London Fire Brigade firefighters Stephen O'Donoghue and Martin Gillam describe rescue attempts inside Grenfell Tower, equipment failures, extreme heat, and desperate conditions on stairwells.
00:00:01 well good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing as you will see works been going on in the hearing um over the weekend you're all on stage now I hope
00:00:13 weekend you're all on stage now I hope it does actually improve the visibility and the audibility of the proceedings if you find any of the lighting or any other aspect of problem will you let me
00:00:25 other aspect of problem will you let me or one of my team know and we'll see what we can do to get it modified good yes sir good morning with your permission my call mr. Stephen O'Donoghue yes thank you
00:00:47 [Music]
00:00:55 yes
00:01:02 I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
00:01:12 truth thank you very much mr. Donnegan can you make sure you I think he may need to be a little closer to thee it's my claim no tell us they can't give you properly all
00:01:25 tell us they can't give you properly all right
00:01:25 right yes mister thanks it um would you please confirm your name my name is Steve oh don't hit them first of all thank you very much for coming along today to give
00:01:36 very much for coming along today to give evidence it's very much appreciated first of all with the procedural matters can you confirm that you provided a witness statement to the police I get and if you turn to the blue folder which
00:01:47 and if you turn to the blue folder which is immediately in front of you hopefully behind the first tab is a copy of that statement is that right correct and if you read its contents recently yes and
00:01:58 you read its contents recently yes and you confirm the contents are true I do and if you turn over in that file to the next tab hopefully you'll find the copy of the contemporaneous note you prepared
00:02:10 of the contemporaneous note you prepared it's a great book and have you read that document recent years yes and you confirm the contents of blacks often too true as well I do know are you content that those documents stand as your
00:02:21 that those documents stand as your evidence the inquiry yes mr. Donahue because you provided a statement and the contemporaneous note I'm not going to take you through each and every line of those documents I just
00:02:34 and every line of those documents I just want to draw out certain topics that arise in both of them now if my questions aren't clear that's my fault if they aren't clear simply say so and I'll rephrase it so I give you a clear
00:02:46 I'll rephrase it so I give you a clear question now at any stage if you require a break please say so and finally if you feel more comfortable giving evidence shirt sleeves that's absolutely fine and
00:02:58 shirt sleeves that's absolutely fine and please don't hesitate to take your jacket off thank you now first of all mr. Donohue may I deal with some basic facts first of all how long have you been the firefighter just over 20 years
00:03:09 been the firefighter just over 20 years and how long have you been at red watch at Chizik 12 years now the first topic I'd like to discuss with you is training in your practical experience and if I could ask you to
00:03:21 experience and if I could ask you to turn to your witness statement on the page 1 of that document and the third paragraph and third line which starts ongoing training and says ongoing
00:03:34 starts ongoing training and says ongoing training is a firefighter in the lfp consists of drills lectures and specific training in different areas including first-aid with regards to training for high-rise flats we have a training site at green dragon lane which has 5 blocks
00:03:46 at green dragon lane which has 5 blocks and 24 stories for us to practice in now first of all what lectures have you received in relation to high-rise fires after the Latin or house fire we did a
00:03:58 after the Latin or house fire we did a back-to-basics scheme where we wait I think it was Hillingdon Fire Station that we went to we did a practical session outside in how we should arrive
00:04:10 session outside in how we should arrive which equipment we should use to take up to the relevant not to the fire floor for two floors below after we did the practical we had a classroom session and
00:04:22 practical we had a classroom session and we were given information there to learn because after the Latin or house the procedures for high-rise policy note was changed and a policy was made can you
00:04:35 changed and a policy was made can you remember know what those changes were before we wouldn't go up with we'd go up to the fire floor and if needed be we would plug in with our 45 mil jet hose
00:04:47 would plug in with our 45 mil jet hose we wouldn't do it two floors below and that was the major change for our safety that we would plug in two floors below and
00:04:56 and how to extend to the fire floor and the fire flat have you had other lectures dealing with such phenomena as the Condor effect for example that that that was the first time I'd I've heard of
00:05:08 was the first time I'd I've heard of that where the wind up the side of a high-rise building can move around like this and take the fire a lot faster up the side of the building and if there's open windows with net curtains and other
00:05:21 open windows with net curtains and other materials that are combustible and it can not only go straight up sideways as well and when was the first time you'd heard of the commander then there yes had you had any lectures that
00:05:33 there yes had you had any lectures that deal with breach of compartment ation and how best to deal with it if there has been a breach as best as i as i can understand you would dynamically risk assess if the fire moved to another compartment you would dynamically risk
00:05:45 compartment you would dynamically risk assess it and put in place a plan to deal with that separate fire no it may well be people listening in how would you best define a dynamic risk assessment for people who are taking
00:05:56 assessment for people who are taking over the term taking in all the resources that you have do you have enough manpower is there enough trucks there and can you safely move to tackle the next fire and would your
00:06:09 the next fire and would your consideration of breach of compartment ation deal with such issues as when and how to affect a partial or total evacuation from a building no you've
00:06:20 evacuation from a building no you've mentioned a number of lectures over a number of topics that you've been provided with who tends to give those lectures to you should it usually it's done on and actually achievement rate
00:06:31 done on and actually achievement rate once we do our lectures on our night shifts Chris Churchill is our crew manager and he provides the lectures takes the lead now could I ask you to
00:06:43 takes the lead now could I ask you to turn to page 3 in your witness statement and it's the first substantive paragraph on that page and the fourth two-bit lines which start with the words however
00:06:58 [Music]
00:07:02 and it says however the flames this is when you attend it that are the flames appear to be white this made me think it was quite a hot fire with either chemicals or other substances burning
00:07:14 chemicals or other substances burning now what training did you receive as to how different chemicals and other substances performed when on fact at basic training at Southern College the
00:07:25 basic training at Southern College the first three months they would use stuff like Bunsen burners to show the different flame effects and the different heat and help your the the
00:07:36 different heat and help your the the fuel was we're also going go back to school science lectures when they burn magnesium that burn white-hot and sparkled that kind of history so playing
00:07:52 sparkled that kind of history so playing a part and what I've written there had you received any training on the particular risk posed by exterior cladding for itself no certainly had you
00:08:04 cladding for itself no certainly had you received any training on the materials that could be contained within exterior cladding and how they reacted to fire I don't believe so given your assessment on arriving at the
00:08:16 given your assessment on arriving at the tower that chemicals are some other substances were involved what affected that view have on first of all your assessment of whether the fire at the tower could be extinguished or contained
00:08:27 tower could be extinguished or contained I was very worried I was very worried that it couldn't be conducted when when I seen the ferocity and the size of it I so first turned up on the side of the building and was that view that you
00:08:40 building and was that view that you passed on to others in my own personal view an opinion and when you attended other did other people express similar concerns along the lines you've just set
00:08:51 concerns along the lines you've just set out yes with shall we say different language yes more robust yet end of the
00:09:02 language yes more robust yet end of the Anglo Saxon range now given your you vers chemicals rather substances may be involved what view did you take as to the need for the evacuation of residents
00:09:13 the need for the evacuation of residents when you attend it the tower that would not be my decision although it may not have been your decision did you have your own on the base of your own
00:09:24 your own on the base of your own experience former view as to when and whether it would be necessary to evaluate as the as the fire went on as the incident continued my own personal opinion was
00:09:37 continued my own personal opinion was that yes I think in this case where we just used to fight in one compartment fire in a tower block when I realized and seen the ferocity in the speed that
00:09:49 and seen the ferocity in the speed that it did cross my mind that our tactical with withdrawal or a phased evacuation could be a good thing on the basis of knowing the conditions inside though and
00:10:00 knowing the conditions inside though and how would you conduct a phased evacuation how would you run this I wouldn't I wouldn't personally know how to go about it how could you possibly contact a
00:10:11 it how could you possibly contact a feature on doors in your in your career thus far had you ever had the need to effect a partial total evacuation of a high-rise building not not to my
00:10:24 high-rise building not not to my knowledge and mr. Donohue may now ask you questions about green dragon lane yes now will your drills for high-rise fires only take place at green dragon
00:10:36 fires only take place at green dragon lane or do they take place somewhere else as well well we've done it at Acton fire station and in the last year I think it was another back to basics with group manager being more in charge again
00:10:49 group manager being more in charge again with the physical side first in questions after but it's only been once at Green Dragon mind that did we go and and it was at walkthrough speed but with
00:11:00 and it was at walkthrough speed but with the same Brigade attendance that would normally turn up at fire and am i right in thinking that green dragon lane is in fact a housing estate as opposed to a
00:11:11 fact a housing estate as opposed to a dedicated training site for a noxious and you say there are five blocks and 24 stories for you to practice in do you mean that each block has 24 stories yes sir
00:11:21 sir and as each and in terms of escape routes are they very similar to Grantville tower ie a single stairway yes it's larger it's wider and two lifts one for odd
00:11:34 it's wider and two lifts one for odd number flats one for even number flats and do any of the towers have external cladding well they look like they were built in the 60s or 70s and it looks
00:11:46 built in the 60s or 70s and it looks like concrete outside with kind of stone pebble - I wouldn't know what was behind that exterior and you mentioned you'd
00:11:58 that exterior and you mentioned you'd only be in such green dragon lane once I've been there many times very once for a drill this is a talking thing talking about drills the drill you carried out there did it assume a breach of complementation or no no it was just one
00:12:10 complementation or no no it was just one one fire in one flat and it was contained within that well and did the drill include any consideration of
00:12:22 drill include any consideration of evacuation not to my knowledge it was just a practical side of the fire fighting getting the right equipment at the right time and was there a search-and-rescue element to the drill
00:12:33 search-and-rescue element to the drill I can't remember if it wasn't on the fire floor I believe I was downstairs in the the fire movie now the next
00:12:44 the the fire movie now the next topic I'd like to turn to is the topic of section 72 D visits okay have you carried out any such visits to the green dragon lane state yes and what did they
00:12:57 dragon lane state yes and what did they entail what were you looking for on each occasion and not on each occasion but what generally were you looking for I've been in the Java said 20 years when I
00:13:08 been in the Java said 20 years when I first started doing seven 2d visits we would check times and dates of the firefighting media extinguishers hose
00:13:20 firefighting media extinguishers hose reels we would check dates on stuff like that but now I went well I've done about 70 D at Brito green dragon lane it was
00:13:32 70 D at Brito green dragon lane it was more a familiarization to the layout for for us to understand if we did have a fire we've had a better understanding of all of the layout however we deal with
00:13:44 all of the layout however we deal with it where the dry Rises is where where the hydrants are also one of the I can't quite remember the name but they now have plates and rejected lane was was
00:13:59 have plates and rejected lane was was one of the first places to have plates on the outside of the name I can't remember the only new but it's information for the firefighters and the officers in charge layouts where the
00:14:11 officers in charge layouts where the where the stairs are the rescue stairs and and fire fire media and lift did they have any information such as evacuation plans that you identify not
00:14:23 evacuation plans that you identify not to my knowledge Paul might ask you to turn a policy 633 which I think the references and he has a almost by magic that first of all are
00:14:34 a almost by magic that first of all are you familiar with policy 633 I think we have done it in a letter and you may recall appendix warm which sets out a number of points relevant to
00:14:49 sets out a number of points relevant to section 72 D visits now first of all have you seen this particular appendix before I can't remember sir now when you
00:15:00 before I can't remember sir now when you went on section 72 D visits would you use a document such as that this or a similar document is a checklist of things to look for me personally I the
00:15:11 things to look for me personally I the officer in charge of the crew manager would have the paperwork we would just I will be just told to go and check a specific thing how regularly were section 72 D visits carried out at green
00:15:23 section 72 D visits carried out at green dragon lane in Safari to can't answer that Oh mr. Donohue the next topic I want to turn to now as the night itself your mobilization and your journey
00:15:35 your mobilization and your journey towards the tower yeah now it's a matter of record that you were mobilized at 126 on the road of 130 and arrived at the tower at 139 does that seem right to you
00:15:46 tower at 139 does that seem right to you that's him right if I can ask you to turn to page three of your statement and the first substantive paragraph first line which reads due to heavy traffic in
00:15:57 line which reads due to heavy traffic in the area we have to park up about 200 250 meters away which is about a road and a half from Granville Tower now could I ask Paul to put up on the screens met triple zero one three zero
00:16:12 screens met triple zero one three zero seven eight [Music]
00:16:20 now if we're able to magnify that somewhat
00:16:31 looking at that map now mr. Donahue are you able to assist us by identifying on the large screen where you remember parking up now sir no you go on
00:16:45 parking up now sir no you go on in the second substantive paragraph back in your statement to say we parked next to a fire hydrant can you remember where that hydrant was I can't remember the
00:16:56 that hydrant was I can't remember the name of the road no okay do you remember where the hydrant was it was on the corner on the corner of the road here did you encounter any problems or preysing that
00:17:07 encounter any problems or preysing that - no the hydrant Keon bar and hydrant itself had been opened and the hydrant had been shipped ie the hydrant had been put in it was just waiting to be turned on I mean you don't
00:17:20 waiting to be turned on I mean you don't do that until commanded if I may ask you to go back to your witness statement page three and the second paragraph
00:17:31 page three and the second paragraph fifth line where it says the fire seemed to be thicker towards the bottom at around the third floor level and I assume this was where the fire had started the fire reminded me of a roman
00:17:42 started the fire reminded me of a roman candle there's about two windows width wide and six storeys high now given the width and height the fire what did that say to you about compartment ation little Bane gone into
00:17:57 compartment ation little Bane gone into every single flat above the the initial fire oh the initial fire flat or compartment weather fire come out of that's what it suggested to me when you
00:18:08 that's what it suggested to me when you went to the bridge head did you pass on that view to anyone no did anyone ask you what was happening on the outside could ask it turn to page four of your
00:18:21 could ask it turn to page four of your witness statement and it's the first line of the first substantive paragraph on that page at this stage the bridgehead was on the first floor and
00:18:33 bridgehead was on the first floor and been operated by colleague I know I know as Paul Watson from Hammersmith Fire Station now could i ah spalled put up on the screens the L FPS operational response report oh it is l FP quadruple
00:18:47 response report oh it is l FP quadruple zero one nine one four underscore eighty nine mr. Donaghy you'll see at the top
00:18:59 nine mr. Donaghy you'll see at the top of that page in the entry zero 158 double zero and it says firefighter doubt and firefighter Donahue from
00:19:10 doubt and firefighter Donahue from physic golf threesome launches it's pump Mader enter the main entrance and proceed to make an entry into the community room on the ground floor level does that sound about the right time yes
00:19:22 does that sound about the right time yes and so in broad terms you entered the tower roughly half an hour after arriving yes now you mentioned that mr.
00:19:33 arriving yes now you mentioned that mr. Watson was operating the bridgehead what do you mean by operating in this context well mr. Watson Paul Watson is a watch manager and you would have a watch
00:19:44 manager and you would have a watch manager high-ranking officer running the bridgehead and delegating jobs telling which firefighter with what floor to go
00:19:55 which firefighter with what floor to go for to go to before starting up in their ba did you understand them to be in command of the bridgehead at that moment at the time he was the only white helmet I could say and did you see any FSG
00:20:09 I could say and did you see any FSG calls being recorded on the walls boards or any other surface no did you overhear or
00:20:17 or nurse how details of Etta FSG calls were being briefed by those operating the bridgehead to those crews who have been deployed into the tower I didn't overhear or source in any
00:20:32 I didn't overhear or source in any briefings though my brief when I got to the woman me Trish we got to the front of the line we were detailed there are our job and was an FSG cool and what were you told
00:20:45 was an FSG cool and what were you told we were told Porton spoke to my interest shows and said this is an FSG call for flat 95 on the 12th floor that's what
00:20:58 flat 95 on the 12th floor that's what I'm detailing you went where for you to go to we told how many residents were within that flat no but subsequently I think I'm right in saying it it was one
00:21:09 think I'm right in saying it it was one adult one child 100% but can you remember whether at the time you were told that those a child in with now you can't remember or you weren't told I don't think I was told back did you see
00:21:23 don't think I was told back did you see any firefighters carrying extended duration breathing apparatus this time now
00:21:33 could I ask you to turn back to page four of your witness statement and the first substantive paragraph at the top of the page and the second line I think the statement describes your colleague
00:21:45 the statement describes your colleague as Tristian I think is named Tristan Tristan Haman whilst Tristan and I were in the queue we noticed some colleagues maneuver in a 13 point 5 meter ladder on the outside of the building we were near
00:21:56 the outside of the building we were near the back of the queue and so Tristan and I left it thinking we could help maneuver the ladder because we might be needed as BA whereas during any subsequent rescue on the ladder initially we tried to use the ladder whilst it's on ground level however it
00:22:09 whilst it's on ground level however it did not reach as high as it needed to go so we lift the ladder up onto the walkway near the entrance it turned out that BA wearers weren't required so we rejoined the queue leading to the bridge head now asking a blunt question first
00:22:22 head now asking a blunt question first mr. Donohue is it normal to break off from a queue and go off and do another task for that actually you know an equally blunt question why did you do it and I thought I could help if I was to
00:22:36 and I thought I could help if I was to start up ba and the ladder was going into second or third floor window there was smoke I'd be there to help rather than have to call someone else I took that completely on on my shoulders and made that decision and did you think the
00:22:48 made that decision and did you think the ladder was part and parcel of a rescue and ongoing rescue effort no had you seen any issues arising out of the
00:23:01 seen any issues arising out of the positioning of the ladder itself which instigated John once once the the ladder was was moved in we said whis we told the team carrying we were here to help if you need your BA at the top two of
00:23:13 if you need your BA at the top two of them disappeared I wasn't sure what their plan was but we had to halt the one three five ladder up onto them onto the mezzanine floor which we've never done before and did members of the
00:23:24 done before and did members of the public help you in that task I don't believe that there was members in the public around were you given any information as to particular people who may be in the tower front members of the
00:23:35 may be in the tower front members of the public nearby whilst you're maneuvering the ladder me know
00:23:40 me know colleagues up on the mezzanine floor I believe one of them was will Murphy from Ely
00:23:46 Ely he may have gotten information off the public up there but as far as me and Trish were concerned once we did once we told the letter loft we thought our job was done and we join the line is he
00:23:58 was done and we join the line is he because he was moving up the steps and so you didn't see a rescue being effected or completed no but subsequently I do believe that will deed rescue some people and when you got back to the bridgehead did you update them on
00:24:10 to the bridgehead did you update them on what you've seen and the you essentially helped put a ladder up to effect arrest now again territory on now the next topic I want to turn to is the FSG a
00:24:21 topic I want to turn to is the FSG a respective flat 95 on the 12th floor they said and if I could ask you to turn to page four of your witness statement and the second substantive paragraph on that line it says once at the bridgehead
00:24:36 that line it says once at the bridgehead we were tasked to go to flats 95 which on the 12th floor as the lfb had received a fire survival guidance call from the address now we've spoken about the subject matter of the briefing that
00:24:47 the subject matter of the briefing that you were given could I ask Paul to put up on the screen met triple zero one five six to nine underscore double zero war now if I might ask Paul to magnify
00:25:03 war now if I might ask Paul to magnify the bit of this image where you can see 12 and 95 roughly midway down the photograph
00:25:11 [Music]
00:25:16 mr. Dante first question is do you remember seeing this writing on a wall at or near the bridgehead before you went up no are you able to assist us
00:25:27 went up no are you able to assist us with any of the information which is set out next to the numbers 12 and 9512 floor flat 95 which seems obvious I can't make out the rest so I think I
00:25:39 I can't make out the rest so I think I can help you are you able to assist us with what the ticks might mean maybe that they're helping a BA team assigned to go and fulfill that rescue yeah maybe
00:25:52 to go and fulfill that rescue yeah maybe you can't say for sure contact sharing now if I can ask you turn to you again the second substantive paragraph of your witness statement in the third line from the bottom you say once we got on to the
00:26:06 the bottom you say once we got on to the third floor the stairwells smoke locked to the extent that I couldn't see my own hand in front of my face the stairwell itself was only about three foot wide first of all can you remember what color
00:26:17 first of all can you remember what color was the smoke you encountered at that stage as we started up on shall we say the first floor it was gray gray and wispy and progressively got darker on
00:26:29 wispy and progressively got darker on some of the floors as we progressed up the emergency lighting wasn't working and that made that made the area even darker but it was it was as if it was
00:26:40 darker but it was it was as if it was we've had moments of clock not clarity but gray smoke that wasn't on the lower floors as we got up it was more consistently dark black that's very
00:26:52 consistently dark black that's very thick up looking at the smoke conditions you encountered as you went up from the bridge head to the third floor yeah is that part of your journey was the smoke
00:27:03 that part of your journey was the smoke wispy gray and then darkening how would you describe it wispy wispy right and how thick was it at that state sometimes I could see tissue in my be a partner sometimes I
00:27:16 tissue in my be a partner sometimes I couldn't sometimes I could I could see my lamp would hit the wall sometimes hidden and how hot was the stair world on the third floor third
00:27:28 stair world on the third floor third floor it was because of all the training of fires I mean it was it was bearable and can you remember whether the door between the stairwell and the third floor lobby was open or closed at the
00:27:40 floor lobby was open or closed at the time I on my journey inside the tower I only remember feet I'm not sure what floor it was on because maybe the ninth
00:27:51 floor it was on because maybe the ninth that one one of the doors was wedged open with the Halligan bar to my knowledge even though sometimes I couldn't see I I assumed the doors were closed dealing with that door that was
00:28:03 closed dealing with that door that was kept open we may come on to it later how practical would it have been to have removed that bar thereby closing the door between the stairwell I had no idea why it was that if there was a be a team
00:28:16 why it was that if there was a be a team that wanted if there was slight light from the lobby because they were going into where the front doors were to effect rescues if it would if it was there to help them come out so I didn't
00:28:27 there to help them come out so I didn't remove it do you remember at that stage around the area of the third floor stairwell was there any equipment or other firefighting equipment on the stairwell itself
00:28:38 stairwell itself yes sir up my feet was bumping into and into equipment Yubel to give us an idea of what equipment your feet felt like hoses felt like branches I think one was another
00:28:50 like branches I think one was another Halligan bar because of the metal clanging sound are able to give us an idea of the quantity of equipment that you encountered on the stairwell it depended short some flaws gente oh I could have missed
00:29:04 some flaws gente oh I could have missed it you know I walked by it it was different age for now as you went further up tower you came to the fourth and fifth floor and if I could ask you to look at the third substantive
00:29:16 to look at the third substantive paragraph on page where you say by the stage of the fourth and fifth floor the conditions at this state were very dark and hot smoke in the stairway range from
00:29:27 and hot smoke in the stairway range from wispy to dark black and there was a lot of shouting which was acquired by firefighters to make themselves heard now where you say smoke range from wispy to dark black can you help us to describe where on that stairwell between
00:29:39 describe where on that stairwell between the fourth and fifth floors the smoke was wispy and where it was dark black it changed it was it was ongoing it was it was moving it was could you see where the smoke was coming from now no again
00:29:52 the smoke was coming from now no again do you remember whether the door between the stairwell and the fourth floor lobby was open or closed I can't remember and I assumed it was closed and again do you
00:30:03 I assumed it was closed and again do you remember any firefighting equipment in the stairwell on the fourth floor I couldn't say for sure could ask you turn over the page to page five of your witness statement and the first substantive paragraph the first four
00:30:15 substantive paragraph the first four lines at around the sixth floor we encountered a male firefighter coming down holding a baby with his own breathing mask over the baby's face I remember thinking good luck mate and hurry up I know what the heat and
00:30:27 hurry up I know what the heat and particulates you'll end up breathing in can do to you at this stage the lighting the stair warmers out and the arrow has only been illuminated from below now in relation to that passage the breathing
00:30:40 relation to that passage the breathing mask over the baby's face would be a cruise as a matter of course carries spare masks with them aren't enactment how practicable is it for a boa
00:30:52 how practicable is it for a boa wearer to carry a spare mask with him or her it could be done in terms of lighting in the stairwell how intense was the light coming from below
00:31:03 below oh very very very small very light and can you remember whether any of the lighting in the stairwell above the sixth floor was working or not who my recollection it was it was not working
00:31:15 recollection it was it was not working other six okay can you remember on which floor the lighting stopped working I take the fifth of six
00:31:24 now staying in that same paragraph eight lines from the bottom the sentence which starts the conditions in the stairwell were very were very hot and it got
00:31:36 were very were very hot and it got hotter as we ascended on every floor we were opened the door into the lobby area to see if there were any casualties and the lobby areas were hotter than the stairs now as you send it from the sixth
00:31:48 stairs now as you send it from the sixth floor rough words can you describe the smoke conditions as you went yeah non-master gates now incremental increases in thickness of black smoke is
00:32:00 increases in thickness of black smoke is no longer whisper no longer no longer gray it was it was completely can't see your hand in front of your face and again can you describe for us the temperature as you went from the sixth
00:32:12 temperature as you went from the sixth floor of the time it just kept increasing when you were going up each stairwell did you open the door between the stair on each Lobby on each floor
00:32:24 the stair on each Lobby on each floor but I think was on each floor we did it three times just in case because the smoke was so thick may be casualties residents who tried to come out and if
00:32:36 residents who tried to come out and if they'd fallen because of the breathing in it if they were just there we could effect a rescue even though we knew our plan drew was to go to the 12th but when you open the door yeah
00:32:47 you open the door yeah and looked into each lobby can you talk us through what you did on each and every occasion just open the door looked in felt the blast of hot air shouted
00:32:58 shouted with no response at that's as far as we took it and stopping there what did you shout hello anybody there now at this stage you've got a mask on yeah how loud
00:33:10 stage you've got a mask on yeah how loud are you shouting okay now one of the
00:33:25 are you shouting okay now one of the questions that arises is when you open the door to each line were you able to go into the lobby and check on each of the flat doors today yeah no because
00:33:36 the flat doors today yeah no because that wasn't our directive we were we were doing that as just an extra thing to see if we could find casualties you said you carried out that task on you thought three floors as you went
00:33:47 thought three floors as you went youngish what he wasn't there before what particular about those three floors caused you to open the doors check that we were on our own and that we weren't being passed by other ba teams and that
00:33:59 being passed by other ba teams and that we had time to do it when other ba teams are coming past you your concentration is with them so when my interest we're on a Warner floor with the lobby door for why not and how long how much time
00:34:13 for why not and how long how much time can you remember now did you spend checking those three lobbies that you did seconds now again in the same paragraph you say some of the doors have
00:34:25 paragraph you say some of the doors have been blocked opened by discarded equipment which is letting smoke in I would say that the temperature on the stairs was around 200 degrees Fahrenheit as we went up it was getting hotter and darker now you say some of the doors to
00:34:37 darker now you say some of the doors to be clear we're talking about the doors between the sterile and the lobbyists is that right 90s yeah again could you tell where the smoke was coming from the foot no now I couldn't again a question
00:34:51 no now I couldn't again a question that's arisen is why wouldn't you remove equipment that was popping open doors is it for the reason you gave early here because of the reason going on here as
00:35:04 because of the reason going on here as you were going up from the sixth floor up were you able to make out any numbers on the walls I know that was that was that was the strange thing on the on the
00:35:15 that was the strange thing on the on the lower floors where the emergency lighting was working I could see I could see on the walls numbers but then on other floors even like up to five or six
00:35:28 other floors even like up to five or six there was no numbers so I was assuming that on though there was it was it was strange had numbers on some flaws and not on others how're you keeping counter the floors you were on could I ask you
00:35:47 the floors you were on could I ask you to turn to the penultimate paragraph on page five for your statement and it says this on the ninth floor we checked the amount of air we had on our gauges I was reading ninety bars and Tristan was reading about 120 bars we both started
00:35:59 reading about 120 bars we both started on around 280 bars at rest of ba would probably last around 40 minutes however as we were exerting ourselves by climbing up stairs carrying equipment both on our backs and in our arms with
00:36:10 both on our backs and in our arms with the adrenaline pumping we're using a for air quite quickly despite this we carried up at this stage were you able to judge given how much air you'd
00:36:23 to judge given how much air you'd consumed how much time you had left under air left you when when the BA said if you're not working very hard if it gets to a some full bar the emergency
00:36:34 gets to a some full bar the emergency whistle and electronic whistle we'll go off they tell you you have 12 minutes left when that happens which to me as there wasn't a lot of too much
00:36:46 me as there wasn't a lot of too much obstacles to get out I think I would have been okay so until that until that went off I wouldn't like which you shouldn't in improper procedure you should be out before your low pressure
00:36:58 should be out before your low pressure warning whistle goes off but in meet these incredible circumstances we're going to carry on and as she went up the tur did you keep the bridgehead informed of your progress over the radio we tried
00:37:10 of your progress over the radio we tried but no communications would get through can you remember when the radio communications stopped working when you could no I don't think is that they
00:37:21 could no I don't think is that they stopped working I think it was that we were getting cut off there were so many people trying to send message easily if once you press the button and you were talking then someone else would press
00:37:33 talking then someone else would press upon your message wouldn't get through or be stopped so as you think that what's happening that there were so many people trying to do communications but none we're getting through as you're going up is it right to say them that
00:37:45 going up is it right to say them that you're actually hearing radio traffic just bits and pieces breaking up were you able to hear incoming FSGS no any deep man looking at the bottom of
00:38:04 no any deep man looking at the bottom of page five of your statement just the paragraph which starts as we got to the 11th floor it reads this as we got to the 11th floor us or Tristan walk into a
00:38:16 the 11th floor us or Tristan walk into a man and a woman carrying towels with that I closed I've shouted to Tristan Tristan get them almost immediately I've also walked into a female child with brown hair who might say was about 11 years old wearing a white top with long
00:38:28 years old wearing a white top with long sleeves and jeans I grabbed the girl and told Tristan to grab the adults the conditions at this stage were very hot with thick smoke limiting visibility although we'd been told to go to the 12th floor
00:38:39 12th floor I decided we need to save them and if we didn't the name the people in fact 95 would die we're as we could at least save these three people now you've mentioned earlier at the temperature on
00:38:51 mentioned earlier at the temperature on the stairs was around 200 degrees fahrenheit in your in your estimate and the top of page six the conditions at the stage were very hot was it obviously hotter in or about the 11th floor than had been below the 11th yessir was the
00:39:05 had been below the 11th yessir was the smoke dense so much the same it was it was denser and again what color was the smoke black again just to try and get
00:39:16 smoke black again just to try and get some D's on this could you see where the smoke was coming from no sir
00:39:23 now turning to the family that you encounter of individuals that you encountered can you remember whether there's a child on the adult males back or not I don't
00:39:35 on the adult males back or not I don't believe so
00:39:38 were the adults you helped to go down the tower were they able to do it under their own steam or did your Tristan have to help that as we as we came to the
00:39:49 to help that as we as we came to the adults the girl and it was like it was like just a small moment of clarity within the black smoke to see their faces and we couldn't believe that we'd
00:40:00 faces and we couldn't believe that we'd come across them in the smoke as I said I show it to Trish her to get the adults obviously the more vulnerable person being the child so I just immediately
00:40:12 being the child so I just immediately dropped my equipment which was a hose and a branched to the right grab the child up onto my hip my left hand on the inside rail shout attrition I've got the
00:40:23 inside rail shout attrition I've got the child you get the adults I thought being a child I feel more vulnerable I have to get down fast and I knew that would break our be a team up but I wanted to get the child down as fast
00:40:34 get the child down as fast as you are going can you remember which fall the condition starts to get less smoky and less hot probably about four
00:40:43 can you remember the time at which you reach the bridgehead again well the to my recollection it was
00:40:54 well the to my recollection it was strange because the the bridgehead was is said to have been moved from from where we went in it was now higher up and where to do encounter as he went down I think it was the third and what
00:41:05 down I think it was the third and what we could what were the conditions like on the third floor that was still there was still we should be smoked down there and it surprised we don't to come across
00:41:16 and it surprised we don't to come across it it couldn't radio communications hadn't work no ones have got through to us that you know the bridge had been moved and when you decide it you you're going to take the group of individuals
00:41:29 going to take the group of individuals down the tower were you able to radio the bridgehead to tell them this is what you were doing and effectively were breaking off the night I tried once and that was it I didn't try again because we get out unsuccessful in our
00:41:41 we get out unsuccessful in our communications beforehand I didn't see why it would work this summer I did try could ask Paul to turn up the telemetry data which i think is a tell FB quadruple zero three double one five
00:41:58 and Paul could ask you to magnify box 77 zero
00:42:04 zero [Music]
00:42:12 or rather the boxes around 70 I should say
00:42:17 [Music] now you'll see a box 70 reading a cross from left to right Chyzyk Dowd Tristan and at the far right you got tally out
00:42:31 and at the far right you got tally out at 0 to 20 if you look at the box immediately above mm-hmm you'll see named Karl al-sharif now is Karl sharif based of Chyzyk he is he's on the play
00:42:43 based of Chyzyk he is he's on the play watch will you Tristan's only partner that EVs awareness is it possible that the BA equipment has identified the wrong person there yes and if I could
00:42:54 wrong person there yes and if I could ask Paul if you could extend the scope of the Excel spreadsheet so we can see the end of where time for box is 69 and 70
00:43:10 and on the assumption that you are Carl algebra you'll see a time I think reading across Oh to 40 36 and Tristan
00:43:24 reading across Oh to 40 36 and Tristan Oh to 41 does that sound about right to you I write could I now ask you about once you've got back to the bridgehead
00:43:35 once you've got back to the bridgehead now if I ask you to turn to page 6 of your witness statement the first substantive paragraph and four lines up from the end it says we had formed the female officer Manning the bridgehead
00:43:48 female officer Manning the bridgehead that we had carried out a rescue but we hadn't been able to get to that 9 to 5 I'm not sure what she did with this information I also informed governor's that were around to single by their white helmets and put the message over
00:43:59 white helmets and put the message over the radio channel can you remember whether the female officer recorded the result of this rescue I believe she wrote down on a piece of paper and I've consulted with
00:44:12 piece of paper and I've consulted with my colleague Tristan on this and he 100% agrees with me that she did we know who she was she was yes she was the watch manager from Chelsea a copy yes and you
00:44:25 manager from Chelsea a copy yes and you know what she did with that bit of paper I don't know what she did with that paper but as you can imagine the worry over the rest of the incident and and
00:44:36 over the rest of the incident and and weeks later that our jobs back to the nineties back to the 12th floor wasn't fulfilled whilst giving my statement the police officer looked into it into it
00:44:47 police officer looked into it into it and assured me that the people from flat 12 had been rescued that's a great relief and although I assume the information that we passed to a was passed on because a rescue happened and
00:45:00 passed on because a rescue happened and we've given any further orders by the silver not that I can remember did you report any the the conditions you'd encountered as you've gone up to the tower
00:45:11 the tower I don't believe certainly going back to some more general question about conditions can you describe the effects on hearing while you're wearing the BA
00:45:23 on hearing while you're wearing the BA equipment essentially how easy is it to hear you can hear the actual breathing mask itself doesn't cover your ears but you have a flashes if there was a flash
00:45:35 you have a flashes if there was a flash of to cover any exposed skin so it's a piece of cotton cloth yeah so it's just the cloth over the years so you're
00:45:46 the cloth over the years so you're you're hearing is impeded but not so much that not so much that it it makes such a difference so you don't feel it impedes your analyses are here now
00:45:57 impedes your analyses are here now people calling out for assistance no can I ask you to turn to page seven of your witness statements in the first paragraph penultimate line which says
00:46:09 paragraph penultimate line which says Tristan and I discussed what we should do next
00:46:12 do next besides set up a casualty handling area near the tower now did you seek out any la s that's London Ambulance Service
00:46:23 la s that's London Ambulance Service stuff before setting up their handling area no and it's something that honour on a normal if there ever is a normal fire was something that would be set up
00:46:36 fire was something that would be set up I hadn't seen anything set up close to the tower on this side that we broke out of and I thought that was the next best thing
00:46:44 thing not that I was told to do it by an officer for just 20 years experience to do it it was later on once we set up as you're handing air with IOC packs and water and salvaged
00:46:56 with IOC packs and water and salvaged she that the LA s because we were about we were probably only 50 meters away from the tower we had some protection from about a 12 foot wall but then but then that area
00:47:07 foot wall but then but then that area then became the it was like a triage for the ambulance and I'm afraid also at the story was it was an area for the body bags before you set up the the handling
00:47:20 bags before you set up the the handling area yes did you try and identify a suitably senior Elias officer who you could double-check that not something that you do know and did you consider
00:47:31 that you do know and did you consider contacting the command unit to say what you were doing maybe I should have done but no I just got I just got on with it did you we were able to identify any
00:47:44 did you we were able to identify any emergency medical services around the base of not know you take base of the tower
00:47:51 tower I was only able one side one side now can I ask you about the ventilation system and ask you to turn to page nine of your statement it's the first substantive paragraph on that page the
00:48:04 substantive paragraph on that page the third line the smoke management system obviously wasn't working as in the stairwell as I couldn't see my hand in front of my face due to the thickness of the smoke were you aware of the
00:48:19 the smoke were you aware of the ventilation system working at any time during your time litter no sir mr. Donahue there's some further matters which I've been seven ask to ask if if
00:48:30 which I've been seven ask to ask if if that's all right one resident at the tower remembers helping a firefighter moving a ladder onto the walkway okay do you remember a slim vme male
00:48:43 do you remember a slim vme male individual helping anyone with a ladder no sir
00:48:50 when you are maneuvering the ladder going back to that point did you feel that there were insufficient number of firefighters there for the task at that time now I didn't and why did what did
00:49:01 time now I didn't and why did what did you think I believe when we came when we came out of Burma Chyzyk fire station on the call on the radio I heard make pumps ten halfway there towards Shepherds Bush
00:49:12 ten halfway there towards Shepherds Bush I heard make pumps twenty five and then as we arrived there just before we got off the machine I heard make pumps 40 which is a lot of staff that's going to
00:49:23 which is a lot of staff that's going to be there so at that time then once the instant moved on and as you say the maneuvering of the ladder and the amount of Bo whereas I could actually see when I when I came out after having my BA
00:49:36 I when I came out after having my BA where I thought at the time there was enough resources but obviously on the benefit of your experience of two decades plus would it be practical to use ladders to affect more rescues
00:49:49 use ladders to affect more rescues during the course only up to as high as they can go because the one one three five ladder will only go up as its name suggests thirteen point five meters are nine meter ladder goes up to nine meters
00:50:00 nine meter ladder goes up to nine meters yeah mr. Donahue I've only got probably about five more minutes worth of questions or you content for me to go through that five minutes yes there are chairs permission we can take a break
00:50:11 chairs permission we can take a break now mr. chairman yes thank you another resident on the night of the fire here sister firefighter moving a ladder onto the walkway again do you
00:50:22 ladder onto the walkway again do you remember seeing us a second slim VME man oh I doubt it now could ask you to turn back to page eight of your witness statement and the third substantive
00:50:34 statement and the third substantive paragraph on that page the first sentence which says the gas board has arrived as they had to turn off the gas supply to the towers blue fires were happening in the flats from where gas
00:50:46 happening in the flats from where gas pipes at first the gas board had about eight tenders including JCB's to dig up the road and turn off the gas first of all can you member what time the gate I would say this is in the
00:50:59 the gate I would say this is in the afternoon I would say roughly it is maybe 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon what are blue fires what we could see on
00:51:11 what are blue fires what we could see on the building the building was now charred and black but they was there was blue flame as you would get as I mentioned early from the Bunsen burner it was blue flame coming from by the
00:51:23 it was blue flame coming from by the left-hand side where the gas intake I guess the pipe going up in the building had burst a certain areas and that was that was quite visible did you see any of the blue firs yourself only only on
00:51:34 of the blue firs yourself only only on the outside and can you remember where they were located it seems it seemed to be at the apex of the corner oh I was sailing about three floors which floors
00:51:46 sailing about three floors which floors human burner I mean above the middle okay do you know what steps have been taken to shut off the gas supply before the gas board attendant thanks and I'm
00:52:00 looking at the second sentence there them are you able to explain what tenders you saw JCB's transit bands other transit bands and maybe a flatbed
00:52:13 other transit bands and maybe a flatbed lorry
00:52:15 lorry can I just get back to one point just to clarify it matter you mentioned early on your evidence there's a halogen bar locking a door yes that on the third or the ninth floor can you lose the ninth
00:52:26 the ninth floor can you lose the ninth the ninth thank you sir that might be a convenient moment for a brake service your permission sir yes have you got more questions for my god many questions but it might be there might be some all emerge yes right mr.
00:52:38 might be some all emerge yes right mr. Donaghy we're gonna have a short break now ten minutes to say Keith don't talk to a known about your evidence during the break I'm gonna ask you to come back at ten at ten o'clock no 11 o'clock
00:52:50 at ten at ten o'clock no 11 o'clock sorry come back to learn the talk we'll see if there any more questions at that home in on a highway thank you so much you like to give the option
00:53:04 [Music]
00:53:12 right we'll break that until 11 o'clock
00:53:24 you
01:02:25 [Music]
01:02:33 yes mr. Chen Thank You mr. clear mr. Donaghy thank you very much for your patience just have one question for you the error in relation to the telemetry data where you appear to be mr.
01:02:45 data where you appear to be mr. al-sharif in the data sheet are you able to explain the error or provide some possible explanations for yes often after you test your set you have a logbook that you you have to sign to say
01:02:56 logbook that you you have to sign to say that you tested your set for some reason being distracted I haven't signed that book and it was the previous wearer's name still in it thank you very much mr.
01:03:07 name still in it thank you very much mr. O'Donoghue thank you very much for coming today to answer my questions thank you sir Thank You Sara mr. Donahue that's all we've got for you thank you very much indeed for coming to give your evidence it is really helpful for us to know about your experience inside the
01:03:20 know about your experience inside the tower very grateful thank you very much thank you very much mr. chairman right if you'd like to go with
01:03:35 [Music]
01:03:40 no no mr. Gilliam is the next witness sir he has asked to stand was giving his evidence I'm afraid not has to be some so we need a bit of adjustment of furniture it does so say apologies for
01:03:53 furniture it does so say apologies for the irritation it might ask you to rise so they those changes can be done and then yes if I have to retire otherwise five minutes - as long as it takes thank you sir
01:04:13 you
01:08:25 yesterday I think we're ready I think we are not called Marcin Gilliam yeah [Music]
01:08:40 [Applause]
01:08:48 [Music]
01:08:52 we still need some city and truly thank
01:09:06 we still need some city and truly thank you very much for spilling I gather you drive it's time to give this place a yeah yes we'll just make yourself as comfortable as you can then thank you mister clear we'll have some questions yes exactly would you please confirm your name
01:09:17 would you please confirm your name Martin get him thank you very much for coming to give evidence today it's very much appreciated now you have provided a witness statement and a contemporaneous note now
01:09:28 statement and a contemporaneous note now if you turn to the blue bundle in front of you hopefully behind the first tab you'll find your statement dated the 21st of December 2017 escort and have you read that document recently yes sir
01:09:41 you read that document recently yes sir and its contents true yes sir and could you turn to the next tab and hopefully you'll find a contemporaneous note yes and have you read that document recently yes and the contents true yes
01:09:55 recently yes and the contents true yes and all you contend that both those documents stand is your evidence the inquiry yes sir now because you've provided a detailed statement and a condemned contemporaneous note I'm not
01:10:06 condemned contemporaneous note I'm not going to take you through each and every line of those documents but simply to discuss particular issues with you now if at any time you want a break please say so also if you're more comfortable
01:10:17 say so also if you're more comfortable giving evidence in shirtsleeves that's not a problem I of us just say so now finally on housekeeping matters if any of my questions are unclear the problem
01:10:29 of my questions are unclear the problem is mine please say so and I'll rephrase the question says clearer now can I start with some basic details that you've been a firefighter for nine years and be with the LF piece into 2011 is
01:10:41 and be with the LF piece into 2011 is that right that's correct and at the time of the fire you were based at
01:10:45 based at Paddington as quick and you're still based at Paddington the sack right yes now could I now turn to consider the issue of your training and practical experience and could I ask you to turn
01:10:58 experience and could I ask you to turn to page three of your witness statement and the second paragraph
01:11:12 but seconds which says I think there are 12 fi using the brigade they carry more specialist equipment they're more likely to attend road traffic collisions instance on the tubes etc there are different Scrolls across across the
01:11:23 different Scrolls across across the brigade
01:11:24 brigade but our skill here at Pennington is line rescue and then next paragraph to work on the fi you have to be a competent firefighter like I am you either come to an fi u station you'll transfer into one
01:11:35 an fi u station you'll transfer into one like I did then you have to do a fire rescue unit course which is a three week course and there's also a set for three day EDB a extra duration breathing apparatus course on this course they
01:11:47 apparatus course on this course they teach you about the EDB a set which is practically the same there are just a few differences first of all are you able to give us an idea of the detailed substance of the fiu training you
01:11:58 substance of the fiu training you undertook the fyu course is a three and a half week course I did mine based at Port Royal training centre and that covers the different equipment it's
01:12:10 covers the different equipment it's carried on the fire rescue unit which it's slightly different equipment on there more heavy duty gear for attending
01:12:22 there more heavy duty gear for attending road traffic collisions there's on our particular appliance we carry lime rescue equipment that's our skill Paddington another sort of instance for attending train train crashes and things
01:12:35 attending train train crashes and things for police systems things like that - the course entailed going through each of the bits of kit on the truck going through it then we do practical stuff with it
01:12:44 with it training with it a mixture of the lectures in the classroom and practical basis in the yard and the at the end of that quarter to do a written exam and a practical exam is there a high-rise
01:12:56 practical exam is there a high-rise element to the training you provide on the air for you course on tonight apart from the difference in duration in terms of their use what are the principal differences between EDB a and standard
01:13:09 differences between EDB a and standard duration breathing apparatus an ATPase that will be used for longer-duration where's for example maybe something involving sewer rescue
01:13:20 maybe something involving sewer rescue but that where the travel distance in the travel time between the entry control point and the scene of operations is longer we do realize extended duration breathing apparatus the difference has been it's a heavier
01:13:32 the difference has been it's a heavier set always about 12 kilos more he's got an inch of cylinder on the back which are attached which also gives you the extra volume of air but in terms the
01:13:43 extra volume of air but in terms the principles are very much the same the testing is the same and the layer of the The Bodyguard the mask is all identical when you're wearing EDB a will you carry a spare mask in the event that it's
01:13:54 a spare mask in the event that it's needed for someone you rescue for example on tonight would it be practicable for you to carry a spare mask when you're deployed with your EDB a kit you could do yes listening to what
01:14:09 a kit you could do yes listening to what you say is it fair to say that someone who is trained in the use of s DBA would also be able to use EDB a without too much difficulty I'll say yesterday going back to your
01:14:23 say yesterday going back to your statement he's not a Canadian so sorry sorry to interrupt you mr. King if you were to carry a spare mask how easy is it to attach a spare mask to the
01:14:34 it to attach a spare mask to the existing set it's very easy sir we on the on the BA set itself wherever what's called a second person connection which if a firefighter becomes one word or interact in it it was boville atmosphere we can bring
01:14:47 it was boville atmosphere we can bring in a spare set and that's better set if there if there's nothing wrong with their actual set that they're wearing you can plug in the spare mask into what's called a second person if the connection is a similar house for it so
01:14:58 connection is a similar house for it so if we had the spare mask in theory Akashi we could put the mask on a casually which I think was done on the night by a colleague of mine and then plugged into the second person connection on the set that's very
01:15:10 connection on the set that's very helpful thank you thank you turning back to page 2 of your witness statement and the fourth paragraph the last three lines you mentioned there the
01:15:22 last three lines you mentioned there the instant effect relic tower he said the only reason we went to Trellick was because the water didn't work so we went to look at the procedures and what we would do in that situation again now in terms of learning points what did you
01:15:34 terms of learning points what did you take away from the trial act our fire in terms of accuracy that statement there's a little bit wrong I was on duty that night while I was writing the fire rescue unit we didn't attend to elect
01:15:45 rescue unit we didn't attend to elect out the fire at rate hours but I did attend the the visit that came afterwards due to the problems with the riser but I know I'm familiar with the job because my watch attended it what learning points did you take away you
01:15:56 learning points did you take away you attended to look at the weapon right yeah we attended to the riser and what would what would happen if that happened again and would we make use of potentially lightweight portable pumps
01:16:07 potentially lightweight portable pumps in the stairwells and other means of getting water to the high floors if that happened again did you look at any other aspect of high-rise firefighting procedures and
01:16:19 high-rise firefighting procedures and techniques on tonight mr. Gillam I'd like now to talk about the night your mobilization and arrival at the scene now if we can just look at some basic
01:16:31 now if we can just look at some basic facts first of all it's a matter of record that you're mobilized at 120 on the road at 122 and arrived on the scene at 135 does that seem right to you what I'll see it on the night you were in the
01:16:44 I'll see it on the night you were in the fiu at Paddington and the call signs alpha two one six is that right that's correct and you were riding with crew manager Phil Wiggly and firefighters roberts gonzales and harris is that
01:16:55 roberts gonzales and harris is that right that's correct and if paul could you put up on the screen LFP quadruple zero one nine one four underscore 100
01:17:06 zero one nine one four underscore 100 and the second but from the top is that the type of FIU you were riding on the night yes for the
01:17:22 you were riding on the night yes for the avoidance of doubt and so people understand what are the principal functions of an F are you and fyu is a rescue unit so it doesn't impair carry ladders and it doesn't have any water on
01:17:34 ladders and it doesn't have any water on board it doesn't have houses or branches on board it's not necessarily for firefighting encourage a larger range of equipment more complex incidents road traffic collisions train crashes people
01:17:46 traffic collisions train crashes people under trains that incidence of that nature and Paddington we are blind rescuers a skill so we might get cool to be persons threatening to jump or someone stuck up a crane incidents like
01:17:57 someone stuck up a crane incidents like that would you carry bits of kit such as ground monitors and lightweight portable pumps aren't enough turning back to page four of your witness statement and the
01:18:09 four of your witness statement and the first substantive paragraph the fourth line you say this a message has come up on the MDT that said fo use no longer requires to be pulled over from minutes
01:18:20 requires to be pulled over from minutes then fill wiggly just clarified it on the main scheme radio call controller do you still work for us for this instantly said yes proceed now you say you pulled over for a minute can you now remember
01:18:31 over for a minute can you now remember more precisely how long it took for the clarification to be sought yes I remember pot specifically the FYE was mobilizing the met pump state along with
01:18:42 mobilizing the met pump state along with what the pump bladder which which whereas the college is writing and we were behind the pumpkinator on our way to the incident and on the handheld radio the governor got over the message it appeared on the MDT that we
01:18:54 message it appeared on the MDT that we were no longer required I can see that messages I'm riding in the back of the truck
01:18:59 truck so Phil who was instrumented with leaves in charge of that truck that night we pulled over he got control on the main scheme radio and just to clarify whether we're still required to attend they said answered on
01:19:10 required to attend they said answered on say yes so that whole process probably took around 2 minutes now in terms of its operation how reliable is the MDT normally pretty brother now if I can now
01:19:24 normally pretty brother now if I can now turn to the question of access problems the second half of page four of your witness statement on most page five you set out in detail that the various part cars etc that hindered your access to
01:19:36 cars etc that hindered your access to the tower can you now remember how long it took you to maneuver around these various obstacles I'd say at least two to three minutes the the fyu slightly longer at the back maybe another meter or so 1 1 / 5 meters long longer than a
01:19:50 or so 1 1 / 5 meters long longer than a normal appliance and theme was driving he couldn't get round the turn so we had to bounce two cars at the way in the corner so a couple of minutes at least looking back at page 5 the final
01:20:02 looking back at page 5 the final paragraph and six lines up from the bottom you say the hydrant was on the corner of Granville Road and boom or Road on the right what's the hydrant was operational do you know what the water
01:20:14 operational do you know what the water pressure was like was it adequate or not I can't answer I helped lay out there they did the house before the pump from the hydrogen I didn't test the hydrant before it was
01:20:27 I didn't test the hydrant before it was probed in now I'd like to ask you questions about the nature of the fire that you perceived when you first arrived at the tower and could ask you to look at page 5 and the second substantive paragraph on that page line
01:20:38 substantive paragraph on that page line 4 onwards and you said this you could see the fire was spreading up the building but it just looked like he was external because it was just external it just looked like it got the cladding now
01:20:50 just looked like it got the cladding now did you think the cladding was involved at the time yes and what was it about your knowledge of cladding that allowed you to form that view I could see the rest of the building and
01:21:04 I could see the rest of the building and I could see that the that window and the window totally above what were involved and that something was burning above it and obviously look at the rest of the building offered identify it that was cladding that was a lie and are you
01:21:18 cladding that was a lie and are you aware that one of the purposes of cladding is waterproofing yes and that because of that is it your view that it would be difficult to get water to penetrate the cladding in order to
01:21:31 penetrate the cladding in order to extinguish any fire or contain any fire I don't know one speculate on that staying with this paragraph the final three lines I honestly thought we would
01:21:42 three lines I honestly thought we would get it the turntable ladder is going to put water on that and it's going to go when they said about the line I thought oh yeah we'll be able to get that now to be clear the phrase we would get it do
01:21:54 be clear the phrase we would get it do you mean extinguish the fire what is it now given the rate of spread at the fire you've noticed over the course of ten minutes or so why did you think the turntable ladder would succeed in
01:22:05 turntable ladder would succeed in extinguishing the fire looking at the statement that way as written my opinion was that the tear would put water on from from the bottom as far as it could reach and our job from the roof with the
01:22:18 reach and our job from the roof with the line would be putting water down onto the job so with it - with the water come from underneath and above I thought we'd get it and when you're talking about the line here to be clear what are you
01:22:29 line here to be clear what are you talking about sorry like I said all our skillet Paddington is line rescue so line is it's a brigade terminology for rope so we basically make myself safe using rope when you say I thought oh
01:22:42 using rope when you say I thought oh yeah we will go we will be able to get that what did you mean by that but we'd be able to put it out now turning over the page to page six and the last paragraph you say this at the
01:22:57 the last paragraph you say this at the bottom of this page after the hydrant hose filled wit lee came back and said they wanted us to go into the tower and use lineups which is rope-access which were trained to do on the fiu they said they wanted us to go
01:23:10 the fiu they said they wanted us to go to the roof find a strong anchor point tie ourselves off make ourselves safe so if we did slip we are not going to fall to the floor and then put a jet down from the top of the tower and spray it down because obviously it was starting
01:23:22 down because obviously it was starting to take the cladding and the team couldn't throw the water high enough to reach the top I don't know who gave filled that order I just do as I'm told
01:23:31 just completed so we looked at it and at the time is a couple of flats going and a bit of the cladding on the outside it looked like a durable jaw we thought yeah we could do that now given what
01:23:46 yeah we could do that now given what you'd already seen of the fire spread what risks did you identify at the time that flowed from applying the line as a means of firefighting
01:23:57 means of firefighting and you mean risks to ourselves as firefighters risk to yourselves primarily yes well in general lines not used where there's fire obviously it
01:24:08 used where there's fire obviously it burns but looking at the job as a group as a team we we thought there was it was an achievable task and obviously have to take a certain element of risk in the
01:24:19 take a certain element of risk in the nature of the job and especially at that incident did you question the utility the feasibility of the task not did others question the feasible element if
01:24:35 others question the feasible element if I understood it correctly the the purpose of the line was really to tie you on to the building the purpose of the line would be to we've got three
01:24:47 the line would be to we've got three systems that we can use work with strain positioning and fall arrestor basically we can we took all the equipment that we needed to the the aim was to get to the roof
01:24:57 roof identify what we had to maybe use his tire points or whatever make ourselves make ourselves safe and then we were going to lean over Charles two Jet's and trial
01:25:06 trial you'll also have had to get hose up to the roof of the building as well which are caused with a serious so that the line is that was there for our
01:25:17 line is that was there for our protection and the reason and the reason why line isn't ordinarily used in fire situations is the obvious one it burns that's it now beyond what you could see
01:25:30 that's it now beyond what you could see with your own eyes what information did you have regarding any fire spread within the tower itself at the time you were tasked to go up to the roof no information sir did you have any
01:25:41 information sir did you have any information regarding conditions on the roof itself no did you have any information regarding the means of access to the roof nothing or whether it
01:25:52 access to the roof nothing or whether it was obstructed by means of a gate or any other device the next topic I'd like to discuss is your arrival at the bridgehead itself and could I ask you to
01:26:04 bridgehead itself and could I ask you to turn to page seven of your witness statements in the first substantive paragraph wait so he walked into the tower loads of stuff falling everywhere we got to the bridgehead which was just
01:26:16 we got to the bridgehead which was just on the mezzanine at this point the bridgehead is a thing we set up on high-rise instance a control point in charge of that was watch manager Brian Hickey from Kensington we told him we were briefed to go out to go onto the
01:26:27 were briefed to go out to go onto the roof we made the decision that we would try and get up onto the roof and then what we would do we would start up and go into err on the roof if we go under err there and go all the way up to the top we'd have nothing left because it's
01:26:40 top we'd have nothing left because it's smoke at the top so we knew we would have to be under air to lean over the top to put the water down because obviously it's going to be coming right in our face so we told Brian what we were doing and then we tried to go up and not under
01:26:52 and then we tried to go up and not under air we set that to Brian and he said yeah I don't really want you to do that but go on
01:26:57 but go on we all had edpa sets on our back which extended duration breathing apparatus they got two cylinders on robben one which are carried on the normal truck so we have longer so we have them on our backs as well plus all the gear now at
01:27:10 backs as well plus all the gear now at that stage where was the bridgehead on the mezzanine on the mezzanine floor you'd go into tower turn to your right there's a bottle glass staircase and the
01:27:22 there's a bottle glass staircase and the mezzanine on the mezzanine walkway just at the entrance to that what briefing did mr. O'Keefe give you regarding conditions within the tower at that stage I told him what we were what we've
01:27:34 stage I told him what we were what we've been tasked with what Phil had been tasked with by the officer in charge and I've known a long time using my gardener and yet there he had a lot going on then at that time so I try to make this job
01:27:46 at that time so I try to make this job bit easy I'm just told him what we would plan on doing did mr. Wiggly or any member of your crew ask mr. O'Keefe what conditions were like in the stairwell I can't answer that I was at the front someone at the back might have asked that
01:27:57 at the back might have asked that questions but I didn't hear did you hear any question being asked regarding conditions on the roof for example no
01:28:05 where did you just on that point so tips because we saw the job from the outside before we went in we assumed nothing was alight on the roof because we could see at what height the fire had reached and it hadn't reached the roof at that time
01:28:16 it hadn't reached the roof at that time so were you assuming at that stage that the fire was static or not can you expend we mean were you assuming that the fire would remain where it was when
01:28:28 the fire would remain where it was when you saw it from the outside yes can ask why did you assume that given the spread and the 10-minute field from outside to say if we assumed I'm
01:28:39 from outside to say if we assumed I'm just talking about my personal opinion not necessarily that the whole crew you could see that it was rising but obviously we at that point we were on the inside of the bridgehead coming out afterwards we've seen the scale of the
01:28:51 afterwards we've seen the scale of the spread but at that time we weren't we didn't have that information that was spreading at that speed so we yeah be fair to say that we thought we could get to the
01:29:01 to the and it would it would be worse but not as bad as it obviously became and when you told mr. O'Keefe about the task to go up to the 23rd floor can remember the precise words he used in response or the
01:29:14 precise words he used in response or the gist of the words he used I think it'd be unfair to speculate there's a lot going on a lot shouting to remember a specific sentence no now in the paragraph I've quoted you say mr.
01:29:27 the paragraph I've quoted you say mr. Keefe said gee I don't really want you to do that but go on can't remember did he not want you to go to the roof or was it he didn't want you to not commit under air and I told him we were going
01:29:39 under air and I told him we were going to the roof he didn't want particularly want us to go in not under air some sort of expanding on what said in that part the idea was that we would go to the
01:29:50 the idea was that we would go to the roof not under air because obviously we need the air up there not realizing that we'd all see the internal conditions at that time so the idea was we get to the roof not under air and then I sits on
01:30:02 roof not under air and then I sits on our back but then we actually put the face masks on to protect us from breathing in the smoke that be rising up and as you were the first EDB a crew to be present at the bridgehead did you have a conversation
01:30:13 bridgehead did you have a conversation with mr. O'Keefe or anyone else regarding prioritization of tasks not now could ask you now - were going to discuss conditions on the 4th floor as
01:30:25 discuss conditions on the 4th floor as he went up the tower and in page seven on the final paragraph that page the first sentence starts so we went up to the fourth floor
01:30:37 now presumably you went from the bridgehead up the stairwell to the third floor is that a fair assumption now can you describe what conditions were like in the stairwell when you first entered it
01:30:47 it I'd say gray smoke but not wispy smoke not that hot how thick was it not that thick you can see I could see my crew
01:31:00 you went up to the fourth floor did you enter into that from the fourth floor stairwell into the fourth floor lobby at any time on tonight could you tell where the smoke was coming from none can you
01:31:15 the smoke was coming from none can you remember apologies it's a difficult question how long you spent on the fourth floor stairwell before deciding to return back to the bridgehead I've saw you talking about yeah so we made our way up to the fourth it became
01:31:27 our way up to the fourth it became apparent pretty quickly that the conditions weren't there allow us to get to the roof not under air so I'd say that was a matter of the travel distance between the bridgehead and the fourth and back down you're talking maybe a
01:31:39 and back down you're talking maybe a minute maybe two thank you now you'll see returns to the bridgehead yes put the DBA on yes tallied out and if I could ask Paul to
01:31:51 tallied out and if I could ask Paul to turn up the deed ebay was already on we just put the Marcel for the Moscow could I ask Paul to turn to the telemetry data lfb quadruple zero 3.15 unbox 14 and you'll see hopefully though
01:32:07 unbox 14 and you'll see hopefully though if I could be magnified a bit more the tally at time appears to be 156 does that sound about right once yes
01:32:16 did you inform when you return to the Brita did you form mr. O'Keefe or anyone else at the conditions you'd encounter on the stairwell going up to the fourth floor yes we had a brief conversation along the lines of Bright's to smokey
01:32:29 along the lines of Bright's to smokey we've got gone through a cycle on those lines and he said go on then and did you have that who of your crew had that conversation with mr. O'Keefe yes now if
01:32:42 conversation with mr. O'Keefe yes now if I next topic is your second attempt to go up the tower and if I could ask you to turn to page 9 of your witness statement the first paragraph first sentence which says so we've started
01:32:53 sentence which says so we've started going up again from the mezzanine and it's proper smokey but it's not too hot at this point it's hot but not too bad the stairwell was narrow from the railing to the wall is about a meter and a half to be clear are you saying that
01:33:07 a half to be clear are you saying that immediately on leaving the bridgehead on the mezzanine conditions have become smoking hot no so it's a bit confusing
01:33:20 but it was like wispy smoke not not not at the bridgehead but immediately when he went the next floor maybe the third or the fourth you'd get to the the gray wispy smoke again if we could look at
01:33:33 wispy smoke again if we could look at the second paragraph on page 9 you say so he got to about the eleventh and twelfth floor and we're stopping there can you describe smoke conditions as you
01:33:45 can you describe smoke conditions as you went from the fourth up into the eleventh floors they got worse I'd say visibility was reduced but partly because partly because there wasn't much lighting you could make out
01:34:00 wasn't much lighting you could make out the outlines of your crew you couldn't really see them that well I remember making out firefighters milton campbell because we know them and can you remember what color the smoke was as you
01:34:12 remember what color the smoke was as you send it up tower great and can you describe the temperature as you went from the 4th to the 11th floor did it stay constant of did it increase or decrease I call member tone you mentioned lighting in
01:34:26 member tone you mentioned lighting in the stairwell as you went from the 4 to 11th floor you remember whether the stairwell was lit all the way up or partially it wasn't lit I'd say off to about the fourth floor there was there was no lighting
01:34:38 now when you met Mills and Campbell did you talk with either or both of them yes and what did who started the conversations that you or they I think
01:34:50 conversations that you or they I think that bit a bit of a blur but I can remember
01:34:53 remember Mills he telling me that they couldn't get to the lady they aim to rescue on the 20th floor that he was running out of air so they were going out and did
01:35:04 of air so they were going out and did they give you the flat number no did they give you any further details regarding the lady they were seeking to rescue Knight was there any mention
01:35:16 rescue Knight was there any mention whether she was vulnerable or not know at that at that point our plan wasn't to go to the 20th floor we were we were going to stick to our brief which was to make it to the roof now on page 9 of the
01:35:29 make it to the roof now on page 9 of the bottom half the page we describe your progress up the tower as she went from the 11th up until the 15th or 16th floors can you describe the smoke conditions as you went between those
01:35:41 conditions as you went between those floors I'd say they got a little bit worse but that might be due to I'm trying to remember but that obviously we were fatiguing at that point we obviously found 15 steppe flights with
01:35:53 obviously found 15 steppe flights with the equipment we're carrying so I'd say no sorry can you remember much about the temperature not really no can you remember whether
01:36:07 not really no can you remember whether any of the doors from the stairwell to individual lobbies were open or not I don't recall seeing any open at that time at that height anyway now somewhere
01:36:19 time at that height anyway now somewhere between the 15th and 16th floors on you decide that there was no realistic prospect of getting to the roof is that a first summary yes and what were the principal reasons why you came to that view because initially the plan was to
01:36:31 view because initially the plan was to get up there not under air so we the reason was we have to allow turnaround time in our sets a safety margin to get back down and out safely so we realized
01:36:43 back down and out safely so we realized pretty quick that we won't be able to get up onto the roof carry out the task we've been given and get down all in the same where that particular set when you came to that decision as a crew
01:36:55 came to that decision as a crew can you remember for example how much air you had left I didn't take a gauge reading at that time I can't remember can't remember in terms of minutes how much hair you thought you had left we've
01:37:07 much hair you thought you had left we've felt like we've been there about 15 minutes so I knew that we had we'd have another 20 minutes maybe and who suggested that you change tack and seeks to rescue the lady that Mills had
01:37:20 to rescue the lady that Mills had informed you about maybe and did the other crew members who agree with that at the time I thought I did haven't discussed it I think if you weren't aware but I I remember Pacific's
01:37:33 weren't aware but I I remember Pacific's specifically thinking that we need to get up there to get the lady that they couldn't rescue could I ask you to turn to page 10 of your statements and the first substantive paragraph before line you
01:37:47 substantive paragraph before line you say we tried to radio down because when you change your brief or you're doing something different entry control should know about it we radioed down a couple of times and nothing because I they weren't getting us or we weren't getting them it's a concrete building sitcoms a
01:38:00 them it's a concrete building sitcoms a notoriously bad when you're way up the tower had you received any information via the radio excuse me regarding FSG No had you heard any particular FSG
01:38:12 No had you heard any particular FSG calls before you went up regarding residents on the 20th and 21st floors no I think it's fair to say oh I didn't have comm I had a handheld radio but I
01:38:23 have comm I had a handheld radio but I didn't have a berry set on that night so I wouldn't have been able to hear them anyway may ask why you wouldn't have had a berry set on that night across the machine there's five EDA sets two of
01:38:35 machine there's five EDA sets two of them would have had very on you don't need them on every set and two two of the crew would have had berry and I wasn't one of them can you remember a fuel crew who had the berry sets I think
01:38:46 fuel crew who had the berry sets I think it was firefighters Oilers and Provenza with me but I can't confirm that when who would have been radioing down to the two entry control one of the one one of
01:38:57 two entry control one of the one one of the crew with the Bears hit and are you able to help us was there it was it but there was no response at all or was that they couldn't crack through the traffic or what I'm not sure I remember when
01:39:11 or what I'm not sure I remember when their equipment would be said that it wasn't our brief we discussed that we just radioed down and let them know that we were changing what we were doing I don't know if they've got a response back from that if comms are notoriously
01:39:24 back from that if comms are notoriously bad in concrete buildings when there's a change in task or brief has happened here how do you inform the bridgehead or entry control of that change or indeed
01:39:35 entry control of that change or indeed where you are well this is obviously quite unique insert in terms of travel distance and breakdown and cons but if
01:39:46 distance and breakdown and cons but if it was a house job for example you might better make your way to a window and shout to them let them know what you're doing but in this particular instance we didn't have any way of doing that no if the next topic I'd like to discuss
01:39:57 the next topic I'd like to discuss reduce your arrival on the 20th floor itself and again if I could ask you to turn to page 10 of your witness statement and the second substantive paragraph third line you say so we got
01:40:10 paragraph third line you say so we got 220 we couldn't find anyone andy harris has opened the door that goes into the hallway of 20 nothing fully smoke logged but I pre said it's difficult at this
01:40:21 but I pre said it's difficult at this remove but can you remember at what time or uh how long after you left the bridgehead you arrived at the 20th floor [Music]
01:40:30 [Music] actually accurately no I think you'd be able to get that information from the BA temperature information it would tell you show you a calming down in the breathing rate potentially when we've
01:40:41 breathing rate potentially when we've stopped at that floor most useful now did you see Andy Harris open the door and go into the hallway or floor to
01:40:52 and go into the hallway or floor to floor 20 yes how far into the lobby did he go he just opened the door and took one place aside or was still stood a job did he shout anything and if so what to
01:41:05 did he shout anything and if so what to be shared
01:41:06 be shared yeah there was a few of a shouting up I think it just shouted fire brigade some along them lines what were the conditions like first of all on the
01:41:17 conditions like first of all on the stairwell of floor 20 smoky and when Andy opened that door let a lot of darker smoke into that still woman and how hot was the smoke that came from the
01:41:31 how hot was the smoke that came from the lobby into the stairwell it's bearable now at that stage would it have been practicable for one or two or two
01:41:44 practicable for one or two or two members of your crew to break off and knock on each of the flat doors on floor 20 potentially but I wouldn't have personally I wouldn't have allowed that
01:41:56 personally I wouldn't have allowed that to happen I'm a crew I wouldn't have split the crew up no I that not after what we've just done the travel distance was just done and what we had to go back down I don't think with the guys riding
01:42:07 down I don't think with the guys riding with me that night we would have come to that decision and so even though you're a crew of five you wouldn't have split into say two component groups of two or three for example I'd say no
01:42:21 if I can look at turning back to page 10 and the second substantive paragraph six lines down
01:42:39 you say Andy Harris has opened the door that goes into the hallway of 20 nothing fully smoke logged firefighter Roberts had gone up one more floor to 21
01:42:51 Roberts had gone up one more floor to 21 and there she was she was lying on the mezzanine the stairs zigzag and she was on that zigzag there on the half landing between 20 and 21 so we have gone up there and she was lying on the back against the wall she was coughing and
01:43:02 against the wall she was coughing and spluttering she was conscious and breathing alert knew what she was doing I spoke to her and now it's have you got anyone with you know anyone left on your floor know what taking each element of
01:43:17 floor know what taking each element of that why did Andy Harris go up to the 21st floor start to go up to the 21st floor on his own I've asked inaccurate and he opened the door on the 20th floor
01:43:28 and he opened the door on the 20th floor we were in a wall bunch together on that on that landing and Dino went to go and do this Dean Roberts went to do and do the same thing on the 21st so in terms
01:43:40 the same thing on the 21st so in terms when you say breaking up we were literally from the distance of where I am to you and how did you become aware of the woman in baton the stairwell between the 20th 21st floor as Dane went
01:43:52 between the 20th 21st floor as Dane went from the 20th floor to 21st as the landings go back on themself on the half landing the lady was lying on the foot you can't miss her did you or did any crew ask the woman which floor she had
01:44:04 crew ask the woman which floor she had come from no can you remember whether she had a cloth or a towel over a mouth or eyes
01:44:13 or eyes no she had something around her head and I remember tying that round her mouth and nose and did you try and radio the bridgehead or entry controlled to say
01:44:24 bridgehead or entry controlled to say that you found a woman between the 20th and 21st floors and we're bringing it down yeah we did discuss getting comms down to the bridge edges but I didn't personally send that message okay were you able to get was the message able to
01:44:35 you able to get was the message able to get through to the bridge head I don't know
01:44:41 you say I'm further down in that paragraph afterwards six lines up all there abouts afterwards I was a bit upset because I thought if she has come
01:44:52 upset because I thought if she has come from 21 to 22 I asked if there was anyone on the floors and she said known obviously I since found out though there was people on the floors and people have died that I asked her as that is pretty normal because if you find a casualty
01:45:04 normal because if you find a casualty you're meant to sweep round them and check so I asked her and she said no and you refer to a sweep around what would that normally involve there I'm describing if you are searching
01:45:16 describing if you are searching searching rescue for looking for casualties if if they're unconscious you don't do a cursory search around them because generally casualties can be found together with their loved ones so you spread out and you try and search
01:45:30 so you spread out and you try and search for anyone else with them but obviously in this instance the lady was conscious and breathing and talking so I just asked her if she had anyone with her and if if there was anyone else up there with her but I'm not actually sure if
01:45:42 with her but I'm not actually sure if she was a resident of that floor or she came down from higher up or up from down below I can't help you there so looking back now that stage of the night would
01:45:54 back now that stage of the night would have been practicable for some members of your crew to go onto the 21st floor and double check whether there were any other people in flats up on that floor or not Dean Roberts did open the door to
01:46:06 or not Dean Roberts did open the door to the 21st floor and the 27th floor and I think the 23rd floor you have to ask him and he did call out the fire brigade anyone there at that time it was hot and
01:46:18 anyone there at that time it was hot and smoky and when they opened their doors and our firefighter media which we took up with us was inside the lying bags three or four floors below so we had no no protection from the the heat and smoke in the fire can you give us an
01:46:31 smoke in the fire can you give us an idea of any of the conditions as between the 20th and 21st floors inside the hallways inside of always a thick black smoke
01:46:43 can I ask you to turn to page 11 and the third substantive paragraph second line
01:46:51 again it flows from the answer you've just given I think firefighter Roberts had gone up to 22 just to check the door in 22 and I could hear people shouting fire brigade fire brigade so that was the
01:47:03 brigade fire brigade so that was the boys doing that out of my crew but no one made themselves known to us and we didn't have the hose at that point now this may be a question for mr. Roberts himself but when he came back did you ask him if he'd knocked on any of the
01:47:14 ask him if he'd knocked on any of the doors of the flats on the 22nd floor but then ask him that night did you ask him whether he'd kicked any of the doors
01:47:34 given the conditions you encountered on the 20th and 21st floors to what extent are you able to factor in the possibility that people within flats on
01:47:45 possibility that people within flats on those floors wouldn't be able to shout out or call for assistance how do you factor that into your search and rescue plan so explain what you mean yes there
01:47:58 plan so explain what you mean yes there may it may well be that people Reza's occupants of flats on the 20th 21st 22nd floors off for some reason unable to shout out or call for help how
01:48:09 unable to shout out or call for help how do you factor that possibility into your search and rescue plan well you'd send crews specifically to those floors to search search for residents of them flats or our brief
01:48:21 residents of them flats or our brief wasn't to do that and because we'd already come across a cavity we obviously had to bear that in mind in terms of time that this lady was
01:48:32 terms of time that this lady was inhaling the smoke so it wasn't and we couldn't we couldn't gain access to them Hall's really about the firefighter media we needed to protect ourselves and then so put different AG sites of that
01:48:44 then so put different AG sites of that in with in fact today which is cool we called out put can i summarize your evidence this way please shout if this is unfair your priority was bringing the
01:48:55 is unfair your priority was bringing the woman down to safety once yes now between pages 11 and 12 your witness that you describe the journey down the tower could I ask you to turn to page 12
01:49:06 tower could I ask you to turn to page 12 and the top of the page [Music]
01:49:13 pick the lady up stuck on my shoulder and I said boys we've got to move and then you set out what you did now at that point masks are you trained to self
01:49:25 that point masks are you trained to self diagnose the symptoms of metabolic heat stress yes we are trained in that as you go further down page 12
01:49:36 go further down page 12 roughly halfway down you say I've tried to give us some air I've taken my lid off put my flashlight aside I've tried to get my hair to that
01:49:47 aside I've tried to get my hair to that I've still got my neck loop on the long one so it's all just a mess I try to put on her face she has leant over his shoulder backwards completely unconscious and I'm trying to put this on her face it's just going everywhere I
01:49:59 on her face it's just going everywhere I started hyperventilating and I took a couple of lungfuls of smoking and just made it worse so I put it on me and put it back on
01:50:14 would it have helped if you'd had the spare oxygen mark at the sperm ask at that stage yes given the height of the
01:50:27 that stage yes given the height of the building the conditions you encountered on the basis of your experience on that night could the woman have been rescued from the 21st floor if firefighters had only had standard duration breathing apparatus no and if I may ask the
01:50:42 apparatus no and if I may ask the obvious follow-on from that why the travel distance was too long I'm aware of some crews it did get to the that height but to bring a cache of you down
01:50:53 height but to bring a cache of you down to be working that hard bringing a casualty down you just blow to set out too quick you'd need any direction given your experience on the night in particular the experience is bringing
01:51:04 particular the experience is bringing the woman down the tower do you think if you'd remained on the 20th floor or up indeed to the 21st and 22nd floors you would have carried out a successful search of any flats without firefight
01:51:16 search of any flats without firefight immediate none would you've been able to carry or score people down from 20th 21st 22nd floors I'd say as a crew of five taking that lady down who wasn't a
01:51:28 five taking that lady down who wasn't a particularly big lady we were on the limit of what we could achieve so maybe one of a person any more than that we could have gotten stuck ourselves one point which is has been raised is
01:51:40 point which is has been raised is whether it would be possible to have fire fighters and standard your standard duration breathing apparatus waiting at the lower landings to help bring casualties down would that have been a practicable option on the night yet
01:51:53 practicable option on the night yet potentially it could I ask you now to turn to page 13 of your witness statement and six lines from the bottom you say this normally the heart that's
01:52:05 you say this normally the heart that's the hazardous ambulance response team are always at these jobs and they always want to get involved but they said they weren't allowed to go in tower up jobs and they always want to get involved but they said they weren't
01:52:18 so we had to get the casualties from the tower to them which is another 150 meters another minute whatever which was annoying were you given a reason why heart weren't allowed in the tower or
01:52:29 heart weren't allowed in the tower or move any closer to the tower no could I ask Paul to bring up the telemetry data
01:52:41 ask Paul to bring up the telemetry data again and if we're able to scan across to the furthest right oh sorry
01:52:52 to the furthest right oh sorry leave it there you'll see the end of where time 221 and scanning slightly to the left of Italian to bodyguard 232 to those times sound roughly right
01:53:03 232 to those times sound roughly right to you sorry sir I've confuse you if you look at the end of where column yet and
01:53:15 look at the end of where column yet and the bit that's highlighted yeah it says zero to 21 yeah and of where it sounds a bit short but if that's what telemetry saying in that's that's correct and if
01:53:27 saying in that's that's correct and if you scan to the left and there's the tallien column yeah that's accurate there was a break in normally when you withdraw you'd pick up the tallies straight away we were
01:53:40 the tallies straight away we were performing CPR so we didn't actually collect the tallies from the entry control board so that would be the time between those two numbers no you're concentrating on rescuing the woman providing CPR securing medical
01:53:53 woman providing CPR securing medical assistance when did you have the opportunity to return to the bridgehead would have been at 2:32 well there about I didn't actually pick up the tally so me and firefighters went back in to as
01:54:06 me and firefighters went back in to as soon as we drop that lady off to an ambulance crew we went back into the tower as we walk back in commander Stern came out of another casualty which we assisted him out with we get into the
01:54:18 assisted him out with we get into the ambulance
01:54:20 ambulance and the moon weights going again but colleagues of ours andy Harris and Russel Gonzales had gone in and picked up all the tallies for our whole team and we're waiting outside at that point and they basically weighed the tallies
01:54:32 and they basically weighed the tallies esse so we didn't go back in after that so you didn't have an opportunity to brief those that the entry control point of the bridgehead is the conditions you'd encountered not me personally no do you know whether any other members of
01:54:44 do you know whether any other members of your crew were able to give that update to people at the bridgehead or the entry point whether Andy Russell when Phil came out with that song gets in I can't give an accurate answer to that by
01:54:55 give an accurate answer to that by assume knowing feel he would have and is it likely they would have provided an update as to the rescue of the woman you found between the 20th and 21st floors yes
01:55:12 but could I ask you now to turn to page 16 of your statement and at the top the second paragraph on that page you
01:55:25 second paragraph on that page you discuss fire sorry the survival guidance calls can you remember the name of the watch manager who's providing you with
01:55:36 watch manager who's providing you with the slips of paper I can't give you his name I don't know him personally I know it was Lambros governor lumbers watts manager you saw Glen Williams play slips
01:55:48 manager you saw Glen Williams play slips of paper on the floor and did you see anyone reporting to mr. Williams the results of any rescue missions in response to an any FSG no were you asked
01:56:01 response to an any FSG no were you asked to relay any information back to the command unit aye weather crew had been deployed or the result of any search and rescue task no that wasn't my role my role was just going from lambda sports
01:56:12 role was just going from lambda sports manager into the tower and I gave this the officials to do it so it's simply order yeah it was a bit later in the chain can I ask you to turn to page 19
01:56:23 chain can I ask you to turn to page 19 of your statement
01:56:30 and in the first substantive paragraph on that page you describe encountering a woman near the side exit that had been opened up in the tower to allow
01:56:41 opened up in the tower to allow firefighters and residents to escape safely you say roughly two-thirds of the way down the page at this point she's going mad kicking screaming I saw Dino
01:56:53 going mad kicking screaming I saw Dino so that's Dean Roberts who was a big lad and I said Dino give us a hand and say his grappler as well we're trying to consult her but we're trying but we are saying she's got to get out she said my daughter my daughter so I said where's
01:57:05 daughter my daughter so I said where's your daughter she said we have come down from the 21st floor slap 183 and he said I'll tell them we will get your daughter can you remember what time this event happened
01:57:18 remember what time this event happened now I couldn't give you a quick time sorry it's after the the axis from the tower we were no longer going through the front we were going through the side and access had been broken through because the debris falling so in and
01:57:32 because the debris falling so in and around when that access was made this lady was brought out and my role was simply just to I just took her from the bridge down through the debris because there's a lot of debris falling and
01:57:43 there's a lot of debris falling and sharp objects and stuff on the floor do you know whether the message was passed regarding this lady's daughter to anyone it absolutely was Dean Dean did it at
01:57:55 it absolutely was Dean Dean did it at Dean doe and do you know to whom he passed the message I don't know the answer to that but I have seen the writing on the wall 183 21st floor in white China growth on the wall in the town it might well be
01:58:09 the wall in the town it might well be we'll have a break in due course and it might well be we can bring up that photograph and we can discuss it further since you raised it was to community how do you feel you happy to keep going for a bit yeah I'm fine thank you sir
01:58:20 for a bit yeah I'm fine thank you sir okay do you know yourself what steps were taken to rescue this lady's daughter no can you remember whether the
01:58:32 daughter no can you remember whether the lady refer to anyone else other than her daughter no now the next topic I'd like to discuss with you is your return inside the tower and could I ask you to
01:58:45 inside the tower and could I ask you to turn to page 20 and the fourth paragraph line 1 which starts they asked for only EDB a whereas they asked for only DBA
01:59:00 EDB a whereas they asked for only DBA whereas to come forward so we did and they pushed us to go back in again we went into another holding area to get you into the building two police officers would cover you with their shields to get you through the side entrance we got to the front and they
01:59:12 entrance we got to the front and they were like have you been in before and we were like nah and they were like you have and we were like yeah but we have but we know where we are going now if I could ask Paul to turn up the telemetry
01:59:23 could ask Paul to turn up the telemetry data again [Music]
01:59:30 and if we could look at box 191
01:59:59 there we see starting reading from left to right second VA where your name almost
02:00:07 almost I think the surname spelled incorrectly yeah that's inaccurate sir after our initial where we went out and complete what's called an a test we put fresh cylinders on the sets and we were told that we would not be going back in straightaway about a long break
02:00:19 straightaway about a long break obviously the conditions and the work we've done so we left off sets or up while their leisure center and I'm returning a bit later on those sets have been taken by another crew right I said there was a lot of firefighters on the
02:00:30 there was a lot of firefighters on the ground that can wear a DBA so they've taken them sets to our second where we're slightly later than that I think 6 a.m. and when we get those sets came from pegs and we tested them on the sink
02:00:41 from pegs and we tested them on the sink I guess if we just scan further to the right looking at the tally out time five minutes past 5:00 you think that's probably an hour or so later is that right
02:00:50 right yeah so the people these the names written here Dean Andrew Russell and myself we didn't wear the sets at that time too because we've signed the book it looks like they're all set but our
02:01:02 it looks like they're all set but our second where or from cetera that came from stores and so doing the best you can you thought you re-entered the tower around six o'clock or every 6:00 a.m. when I went in you okay how can you be
02:01:14 when I went in you okay how can you be so certain because obvious it's difficult now remembering why it's a little bit of Sun remember Sun coming up and taking a bit ring my wife looking
02:01:25 and taking a bit ring my wife looking back at page 20 the final paragraph three lines from the bottom the paid they gave us our brief which was to take tea I see thermal imaging camera and as
02:01:36 tea I see thermal imaging camera and as we go up we'd come across some charge lengths of food with a branch on we were to take one of them we go to the 12th floor we're to fight the fire on the 12th floor as wheat had comp had had
02:01:47 12th floor as wheat had comp had had contact with people on the 12th floor like an hour ago they hadn't given up on those people can you remember at the time you were deployed on that particular task where was the location
02:01:58 particular task where was the location of the bridgehead the bridgehead was on the ground floor at the bottom of the graph staircase as you went up from the bridgehead up the tower
02:02:10 from the bridgehead up the tower can you describe conditions in the stairwell as you went from the third floor up
02:02:15 floor up I'd say smoky the entire way and how thick was that smoke I can't remember that remember here's a carload when we open the doors to the hallways but not
02:02:27 open the doors to the hallways but not so much in need you could sit you could see the crews the other crews the the the outlines of the other curves what do you remember about the temperature of the stairwell at that time in the
02:02:38 the stairwell at that time in the morning not much sorry
02:02:45 no when you reach the tenth floor it's right that you found a body on their landing is that right that's correct I think God in my statement it's
02:02:56 think God in my statement it's considered the male but believe it to be a female casually now and it is believed the person who found was Kishida Khadija say from flat one seven three on the 20th floor were you able to check for
02:03:07 20th floor were you able to check for vital signs of life when we got there the crews that we took over from I had already done that and I think that been done a few times but from my experience
02:03:18 done a few times but from my experience and seeing the lady in situ it was fair to say that she was deceased could I now turn to a separate matter and that's houses another firefighting equipment you mentioned at various
02:03:30 equipment you mentioned at various points in your statement that hoses another firefighting kit were left in the stairwell do you know what efforts were made during the course of the night to clear that equipment from the stairwell no would it be practicable to
02:03:44 stairwell no would it be practicable to have removed hoses etc discarded equipment from the stairwell where I've described hose in my statement that that's that's child's lives a host or crews are using that to firefight so we
02:03:55 crews are using that to firefight so we needed that in there but as she went up the stairwell was the other hoses discarded hoses discarded equipment on the stove oh I wouldn't say discard it
02:04:06 the stove oh I wouldn't say discard it all the hose was charged which means he's under pressures full of water and as far as to my knowledge it was being new so it wasn't discarded so it's the only operative kit that you came across that she went up yeah I didn't see
02:04:17 that she went up yeah I didn't see anything else other than hose really on the staircase and she went up can you remember what the doors from the stairwell to the lobbies were open or closed on the on the floors that I was
02:04:29 closed on the on the floors that I was on 11 at 10 11 and 12 they were closed
02:04:34 can I now ask you about a separate topic and that stay-put advice and could I ask you to turn to page 24 in the statement
02:04:45 you to turn to page 24 in the statement and I think it's the second paragraph on that page too difficult to see with these statements in the middle of the night when we were stood on the grassy area by the Sports cool is that Hall
02:04:59 area by the Sports cool is that Hall it's meant to be running the court a message came over the radio and channeled warm that said all firefighters and ground personnel to be aware who even now advised the residents to self evacuate time wise on that I
02:05:10 to self evacuate time wise on that I don't know three four in the morning maybe that definitely came over the handheld radios that they take that they told people to get out can you remember now whether this was
02:05:22 can you remember now whether this was the only message about change from the statehood advice that you heard on the radio stirring the course of the night there may be more but that that is the one I recalled at that time I don't think that times accurate to be able to
02:05:33 think that times accurate to be able to get that date or somewhere else but I remember that coming over the handheld radio or Bible down personnel we made a way that people they told yourself evacuate now thank you mr. Gunn sir I've
02:05:44 evacuate now thank you mr. Gunn sir I've come to the end of that section of questions it might be a useful time for a break for five or ten minutes to see whether there are any further matters are rising and and then we can put them
02:05:57 are rising and and then we can put them to mr. Gilliam questions I might do respectively that the the China graphic all right well we'll have a breakdown miss to give them there please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or
02:06:08 talk to anyone about your evidence or anything related to it over the break and they'll resume at quarter past twelve
02:06:15 twelve yes I'd like to go to the archer sure look after you good 12:15 then please
02:06:34 you
02:15:34 makes it right
02:15:38 [Music]
02:15:50 all right mr. Gillam yes sir thank you possibly a few more questions thank you sir miss Kim thank you very much for your patience we're nearly done so the end is in sight but I'd be grateful for your help on a few more points no way first of all we were discussing whether
02:16:04 first of all we were discussing whether the lady's message regarding her daughter flat 183 was communicated and you rightly referred to markings on a wall um could I uh spall to turn up met
02:16:16 wall um could I uh spall to turn up met triple zero one five eight one five now if we look at left hand left hand side
02:16:37 now are you able to identify one eight three four lines down in the top left-hand corner yes and reading from
02:16:52 left-hand corner yes and reading from left to right one if I think one eight three floor 21 or able to are you able to decipher the script further to the
02:17:04 to decipher the script further to the right
02:17:10 that's his BA and then F do you know what F might stand for I'm the Schumann fatality and if we
02:17:21 I'm the Schumann fatality and if we could pull further towards the left of seeing that middle in large capitals FSG at 2:15 given that you emerge from the
02:17:39 at 2:15 given that you emerge from the tower at 20 minutes past 2:00 and that was already on the board is it likely in your view that it was an F escheat the FS g called have been received before you encountered the lady answer yes
02:17:53 you encountered the lady answer yes totally wrong that I'll see ya well I'm just wondering did you actually see this wall yeah I was about to say this isn't the the wall I was referring to could ask right I was coming on to that the
02:18:05 ask right I was coming on to that the next photograph might be more useful one five eight one six
02:18:20 is that what you saw I see it in the top right-hand corner we can all see 183 daughter 21 or 22 as a category that is
02:18:33 daughter 21 or 22 as a category that is worth so and that is what you saw on the night after you spoken to the lady once yes thank you mr. Kenan can I go back to
02:18:44 yes thank you mr. Kenan can I go back to ask you about training and what training you received at Paddington what training did you receive and respect of the
02:18:55 did you receive and respect of the particular risks and procedures relating to high-rise firefighting we would just do practical drills in the yard and theoretical input on a PowerPoint when
02:19:07 theoretical input on a PowerPoint when that came around on the training diary so routine involves I couldn't tell you when we would do input that was given by the watch manager on the risks and techniques associated with progress why
02:19:19 techniques associated with progress why fine did they involve a lecture on breach of compartment ation and what to do should the breach occur no did you have anything which covered the particular risks posed by external
02:19:30 particular risks posed by external cladding in high-rise fires no do you recall any lecture on phenomena such as the qalander effect for example yes we are trying to find the vector and what are you taught in that regard just the
02:19:42 are you taught in that regard just the behavior of it what what entails and how it can act as far as I remember you do you recall any lectures that dealt with vertical and lateral fire spread and how
02:19:54 vertical and lateral fire spread and how best to combat that
02:19:58 that is the kind of pet isn't it but it sometimes it's feud more broadly there seems to be a so some are given a particular answer in some given general answer yeah I couldn't give you a
02:20:09 answer yeah I couldn't give you a specific time or date that I would have done a package on that if we did do you recall any lecture that dealt with how best to effect partial or total evacuation from high-rise buildings in
02:20:20 evacuation from high-rise buildings in the event of a fire no going back to the kissing equipment that you have on an F I you would it carry emergency lightly lighting yes but it carries the the real
02:20:35 lighting yes but it carries the the real and to set up the lighting and the lighting yes okay and was that lighting deployed on the evening know the lighting carried on the forest unit is
02:20:47 lighting carried on the forest unit is powered by generator so you'd have to get the cable reels up through its house if that was not done on the pumping appliances we carry battery-powered
02:20:58 appliances we carry battery-powered lighting which would have been better yeah could or should but rather on the evening would it be practicable to set up emergency lighting to assist people knowing for example in
02:21:09 to assist people knowing for example in the stairwell to aid visibility I'd say yes that could have been done but at the time I was in there wasn't it doesn't FIU carry equipment such as an emergency
02:21:21 FIU carry equipment such as an emergency extractor as in smoking straighter yes not would it carry hits such as axes that could be used to force entry into
02:21:33 that could be used to force entry into flats for example axes and breaking in gear occurred on all front line of fire fighting prices not air for use oh did you take up an axe No
02:21:51 the next topic I'd like to cover with you is the question of second masks for BA sets you mentioned in evidence that was a colleague who connected a second
02:22:02 was a colleague who connected a second master his BHS remember who it was Harry Benson James warping did guide Tillotson event Gallagher were part of a crew that who I know on my watch
02:22:14 crew that who I know on my watch they've performed that rescue using second personal connection you gave evidence regarding a conversation you had between firefighters Mills and
02:22:25 had between firefighters Mills and Campbell on the stairway Mills has said in his evidence that he told therefore a new crew that his task their task was to rescue a woman from flat 175
02:22:38 rescue a woman from flat 175 can you remember whether they specifically refer to flat 175 or not he could have done but I don't remember
02:22:47 only three more questions now mr. Gilliam first of all dealing with the MDT I asked you a question regarding its reliability and you said it's normally
02:22:59 reliability and you said it's normally pretty reliable we're going to hear evidence from Dean Roberts later on this afternoon and he says this quotes the the MDT often fails does that reflect
02:23:11 the MDT often fails does that reflect your experience do you agree with him
02:23:16 personally I found it pretty reliable but I sit in the back Dino has done a bit of acting up so he would use it more than I would we discussed together the
02:23:29 than I would we discussed together the quite the feasibility of the initial task you were given I to get to the roof and you and your statement said you felt it was doable quotes could I ask you to turn to your
02:23:41 quotes could I ask you to turn to your contemporaneous note I think it's behind the seconds have in your blue fumble and it's 3/4 of the way down the first page
02:23:57 it's 3/4 of the way down the first page where you say we knew about this start
02:24:02 stay tuned what he said I think it's staged isn't it today sorry that the conditions would be too bad on the roof and that we
02:24:14 be too bad on the roof and that we wouldn't have enough air to make it back down and the using line was not an option now looking back is the what you
02:24:25 option now looking back is the what you set out in your contemporaneous note it appears a bit more negative assessment of the prospects of the tasks to the roof I think that's why I paused to start when you asked me if they did this
02:24:37 start when you asked me if they did this was accurate I'd say a lot of this should be disregarded because I've just come off of the job that I was on for nearly twelve hours obviously not not
02:24:48 nearly twelve hours obviously not not sleep in that day there so and obviously still high on adrenaline so I just wrote this as quick as I could to get out of there to be honest so there were fair a reflection of your view is that which you've set out in your statement rather
02:24:59 you've set out in your statement rather than the contemporaneous yes finally there was the question of the weight of the FSG equipment that you carried for
02:25:12 the FSG equipment that you carried for the roof task how heavy was the four or five bags of equipment so you said FSG equipped I thought you there for you equipment sorry how heavy was it because I think you said you were carrying four
02:25:23 I think you said you were carrying four or five bags of equipment yeah not be personally I carried a bag which had matrix harnesses in it and Walter put two or three lamps or 45 mil hose in there in a branch so that bag
02:25:34 hose in there in a branch so that bag may have weighed maybe 40 to 50 kilo the total kit we've got to line bags a large bag which has got all the pulleys and systems in it to line bags that
02:25:47 systems in it to line bags that the harnesses and the hose I'd say between the five of us maybe around 70 to 80 kilos this may be an unfair question are you able to say how much heavier that kit is than the kit a
02:26:01 heavier that kit is than the kit a firefighter carrying as DBA that would be carrying with if he's if they're not carrying a line get quite a bit yes thank you mr. Gill thank you very much for your time and patience this
02:26:13 for your time and patience this afternoon it's much appreciated well miss Goodman it just remains for me to thank you very much for coming to give us your evidence was very help them to hear what was going on inside the tower and we're very great that you've
02:26:24 tower and we're very great that you've been coming along thank you very much and know you're free to go
02:26:38 no mister clearly sir there's one final witness for us today mr. Dean Roberts yeah he's travelling down from North Wales today I think he was assuming a 2
02:26:50 Wales today I think he was assuming a 2 o'clock start and so I don't think he's yet with us only just with us so sir in the circumstance was he told he would be honored to a block I think there was an
02:27:02 honored to a block I think there was an assumption or he was told that's right in that case I don't suppose he's quite ready to be short into the witness I suspect he's not no well can you give me any idea how long you think you might an
02:27:15 any idea how long you think you might an hour or so so we could take an early lunch come back at 2 o'clock without a fear of it was running the day yes that's what we'll do then answer well
02:27:27 that's what we'll do then answer well you've heard that mr. Roberts is coming but he's not expecting to give evidence into the 2 o'clock I think it'd be a bit discourteous to try and starting before lunch so we'll break now and we'll
02:27:38 lunch so we'll break now and we'll resume at 2 o'clock when we expect to see mr. Roberts thank you very much
02:27:50 you