to read into the record some detail that of his observations that he makes at paragraph 37 about what he saw once he left the

00:56:18 37 about what he saw once he left the tower he says this is page 9 of the statement

00:56:33 he says I was standing on the grass area and could see smoke coming out of the fourth-floor flat there was a fire inside which I could see behind the window then the frame fell out and

00:56:46 window then the frame fell out and suddenly I could see smoke and the fire burst out it was flat 16 which is on the fourth floor the window frame looked like it was melting and bubbling but didn't look like it was on fire I could

00:56:58 didn't look like it was on fire I could tell it was cheap grey plastic as I watched the window fall out of the flat fire was coming out of the open window I was in complete disbelief I stood just

00:57:09 was in complete disbelief I stood just looking up at flat 16 the window frame had fallen out so heard it had created a gap between where the frame used to be and the outside cladding material what I could clearly see was the fire rolling

00:57:22 could clearly see was the fire rolling under the cladding the fire would come out of the flat and kind of roll under will slightly disappear under the gray cladding as it did this the cladding caught fire I could see that fire was

00:57:35 caught fire I could see that fire was escaping into the cavity between the insulation and what I thought was a low mininum cladding when this caught a light there was a faint flash of light which sparked and then once the light

00:57:47 which sparked and then once the light sparks started falling the fire reminded me of a chemistry lesson at school where you would watch magnesium burn when magnesium first has initial contact with

00:57:58 magnesium first has initial contact with a fire the fire doesn't burn the magnesium but there is a small flash of bright lights as it ignites and then the magnesium burns as I looked at the tower I was reminded of this and it seemed

00:58:09 I was reminded of this and it seemed that the gray cladding was burning in the same way fire was spreading up the tower and debris was coming down and causing sparks to fly down from the tower

00:58:17 tower I could hear crackling noises and he goes on to say that he remained outside the tower until 1:30 a.m. when he took his sister in Eze to a neighbor's house

00:58:29 his sister in Eze to a neighbor's house and he set out his observations of the fire from paragraphs 39 to 49 later in the night

00:58:42 the next statement mr. chairman I should read into the record is the statement of his sister in Eze and I think it would be right to make it clear both for his benefit and for everyone else's that the

00:58:55 benefit and for everyone else's that the whole of his statement which extends to what some over sixty seventy paragraph yes here's part of the evidence before the inquiry and it will all be taken into account and considered in

00:59:07 into account and considered in conjunction with the rest of the evidence yes absolutely absolutely that's right to make that here I should have done say I should also say that whilst whilst whilst were on that statement the his journey down the tower

00:59:21 statement the his journey down the tower that he describes is clearly set out at paragraph as paragraphs 24 through 226 427 Inez's statement assists that of his

00:59:34 427 Inez's statement assists that of his sister the daughter of Maria and Miguel Alvarez is the next statement I would wish to read into the record she was of course also a resident in flat 105 on the 13th floor she was 16 years old and

00:59:48 the 13th floor she was 16 years old and the younger of the two children and she came down and out of the tower at the same time as Thiago her brother her statement is at iws 436 and she is seen

01:00:04 statement is at iws 436 and she is seen on CCTV to have exited exited the tower at oh one Oh 457

01:00:15 a statement is dated the 18th of May and there is a statement of truth at the end of the statement underneath her signature there which is on page 19 and she describes in detail

01:00:31 on page 19 and she describes in detail her own experiences of the night and the particular human interest is the experience she had of her great anxiety of having to go to a chemistry GCSE the

01:00:43 of having to go to a chemistry GCSE the next morning and her concern to save her revision notes and to keep revising through the night if she could and I understand it paid great dividends well

01:00:54 understand it paid great dividends well I think it paid some diffidence I think she got an a although I think from her statement she explains that she was hoping for more so that is clearly unfortunate I think taking your exams

01:01:06 unfortunate I think taking your exams the day after an experience of this kind it's astonishing that's astonishing I don't know how she did it but that's not that's not a submission it's just an observation we then go to the next

01:01:17 observation we then go to the next statement which is the statement of Dorinda and Connor Theon as Sora's chance where should we make it clear

01:01:29 chance where should we make it clear perhaps it's not necessary to say this every time but although you're reading parts of statements and summarizing other parts of them in each case the

01:01:41 other parts of them in each case the whole statement is evidence in before the inquiry and it will all be considered and taken until you absolutely will not again I admitted to make that point in relation to energy statement but that is certainly the concerti the case mr. chairman now miss

01:01:56 concerti the case mr. chairman now miss Suarez chances statement is dated the 15th of June 2018 there's a statement of truth and a signature on page 7 of that statement and it's iaws nine eight five

01:02:11 and she was a resident of flat 103 on the 13th floor and I would just like to read into the record a particular

01:02:24 read into the record a particular interest paragraphs 15 through 221 of her statement which described her experiences of going to bed and then being woken up and coming down the

01:02:35 being woken up and coming down the stairs at 15 she says I recall that my husband went to bed quite early that evening at about 9:30 p.m. and I went to bed probably at around 11 p.m. the first

01:02:47 bed probably at around 11 p.m. the first we were aware of the fire was when we heard a loud banging on our door this was at around 1:00 a.m. whoever was banging did not stop and just kept on banging on our door my husband got up to

01:02:59 banging on our door my husband got up to see who it was and found our neighbor from flat 105 which is on the same landing as our flat standing outside he told us that he had heard that there was a fire on the fourth floor and he thought it best for us to leave and just

01:03:11 thought it best for us to leave and just get out of the building well though there was absolutely no sign of fire that's at this stage at all there were no flames or smoke anywhere either in our flat or on the landing I decided

01:03:23 our flat or on the landing I decided with my husband that it would be sensible to follow his advice and just leave the building we decided to put on some out of clothes over our night where we all say wet sand towels to put over

01:03:35 we all say wet sand towels to put over our mouths in case we encountered smoke on the way down we then knocked on a neighbor's door and told them what had happened and we also knocked on another door flat 106 but the door did not open I also called a

01:03:48 door did not open I also called a neighbor of mine who lived in flat 46 on the 7th floor I recall that when we were outside we did not hear any alarms going off at all there were no smoke alarms or fire alarms at that stage after

01:04:01 fire alarms at that stage after telephoning my friend in flat 47 and knocking on the doors on our landing we then made our way downstairs I was just with my husband there was no one else there and going down the stairs was very

01:04:13 there and going down the stairs was very easy there was no smoke at all on the stairs there was no one on the stairs and we did not pass anyone coming up and there was no one else going down it was just the two of us

01:04:24 just the two of us when we got to the fourth floor we could see in the landing that they were farm and there with their hoses but we did not say anything to them and they did not say anything to us we just made our

01:04:35 not say anything to us we just made our way straight down the stairs it did not take very long maybe five to ten minutes at most

01:04:40 at most to get from our flat to the down to the ground floor we then made our way out of the building and like all those other statements before it mr. chairman that

01:04:52 statements before it mr. chairman that the entirety of this statement stands in the record as it will be taken into account and is extremely valuable the next statement that I would wish to read into the record is that of her husband

01:05:05 into the record is that of her husband Jose Costacurta Catelli he made a statement to the inquiry iws 984 day to the 15th of June that stands

01:05:16 984 day to the 15th of June that stands under his signature under a statement of truth on page 7 and in fact I should just pick up that although the statement carries the 15th of June as a date on

01:05:28 carries the 15th of June as a date on the first page the date of the signature is the 26th of July 2000 of 18 as one can see from page 7 and again the entirety of that statement goes into the

01:05:41 entirety of that statement goes into the record in its entirety and will be taken into account there's just one paragraph

01:05:49 I should just read in aloud page page one paragraph four when my wife and I first moved into grenfell we did not we do not recall ever being given any

01:06:01 do not recall ever being given any advice about fire safety or what to do in the event of a fire either within or flat or in one or other parts of the building for a long time we did not really have any concerns about fire

01:06:12 really have any concerns about fire safety in the flats or in Grenfell in any way after the extensive refurbishment which was completed only a couple of years before the fire by Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea and their main contractors right and we as a

01:06:24 their main contractors right and we as a family did have consumed concerns about fire safety and then at paragraph 15 through to 20 he describes his trip

01:06:36 through to 20 he describes his trip through the building in the same way that his wife Dorinda does the next statement mr. chairman I would I would wish to read into the record is that of Ivan their son who is now 23 years old

01:06:54 Ivan their son who is now 23 years old or what is now 23 years old yes but I think 22 at the time of the fire who lived until the 14th of June with his

01:07:05 lived until the 14th of June with his parents Dorinda and Jose at flat 103 grenfell tower on the 13th floor his statement is signed on the 26th of July

01:07:17 statement is signed on the 26th of July 2018 although it bears a date on the front at the 22nd of June 2018 it has a statement of truth and like the others it will stand as evidence in full to the inquiry and to be taken into account in

01:07:29 inquiry and to be taken into account in that way the paragraph I would just read into the record aloud as a short one at paragraph 8 where he describes his

01:07:42 paragraph 8 where he describes his concerns about the new windows he says I was concerned about the new windows that were put in previously we had aluminium windows with wooden sills they were replaced by PVC plastic window sills there were problems with gaps and I

01:07:53 there were problems with gaps and I could hear the air coming in through the gaps between the windows and the sills after the refurbishment and paragraphs 12 1 onwards he describes the events of that night he wasn't in fact in the

01:08:05 that night he wasn't in fact in the building and he arrived about 1:30 having been visiting his girlfriend in another part of London say that's that that's his statement and the next one

01:08:21 the next one mr. mr. chairman is the statement of its a phase-one statement of adriana Zimbra and she lived at flat 106 on the 13th

01:08:36 and she lived at flat 106 on the 13th floor her statement is dated the 18th of May but there's a signature of the 21st of May and stands Andre let a statement of truth which is to be found on page 4

01:08:50 of truth which is to be found on page 4 of that statement like all the others her statement will stand in full as her account of the night to the inquiry although she will give me a phase to

01:09:03 although she will give me a phase to provides reserves the right to provide a separate statement for phase 2 her experience of the tower fire is that a detail that paragraphs eight to paragraph 13 and I'll read that into the

01:09:17 paragraph 13 and I'll read that into the into the record a paragraph 8 she says at about 110 I was woken by the sound of someone banging on the door I got out of bed and saw my son alq looking through the spy hole of the front door he told

01:09:30 the spy hole of the front door he told me it was our neighbour Miguel Alvarez who lived in flat 105 out said he was knocking on all the doors I told out to open the door and we both went out onto the landing to meet Miguel he told us that he had just come in from

01:09:42 he told us that he had just come in from outside the building and had seen a farm and trying to put out a fire on the fourth floor and we had to get out another of our neighbors a Spanish woman was also on the landing and when we went out I couldn't see or smell smoke on the

01:09:54 out I couldn't see or smell smoke on the landing we went back inside and looked out of the living room window which overlooks the Kensington Aldridge Academy and I couldn't see any smoke or fire but I could see a group of about

01:10:05 fire but I could see a group of about seven or eight people on the ground looking at the building I woke up my youngest son took my handbag which contained my purse and keys and we all left the flat I pulled the door shut behind me as it did not close

01:10:16 behind me as it did not close automatically but I can't remember if I locked it we walk through the landing through the door into the stairwell the door closed automatically and went down

01:10:27 door closed automatically and went down the stairs the lights were on in the stairwell I could not hear any fire alarm sounding well we walk down the stairs or see any smoke but I could smell smoke when we got to

01:10:38 but I could smell smoke when we got to the fourth floor I saw a fireman coming up the stairs they told me it was under control and to carry on down the stairs as he said this I looked through the door into the landing which was being held open by

01:10:49 landing which was being held open by firefighters bringing equipment through and I could see smoke in front of the lips the smoke wasn't very thick at that stage I didn't see any other residence while we were else we were on the stairs

01:11:00 while we were else we were on the stairs we exited the block at over 117 and went to the grass area behind the tower by the school and then the that is her

01:11:12 the school and then the that is her statement and as I say that will be read into the record in its entirety the next statement we're now just wondering whether that might be a convenient point that was that is yes it is our bill

01:11:25 that was that is yes it is our bill point we'll take a short break at this point until 25 past 11 and then we'll resume and hear some more statements very much anything

01:18:02 you

01:22:25 yes mr. minute mr. chairman I just want to make two corrections to the relativity references to two statements that I refer to before the first is the

01:22:36 that I refer to before the first is the statement for of Thiago Alves which should be iws one two three and the statement for Dorinda Suarez Chan's which should be I WS seven one zero the

01:22:52 which should be I WS seven one zero the next statement the next statement that I would wish to read into the into the record is that for Avenue had Z safer who lived a flat 106 on floor 13 and if

01:23:06 who lived a flat 106 on floor 13 and if I could take that statement it's signed on the 16th of May under a statement of truth and the entirety of the statement

01:23:19 truth and the entirety of the statement as with all the others would have cost and as is evidenced to the inquiry and be taken into account in full the two passages of the statement that I'd like to read in particular at paragraphs

01:23:30 to read in particular at paragraphs eight and nine he says we really quickly organized ourselves I got our passports Adriana got some money addressed the younger boy the older boy was already

01:23:41 younger boy the older boy was already awake and within five minutes we left the flat I shut the door and we took the stairs down the door to the staircase was closed but I had to pull our front door shut as it is not a self shutting

01:23:54 door shut as it is not a self shutting door there was no one else around at all either on our floor or on the stairs and no smoke at all and it did not smell a smoke at that time we thought we were the last people out because of this but

01:24:07 the last people out because of this but on reflection I now think actually we must have been among the first it wasn't until we got to the third floor that we saw three firefighters with hoses on the landing they told us not to panic and

01:24:18 landing they told us not to panic and that everything was under control when we got down to the ground floor there was someone maybe a firefighter I can't remember directing us away from the main entrance towards the exit on the left

01:24:29 entrance towards the exit on the left there was no one else around as we left the building Adriana almost got hit by a small bit of flaming debris there were two firefighters outside at the corner nearest the exit trying to

01:24:41 the corner nearest the exit trying to put out the fire and his statement as I say stands with a statement of truth on page four above the date of 16th of May

01:24:53 page four above the date of 16th of May underneath his signature the next statement and the reference to that I

01:25:04 statement and the reference to that I should if I didn't say it before was I WS 9 to 9 6 I WS 296 the next statement mr. chairman I would wish to read into the record is that for Randa al-harazi

01:25:16 the record is that for Randa al-harazi who lived at flat 102 on the 13th floor and she lived with Mohamed Ahmed and their two children tahleen who was 6 years old and Cyrene

01:25:28 tahleen who was 6 years old and Cyrene who was 3 years old and on the night of the fire they also had two friends visiting them the reference to the wreck into the record is iws 5 her statement

01:25:40 into the record is iws 5 her statement it was made on the 28th of May 2018 and her signature is under a statement of truth of that date on page 4 again like

01:25:54 truth of that date on page 4 again like all the others her statement will stand in full as evidence to the inquiry and will be turned into account in full I just want to read a number of paragraphs into the record specifically paragraph

01:26:07 into the record specifically paragraph 10 she says the flat door had a letterbox which closed the door did not close of its own accord and you had to pull it shut and then at paragraph 16 onwards she says this my husband and my

01:26:20 onwards she says this my husband and my younger friend woke up our two girls and she Muhammad and the two children left the flat first there was no smell of burning in the flat but when the door was opened there was a smell like electric burning the police have showed

01:26:32 electric burning the police have showed me images from the CCTV system at Grenville tower that show firstly my husband and daughter Cyrene at the bottom of the stairs and then my friend carrying my daughter Tali these are

01:26:44 carrying my daughter Tali these are timed at oh one - 17 and a 120 247 respectively I remained inside the flat with my older friend as she wanted to use the bathroom

01:26:55 friend as she wanted to use the bathroom whilst my friend was in the bathroom I picked up coats for the children a coat for myself at the blanket after I had done this I was still waiting for my friend to come out of the bathroom I was

01:27:08 friend to come out of the bathroom I was not worried as there was no fire alarm sounding no sprinklers and no indication of how dangerous the situation I was in it felt to me as if that I was in the flat after my husband had left with the

01:27:20 flat after my husband had left with the children for about 15 minutes although the CCTV images of me at the bottom of the stairs suggest it was a much shorter time when we opened the front door to exit we could smell

01:27:31 front door to exit we could smell burning again but I could not see any smoke the lighting in the lobby area was fine I knocked on my neighbor's door at flat 101 to alert them that something may be wrong but got no response

01:27:42 may be wrong but got no response my lot I closed and locked my front door we had not had any fire drills whilst I was at Grenfell Tower and I'm not sure if I saw or read any fire signs that may have been there but I knew from general

01:27:54 have been there but I knew from general knowledge that in the event of a fire you should not use the lifts we opened the doors to the stairs it was lit and we had no problem seeing I could not see any smoke when we opened the door to the

01:28:05 any smoke when we opened the door to the stairs but could smell the burning smell which was stronger progress down the stairs was slow due to my friend walking with a stick and she was struggling to support herself and I was trying to help

01:28:17 support herself and I was trying to help her we stayed close to the banister on the stairs as we made our way down the burning smell became stronger and we went and as we went down we started to

01:28:28 went and as we went down we started to see smoke I have been shown to smokes text descriptors with some images and I think it was about C when we reached I think the 7th floor we saw two firefighters making their way up the

01:28:39 firefighters making their way up the stairs they had something over their faces I'm not sure what it was they didn't say anything to us and we didn't speak to them when I think the fourth or fifth floor there was thick black smoke

01:28:50 fifth floor there was thick black smoke on the stairs it was coming from the lift lobby area where a lady was opening the door from that floor to the stairs as the door was opened I looked into the lift lobby area of that floor but

01:29:02 lift lobby area of that floor but couldn't see anything it was totally black I'm not sure if this was because there were no lights or because of the smoke it was very scary it was very black on the stairs and we went down through the smoke breathing it

01:29:14 went down through the smoke breathing it in as we went down the stairs to the bottom the smoke diminished and there was no smoke at all on the ground floor I had been shown CCTV images of my friend and myself at the bottom of the

01:29:26 friend and myself at the bottom of the stairs which are timed at oh one 26 27 and Oh 1 26 30 respectively when we finally reached the ground floor and a place of safety we looked and just could

01:29:37 place of safety we looked and just could not believe how large the fire was at Grenfell Tower almost half of the building was on fire I could not believe that we were not warned of the enormity of this fire and to get out if it were not for my friends

01:29:50 to get out if it were not for my friends suggesting we leave our flat to go downstairs I would have quite happily totally unaware remained there and that is her statement we then had on our list

01:30:08 is her statement we then had on our list mr. chairman two further statements to read that of Ramiro bono and that of Oscar Millan Gonzales for reasons I

01:30:19 Oscar Millan Gonzales for reasons I needn't go into we are going to postpone reading those into the record until Monday right if that's not inconvenient to you and therefore I'm going to go

01:30:30 to you and therefore I'm going to go straight to the next statements in our list which should hit that Shaheed Ahmed and her family

01:30:46 I'm sorry Ceyda his wife and zakir their son they lived at flat one five six on floor 18

01:30:59 lived at flat one five six on floor 18 Shaheed Ahmed you may recall mr. chairman is chair of the leaseholders Association right and he lived in that flat with his wife's Aida and and their son if I could start with Shaheed our

01:31:12 son if I could start with Shaheed our mids statement that's dated the 9th of May 2018 it bears his signature on page 13 under a statement of truth and above

01:31:24 13 under a statement of truth and above a date of the 9th of May 2018 and again like all the others his statement will be taken in full into account and stand in full as evidence to the inquiry for

01:31:35 in full as evidence to the inquiry for phase one this particular passage which I would read into the record about his experience on the night and I can start

01:31:47 experience on the night and I can start at paragraph 33 if I may on page 10 underneath the heading the night of the fire on the Tuesday evening before the fire 13th of June it was a normal night

01:31:58 fire 13th of June it was a normal night for me we went to bed around 11:30 p.m. but I couldn't really sleep I must have fallen asleep but it wasn't a very deep sleep

01:32:06 sleep I think our bedroom door was slightly open that night because it was hot my kitchen window was open too and the smoke must have come in which is why the smoke alarms went off all of a sudden

01:32:17 smoke alarms went off all of a sudden all of my smoke alarms went off at the same time a set out above I had one carbon monoxide alarm in the kitchen a smoke alarm in the living room and two smoke alarms in the hallway

01:32:28 smoke alarms in the hallway including one directly above my front door the alarm was very loud I got up but didn't see any smoke until I went into the kitchen as soon as I got into

01:32:39 into the kitchen as soon as I got into the kitchen and looked down out of the window I saw a big fireball coming up from the outside of the building it was the color of a burning sunset in it I initially thought it must be far on the

01:32:51 initially thought it must be far on the flat in the flat below the kitchen window then exploded inwards I was lucky I wasn't close to the no I dialed 999 on the house Fame from the living room however before

01:33:02 the living room however before completing the call and speaking to anybody I through the handset down and decided to get out until recently I believed I had not completed the call however the police have informed me that

01:33:13 however the police have informed me that I did in fact complete the call although I did not speak to anyone before I threw that the handset down and I'm glad I did not speak to the operator as I might have been told to stay put so Aida was in the hallway near the

01:33:25 so Aida was in the hallway near the front door I said to her let's just get out there's a fire I grabbed a pair of trousers and some flip-flops and told sayyida to get out we went out of our front door it was my decision to leave I

01:33:37 front door it was my decision to leave I only realized later that when I'd grab some clothes I tried to grab a jacket but had grabbed extra trousers by mistake while I was outside I felt cold and put one arm through a trouser leg my

01:33:49 and put one arm through a trouser leg my wife and I banged on the door of flat 155 and shouted fire fire fire though they went to 154 the man there opened the door a little bit and I told him to get out because there was a fire

01:34:02 get out because there was a fire I then banged on won 5-3 but I can't remember if there was an answer then I banged on won 5-2 and I think someone answered although I can't remember clearly then I banged on won 5-1 and a lady with the walking frame answered I

01:34:14 lady with the walking frame answered I told her there was a fire and to get out there was a smoke alarm in the lift lobby but it wasn't ringing otherwise that the other flats would have heard it and I wouldn't have had to tell them there was a fire while I was banging on

01:34:27 there was a fire while I was banging on the doors my wife asked me if I could get her mobile phone when I tried to get back into our flat when I opened the front door I saw a thick white and black mixed smoke I smelled smoke something

01:34:39 mixed smoke I smelled smoke something like burning I don't know what exactly I didn't feel the heat coming I shut the door straightaway and then thought we have to get out now it was fight or flight through my years of fighting for

01:34:51 flight through my years of fighting for the health and safety of the building I had the instinct to know the building was not safe and was a ticking time bomb after knocking on the doors and deciding not to go back into our flat my wife and I went down the stairs there was a fire

01:35:03 I went down the stairs there was a fire door between the lobby and the stairs I think it's the same door as before the refurbishment which they just repainted the same feel the same weight it's completely wooden when you push from the

01:35:14 completely wooden when you push from the lobby to open it there was light smoke in the stairwell we went down the stairs and we saw our neighbor from flat one four six there was a man who was a redacted man there was there were other

01:35:26 redacted man there was there were other people there too I spoke to him he told me he was trying to go up so I told him very harshly no you must go down you can't go up after that my wife and I and the redacted man ran down the stairs

01:35:39 the redacted man ran down the stairs we ran past many people I don't really remember I remember we ran past sand firemen I remember saying to one of them there's a fire upstairs and they told me to go back up they had masks on I

01:35:50 to go back up they had masks on I couldn't see their faces I remember feeling that things would be okay because the fire brigade was there everyone was panicking and there were other people on the staircase but we weren't jumping over each other there

01:36:02 weren't jumping over each other there were other people coming out with us we got to the third floor before the refurbishment the same staircase went all the way down to the lobby on the ground floor after the refurbishment at the third floor there was a second

01:36:13 the third floor there was a second staircase leading down to the ground floor level we went down the second staircase you don't have to press the button to open the main entrance door to get outside on the night of the fire I think the door was already open because

01:36:25 think the door was already open because people were going out in front of me we got outside and looked up I realized the intensity of the fire one section of the cladding was on fire all the way to the top I saw a farm and struggling to spray

01:36:37 top I saw a farm and struggling to spray water which only reached up a couple of floors and then I then met lots of residents the redacted man was with us I saw the leaseholder of flat 56 on the 8th floor and another resident called

01:36:49 8th floor and another resident called Abdul who sadly lost his wife as they got separated my wife and I were in a state of desperation and shock with uncontrollable tears and screaming when I met residents I knew I was hugging

01:37:00 I met residents I knew I was hugging them and crying and that statement is now in the record and it's references IW s 388 and there

01:37:13 and it's references IW s 388 and there is an exhibit to it at i WS 500 the next statement mr. chairman is the is the statement of mr. Alvin's wife sayyida

01:37:27 statement of mr. Alvin's wife sayyida and that is under I WS 3 8 3 I'm so sorry

01:37:32 sorry 6 7 6 I WS 6 7 6 it's also dated the 12th of June 2018 and on page 5 there as

01:37:44 12th of June 2018 and on page 5 there as a signature over that date and which stands under a statement of truth and like the other statements I'm reading into the record her statement will stand in full as evidence to the inquiry and

01:37:55 in full as evidence to the inquiry and be taken into account and she explains her own exit from her own point of view

01:38:08 her own exit from her own point of view at paragraphs 10 and 11 and I'll read those into the record specifically as thank you on the night of the fire I was in my that was in the flat with my husband Shaheed we were sleeping when I

01:38:20 husband Shaheed we were sleeping when I was woken up about 1:20 a.m. by the smoke alarms in the flat we both jumped up and my husband went into the kitchen to check I stood in the bedroom I couldn't smell anything as I have sinus

01:38:32 couldn't smell anything as I have sinus problems my husband checked the window and then the fireball came through the window he came through very quick my husband came out of the kitchen and shouted get out there's a fire I had my pajamas on I grabbed a beige colored

01:38:44 pajamas on I grabbed a beige colored jacket from the hallway to put on my husband was also in pajamas we ran to the front door we had no belongings with us there was a lot of smoke in our flat as I got out of my front door there was

01:38:57 as I got out of my front door there was no smoke and the landing was clear I did ask my husband to get back into our flat to get my mobile phone but he was unable to do so because of the smoke we closed the door to our flat we knocked on all

01:39:08 the door to our flat we knocked on all the neighbors doors flat 155 did not answer the door flat 154 opened the door one male a flat one five one a female who lives on her own from the door she came out flat one five

01:39:20 from the door she came out flat one five two had one female and two young children there they came out of the door but I didn't see them leave in flat one five three there was one woman with two children I don't remember if they answered there is a smoke alarm in the

01:39:32 answered there is a smoke alarm in the lift lobby but it wasn't ringing we then ran to the stairs and I saw some people coming up the stairs shouting fire fire as we made our way down the stairs there were a lot of people on the staircase

01:39:43 were a lot of people on the staircase panicking they were screaming and shouting and a lot of confusion no one knew whether fire was I saw two Farman coming up the stairs they had breathing masks on I did not see anyone fall over on the stairs the

01:39:56 see anyone fall over on the stairs the stairs are very narrow for the number of residents in the block I feel there should be at least two staircases as I go to the bottom of the stairs the door was open I note from the CCTV footage in the downstairs there is a note saying

01:40:07 the downstairs there is a note saying 131 a.m. and the CCTV picture for both

01:40:20 131 a.m. and the CCTV picture for both Shaheed and Sayid armoured are timed at about 1:30 - we then have the statement of Zakir their son Shahid and Sayed his

01:40:36 of Zakir their son Shahid and Sayed his son who was born after they'd moved into Grenfell tower mr. chairman and lived with them until 2012 his statement zakir

01:40:47 with them until 2012 his statement zakir statement is at iws three eight nine it stated that the nine thought there's a date of the 9th of May and there was a

01:40:59 date of the 9th of May and there was a signature on page 4 also over the date of the 9th of May and under a statement of truth again like the others his statement will stand in full as his evidence to the inquiry and be taken

01:41:10 evidence to the inquiry and be taken into account accordingly and there is I think nothing else I needed to take out of that statement and read specifically into the record his exit time is later than his parents he joined his parents

01:41:22 than his parents he joined his parents outside the tower and approximately at 2:00 a.m.

01:41:26 2:00 a.m. and he wasn't in the tower at the time he joined his parents having driven across London to get to them

01:41:42 mr. chairman I'm I'm confident having checked with my team that there are no other statements for me to read in to the record today good thank you very much is that it for today well mr.

01:41:54 much is that it for today well mr. chairman it is I'm afraid we haven't taken up the full day but I'm sure there's plenty of work for people to be getting on with in the time left I'm sure there is and for those who may not

01:42:06 sure there is and for those who may not have been here yesterday I think you explained that we did have a witness whom we were yes hoping to call this afternoon but unfortunately that's not possible

01:42:16 possible and so we've run short today that's right

01:42:19 right well that can't be helped so we'll break now and resume at 10 o'clock on Monday I think that's right when we thought you

01:42:30 think that's right when we thought you have some more witnesses from inside the tub indeed very good mr. shame - thank you thank you very much 10 o'clock on Monday