London Fire Brigade firefighter testimony about rescue operations on the 16th floor, encountering severe smoke conditions, and attempting to locate trapped residents.
00:00:08 yes mr. stern is just coming back I think
00:00:43 good alright mr. stern septic continued good Thank You mr. Miller yes yes mr. towns thank you very much for coming back and we had a discussion at the beginning of your evidence about the
00:00:55 beginning of your evidence about the smoke coming out of the smoke vents that you very helpfully showed us were situated above the main entrance to the building when you arrived can I just ask you one very short question of building
00:01:08 you one very short question of building on that a little bit if you go to your statement page 5 you'll see in the second paragraph there five lines down
00:01:19 second paragraph there five lines down from the start that you say there was definitely vents on the entrance pumping out light gray smoke at the time and I just want to just get your understanding
00:01:32 just want to just get your understanding we all met your recollection of what was happening when you use the word pumping when you use the word pumping are you do you remember that the smoke was actually being pushed out or whether it was doing
00:01:44 being pushed out or whether it was doing something else the best way to try and explain it from sitting in our vigil trying to visualize and remember it was just smoke coming out of the vents right
00:01:55 just smoke coming out of the vents right use the word pump just to try my best to explain as best as I could okay well I saw what I witnessed
00:02:05 visualize smoke coming out
00:02:16 we try again they've just helped me really I can visualize smoke seeping out of the vents and running up almost on the building on
00:02:28 and running up almost on the building on the front of the building I can also visualize smoke being puffed out away from the building to some extent tonight here so I would say it was being pushed out away from the
00:02:40 was being pushed out away from the building so there's a degree of force but there was yeah whatever not very much yes yeah does that help it does yes thank you very much thank you now before
00:02:52 thank you very much thank you now before the lunch break we were talking about you on the sixth floor and you came down to the fifth floor I think we've got to you back down to the fifth floor in
00:03:03 you back down to the fifth floor in terms of your journey in the building on the night can I just pick that up when you got down to the fifth floor I think you say that there was another crew there with a brunch and breaking in
00:03:15 there with a brunch and breaking in equipment and that's page nine at the bottom of the page at the bottom of the second pattern I suppose it's a third paragraph on page nine you see it says
00:03:29 paragraph on page nine you see it says when you came back down to the fifth a crew had come up with it now they branched and breaking in equipment to enter the fifth floor flat do you remember who they were that crew no did
00:03:41 remember who they were that crew no did you speak to them briefly yes what was the discussion do you remember they had a branch I believe they were just about to set into
00:03:52 believe they were just about to set into the riser or it had been set in I gave them my thermal imaging camera they were just about to make entry into that fifth floor flat so I let them carry on so I
00:04:04 floor flat so I let them carry on so I forgot to the sixth floor to set up in on signal okay did you tell them what you had seen on the sixth floor no
00:04:20 you say in the next paragraph so when I came back down to the fifth there was a
00:04:32 came back down to the fifth there was a crew there with a branch and breaking in equipment we were just charging the jet and were and we were about to go in to be cleared do you mean you and firefighter Hipple yes yeah well would
00:04:45 firefighter Hipple yes yeah well would have been partner yes it was before not not not not the other crew you just spoken to no for memory I can't remember us or that crew that will charging up
00:04:57 us or that crew that will charging up the hose
00:04:58 the hose I do remember there was a crew there I gave them my phone engine camera and then I let them carry on right so they went in and you didn't yes and the top
00:05:12 went in and you didn't yes and the top of page 10 of your statement just following it through you say it wasn't a lot of conversation and you describe it can I have your thermal imaging camera
00:05:24 can I have your thermal imaging camera we're going in have you got everything yeah okay that that's about the some of it is it priests yeah summarizing it now you then say sorry sure just ask you did
00:05:37 you then say sorry sure just ask you did at that stage did you see a man coming out of the flat next to the flat into which that fire crew was going [Music]
00:05:49 [Music] firefighter HIPPA was said in his statement and indeed this morning that he he encountered eject that gentleman and and told him to leave the building do you remember that oh I must have not
00:06:00 do you remember that oh I must have not been there at that time okay do you remember at that stage seeing any other residents on the fifth floor no I can recall did you actually see that crew
00:06:12 recall did you actually see that crew make entry into the fifth into the fifth no we exited or I exited their Lobby before they breach that door right now you then say in the first main paragraph
00:06:23 you then say in the first main paragraph on page 10 I went back out into the foyer and into the stairwell what's the flavor again that must be a tap from the police obviously wrote their race thank
00:06:35 police obviously wrote their race thank man I I went back into stairwell okay so you left the fifth floor lobby through the door into the stairwell yes okay and you say I turned around on a young man who I now noted
00:06:47 who I now noted I now know his name was Sam and firefighter Justin a burn was was with us just just pausing there that's that's the stairwell outside the fifth floor
00:06:58 the stairwell outside the fifth floor flat is it from my remember yes how clearly do you remember those two gentlemen being there I remember seeing
00:07:10 gentlemen being there I remember seeing them I don't remember whether I can't quite remember if it was exactly outside the fifth or flat okay now Richard Hipple says in his statement
00:07:25 now Richard Hipple says in his statement and orally that he doesn't remember having there being anybody else there when you and he went out from the fifth floor lobby to go to the 16th floor I
00:07:37 floor lobby to go to the 16th floor I may be incorrect but I am definitely did come across fire fire burn and a resident somewhere on that stairwell now at the moment you
00:07:50 on that stairwell now at the moment you left to the fifth floor your intention was to go where at that point I believe well my attention was to go back up to this sixth floor to begin fire
00:08:01 this sixth floor to begin fire operations on the sixth floor Ryan but information then came down and there was someone trapped or someone needed rescuing or help on the 16th floor right now
00:08:19 do you remember whether firefighter O'Byrne was that was there in the stairwell outside the fifth floor when you left it to go I've never even been in a stairwell I can't quite remember what the floor armen right his
00:08:32 what the floor armen right his recollection is that he was on the stairwell around the 10th or 11th floor when he met the man you refer to as Sam
00:08:43 when he met the man you refer to as Sam and somebody else as his recollection can you help us with what you remember about that meeting I can't no I just remember seeing Justin Auburn with
00:08:56 remember seeing Justin Auburn with another resident I can't quite remember exactly what floor I was on or when I came across them but I did see them on a stairwell right and just to be clear the
00:09:08 stairwell right and just to be clear the man who has been identified as Sam says that when he got to the 11th floor he was gone the way down he met a fireman who was alone can you help with can you
00:09:21 who was alone can you help with can you help with that no sorry right so can you remember at what point after having left the fifth
00:09:33 what point after having left the fifth floor you discovered that you had to go that you discovered that there was someone on the 16th floor who needed assistance so Hagen yeah do you remember at what
00:09:45 so Hagen yeah do you remember at what point having left the fifth floor that there was someone on the 16th floor who needed your assistance within a minute or so it wasn't it wasn't a great at a time okay do you remember who it was who
00:09:57 time okay do you remember who it was who told you that there was someone on the 16th floor who needed needed help I don't remember how I got that information I I seem to my memory seemed so overlap a few in regards to the
00:10:10 so overlap a few in regards to the resident and Justin Oh burn or a radio traffic I can't quite remember probably right
00:10:25 in your contemporaneous notes if we can just look at those this mic might help you just prefer what you just said if you go to your contemporaneous notes you
00:10:37 you go to your contemporaneous notes you say on page two
00:10:46 that near the top say we close the door
00:10:56 and I informed eco of my findings we
00:11:04 something the sixth floor lobby does it say could you help me with what you wrote there then yes there's an exit it exited right exited the sixth floor lobby to be informed of a person trapped
00:11:17 lobby to be informed of a person trapped on the 16th floor I can't remember who told me this we proceeded to the 16th floor now those were contemporaneous notes but you were tired when you wrote
00:11:28 notes but you were tired when you wrote them I understand I understand that looking at those notes first of all do you remember whether it was the fifth floor that you were leaving when you discovered you have to go to the 16th
00:11:40 discovered you have to go to the 16th floor or the sixth floor I can't sorry ok and when you got the information to go to the 16th floor you say in your notes you can't remember who told you
00:11:51 notes you can't remember who told you this look looking back on in EIU's do you still not remember yeah to this they are still calm right first so when you come to your statement to page 10 where
00:12:03 come to your statement to page 10 where you say I went back out into the foyer and into the stairwell I turned around and the young man who I now know his name was Sam and firefighter Justin there Byrne was with us looking back on
00:12:14 there Byrne was with us looking back on it is that right I have my memory I have a vivid memory of being told that my again I can't remember from who I think
00:12:26 again I can't remember from who I think that's being mixed up with maybe what justin has told me after the incident I'm not sure well that the information that I received is as as what I said yeah ok
00:12:41 [Music] d okay on your route up to the 16th floor did you stop from the fifth floor did you stop in at the sixth floor do
00:12:52 did you stop in at the sixth floor do you remember I can't necessary okay when you went up to the 16th floor were you with anybody far far hippo yep all the time we was
00:13:03 far far hippo yep all the time we was going up together where wise in front or behind that our client I just I just know he was coming up with me okay do you remember on the way up meeting firefighter Oh burn
00:13:15 firefighter Oh burn yeah yes do you remember roughly where no sorry okay do you remember when you did meet him whether he was alone or with somebody III thought he was with somebody okay okay and can you describe
00:13:31 somebody okay okay and can you describe that somebody I can't sorry I put it must think my client right I mean he was
00:13:44 must think my client right I mean he was a male it was a mouth roughly what age 20 and above I think yeah a hoodie on that I saw like I don't know whether
00:13:56 that I saw like I don't know whether that's mix information for something else ups or later I'm not sure but okay was it possible that you saw them do you remember meeting somebody did two people
00:14:08 remember meeting somebody did two people I can't remember okay [Music]
00:14:15 [Music] now you say in your statement that you were told never mind I know a member who and it's in capital letters my dad is bedridden and he's trapped on
00:14:26 my dad is bedridden and he's trapped on the 16th floor and I need help to get out do you remember who told you that no do you remember where you were when you were told that - there while you were in
00:14:38 were told that - there while you were in the stairwell okay
00:14:45 do you remember being briefed by anybody in the bridgehead to go and make a risk to go and assist somebody on the 16th floor no when you were told what we've
00:15:00 floor no when you were told what we've read there my dad is bedridden and he's trapped on the 16th floor you were told that in the stairwell did you communicate that down to the bridgehead yes was your message received and
00:15:12 yes was your message received and understood yes okay when you communicated it to the bridgehead do you remember what you said along the lines of where reports of someone needing assistance in the sixteenth
00:15:23 needing assistance in the sixteenth floor and we're making our way up do you remember whether you use the words bedridden can't remember
00:15:41 when you had this discussion with this person do you remember whether you asked him whether there was a fire on the 16th floor I can't remember I don't think I did ok
00:15:55 did you have a discussion with firefighter O'Byrne on the stairs remember I would off know what that would have been off did he tell you
00:16:07 would have been off did he tell you anything about the conditions word or do you remember whether he did tell you anything about the conditions he'd encountered in the tower no because I remember being quite shocked at the conditions on 16th floor lobby right
00:16:26 that's when you got there yes sir yeah yep okay
00:16:30 yep okay on your way up and so think you've described it in your statement of page 10 in the third paragraph you say you remember people were now
00:16:43 you say you remember people were now coming out from a building do you remember people coming down past you on the staircase when you were going up to the 16th floor yes sir yeah do you remember how many they were no I don't know did you talk to them no did youth
00:16:57 know did you talk to them no did youth did you see whether or not they were suffering any signs of smoke inhalation not very noticed though did they give you any indication as to the conditions
00:17:09 you any indication as to the conditions higher up in the building no did they tell you where they come from nah right so you just passed them did you yes can you give us an idea of the numbers no more than 10 and what sort of
00:17:23 numbers no more than 10 and what sort of state were there but they panicking or were they they seemed quite calm walking down in the building and did that did the fact that you'd seen 210 or so people passing you on the stairs give
00:17:34 people passing you on the stairs give you any indication of the conditions higher up in the tower no and on their way up
00:17:42 way up what was the air in the staircase like clear well it was it clear all the way up yes okay and did you open the door to the lobbies on your way up to check the
00:17:53 the lobbies on your way up to check the conditions in the lobbies I remember to try and deal because it was quite hard to work out what floor we were on as there was a local indication than theirs there well so I would periodically check
00:18:05 there well so I would periodically check the lobbies just to see if I could see the floor number on there near the lift and where I did check there was none of the lobbies were smart logs right and
00:18:18 the lobbies were smart logs right and you say that your evidence and it's an individual statement as well that you would periodically check because there was no clear indication on the stairwell can you describe for us
00:18:29 can you describe for us what what was there it was there a difficulty in identifying what floor you were on yes I don't remember seeing any numbers on the stairwell personally okay
00:18:41 numbers on the stairwell personally okay you say you don't remember seeing any numbers did what was it that prompted you to check in the lobbies to see what floor you were on because there was no numbers on the stairwell so the only
00:18:53 numbers on the stairwell so the only well to check is to hopefully see the numbers on the lift lobby which I'm hoping that would have the numbers on them which they did did that process of having to check in the lobbies for the floor mats slay you down in any way five
00:19:07 floor mats slay you down in any way five mayor of seconds but yes it will slow us down you know did it to your remember recollection impede get in the way of your general firefighting operations
00:19:18 your general firefighting operations during the night check in the lobbies know the number of the difficulties you had with identifying which floor you were on did that get in the way of your firefighting operations well yeah it
00:19:31 firefighting operations well yeah it made it difficult for me myself to know what floor I was on so I are on the enter the building once off that be a where so yes it was it was there difficulty and in your experience was
00:19:45 difficulty and in your experience was visit common or uncommon to encounter numbering systems or no numbering that you did on that night with a cleanser from my experience you'll be there's normally an indication or what floor
00:19:56 normally an indication or what floor you're on yeah unless there were all right
00:20:05 now just go back to the question of these residents again occupants coming back down past you what did you think they were doing when they were coming down leaving the building did you think they were evacuating some people over
00:20:19 they were evacuating some people over cautious and some you know we've been two incidents many incidents before where an alarm will sound or they hear fire engines and they want to leave and they leave I wouldn't stop them did did you have
00:20:31 I wouldn't stop them did did you have any thoughts about why they thought it was better to leave not at that time though okay maybe then you you get to the 16th floor and you say at the bottom
00:20:45 the 16th floor and you say at the bottom of page 10 doohickey HIPPA was in front of you I'm summarizing this and then you
00:20:58 of you I'm summarizing this and then you got in front of him changing positions so I opened the door to the 16th first to see the smoke I believe Justin was by himself at the time son must have been behind now just
00:21:10 time son must have been behind now just to get a lot to get a mental I want to get your mental picture if I if I can doing the best he can with your recollection who arrived at the 16th floor lobby door first
00:21:21 floor lobby door first I open the door first I definitely remember that right I can't remember who got there I'm assuming I was there first I may have been wrong because I open the door first so I can't quite remember
00:21:33 door first so I can't quite remember exactly who got to that lobby first why definitely open that lobby door first right
00:21:46 do you remember when you arrived there at the 16th floor where Richard Hipple was by that point I was human he was
00:22:00 was by that point I was human he was there there already owns me I can't I can't remember I remember opening the door and I knew Dicky where if I thought hippo was there right okay and the the
00:22:11 hippo was there right okay and the the male you refer to as Sam do you remember where he was when you arrived at the 16th floor no no do you remember where Justin O'Byrne was when you arrived at
00:22:23 Justin O'Byrne was when you arrived at the 16th floor hey we've been behind us some somewhere on staircases you say he was alone you believe he was by himself so what does that mean he either left the resident that he was
00:22:34 he either left the resident that he was with at some stage right
00:22:42 you see oh sorry is that a message to ask you this question just to clarify it for lines up from the bottom of that page it says Justin doesn't all Ben who is that yeah no that's again I think that's a
00:22:54 yeah no that's again I think that's a typo should be Justin Oh burn now rich of Hipple mentions the fact that on the
00:23:06 of Hipple mentions the fact that on the way up he encountered firefighter a burn but not Sam deep do you know recalling
00:23:17 but not Sam deep do you know recalling your arrival on the 16th floor at what point you'd encountered Sam okay
00:23:28 now on arrival Richard Hipple says that the lobby door was open and black smoke was coming out and he remembers that the
00:23:40 was coming out and he remembers that the lobby door was being held open by a man
00:23:45 but never mind about whether he is Sam or not he remembers a man holding the lobby door open when he arrived did you see him arrive at the 16th floor I can't
00:23:56 see him arrive at the 16th floor I can't remember I don't remember seeing anyone holding that lobby door open right and just to complete that picture the man who is Sam Daniels says that he and
00:24:08 who is Sam Daniels says that he and firefighter O'Byrne didn't go up to the 16th floor they waited on a lower floor and you and Richard Apple came back down to them later ok can you comment on that I just remember seeing fire fall burn
00:24:26 I just remember seeing fire fall burn quite soon after we actually the 16th floor lobby right I can't tell you whether that was right outside or the number of floors down right
00:24:44 now in
00:24:48 the third paragraph on page 10 of your statement a little bit higher up from where we were you say it's about halfway
00:25:00 where we were you say it's about halfway down that paragraph when I opened the door that Lobby was like 10 smoke logged floor to ceiling so I shut the door
00:25:12 floor to ceiling so I shut the door what's what do you mean by like 10 so I'm like floor 10 or the police officer that was interviewing me one of the range of smoke log in between zero being clear 10 being the worst
00:25:23 zero being clear 10 being the worst possible so it was a 10 it was smoke doctor floor-to-ceiling like smoke eye surgery thank you and you say I shut the door and didn't know if it was the 16
00:25:34 door and didn't know if it was the 16 that we counted hoping it was correct and then you say but we confirmed it with Sam who had followed us out now you're you're unclear in your recollection now about whether this
00:25:45 recollection now about whether this gentleman Sam was with you at all do you remember him first of all whether you did confirm that it was the 16th floor with anybody my remember confirming it was someone
00:25:57 my remember confirming it was someone but since that incident I have spoken to other firefighters and Justin so I don't know wherever I'm mixing my memory up for from what he's said or done so I
00:26:10 for from what he's said or done so I don't know who I don't know if it was the resident in question I remember trying to confirm it with someone I believed I fought or someone there I may be mistaken of the reason I'm Airi
00:26:22 be mistaken of the reason I'm Airi playing tricks on me but I I did trying or spoke to someone to confirm if this was a city might have even been far far HIPAA I don't know right right
00:26:35 because when you say we confirmed it with Sam in your statement in in unqualified terms I think what you're now saying is you can't actually remember yes okay and then you having
00:26:53 remember yes okay and then you having seen the smoke floor-to-ceiling I think you say did that prompt any thoughts in your mind about fire spread but what had happened with the fire he shots me we're
00:27:05 happened with the fire he shots me we're 12 floors above the floor floor with the lobby being smoke locked at that density at that speed I couldn't I couldn't rationalize it it made no sense to me
00:27:17 rationalize it it made no sense to me yes you would expect those kind of conditions to be like smoke - they kind of present something we call a backdraft conditions where I can do the compartments oxygen-deprived so the
00:27:29 compartments oxygen-deprived so the smoke gets really fitted and it should be really hot it wasn't hot it was just extremely thick smoke right so yes it did concern me did you have any thoughts about about compartment ation about
00:27:42 about about compartment ation about whether it was holding in Grandville town at that point I couldn't explain what happened you shouldn't really get that kind of smoke in a lobby area like that you would expect you know some kind
00:27:54 that you would expect you know some kind of compartment ation within the flats to keep that smoke where it is so I just couldn't explain it right did you have a discussion with Richard Hipple about
00:28:06 discussion with Richard Hipple about what you were seeing in front of you we didn't have time I still thought someone unaccounted for that clearly now needed help there was no time to sit in front and talk about it we had to do something
00:28:17 and talk about it we had to do something about what we had did you you say you were shocked did you did you radio done to the bridgehead to tell them what was going on on my way up I try to make
00:28:29 going on on my way up I try to make contact with the bridge had a number of times with my Barre set and switching to my handheld radio with no joy right
00:28:47 when you went into the sixteenth floor lobby you say at the top of page 11 six lines down you say definitely we need to make a rescue here because that smokes
00:28:58 make a rescue here because that smokes pretty bad and then you say he was probably early 20s late teens I couldn't tell his face was quite covered then you go on to describe the man you say was
00:29:10 go on to describe the man you say was there again how confident are you having discussed your recollections with me so
00:29:21 discussed your recollections with me so afternoon about whether this man that you were seeing was actually on that floor confer I remember seeing them at some point once there well I can't quite
00:29:32 some point once there well I can't quite place it whereabouts right and then in the next paragraph you say before we enter the lobby on the 16th floor I asked him where the flat was and he said to the right of the door again how well
00:29:46 to the right of the door again how well do you recall that conversation I remember speaking to someone to try and get information aware we need to go what flat we need to go to I don't but I
00:29:58 flat we need to go to I don't but I really can't remember I was given a flat number I just remember being pointed in the direction to the right of the lobby I remember hearing that or someone telling me that's where we need to go to the right of the lobby door and that's
00:30:12 the right of the lobby door and that's what I took right do you remember who pointed you in that direction I've seen I thought it was the resident so I may be wrong I'm calm core I'm obviously
00:30:23 be wrong I'm calm core I'm obviously wrong but someone told me that's where I needed to go do you know where firefighter burn was at this stage no no it was he wasn't with you was he I don't remember seeing well it's hard because I
00:30:35 remember seeing well it's hard because I remember seeing him coming out and I don't know if my memories getting confused between going in and coming out or I just that information was passed on to me at some point right
00:30:48 to me at some point right now I should just put this to you that that's Sam Sam Daniels who's the son of the person who needed rescuing on on
00:31:00 the person who needed rescuing on on that floor but says that he gave the floor and flat number to the firefighter with whom he was waiting on the 11th floor in the stairwell that's what he remembers and not to the firefighters
00:31:14 remembers and not to the firefighters who actually went into the 16th floor that's his recollection having me having told you that does that help you with your recollection no this is the hit
00:31:25 your recollection no this is the hit confuses me even more right seeing the smoke and thinking you need to make a rescue did you have any thoughts about whether other people on the floor or
00:31:36 whether other people on the floor or indeed all people on that floor should be told to evacuate I was to be honest I was quite task focus on rescuing Sam's
00:31:51 was quite task focus on rescuing Sam's dad at that time from the information we were given so that's what I wanted to do right and until I can get to the flat and maybe a reassess the flat reassess
00:32:03 and maybe a reassess the flat reassess the situation that was what I was aiming to do now you enter the lobby and you
00:32:15 to do now you enter the lobby and you say in your statement on page 11 in the third paragraph fourth line down you say when I first went in I went as low as possible I was literally on my belly I went I fully
00:32:27 literally on my belly I went I fully went into the foyer when I felt a body that was kneeling over so I stood up he was quite he was light so I put my hand run in the picked him up um at that
00:32:38 run in the picked him up um at that stage was Richard HIPPA in front of you or behind you behind me okay at that stage I think you had no water with you did you yes what did you think it was safe to enter the lobby given what you could see
00:32:50 the lobby given what you could see without water it wasn't safe but we have to attempt to make a rescues it's what we dared to do okay now the body that you say was kneeling over you I think they want to say you
00:33:05 over you I think they want to say you brought him out he was actually conscious his eyes were wide open and he was in a state of shock did you did you carry him out or did you stand him up I
00:33:16 carry him out or did you stand him up I stood him up and I ever steps back and Dicky guided him out or Dicky guided me out oh sorry Wi-Fi hippo vibe from me out
00:33:26 out yeah I don't need to carry the casualty he stood up and walked right now you say that's how we found out that it was ever Devon from flat 134 that we rescued in
00:33:38 Devon from flat 134 that we rescued in the foyer from when he tried to get out from his flat yeah it's a contact source number of months later we came in contact with mr. divan
00:33:49 later we came in contact with mr. divan who told us the story and the timeline fits
00:33:53 fits that was the one that rescued him on the 16th floor lobby okay so at the time you got this gentleman out off that floor did you know who he was no did you know
00:34:04 did you know who he was no did you know what flat he'd come from no did you ask him anything that it didn't have a chance to believe the arson if he was almost I've Emil fire Hipple ask if he's
00:34:15 almost I've Emil fire Hipple ask if he's okay I'm if I knew it he was going downstairs right did you understand or did you have any thoughts about whether the this gentleman mr. Devon as he
00:34:28 the this gentleman mr. Devon as he turned out to be was the person that you'd been sent up to assist no when you came back out into the stairwell would mr. Devon because you say you took him
00:34:41 mr. Devon because you say you took him out
00:34:44 you say actually that's good let's get to your statement it's page 11 in the second last paragraph on that page you say the lobby door got shut behind us and we're all in the stairwell we
00:34:56 and we're all in the stairwell we quickly ask for you all right he said yeah can you make your way out he said yeah and he was gone he just ran down just bolting down the stairs okay first of all who's the where who's the we Xion far-far hippo but
00:35:09 who's the we Xion far-far hippo but anybody else know I can remember and at that stage did you ask him about which
00:35:22 that stage did you ask him about which flat had come from I didn't have a chance
00:35:25 chance he just ran downstairs at that point did you think that that gentleman was the person know the clothes that are was it
00:35:38 person know the clothes that are was it told that the person we were trying to rescue his bedridden right so assumed he was standing that it was not him right you said earlier you don't remember who told you that the person you were going
00:35:49 told you that the person you were going to rescue is bedridden yes so okay so you thought is this right tell me if this is right or don't put words in your mouth that you thought that you've done you've made a rescue but it wasn't the bedridden person you'd come up to rescue
00:36:01 bedridden person you'd come up to rescue that was my son chase your assumption okay at that stage just took your out in the stairwell with Richard Hippel did you do you try and radio down again to the bridge head no you didn't why is
00:36:12 the bridge head no you didn't why is that
00:36:12 that I knew the radio comms were working in that stage so I just didn't probably trying again I did try again in the lobby later on but right at that stage I don't think I
00:36:24 but right at that stage I don't think I did okay so you go back into the sixteenth floor lobby as you say in your statement before we will you do that you say at the bottom of page 11 Sam was
00:36:35 say at the bottom of page 11 Sam was still in the stairwell we didn't have much time to do with really do anything else again in the light of the evidence you've given today how good is your recollection abouts and
00:36:46 how good is your recollection abouts and being in the stairwell again now I don't know where ever I've taken that from speaking to colleagues like you know you
00:36:58 in page 12 on page 12 of your statement at the top you say firefighter Hitler was now at the door Dicky went first following the right-hand wall it goes on
00:37:10 following the right-hand wall it goes on for a bit this is your I think your description of you re-entering the 16th floor is is that right yes okay why did you go back into the 16th floor I still
00:37:22 you go back into the 16th floor I still wanted to make a rescue right did you have a discussion with Richard Hipple about still having to make a rescue I can't remember right
00:37:37 did you know which flat you had to go to to make the rescue I don't think I did now how are you going to do it search everywhere we could write you say
00:37:52 search everywhere we could write you say eight lines down all say from the top of page 12
00:37:57 page 12 I tried as well we couldn't work out where it was and it was taking too long it was heavily smoke logged we checked the door it was unlocked which door is
00:38:09 the door it was unlocked which door is that remember the first flat we came to so we follow the right-hand wall which took us past the bin shoe background to the first floor I tried to check the door to get a point of reference clearly
00:38:21 door to get a point of reference clearly couldn't see the door as extremely smart log so I tried to feel the numbers or we try to feel from numbers I couldn't find any numbers on the door that time from what I remember okay and just the sisters if you can't
00:38:36 okay and just the sisters if you can't read by reference to one of your exhibits Jas 3 which is M et triple 0 1 6 8 9 3 where I think you've marked pro
00:38:49 6 8 9 3 where I think you've marked pro forma plan of the building
00:38:57 would you just show us where on this plan the flat was that you checked by reference to when you say we opened the door to that flat yeah I think I've got those numbers the wrong way around but
00:39:09 those numbers the wrong way around but it was a we entered where I've wrote one three four I see okay so you've come in from the stairs follow the right-hand wall around
00:39:22 stairs follow the right-hand wall around pass the bin chute and what you marked is flat one three four which i think is one three six yes is the one you you tried the door off did you yes right and
00:39:35 tried the door off did you yes right and then the description that you give us on page twelve and indeed thirteen is all of your search of flat 136 yes okay do
00:39:51 of your search of flat 136 yes okay do you can you tell us how far you went into the flat a few meters the conditions change from the lobby being very smart logged with no heat so when
00:40:03 very smart logged with no heat so when we enter the flat very smoke logged with extreme heat so they can just interchange very quickly okay and you you say the second paragraph on page 12 are in the first
00:40:14 paragraph on page 12 are in the first line that the heat was like enough that to compare it to another like an oven well yeah because it was all around us it wasn't it wasn't a ceiling it was as long as I went it was hot right and you
00:40:26 long as I went it was hot right and you were feeling that through your PPE way yes right
00:40:32 and you say there was overpressure in the flat yeah I assume that simply because a door I was Dicky winning their fourth win and
00:40:43 I was Dicky winning their fourth win and if that first so i'm as i cleared behind them
00:40:48 them I remember the door closing behind me so I with with that heat I thought it was a bit of pressure pushing that door shut but it could have been a self closing door I don't know but I remember at the
00:41:00 door I don't know but I remember at the door closing and having me to open the door when we exited the flat right and
00:41:11 door when we exited the flat right and then you decided that you had to leave the flat because I say it wasn't safe yes at that stage the conditions will now get in too dangerous for us to be know of notify the media had you seen
00:41:23 know of notify the media had you seen any flames within the flat at that point no you could be Heat but I couldn't see any flames right could you formerly I any view about where the heat was coming from no it literally felt all around us
00:41:34 from no it literally felt all around us there wasn't I couldn't have a direction of heat it was just everywhere since we went in that flat it was hot very hot right he went to a few meters into the flat did you go into any of the rooms no
00:41:45 flat did you go into any of the rooms no right so how long would you say in terms of seconds or minutes were you in the flash minutes coppy minutes
00:41:56 you the top of page 13 of the statement you say in this in the first main
00:42:08 you say in this in the first main paragraph in the last sentence when I tried to rationalize how much smoke in the lobby area I couldn't so I had to be coming from somewhere were you in the flat at the time when you had these mental process when I started trying to
00:42:19 mental process when I started trying to piece together what was happening when we exited the flat I closed the door behind us and fire Hipple then began to go down the carry on on the wall to go
00:42:30 go down the carry on on the wall to go knock on the doors right so while he was doing that I stayed at the front door flat one three six that we went into and that gave me a few moments to try and work out what was going on I'd then
00:42:42 work out what was going on I'd then tried to contact the bridgehead again from both of radios even though no joy I couldn't work out why there's so much smoke in the foyer with no heat again
00:42:53 smoke in the foyer with no heat again the conditions didn't match up I expected a condition the conditions I thought in the flat made sense maybe there was of there's a fire in there lot of smoke or heat but it just didn't add up right okay
00:43:11 and you just described Richard Hipple knocking on doors do you remember which doors he knocked on so from where are standing that outside door one three six
00:43:22 standing that outside door one three six he carried on down that right-hand wall so I'm assuming he would have gone to that one three right did you because the smoke was thick on that floor could you see him at all no could you hear him I
00:43:35 see him at all no could you hear him I could hear him yes could you hit what was he doing kicking the doors well he was banging the doors but I were kicking them or hitting them extremely hard okay was he shouting I can't remember I hear
00:43:47 was he shouting I can't remember I hear his voice I don't know if shopping at me to make sure I could still hear him all shouting whoever's in the flat bar could hear him did you yourself make go around
00:44:01 hear him did you yourself make go around knocking on any of the time no I stay that's outside one door one three six until he came back like bacon but you
00:44:12 until he came back like bacon but you you say I think that you knocked
00:44:20 on on other doors that's the second main paragraph on page 13 then this maybe not
00:44:34 paragraph on page 13 then this maybe not you but third line down you say I've since learned that the two doors we banged on were one three five and then you go and say one three four you say we
00:44:45 you go and say one three four you say we banged on do you mean you or do you mean him yeah and to us as a team as one for a roving firefighter hit for picking
00:45:04 and in the second paragraph on that page you
00:45:13 I'm sorry third paragraph on that page you say you had a few minutes left of air I was definitely thinking at that point to go up but even if we went up
00:45:24 point to go up but even if we went up and all the lobbies were smoke logged we didn't have enough air to do anything with it the only safe option was to go back down and informed Brian O'Keefe of the Eco at the bridgehead of what we had done and hopefully get
00:45:36 of what we had done and hopefully get crews up to the 16th and above given the smoke logging in them in the lobby
00:45:49 smoke logging in them in the lobby how would you have assisted a resident who did happen to come out of any of the flats on the 16th floor in response to Richard Hipple smell the best of our abilities we will just have to get them
00:46:00 abilities we will just have to get them out as quick as possible carry them out if it was safe to leave them in their property you would have done that it would I would have to judge it on rhesus wrists reassess it on the
00:46:11 it on rhesus wrists reassess it on the situation if it arose right
00:46:22 in the third paragraph as we see on page 13 you've described getting back into the stairwell and you say I was as Idris
00:46:35 the stairwell and you say I was as Idris shainiel I definitely was thinking at that point to go up what do you mean by that well because I couldn't rationalize what was happening sixteenth floor I
00:46:47 what was happening sixteenth floor I would assume that something else would have been happening above that so if I had the resources I would have gone up to the higher floors right you were low on air and you had no water
00:46:59 you were low on air and you had no water yeah I know I know provisions to do that much so when you said I was thinking to go up do you mean that other firefighter should go up yes Wow I would off if I
00:47:11 should go up yes Wow I would off if I could if I if I had enough air I would have thought I was or not okay and now
00:47:26 you've then on page 14 in the third paragraph say I didn't see Sam and he was not in the staircase I remember
00:47:38 was not in the staircase I remember hoping he wasn't in the staircase because I couldn't find his dad I'm assuming that just in their burner taken him down now is that a thought you had at the time yes that is if it was a
00:47:50 at the time yes that is if it was a thought you had at the time but you could you just help me how did you know
00:48:04 could you just help me how did you know that it was his father who had needed assistance again my memory plays tricks on me saw I remember being helped told that information that someone needed
00:48:15 that information that someone needed rescuing 16th floor I assumed it was the person that was with Martha or a burn so I put two and two together I have this
00:48:26 I put two and two together I have this first time in my career I've ever tried to make a rescue and felt so I'm it was quite hard to go back down and tell him that that we couldn't rescue is there big cooking
00:48:43 do did you discuss with Richard Hipple your thought that the rescue had failed I don't believe I did I was trying to get through to the bridge Ed's because
00:48:55 get through to the bridge Ed's because that's quite vital information so I was on my radio pretty much all the way back down to the ground trying to get back to the bridge trying to get hold of him until well I didn't until we actually got down to the Bridget did you see Sam
00:49:07 got down to the Bridget did you see Sam I don't remember at all on exiting the 16th floor and between then and getting to the bridge shot I really don't remember right in the third paragraph on
00:49:22 remember right in the third paragraph on page 14 and just below the one I've just shown you you say I don't remember much smoke being in the stairwell I do remember people coming down the stairs from the floors above and you describe
00:49:33 from the floors above and you describe them do you remember whether they were suffering the effects of smoke I can't
00:49:45 suffering the effects of smoke I can't remember right you say in the second line of that paragraph I remember walking down the stairs and more people were coming up some elderly people some young people so we were just reassuring
00:49:57 young people so we were just reassuring them and walking down with them when you say coming up is that is that right yeah again that must have been a type was they were down there going down right there okay and how many people do you
00:50:09 there okay and how many people do you remember coming down at that stage what's your deck for sixth man folder five to ten right but they come all with a in the state they seemed pretty calm because no one was running so for
00:50:22 because no one was running so for instance how misses the fan left that Lobby was someone in shock the rest of them weren't acting like that they were just walking down stairs okay
00:50:36 now against what kind of pace did you go down did you run down or did you walk down leisurely here we was walking down from Britain promptly yes right okay
00:50:47 from Britain promptly yes right okay again I just put you something at Sam and his evidence in his witness statement and I Bellavia see have to explore his recollection with him in the same way but his recollection seems to be that you and Richard Hipple ran down
00:51:00 be that you and Richard Hipple ran down would that would that be right if iran-iraq I thought I've remembered trying I wanted to get to the bridge earth as quick as possible to relay that information yeah so if I ran around what
00:51:12 information yeah so if I ran around what I remember okay did you encounter any other firefighters coming up as you went down no I can remember no now you get
00:51:25 down no I can remember no now you get back to the bridgehead and I think on page 15 of your statement you describe that at the top of the page you say we went back to the bridgehead
00:51:36 you say we went back to the bridgehead at this point I noticed a little bit sense of urgency now things have been going on whilst we were on the 16th floor I shut my set down told Brian O'Keefe what we had done and what we saw
00:51:49 O'Keefe what we had done and what we saw I can't remember anything he said to me I just remember dick he was telling him some things now I've read that you I've got a few questions about that evidence
00:52:03 got a few questions about that evidence [Music]
00:52:05 [Music] first of all we have your end of where time just put this in a time context of 138 and 40 seconds would that be about about right in terms of the time you'd
00:52:16 about right in terms of the time you'd spend under air yeah it must be if that's what the telemetry says you say I noticed a little bit sense of urgency
00:52:28 noticed a little bit sense of urgency can you just explain that there's a reference it was busy right Bridget what did you see it was fire fires there was Brian you could tell Brian's now watch
00:52:41 Brian you could tell Brian's now watch my jerky for now he kicked up a gear he was starting to put some command structure and he needed people doing things it was there was a lot at that time now my radio I could hear radio traffic over my handheld radio so there
00:52:54 traffic over my handheld radio so there was things happening very quickly did was there a point on your descent down the tower when your handheld radio started to well no I just remember it when I shut down and then speaking to
00:53:07 when I shut down and then speaking to water and relief then I could start hearing radio traffic right do you remember seeing any and anybody at the
00:53:20 remember seeing any and anybody at the bridgehead writing information up on the wall no do you remember seeing or hearing anything about fire survival guidance being passed to the bridgehead no
00:53:34 what did you hear over the radio do you think and remember you know just a lot of chatter I don't remember exactly what it was
00:53:43 it was are you familiar with metabolic heat stress
00:53:47 stress yes are you familiar with the symptoms of it yes
00:53:50 of it yes have you experienced it in the past before Grenfell yes given that experience are you able to self diagnose as to whether or not you might have been suffering from metabolic heat stress no
00:54:03 suffering from metabolic heat stress no in the bridgehead because I was tired I was hot
00:54:07 was hot well he didn't take me out so I was also able to go back take off my set and grummons Karen working again so now you say in your statement of the second in
00:54:19 say in your statement of the second in the second scent of second line of page 15 I told Brian O'Keefe what we had done and what we saw do you remember where
00:54:30 and what we saw do you remember where Brian Hickey was standing when you spoke to him he was at a breach area it was at the moment we come down the steps onto the second floor lobby he was literally in front of the steps can you remember
00:54:44 in front of the steps can you remember exactly what you said to him I would have formed him of my findings or they told him what we did did you tell him about the extent of the smoke on the
00:54:56 about the extent of the smoke on the 16th floor in the lobby yes I were the focus did he say anything to you back about it I can't remember did you say anything to him about what you'd found
00:55:07 anything to him about what you'd found in the flat flat 136 well it's in his conditions I would obvious did you ever whether he said anything to you about that like I think I just said what I
00:55:18 that like I think I just said what I needed to say and he confirmed it did you tell him and if anything about whether the rescue that you had been intending to make was successful or not
00:55:30 intending to make was successful or not I told him about the rescue of mr. the fan and I did tell him that we were there was one person unaccountable right you remember that dear par then you
00:55:41 you remember that dear par then you remember that do you idea definite remember telling him that we was unsuccessful in a rescue do you remember telling watch manager O'Keefe that the person unaccounted for as you put it was
00:55:53 person unaccounted for as you put it was bed band I will hope I'm hope definitely were they telling there was a casualty there do you know what watch manager O'Keefe did with that information
00:56:05 O'Keefe did with that information no do you know whether he made a new deployment of be aware as to the 16th floor I wouldn't know I soon left their
00:56:16 floor I wouldn't know I soon left their bridgehead and you also say that this is again top of page 15 I just remembered Dickie was telling him some things did you hear what Dickie Hipple what's
00:56:29 did you hear what Dickie Hipple what's Richard Hipple was telling him no
00:56:37 okay
00:56:40 can I just ask you one or two questions about casualties can I just take you to page 18 of your statement you say in the
00:56:56 page 18 of your statement you say in the third main paragraph on that page we went back up to the bridgehead now just in terms of timing this is after you've left the tower yeah and had gone
00:57:08 you've left the tower yeah and had gone back to the bridgehead to assist with casualties and you you say in the second
00:57:19 casualties and you you say in the second line it was really busy casualties were coming out and there was a female casualty that was unconscious not breathing in that staging area outside of the foyer where the bridgehead was
00:57:30 of the foyer where the bridgehead was they needed help carrying her out first of all who was at the staging area with the casualty be a cruise do you remember
00:57:41 the casualty be a cruise do you remember who they were could you identify their mouths do you remember who the Veii is where you say they needed help carrying
00:57:53 where you say they needed help carrying her out whatever crews were on that mezzanine foyer area do you map unit are you able to help us with what kind of time this was no sorry okay
00:58:04 time this was no sorry okay doing the best you can having end of we're at about 138 was it minutes or hours after after that with this
00:58:15 hours after after that with this specific casualty I did a lot of running back and forth from the bridge out before this incident happened so when it comes to time I have no idea right
00:58:32 in the fourth line down you say I am the same officer who gave you the child picked her up are you able to identify that same officer is no sorry okay
00:58:51 you say on page 21 of your statement at
00:59:03 you say on page 21 of your statement at the top of the page that you had a shouting discussion with watch manager Williams from g35 Fulham he was on the
00:59:15 Williams from g35 Fulham he was on the staircase in the foyer do you know what he was doing when you had that discussion he was trying to he wanted me to get a member of the unarmed service
00:59:27 to get a member of the unarmed service into the building I believe there was two casualties there one maybe a child and then he wanted them to come and help CPR or somehow a medical service
00:59:44 did you see him writing information on the wall specific Lyman tonight right do you remember when the bridge had
00:59:55 do you remember when the bridge had moved down to the ground floor no it wasn't there at that stage they were still on the second floor on the second floor yes do you remember do you remember learning that the bridge had had moved to the third floor yes my
01:00:07 had moved to the third floor yes my Billy that was a lot later and I assume that was later after this incident you don't do you remember when it was Oh what time it moved to the ground for them now
01:00:24 after you have had your BA we're and left the tower and then come back in do you remember seeing or hearing or learning anything about how fast survival guidance information was being passed to the bridgehead no I remember
01:00:37 passed to the bridgehead no I remember during the night scene watch manager setting up on there being the real cop on it as I was running past them through the night but no I wasn't involved if FG
01:00:48 the night but no I wasn't involved if FG cause that's all that evening okay just going back to the sixteenth floor we had a discussion a minute ago or two about banging on all the doors and Richard Hipple banging on the doors
01:01:00 Hipple banging on the doors do you remember whether he banged on all the doors or just the two that you've identified I thought I clearly remember those two used I mentioned earlier partner if he did the other doors the
01:01:12 partner if he did the other doors the Corrib right
01:01:20 mr. stone thank you very much for your assistance I have no further questions for you I'm very grateful to you for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations thank you very much things there's no doubt in my
01:01:32 much things there's no doubt in my things mr. stern it's very helpful for us to hear your evidence about what was going on inside the tower and the conditions at different places when you were there so thank you very much indeed now before you leave mr. litt can I
01:01:45 now before you leave mr. litt can I release this witness yes absolutely thank you very much yes so thank you very much for coming
01:02:02 um mr. chairman we do have another witness this afternoon we do but that is your convenient time they fought bravely they would thank you yes they place roughly how long you might want to be with the next week this is going to be
01:02:14 with the next week this is going to be mr. Kinney as witness and he has to he has given me an assurance that it will not be more than an hour not sure what sort of assurance it is but no we shall find out well I'm going to say in twenty past three them thank you
01:02:40 you
01:14:42 nah mister can we go to see mr. Betances Oh God mara called him
01:15:07 [Music]
01:15:15 some mason city children
01:15:19 that isn't such a good to change
01:15:27 thank you very much with specialist sit down and make yourself comfortable first of all would you confirm your name for the record please my name is Harry bettin s'en thank you and first of all many thanks for coming today to give
01:15:39 many thanks for coming today to give evidence is very much appreciated first of all can you confirm you provided a statement which hopefully you can find in the tab the first tab in the blue folder in front of you yep and that
01:15:53 folder in front of you yep and that statement stated the 27th of November of last year which is correct and the contents are true to epistemology and behind the statement hopefully there is a contemporaneous note
01:16:11 yes and the contents of that document a true as well is that right yet to the best one resistor and have you read both those documents recently I have yes and do you contend that those documents
01:16:23 do you contend that those documents stand as your evidence to the inquiry yes mr. Beslan this afternoon I don't propose to take you through each and every line of your witness statement and note what I want to do is just pick out
01:16:34 note what I want to do is just pick out particular topics to discuss with you if that's all right yes now if any stage any my questions are unclear that's my fault ask me to rephrase them and I will do so to make them clearer now if we may start
01:16:46 to make them clearer now if we may start with the basics first of all you've now been a firefighter for two and a half years is that right is correct and at the time of the fire you were based at Paddington is that right yeah and that you are allocated to read watch as I am
01:16:58 you are allocated to read watch as I am and as at the 14th of June of last year you'd been in service for about 15 months or so that's correct yeah and on the night itself you were in alpha two one two Yallah
01:17:10 you were in alpha two one two Yallah back at a pump and that you were there together with crew manager Gallaher and firefighters keen wolf ndon and campbell is that right it's now a matter of
01:17:21 is that right it's now a matter of record but does it sound right that you were mobilized at 1:15 on the road at 1:17 and at the scene at 1:26 yeah sounds pretty much accurate now the
01:17:32 yeah sounds pretty much accurate now the first topic I'd like to discuss with you is your training and practical experience if that's all right first of all can we deal with your training whilst a training school yeah first of all when were you at training
01:17:43 first of all when were you at training school I started training school in February 2016 and is it right that the training period is last here a total of 11 weeks scratch it during that time
01:17:55 11 weeks scratch it during that time what training did you receive regarding high-rise fire fighting in the guys firefighting to document on it and you learn where to set the bridgehead up or quit when you need at the high-rise fire
01:18:07 quit when you need at the high-rise fire what you do will pump you is riding with regard to actual firefighting in a higher
01:18:13 higher didn't receive any and did you receive any instructional training as to what to do should compartment ation in high-rise buildings fail no and did you receive
01:18:24 buildings fail no and did you receive any training regarding the particular risks posed by cladding and fire on high-rise buildings now what training did you receive regarding the calendar effect for example you did a document on
01:18:37 effect for example you did a document on it and what the claim the effect is where the fire can jump cause you do a presentation in it but you won't actually see it live it'll be a like a presentation of computer and would that
01:18:48 presentation of computer and would that be the same in relation to instruction regarding vertical than lateral fire spread yep now could I ask you know about the training you've received since you've been at Paddington yeah what fire what
01:19:01 been at Paddington yeah what fire what training have you received there in relation to high-rise firefighting so we will train we drill quite a lot in the yard at least maybe to every Tauber we drill and then actually before the my
01:19:12 drill and then actually before the my grandfather day before we is on duty and we did do a high-rise drill so it's just like a combination drill where you'd be setting up ladders pitching the tio Santa Bridget up and then again
01:19:24 Santa Bridget up and then again everything to works it runs smoothly we do have a high-rise we know what row everyone has and what we're doing so it's a combination of lectures and practical exercises and who provides
01:19:35 practical exercises and who provides that training that be done by the watch manager and did you receive any training during your time at Paddington about what to do should compartment ation and flats and high-rise buildings fail no
01:19:47 flats and high-rise buildings fail no such now it's hard to do any real fire training because it out the facilities for and did you have any particular training in relation to the risks posed by cladding on high-rise building that and have you received any training
01:19:59 and have you received any training whilst you've been at Paddington regarding phenomena such as the qalander effect no during your time either a training school or a Paddington have you
01:20:10 training school or a Paddington have you been given instruction as to how to self-diagnose metabolic heat stress yeah and what are you trained to look out for just the signs of what it is so signs the
01:20:22 signs of what it is so signs the symptoms of headaches getting angry looking out for them is just a bit how to deal with it so call radio calling putting your hands in buckets of water it's quite a big thing especially when
01:20:33 it's quite a big thing especially when you're doing real fire training because even quite a few hot ways in a day so you're quite exposed to it thank you could I ask you to turn to page 18 one
01:20:44 could I ask you to turn to page 18 one eighth of your witness statement and in
01:20:55 eighth of your witness statement and in the second substantive paragraph fourth line down you say that on the day before you carried out a mock up high rise exercise just the day before rental tire fire yeah what did that training involve
01:21:08 fire yeah what did that training involve so it would just be formation enjoy the government put together to be turning up with the two trucks and everyone now in their roles so if we do have a high-rise then we know straight away when we get
01:21:20 then we know straight away when we get there and what we're doing so we simulated the first so the crew whatever Bridgette the other crew would then go to the Bridgette and then take the potato fur hose up to the fire floor and
01:21:32 potato fur hose up to the fire floor and also was putting up a cover inject this time we used the ground monitor as a covering jet and did the training involve how to deal with situations again when compartment ation fails you
01:21:43 again when compartment ation fails you know did the exercise involve simulating a partial or total evacuation of the residents of a high-rise building could
01:21:54 residents of a high-rise building could I ask you to turn to page four now of your statements and policies for jumping around
01:22:03 now page for the top line you refers the fact that you'd attended the fire at Trellick tower mr. keen mentioned
01:22:14 Trellick tower mr. keen mentioned yesterday that the Paddington red watch had gathered a number of learning points following that fire yeah but for you personally what did you learn from your experiences fighting the fire at Trellick tower that was my first ever
01:22:25 Trellick tower that was my first ever high-rise fire that choked ours so from anything that it was actually putting practice into what you've done so I learn how the bridgehead gets out actually on the job and also the
01:22:37 actually on the job and also the compartmentalization of a building worked at Shattuck towers there was a problem with the wet bar there it did take quite a bit of time for us to get water on it because it caught because of the compartment it stayed in that flat
01:22:48 the compartment it stayed in that flat thank you
01:22:49 thank you now the next topic I'd like to discuss with you is your entry into the tower and for these purposes might ask Paul to turn on CCTV tab warned which is Inc
01:23:00 turn on CCTV tab warned which is Inc Quinn tuple 0 to 2 warm now mr. Benson this is a still from CCTV camera four at the main entrance of the tower and it's timed at zero one 30:56
01:23:14 timed at zero one 30:56 now just for people who are looking at this online the correct timing unfortunately is obscured in the bottom left hand corner and it's a corrected according to an agreed methodology now
01:23:25 according to an agreed methodology now first of all do you recognize yourself in that still yeah and if you could point using the bigger screen above you which one you understand the first person near to the diamonds on my helmet
01:23:37 person near to the diamonds on my helmet thank you and who else is with you who was at the forefront of the photograph so that's crew man Joe Gallagher firefighter Campbell behind me I'm not sure the fire but I think there might be
01:23:49 sure the fire but I think there might be firefight Siletz and maybe because of his helmet and just inherited its and apologies I spoke over you and just looking at this helmet at your helmet rather there is a marking of a diamond
01:24:01 rather there is a marking of a diamond shared as I generate your a probationer the enemies you recruit yet now could I ask you to turn to page five your witness statement and the top
01:24:12 your witness statement and the top paragraph and you say we entered the ground-floor through the main entrance and our first thing was to check to see if anyone had taken control of the lift
01:24:24 if anyone had taken control of the lift the same lifts that members of the public would use this is one of the first actions to do to find a building with a lift the fire brigade uses a drop key or similar to take control of the lift now why this do you mean that
01:24:38 lift now why this do you mean that you're putting the lift into fire mode so that can only be used by crews and not residents correct yeah and if this is one of the first things you do on arrival does that mean that you would have been expecting someone to have
01:24:50 have been expecting someone to have taken control of the lift already as people have preceded you if the lift was working it no I think you say the crew magic Gallaher called the lift did he call it using the button or did he put a
01:25:01 call it using the button or did he put a drop key into the panel I think from my memory called it using the button mr. Betts and if I can now consider with you your progress up the tower and start off
01:25:14 your progress up the tower and start off at the beginning at the bridgehead if you keep page 5 of your witness state open and looking at the first substantive paragraph from the first sentence you said we went up to the
01:25:26 sentence you said we went up to the bridgehead but presumably you use the stairs to get there yeah and can you describe what the conditions were like in the stairs at that time visibility presence of smoke temperature it was clearly visible and it was just
01:25:39 it was clearly visible and it was just felt like a normal Bridget at the high-rise fire it was just there was a bit bit more chaotic but it was just like a normal high rise fire I still thought it was normal high-rise fire and
01:25:50 thought it was normal high-rise fire and if we can now consider the precise location of the bridgehead on page 5 of the second substantive paragraph in the third line you say that
01:26:01 paragraph in the third line you say that the bridgehead was set up on the floor that overlooked the lobby yeah to be clear do you mean the second floor yeah and it was literally the first staircase you used to go up into the tower it's just to the left of that and just to
01:26:12 just to the left of that and just to help us further can you describe exactly where the bridgehead was on the second floor was it within the lobby in the lobby literally to the left of the staircase and it may be helpful if
01:26:25 the staircase and it may be helpful if this stage of Paul you could bring up a document at the bundle tab 5
01:26:33 [Music]
01:26:50 now would help if you using the larger screen behind you mr. Benson can you just locate precisely where the bridgehead was at the time you entered the tower yes where it says steps up yes
01:27:03 the tower yes where it says steps up yes so literally to the left of that thank you not through to the communal hole just to the left of that steps up like the first steps up here and we're worth the entry control boards death Lester
01:27:16 the entry control boards death Lester yeah now turning is the next topic to the setup of the bridgehead itself who was in charge I believe it was watch
01:27:29 was in charge I believe it was watch manager chief and who was in charge of briefing the crews before they went up the tower if what's manager keepers in charge of Brigid it would have been him and I think in your statement you say there were ten of you there does that
01:27:40 there were ten of you there does that mean that ten of you were wearing BA yeah we'll lined up ready to go in yet now if looking at page five again and looking at the substantive paragraph on
01:27:52 looking at the substantive paragraph on that page the seventh line you say that you were briefed to carry out search and rescue and quotes to go up and get people out of the building from each floor and to do this for as long as we
01:28:03 floor and to do this for as long as we could now looking at that and what information were you given if any in respect of particular people in particular flats that needed rescuing none at all I was just from my from what
01:28:14 none at all I was just from my from what I remember we were just told this getting smoky up there just go and see what's happening really and if you can get someone out get someone else wasn't really much no one really knew it was
01:28:25 really much no one really knew it was happening the fire was jumping the smoke was jumping no one really had an understanding and I hope I put this fairly but in summary you were told just to get up there and bring people down
01:28:36 to get up there and bring people down it's only fair summary yeah and beyond what you saw when you first arrived at the tower were you given any further briefing as to the extent of the external fire spread at that stage no I
01:28:48 external fire spread at that stage no I just when we first turned up all I could see was maybe two or three floors of light and just full that's it were you given any briefing as to the extent of any fire within before you went up no and finally we've
01:29:01 before you went up no and finally we've given any information as to smoke conditions within the tower just it was there was getting smokier in there the the smoke was traveling there not actually where there was where it was or
01:29:13 actually where there was where it was or what was happening it was just getting smoke here in the building now the next topic I'd like to consider with you is your progress from the bridgehead up to the sixth floor now we have your be a
01:29:24 the sixth floor now we have your be a tally out timers 0 140 155 does that sound about right to you I've got no concept of time that night to say yeah can you describe what conditions were
01:29:35 can you describe what conditions were like in the stairwell as you went up between the third fourth and fifth floors somewhere I remember a bunch I think I said I think we started
01:29:46 think I said I think we started searching from the third but I can't remember where we actually start searching but I know it was about the sixth floor because you could make out the number in the lobby that's when I started getting smoky and darker and
01:29:57 started getting smoky and darker and when we got to seventh it was really smoking you could sort of make out objects and then come onto our commanders of above the sixth floor into course but actually it goes where it started getting smoky Owen harder to see
01:30:10 started getting smoky Owen harder to see and did the temperature increase by the time you've got to the sixth floor as well yeah but I'm not sure if that's obviously because we're working harder and you weren't you're working so this the temperature was getting what sir
01:30:21 the temperature was getting what sir were you walking or running up the stairwell like Dawg I'd say that is making progress and as you went up the towers you progressing through each floor were you keeping the bridgehead
01:30:33 floor were you keeping the bridgehead updated as to what you were finding I can't member how that comes I'd nod not sure if I had it who had it in our crew but I'm not sure if they were or not can't answer that now if we can just
01:30:45 can't answer that now if we can just deal now with the conditions you found on the sixth floor itself if I could ask you maybe easier to turn to page 6 and the second substantive paragraph on that age and the first sentence where you say
01:30:59 age and the first sentence where you say I think the next paragraph which starts on the sixth floor on the sixth floor the smoke was worsening what color was
01:31:13 the smoke was worsening what color was the smoke that you encountered when you first entered the sixth floor dark was it black dark gray dark it was just a dark slightly it was black but you could make our shapes and how thick was it it
01:31:28 make our shapes and how thick was it it was thick enough that you couldn't see but you could roughly see the outline of the lift and outline of the walls in the lobby itself was the smoke evenly distributed or lytic on great for
01:31:39 distributed or lytic on great for example that ceiling area you don't are you able and this may be an unfair question given the passing of time are you able to give any gauge as to any difference in temperature between the
01:31:51 difference in temperature between the fifth and sixth floors and the stairwells and laws themselves once you are at the sixth floor you heard one the other say that he had someone in the flat to the right did you go into that
01:32:03 flat to the right did you go into that flat I didn't know now looking at the bottom of page six of your statement the second line up it says we told them they
01:32:16 second line up it says we told them they needed to get out so the occupants of that flat yeah which one of you said back to the occupants of the flat I don't know if it wasn't me can you remember the words or the gist
01:32:27 can you remember the words or the gist of the words that were used to advise the occupants I don't think it I think it was more of a it wasn't a shout or tons of hours more we need to just go now I was I never started a lovely thank
01:32:38 now I was I never started a lovely thank you know some of your colleagues took the occupants of the flat down yeah and that you and mr. Tillotson continued to go up the tower is that right correct now in relation to the conditions as you
01:32:51 now in relation to the conditions as you went up to the tenth floor if we turn to page seven of your statement and the substantive paragraph on that page and line for you describe condition as thus
01:33:05 line for you describe condition as thus I was aware of it being warm and the heat increasing as we've gone up the floors but nothing too bad but the heat was definitely noticeable and uncomfortable from the ninth floor it also became smoky with each floor we
01:33:17 also became smoky with each floor we went up and you described the heat increasing on the way up and you say it was uncomfortable yeah as I quoted was this both in the stairwell and in the lobbies yeah you say the smoke was black
01:33:31 lobbies yeah you say the smoke was black can you describe for us the density of that smoke as you went up between the 7th and 10th floors third in a stairwell it wasn't as bad like you can still sort
01:33:42 it wasn't as bad like you can still sort of make it out but when you open the the ninth floor you couldn't really see anything you could probably see about maybe a foot in front of ya on each of the floors as you
01:33:53 front of ya on each of the floors as you went up starting the seventh it got progressively worse were you able to see for example on the seventh floor where the smoke was coming from now on the 8th floor now on the ninth no idea so none
01:34:04 floor now on the ninth no idea so none of the floors now see where the smoke was coming now you've got to the 10th floor yeah and if I could ask you again to look at page 7 of your statement and
01:34:17 to look at page 7 of your statement and the second substantive paragraph paragraph lines 2 & 3 you describe smoke flooding out as crew manager Tillotson opened the door to the tenth floor lobby you say it was really dark and hot are
01:34:29 you say it was really dark and hot are you describing the smoke in particular or the conditions generally the conditions in the lobby you can see in there it just when you open the door is shot out over his head and just playful it to each of them you're not going in
01:34:41 it to each of them you're not going in there at the moment we'd know nothing with us mindful of your earlier answer were you able to update the bridgehead as the condition don't know I didn't never comes
01:34:53 now seeing the conditions you that confronted you as you sought to get into the 10th floor lobby what did you sigh to do what action did you do I remember
01:35:05 to do what action did you do I remember I remembered where the die riser was on the ninth floor so we decided to go back down through the night and get some hose plug in and start firefighting on the 10th and you went down to the ninth
01:35:18 10th and you went down to the ninth floor and what did you find there I located the dry riser and also said there's a little bit of time let's lift out a statement but located erisa commander Gallagher was now back at the
01:35:30 commander Gallagher was now back at the back up and I turned to him to grab some hose he handed me some hose and then when I turned round again it was her eyes was gone had gone in a matter of seconds so it obscured by the smokers
01:35:42 seconds so it obscured by the smokers wait yeah so you could just that make it out and then within five seconds of grabbing some hose and turning back round it was gone could I ask you to turn up to the top of page 8 of your statement and just to give a little bit
01:35:54 statement and just to give a little bit of context here you say you realized that firefighter Wolfington and crew manager Galahad found a family in flat 65 a mother and daughter I realized that after taking the family from the sixth
01:36:06 after taking the family from the sixth floor down they must have returned back up following minun crew major Tillotson footsteps checking the flats on each floor after us we now had two jobs we had a family to get out and a fire to
01:36:17 had a family to get out and a fire to fight on the 10th floor now it may be useful at this stage if Paul if you wouldn't mind turning up an exhibit to mr. Benson's statement which is at met
01:36:28 mr. Benson's statement which is at met triple zero one five seven double eight [Music]
01:36:35 now hopefully this is you'll remember this as model exhibits to your statement can you show us first of all where you were is it marked by the words dry riser
01:36:46 were is it marked by the words dry riser yeah and what was the distance between the dry riser and flat sixty-five lympha the flat live the flat fool no when you
01:37:03 the flat live the flat fool no when you said you saw thick black smoke filling the lobby within about 10 to 15 seconds and it was getting hotter apologies for asking the same question again but on this occasion could you see
01:37:14 again but on this occasion could you see where the smoke was coming from that
01:37:17 could you see anything in particular that had triggered the condition to you and Counting it was just one minute it was clear and then 10 seconds later you can see Hanif on your face looking at
01:37:29 can see Hanif on your face looking at the second substantive paragraph on page 8 you say they're flat a flat 65 wasn't affected by the smoke or fire at that point by that do you mean there was no
01:37:41 point by that do you mean there was no smoke at all or nothing can that for that given the conditions you'd experienced in the stairwell and the lobbies were you able to we trying to account for the disparity in conditions
01:37:53 account for the disparity in conditions that you encountered not really we were just more right about what we're gonna do the family now we're gonna get him out and one point it was decided that Tillotson Gjallarhorn been I think was from the Brixton station I would go down
01:38:05 from the Brixton station I would go down to get spare ba sets were they doing that in order to bring those sets up so they could bring the mother and child down that's correct yeah is it usual practice when confronted with situations
01:38:17 practice when confronted with situations like this analogous to this to use ba kits bring people down it's an unusual fire so if I could ask you to turn to page 9 of your statement and the second
01:38:30 page 9 of your statement and the second paragraph and the last four lines of that parrot that you say this we knew we were running out of time the smoke was getting worse every second I went out
01:38:42 getting worse every second I went out into the corridor a couple of times to monitor the situation and see if the others were coming yet the whole of the corridor was compromised totally full of thick black hot smoke and I looked
01:38:53 thick black hot smoke and I looked through the letterbox of the next door flat and sort of the whole thing looked to be on fire first of all the first
01:39:04 to be on fire first of all the first element of that quotation we knew we were running out of time the smoke was getting worse every second just be clear are you describing the smoke conditions within flat 64 hours in the lobby yep
01:39:15 within flat 64 hours in the lobby yep what were the smoke conditions like in the flat itself still all right when we gonna shuttled windows and I heard even funded at all I think you later described or states
01:39:28 I think you later described or states that you were with in flat 65 or something for at least 15 to 20 minutes did the conditions within the flat deteriorate whilst you're in there not while stir it in then did heat increase
01:39:41 while stir it in then did heat increase net looking at the third paragraph on page nine you say that you made contact with watch magic Collins by radio to
01:39:52 with watch magic Collins by radio to request a ladder that the watch manager said they couldn't get it anywhere near to you due to the size of the debris coming down now with the use of the aerial ladder be a standard response to
01:40:04 aerial ladder be a standard response to the circumstances in which you found yourself in flat 65 I mean we're waiting for from all I still four when I went in it was a fire over about three floors and I just I mean it's my first ever second ever high-rise fire so I thought
01:40:17 second ever high-rise fire so I thought that it was just a bit of smoke that traveling out so I presume the tale can probably make a rich gutter push at 10 floors to be on the 9th or full and Wolfie he was moving meanies eto operator but then we didn't realize what
01:40:29 operator but then we didn't realize what the conditions were outside and was it his idea that you should call Collins for thee I just thought come up and did you experience any difficulties getting in touch with the
01:40:41 in touch with the manager it was quite heavy radio traffic but I can't doubt from what I remember he just there was someone coming back on the radio don't if it was watch manager Collins but it's a bit like you haven't got a chance to get it till nearly can
01:40:53 got a chance to get it till nearly can you remember and again it's not fair question given the matter time that's passed can remember the distance in time between you making the call and the request and the response coming back there thank you now the next issue I'd
01:41:08 there thank you now the next issue I'd like to discuss with you is leaving flat 65 and going down to the bridgehead now if I could ask you to turn to page 10 and the second paragraph on that page and the first two sentences in
01:41:22 and the first two sentences in particular and restate as soon as you left the flat you couldn't see a thing as firefighters we were a torch on our chest in the stairwell the smoke was so thick and dense that this torch was only
01:41:33 thick and dense that this torch was only giving me maybe six inches of visibility as a maximum there was no other lighting it was pure black and we knew we had nine floors to get down so had to go fast now rising out of that were those
01:41:48 fast now rising out of that were those the conditions you encountered on the stairwell on each of the floors as you descended down that's yeah so you never recovered by it was black black thick smoke until about maybe the full foot further full floor oh yeah apologies
01:42:02 further full floor oh yeah apologies that was that was what it was he had gone the whole thing had gone it was thick black smoke are you able to describe the temperature as you descended from the ninth floor down to the bridge head it's just hot and it was
01:42:13 the bridge head it's just hot and it was felt like it was getting hotter she went down do you think that was due to the heat of the surrounding circumstances or just because you were expending energy trying to get a very vital thing yeah do
01:42:24 trying to get a very vital thing yeah do you think at that stage you were experiencing the symptoms of metabolic heat stress or that thing sir do you remember what if any firefighting equipment was in the stairwell as he
01:42:36 equipment was in the stairwell as he went down a lot of house a lot of hose on the way up there wasn't as much but when we were coming out it was a lot of hose can you remember meeting any residents as you went down no residents
01:42:48 residents as you went down no residents that then
01:42:49 that then burners going down it was hold on to the little girl and we get out of it there wasn't really much thinking going on could I ask you to turn over the page of your statement to page 11 and the first substantive
01:43:00 page 11 and the first substantive paragraph on off on that page and lines one and two and you say one more floor down and we reach the bridge head which had moved close to the first staircase in the lobby area but Paula if you would
01:43:12 in the lobby area but Paula if you would mind showing document from the bundle documents tab 5 again mr. Benson if that's expanded are you able to show us
01:43:24 that's expanded are you able to show us on the drawing where the bridge head was when you came down the bridge and into control boards are now in the communal Hall and the communal just moved to left
01:43:35 we have the end of your BA where time as 0 to 1542 does that sound about right to you yeah must be
01:43:48 you yeah must be now the penultimate topic I'd like to discuss with you is assisting casualties on the evening on page 11 the paragraph
01:43:59 on the evening on page 11 the paragraph at the bottom of the page that you said that you then assisted with running casualties being carried out on trolleys you say the casualties were being taken over to the ledger Center was the ledger Center the central place at which the LA
01:44:11 Center the central place at which the LA s was no not casualties when off when we first come out a tower there was a there was a deceased casualty on a trolley and then that's during whoever was taken away they were struggling to bump out of things to help them up with that that
01:44:23 things to help them up with that that was when we first came out the tower and after that when I went back into the tower is the open casualties to the lift so it would be the west side of the building out towards the be a holding
01:44:34 building out towards the be a holding area
01:44:36 do you recall whether the bridge had moved to the third floor not turning back to casualties could I ask you to
01:44:47 back to casualties could I ask you to turn to page 13 and the two sentences after a short while of being in the be a holding area I don't
01:44:58 being in the be a holding area I don't know where everyone went but I was still with the chromatic Gallaher and we went together back to the tower entrance to help with casualty handling where did you take the casualties to on that
01:45:10 you take the casualties to on that occasion at that time so there is sort of like a chain so when the casualties came down from the inside the lobby a.cian bit there's that the glass floor underneath that out to the west side
01:45:21 underneath that out to the west side there's some side doors and now it's where the be a holding area was and there's a chain of getting casualties it from there the final topic I'd like to discuss with
01:45:33 the final topic I'd like to discuss with you today is your triage role at the pub on Bromley Road and if I could ask you to turn to page 15 and the second sentence from the top of that page you
01:45:45 sentence from the top of that page you say I was helping firefighter Kean when someone from command came over and stated they needed someone to go to the triage center that been set up on Bradley Road in the pub he wanted
01:45:56 Bradley Road in the pub he wanted details of the people coming into the triage center collected and radioed over to the command unit who are working on the fire at fire safety guidance phone calls so these details can be cross-checked to know he was after the
01:46:08 cross-checked to know he was after the tower and he was still missing I went along with a firefighter woman from Willesden now in relation to the role that you performed that night at the triage center do you remember who it was from command who asked you to do this
01:46:20 from command who asked you to do this function now they literally walked around the fire Grandon so I was recruit so they grabbed me and they took me over there and see if people were coming in to triage it was just no and their name
01:46:32 to triage it was just no and their name down and then just what flak they came from so as far as you're aware the senior officer more senior officer who directed you to carry out this task wasn't from the command you I probably would from the command unit yeah
01:46:46 would from the command unit yeah would it have been a gentleman called cook I don't know but do you remember what time in the evening you were asked to carry out this function in the morning it would have
01:46:57 function in the morning it would have been he was getting light I think if I asked you to turn over back to page to page 14 I think we said it started at the very last line at the bottom of page I was aware that started getting light
01:47:10 I was aware that started getting light and that your alarm had gone off at 7:00 a.m. yeah and was this before or after you you were asked to assist with the triage function think that was before if
01:47:24 triage function think that was before if we could just step back sorry before I go into an additional topic you say you had to get the details of people coming
01:47:35 had to get the details of people coming into the triage center and radio these over to the command unit so they'd be cross-checked against FSG phone calls do you know who you were communicating with at the command unit and that hat do you
01:47:47 at the command unit and that hat do you know which peep there was a composer sir as a watch manager also moved me at that at Bromley Road and we weren't they going over and making the communication it's just if someone came in you took
01:47:58 it's just if someone came in you took their details and passed him on to him we did you have any calls to communicate directly with the command unit itself no did you make any record of the
01:48:10 did you make any record of the information that you were collecting and then passing on I don't I don't think anyone came through when I was dead to me personally there's a couple of us there going back to the rescue for flat
01:48:21 there going back to the rescue for flat 65 how did you use the BA sets on the mother and little girl how did you fit them so we mounted citizen was low on
01:48:32 them so we mounted citizen was low on air so we unplugged the facemask from one set and crew manager Tillotson plugged into that set so he had extra I had plenty of air so the little girl was masking in my set and and I carried her
01:48:44 masking in my set and and I carried her and the other set was put on the mother and she was she was taken down in BA and how complicated was it to fit the BA apparatus to the little girl very complicated because somebody's face must
01:48:55 complicated because somebody's face must some people in 5a gave me personal issue face masks because of the size and shape of the face safer a child - we're adults masks difficult so we just put it on - this Title II couldn't hold it to her
01:49:06 - this Title II couldn't hold it to her face again I should ask this but are you able to gauge how long it took you to fit the little girl's chain for this stuff we're trying to do set and set
01:49:17 stuff we're trying to do set and set procedure now you entered the Tarot sir 130 roundabouts and reported the bridge head at 142 now between the entrance and
01:49:30 head at 142 now between the entrance and the bridge head did you see a resident on crutches at all no mr. Patterson I have no further questions for you
01:49:42 questions for you [Applause]
01:49:48 [Music] I'm asked to ask you come by mr. millet did you see anyone writing FSG messages sit up anywhere no in those
01:50:00 sit up anywhere no in those circumstances mr. person thank you very much Nikki coming to require to give evidence today
01:50:09 sir with your permission my semaphore in going when it maybe there are some more questions now or at least one or two or there maybe or maybe not but it might ask you to rise for say five minutes yes I think what we'll do mr. Pettis and
01:50:21 I think what we'll do mr. Pettis and we'll have a five-minute break while they sort out the question further questions and then we'll three four o'clock be back here and please didn't
01:50:32 o'clock be back here and please didn't talk to anyone else about their evidence was all right yeah thank you good thank you very much you gave the usher their right we resumed at four o
01:50:45 usher their right we resumed at four o clock
01:50:54 you
01:55:54 [Music]
01:56:03 thank you
01:56:07 no mr. ko do you have some more questions two very brief questions sir right miss Besson thank you very much for your patience just two questions for you
01:56:15 you in relation to familiarize ation visits did you ever pay a familiarization visit to Granville tower before the fire nice no our ground so it wouldn't be a la francaise station like you wouldn't have expected to have made such a visitor
01:56:27 expected to have made such a visitor miss Besson those are all the questions we have for each day and thank you very much for coming on thank you very much today mr. Beslan did you tell me that there's only your second high-rise fire that was at a
01:56:38 your second high-rise fire that was at a time yeah well if I may say so I think you played a very important part in the Fire Brigades response and did extraordinarily well if I may say so thank you and I have to thank you very
01:56:49 thank you and I have to thank you very much for coming to give your evidence now if it hasn't been too daunting that experience but it certainly helped us a lot
01:56:55 lot thank you very much thank you very much this is right you like to go to the options new word good so thank you that
01:57:07 options new word good so thank you that concludes the business for today there will be three witnesses on Monday at 10:00 a.m. start yes and so that concludes our business with Jason good
01:57:19 concludes our business with Jason good thank you very much well that's it for today we'll break now resume ten o'clock on Monday next week when we shall hear from some more firefighters I think anyway good thank you all very much ten
01:57:33 anyway good thank you all very much ten o'clock on Monday thank you
01:57:44 you