London Fire Brigade firefighters give evidence about their experiences during the Grenfell Tower fire, including coordination challenges, rescue attempts, and the limitations faced by crews.
00:00:09 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing but still on firefighter evidence and I think this change is going to examine the next week yeah thank you very much sir I'd like to call
00:00:20 thank you very much sir I'd like to call watch manager Thomas for now thank you
00:00:46 I just have to be patient to me I do solemnly sincerely truly I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare I shall give shall be the
00:01:00 affirm declare I shall give shall be the truth the whole truth
00:01:05 thank you very much do sit down make yourself comfortable
00:01:13 name for the record Thomas George for now Thank You mr. Finnell and first of all thank you very much for coming to the inquiry to say to assist us and give me your evidence it's really appreciated and secondly my
00:01:24 really appreciated and secondly my questions are intended to be short and simple but if they're not then please do to say if you type the rephrase or repeat it finally if you'd like a break at any point of course also please just
00:01:35 at any point of course also please just say and now in the folder in front of you you should have your witness statement
00:01:39 statement it'll also come up on the screen that's to your right and the documents director Paul will take you to the relevant parts but you have the paper coffee should you need it and that witness statement has
00:01:52 need it and that witness statement has the reference to have to read into the record met four zeros eight zero to two and and it's say to the 20th of December 2017 and is that your witness statement
00:02:03 2017 and is that your witness statement mr. Pennell I believe so yes and if you read it recently you haven't read it with me no problem we'll take you through it and are you happy though to confirm the contents of it are true yes
00:02:14 confirm the contents of it are true yes thank you and then can I take you to your record of actions which for the record it's met four zeros five three one six it's up on the screen there is
00:02:26 one six it's up on the screen there is that something that you recognize as being your document yes do you remember when you wrote that no do you write it
00:02:38 when you wrote that no do you write it soon after the fire a long time quite recently
00:02:47 I think it was done the week after thank you very much and you happy to confirm that the contents of that are true yes thank you very much
00:02:58 thank you very much finally then you have three other exhibits that I'd like to just read into the record the references are met three zeros one seven zero three five met three zeros of one seven zero three six
00:03:09 three zeros of one seven zero three six met three zeros one seven zero three three and we'll come to those shortly and finally then before we move on to the proper questions can I ask you mr. for now are you happy
00:03:20 can I ask you mr. for now are you happy for the contents of your witness statement record of actions and exhibits to stand as your evidence to this inquiry yes thank you very much and moving on then can I just confirm that
00:03:31 moving on then can I just confirm that on the night of the fire and you were the watch manager at Tooting red watch yes is that still your position that is yes thank you and there's a right to say that you joined the lfb towards the end
00:03:43 that you joined the lfb towards the end of 1995 that's correct and during your career you have carried out commander control roles on the Wembley commands unit and on the Fulham command unit but your command support
00:03:54 command unit but your command support qualifications have since lapse that's right yeah thank you now turning to the night of the fire and is it right to say that you mobilised on Hotel 351 the Tooting pump bladder appliance that's right yep thank you and
00:04:07 appliance that's right yep thank you and we have from your witness statement at page two the second paragraph and that at approximately 1:30 in the morning and you had a call to stand by to
00:04:19 you had a call to stand by to Hammersmith is that right that's right and in fact you say on page 2 of your witness statement that you and your crew started to drive towards Hammersmith before you're actually assigned to the scene that's right yeah thank you and
00:04:32 scene that's right yeah thank you and then just looking at some of the timings we have a record but I didn't take you to it is that you're actually assigned to the incident at 0 to 0-5 that morning you were stages 2 at 0 to 10 and you
00:04:46 you were stages 2 at 0 to 10 and you were actually on scene at zero to 27 in the morning that accord with your recollection sounds about right yet thank you very much I'm going to focus on the the two
00:04:57 much I'm going to focus on the the two main tasks that you carried out that night so the first task as I understand from your witness statement that you did after you arrived on scene and checked in and was that you're asked to go to the FSG commands unit to assist group
00:05:10 the FSG commands unit to assist group manager Goodall is that right that's right yeah in your statement we have someone who guards but we write anything it's good oh yes yes lovely thank you and how long do you think it took between going from your appliance
00:05:23 took between going from your appliance to sustain it was a few minutes walk from where we parked up in Bromley Road to get to that command you know initially went to I think the main
00:05:34 initially went to I think the main command you knew the message I had when I was at my applied to that was that they needed spare officers Afghan journey so I went to the main one first and they told me to go to the fire survival gardens one so it would have
00:05:46 survival gardens one so it would have taken more than five minutes and do you remember where that fast fire guards command unit ports located vaguely ever no not the name of the road but by
00:05:58 no not the name of the road but by looking at map I could probably point you out okay so let's just go to your map then it's your last exhibit it's met three zeros one seven zero three three that the map you drew yep it's just
00:06:10 that the map you drew yep it's just coming up on the screen as well for you and was the right hand side there's to see use that had been marked that cross with a circle around it we've got the main to you in the FSG see you just on
00:06:21 main to you in the FSG see you just on the other side of the screen please Paul yeah and so it looks there from your map that the earth is juicy use on grenfell Road is that right now looks yes that's
00:06:32 Road is that right now looks yes that's right and you remember that being cu7 I don't remember if it was don't member the number on your property and when you arrived at the commands unit and
00:06:43 arrived at the commands unit and actually taking you to something that you've said just before you arrived in fact and you say on page four of your witness statement that you were flitting between channels 1 and 10 and is that
00:06:54 between channels 1 and 10 and is that something that you were doing on the way to the command unit yeah pretty much on the
00:06:59 the on the way to the incident up to the point of the command unit the first five ago on the command unit yeah and you say that channel ones for the fire ground channel 10 is the command unit officers channel by listening to both channels I
00:07:10 channel by listening to both channels I was trying to get a bigger picture of what was going on and so first of all just helped us which radio were you listening to you well both I mean I've got them I didn't get the message about
00:07:22 got them I didn't get the message about needing officers the command unit from my radio probably because I was hopping between two channels one of my colleagues told me when I returned to the fire engine first of all after booking in that they needed spare
00:07:33 booking in that they needed spare officers your handheld radio it wasn't handheld radio yes and then and you say you're trying to get a bigger picture of what was going on and how how were you able to do that um just because the fire
00:07:46 able to do that um just because the fire ground radio is more for sort of the operational side of it the Lord towards the people actually on the ground whereas channel 10 tended to be more the command you know crews would use that
00:07:57 command you know crews would use that screen and cope with each other sometimes senior officers as well so by going between both channels like a bill of a little bit more of a picture of what was going on and why did you want to do that um just because the scene was
00:08:08 to do that um just because the scene was very chaotic there was a obviously a very very dynamic and just listening to one channel it seemed it's very quiet channel one I think because maybe it was overloaded so I just had to get a bit
00:08:19 overloaded so I just had to get a bit more the picture can you tell us not really much walking between the fine gin and the command units there was a lot of the members of the public land gauge but
00:08:30 the members of the public land gauge but as well so I didn't pick much information up at the time and I don't call any of the information anyway so just moving then on to you arriving at cu7
00:08:39 cu7 the FSG commands unit and you say on page four that you saw information coming in over the radio from control yeah
00:08:48 yeah can you elaborate any more as to what you saw who was on the radio for example or anything else look at the right section
00:08:58 there should be the last view rather impatient right now I think I was referring me referring to the
00:09:09 referring me referring to the information that was on the whiteboard and the command you know I didn't don't remember witnessing or hearing any information coming out with radio directly it's just what was on the whiteboard when you arrived from the command unit do you recognize any of the
00:09:21 command unit do you recognize any of the other officers that were there yes there was a couple of I remember I don't recall their names but I've worked with them before it's one generic familiar to you yes yes on a mobile phone do you remember okay
00:09:35 on a mobile phone do you remember okay and then turns to this whiteboard that you saw you say on page four I'm in the last paragraph and this information was then written on a whiteboard and was similar to a spreadsheet layout the
00:09:46 similar to a spreadsheet layout the information was on potential survivors then further on in the paragraph you go on to say that good or wanted all this information that was written on the whiteboard taken to the Survival Guide
00:09:58 whiteboard taken to the Survival Guide in this unit it was situated closer to grandfather hour now first of all was the survival guidance unit a phrase that you heard watch manager Goodall say no
00:10:09 you heard watch manager Goodall say no no this is the first time I've heard that used so in your statement where you've referred that being the unit at the base of the tower yes sorry that's not something that you heard from good
00:10:20 not something that you heard from good fruit magic at all no not that I recall nice how did he describe it um I'm not sure the exact wording he said that there was a group of people or I'm like that's where me but maybe where the unit
00:10:31 that's where me but maybe where the unit phrases come from working at the base of the tower with the first five guidance information what was the briefing that he gave you he needed to get a copy of the information he had on the whiteboard
00:10:42 the information he had on the whiteboard to them and transfer that information into the building to where the entry control was so cadets get people up to the relevant plants do you know if there was a communication link already set up
00:10:54 was a communication link already set up with those people at the base of the tower
00:10:56 tower I assume there was but I wasn't sure if there was another did you know any more about the purpose taking the information to the people at the bottom of the towers it I well it
00:11:11 the bottom of the towers it I well it was it was theme from that the information on the whiteboard was the current up-to-date list of all the people that were recorded as unable to leave their flats and I assume that that update list updated list had to get to
00:11:23 update list updated list had to get to the tower I assumed that had some information already the list that he had on the command unit was the most recent one if I can just take you to a photo which may or may not be what you saw and
00:11:36 which may or may not be what you saw and this is a photo that was taken on group management manager a good old phone and as we understand from your statement that's something that you witnessed him doing is that right yes so if I can ask pull our documents director to take it
00:11:48 pull our documents director to take it to met three zeros one five nine three zero there's going to come up on screen a few now is that something that you
00:11:59 a few now is that something that you recognize saying yes and if I could ask Paul to then put up another picture side by side and it's hopefully the extension of that board its met triple zero five
00:12:10 of that board its met triple zero five one five nine three four so is that the totality of this whiteboard that you saw do you remember it looks insane yes and we have reason to believe that these photos were taken
00:12:22 to believe that these photos were taken the left one at 2:59 and the right one at 3 o'clock in the morning does that accord with your recollection I'm not sure the exact time dice yes now in terms of the information
00:12:34 dice yes now in terms of the information on this whiteboard did group manager go to explain it any more detail to you well he explained the excuse me how have it laid out the flat
00:12:45 excuse me how have it laid out the flat numbers of the floor numbers the number of people who his priority how did he say he was a priority what did he say about that um just by excuse me you know mention that children were obviously all
00:13:01 mention that children were obviously all the people with the disabled you know less likely to be able to move themselves and would need further assistance to get out can you see on the left hand
00:13:09 left hand the right hand photo in fact we have a red asterisks at the end of some of the lines was that explained to you know if
00:13:21 lines was that explained to you know if it was I don't recall and in terms of then what you were to do with this you were to take the photo to the guys at
00:13:33 were to take the photo to the guys at the base of the tower is that right that's well yet take that information to the where the first of our guidance the team were working sort of simulate that information into what they were doing at this point did group manager go to
00:13:44 this point did group manager go to explain the FSG communication system to you what I mean by that is how the FSG information was being taken from this command unit and reaching the bridgehead ultimately I think he did yeah because I
00:13:59 ultimately I think he did yeah because I don't let me discussing that with anybody when I worked with the first of all guns team on the ground so yeah the process was this information was coming from control being phoned in obviously
00:14:10 from control being phoned in obviously by the residents the information is then to be taken down to the first five guns team who will then relaying out towards the entry control in the bridgehead do you know why there wasn't just a direct
00:14:21 you know why there wasn't just a direct line of communication from the command unit to the bridgehead why there was effectively this middle group of people I don't know I don't know if it was down to the radios radio traffic being too
00:14:33 to the radios radio traffic being too heavy or communication breakdown I'm not sure did he tell you anything about people writing information the same ethnicity information on a wall in the lobby before getting to the bridgehead know me to mention it just turn you back
00:14:46 know me to mention it just turn you back to the photos but I can ask you to look at the right hand photo and can you see in the very far right hand corner we see the end of the whiteboard you've been referring to in the beginning of a new whiteboard with a grid system what looks
00:14:58 whiteboard with a grid system what looks like still being set up with numbers in the
00:15:01 the left-hand corner and is that something that you observed when you went on to the commands units I don't really well
00:15:14 the commands units I don't really well no now I see it may have been that they were trying to tidy up the information they had on the white board into the more sort of manageable format do you remember there being any other information on that white board at that
00:15:26 information on that white board at that time except for the numbers that we see no finally then in terms of where you were to go with the information did group manager go to explain who is in
00:15:37 group manager go to explain who is in charge or who to take the information to he mentioned there was a watch manager I believe it is watch manager Sadler yeah he told me he was running the team at
00:15:48 he told me he was running the team at the base of the tower or near the base of the tower and finally then before we take to your evidence as to what happened when you went there can I ask you did you ever think to just run the
00:16:00 you did you ever think to just run the photo that he'd given you on his phone directly to the bridge head instead of going to watch manager Sadler no do you ever think to perhaps just radio the
00:16:12 ever think to perhaps just radio the information directly to the bridge head no I mean it was the flow of information was explained and I decided to follow it along I didn't wanna freelance and take it straight up to the tower there moving
00:16:26 it straight up to the tower there moving on then - and where you say you went to watch - after at the base of the tower and do you remember where he was set up at the base of the tower yeah somewhere
00:16:39 at the base of the tower yeah somewhere around the southeast corner I believe under a sort of walkway sheltering started from the debris and they were on the floor at the time filling out paperwork do you remember he was set up
00:16:51 paperwork do you remember he was set up on bins or a carb on it that would it the bins were afterwards I think after a while we were all processing the information we moved it to the top of a large bin to use as a makeshift desk
00:17:04 large bin to use as a makeshift desk and did you talk to watch man to the saddle Oh watch manager sadly when you got there probably yeah there's a lot of conversations when you first went to watch manager sadly he was working on
00:17:16 watch manager sadly he was working on the carbonyl is he I don't recall a carp on it I think it was just the floor all right but not on the bins no no the bins were after and then they moved to the bins
00:17:25 bins yes so do you recall what conversation you had watched - at that when you got to him just not specifically but I told
00:17:39 to him just not specifically but I told him that I was there with the further information updated list of all the fire survival guidance calls and just updated
00:17:50 survival guidance calls and just updated the mr. what information I had and find out which information they already had and added to the list of people they had is that what he told you to do no no I
00:18:01 is that what he told you to do no no I mean they prove everybody on that on the floor in that doing the first five guns was very busy so I just kind of pitched in and we'll get it together then in
00:18:14 in and we'll get it together then in terms of the system the water manager Sadler had set up and did you recognize any of the other firefighters that were assisting him no and then you say I believe it is on page five that's your
00:18:25 believe it is on page five that's your role well you essentially you were calling out the information you had on the mobile phone to a firefighter who wrote it on another whiteboard do you remember doing that it wasn't on another whiteboard there
00:18:36 it wasn't on another whiteboard there was some they were using message pad I believe just writing out the individual flats and how many people have had any on each one so he had copies of that we already had and the top copy would go up
00:18:48 already had and the top copy would go up into the building so when you say message pad is that the control information form that the quadruple code form with different colors that we've been saying no it was just a standard message pad I think it
00:18:59 just a standard message pad I think it was the one excuse me they use on the front of the four inches just to write standard messages but I guess that's all I had to hand it says a form that has duplicate copies so we could keep one in the top copy would go away
00:19:11 the top copy would go away so it had four copies and you would write from the top copy and it would transfer the information to the other copies no it's just two copies just you yeah it's just dude lookin for Mia okay you remember what color was the top copy
00:19:22 you remember what color was the top copy once white yeah the white was the top copy yellow was a bottom on okay and then in terms of the information that you gave we shouting out to the firefighter um yes probably yeah it was
00:19:37 firefighter um yes probably yeah it was very loud so we would have been shouting each of the problem and did you have any process for ensuring that the information that had already been received from the commands unit didn't
00:19:48 received from the commands unit didn't get duplicated essentially yeah because they only had the system set up where they kept the the yellow copies of that form so they knew which ones had already gone up which had already been sort of the information had already gone so we
00:20:01 the information had already gone so we were verifying when I read read out a particular flat whether or not that information had already gone up to the bridgehead or whether it was new and then had to go straight away are you saying your witness statement that that information was then run to the
00:20:13 information was then run to the bridgehead is that yes that's right yeah was any bit communicated by radio there was a little bit of radio communication throughout that period but it was very intermittent and there's more
00:20:24 intermittent and there's more information coming back that I remember from the bridgehead rather than to it so do you remember any of the specific bits of information you had on that white board on in that photo actually being
00:20:35 board on in that photo actually being communicated via radio to some of them on the other end no nothing specific and then in terms of that information and how how did it go to the bridgehead ie
00:20:46 how how did it go to the bridgehead ie did it all go in that long list in one go or did it just go sort of per flat number or per a couple of flat numbers as soon as we had a runner as in someone available to physically take the sheets
00:20:57 available to physically take the sheets of paper they would take the latest block whether it be one piece of paper or six or ten was a new flat number written on each new form yes
00:21:10 you mention in your record of actions we don't need to go to it but you say that you transferred the information onto the relevant forms and prioritize them yes what kind of system the prioritization
00:21:22 what kind of system the prioritization did you implement I'm not exactly sure but it probably would've been along the lines of again people who are very elderly or very young or disabled in any
00:21:34 elderly or very young or disabled in any way that they were less able to get out by themselves and we need further assistance rather than just being escorted for example some I actually have to be carried you say probably do you think that is what you did yeah I
00:21:45 you think that is what you did yeah I think I think it's probably we did here and in terms of that prioritization did you write that on the forms or did the firefighter assistant you write that on the forms I never made that call which was a priority I was just handing the
00:21:56 was a priority I was just handing the information over and I believe it was I believe it was the watch manager watch mentor Sadler who was kind of prioritizing because he had the overview all the information in front of them community and in terms of if we think
00:22:07 community and in terms of if we think back to that list again it had quite detailed information on there had flat number floor number and number of residents and then some extra detail as well as they were pregnant for example so did you ask for all of that
00:22:20 example so did you ask for all of that information to be put onto a form yeah all the information was transferred yeah and you say on page six of your statement if you could go to it for me pool
00:22:30 pool it's the third paragraph
00:22:36 you say there that over a period of time the area was not so hectic and we started to get some sort of semblance orders together but we could start to see more clearly how many people there were still to rescue the picture that
00:22:47 were still to rescue the picture that was emerging was that a lot of these people were not going to make it out how did that become clear to you it's the radio communications I was mentioning earlier came back from the tower we may have been the runners themselves were
00:22:59 have been the runners themselves were throwing the sheets back and forth that yeah they've just said that they were firefighters weren't getting above the 12th floor at that time but one April 2 because of the heat I think do you
00:23:10 because of the heat I think do you remember what time in the evening that was that you were told that no I don't know at the time and was that a message that was just relate to you by the runners or also relate over the radio it
00:23:22 runners or also relate over the radio it could have been either to be honest I don't remember exactly but it was while I was working on the Father gardens with the team on the ground and at this point were you still shouting out the flat numbers and the floor numbers are we doing something else no we were still
00:23:33 doing something else no we were still processing the information yeah and did that information the fact that firefighters weren't able to get above the 12th or 13th floor did that change your approach in any way to what you were doing no because the situation could change
00:23:45 no because the situation could change one minute that could only be getting to the 12th and they might be able to get up to the 15th or maybe even lower so yeah we kept going with the same system and just a few more questions are on
00:23:56 and just a few more questions are on your wall there and you say page back but we don't need to take you to it and is that you were also at the same time receiving information from members of the public is that right yes and how are
00:24:08 the public is that right yes and how are you processing that information we were starting to include it into the farce of our Gardens information that was going up to the bridgehead obviously I hadn't
00:24:20 up to the bridgehead obviously I hadn't come through control and it was information that the command unit at the time didn't have but it was information that needed to get up to the to the bridgehead and you also say and that you
00:24:32 bridgehead and you also say and that you had information that you were receiving from control through our radios which was written down on pieces paper was that another line of communication that you were getting FSG messages similar to the first one it's
00:24:45 messages similar to the first one it's coming from control through to the FSG command unit and then he was radiating down to us finds it wasn't control the control room directly contact you out the base of the tower fine if I can then
00:24:58 the base of the tower fine if I can then just take you to one of two of your exhibits and the first one I'd like to take you to is met at triple zero one seven zero three five as I understand
00:25:09 seven zero three five as I understand from your witness statement this was and something that was written whilst you were with watch when I just a blur in the team at the base of the tower is that right yes and if I could just ask
00:25:20 that right yes and if I could just ask actually Paul if you could go back a page to page one for me
00:25:29 and so is that a piece of notepaper yes and do you know where that information came from that you put on there I mean
00:25:41 came from that you put on there I mean is that your handwriting actually it's my handwriting here yes sorry and third do you know where that information came from no I think I would
00:25:52 information came from no I think I would have written the watch manager Sadler's name my name is I was given that information on the command unit by the group manager initially the rest of you are done I don't know for sure that's a
00:26:04 are done I don't know for sure that's a piece of paper in your notebook is it it is yes not the ones would have a duplicate copy no no this does the smallest just six one personal notebook yes
00:26:14 yes and can you help us any further with the numbers that we have at the top there I think it's one two one five two one does that mean anything to you no not
00:26:27 does that mean anything to you no not that can we call it and we also have what looks like Louisa - Silvo at the bridgehead written on there yeah you know why that was written on there know him presumably cause it's above the
00:26:39 know him presumably cause it's above the watch commander up when I was being given a briefing by the group manager on the command unit I was just writing down information as to who is where we have won 8-3
00:26:49 won 8-3 and it looks to be 421 is that right yeah but aside for you have writing five people at 193 22nd floor eleven people one three three sixteenth floor two persons um do you know where you got
00:27:01 persons um do you know where you got that information from sorry to keep asking the same question no it's fine um I don't know for sure I suspect it may have been that as it was on my notebook Otakon that may have been the information coming from the command unit
00:27:12 information coming from the command unit yeah first of all cards one in addition to the photo with all the white ball stuffing but that's it that's it a bit of a guess on the Friday do you think how were you getting information from
00:27:23 how were you getting information from the client were you on your radio is there a runner coming directly to ya probably the radio it may have been an unlikely but I don't think there was a runner coming from the command unit but if I was gonna write any information down it would have been on that notepad and do you know why there are ticks at
00:27:36 and do you know why there are ticks at the beginning of the first two lines not for sure it may have been that we'd already had down on our list do you
00:27:47 already had down on our list do you remember what happened to this information did it get passed on to anyone on tour to the bridgehead I can't be sure babe it would have been if I'd written it if I'd written it down in his court it would have gone up to the
00:27:59 court it would have gone up to the bridgehead yeah and forgive me for asking about how would it have gone would it have gone on this piece of note paper one or on a different piece it would have gone on the duplicate forms have been talking about they've been transferred onto those okay
00:28:10 they've been transferred onto those okay and then moving on to the next page if you could pull and we've got there at 347 114 adults 35 kids and then flat 92
00:28:22 347 114 adults 35 kids and then flat 92 three people rescued so the top half I understand from your statement that 347 is the time you think you approximately left the unit at bottom of
00:28:33 approximately left the unit at bottom of the tower possibly yeah and do you know where you've got that information from I believe I counted out how many people we
00:28:44 believe I counted out how many people we had on the sheets as stock so those people still to rescue was it and the yes okay and then in terms of the
00:28:55 yes okay and then in terms of the information at the bottom flat 92 do you know where you got that information from
00:29:02 no that may have been later on when I was trying to collect lists of people that had been rescued from their flats to build up a picture which flats were still remaining but I'm not sure exactly
00:29:13 still remaining but I'm not sure exactly and this information did you did you take anywhere did you use anyway the bottom section if that's what I was doing collecting it I would have
00:29:24 I was doing collecting it I would have fed it back to the command unit but the later stages but the top bit I I don't remember if I pass that back to the command unit I may have done you've collected there the numbers about some
00:29:36 collected there the numbers about some children you think is still to be rescued were you asked to do that by anyone no I don't think it was it's just to keep a list of what we were looking at okay
00:29:47 at okay and then if I can take you to another photo maybe something can help me with it maybe that you can't but it's an exhibit we have to a DSC O'Laughlin statement and it's met triple zero one
00:30:01 statement and it's met triple zero one five seven zero five it'll come up on the screen if it could just be turned around there we go we understand this is a whiteboard that was in cu7 but we'll
00:30:14 a whiteboard that was in cu7 but we'll have to have that confirmed and we can see there that there is timestamp in the top right hand corner at 347 and then it looks to be a hundred and twenty seven
00:30:25 looks to be a hundred and twenty seven adults thirty-eight kids now do you member seeing this whiteboard at all not therefore you're able to help us in any way why the information there documented as being we think written at
00:30:37 documented as being we think written at 347 is any different - sorry is different to what we have on your piece of note paper um yeah possibly I mean when I was first given the information to take to the
00:30:48 given the information to take to the FASTA file guidance team from the command unit I was told that there was a possibility that people may have moved flats so you may get a number of people reported stuck in one flat and then sometime later they may have moved to
00:31:00 sometime later they may have moved to another flat so you end up getting instead for for example you get a people so that's why why probably the numbers are out
00:31:09 and but is this something that you had sort of spoken to anyone on the command unit about I don't think I had no no and just finally then when you left watch manager Sadler and his team and as
00:31:22 watch manager Sadler and his team and as far as you aware were they still operating that system or had they been asked to sort of close it down by anyone no they were still operating um once I've gotten through my list of stuff in the white board from the far survivor
00:31:33 the white board from the far survivor Gardens command unit they got a check they call the information down and it's I returned to the command unit did you do anything else whilst you were with watch manager Sadler and the crew at the
00:31:44 watch manager Sadler and the crew at the base of the tower we take on any other role no other role there was a few interactions with members of the public but now that the role was carried out should we understand that your role in
00:31:56 should we understand that your role in relation to the work that manager said that his day was really just to take the information on the white board from the command unit and feed it into what he
00:32:07 command unit and feed it into what he was doing
00:32:08 was doing yes and once that had been done you then went to do something else yeah I mean I helped out where I could but as soon as they had enough people and I was essentially despair I returned to come
00:32:20 essentially despair I returned to come on yet and then just moving to my last topic which is the other task we understand you're assigned to do that night which was to manage the casualty
00:32:31 night which was to manage the casualty handling unit is that right at the casualty handling area yes the area and who asked you to do that it's the Crippler sorry the group manager good along the command unit again what was your briefing
00:32:43 your briefing I got Dan he asked me to find he knew that there was one casualty in handling area in the leisure centre he understood that was another one he asked me to go and find it and take charge of it and
00:32:54 and find it and take charge of it and start collating information on who any information on which residents have been taken to hospital any information I could find on people had been gots out the flower feel they were looking to build up a picture then of which flats
00:33:06 build up a picture then of which flats were cleared if you like and did you understand when he gave you that briefing that he had already obtained some that information all that this was actually a new bit of information that he now need someone to obtain for him I think they
00:33:19 someone to obtain for him I think they were they've got some information Isis I think that they were looking to build up a picture of a complete picture the tower and how soon after you arrived back on the command unit where you asked to do this and you went off and did it
00:33:31 to do this and you went off and did it straightaway on page seven of your witness statement if I could ask pool to go to it it's at the bottom of the second paragraph and you've described the system and then in the last line and you say as you can imagine there was a
00:33:43 you say as you can imagine there was a lot of duplication and information on someone getting out of the tower may not necessarily reach the different commands units and so just focusing on the fact that there was a lot of duplication can you just explain for us what were the
00:33:54 you just explain for us what were the issues that you were facing when you're doing this task in terms of gathering the information well when I turned to the casualty handling area there was um there was a lot of people all over the
00:34:06 there was a lot of people all over the place they were there were some residents had been taken to hospital some were just lying around you know being the scene to violence and of medical staff some just walked to
00:34:19 medical staff some just walked to friends houses so gathering everybody in one place and finding information was um was quite tricky especially a lot of members of the public as well the area hadn't been cordoned off so I basically to ask everybody I saw if they knew and
00:34:31 to ask everybody I saw if they knew and everyone had a story so this is quite laborious task how did you manage the fact that you were getting lots of duplication of information just wrote down the information I was given if from and then
00:34:43 information I was given if from and then fed it back to the command unit and kind of relied on mentor if they'd already had it they we had it I believe in your statement you say you were feeding the information back to the command unit on the radio is that right that's right
00:34:54 the radio is that right that's right yeah and which channel was that down and then further down on page 7 and it's there if your reference if you'd like it but just to summarize and the last
00:35:05 but just to summarize and the last paragraph you say that you saw a firefighter standing by nearby to you and you asked him to assist you is that right that's right do you remember who that firefighter was don't remember his name though and what was the briefing
00:35:17 name though and what was the briefing that you gave him um basically along the lines of I've got this task to do I need to ask all these people you know information that if they know any information about residents
00:35:28 information about residents and she needed help to do that well I think I might have actually given him the task of no I can't be sure exactly general gist of it did you ask him to
00:35:39 general gist of it did you ask him to help you collect information about people who had evacuated or being rescued from the tower yes and then I'm if we can take you to an exhibit its metrical zero one seven zero
00:35:50 exhibit its metrical zero one seven zero three six as I understand from your statement these are pieces of note paper that you would give them by that firefighter is that right yep that's right and when he gave these pieces of
00:36:02 right and when he gave these pieces of paper to you did he tell you anything about what he'd written there he may have done I don't recall it now but I would have fed that back to the command unit the information
00:36:13 unit the information what was your sort of understanding of what this information told you these were the people that had been removed from the tower and you say you fed that
00:36:27 from the tower and you say you fed that back to the command unit so again was that - group manager Goodall yes on the radio channel and you were communicating to him that they were is it that they were they been rescued or they had left
00:36:38 were they been rescued or they had left the building yes okay and now if we look at the top note rainier bream and the bottom right hand note Steven power we understand in
00:36:50 hand note Steven power we understand in fact that both of these people and Ronny Abraham's family didn't actually make it out of the tower and and what my question is is do you know how this confusion could have arisen between what
00:37:02 confusion could have arisen between what you told that firefighter to do and what he actually ends up doing which seems to be writing down names of people who were still trapped in the tower
00:37:18 now it may be that the these notes were actually people that were still in the tower I can't remember exactly I would have get near the task to find out who's still in the tower and who got out so
00:37:29 still in the tower and who got out so maybe it wasn't just people that were at left the building also details of who was still in there but where he would have gotten information from them I'm not sure and it sounds so you're not sure now if you were told definitely
00:37:40 sure now if you were told definitely that they were survivors or people who were still trapped but which whichever it was where they were trapped or I'd left the building it would have been fed back in terms of your task in in
00:37:52 back in terms of your task in in collating the information in the casualty handling area were you aware of any organized attempts to record survivors and who had made it out of the tower so any other organized attempts really there was a lot of ambulance and
00:38:08 really there was a lot of ambulance and paramedic staff around there was a lot of debris from where they'd been working so and sort of his signs I guess that there's a lot of casualties that have been taken and then removed to hospital
00:38:20 been taken and then removed to hospital or other medical places to be seen obviously that information but then would have gone so there's whether or not they had a record of it I had no way of finding out there were too many people moving around to
00:38:31 were too many people moving around to try and get all of there and nobody seemed to have anybody in charge in that area at the time and just finally and my last question is about your system of recording this information how did you
00:38:42 recording this information how did you actually record what the information was that you were gathering how did you record that again we'd been on my personal notepad and then fed back to the command unit on the radio maybe used to run and once or twice and the
00:38:53 to run and once or twice and the information you've gathered I believe and you say in your statement it was number of survivors flattening the floor number is that right generally yeah yeah whatever information came back from the
00:39:04 whatever information came back from the firefighters are helping me did you ask about any other information for example if that person knew there were still people remaining in the same flat where they had been rescued or they have escaped from I don't recall exactly and
00:39:15 escaped from I don't recall exactly and finally do we have any record of that information so we don't seem to have it in your exhibit so that's something you handed no I don't know if I well I don't know where the end of that information
00:39:26 know where the end of that information was kept well thank you very much mr. Finnell those are all the questions I have but I'm going to ask the Chamber's we have a five minute break to see if there are any other questions arising from the call participants so yes but
00:39:39 from the call participants so yes but sometimes happens that there are further questions that need to be asked so we'll have five minute break now please don't talk to anyone about the residence while you're out of the room and we'll come
00:39:50 you're out of the room and we'll come back at 10:15 and see other lands lies
00:40:06 right 1015 min please
00:40:23 you
00:41:42 you
00:46:12 well this James let's position yes of course
00:46:33 thank you I think just a few more passes mr. Spencer yes
00:46:40 it's just
00:46:45 [Music]
00:46:54 so just taking you to the second paragraph on page six it's sometimes during my time in yet city near the tower
00:46:59 tower I wrote down figures on my own pad of paper and kept it numbers say one room for adults and 35 kids from memory I think that was how many potential survivors there were still to rescue in the tower
00:47:10 the tower the time I wrote was the zero 347 I also wrote flat nine two to three people rescued on the other side of the piece of paper I wrote name's Louise de Silva she has something to do with the bridgehead but I had no idea why I wrote
00:47:22 bridgehead but I had no idea why I wrote that also Paul Sadler he was the watch manager that I reported to I also wrote flat 183 and then floor 21 five persons flat 193 floor 22 11 persons flat one
00:47:34 flat 193 floor 22 11 persons flat one three three four sixteen two persons and now that was the piece of note paper that we were looking at there was looking at both sides a bit you remember
00:47:45 looking at both sides a bit you remember if that information was on the same bit of paper but on either side I don't remember
00:47:50 remember I'm afraid and are you able to help us with whether everything you see on that piece of paper was written at 3:47 would help to
00:48:01 paper was written at 3:47 would help to go back to that I don't think everything would have been written at 3:47 then the names initially would have been probably written when I was given a briefing at the command unit which should have been earlier when you were working with watch
00:48:13 earlier when you were working with watch management's at lurin and that crew there were you at any point when you were there taking information about people who were exiting but how all being rescued I can't be sure I don't
00:48:28 being rescued I can't be sure I don't think so but I can't be sure if we did and then something else I'd like to ask you about is again referring to that piece of paper and did you take it upon
00:48:40 piece of paper and did you take it upon yourself to make sure that for example flat 193 if that was your understanding of people to be rescued that was then information that was acted upon only act
00:48:54 information that was acted upon only act to them as far as we write the information down and sent it off to the bridgehead that was as far as we got and did you know whose role it was to
00:49:05 and did you know whose role it was to make sure that a crew was sent to for example flat one nine three to rescue the residents there no I don't know who was up there and then when you went back to see you seven and spoke with a group
00:49:16 to see you seven and spoke with a group Manship Goodall did you give him any kind of debriefing as to your role your tasks that you had been doing at the base of the tower no I don't remember if
00:49:27 base of the tower no I don't remember if I gave him any sort of briefing to that effect did you at any point ask him any further details about any of the flats that were on that list in that photo that you took to the base of the tower and you asked him about what had
00:49:39 and you asked him about what had happened to them for example no I didn't ask did you ask him if he was checking up if they had been rescued the teams had been sent up there if we had a conversation about I don't recall it but
00:49:50 conversation about I don't recall it but I don't believe that I asked was that something that was part of your role that evening no my role was just to take the information from the command unit to the files father Gardens team and feed it upwards into the bridgehead that was
00:50:02 it upwards into the bridgehead that was basically it well thank you very much mr. for now I don't have any further questions for you can you just help me with one thing do you have any sense of how long it took
00:50:13 you have any sense of how long it took you to carry out the task in other words to get the information from the command unit take it to mr. Sadler feed it into what he was doing and get back to the command you I'm afraid not now the time
00:50:26 command you I'm afraid not now the time is a bit of a blur I'm not surprised well we understand that the photo with that information was taken at 2:59 three
00:50:38 that information was taken at 2:59 three o'clock but did you immediately leave c7 after that photo was taken yes and your understanding is that you left watch manager Sadler at 347 when you wrote that time on that piece of
00:50:49 you wrote that time on that piece of paper is that right I don't know if that's the time I left him on up I can't be sure so we know your brawl started at least around 3 o'clock or just thereafter but
00:51:01 around 3 o'clock or just thereafter but you're not sure exactly or time you left no okay thank you very much that was helpful
00:51:05 helpful well no more kisses then thank you very much indeed mr. Finnell for coming to give us her evidence it's very helpful to hear your account of what you were doing that evening and you're now free to go thank you so if you're going to go
00:51:17 to go thank you so if you're going to go to the Usher she'll see you out
00:51:29 yes issues thank you very much sir and the next witness is now going to be called there's no need to rearrange the furniture or anything to that effect just they need to change counsel that's all thank you very much for taking them
00:51:43 all thank you very much for taking them with us sir as I struggle with a sense of redundancy may I call mr. Bell to give evidence thank you
00:52:22 I slept by a mighty God that the evidence
00:52:36 thank you thank you very much from deep sit down and make yourself comfortable there yes first of all would you mind confirming your name for the record yeah Scott Jason Bell mr. Bell thank you
00:52:48 yeah Scott Jason Bell mr. Bell thank you very much for coming to give evidence today in front of you there should be a blue folder and if you could turn open to the first tab of that folder there should be your witness statement dated
00:52:59 should be your witness statement dated the 27th of March of this year I think yeah that's quite it and if you turn over to the next tab the next tab yep hopefully there's your contemporaneous
00:53:10 hopefully there's your contemporaneous note that's quite it and if you can turn over to the final tab there should be an exhibit to a police statement is that right yes that's right have you can have you had the opportunity to read those
00:53:21 you had the opportunity to read those documents recently yeah we upstairs it and you confirm that contents are true yes they are and your content for those documents estándares your evidence the inquiry yes they are you know can I deal
00:53:32 inquiry yes they are you know can I deal first of all with some basics is it right that the time of the fire you're a firefighter attached to the red watch at Wandsworth yes and you joined the lfb in 2011 yeah and that on the night of the
00:53:46 2011 yeah and that on the night of the fire you were mobilized to the scene on Appliance hotel 331 yes and that's the ones worth spun leather and the lfp is provided records which indicate that you
00:53:58 provided records which indicate that you were mobilized at 0 1:30 and mobile is zero 132 does that sound about right and then arriving at the scene about 1:45 yes and with you on that night is
00:54:12 1:45 yes and with you on that night is it right that you firefighter John Wright and firefighter Zaid alasa made your way to the bridgehead rigdon SD BA yes that's quite yet now you say it page three of your statement that on arrival you went to
00:54:24 statement that on arrival you went to the mezzanine floor which was the bridgehead at that stage and waited to be committed looking back now um was this the mezzanine on the second floor yeah it was yes
00:54:36 now could the next topic I'd like to discuss with you is your instructions that you were provided with and you don't need to go to your statement yes you want to but at the bottom of page three you say the promise myths governor
00:54:48 three you say the promise myths governor paul watkins gave you your brief is it possible that his name was pulled once or what suddenly I saw about it don't work and was he on the Mets named game was at the bridgehead yet didn't mr.
00:55:02 was at the bridgehead yet didn't mr. Watson show you any kind of map or layout of each floor on the tower and
00:55:08 now the bottom of page three of your witness statement you say in relation to your instruction that it was an effigy call on the 23rd floor two flats with
00:55:20 call on the 23rd floor two flats with families trapped and our brief was to go up and get them out did you receive any further detail at the time you've given your instructions no it's like I'm looking at that now and the word families might have been a bit
00:55:32 the word families might have been a bit of an assumption for myself but it was basically FSG call 23rd floor two flats
00:55:40 here's your break beds breaking in gear there's your house branch any questions you know it's quite when you're dealing with persons report fires is you know
00:55:52 with persons report fires is you know it's quite quick repeat debrief back and so you weren't given details of flat numbers now sorry we were given big as a flat numbers I can't record now I did
00:56:03 flat numbers I can't record now I did have a bit odd he did give me a bit of plate power but a flat numbers on it Butterfield just got destroyed during a night but I remember I said to I think father I said you remember floor 23 I
00:56:16 father I said you remember floor 23 I remember flat wherever it was a cot remember and they'll say to father right you remember the other flat so between us we had it all and we did know the flat numbers that that's on and is it right you had no information regarding
00:56:28 right you had no information regarding the number of people within each for how we didn't know did you have any details regarding age gender disability not abilities now I asked you to look at a
00:56:39 abilities now I asked you to look at a photo and Paul could bring up met document triple zero one three zero seven four now this is a photo from the second floor first of all do you recognize the
00:56:51 floor first of all do you recognize the writing now I don't think following the inquest and I have seen his photo on previous evidence but prior to this inquest I've never seen it before now if
00:57:03 inquest I've never seen it before now if you can see the bottom right hand corner of that there's a oddly shaped circle and if Paul could expand that so you could see it more clearly and what that appears to say is a lhasa bail right
00:57:15 appears to say is a lhasa bail right Wandsworth 23rd floor mm sorry 201 and 2,205 do you recognize that right II did you see it before you went now I didn't know and looking at
00:57:27 went now I didn't know and looking at that is it would you accept that the flats to which you were deployed for 2 0 1 & 2 0 5 yes that might change it now
00:57:38 1 & 2 0 5 yes that might change it now I'd like to discuss with you now your deployment to the 23rd floor yeah um is it right that you and firefighters are last Adam right were all deployed together yes that's right your be a
00:57:49 together yes that's right your be a tally out time is 0 2 0 8 does that sound about right - yes now on page four of your witness statement you say this I think it was eventually the 12th floor
00:58:02 think it was eventually the 12th floor we got to are you sure it was the 12th floor thinking about it we it was very confusing because any floor numbers and in for for a riot literally walked into
00:58:15 in for for a riot literally walked into a wall if you like and from 6 inches see that we was on floor 10 so we're like that's great we can start counting floors again now and I think I think we got up and about so farts stairs the
00:58:27 got up and about so farts stairs the reason I asked is it in there evidence that firefighters are lasted and right think they were at the 10th floor but you think you stopped at the 10th floor and went up yeah we went back down to the temp for the 11th for our I believe
00:58:39 the temp for the 11th for our I believe when once we found there well I'll get to it was the founder casually now you go on in the same pair of to say I heard another crew floor or two below me shouting they were doing door procedure
00:58:50 shouting they were doing door procedure I remember saying to my crew let's tie in with this crew see what they're doing now why did you decide to take that call those sages given to one other
00:59:01 those sages given to one other firefighters that they've been or open the door and so that can you don't know what conditions are going to be like behind behind the door so it's just
00:59:12 behind behind the door so it's just after warnings to have a crew so they can get into a bit of car cover or whatever obviously we're in the worst possible place being on top of them in a staircase because obviously the stairs
00:59:23 staircase because obviously the stairs going to work like a bit the chimbley if you like and does that so sorry mister so I remember sort of shout into floor thought right and Alice said did anyone else hear that
00:59:35 and Alice said did anyone else hear that sounds like a cruise don't door procedure and as I'm saying it they must have open a door because uh the stairs it was smoky before but it is filled with hot black smoke not visibility went
00:59:47 with hot black smoke not visibility went to nothing now at that stage why did you side not to carry on up the tower to the 23rd floor because that obviously was no fire lift there's only one staircase and that's our egress
00:59:59 one staircase and that's our egress that's our only way up and down the stairs so I just went to tie him without crew and see what they were doing because of that you know being where we were we were just getting battered by a
01:00:11 were we were just getting battered by a hot black smoke and it seems to flow from what you're saying that you didn't know the members of this other crews that affair observe awesome I didn't at the time following watching a bit the inquest I think I was possibly so home
01:00:23 inquest I think I was possibly so home now but I did I didn't know at a time when I've done a statement now in your statement you refer to a door being opened a flat was and it's at page 4 of your witness statement now can you
01:00:35 your witness statement now can you remember where that was a flat entrance door or the stair the door between the stairwell and the LOB it was a door between stay away on elevator and what was the effect of opening the door on conditions within the lobby
01:00:47 conditions within the lobby within in the stairwell or the lobby what that first of all within the lobby I didn't I was crouched on the edge of the stairs only half crawled in to the
01:00:58 the stairs only half crawled in to the lobby
01:00:58 lobby once we had found the casual win so what was the effect on the stairwell oh yeah just yeah hot black smoke no visibility now you then say that you were told by
01:01:09 now you then say that you were told by the other crew that their brief was casualties on this floor and that's when you had to make a split-second decisions to whether to continue with your brief or assist the other crew with theirs and you say I'm considering at this point
01:01:21 you say I'm considering at this point that the staircase was really bad with smoke and we'd used up a lot of air getting that far up already and at that stage just for the boards of dad had you concluded that you weren't going to be
01:01:32 concluded that you weren't going to be able to get to the 23rd floor not at that stage it was a case of talking to firefighters right and Alice said let's do a gauge check see how much air we've used getting to this point providing I'm not sure if we was on a
01:01:44 providing I'm not sure if we was on a temp for 11th floor at that stage because we'd come down a floor or so so I'm thinking we've got possibly another 13 12 or 13 plots of stairs to go up find these two flats and bring
01:01:56 find these two flats and bring casualties out through these conditions it was this it was just we were talking about it when it you know we then found the casualty feel like given what you
01:02:07 the casualty feel like given what you say it sounds if you were starting to form the view that you weren't going to be able to get up to the 23rd floor is that a fair observation it'll depend what they found in that Lobby because he
01:02:19 what they found in that Lobby because he if we would have been shut the door because I think if I remember rightly one of the firefighters was cramps what a door open why he's be a partner search in the lobby so if we had shut that door
01:02:31 in the lobby so if we had shut that door they maybe we could have carried on going up at that stage did you consider radioing down to the bridgehead what your current position was we was all this happened very quickly so we
01:02:45 all this happened very quickly so we would I've even a radio down so I knew what we were doing if that makes sense I did get on the radio about a minute later once we had the casually by it was this odd we were still discussing what
01:02:56 this odd we were still discussing what we were doing once we and then we found a casualty so what was your experience of radio communications as you'd gone up but I didn't work and were they ineffective from the point you left the
01:03:07 ineffective from the point you left the bridgehead did they gradually vanish away he sees it's all bit blurry for - but it's all the way up I was getting bits of broken message is its aesthetic I think and with the
01:03:20 is its aesthetic I think and with the berry set you don't get a complete seal on your face mask so when you turn your head at certain way you hear air leaking from the side of your face mask so it's quite confusing experience now you
01:03:38 quite confusing experience now you decided to stay I think you around the tenth or eleventh floor at this stage how it happened was ease I was discussing with my crew what should we
01:03:49 discussing with my crew what should we do then
01:03:51 do then one of the other two firefighters from the other crew said like not put something on my lap and I didn't know what it was I said what is it and he says it's a cat and I said like what do
01:04:04 says it's a cat and I said like what do I want with a cat you know sort of thing and so I put the cat on the floor and even each stitch is a second light item shouting that dad found casualties so that would start my mind made up now that we've got you know possibly savable
01:04:17 that we've got you know possibly savable life here and so you were notified to the casualties what happened next I'll start it scroll through the look door into the lobby maybe a meter or so and I
01:04:28 into the lobby maybe a meter or so and I felt the casualty so I'll start dragging the casualty back towards his staircase I didn't gotten the berry set and a try to send a message to bridge aid just to say that we've found a casual AE on the tenth
01:04:41 we've found a casual AE on the tenth floor 11th floor and we're going to make our way back down when casually but I believe the message went through was just silence and how did you take the casualty down it was a bit of a
01:04:52 casualty down it was a bit of a nightmare if I'm honest today was myself from far far of right for far less that was helping the other crew but err casually in an ideal world it's nice to get one of you under each arm and drag
01:05:04 get one of you under each arm and drag them but the staircase was so tight he's led these licks kept some wrap him around the partner ratings of the stairs so far far I had to keep on getting his
01:05:17 so far far I had to keep on getting his legs out was tangled it was casual who's unresponsive it's a lifeless but I've
01:05:28 unresponsive it's a lifeless but I've seen people pulled out fires in the same condition before so you've got given benefit that they're like sometimes they've been a lot of times times they've died sadly so we've we always get people out now at that stage did you
01:05:39 get people out now at that stage did you have the opportunity to check for any signs of life it's it's not possible what we're in brave enough writers and in gloves and especially in grim filter was no chance of doing that and so the decision was to
01:05:52 of doing that and so the decision was to take the cap yeah yeah a lot of sadoc try to send a radio message once but I've made my mind that we were taking him out so I'll doing a waste any time trying to send another a radio message on I knew probably wouldn't go well
01:06:03 on I knew probably wouldn't go well won't work so we just started tracking him down the staircase and how long did it take for you to get that casualty back down to the bridgehead I'm not sure he'll see it's a bit of a blur we have
01:06:15 he'll see it's a bit of a blur we have your end of where time is zero to twenty eight so the deployment appears have lost about 20 minutes or so yeah does that sound a bit right to you and it's difficult as quickly yeah probably when
01:06:26 difficult as quickly yeah probably when you got downstairs with the casualty you say you went to the mezzanine floor and the other firefighter not in BA took a took the casualty off use right that's right yet and then you made your way back up the stairs the bridgehead but it
01:06:38 back up the stairs the bridgehead but it had moved at that point is that right yeah the bridgehead have moved up I think two floors by that point so do you think it moved to the third floor higher I think the fourth I think um are you
01:06:53 I think the fourth I think um are you sure I'm not hundred percent it's all I was suffering eight exhaustion and that that's almost a bit blurry form honest okay did anyone tell you that that where the bridge that first of all that the
01:07:04 the bridge that first of all that the British had had moved not not over the right you know they probably tried but I didn't receive the message but once you are down at the bottom of did someone tell you yes number firefighters and I said it's gone up a couple of floors or
01:07:15 said it's gone up a couple of floors or okay know if I can go onto your witness statement we don't need to flash it up I can just read it to you at page six you say that as I was going up I came across
01:07:26 say that as I was going up I came across a bloke with a towel wrapped around his head saying to us that his wife had dimension was trapped on the floor I don't remember which off the top of my head so escorted him down to the mezzanine floor to hand him to the other non be a cruise down there I got the
01:07:38 non be a cruise down there I got the details of his wife from him then we made our way to the bridge had to inform the officers there what we've done regarding our casualty plus about the gentleman's wife first of all was it always your intention to tell the bridge
01:07:49 always your intention to tell the bridge head that you've not made it to the 20 yeah it was yeah did you tell someone at the bridge head that you hadn't made it to the 23rd yeah remember who you told now is confusing picture ID entrant role
01:08:01 now is confusing picture ID entrant role officer there firefighters I'm not sure oh it was if I'm honest manual woman I'm really not sure it was I don't recall
01:08:13 really not sure it was I don't recall seeing what helmets a nose if I'm honest can you also be a crew manager was there possibly unsubstantial can you remember who the person whom you reported what they did with the information you gave
01:08:25 they did with the information you gave them did they for example right on a bit of paper I'm not sure again did you see them right on a wall or a board not that I recall I remembered I was relieved to say us if I'm honest because they were
01:08:36 say us if I'm honest because they were watching our a ago and had no comms with us I remember them being relieved that when we kind of reported in to him I'm sorry to it so nice points about if Paul
01:08:49 sorry to it so nice points about if Paul could bring up a picture met triple zero one five six two five now as the number three indicates this is a wall on the third floor when the bridge head was
01:09:02 third floor when the bridge head was there do you remember seeing that writing on the wall we're now a bank now and so you wouldn't have absorbed any of the information on that wall in relation
01:09:13 the information on that wall in relation to the casualties can you it's always a difficult more than a year off the event you can remember the precise form of words or the gist the words you used in debriefing the individual at the breach
01:09:25 debriefing the individual at the breach at the bridgehead it was more about like more of a joint effort add a brief I think looking about I said previously I think I was close
01:09:36 think I was close suffering heat exhaustion probably close to collapsing apologies again for not seeing it isn't sure can you remember whether as part of the D before that was you or anyone else gave detail of the flats or the floors the casualties have been found or I
01:09:48 the casualties have been found or I think it was basically we didn't get up to publish casualty out from the attempt for 11th floor we didn't get up to our
01:09:59 for 11th floor we didn't get up to our 23rd floor I mean I remember we've got we had the booking casualty and I mean but we hope when we spoke to him we said what flat and what floor is your wife in
01:10:11 what flat and what floor is your wife in so I had been so details I want you to that cross accidentally troll misspell you've been very helpful there may be some further questions arising I'm so much else for the usual
01:10:22 arising I'm so much else for the usual five mic well give me well have a short break mr. bill yeah so mister can you can see whether there are any more questions he needs to ask you please didn't talk to anyone about your
01:10:34 didn't talk to anyone about your evidence only arrives in the room and will resume that how long you been need to all right it was a bit cool to 11 I don't think you very much
01:10:57 all right close to 11
01:11:11 you
01:15:39 well mr. Qadir so just a few supplementals thank you yes yes was took bills come back and please
01:16:01 I think a few more questions mr. go a few more questions yes mr. Phil thank you very much for your time and first of all in respect of the Barry radios you referred in your evidence you say you don't get a
01:16:14 evidence you say you don't get a complete seal on your face mask is that a first summary of what you said yeah no if you're trying not to use up there does that mean you have to be careful about using the Barry and not wasting
01:16:27 about using the Barry and not wasting air I won't think it let's buy a lot of air it's more the sound of it when you turn your head it might you it's sort of noise you know so is it irritant value okay now when
01:16:41 so is it irritant value okay now when you went to back to the bridgehead and said that you haven't gone to the 23rd floor yeah did you give them reasons as to why you hadn't been able to get up there dish that we found the casual way
01:16:52 there dish that we found the casual way I'm no more than that now page five of your witness thinking we don't need to go to it unless you want to you say that you've been saying for a long time that
01:17:04 you've been saying for a long time that radios were useless and no one had been listening to whom had you been complaining about the radio it's just it's another thing like when I was a recruit Sabbath training center
01:17:15 recruit Sabbath training center we're not my lesson about the Barry radio one of the instructors even said that a useless and that was being sold as a recruit so and it's G thing would
01:17:27 as a recruit so and it's G thing would you did you to take it more formally and complain to a station manager or any more senior officer I didn't have one final question and this arises out of an issue that when you are allocated an FSG
01:17:42 issue that when you are allocated an FSG on the 23rd floor why is it that firefighters won't go straight up and try and get the highest floor rather than dealing with other incidents as
01:17:54 than dealing with other incidents as they go up we were making our way up and if that crew wouldn't have opened at all we would have carried on going up it wasn't you know and once we've found a
01:18:06 wasn't you know and once we've found a casual way you know it much as Simon Fuller found someon collapsed on the stairs
01:18:11 stairs about to drag them out you just can't leave people misspelt thank you very much for your evidence today those are all the questions I've got here and just believes me say thank you very much for your help it's been invaluable yes well
01:18:22 your help it's been invaluable yes well thank you very much and either coming to give your evidence is really useful to hear about your personal experiences on the night in question we're very grateful thank you very much for coming and now you're free to go if you'd like
01:18:33 and now you're free to go if you'd like to thank you
01:18:46 yes sir the third witness this morning is firefighter Elliot juggins and I call him thank you does that need any
01:18:57 him thank you does that need any rearrangement of the paperwork not yet the next witness sir
01:19:51 thank you very much mr. Jung and thank you sit down make yourself comfortable I think much thank you would you please confirm your name in the record Elliott Jones good morning miss juggins
01:20:02 Elliott Jones good morning miss juggins many thanks for coming along today it's much appreciated in front of you is a blue folder and if you could open that folder and turn to the first tab within it yes hopefully there's your witness statement dated the 29th of January of
01:20:14 statement dated the 29th of January of this year is that right yes and if you turn over the next tab
01:20:21 shouldn't be your contemporaneous note is that right that's correct and if you turn over to the final tab that ought to be an exhibit which is a map which was appended to your witness statement is that right is correctly and if you read
01:20:33 that right is correctly and if you read those documents recently yes this morning and you confirm the contents are true yes and your content for those documents to stand as your evidence the inquiry yes thank you now mr. juggins
01:20:45 inquiry yes thank you now mr. juggins if any my questions are unclear please say so and I'll try and correct that also if at any time you need a break please shout that's not a problem yep now if we can deal with some basic points you're a firefighter based at
01:20:56 points you're a firefighter based at Lambeth is that right correct and you've joined the lfb in 2017 yes and so at the time of the fire were you still in development stage as it were yeah I was two months in yeah and
01:21:07 were yeah I was two months in yeah and on the night of the fire you were assigned to appliance Hotel two to one correct and which was assigned at zero 133 we were mobilised at zero 135 is that right
01:21:18 that right I believe sonya and does it sound about right that you're right about 145 that's bad
01:21:24 bad thank you now I think it's right and saying that you went up the tower four times during the night is that right yes but now the folks my questioning today will just be on one of those deployments and it's the
01:21:35 and it's the I went to the 14th floor yes okay now
01:21:41 let's deal first of all with the instructions you received in relation to the 14th floor is it right that you were teamed up with chromosome a Colonna yes / and where did you receive your
01:21:53 / and where did you receive your briefing in the lobby just before we were out to the widget so the mezzanine who provided your briefing not too sure
01:22:04 who provided your briefing not too sure in the name is a watch manager I was pretty new to the job so phases for me you have a familiar name with face better watch magic yes thank you now you said page 8 of your witness
01:22:16 now you said page 8 of your witness statement and we can go to it if you want but the brief was to go to room 111 for 14 he stated we needed to go there as there is a mother and child there it
01:22:27 as there is a mother and child there it was an FSG call but they had lost communications with them yes can you remember whether you provide with any more detail at the time no detail micromanager the team leader of the of
01:22:39 micromanager the team leader of the of the parents received just a small bit of paper and a quick brief stating flat one one one floor 14 and was that exact information replicated on the bit of
01:22:50 information replicated on the bit of paper you have provided at the numbers were mother and child was passed for a brief just for sake of clarity we've given any information regarding the gender or age of the child not did the
01:23:05 gender or age of the child not did the crew Merrimac alone and ask for any further detail from the watch manager I'm not too sure and are you certain that you were told to go to you flat 111
01:23:16 that you were told to go to you flat 111 not any other flat hundreds it was deep were you provided with any layout of the floor so you knew what to expect well yeah I believe there was a map on the wall and a mezzanine just a brief
01:23:28 wall and a mezzanine just a brief quickly drawn picture from whether it was from the watchman you gave us three four or five fights that came down with an idea of what the floorplan Department and you had an opportunity to study bass yeah we had a
01:23:40 opportunity to study bass yeah we had a few minutes to look at that and figure out what we did about mindful that you'd that the roast of the early stages of your career had you been had you explore my rescue like that before were you
01:23:53 my rescue like that before were you aware of the instructions have been given to fire fighters Herrera and orchard in relation to the 14th floor of that state not is it right that after your briefing you went you went to the bridgehead yes and you say it page 7 in
01:24:06 bridgehead yes and you say it page 7 in your statement that the bridgehead was located on the 3rd floor at that stage is that right I believe so yeah I believe those now when you got to the third floor do you remember if you spoke
01:24:17 third floor do you remember if you spoke to anyone I don't think I told you I think I just kept myself focused did any watch manager give you any further briefing not me they may have given it to crew management Mac alone and as he
01:24:29 to crew management Mac alone and as he was the team leader could that briefing have been given when you weren't with him did he go up separately and talk to and even know now I would have been with him but I would have been getting myself
01:24:40 him but I would have been getting myself ready in prep to mask on and helmet on so I might have had complete attention on any briefing that you were focused on your yes preparation Paul could ask you to put a met document triple zero one
01:24:52 to put a met document triple zero one eight seven four nine
01:24:59 now this is a forward information board do you remember seeing that board at the bridgehead I don't remember seeing the
01:25:10 bridgehead I don't remember seeing the board Mac didn't crew Magic Mac alonein or any other officer refer to it before you were deployed you remember anything along those lines I can't remember with a crew manage
01:25:21 I can't remember with a crew manage McClellan had had seen that board at the time I know he was focusing on relaying the brief and more footballs were there believe aboard was there but as for the
01:25:33 believe aboard was there but as for the details I can't recollect okay and apologies for showing another photograph miss juggling bear with me Paul can you put up met document triple zero one five six two five now as the number three
01:25:46 six two five now as the number three indicates this is a wall on the third floor do you remember seeing that wall with writing on it yeah Begley do you remember seeing that wall I don't think I paid attention to the numbers and the floors I do remember
01:25:57 the numbers and the floors I do remember seeing that that's a lean-to yeah given that you'd been deployed to flat 111 on the 14th floor would do you remember scanning the information on the wall to
01:26:08 scanning the information on the wall to see whether that there was any reference to that flat or that floor now again I wasn't focused on any writing in the wall I was focused in getting ready can you remember whether crew measure my cologne and look at it again perhaps he
01:26:20 cologne and look at it again perhaps he might have what in his in his preparations but again I don't know if you did or not before you deployed do you recall seeing any other firefighters coming down from the 14th floor there
01:26:34 coming down from the 14th floor there were firefighters going in and out but as for what floors they came down from now if I could now turn to talk to you about your ascent up the tower yeah and now in terms of the ascent to the
01:26:45 and now in terms of the ascent to the 14th floor we have a be a tally out time for you and crew mayor McLaren in their 0 to 31 and Italian time to 45 so does that sound about right to you I have no
01:26:56 that sound about right to you I have no idea what times it was I'm afraid I do remember it being too around two-30 issue because I remember writing or they were right the times I'm Italian when I went in but as for the exact minute I can tell you don't worry you say that
01:27:08 can tell you don't worry you say that when you got to the 7th floor you lost the light and visibility and you described it as 0% is that a fair summary of what you encountered yes complete pitch back now if I can now
01:27:19 complete pitch back now if I can now turn to your arrival on the 14th floor now when you arrive there you say in your witness statement this is page 9 the third paragraph it was dark but it wasn't smoke loved the smoke logging was
01:27:32 wasn't smoke loved the smoke logging was mainly in the staircase now is that a fair description of what you encountered I believe at the time it was it was very thinning smoke look but it wasn't as
01:27:43 thinning smoke look but it wasn't as pitch black as the stairs the stairs was completely invisible you can see thing but when we got onto that floor I think the viable that protected the stairwell to the lobby had protected it enough
01:27:54 to the lobby had protected it enough that it wasn't too completely smoke god I could still see I could see my hand in front of my face it wasn't completely pitch black so in the lobby itself you could see your hand in front of your face how much further could you see what
01:28:06 face how much further could you see what which I could see my crew manager in front of me was a team leader and then within a couple of meters I'd say I'd be able to see I couldn't see a cross down the floor the lobby to the other flats I could see where we was going to one on
01:28:17 could see where we was going to one on one I could see the door how far ahead of you was crew major McLennan up within touching distance so a meet after did you see another crew on the 14th floor
01:28:28 you see another crew on the 14th floor lobby when I arrived did you hear or see crew matter Mac alone and trying to make contact with the other career yes I believe premieres Mac alone and thought another car on the floor intended to
01:28:40 another car on the floor intended to make contact and receive nothing back okay now if I may now turn to the searchers of flat 111 flat 112 now you say that you went to flat 111 but the
01:28:51 say that you went to flat 111 but the door was wide open but you didn't find anyone in there no that's at page 9 the fourth paragraph is that a first summary of what you encounter yeah completely and when you were searching the flat is
01:29:03 and when you were searching the flat is that the point at which the lobby area begins to get increasingly smoke locked yes so as I completed the search of the flat I noticed as I was coming back out
01:29:14 flat I noticed as I was coming back out towards the lobby that their Lobby had now become a lot darker a lot more but the visibility gone straight down almost to zero I'm sorry and I thought that was smoking coming through the floors
01:29:25 smoking coming through the floors qualities this may be a somewhat impractical question I apologize in advance
01:29:28 advance could you see where this further smoke was coming from I have no idea where it's coming from I just know who's in front of my face now you've gone into flat 111 you've
01:29:40 now you've gone into flat 111 you've searched it yes and had you gone in and checked each and every one of the rooms yes so as we went in I used the tick to search the rooms that's the thermal-imaging Clementina cameras or yes the thermal image come
01:29:51 cameras or yes the thermal image come and pick up any any heat spots apart from at the windows where the fire was trying to get free time and had you who led with the thermal imaging cameras at you or crew module at Olympic Romanism a
01:30:04 you or crew module at Olympic Romanism a colognian was the leader he popped his head into it made the decision that it was clear and I just carried out a secondary suite with the camera just to make sure
01:30:14 make sure now when you carry out a secondary sweep can you explain to us what that involved a secondary secret with the thermal agent camera is just me reassuring our our decision that there is nothing else
01:30:26 our decision that there is nothing else in there as in I could check that in each room that there's there's no bodies there's no fire there's no there's nothing else in there of interest to us and that would only take a few seconds because of the
01:30:37 because of the Unity's of the thermal-imaging camera and will you be shouting out whilst you're doing the sweep or do you just sweep the camera around yeah I believe both meowing pre-made McLaren and had tried to make verbal contact if there
01:30:48 tried to make verbal contact if there was anyone in there receive nothing back the tickles dog sees nothing back now you've completed the search of flat 111 then you went on to search other flats on the floor is that right yeah we we
01:31:00 on the floor is that right yeah we we carried out our task of flat one one one we decided that we did that in ample time we had enough for quite a lot of air left quite a lot of time left so we decided to carry on searching that floor and was that your decision or crew man
01:31:12 and was that your decision or crew man immaculately that was crew managed MacLaren's he's insignia does he basics say this is what we're doing and then yeah that's the system and dischargeable yeah he's the team lead and we'll follow instructions now you say on page 11 of
01:31:26 instructions now you say on page 11 of your statement that once you had search flatter hundred eleven we tried to radio our findings and it didn't work now did you have any radio comms at all when you're on the 14th floor as for me using
01:31:37 you're on the 14th floor as for me using the handheld radio I'm not sure I think my phone had the the comm set itself both of us couldn't make any contact with anyone through either handheld or the comms
01:31:47 the comms did you have a mobile phone with you I did yes I do you've probably been following masses but other firefighters talk of using on
01:31:59 but other firefighters talk of using on occasion mobile phones as a workaround where the radio comms are ineffective did you see anyone using a mobile phone within the tower on the night I didn't I didn't even think of using this my wife
01:32:11 didn't even think of using this my wife I didn't mean to have it I was just just with me so perhaps it could have been a good idea
01:32:16 good idea did you try and switch channels to see whether you could get some contact on the way upstairs I tried to switch through the handheld channels and I wasn't receiving anything but I stuck to
01:32:27 wasn't receiving anything but I stuck to channel six which of the Bo now the next flat yet you search was flat 112 is that right yes Brit and how could you tell it's flat hundred twelve
01:32:38 could you tell it's flat hundred twelve did you look at the we were able to see the flat numbering sign on the front if we we used our torch to flag was the entrance door open or closed now that was closed or not and so how
01:32:51 now that was closed or not and so how did you get in crew manager Mak alone and first attempted to keep the door then he moved on to using the enforcer that we had with us which is obviously the big yellow pole he hit the door a few times
01:33:03 yellow pole he hit the door a few times our then took over so that he can preserve their I hit it a few times and we made entry after through a four hits and who went into search crew managed Michael oh no man him first he did a
01:33:15 Michael oh no man him first he did a search of the property I then followed again so you still had a tick yes sweeping power milotic that it wasn't particularly necessary as that flat was completely lit completely smoke-free it
01:33:28 completely lit completely smoke-free it was a lot like I said and most things like moving to a bubble there was like nothing had affected it and how did that I should have asked this earlier had to that compares the conditions you found in 411 Oh slightly different there was
01:33:39 in 411 Oh slightly different there was no writing and it was it had a thin bit of smoke which is traveling from the corridor from the lobby sorry and Juan Montiel was completely emptying completely clean now turning to flat 113
01:33:53 completely clean now turning to flat 113 now as I said when you left that under 112 you said page 10 of your statement the crew major McLane was a quote slightly before me but when I have come out into the corridor I've met him
01:34:05 out into the corridor I've met him speaking to firefighter Herrera and firefighter to razor from Soho that's page 10 the second year paragraph number of questions flow from that yeah first of all firefighter Theresa I assume is firefighter
01:34:16 firefighter yeah at the time I didn't know something yes and what did you hear of the conversation between kumejima cologne and firefighter Herrera very little the reason clear manager
01:34:28 very little the reason clear manager MacLennan had come out that door first I was just finishing up the sweep with the tick as
01:34:32 tick as that as you do is in them to as I've come out right next to us I noticed a peak of sort of Phi Phi O'Hara was there an activist couldn't really hear what
01:34:43 an activist couldn't really hear what you saying I know that they had a brief to go to one one three I don't know I'm pretty sure he said there was a that we're looking for a family that's know where you say you had it you knew they had a
01:34:54 you say you had it you knew they had a brief or one one three yeah that's what you heard who had Masseria yeah that one free was it before or after that conversation had concluded that you
01:35:06 conversation had concluded that you confirmed that your search of 112 had revealed nothing well as who managed my colleague came out he was confident there was nothing there and as I came out again I just confirmed that there
01:35:18 out again I just confirmed that there was there was nothing there at all so it was just a quick relay of information did you hear Pete say to kumejima cologne that there's loads of people in in they're referring to flat warm on three
01:35:28 three I didn't hear loads of people I heard that there's people inside they weren't coming out that's all I heard is in that conversation like that there was peeping inside they weren't coming up did you
01:35:41 inside they weren't coming up did you have any idea of the number of people did he give any reference in the conversation as in a number of people I wasn't sure but I believe I had a family of three when you say you believe oh
01:35:53 of three when you say you believe oh yeah well Hospital likely or certain you heard that oh it's likely that I was sure that I had family three as for any more people I didn't hear any more people
01:36:04 I didn't hear any more people next thing you're saying you say that firefighter Herrera and firefighter Theresa were banging on the door to flat warm on three when someone finally open did the individual inside that flat didn't want to leave firstly they
01:36:15 didn't want to leave firstly they refused to come out and was talking to the firefighter through a little gap in the door this individual has then decided they will come out as then open the door fully now first of all did you hear anything else being said between the firefighters and the occupants of
01:36:27 the firefighters and the occupants of flat warm on three at that stage I couldn't recollect any any conversation I just I know that Pete was trying to get in and and they will initially did you overhear any of the
01:36:38 initially did you overhear any of the conversation no not the conversation that firefighter had with anyone inside not inside but outside no just that he was trying to trying to get in and he can get and so when you say that firstly
01:36:52 can get and so when you say that firstly they refused to come out yeah it's not that you heard anything well they refused II just by a sense of opening of the door yeah all I heard was
01:37:03 opening of the door yeah all I heard was he was trying to get in and then P it stayed that they weren't opening a door so I didn't hear conversation from anyone inside I just heard the relay of information that they weren't open door now you say a little further on that a
01:37:14 now you say a little further on that a male left the flat with a child around him and then a female has also left the flat alongside them and then you go on to say a bit further down the page the female exited the flat first and the
01:37:25 female exited the flat first and the male and child left after did you see the child at the time I didn't see the child at time man that was just a small confusion in the statement when I said I knew who came out at the end and then at
01:37:38 knew who came out at the end and then at the time I've noticed that a female left first and then a mallard left second no but were you certain that you've seen a male leave first and then a female not female Class B member of us yeah that
01:37:50 female Class B member of us yeah that the first statement I think was confusion with the very person one statement and then you and then is it right the crew margin McAloon took them downstairs yes the female had come up
01:38:03 downstairs yes the female had come up first and gone past both of Mienfoo managed back alonein I believe food manager Mac alone and try to follow the female at first the male had to come out
01:38:14 female at first the male had to come out second I believe following the female as crew matching back alone and had attempted to go and follow the female I don't know what happened whether later on it I believe that he
01:38:25 whether later on it I believe that he she had left him and he'd lost her had he come back the male then shock past Ben as well that was on top of stairs so I could see been at the top of the stairs I could see that the female gone
01:38:36 stairs I could see that the female gone I could see that the male had been gone so that's how I knew first two people had gone no where were you when you saw cream out of Mack alone assuring the occupants down the stairs
01:38:48 assuring the occupants down the stairs did you stay by the entrance door from yes so if you can imagine crew managed Mack alone and was at the top of the staircase I was then in between boom engine back alone and firefighter
01:39:00 engine back alone and firefighter Herrera at the door at the edges to 1 1 3 almost as making a lion to assist him to the door no in your statement you go on to say
01:39:11 no in your statement you go on to say you say you were walking with them and you were grabbed in the dark I've been grabbed on my left shoulder stating to me that he needed help and couldn't breathe what was your understand at
01:39:23 breathe what was your understand at first of all did you assume this was a man hurt grabbed you I assume it was a man for the voice it wasn't for me it was a mountain voices a deep voice I had been making my way to follow crew manage
01:39:34 been making my way to follow crew manage back alone and and the two people that had initially run out I wasn't aware anymore people were coming in on when I was actually grabbed when I turn to make my way towards the door and you have any
01:39:45 my way towards the door and you have any idea of where this man came from I can only presume he came from one one three as I am next to the door I'm the opening to one month three and where did the wet if I can put it this way what where were
01:39:56 if I can put it this way what where were you standing in relation to flat warm or when you I was maybe outside the door a meter outside the door tone in my position to walk to the exit of the lobby downstairs now you go and say at
01:40:09 lobby downstairs now you go and say at page 11 that you grabbed hold of him and guided him through to behind where the male and female are so to help him out of the tower as well did he say anything to you during first errands it from yeah
01:40:23 to you during first errands it from yeah initially yes sorry if you just yes sorry the college's I know there's a temptation gets the answer did you say anything to him in the journey between the flat entrance door and the stairwell all right what I remember from that
01:40:34 all right what I remember from that interaction is that as I turned I noticed someone who touched me and grabbed me what food not particularly hard but I think they were struggling to breathe and they asked for assistance is
01:40:45 breathe and they asked for assistance is in help what like where do I go what do I do and in that instance I think guided them to the exit that the other two people had left from and we're crew manager Mac alone and had been standing at some of the stairs whilst this was
01:40:58 at some of the stairs whilst this was going on did you see or were you aware of firefight where firefighters her errand orchard were I was aware that there was still around the entrance to the door of one one three did you hear
01:41:09 the door of one one three did you hear any conversation between firefighter Herrera and this man I've no recollection of any conversation I just know I was caught on the way out of myself side
01:41:20 myself side did you check let that 113 yourself no
01:41:25 given where you were given you'd carried out a search of both flats 111 and 112 may I ask why you didn't go into flat 113 to carry out a sweep well our task
01:41:38 113 to carry out a sweep well our task was to go to one one one we continued to one one two it was another crews task to complete the FSG survivor was called to one three we had just been there to assist him so I know if I can now turn
01:41:52 assist him so I know if I can now turn to your journey down to the bridgehead and the debrief and when you return to the bridgehead you say that you debrief entry control officer do you remember who you spoke to you man I personally
01:42:03 who you spoke to you man I personally didn't as a crew we did by was crew managing Mac alone and who had given the brief to the intricate or officer at the time I didn't know who that was but I still knew too long and did you
01:42:14 but I still knew too long and did you listen to the debrief the crew manager gave I don't recollect the conversation at all what a deep before do you remember anything being said in
01:42:25 do you remember anything being said in respect of 113 first of all I believe all that was said is that we had assisted these three individuals and which you don't realize there was a
01:42:37 which you don't realize there was a child on the back of one of them so four individuals from flat one three and that's all I remember crew managers say the flat one one three was empty or he couldn't confirm that was empty I don't believe you said
01:42:48 was empty I don't believe you said anything about it being empty or confirmed was empty because me and crow managed McClellan along with those individuals had left before the other correct left side could I take you to
01:42:59 correct left side could I take you to another photo it's a met triple zero one five six to five we looked at this earlier mr. juggins
01:43:13 now at the time of the debrief do you remember the officer writing anything on this wall I have no recollection
01:43:23 did you and crew Marja McLaren have any discussion about the rescue once Yura once you got down to the bridgehead personally between us we just confirmed
01:43:35 personally between us we just confirmed that the three individuals that we had assisted from 1:3 were the three individuals that were at the bottom of the stairs so we knew that the female had come down first as she'd slipped and
01:43:47 had come down first as she'd slipped and Ben was quite happy to realize that she had made all the way down we recognized the second male where as soon as we got down and thought now as soon as we got down because we were very like we were
01:43:58 down because we were very like we were four steps behind all of them coming down so we knew exactly who they were did you speak to firefighters Herrera orchard about who they had come down
01:44:09 orchard about who they had come down with no do you have any conversation with firefighters Herrera orchard after you got back down to the bottom not that I can call personally myself now at
01:44:21 I can call personally myself now at Paris at paragraph three at page 12 of your witness statement you say that the first casualty that ran to us I believe he was from Syria and he stated to me that him and his twin brother were in
01:44:32 that him and his twin brother were in the room that we had rescued him from this was the individual that grabbed me on the left shoulder was on the 14th floor he was hysterical as he thought they left his left his room did you see
01:44:46 they left his left his room did you see whether this was the man who was on the phone I believe this was this was when we go outside and we left the building the casualties had been taken to the ls and as we had come out the building
01:44:58 and as we had come out the building tomato around the corner all right I do recollect the individual coming up to us on the phone talking about his boat was still still inside the building and was
01:45:10 still still inside the building and was this the first time you'd learnt about the possibility of other people being left in flat thirteen was firefighter Herrera with you at this time at this point I can't remember to be
01:45:24 at this point I can't remember to be honest I don't remember if it was with us if you lose just behind us at this point I I think crew manager background was dealing with the situation maybe repeat her error as I'd moved off to
01:45:35 repeat her error as I'd moved off to speak to the three the family of three that we had insisted down to make sure there wasn't terrible so you didn't overhear any conversation between firefighter Herrera and this gentleman none did you overhear any
01:45:46 gentleman none did you overhear any conversation between crew Madame a cologne and mr. Herrera no mr. Herrera says he remembers saying oh on
01:45:57 says he remembers saying oh on hearing that mr. Arthur Charlie's brother was still in the tower do you remember vast well I remember that part imagine saying that okay can't remember what crew magic mat alone was doing at
01:46:08 what crew magic mat alone was doing at this time mr. Ayer is having conversation with the gentleman from flat one one three crew margin Mac alone what was he doing I should have that's possible at this point I'm not sure I
01:46:19 possible at this point I'm not sure I know Ben or crew managed Mac alone in it join me talking to the family three so maybe he had moved away from that situation and joined me and left firefighter over there not too sure but
01:46:31 firefighter over there not too sure but you say that you you you you met the family of three and you asked them what had happened and they told you that people from the same floor had gathered in their flat taking that each element
01:46:42 in their flat taking that each element of that did you ask them how many people have been in flat warm on three to start off with I think not to start off I think I asked how many people had gathered inside the flat and what did
01:46:53 gathered inside the flat and what did they say what was their answer I can't remember if I put in a statement to which I recollect I don't think there was too sure but I think there was they knew there was more than that come out did they tell you anything else about
01:47:04 did they tell you anything else about the people in the flat first of all gender age not to me personally I believe this is where micromanager took over with the situation and had spoke to
01:47:15 over with the situation and had spoke to them in more detail because I believe use the matter the person who passed on the information to the officers that at the beach heads the officers that we didn't find with fire survival garland was mr. Herrera with you at this point I
01:47:28 was mr. Herrera with you at this point I believe fire fire had joined us I'm not too sure again I can't recollect exactly the point in time do you remember him saying anything about the prospect that
01:47:39 saying anything about the prospect that people had been left behind and flat one one three I don't remember saying anything I don't think he believed anyone else was that's on page 13 of your statement you say that you took the information the family had given you to
01:47:51 information the family had given you to the commanders who at the front of the tower was that you or crew manager Mak alone our that we were being co-management alonein so we stick together as a team but he's the team lead over there taking the information he would have passed it on so when you
01:48:03 he would have passed it on so when you say you stick together but for these purposes that crew measurement alone went alone into the tower is that right now we both made our way around but here when you're taking the lead and he would have been the one to talk to anyone I
01:48:14 have been the one to talk to anyone I would have taken a step back to the commanders you were referring to in your witness statement I have no idea white helmets yeah why helmets that's all I knew at the time of my brain did
01:48:28 all I knew at the time of my brain did you see what the commanders did with the information that crew imagined MacLennan gave to them no did you know any more about what was done in relation to effecting a rescue in relation to flat
01:48:40 effecting a rescue in relation to flat 113 no I've no idea mr. juggins thank you those are all the questions I've got for you for the moment I own observed men make the usual application but subject to perhaps an extension at this
01:48:53 subject to perhaps an extension at this time of the might have a slightly longer break just leave he is the focus of
01:49:09 break just leave he is the focus of questioning for mr. lever will be on the forensic examination he carried out that extent it's covering his statement I anticipate that he will take between 45 minutes and an hour so we're slightly behind schedule at the
01:49:22 so we're slightly behind schedule at the moment and so sir might I invite you to rise until half-past eleven and then we're gonna have a short break now mr. juggins please don't talk to anyone
01:49:33 mr. juggins please don't talk to anyone about your everything let's play you're out of the room we'll come back at half-past eleven yes so if you like to go with the usher now show the coffee
01:49:50 right you live in such conditions
02:00:08 well mr. Kenya where are we sir as ever just a few more supplementals yes be taken relatively swiftly we have mr. Joe Gillis back please
02:00:33 if dousset numbers to do a few more questions yeah thank you very much for your continued help first of all can I see a question going back to question about flat warm 1/3 yes would you have
02:00:46 about flat warm 1/3 yes would you have been able to carry out a sweep of flat warm 1/3 with the amount of air you have left at the time can you remember potentially but again it wouldn't be my
02:00:57 potentially but again it wouldn't be my role there was a team there that was tasked to to go to one one three and and get the people out it would have been their decision to to do whatever they wanted to do that flat I was just there
02:01:09 wanted to do that flat I was just there to assist them as I was in every pot to me at a time now are you familiar with policy 8:03 which deals with search and rescue procedures yes now Clause 7.1 within that policy states
02:01:22 now Clause 7.1 within that policy states that it's standard to recommend a story standard to sweep the immediate vicinity of where you find casualties given that you unexpectedly or Robert you've found casualties within flat 1 1 3 with that
02:01:35 casualties within flat 1 1 3 with that of being a trigger for you to consider carrying out a sweep of 1 1 3 for me personally now for those the team that was involved again I don't think it
02:01:46 was involved again I don't think it would have been because that policy states that when you find a casualty unconscious in a search and rescue attempt then what you would do is you you'll step maybe one meter away from that body or that casual team will sweep
02:01:58 that body or that casual team will sweep that immediate vicinity you wouldn't think I'm sweet the rest of the room because again you've got a casualty there you need to take them out and need to exit and withdraw so again it wouldn't be to search the whole entire property would just be the
02:02:09 entire property would just be the immediate 1 meter area around that casualty an individual thank you now from your vantage point outside or on the threshold of flat 1 1 3 were you able to see inside that flat no
02:02:27 now can I just let you be a few more questions not made to come now you said in earlier evidence that you're almost sure that you'd heard reference to a family of three in within flatworm on
02:02:40 family of three in within flatworm on three
02:02:41 three where were you when you heard that information were you on outside the flat on the 14th floor lobby or was it elsewhere that would have been when I had left one one two and it approached
02:02:52 had left one one two and it approached micromanage our in conversation with fire fire era I believe they would have been mentioned of the family of three then when they mentioned that they've been sense of lap one one three because that would have been the reason they
02:03:03 that would have been the reason they would have been sense of one one three
02:03:06 did crew madam a cologne tell you directly that he'd seen three casualties or none or rather that he'd been told there are three people within now this
02:03:17 there are three people within now this is just me trying to overhear a brief from their conversation again
02:03:26 and you're obviously aware that's on the base of that information which you learned whilst on the 14th floor itself you've seemed not only by the time you
02:03:39 you've seemed not only by the time you got banned to the bridgehead you knew there was a man woman and a child yes he also knew that was an additional man yes did you do anything to communicate that information to anyone at the bridgehead
02:03:50 information to anyone at the bridgehead or did you rely upon cream a jam a cologne to convey information as to who you'd found and yes our give me a mean chromosome a cologne and we're together and he would have relayed the information that for individuals that
02:04:01 information that for individuals that came down with us he would have said exactly who they are where they came from and that they can done with us now in your statement you say you asked mr. Herrera I think as you're about to leave
02:04:14 Herrera I think as you're about to leave the 14th floor is there anything more I can do yes did you have anything specific in mind when you asked that question of mr. Herrera no again I
02:04:25 question of mr. Herrera no again I believe that was my naivety to the to the role that I had my job would have been to immediately follow from crew manager Mac alone down the stairs with the casualties again that is what I did
02:04:37 the casualties again that is what I did and that's what I was going to do but in that speak second I just had to wonder if there's anything else immediately that I could have done to assist whilst I was there before I made my way downstairs with the keropok with you individual teas and background did you
02:04:49 individual teas and background did you say any stage I'm staying with you because I want to search and find more people did you say that saying that it might be that I had said that I wanted to do more and if there's more I could
02:05:01 to do more and if there's more I could have done I don't I don't know if I recollect saying I want to stay and search for my people did you have in mind doing anything more in relation to flattered hundred thirteen in relation to hundred thirteen no but in relation
02:05:13 to hundred thirteen no but in relation to to me and the reason I join the job is a waste there's much oh good so if I if I could have done more with them given that you wanted to carry out a
02:05:24 given that you wanted to carry out a further search did you know whether a search had been carried out of flat 113 itself by Herrera or Orchard it's not that particularly one is to carry out a
02:05:35 that particularly one is to carry out a search of one month three or of anywhere else some wanted to do more but again I'd left fire fire and fire for torture to go in and complete my task which was to take the individuals
02:05:47 task which was to take the individuals down with the crew manage of a colognian if a search had taken place I'd the idea I was just told to to carry on to complete my task that was to go me to my flame I asked you earlier whether you'd
02:06:00 flame I asked you earlier whether you'd said I'm staying with you because I want to search and find more people mr. Herrera in his evidence said that you'd said that again I don't personally
02:06:11 said that again I don't personally recollect saying those things it could have been that I said that and by all means it would have been so am i I've said because I'm there to do a job the job I'm doing is to save as many people as I can so if I had said I want to do
02:06:22 as I can so if I had said I want to do more can I save more people there's definitely something I could have said it's just I don't recollect I said to you what I said it's all finally judging by your experience of sweeping a 100
02:06:33 by your experience of sweeping a 100 1112 would have been relatively easy to sweep flat 113 quickly I have no idea cuz I don't know what the conditions where I didn't see inside the flat I didn't see he was there what it was like if there was any fire damage or smoke
02:06:45 if there was any fire damage or smoke login I have no idea what what that crew could have done mr. juggins thank you very much for your evidence days being very helpful Thanks thank you very much Joe gives become even more evidence it's really helpful
02:06:56 even more evidence it's really helpful to us to hear first-hand about taking your particular experiences in the tire so we're very grateful thank you very much and you might give the I'll show you're free to go thank you
02:07:12 but sir for the next witness they'll have to be some rearrangement of the the witness lectern and so might I invite you to rise to allow that to be yes well I'll write for as long as you need
02:07:24 well I'll write for as long as you need to get sorted out and you can send the usher to fetch me when you're ready thank you very much thank you very much
02:11:16 yes mr. so thank you may now call mr. Matthew lever thank you yes
02:11:45 I swear by Almighty God I swear by Almighty God the events I shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing battery figure indeed
02:11:58 truth and nothing battery figure indeed cleaver yes good morning mr. lever come on first of all can you confirm your name for the record Mattie Charles lever you should have a blue folder on your lectin and behind
02:12:11 blue folder on your lectin and behind the first tab is your statement dated the 10th of October of last year is that right that's correct yes behind the next tab ought to be two exhibits the first one being your fire investigations scene
02:12:24 one being your fire investigations scene additional notes of the 14th of June and then behind that your scene additional notes dated the 15th of June yeah
02:12:35 notes dated the 15th of June yeah they're not classed as additional notes there my original contemporaneous notes the 14th and they're behind that tab
02:12:53 and then additional notes in the 15th year yes and finally there ought to be a warm final tab behind which there is an exhibit which says picture the window is that right that's correct yes thank you
02:13:06 that right that's correct yes thank you have you read those documents recently I've read my contemporaneous notes recently the additional notes for not for a short walk you content to confirm their contents are true I am yes and
02:13:19 their contents are true I am yes and your content for those documents estándares your evidence the inquiry yes ma'am mr. LeVar first of all thank you very much for coming to give evidence today I'm given your role as a fire investigator the focus of my questioning
02:13:31 investigator the focus of my questioning will be on that investigation but I'll also be asking you questions about what you saw when you arrived at the tower and other observations you've made on
02:13:42 and other observations you've made on the fire in your witness statement now first of all if I could deal with the elemental detail it's right that you at the time of the fire you're a watch manager who is based at delegate fire station attached the fire investigation
02:13:54 station attached the fire investigation team is that right that's correct and that you've been employed in the fire service for 20 years plus 21 years to date this and you've investigated about a hundred 80 fire scenes is that right
02:14:06 a hundred 80 fire scenes is that right at the time yes and you attended the tower on the night of the fire do you remember what time you arrived approximately 157
02:14:19 the first topic I'd like to discuss with you mr. lever is the topic of cladding now if I can start off to see whether I can fairly summarize your evidence this
02:14:31 can fairly summarize your evidence this way is it fair to summarize your key explanations the fire thus and ask you to turn to page five of your witness statements the first paragraph and the last three lines where you say this the
02:14:45 last three lines where you say this the fire partly was inside the building in the cladding between the concrete and the cladding so effectively there's a little chimney there and it's going up you've got all these voids these little
02:14:57 you've got all these voids these little chimneys and in my opinion that's partly how its spread now first of all is that the first explanation as to the nature of the fairness and it's spread that yes
02:15:09 of the fairness and it's spread that yes that's partly I believe the reason why the fire are spread and if I could ask you to turn to page 4 and the second substantive paragraph on page 6 lines from the bottom you say this the spread
02:15:20 from the bottom you say this the spread the fire up the building affected the windows once they fail the boundary protecting the outside of the inside has gone the fire can get into that room is
02:15:31 gone the fire can get into that room is that a second key explanation of the nature of the fire you encountered on the night
02:15:38 yes now have you any previous knowledge of this type of fire a fire involving cladding not this type of cladding no do
02:15:52 cladding not this type of cladding no do you have any experience of other UK high-rise fires involving cladding I'm thinking of lack nor house and Shepherd's court ship is caught I'm aware of I was there as one of the additional investigators on Shepherds
02:16:03 additional investigators on Shepherds Bush call and could I ask Paul to put up lfb document quadruple zero three five to war now this is a as a legend
02:16:16 to war now this is a as a legend indicates and NFB document titled tall building facade July 2016 and first of all have you seen this document before I've seen it made reference to as part
02:16:27 I've seen it made reference to as part of the inquiry I don't recall seeing it as part of my training could I ask you mindful of what you just said could I ask Paul to turn to internal page five of this presentation now earlier on page
02:16:45 of this presentation now earlier on page five of your witness statement will referred to the chimney effect of external spread could I ask you just to look at that diagram and confirm whether that diagram illustrates the chimney
02:16:56 that diagram illustrates the chimney effect which you were referring to page five of your witness statement
02:17:12 not entirely now and to what extent doesn't it that our series to show the development of fire upper cladding as in the cladding burning externally what I
02:17:24 the cladding burning externally what I believe has happened in this case is the voids within that have been created due to the cladding being set away from the building has led to unseen voids
02:17:36 building has led to unseen voids effectively that have allowed for fire to travel up the building and generate more energy a higher rate unseen effectively to the to the external
02:17:48 effectively to the to the external viewers thank you now the next topic I'd like to discuss with you is the LF P's ability to fight the fire that they encountered on the 14th of June and if I
02:18:01 encountered on the 14th of June and if I could ask you to turn to page four of your statement and it's the second substantive paragraph and the first three lines where you say we couldn't get any fire feet firefighting media on
02:18:13 get any fire feet firefighting media on the outside we were not going to hit anything effectively above the 10th floor because we haven't got the capability to do that the fire was left to do what it was going to do this spread slowed down an awful lot as soon
02:18:24 spread slowed down an awful lot as soon as it hit the roof level it was a horrible process of just watching it slowly creep around the building and start coming back down until it reached a point where we could effectively get some water on it and stop it from moving
02:18:35 some water on it and stop it from moving any further now given what you've said there is it correct that your view that this wasn't a fire that the LF B had the capability to fight effectively no we
02:18:48 capability to fight effectively no we didn't have the capability to fight effectively mask a blunt questioned you arrived just before two o'clock in the morning what time did it become clear to you that the LF B didn't have the
02:18:59 you that the LF B didn't have the capability to fight this fire
02:19:04 virtually as soon as I'd arrived to be honest now you refer there to the elytis limited capabilities to reach the external fire above the 11th floor was
02:19:15 external fire above the 11th floor was this fad known to the lfb or where would it should it have been a worse the LFP from the moment they began fighting the fire as it started as it started to spread externally sorry could you repeat
02:19:28 spread externally sorry could you repeat that
02:19:28 that now you say in your witness statement the LFP had limited capabilities to reach the external fire above the 11th floor now was this fact known to firefighters from the moment they began
02:19:39 firefighters from the moment they began fighting the fire once it spread externally above this point ultimately once it got high enough up the building people would have realized that however we've never experienced anything that
02:19:51 we've never experienced anything that spread with this ferocity and this capacity so if you're looking at shepherds court as an example the spread was up the outside of the building but
02:20:02 was up the outside of the building but it was because it was a different cladding it can't be compared to this it was a totally different slower process but the frosting at this bread there was no way that anybody could have said in
02:20:15 no way that anybody could have said in the meal oh but everything that was going on the point where somebody says yeah we haven't we can we can't cope with this and stop the fire I don't know when that point would have been but you
02:20:26 when that point would have been but you wouldn't realise that especially if you were inside the building now are there any particular features of cladding fires that make it particularly difficult to fire fight to contain what
02:20:38 difficult to fire fight to contain what any particular features the cladding itself that make it difficult um I don't think I'm the best placed person to answer that to be honest if I'm looking at my experience I would say one of the
02:20:49 at my experience I would say one of the features that makes it problematic is the fact that it's designed to repel water that's the point I was getting to that disasters in particular
02:21:00 that disasters in particular difficulties in firefighting definitely definitely if you travel up the inside of the building and if we've got combustible items on the inside of the cladding or the inside face of the cladding is unlike before the external
02:21:11 cladding is unlike before the external face catches intakes part of the fire then all you're doing is pouring water on something that is designed to repel water and presumably also if the fire is travelling within voids
02:21:22 travelling within voids that's an additional difficulty confronting firefighters now you say at page 5 of your witness statement is the first paragraph five lines down you say
02:21:35 first paragraph five lines down you say I truly believe if we got to the twelfth floor early doors we wouldn't have been able to stop it going up the outside of the building just to be clear you saying
02:21:46 the building just to be clear you saying here that it should have been appreciated by firefighters on the night from the moment the fire spreads the exterior the difficulties they were facing no I don't think it was clear at that point what I'm trying to say there
02:21:57 that point what I'm trying to say there is that even with the best food in the world with the way this fire will spread if we'd have had the world's first firefighter with the ideal equipment given the time scales from when the
02:22:09 given the time scales from when the moment it was realized it was on the external side of the building I don't believe that somebody could have got up for example as I say to the 12th floor by the time they've gone round around that internal staircase by the time
02:22:21 that internal staircase by the time they've got to that Lobby they identified which flat they needed to get in which would effectively be vertically above where the fire is by the time they've made patrons into that flat by
02:22:32 they've made patrons into that flat by the time they found the right window and made access to that window and then set up all the fire fire medium that they would need in order to attack that fire from above it's red up the building too
02:22:43 from above it's red up the building too quickly could I now turn to a separate topic and that's your observation of fire re-entry now first of all when you first observe fire after you left the command unit do you recall seeing any
02:22:55 command unit do you recall seeing any evidence of fire reentry into flats from the exterior at that stage early relatively early on in the incident there was a clear definition between unburned and burnt parts of the building
02:23:08 unburned and burnt parts of the building there was a diagonal line from what I believe to be at the time the fourth floor approximately the third window in from the on the east face from the north corner that diagonal line went up the
02:23:21 corner that diagonal line went up the building it was a clear definition between to the right-hand side of it the north side of it was burnt and then to the left hand side was undamaged to cladding at that time that
02:23:33 undamaged to cladding at that time that line went entirely up the building to the the south eastern corner you can see I think I estimated it approximately 40
02:23:45 I think I estimated it approximately 40 flats I think that's a little bit it was probably 30 flats that had fully developed fires going in there that the fires just broken through either broken
02:23:56 fires just broken through either broken through the windows or through the voids and those the rooms that you could see from that east face were totally developed in the fire what evidence indicates that a fire has re-entered from the exterior has re-entered the
02:24:08 from the exterior has re-entered the building evidence that would indicate that would be the fact that the room is involved in the fire that's as simple as
02:24:19 involved in the fire that's as simple as that it would and one question I've been asked to us is how obvious is that I think you've just answered it yeah it's it's a to be honest yeah is a horrible thing to say it's you soon realize that
02:24:32 thing to say it's you soon realize that the conditions that the crews are working inside are untenable and that we are looking at a severe loss of life
02:24:43 are looking at a severe loss of life now you referred to in an earlier answer that you saw 40 flats or so been entirely consumed by fire and by that you say totally gone a hundred percent
02:24:54 you say totally gone a hundred percent damaged by fire can you remember at what stage was this how soon after you arrived just before two o'clock in the morning I would say that was probably about two twenty to
02:25:07 that was probably about two twenty to thirty if as late as that can I now turn to briefly to another topic which is the mechanism of fire re-entry and going back to page four of your witness
02:25:19 back to page four of your witness statement the last paragraph and it's six lines up from the bottom
02:25:25 we dealt with this earlier but the spread up the building effect of the windows once they fail the boundary protecting outside of the inside has gone the fire can get into that room now one question which is arisen is what was
02:25:36 one question which is arisen is what was the evidential basis of that observation was it what you saw on the night the inferential basis on that is that we were standing there watching defied
02:25:48 were standing there watching defied develop the cladding slowly we move away and as the cladding as the cladding was consumed it was quite clear that the
02:25:59 consumed it was quite clear that the fire wherever it left behind was involved in the fire and looking at practical matters it was a warm June night and so windows would have been opened giving it a further point of reentry
02:26:10 now can I turn to the fire investigation itself and you mentioned at paragraph 5 of your witness statement that you watch managers read and Girling we're running
02:26:21 managers read and Girling we're running around trying to get as much information as possible and what plan did you have at that stage in terms of the collation of evidence that was necessary for your investigation so I was joined by watch
02:26:32 investigation so I was joined by watch managers read and watch mine is a girl in 222 in the morning initially our plan was try and make some sense of the chaos that was insuring trying to get as much
02:26:45 that was insuring trying to get as much information as we could part of our investigation process is the scientific method as best we can implement it and part of that is collecting data if I can stop you there how practicable is it to
02:26:57 stop you there how practicable is it to collect that evidence when the fire is still ongoing and the forrester's and as intense as it was on the night oh no really we don't do that ordinarily we go
02:27:08 really we don't do that ordinarily we go in after the fire has gone out we may turn up and we may start to speak to initial crews whilst the fire is ongoing but that is relatively slow time we may
02:27:22 but that is relatively slow time we may speak to witnesses again we'll try and be as expedient as we can but ordinary excuse me we are looking at a slower time in the cases of this the dynamics
02:27:33 time in the cases of this the dynamics of everything that's going on in the manor things that everybody was doing it was it was actually okay what priorities did you set yourself for the investigation at that time and morning so half to so at that time in
02:27:45 morning so half to so at that time in the morning much manager girl iam was given the task of going rounds Clayton getting as many photographic or evidence as possible so basically to do a 360 of the building try and take as
02:27:57 a 360 of the building try and take as many photographs as he possibly could just to document the development the fire watch management read was over to the west face of the building trying to collect information over that side
02:28:08 collect information over that side trying to see if he any crews had any information that was pertinent so the early stages of the fire I was over to the east side of the building again Clayton information from crews which
02:28:21 Clayton information from crews which manager Reid was doing his best to document any deceased occupants that came out the building I was doing the same on the east side sorry one of the
02:28:33 same on the east side sorry one of the structures that one of the goals that we've put in place as were always trying to identify the first crews first officer in charge if possible I managed to speak to the first crews I didn't get to speak to Mike doubt him because he was just too busy and what stage in the
02:28:47 was just too busy and what stage in the evening were you able to have your first review of the evidence that you mr. reader mister Gerling it collated to see where you've got to
02:28:59 [Music]
02:29:02 when to review it I would think probably we mean we touch base a couple of times I seem to recall a couple of times we
02:29:13 I seem to recall a couple of times we found each other just to see where where we were out what we need what needs to be doing I don't think we had a formal review of everything until a great manager publicly got there and what time was that that was approximately five
02:29:24 was that that was approximately five o'clock in the morning so group manager Pugsley was informed about half past two quarter three I would have thought by watch manager Reid because we knew the
02:29:35 watch manager Reid because we knew the severity of it and we knew that this was going to be a long ongoing process so we wanted to put as best the structures we could possibly put and he was integral in that may I ask you when was the first
02:29:47 in that may I ask you when was the first time what time we were able to enter flat 16 for the first time was about nine o'clock in the morning and on your first entry can you describe for us what
02:29:58 first entry can you describe for us what you saw in and around the kitchen window area in the round the kitchen window area was 100% damaged by fire there was a window which I believe is the drawing
02:30:11 a window which I believe is the drawing that you referred to at the rear this booklet that I've drawn there was a there was an upright fridge freezer there was to the right that was a cooker I mean that went on further into the
02:30:22 I mean that went on further into the kitchen to the left and the lower the window was to other what we believed with refrigeration units but we hadn't identified ones at that point purpose of going in the flat at that point was just it had been agreed
02:30:34 point was just it had been agreed through tactical command meetings that we were going to go in we were going to see if we can get any evidence to our help identify the occupants of flat 16 for a visual examination to see if what
02:30:49 for a visual examination to see if what findings we could see if that was a point that was a potential for the fire to start based also on witness information from crews that we'd gathered by that point now can I ask you a more particular question what did you
02:31:01 a more particular question what did you see between the remains of the large fridge freezer and the kitchen window what was often what lay in that space some debris there wasn't and I
02:31:15 space some debris there wasn't and I recall anything directly in between that the the fridge and the window there might have been a bit of something there that's been consumed but I don't recall
02:31:26 that's been consumed but I don't recall any physical item in that corner the room was slightly angled just because of the design of the building but nothing don't recall between the the upright
02:31:38 don't recall between the the upright fridge freezer and that window when was your second visit to flat 16 believe me is like on that back and what was the
02:31:50 is like on that back and what was the purpose of that second visit again gathering further information as best we could at that time we'd had several meetings with group manager Pugsley it
02:32:04 meetings with group manager Pugsley it was a team effort from the onset from our point of view our our point of view was that we wanted to gather as much information and as much evidence as we
02:32:15 information and as much evidence as we possibly could given the fact that it was firmly believed it was a potential for the transfer for the building to collapse mindful it was a team effort what was your particular role and function has passed the fire
02:32:27 function has passed the fire investigation so my function as I said was initially gathering initial evidence on there relaying that back to the team I then at approximately 10:30 I think it
02:32:39 I then at approximately 10:30 I think it was I was asked to go to lebryk over police station to help us have a structured interview with mr. Kirby knew who we believe was the occupant of flat 16 I think came back I relate that
02:32:52 16 I think came back I relate that information to a group manager post Lee and the team I went up briefly
02:33:03 in fact
02:33:07 I've went up very very briefly the second time check that check the thing was a right I believe and that was it and then I was feeling that my contemporaneous notes and what was watch manager girling 's Roth which my girl
02:33:19 manager girling 's Roth which my girl Ian's role again he'd been he documented the outside he then went on to document all the commands you units took photographic evidence of everything on the command units that was his role and what's measure read watch manager reads
02:33:32 what's measure read watch manager reads he as I said earlier he documented stuff on the west side of the building he had also drawn plans of flat sixteen
02:33:43 he had also drawn plans of flat sixteen he was also I believe joined fire watch manager Kent and watch manager swaddling I was part of the team that went in in the late morning to help identify
02:33:56 the late morning to help identify evidence in in flat six thing I now want to deal with a very precise topic and that's a question of water levels within flat sixteen itself yeah much manager
02:34:07 flat sixteen itself yeah much manager read in his statement we can go to it if you want but I just read out the relevant bit what matter read says at page seven of his statement the entered flat sixteen on the 15th of June for the second time before posture in the
02:34:20 second time before posture in the afternoon and he states this on entering flat sixteen for a second time the water levels of inquiry had increased inside and outside the flat there was approximately four inches of water covering the hallway floor that led into
02:34:33 covering the hallway floor that led into the kitchen area first of all what was causing the water levels to increase further the amount of water that's coming down from the 20 or 19 floors above us that where the people would you
02:34:45 above us that where the people would you know different firefighting actions that were going on fire fire connections were still going on above our heads at that point and what manager reads says proximately four inches of water covering the hallway are you able to help us as to how high the water level
02:34:57 help us as to how high the water level was in the kitchen to flat 16 on the 15th of June it was three to four four inches at times there was a lot of debris on the floor that's falling down from the walls and come in different parts of the room later
02:35:12 parts of the room later apologies I don't recall whether it was and when the dog search was done but I remember that we had to remove the water from the flat the only way we could do that was to force the lift shaft open in
02:35:26 that was to force the lift shaft open in the dark and let the water out down the lift shaft I was about to ask you that it seemed to Orin sunny was the water was shoveled or paddled out into the hallway and then down the lift shaft is that right that's correct
02:35:37 that right that's correct can you remember when that was done that was done just prior to the dog search I'd have to refer to the night of exactly when would that have been on the
02:35:48 exactly when would that have been on the 15th of June yes was the shoveled water checked for potentially significant debris before it was shoved down the
02:36:01 debris before it was shoved down the lift shaft now in all honesty um should have been done I suppose my question in the cold light of day if we could have taken that flat and put it in a field somewhere then yes we would have filled
02:36:13 somewhere then yes we would have filled with everything however as I said earlier even on the 15th it was still decided or deemed that the flat that the building was potentially unstable and we
02:36:24 building was potentially unstable and we were given the tasks for doing the best that we could do appreciate that it was not it's not following the scientific method as best to the lip of the law as it possible at the peak all we did at
02:36:35 it possible at the peak all we did at the time was as best we could in given the circumstances we were working on that thank you the next topic I'd like to discuss with you is the gridding process first of all can you explain what the gridding
02:36:47 can you explain what the gridding process is so I believe I didn't implement it myself but I believe due to the time constraints that were put on the guys that we went in for that
02:36:58 the guys that we went in for that particular session to help examine what they decided was that there was an area in front of the fridge freezer which had a lot of debris in it and it needed some form of documentation they didn't have
02:37:13 form of documentation they didn't have the time or the conditions to go through that in a fingertip search so what they did was they created a grid labeled the grid so that they could photograph that and then they took each individual grid and bagged that up separately so could
02:37:25 and bagged that up separately so could be examined now who was in charge of the gridding process I believe watch manager Reid implemented the grieving process and would he not only have set the grids but also carried out the gridding itself on
02:37:37 also carried out the gridding itself on the review of the debris within each grid so he believed him along with watch manager Kent and so oddly they set the grid up they photographed it they put it into plastic bags and then moved that to
02:37:48 into plastic bags and then moved that to one side for examination later could I ask you first of all could I was Paul to put up net document quadruple zero eight to six five
02:38:04 there you go page four now these are your notes I think aren't they mr. leader looks like writing yeah it may be easier just to look at the screen actually I'm finding it from the paper
02:38:15 actually I'm finding it from the paper copy you'll see they're halfway down the page fire debris from grid six and they're after six through to 12 I'm asking a basic question first where
02:38:28 I'm asking a basic question first where they're also grids numbered one to five know again asking another object question why weren't there grits numbered 1 to 5 why did you start at 6 I
02:38:40 numbered 1 to 5 why did you start at 6 I believe that was because the identifies they had at the time only gave them that's the ones that they've grabbed out of the van so then under 6 onwards yeah I think no I think they've just grabbed
02:38:52 I think no I think they've just grabbed a handful but I'd have to confirm that which major rating thank you very much Paul could you put up professor Nick day to report figure 58 which is that n MDR
02:39:05 to report figure 58 which is that n MDR quadruple zero triple zero one page 63 thank you and if you could expand figure 58
02:39:26 No it appears from those photographs that the area within the vicinity of the large fridge/freezer was marked out more than once are you
02:39:41 was marked out more than once are you able to assist us whether first of all that was the case I wasn't there when the gridding tank places have said so I can't comment on the wise and whiffle's
02:39:52 can't comment on the wise and whiffle's and how they gritted her out were you there when they were first of all was there a search of material and debris from the area behind the large fridge/freezer again I wasn't there when
02:40:07 fridge/freezer again I wasn't there when they removed the large which brings up who was responsible that watch magic Gerling or read that would have I believe that was watch manager Kent's and Watchmen is struggling and would
02:40:20 and Watchmen is struggling and would they also been responsible for a search of material and debris from the area between the the large fridge freezer and the kitchen window if they'd have had the time I'm sure they would have done that do you know whether they did that
02:40:32 that do you know whether they did that or not I don't know I know that they packaged the fridge freezer as best they could and there was I believe there was an evacuation surely off their package it and they wanted to remove because of
02:40:44 it and they wanted to remove because of the fear that building collapse and they wanted to remove that and equally what are you able to say whether all the material debris from the area behind the fridge and the area between the fridge
02:40:55 fridge and the area between the fridge and the window was bagged I'm not able to confirm whether it was talking about now would it be normal procedure to bag debris such as that it would be normal
02:41:08 debris such as that it would be normal procedure given different working conditions to go through a much slower pace yes you wouldn't necessarily bag everything in a room in order to examine
02:41:19 everything in a room in order to examine it later you go through it systematically and identify key areas that you believe are key factors or contributing factors to an incident and you may well sample those for the
02:41:31 you may well sample those for the further testing were you present when debris from the kitchen was shoveled out and put down the lift shaft I was present when water from the kitchen was
02:41:43 present when water from the kitchen was shoveled out yeah and that water would have contained debris presumably potentially part was at debri yes was water presumably water from the intolerance of the kitchen would have been shoveled out yeah what will come
02:41:56 been shoveled out yeah what will come from the kitchen down there you've got a look at the distances what comes from the kitchen is we had to get out the kitchen door along the hallway they had to turn left then and there had to go across the lift lobby to get to the lift
02:42:10 across the lift lobby to get to the lift shaft are you able to say whether debris under the extractor fan and the kitchen window was backed or not some of it I
02:42:22 window was backed or not some of it I believe was backed but again you weren't present when it was done no again are you able to confirm that there were three 230 volt related wires going into
02:42:33 three 230 volt related wires going into the extractor fan I recall some wire and seeing some wiring in the room that could possibly be through an extractor fan button that I bought to confirm whether or not they've been to in the
02:42:45 whether or not they've been to in the extractor fan when you saw it in the room you mean the kitchen first up in the kitchen yes and where in the kitchen did you see that wiring that's between the fridge and the reasonably high level
02:42:56 the fridge and the reasonably high level between the fridge and the window so within the area of the extractor fan um are you able to confirm whether all the wires and terminals from the extractor fan were recovered I wouldn't be able to
02:43:10 fan were recovered I wouldn't be able to confirm that I'm now going to take you through some of the photos and see to what extent you can help us with what those photos reveal and first of all if
02:43:22 those photos reveal and first of all if I could start with a figure from Professor McDade report and Paul you have the reference and if you could magnify figure 55 now just so people
02:43:33 magnify figure 55 now just so people know this is a shot taken from the thermal imaging camera and that is a short of the large fridge freezer which is in the center photograph the cooker is identified to
02:43:44 photograph the cooker is identified to the right of the fridge now to the left below the temperature gauge which says 129 centigrade it says unknown items between the tall fridge freezer and the
02:43:56 between the tall fridge freezer and the window and first question is did you see anything in flat 16 that resembled those items which are described to be unknown I don't believe anything's in that corner at that time I believe that
02:44:08 corner at that time I believe that there's an area there that has been defined if you look below if you look between the zero of window there's a
02:44:21 between the zero of window there's a diagonal line that goes up from the o of the window to the W of unknown there's a line there that line is made that's the side of the top of the fridge freezer door that's collapsed and fallen down
02:44:32 door that's collapsed and fallen down and is laying an angle pointing towards the window I believe the the black line which is above the arrow between the Aaron that's 129 degrees so I believe
02:44:44 Aaron that's 129 degrees so I believe that's part of the window frame okay and when you say you believe that was part of the window frame is that as a result of physical examination but you were sort of looking at my photographs that
02:44:55 sort of looking at my photographs that were taken during the early visual examination and the fact I don't recall anything being removed from that corner thank you I'm now going to take you
02:45:06 thank you I'm now going to take you through seven photos and effectively what I'm trying to do is just get your assistance on what those places reveal and the first one is met quadruple zero five eight four seven now first of all
02:45:18 five eight four seven now first of all can you help us as to what this photograph shows first of all what is the object in the center of the photo on the floor objects in the center of the photo on the floor so you've got
02:45:30 photo on the floor so you've got directly in the middle of the picture is a small we believe it's a freezer basically a counter level freezer so a small cube type freezer in front of that
02:45:42 small cube type freezer in front of that you've got another it's either a fridge or freezer I can't remember which both of which I was told were unplugged by the occupant of flat six thing if you
02:45:53 the occupant of flat six thing if you look to the right hand side of that you take the door that I mentioned earlier which is lying on its side and that's the door which has come from the top part of the fridge freezer and stopping there so the black line that I said that
02:46:12 there so the black line that I said that went from there's the oh of window up to an angle is that now can you remember
02:46:31 an angle is that now can you remember what stage of the search recovery process this photograph was taken no do you know what happened to the debris on the windowsill on the right-hand side of
02:46:43 the windowsill on the right-hand side of that photograph the windowsill on the right-hand side of the photograph on day two when we Ben we were examining the flat flat with members of key forensics
02:46:54 flat flat with members of key forensics and a BRE I was in the flat we've watch manager Brad straw we'd examine the area on and around the fridge of the cooker the fluorine the
02:47:08 fridge of the cooker the fluorine the lino underneath the fluorine towards the end of the day as we were mindful the time scales as well that day we had a meet in between all of the investigators up there at the time and we asked if
02:47:22 up there at the time and we asked if anything else needed to be done that day much manager Bradshaw expressed a request to clear that the windowsill so he examined the windowsill with
02:47:35 he examined the windowsill with scientific adviser Bruce Jalla Jalla fee and examine that so they looked at key factors along that windowsill okay one of the things I do recall that they
02:47:46 of the things I do recall that they observed was that the hinges to the window were in the open position that's useful thank you Paul would you mind taking down that photo and putting another one up met quadruple zero five
02:47:59 another one up met quadruple zero five nine six eight
02:48:05 now there are certain metal items to the left-hand side of the fridge do you know whether they were identified first of
02:48:16 whether they were identified first of all and recovered I wasn't part of the together that part of it so I wouldn't be able to comment as they were what they were identified as and again are
02:48:28 they were identified as and again are you able to help us whether the surrounding debris was recovered or not is that question for someone else I would say that's a question for somebody else
02:48:36 else thank you Paul would you mind putting down that photo and putting another one up which is met quadruple zero five eight nine six now are you able to
02:48:48 eight nine six now are you able to assist us as to whether the round object and roughly in the center of that photograph has been identified by you has been identified by May
02:49:06 I believe it's some form of bread maker I don't believe it was in that position I believe it that was possibly moved by Cruz when they were working around trying to get things but that would have
02:49:17 trying to get things but that would have to be confirmed either through the cross-examination of mr. Kirby Lee's testimony and what was in that corner and the other investigators that dug that corner out now the basis of your
02:49:29 that corner out now the basis of your belief that it was removed is that derived from your reviewed consideration of the evidence that's been provided by the residents and the firefighters yes
02:49:41 are you able to assist us with what happened to the debris on top of and surrounding that I don't know what happened to that debris that would be a question for one of the other investigators you'll see again in the
02:49:55 investigators you'll see again in the center of that photograph seen three or four metal poles or rods do you know what's happened to them I don't know
02:50:06 what's happened to them I don't know ma'am thank you could I now look at another photograph met quadruple zero eight four six four are you able to help
02:50:17 eight four six four are you able to help us with what the round white object is I don't know if it definitely looks like the underside of the pin I know are you able to assist us with what happened to the debris on and surrounding that
02:50:29 the debris on and surrounding that object I don't know I didn't as I said I didn't examine that area I would assume that's been examined and either sampled or discounted thank you can I now turn
02:50:41 or discounted thank you can I now turn to another photo met quadruple zero five double nine three now you'll see there's a grill or similar item that's been in
02:50:52 a grill or similar item that's been in this and previous photographs do you know what happened to it no I wasn't there and again wasn't there and that part was dug out curse you too
02:51:06 part was dug out curse you too now look at first of all photograph met quadruple zero eight four six three
02:51:17 and you'll see their piss be some debris next to and in front of the metal grill and if I could ask Paul to put up a next photo which is met quadruple zero six
02:51:29 photo which is met quadruple zero six zero one four
02:51:37 we or untick that now photograph for the same position but the debris is being swept away again are you able to help us as to what happened to the debris that has been collected from that part of the
02:51:48 has been collected from that part of the kitchen again I don't know what's happened to that debris that would have been the investigators it's right that away at the time final question for now
02:52:00 away at the time final question for now final sets of questions for now other witnesses described items has been between the fridge fries and the window or indeed underneath the kitchen window did you see or recover first of all a
02:52:12 did you see or recover first of all a waste paper bin personally now a plastic red bucket and a wooden handled mop given a fire I suspect the wood wouldn't
02:52:23 given a fire I suspect the wood wouldn't have survived again no I didn't as I wasn't the one that dug that area out and a radiator no again same answer I
02:52:35 and a radiator no again same answer I didn't dig out mr. leader those are all the questions I've got for you for now there may be some other matters arising scizor might ask for the usual five minute break and yes mr. Lee sometimes
02:52:48 minute break and yes mr. Lee sometimes council discovers that there are other questions at all so we're gonna take five minutes for him to consider that please don't talk to anyone and if you would be ready to come
02:53:03 anyone and if you would be ready to come back please at half past twelve all right you'd like to give the ocean
02:53:12 place it
02:53:16 right half past 12 of these
02:56:49 you
02:58:56 you
03:02:10 yes mister some very brief supplementals the old permission yes thank you
03:02:30 and give you just a few more questions just to be very even thank you very much for your time first of all earlier on in the evidence you expressed a few about successful firefight being beyond the
03:02:41 successful firefight being beyond the capability of the NFB at the time and I think you said help us to in the morning you for map view first of all is that a fair summary of your of your evidence it was too far at the building of the legislation and that was a view you
03:02:53 legislation and that was a view you formed about half past two in the morning is that right yes did you communicate that view to the incident commander or any other senior officers at the time no the next question is why
03:03:06 at the time no the next question is why not because I was too busy doing other stuff my role is to gather information what isn't an operational role as far as operational taxes are concerned I
03:03:17 operational taxes are concerned I communicate concerns over the corner of the building looking like it may collapse to a senior officer at the time but in the in the command structure my
03:03:28 but in the in the command structure my role isn't it isn't to do that thank you two further questions to do with flat 16 itself first of all as part of your investigation did you identify the smoke
03:03:41 investigation did you identify the smoke or fire alarm that was within flat 16 itself I didn't know that do you know anything about it I don't know ma'am could I ask you finally to look to page 6 of your
03:03:52 finally to look to page 6 of your witness statement and it's the second substantive paragraph on that page and the last sentence you say this I checked
03:04:04 the last sentence you say this I checked the void in the ceiling above the cooker but there were no signs of fire at all now as part of your investigation what did you make of the absence of any signs
03:04:15 did you make of the absence of any signs of fire so I'm sure look for that I'm so sorry
03:04:19 sorry the second substantive paragraph on that page which starts those at tactical command group and I'll just let you read that highlighted section and it's the final sentence I'd like to ask you about
03:04:35 because that's reference to go into flat 10 which is on the third floor which is where we first went in before we went up to flat 16 so this is the flat that's directly below whilst we are aware of
03:04:48 directly below whilst we are aware of the what we believe to be a concrete structure separate in each floor what we did was we went into flat 10 to have a look and see what the conditions were like there deceive the fire is it
03:04:59 like there deceive the fire is it because we look at the lowest point of Burnie and to sit ascertain whether or not we think the fire was died the local at 16 and traveled up through the floor above the cooker in flat 10 directly
03:05:10 above the cooker in flat 10 directly below the window and the fridge/freezer the flat 16 was a access void I stood on the worktop in flat 10
03:05:22 the worktop in flat 10 I opened the access voyage and looked inside there to see what utilities are in there and if there's any potential ignition source in that area that void was totally clean and clear and so what
03:05:34 was totally clean and clear and so what you derive from that was that is it flat 10 was not involved in the and the cause Norwich and Earth are not in the cause notion it was involved later in the development I believe but not in the cause Norwich not in the cause of a
03:05:45 cause Norwich not in the cause of a virgin mr. Liva those are all the questions I have for
03:05:57 one point which has arisen was that I think in you say you arrived at 157 I think I'd asked you the question what
03:06:08 think I'd asked you the question what time you formed the view that the lfb didn't have the capability to fight the phone I think you'd earlier said about half-past two yep but what time did you reach that view was it half past two was it soon sorry
03:06:23 was it half past two was it soon sorry is this a problem well then would you like just to explain what it is
03:06:32 the witness
03:06:37 the musician that he see such excipient problems
03:06:47 the point
03:06:54 and well little Eva I think if I've understood the point correctly there's some concern that you've expressed the view that the lfb didn't have the
03:07:05 view that the lfb didn't have the capability of fighting the fire as being the view you form when you arrived about two o'clock put it in broad terms rather than as late as HuffPost - as you'll now
03:07:18 than as late as HuffPost - as you'll now suggestion can you just clarify that for us to clarify that so I arrived up approximately 157 I've parked approximately three streets away I would think I made my way to the command unit
03:07:31 think I made my way to the command unit I've booked in at the command unit this all takes time yeah my first look at the building from the east face I would have had it in my mind that we were fighting
03:07:45 had it in my mind that we were fighting a losing battle at this point by the time I've looked around and looked at roses are on that face would have been when I made in my mind that yeah we were
03:07:56 when I made in my mind that yeah we were fighting a losing battle so yeah I mean that probably at the earliest was probably 10 past - okay so if I understood you correctly you formed the
03:08:09 understood you correctly you formed the view that as you put it you were fighting a losing battle really from the moment at which you were able to get a good look at the building yes and that was at all shortly after 2
03:08:21 yes and that was at all shortly after 2 o'clock as at some point in sorry in the great scheme of things with all the chaos that was going on I'm not entirely sure at a time well I hope terrifies I think it is the steam and into yourself
03:08:33 think it is the steam and into yourself that leaves me say thank you very much to you mr. livre Thank You fury I just say one thing is that from the fire investigation point of view I mentioned in my testimony that we did the best we could given the fact
03:08:46 we did the best we could given the fact that my team went in there and it was a joint effort we did what we did with the intention just because if that building had collapsed and then there would be absolutely no evidence whatsoever left
03:08:58 absolutely no evidence whatsoever left it would have been thousands of tons of rubble
03:09:01 rubble let's leave it thankfully we understand that very well and you were always in a difficult position anyway thank you very much neither coming to give your evidence that's very helpful and now you're free to go thank
03:09:12 helpful and now you're free to go thank you thank you so if you'd like to go see Asha
03:09:21 yes sir that concludes this morning's witnesses the next witness who's down on the list is mr. Peter wolf and um given that there will need to be a changeover
03:09:32 that there will need to be a changeover given the hour we've arrived at I think the choice is whether we rise for five minutes
03:09:38 minutes and then start for 15 minutes or more preferably to rise now to start again I'd say 22 - I think what we'll do
03:09:49 I'd say 22 - I think what we'll do unless you tell me this is a very dangerous course to take is to rise now and resume a course to - fine thanks it
03:10:02 and resume a course to - fine thanks it of course the - then please