Firefighter Richard Hipple gives evidence about his deployment to Grenfell Tower on the night of the fire. His testimony reveals lack of awareness of stay-put policy, communication failures, and the moment he realized the incident was 'something unusual' upon encountering thick black smoke on the sixth floor.
00:00:11 [Music]
00:00:18 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing I think we're going to hear from some more firefighter witnesses during the course of today good morning mr. Miller good morning mr.
00:00:29 good morning mr. Miller good morning mr. chairman we are yes we're going to start with firefighter Richard Hippel from Kensington if you could please be called
00:00:58 [Music] like facility Sicilian Chile became
00:01:05 and from the evidence I shall give shall be the truth
00:01:14 good morning of temple make yourself comfortable mr. millet will ask you some questions we'll explain the material before you
00:01:25 we'll explain the material before you yes return it good morning mr. hippo whatever can I say first of all thank you very much for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we very much appreciate it okay I also
00:01:36 we very much appreciate it okay I also say as I do to all witnesses that my questions are intended to be short and simple they sometimes don't turn out that way if if you don't understand a question or you want me to repeat it in the same way or differently please just
00:01:47 the same way or differently please just ask me I will and if you want to break at any stage please just indicate and we can take a break we will be aiming for a break in any case halfway through the morning and subject to the chairman
00:01:59 morning and subject to the chairman can I start by asking you to take your statements which should be in the little blue bundle in front of you and it is M et met quadruple zero eight three zero
00:02:12 et met quadruple zero eight three zero zero and it's your statement dated the fifth of January 2018 that you gave to the police have you read it recently I have this and can you confirm that his contents are true and accurate yes and
00:02:25 contents are true and accurate yes and there is also a set of contemporaneous notes that you made at the time of the fire and those are Emmy T triple zero one three zero five seven which you should also have in the next tab of your
00:02:37 should also have in the next tab of your little file yeah and have you read those recently I have yes okay now you can use the pieces of paper in front of you but we tend to work from the screens which are at the back of the room or on the
00:02:48 are at the back of the room or on the screen monitor on the desk in front of you so that's what we tend to do and when I and when I take you to a part of your statement it gets highlighted in yellow so you can see it and we can look
00:03:00 yellow so you can see it and we can look at it together have you discussed your statement or your evidence with anybody before coming here today no okay now in terms of your position you have served I think in the be for some 30 years yes and he'd been
00:03:14 be for some 30 years yes and he'd been an active firefighter for all that time is that right and you're currently a firefighter at Kensington fire station I am and you've been there for I think is that like 25 years yes and firefighter
00:03:26 that like 25 years yes and firefighter was your rank as at the night of the 14th of June yes it was 2017 yeah and you were at Kensington at that time yes yeah just a short question about
00:03:38 yeah just a short question about Shepherd's court on page 12 of your statement have you just go to it you say
00:03:52 you worked on a high-rise fire its Shepherd's court just last year and you say we're similarly the fire breached containment and jumped two flats up was
00:04:09 containment and jumped two flats up was that a case where compartment ation in a high-rise failed it didn't that far yes yes
00:04:15 yes within Yorick's long experience as a frontline firefighter was that a common event where the complementation say it was not uncommon that right and what was the mechanism for fire spread up the
00:04:27 the mechanism for fire spread up the building our Shepherd school do you remember Shepherd's caught personally from my own personal opinion is quite different from Grenville we've were
00:04:39 different from Grenville we've were faced with a flat that was fully on fire everything in that fat was in fire and from what perspective the heat and the
00:04:50 from what perspective the heat and the energy that was creating there breached the windows the fire then came out of those windows reach the windows at the fire of the flat above caught that fire
00:05:01 fire of the flat above caught that fire alight and then the same mechanism worked up to the next flat and that worked quite slow speed maybe 20 minutes 25 minutes
00:05:12 25 minutes that allowed us enough time to get ourselves our Quitman up to the floors get ourselves ready make entry to the flat and put the fire out before it spread further
00:05:23 spread further do you remember whether the fire was spread by means of the exterior itself being a light at Shepherds cold not for my so I just looking at pictures it
00:05:36 my so I just looking at pictures it since the makeup is is rather different they underneath each window you had two small panels that were attached to it
00:05:48 small panels that were attached to it whereas Grenfell was completely covered in in cladding right you say looking at pictures since the makeup is rather different
00:05:57 different have you had calls after Shepherd the Shepherds caught fire to look at pictures of the Shepherd's caught fire I have looked at pictures of Stephan in what circumstances did you come to look
00:06:08 what circumstances did you come to look at pictures of the Shepherd's I looked at the doctrine that was introduced in Mike Gardens testimony Oh bonus inquiry okay that's before that no I see you're talking about the tall the the facades
00:06:21 talking about the tall the the facades but the slideshow produced by the LF PS okay anything else no right
00:06:33 going straight to your attendance at Grenfell tower on the night of the fire were you aware from your prior knowledge of Grenfell tower such as you described but this was a building with a stay put
00:06:45 but this was a building with a stay put policy in place not you or not did you have any thoughts our honor on arrival on on the night of the fire as to what the standing instruction to a
00:06:57 as to what the standing instruction to a residence was in the event of a fire no right one way or the other no right now
00:07:08 right one way or the other no right now the call-out to Grenfell tower on the light of the fire came for you at about fit burn 55 minutes past midnight yes
00:07:19 fit burn 55 minutes past midnight yes and we can cut straight to your arrival and you say in your statement that you arrived at that of about Oh 105 that's
00:07:30 arrived at that of about Oh 105 that's page two second paragraph first sentence
00:07:37 you see that yeah now we've checked the short incident log and it has you a confirming arrival in other words status 3 @ o 108 33 would that be about right
00:07:49 3 @ o 108 33 would that be about right if that's what the love says then there'd be the correct okay and you say you part 200 meters sorry yard don't meters decimal away from the Dan grenfell row that's the third line
00:08:00 Dan grenfell row that's the third line yep
00:08:04 from Grandville tower why so far I seem to remember on the night that we knew that access to the tower was quite difficult with parked cars so we did try
00:08:15 difficult with parked cars so we did try to move further down the road to allow our machines and other emergency vehicles an immediate to get access right okay was it near a hydrant did you park near a hydrant down luck did you
00:08:27 park near a hydrant down luck did you look for a hydrant ah not myself now did anyone in your cab look for I don't know we were up and out okay now you I think were the only we're only
00:08:38 now you I think were the only we're only the third fire appliance on the scene after the two initial attendances from North Kensington G 272 and G 2 7 1 possibly is that right possibly I dunno
00:08:51 possibly is that right possibly I dunno right can you can you recall how easy it was to access the tower in terms of congestion of park traffic it was the
00:09:03 congestion of park traffic it was the road was a width of park cosmos of foreign genes width so it's quite tight getting down there thank you did that slow you down do you think I'm not necessarily right could you not get any
00:09:15 necessarily right could you not get any closer to the tower than 200 meters I think he was it was a choice of parking further down so that we could leave space then to allow other machines if we
00:09:27 space then to allow other machines if we all pop behind each other and then we want to get an aerial in or you need to get an ambulance in we're blocking further machines and people coming down I see ok
00:09:37 I see ok now further down the second paragraph on page 2 of your statement you say I could see the tower as we approach the entrance on the south side and there I
00:09:50 entrance on the south side and there I saw no outward indication of fire except for wisps of gray smoke coming out of silver slatted fence I could see above the main entrance doors first of all when you say I could
00:10:04 doors first of all when you say I could see the tower as we approach the entrance do you mean on foot or while you were still a writer right in your appliance on foot on foot and when you say as we approach the entrance
00:10:16 when you say as we approach the entrance on the south side how far from the tower were you at that stage do you think when you first saw the wisps of gray smoke literally within 10 minutes of the
00:10:29 literally within 10 minutes of the building right and did you did you see any fire at all on the east side tonight I looked up I didn't see anything okay
00:10:41 who were you with when you were approaching the tower as you described in that sentence crew manager stone anybody else not to my knowledge am i right
00:10:52 right where was the rest of your crew they I don't know they were probably getting themselves ready helping out outside I would have thought okay and you were
00:11:05 would have thought okay and you were already rigged in your PPE and your BA on arrival at the scene hours and what about Jamal Stern who manages sir he wasn't waiting now I just want to ask
00:11:17 wasn't waiting now I just want to ask you some questions about these wisps of grey smoke coming out of silver slatted fence you said you see above the main entrance door and and one of you could help us by looking at a photograph yeah
00:11:29 help us by looking at a photograph yeah can I ask for BL a quadruple zero for 531 to be shown
00:11:39 this is a photograph of the southside of Gretna felt our just above the entrance which the inquiries expert one of the
00:11:51 which the inquiries expert one of the inquiries experts dr. Barbara Lane took in her visit to the building November last year so this is after the fire November last year 2017 and it's a
00:12:04 November last year 2017 and it's a photograph of the south side as I say and the green portico is the entrance to the building and I just wonder Naurang the scaffolding so far as you can
00:12:15 the scaffolding so far as you can whether you can identify where on that photograph do you think you saw the smoke coming out from the fence that you can see just above the windows right
00:12:26 can see just above the windows right those slatted yeah vents how sure are you about that oh sure yeah right and then let me just show two or
00:12:37 right and then let me just show two or three more pictures to you just to make sure that you see this at a greater distance can I just ask for Essie a quadruple zero sorry quintuple zero three five six we just
00:12:48 quintuple zero three five six we just have 74 of the master dogs bundle now that that is a photograph taken by Studio II the architects during the
00:13:01 Studio II the architects during the refurbishment and this is again the South Face over the entrance and again you don't have you don't have a slash but you can see just towards the top of
00:13:12 but you can see just towards the top of the picture above the window is a gap with what looks like an extractor vent again is that the same location that
00:13:26 again is that the same location that would have ended here pretty much location and just one more picture to make this absolutely sure s look at the last one it's tab 77 of the master documents bundle se a quadruple zero
00:13:38 documents bundle se a quadruple zero three six three
00:13:43 that is not such a good photograph but but again as that I may not be a little bit as effective let's try a different
00:13:54 bit as effective let's try a different photograph three five three
00:14:11 and very again we have a closer picture of the extractor unit I suppose it is
00:14:23 of the extractor unit I suppose it is above the main entrance again it's at the same location do you finish yeah it is okay now can you tell us what the color of the smoke you saw was do you
00:14:36 color of the smoke you saw was do you remember it was pretty much white well how it's like steam like so yeah it was a very white color was it how dense was
00:14:48 a very white color was it how dense was it you remember it was quite wispy yeah it wasn't it was like something was bending out of there a light smoke okay was it being propelled out with some
00:15:01 was it being propelled out with some false or was it just drifting over it wasn't coming out with force but it was enough that it I noticed it as I was walking up like it caught my attention and was it moving in any direction it
00:15:13 and was it moving in any direction it was just dissipating into the air right did it look like it was being vented by a mechanical force of some kind not necessarily no didn't look like it was coming out our force okay [Music]
00:15:27 did you hear any sounds of ventilation or fans
00:15:39 when you got into the lobby did you see any smoke in the lobby no could you hear any sounds of ventilation or fans in the lobby enough
00:16:08 how high up do you think the smoke went after dissipation a coupla meters okay oh no it was dark so it was hard so he's
00:16:20 oh no it was dark so it was hard so he's probably being lit by the light from the atrium and then once he left the light of the atrium it was hard to see so whether it's dissipating where I just couldn't see it because it's going into the night sky and having arrived but at
00:16:35 the night sky and having arrived but at least providing status 3 @o 108 33 how how many minutes after arrival do you think you saw the smoke a minute yeah no
00:16:47 think you saw the smoke a minute yeah no more than say thank you and you then went with crew managers Stern to the entrance of the tower yeah do you know
00:16:59 entrance of the tower yeah do you know where the rest of your crew went nuts okay and in the lobby you say there was no smoke what were the other conditions like can you tell ah normal clear clear
00:17:12 like can you tell ah normal clear clear right and you
00:17:18 you were with crew manager Stern were you with anybody else when you came into the lobby
00:17:23 the lobby not to my knowledge right and you say that you this is the third paragraph on
00:17:35 that you this is the third paragraph on page two in the second line there is a set of steps on the right which took us up to a metonym balcony floor and then we turn right into a little Bobby there and that's where the bridge head was at
00:17:47 and that's where the bridge head was at that point did anybody tell you to go to the bridge head yeah when we got off the fire engine we've been told to report
00:17:58 fire engine we've been told to report sir Bridget who told you that watch man junky O'Keeffe yes Riley O'Keefe yes right
00:18:06 did you know by that stage which floor the father was on I don't think I did not right did you know as it were
00:18:17 not right did you know as it were officially which floor the bridge head was on or supposed to be on that's it I do remember we were told it's far on the fourth right so I would Dennis soon that Richard would be on the second okay and
00:18:29 Richard would be on the second okay and the bridge head when you've got to it you say was being run by crew manager secret this is the top of page three of your statement and firefighter decent all Ben is in charge of the be a board
00:18:42 all Ben is in charge of the be a board was anybody else there at that point not do you remember whether firefighters O'Hanlon and Barton were present when you arrived at the bridgehead you know where we got to the bridge if we were
00:18:53 where we got to the bridge if we were told that the two crews have been committed to the fight right out flap they've been to commit to crews had already been four committees and they've already gone up yes so were you alone we've promoted secret
00:19:05 so were you alone we've promoted secret and it's that sorry smoke on yes quite a quite it was the for us through the four of you okay so you criminals a secret crew manager Stern wearing ba and firefighter dicen
00:19:17 Stern wearing ba and firefighter dicen delivery yet now and cream and a secret in his witness statements describes you and crew manager Stern as looking spooked and concerned of you can you help us with that is that your
00:19:28 help us with that is that your recollection how were you feeling I was okay at that point right I've been self since I firmly look spooked thank you now the telemetry data we have show
00:19:44 now the telemetry data we have show Barton and O'Hanlon tallying out at 111 and 112 so would it follow from the fact that you who didn't see them that you just getting a time slot on this you had
00:19:56 just getting a time slot on this you had arrived at the bridge had a little bit after they tallied out yeah they could I definitely been committed right before we arrived at Richmond okay you then say
00:20:07 we arrived at Richmond okay you then say it on the third page of your witness statement at the top in the third line I asked Kree manager secrets to commit us to back up those crews and he replied he
00:20:18 to back up those crews and he replied he wanted to keep us in reserve at that time why did did he say why he wants to keep you in reserve he wanted to keep us as an emergency team which is normal
00:20:32 as an emergency team which is normal practice right normal practice you say if that's what he felt what is normal practice in your experience at a high-rise fire you're in any fire if
00:20:44 high-rise fire you're in any fire if you've got the resources you keep a mergency crew at ba control if they're needed right why did you think it was necessary to be committed to back up
00:20:55 necessary to be committed to back up those crews why did I forget purely because I wanted to get involved I see okay now you then say that in the second
00:21:07 okay now you then say that in the second paragraph on page 3 I then heard a message over the handheld radio from firefighters outside the building stating that they had a covering jet and were asking to whom the permission to aim the jet into the window of a fire flat
00:21:22 and you then go on to say secret attempted to contact the be a cruise asking that to ask them whether they made entry to the fire flat and whether they were already inside or not he was
00:21:34 they were already inside or not he was unable to contact either crew to verify the location so denied permission but did you see him trying to contact the
00:21:45 did you see him trying to contact the cruise to verify the locations I didn't see him can't I heard the I heard him get the message from outside how did you hear that it would have been on someone
00:21:56 hear that it would have been on someone else's radio a handheld radio I didn't have my own switch done so it's probably from here he was standing next to me then I remembered trying to contact the
00:22:07 then I remembered trying to contact the cruising couldn't get hold on I done have powered contact whether it was through his own radio more likely for dissing or burn what radio comms equipment did you have on you I had a
00:22:18 equipment did you have on you I had a handheld radio made waves switched off they were switched off ones are switched off because they're not intrinsically safe and we were thinking about going into a fire not intrinsically safe was
00:22:30 into a fire not intrinsically safe was so they can create sparks in an explosive atmosphere and free exposure so you Tone Loc is that practice you took firefighter going up to commit before their hand helps for hand holds
00:22:43 before their hand helps for hand holds yes did you have a Barry radio with you crew mentor Stern was wearing a bear around here right but would that mean then ordinarily if you were being committed to a fire as part of a be a
00:22:54 committed to a fire as part of a be a pair one of you would have a barrier radio and one of you would have no comms at all it can be this can be that way if you say it can be that way is that normal it's not it's as it's written down in the rule book some people will
00:23:07 down in the rule book some people will put their radios on I put my radio on later on the job but at that point everyone around you has got radios on you can hear was the tax yes I'm just trying to get a feel for what normal practice is and it
00:23:19 feel for what normal practice is and it sounds as if you're saying that some firefighters who haven't got the very same but R where R b/a where is as part of a pair choose not to put their radio radio there how their handhelds on the song someday policy is to don't be
00:23:31 song someday policy is to don't be Reggie on some people do sometimes I've had it on so the policies you don't but some people do policy if you want to try and find out what's going on writer working I see okay
00:23:43 writer working I see okay that did crew manager secret discuss the fact that he couldn't contact the be a cruise with anybody did you hear after he couldn't contact the PA crews he related a message back outside denying
00:23:56 related a message back outside denying them permission to put the cover in jet that was already working into the window because it couldn't get hold him close do you know why crew manager secret couldn't contact either be a crew are
00:24:08 couldn't contact either be a crew are down okay do you say he then denied message could he make radio contact to you did you see him make radio contact with the outside of the tower
00:24:21 with the outside of the tower I heard him mic at that yes you heard him yeah did you hear him get any confirmation back I can't remember but I would assume he would have done yes did it surprise you that he couldn't make contact with the BA wearers who have
00:24:33 contact with the BA wearers who have been committed and that right
00:24:39 that did you hear anything else over the Massiah should ask you whose radio was it that you heard the confirmation come
00:24:52 it that you heard the confirmation come back over what confirmation from outsiders
00:24:57 outsiders I don't remember confirming outside that they weren't going to put in right okay
00:25:05 now you then say in your statement there in the third paragraph on page three a few seconds later Kensington's officer
00:25:16 few seconds later Kensington's officer in charge
00:25:17 in charge watch manager O'Keefe arrived at the bridgehead and took charge and you then say I asked him to commit myself and crew managers stern to backup the other crews and he agreed so we readied
00:25:28 crews and he agreed so we readied ourselves and started our BA do you know what had changed if anything between crew manager secret saying you needed to keep you in reserve and watch manager
00:25:41 keep you in reserve and watch manager O'Keefe deciding to agree to send you into the tower I don't think anything had changed it's always just a different perspective he had crewman's a secret
00:25:52 had other crews arrived by that night
00:25:58 now watch manager O'Keefe who came some days ago to the enquiring him gave some evidence about your deployment and in
00:26:09 evidence about your deployment and in summary he says that he committed you and crew managers Stern initially as hose management do you remember that I don't specifically remember insane hose
00:26:20 don't specifically remember insane hose man she may have detailed that to come out crew man to stern my general brief was to go and back the crews up there up there and within that that would be how much management it would be encompassed
00:26:32 much management it would be encompassed if you know right do you remember whether you got any kind of deployment briefing from watch manager O'Keefe just to going back the
00:26:43 manager O'Keefe just to going back the crews up right which floors did that require you to go to to back them up or initially the full floor yes both floor yeah and what would that what would that
00:26:54 yeah and what would that what would that involve well what did you understand at that time it would involve for me personally just to go up there and see what whether they needed helping out i managing the hose because it's hard to
00:27:06 managing the hose because it's hard to work hose from frats and he build in see if they were getting tired and needed to be replaced at the branch and generally
00:27:17 be replaced at the branch and generally sometimes knocking up doors to save people were next door okay right sometimes checking upstairs and below the flat lower floors to see if there's been any fire spread right now we have
00:27:31 been any fire spread right now we have the be a telemetry data don't need to take you to it unless you want to see it but we have the data showing you and crew managers stern tallying out at 117 or so you know that the seconds are
00:27:43 or so you know that the seconds are different that it's about 117 does that sound about right - yes ask why right okay and you went underrated you as soon as you left the bridgehead oh yes yeah
00:27:54 as you left the bridgehead oh yes yeah we'd be under air before we tell you what equipment did you take with you when going up to actors I don't fit which I can't even comment that was we had a Superman energy camera
00:28:06 that was we had a Superman energy camera with us
00:28:08 with us why no hose I don't remember there were I can't remember they're actually been any hose at the bridgehead at that point right what about a branch and no branding the same thing would that be
00:28:20 branding the same thing would that be normal to go up as a backup crew two to two sets of to be a wearers without a hose or a brunch yeah well I mean you
00:28:32 hose or a brunch yeah well I mean you just see me if there's two crews up there they'd be running to lens like ten minutes of hose out by then so at that point we will be purely to back them up I say with the handling of the hose
00:28:43 I say with the handling of the hose behind them right now you um you say at the end of the third paragraph on page three the stairwell was clear and the
00:28:54 three the stairwell was clear and the visibility was good the lights were on and there were no issues as we made our way up just pausing there when you made your way up did you count the floors by reference to anything perhaps two floors
00:29:05 reference to anything perhaps two floors yeah yes did you notice whether the floors were numbered I did notice because it was just a floor Cyrus KC going up to fly us to his right
00:29:16 Cyrus KC going up to fly us to his right now you then say in the last paragraph on page three
00:29:26 that you got to the fourth floor and entered the lobby from the stairwell there was some smoke in the lobby and the crews had made entry to the fire
00:29:37 the crews had made entry to the fire flat do you know where the smoke in the lobby that come from do you think I'm assuming from the fire flatness did you notice any smoke coming from anywhere else
00:29:47 else no did you notice whether there were smoke vents on in the lobby on the fourth floor I didn't see any no who don't okay did you know that there was a
00:30:02 don't okay did you know that there was a an AO v system in place at Granville Tower I didn't know and you go on to say
00:30:13 Tower I didn't know and you go on to say that you saw firefighters video and they burn in the lobby but not wearing PA did
00:30:24 burn in the lobby but not wearing PA did you know that firefighters Padilla and O'Byrne were up on the fourth floor I didn't know that I gotta do that's a nobody told you it's alright no okay did
00:30:35 nobody told you it's alright no okay did it surprise you no not always quite common practice for firefighters without PA to be facilitating hose and setting gear up and right now you say that one
00:30:52 gear up and right now you say that one of the are skewed rather than putting words in your mouth and where were firefighters batter B and brown at this state of first be a crew
00:31:03 state of first be a crew do you remember they would have been in the fire flap in the flat and what about firefighters their handler than Barton are they in the flat as well I say all four of them are in the flash ice okay so we can put all four of them in the
00:31:14 so we can put all four of them in the flat at some point after Oh 117 Yeah right you I think recall some smoke coming from the door to flat 16 into the
00:31:25 coming from the door to flat 16 into the lobby can you describe the smoke for us it wasn't a lot just know a bit of black smoke nothing to concern us it to be in the lobby okay was it
00:31:41 us it to be in the lobby okay was it do you remember whether it was logging or whether it was dispersing it was dispersing really I say that the lobby was pretty clear of smoke so there was
00:31:52 was pretty clear of smoke so there was minimal smoke coming out of the door the flap right so the next question maybe it's obvious but you say it was dispersing how and where was it dispersing to will it be dispersing
00:32:04 dispersing to will it be dispersing within the lobby area and uh possibly the the lobby door was propped open with a house right but there was there was little smoke coming out right
00:32:15 little smoke coming out right and given that firefighters Badillo and air burn were not wearing ba do you remember how respirable the air was in the lobby at that point for them they were having no problems at all this
00:32:29 now you then say at the bottom of page three of your statement we were informed that there was smoke on the fifth and
00:32:40 that there was smoke on the fifth and sixth floor and just to be clear is this worthy we're all standing in the fourth floor lobby but you've got this information almost immediately that I
00:32:51 information almost immediately that I got to fall for love it pretty much walked into the full four lobby had a quick look around and then I had the information that there was smoke on the fifth or the sixth where did that information sorry who told you that
00:33:03 information sorry who told you that information I'm not hundred percent sure do you know whether that information came from it would have been from fire fire a firefighter who was with you at the time again when you're in ERV be a
00:33:15 the time again when you're in ERV be a set you become very insolent you lose your peripheral vision you lose a lot your hearing so you get information when you're looking at something and you get
00:33:26 you're looking at something and you get it's sometimes hard to tell who's giving you them
00:33:28 you them it could have been shouted down the stairs so it's hard to tell I just remember having that information right and given that you had no operating handheld radio and there Barry said
00:33:39 handheld radio and there Barry said would it be right that you must have heard it in force it would have been someone shot and then it would have been a firefighter talking right you say it
00:33:52 a firefighter talking right you say it would have been a firefighter what about the possibility of it being a occupant of the building I wouldn't that at that point I hadn't seen any occupants okay now you then say at the top of page
00:34:10 okay now you then say at the top of page four the crew manager Stern and I decided to go up and have a look at that stage do you know whether any of the
00:34:22 stage do you know whether any of the other firefighters that had actually been further up in the tower to see what was going on I didn't know and just to be clear you say in your statement that
00:34:33 be clear you say in your statement that you were told that there was smoke on the fifth and sixth floor it was it restricted to smoke or do you remember whether there was anything more reported
00:34:44 whether there was anything more reported he was just like you're clear about that yes right
00:34:47 yes right [Music]
00:34:51 and then you then say crew manager Stern and I decided to go up and have a look was there a discussion between you and crew managers Stern all of that decisions at night were made together but it was usually one one would suggest
00:35:04 but it was usually one one would suggest it in the other one agree I can't remember who made those decisions who first initiated it they were all done together right when you made that decision you didn't have radio because he told us but did crew manager Stern
00:35:17 he told us but did crew manager Stern communicate your decision with him to go up and have a look to anybody else I couldn't tell you that you don't remember him radioing all I remember it
00:35:28 remember him radioing all I remember it was literally because it was five seconds from that floor to the next floor all I remember is hearing the call that a smoke on there and then five seconds later over here upstairs on the floor when you made your decision do you
00:35:39 floor when you made your decision do you remember we're just in Oh burn firefighter Oh burn was not at that point everyone was running around and again as I said we're back being in a bi set it's hard to see some people when
00:35:51 set it's hard to see some people when they're running around so it was just people running up and down doing their stuff right okay now you then say that and this is
00:36:02 okay now you then say that and this is the first sentence of the first main paragraph on page four I made my way out the stairwell to the fifth floor in company with crew managers stern firefighter video and over the DEA
00:36:17 firefighter video and over the DEA stands for but they burn firefighters Bedelia
00:36:21 Bedelia Bhatia and you can you got DDO burn what is that didi or do can you help us so a rose that well in your statement you called him do your over and then DDO burn I just that's a typo do what that
00:36:33 burn I just that's a typo do what that is and it can be calling fast should be firefighters I have to say we're still without VA and we're not having any issues breathing as the stairwell was clear now the fact that firefighters
00:36:46 clear now the fact that firefighters video and Oberman going up without be a did that concern you given that there were reports of smoke on the fifth and sixth floors that you were going to investigate now they're competent five we all know how to keep safe when the
00:36:59 we all know how to keep safe when the smoke around without Bao right now when watch manager O'Keefe came to the inquiry to give evidence he said and I again I'm summarizing the gist of what
00:37:10 again I'm summarizing the gist of what he said is that after he had committed you and crew manager Stern from the four pose management you came down to the
00:37:22 pose management you came down to the bridge head to tell him about reports of fire on the fifth floor and he then asked you to go up and tell him more about what was going on I didn't I don't really come down to them you don't really tell me than that and I'm sure we
00:37:35 really tell me than that and I'm sure we did you're sure we didn't beckon can I just mention for the record the transcript reference which is 6th of July of pages 35 to 37 so I do that so we can find it later but you don't
00:37:47 we can find it later but you don't remember are you sure we didn't okay do you remember having a discussion at all or whether crew managers Stern had a discussion at all with crewmen
00:37:58 discussion at all with crewmen live.watch manager O'Keefe about your decision to go up to the fifth and sixth floors to look as I said I did and it's possible the crew managed to stir and spoke to him on the radio you then say
00:38:14 spoke to him on the radio you then say in the third line of your on first paragraph on page four when I got to the fifth floor I could see that there was some smoke coming from the flat directly above where the fire flat had been on
00:38:25 above where the fire flat had been on the fourth floor did that alarm you know overly right what did you think was happening
00:38:34 happening I've we've got smoke travel up from the floor below or we've got fire spread out from the door play from the floor below wood fire spread up from the floor below
00:38:45 wood fire spread up from the floor below not alarm you why not I've been doing this for thirty years and this one used to write okay when you
00:38:58 and this one used to write okay when you get to the fifth floor you say there was some smoke could you describe that smoke for us but that the fifth again it was quite white and it was coming around out from around the door was shut and it was
00:39:10 from around the door was shut and it was coming out from around the door frames there wasn't a lot of smoke it was yeah quite grey okay but you could see it seeping out right and you say it was
00:39:24 seeping out right and you say it was coming out from the bottom of the closed door and from all around em from the sides and the top it was seeping out it was it didn't look like it was coming out under pressure right did you have a
00:39:35 out under pressure right did you have a thought at the time about whether that door was doing it was properly smoke sealed no I didn't personally know okay
00:39:46 sealed no I didn't personally know okay in Yorick's in your experience if smoke is coming out of a door like that what would that indicate to you about whether that door was properly smoke sealed or not well clearly if smokes coming out
00:40:00 not well clearly if smokes coming out then it hasn't sealed
00:40:08 did you notice when you arrival of the floor any particular change in temperature now what about visibility in the fifth floor lobby visibility was fine right
00:40:24 and do you know what he said this mate was quite gray was it towards the black end of the spectrum or the knowledge towards white end yeah oh and what would that have indicated to you in terms of
00:40:35 that have indicated to you in terms of what was combusting that there wasn't well it's hard to tell till you get into the flat because the fire could be a distance away from the front door so it's speculation right now when you go
00:40:50 it's speculation right now when you go into the fifth floor lobby who comes with you again I can't be so sure I know commander Stern was there it's possible
00:41:02 commander Stern was there it's possible Dave Badillo and Justin a burn and possibly Chris dogger as well but I can't tell because it was a such a short period and everyone was running in and out and up and down okay
00:41:14 out and up and down okay now you say that you decided and this is some the next sentence in virtually the middle of page four we decided we would set up another fire fighting jet from the dry riser on the outlet of the fifth
00:41:26 the dry riser on the outlet of the fifth floor and make entry to the flat that decision was that part of your role as of as a backup crew that you've been
00:41:37 of as a backup crew that you've been tasked with not necessarily a you tend to do things as and when you're able to do so at the moment we weren't
00:41:48 do so at the moment we weren't necessarily needed down on the fourth floor so you make yourself useful when something more important comes available right okay if it was part of your role
00:42:01 right okay if it was part of your role to to do that and to fight a fire why did you not not come up with a branch ready to do that if that was part of your serve because we initially sent
00:42:15 of your serve because we initially sent it back to throw up right yeah so your role as backup crew change is it yes sir Ralph throughout the night changed it right and that's the flexibility that you would need to change times so so is this right just to summarize tell me if
00:42:27 this right just to summarize tell me if this is wrong when you get to the fifth floor you see the smoke coming out of flat 26 the flat down Julie above the fire flat you were originally tasked to backup and your role changes from being backup to active firefighting yes so you
00:42:41 backup to active firefighting yes so you then look around for firefighting equipment yes wait I had that decision to change that role was yours it didn't come from anyone who'd instructed you um it was the decision that we all made that were on the fifth floor okay we
00:42:53 that were on the fifth floor okay we between us decided we we can set it up and then we were going to get ourselves into four flat was that decision communicated in any way to your knowledge either to Brian our key for the bridgehead or Mike doubt and on the
00:43:05 the bridgehead or Mike doubt and on the incident ground outside not to not my knowledge by States it would have been worth the expense it would have been yes why do you why would you expect it would have been because it was information that they need to know that we've got a
00:43:17 that they need to know that we've got a suspected fire up on the fifth floor now right and you did to your recollection did you see or hear anybody communicating that decision to the
00:43:29 communicating that decision to the bridgehead or to the fire ground I didn't notice it was literally twenty to thirty seconds that all this was happening
00:43:35 happening right so is the answer not a my question Dave yes what you then say that in the
00:43:51 Dave yes what you then say that in the next sentence you had two lengths of 45 mil heads but no brunch say someone called up on the radio for one to be brought up to us following on for my last set of questions do you remember who it was who
00:44:03 questions do you remember who it was who called on the radio no and it might have been that they actually went down the stairs to get one I don't remember I just remember that we didn't have a branch so one of the firefighters without be a sort out they I was radioed
00:44:18 without be a sort out they I was radioed down or they went down themselves go
00:44:23 [Music]
00:44:30 in your statement says someone called up on the radio for one to be brought up I just want to test how how strong that recollection is okay as I said it could have been someone went down to get one
00:44:41 have been someone went down to get one so I'm not sure I just know we tried to get a branch okay do you then say while we were waiting crew manager Stern and I decided we should go and have a look at
00:44:52 decided we should go and have a look at the sixth floor to see what was happening there as smoke had been reported there as well what reports are you are you talking about here from the
00:45:03 you are you talking about here from the initial when we were on the fourth floor to say that there was fire on foot oh sorry there was smoke reported on the no.6 right but to be fair to you can I just capture this in terms of your your
00:45:15 just capture this in terms of your your contemporaneous recollection could you just look at your contemporaneous notes please which is metropoliz ear one three zero five seven got it
00:45:28 zero five seven got it halfway down that page you say
00:45:38 don't was not there now at the top of the screen as we were doing so and this is when you're on the fourth floor oh we were informed off smoke on the fifth and sixth floor so your
00:45:49 fifth and sixth floor so your information at the time your recollection at the time is that you were told of both floors being yes having smoke on that's right okay so it's the same source of information the original one that's wonderful now what
00:46:01 original one that's wonderful now what what just to get back a minute to the sentence in your statements in the first paragraph page four you say while we were waiting for the hose crew manager Stern and I decided we should go and
00:46:12 Stern and I decided we should go and have a look at the safe floor while he were waiting did you did you knock on the door of the flat where smoke was coming out no literally this has
00:46:25 coming out no literally this has happened within 15 seconds 20 seconds okay so we realized we didn't have a branch and then we decided to go upstairs to have a quick look upstairs
00:46:36 upstairs to have a quick look upstairs did you commit did anybody communicate either to the bridgehead or to Mike down dan outside there's a fire in flat 26 again as I said earlier I didn't hear
00:46:49 again as I said earlier I didn't hear that or see anyone do that but I assumed they would you assume they would because we were already of cause we were gonna set a jet up on that floor Robert information would be related to
00:47:01 Robert information would be related to someone because that would been the first point that there was a special suspicion that the fire had spread outside the original flat yes so you assumed that someone would have had that
00:47:12 assumed that someone would have had that information but you can't recall I can't even call that and I didn't have comms on so I was busy doing mine sir did you look through the letterbox we'll try to
00:47:24 look through the letterbox we'll try to look through the letterbox at the state of the smoke logging or fire or anything like that inside to flight 26 I didn't know okay
00:47:33 know okay did you seek to knock on any of the other doors on on floor 5 not that one again why is that because of that point again the
00:47:44 that because of that point again the same is on the fourth oh I've literally walked into the got to the fifth floor to Lynch the house had been bowled out and they said we've got no branch so they mean Jamar stone went up to the
00:47:57 they mean Jamar stone went up to the sixth floor right only when you look at your statement it says while we were waiting the impression given there is the Johanna me about a bit it's not when I'm in waiting the decision we knew that would be a minute or so before we got a
00:48:10 would be a minute or so before we got a branch out right so we decided in that minute we would pop upstairs to sixth and see what was going on at oh I see no I see so so it's not a minute of waiting right as soon as the decision
00:48:21 waiting right as soon as the decision that we haven't got a branch then we decide we're going to gut because we know there's going to be someone running up to four flights of stairs with a branch and that will taken 30 seconds right aside that's the white so that so
00:48:33 right aside that's the white so that so the waiting you use the waiting time to look at the sixth floor not yes not to make the decision to go to this against that's good nothing
00:48:48 you then say in the last sentence of the first paragraph on page four we then went up the stairwell to the sixth floor
00:49:00 went up the stairwell to the sixth floor I can't remember who initiated our actions as we work together as a pair of bouncing ideas of each other and most of all those decisions that were agreed jointly the we there is I'm assuming crew manager Stern is that right okay
00:49:12 crew manager Stern is that right okay now you go up to the sixth floor where were firefighters Badillo and a burn at that point I don't know okay were they with you I believe when we
00:49:23 were they with you I believe when we left they were at least one of them was probably still on the fifth floor but everyone say everyone was moving around right now at the point detailed
00:49:36 around right now at the point detailed questions about people at the point you left the fifth floor yeah you were with Jamal story manager stone do you remember being with anybody else uh not
00:49:47 remember being with anybody else uh not specifically I got I got as we left the fifth floor I got distracted by a member of the public coming out of the flat so to the left of the fire flat so in the
00:49:59 to the left of the fire flat so in the fifth floor on the fifth floor yes as we were going to go up to the sixth floor the door opens to the left-hand side of the fire flap on the fifth floor and a gentleman came to the door and I went
00:50:11 gentleman came to the door and I went over to him and spoke to him now that experience you do Kate you do cover in
00:50:22 experience you do Kate you do cover in your statement but after you'd come back down to the fifth floor I actually had two encounters with him and the first one isn't in my police statement because
00:50:33 one isn't in my police statement because like I didn't reverse it afterwards I'd follow so as you leave the fifth floor to go to the sixth for the first time that somebody comes out to the flat of the flat yeah so I go I went over to him
00:50:46 the flat yeah so I go I went over to him told him you need to get out and he said his wife was in there so I said he needed to go and grab his wife and leave right and then I went up to the sixth floor okay and on your journey to the
00:50:58 floor okay and on your journey to the sixth okay as you leave to go to the sixth floor from the fifth floor on that first occasion do you remember being with Justin Oh burn I don't know do you
00:51:10 with Justin Oh burn I don't know do you remember whether do you remember whether you're alone or with anybody I can tell you whether there was any dairy platform do you remember crew manager Stern's saying anything to you at that point about the 16th floor not right when do
00:51:27 about the 16th floor not right when do you then go up to the sixth floor and this is covered in the second main paragraph on page four of your statement you say on the sixth floor I opened the
00:51:38 you say on the sixth floor I opened the door to the lobby and found a completely filled with thick black smoke with zero visibility in xxx nearly 30 years of service I've never seen smoke like that in a domestic property fire the closest
00:51:51 in a domestic property fire the closest equivalent I can equate it to is the thick black smoke you get from car tires as they burn I'm just just pausing pausing there on that first journey up
00:52:02 pausing there on that first journey up from the 5th to the 6th floor did you pass anybody on the stairs no did you see any firefighters no did you see any residents
00:52:13 you see any residents what were the conditions on the stairs like clear temperature okay normal visibility clear yes no signs of smoke and not like I could say and now we look
00:52:26 and not like I could say and now we look at your those two sentences I've just read to you three sentences I've just read to you from your statement I knew
00:52:38 read to you from your statement I knew then say in the last sentence of that same paragraph this was the first indication I had that this incident was something unusual what was it that was
00:52:51 something unusual what was it that was unusual or had become unusual to you which was not unusual before food at that point their color and their density r2 smoke on the sixth floor right when
00:53:03 r2 smoke on the sixth floor right when you open the door from the stairwell into the sixth full Lobby did smoke come out it would have done yes do you remember it I don't remember it actually coming out I just remember
00:53:14 actually coming out I just remember seeing a wall of smoke in front of me right
00:53:20 you don't you say in your statement you briefly looked into the lobby before closing the door between the lobby and the stairwell again to contain the smoke and that's two lines up for me and one
00:53:34 and that's two lines up for me and one line up from where we've got indicated on the screen and it did smoke remain in the stairwell once you closed I did notice any smoke into this stairwell it's all right I mean it was
00:53:46 stairwell it's all right I mean it was literally I opened it looked at it for 3-4 seconds shut the door straightaway I see and did you
00:53:57 we when you did that open the door and then closed it again were you with anybody I was on my own right did you know whether anybody had gone in
00:54:08 did you know whether anybody had gone in to the smoke on the 6th floor at that time I didn't but afterwards I learnt crew Manchester had actually gone in there before ok did you think you were
00:54:21 there before ok did you think you were on your own at that point yes Oh in that point I wasn't lying Debbie's trying to explore this just a little bit you say in the previous paragraph we went up the stairwell to the sixth floor that gives
00:54:35 stairwell to the sixth floor that gives the impression you go up together did how did you actually go up was was almost I went up on my own at that point as I said that the mechanisms that I understand now is that me and him agreed
00:54:47 understand now is that me and him agreed that we were going to go up to the sixth floor as we left I got distracted by the gentleman open his door crew managed Stern didn't see that he carried on up right he went up to the sixth when he
00:54:58 right he went up to the sixth when he went to the six he opened the door and the smoke was down to just below his head level he looked to his right and see smoke coming out the door on the sixth floor which is slightly open
00:55:09 sixth floor which is slightly open he worked decided he's gonna go and look in that flat when he opened the door fully the lobby must have flooded with smoke and that was the point I then came up opened the door and shut it
00:55:20 up opened the door and shut it immediately I went back downstairs again and he came out after that and came back downstairs know your description just now his experience isn't something that you experience from my experience I went
00:55:33 you experience from my experience I went up there on my own opened the door up realised it was smoke dogs shut the door but I'm straight back down okay alright well we can ask him about what he experienced but I think what you're telling us is that he went up ahead of you and you went up
00:55:45 up ahead of you and you went up afterwards yes now you then say that you decided to go back down to the fifth floor
00:55:55 and that's the last sentence of this st. paragraph
00:55:59 paragraph did he come did you make that decision with crew manager Stern together uh knobs on my own at that point okay when you say crew manager stone and I decided it looks as if you're describing a joint
00:56:11 it looks as if you're describing a joint decision that's a mistake then not XP I was on my own so you're on your own you shut the door and you decide yourself to get back down to the fifth floor yes what were you going to get down to the fifth floor to do well hopefully at
00:56:23 the fifth floor to do well hopefully at that point there the branch would have turned up and the cellphone commander Stern and made entry into the fifth floor we'd also then report it that the sixth floor needed another jet to go up
00:56:35 sixth floor needed another jet to go up to fight whatever was happening on that sixth floor you say we we'd all say then reported that the sixth floor needed another jet do you remember who sent
00:56:48 another jet do you remember who sent that message I doubt that are you mate do you remember a report that the sixth floor needed another jet Walden are you assuming that I'd assumed that yeah I
00:56:59 assuming that I'd assumed that yeah I don't remember that came what thoughts did you have about yourself going up to the sixth floor to fight the fire on the sixth floor well at that point I'd be
00:57:14 sixth floor well at that point I'd be looking to fight the fire on the fifth floor
00:57:15 floor because the jet would have already bins I hope that's what I'd hoped by then about pouring the brands have come up and we'd be ready to go into the fifth floor right
00:57:29 now in terms of sending a message down it's got to put to you something turn watch manager Akif recalls he recalls
00:57:40 watch manager Akif recalls he recalls receiving a message from crew manager stern saying it's it's going it's completely smoked out on this floor does that trigger a recollection in your mind
00:57:52 that trigger a recollection in your mind about a message being sent by tremendous turn to watch manager O'Keefe I believe that message is they actually later on in the evening and it was a message that I gave to them face to face a message that you gave to who face like
00:58:07 a message that you gave to who face like that case at what point when I debriefed him after coming down the 16th floor okay and then I remember distinctly saying that you dismembered seeing
00:58:21 saying that you dismembered seeing distinctly it's completely smoke girls on this floor dear I remember distinctly saying Brian is the floor spot which floor will use occurrence that I was talking about sixteenth floor at
00:58:32 was talking about sixteenth floor at that point C okay right so Keefe remembers getting a message from Stern saying it's reference to sixth law you remember it being part of a face-to-face debrief about the sixteenth
00:58:44 face-to-face debrief about the sixteenth floor
00:58:44 floor yeah tremendous then doesn't talk like that unfortunately I do right it's the sort of evidence we like to have
00:59:05 gives me where to go from there right so you get back to this fifth floor with Stern and you say you found the branch it arrived and that's the last paragraph
00:59:16 it arrived and that's the last paragraph on page four and you say the house was set up and another be a crew had arrived
00:59:27 set up and another be a crew had arrived at the fifth floor and we're getting ready to make entry into the flat which the smoke is coming from by breaking the door down and do you remember who the be a crew was at the time I didn't know what the correct okay we didn't
00:59:39 what the correct okay we didn't recognize that not all right and having seen that they were going to deal with the fire in the in the flat on the fifth
00:59:50 the fire in the in the flat on the fifth floor what did you then plan to do next I didn't have time to plan anything at that point it just unfolded as it did there was no plan in everything happen
01:00:02 there was no plan in everything happen okay you go on to say in the last paragraph on page four that at this point the door of the flat to the left of the flat they were planning to make entry to opened and an adult male appeared I went over to him and told him
01:00:14 appeared I went over to him and told him that he needed to leave immediately etc that I think when you told us earlier is your second encounter means yes so if the door was actually still open and he was still in the doorway or
01:00:25 open and he was still in the doorway or he was flitting back and forwards from the doorway right okay can I just go back to something I should have asked you about the sixth floor you I think
01:00:37 you about the sixth floor you I think you said that this the door was open you could see the door was opened uh and now I could use those but I later learned that crew mantis turned when he went up that smoke was only down to his head
01:00:50 that smoke was only down to his head higher and he could see the door when I open the door that there was zero visibility to the ground I'll take them up with him then fight alright you then say and the
01:01:06 then fight alright you then say and the line before the very end of page four I was then told by firefighter a burn that there was someone on the 16th floor who was trapped and needed help
01:01:18 was trapped and needed help now just just pausing there do you remember getting to the seventh floor at all I don't think I can went to seventh floor
01:01:28 floor right
01:01:34 right now let me just put something to you can I ask you to be shown page 38 of the Orr the Orr is the operational
01:01:45 the Orr the Orr is the operational response report put together by put on the fire brigade on the 24th of May which deals with the first hour of the fire it's of chronology put together from the variety of sources of information I just want to show you page
01:01:59 information I just want to show you page 38 if I can
01:02:11 and 2/3 of the way down that page with the time mark of Oh 1 25 34 it says in italics but shows that it's not absolutely solid evidence an
01:02:23 absolutely solid evidence an unidentified firefighter NBA briefly and enters the seventh floor lobby this is believed to be firefighter Hippel as all other firefighters are accounted for in the building at this time and there's a
01:02:35 the building at this time and there's a camera picture which I don't need to show you because it we can see is the helmet but we would if we need to do do you remember whether you do pop your
01:02:48 you remember whether you do pop your head into the 7th floor I'm pretty sure I didn't you sure you didn't yeah okay let's just perhaps I could put them the photograph to you'll see if you can help with it and the less it's CCTV tab 3 for
01:03:02 with it and the less it's CCTV tab 3 for this witness or Inc inq 5 zeroes to 1/5 that's why I don't know
01:03:19 yeah there it is I don't know whether you can you can assist of any distinguishing marks that might be able to identify that firefighter it's hard
01:03:30 to identify that firefighter it's hard to say I mean to me it looks like that person is not wearing breva nephritis what right why do you say that because you can see clearly sees radio like a little green
01:03:42 clearly sees radio like a little green spot just below the visor that appears Raider and you end behind to the bottom left of the corner you'd probably see the cylinder right in the bottom left-hand corner so to me that looks
01:03:54 left-hand corner so to me that looks like someone that isn't wearing bridging operators right I mean I've also read the fiber gates phonology document and some of their
01:04:06 phonology document and some of their chronology and timings that are out of what I experienced so I'm pretty shun 99% sure I never went up to the 7th floor right okay thank you
01:04:22 so we're now at the point when you're given information by firefighter Oh burn you say that there was someone on the 16th floor who was trapped and needed help
01:04:34 help do you remember where you were when you've got that information it would have been just as I came back down to the fifth floor and as always walking over to speak to
01:04:47 and as always walking over to speak to the gentleman that come out this door right now while you were on the fifth floor
01:04:55 you told us about the other be a crew about to make entry into the flat were there any other firefighters on the fifth floor in the lobby at this point
01:05:07 fifth floor in the lobby at this point what about firefighter Padilla
01:05:13 what about firefighter Oh burn to be honestly again I cannot say okay and what were the conditions like on the fifth floor at that point they were still fine now okay
01:05:25 still fine now okay could you see into the could you see into the flat where the fire was on but neither door was still shut mr. shott now you say you were told by firefighter Oh burn in your statement that there was
01:05:36 Oh burn in your statement that there was someone on the sixth floor was trapped
01:05:41 who were you with when you received that information again I I I cants act 400 censure and he might not be ingesting a burner told me it might have been the
01:05:54 burner told me it might have been the knowledge I had was that someone else said Justin no burn says that so it might have been Jamal Stern that told me had never been another firefighter right I don't remember seeing anyone because
01:06:05 I don't remember seeing anyone because at that point I was focused on the gentleman that just come out and I was walking towards him and I just remember having that information now joste no burn has given evidence about about
01:06:16 burn has given evidence about about about where he was when he learned about somebody trapped on the 16th floor and he says he was around about the ninth floor
01:06:26 floor and just for our rain purposes that's day 15 and page 19 in the transcript that's that's his recollection what would you say about about that that's
01:06:37 would you say about about that that's more than possible it may have been that each radio down and someone else has intercepted that message and I've maybe Jamel stone inset to there and then that's been relayed to me so that it's
01:06:48 that's been relayed to me so that it's more than possible yes so you don't remember who told you we don't actually remember who told you no I don't I put in a statement that I thought it was
01:06:59 in a statement that I thought it was just an iPhone because later honors were going up to 16th I remember him being with us at a certain point so maybe I just extrapolate from that that it was him that are told this but I don't definitely know from told us that
01:07:10 definitely know from told us that information right now you you use the words in your statement that someone on the 16th was trapped trapped I needed
01:07:25 the 16th was trapped trapped I needed help
01:07:28 do you remember the words used to communicate to you the condition the the how someone was trapped on the 16th my
01:07:40 how someone was trapped on the 16th my recollection is I was told there's someone on 16th floor that can't get out right
01:07:50 any more than that and that was it do you remember being told anything about the trapped person being bedridden or bed-bound nah we won't write
01:08:10 now when much manager O'Keefe came to give effort illness he said in its day 18 pages 124 to 127 and I give you the
01:08:21 18 pages 124 to 127 and I give you the gist of it that he briefed crew managers stern to go to the 16th floor as he had been told that there was a resident who needed rescuing there do you remember
01:08:33 needed rescuing there do you remember any kind of briefing coming from the bridgehead to go to the 16th floor I didn't personally but I know that when I went to speak to the gentleman that come
01:08:46 went to speak to the gentleman that come out the door crew manager Sturm was on his radio so he was having some contacts at that point so when you came out of the door now as we came down back to the
01:08:58 the door now as we came down back to the fifth floor and I was going over to the gentleman that had come out of the door to the left of the firefighter on the fifth floor that was when I was told them someone on the 16th floor that
01:09:09 them someone on the 16th floor that can't gets out right I see and I remember and at that point your mouse turn got on his radio and I see okay and you know who he spoke to
01:09:19 to I don't know I'm assuming he was iver he was talking to the projector to tell them the information that we had say and that's okay so as you came down to the fifth from
01:09:30 so as you came down to the fifth from the sixth so this is your second visit to the fifth but this time coming from above you do you remember being with Jamal Stone once we got back into the
01:09:42 Jamal Stone once we got back into the lobby of the fifth yeah I said he was there whoever he he came down after me yeah so yeah at some point he comes back and joins me on the fifth floor as well at that point do you remember him being on the radio or I remember making a call
01:09:54 on the radio or I remember making a call on the radio yeah while you were in the lobby on the fifth floor circuit time yes before we went up to the sixth that's two four we went up to the 16th yeah before you went to the 60s and you remember the decision to go to the 16th
01:10:06 remember the decision to go to the 16th - did that take place after do you remember him having this radio conversation I can't now it may have been before and make them it may well be that he raged bridgehead and Brian no Keith did say go
01:10:18 bridgehead and Brian no Keith did say go out at 16 or it may have been that we said we've got this report we're going up to 16 I didn't have that conversation but right it was had okay
01:10:37 um do you remember just being told at that point which flat to go to no we won't do you remember it being told at any stage which flat to go to another
01:10:50 any stage which flat to go to another one did it surprise you who you were being sent to do a rescue on the 16th floor without knowing which flat to go to at that point of woodenness it didn't end in my mind that it was a rescue we
01:11:01 end in my mind that it was a rescue we were going up 12 fours above the fire flat it's not unusual to get calls and reports of people that can't get out that are starting to panic elderly people disabled people and it's
01:11:13 elderly people disabled people and it's not unusual to go up reassure them make sure they're safe and come back down again so at that point I personally wasn't looking at rescuing anybody you say it wasn't a rescue but you were told
01:11:24 say it wasn't a rescue but you were told that someone was trapped if they've trapped why wasn't it a rescue I believed it we were told and I put trapped in my statement because later on it obviously became a rescue but at that
01:11:35 it obviously became a rescue but at that point I believe we were told there's somebody that can't get out and that's not an unusual occurrence in a large building but still if they can't leaving
01:11:46 building but still if they can't leaving aside the word trapped if they can't get out why wouldn't they be in need of rescue because we have a stay put policy that if they're safe 12 floors above for five flat we wouldn't even think about
01:11:59 five flat we wouldn't even think about bringing them out there flat would go up and reassure them make sure that they are safe and leave them there I see so we just don't understand so so
01:12:11 I see so we just don't understand so so - your way of thinking the fact that somebody couldn't get out didn't necessarily mean that you had to bring them out it that not at all and the alternative is I think as you've just told us to go into the flat check they're okay they've still got
01:12:22 they're okay they've still got breathable air that happens at most fires in large buildings people will be concerned smell smoke hear that it sirens see they see the blue lights and
01:12:33 sirens see they see the blue lights and now get concerned and now and so check that they are okay okay
01:12:49 yet and again just to pin this to your contemporaneous note if I can just ask you to be showing your contemporaneous notes on the first page you you record
01:13:03 notes on the first page you you record halfway down you say at this point
01:13:11 we were informed that someone was on the 16th floor unable to leave so that's how you remember it is it yeah okay now crew
01:13:27 you remember it is it yeah okay now crew manager Stern is going to come later today to give some evidence but his recollection is it appears to be different and we'll explore this with him but can I just put his recollection to you he says that he and Justin a burn
01:13:49 to you he says that he and Justin a burn met a gentleman called Sam on the stairs when when leaving the fifth floor and
01:13:59 being told but I think he says the sixth floor and is told that Sam's father was
01:14:14 floor and is told that Sam's father was bedridden and trapped on the 16th floor and needed help to get him out that's his recollection as per his statement can you comment on that I didn't get that information right you didn't get
01:14:27 that information right you didn't get that information do you have a do you have a recollection about whether from your from what you saw and heard Jamal Stern got that information do you have a recollection from what you observed
01:14:39 recollection from what you observed about whether Jamal Stern got that information I don't know you'd have to ask him that his recollection is that you you he just a no burn and Sam all
01:14:52 you you he just a no burn and Sam all went up from the fifth or sixth I think as he's got it floor to the 16th is that how you were how you remember it I remember vaguely seeing Justin as we
01:15:05 remember vaguely seeing Justin as we were going up the stairs but that was very
01:15:10 right as you said earlier you might have not used it's possible that you might have met him on the way up I vaguely remember seeing him as we were going up yes do you remember seeing him in
01:15:22 yes do you remember seeing him in company with anybody else and you did meet him on the way up right you say no I don't remember do you men do you remember not meeting him so I offered a different way do you remember when you met him he was alone or was he with somebody I didn't I didn't actually meet
01:15:35 somebody I didn't I didn't actually meet him he was going up in the same direction us and if I'd caught a couple of glimpses of him going up in the same direction as us I didn't see anyone going up I didn't see any members of the public going up that's all that night
01:15:47 public going up that's all that night right
01:15:56 for the top of page five of your statement at the end of the first paragraph there you say I believe pre
01:16:08 paragraph there you say I believe pre manager stone then informed ba control that we were going up to the 16th floor is that the same radio conversation between crew manager Stern and youth and
01:16:20 between crew manager Stern and youth and the bridge head that you described earlier yes okay you say informed to be a control it looks like when you did your statements that you you were pretty clear that whoever it was crew manages
01:16:31 clear that whoever it was crew manages turn was speaking to it was the bridge head that would be my assumption yes right is that is that assumption because that would be the channel to which his radio yeah because as that time he'd be
01:16:43 radio yeah because as that time he'd be on channel 6 and the only other people that would be on channel 6 would be the bridge head and the to be a cruiser or in into the flyer right would it be possible or customary so I put that all
01:16:54 possible or customary so I put that all the way around would it be customary or possible for crew manager Stern wearing VA to be able to communicate direct with Mike Downton No okay now you then say in
01:17:05 Mike Downton No okay now you then say in the second paragraph on page five I started to make my way up to the 16th floor together with crew manager Stern and firefighter a burn on the basis of what we've been discussing earlier this
01:17:17 what we've been discussing earlier this morning how confident are you that you actually made that journey with firefighter a burn I said whoever it was the whole journey or whether I'd seen him as we were going up and from that
01:17:30 him as we were going up and from that that's what I put in my statement I've extrapolated he was there all the time with us I remember him being there part of us like that journey right of wherever he was there at the start and
01:17:41 wherever he was there at the start and I'm pretty sure he wasn't there at the end
01:17:44 end I don't know whoever he was there at the start he might we may have gone past him on the higher floor and then I was jacked dated that he was there okay all along
01:17:53 along I can't honestly remember that did you have any firefighting equipment with you to go to the 16th floor now given what
01:18:04 to go to the 16th floor now given what you were you'd seen yourself on the fifth and sixth floors particularly and given the reports about smoke on the 16th floor why did you go up to the 16th floor without any firefighting equipment
01:18:15 floor without any firefighting equipment first at that point we didn't have any that was there and secondly my anticipation of that we weren't going up to do rescues or to break any doors down
01:18:26 to do rescues or to break any doors down we were going up 12 flights above the fire to assist and keep someone calm and reassuring didn't did you have any thoughts at that time having left the
01:18:38 thoughts at that time having left the fifth floor to go to the 16th and having seen conditions on the sixth floor as you described them did you have any thoughts about why the conditions were
01:18:49 thoughts about why the conditions were so bad on the 16th floor a full 10 floors up I didn't know at that point the conditions were I only know that knew that my anticipation that were
01:19:00 knew that my anticipation that were there will be no smoke above the 6th floor right so when you had the information about the 16th floor
01:19:13 am i right in thinking that you then and you didn't or all you had was that somebody needed assistance because they couldn't get out as opposed to being told about the conditions there the only thing I was told was there's someone on
01:19:24 thing I was told was there's someone on the 16th floor that cannot leave that's it no more information right and why would they need assistance being well
01:19:37 would they need assistance being well did you have any thoughts about why they needed assistance 10 floors above the fire you'd seen in circumstances where there was a stay put policy in place for the building as I've said to earlier it's not an uncommon thing that people
01:19:49 it's not an uncommon thing that people smell smoke see flashing lights hear sirens get a phone call and they start to panic and they need reassurance so it's a common occurrence in virtually every fire Lord in a large building
01:20:01 every fire Lord in a large building right you have to go and reassure people that sometimes quite a way away from where the seat the fire is did you have any thoughts to the effect that the fire had spread as all smoke had spread as
01:20:12 had spread as all smoke had spread as far as the 16th floor none whatsoever none whatsoever no okay now on the way up the stairs you say on page 5 of your
01:20:23 up the stairs you say on page 5 of your statement in the third paragraph I'm sorry the second paragraph you were passed by members of the public evacuating downstairs
01:20:34 evacuating downstairs did you ask yourself why there were people evacuating at that stage now again it's not a common uncommon occurrence people as for the reasons I've told I just said they see these
01:20:47 I've told I just said they see these things slowly sings and they make the decision themselves that they're going to get out of the building no it happens at every large fire you see you saw about 20 people coming down but what roughly what point on your
01:20:59 down but what roughly what point on your journey from the 5th to the 16th floor did you encounter them I couldn't yeah it's I I could make that say probably within 2 or 3 floors we were going past people okay I see where they
01:21:12 going past people okay I see where they all in the group or where they come now the neighborhood groups and drabs individuals Bruce yeah and you say you told them to move quickly down the stairs fifth line down from the top of
01:21:25 stairs fifth line down from the top of the first paragraph on page five
01:21:32 were you encouraging them to evacuate no it's just people in those situations as very panicky so I tend to try and talk to people who look like they're
01:21:43 to people who look like they're distressed older people that are more likely to trip over if they're rushing it's just a matter of trying to calm and down and they've already made its decision they're gonna go I'm not gonna tell him otherwise just to try and calm
01:21:55 tell him otherwise just to try and calm and down but to keep them moving did you ask any of them where they come from and that floors or flats they come from now did any of them show any signs of smoke inhalation none hustle will know them spluttering a
01:22:08 none hustle will know them spluttering a coffin at the hotel did the fact that you saw so many people coming down the stairs have any thoughts about what might be going on on the higher floors
01:22:20 might be going on on the higher floors where they come from no again at that point it was not an unreasonable number and people to be passing on the stairs on a fire that was three floors by that point I was I'd believe the three floors now you say in
01:22:32 believe the three floors now you say in the same paragraph three layers up from the end that you saw someone wearing a pair of boxer shorts and swimming goggles and you say I remember thinking
01:22:44 goggles and you say I remember thinking that this was that that was smart that he had a sense to put those on to get through the smoke
01:22:54 did the fact that one of the residents have chosen to put swimming goggles on to get through the smoke prompt any thoughts in your mind about how far the smoke had spread - I think as I say my
01:23:05 smoke had spread - I think as I say my statement after that that incident might have been later renewed and I says I say a couple of lines down you do on the statement all right I think that was actually later on when I was aware of
01:23:16 actually later on when I was aware of how bad the fire was gay right now in the third paragraph on page five which starts we carry your caried on up the
01:23:28 starts we carry your caried on up the stairwell I remember seeing crew managers Stern but I think firefighter heard there was a head etc you then say the visibility was good all the way up and the lights were on but we did have
01:23:39 and the lights were on but we did have issues with knowing which floor we were on because the labeling in the stairwell was awful sometimes the floor number was just written on the wall in Bhairo other times it was a tiny that the sign you
01:23:50 times it was a tiny that the sign you had to look for I was counting as we went but it would often go three or four floors with no indication of which floor you were on we tried to count the floors until he got up to the 16th I don't remember if there was a sign for the 16th or not no I've read all that to you
01:24:04 16th or not no I've read all that to you because I want to ask you was that numbering system that you have just described usual in your experience it's not unusual to be in a block of flats where you struggle to farm what floor
01:24:16 where you struggle to farm what floor you're on right and did the form of numbering by row or a tiny little sign did that did that hold you up at all we teach to stop a couple of times all I
01:24:28 teach to stop a couple of times all I stopped a couple of times pipe my heads into lobbies to see if there was numbers within lobbies so yeah but not a lot did
01:24:40 within lobbies so yeah but not a lot did it op did it do you think or do you remember effect operations generally not for me personally no okay what about okay did did you look into any of the floors on your way up I don't remember
01:24:54 floors on your way up I don't remember but it's possible I might poke my head in xsa to see if there was a nun in the left and lift Lobby right so you're going up we've heard about where
01:25:07 you're going up we've heard about where you might have met mr. firefighter Oh burn
01:25:10 burn what about crew managers Stern was he with you all the way up from the 5th of the 16th I don't really remember seeing him as we've going up Stern yeah he may have been behind me might be in front of
01:25:21 have been behind me might be in front of me as a south stopping down again talking to members in public I don't remember he would have been with me but I don't remember seeing him per se
01:25:32 se I see say that you say he would have been with me was in close proximity to you as he went my boy would would have been within a floor of each other okay were you ahead of him or behind you I
01:25:43 were you ahead of him or behind you I can't tell you that okay now you then say that you got to the 16th floor and this is in the last paragraph on page five of your statement and the lobby was
01:25:58 five of your statement and the lobby was the door to the lobby was open and the same black smoke I hadn't counted on the sixth floor was coming out what did that tell you
01:26:08 tell you seeing that smoke about the fire spread or smoke spread now nothing for definite just told me that there was the same smoke that was on the sixth floor did
01:26:20 smoke that was on the sixth floor did it's true but did it surprise you to see I so much smoke on the 16th floor ten floors above it did surprise me yes it did and did it having surprised you did
01:26:31 did and did it having surprised you did you then have any thoughts about what might be happening to the building
01:26:36 obviously different thoughts go through your mind but not particularly did I think about it at that point what did you think about the speed with which the
01:26:47 you think about the speed with which the fire or smoke was moving up the building like it would have been possible safe for it to smoke to travel up the lift shaft of a pin shafts highly unlikely for the amount of smoke
01:27:01 highly unlikely for the amount of smoke that was in there so I knew there was something going wrong badly right
01:27:12 now you say that the lobby door was being held open by a man and you go on to say you subsequently learned his called Sam and then you identify him are
01:27:27 called Sam and then you identify him are you how clear are you in your recollection that the first time you saw this man you identify as Sam was at the point that which you arrived at the 16th floor and going to the lobby day so
01:27:39 floor and going to the lobby day so second how sure are you in your recollection that the first time you see Sam is when you arrive at the 16th floor and go into the lobby there I believe I've since learned that that that the gently teenager that was there probably
01:27:52 gently teenager that was there probably wasn't the gentleman I know is Sam I was after the incident I met up with another gentleman that we did rescue out of
01:28:04 gentleman that we did rescue out of there and we may have got our stories crossed right so important I make my police statement I believed for the gentleman that was propping the door open what sound I'm now led to believe
01:28:15 open what sound I'm now led to believe it probably wasn't okay I just didn't want to get your unvarnished recollection of what you remember yeah as we can go to the or contemporaneous notes then first page and you say three
01:28:32 notes then first page and you say three quarters of the way down on getting to the sixteenth floor just highlight that for you
01:28:42 they're just 2/3 of the way down the screen you say on getting to the 16th floor we found a man and then there's a
01:28:59 floor we found a man and then there's a little more it's a man something by the door into the lobby it looks like a deletion of the word on and then you put your initials as that yeah yes that's
01:29:11 your initials as that yeah yes that's why I only did that way yeah okay and the man you recorded saying who said there was someone in the someone in
01:29:25 there was someone in the someone in there I think it's what is that what yes yes you said there's someone in there right now you made these notes immediately after the incident yep it
01:29:36 immediately after the incident yep it does that capture your recollection accurately pretty much we got when I got up to the 16th floor I may as well been the first up there's I don't remember Jamel being up there right so when I got
01:29:48 Jamel being up there right so when I got up to there there was a teenage a teenager maybe 15 17 crouched in the doorway propping the door open there was
01:29:59 doorway propping the door open there was smoke coming out I don't remember now him telling me that there was someone in there but he may well have told me there was someone in there right
01:30:10 if I put it in my countenance notes then he he probably did tell me there was someone in them do you remember when you got to the 16th floor do you remember where firefighter Oh burn was I don't
01:30:23 where firefighter Oh burn was I don't remember seeing him up on a sixteenth water when you got to the 16th floor and open them and saw this man do you remember where crew manager Stern was I don't remember seeing him that points
01:30:36 don't remember seeing him that points I'm assuming he was behind me right you say in your statement
01:30:45 he looked concerned this is the male who you refer to as Sam and I assumed he was the source of concern about the person trapped but we didn't have any conversation with him about this you say
01:30:57 conversation with him about this you say we didn't have any conversation it was the we I mean we as in the as a be a crew I mean so I wouldn't be concerned by it right when you saw him crouching
01:31:10 by it right when you saw him crouching holding the door open yeah yeah I think you told us you were you were you weren't with Stern or a burns that I didn't see him they Eve was properly just behind me but again because I say
01:31:22 just behind me but again because I say to you quite insular you only sees stuff straight in front of you and you concentrate and then you're also to hear people you when you exhale out a debris
01:31:33 people you when you exhale out a debris insist they make a lot of noise so after don't coming up 12 floors you're trying to control your breathing so you can talk to people you can hear people you know it's quite hard having conversations with members of the public
01:31:46 conversations with members of the public can be quite awkward yes
01:31:51 did was there a reason why you didn't have a conversation with the man crouching down about the person that you had learned couldn't leave not
01:32:02 had learned couldn't leave not particularly now service yeah just working quickly and right yeah did you not ask him which flat you need sunny be asking this way did did you ask him what flat you needed to go to and I we do was
01:32:14 flat you needed to go to and I we do was there a reason why you didn't not particularly uh just probably in the heist in the moment having seen that the conditions in the sixteenth floor lobby were smoke logged as you've described
01:32:25 were smoke logged as you've described how are you going to be able to identify in the flat where the person needed help without knowing which glad to go to we would have searched it yeah but we've hindsight obviously we should have had more clean invitation with him seeing
01:32:37 more clean invitation with him seeing the conditions and seeing the manned probably I got a feel for why you didn't ask him which flat we need to continue to go to in the interests of speed just a hey of alignment early right okay you
01:32:52 a hey of alignment early right okay you say that you told Sam to close the door and go downstairs because you were worried that he would become incapacitated because of the smoke that's the top of page six of your of your statement yep what about
01:33:05 your statement yep what about firefighter Rayburn who was not wearing BA did you have the similar concern about him what the concern would have been in general to maintain the integrity of the of the whole of the stairwell right do you remember what
01:33:18 stairwell right do you remember what happened to the man you refer to as Sam I assumed he went down the stairs he he went in that direction and yeah did you see him go down he I saw him start to go down the first fly upstairs here right
01:33:35 mr. chairman may now be an appropriate moment for a break I know it's a four minutes past 11:00 but I am running an hour and a half so I think in the subject I'm very happy to go on and continue and finish if I can I'm after
01:33:52 witness but well until you finish how long do it likely to be a lot of time short but yeah your best guess to the best shot another 45 minutes to an hour
01:34:03 best shot another 45 minutes to an hour maximum no maximum oh I think we all need a break before midday and 45 minutes maximum even so I think everyone
01:34:17 minutes maximum even so I think everyone was probably working a break before 10 to 12 so I guess we'll take it now well you've heard what mr. minute says he's got a few more questions for you so
01:34:29 got a few more questions for you so we'll stop and have a break until 20 + 11 and then we'll carry on them right okay so you like together the usher please so and please don't talk to anyone about your evidence over the
01:34:41 anyone about your evidence over the break
01:34:45 24/7 please very good
01:34:56 you
01:51:39 right the Sifl yes carry on that yeah thank you very much this will fail it's coming back to us can I just ask you one or two questions about your journey up
01:51:50 or two questions about your journey up from the 5th to the 16th floor yep in your statement at page 5 in the first main paragraph there you describe encountering a group of approximately 20
01:52:01 encountering a group of approximately 20 people in dribs and drabs you said earlier and you spoke to them as they passed in your conversations with them do you remember whether they gave you any information about smoke spread even
01:52:12 any information about smoke spread even fire spread to their flats or floors no it didn't
01:52:16 it didn't right now firefighter Oh burn describe hearing a woman screaming at some floor he remembers between the eighth and the twelfth floor and sending her down
01:52:29 twelfth floor and sending her down that was his recollection did you did you hear or see something similar I think here we'll see anything that concerned me on my journey up at home until I got to the 16th floor right ok
01:52:44 on your way up the conditions I think you've described as clear yes is there a reason why and maybe there is but is there a reason why you didn't turn off
01:52:56 there a reason why you didn't turn off your be a set to conserve air because that's what we're taught to do if you start turning your sets off it raises alarms downstairs on the BI
01:53:07 it raises alarms downstairs on the BI boards and yeah now in your state rooms you say on the fifth floor fifth page and then over to the sixth page how you
01:53:21 and then over to the sixth page how you encountered the gentleman standing there sitting there and at the top of page six
01:53:32 sitting there and at the top of page six you say I didn't speak to him any further than that and crew manager Stern and I decided to search the floor for the person we had been told was trapped
01:53:44 the person we had been told was trapped there um that decision you made with crew manager Stern where did you make that decision outside the door of the lobby so he joined you two teeth yeah we
01:53:59 lobby so he joined you two teeth yeah we were there at some point yes sir do you remember whether the man you could see him crouching down holding the door open was still there when to manager Stern joined you or had he gone I can't remember now right now the
01:54:12 I can't remember now right now the decision to search the floor for the person we had been told was trapped as what you say in a statement at that stage did you discuss the fact that somebody was trapped no it would have
01:54:26 somebody was trapped no it would have been a media let's go searches so when you say in your statement the person we had been told was trapped there the description of them as trapped is that your recollection of something you'd
01:54:38 your recollection of something you'd been told or was that is that your offices I put trapped there now after this after the fact at the time at the time we went up with I
01:54:51 time at the time we went up with I believe that if someone that couldn't get out when we get up there and there's loads of smoke there then we maybe then my perception of it changes so there might be someone trapped here right so
01:55:03 might be someone trapped here right so you know your thought process is ya know as soon as I see this we see the smoke you know our thought process has changed from going to reassure something that now we might be needed to rescue
01:55:14 now we might be needed to rescue somebody right and at that stage came back to a point I I asked you about it earlier would it not be essential for you to know what fright you had to go to yes it wasn't yes it did you take any
01:55:26 yes it wasn't yes it did you take any steps to find out not at that point what about crew managers turned you he took any steps I was I really did know how are you going to go about finding the flat in that thick smoke it was
01:55:38 the flat in that thick smoke it was gonna be hard yes would it not have assisted you to know which flat number to go to of course it would yes which is why I asked the question why didn't you then try to find out through the radio
01:55:49 then try to find out through the radio because well at that point radios weren't working ah okay do you know whether I mean you didn't have your Fargo radio on and you had no Barry but what about crew manager Stern he had the
01:56:01 what about crew manager Stern he had the barrier net whatever wasn't working by up one how did you know that well I assumed from from telling him telling me after the fact I see did you see him trying to make a radio contact and I they haven't seen
01:56:13 radio contact and I they haven't seen him not at that point now and you then say on page 6 of your statement that crew manager stern took the lead and went into the sixteenth floor lobby and head of me he decided he was going to go
01:56:26 head of me he decided he was going to go on in on his belly so I followed his lead we didn't have any firefighting media do you mean by that you had no no water effectively yeah right so no how
01:56:39 water effectively yeah right so no how is no brunch would that be normal procedure
01:56:45 it's not normal procedure but yeah it's dirt right I wouldn't be normal procedure to enter a smoke logged lobby without anything to effect a rescue but
01:56:57 without anything to effect a rescue but have now become a rescue without any firefighting media not by policy but we do right you say we do it you do it because you have to oh I don't have no
01:57:09 because you have to oh I don't have no choice so how it is risky
01:57:17 now at that moment at that stage you've seen the smoke and you realize that whoever needed reassurance now I think had gone from that to being trapped as
01:57:29 had gone from that to being trapped as you said the thought process changed did you have any discussion with anybody at the moment you entered the 16th floor lobby about whether the person you were
01:57:41 lobby about whether the person you were going to now rescue was bed bound or bedridden in any way not right
01:57:53 understeers clarify that it's still possible that they wouldn't necessarily need rescuing if they were behind the door and safely behind the door in a flat that wasn't affected by the smoke
01:58:04 flat that wasn't affected by the smoke the chances are we would have left them there as long as they were still safe so it wasn't necessarily a case of rescuing them out of the flat or out of a flat
01:58:17 them out of the flat or out of a flat now firefighter crew manager Stern it recalls that before you entered the lobby he Stern asked the man who was
01:58:31 lobby he Stern asked the man who was with where the flat was and got the answer to the right of the door do you remember something like that discussion that I didn't hear that conversation okay
01:58:49 No
01:58:54 on page 11 of your statement if I could just jump ahead you say in the second
01:59:05 just jump ahead you say in the second half of the third paragraph on that page
01:59:12 unfortunately them and the man we had actually come up to find was the father of the young man Sam I had met in the doorway of the sixteenth floor lobby briefly I'm just pausing there did you
01:59:26 briefly I'm just pausing there did you know that at the time or was that something you found out later that was something I found out later and I've believed now from forever on that that is incorrect as well that the guy that
01:59:38 is incorrect as well that the guy that the young teenage guy that was in the doorway wasn't in fact Sam do you know who did you ever find out who it was no do you remember what he looked mean you've described early looked like did you describe his hair dark okay
01:59:52 you describe his hair dark okay what's it a hairstyle I'm sorry to ask that question but it may help it was possibly side party bird that's a fleeting memory so yeah and you then go on to say mr. Devon told me that Sam
02:00:07 on to say mr. Devon told me that Sam lived in a flat near his on the 16th floor with his father Joe who was bed bound and the Sam had come down to ask for help in getting his dad out and then that that information that you got from
02:00:19 that that information that you got from mr. Devon I think I'm right in saying is much late much after the fire yes I was in the meeting we had in November time I played between the fire and me right
02:00:30 played between the fire and me right having this police statement taken and then you say the full information didn't get through to crew manager Stern and myself as we just knew someone was on the 16th floor entrapped but not that they were in a flat and were bed banned
02:00:42 they were in a flat and were bed banned so to be clear first of all are you saying there that at the time you entered the 16th floor you did not know that the person you had to assist was in
02:00:53 that the person you had to assist was in a flat I didn't at any point either there
02:00:56 there someone in fact and I and I know point you that about a person being bed bound right and you say that that was all we
02:01:08 right and you say that that was all we knew are you speaking there in your statement for the knowledge of crew manager Stern as well as yourself I would have assumed that but you'd have to ask him herself if you'd known that
02:01:23 to ask him herself if you'd known that you were looking for a man in a flat who was vet bound and not just trapped by the fire somewhere on the floor what would you have done do you think yeah if you'd known at the time that you were
02:01:34 you'd known at the time that you were looking for a man who was bed bound and in a flat what would you have done what you mean again if we had the key if it was locked the chances are at that
02:01:46 it was locked the chances are at that point with the knowledge that I had of what's going on the fire I would have probably as long as he was safe from free of smoke his flats free of smoke I'd have probably left in there rather
02:01:57 I'd have probably left in there rather than rather than bringing him out through a smoke-filled lobby and extricate him down 16th floor it would have my judgment at that point would have been it was safer to leave him there with that okay but at the time you
02:02:10 there with that okay but at the time you didn't know what the air conditions were like in the in the relevant flat no I would have had to gain entry to that flat right and I think you told us you didn't know even which light it was no
02:02:22 didn't know even which light it was no and we'd have had to have the keys we won't have been out sir break the door down because if we broke the door down and the smoke from the lobby would have definitely ended a flat and then would be searching for him in a
02:02:34 and then would be searching for him in a smoke-filled flat ok now in the first main paragraph on page 6 of your statement you say in the second line the visibility was zero even when I put my hand right up to my face master I
02:02:45 hand right up to my face master I couldn't see it the visibility was so poor what about temperature in the lobby general average temperature was fine did you see any fire no what color was
02:02:58 did you see any fire no what color was the smoke black and did you see a neutral plane now as far as whoever's down to the floor right and you then go
02:03:11 down to the floor right and you then go on to say just a little bit later on in that paragraph three lines up from the end I asked to me see crew manager Stern was ahead of me and I
02:03:23 crew manager Stern was ahead of me and I would estimate we had only gone a few meters into the lobby before he shouted to me that he'd found someone that say is that right that you hadn't gone into any flat at that stage now we'd
02:03:35 any flat at that stage now we'd literally gone two meters into the lobby from the stairwell okay and you then go on to say Who an adjustor and then pulled the person out of the lobby with
02:03:47 pulled the person out of the lobby with my assistance when they got back leveled image how far from the lobby door were you at the stage when you encountered the person me person I was probably about two meters in Jamel was probably
02:04:00 about two meters in Jamel was probably three meters in something like that no he was just in front of me within touching distance were you standing all you crawling we were Corbin it you were both calling this so when Jamal Stern encountered the person was that person
02:04:13 encountered the person was that person standing or lying down she left to ask him that vicar you go on to say that you were very close to the lobby door
02:04:25 were very close to the lobby door do you remember happens of June how hard place and me personally yeah I was probably one to two meters in right was the lobby door closed or was it still open I've got a feeling the lobby doors
02:04:38 open I've got a feeling the lobby doors still probably held open by my feet as I was lying dark now you then say in the third paragraph on page six when we were
02:04:49 third paragraph on page six when we were back in the relatively smoke-free stairwell I saw a male who I nom there was a
02:04:54 was a to farm he was coughing but conscious unable to walk so after a moment we guided him to the stair and told him to leave he was able to do so without any assistance from us now
02:05:07 assistance from us now do you know where the man you originally thought was Sam was at that point I don't remember seeing anyone at the 16th floor at that point now what about
02:05:19 floor at that point now what about Justin Oh burn no I don't believe a saw just in a burn after we were traveling up for to 16 crew managers Stern's
02:05:31 up for to 16 crew managers Stern's recollection and in gist is that sac the person you've described as Sam was still there when ever Devon came out of the 16th floor lobby into the stairs it's
02:05:44 16th floor lobby into the stairs it's possible if he did I did if he was I didn't say okay so you don't remember seeing that no right
02:05:56 just to put the slightly fuller picture to you Sam that is the son of the gentleman who was trapped has given an
02:06:07 gentleman who was trapped has given an inquiry statement and says that he waited with a firefighter on the 11th floor stairs and ever deform past them before the firefighters who've gone to
02:06:19 before the firefighters who've gone to the 16th floor came down can you help with whether that's correct or not that may well be yes no reason to doubt that right now
02:06:36 that right now when Edward de Fon came out did you speak to him I can't remember if it was
02:06:48 speak to him I can't remember if it was it was just he okay can you get downstairs right nothing more to learn now in the third paragraph on page six which is where we are just a little bit
02:06:59 which is where we are just a little bit further on in the fourth line you say we decided to finish searching the sixteenth floor but I believed that it was likely that Edward was the male we'd been asked to go and assist we've been
02:07:10 been asked to go and assist we've been reported as trapped on the 16th floor
02:07:14 now given that he was conscious and was walking why did you assume that he was in fact the person who had been trapped on that floor it was a assumption that I
02:07:27 on that floor it was a assumption that I made because we'd had to put him out I didn't know whether he'd been on the floor when we got in there or so I'd assumed we'd pulled him out right say
02:07:40 assumed we'd pulled him out right say was your assumption at that stage that the mission to rescue the trapped person on the 16th floor had been accomplished well it wasn't compass because that was
02:07:52 well it wasn't compass because that was never our initial intention to go up sixteenth floor its initial intention to gut sixteenth floor was to reassure someone that wasn't able to leave it only became a rescue mission once we got
02:08:03 only became a rescue mission once we got to a 16th floor and then our priorities changed as we saw the conditions in front of us right after as you've said before and just now the conditions
02:08:14 before and just now the conditions changed and you knew you needed to make a rescue when you saw ever too far conscious and walking going down the stairs did you then think to yourself yes but let me ask it this way what
02:08:25 yes but let me ask it this way what thoughts did you have in your own mind about whether your mission to rescue had been carried out I believed the person mr. Diwan
02:08:36 mr. Diwan fool doubt was the person that we'd come up to that couldn't escape yes right but did you discuss that fact or your audio
02:08:47 did you discuss that fact or your audio your thought about that fact with crew manager Stone no did you or crew manager Stern at that stage make any communication with the bridgehead to
02:08:58 communication with the bridgehead to tell them that you had found someone on the 16th floor who was now coming down no not that time did you having conserving decided to
02:09:10 did you having conserving decided to continue to search the sixteenth floor then ask for additional resources such as other VA where as or or firefighting equipment do not because again at this these decisions were made within 10 15
02:09:23 these decisions were made within 10 15 seconds of coming out and the priority then for us was if there was someone else in there they weren't gonna live longer than a minute or so in that smoke so the time
02:09:34 minute or so in that smoke so the time it would take to contact someone was time that we needed to get in and do a sweep around that Lobby if you at the time had thought that you had
02:09:45 time had thought that you had successfully located the person that you have gone up to originally reassure and then when he got there to rescue if you'd thought if you thought that what
02:09:56 you'd thought if you thought that what was the purpose of going back into the sixteenth floor lobby because although we just I'd assumed that that was a person you can never assume anything and you've got to make sure in case there is
02:10:08 you've got to make sure in case there is someone else in there right did you think that you needed to alert other other residents or rescue other residents on that floor well again it would be part of that to make sure that everyone try to make sure that people
02:10:20 everyone try to make sure that people were okay
02:10:21 were okay on that floor and you say we're okay what what do you mean well as I said earlier that if they were in a flat that wasn't being affected by smoke that it was probably safer for them to stay in that flat rather than get brought out
02:10:34 that flat rather than get brought out through very dangerous smoke and then taken down 16 floors right having seen the smoke on the city in the sixteenth floor lobby an experienced if
02:10:46 sixteenth floor lobby an experienced if yourself floor to ceiling did you have any thoughts about where that smoke was coming from and not oh I mean I could hazard a guess that he might have come up through the for the lift shaft
02:10:59 up through the for the lift shaft through wind shafts but at that time I didn't try to analyze it if you go to
02:11:10 didn't try to analyze it if you go to page seven of your statement you say about a quarter of the way down that page at this point I was concerned they
02:11:23 page at this point I was concerned they say I could think of no reason that there could be fire on the 4th 5th 6th and 16th floor except possibly for an arsonist which made the situation
02:11:34 arsonist which made the situation considerably more serious than I had previously believed it to be which was a fire in one flat which may have jumped a few floors but was still mostly contained you say I was concerned what
02:11:53 contained you say I was concerned what did you have any thoughts about about whether the fire was was spreading further up the building obviously that was a possibility there there were other
02:12:05 was a possibility there there were other possibilities that it could have been like I just said it could be an arsonist the origination of the fire could have been on the 16th floor and something drops out a 16th floor and called the fourth floor light so there are other
02:12:16 fourth floor light so there are other possibilities and fire travel as well these were possibilities but they were all very unlikely possibilities did you have any thoughts at that moment about whether there was a
02:12:30 at that moment about whether there was a need for full or phased evacuation of the whole building not myself for that time now yourself I was too busy doing logs dead right you know were there anybody else did I wouldn't know that
02:12:42 anybody else did I wouldn't know that did you have any thoughts of get to yourself even about whether continuing to tell people to stay put in their flats was a safe thing to do not at that point I was busy with what was in front of me when you say that you'd believed
02:13:00 of me when you say that you'd believed that the fire was mostly contained previously believed that it was mostly that was still mostly contained did you now think that the fire was not contained what you mean by mostly
02:13:13 contained what you mean by mostly contained well in your statement you say the point of highlighted you say that the fact that there could be far on the
02:13:25 the fact that there could be far on the 4th 5th 6th and 16th floors that made the situation considerably more serious than I previously believed it to be which was a fire in one flat which may
02:13:36 which was a fire in one flat which may have jumped a few floors but was still mostly contained my question is did you now think that the fire was not still mostly contained as I said there were
02:13:47 mostly contained as I said there were possibilities there were ways in way that smoke could have traveled without fire travel so smoke could have come up from the 6 up by the lift shaft in which
02:14:00 from the 6 up by the lift shaft in which case the fire hadn't traveled it have been the smoke that traveled right so at that point there I wasn't sure that fire had traveled
02:14:19 now in the middle of page seven you say
02:14:27 we disciplines the middle of a page but five lines up from the end of that big first paragraph we decided you say to finish searching the sixteenth floor but by now I was definitely aware this was a
02:14:39 by now I was definitely aware this was a very unusual incident we completed the right-hand wall search stopping each time we got to a door and hitting and kicking it and shouting out we received no reply at any door and none of the
02:14:51 no reply at any door and none of the other doors were opened so after waiting - approximately 20 seconds at each door we moved on a short while later we were back at the lobby doors and we went back up into out into the stairwell to check
02:15:02 up into out into the stairwell to check our air gauges now do you remember whether well when you say none of the other doors were open is that a
02:15:13 other doors were open is that a reference back to the first door you came to which was open yes and if you get back to the bottom of page six of your statement this is where you say we recommenced a right hand wall search the first door we came to was open do you
02:15:27 first door we came to was open do you remember which door to which flap that was in relation to the lifts for example it was the door to the flat directly above the five flat and fourth floor I
02:15:39 above the five flat and fourth floor I see so that would be flat 136 with it I don't know what the numbers were okay and you say that door was open do you know why it was open I don't know why after that how far open was it I can't
02:15:51 after that how far open was it I can't remember if it was just remember it's fully open or partially open I just remember as I got to it and it's open always not
02:16:04 always not not busy not locked but was it's propped open door standing open it there was a gap open I come it was definitely a gap there whether it was fully open or it was a half open I can't remember it wasn't Paul too so there was a small gap
02:16:17 wasn't Paul too so there was a small gap it was pretty much open right did you have any thoughts about what that meant in terms of whether the door closer was working properly or not well yeah was
02:16:29 working properly or not well yeah was open here so there was no door closed upon it yeah did you write you said it wasn't a door closer on well the door the foot door was open like I say it
02:16:40 the foot door was open like I say it wasn't pulled tuned so it was on the latch or ever it was open right and just just to complete this point was it did you see it propped open or there's just standing naturally I couldn't say it because we're in zero visibility smoke
02:16:52 because we're in zero visibility smoke it's all done by touch so I felt it with my pen so whether it was half open and then when as I've hit it with my hand is open fully I don't know I thought the door was open right you say in the
02:17:06 door was open right you say in the middle of page 7 as I've just shown you that you hit and kicked each door as you got to it and shout it out did anybody answer no not that
02:17:21 how much noise do you think you were actually making I was kicking him with my steel toe cap boots so right it's loud now there were in fact occupants in
02:17:32 loud now there were in fact occupants in flat 133 on that floor unfortunately there's and and fortunately they did escape sometime later in the night in fact we have them
02:17:43 later in the night in fact we have them at 3:47 escaping is there any reason you can think of why they they might not have heard you whether they were sleep
02:17:54 have heard you whether they were sleep or they just didn't hear me I don't know okay and when you shouted out what were you shouting do you remember um hello is anyone in there I'm gonna get when you
02:18:06 anyone in there I'm gonna get when you speak through a mask it's it's very muffled so it would have been more the kicking of the door and then you would hope someone would I've come to the door and speak to you from the other side or
02:18:17 and speak to you from the other side or quickly open the door and you can slip in and speak to when you were hitting the door was it I mean was it a polite knock or was it up now just kicking a so you should look at it might not wake you
02:18:29 you should look at it might not wake you up but if you're awake you shouldn't hear that in the next paragraph on page 7 you you say um having described you they were low on air and got to get back
02:18:41 they were low on air and got to get back down 16 floors you say we believed we have successfully helped the mailer was trapped on the 16th floor we decided to get back to the bridgehead um that belief you say well you seem to indicate
02:18:54 belief you say well you seem to indicate which one shared with crew manager Stern is that your belief was that both of your beliefs do you know I cannot care for my own beliefs I advise yeah it's my belief did you have any discussion with
02:19:05 belief did you have any discussion with crew manager Stern about the success of helping the male who was trapped no did you or he tried to tell the bridge head that you had rescued the trap man yes who was that we both did I switched on
02:19:17 who was that we both did I switched on my radio he tried on his Bari set he tried on his handheld and tried on my handheld that after we'd completely that's search a major concern
02:19:29 completely that's search a major concern now was getting that information down to the Pritchard you say you tried did you succeed no right how many times did you try a couple two three yeah right so you on your handheld I was on my handheld I
02:19:40 on your handheld I was on my handheld I switched that on at that point and then I was trying to talk through the be a set and Jamel was using his bearing and his handheld but is there a reason why you kept it off and then you switched
02:19:51 you kept it off and then you switched only switched it on at that stage because at that point I wanted to try and make contact with the bridgehead to combine my concern okay at that point when you were trying to
02:20:02 at that point when you were trying to make contact with the bridgehead do you know where the man you refer to as Sam was no I believe there was no one up there by the time one came up right and what about firefighter burn I believe I
02:20:14 what about firefighter burn I believe I was what were the conditions back out in the stairwell when you've got left the sixth grade or so clear yeah and then you say in the fifth line
02:20:26 yeah and then you say in the fifth line down from the top of that paragraph we decided to hurry back down the stairs to get the message back to the bridgehead as quickly as possible I don't remember seeing anyone else on the way down but the visibility was
02:20:39 the way down but the visibility was still good the lights were still on and they were still relatively little smoke in the stairwell did you encounter anybody else on the way down I don't
02:20:50 anybody else on the way down I don't remember seeing anybody down do you ever sing firefighter a burn for it as I've never seen and you've got one writer did you hear anybody on the way down I might come in or contemporaneous notes
02:21:04 might come in or contemporaneous notes right here just ask you to go to those on the second page you
02:21:20 say the top
02:21:28 after the reference to withdrawing from the flat this is half way down that page at that point we were getting low on air so started our way down pointing people
02:21:43 something in the right direction was not leaving of leaders yeah pointing people leaving in the right direction and keeping them calm now it
02:21:55 direction and keeping them calm now it looks but could you just explain that according to that note you were discussing matters with people on the way down was that what you were doing I
02:22:09 way down was that what you were doing I don't remember that now I may have confused that in my notes there with when we were going up I remember doing it going up I don't remember seeing anyone coming down right so looking back
02:22:24 anyone coming down right so looking back on it is the record you made within hours of the event not accurate but your recollection now more accurate Oh probably they are more active than they
02:22:36 probably they are more active than they are now but again those notes were made 12 15 hours after into a fire so I was extremely tired then as well so I couldn't tell you which is the more
02:22:48 couldn't tell you which is the more likely right okay
02:22:59 you say in your statement coming back to it in the sixth line down from that start of that paragraph we decided to hurry back down the stairs if you were
02:23:13 hurry back down the stairs if you were if you were hurrying do you remember whether in your hurry you did speak to anybody or whether because you were hurrying you didn't as a sir wouldn't necessary because we were
02:23:24 a sir wouldn't necessary because we were hiring but I don't remember right I remember we're trying to get down as quickly as possible to pass our information on but were your whistles going nothing right now as you as you
02:23:41 going nothing right now as you as you got down to the bridgehead as you say at the top of page eight you say you went up to watch manager O'Keefe just look at that you say when I got down to the
02:23:52 that you say when I got down to the bridgehead which was still on the mezzanine floor in the atrium I shut down my BA took back my tally and went up to watch manager a Keith and you say I was exhausted at this point as I'd be
02:24:05 I was exhausted at this point as I'd be working extremely hard for the 20 minutes or so that I've been in the tower and was breathing heavily and extremely hot and then you say this I stood and told watch manager a key face-to-face what I had seen that there
02:24:17 face-to-face what I had seen that there was thick black smoke on the 6th and 16th walls that there was heat on the 16th or twelfth floors up from the fire flat and that in my opinion we had a very serious incident on our hands
02:24:34 you don't say that in your statement you told him that you told him anything about your meeting with the man you thought was Sam I wouldn't have told him about a meeting Sam I would have told
02:24:46 about a meeting Sam I would have told him about risking one person out of smoke what can I ask you about that do you remember telling watch military O'Keefe about the rescue on the 16th
02:24:57 O'Keefe about the rescue on the 16th floor I wouldn't I don't specifically remember any of the debrief but I would have told him yeah yeah I would have told him exactly what we've done where we've been including the sixth what
02:25:08 we've been including the sixth what we've done under 16 what we'd seen on the 16th
02:25:12 the 16th what would search under 16 and rescuing one person did you do you remember telling him that you had rescued the man who was trapped on the 16th no I would
02:25:23 who was trapped on the 16th no I would have just told him with Richard one person I wouldn't have told him we'd rescued the men on the 16th I told him we had rescued one person at 16 did you tell watch manager O'Keefe that
02:25:34 did you tell watch manager O'Keefe that the mission to rescue as it had become a trap a trap mail on the 16th floor was successful no because again it would just be a debrief of what I'd done or
02:25:45 just be a debrief of what I'd done or what we had done the actual again I was only making an assumption that we had rescued there so I wouldn't pass my assumption on that was just an assumption that I've made myself there
02:25:57 assumption that I've made myself there was no effect in that assumption so do you remember where the crew manager Stern gave watch manager Keith a debrief as well I don't remember that man okay
02:26:09 as well I don't remember that man okay you don't remember him doing it I remember him I sat down and going to watch man Akif face to face whether he gave a similar debrief or not I don't know you don't know so you'd only one
02:26:21 know you don't know so you'd only one way or the other no okay do you know whether watch manager O'Keefe redeployed a group a pair of BA wearers back to the
02:26:33 a group a pair of BA wearers back to the 16th floor after your debrief nah Donna
02:26:38 did you tell watch manager O'Keefe that you encountered residents when you were coming down No did you tell watch manager O'Keefe that
02:26:51 did you tell watch manager O'Keefe that there were residents you encountered on your way up no just assuming they would all come past they'd have had to have gone past the bridgehead to get out the building though that's a squeeze past him in fact
02:27:02 though that's a squeeze past him in fact to get out of the building right when you got down to the bridgehead can you describe for us how the bridgehead was was operating I can't remember it was chaotic at that point so
02:27:15 remember it was chaotic at that point so yeah I was focused on telling WatchMojo Keith my debrief and little hours really
02:27:33 and do you remember who was on the bridgehead apart from watch manager O'Keefe I don't know okay do you remember any impression of how many firefighters there were there at that
02:27:44 firefighters there were there at that point I mean again I was go I think mean Jamar stoma but getting close to heat stress as well so it was we were tired and okay look forgive the next question
02:27:57 and okay look forgive the next question or two deep do you have any recollection of seeing any recording of fire survival guidance information and average height Naruto do you remember seeing anyone writing on the wall okay
02:28:09 writing on the wall okay we've got your telemetry data showing your end of where time as oh one 38:35 that would be when you actually took the mask off yeah
02:28:20 mask off yeah does that sound about right to you yes
02:28:37 are you familiar with the symptoms of metabolic heat stress yes have you experienced those symptoms before I have yes from your experience
02:28:48 before I have yes from your experience of those symptoms do you remember whether you paddle thought you had those symptoms at the moment you were debriefing too much manager okay I think we were close to it
02:28:59 manager okay I think we were close to it I know my limits as a say I've had it before and I've I know my limits wind slowed down and we were getting close to it but we weren't I wasn't feeling the effects of heat
02:29:10 I wasn't feeling the effects of heat stress
02:29:11 stress I knew moved close to mr. Hipple thank you very much I've got no further questions for you I just want to say thank you very much for coming to the enquiry and helping us with our
02:29:22 enquiry and helping us with our investigations we've been extremely helpful thank you yeah well I'll add my thanks to that this table it's really helpful to us to hear about your personal experiences within the tower helps us to piece the picture together
02:29:33 helps us to piece the picture together so we're very grateful to you for come before you leave can I just check mr. mee you don't need a little time to check there are no further questions no no good will in that case thank you
02:29:44 no no good will in that case thank you very much you're free to go examination thank you
02:29:49 thank you near the ultra
02:29:52 no they're mr. Milind yes mr. chair our next witnesses crew managers Stern yes and if he can be called as soon as possible that would be excellent if we
02:30:04 possible that would be excellent if we can move seamlessly into that I mean your hands as to whether we need a break or not we don't need a break unless there's going to be a little delay in getting him down to the angle that I think five minutes might help actually
02:30:16 think five minutes might help actually if we could then chain more well well let's start him at five past twelve very good thank you very much
02:30:31 you
02:35:51 I think mr. stern is now ready so we'll carry on Sharia Thank You mr. chairman so I now called cream energy Jamal Stern
02:36:34 but miss mr. stern before you're sworn and I say sorry missus our show can I just make this point before your song can I apologize to you that we have
02:36:45 can I apologize to you that we have provided a Quran without a cover on it and I did not realize that and I'm sorry about that in those circumstances would you be prepared to affirm very good so I
02:36:56 you be prepared to affirm very good so I think taking affirmation can be put in and said oh you're quite right to explain you all content to affirm that'll be perfect thank you very much
02:37:06 [Music] Kisame
02:37:23 thank you very much sit down and make yourself comfortable [Music]
02:37:29 [Music] yes mr. winner mr. stone first of all could you please give the Inquirer your full name
02:37:35 full name Jamal Starr and can I say by way of preliminary thank you very much to you for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations it's extremely helpful and we're very
02:37:47 extremely helpful and we're very grateful to you I say this to all witnesses my questions are intended to be short and simple sometimes they aren't if they're not or if you don't understand a question where you want it
02:37:59 understand a question where you want it repeated please just say and I'll repeat the question or I'll put it in a different way if you need a break at any time any time just indicate and we can take the break okay can I ask you first
02:38:11 take the break okay can I ask you first to take your statement which will be in the little blue file in front of you and also on the screen on the desk - you're right which you're looking at it's met triple zero 1 2 4 8 3 and I think you've
02:38:26 triple zero 1 2 4 8 3 and I think you've got a number of exhibits to that statement as well
02:38:34 if the statement is dated the 14th of February 2018 is is there a have you read it recently yes I have can you confirm that its contents are true yes
02:38:45 confirm that its contents are true yes there are and have you discussed your statement or the evidence that you would be giving to the inquiry with anybody before coming here today okay can I just ask you to move the microphone just a
02:38:56 ask you to move the microphone just a little bit closer to your bed it down so that we can hear you now I can I just start with some questions about your position in the other FB you joined the
02:39:08 position in the other FB you joined the lfb in 2005 yes correct and I think you've been an active firefighter since then it's so happy I'm okay and you came to Kensington a fire station when you were promoted to crew
02:39:19 station when you were promoted to crew manager that's correct was that in 2017 I believe it was in 2016 right okay and prior to that you
02:39:30 2016 right okay and prior to that you were in Soho I was here okay and as at the night of the 14th of June 2017 the night of the Grenville tower fire you were a crew manager I was yes and that remains your rank does it no as of May
02:39:43 remains your rank does it no as of May of this year I've been promoted to the role of watch manager oh right congratulations thank you and watch manager we're at Fulham that full of women fire station and which watch is
02:39:54 women fire station and which watch is that red watch that watch thank you on page five of your statement you say that
02:40:07 page five of your statement you say that you attended the Shepherd's pour fire well let me be I think I may jump the gun a bit let me just ask you in the third line that
02:40:18 third line that Paige you say you've been to high-rise fires through my career many times a recent one was a shepherd's bush where it traveled a few floors so I was there
02:40:31 it traveled a few floors so I was there and we stopped that pretty quick is that the Shepherds caught fire that's it yep yeah and what was your role at that incident back were manager at what stage
02:40:44 incident back were manager at what stage in the incident did you arrive on that Pacific incident I was standing by pattinson fire station so from memory I believe we got mobilized at make pumped
02:40:55 believe we got mobilized at make pumped six so it would have been during the slight progression of the incident that I were their attendant right which station were you attached to it there's at that time at Paddington Europe
02:41:06 at that time at Paddington Europe Paddington right and did your experience of what happened to Shepherd's court make you think differently about how a fire in a high-rise building might behave no right at page 29 of your
02:41:20 behave no right at page 29 of your statement I'm sorry to jump around sir it's the nature of the statement but if you look at the third paragraph on that page you say with the failure of
02:41:37 page you say with the failure of compartment ation in a high-rise block of flats when the fire does spread we have the resources to stop it like the Shepherd bushfire earlier in the year then you go on to say it might spread to
02:41:49 then you go on to say it might spread to the next floor maybe catch a curtain alight put that out eventually go to the next floor if it does go up two or three more floors you'll eventually get crews up there quick enough to put it out and it will stop so would it to describe
02:42:02 it will stop so would it to describe your evidence be fair to say that with afar like Shepherds caught essentially the crews chased the fire until they get above it and put it out essentially yes
02:42:14 okay did you know what the cause of up hoods fire spread was at Shepherds called Narconon I assume he went through open windows or windows felled and
02:42:26 open windows or windows felled and eventually broke into those compartments those compartments did their job the fire didn't spread as quickly as they did at groennfell so crews were able to get in with a line of hose and put that
02:42:37 get in with a line of hose and put that fire out as it spread did you ever learn that combustible materials on the facade of the building might have contributed to the fire spread that Shepherd's Court no have you ever been trained on the
02:42:51 no have you ever been trained on the fire spread through combustible materials on a facade no
02:43:02 does your training cover what's been called the stay-put policy I'm aware of the staple guidance given yes what do you understand it to mean
02:43:13 you understand it to mean stay put guidance is given via control so if the caller phones up in States there attract by nature of wire the control officer will give them advice depending upon the situation to stay
02:43:25 depending upon the situation to stay where they are and will come and rescue them if you look at the bottom of page 14 of your statement can you explain there what the state of policy is and just exploring your last
02:43:38 policy is and just exploring your last answer and the statement together and you say in the last paragraph on page 14 in the second sentence someone rings up and they're trapped by smoke or flame or fire they're tasked to stay put in a
02:43:51 fire they're tasked to stay put in a safe place for us to come and rescue them so when you say they're trapped can you just explain what you mean they're a
02:44:03 you just explain what you mean they're a little trapped by a vague word is if they if they feel unfit to run through smoke or they feel a fear of fire or they could be the effects of fire or smoke their control of control officer
02:44:15 smoke their control of control officer will give them that advice to stay where they are
02:44:22 right
02:44:25 if a person is trapped do you understand that it means that they've got no choice but to stay put yeah that term trapped yes I don't understand that in that statement I've
02:44:37 understand that in that statement I've used it quite vaguely though right now coming to your arrival at Grenville
02:44:49 coming to your arrival at Grenville tower on the night we have you and firefighter Hipple who's here this morning arriving at Granville Tower at a 108 33 that was your status three time
02:45:02 108 33 that was your status three time do you remember roughly but whether that's right or not oh yeah I'm assuming that would be right okay and you say in your statement that you parked at a spot that you show on exhibit Jas - can we just have a look at
02:45:16 exhibit Jas - can we just have a look at that just to get that absolutely clear
02:45:22 Jas -
02:45:27 is M et triple zero one six eight nine zero there it is and you have marked G 3
02:45:46 zero there it is and you have marked G 3 3 1 I think that is yeah there so you parked on the right-hand side of Grenfell Road just before the left hand then leading to the covered walkway I
02:45:58 then leading to the covered walkway I believe side to Bowl so I think our vehicle was moved at some stage in their life but that's where I remember us getting up right did you have any sight of the fire from there no did you know
02:46:11 of the fire from there no did you know which floor and flap the fire was on I believe on the tip sheet that we received was the fire on the fourth wall and what do you dismounted the appliance
02:46:22 and what do you dismounted the appliance did you then walk towards the building like this yes did you get any view of the fire from there yes I believe after we walk on that little walk quite in the
02:46:33 we walk on that little walk quite in the mezzanine level I looked up let's see some smoke Oh fire coming up a window right okay that's the mezzanine level of the building no no before I enter the
02:46:45 the building no no before I enter the building looking up I did say fire ok and where did you see the fire coming out a window on the east side of the building right and at that stage could you describe the fire okay it just
02:46:57 could you describe the fire okay it just look like a small fire right was where the flames coming out of the window at that stage it seemed to be so yeah right do you think that the window was still intact at that stage or I couldn't tell
02:47:09 intact at that stage or I couldn't tell whether the window was open sorry right at that stage could you see any burning items falling off the building now right now in you describe approaching the
02:47:21 now in you describe approaching the entrance to the tower and this is page four of your statement
02:47:35 three quarters of the way down do you member who you were with at that stage flat by HIPAA like anybody else and I can remember now what do you remember what the rest of your crew was
02:47:46 remember what the rest of your crew was doing I'm not too sure okay and in the last paragraph of that page
02:47:57 last paragraph of that page can't you say as I approach the entrance you see you say I went in under like a mezzanine where the estate linked to Lancaster West Estate approached the
02:48:08 Lancaster West Estate approached the entrance looked up and saw light gray smoke coming out from what looked like vents from the building and as I look to the right I could see fire coming out what was reported on the fourth floor
02:48:20 what was reported on the fourth floor now I just want to explore this vents with you if I can which side of the building with these vents on from your recollection I above the entrance in
02:48:33 recollection I above the entrance in terracotta I'm going to ask you to look at a picture could the witness please be shown BL a quadruple zero four five three one
02:48:53 now this I should tell you is a photograph taken by one of the inquiries experts dr. Barbara Lane and she took it on her visit during November 2017 so
02:49:05 on her visit during November 2017 so this is after the fire looking at the photograph we've got the green covering of the entrance main entrance to the
02:49:17 of the entrance main entrance to the tower on the south side do you see from that picture anything which could prompt a recollectionist to the vents you've described oh yes if those are the only events on the front and those would have
02:49:28 events on the front and those would have been the vents that I saw right and those of your events you saw today yeah in relation to the door do you think
02:49:39 in relation to the door do you think those were the vents you saw the smoke coming out of my memory I seem to think they're a bit lower than that but if those are the only vents on the front of it on the front of that entrance
02:49:50 it on the front of that entrance building that those are the vents I saw okay and there may be a better picture to look at let's look at three five six if we can which is a photograph taken by
02:50:01 if we can which is a photograph taken by Studio architects during the refurbishment we've got a slightly more distant photograph of the south face of
02:50:15 distant photograph of the south face of the tower with the entrance there with the green and red and then above that with the two
02:50:26 we've been flanked by two pieces of I'm not sure what board of some kind you've got a large white extractor does that
02:50:37 got a large white extractor does that help you recall the location of the vents you saw yes okay seems to be the only vents and the front Brett building right now in your statement you say page
02:50:54 five in the second paragraph the vents are elevated but not on the ground floor as you enter the front of Grantville
02:51:06 as you enter the front of Grantville tower there's like a big glass entrance so they are elevated there maybe about three meters up roughly give or take they aren't on the floor looking at
02:51:17 they aren't on the floor looking at looking at that and having now looked at the photograph can we be clear that the photograph is in accordance with your recollection or yes so obviously a little bit higher than four meters but
02:51:29 little bit higher than four meters but yes okay now in terms of the smoke do you remember the smoke coming out I just like gray smoke coming out of events was
02:51:43 like gray smoke coming out of events was it coming out under force or was it not that I can recall was it going in a particular direction it was coming out and either dissipating in the air or traveling not back up the building I can't quite remember but I
02:51:56 building I can't quite remember but I just visually remember smoke coming out of those vents right
02:52:03 did you hear a noise above the noise of the pumps yeah my memory yeah I believe I heard some kind of mechanical noise or
02:52:15 I heard some kind of mechanical noise or vents a fan of some sort coming out that building and if you go to the bottom of
02:52:26 building and if you go to the bottom of page four we can explore that a bit more you say this is five lines is up from the bottom of the page you could hear
02:52:39 the bottom of the page you could hear the vents working it was like a Fanning noise quite loud you could hear them you could see a bit of gray smoke coming out nothing thick nothing black just a bit of smoke but just in terms of hearing
02:52:50 of smoke but just in terms of hearing the Fanning noise quite loud you're clear are you in your recollection that you could hear the Fanning yes from my recollection okay and that was even above the noise of the pumps yes
02:53:04 and can you decide sounds a strange question can you describe the noise for us like the air-conditioning sound or the sound of that band there something
02:53:15 the sound of that band there something similar to that right okay okay
02:53:20 could you hear a motor running I can remember sorry okay
02:53:27 did the fact that you could hear the Fanning in the way you've described it and see the smoke coming out give you any cause for concern no I assumed that the building had some kind of our
02:53:38 the building had some kind of our engineering system that was helping dr. Bing with him on page five of your statement you you say in the first paragraph two lines up from the end the
02:53:53 paragraph two lines up from the end the only thing that was a bit out of the ordinary was the smoke coming out of the vents but at that time hindsight he didn't really I didn't pick up up on it
02:54:07 didn't really I didn't pick up up on it what why do you say that the smoke coming out of the vents was a bit out of the ordinary simply because I now know what happened and that's looking about that's with hindsight of what happened that evening
02:54:20 hindsight of what happened that evening okay
02:54:31 and
02:54:38 do you just in terms of the slope do you remember whether the snow kind of plume or a particular shape to it or coming out events yes no okay
02:54:56 you're outside the entrance to the tower do you remember who else with us that was outside the entrance I got when I got there I can't remember right did you see Mike Darden no did you speak
02:55:09 did you see Mike Darden no did you speak to anybody before going into the tower not that I recall who was giving you instructions at that time that walking
02:55:20 instructions at that time that walking into the tower other women no one Brian Oh watch my jokey would have gone to the IC and naturally as a Serbian PA whereas we were then made our way to the Bridget
02:55:35 what were the conditions like in the lobby when you went in you remember clear do you remember coming into the
02:55:46 clear do you remember coming into the lobby with any other firefighters my hip firefighter Hipple anybody else know what about there Hanlon and Barton from Hammersmith no okay
02:56:07 [Music]
02:56:15 now you then I think you say that you took the stairs to the that the second floor
02:56:21 floor yes did you try the lift no is there any reason why I didn't try the lift was on the second floor there was a door that was ajar going up the stairs towards the mezzanine level the balcony so it will
02:56:35 mezzanine level the balcony so it will just be easier to take this right do you remember what the conditions were like on this way up clear click did you pass anybody not a couple you don't remember
02:56:47 anybody not a couple you don't remember residents coming down at that time okay now you say in your statement page six first part excuse me first paragraph but
02:57:00 when you got up to the bridge head you were met by crew manager secret who was in charge see that you see that yes now
02:57:11 in charge see that you see that yes now he in his witness statement refers to you and Richard HIPAA looking spooked and concerned were you know right
02:57:29 do you remember seeing any other firefighters when you got to the bridgehead fire fight this thing open was in charge of the venture control boards right and that's all looking at
02:57:40 boards right and that's all looking at that time I couldn't do you remember seeing any be a wearers when you got to the bridgehead no on your journey from the lobby to the bridgehead where you
02:57:51 the lobby to the bridgehead where you were always with Richard Hipple yes now in your witness statement in this on page six in the third and fourth
02:58:03 page six in the third and fourth paragraphs you say and I'll summarize it that you are you asked crew manager secret to commit you and Richard Hipple to act as backup to the crews who've
02:58:16 to act as backup to the crews who've gone into the fourth floor am i summarizing your evidence correctly yes you are you okay did you know how many crews have gone into the fourth floor there was two sets of two crews right do
02:58:29 there was two sets of two crews right do you know who they were at that stage no our memory here in Nash no not at that stage now no that moment
02:58:42 that stage now no that moment do you remember whether crew manager secret gave you any particular instructions he he went after Spade
02:58:54 instructions he he went after Spade errors and the motor secret was an emergency crew yeah did you know why that was is procedure I guess see one must bear in case anything went wrong with the first two crews yes
02:59:07 went wrong with the first two crews yes good standard practice you say you wanted to go in and act as a backup to the crews already there can you explain what specific role you want her to perform well there's apply as a high
02:59:18 perform well there's apply as a high right it's a high-rise building as a final fall going help assist with the two crews going in I know that you know dragging hose into that can be quite hard work so we could assist with that
02:59:29 hard work so we could assist with that also to preempt any smokers well if there's anything amiss on the floor we will be there ready to deal with that or you know progressively fail or through my experience Mike those
02:59:40 or through my experience Mike those travel up upwards as it would and it could affect the flat above so it was just reacting that really and the resources were there enough what the result for us to done MBA and go and
02:59:51 result for us to done MBA and go and help out would be better suited rather than sand buyers and emergency crew that's just my opinion right okay
03:00:04 did you yeah I see you knew that there was a second crew already backing up the first crew yes so you effectively wanted to be there as a third Chris do you
03:00:17 to be there as a third Chris do you remember you tell us you remember any officer in your statement paragraph three on page six that there was a message over the radio for a Mike Darden
03:00:28 message over the radio for a Mike Darden outside requesting permission to aim a covering jet into the window where the firewalls do you remember that I do remember yes which radio are you
03:00:39 remember yes which radio are you referring to whose radio handheld radio I had my handheld radio on when channel one do you remember the track what the
03:00:51 one do you remember the track what the traffic was like on your handheld radio at that time it was just Mike thousand and talking towards the bridgehead cover secret right it wasn't much traffic did
03:01:04 secret right it wasn't much traffic did you have radio contact with Mike Dowden sorry let me ask the questions that you different way did you have the ability at that stage to talk to Mike dad
03:01:15 at that stage to talk to Mike dad directly on your fire ground radio yes did you speak to Mike down directly on my radio
03:01:25 but did you speak to him at any stage no did you try to speak to him later no and we'll come back to that in your statement you say just below halfway
03:01:43 statement you say just below halfway down page six in the third paragraph on that page after the reference to aiming the jet into the fire flat on the fourth floor you say I'm assuming that the fire must have got worse as I could hear them
03:01:56 must have got worse as I could hear them saying the fire vented over the radio so first of all is that you are you describing there a conversation between Mike Darden and Chris secret but you'd
03:02:09 Mike Darden and Chris secret but you'd heard on the radio yes okay and when you say I'm assuming that the fire must have got worse was that your thought at the time or is that a thought you had when
03:02:20 time or is that a thought you had when you did your statement that was not at the time there will be neither reason why you would jet through the window unless it was venting or in-game worse right there was the acres inside as well
03:02:36 right there was the acres inside as well so there's obviously a reason why you want me to do that does does that mean that when a to your way of thinking whether fire vents things are getting worse not necessarily do you remember
03:02:51 worse not necessarily do you remember saying anybody saying by the Chris secret all Mike doubt and that the fire had vented just over the radio right so
03:03:02 had vented just over the radio right so if it wasn't necessarily a bad thing that he had vented why do you ask why do you assume that the fire must have got worse because he wants to put a jet through the window right it's not a you
03:03:16 through the window right it's not a you would you wouldn't put a jet into a compartment with the æther who's in that fire compartment so the fact that watch might have Dowden was requesting to do that he obviously wanted to put that
03:03:28 that he obviously wanted to put that fire out and it was spread in did you hear any discussion between Chris secret and Mike down and about putting the jet above or below the
03:03:39 about putting the jet above or below the window no right did you hear any other messages over the radio at that time no now if you go to
03:03:50 radio at that time no now if you go to page seven of your statement you say about eight lines down from the top in
03:04:01 about eight lines down from the top in the first paragraph there that watch manager Akif arrived and became oh I see of the bridgehead how soon after you'd
03:04:14 of the bridgehead how soon after you'd arrived at the bridgehead do you think that was a couple of minutes maybe oh right that's him yeah okay and did he take over the bridgehead did you
03:04:25 take over the bridgehead did you remember yes he did yeah do you remember whether there was a handover from Chris secret to watch manager a Keith I don't really sorry right you say that
03:04:40 I don't really sorry right you say that in the next sentence I asked watch manager Keith to commit me and firefighter Hipple to the fourth floor as no communications returned from the initial be a cruise
03:04:57 do you say no communications returned from the initial be a cruise how did you know that there was no communication but
03:05:09 know that there was no communication but between from the initial be a cruise and a secret was trying to get in contact with the initial PA crews to get their location in regards to my dad's request to project through the wind though he
03:05:22 to project through the wind though he couldn't get any confirmation back from them I was listening I was within hearing distance and nothing came back so that's how I knew that there was no communications coming back so did that
03:05:34 communications coming back so did that surprise you no not really was that berry sets not gray they could have been working hard they could have
03:05:45 have been working hard they could have been task orientated they maybe didn't hear the message so they were there in the fire compartments I'm assuming their priorities tomorrow okay is it in your experience at the time
03:05:57 is it in your experience at the time we're quite common for there to be unreliable communication between the bridgehead and BA whereas it depends where they are how far they are from the
03:06:09 where they are how far they are from the project to brings the hey happens right okay now you say in your statement that you asked watch manager I keep to commit you and firefighter Hipple as no
03:06:21 you and firefighter Hipple as no communications returned from the initial be a cruise is that right is it that is the reason you asked him to commit you because there had been no come back from the initial be a cruise at that time yes
03:06:35 the initial be a cruise at that time yes my memory there's more than one reason why we should be committed but possibly that time that's what I remember right do you know why you asked watch
03:06:47 right do you know why you asked watch manager O'Keefe to commit choose in circumstances where Chris secret had decided that he wasn't going to commit she would wanted to keep you in reserve as an emergency crew watch major key is a very experienced watch manager
03:07:00 a very experienced watch manager he would understand the reasons was and no disrespect to put a major secret but watch manager chief has a lot of experience so I explained my reasons to
03:07:11 experience so I explained my reasons to ask him and he agreed then he would understand where I was coming from and could just for our benefit what were the reasons why you thought it was right that you should be committed again at
03:07:22 that you should be committed again at that time now I heard that there was a venti to buy and they wanted to pay jet through the window so I can only assume until I got there that that fire was going to go up to the fifth floor they
03:07:35 going to go up to the fifth floor they may need some help the two crews that are into the fire that so there was more than one reason why we should be committed right so was your thinking at
03:07:47 committed right so was your thinking at the time that on what you knew even at that stage there was a risk that the farm might spread up above the fourth floor hey why is vented then yes yeah
03:07:59 floor hey why is vented then yes yeah right so even at that stage you thought there was at least a risk that compartment ation around the fourth
03:08:11 compartment ation around the fourth floor flat had failed my understanding yes right did you just did you share that thought with anybody I must have spoke to watch major key right do you remember doing that
03:08:24 right do you remember doing that I don't remember there's that conversation now watch manager O'Keefe came here to give evidence some days ago on the 6th of July and he he said that
03:08:36 on the 6th of July and he he said that he committed you and Richard Hipple initially as hose management say between the 3rd and the 4th floors do you remember that I don't remember that I remember being committed I don't
03:08:47 I remember being committed I don't remember there's that great he gave to be honest right if you thought that the fire had vented and that there was a risk that the compartment ation on the
03:08:58 risk that the compartment ation on the fourth floor had failed does that help with your recollection as to the brief that watch manager O'Keefe gave you no okay when he
03:09:13 manager O'Keefe gave you no okay when he did commit you what was it was your recollection as to what your task was to be gods the fourth-floor assess if they needed assistance and then eventually
03:09:24 needed assistance and then eventually got now we've got the telemetry data which I don't need to show you unless you want to see it but we'd have you and
03:09:35 you want to see it but we'd have you and Richard Hipple tallying out at about 117 so nine minutes or so after the crew had arrived
03:09:44 arrived status three at the incident ground is that about right there must be yes okay I mean that tallies with your recollection does it yes okay and did you go under air as soon as you left the bridgehead
03:09:55 bridgehead yes okay what equipment did you take with you leave a deferment engine camera with me so no firefighting equipment no I don't recall having it but I had
03:10:08 I don't recall having it but I had bought my equipment on the floor so I can't remember where Rob or I had it with me at the time I can't recall right and then on page seven in the second paragraph you you say we made our way up
03:10:20 paragraph you you say we made our way up the stairs to the fourth floor you you know want to describe that in some detail and what when you got to the fourth floor lobby what were the
03:10:31 fourth floor lobby what were the conditions like there no some smoke visible
03:10:43 and you remember remember seeing where the smoke was coming from from the fire was the remember whether we're the first to be a crews work that state they were
03:10:54 to be a crews work that state they were in the fire flap right was the door open or closed
03:10:57 or closed it was Acharya it was open job but because of the hoses because of the hose and can you describe the smoke in the lobby at that stab it was black smoke
03:11:10 lobby at that stab it was black smoke ceiling level the ceiling level yeah do you remember whether the smoke was being vented out mechanically at all no
03:11:22 being vented out mechanically at all no do you remember seeing smoke vents night on the fourth floor in the lobby no right do you remember hearing any mechanical venting noise no at that time
03:11:34 mechanical venting noise no at that time I had my BA set on so it was quite hard to okay
03:11:39 to okay now at the bottom of page 7 you say
03:11:50 30 seconds of us being in that Lobby 4th floor lobby before someone at the top came to tell us about the smoke on the fifth floor can I just ask you you say
03:12:12 fifth floor can I just ask you you say in your statement you can't remember who told you this was it a firefighter or a resident do you think in regard said who told you that there was smoke on the fifth floor I can't remember where do you say
03:12:24 I can't remember where do you say someone at the top what was at the top mean I think that's a typo from the police officer right the statement I'm not too sure right so this
03:12:35 statement I'm not too sure right so this isn't someone coming down from high in the building and no it would have been I'm assuming someone from the fifth floor okay you're assuming that you don't remember who it was I can't remember I really can't really you can't remember whether it was a firefighter or
03:12:47 remember whether it was a firefighter or a resident who told I can't remember where it was face to face over the radio just remember the information right now do you know where you were standing when you heard the information about smoke on
03:13:00 you heard the information about smoke on the fifth floor I was I oh I on the 4th or Lobby or on the staircase within that area okay now in your notes that you made immediately after the incident you
03:13:15 made immediately after the incident you and I'll show you this let me just show you that
03:13:20 you that [Music]
03:13:23 [Music] you're contemporaneous notes
03:13:28 and these are M et quadruple 0 with a 5-4 93 are there up on the screen on the first page you say
03:13:51 it's a third of the way down we got information that fire or smoke had now reached the fifth and sixth floor we
03:14:06 reached the fifth and sixth floor we were instructed to go to the fifth and sixth have helped escort any residents out just in terms of instructed to go to the fifth and sixth floor
03:14:18 the fifth and sixth floor on that evidence do you remember who instructed you to go to the fifth and sixth floor no when I wrote that statement I was
03:14:29 no when I wrote that statement I was extremely exhausted after a long nights work so I may have a bit of information not quite right to be honest okay I just remember being informed to the smoke
03:14:40 remember being informed to the smoke okay and you can't remember who by as you said no you say you go on to say and help escort any residents out again do you remember getting an instruction to
03:14:51 you remember getting an instruction to do that or it was that yeah I don't know but no one has struck to us to do anything with any residents it was just smoking the floor right now watch
03:15:02 smoking the floor right now watch manager O'Keefe has given evidence and for the trip for our transcript it's day six sorry six July day 18 at pages 35 to 38 not gonna show that to you mr. stone
03:15:14 38 not gonna show that to you mr. stone but he's given evidence that after you and firefighter Hipple had been committed to house management on the third and fourth floor you came down to the bridge head and told him about the reports of fire on the fifth floor do
03:15:27 reports of fire on the fifth floor do you remember doing that excuse me that definitely didn't happen I didn't go and not until I left the building I think I've got down to the pritchards right and you're clear about that in your arm
03:15:39 and you're clear about that in your arm station all right okay because he says he then asked you to go up and tell him more about what was going on yeah did
03:15:51 more about what was going on yeah did you when you got information that there was smoke on the fifth floor did you communicate with the bridge head that that was what you've been told what I did was I went to assess it first
03:16:04 what I did was I went to assess it first so I went up to the floor I checked do you how bad it was or if there was only smoke in that Lobby after
03:16:15 there was only smoke in that Lobby after my findings I with a radio that down to the pritchards okay let's look at that in a little bit more detail you say on page 8 at the top
03:16:31 more detail you say on page 8 at the top of the page 6 slides down from the top I got notified about smoke on the fifth floor I can't remember how I received this notification if it was just in firefighter Oh burn or a resident and then you say three lines up from the
03:16:46 then you say three lines up from the bottom of that paragraph we then informed the e Co through radio and we went upstairs that is myself a firefighter Hipple it looks from that but your recollection when you did the statement was that before you enter you
03:16:58 statement was that before you enter you did can actually succeed in communicating with the bridgehead I may have done yes okay but looking at it in your statement you're pretty clear about it you say we did we there whatever way
03:17:10 it you say we did we there whatever way that happened that really communicated with the Richards okay and would that have been on your Barry it would have been yes or they've been on the Barry to the edge trial officer right was it you
03:17:22 the edge trial officer right was it you out of the two of you you and Richard HIPPA Lee who was the person in charge of communicating with the bridge head yes it was me Yeah right and then you said go on to say in the
03:17:34 and then you said go on to say in the next paragraph on page eight on the fifth floor the lobby was clear what about the conditions on the stairs up to the fifth floor do you remember what they were like clear okay and then you
03:17:46 they were like clear okay and then you say in the second line on in that paragraph slight smoke coming from the door we made our way straight to the door in relation to the two above the
03:17:57 door in relation to the two above the fire flat on the fourth floor so that would be flat 26 if Bulova 60 all right that's the number yes right and can you describe the smoke that was coming out uh it was thick
03:18:10 that was coming out uh it was thick black smoke just slowly coming out the door black smoke yeah well yeah it was it was it was stayin in the door was it okay Richard Hipple said this morning that he was it was towards the white end
03:18:22 that he was it was towards the white end of the spectrum where I remember just the stains across there the lips of the door okay and did that tell you anything about how seriously conditions were
03:18:33 about how seriously conditions were within that flat on that floor it told me there was a lot of smoke would be a fire within that compartment in moving that flat right then you then go on to say I look through the letterbox and
03:18:45 say I look through the letterbox and looked into the flat on a scale of 6 or 7 probably a bit more than that I couldn't see the end of the corridor so it was pretty smoke logged the smoke coloration started to get darker on the fifth floor not as dark as the sick just
03:18:58 fifth floor not as dark as the sick just in terms of the flag you look through the letterbox you say yes and he couldn't see to the end of the corridor is that right yes did that concern you
03:19:10 is that right yes did that concern you it would what yes there's a possible either there was now fire in that flat did you knock on the door over the door well we checked the door the door was locked shut door was locked shut did you
03:19:22 locked shut door was locked shut did you shout or knock on door bang on the door to alert the possible residence in it um I don't remember banging on the door I just remember trying to open the door and it was locked shut and then my next
03:19:35 and it was locked shut and then my next call was to set up to go in and put a fire out and search the flat right did you okay and then you go on to say just
03:19:47 you okay and then you go on to say just after halfway down the same paragraph we radioed while we radioed down to someone to the e Co to organize that for us that's breaking in gear so do you
03:19:59 that's breaking in gear so do you remember
03:20:01 whoo-hoo radio down to the bridgehead I said you did did you get hold of them yes who was who did you speak to by police in Auburn it was a et Ossa okay
03:20:12 police in Auburn it was a et Ossa okay this is on my Barry sir that was no BioSense channel 6 channel 6 as far as you were concerned at that stage your Barry set was giving you efficient communication with aliens
03:20:23 efficient communication with aliens working all that time yes okay and what did you say - Alex decent children and we needed we had I remember having the
03:20:36 we needed we had I remember having the hose so I needed some equipment brought up so we can make entry right you say you remember having a hose I thought you said earlier you've gone out without any yeah this is when my memory starts to play with me I remember on that we line
03:20:49 play with me I remember on that we line that we've brought some hose ready to go into that flat but we didn't have a branch and we didn't have breaking in equipment so I radio down to get the equipment I needed to make entry into
03:21:00 equipment I needed to make entry into that flat did survival picks up that hose from the bridge a door between the preacher than the fifth floor or I have it with me I sorry I can't remember why would you have a hose but no branch
03:21:12 would you have a hose but no branch again I don't know maybe you bought it puts it down I'm not too sure either way the side I had a tick and I had a hose of me and that's what we began to do on the floor right okay did you think at
03:21:27 the floor right okay did you think at the time about trying to get the residents of the flat out given the what you'd seen inside the flat well gain entry to it so I'm assuming I'm checking that front door we would have made some
03:21:38 that front door we would have made some noise on the front door trying to gain entry to it so I couldn't do nothing with the door what about the residents on the in the flats the other flats in other flats at that time though the
03:21:51 other flats at that time though the lobby was still clear so I di we're gonna fall that file with the spread to those other flats I just bought it's directly above the fire flat on the fourth floor and it was
03:22:03 fire flat on the fourth floor and it was just affecting that flat
03:22:06 and do you remember whether there were any other firefighters on that floor at that time I died I remember seeing far my personal burn and to fight back vo
03:22:18 my personal burn and to fight back vo right during those times okay on page eight you so I let me pick this up at
03:22:33 eight you so I let me pick this up at the bottom of page 7 you say firefighter Padilla firefighter Oh burn were in the stairwell at the time I believe helping
03:22:44 stairwell at the time I believe helping with equipment to be brought up but they were not in VA whereabouts in in the stairwell did you encounter them at various points between the bridgehead
03:22:55 various points between the bridgehead and that fifth floor right and then you say at the top of page nine
03:23:13 while you were waiting with Richard Hipple for the equipment you say someone again I can't remember said there was a large smoke reported on the 6th floor so
03:23:27 large smoke reported on the 6th floor so you were on the fifth floor with Richard Hipple you're waiting for equipment having radio down do you remember who and you say you can't remember that was it a firefighter who told you that there was smoke on the 6th floor I can't I
03:23:38 was smoke on the 6th floor I can't I can't I can't remember we have had evidence from firefighter air burn that he was going up the building checking the floors do you have a recollection that of him telling you that there was
03:23:52 that of him telling you that there was smoke on the 6th floor it's a good possibility but I can't remember it's not a guarantee defense no and you then
03:24:03 not a guarantee defense no and you then say and full lines down from the top of page 9 I informed hicieron to control officer again and made our way to the 6th to have a look again how did you
03:24:14 6th to have a look again how did you make that communication my very successfully successfully ok no difficulties at that stage now right and then you could describe the stairwell between the 5th and the 6th at that
03:24:27 between the 5th and the 6th at that stage who else was with you on your journey to the 6th floor I believe by him oh I assumed by HIPAA with me anybody else
03:24:38 anybody else another Chronicle right and then you go into this you say the sixth floor lobby this is three lines up from the end of the first second nice based paragraph on
03:24:49 the first second nice based paragraph on page nine was quite heavily smoke logged it was low enough for me to make a safe approach to the flatness may play I was probably just above something five foot seven so I can see it was quite thick
03:25:00 seven so I can see it was quite thick smoke
03:25:07 did that concern you yes and did you communicate your concern
03:25:18 yes and did you communicate your concern to anybody today it's the easier to the project so and again who was that Alex it wouldn't yeah with a confrontation of Alice this Nolan okay
03:25:37 and again at that stage well can you remember what the message was you gave him again smoke comfortable Byron sixth floor and then he did a crow with papaya
03:25:50 floor and then he did a crow with papaya media and breaking in gear two people up to the sick of all right
03:26:05 just going back a little just before you leave to go to the 6th floor and I'm sorry to do this to get back to page 8 of your statement at the end of the second main paragraph on that page you
03:26:16 second main paragraph on that page you say when it comes to time frames I can't we then went back into the staircase I don't know why just waiting in the staircase the daughter the lobby was opened as think there was someone
03:26:27 opened as think there was someone standing in between the lobby and the staircase area just trying to fight our way through that a little what is your what are you recalling there I believe
03:26:40 what are you recalling there I believe after I am radio down the conditions of the 6th floor I went back down to the fifth rule a lighting crews or anyone to bring up some equipment for us to deal
03:26:52 bring up some equipment for us to deal with incident I see so that's after that's the second visit of the fifth floor after you've been to the sixth it must have been yes I see ok we'll we'll come back to that so then going back to page nine you when we get to the sixth
03:27:07 page nine you when we get to the sixth floor and you say it was heavily smoke logged quite heavy smoke logged which we've just seen and in the the
03:27:31 third paragraphs
03:27:41 well let me ask it without reference to your statement you say yeah you you think the Kafar might have jumped is that right I'm assuming the fire were the spread
03:27:52 I'm assuming the fire were the spread yeah yeah sorry I'm just trying to do this without having found the spot in the or statement but I've got it page 9 first sentence of the second paragraph my initial thoughts were maybe
03:28:03 paragraph my initial thoughts were maybe the fire had jumped maybe there was a window opened and it had actually breached into the sixth floor flat did you think about how the fire could have jumped hey again really for an open
03:28:15 jumped hey again really for an open window did you think did you have any thoughts at the time about the possibility of external fire spread why would have to spread externally up through the an open window the reason
03:28:28 through the an open window the reason why I had an initial fall is we've just been on the fourth floor the lobby wasn't smoke logs spent on the floor the lobby wasn't smoke logged and in the signal the lobby was smoke log yes so it
03:28:41 signal the lobby was smoke log yes so it just didn't make any sense so I'm assume assume that maybe the fire had jumped to the fifth floor and caused more damage this sick booklet which initially got a little bit more smoke in that Lobby area right and did
03:28:58 smoke in that Lobby area right and did you have any thoughts about whether compartment ation was holding or whether it had been breached I didn't have any forms at that time I just wanted to get crews up there to deal with what we had
03:29:09 crews up there to deal with what we had right did you have any thoughts about whether you needed to be telling residents on the sixth floor that you just arrived on to to leave the building my initial thoughts was just to get
03:29:20 my initial thoughts was just to get firefighters with equipment up to those flats right now in on page 9 of your statement in the third paragraph
03:29:37 you
03:29:44 sorry I'm the second paragraph I'm so sorry the second paragraph you say in the middle of that paragraph that you opened the door of a flat immediately
03:29:57 opened the door of a flat immediately above the fire flat on the fourth floor and I checked the door it was closed but unlocked so I open didn't had a quick peek
03:30:04 peek that was a six people yes exactly it was heavily smoke logged did you call out inside the flat to see if anybody was
03:30:15 inside the flat to see if anybody was inside at now do you remember whether you told anybody on that floor to run no
03:30:30 was the smoke logging in that flat heavier than the flat that you looked into on the fifth floor yes could you describe it it was thick
03:30:41 yes could you describe it it was thick black smoke for two ceiling what about heat to do explain to any he's don't remember feeling I didn't go into the flat I literally opened a couple of benches to assess the flat and closed the door again did could you see or even
03:30:56 the door again did could you see or even take an educated guess as to the source of the smoke inside the flat no now you say a couple of lines down I closed the lobby I shut the door and made my way
03:31:07 lobby I shut the door and made my way back to the stairway I closed the lobby door behind me and again radiator down to the EE co2 tell them at this point they were receiving messages I was able to communicate with them and they got an acknowledgment from fire annex firefighters in door bin just on that
03:31:21 firefighters in door bin just on that what did you say to him do you know there was a fire or smoke and possible barrel on the sixth floor and needed be a cruise with a medium frequent well
03:31:32 a cruise with a medium frequent well didn't he break it work by fire media did you express any concern to Alex decent although I said it as I met that matter of urgency now forgive me for
03:31:44 matter of urgency now forgive me for this but William what's planetary O'Keefe recalls receiving a message he says from you over the radio to the saying it's it's
03:31:55 the radio to the saying it's it's going it's completely smoked out on this floor do you think that you did send him a message like that no there are I wouldn't have sent a message like that no no wasn't me no you then say in the
03:32:12 no no wasn't me no you then say in the third the same paragraph on page nine
03:32:19 firefighter hip holes as four lines up from the end went back down to the fifth
03:32:26 do you remember that or do you are you assuming that I'm assuming for that's when I saw him next when I came out there lobbying went back down to the fish when you came under the lobby did you see anybody no right when you came
03:32:38 you see anybody no right when you came back out what were the conditions like in the stairwell at that point it's still clear still clear right so no change in a stairwell no change change right that takes us back down to the fifth floor and mr. chairman has just
03:32:50 fifth floor and mr. chairman has just past one o'clock that's it fits in for me personally a convenient moment it maybe could be I was looking you relevant to see if you got to a convenient point yes yes can be yes I'm
03:33:03 convenient point yes yes can be yes I'm in your hands and I think it'd be sensible to break there may I ask that we resume after one hour just we do have a witness after that after I know we do
03:33:14 a witness after that after I know we do it's watch manager it's tends to be convenient to time ourselves by reference to something very concrete on the top so five past two if I say it's three minutes past two well that's true
03:33:26 three minutes past two well that's true five minutes in five past we're gonna have a break now mr. stern until five four two so you've got to talk to get some lunch can you please not talk to anyone about your evidence or anything
03:33:38 anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it over the break and we'll be back and bypass system right thank you very much
03:33:49 but five pose - jeez
03:34:01 you