Grenfell Tower Inquiry - Further London Fire Brigade evidence (2 August 2018 Pt 2 of 2) - Firefighter testimony regarding deployment to 10th floor, assisting casualties, and telephone conversation with trapped resident Zainab Dean.
00:00:02 [Music] yes facilities I think mr. bathroom those on his way very good
00:00:32 right mr. boat already to carry on yes I'm good thank you very much against mr. minute mr. Chen mr. battledore thank you very much for coming back to us can I ask you please to take up your statement and where we left off from
00:00:45 statement and where we left off from which is on the fourth page and in the middle of the page in the second paragraph you say we decide we then decided to make our way up to the next
00:00:57 decided to make our way up to the next floor
00:00:59 floor did anybody instruct you to do that or was that off your own bat that was not following back right why did you decide to go up to the next floor it's a C F on to C we could gain access
00:01:12 it's a C F on to C we could gain access on the 11th I see if we could help somebody else there right did you know of anybody needing help on the 11th of that stage mom no did you tell the bridgehead that that's where you were
00:01:23 bridgehead that that's where you were going no again through comms comms I was getting nothing back at all from constant did you try to tell the bridgehead or I try to contact them again there's nothing right
00:01:35 again there's nothing right is it what I mean would it be normal for the for the bridgehead not to know where you were in a tower block yeah well we're telling you listen and did you go
00:01:46 we're telling you listen and did you go up with the hoses and branch that you'd left outside or did you leave those where you've left them we didn't actually get up to the 11th we didn't
00:01:57 actually get up to the 11th we didn't actually get up to deliver before halfway on the stairs we didn't have the host:how or the branch with us were you intending to go up with the hose and branch no they were still on the floor
00:02:08 branch no they were still on the floor outside the door but it ain't right and then you say in the next sentence I saw the firefighter Dave Hill from my watch coming up and you go on to say that his
00:02:20 coming up and you go on to say that his but buddy was mad and she had helped another be a done with casualty is it out of procedure to separate from your buddy
00:02:30 buddy it's out of procedure he says okay and how do you say
00:02:44 Majid helps another be a crew down with a casualty how did you know that Dave had told us right firefight he went on when I asked where's where's Matt
00:02:55 when I asked where's where's Matt where's your body you explained that assisted a member crew right and he and he and he had gone down with other crew so it was that conversation while he was
00:03:08 so it was that conversation while he was standing in the stairwell outside the 10th floor lobby door yes it was yes and do you know who Maja's he was a standby form I think better things from Richmond he was standing by a foot him that night
00:03:19 he was standing by a foot him that night say he was on he was part of our crew right that evening so he was who Dave buddied up with right Gina is you know it matches her badges are he is he you
00:03:30 it matches her badges are he is he you see again what's what's his full name do you know it's fire mannequin perfect imagine yes and if you continue you say
00:03:44 therefore de Neil Dave and I made a team of three yes and then you go on to say we made our way up to the 11th floor but
00:03:56 we made our way up to the 11th floor but we hadn't even got up the stairs before we heard another firefighter screaming for help and you say I recognized him as coming from Soho and I could see that he was tired he had a woman who was
00:04:08 was tired he had a woman who was unconscious and I later found out that he had brought her down from the 18th or 19th floor and she had suddenly become unconscious and had become a dead weight that discussion did that discussion
00:04:21 that discussion did that discussion happen at the time or is this something that you found out later
00:04:26 right okay now that the firefighter you recognizes coming from Soho did you know who that was I recognized him at the
00:04:38 who that was I recognized him at the time yes you recognized you know did you know
00:04:41 know or do you know his name we we may have him down as being firefighter Adam Johnson does that ring a bell or help
00:04:53 Johnson does that ring a bell or help you did did that firefighter have a be a buddy with him no he was on his own
00:05:06 no was his whistle going do you remember I don't remember okay do you know where firefighter Hill went firefighter Hill said he's gonna proceed up but he's
00:05:20 said he's gonna proceed up but he's gonna carry a gun it would sound when none firefighter with the casually came where we came across the firefight with the catcher he you need assistance they've said I'm gonna carry on going up
00:05:31 they've said I'm gonna carry on going up to the next floor see if I can assist someone there okay did he as far as I know right he didn't follow us down so yes we do now just going on to the top of page
00:05:43 now just going on to the top of page five after you described in the old statement assisting with that casualty you say the firefighter from say who took took her legs by this time it was proper smoky when you say it was proper
00:05:56 proper smoky when you say it was proper smoky can you was it thicker smoke now in the stairwell and then you'd experienced when he first came into the stairwell from the tenth floor lobby yes
00:06:07 stairwell from the tenth floor lobby yes it was yeah we still had we still had visibility it wasn't it wasn't obvious thickest as we come in the tenth thriller lobby area so we
00:06:21 in the tenth thriller lobby area so we still had some visibility but the smoke had got a little bit darker thicker right we where were you exactly at that point were you still on the tenth floor we were in between the tenth and
00:06:33 we were in between the tenth and eleventh of stair water and did you have any idea of where the smoke which was now getting thicker as you say where it was coming from no and what color was it
00:06:46 was coming from no and what color was it yeah it got dark often when we first got to the tenth floor so um yeah progressed on Fonfon rock explain for my lighter gray so it's a darker gray smoke there
00:06:58 gray so it's a darker gray smoke there it wasn't me like I said we still had we still had a bit of visibility he wasn't it wasn't complete thank you in the next paragraph in your sentence on page four your parent anyone you know statement on
00:07:09 your parent anyone you know statement on page five you say as the three of us were taking the woman down I saw a mobile phone in amongst a pile of clothes I shaped I shouted out to grab the phone I knew it was somebody's property and it would have it would have
00:07:21 property and it would have it would have their photos on and it may help to identify someone however by this time we've gone too far to reach the phone and we couldn't stop as we had to get the unconscious woman out did you did
00:07:34 the unconscious woman out did you did you tell anybody later that there was an abandoned mobile
00:07:40 it's rang out in my head as if I was going past it I don't even know why she shouted out in a physical sense but I shall do my own head get the phone get phone that someone's at someone's
00:07:52 phone that someone's at someone's property that someone's belonging just to get it
00:08:01 and you say you when you went down and then you described the descent in the next paragraph in djenne in general terms can you describe for us the conditions on the stairs as you descend it the air was some limits why found
00:08:16 it the air was some limits why found when I was making making our way up yeah firefighters were trying to get up the stairs right on various tasks never trying to make way for us equipment was
00:08:29 trying to make way for us equipment was on the floor which we were stumbling which is causing us to stumble plus the the thought of trying to get his
00:08:40 the thought of trying to get his casualty out it's fresh air as quick as we can to give them you know a chance to look over it's you know we were trying
00:08:52 look over it's you know we were trying to move as fast as we could get past other firefighters get past equipment clothes in just to get them out of building looking at the air condition
00:09:04 building looking at the air condition the condition of the air the breathability of the air as you descended did it did it change at all I don't recall it changing it was some it was smoky especially around 4/5
00:09:18 it was smoky especially around 4/5 anything we get clearer until sort of fun we were reaching the bridge a road
00:09:28 on the way down did you notice whether any of the lobby doors were open notice you didn't look into any of the lobbies did not like you now on page five in the
00:09:39 did not like you now on page five in the third paragraph you say the stairwell felt very chaotic but we managed to get the woman out past the bridge head to the ground floor but did you know where
00:09:53 the ground floor but did you know where the bridge head was at that point at that point in time no we just didn't even stop to discuss or talk to anyone at the bridge head we just made our way
00:10:04 at the bridge head we just made our way straight down to the ground floor right into the lobby area and to the front entrance in desperation to get out casually enter some fresh air when you
00:10:17 casually enter some fresh air when you went down did you go past where the bridge head had been on the second floor do you remember yes we would have found that was the only stairwell to get out there somebody would have gone past it
00:10:29 there somebody would have gone past it and at that point in time I didn't know it's going to pitch had it move torn up right okay you you say that you you past the bridge head to the ground floor and
00:10:41 the bridge head to the ground floor and then you go on a little bit later two paragraphs on from that to say that you exited the building does that mean do we
00:10:52 exited the building does that mean do we take from that you bypass the bridge head with the casualty when accessing the outside of the building that's correct yeah we didn't didn't actually
00:11:03 correct yeah we didn't didn't actually exit the building we made our way to the to the lobby to the front door in the lobby ground floor lobby yeah where we passed the conscious casualty to to a
00:11:14 passed the conscious casualty to to a couple of firefighters that didn't have any beer on that so that's it that we exactly cash we to paramedics it I see it's just in the
00:11:26 paramedics it I see it's just in the next paragraph you say outside the block there were firefighters summit VA and some without we've passed a woman the woman to a firefighter without BA for him to take her to the paramedics yes we were in slight the door I see the
00:11:37 were in slight the door I see the doorway and I right outside the door wait just just outside the doorway - and did you wait in foster pass so I could see them right and when you got down to the ground floor did you notice them where the bridge
00:11:49 did you notice them where the bridge head was or whether it was on the ground floor by that stage no and in the process of taking the unconscious casualty to the front door of the
00:12:00 casualty to the front door of the building and handing her to the next firefighter does that mean that you hadn't gone past the bridge head and and then tallied tell it back in no we've
00:12:11 then tallied tell it back in no we've done we've obviously gone past the bridge head because I hadn't noticed it so a compost at some point but I had no communication with the bridge head as of yet I hadn't reported what we're done
00:12:24 yet I hadn't reported what we're done I'm done and handed my collected money back vari is at that point just to get that that lady to to to help yes so at
00:12:36 that that lady to to to help yes so at that point nobody at the bridgehead would know where you were is that right that's correct nobody at the bridgehead would know whether the deployment to flat 74 would
00:12:48 whether the deployment to flat 74 would have been successful depends whether they picked up my message out sent earlier on quite a berry cylinder
00:13:00 yes see you then say it on page five in the sixth paragraph which is the next
00:13:11 the sixth paragraph which is the next one down by this point I was running low on air so I took my mask off I then returned to the bridgehead to report what I had done and what I hadn't done the bridgehead had now moved from the
00:13:22 the bridgehead had now moved from the second floor to the third floor Neil and I collected RBA Tallis to register that we were out of the fire I informed them that we were unable to enter the 10th floor now does that mean
00:13:37 enter the 10th floor now does that mean that you were still under air when you'd come down and handed the casualty to the firefighter at the main goal that's correct yes we were still under a consumer passed the cash we took a fire
00:13:50 consumer passed the cash we took a fire fight so we move to you na s right why was that why were you still under air because we really done taking a casualty from in between your ten eleven football
00:14:01 from in between your ten eleven football under it and we carried up all the way down we didn't stop to to take our sets off stop to do have any communications we just got a straight down to find
00:14:13 we just got a straight down to find enough building now you say as I just read to you you return to the bridgehead to report did you look for the
00:14:24 to report did you look for the bridgehead or did somebody tell you that it was now on the third floor now we've got your end of where time as about 2:30
00:14:35 got your end of where time as about 2:30 3:00 a.m.
00:14:37 3:00 a.m. Oh 2:30 3:00 a.m. does that sound about right to you given that your tally tally out the time in other words the time we
00:14:48 out the time in other words the time we left the bridgehead was about 217 yeah yes and when you got to the bridge floor that the bridge had on the third floor
00:14:59 that the bridge had on the third floor who was running it do you remember no I don't was it do you remember where that was still the officers who heard I've
00:15:10 was still the officers who heard I've been operating the entry control when you deployed I genuinely cannot remember who on a port so we've got direct to the entry control board but I don't object
00:15:21 entry control board but I don't object to them and again at that part of the memory has gone straight from my head we were halfway through debriefing I was halfway through explaining on conditions
00:15:34 halfway through explaining on conditions on the ten cabin let's get to class only four and then I was halfway through that collected my tally and that's when a fire fire came
00:15:46 tally and that's when a fire fire came tumbling down stairs with scrub your so on his hands and she like fell on top of us and so straightaway focus that was redirected again
00:16:02 and you say that you reported to the bridgehead as we see in the next sentence you say Neil and I collected RBA Tallis to register that we were out
00:16:14 RBA Tallis to register that we were out of the fire I am three of them we were unable to enter the 10th floor do you rap do you remember who you were debriefing - no and you don't remember
00:16:25 debriefing - no and you don't remember whether it was the same entry control officer or bridgehead commanders as was on the second floor did you say anything to the bridgehead about the female casualty that you'd assisted down the
00:16:36 casualty that you'd assisted down the stairs by the time I think I managed literally just to get out that that we we couldn't gain access to that hit festival I think uglies you just got
00:16:48 festival I think uglies you just got that out right out of conditions on its end that we couldn't get there a get another word out that's when we were involved in another situation okay so do you know whether or not the bridgehead
00:16:59 you know whether or not the bridgehead then redeployed a crew to flat 74 did you in the short time and it sounds like
00:17:10 you in the short time and it sounds like you were at the bridger did you see any far survival guidance information being recorded there now you then say as you just told us and this is in the last
00:17:21 just told us and this is in the last paragraph on page 5 of your office statement as I was explaining the situation a firefighter came down with a young girl and fell on top of us I said I would get her out so I took her to the ground level I was no longer with Neil
00:17:32 ground level I was no longer with Neil and you go on to describe some details sir my question is is is is is this did you ask her which flat she'd come from no she was in a young she was conscious
00:17:46 no she was in a young she was conscious yes but she was in a very young traumatic State but she was crying heavily and she just kept calling out for a moment that
00:17:59 for a moment that did you pass any information to the bridgehead about about the little girl no was there was there an opportunity to do that now again a firefighter I bought
00:18:13 do that now again a firefighter I bought her down I took the casualty and then my game mop worried from that point was to get her outside right to receive
00:18:24 get her outside right to receive treatment do you say
00:18:37 that in the same paragraph there was debris falling from the building so you put your helmet on the little girl just so that said that we're clear did you take her out of the main entrance on the south side or another
00:18:50 entrance on the south side or another entrance I believe it was the main the main entrance exits outside right and how long roughly after you heard after
00:19:04 how long roughly after you heard after the end of where time do you think you took her out of the building it was almost immediately what he was I shut down my set and the ground floor lobby
00:19:18 down my set and the ground floor lobby after we passed the adult casually we pulled down so you fight waiting firefighters it's my shot my sit down then I went straight back up to the bridge head to UM click what Sally and
00:19:31 bridge head to UM click what Sally and report what happened and he was at that point like that like I explained offer a food debriefing that this girl came downstairs with the firefighter well I mean took her immediately
00:19:42 mean took her immediately straight out so you shut your sit down before you went back to the bridge head to Colette eternal s correct I see is that normal yes it is okay and you you
00:19:56 that normal yes it is okay and you you took her out of the main entrance as you said was there any system in place at that stage to protect casualties coming out of the building from the falling debris that stage now okay and I think
00:20:09 debris that stage now okay and I think you say you took it to a paramedic area by the leisure center is that right yes yes um odd we're not we're not first come in the building I hadn't seen any
00:20:20 come in the building I hadn't seen any paramedics so I didn't know I didn't know where this treatment area was no so as I come out to building on remember Sharon to someone where the paramedics and all her hard back was there over the
00:20:32 and all her hard back was there over the back and they kind of pointed in a general direction I didn't have a clue where that was God wasn't familiar with fun with with that with
00:20:43 familiar with fun with with that with that area ground so I'll swing in that direction of where they pointed so it probably took me a good five minutes maybe a little bit
00:20:55 good five minutes maybe a little bit longer five to seven minutes actually find the paramedic station
00:21:01 luckily the goal like I said was conscious the young guy was conscious and then we've been just heavily um traumatized and upset and around her
00:21:16 traumatized and upset and around her mouth and eyes must trying to wash that away with a bottle of water I picked up officer school watch better paramedics
00:21:27 officer school watch better paramedics well when you go on to say that you found you found the family and you were able to reunite them yeah when we young she she was crying
00:21:41 yeah when we young she she was crying out I've left my mom my mom my dad and I think it was a brother I think I think she said back on one job saying but but they didn't they left them in there I've left them behind when we eventually come
00:21:55 left them behind when we eventually come to the paramedics area they were run they were crying on a on a lost pieces are falling and on and she needed she just pointed at them and and they jump
00:22:07 just pointed at them and and they jump up and came to grab them off me beautiful
00:22:15 let's take a minute
00:22:18 you okay yeah you can take me potato
00:22:27 and I'm now going to turn to a different subject which is telephone conversation you had with a female in the tower yay
00:22:40 you had with a female in the tower yay you okay to continue that is exactly I hope just to give her a warning to those presently I'm going to be discussing something that make people may find a little distressing very distressing so
00:22:51 little distressing very distressing so if anybody does not want to hear about the evidence about the discussion between this dis witness and and Zainab Dean then perhaps they should leave now all right can I just say to mr. Batra
00:23:04 all right can I just say to mr. Batra voice if at any point you feel that it would be helpful to you to have a break please just now if we look at your
00:23:17 please just now if we look at your statement on page six in the third paragraph fourth main paragraph which is
00:23:28 paragraph fourth main paragraph which is where it starts you you say you made your way back to the front of the building to see what needed doing next and then you go on to describe how you saw somebody on the phone
00:23:43 the first question I have it do you remember exactly where he was the man with the telephone yeah he was on he was he was probably standing about 10 15
00:23:55 he was probably standing about 10 15 foot away from the front entrance of the authy of the main funders of the tower I was southeast corner it far away just redoing redoing my set right and are you
00:24:11 redoing redoing my set right and are you able to help us with the time with which you first saw him working back working forward I suppose from your end of where time of to 33 okay so
00:24:27 we're working to 33 and when I received money back out there behaved audience then I'm guessing like I said took me roughly five to 10 minutes to take on
00:24:40 roughly five to 10 minutes to take on the young girl to the paramedics station paramedic area from there I walked just to have my set on I walked straight down
00:24:52 to have my set on I walked straight down to the southeast corner so maybe five minutes tops so so maybe another another twenty minutes or so
00:25:03 another another twenty minutes or so after my shutdown time
00:25:10 me now but do you need to put this to you but we we have a nine nine nine call from a female in flat one one three with
00:25:23 from a female in flat one one three with a baby at time two three seventeen he was told to leave so that and that's that's a conversation we have with that time on it does that help you knowing
00:25:36 time on it does that help you knowing what the call you had with her involved does it help you put the time on your conversation with her or the starting point of yours call with her more
00:25:48 point of yours call with her more accurately massively but that could sounds like I would be around start on
00:25:59 now in your statement in the fifth paragraph on page six you say I took the fame from Francis that was the man's
00:26:12 fame from Francis that was the man's name courageous and spoke to the woman she said my name is Xena and with my son I'm on the 14th floor that one one five
00:26:25 I'm on the 14th floor that one one five I said stay on the phone to me just just pausing there do you remember and any watch managers
00:26:36 do you remember and any watch managers being you refer to watch manager for Tom Fennell but other than him do you remember any other watch manager being nearby
00:26:46 [Music] do you remember somebody called watch manager culturist from Shoreditch it was it was he was a it was a real heavy
00:27:01 it was he was a it was a real heavy dynamic scene of operations there were other firefighters running around there was other watch managers running around other just so as in specifics did I see
00:27:13 other just so as in specifics did I see this particular person I can't look on hydro sensei how confident are you that you heard let's say one one five again now that's why that's why I remembered
00:27:27 now that's why that's why I remembered the following morning after
00:27:31 yes okay
00:27:42 watch manager culturist has given us a statement and he has said that he's checked he checked with the bridgehead that they were aware that Xena was in flat one one three in fact not one one
00:27:54 flat one one three in fact not one one five they're not the number that I gave the watch manager outside yes when I when I first took the call within within
00:28:08 when I first took the call within within 30 seconds of taking that call I reported it immediately to the nearest watch manage that I saw who I believed to be gone for them I believe he was
00:28:21 to be gone for them I believe he was dealing with FSG calls outside the building on out I think I think he was using a large being a larger risk who's been had sheets of paper all over the top of it I went
00:28:32 paper all over the top of it I went straight to that person there and explained to them I've got I've got the lady to you off stun in flat River there's one more field one more fight
00:28:43 there's one more field one more fight wherever she told me at that time I believe that immediately right so whether ten or so hours 12 hours later I've wrote and down remember there's one
00:28:54 I've wrote and down remember there's one more one more five but the number the flat number she gave me I gave that directly to her watch manager said would have been created at that time right when you come back to that in just a
00:29:05 when you come back to that in just a moment I'm sorry to explore this in a bit of a bit of detail but did to be cleared did she say that she was in would you remember that she said she was
00:29:16 would you remember that she said she was in flat one one three oh sorry in flat one one five although she lived at flat one one five no she didn't say she didn't specifically say I live here she
00:29:28 didn't specifically say I live here she just says I said sir immediately where are you right what's wrong you on what what flattering look and you say in
00:29:40 what what flattering look and you say in your statement just came back to watch manager Tom Fennell was dealing the first survival calls from the position outside the building so I asked his advice we have you say phenol in fact we
00:29:52 advice we have you say phenol in fact we have a watch manager Thomas fernell that's how this has been written out incorrect people that's okay and yeah this is not my wording asked his advice isn't my why didn't
00:30:04 asked his advice isn't my why didn't either reported that call to him basically now you've described just a minute ago what he was doing outside the building working on a large bin with
00:30:15 building working on a large bin with sheets of paper all over the top of it you've said to us did you know what he was actually doing did you see what he was doing I'm English I remember asking him I'm in a sense we are you doing FSG
00:30:27 him I'm in a sense we are you doing FSG he calls right and he said yes well you know and I'm report that thought I said have you got this floor this flat and he had a look and he said to me immediately
00:30:38 had a look and he said to me immediately we've got that report down we've got them already right reported do you remember what he looked at in order to confirm no he would go link that record
00:30:49 confirm no he would go link that record your Beauford have been where he had his some sheets of a box spread out what happened what system he had in place or how he had it organized them I'm 100% sure of but he looked at what he had in
00:31:02 sure of but he looked at what he had in front of him and it's it's me yet we've got that reported we've got that ready you used to follow that up you say you had sheets of he had sheets of papers spread out did you recognize those sheets of paper
00:31:14 did you recognize those sheets of paper as a particular form not who were they control information forms do I can't I couldn't tell what they were right did you know where he was getting his information from no okay did you see
00:31:27 his information from no okay did you see who he was giving his information to no he had um he had a few firefighters around him what would normally happen is
00:31:38 around him what would normally happen is there'd be used as well as run their special night out where radio comms may not be the best form of communication I'll take you using in dramas okay again
00:31:49 I'll take you using in dramas okay again hundred percent confirm that but did he have any other watch managers with him or helping him or participating in that exercise of cool
00:32:11 do you remember if the flat for which watch manager fernell said he had first thought was that for Zeynep was was 1 1 3 or 1 1 5 he said I just remember
00:32:23 3 or 1 1 5 he said I just remember giving him the information that pom does I never give him me immediately and him immediately confirm me we've got that recorded already know about that call
00:32:35 recorded already know about that call when he said he had it recorded all you know but he knew about that call did what did you understand by that I understood that what I took from that
00:32:47 understood that what I took from that was that someone in a flat in scy-lab if anyone else was in there I had made a made a cool 999 call and that and that the information given was then given to
00:33:00 the information given was then given to the fire ground and that was um recorded ever as they FSG cool so I took it as though we knew there were people in that flat whom we needed to go and help and missions were being carried out
00:33:12 help and missions were being carried out to dinner did you gain any understanding from what he said to you that firefighters had already been deployed to that that flat no I didn't know ok when you say you asked watch manager
00:33:26 when you say you asked watch manager Fennell fernell for advice what advice were you looking for that's worded you incorrectly I did I never said that in my statement that's wearing it incorrectly I've not seen my statement
00:33:37 incorrectly I've not seen my statement but um but it's that's not why I said in the recording I was always report in a situation to him and he was in HD it was that quick that dynamic it was literary so I've got it's lady on the phone on
00:33:51 so I've got it's lady on the phone on this floor in this flat which is River to you off son and then he had a look he said yeah we've got that and down already Chris and then that was might be in my dealings with him a particular time did watchman as your
00:34:08 particular time did watchman as your fern will tell you anything else
00:34:14 at that point just standing back from the specifics of this conversation that moment did you know how far firefighters were getting up into the building at
00:34:26 were getting up into the building at that point when you were speaking to watch manager film was the lady still on the telephone I was notified that it's down the phone okay at this stage and
00:34:42 down the phone okay at this stage and again we can't be specific about timing did you know what the advice being given to residents generally inside the building was she sets me
00:34:53 building was she sets me soon-ja spoke to what's managers on for now I stepped away from his scene hand-on and she said to me we can't get out we've been sold to stay in flat we
00:35:06 out we've been sold to stay in flat we can't get out we can't get out we've been told to stay in yeah so I took the stapler policy was there in place right did you get the impression from what he
00:35:17 did you get the impression from what he said to you that she was trapped in the flat yes I did
00:35:22 but she also said to see that she was told to stay in the flat yes but both yes both I just come down from from the auto I've already been in the building I
00:35:35 auto I've already been in the building I saw the conditions were like in the lobby that I was sent to good I had no other beliefs and it wasn't like that one on on any of the other foot rules so
00:35:48 one on on any of the other foot rules so she said to me she can't get out I was taking it that she's trapped in that flat and she is just following the stay-put advice right the statehood
00:36:00 stay-put advice right the statehood advice it would be wouldn't be given normally would it to select somebody who was or was trapped and had no choice it would it would still be given because
00:36:12 would it would still be given because you have to when people are stuck in a situation where they are literally pitch fight for their life they would sometimes and not make the best decision
00:36:23 sometimes and not make the best decision so even though they can see maybe the atmosphere outside that door means help to stay put it would be a reassurance to them sometimes people would panic and maybe want to make a run fret at to
00:36:35 maybe want to make a run fret at to chart its trunk out even though that may not be the best thing to do at that particular time so even even though it's it may seem obvious to people who don't
00:36:46 it may seem obvious to people who don't understand that waits and stay put when they conk out you still have to reassure them by telling them that writer for it so the stay-put to a track person is given by where
00:36:58 to a track person is given by where reassurance run this by way of advice is take serious they will literally yes
00:37:11 now looking at your statement on page six in the last paragraph
00:37:27 you advise her halfway down to go to the least smokey room shut the door and put clothing down at the bottom of the door and to lie on the floor and put clothing around her little boy's face did did you
00:37:42 around her little boy's face did did you consider advising her or helping her to assess whether it was safe to to leave no I took her word that she could get
00:37:55 no I took her word that she could get out her flat so now my my aim was to try and keep her as um safe her son as safe
00:38:06 and keep her as um safe her son as safe as possible until why I believed we would get in and help her did she tell you what the conditions look were like
00:38:17 you what the conditions look were like in the flat I remember saying it is like smokey at that time okay that you say at that time that's at the start of the conversation witness did she speak of
00:38:29 conversation witness did she speak of fire in the flat [Music]
00:38:38 now I want just to ask you about some timing questions a lot of the bottom of the page page six you described there
00:38:52 the page page six you described there what you say to her she says to you and then you say at the top of page seven I was on the phone saying this to her for 30 to 35 minutes I was gagging to
00:39:07 for 30 to 35 minutes I was gagging to hear the door getting kicked in I was just waiting to hear someone shout cavity to signal that they've been found on the tiny issue 30 to 35 minutes when
00:39:19 on the tiny issue 30 to 35 minutes when in your recollection does that time period start is that from the start of your conversation with them yeah they
00:39:31 your conversation with them yeah they said oh man yeah do you say Fonfon then it was just a case of strong really sure I understand the fight of our right and
00:39:46 I understand the fight of our right and during that period of time did you say where were you physically follow some I was around the southeast corner at our
00:39:58 with Frances Dean [Music]
00:40:04 [Music] I was pause one minute hours of it I was sat on the floor next minute I was pacing but all the time Francis we even use around the vicinity
00:40:17 Francis we even use around the vicinity as well I was trying to keep my own hit at the same time because he was obviously very upset an animated man asked I was worried he was gonna try
00:40:29 asked I was worried he was gonna try making one for the tower and sauce tryna make sure I had my eye on him as well just as confident during this period of times 30 to 35 minute period you speak
00:40:40 times 30 to 35 minute period you speak of did you have any further discussion with contact with watch manager fernell did you have any have any discussion with anybody else who was dealing with
00:40:51 with anybody else who was dealing with FS jeans the bridgehead yeah did you did you look for any updates as to the
00:41:03 you look for any updates as to the progress firefighters were but making to get to that flat
00:41:12 until one night and so I believe her sons were possible
00:41:25 and that's I think something you you cover in the next paragraph of the statement is that right yes and in the second line you refer to 30 to 35
00:41:37 second line you refer to 30 to 35 minutes is that the same 30 to 35 minutes that you refer to in the first paragraph on that page yes
00:41:53 and then you were you say that you we passed the phone back to Frances and there was a conversation you described there and then he passed the phone back to you again is that right yes that June
00:42:06 to you again is that right yes that June then fourth a first initial faith everybody meets Jeremiah I could hear luckily the both coughing and crying and
00:42:18 luckily the both coughing and crying and it was it was about a thirty five million mark that home designer told me her son's dead he's done he's dead and
00:42:30 her son's dead he's done he's dead and not gonna be here anymore and I'm gonna be with him and it was at that point you know how to try and tell us not to be like don't you know you ain't giving up
00:42:41 like don't you know you ain't giving up on me now
00:42:42 on me now don't talk like that stick you know use you carry on fight him bang done and he was then that I thought for just she
00:42:54 was then that I thought for just she needs to hear someone's voice parts as his voice and not two sets of France's because he wasn't next to me hidden here while I was listening to he didn't know
00:43:06 while I was listening to he didn't know what was going on but itis it to him to tell her you love her tell me you love i Frances and come on fightin and you're waiting for and I helped the phone to his head and he and he did he said you said that to
00:43:18 he and he did he said you said that to her and and before before she could say anything to him knocked up will define back and I've spent well I see is people
00:43:29 back and I've spent well I see is people waiting for you speak without here waiting for you that love you don't give up on us now
00:43:38 turn fight we have a break I think you could do with a break okay if you want to carry only it's this this doesn't go anywhere this it's a very difficult
00:43:49 anywhere this it's a very difficult thing for you to talk about I'd quite understand that have you nearly got to the end of this particular section of your questions we're quite interested in so we just finished this subject and then we will have been carrying yes please don't I'm
00:44:02 have been carrying yes please don't I'm sure yes can you estimate even roughly how long
00:44:09 how long Francis was on the phone to zina in when you gave it with the six seconds right it's enough time to say what what I'm saying then not took it right took you
00:44:22 saying then not took it right took you straight back you you then
00:44:29 [Music] say in the next paragraph when I took the phone back I could hear her coughing I could hear other sounds like banging
00:44:42 I could hear other sounds like banging in the background and I kept thinking that the firefighters had reached him
00:44:49 did you have any idea of what those those sounds in the background were now um could you hear anybody else in the background in the flat didn't see no now
00:45:05 background in the flat didn't see no now you then go on to say in the next sentence I spent another 35 to 40 minutes on the phone to her in total
00:45:16 minutes on the phone to her in total that is that another 35 to 40 minutes in addition to the initial 35 to 40 minutes we've talked about already yes give her some it was at that point laughter I
00:45:31 some it was at that point laughter I took the phone back from France's that's when I went to watch manager for now again it's just to ask him where are we
00:45:42 again it's just to ask him where are we where are we where we are we do tell we're nearly there we nearly out of her yet and you cover that in the third line of the third paragraph on page 7 of your statement
00:45:53 paragraph on page 7 of your statement and when you say where are we what were you asking him I was asking the one I wanted to know I wanted to do need assurance that someone's been deployed
00:46:04 assurance that someone's been deployed sir and if we had any any feedback of where they were I don't care non what did he say to you he just looked at me
00:46:16 did he say to you he just looked at me and shook his head and said I'm really sorry Chris we ain't getting past the 12th at a moment right
00:46:25 is that the first time you heard that yes it was yeah
00:46:35 was that the first update you'd had from watch manager Pharrell since you've been on the phone yes it was oh yeah
00:46:45 they I think you remained on the line Tuesday no after watch manager Fernando told you this do you remember how much have much longer if it had been at least
00:46:57 have much longer if it had been at least number 30 35
00:47:16 and then in the last parent that in the last paragraph
00:47:22 you described hearing say no and then you describe some screaming and then you say
00:47:33 describe some screaming and then you say when it stopped I knew that was it I hung up the phone the whole phone call lasted about an hour and a quarter that estimate of an hour and a quarter do you think that's right in the litem fee I'd
00:47:46 think that's right in the litem fee I'd say so yeah 35 - 35 there's a point he was about halfway through the call that we um we got disconnected right hand on
00:48:03 we um we got disconnected right hand on literally for seconds cuz art supposed to be called straightaway again and then she answered that must have been around around the halfway stage we've come to scan it did hold her up again straight
00:48:14 scan it did hold her up again straight away and then I remember it being at least another 40 plus minutes right past that so you call them you were able to call her back with ease immediately yes
00:48:34 and then afterwards you I think led Frances to the paramedics area yes done
00:48:44 for about ten minutes of that phone call the line was quiet she stopped coffee I
00:48:57 stayed on the line in case you could still hear me it was so and it wasn't until about ten minutes that I got
00:49:11 until about ten minutes that I got confirmation I think that she passed away from walking here and and the phone then went silent again completely and a
00:49:24 then went silent again completely and a few minutes after that I um I put a phone I disconnected the lie so my fancy is that we I think the battery must have
00:49:37 is that we I think the battery must have gone and xanax phone must have become disconnected again continuing what I was listening to
00:49:49 you didn't need to know that right there and then I didn't feel right here one knee and then he was just asking where
00:50:00 knee and then he was just asking where are you have you gotten either you got and that's felt like I need to get him away from the building really because we were both standing here watching he
00:50:12 were both standing here watching he affects her far in the building so I took him up to the leisure center where I knew the police were and on a Speights
00:50:23 I knew the police were and on a Speights him officer who he was and he was waiting for somebody to come out - building a family members commander building and gave him his phone back and
00:50:34 building and gave him his phone back and Don and and yeah and then maybe officer - scored him - even inside the leisure center or somewhere else where they were
00:50:46 center or somewhere else where they were waiting for news on their family Oh
00:50:50 before that I've got his on I've got to bite down on a bit no paper I had
00:50:57 Zeppelin Jeremias name pages contact details before what yeah gave him some police can I show you the piece of paper
00:51:10 police can I show you the piece of paper to see whether that corresponds with your recollection of what he wrote down it's lfb quadruple zero one nine six eight
00:51:18 eight please mr. documents director its page 17 in it
00:51:32 this is a looks like a firefighters notebook piece of paper that's his phone number yeah yeah that was that's the piece of paper is it can you see on it
00:51:44 piece of paper is it can you see on it it says one one five arrow 1 1 3 do you remember seeing that nothing no that was added he wrote their names down and their ages his name and phone number
00:51:55 their ages his name and phone number I see and you think 1 1 5 2 1 1 3 was added later to I believe so yes do you remember seeing it without that number those notations on it no do you remember you remember seeing it but without those
00:52:07 you remember seeing it but without those notice sorry let's understand did that piece of paper did he give you that piece of paper um I took it I ripped it from one notepad yes but if you wanna
00:52:19 from one notepad yes but if you wanna see those you all know yes it says yesterday and then he wrote the details down and after on giving him his phone back and lift him in in charge really
00:52:33 back and lift him in in charge really fun and I took that bit of paper and took it to the commode unit that will I believe was dealing with the Air Force Eagles I went in and explain to them who
00:52:48 Eagles I went in and explain to them who these people were okay that bit paper today
00:52:53 do did you see what they did with it did you have any further contact with watch manager Fernau did he have any further contact with anybody on the ground on
00:53:06 contact with anybody on the ground on the night about that particular incident no just people asking you okay and can I just ask you a question going back to
00:53:18 just ask you a question going back to the conversation you had with her did they now tell you whether anybody else was in the flat she didn't
00:53:30 was in the flat she didn't apart from herself did she tell you that whether anybody had been evacuated previously from their flat
00:53:41 previously from their flat [Music]
00:53:48 pre manager battled oh I'm very grateful to you I've no further questions for you it may be appropriate to take a short break because there may be one or two things that I've missed I just want to cover but would you bear with me we'll
00:54:05 cover but would you bear with me we'll have a breakdown in any event it may be there'll be a few further questions for you would have to see when you come back to evidence together the auction will
00:54:18 to evidence together the auction will resume at five past three
00:54:29 right five mile street please
00:54:40 you
01:02:06 I gotta have one more question I do mr. chairman yes right mr. that from those
01:02:18 chairman yes right mr. that from those on his way back thank you
01:02:38 all right mr. Basch illegal so I think there's only one more question to come but we'll see yes mr. bachelor thank you for coming back my question is this when you were
01:02:50 back my question is this when you were on the telephone to to Zainab and having this discussion with her did she tell you at any stage that she'd been moved into the flat she was in from another
01:03:01 into the flat she was in from another flat no she didn't okay that's my question right so I just want to say now finally thank you very much
01:03:12 finally thank you very much we manage a better thought to you forgiving what cannot have been easy evidence I'm extremely grateful to you for coming here and assisting us with our investigations we really do appreciate it enormously so thank you
01:03:23 appreciate it enormously so thank you thank you and I'd like to echo mr. minutes words of thanks I think it must have taken a lot of courage to come here and talk about those experiences in public and I and I'm sure a lot of other
01:03:34 public and I and I'm sure a lot of other people in this room they're very grateful to you for having done so thank you very much indeed
01:03:50 [Music]
01:03:56 then mr. millet no more witnesses for the time being no but can I just this yes there may be some housekeeping matters well there may be in the else
01:04:07 matters well there may be in the else would see but before we get to those I think that as the inquiry is about to adjourn for the month of August this seems to me to be an appropriate time to
01:04:18 seems to me to be an appropriate time to take stock of progress of the evidence gathering so far and also to outline the timetable the remainder of phase one as
01:04:30 timetable the remainder of phase one as you all know hearings began on the 21st of May with the commemorations held that the Millennium Hotel in South Kensington and apart from a short break during the
01:04:42 and apart from a short break during the second week of June have continued without interruption normally we've sat to hear evidence from Monday to Thursday between 10:00 o'clock and 4:15 but on
01:04:53 between 10:00 o'clock and 4:15 but on many occasion weaves we have in fact sat on Friday and often hearings have started at half past 9:00 in the morning in order to keep up the momentum we had
01:05:06 in order to keep up the momentum we had originally planned to complete the firefighters evidence including that of the senior officers of the London Fire Brigade when the end of this month I'm sorry the end of July and so it be in a
01:05:19 sorry the end of July and so it be in a position to start taking evidence from the former residents of the tower and others in September however as you will realize the process of taking evidence
01:05:30 realize the process of taking evidence from the firefighters will now need to continue after the summer break there are a number of reasons for that in the first place it's notoriously difficult
01:05:41 first place it's notoriously difficult to predict how long any witness will take more significantly however it's turned out that many of the witnesses from whom we've heard have had
01:05:52 from whom we've heard have had more to tell us then was apparent from their statements that one result of that is that is often been necessary for counsel to pursue lines of inquiry that
01:06:04 counsel to pursue lines of inquiry that became apparent only in the course of the witnesses evidence or from evidence given by earlier witnesses and to pursue useful lines of inquiry is of course the
01:06:16 useful lines of inquiry is of course the whole purpose of the inquiry added to that is the fact that from time to time it's been necessary to take more frequent or in some cases rather longer
01:06:27 frequent or in some cases rather longer breaks in the hearings to accommodate witnesses personal positions and I should perhaps add to that that the number of firefighters who have been
01:06:39 number of firefighters who have been called and will have been called to give evidence in person that has grown in response to requests from some of the core participants it's also right to
01:06:51 core participants it's also right to mention that since the start of the phase one hearings there's been substantial further disclosure of documents and photographs to the inquiry by the lfb and through the Metropolitan
01:07:05 by the lfb and through the Metropolitan Police and the police have disclosed further firefighter statements and exhibits the new materials have had to be considered by the inquiry team and
01:07:16 be considered by the inquiry team and disclosed to core participants and then put to the witnesses where necessary all that has increased the time taken to examine the witnesses and in some cases
01:07:28 examine the witnesses and in some cases has made it necessary to call further witnesses all these factors have played a part in setting the original timetable back by a few weeks hearing further
01:07:42 back by a few weeks hearing further firefighters evidence that September will probably take up much if not all of that month so we now expect to hear evidence from former residents of the tower during October and the expert
01:07:56 tower during October and the expert evidence in the first half of November
01:08:01 we expect to complete the hearing all the evidence relevant to phase one before the end of the year and then to be in a position to deliver a report early in the new year but I'm pleased to
01:08:15 early in the new year but I'm pleased to say that progress of work on Phase two which is continuing in parallel with phase one should not be significantly affected by the delay we shall continue
01:08:29 affected by the delay we shall continue to provide more information about the timetable for the proceedings upon the enquiry website over the coming months in the light of the progress so far I
01:08:41 in the light of the progress so far I come to the view that there should be a further procedural hearing at the beginning of the next session indeed at half past 9:00 on Monday the third of
01:08:53 half past 9:00 on Monday the third of September before we resume taking evidence the hearing will have to be short I'm going to allow a maximum of an hour and a half so that the evidence
01:09:06 hour and a half so that the evidence that is already a timetable to be heard on that day can be completed within the day it would be very unfortunate if we were to start losing time on the first day of the next session the hearing will
01:09:19 day of the next session the hearing will cover four particular matters first the nature of and the limits on the evidence to be adduced from senior NFB offices as part of phase 1 secondly the program for
01:09:33 part of phase 1 secondly the program for taking evidence from BSR witnesses and the approach to any special arrangements which may be needed for them or others if it's not impossible to reach
01:09:44 if it's not impossible to reach agreement on that question by then thirdly the preparation and presentation of the evidence necessary to discharge the article to function in relation to
01:09:56 the article to function in relation to each of the deceased and the program for carrying that out and fourthly the approach to be taken to identifying and formulating potential recommendations
01:10:08 formulating potential recommendations arising out of the phase one evidence I envisage that at that procedural hearing council's inquiry will be asked to make
01:10:19 council's inquiry will be asked to make a brief opening statement after which I will hear from counsel from those core participants who wish to be heard in order to ensure that the hearing can
01:10:30 order to ensure that the hearing can proceed efficiently those who wish to be heard must file a skeleton argument in electronic form with the solicitor to the inquiry not later than four o'clock
01:10:41 the inquiry not later than four o'clock on Tuesday the 28th of August skeleton arguments must be limited to five pages I know that was quite a challenge but it seems to be important to try and do that
01:10:53 seems to be important to try and do that so skeleton arguments to be limited to five pages and it would help me if they were drafted with one and a half line spacing bullet point submissions would
01:11:05 spacing bullet point submissions would be particularly welcomed given the limited time available I expect all submissions to be brief and succinct and as on previous occasions I should expect
01:11:17 as on previous occasions I should expect counsel to cooperate with each other in order to avoid repetition and make the best use of the limited time available because we must ensure that we start with the witness promptly at 11
01:11:30 start with the witness promptly at 11 o'clock
01:11:32 o'clock finally if any of you are able to take a holiday
01:11:35 holiday over the next month I hope you have a very enjoyable time miss Smith anything else we need to deal with mr. chairman no thank you very much
01:11:46 no thank you very much and that is the business of the day I trust thank you very much
01:11:57 mr. Mansfield I can scarcely hail from here and you want to realize that you're not going to be caught on camera of standing where you are so if you if you
01:12:09 standing where you are so if you if you wish to address me would you like to come up here you can pretend you're a witness for a moment
01:12:25 yes it's a request from the families that I represent and I think others as well in a sense it's foreshadowing what you've just sent for September there is
01:12:37 you've just sent for September there is a a widespread feeling amongst the families of a sense of urgency and that urgency relates to the possibility of helping other communities who live in
01:12:49 helping other communities who live in tar glugs very similar to the one that they were in all over the United Kingdom the urgency is this that the evidence that you've heard so far gives rise to
01:13:02 that you've heard so far gives rise to we would contend some urgency not only that but also some obvious and we say manifestly obvious possible
01:13:15 we say manifestly obvious possible recommendations that obviously could wait until the interim reports of publication or just before but the risk there is that another nine months would
01:13:27 there is that another nine months would go by and so we would ask that would you be prepared in the interim that is this break to receive examples of what we
01:13:38 break to receive examples of what we call the obvious and manifestly obvious urgent requirements for precautions in these other tower blocks that could be taken but we say tomorrow but certainly
01:13:49 taken but we say tomorrow but certainly very soon that's the request all right well now mr. Mansfield so I've already indicated I expect to hear submissions as to how we should go about approaching
01:14:00 as to how we should go about approaching that ass
01:14:02 that ass of things when we have the procedural hearing in September but if you wish to formulate any suggestions we shall receive them grateful
01:14:13 receive them grateful [Music]
01:14:22 well I missed a minute are there anything else the mainland not so far as I know no so that I think does does conclude the business of the day right thank you very thank you very much well then I look forward to seeing you all on
01:14:34 then I look forward to seeing you all on these those of you again to be back here at half past 9:00 from the 3rd of September and as I say if you can have a holiday I hope you enjoy it
01:14:54 you