Firefighter Raymond Keene's testimony on turntable ladder operations, water supply problems, and the limited effectiveness of firefighting equipment during the Grenfell response.
00:00:05 thank you
00:00:10 good morning everyone we're welcome to today's hearing we're going to hear first war from another firefighter witness I understand it right yes sir good morning mayor call mr. Raymond
00:00:21 good morning mayor call mr. Raymond Keene
00:00:44 comes
00:01:19 thank you very much mr. king good morning you're going to sit down to give your evidence or socially acceptable thank you good morning um first of all can you confirm your name thank you very
00:01:33 can you confirm your name thank you very much for coming today to give evidence it's much appreciated in green light showing its residents green hello you know you're and if you draw it closer to
00:01:45 know you're and if you draw it closer to yourself then that's it thank you first of all can you confirm that you provided a statement for the purposes of this inquiry yeah I did yeah and if you open the blue folder in front
00:01:57 and if you open the blue folder in front of you hopefully behind Tab A is that the statement you were referring to yeah that's right yeah and or its contents true yep and have you read that the
00:02:10 true yep and have you read that the contents of that statement recently yes hopefully behind Tab B you'll find your contemporaneous note yep and you confirm the contents of that document too true
00:02:21 the contents of that document too true also yes and finally if I could ask you to turn to tab C hopefully you'll then find a sketch plan which is appended to your statement that's right yeah and
00:02:33 your statement that's right yeah and that's correct here's yeah thank you are you content that those documents stand as your evidence the yeah and yeah thank you now because your statement and your contemporaneous notes are your evidence
00:02:45 contemporaneous notes are your evidence the inquiry I'm not going to go through each and every aspect of your statement and note I'm simply going to cover certain topics arise within it yep now if my questions aren't clear that's my
00:02:56 if my questions aren't clear that's my fault
00:02:56 fault if they are unclear please say so and I'll rephrase them if I get them clearer mr. keen first of all can we start with the basics as I understand that you've
00:03:07 the basics as I understand that you've been a firefighter for nine years as that right there yet and that since leaving training school you've been based at Paddington I was yeah until beginning this year and you were on red
00:03:18 beginning this year and you were on red watch during your time at Paddington I was yep and at the time of the fire you was still based at padding dollars yet and it's right that Paddington's callsign is - one that's right and that there are
00:03:29 - one that's right and that there are four machines there including alpha 2 1 1 the ladder yep alpha 2 onto the pump yep alpha 2 1 3 the turntable ladder yep and finally alpha 2 1 6 the foreign
00:03:41 yep and finally alpha 2 1 6 the foreign rescue unit that's right now the first topic I'd like to discuss with you today is training and practical experience and for that purpose can I ask you to turn to page 11 of your
00:03:53 ask you to turn to page 11 of your statement
00:03:56 [Music]
00:04:02 unfortunately these statements they don't have paragraph the numberings but if you look at the first substantive paragraph on that page which starts with the words I felt my training yeah and
00:04:14 the words I felt my training yeah and you say in the third sentence at least once a week we do a drill for a high-rise conditions or a combination drill and we normally use our training Tower once every tour yeah first of all
00:04:25 Tower once every tour yeah first of all what would a drill for high-rise conditions usually cover so basically with the pretend that there was a fire on a certain floor and we'd go about setting up the bridgehead and it's
00:04:37 setting up the bridgehead and it's pretending basically what we had that night though we just go through the procedures what we do and what we'd set up and run through that so it was just basically imagining that there was a
00:04:48 basically imagining that there was a fire and what is a combination drill so a combination geo so you basically set up pumps and ladders so you see our bladders to sit on the floor so it's just combining different ethics of
00:04:59 just combining different ethics of firefighting and pointing to one drill and asking a patient basic question what's a tour for these purposes so that's basically we work on a on a tour so it'd be four days on four days off so
00:05:12 so it'd be four days on four days off so in four days we do a tour and what types of exercises and training do you use the training tower for so on pad and we've got lime rescue so sometimes we use the
00:05:24 got lime rescue so sometimes we use the tower for line rescue would use it for ladder drills and in combination drills as well now further down in the paragraph at line six you say that your
00:05:37 paragraph at line six you say that your training is not particularly realistic why'd you say that obviously as a fire fire you want to have realistic fires to be training on but we've been not got a
00:05:48 be training on but we've been not got a facilities we've tried a range Ian foot up there leap buildings they're gonna be knocked down to actually put a real far in and actually tackle it in training but what we're told we're not allowed to it's too dangerous because it could
00:05:59 it's too dangerous because it could actually be a fire so we have to pretend that is a fire we have to pretend there's some aspects gone wrong we have reaction to that so it's not really
00:06:10 reaction to that so it's not really isn't really realistic but the training that you do he's geared up me he's a method of doing what we do now looking at the fourth sentence you say we also have lectures
00:06:22 sentence you say we also have lectures who provides those lectures there are training packages from Babcock's used before the guide that since Babcock's have taken ivories their training packages and it's delivered by the watch
00:06:33 packages and it's delivered by the watch members so they sometimes there'll be a crew manager or sometimes be the cadet you'll watch manager and before the fire did you receive any training on firefighting techniques in relation to high-rise buildings not that I probably
00:06:47 high-rise buildings not that I probably would have done but I can't remember any specific something we do go over quite a lot of different aspects of training so it's hard to be specific can you remember whether you received any training on what to do if there's
00:06:59 any training on what to do if there's been a breach of a compartment ation and a flat fire in a high-rise building we have our trainee I mean the commander effects is effects a breach of
00:07:10 effects is effects a breach of competence of the cop compartmentalization so that's where the the fire comes out of the building up the window and you'll try and find it easiest access back into the building it will generally go into
00:07:21 the building it will generally go into the next floor above so we've been taught to cover injure when applicable if you so I generally can't do that but yes we have been taught about that burn and half those lectures covered
00:07:34 and half those lectures covered particular issues that arise when a high-rise building there's a fire and that building has cladding on the mobile next area and did you receive any lectures following lack north house fire
00:07:46 lectures following lack north house fire you attend to lessons and what was the content of the lectures you received following Latin all house it was just a training package trying to find out what happened what they what people done on a
00:07:58 happened what they what people done on a day and some conclusions of what could have been done differently that the fortwo happened that day but I can't really remember as you've so long ago
00:08:09 really remember as you've so long ago they were did you have any lectures following the Shepherd's caught fire no were you involved in my consumers yeah and that was an instance I think we
00:08:20 yeah and that was an instance I think we now know where fire re-entered yeah effect yeah and can you remember what firefighting techniques you deployed in fighting shepherds Court other one was for when you came to respond to ground
00:08:31 for when you came to respond to ground for what we was called on quite late in the office mean it's made fifteen pumps so well we got there quite late in incident and we was deployed to do a covering jet to try and stop fire spread
00:08:42 covering jet to try and stop fire spread gun on the outside of the building we set up a jet from the ground feels like amazing I'll ever word took quite a while to actually get access to that floor but by the time we done that the jet weren't strong enough the wall
00:08:53 jet weren't strong enough the wall weren't good enough to get to their short fire itself and the debris was falling there she was quite dangerous actually standing underneath because debri was coming down so we had little effect at all really and by the time
00:09:04 effect at all really and by the time we'd actually cause help and try doing it the fire fires gone in and extinguish the fire thank you looking at the second substantive paragraph on page 11 you discuss here
00:09:15 paragraph on page 11 you discuss here the fire at Trellick tower I think that was in April 2017 yeah a couple of weeks but yes everything's a couple of weeks in May in the penultimate sentence of that paragraph you say after Trellick
00:09:27 that paragraph you say after Trellick tower we had a watch meeting about what we had done and to go for procedures in relation to the firefighting response itself what learning points did read watch at Paddington take from the Chaddock tower fire
00:09:39 Chaddock tower fire well I mean on that particular fighter there the wit rise I know when the pressure drops I should have a pump the booster pressure in the wall while we come and get the pressure to work the
00:09:50 come and get the pressure to work the pumps won't work for some reason so I didn't realize that the fire safety expert would come out and he knew had spent working systems so we learned that about that particular job and it was just basically he's always secured fire
00:10:02 just basically he's always secured fire lift what
00:10:05 lift what here we bring what we had specific roles so the BA crew would bring tulips r45 a tick the crew manager bring the highrise bag so just learning what I'm drilling
00:10:18 bag so just learning what I'm drilling into us what we do and what machine we like what stuff we'd bring with us to the bridgehead and what particular learning points taken from traductor did you apply when you came to fight the fire at Granville I didn't fight the
00:10:30 fire at Granville I didn't fight the fire Bertie a grant from myself so freezing that in a better way what learning points did you take from Trellick tower in terms of identifying the best firefighting equipment to
00:10:42 the best firefighting equipment to deployed Graham for it's hard to say because I didn't actually we didn't really put a fire out a growing field so that once we got war one to the fire at
00:10:53 that once we got war one to the fire at relic towers it was out within minutes but it's hard that's a hard push and smoke army answer I'm now turning onto the events on the night on the night of the 14th of June last year first of all
00:11:06 the 14th of June last year first of all it's right that you were driving the pump that's out for - on - yes right and that your crew manager was been Gallaher as well the other members of the crew were Harry Bettis and Jim wolf ndon and another whose name you can't remember
00:11:18 another whose name you can't remember that think it was Jeff Campbell we're and are you more certain that it was Jeff Campbell man yeah and I think it's a mash of record now but that you were mobilized at 115 yep you're on the road
00:11:30 mobilized at 115 yep you're on the road at 117 and you arrived at the scene at 126 does that sound right yeah and by the time you'd arrived at 126 the order of being made to make punched and ya
00:11:41 of being made to make punched and ya know if I can ask you to turn to page four of your statement and the first substantive paragraph on that page you
00:11:54 substantive paragraph on that page you say in penultimate sentence I thought it must have been cladding or something on the outside because this wouldn't happen on
00:12:02 on building yeah first of all given your answer previously you had previously fought fires and high-rise buildings which had external cladding that's right
00:12:13 which had external cladding that's right isn't it yeah and had Shepards caught in the most recent experience on foot and was it your view at the time I on the night of the 14th of June that the race
00:12:24 night of the 14th of June that the race and extent of the fire spread was in some way due to cladding yep and what was it about your knowledge of cladding that you thought it may be playing a role in the fire or the fire a
00:12:35 role in the fire or the fire a shepherd's bush was just one thought Lumis fire coming out of the window whereas the fire Granville it seemed that everything else was catching a lot
00:12:47 that everything else was catching a lot as well when a lot of reaction to the fire and was caught coming away whereas it was completely different a shepherd's fall given your experience of fighting
00:12:59 fall given your experience of fighting fires previously involving cladding on high-rise buildings on the night did you feel that you would be able to extinguish or contain the fire there grand for Hollywood yeah yeah and did
00:13:15 grand for Hollywood yeah yeah and did you communicate your views that cladding may be involved to a more senior officer and give advice as to how best to respond how best to fight the fire no why didn't you raise those points
00:13:29 no why didn't you raise those points with a more senior officer normally though it comes down from officers to us I'm not in control of the incident I was just pumping so he could see what I could see so he's further training
00:13:42 could see so he's further training better trained than I am to make them sort decisions can I next ask you questions about the turntable ladder itself again it's a massive record that the turntable lighters callsign is alpha
00:13:54 the turntable lighters callsign is alpha two one three instrument and it arrived on the scene at 1:32 does that sound right yep looking at page 4 of your witness statement looking at the final pair
00:14:06 pair in the first sentence you say when the planet internal ladder arrived at part right at the front of the tower by the main entrance and could I ask you to
00:14:17 main entrance and could I ask you to turn to tab C of the blue bubble in front of you yep and there hopefully you see alpha 2
00:14:31 yep and there hopefully you see alpha 2 1 3 parked in front of what I think is the East elevation of the tower that's not a correct direction of the sighting of great jit now could I ask you at this
00:14:43 of great jit now could I ask you at this point and Paul could ask you to turn up the LF be operational response report which is at LF be quadruple zero one nine one four underscore zero one one two
00:14:57 [Music]
00:15:01 and you'll see in the bottom box there mr. keen an explanation of a turntable ladder yep first of all is that photo to
00:15:12 ladder yep first of all is that photo to pick the type of turntable ladder that a 2 1 3 was right yep the commentary to the left of the photo says that the detachable cage can hold three people
00:15:24 detachable cage can hold three people apologies if this is a question regarding the obvious but would it be usual simply to have two firefighters in there to allow room for one person to be rescued yeah it depends on white as well
00:15:37 rescued yeah it depends on white as well really nothing assessment there's a maximum weight you can hold especially with the wall being charged as well that leads to it so the more weight and a front of the cage still lists or maneuverability you can actually do and the less it can go out so so in the
00:15:51 the less it can go out so so in the circumstances at groennfell where you're trying to get the maximum amount of water you know in your view what was the safe number of people that could be carried in that cage I'm the only one
00:16:02 carried in that cage I'm the only one yeah one yeah now this may answer the next question I want to ask you to what extent could the turntable ladder be used to carry out search and rescue on
00:16:13 used to carry out search and rescue on the night I mean if people could have got two windows they could have relatively got people out but see they their main focus was trying to put water onto the cladding it was on foil so that
00:16:24 onto the cladding it was on foil so that was initial actions of the turtle data [Music]
00:16:29 [Music] now you go on into your statement to say that my plan was to set up north Cairns with a water supply so it could feed the TL which could then put water on the
00:16:41 TL which could then put water on the building to stop the fire and that's it paid for the final paragraph fifth line now did you decide to do that off your own bat or were you directed to do I believe I was directed to though sir and can you member who directed you to do
00:16:52 can you member who directed you to do say I believe it is my talent and can you remember the words he use all the gist of the words he used tell me what hey I really just been taught to get good and pum ready for the teal
00:17:04 good and pum ready for the teal because he when I first arrived that the pump was in the way is right beyond a golf to seven one so there's no clear access for their turns over ladder to get into where it should have been no
00:17:16 get into where it should have been no you say at the end of that paragraph that there was a bit of chaos but it was normal controlled chaos I understand what you mean by chaos what was the element of control controlled clashes what are we stuck a Fargo term so
00:17:28 what are we stuck a Fargo term so although there's from the outside world it looked like it's pandemonium but we rushing around doing our jobs in up stuff that we normally do so it looks like he's that's a it's a real fog a
00:17:39 like he's that's a it's a real fog a term that control cars but there was loads of people screaming shouting but members of public around that time as well so it was no where there's the presence of control usually the salon
00:17:51 presence of control usually the salon exercising control who was the officer he was directing what you were to do and how to do it Mike Dowden and did he give what further
00:18:04 Mike Dowden and did he give what further instructions what detailed instructions did he give you as to how best to deploy the firefighting equipment that you had I've been seeing much after that to be fair it was just to set up the turntable ladder and a pump after that I didn't to
00:18:16 ladder and a pump after that I didn't to him the rest of the night can I ask you to turn over the page to page five of your statement and the first paragraph on that page third line down it states the pump ladder was
00:18:29 down it states the pump ladder was already using one hydrant and there was another hydrant fairly close to the pump but that had a really bad water supply and there's hardly any water coming out of it now so we can locate these two
00:18:40 of it now so we can locate these two hydrants and could ask Paul to turn off turn up extract from Barbara Lane's report the references.bbl a our quadruple zero double zero one to
00:18:52 quadruple zero double zero one to underscore eleven now mr. Keene are you able to help us identify first of all which hydrant was servicing the pump
00:19:03 which hydrant was servicing the pump ladder I've done it which one chefs in top node on and which one had the really bad water supply so as we're looking at
00:19:14 bad water supply so as we're looking at a building I take it a bottom parts east side is it yes yeah so the one that went really bad was the one that said hydrant no sign okay is that the one that I was really
00:19:27 okay is that the one that I was really bad the one that said hydrant no sign yeah but only three meters there are three that was a 100 in there so I'm sorry nothing see deficit over so the one that had 33 meters next to it now it
00:19:41 one that had 33 meters next to it now it may be easy if we turn to tab seed of the documents in front of you which is the sketch but you provided to support your witness statement which is at met
00:19:52 your witness statement which is at met triple zero one three zero five eight dash warned this waits like to come on the screen
00:20:04 and are you able to using the benefit of your own sketch identify the hydrant that was servicing the pump ladder oh I believe I drooled on the weather
00:20:17 oh I believe I drooled on the weather completa was plugged into to be fair I'll didn't set that up so I dunno where that was getting its water on oK you've gone to say in the first paragraph at the top of page 5 that I use the NDT to
00:20:29 the top of page 5 that I use the NDT to locate another hydrant with a good supply up on the main road I think it was on Grenville Road now if we can go back to the extract from the barber lane report yeah they are 12 underscore and
00:20:45 report yeah they are 12 underscore and Levin
00:20:51 the good hydrant that you located is that identified anywhere on that map I'm not sure if it's the one that says 23 meters because as I was trying to say there are other crews who are coming on
00:21:03 there are other crews who are coming on and they've actually plugged into the hydrant itself and tested it so I was done at the pump end of the operation bowling themself from the pump up towards the road so I'm not sure fist
00:21:14 towards the road so I'm not sure fist where it says 23 meters off use further up if I can help this may help if we can go back to your own sketch plan at met trouble 0 1 3 0 5 8 - 1
00:21:26 trouble 0 1 3 0 5 8 - 1 [Music]
00:21:33 does this sketch plan help you on sir yeah it shows it was further up Greenfield right but I don't know how far if there's more than one hydrogen on that location no doing you bet the best
00:21:45 that location no doing you bet the best you can now how long did it take between the TL arriving at the scene and for its start to come operational on firing water the tower might be 10 to 15
00:21:56 water the tower might be 10 to 15 minutes so if it arrived at 1:32 somewhere between 142 and 147 or thereabout maybe yeah it's hard to tell really in terms of the fire spread on
00:22:07 really in terms of the fire spread on the building itself are you now able to remember the extent to which the fire spread between the time the TL arrived and the time the TL became operational not really I remember as we was driving
00:22:19 not really I remember as we was driving to the ground for itself we driving up to it because clearly see it's free floors but actually trying to get to the building itself and gets the entrance and get to the building entrance did
00:22:31 and get to the building entrance did pretty much spread to whole space east side of the building one of the questions that you know us to be put to use what effect do you think the time taken to secure a water supply for the
00:22:45 taken to secure a water supply for the TL had on the effectiveness of the firefighting operation I don't know I mean once we got more one area didn't seem to do have you had very little effects when we was playing war in any
00:22:56 effects when we was playing war in any way so I don't know if you were to put Warren it's no no it would have made any difference if you'd have put a cover in G on it him before it would might would that made of any different sadhana now the next topic I want to talk to you
00:23:07 the next topic I want to talk to you about is the duration of the operation of the TL itself so for these purposes I like to take mr. Keane to some photos from Barbara lanes report they show the
00:23:18 from Barbara lanes report they show the building on fire so I think it's appropriate to provide a trigger warning not only to those here but those viewing online and else I think that would and if we just take 30 seconds for for that
00:23:29 if we just take 30 seconds for for that but whilst that time is taken by people if they want to move away could ask you the first question was the turntable ladder the only aerial appliance that was in use at this time at around 142
00:23:42 was in use at this time at around 142 and 147
00:23:43 and 147 I think that's probably sufficient time yes alright and have a look at these pictures that Paul might ask you to turn up photos from the barber lane report
00:23:57 up photos from the barber lane report quadruple zero double zero twelve underscore double zero one five and figure 17 11
00:24:12 now mr. Keane this is timed at 152
00:24:18 you'll see that an aerial appliance is identified using a very large white arrow yeah just for the sake of record can you confirm that that is the turntable ladder or not it does not our
00:24:30 turntable ladder or not it does not our turntable area and if we now turn to figure 17 point 12 which is over the page that as you see is timed at 154
00:24:46 page that as you see is timed at 154 again are you able to confirm whether the Aral appliance identified using the white arrow and encircled and the water stream encircled in the red circle was the turntable ladder doesn't turn so
00:24:57 the turntable ladder doesn't turn so we'll enter him finally could return to figure 17 point 13 which is just below
00:25:09 again this is timed at five minutes past 2:00 in the morning again are you able to confirm that the triple ladder identified there is from the turntable that yes crew manager Dan Harmon in a
00:25:21 that yes crew manager Dan Harmon in a cage and finally could I ask you to turn to figure 17 point 14 just over the page
00:25:32 that is a photograph time did 22 minutes past 2:00 in the morning and can you confirm that no error all appliance is
00:25:43 confirm that no error all appliance is apparent on that photo there's no real point on there now would it be fair to assume then that the the turntable ladder had stopped to up had stopped operations before 22 minutes past - no
00:25:57 operations before 22 minutes past - no because there was at one point h1 reversing it back to try and make a rescue from the south side of the building so in what in that picture my I've been definitely might been doing it
00:26:09 I've been definitely might been doing it in that that's what the bar don't know always a difficult question can you remember how soon after 147 but that attempted rescue took place I don't know
00:26:20 attempted rescue took place I don't know I do
00:26:21 I do clock know
00:26:28 turning now to back to your job operating HIPPA but the monitoring the pump rather could I turn back to tab see of the bundle and
00:26:39 I turn back to tab see of the bundle and the sketch plan appended to your statement yep which is met trouble zero one three zero five eight - war now can you help us a to one three is there
00:26:53 you help us a to one three is there identified in front of the East elevation yep whilst you're monitoring the pump do you have to stand close by to it throughout generally yeah and on what side where
00:27:06 generally yeah and on what side where were you standing or where were you so it's very using that Gulf 272 and you've got the two lines coming out the back no stand in there right and during the
00:27:18 stand in there right and during the course of the operation of the turntable ladder you stayed roughly at 13 which year and so throughout that you must have had a very clear view of the Eastern elevation of the tower yep and
00:27:30 Eastern elevation of the tower yep and you would be able to see that the extent of fire spread in as it went on and so presumably from that you were able to assess the effectiveness the firefighting operation using the
00:27:42 firefighting operation using the turntable ladder yeah and overall what was your assessment of the effectiveness I had any effect at all now I'll come on to the question of effectiveness in more
00:27:53 to the question of effectiveness in more detail later but if I can just deal finally with the operation of the turntable ladder itself at page 6 of your witness statement you say in the
00:28:05 your witness statement you say in the first substantive paragraph on that page line 2 although in ideal conditions the TR can extend to about 10 floors they could not get that high on this occasion
00:28:17 could not get that high on this occasion as it was as it was not a straight pitch they had to position the TR quite far back and their trees in the way so it was only reaching the 7th or 8th floor also debris such as cladding was falling
00:28:28 also debris such as cladding was falling down
00:28:30 down sometimes it was small bits but other times its massive pieces of plastic and rubber I'm sure I'm just going to ask mr. Keane to look at some further photos from dr. lanes report and so if I can
00:28:41 from dr. lanes report and so if I can give a further trigger warning they do say that the building on fire yes thank you but in the meantime Paul could you please set up again figure 17 point 11 I
00:28:57 think if you could show that now yes
00:29:07 now my questions here are directed to how far or high up the turntable ladder could reach dr. Lane has identified
00:29:18 could reach dr. Lane has identified level 9 as to where presumably the cage was from which the the water was fired would you agree that level 9 is the
00:29:30 would you agree that level 9 is the correct designation in that photograph I thought I can't see the bottom of the pitcher up so you can't count the floors at Farpoint I mean like if count down from 24 to and you know where it is that's what I'm doing it if we can turn
00:29:43 that's what I'm doing it if we can turn to this might be more helpful Barbara Lane 8 underscore 21 figure 13 point 14
00:30:07 that gives perhaps relatively speaking better perspective but is that does that photo show the full extent of the turn label turntable ladder the us fully
00:30:18 label turntable ladder the us fully extended gentleman and if dr. Lane is right it extends jersey's part your yeah thank you could you help us just on one
00:30:29 thank you could you help us just on one minor point of detail what is the distance between the tower and those trees sometimes perspective on photos isn't ideal can you remember maybe 7
00:30:41 isn't ideal can you remember maybe 7 meters 8 meters the turn their bladders about 3 meters wide of leaf not the actual cage the issuing chassis now page 6 on the second substantive
00:30:53 page 6 on the second substantive paragraph of that page you say this after a while it became impossible for the TL to remain in that position it was too dangerous for the operators at the top and bottom as the debris was
00:31:04 top and bottom as the debris was crashing down around them also the machine was getting damaged as the debris was smashing into it it was best to move it out the way I don't know if it's having much effect anyway they were trying to put water on to the fire but
00:31:16 trying to put water on to the fire but it was just pissing in the wind hardly making any difference at all I've never seen it like that before now looking at the various elements within that particular paragraph you say you
00:31:28 that particular paragraph you say you don't know who made the order to withdraw the turntable ladder but who usually about seniority of officer would usually make that type of order it's between their watch manager and the crew
00:31:39 between their watch manager and the crew manager in charge of the machine between them - it would normally be a joint decision not all watch managers know the effectiveness of the other machines because of Seawatch manager from North Korea and you've got two machines which
00:31:51 Korea and you've got two machines which are standard other stations I've had and you've got FIU whose station and seal turn turns out ladder so most stations don't know the effectiveness off these
00:32:02 don't know the effectiveness off these machines and what they can do and what they can't do in the extent of their capabilities so therefore they were drawn on the information from the crew manager and asked him what he thinks is if it's effective or not and then
00:32:13 if it's effective or not and then they'll make a decision together so the reasons you give there in your statement they're the reasons that you assumed to be correct removing the turntable ladder as opposed to repeating
00:32:24 turntable ladder as opposed to repeating the reasons that you were informed up on the night well I was standing close by to Chris Reynolds who was actually operating here from the bottom and he said that it was too dangerous so this well got my information from and
00:32:36 so this well got my information from and say do you think it was he who actually made the decision Chris Reynolds no could we look at your contemporaneous note now which is at
00:32:48 contemporaneous note now which is at quadruple zero double five nine three
00:32:55 and roughly half the way down that page you say tl was knocking flames back well
00:33:06 you say tl was knocking flames back well until it was too dangerous for crews as debris was falling everywhere I think
00:33:19 you could amplify
00:33:29 till was knocking flames back well until it was too dangerous for crews as debris is falling everywhere now looking at that statement there mr. Keene it looks
00:33:41 that statement there mr. Keene it looks like at the time so in the mediate aftermath of the fire you had a more positive view of the effectiveness of the turntable ladder firefighting operation is that a fair summary of that
00:33:53 operation is that a fair summary of that it might be I'm not sure if that was just washed tired or exhausted or it was just littered after one of the worst sheeps I've ever done so where he was
00:34:04 sheeps I've ever done so where he was knocking it back well until we got to Vienna tilt can reach you I'm not sure sure if you if you're unhappy about the
00:34:15 sure if you if you're unhappy about the effectiveness or dn't of the turn of the firefighting operation conducted from the turntable ladder did you communicate that to anyone on the night know is that
00:34:26 that to anyone on the night know is that something you'd ordinarily raised with and immediately senior officer but it was a crew manager in charge on the cage who had a bit of clear view and knew what was going on climbs her angle then I was and so you'd be content for the
00:34:38 I was and so you'd be content for the crew manager to see it was if the firefighting exercise was not as
00:34:49 firefighting exercise was not as effective as you'd wanted it to be by that stage in the evening when the piers have si started to cease operations over let's say 20 minutes past 2:00 in the
00:35:00 let's say 20 minutes past 2:00 in the morning would the turntable ladder have had any further utility for example for conducting search and rescue missions at that stage in the evening I mean it could have been well done I feel there
00:35:12 could have been well done I feel there was debris falling down everywhere so it was really dangerous for anyone to be in the cage to actually try and make a rescue in any way so I thought that was the decision to make that they wouldn't be used because it was actually too dangerous to put someone in a direct way
00:35:25 dangerous to put someone in a direct way of something falling on top of them thank you could I now ask you to turn back to page 6 of your witness statements and apologies for jumping around this one and it's really the last paragraph on that page
00:35:38 paragraph on that page and you say on the second line I think there was someone hanging out a window but they couldn't physically get to the right position were you aware of the instructions in the background that let
00:35:50 instructions in the background that let that attempted rescue I wasn't aware of at a time but speaking to Chris Reynolds who's actually operating he told me afterwards sir they tried removing the
00:36:01 afterwards sir they tried removing the teal further back to try and get to that window but I couldn't reach him one final matter I'm just whilst we're discussing this did you any stage go into the tower
00:36:12 did you any stage go into the tower itself no the next topic I'd like to discuss with you is the grand monitor and its operation and you say at page 7
00:36:24 and its operation and you say at page 7 and of your statement that you're instructed by what manager Steve Collins to use the pump to supply the ground monitor positioned on top of the carport yeah first of all what is a ground
00:36:35 yeah first of all what is a ground monitor and what does it do it's just basically like a massive jet so it Chuck's a lot more war protect the projected fire than when you would be able to with a normal chair and in like
00:36:46 able to with a normal chair and in like you said less labour extensive so you have got to physically hold it you can pre in a position any would do its job and so it's it's very maneuverable is that a fair observation maneuver the ball piece obviously yeah
00:36:58 maneuver the ball piece obviously yeah once you emphasize you can move be around yeah and so there's one final photo I'd like to use a set of photos rather from dr. lanes report so again a further trigger warning if I can give 30
00:37:09 further trigger warning if I can give 30 seconds for people to make arrangements but Paul might I ask you to tear from dr. lanes report quadruple zero double zero twelve underscore 23 which
00:37:22 zero twelve underscore 23 which hopefully is figure 17.21
00:37:28 and so with your permission I can show that photo man is asking a basic question mr. keen you'll see in the
00:37:40 question mr. keen you'll see in the bottom right side of that photograph a red circle within which is identified a machine which is said to be a ground monitor is that right that's right you
00:37:54 could ask Paul to go back a page to figure 17 point 20 the clearer photos do they also show ground monitors yeah I
00:38:11 they also show ground monitors yeah I believe so yeah can you remember what time the ground monitor was set up it literally would have been only sort of a few minutes after the turntable was no longer in use so a very perfect harmony
00:38:25 longer in use so a very perfect harmony it just hung no you maybe help me the caption on that photograph seems to suggest that it's handheld hose
00:38:37 suggest that it's handheld hose I think that's resting on top of the slide just to give you a bit more projection and higher an angle you should ideally be on the ground there's
00:38:48 should ideally be on the ground there's a question asking whether it was a ground monitor or not that might not be because there's a 40 foot on my short those units thought there was an insult and slide isn't it yeah well that's the
00:39:00 and slide isn't it yeah well that's the question on the right it doesn't look like dashing handhold they're not holding it this nice fix on top of the slide
00:39:09 slide okay I can't see him holding notice please have right hand down sighs um can you just describe in your own words what a grey
00:39:18 a grey it looks like I have in my mind the penis is just basically a tripod year with a massive so big jet at the end of it so that big long yeah and so angled
00:39:31 it so that big long yeah and so angled out with three prongs to come out three three legs yeah yes just to give it a some sort by sir doesn't top level yeah yeah thinking I think from memory sir
00:39:42 yeah thinking I think from memory sir unfortunate it's not one of the bits of kit they're identified in the operational response report but um it may well be looking as to where it was positioned mr. keen and Paul clasp you
00:39:53 positioned mr. keen and Paul clasp you to turn up a further photo from dr. lanes report quadruple zero triple zero 8 underscore 24 figure 13 17
00:40:13 now you'll see in the second box from the bottom on the right hand side it says jet on South elevation observed at various times between Oh to 41 and no
00:40:24 various times between Oh to 41 and no 333 does that mark correctly the position of the grant monitor yeah in what position yet and the estimated
00:40:35 what position yet and the estimated period of its used between 241 and 333 does that sound about right to you bearing in mind your caveats regarding your recollection precise times was Myra clicking grandmother's being used for
00:40:47 clicking grandmother's being used for out the whole night until we were pretty much relieved a half a ton on o'clock in the morning can I go back slight just one step and looking at what the ground
00:40:58 one step and looking at what the ground monitor is my recollection was entirely incorrect and that the ground monitor is set out in the operational response reporting 800 and could pull put that up
00:41:09 reporting 800 and could pull put that up on the screen please
00:41:31 and they of the Unison Elks that is a Grande's yep the description thank you thank you very much
00:41:45 can you remember doing the best you can now what was the greatest extent the ground monsters reached what floor could it get to I'm not too sure from memory serves wild as if you have
00:41:57 from memory serves wild as if you have two pictures of the building you can clearly see how far I've reached up because of the forest British she didn't damage any part where the ground 100 was working how much higher than the 10th floor could the grand monster jet reach
00:42:08 floor could the grand monster jet reach if the pressure had been increased a 15 bar for example maybe two or three floors comparing the relative effectiveness of the turntable as
00:42:20 effectiveness of the turntable as against the grand monitor in your view which was the more effective bit of kit for first of all containing the fire I finly gram ah no but maybe I only reason
00:42:31 finly gram ah no but maybe I only reason being that their initial stages of fires it was burning up whereas a grandmother was petitioning from coming down so I don't know if they had any bearing on it at all not sure didn't that God could
00:42:43 at all not sure didn't that God could ask you to go back to your contemporaneous notes again which is met quadruple zero double 593 and you say I think it's six lines up from the bottom
00:42:55 we had trouble to supply Graham monitor and had to keep stopping supply to wait for tank to fill back up again it looks
00:43:06 for tank to fill back up again it looks as if at the time you were in the day after the furrow the day of the fire you were more negative about the effectiveness of the grad monitor
00:43:17 effectiveness of the grad monitor compared to the turntable ladder would that be a fair summary of what you say there I don't even and negative I just got feeling more of a negative attack on the supply the water it was the same
00:43:28 the supply the water it was the same with the table to be fair we had to keep waiting for the pump to fill up with water as well for that as well but obviously didn't happen not babies you see my mind because I've recent I've been doing that for longer
00:43:41 you mentioned that you considered that the grande monitor was the more effective device first stopping the fire from coming down did you communicate that view that assessment to any more senior officer all my senior officer was
00:43:54 senior officer all my senior officer was on the Internet I can and you can I upon him to communicate yeah yep thank you the next topic I'd like to consider is
00:44:05 the next topic I'd like to consider is the aerial ladder platform and first of all could I ask you to go to and Paul would you might bring up this document lfb quadruple zero one nine one four
00:44:17 lfb quadruple zero one nine one four underscore ninety four
00:44:27 I think it's the previous page
00:44:38 which relativity 94 as opposed to internal node 4 and the top box yeah
00:44:50 internal node 4 and the top box yeah does that show that your nice matter you do yep can you remember the callsign of the particular ALP not too sure market
00:45:01 the particular ALP not too sure market temporary notes when you started to assist and just trying to get some idea of the timeline here when you started to assist in relation to the ALP had the
00:45:12 assist in relation to the ALP had the gramm monitor stopped working or had someone deployed you to help out with the LLP can you remember now the grandmother was always in use I was as
00:45:23 grandmother was always in use I was as they were always going on to that I was trying to help lay our house for the AARP
00:45:29 AARP can you remember roughly what time of the night this help was provided when you build out the house no I mean it wouldn't it be cool logon when he our people on saying I've done I don't know
00:45:40 people on saying I've done I don't know if it was that I don't know like I said there's no big clock now can you remember whether the ALP you were assisting in relation to was the first ALP to attend or not the first actual
00:45:51 ALP to attend or not the first actual help I'm not too sure because I could only see sort of really maybe two so I was definitely these side in the summer south there was no other out in that area I don't know if there was one in the north or west and are you sure I
00:46:03 the north or west and are you sure I think in the statement you say you started to assist roughly between two and a half three hours into your attendance on the scene does that sound about right maybe yeah I see - ah - to be specific
00:46:15 maybe yeah I see - ah - to be specific okay if I could deal the karate to term rather to page 8 of your statement and the third paragraph on that page
00:46:27 and if I could also ask you to turn to the sketch behind Tab C and are you able to confirm which hydrant was servicing
00:46:39 to confirm which hydrant was servicing the ALP yes the the one that I originally tried using there hardly had any water coming out of that 33 meters no parking sign now if I can ask Paul to
00:46:51 no parking sign now if I can ask Paul to turn up your sketch met triple zero one three zero five eight
00:47:01 you can see just behind I believe their sorrows pump letter he says hydrant it was right beyond their Pamplona thank you and how far are you able to West
00:47:12 you and how far are you able to West made precise distance was the ALP from the tower itself I'll tell might be fifteen meters and you say in the penultimate line of this
00:47:23 you say in the penultimate line of this paragraph I should well if we can turn back to the statement and page eight and this third substantive paragraph on that page I'll read out the hydrant they were
00:47:35 page I'll read out the hydrant they were using as one I decided not to use my pump as the water supplies poor it did work a bit but from what I saw the water is just trickling out with hardly any pressure even though the connection work does not effective at all also they LP
00:47:47 does not effective at all also they LP was far back from the building due to the logistics of the situation it couldn't get close as it would be damaged by falling debris also there was grass all around the tower and you're not meant to put such heavy machinery on that surface because it could collapse
00:47:58 that surface because it could collapse also the access was blocked by two massive trees they were trying to go through the middle of them but it was hard it felt like a wasted effort could I ask you this may be a question of the
00:48:10 I ask you this may be a question of the obvious but why did it feel like a wasted effort to you at the time because I know there was hardly any water pressure in that hydrant and the man award in our ports here would use and
00:48:21 award in our ports here would use and once I'd say up it was just not those using a garden hose no various paragraphs on page age you refer to the problems you encountered with water pressure and
00:48:32 encountered with water pressure and falling damp debris damaging severing hoses on the night you know were you aware at the time that they were all back debris falling the problems with
00:48:43 back debris falling the problems with water pressure also causing difficulties for the dry riser within the tower itself a one initially not and did you communicate to any more senior officer
00:48:55 communicate to any more senior officer concerns about water pressure as it affected their ALP now I told obviously the crew manager it was in control of the tale that the water pressure is bad
00:49:06 the tale that the water pressure is bad and
00:49:07 and Steve Collins though there weren't much water pressure coming through on the gremlin herself I'll presume that the people above me knew the situation and say you you can't speak to what remedial
00:49:18 say you you can't speak to what remedial action there's more senior officers turn
00:49:24 the next point I'd like to discuss with is the positive ventilation system and if I could ask you for that purpose to turn to page nine and the bottom
00:49:36 turn to page nine and the bottom paragraph on that page you say during another conversation I was told by someone that a positive ventilation system was tried halfway through the night but when they turned the fan on it
00:49:48 night but when they turned the fan on it just made the situation worse instead of clearing the smoke it made a smoky everywhere so they stopped using it do you remember who told you about the
00:50:01 you remember who told you about the difficulties that had been encountered no I mean it's a you generally notice stations around the Amish station then there was fully machines here so I'd seen people I've never seen in my life
00:50:12 seen people I've never seen in my life before so I don't know what whose gnomes will walk can you remember the circumstances in which you heard this account of the operation of the positive ventilation system could you see
00:50:23 ventilation system could you see unfolding so I could to see loads of smoke coming out and you just went up around the entrance of the main building and the Z was talking I was asking what was going on and I was told at the positive pavement PPV was being used
00:50:38 finally man now turned to the lightweight portable pump first of all in what circumstances with the lightweight portable pump usually be deployed it's shlocker it's a small
00:50:51 deployed it's shlocker it's a small version of our machine really can position use it in more axis like lifts or an floodings or if you can't get a machine in certain area you can use that as an intermediary pump so how heavy is
00:51:03 as an intermediary pump so how heavy is it
00:51:04 it I believe it's 84 kilos and so would you be able to carry it on your own or would you die you're not allowed to for health and safety reasons how many men would you steal how many men of all positions not for men sorry
00:51:21 men of all positions not for men sorry looking at page 10 of your witness statement the top paragraph you say
00:51:32 statement the top paragraph you say towards the end of the instant Gareth cook asked me if my pump could supply both the ground monitor and a lightweight portable pump the LW PP is a smaller version of my machine a square engine which weighs 80 kilograms water
00:51:44 engine which weighs 80 kilograms water was not reaching the top of the building the dry Rises so the plan was to install the L w PP inside the building did you discuss with cook why water wasn't reaching the top by the dry rice did he
00:51:58 reaching the top by the dry rice did he give you any further explanation as to why the l w PP was needed what I remember nuttin and so you did as you've told the century yeah just yeah generally the operation of the l w PP
00:52:13 generally the operation of the l w PP when it's in operation is it a constant flow of water or not or do are you dependent upon depends on the day and your get everything what you can come it's just basically a real life and so yeah it depends on what you're receiving
00:52:24 yeah it depends on what you're receiving in and what you can give to what that can provide assuming a full tank how long can an L w PP operate for it obviously again it depends on how much water you use and if you're using 200
00:52:35 water you use and if you're using 200 Foley is a minute assume that at the highest pressure how long were the jet five six minutes and what would and assuming adopting those assumptions
00:52:47 assuming adopting those assumptions still how long would it take for a tank to refill it depends all you're getting in again okay and again the pressure that nel WPP would normally operate upon
00:52:59 that nel WPP would normally operate upon would depend upon the particular circumstances yeah option point one sees for bah-bah-bah yeah and you get off you get a thousand liters a minute and presumably just for the avoidance of
00:53:11 presumably just for the avoidance of doubt you can increase the pressure on the old WPP as you could for the ground monitor yeah but it doesn't always give you more more because [Music]
00:53:32 could I just go back to the turntable ladder and really the operation of pressure there and can I ask you to go
00:53:43 pressure there and can I ask you to go back to page five in your statement and if this could be done the top of page six as well the bottom of page five and
00:53:54 six as well the bottom of page five and the top of page six you explained water flow and the pressure operation of the turntable ladder now before you reduce the pressure what was your view of the effectiveness of the jet being deployed from the
00:54:07 the jet being deployed from the turntable itself don't know if Santorum really remember back he sort of a blur Abernathy was having any effect or if it was working
00:54:18 was working I'm not too sure what's beyond his fear and after you change the strategy and reduce the pressure from ten to oh the reason why we change your basically we we was using all water so quickly so that's the reason what we changed it so
00:54:29 that's the reason what we changed it so before instead of giving the optimum pressure to have a good reach and in waiting again for the nurse you know what to be on him we decided to lower the pressure so you've got a constant flow war and how long did the water
00:54:42 flow war and how long did the water supply last four before the tank was emptied after you've decreased the pressure to eight or seven but slightly longer I mean I think I was just kissing them on the mouth statement I don't want
00:54:53 them on the mouth statement I don't want you to guess but can you give us even the mine uses lasting longer when we change it Bobby I don't know but then I went on I wasn't a minute so and again
00:55:05 went on I wasn't a minute so and again this may be a question that asks the office does reducing pressure reduce the height the jpn reach and looking at the tower itself how many did it reduce in terms of one
00:55:18 how many did it reduce in terms of one floor two floors using that as a gauge maybe one or two floors um look now where you have problems such as this is it the usual strategy to moderate pressure so as to achieve a greater more
00:55:30 pressure so as to achieve a greater more constant supply of water I'm not really had this sort of problem to be firm some it was simple unprecedented for me to prefer so and did you make the
00:55:41 to prefer so and did you make the decision to reduce the pressure yourself or did you consult with others or a more senior officer I spoke to the crew manager on the top of the cage and what did you say to him you remember now the gist of the words basically just rerun in our wall really quickly and how
00:55:54 rerun in our wall really quickly and how can we reduce of pressure so you get with constable one and what did he say so that try that yeah we've got some long lines a year we try that will you were who the incident commander was at
00:56:06 were who the incident commander was at this stage in the operation when you reduce the pressure on the time would have been still might doubt it and in your recollection what affected
00:56:17 your recollection what affected reduction of pressure have on the success in containing fire spread no a lot really it was just you had a constant flow of water and did you pass
00:56:29 constant flow of water and did you pass on your view that its efficacy and effectiveness wasn't up to much to any more senior officer no could ask why you wouldn't do that because they're my
00:56:40 wouldn't do that because they're my first line of line manager was actually in a cage so he was fully aware of it himself going back to the question of the lightweight portable pump would that
00:56:55 the lightweight portable pump would that type of would those pumps have been available earlier in the evening they're on every single not every single they're on every pump and would that be worn -
00:57:08 on every pump and would that be worn - how many would be carried on and every bump but obviously you the pump led it wouldn't at one because it's got different storage okay but an alpha - one - yep yeah and if they had been do
00:57:21 one - yep yeah and if they had been do you know when the lightweight portable pumps started to be deployed on on the night he was time you saw a pumping deployed it was really late you know or early in the morning sort of maybe five
00:57:32 early in the morning sort of maybe five or six o'clock might be later than I even if they'd been deployed earlier what effect do you think it would have had on containing fire spread leo and why'd you say that because if our
00:57:45 and why'd you say that because if our spirit wasn't externally like a pool pump was in the stairwells so I feel you needed to put more Warnie outside the building as well as inside thank you sir
00:57:56 building as well as inside thank you sir those are all the questions I have for mr. Kean it might be appropriate now to take a brillo just thinking we could have a great night and if you have any
00:58:07 have a great night and if you have any further questions after the break you can put them and if you don't well thank you to keep incentive on his way that was the plan so caught up no sir yes mr.
00:58:21 was the plan so caught up no sir yes mr. Kean we're gonna have a breakdown yeah I don't know whether mr. Kinnear will have some more questions for you after the break or not we do have to wait and see them so we'll sit again at 40 past 11:00
00:58:33 them so we'll sit again at 40 past 11:00 and then you'll we'll know whether there's more questions points say if you'd like to go to the ocean please don't talk to anyone else about your evidence all I need to do thanks so much
00:58:47 [Music] right 11:15 please
00:59:04 you
01:14:52 right mr. Kim's on his way I think they say
01:15:01 [Music]
01:15:40 [Music] ryousuke yep happy to continue yep not sure they're gonna be many questions no mr. Killer mr. Keane many thank for
01:15:51 no mr. Killer mr. Keane many thank for your patience just have two very brief questions first of all do you know how many LPS the lfp has in London secondly did you know that Gareth cook had been
01:16:04 did you know that Gareth cook had been appointed the water supply officer I'm not sure miss Keane that concludes the questions I have for you thank you very much sir
01:16:12 much sir well I didn't have any further questions so mr. Keane just remains to me - thank you very much for coming to give your evidence is very helpful seem to do and we're very grateful to you for coming to do it and that's it - a pretty good
01:16:24 do it and that's it - a pretty good thank you thank you very much thank you yes
01:16:32 [Music] no that was too clear what's next the final bit in relation to evidence for today's reading in of evidence in relation to five particular witnesses
01:16:44 relation to five particular witnesses you name me Alexandra Norman Debbie Rael Peter May Peter daddy and Sarah Russell the references in respective Alexandra Norman are met quadruple zero eight zero
01:16:55 Norman are met quadruple zero eight zero five eight nine four the statement respect for a contemporaneous note met quadruple zero five one double nine from respective miss Royale the reference for the statement is met quadruple zero
01:17:07 the statement is met quadruple zero seven six nine six in respect of her two exhibits met triple zero one three zero eight three and met triple zero one three eight to respect to mr. May
01:17:20 three eight to respect to mr. May relatively relativity reference of a statement is quadruple zero seven eight nine five contemporaneous note met triple zero one five double eight to respect to mr. duddy the statement
01:17:32 respect to mr. duddy the statement reference is met quadruple zero double seven eight seven and finally respected miss Russell the statement references met quadruple zero seven six nine eight so that deals with the evidence related
01:17:45 so that deals with the evidence related matters before you today and there are two points of housekeeping before we go to the housekeeping I wondered whether it would be helpful to people to know that the statements to which you referred will now form part of the
01:17:57 referred will now form part of the evidence before the inquiry and can and will be posted on the inquiries website so that anyone who wishes to read them can do so thank you sir yes it's turning
01:18:08 can do so thank you sir yes it's turning to housekeeping yes first of all I have an application on behalf of mr. millet its standard application I'm afraid that's to invite you to start at half past 9:00 tomorrow morning yes to allow
01:18:19 past 9:00 tomorrow morning yes to allow us to deal with earth all three witnesses that a timetable to be they've got quite a full timetable tomorrow haven't we it is Sir and it would be nice to complete it it would yes
01:18:31 nice to complete it it would yes and so with that in mind although I've no doubt that how fast 9 start is not congenial to everyone I think we should do that I'm great with we will sit at
01:18:42 do that I'm great with we will sit at half past 9:00 tomorrow and so the final element of housekeeping is that the intention is to publish next week's timetable today if it hasn't already been unpublished and it's hoped that the
01:18:54 been unpublished and it's hoped that the timetable for the week commencing the 30th of July will also be published if not today then certainly tomorrow good thank you very much so that concludes today's business and that's it for today right well thank you all very much it's
01:19:06 right well thank you all very much it's been a rather short day though I know that you can use the rest of it profitably and we'll resume tomorrow morning at half past 9:00 please thank you very much [Music]
01:19:25 you