Firefighter Dean Roberts gives evidence about his experiences responding to Grenfell Tower, including rescuing a casualty from the 20th floor and the conditions encountered in the stairwell
00:00:02 I think just coming I Okay.
00:00:26 Repeat after me. I do solely, sincerely, and truly
00:00:30 and truly I do solely, sincerely, and truly declare and declare declare and confirm that the evidence I should give that the evidence I should be the truth shall be the truth. The whole truth.
00:00:43 Thank you very much, Mr. Roll. Sit down. Make yourself comfortable.
00:00:48 Yes, good afternoon. First of all, could you confirm your name? Yes, it's Dean Roberts. Um, first of all, thank you very much for coming along today to give evidence. It's much appreciated. Um, in the file in front of you, the
00:00:59 Um, in the file in front of you, the blue folder, hopefully behind the first tab, you'll find your witness statement. Yes, that's correct. Dated the 5th of December, 2017.
00:01:10 Dated the 5th of December, 2017. Have you read that recently? I have. Yeah. And you confirm that its contents are true?
00:01:14 true? Yes. And if you turn to the next tab, hopefully you'll find your contemporaneous note. And have you read that document also recently?
00:01:23 recently? I have. Yeah. And you confirm the contents of that document are also true? Yes.
00:01:27 Yes. And you content that those documents stand as your evidence of the inquiry? Yep.
00:01:31 Yep. Um Mr. Roberts, thank you. Um as I've said to other witnesses, I'm not going to take you through each and every line of your statement of contemporariness note. I'm [snorts] simply going to sort of draw out particular topics and events
00:01:43 of draw out particular topics and events and discuss them with you. Okay. Now, if I don't ask a clear question, say so and I'll rephrase it and put it more clearly and in better terms uh for you.
00:01:53 you. Now, um could we first start with some basic details? Um you've been a firefighter since 2010. Is that right? Yeah, that's correct. And you're based at Paddington. Based at Paddington.
00:02:04 Based at Paddington. And you're a member of the FRU crew. Is that right? Yeah, that's correct. Uh you're a trained driver. Yes. And in particular, you're trained to drive the fire and rescue unit. I am. Yes. Um, now the first substantive topic I'd
00:02:16 Um, now the first substantive topic I'd like to discuss with you is training and experience, Mr. Roberts. Okay.
00:02:19 Okay. Um, first of all, what high-rise firefighting training have you received? Um we cover quite a lot of high-rise on the basic firefighter course which was held at so when I did it and that was
00:02:30 held at so when I did it and that was over four months and we we basically touched on various elements through theory work and then it sort of concluded with a um sort of large scale exercise at Morton on the Morton on the
00:02:41 exercise at Morton on the Morton on the marsh. So that's the training fire center college. Uh so we did that there. Um, also at Paddington cuz we've got like a quite a large tower, we do
00:02:53 like a quite a large tower, we do drills on that quite regularly and we've got various different machines so we can sort of chop and change as we see what we want to do on. Thank you. If we can deal with interrupt, can I ask for is the witness a bit too
00:03:05 can I ask for is the witness a bit too close to the microphone? Close.
00:03:08 Close. Okay.
00:03:08 Okay. You're a bit too close. Yes. [laughter] Is that better? Thank you, sir.
00:03:16 dealing with the first element of that, the drills at Morton on Marsh, did the drills you carry out there, did they um involve a partial or total evacuation? Uh no.
00:03:26 Uh no. Uh did they consider what to do should there be a breach of compartmentation in a high-rise fire? Just basically with firefighting on the outside is just to get a covering jet and to cover the surrounding area. But
00:03:37 and to cover the surrounding area. But apart from that, no. uh dealing with the second uh drill facility you discussed the tower at the Paddington station. Yes.
00:03:45 Yes. Um have the drills there involved uh partial or total evacuation? Uh no, it's basically the tower is just it's a small singlestory tower of around
00:03:56 it's a small singlestory tower of around 10 floors. It's all down to imagination. It's it's all sort of make believe. There's nothing really you can do to put people up there and evacuate them as such.
00:04:07 such. In terms of lectures, have you had any particular lectures that deal with the risk posed by cladding on high-rise buildings? Not at all. What training do you receive as a member
00:04:18 What training do you receive as a member of the FRU crew? When I did it, it was a four-week course and that was held at Savoc. There's [snorts]
00:04:24 [snorts] um various core components. So, you spend like a week doing heavy RTC. There's a small section that you do line training. Uh,
00:04:35 training. Uh, you do stuff on rot. So, you go down on the rail on the under tube on the underground and do evacuation from a tube and sort of sort of stuff like that really.
00:04:45 really. Okay. Did you receive any training in relation to uh use and operation of extended duration breathing apparatus? Yeah, you do do a 3-day course prior to going on your FIU course. Um, is it
00:04:57 going on your FIU course. Um, is it right that only FRUS carry EDBA equipment? That is correct. Yeah. Um, compared to standard duration breathing apparatus, what additional equipment does the EDBA require?
00:05:08 equipment does the EDBA require? Um, the elements are pretty much the same. The only difference is the amount of time you can spend under air. I think the duration is around 40 40 to 45 minutes, but then that depends on
00:05:20 minutes, but then that depends on obviously your working duration, how heavy you're breathing, how hard you're working, etc. Uh, and again, so what did I say? The weight and obviously it's a twocylinder rather than one. So
00:05:32 twocylinder rather than one. So maneuverability is a little bit more difficult. So getting around is that little bit more intense. Now I don't know whether you were able to hear this this morning, but we heard from Mr. Gillum who said that even if a
00:05:44 from Mr. Gillum who said that even if a firefighter hadn't been trained in the use of EDBA, uh, experience of SDBA ought to be sufficient to allow him to use it. Would you agree with that proposition? Yeah, I sort of say yeah, I would. The
00:05:57 Yeah, I sort of say yeah, I would. The elements are exactly the same. You put the set on, the only real difference you're going to notice is the weight and the size.
00:06:02 the size. What is your view of the practicability of BA wearers, whether it's extended or standard duration, carrying a supplemental mask, uh should the need arise in search and rescue tasks? Um,
00:06:13 arise in search and rescue tasks? Um, it's it's all well and good carrying a a second mask to use on casualties and firefighters if they become sort of entrapped or need any supply of oxygen, but that's also limiting you and the
00:06:25 but that's also limiting you and the amount of oxygen you've got. Like for me, example, I use quite a lot of air when I go into jobs. So, I breathe quite heavily. I get through my air a lot quicker than some of the guys like say for example Martin Gillum. So, me
00:06:36 for example Martin Gillum. So, me sticking a supplementary set would be a no no because I'd run out of air myself and then I'd become a casualty. That's useful. Now, the next topic I'd like to discuss with you is the night itself.
00:06:47 discuss with you is the night itself. Okay.
00:06:47 Okay. And first of all, it's a matter of record that you were mobilized at 20 1 on the road at 1:22 and you arrived at the scene at 135. Does that sound about right to you? That sounds about correct. Yeah.
00:06:58 That sounds about correct. Yeah. And it's right that you were riding with crew manager Wiggley and with firefighters Gillum, Gonzalez, and Harris. Is that right? Yes.
00:07:05 Yes. Um, could I ask you to turn to page three of your witness statement? And it's really nine lines down from the top of the page
00:07:19 and it says, "We progress down the harrow road. Our MDT failed and had gone off." Um, how regularly does that happen? Um, just just from my experience
00:07:30 happen? Um, just just from my experience that night it happened and there's been several occasions where sometimes the system does crash and you have to resort back to getting on the actual main scheme radio and contacting control. I'm too close.
00:07:41 I'm too close. I'm I'm sorry to interrupt. Too close. You're too close. Yes. Can I suggest you you find it easier if you put push that back and you can afford to be this far from the microphone. Otherwise,
00:07:52 this far from the microphone. Otherwise, you get a buzz on the line and the short hand rider can't hear you. No problem. Mr. Roberts, I'm sorry. I should have picked up the shorthand writers semifor signal. So, apologies for that. Um,
00:08:03 for that. Um, when it does when the MDT does crash, what are the usual remedial measures? Um, can you reboot, for example? Yeah, there's a there's a button behind the driver's seat that you just push and it'll reboot the whole system.
00:08:14 it'll reboot the whole system. And how long does that take to take effect?
00:08:17 effect? It can take anything from a minute onwards. Okay. um in your statement um you say
00:08:25 you say page three some 12 or 15 lines down we had no mapping system so we referred back to the old mapping books in the back of the FRU by old mapping books um
00:08:36 back of the FRU by old mapping books um is that basically an A to Z yeah basically an an A to Z yeah okay um the next topic I'd like to discuss with you is access on the night and if again I could ask you to keep uh page three of your statement open the
00:08:48 page three of your statement open the large paragraph on that page four lines up from the bottom of that paragraph. You said these roads were really tight. The cars were all double parked and some were parked on double sold yellow lines.
00:09:00 were parked on double sold yellow lines. There was an issue getting through easily. I recall there was only one car that we needed to move out of the way, but luckily I think it had its handbrake off because one of my colleagues rolled it out of the way quite easily. Um, how
00:09:12 it out of the way quite easily. Um, how long did access problems delay your arrival at the scene? Um, just a couple of minutes. It was just initially that that car was just in the way. The FIU is slightly longer than
00:09:24 the way. The FIU is slightly longer than the normal fire engine. So I had to sort of think about the maneuverability of getting that through there. And luckily for us, it seemed the handbrake was on cuz firefighter Gillum just sort of pushed it out the way with fire fighter
00:09:35 pushed it out the way with fire fighter Gonzalez. uh looking further down the page to the second paragraph on that page um roughly halfway down sentence where you say I managed to drive the FRU and park it approximately 100 meters
00:09:47 and park it approximately 100 meters away on the approach road to the tower. Now Paul could I ask you to turn up Met013078.
00:09:57 Now if that's able to be magnified so the clarity is greater. Um, are you able to identify on the big screen uh where you parked the the FRU?
00:10:08 you parked the the FRU? Um, it was on Grenfell Road just next to the electricity substation. So, just where the path in front of that is, that's where we parked. So, looking at that plan on the right hand side where the legend is
00:10:20 hand side where the legend is electricity substation. Yep.
00:10:23 Yep. And then the uh command unit come in behind me and parked literally directly behind.
00:10:29 behind. And how long how soon after was that parked up? Um, that was almost instantaneous. As I as we were moving the uh the vehicle out out the way, I seen the command unit in
00:10:41 out the way, I seen the command unit in my re my side mirrors and then he sort of followed us in down Grenfell Road and parked up. Thank you. Could I ask you to turn over the page to page four of your witness statement and the first uh substantive
00:10:53 statement and the first uh substantive paragraph on that page and I'll I'll read it out. After a few minutes, I met up with the rest of the crew outside the tower. We all stayed together and we all worked together. Crew manager Wiggly explained to us that the crew were
00:11:05 explained to us that the crew were tasked to take all the line gear to the top of the tower. I do not know who asked us. We were not told any more information and we all questioned this as it was a strange task and the information was brief, but we did as we
00:11:17 information was brief, but we did as we were told and decided to assess things when we get the line gear to the roof. The line gear is similar to climbing gear. It was a strange task as line gear and fire do not go well together unless there is a specific reason. As a crew,
00:11:29 there is a specific reason. As a crew, we questioned this task. However, we did not get an answer. To this date, I do not know the reason for taking the line gear to the roof. I think the line gear was needed at the roof so then you'd be able to fight fire from the roof down
00:11:42 able to fight fire from the roof down the tower. Now, could I ask you a couple of questions arising out of that paragraph? Can you now remember the precise words that crew manager Wiggley gave to you or the gist of the words he
00:11:54 gave to you or the gist of the words he used when describing the task you were directed to carry out? Because I'm the driver, obviously the the crew had gone slightly ahead of me cuz I was getting rigged. So there is potential there that I did miss a more
00:12:06 potential there that I did miss a more thorough briefing. So obviously rather than waste time and crew manager Wiggley give me a full-on brief that he may have give to the crew prior to my arrival then I may have missed something. But he
00:12:18 then I may have missed something. But he basically said we've got to take the line gear up to the roof. Did he did anyone ask who'd given that order?
00:12:25 order? Um I was one of them. I'm not too sure whether firefighter Gillum did or firefighter Gonzalez. What answer did you get? Uh I think it was watch manager Dowan and he said we've just been tasked to go
00:12:36 and he said we've just been tasked to go to the roof. So at the end of the third line it says we all questioned this as it was a strange task. Can you remember what you said in response to the order?
00:12:47 response to the order? Um just for me I was just looking at the bigger picture of the scene and the scenario and the way the fire had developed that quickly from obviously a time of the initial time of call to when we got there. It was I was concerned
00:12:58 we got there. It was I was concerned that the roof may have been compromised. what would happen if we got up there with the line and there was fire cuz we initially were going in with no media. Um the access to and from the roof
00:13:11 Um the access to and from the roof generally in high-rise buildings there's some sort of locked gate, ladders to get up there. Do we have keys? All that sort of stuff was sort of going through my mind at that time. You say it was going through your m mind. Did you articulate that to crew
00:13:22 mind. Did you articulate that to crew manager Wiggley? I don't think I did just because I think time was at the essence and it wasn't normal circumstances for us to stand about questioning. We just wanted to get on with the task and get up there and with a sort of assess once we got to the
00:13:34 with a sort of assess once we got to the roof and make a decision when we were got when we were up there. What did any other members of the crew say, if anything? Um, I couldn't tell you. You don't remember? I don't I don't know. Um, you say in the paragraph, we decided
00:13:47 Um, you say in the paragraph, we decided to assess things when we get the line gear to the roof. When the crew made this decision, were you looking at the tower and were you able to evaluate the rate at which the fire was spreading?
00:13:58 rate at which the fire was spreading? Um, again for me personally, that's one of the things I was I was actually looking at. Again, looking at the bigger picture, whether the others did that, that's something you'd have to you'd have to ask them. I don't know.
00:14:09 have to ask them. I don't know. You went on to say it was a strange task as line gear and fire does not go well together unless there is a specific reason. Um, it's maybe obvious. Um, but can I ask you the obvious question? Why do line gear and fire not go well
00:14:21 do line gear and fire not go well together?
00:14:21 together? Cuz it will burn. Yeah. And what would be the specific reason that would justify the use of line gear where there's fire given the risk of uh I'd say basically in that scenario if
00:14:32 I'd say basically in that scenario if the fire had actually been contained just to the eastern side then we could have set line up over to the western side and worked from that side with the line.
00:14:42 line. Um, can I ask you to turn to page nine in your witness statement? In the second paragraph
00:14:49 paragraph and the first three lines, um, with the line gear, I found out after my shift that we would not have been able to take the line gear to the roof as there was a metal gate that was locked and would
00:15:00 metal gate that was locked and would have blocked our access. We did not know at the time, but we were never going to get up onto the roof. Um, had the crew made it to the roof? Um, would did you have the necessary kit to gain access to
00:15:12 have the necessary kit to gain access to that roof? From what I know now, it was a girder key that opened. It was like a black five bar metal gate. We wouldn't have got up there. We do carry keys.
00:15:23 got up there. We do carry keys. Paddington each personally have their own set of keys, but there wasn't a key that we had for that particular lock that night when we went up. There is girder of keys on the trucks that we could have potentially taken off but we
00:15:35 could have potentially taken off but we didn't know. Okay. Um the next topic I'd like to discuss with you is the arrival at the bridge head. And if I could ask you to turn back in your statement to page four and the third paragraph on that page and I
00:15:47 the third paragraph on that page and I think five lines from the top and it starts when we got onto the metanine flooring there were a couple of crews hanging around and one of the ma watch managers from Kensington asked us
00:15:58 managers from Kensington asked us whether we had been tasked. We told them that we'd been tasked to take the line gear up and a second fur would take over. There was a bit of questioning about what we were going to
00:16:09 questioning about what we were going to do once we got there between our crew manager and the watch manager. We were asked whether we had a backup crew and emergency crew. We were asked where the next crew was and how far they were going to be. Because of the way the fire
00:16:21 going to be. Because of the way the fire was going at that time and we believed the next through crew wasn't that far behind. We made a decision that we were going up the tower with the line gear. We were told the stairwell was quite clear [clears throat] that it wasn't
00:16:32 clear [clears throat] that it wasn't smoke logged, so we didn't go up using any breathing apparatus. Now, taking a step back there, first of all, who was asking the questions? Was it the watch manager or was it crew manager
00:16:44 watch manager or was it crew manager Wiggley?
00:16:45 Wiggley? I think it was crew manager Wiggley and watch manager O'Keefe. Okay. Uh, what did M uh what did Mr. O'Keefe ask? Can you remember? I couldn't say. Can you remember what Mr. Wiggley asked?
00:16:56 Can you remember what Mr. Wiggley asked? I couldn't say again. Uh can you remember whether Mr. O'Keefe um discussed the use of EDBA and whether it might be used for search and rescue for
00:17:07 might be used for search and rescue for example?
00:17:09 example? Again, it's another question I can't answer.
00:17:14 Mr. Gillum said earlier that when they told Mr. O'Keefe uh what you were planning on doing, he responded, "Yeah, I don't really want you to do that, but go on." Do you have any memory of that no exchange?
00:17:28 In that paragraph said, "We were asked whether we had a backup crew, an emergency crew. Who asked that question or those questions?" I think that was firefighter Gillan, but I'm not 100% sure.
00:17:39 I'm not 100% sure. Who answered those questions? Again, I'm not sure. It would possibly been watch manager O'Keefe. again dealing with another element of that paragraph. You said because of the
00:17:50 that paragraph. You said because of the way the fire was going at that time and we believed that the next fruit crew wasn't that far behind, we made a decision that we were going to go up the tower with the line gear. Um, first of all, which way was the fire going at
00:18:01 all, which way was the fire going at that time? It was just on the eastern side, so it was about three or four floors from the top.
00:18:08 top. And taking a step back between your time between your arrival at the scene and going into the tower, can you describe how far and at what rate the fire had
00:18:19 how far and at what rate the fire had spread? I didn't actually see any sort of fire spread. I just it's sort of was around the same sort of level. Obviously, I was concerned about it getting to the roof and that was where we were going.
00:18:30 we were going. And when you say because of the way the fire was going at the time, was that an assessment made by the crew, Mr. O'Keefe, or both? Can you remember? I couldn't answer.
00:18:41 I couldn't answer. What was the basis of the belief that the next crew wasn't far behind? Um, I think we heard multiple calls or it had been made up and FIUs were requested, so we knew they they wasn't
00:18:53 requested, so we knew they they wasn't going to be that far anyway. I think Chelsea was the next closest one. I'm not too sure. But now the final bit of the quotation I put you was, "We were told the stairwell was
00:19:04 you was, "We were told the stairwell was quite clear that it wasn't smoke logged, so we didn't go up using any breathing apparatus." Can you remember who told you that?
00:19:09 you that? Uh, that was Watch Manager O'Keefe. Uh, can you remember the words used or the gist of the words he used? Now, the next topic I'd like to discuss with you is the start of your ascent up
00:19:21 with you is the start of your ascent up the tower. And if I could ask you to turn to page five of your statement and the second sentence from the top of the page and I'll read out a few lines. We walked up to approximately the fourth
00:19:33 walked up to approximately the fourth floor.
00:19:34 floor. All right, just wait a minute. Yep. Go on, Mr. And there it became apparent to us that we were unable to progress any further without any breathing apparatus. There was too much smoke visibly. It didn't
00:19:46 was too much smoke visibly. It didn't look like too much, but we were struggling to breathe and were coughing. So, we left all the apparatus we were carrying on the fourth floor and went back down the stairs. Um, first of all, on what floor after
00:19:57 Um, first of all, on what floor after you'd left the bridge head did you first encounter smoke? I think it was just between floors three and floor four. Can you describe the smoke when you first encountered it? Um, it was pretty clear, light, wispy
00:20:09 Um, it was pretty clear, light, wispy white gray smoke. Nothing too spectacular really. It was And that's what you meant when you say visibly it didn't look too much. Yeah, you could see. You could see perfectly fine. Um,
00:20:21 Um, you returned uh to the BH and what did you at the bridge head and what did you do there?
00:20:25 do there? Uh, that's where we started up and went under air and put EDBA sets. And if I could ask Paul to turn up the telemetry data at this point.
00:20:49 And if we could go to box 43.
00:21:01 Uh starting reading from left to right. Uh that's your name. Yeah.
00:21:08 Yeah. And if we go to the furthest green column there, 157 I think is your tally out time. Is that right? Yeah, that would seem about right. Yeah. Um
00:21:19 Yeah. Um thank you Paul. when you'd gone back to the BH gone under air before you went under air did you inform uh Mr. Is there a key for anyone else at the bridge head of the conditions you encountered on the stairwell? Um this obviously the stairwell is quite
00:21:31 Um this obviously the stairwell is quite a tight space and when as we came back down the we're a crew of five so space was limited so I I wasn't at the front where any conversations were going on so I couldn't tell you
00:21:42 I couldn't tell you where the conversations were going on. Were conversations going on? Yeah, there was a conversation I think between watch manager O'Keefe crew manager Wiggley and I think firefighter
00:21:53 manager Wiggley and I think firefighter Gillum possibly. I'm not sure. But did you didn't hear the exchange? No, I I was right at the back. Um, if I can ask you to turn back to page five and roughly um halfway down
00:22:05 page five and roughly um halfway down that paragraph starts with the words, when we were walking up at around floor 10 or 11, we saw a couple of crews walking down. When we saw them, we had a short discussion just clarifying that they were going
00:22:16 just clarifying that they were going down and we were going up. Um, first of all, can you remember what the first crew said to you? Again, I wasn't at the front of the queue or at the front of the crew going up, so I wouldn't have spoke to them. It
00:22:29 up, so I wouldn't have spoke to them. It would have just been a sort of pass on the stairs as they were going down. No information was passed to me at all. Um, so I can understand the order that you're going up. Who was leading the way up the stairs? Can you remember?
00:22:40 up the stairs? Can you remember? I think initially it was firefighter Gillum, crew manager Wiggley, myself, firefighter Gonzalez, followed by firefighter Harris at the back. And did you stay in that formation as
00:22:51 And did you stay in that formation as you went up the tower? No, there was there was various changes as we got up high of the tower and we sort of juggled kit around. Uh, did you have any discussion with any member of the second crew you encountered on the way up? I personally didn't, but whether anybody
00:23:03 I personally didn't, but whether anybody else in the crew did, I don't know. Um, there was some discussion this morning as to which members of the crew um had the Barry sets. Can you remember um who had Barry sets? Me as the driver, I definitely didn't
00:23:15 Me as the driver, I definitely didn't have one. So, I think it would have been crew manager Wiggley and possibly either firefighter Harris or firefighter Gonzalez.
00:23:22 Gonzalez. Can you remember a member of the crew radioing the bridge here to say that you'd met and encountered these two crews?
00:23:27 crews? Um, I don't know. It's something you'd have to ask them.
00:23:34 Now, in that same paragraph, you say visibility was good. Um, at that time, were the stairwells lit? Can you remember?
00:23:41 remember? Um, yeah, it was pretty pretty clear, pretty light. You could see the person in front of you as you were walking up all the way up to possibly around floor 10 I think it was.
00:23:53 possibly around floor 10 I think it was. And so just to be clear, your recollection is that the stairwell was lit up until the floor 10. I think I think so. Can you describe the smoke conditions you encountered on floor 10? Again, it wasn't any difference to
00:24:05 Again, it wasn't any difference to downstairs really. It was visibility was pretty good. Temp. There was a slight temperature increase, but nothing that sort of threw it out of the ordinary. Can you remember its color? The smoke? No.
00:24:17 No. Could you see where the smoke was coming from?
00:24:19 from? No.
00:24:20 No. As you'd gone up the stairwell, had you noticed whether the doors, the lobbies were open or closed? I didn't notice any doors open on any of the floors all the way up.
00:24:33 Uh, in his evidence, crew manager Wiggly noted the smoke levels eased as you went up the building. Does that accord with your recollection? Sorry, can you say that again? Yes. Crew manager Wiggley noted in his statement that smoke levels in fact
00:24:45 statement that smoke levels in fact eased as you went up the tower. Yeah. Sort of as you got past I think it was about 4 10 11 it sort of slightly the going was pretty pretty straightforward quite quite simple. We
00:24:57 straightforward quite quite simple. We just sort of walked up there. There was no nothing that again that stood out and said there was a a major fire going on outside. Uh what was in the stairwell as you went up? Was there any were there any obstacles? again lower down I didn't
00:25:09 obstacles? again lower down I didn't notice anything all the way up nothing at all. It was only when we came back down there was hose in the stairwell. Um in the same paragraph you go on to say
00:25:20 in the same paragraph you go on to say it was eerily quiet and it felt like it was only us there. We didn't realize what was going on outside. We didn't have any communications. Our radios were not working. We tried several times to make contact with the communications
00:25:32 make contact with the communications operator at the bridge head but here there was no response. It felt like we were somewhat blind inside. Um, starting from the beginning, were your radios working when you were on the fourth
00:25:44 working when you were on the fourth floor?
00:25:46 floor? Again, I didn't have a Barry set, so I wouldn't know whether the radios were working. There was traffic going over the main scheme on handheld radios, but apart from that, I don't know.
00:25:57 apart from that, I don't know. And could you hear the traffic on the handheld radios as you [clears throat] went up the tower to the 10th 11th floor?
00:26:03 floor? I don't remember any at all.
00:26:07 Um the next topic I'd like to discuss with you is floor 20 itself. Uh and by the time you reached the 20th floor, can you describe the conditions you encountered
00:26:19 describe the conditions you encountered in the stairwell? Again, the stairwell was was pretty clear. Visibility was pretty good. There was no major change in the stairwell at all.
00:26:30 stairwell at all. Um, looking at par page five of your witness statement, the last paragraph on on that page and five lines up from the bottom, uh, you say this. Um, you've
00:26:41 bottom, uh, you say this. Um, you've reached floor 20. The time was now approximately 0200 2:15 a.m. As I put the gear down that I was carrying, I noticed an Asian looking female standing in the corner of the stairwell between
00:26:52 in the corner of the stairwell between floors 20 and 21. I didn't know where she had come from or whether she was with anyone. So with firefighter Gillum, I went up to speak to her. I asked her where she had come from, who she was
00:27:03 where she had come from, who she was with, and if she had anyone else. Um, just for the sake of completeness, um, could I ask, did you or any other member of the crew radio the bridgehead to
00:27:14 of the crew radio the bridgehead to inform them you found a casualty on the stairwell? I tried on my handheld radio and I believe they would have definitely tried on the Barry radios to try and get
00:27:25 tried on the Barry radios to try and get cons because that is normal procedure. If we find a casualty, we'll inform them the bridge head and let them know and then we'll start coming out with a casualty.
00:27:32 casualty. Were you able to get through when you radioed?
00:27:34 radioed? There wasn't nothing at all. There was no traffic. I couldn't hear any traffic. The line was dead completely. I don't know whether it was dead, but there was just nothing. We wasn't receiving anything back. Were you hearing anything? Nothing at
00:27:46 Were you hearing anything? Nothing at all.
00:27:49 all. Um, Mr. Gillum stayed with the woman. Did you go into the lobby of floor 20 to see whether there were any other casualties? Yeah. So, once once we found the casualty, obviously she was on her own.
00:28:00 casualty, obviously she was on her own. So, sort of our logic was thinking she's possibly with somebody else, a family member. She wasn't giving out any sort of information. So, I decided that it was basically when you find a casualty,
00:28:11 was basically when you find a casualty, we do a secondary sweep. And that's basically searching within the vicinity to see if there's anybody else with her. So my secondary suite was a little bit further. So I went up to the 21st floor.
00:28:23 further. So I went up to the 21st floor. If I can stop stop you there. If we look at floor 20 first of all the secondary sweep. You're on the stairwell between the 20th and the 21st floor.
00:28:33 floor. Yeah.
00:28:34 Yeah. Did you carry out a secondary sweep of the lobby of the 20th floor? The 20th? No. I was I was already up between those two floors. Whether somebody at the back, firefighter Harris or Gonzalez did, I don't know. That's
00:28:46 or Gonzalez did, I don't know. That's something you'd have to ask them. You went up to the 21st floor. Apologies I interrupted you. Yeah.
00:28:50 Yeah. And you carried out a secondary sweep on that. Is that right? I basically opened the door into the um the lobby area. And if I could stop you there. What were the conditions on the 21st lobby?
00:29:01 the conditions on the 21st lobby? Um visibility was zero. I had no torch on. There was no light. I could literally have to put my hand in front of my face to see anything in there. Did you go into the the
00:29:12 you go into the the I took I took a couple of steps in and then sort of as I turned around I could see the door closing. So I was quite concerned if I did sort of get disorientated and the door did close and
00:29:23 disorientated and the door did close and firefighter Gillan wasn't to come out I could have potentially got lost on that 21st floor. Now what would a secondary what would a secondary sweep involve in this context?
00:29:34 secondary sweep involve in this context? Would it involve knocking on the doors of each individual flat or not? I think if visibility had been good enough, that's something I definitely would have done. But as I couldn't literally see in
00:29:46 done. But as I couldn't literally see in front of me, there's no way I could have gone in there and like time constraints of the amount of air we used to get up there. We was we were sort of getting close to our turnaround point anyway. And um what did you shout if anything
00:29:58 And um what did you shout if anything when you opened the door to the 21st lobby?
00:30:01 lobby? It was something along the lines of uh we firefighters, can anybody hear me? And I was obviously you're in a BA mass so you've got to sort of shout as loud as possible. And again doing that you're
00:30:12 as possible. And again doing that you're taking down the contents of your cylinder but then I started to kick the doors like the actual entrance of the door into the stairwell to see if anybody could hear me but there was there was sort of no reaction.
00:30:24 there was sort of no reaction. And how long did it take to carry out that secondary sweep of the 21st floor? It was really quick, probably 30 seconds and I was sort of in shouted and then Martin Gillum opened the door and I went
00:30:35 Martin Gillum opened the door and I went out and just passed it on to him and then basically what I did then is said I'll just double check the next floor. So I went up and did exactly the same. If I can stop you there. What were the
00:30:46 If I can stop you there. What were the what was there any difference between the conditions between the 21st and the 22nd floor in the stairwell? No, the stairwell was didn't really change at all. And as you opened the
00:30:57 change at all. And as you opened the door into the 22nd floor lobby, what did you encounter? Again, exactly the same as the 21st floor. Pitch black, eerily quiet, you couldn't see in front, literally
00:31:08 you couldn't see in front, literally your hand in front of your face. And what secondary sweep did you carry out on the floor? I did the same. I took a couple of steps and noticed the door was shut in. So I I had to go back out.
00:31:20 had to go back out. And how long did you spend on the 22nd floor?
00:31:22 floor? Again, it was so quick. 30 seconds if that.
00:31:26 that. Um,
00:31:28 Um, did you or any member of the crew uh report the conditions that you encountered on the 21st and 22nd floor back to the bridge head at that point? I'm not too sure cuz as myself, I came
00:31:39 I'm not too sure cuz as myself, I came out with the casualty. So, I sort of went straight out onto the mezzanine flooring. So, whether any of the other crew passed that information on, I couldn't tell you.
00:31:50 couldn't tell you. Um,
00:31:51 Um, do you recall whether communications were restored at any point on your descent down the tower? Not that I'm aware of. Again, it was sort of you were so involved with bringing the casualty down, how much air
00:32:04 bringing the casualty down, how much air you had, you were just trying to get out basically. And as you got lower and lower, the conditions were getting worse and worse. It was getting hotter and darker from around floor 10, 11. And then around
00:32:15 then around if I could stop you before you go any further.
00:32:17 further. The
00:32:19 The um as you before you started the descent itself, can you remember how much air you had left or how many minutes you gauged you had left under air? We've probably used up half the duration. Carrying that amount of kit up
00:32:32 duration. Carrying that amount of kit up was quite a a physical task. So we wasn't sure of the conditions, especially as we were going up. It was quite warm. We didn't know if anything was going to deteriorate. So you sort of got to factor in getting out as well as
00:32:44 got to factor in getting out as well as obviously getting in and sort of making that judgment. So we sort of wanted to save a little bit extra air to make sure we got out. Okay.
00:32:58 Now on pages six and seven of your statement, you describe the descent down the tower with the the woman you'd rescued. On the second paragraph of page six, roughly halfway down, you say,
00:33:09 six, roughly halfway down, you say, "When we got to approximately floor 11 or 10, conditions all of a sudden became really hot. It was so hot, my legs were getting extremely hot." Um, as we were walking, I noticed that
00:33:21 Um, as we were walking, I noticed that the female was starting to darken as well. This is when the smoke comes into contact with the skin, causing it to become darker in color. The female appeared to be choking a lot more. She was sick and then became unconscious. I
00:33:32 was sick and then became unconscious. I shouted out to the rest of the crew this change to the female. So, we began to move um faster. Now, if I can take each element of that stage by stage. I interrupted you
00:33:43 stage by stage. I interrupted you earlier on. You were describing smoke conditions as you came down [laughter] the tower. Can you describe first of all coming down from the 20th to the 15th floor what the smoke conditions were like on
00:33:54 what the smoke conditions were like on those five floors? It was pretty clear. There wasn't really much of a change. Visibility was good down them floors. You could see your crew in front of you. I was carrying a casualty at the head end. So I had her arms. Firefighter Gillum had the legs
00:34:06 arms. Firefighter Gillum had the legs and I could see firefighter Gillum and whoever was in front of him quite clearly.
00:34:12 clearly. And what was the position between the 15th and 10th floors in terms of again exact exactly the same. And were you able to identify a cause for this sudden increase in heat that you encountered around floor 10 or 11?
00:34:23 you encountered around floor 10 or 11? No.
00:34:29 You're aware of metabolic uh heat stress. Yes.
00:34:33 Yes. Um did you did you think you were suffering from it? You experiencing the symptoms as you came down? I was hot but there was nothing there that really suggested that I was
00:34:44 there that really suggested that I was suffering from any stress at all? No. Uh when you reached the bottom of the tower, understandably you were preoccupied with ensuring the lady received medical treatment. Um, did you have the opportunity to return to entry
00:34:56 have the opportunity to return to entry control to brief them on what you'd encountered? I didn't personally because we, as we obviously came out with the casualty, we were expecting sort of a hand over to Alas, but they wasn't there. So, myself
00:35:07 Alas, but they wasn't there. So, myself and firefighter Gillum took her down out of the tower to the awaiting Alas. Um, whether anybody of the crew out of the crew did that, I don't know.
00:35:22 Uh, Were you able to see any information um any information when you were back in the towers to what you'd encountered on the 20th, 21st and 22nd floors on the
00:35:33 the 20th, 21st and 22nd floors on the walls or anything like that? Is this in relation to later on? No, just that when you Not that I noticed everything was so quick bringing her out. We just got outside so quickly. I don't remember sort of seeing anything at all.
00:35:45 sort of seeing anything at all. Um could I now turn to uh the topic of the uh the woman from flat 183? Could I ask you to turn to page seven of your statement and the bottom of page seven,
00:35:58 statement and the bottom of page seven, the final two lines
00:36:05 and you said as we were doing this I assistant casualties I assisted the removal of a conscious lady who told me she was from flat 183 on the 15th floor.
00:36:17 she was from flat 183 on the 15th floor. She told me that her 12-year-old daughter, her two dogs, um, a male and a pregnant friend were still in the flat. Um, to whom did you pass the information that the woman had given you regarding her daughter and the others?
00:36:29 her daughter and the others? Um, I initially went over to the outside of the tower where there was a paladine bins was set up with all the FSGs going on on the floor. I don't know who I passed the information on, but I
00:36:41 who I passed the information on, but I passed it on there and I think they told me to then go and tell the bridge head. And I also went back into the town to tell the bridge head that information straight after that.
00:36:52 straight after that. And when you say tell the bridge head, can you remember who you told at the bridge head? I think it might have been Glenn Williams, but I'm not 100% sure. Um, might ask Paul to bring up the
00:37:03 Um, might ask Paul to bring up the photograph that was at Met 15816.
00:37:19 Does this uh do these writings seem familiar to you? Have you seen them before?
00:37:25 before? Yeah, that's as you go into the uh front of the tower, it was on the wall on the left hand side. And if you see at the top right hand Yeah.
00:37:33 Yeah. Yeah. Did you Did you see anyone write that? I didn't see anyone write that at all. No, I just seen that later on when I had my second wear in the early hours of the morning, but I don't know who
00:37:44 of the morning, but I don't know who read that. Uh, when you came to give the information to Glenn Williams, um, can you explain the precise information you can communicated to him? It was, it was sort of very brief, very
00:37:55 It was, it was sort of very brief, very quick. Basically what the lady had said to me, flat 183, um a 12-year-old daughter, two dogs, uh 15th floor, and
00:38:07 uh 15th floor, and a male and a friend. And do you know how he recorded that information? I have no idea. No.
00:38:15 Um are you able to provide any further detail about the steps taken to rescue that lady's daughter? No.
00:38:23 No. Now, the um penultimate topic I'd like to discuss with you is your um second um entry back into the tower. And as I your evidence says that the EDBA crews,
00:38:35 evidence says that the EDBA crews, including yourself, were dispatched back into the tower. Um I'd be grateful if Paul could turn up the telemetry sheet, uh LFB quadruple 0315 and box 188.
00:38:50 Now again reading from left to right. Uh there's your name and then we have tally out at 5 minutes past 5. Uh does that sound right to you?
00:39:01 past 5. Uh does that sound right to you? No. Basically once we came out and did our first wear our sets we a tested them on the fire ground and our sets were taken away by other oncoming FIU crews who obviously use them. I didn't
00:39:13 who obviously use them. I didn't actually use my own set. I used a set later on from Peg. And um what task were you given on your second on your return to the tower? It was go up to floor 10 and 11 and to
00:39:27 It was go up to floor 10 and 11 and to fight the fire. Now, is it right that you found a deceased female on the stairwell between the 10th and the 11th floor? Yeah, that's correct. And
00:39:37 And had that had the body been there on your earlier descent down the tower? No, I didn't see any bodies on the way down. On your return to the tower, are you able to give us a time when you reached the 10th floor and saw the body?
00:39:50 reached the 10th floor and saw the body? I couldn't tell you at all, mate. Um, the final topic I'd like to discuss with you is the question of the Surrey turntable. And if I could ask you to turn to page nine of your witness statement and the top paragraph there,
00:40:03 statement and the top paragraph there, five lines down, I recall I recall seeing a larger turntable ladder attending Grenell Tower from Surrey Fire Service. We do not have a
00:40:14 Surrey Fire Service. We do not have a turntable ladder this large in London. The one from Surrey may been able to get close to the top of the tower. Um, as you far as sorry, as far as you are aware, is the large is the Surrey
00:40:26 aware, is the large is the Surrey turntable the nearest one to London? Again, that's an question I can't answer.
00:40:31 answer. Okay. Uh, do you know whether London has a a turntable uh the size of the Surrey one?
00:40:37 one? No.
00:40:39 No. Um, Mr. Roberts, thank you very much. Those are the questions that I have for you. Others may have more. Um, sir, might I ask you to rise for 10 minutes? Yes.
00:40:48 Yes. And I can collect any questions that may arise.
00:40:51 arise. Right. Well, Mr. Roberts, it may be that there are some more questions or maybe there won't. Yep.
00:40:55 Yep. And we're going to have a break now for 10 minutes and then if you would like to come back at 10 to 3. Yep.
00:41:01 3. Yep. We'll see if there are any more questions. Right. And please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out. Thank you very much. Right.
00:41:13 10 to three then please
00:50:08 All right. So, thank you
00:50:28 Yes. All right. Yeah. Fine. Good. Thank you. Mr. Roberts, just a few additional questions. Thank you for your patience. Um, first of all, just going back to um your time on the 22nd floor. You opened
00:50:39 your time on the 22nd floor. You opened the door between the stale and the lobby. As you opened that door, what did you shout, if anything? Again, it wasn't until I went inside I shouted at all. As I open the door, I
00:50:51 shouted at all. As I open the door, I didn't shout anything. Only once I went inside did I shout. Okay. Um, next, can I ask you about the locked gate at the roof? Um,
00:51:04 locked gate at the roof? Um, have you been on any 72D visits of high-rise buildings on your patch on Paddington's ground? Yes.
00:51:12 Yes. Yeah. Um, have you encountered situation in which the access to the roof is uh governed by locked gates or similar protection? Um, yeah, there generally seems to be
00:51:24 Um, yeah, there generally seems to be some sort of gated access. Obviously, that will stop any members of the public getting up onto the roof. It's there there there is generally some sort of lock or controlled access.
00:51:35 lock or controlled access. Is that a point you've noted and highlighted on 72D visits on your patch? Yeah, it's just something you pick up as you go around. Is it the type of information that you'd find on the MDT?
00:51:48 find on the MDT? Again, I don't use the MDT for looking up that sort of information. So, that'll be down to a crew manager or watch manager who's sat in that seat controlling the MDT. And what training
00:52:00 controlling the MDT. And what training do you receive to deal with respond to the smoke the type of smoky conditions you experienced at Grenell Tower on the on the 14th of June? It's just basically something that you
00:52:11 It's just basically something that you cover in your basic fire training at Suk.
00:52:15 Suk. Okay,
00:52:17 Okay, Mr. Roberts, those are all the questions I have for you. Thank you very much for your time today and your patience. Now, you can help me with one thing if you would, Mr. K, before Mr. Roberts goes, could we just look at his statement, page seven?
00:52:29 page seven? Sir, last line. Um, you asked him about this. This is first of flat 183 on the 15th floor. Is that correct?
00:52:40 that correct? So, yeah. Um, well, I think that was the evidence.
00:52:43 evidence. Has there been a transposition? Well, I think that's the evidence of Mr. Gillum and Mr. Roberts. Um, are you sure it's uh flat 183? Yeah, it's definitely 183. She was
00:52:54 Yeah, it's definitely 183. She was screaming 183 to me several times. I did ask her to clarify again what she said and she was saying 183. Okay. Um
00:53:02 Okay. Um I wasn't sure that was on the 15th floor that's all. I think that that might be a fair observation but I think the I think the evidence we've had from Mr. Gill and Mr. Roberts is it was flat 183.
00:53:14 Roberts is it was flat 183. All right. Well that's has as you recall it is it Mr. Roberts? Yeah that's definitely what she said flat 183 and she said 15. All right. Well there it is. Thank you very much. Thank you. Well, no more questions for you. So,
00:53:26 Well, no more questions for you. So, thank you very much for coming to give your evidence. You've come a long way, I think.
00:53:30 think. Yeah. North Wales. Well, thank you very much for taking the trouble to come so far. Thank you. You'd like to give the usher? That's fine. Thank you.
00:53:40 [clears throat]
00:53:44 Well, Mr. K, we've done rather well for We have done. Um, sir, I have an application to make on behalf of Mr. Millet. Um, tomorrow we have two
00:53:55 Millet. Um, tomorrow we have two witnesses, Mr. Paul Watson and Mr. Gareth Cook. Yes. And Mr. Millet's application is an invitation to uh ask you to start at half past 9 um simply because both witnesses cover a broad
00:54:06 because both witnesses cover a broad range of detailed issues and he'd be grateful for the additional half hour in which to cover those in order to um keep within the timetable. And I see he's sent you in to make the application.
00:54:17 application. He has.
00:54:19 He has. Well, [clears throat] I think g given the fact that there are two quite substantial witnesses, I think it would be right to start at half past 9 tomorrow.
00:54:27 tomorrow. I'm grateful, sir. [clears throat] And sir, that concludes today's business. Right. Thank you very much. Well, I'm afraid it's another early start tomorrow. Uh, but we'll get an early afternoon this afternoon. So, half past
00:54:39 afternoon this afternoon. So, half past 9 tomorrow, please. Thank you very much.