Further LFB evidence (25 July 2018 Pt 1 of 3)

Full transcript

00:08:34 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing I'll invite mr. millet to call the next witness Thank You mr. chairman good morning yes I now call watch manager Paul Sadler to give evidence

00:09:08 show me the truth thank you very much mr. Sadler I take it you want to stand up to give you a racer that's fine yes

00:09:20 up to give you a racer that's fine yes just a minute good morning mr. Sadler good morning thank you very much for coming to the inquiry first of all could you please give us your full name Paul Anthony Sadler thank you can I please ask you to

00:09:32 Sadler thank you can I please ask you to go first to your two statements the first of which you made on the 15th of February 2018 and that is met triple zero one two four eight one and

00:09:44 triple zero one two four eight one and the second you made on the 12th of March 2018 and that is met triple zero one two six eight four have you read each of

00:09:56 six eight four have you read each of these statements recently yet a sir can you confirm that the contents are both true yes they are have you discussed your statements or your evidence with anybody before coming here today now I

00:10:08 anybody before coming here today now I think you also have a contemporaneous note which is M et met triple zip sorry quadruple zero five five six five we can just have that on the screen

00:10:24 which is a manuscript note that you made

00:10:29 after the incident do you recognize that note as yours yesterday and it's date of the 14th of June 2017 is that when you write that note okay

00:10:43 forgive me I can't help noticing it the first page of piston you've written in - slightly - from the hands is all yours or did some days - it's all yours yeah you've also got two exhibits ps2 and ps3

00:10:56 you've also got two exhibits ps2 and ps3 a pas - is a map which is M et triple zero one five six four one and pas three is the photograph of an envelope which

00:11:08 is the photograph of an envelope which contains flattened floor numbers which is M et triple zero one six nine six seven I don't propose to show you those at this stage but they are formally part

00:11:21 at this stage but they are formally part of your evidence now before I get further can I just say first of all thank you very much for coming today to give evidence to the inquiry we very much appreciate it my questions are supposed to be short and simple but if

00:11:33 supposed to be short and simple but if they're not or you don't understand them then I'll happily rephrase the question or put it again or not ask it at all and also if you need any breaks at any stage

00:11:44 also if you need any breaks at any stage just let us know sure okay now just in terms of your career you join the London Fire Brigade I think in August 2008 is that right August 2007 seven right my mistake can

00:11:57 August 2007 seven right my mistake can you explain your career today to give us a summary of it so May 1998 I joined a retain station Fanuc fire station - was - fire brigade which is now hair from - Fire Rescue Service rest of 18

00:12:09 from - Fire Rescue Service rest of 18 months I then passed a selection process to become a whole town firefighter in November of 1999 where I was based on the white wall Chet Hara for fire station I served there until August 2007

00:12:22 station I served there until August 2007 on the white watch at Hereford I then transferred to London Fire Brigade where I served at heathrow fire station Houston fire station Dokic fire station Soho fire station and

00:12:34 Dokic fire station Soho fire station and I'm a bass person on the red watch Atlanta fire station of watch manager right and just to get back to the date when you joined London Fire Brigade I put to you August 2008 because that's what your statement says at the bottom

00:12:46 what your statement says at the bottom of page 1 but is that wrong as it's my area yeah it's August 2007 this is 2007 okay and you're a watch manager still are you on at Lambeth that's correct and

00:12:59 are you on at Lambeth that's correct and and as at the night of the fire you were based where laughs no yes wear your watch manager on that night now a

00:13:10 your watch manager on that night now a page two of your statement we can just look at it you you say that in relation to your training that you focus a lot on

00:13:24 to your training that you focus a lot on high-rise buildings you say four lines and five lines down from the top the training with lfb tends to be very specific for instance here we have a lot of high-rise buildings that we tend to

00:13:36 of high-rise buildings that we tend to focus a lot of energy on high-rises and subsurface in terms of high-rise training what kind of training do you do you just give us an idea of that so

00:13:47 you just give us an idea of that so station base we've got a drill tower as you're aware of and we do some role-playing exercises for what a better word where we simulate a fire an upper floor and on arrival tactics so we do

00:14:00 floor and on arrival tactics so we do that as station we also have lectures and then we have a buried for borough specific risk so here at Lambeth we've got basements we've got a lot of high-rise so I focus more on those

00:14:12 high-rise so I focus more on those aspects of firefight now say at one of the service stations do those where they have more aspects of Reuel firefighting right we have set dates where we have a set of fire engines that get together

00:14:23 set of fire engines that get together four six eight ten and we develop a training program and we have a large scale exercise say it Ishod Wair we simulate a fire on when you have a floor

00:14:35 simulate a fire on when you have a floor and all appliances attend it's usually dry drill because we don't want to destroy the building and we just simulate their how it would evolve in real time right and being a bit more

00:14:47 real time right and being a bit more specific have you had training in the last in the year or two years before the Grunfeld tower fire on fire spread in high-rise buildings in terms of a

00:15:01 high-rise buildings in terms of a specific first bit of high-rise buildings no but without house fire spread these fires spread with complementation so we understand the principles of complementation and how

00:15:12 principles of complementation and how far just developed we're building being a high-rise boy flat so we do train advise spread obviously is slightly different high-rises different aspects but within the last year no but I

00:15:25 but within the last year no but I understand some principles around that yes right okay have you had specific training on what happens in a high-rise building when compartment ation is breached right have you had training on how to carry

00:15:37 have you had training on how to carry out a full or partial evacuation of a high-rise domestic dwelling no have you had any training on how to handle fire

00:15:49 had any training on how to handle fire survival guidance cause I have a training I have to deliver training part of the six pom-poms exercise we take part in or the full pump exercise we take part in we have simulated a role

00:16:02 take part in we have simulated a role play of FSG right I've carried that out recently

00:16:05 recently yes when you simulate is your role play of FSG was that as a operational officer on the incident ground I developed the training on that day so

00:16:17 I developed the training on that day so I had four fire engines Atlanta Fire Station and I simulated a high-rise fire the floors above building the upper floors of our old headquarters at empty at the moment so we simulated FSGS

00:16:30 at the moment so we simulated FSGS a fire on the fourth or sixth floor and then from that I developed a fire survival guidance coming through and one of the fire engines with us took those calls and

00:16:41 calls and a policy and a procedure can I just pull this up you defer you develop this training of cellphone on ethics once they develop that's a bit strong I

00:16:52 they develop that's a bit strong I orchestrated I put together in the for firing juice cup and I chose to concert on FSG as the risk to my station gram dictates and we do the high-rise fire

00:17:05 dictates and we do the high-rise fire fighters of the fire fight is a gain an understanding of high-rise fire fight in and I evolved that's the offices where there'd be some FSG involved so then that aspect would come into it okay now

00:17:16 that aspect would come into it okay now the involvement of the FSG in the training package that you helped orchestrate your word I think what was the pattern of communication or the chain of communication that you trained

00:17:30 chain of communication that you trained in terms of vehicle drove itself it's so tall just talk me through what the chain of communication of a fire survival guidance call was in the training that

00:17:41 guidance call was in the training that you orchestrated so as the policy states we had fire fighters in the upper floors control we simulated one of the fire fight pretend to be control on their handheld radios with radio app a instant

00:17:54 handheld radios with radio app a instant pump the ICP and say we have a fire some other guidance they would then get all information for max collate that information pass that information to the bridgehead and that information there be acted on right in the training that

00:18:07 acted on right in the training that you've just described and those links in the chain what was the chain of communication from the control room to the ICP was it radio or something so I'm simulating this at stage space and it

00:18:19 simulating this at stage space and it was a handheld radio ops II on operationally if your fire ground radio it would be transmitting that paper that information okay and when he was simulating the chain of

00:18:30 and when he was simulating the chain of communication in this training program from the ICP to the bridgehead what was the chain of communication network tell gradient directly so hand-operated would communicate and a physical paper

00:18:41 would communicate and a physical paper would follow up there's no there's no lost lost information right and the physical paper would that be the four part multicolored controlled information form as correct right we'll be looking

00:18:53 form as correct right we'll be looking at those later on okay and say what in your training program with the bridgehead receive by way of FSG so for

00:19:04 bridgehead receive by way of FSG so for this instinctive small-scale instant they would receive information by handheld radio but then they'd also receive the physical paper and control information form we should be one piece of paper week from that from that four

00:19:15 of paper week from that from that four ply form and in that training program how would the bridgehead instruct the BA whereas to to proceed okay so it's just

00:19:28 whereas to to proceed okay so it's just one person trapped in this scenario so the information obviously they're called in our fire control we're simulating that called our fire control they would give out information to mount pump that

00:19:39 give out information to mount pump that goes up the bridgehead in the bridgehead either commander a bridge a commander or we've got search coordinator we didn't banks of a small Scout innocent it's a bridge a command to all the engine control officer we then instructor be a cruise if

00:19:51 we then instructor be a cruise if they're already committed to redirect carry out that rescue and never clear we've got carry on the firefighting and that's that's how it was carried out and just a final question on this training in that training program was the

00:20:02 in that training program was the information about the FSG call that went to the bridgehead recorded by anybody at the bridgehead so those have the physical for the AC second piece of paper from the foreplay FSG for control

00:20:13 paper from the foreplay FSG for control information form so that information beyond that obviously the intervention control board which changed the brief of what the VA crew are doing they are now carrying out search-and-rescue on a specific flat so they were changing their marks column whatever it is right

00:20:25 their marks column whatever it is right and did the training involve a forward information board the forward information board would be next is part of the equipment that goes to the bridgehead on arrival tactics in your training would it be used to record the

00:20:37 training would it be used to record the FSG call they mention it depends the limits of the RFS G it's quite straightforward FSG there's no need for that you've got the information on your control form and it's quite straightforward that

00:20:49 form and it's quite straightforward that they've got to go to that flat carry out that rescue right have you ever had any training or given any training about the risk of cladding igniting on the

00:21:00 risk of cladding igniting on the high-rise building have you ever had any training or given any training about the risks of ignition of exterior structures which would wrap around a high-rise building no specific training but as I

00:21:13 building no specific training but as I mentioned earlier firefighting tactics when you arrive at covering jets say when it fires left the compartment you were covering the jet up above or below an opening - cool that's great and heat

00:21:26 an opening - cool that's great and heat from the ventilated fire from that compartment so that is part of on arrival tactics and just good principles of firefighting in terms of us a specific training that is just what we do day in day out

00:21:37 do day in day out did you receive specific lacan or house training training after the lateral house event I have received training on the case study of Blackmoor house through my promotion and what was the

00:21:49 through my promotion and what was the takeaway message from that training a new record fundamentally for me to take away message misses personally was FSG and some of the miscommunication they might have taken place join that instant right and that's my personal opinion as

00:22:03 right and that's my personal opinion as your personal learning is it yeah okay what specifically did you learn should be done by way of FSG management by way of FSG as you've just said in your last

00:22:15 of FSG as you've just said in your last answer that that you now would do but you wouldn't do before not even if possible collect that information in a way that is secure so we have the control information pool option that

00:22:27 control information pool option that isn't always possible if you're getting information away from a fire engine so the station officer carries the airwave radio they could get that FSG there they might not have the FSG pads control information form near them but where

00:22:39 information form near them but where possible to make that information in a system is safe and that's just that information to secure that information gets their bridgehead as a priority and when resources permit you get that information onto the ramp nice ball

00:22:51 information onto the ramp nice ball yes thank you okay um have you ever heard of the Farah Shepherd's court in August 2016 machetes Bush yes yes were you were you

00:23:02 machetes Bush yes yes were you were you present no it's on duty that day but I think we're training right okay did you ever receive any training or intelligence or even gossip around the mess table about the lessons learnt from

00:23:13 mess table about the lessons learnt from Shepherd's court can I now turn to the night of the fire now on the night of the fire at Grenville tower 14th of June

00:23:25 the fire at Grenville tower 14th of June 2017 you mobilized I think once the incident had been made up to 25 pumps as cracked eggs will you say in your statement now we have on record the fact

00:23:36 statement now we have on record the fact that the fire was made up to 25 pumps at one 131 in your witness statement you

00:23:48 one 131 in your witness statement you say in the third paragraph of your statement on page 2 in the second line

00:24:01 statement on page 2 in the second line that the bells went down you say this is some I've said it's the third paragraph I suppose it is it's the it's half way

00:24:13 I suppose it is it's the it's half way down the page which starts the 13th of June was our first night shift and then the second line it says the bells went down at 12:55 a.m. is that the bells at

00:24:28 down at 12:55 a.m. is that the bells at Lambeth Fire Station yes that's correct I just wondered I just wonder whether that's correct time that might be a wrong time and obviously my statements given to best my knowledge

00:24:39 my statements given to best my knowledge I haven't really revisited the reports of such line is obviously post instant I still find it quite tough that might be an hour prep the short instant

00:24:52 might be an hour prep the short instant report will give you a definitive time and I'll take that a spin the true reflection of time okay so I can put to you because you were riding h2 to one

00:25:03 you because you were riding h2 to one weren't you that's yes I say in the short incident log at page 9 H 2 to 1 is available at 1:30 350 and say I think you you

00:25:17 1:30 350 and say I think you you wouldn't quarrel with that is that is that right can I see it on the honor system certainly so H 2 to 1 just halfway down the screen there we've got

00:25:29 halfway down the screen there we've got and the top can I see what refugees 30 said well that mobilize and then states to you have to go back to the page before sorry yeah no it's that the first time there is the time assigned okay

00:25:41 time there is the time assigned okay yeah so that's 130 350 and then the second is Mobile is which for age 20 age 22 to 21 is 135 55 you see that there

00:25:53 22 to 21 is 135 55 you see that there that's some mobile to incidental status to I'll ask you about the arrival time but the days are the times on the short incident log those times will be correct

00:26:05 incident log those times will be correct yes my my statement should read oh oh 133 were mobilised 135 here is a is 2 right now H 2 2 2 was mobilized at the

00:26:19 right now H 2 2 2 was mobilized at the same time do you remember that yes and was riding with you yes it was he was in front of us ok now do we need to try to get a fix on the time you actually arrived on the incident ground now we

00:26:31 arrived on the incident ground now we know from the short incident log that the that pumps were made 25 at around 1:30 148 and not just to show you that that's page 18 of the short incident log

00:26:53 so you can see oh one 3148 service requests created make pumps 25 and then a 131 55 make up make pumps 25 say we

00:27:09 a 131 55 make up make pumps 25 say we have that in the short incident log that being so and looking at your mobilization we know that as I've just

00:27:22 mobilization we know that as I've just shown you you were assigned at a 13350 + H - 2 - if you go back to it at page 9

00:27:43 arrived just after just a couple of minutes after you as I think you say does that help you with the time that you arrived do you think yeah I believe I remembered not booked in stage three

00:27:54 I remembered not booked in stage three because there was a lot going on the radio was briefing my crews in the back on arrival I remember leaving the firings and I remember I had a book status three I believe Ben McClure my

00:28:05 status three I believe Ben McClure my crew manager he hadn't but stage three either were busy briefing the crews of what to get to approach the incident okay now just sticking with that page of the short incident log we've got your

00:28:17 the short incident log we've got your status to 80222 status to as 137 twenty-three and you you say in your statement on page two that you think your travel time is about seven minutes

00:28:28 your travel time is about seven minutes I think that's a bit a bit short believe maybe thirteen fourteen minutes and obviously it's hard to put a time on it but it was quite a long travel distance

00:28:39 but it was quite a long travel distance for London okay so you think you're right if it's thirteen or fourteen minutes and you were mobile to incident at 137 that would put you on the fire

00:28:54 at 137 that would put you on the fire ground of about 152 I suppose and just reference the states to sometimes there is a delay there's a lag on the MTT it might take a little while to take your

00:29:05 might take a little while to take your status depending on the signal so booking states 201 36 no 137 represent seems quite a long time we're usually out the door tube in 90 seconds right

00:29:17 out the door tube in 90 seconds right where are you on that night do you think yes we were there was there was I remember that watch looking the watch room because it was a way up our grounds right but I remember distracting that I'd use my phone Google Maps or the MDT

00:29:32 I'd use my phone Google Maps or the MDT to get us there okay yep on the basis that we're working for the short instant of loggers accurate that is accurate syriza as data's being put it however it might not be accurate when we press that button or we're already on routes given

00:29:45 button or we're already on routes given that information screws in the back and then we said read press they is to that makes sense now in this on the same page in your witness statement the thief I keep

00:29:58 witness statement the thief I keep calling it the third paragraph down it sits just below halfway down two-thirds of the way down you say we headed towards Granville tower from the south and then you say I could tell from the

00:30:10 and then you say I could tell from the chatter on the radio that this fire was serious and from Earls Court on was my driver really put his foot down now just in terms of the chatter on the radio what chatter in particular made you

00:30:23 what chatter in particular made you think the fire was serious do you remember the FSG the FSG yeah that's right so I've got it so headlong Milbank and go and round up towards us cool I believe that's when I

00:30:34 towards us cool I believe that's when I started here in some FSG object ranged onto channel 4 where a southern callsign I'll go straight to channel 4 yes and I've picked up and intercepted obviously

00:30:45 I've picked up and intercepted obviously this radio chatter this these communications and I could hear FSG taking place so I knew I mean this is a mate problems 25 instance very it's very large and there is first year Baldwin

00:30:58 large and there is first year Baldwin long road but first of all what did you hear the FSG on so obviously this was a year ago and I don't want to reflect

00:31:09 year ago and I don't want to reflect inaccurately I do believe I did hear and maybe you the timeframes might tie this up I don't know I might have heard the controller trying to communicate to a ever see you or ICP and they weren't

00:31:24 ever see you or ICP and they weren't getting response I don't know if I've thought that over the period of time since a fire that's not possible but I do believe I that's that's what I heard to start off with then that truck then

00:31:35 to start off with then that truck then that FSG get transmitted right okay in terms of what you were hearing what you're using to hear that message on was it a radio in the cab or so that's the main scheme ranger this case there's two

00:31:46 main scheme ranger this case there's two top two radar I'm carry a handheld personal radio the five ramp fire ground radio there's a main scheme radio which is fixed into the cab and obviously senior officers stationed above have a

00:31:57 senior officers stationed above have a our version of that same radio from how long into the journey which you say was 12 to 15 minutes or so did you start

00:32:08 12 to 15 minutes or so did you start hearing FSG messages coming over your radio

00:32:11 radio so I've referenced Earls Court at that time so to get it all sports we're just going on yeah the embankment Milbank along the embankment so I say five

00:32:22 along the embankment so I say five minutes six minutes right okay so trying to get a fix on that if you look at the short incident log page 19

00:32:34 look at the short incident log page 19 for example you can see

00:32:43 let's take 140 at 47 and it is only an example I stress a quarter of the way down page 19 you can see it there on the

00:32:54 down page 19 you can see it there on the screen

00:32:55 screen RT for - G - 7 1 and G 2 7 1 was the was the incident command pump at that stage FYI seven people in flat 205 on 23rd

00:33:07 FYI seven people in flat 205 on 23rd floor persons are able to leave property but first of all do you remember that message specifically and I'd be wrong with me to say that now was that the kind of message that you began to hear definitely yes right we have a recording

00:33:22 definitely yes right we have a recording of a radio transmission from control to a specific enroute appliance where

00:33:34 a specific enroute appliance where there's a radio transmission saying that there are lots of 5ik waiting lots of fire survival guidance fire survival calls and people asking lots of questions caller on the 18th floor thick smoke outside and then a list of a

00:33:46 thick smoke outside and then a list of a list of flats do you remember hearing that sort of thing I remember hearing specific FSGS if it was a long

00:33:57 specific FSGS if it was a long transcript as you just mentioned I wouldn't like to say that no I just remember here specific FSGS you do okay and were you continuing to hear them when you arrived with the incident on arrival

00:34:15 with the incident on arrival I can't recall that but they join the journey there yes so leading up to two or three minutes for our arrival there work there were FSGS being processed yes okay and would you say when you were

00:34:27 okay and would you say when you were hearing these that enroute that there was a we try and put it any way that doesn't suggest an answer what was the volume or frequency of fan

00:34:40 what was the volume or frequency of fan survival guidance calls messages that you were hearing and enroute there's more they never heard the full write-up see usually it's just one or two FS geez you receive on route and I've

00:34:51 you receive on route and I've experienced that once before my career this was more than one or two FS geez and maybe I wouldn't like spent a number on it but there was more than one or two on routes nothing see that's why driver

00:35:04 on routes nothing see that's why driver as I said put my foot down I remember that because we knew they had an accident such force it is hard to get that well they're sticking with page 19 then at the moment are just looking it at all the messages we see from 140 down

00:35:18 at all the messages we see from 140 down to the bottom of the page and again these are just a snapshot just an example would that represent the frequency and volume of the fast survival guidance calls you were hearing over the main scheme radio in the cab on

00:35:30 over the main scheme radio in the cab on route I was on RT full and I was states to at this time so yes I would have been hearing that right okay

00:35:39 now on page 2 in your statement at the very bottom of the paragraph we're just looking at you say we parked in Sardar Road as it was the places we could get

00:35:50 Road as it was the places we could get could you just show us on your on your map that you've exhibited she's PTA which is pas to wear exactly that is I'll just give the reference again that's M et triple zero one five six

00:36:02 that's M et triple zero one five six four one if we could just enlarge the tower area can you just show us where new part where hotel two to one and two to two parts yes you have to zoom out

00:36:14 to two parts yes you have to zoom out please

00:36:15 please did you go back to them the first so it's not even on there so we're these Bravo is circled if you head south down brimful Road yes sorry at the bottom of

00:36:27 brimful Road yes sorry at the bottom of the actually not on the map of you know so you get the junction that bottom of Graham full row to the southern tip I saw coming down that road term right and there be a junction ahead of you and

00:36:39 there be a junction ahead of you and it's down half way down that road right okay so south of the three walkway blocks that we see on my on the map there you could just pop the cursor I'll

00:36:51 there you could just pop the cursor I'll I'll tell you so wait we're written 20 meters yes that's 20 meters then there there be a junction there yes and it's 20 meters that hat down that road right okay there is high one with fire

00:37:03 okay there is high one with fire appliances and emergency vehicles park there so that's as close as we could get okay now you then say the top of page three of your witness statement bottom

00:37:14 three of your witness statement bottom of page two and top of page three I then instructed my crew to put on there be a gear and I also put one on myself which in normal circumstances is pretty much unheard of its bottom of two top of

00:37:27 unheard of its bottom of two top of three

00:37:29 three [Music]

00:37:31 [Music] why did you instruct your crew to put on their be a straight away so approaching the fire from the south we really couldn't see the tower until literally whereas there's three and maybe twenty

00:37:43 whereas there's three and maybe twenty seconds before what would lift a bit between the trees right obviously knowing the map FSGS I'd rather my crews go and there's a long travel distance to the tower with some equipment rather than have to return to the fire engine

00:37:55 than have to return to the fire engine and pack

00:37:55 and pack I mean running or walking in fire gear is quite a strenuous task as it is so I mean you can run that under meters in 15 seconds but you can't run under meters in even 20 30 seconds in fire gear it is

00:38:07 in even 20 30 seconds in fire gear it is hard so I want them to I didn't want them coming back to the fire engine for anything so I got them to take as much equipment as I could they know they're on a rival tectus too tactics to a high-rise instant they get

00:38:18 tactics to a high-rise instant they get my easy packs off I think at that time we're tried in new high-rise bag that was taken they took every bar pot-au-crème a presser long lines breaking in gear and I think we could carry we took you say you were trialing

00:38:31 carry we took you say you were trialing a new bag is that the the fire bag if I are easy right yeah right when you instructed them to put it on ba that was your idea was it or were you responding to an instruction or knows my

00:38:42 responding to an instruction or knows my idea okay why is it unheard of for you to put a BA maybe isn't the right word it's very rare

00:38:53 it's very rare watch managers usually carry out a functional role so I've rolled on the instance I've set to command a bridgehead commander safety officer so there's specific roles that an officer

00:39:05 there's specific roles that an officer will carry out so we use a utilize for those role we switch it permits some kind of command control so the senior officer can get rid of some of these lines of communication to take tape out

00:39:18 lines of communication to take tape out take that weight off him or hat so I was yeah I just made it I made the assumption that articulates with me because the fire was something I've

00:39:29 because the fire was something I've never seen before you can see it rapidly developing up the side of the building I'd rather take it with me so when I was could use it or if I'm needed sometimes in situations where it's something quite drastic they will send a crew manatorian

00:39:41 drastic they will send a crew manatorian or watch manager in to assess the situation to try and look what strategies we could we could implement because we know maybe a little bit more than a firefighter it's not necessarily always the case but sometimes it's assumed that we might have an

00:39:54 assumed that we might have an understanding that something different right now when you first saw the fire were you walking up Grenville Road or did you have you seen it before you

00:40:06 did you have you seen it before you parked so it may be between the trees as we headed east across the junction before head North Road we parked on I think I caught

00:40:17 North Road we parked on I think I caught the glimpse it between the trees there and then when we put stages three I put the handbrake on which I could just see the tower behind another block of flats I could see the fire developing up B

00:40:31 I could see the fire developing up B beast inside I really saw fundament either right okay at what point did you get a good look at them about the fire from the ground as I entered gravel road I see

00:40:42 I see and how much of it was a light do you remember that that's think I reference it in my statement I am the south east corner or the eastern corner of the towers a light maybe from Clause 4 at 14

00:40:56 towers a light maybe from Clause 4 at 14 15 again it's hard to reference floors when you're approaching without stopping and Rianne sorry in counting but it was developing up that that's southeast corner okay now on page three of your

00:41:10 corner okay now on page three of your statement in the second paragraph you say at this time I was approached by an officer watch your station manager level who told me that lots of FS cheese were

00:41:21 who told me that lots of FS cheese were coming in and we needed to set up an FSG point where we were where were you physically when you were approached by

00:41:33 physically when you were approached by that watch or station manager do you remember yes I do if he was captured on one of the panorama documentaries actual officer speaking to me I was underneath the covered area at the base of the

00:41:44 the covered area at the base of the tower just behind Paddington's aerial which is at this time was catching fire we were forming up there all the firefighters are forming up there in the would-be fashion the bridge head you can

00:41:55 would-be fashion the bridge head you can see where the lobby area was saturated with firefighters going in and this officer I was there with my grieving operates on my crew behind me right and just obviously approached me and said that we received a high volume of FSGS

00:42:07 that we received a high volume of FSGS on the upper floors we need to set an FST point in this location to help deal with this cause right now before that as you say in the first paragraph of your statements in the in the third line on

00:42:19 statements in the in the third line on page three you say you saw a command unit

00:42:24 unit this wanting the unit for booking in however I found an officer from the CEO and gave him our normal role boards the command unit which number was that do

00:42:37 command unit which number was that do you remember I didn't know what it was at the time I now know that is see you seven seven yes right you say you now know this see you soon yes what have you learnt since of the time of the fire here in your conversations

00:42:49 of the fire here in your conversations here yeah right okay again it's a looking at the words I found an officer from the see you was that from that scene see you I don't know

00:42:58 know so as I greet my crews to get the breathing operators we walked was quite a journey

00:43:03 a journey we jumped up to water tower obviously I had my pumps and mine on the roll boards to book in yes with the see you see you seven I looked in darkness on my

00:43:14 seven I looked in darkness on my right-hand side I say looked in darkness it wasn't much activity around it and I saw someone from the CEO jogging down I asked him where the command unit was for booking in he says ran the other side I

00:43:27 booking in he says ran the other side I said well put the boards I guess I'll take those off you there's a matter of practice do command units as pump bladders tend to have a number on the outside you can see yes it would say see

00:43:39 outside you can see yes it would say see you seven or cu8 or see you two would it say yes okay so the first one you saw that was in darkness do you remember what see you number that was I didn't see a number but it's at the location that I went back to later on as we go

00:43:51 that I went back to later on as we go through my statement and it was that vehicle was in the same position so I would assume that is the same way of course not be moved okay and did you see a second see you on

00:44:02 okay and did you see a second see you on your route to the tower no it didn't again hearing some of your conversations here I understand that I'm I walked right past one on my right hand side right okay all right now um coming

00:44:16 side right okay all right now um coming back to the paragraph it on page three in your statement that I was on a minute ago that you say officer watch or station manager level who told me that they were

00:44:28 they were FSG is coming in do you know who that was

00:44:32 was no it don't snow right have you did you know or do you know a watch manager ken field I might have had interactions with

00:44:44 field I might have had interactions with him right him it was it was a him that I spoke to on the fire ground but again when I see we get very great great deal

00:44:55 when I see we get very great great deal of seen you meeting us on different fires around London so I can't say I've seen it the before all right and what about let me suggest another

00:45:06 and what about let me suggest another name to you station manager loft now do you do you know whether the watch or station manager had come from a command

00:45:18 station manager had come from a command unit again I there's a lot of information going on so it's got a sensory overload I don't think you had at Abaddonn but again I I don't to say

00:45:29 at Abaddonn but again I I don't to say either way to be fair do you know why that watch manager or station manager approached you in particular for this task no I think where we were were in that covered area just on the southern

00:45:41 that covered area just on the southern side of the behind patterns in this area were forming up the exit afforded some kind of protection from the falling debris I guess I was are the only white helmets I'm quite tall I maybe I stood over and he wanted a watch manager or

00:45:54 over and he wanted a watch manager or crew mattress to assist in what was going on right at the point he approached you it sounds from what you've just said that you'd joined the back of the be a whereas crew cute is

00:46:05 back of the be a whereas crew cute is that yeah funny in the middle of it yeah people have formed up behind just quite an orderly queue of three abreast just warming up waiting for I think more amount of brown from Battersea Stuart was a Safety Officer is quite a lot of

00:46:16 was a Safety Officer is quite a lot of falling debris I was a turntable ladder was now catching on fire I was covering Jets trying to put that out and he was I think holding people back until people filtered into the tower and then more

00:46:27 filtered into the tower and then more people were dead make a dash across into the tower

00:46:30 the tower oh I see so just if we can get a mental picture of this there's a queue of BA whereas coming so I can start again there's a queue of VA whereas in the tower I looked up and there was

00:46:42 in the tower I looked up and there was like a mezzanine level yes and I could see firefighters in that okay and the queue stretch internally how far down I would like to say I know the stairwell

00:46:53 would like to say I know the stairwell so I went in there later on that I just remember seeing firefighters in there someone could be regulating the flow of people in from the base of the tower or essentially just a safety issue that Stuart water manager Brown was just

00:47:05 Stuart water manager Brown was just regulating the flow of people across in that area okay and when you arrived at the covered area how big was the queue of VA where is waiting to be called off with substantial others over it doesn't

00:47:19 with substantial others over it doesn't maybe 20 of us right okay it was anybody marshaling you know we're off I was mid kid I was warming up trying to take take in what was happening when you were

00:47:31 in what was happening when you were approached by this officer who told you that there were lots of FS G's coming in did he tell you anything about about those calls other than that there were a lot of them no on reflection maybe I

00:47:42 lot of them no on reflection maybe I could have asked a little bit more information but I think he was quite overwhelmed and he had more of a situational awareness about instant I've just I've just literally turned up I've just that she turned up and walk to that

00:47:53 just that she turned up and walk to that location or maybe that for one minute but and he's come up to me with this information he's far more aware of the Danites of this incident and what information is being communicated on the

00:48:06 information is being communicated on the fire grounds so he's asked me an instruction

00:48:10 do you know how he knew that there were lots of for survival garden schools come on soon - he's from the command units I I don't know how it seemed that think him upset

00:48:21 him upset he's from the command unit again I can't remember so I don't want to say that it's true but yeah he said there's a lot of effort tricks I was aware of that

00:48:33 of effort tricks I was aware of that anyway because on route I'd heard these G's right now you say in your statement that he told you that you needed to set up an FSG point what did you understand the officer to mean by an FSG point a

00:48:46 the officer to mean by an FSG point a way of communicating and controlling the bases

00:48:48 bases that information into into the actual Bilgin again I have a situation awareness I knew that NEC you would be overwhelmed at this time from what I've heard even just half a dozen FSGS would

00:49:01 heard even just half a dozen FSGS would be quite an overwhelming flow of information coming into a command unit to deal with okay and how do you ever set up an f SG point before I've dealt with an f SG before yes that's not quite

00:49:13 with an f SG before yes that's not quite the same thing have you ever set up an f SG point before but you you were being asked to set up now so I've dealt with f SG in terms of enroute to an incident I've taken FST information I brought to

00:49:25 I've taken FST information I brought to the fire I've informed the incident commander about FST taking place and asked if he wants me or she wants me to see in this case to deal with f SG I was

00:49:36 see in this case to deal with f SG I was given that information ro the information the controlled information form brief debrief map let's go carry out that rescue firefighter did a 360 sword gentleman hang out the back bathroom window the crews were

00:49:47 bathroom window the crews were redirected from firefighting to carry out that rescue and we rescue the individual so in terms of set up a point it seems very fluid it involves very quickly or a smaller fire so to set up a point is hopefully the rescues dealt

00:50:00 point is hopefully the rescues dealt with and over before you've really set up a points year you that evolves because that's part of the policy but actually the rest was carried out before things were set up okay

00:50:11 things were set up okay and that was communicated back to control with the FST was carried out okay let me let me see if I can just explore that a little bit but further what did you understand when he gave you the instruction that he wanted you to do

00:50:23 the instruction that he wanted you to do so I think there's a piece of paper that will come up I don't know you had that piece of paper then give me a couple minutes later and he had a lot of information obviously it wasn't put on a

00:50:35 information obviously it wasn't put on a control information form but work have a look at this G policy soon it was it was written down in a way that they could control it and deal with it and I

00:50:48 control it and deal with it and I assumed at that point I need to capture information in the correct manner and get some kind of order to the information to the bridgehead because there's one piece of paper quite is to get lost and

00:51:00 piece of paper quite is to get lost and then we've got issues right at the point when you were asked to set up the FS g point did you know what the system was

00:51:13 point did you know what the system was for communicating FS g calls that were already coming in that you've told us about - the bridgehead know so I when I was told by the sports manager or station manager do believe it go watch

00:51:24 station manager do believe it go watch manager of this I asked two of the five parts of my station for a woman and Paige to further contact I believe this watch manager told me

00:51:36 I believe this watch manager told me that cu7 was my point of contact in channel three was my communications channel I've got those two fire fighters Steve page and white woman to run back and forth at that information that that

00:51:47 and forth at that information that that was the correct communication for this information okay now I was going to explore that a little bit further in a moment but before I do I think the answer just to get back to the answer to

00:51:58 answer just to get back to the answer to my question I think was no you didn't know is this right what the system was in place for communicating FSG calls that were already coming in to the bridgehead no but you don't okay now do

00:52:09 bridgehead no but you don't okay now do you know whether anybody else had been taking FSG calls and handling them at the incident ground before you were given this instruction by the watch manager or station man I'd assume so because one group of states two of her

00:52:20 because one group of states two of her deputies being transmitted and being received okay did you take any kind of handover from that that officer no apart from my cute my line of communication with cu7

00:52:31 my line of communication with cu7 channel 3 Hooten who told you to e 2 to liaise with co 7 and channel 3 that was manager that watch manager okay did you have any indication as to who the incident commander was at that time no

00:52:44 incident commander was at that time no okay

00:52:45 okay did you ever speak to the incident commander whoever it was no but this part was unprecedented and sometimes in heavy evolved advise is not you know always gonna speak to you to command

00:52:56 always gonna speak to you to command exec what overwhelmed he's devoted some spans of control and I'll be speaking people not speaking since inquiries may be overwhelmed develop things okay

00:53:08 be overwhelmed develop things okay now I'm coming back to your answer a minute ago about how you set this up on page three in the fourth paragraph you say I set myself up on a car bonnet near

00:53:19 say I set myself up on a car bonnet near the foot of the southeast corner of the tower

00:53:22 tower I was given an enveloped by the officer that had flaws and flat numbers written on it now we'll come to the envelope in a minute but just in just just looking at setting the system up where exactly

00:53:37 at setting the system up where exactly was the car bonnet in relation to me so the snap leads to another sorry the southeast point the tower there is patent ins turntable ladder which was housing at this time just a

00:53:49 which was housing at this time just a long time a person bollards and there's a car just parked along these bars I hope you oh yes okay that's good let's do that let's go back to your map

00:54:01 let's do that let's go back to your map that MIT triple zero one five six four one

00:54:09 now if you enlarge the tower area thank you

00:54:15 you you can see the word posts there which we've seen before is where there are some rising parts or unlockable bollards sure can you show us with my reference

00:54:27 sure can you show us with my reference to this map where the bonnet of the car was so we're posters written if you just go to the left you see little rectangle yes it was over there or just ever so slightly to the left underneath the

00:54:38 slightly to the left underneath the covered area up right I believe if I've drawn it there and that was quite soon after the incident that's where it was okay it was on that it was on that corner yeah right so was it actually under the covered

00:54:51 so was it actually under the covered area or in the open I want to say this maybe half and half because I was which we get to you later I wasn't moved from there for safety we could

00:55:03 and why they're exactly sorry why they're exactly what set up the FSG people yes so I was told by this watch

00:55:14 people yes so I was told by this watch manager that I need to set up there he's got more very situational oversight than me I feel that VCU was overwhelmed and I needed somewhere that I could have some kind of plates to place papers and

00:55:27 some kind of plates to place papers and control information boards he was right next to me that's kind of what I looked for and that's what I went for okay and and why didn't you set up

00:55:38 okay and and why didn't you set up closer to the the lobby of the pitar there was a lot of falling debris Paddington's TL now I believe was housing it was the the far part in the

00:55:49 housing it was the the far part in the cage of cremation the cages dodging a lot of debris right when each that was housing would retract him right yeah okay so there was a lot of debris coming down not as much as came down later on

00:56:02 down not as much as came down later on so I saw that was kind of a focal points on the corner people would see me on that corner as well underneath where the little circle with the white light with a line going off it

00:56:13 the white light with a line going off it that's kind of when firefighters were forming up that make sense of that areas quite congested with firefighters and grievin operators wait to go into the building okay and by reference to this map can you just tell us where the the

00:56:24 map can you just tell us where the the turntable ladder was so you see the end of the line yeah that what absolutely oppositely southeast corner I believe saved my memory serves me

00:56:36 I believe saved my memory serves me right yes now you mentioned an envelope and in your statement you mentioned an envelope in the second line of the third of the fourth paragraph on page three

00:56:50 and you say you were given it by the officer

00:56:55 who was that the same officer who'd given you the instruction to set up the FSG point I'm not entirely sure I want to say yes

00:57:06 to say yes again there was so much information coming at that time that I can't handle hearts a that is that is the case that I believe so yes

00:57:17 believe so yes okay India in the paragraph before you referred to a watch manager from the command unit giving you a jacket with FSG coordinator on the back it's the

00:57:29 FSG coordinator on the back it's the second sentence of that paragraph was that the same watch manager who had originally instructed you to set up an

00:57:40 originally instructed you to set up an FSG point I'll be honest I didn't even look at her watch man I was writing so first of all given a jacket a functional jacket with no inserts there was no name in it and they literally put on me as I

00:57:51 in it and they literally put on me as I was still writing at the steez such was the rate of effigies coming in I didn't even look up I was literally writing and they dressed me okay later on when I laid down on the floor because of things that were talked about

00:58:02 because of things that were talked about later happening I was there on the floor and that's when he's put the insert on my back oh I see and what color is the first Yellow Jackets yellow high-vis jacket with FSG whenever I come back

00:58:13 jacket with FSG whenever I come back okay

00:58:14 okay now some will come back to the the envelope in a moment you say that you've had two of your firefighters helping is Steve page and Mike Worman as you

00:58:27 Steve page and Mike Worman as you mentioned earlier this morning and indeed in your statement in the same paragraph we're looking out there and what did you instruct them to do first so when I got this information I turned

00:58:39 so when I got this information I turned to them and obviously it's just some faces I knew and I knew that every firefighter carrying a task but usually go for a face you know and I asked them to firm up this information that I've been given I don't know why I doubted it

00:58:51 been given I don't know why I doubted it I just want to make sure because this is such such an important event that every sing on the same hymn she here I've wanted to dot the i's and cross the t's

00:59:02 wanted to dot the i's and cross the t's when you say you wanted them to firm up the information what did you I asked them to do sorry I asked him to go back to see you seven yes confirm

00:59:14 go back to see you seven yes confirm it's tu7 was the see of dealing with the FSGS

00:59:16 FSGS right I that channel three was my communications chunking and did they do that they did yes they reported back to me how long did that take from that trip to see you seven and then back to you a good few minutes Susan I do believe that

00:59:31 good few minutes Susan I do believe that they actually went to see you ate you see you seven wasn't stood up and running and there but they were top seve seven what's the point of contact on channel three and they came back to me and taught me that information so we've just be

00:59:42 that information so we've just be cleared that you think they they they went to see you eight first and then were told to go to see you seven no I think they were to see you eight and spoke to see you eight and we're told see you seven was going to be dealing

00:59:54 see you seven was going to be dealing with FSG and channel three that past Cu seven was your fire ground radio still picking up our teeth could you pick up RT for messages on your far away that's

01:00:06 RT for messages on your far away that's a no BS station officer in a bath foods by main scheme behind it just in terms of timing and following up that last answer if I can can I just ask you to

01:00:18 answer if I can can I just ask you to see if we can get a time check on this by reference to the short incident log page 22 please you can see a time mark

01:00:29 page 22 please you can see a time mark there of o2 2333

01:00:38 Oh 22333 ki cu7 run all FSG calls via cu7 now that's the time when the control

01:00:51 cu7 now that's the time when the control room keyed that information in there as an ordering does that help you fix in your own mind a time when the when c7

01:01:04 your own mind a time when the when c7 took over control of the FSG information that be the time that it's broadcast I do feel because I do feel a speaking to c7 before that with FSG so I've seen

01:01:16 to c7 before that with FSG so I've seen some documented I do remember what an early Oh 200 hours times down I do remember that okay so I think that we've been dealing with FSG that really

01:01:27 been dealing with FSG that really transmitted slightly later day then it become an MSG see you now Steve page and

01:01:39 become an MSG see you now Steve page and Mike Worman were your fire fighters helping you when you look at the fourth paragraph of your statement on page three you say in the fourth line I took

01:01:54 three you say in the fourth line I took a photo of the envelope and then got one of my runners to take the envelope to the bridgehead so they could start formulating the rescues I'm gonna come to the details of that in a minute but just I just want to identify the runners

01:02:07 just I just want to identify the runners were one of these runners Steve page or Mike were man or both that's know they were committed to look after they come back to you from season

01:02:20 after they come back to you from season 8 that's correct I see okay do you remember who the runners were that you had available for this exercise no spaces but I know Charlie Buffy it was instrumental and a

01:02:33 Charlie Buffy it was instrumental and a senior hand Billy from Hammersmith with mentor in helping there was other people and for giving up I did forget their names but it was a was there was a key

01:02:45 names but it was a was there was a key us okay

01:02:59 you say at the end of the third paragraph of your statement channel 3 and cu7 with the points of contact and you told us that this morning as well do

01:03:11 you told us that this morning as well do you know the names of the people on cu7 who you were supposed to talk to I can't remember their names and I don't think I

01:03:22 remember their names and I don't think I was given their names just cu7 that will suffice for transmitting radio traffic right at the start when you set up the FSG point what was the method or medium

01:03:33 FSG point what was the method or medium of communication with cu7 that you were supposed to use say yes right sir but at the point when you first set up the FSG point on the bullet of the car yes what was the medium of communication what

01:03:46 was the medium of communication what what tools did you use to communicate with with cu7 my handheld radio right and runners and runners did you have any difficulties at that stage in communicating effectively

01:03:57 that stage in communicating effectively by radio with cu7 no it's very effective right do you know who you were speaking to on cu7 I want to say Dan Merritt she's got quite a distinctive voice but

01:04:09 she's got quite a distinctive voice but again this is over a year ago so I wouldn't like to say that's possible because that be probably okay do you know whether you did actually speak to Dan Merrick whether it was on cu8 or see

01:04:20 Dan Merrick whether it was on cu8 or see you certainly know I spoke to see yourself okay but you say you'd like to say Dan Merrick do you have a specific recollection again looking back things

01:04:31 recollection again looking back things changing I wouldn't I'd say hang apart that's the case oh right and did you use a method of did you use another method

01:04:43 a method of did you use another method of communicating with cu7 other than your radio and physical paper which we'll get to later on as in the control information forms yes so the methods of

01:04:54 information forms yes so the methods of communication was cu7 by a handheld radio channel three firefighter runners to me getting messages and taking them a physical piece of paper from information for at any point did you

01:05:07 information for at any point did you take messages from a pump ladder no not at all right I just want to put to you the gist of what for what the station

01:05:19 the gist of what for what the station manager Daniel Egan said in his evidence when he came here on the 3rd of July I'll just put the gist of it to you and for our own purposes its page 112 lines 8 to 16 and hundred and eighteen lines

01:05:32 8 to 16 and hundred and eighteen lines 20 to 25 let's just say that we can pick it up later and he said that he saw that there was an appliance taking FSG calls and the driver of that vehicle was getting off that machine out of the driver's seat

01:05:44 that machine out of the driver's seat walking around to you on the car vomit with two or three casualty report forms and giving them to view couldn't identify you who was writing it down do

01:05:58 identify you who was writing it down do you remember that happening no so he's saying they had control information forms yeah somebody said Skeets you say County report forms well capias casualty reports casualty report forms cuz you

01:06:10 reports casualty report forms cuz you have more formative form we do when we carry out IC or first day line an individual right there's no individuals there at that time it needed first aid I wouldn't be received that information okay I would be receiving controller information forms I didn't receive any

01:06:23 information forms I didn't receive any control information forms from the ice form a any pumpin appliance on that ground I dabble ball control information forms that I'm aware of right okay so whether it's casualty report forms or or control information

01:06:34 report forms or or control information forms just to summarize your evidence you've just given you don't recall receiving those pieces of paper from a driver of a of a pump ladder no there was a I think it might have been North Penn students pump ladder parked behind

01:06:48 Penn students pump ladder parked behind me I believe and one of my fire one of the runner firefighters got me a controlled information pad from that appliance so station manager Egan what I've seen

01:07:00 station manager Egan what I've seen right did that's happening and as things were evolved we just thought there that's some communication was coming I never received any information from

01:07:12 I never received any information from any other place apart receive several breakfasts FSG on channel 3 I see ok do just just exploring that last answer a little bit a little bit more do you remember seeing somebody from North

01:07:23 remember seeing somebody from North Ken's pump bladder bringing you a pad of control information forms from that pom that oh yes I asked them to go get me no I say do you remember who that was you know I don't and also I ran out of control

01:07:34 and also I ran out of control information forms as a pad quite quite a substantial pad though quite quickly ran out of forms because your input u+ and I asked someone to get me another pad I don't let they went back to that place

01:07:45 don't let they went back to that place and got a second qualification format usually I think when every carry one because you only do one or two FS G so I wouldn't imagine there be two pads on North kenderson's pump bladder right but

01:07:56 North kenderson's pump bladder right but I did run out of forms within the first 10 minutes 20 minutes but and I asked whenever pad to be caught suit so when ice might have gone there and it might be in a coincidence that sesh magic you saw those two occurrences I

01:08:08 magic you saw those two occurrences I see and of interest half thick well how many control information forms do you get in a pad either afford its quadruplicate but how many do you get

01:08:19 quadruplicate but how many do you get that's a good question I would say in excess of 20 right okay um can I also just put something to you that arose out of the evidence given by Dan Merrick this is 10th of July transcript will

01:08:32 this is 10th of July transcript will page 20 line 6 to 10 did you ever see watch manager Ken field on the radio taking far survival guidance information details watch - you

01:08:47 guidance information details watch - you can't feel being the water plans that I allegedly spoke to that beginnings this what was saying I'm just asking you whether you ever saw watch manager Ken feels on the radio on the fire ground taking fire survival guidance call

01:08:59 taking fire survival guidance call information identical China Capulet is did he see any watch manager other than yourself taking fire survival guidance calls from a command unit over his radio on the fire ground no I did see a watch

01:09:12 on the fire ground no I did see a watch manager next to me taking a phone call on a mobile phone from a resident within the building it was trapped okay they were on that phone for maybe two hours actually might even be longer than that

01:09:23 actually might even be longer than that and I was at times concerned because the watch manager was in quite distress right and he was off to my right crunching down at times on the phone to

01:09:36 crunching down at times on the phone to this individual okay it's really don't you drop you just for a second to ask mr. Sandler with you're happy to keep going for a bit you've been giving evidence for an hour we will be having a break within the next quarter an hour or

01:09:48 break within the next quarter an hour or so is that a writing pen to keep I said it yes thank you thank you very much mr. service I'm greatly

01:10:09 when you started on the FSG point was that you had candies control information

01:10:21 that you had candies control information forms oh well let me just put it a different way when you started at the fire survival guidance point and you set it up did you have any control information forms already with you or

01:10:32 information forms already with you or did you need to get them from somewhere no when I was told about this a degree map rate set on my back I turned around and dropped it on the floor next to the car yes and then I started to get a team together to facilitate this right I see

01:10:45 together to facilitate this right I see and was one of those first actions asking the driver of G of the North Carolina to bring you the pad of control information forms it wasn't a driver I think I saw a lot of firefighters around

01:10:57 think I saw a lot of firefighters around me and I've got a buffer page apart woman to go off and do that task food we mentioned earlier record c7 and Channel three they're all fresh berries and I could see that there were some where is

01:11:09 could see that there were some where is that already worn and others conscious it is it's going to be quite a punishing instant for the firefighters and I wanted all fresh firefighters to get in there and I could see some individuals that we're exhausted and they were

01:11:21 that we're exhausted and they were arrested I think they were the initial crews that went in a fight the fire shags that then to come over and assist me right

01:11:34 and it as you started the exercise where did the control information forms come from petroleum facial forms would have got being got from I believe North

01:11:45 got being got from I believe North Henson's public service it was part I can't say that for gospel but I believe that's where the initial pad come from yes right

01:11:53 yes right did you also have with you at that stage of FI B's forward information no when I breathe when the farts get me control patient forms I ask them to get a for donation board as well what were you going to use those for fun demoniac

01:12:05 going to use those for fun demoniac before the information board was a board to restaurant to start off with but as the situation arose evolved you can utilize it for many different functions so to have it there it's this addition

01:12:16 so to have it there it's this addition of stationery okay now what was the source of the first first survival guidance information that you were given I believe and you might be able to help

01:12:30 I believe and you might be able to help me this I believe I took FSG first of all from channel 3 and the the rate of those coming through is phenomenal right I couldn't pull off four pieces of paper

01:12:41 I couldn't pull off four pieces of paper I write the fat members down quick enough before your next one car did that information always include the flat and floor number and persons trapped not always it was a variation of them so

01:12:53 always it was a variation of them so fundamentally I'd say 80% of the FSGS come through is flat on floor only some come in is just floor only some come in as people on the roof as some come in is

01:13:04 as people on the roof as some come in is a flat on floor and the conditions or the number of people within that compartment and did you always write down all the details you were given over channel three yes as far as I'm aware I did yes and

01:13:17 yes as far as I'm aware I did yes and when I got an update and I think my updates are very limited I think I had one or two updates because the information was just one way because how it was evolving I did do one updates about fire coming in through a window

01:13:28 about fire coming in through a window smoking in for a window and that was updates on the control information form is since the bridgehead right

01:13:39 and when you started writing down the information you were getting it over channel three at the very beginning of this process what were you writing them that information down on or on the

01:13:51 that information down on or on the control information points then if you turn to page four of your statement second substantive paragraph you say when completing the forms I arranged for

01:14:02 when completing the forms I arranged for the white copies to be taken to the bridgehead the yellow copy to the command unit seven and I kept the other two forms forms actually tell you that it should be gather way round with the yellow to the bridgehead and the white

01:14:13 yellow to the bridgehead and the white one to the command unit the reason I changed it was that the white one is the more legible one and one of the most important at the time

01:14:27 did you did you when you say I arranged for the white copies to be taken to the bridgehead did you ask somebody to do

01:14:40 bridgehead did you ask somebody to do that in terms of physically do it yeah so I was taking the FST information from channel 3 yes I was white nickname if the incident wasn't as resource

01:14:51 the incident wasn't as resource intensive I would have stood back and facilitated crew managers doing this and supervised but we didn't have enough people and I would to take ownership of this process right so I wrote down on

01:15:02 this process right so I wrote down on the forms and I'll pull off the white one and let's have some firefighters to my left and have firefighters to my right to my left were to the tower firefighters to my rights which are they

01:15:13 firefighters to my rights which are they see you that way for prioritize how many firefighters I had at any one time prior to being information to the tower I see and you say in your statement at the end of the paragraph I've just read to you the white one is the more legible

01:15:24 to you the white one is the more legible one and the one of the most importance at the time what do you mean when you say one of the most importance at the time when was the white one particularly important have you any evidence of my

01:15:35 important have you any evidence of my control information from sir I haven't even going to show you those in a minute I think speak a thousand words if you show ok control information for my White's copy and a yellow copy okay if you don't my sir no I don't so

01:15:49 okay if you don't my sir no I don't so let's sum I've just think you think how long it's going to take I'm sorry but before I do that let me just ask you some questions about the envelope we'd

01:16:03 some questions about the envelope we'd like to show you those forms all right well anyway I think we should have it no that's absolutely fine can the witness please be shown lfb quadruple zero one two nine two two

01:16:24 what I'm showing you is a set of documents which have been disclosed by the NFB to the inquiry we're not entirely sure not entirely sure where

01:16:35 entirely sure not entirely sure where they come from and I hope this will help you explain your evidence but if it doesn't then tell me and we'll see what we can to pass it yeah this is a yellow

01:16:48 we can to pass it yeah this is a yellow sheet which says premise number 161 19th floor ten people and if we turn the pages we can get we will get to some

01:16:59 pages we can get we will get to some different colors as we go if there's anything that as we've turned the pages in this rather long there are 43 pages I appreciate is there a white coffee yes that and there's my point the first one

01:17:13 that and there's my point the first one should go to ICPs dictate it in the top-left corner yes you can see how legible that is if you go back to a yellow copy yes yes the place pretty much less legible right the

01:17:26 place pretty much less legible right the conditions on the bridgehead were deteriorating I knew that the priority was to get that information there and make sure that information is correct for a hold of the instant correct

01:17:37 for a hold of the instant correct information going to bridgehead was paramount and that's why I cross-referenced everything I possibly could in my power right and that's why I made that decision there to change the the two forms beneath that we're even

01:17:49 the two forms beneath that we're even less legible because this is a carbon copy and you see where it says from Cu list there that's been put on on top so you can see the difference in right the legibility so your point of in your statement about that the most importance

01:18:02 statement about that the most importance the white one being the most important it is a legibility point it's just the most legible hundred-percent you're right and do they get less legible as you get down the pad I say yes that's can you just have it in terms of the order in which they appear you've got

01:18:14 order in which they appear you've got the white one on top to you yes and then the yellow one is it second a second sir yeah and then the blue one third I believe so and then the green one for physics believe so blue or ER okay yes and when you are filling these out we

01:18:28 and when you are filling these out we you say the white one went to the bridgehead and they the yellow well I think as you say went to the command unit you kept the other two forms so you kept the blue

01:18:39 the other two forms so you kept the blue and the green to do yes why did you keep them because they're there to update if any further information comes true I can put that information on to that form form can goes back to the see you can go back to the bridgehead

01:18:50 back to the bridgehead we can update about so we can cross-reference with flat one six four nineteen floor and that update can be amended right and you'll know from that color that that isn't an updated

01:19:01 color that that isn't an updated information I see okay did you jumping hill a little bit to something I'm going to ask you later but when you up when you did an update did you then send the physically updated yellow sorry blue or

01:19:12 physically updated yellow sorry blue or green form up to the bridgehead I can only recall one physical update and it was a quarter of recontacting control and told that smoke or fire bleep was smoke was entering their window via I

01:19:25 smoke was entering their window via I believe the kitchen I've transmitted that to the bridgehead and I updated a form and that was taken by one of the brothers to the bridgehead

01:19:36 by one of the brothers to the bridgehead so it happened definitely happened once it might have happened a couple more times but it would not be more than two or three times I believe right process

01:19:49 that is your question okay and where did you keep the blue and green forms while

01:20:01 you keep the blue and green forms while you were working on the car bonnet so I speak later on over trying to get some kind of organization and Billy from Hammersmith was fundamental in that will be when we realize I think if we just go

01:20:12 be when we realize I think if we just go back to one of my recent one in the other FSG forms I've written a number at the top I might be as I help you with that okay the first one to come out let's go to the first one okay so you

01:20:25 let's go to the first one okay so you can see a number of top maybe 11 yes and this is the second copy or so this that's the 11th FSG that I carried out this is still on the carb on it right

01:20:36 this is still on the carb on it right because I have abandoned that process as I went to the floor so I knew there's a lot of FSG is coming in and I wanted a quick process to be able to cross-reference my FSGS and I thought a

01:20:48 cross-reference my FSGS and I thought a numbering system would help and I remember I think I've got some number 13 and Billy took another FSG so I was that overwhelmed and he put number 12 and I've been number 14 it started to break

01:20:59 I've been number 14 it started to break down around him number 13 14 that's where they banded that process so that was me trying to get some kind of control over the flow of FSGS coming in so I could cross-reference and so it

01:21:10 so I could cross-reference and so it easy for me to say rather than one 161 at the bridgehead they could put them in numerical order and we could reference it that way right I realize that's not going to work for updating it of course

01:21:21 going to work for updating it of course so I asked Billy to start put him into piles piles floors one to 10 10 to 20 and 20 in part because we always have a floor number and we'd not we don't

01:21:32 floor number and we'd not we don't flatten them that oh I see so you know I ban sorcerer so I abandoned that number in insert circling around number 13 14 I believe

01:21:44 can I ask you to turn to page four internally of this date document where we have a yellow version and page five whereas a blue version just looking at

01:21:57 whereas a blue version just looking at the yellow version if they've got 14 at the top and a ring if you just flip between one on the other you look at the yellow one you could see 14 in a rings and next page the same let's have a both

01:22:11 and next page the same let's have a both up there at the same time they both relate to 175 20th floor that's correct

01:22:21 and if you if you have if you look at the bottom part of each of the documents somebody's added on the blue version five persons three adults two kids do

01:22:35 five persons three adults two kids do you know how that oops further information came to be there so I don't know how that information would have met that obviously the white copy

01:22:46 have met that obviously the white copy is going to the bridge hm see by the dirt on it he's beat up on that on our floor the white poppy would have gone back to the Cu and obviously I'll be held holding two other copies where the information come from I'm not too sure I

01:22:58 information come from I'm not too sure I could've transmitted that by Ray J and not sent another form up if the Louisa the Silvo or whoever was at the bridgehead or confirm that because I

01:23:09 bridgehead or confirm that because I might have been overwhelm it as you can see I've taken 14 I believe I abandoned the numbering system on the carp on it so I've taken 14 FSGS on the cob on it I think I'd only there for less than 10

01:23:21 think I'd only there for less than 10 minutes

01:23:23 minutes very limited okay so we can use schematically can we use the number that you put in or on the top in a ring to guide us as to the order in which you

01:23:35 guide us as to the order in which you you dealt with these forms 100% for the early stage the instant when I was in the car Bonnie yes okay and you leave I abandoned it at the carp on it that might not be the case I might abandoned on the floor I'm pretty sure I remember

01:23:47 on the floor I'm pretty sure I remember going wrong wrong right not wrong I remembered his number sequencing going out I could teni more on the carp on it I may not to sit to abandon it okay last question before we break can I

01:23:59 okay last question before we break can I just show you page 33 of this bunch of documents and

01:24:06 this is a white version which has got a 1 on it and your name you can is that

01:24:17 1 on it and your name you can is that your writing it's pretty bad there's a good chance it will be yes oh okay do you remember right and do you remember writing that I don't remember one in that but that is yeah because I

01:24:28 one in that but that is yeah because I tried because I understand the concept of FSG and the CU and ICP and i was trying to get this link across that I was FSG in the base of the tower so when I was referred to in radio traffic

01:24:40 I was referred to in radio traffic between Louisa or the bridgehead and see you sent an old or was a FSG that based the tower suit so they knew which part of this process of trying to capture this information we're over bound with I was so I'd say that is that is my

01:24:54 was so I'd say that is that is my writing the fire at the door isn't my writing maybe through the window is even my way to neva so that might have been see that would have went up to the

01:25:05 see that would have went up to the bridge hair to straight away so that that writing for another one is screwed without bit I think would have been and that's that's a very first FST I did a toe 213 but I was that was my next

01:25:17 toe 213 but I was that was my next question that was your first one by my numbering system yes okay that may be a convenient moment for a break mr. J driving mid might be all the middle of this exercise and a fit for a break at this point mr. Sadler please don't talk

01:25:30 this point mr. Sadler please don't talk to anyone about your evidence during the break and we all come back and eleven o'clock and we'll be able to carry on that make sure I think you would like to go with the ocean

01:25:47 right 11 o'clock noon please

01:25:58 you

01:40:22 [Music]

01:40:38 alright mr. Sadler missing consent to carry on yes if the minute mr. Sadler thank you for coming back we're going to get back into that bunch of forms in a

01:40:49 get back into that bunch of forms in a moment but before I do I think it's an I think I do need to explore with you the envelopes that you say you've received let's just go back to your statement please first of all page three in the

01:41:03 please first of all page three in the fourth paragraph down on that page you say I was given an envelope by the officer that had flaws and flat numbers written on it and that was when you set

01:41:15 written on it and that was when you set up on a car bonnet I was at that time can I just show you that that's some M et triple zero one six nine six seven

01:41:29 now first of all do you know why the officer gave you this envelope I don't know why he gave me the envelope or

01:41:40 know why he gave me the envelope or where it come from all I interpreted with this

01:41:43 with this this was FSGS a can come through and that there you had captured in the most practical manner because of the as you can see there's an excessive a dozen FSG

01:41:56 can see there's an excessive a dozen FSG sir they've captured in the most practical manner and they've hopefully transmitted those to the bridgehead or they've given them to me to document and

01:42:07 they've given them to me to document and process right yet were you given when you were given this envelope did you add anything to it in writing or is all the writing that we can see on it what you were handed yes sorry sir I didn't write

01:42:18 were handed yes sorry sir I didn't write on there at all I was given that envelope

01:42:23 envelope it's a envelope into it on the front of it you can see in the background you see the checkered of the control the fit before with information boards at the back so this is on the carb on it I'll say the checker in the background there

01:42:35 say the checker in the background there is the top of the forward innovation board you can see that the shadow of my mobile phone so I was conscious that this information is at important to get to the bridgehead right

01:42:46 important to get to the bridgehead right hopefully it's been transmitted by fire ground radio there so I took a photo and I said to one of the firefighters by me we'll actually the officer who gave me get that to the bridgehead now and our process those that information from the

01:42:57 process those that information from the photograph on my mobile phone which I did process news I see do you know where that information had come from all that envelope would come from I believe and he might told me that they did come from

01:43:08 he might told me that they did come from the CEO I can't tell you for sure but the assumption that's information ECU is received what did the letters cu7 at the

01:43:20 received what did the letters cu7 at the top of that envelope mean to you at the time that was my point of contact right and the silver to the right is what's meant to silver and she was at the

01:43:31 meant to silver and she was at the bridgehead appreciation I could communicate wave on channel 3 did you know that before you receive the envelope or did you get that information from this envelope so no I knew cu7 was my point of contact at the very

01:43:43 my point of contact at the very beginning and that was firmed up by my two firefighters who went and did the

01:43:49 one thing that I will say what might help you with the time line I've got a time stamp on my iPhone for this photo of Oh - 19 ah right thank you

01:44:01 of Oh - 19 ah right thank you and is that timestamp something you're able to create into a document in hands in the Inquirer I have preached that if you say yes very good if you could give that to us that would be good say Oh 219 I did send

01:44:12 that would be good say Oh 219 I did send this in as evidence but nature on I I thought that might be that's very helpful no thank you very much before you've received this envelope did you

01:44:26 you've received this envelope did you start writing fast survival guidance calls down on the white slips of control information for someone Mary tells me like I didn't I thought I was given this

01:44:38 like I didn't I thought I was given this piece of information at a cop on it by the officer from the CEO however looking at the evidence there is time that I used my phone I put my phone on the club on it as a reference my iPhone and I

01:44:49 on it as a reference my iPhone and I kept having to Pressey to light it up to tell me the time right so I referenced the time for my iPhone and the screen shot missed they're both the same time so I have done FSG

01:45:01 done FSG forms prior to receiving us if you think you have the evidence mr. Chesser yes okay we'll explore that just a little bit in a moment focusing on this document on the screen underneath cu7

01:45:13 document on the screen underneath cu7 and DaSilva it says brett loft I see did that mean anything to you when you received it not at all so now did you ask the officer who gave you this

01:45:25 you ask the officer who gave you this this envelope what it meant no sir it was impressive number of FSGS I want to process them and get them up there as quick as possible right did you know anything about Brett

01:45:36 right did you know anything about Brett lofts role at the fire ground no all I knew was cu7 was my point of contact and my point of contact the bridge header - Louisa - silver right now in your

01:45:48 Louisa - silver right now in your witness statement you say at in the same paragraph

01:45:57 in the second line I think there were eight addresses on it when you when you did this statement did you have the envelope in front of you what the

01:46:09 envelope in front of you what the physical effort went to the bridgehead I never saw that again I had the photo of yet envelope however it's troubling to revisit this at times so I didn't only when the police were

01:46:22 so I didn't only when the police were interviewing me Atlanta Fire Station did I have a look afterwards and notice it was more I think it's maybe thirteen or fourteen thirteen but it's just something that I didn't really want to look at again when you show me those msg

01:46:34 look at again when you show me those msg forms then it was it just brings back understand no I understand okay you understand that if you need a break in this stage I'll find self oh yeah I'm just saying why that's inaccurate is

01:46:45 just saying why that's inaccurate is something I didn't want to look at again

01:46:49 yes

01:46:57 now can I

01:47:00 show you we just ask you just to confirm the envelope that we've got and I'm sorry do you have to put it up on the screen as feisty did you did you add anything to it at all in what a brown envelope yes before you

01:47:12 in what a brown envelope yes before you send it to the bridge not at all so I took a photo is maybe in my possession for 10 seconds I took up photo by tear gone right okay can I then just put a different version of it to you NFB 0 0 0

01:47:25 different version of it to you NFB 0 0 0 0 1 9 6 8 and I'd like you to be shown page 27 of that document

01:47:49 this is a another this is a photocopy I think of the envelope which you've seen

01:48:01 think of the envelope which you've seen and it has 18 6 at the bottom do you remember whether the version you sent to the bridgehead had those numbers

01:48:12 sent to the bridgehead had those numbers on it no I think the copy oh we had that just previous has a shadow of my phone over it but I believe there's nothing beneath that shadow I think one 5 to 18

01:48:24 beneath that shadow I think one 5 to 18 pregnant is the last piece of information that was on the envelope right when I had it in my possession and again the blue one the top-left corner that wasn't on there either

01:48:35 that wasn't on there either well it's going to ask you about that you say it's blue I'm just about to leave

01:48:40 leave that wasn't there either that's about okay now you got a runner well let me just ask you how did you send the note the envelope to the bridgehead good

01:48:52 the envelope to the bridgehead good question I I believe there was us as I was I would have had to run this by then because as the information shows I was sending FS G's at that time so I would have had runners right I can't remember

01:49:05 have had runners right I can't remember if the offset had that bit of information that I made him do it or I got when the runners to take that up but like I say it was with me I took that photon I want it up there straightaway okay and did you run a relay back to you

01:49:21 okay and did you run a relay back to you what he or she had done with the envelope no they just said to me it's gone at that okay when you handed the envelope you say in your statement in

01:49:32 envelope you say in your statement in the third line in the same paragraph they were so overwhelmed at this stage that information was being written on scraps of paper so some sort of structure was needed and who told you that where we say sorry

01:49:45 that where we say sorry it's the third it's the third I'm sorry I'm rushing you to know you so much if you go to the third line of this paragraph we have screams you say they were so overwhelmed at this stage that information was being

01:49:57 at this stage that information was being written all scraps of paper so some sort of structure was needed what I prefer today to contextualize it and my talk about to see you that is that what my frame like my question was first of all who told you the information that you've

01:50:11 who told you the information that you've recorded there in your statement while I knew them because I don't piece of paper given me oh I see okay so when you say they were so overwhelmed at this stage is that an an assumption that you're making about the fact from from the fact

01:50:23 making about the fact from from the fact that you've been given the envelope well yeah because policy guidance states that if possible you should you should what they most don't control inflation for

01:50:35 they most don't control inflation for but no rescue should be jeopardized in the short documentation of that information so they've done their best to write on a piece of paper which anybody would do and then I've come in and tried to get a little bit more

01:50:47 and tried to get a little bit more control of that information with petroleum major form so the piece of information I had on the envelope just proved how overwhelmed it were not through lack of resources maybe we'll luck resources but also the actual

01:50:59 luck resources but also the actual volume of FS cheese coming in it was just unprecedented to it so just to summarize your evidence that I understand it properly when you say they were so overwhelmed at this stage etc that's your thinking look because you

01:51:12 that's your thinking look because you are given the envelope with all these addresses on it yes because whoa why we did not bet on the control information form right another thing quality to state the fact that if that is a process you can do

01:51:23 that if that is a process you can do what well so you've got an information the bridgehead however slow is you capture information later that's fine having sent the runner off to the

01:51:34 having sent the runner off to the bridgehead with this envelope did you expect to receive any information back from the bridgehead about the results of any search-and-rescues deployed to the

01:51:45 any search-and-rescues deployed to the flats that were listed on the envelope later on you would hope so but I'd already processed if this evidence is right 14 FS G's to them is that right

01:51:56 right 14 FS G's to them is that right sir if my time stamp so to nineteen and one of the last FSGS number 214 is whatever

01:52:02 whatever that is yes that they they were overwhelmed yes what were you asked by anybody to keep tabs on what was happening within the

01:52:14 tabs on what was happening within the tower don't search-and-rescue into each of these addresses no but it's not purser nice happen charlie we're conscious that we want to try and create a flow of information and I'm when Charlie went in once Charlie about

01:52:26 when Charlie went in once Charlie about a big promoter Bobby went in once with some FSG information he did come back to me to say there's a lot of information being put up on the wall and I was conscious I wanted to see you to be aware of this and I tasked Charlie to

01:52:39 aware of this and I tasked Charlie to let the sea you know obvious information I left it at that charlie is a capable officer and that was carried out and as for the sea you to cap that information half they won't well every single post

01:52:51 half they won't well every single post position within this chain of FST was overwhelmed yes okay did you mention a moment ago I think that the information was being put up on the wall - charlie

01:53:02 was being put up on the wall - charlie better be tell you that that was what was happening he said in the lobby you know they've been on the wall so originally it was going up to the bridgehead these forms and when Charlie told me at their site we start to get

01:53:14 told me at their site we start to get some layers of control within within this now all the situation deteriorating the bridgehead I didn't have time I was still processing their first years in time to interrogate that but my

01:53:25 time to interrogate that but my assumption was either the bridge has deteriorated and I having to relocate to the ground floor or they put a search coordinator into this into this phase of rescues did there come a time when you learnt that whoever was running your

01:53:39 learnt that whoever was running your forms into the building was giving those forms to somebody standing in the lobby who was writing that information on a wall I do remember some fire parts come back to me I kept saying are they get to the bridge at all you give them to a

01:53:51 the bridge at all you give them to a white helmet because Fire Brigades so big I know Louisa and I know some various people but with in Landgraf I know the local station Soho and suchlike but North Carroll is fire fighters so I

01:54:04 but North Carroll is fire fighters so I couldn't ask what specifically who they give them to but so I was like are you giving these forms to a white helmet right so I knew that there would be some ownership there because a far part would be competent to take it but they might

01:54:17 be competent to take it but they might have other tasks that they might see more pressing they might understand so I just want to make sure that a white helmet who had a functional role up there was getting us information so yeah when it when it started when I started going to the lobby it was still going to

01:54:29 going to the lobby it was still going to what helmet it didn't trouble me too much because I made the assumption that they would get some kind of control on these searches right okay seems so you see at what point after you'd started

01:54:42 see at what point after you'd started writing out the control information forms and then sending the white copies into the building did you learn that somebody was recording that information on a wall in the lobby a white helmet as you said that was when I was over by the

01:54:53 you said that was when I was over by the bins okay right poor analogy I know but who knows maybe half an hour I think sir me sending 14 control information forms

01:55:04 me sending 14 control information forms up to the bridgehead and Louisa might be able to shed more light on this they would have been overwhelmed then and they would have had to start a process to connect have a surgical NATO put in place I think that's when that was

01:55:16 place I think that's when that was implemented that's just my assumption do you recall being shown a photograph of the what a whiteboard that was being used in cu7 sharing what was happening with fire survival guidance calls join innocent I

01:55:30 survival guidance calls join innocent I don't I know they came by to speak to me I don't know I saw that but I did see it later on when I was tasked to go around some of the triage areas and find out if

01:55:41 some of the triage areas and find out if anybody had being left the building had FSG so we could cross-reference that which is later mentioned some overdose right I did see that whiteboard down when I spoke to see you seven okay now

01:55:52 when I spoke to see you seven okay now can we then go back having looked at the envelope and we're gonna I'm afraid what I'm going to have to show you the envelope and some of these your fighter pieces of paper if you need a break at any time just saying we can stop for a

01:56:04 any time just saying we can stop for a few minutes thank you okay because I know that it brings things back can I ask you to look at the envelope first of all and just capturing head the first address flat 205 now I'd

01:56:19 head the first address flat 205 now I'd like you to be shown please page 33 of lfb 1922

01:56:34 now this is a white version which we looked at just before the break yes with the one on the top yes don't delude you through this but

01:56:45 yes don't delude you through this but let's see if we can see how far we get does that mean that that was the first one you processed I believe so yes sir so we're say no to 13 so cu7 weren't

01:56:56 so we're say no to 13 so cu7 weren't those really true sorry most buddy transmitted that by handheld radio on channel 3 to me well then they might have had that information and then that's physical then but brown over it's come to me at o2 19 if my time stamp is spread to my

01:57:08 o2 19 if my time stamp is spread to my iPhone and if we did you take it let me just ask you looking back at the envelope oK we've seen that it's the first one on the list did you adopt a systematic approach going down the list

01:57:21 systematic approach going down the list and I'll post on the forms yeah what officer yes you do so this is the first one to 13 does that mean that you didn't start processing fire survival guidance

01:57:34 start processing fire survival guidance on the carbonic before Oh 213 if this number sequencing is why I remember that was when the first person is when's I

01:57:46 was when the first person is when's I booked state is three so I booked state is 3 well we don't quite know that stuff but I think it was done by GPS there is in the evidence I think it was maybe a 153 correct me wrong wrong I believe

01:57:57 153 correct me wrong wrong I believe that has been done hotel two to one a hotel to to to by GPS I think it's a 154 if you go into the documents that the

01:58:09 if you go into the documents that the Fire Brigades did the timeline the fabricated up to oh 200 hours okay right and you think which time maybe Oh 146

01:58:23 and you think which time maybe Oh 146 sir maybe my memories not the great okay well someone someone behind me can find that well yeah and it's a it's documented by GPS yes and we

01:58:34 it's a it's documented by GPS yes and we looked at that before when for the very start of your evidence and you on the basis of your status - and you're telling it took 10 to 15 minutes we worked it out it was about 150 you arrived yes

01:58:46 arrived yes so on the basis that it's about 150 that you arrived after dating as far away from what you just said by reference to the the fire brigade document the ORR what do you want to tell us about that

01:58:57 what do you want to tell us about that this time mark ohter 4 to 13 I was assumed with the number secrets I got there I put my name I've said that um FSG outside yes that would be me starting to do FSG that would be the

01:59:10 starting to do FSG that would be the very I've got to say that's a very first episode I carry that ok now you told us what the photograph he took of the envelope was time stamped on your phone at Oh - 19 that's correct sir do you

01:59:21 at Oh - 19 that's correct sir do you think that you started there for carrying out the processing of the information on the envelope before you took the photograph of it yes but I didn't physically have that envelope

01:59:33 didn't physically have that envelope then so the information was coming to me by our channel 3 right information for me our Mobile's coming to me by channel 3 yes prior to me is he getting envelope and then press it so it might be a duplication within the episode control information forms have done there might

01:59:44 information forms have done there might be - 205 soon okay now so the white piece of paper at page 33 you think came

01:59:55 piece of paper at page 33 you think came by radio and then you were handed the envelope and you started work you only unbeli only evidence in the way I remember - I was given that at the beginning right this timestamp is what confuses me

02:00:06 confuses me I follow okay can I just ask you then about page 33 we could see the write in 205 12th floor number of persons in liquid within location not known and

02:00:17 liquid within location not known and then there's something condition within premises something written there something through window which has been deleted and far at the door do you remember on that first control

02:00:32 remember on that first control information form weather you took down information and then revised it before sending it to Louisa at the bridgehead no an s Charlie or Billy wrote that information but I took

02:00:43 Billy wrote that information but I took ownership of these documents and I've pulled them off and put them in the hands of the runners right so it's the very first one I'd like to say is there

02:00:55 very first one I'd like to say is there a duplicate copy along that yes and that's I will answer our question let me help you with that that's page 34 which is the yellow version of this I tell the

02:01:07 is the yellow version of this I tell the differences so just help me through this you've seen the purpose we have both up on the same page on the screen take the envelope away please mister doc you mister and let's have pages 33 and 34 of

02:01:21 mister and let's have pages 33 and 34 of LSB 1922 there so can you explain the differences first of all within the the

02:01:33 differences first of all within the the white piece of paper itself where you've got flames through window and then someone's written fire at the door and the question was do you think that went to the bridgehead with that amendment on

02:01:44 to the bridgehead with that amendment on it definitely because the Carbon Copy has to be written right where I am yes and then so sorry so then looking at the Carbon Copy if the carbon copy

02:01:57 the Carbon Copy if the carbon copy itself says to a five 12th floor not named as the white original does but then if you look at condition within premises you've got flames through the through window which is the copy of

02:02:10 through window which is the copy of what's on the white it looks like and there's been an amendment both to the yellow and to the white can you explain that

02:02:18 that so flames through window and yellow copy would be written on the white copy in my possession yes so that's gone up to the bridgehead fire at the door fire at the door has

02:02:29 fire at the door fire at the door has been written later on so fight with door and the whites be written the bridgehead to fire the door on the yellow has been written at the CEO right oh that's so new so far you know I would have the blue and the green copy right so those

02:02:43 blue and the green copy right so those two whites and yellow white to bridgeheads yellow see you I have no I only have the blue copy in the green copy with me either carp on it or the bins where I was so that information a lot of information come

02:02:54 information a lot of information come through from cv7 on channel 3 and I would have raided that up to Louisa and they would have maybe update that information then I would have endeavored to get a blue copy or green copy up to

02:03:05 to get a blue copy or green copy up to them that might not have happened because of the actual operational commitments reference to rest the FSGS you know if i transmitted that by rage

02:03:16 you know if i transmitted that by rage and they received it I'll take that as acceptable that they may have got that yes crowds races I'd send another format

02:03:23 ok did so just taking this in stages and the see if I can summarize your evidence accurately sure does this mean that what

02:03:34 accurately sure does this mean that what you sent to the bridgehead that this first FSG was the version that said flames through window which we can see on both the white and the yellow copies

02:03:45 on both the white and the yellow copies the white went to the bridgehead the yellow goes back to c7 or ICU and then there is an amendment fire at the door farted or which both

02:03:57 fire at the door farted or which both the bridgehead and c7 make correct does that show that there was a direct communication from the CU to the bridgehead no they communicate to me the whole time because I was capturing this

02:04:08 whole time because I was capturing this information so I would have rated Louisa and this is what I alluded to earlier it was in my conversation with you that I did have an update and this might be one of ever ever need the updates I received

02:04:21 of ever ever need the updates I received maybe I think because this is number one we had time for that as it evolved it was one way traffic okay so make sense sir yeah so I can see on the yellow cup you know that flames through a window is my right and I can

02:04:32 through a window is my right and I can see on the right is nice crib it out but that is my writing right okay so the sequence of events would be that the amendment to this would come by radio

02:04:43 amendment to this would come by radio from the CU to you yes sir control will contact the rate i'll controller on the call to the corner there is contact see you they get information the contact me is update

02:04:55 information the contact me is update that information on my formative a if I've got time oh I'll make sure that the bridgehead gets that information which they have right and so can you help with who wrote fire at the door on the white version no

02:05:06 fire at the door on the white version no that'd be someone at the bridgehead on the basis of information given to them by you yes by radio yes so at this does

02:05:17 by you yes by radio yes so at this does that tell us that at this early stage there was no difficulty with radio communications from the sea you to you and from you to the bridgehead that's correct yeah okay can I just then pursue flat to a5 a little bit if you go to

02:05:29 flat to a5 a little bit if you go to page 35 you can see a a yellow control information form which says flat 205 floor 23 and no other information on it

02:05:44 floor 23 and no other information on it and if you turn to page 36 it has the same in blues as the blue version flat 205 floor 23 but someone's added additional information to person left

02:05:56 additional information to person left the building first of all why was a second yellow and president and therefore blue control information form

02:06:07 therefore blue control information form done for flat 205 so this might further our hypothesis on what happens I gots transmitted by channel 3 FSG in black 205 yes we've alluded to and then

02:06:20 black 205 yes we've alluded to and then I've been given this envelope with flat 205 at the very top so I can't remember what I've worried transmitted well I put the information there on the blue in the green I'm so overwhelmed I'm just processing every bit of information I

02:06:31 processing every bit of information I get later on but Billy kind of got a bit of control over this where I said we've got it in two to stop duplication so we put it into sequences of one flap 1 to 10 10 to 20 and 20 and above right so we

02:06:42 10 10 to 20 and 20 and above right so we could see it was any duplications because we get a lot of people family members and loved ones coming up giving us information over the phone which I speak about later on in my in my statements and we didn't want to we want

02:06:55 statements and we didn't want to we want to update that information if possible we do want to create more FS G's and waste resources go into the same flat with two crews but not who could be deployed to rescue stress be someone else so this black 2:05 423 I

02:07:08 be someone else so this black 2:05 423 I don't know whether floor 23 comes from there because at 4:23 wasn't written on the ambulate was it no it wasn't and that's worth that's what I was going to draw to your attention because on pages

02:07:19 draw to your attention because on pages 33 and 34 the first pair the white and the yellow we looked at it was it said floor 12 remember I drew your attention to that again so let's go back to that then it's page 33 and 34 of

02:07:33 then it's page 33 and 34 of lfb 192 I just get back to that

02:07:43 yes now you see it says 2:05 12th floor so those this would be 23 is a long way

02:07:55 so those this would be 23 is a long way from 12 in terms of interpreting that or we'd have to look at the short short report what control information with moving given if that's been lost in translation between the CEO myself or

02:08:08 translation between the CEO myself or the caller or the interpretive differently well sense we will have to do that but just you know we know it's a mistake and we know that flat to a

02:08:19 mistake and we know that flat to a believe is in the very first surfaced you have carried out our services yes no I'm not we know it doesn't matter don't say okay my point is that we know it's wrong and it is on the 23rd floor not

02:08:32 wrong and it is on the 23rd floor not the 12th floor yes all I'm just trying to explore with you at the moment is if you get back to 35 and 36 mister documents director if you could do that and then you now see flat 205 this time

02:08:43 and then you now see flat 205 this time with the floor the correct floor 23 on it my question is do you remember how that correctional corrected floor came through to you no and that's not

02:08:55 through to you no and that's not numbered so that's that's later on if my substance work with my numbering system that's later on in the incident my next question is when you look at page 36 someone has written on the blue

02:09:07 page 36 someone has written on the blue copy to person left building you know given that you told us earlier you kept the blue and green copies the yellow one went to the Cu each time do you know who wrote those words on

02:09:21 do you know who wrote those words on that form that's not my thing those forms would have been in my possession I had crew magic battery and Billy I feel I forget his surname Broderick Navy firefighter Broderick

02:09:33 Broderick Navy firefighter Broderick that might be correct I'm not too sure is the scene at hand at Hammersmith I think he was having sorry so he's called Ben actually then he says okay apologies it might have been him that was helping me and when he kind of got

02:09:45 was helping me and when he kind of got this system together he might have updated that but that blue form was with us and think this would happen around Ranieri at the bins time now where we've kind of up on the bins okay and how would

02:09:57 up on the bins okay and how would that information have come to you or believe any CU 7 channel 3 channel 3 right can we take it that let's see how we go with this what one more document in this particular group page 37 please

02:10:12 in this particular group page 37 please which is also related to flat 205 do you do you know what that document is that

02:10:24 do you know what that document is that means I plus the same handwriting as the envelope is it not oh I don't know but I would say is right but okay we'll have you ever seen this document before that's a note but the one Pregnant's

02:10:37 that's a note but the one Pregnant's have a refers to what was on the envelope well yes so you haven't if you haven't seen this before I can't I know I can help no you

02:10:49 before I can't I know I can help no you can't help me with it do you know who Richard Walsh or perhaps Welsh was senior officer in the fire brigade right an Andy Walton yeah do you

02:11:04 brigade right an Andy Walton yeah do you know what their involvement was at the time would that would relate to these floors and flats no let me just then pursue this a little bit more on these documents if I can we don't have numbers

02:11:19 documents if I can we don't have numbers 2 & 3 I think with us at the moment but number 4 we looked at one number four is at page 32 and this is the yellow

02:11:31 at page 32 and this is the yellow version page 231 is the white version this is flat 204

02:11:39 and you perhaps best thing is to have both on the screen let's start with the yellowed version because that's got the four at the top which is where I started

02:11:50 four at the top which is where I started page 32 if this was the fourth version but is only the second one on the envelope which it is taken from me that

02:12:03 envelope which it is taken from me that it's the second one down what sort of order were you were you doing these in

02:12:19 so obviously the white copy there's informations come from what's when into silver so I've had that information maybe come back from Louisa and I've captured yet on that form I think we're still overwhelmed at that time so I

02:12:31 still overwhelmed at that time so I couldn't cross-reference if we had any other two Oh Falls so I want to capture that information number four here the Edit one turn four 23rd floor that's how

02:12:42 Edit one turn four 23rd floor that's how they went into the instant what I was going to ask you because you looking at number 4 which is the looks like the fourth one you'd have processed to a four twenty third floor which is which

02:12:55 four twenty third floor which is which is correct there's also some writing at the top on it do you know how that got there and what that is that's we've seen that before haven't we not that could

02:13:09 that before haven't we not that could have been pushed fruit from another pad right it could be that would be on that wing victim on a white piece of paper but it could have been written push through from number three if number three spot the written on there the twos

02:13:20 three spot the written on there the twos but it written on will never ones but it written on yes I see okay I'm with mister just help me for a moment we're looking at these two documents on the screen they're not copies of the same

02:13:31 screen they're not copies of the same document

02:13:32 document okay no they're not they're two totally different forms I've written to have I've written a control information form for two or four twice I've received that information twice we're so overwhelmed

02:13:43 information twice we're so overwhelmed we didn't have a system for sequencing well I wasn't promoting criticizing you I'm just trying to understand why we're looking at these if they had some sort of relevance tree but there's a very

02:13:55 of relevance tree but there's a very good question and I put the question I think I'm a full spaces which was that the yellow version of 32 is the copy of the white version of 31 at a time that is I think the answer is that is not so yeah but it's white

02:14:07 yeah but it's white sorry so whatever is written on the white copy we would be copied on me yeah right so can you help me then with the relationship between 30 page 32 and 31

02:14:23 so I believed and this is this timestamp of the envelope this what's confusing me that's the fourth one that one on the

02:14:35 that's the fourth one that one on the left

02:14:36 left number 32 is the fourth FSG are carried out which is commands transmitted to me by handheld radio and then this 204 does it say flat 204 on the envelope on the

02:14:47 it say flat 204 on the envelope on the 21st floor so that's when I might process that form at a later date no it says 204 23rd well plus you can be shown that that's M et triple zero one six

02:14:59 that that's M et triple zero one six nine six seven just to get back to the envelope mmm it says flat zero for 23rd floor so I believe that information that on the white pop it's my writing that

02:15:11 on the white pop it's my writing that might come from Louisa and I've just captured that on another form to try and capture information so it wasn't lost and I either Louise's transmitted 21 or heard 21 there's been some miscommunication which is highly

02:15:22 miscommunication which is highly possible as long as we capture the black number that's the most important thing however that information could have been interpreted wrong or it could be what we

02:15:33 interpreted wrong or it could be what we were told at that time it was some struggle with the flats and flaw and then there's nothing to see you Matt Holliday okay um looking at 31 at

02:15:44 Holliday okay um looking at 31 at looking at page 31 of 1922 given 30 it says 21st floor but given them on the envelope it says 23rd floor for flat 204

02:15:55 envelope it says 23rd floor for flat 204 do you think that the white version on the right-hand side of the screen was the one you sent to the bridgehead that's definitely a bridgehead sir because this well I'm sorry to interrupt

02:16:06 because this well I'm sorry to interrupt again but it looks to me as if the right conversion is a photocopy of something look at the bottom of the form you can see has been damaged

02:16:18 yes which means that it may not be a white person but that may be so I don't know I'm afraid I can't help with it but

02:16:31 know I'm afraid I can't help with it but I mean it may be the questions that have been put the witness have been put on the basis that is not happy to correct yeah and I think mr. chairman and we can check this over the shorter journal but we're working on the basis of of color

02:16:42 we're working on the basis of of color copy so I've assumed and I think everybody's assumed that the white version or white but my point is that if that if that's a photocopy it couldn't

02:16:53 that if that's a photocopy it couldn't could it not be a photocopy of a yellow form not if it's a Caliphate a couple not his color well yes because if the original is a photocopy and let me see how again then

02:17:08 photocopy and let me see how again then let's let's move on Orestes and then the rest of Pinder right so yes we can do that

02:17:16 that Ivers I ever seen perhaps wrongly that wherever we have a white piece of paper in this color photocopy run that it's the top cover no you may be right

02:17:30 the top cover no you may be right valid in home having regard to the bottom of the sheet that we can see I think most people just ought to check that out very well mr. Chan you can do

02:17:42 that out very well mr. Chan you can do that let's move just let's let's not let's move on to page 22 then which i think is the fifth version or the fifth exercise

02:17:54 exercise you did

02:17:59 can you help with this this is flat one line five which we have on the envelope

02:18:11 line five which we have on the envelope is the third address down flat one line five twenty second floor

02:18:20 now we don't I think have the white version of this information my name and hotel 22 is now on the fifth document so I think that's being pushed through from

02:18:31 I think that's being pushed through from yes but it's the fifth version or fifth exercise you did but it appears third in the list on the envelope just does that what does that tell us about the order

02:18:43 what does that tell us about the order in which you were going about filling in these control information forms I think I would have carried these I think this form I don't know this is the format

02:18:55 form I don't know this is the format charlie or so I'm just want to help me complete the forms that might be that might actually be the case now so we're going into poverty through this and that maybe that's where the seats in by the

02:19:06 maybe that's where the seats in by the part it's just this timestamp of over 290 on my phone really messes up what how ice hire visit my head I envisage in my head that I've got this brown envelope very early on into the incident

02:19:17 envelope very early on into the incident to start processing it it's just that time some really questions questions out of my head

02:19:26 okay can I then try another one on you which is not on the envelope but is flat one nine three at page 20 we've got a

02:19:43 one nine three at page 20 we've got a yellow version four flat one nine three twenty second floor where someone has

02:19:54 twenty second floor where someone has written condition within premises ten people inside source unknown by Cu and if we can also have on the same

02:20:08 but the scream cage 21 I'm so sorry page 22 no 21 I was right I'm so sorry 21 flat and flat both these are both for

02:20:23 21 flat and flat both these are both for flat 193 that they can you help us with the differences that we can see between these two yellow forms it's a shape up

02:20:36 these two yellow forms it's a shape up up at the time on this but that's how overwhelmed I was because I would have a lot of light well if its sources see you source unknown virus to you I was getting a lot of people coming up to me loved ones for family members rightly so

02:20:49 loved ones for family members rightly so with them on the phone and I wanted to capture that information and I had a control information form or an ephah Steve by nature is west winds on the phones control receiver fire survival guidance and we put on this form I

02:21:02 guidance and we put on this form I wanted to have a way of capturing that information where it didn't get last yeah we're aware it's not come from controls come from the fire ground I think this is well written source unknown by the see you I think this what

02:21:13 unknown by the see you I think this what it means someone come up to the CEO I'm knocking on the door and now we're it's been updated again to 11 persons from 10 they might have come back again and updated that again we're so overwhelmed with Pam Lisa we're getting I'm

02:21:24 with Pam Lisa we're getting I'm literally just capturing out on a new controller information form because we haven't got together with the amount of paperwork we've got would there be white versions for each of these yeah hundreds and yes so would that mean that the

02:21:36 and yes so would that mean that the bridgehead was getting two different white versions of the same for the same flattered in an ideal situation they would have got the blue version and a green version but were so overwhelmed that we couldn't get any control over

02:21:49 that we couldn't get any control over them that paperwork we've bought at that time right certainly most and this wasn't an FSU this was coming from a number of public huffily right okay and

02:22:01 number of public huffily right okay and so can you explain on page 21 who might have written the word source see you under additional information that would have had to be me looks like my scribble in case add the white copy would have to

02:22:12 in case add the white copy would have to be on top right

02:22:16 only when it's a different color ink on the same page it's being updated outside of my control okay

02:22:29 it okay similarly again seem to see how far we get with this if you go to pages 12 and 13 of the same bundle of

02:22:40 12 and 13 of the same bundle of documents this is for flat 183 which also does not appear on the envelope we've got the yellow version on the left

02:22:52 we've got the yellow version on the left and the blue version on the fondant right we also have a white version for fought for 183 but I'm afraid I can't put all three onto the screen and again

02:23:09 put all three onto the screen and again mr. chair may be right about this but it seems to be a photocopy but let's look at the yellow and the blue first of all because we know that you at least kept the blue the yellow goes to the sea you

02:23:20 the blue the yellow goes to the sea you can you explain and they look identical because the yet were blue and the yellow map as if they've come from the same pressing on the white but can you explain the addition under additional

02:23:31 explain the addition under additional information of six adults one pregnant there so moving on update five cu7 on channel 3 okay that's it originally got this black one eight three twenty first I believe this come from see you sevens have not made the additional

02:23:42 have not made the additional informations come from the fire grounds right so we take that in FSG and you'll be able to document that by this short instant log that if there is nephew taking place right through control and somehow I provide control we've got an

02:23:53 somehow I provide control we've got an update it's actually six others were one pregnant so that's not my writing to either Ben or Charlie or one of the other firefighters have helped me is updated that and sent that's good bridgehead or to the CEO right can I

02:24:07 bridgehead or to the CEO right can I then show me you pages 14 and 15 now

02:24:18 these are also for flat 183 can you help us with with this the

02:24:28 white version as we can see 183 and 23rd floor which is in Boulder type because it looks like it's been corrected look -

02:24:40 it looks like it's been corrected look - look - the untutored eye as if the yellow is a copy from the white cover and they're identical premise number floor number of persons condition within

02:24:52 floor number of persons condition within premises and then you've got some details under additional information down to number 22 and then somebody is written on the yellow version priorities

02:25:05 written on the yellow version priorities underlined and then somebody's written on the white at the bottom one 592 153 and one one three can you help with the

02:25:17 and one one three can you help with the differences between these two documents then what one is a copy of the other it looks like the white one would have gone under your system to the bridgehead who would have on the white violent one added 92153 and one one three b1 it's

02:25:36 added 92153 and one one three b1 it's definitely done that's where we're doing the FSG because it's not on the carbon copy rise that has gone somewhere and has been updated at a later date see and by who do you know if I had updated it

02:25:49 by who do you know if I had updated it and be pressed onto the yellow copy okay so that's gone inside the top so when it's either tacky and who wrote do you know who have written priorities in capitals on the yellow version that's a

02:26:01 capitals on the yellow version that's a different color to the carbon copy so that's been added at a later date right and I learned that that's yellow copy has gone to see you seven okay and

02:26:17 finally on this flat sir do we have we sorry just because I did transmit a lot priorities up to Louisa Rhea 10 persons

02:26:29 priorities up to Louisa Rhea 10 persons I'd be the reason we got ten persons flat it is stuck in this flat the FSG form is on its way so they might have documented that information somewhere so he might have updated aunties is there an FSG for flat much 92 individual one

02:26:40 an FSG for flat much 92 individual one five three individual on one one three individual because I might have transmitted that to her whilst we want to get in finish together so especially when it was tenth he were trapped in the flat I brought that to her so she might have written that down

02:26:51 her so she might have written that down or someone with her might have written that down that makes sense so wasn't just a physical form I'd actually transmitted on channel three that we've

02:27:02 transmitted on channel three that we've got ten persons the forms on its way but with the the people jump in and the debri fallen it was at times a minute or so to get into the tower yeah I call it

02:27:13 so to get into the tower yeah I call it I see

02:27:14 I see so okay maybe maybe this is an example I don't know but if you turn to page 10 we're still on flat 183 perhaps you can help you with this

02:27:32 that this is and again with because it's white it's not necessarily a white document we can check but could you help with with this this is again about 183

02:27:43 with with this this is again about 183 on the 21st trapped in different writing and then some additional information underneath it that looks very clean as well for it to have gone to the bridgehead wanted to be 21st I think

02:27:58 bridgehead wanted to be 21st I think I've written that tract three adults is that you're writing my right and changes quite a lot server and I was pretty yep

02:28:09 yes I'd say that is my my writing I've not let the taught yes I would say that is my rights and sir okay and would you've got would you have sent that that

02:28:21 you've got would you have sent that that page page ten to the to the bridgehead assuming that it's a white cover sheet or not a photocopy of a yellow egg every single piece of paper that was white went to that bridgeheads line because I

02:28:32 went to that bridgeheads line because I tore it off whether quite an ethical system which which worked really well there was times where I had limited runners so there was delay where of maybe two minutes went went back to the

02:28:43 maybe two minutes went went back to the see you which was halfway down rental roads it's about a good thirty thirty second run away but everything went straight away and there was never really

02:28:55 straight away and there was never really a time where there was nobody to run a white woman to the top pick okay we I don't think we've got a yellow version of that white control sheet but just

02:29:06 of that white control sheet but just going back to we're just comparing that with the earlier one eighty three we've got a page fourteen do you think that the version at page 14 was a later

02:29:20 the version at page 14 was a later version or an earlier version do you know within the one at page 10 for flat 183 it's a 14 B on the right you say you asking if 14 is a later version or earlier version yeah

02:29:32 version or earlier version yeah is 14 a later version or an earlier version not to answer that question I can't I know okay is it no reference on that alright um let me see if I can just

02:29:45 that alright um let me see if I can just try something slightly different um flat 183 is not actually on the 23rd floor it is on the 21st floor does does that help you explain this is the

02:29:59 that help you explain this is the sequence of events in terms of generation of this so maybe that the one on the right has got more information on it so I'd say that might be the later the latest one looks like it has been amended yeah there's like it's been

02:30:11 amended yeah there's like it's been amended long this is the white copyrights of this I know that could have been me and I could it this but could it be me amending it if have you got the yellow copy of the evidence 14 no yeah the eloquent years

02:30:25 evidence 14 no yeah the eloquent years of page 15 if you could just check out and see this is 21 or 23 on that short race Paige Regan of page 15 are

02:30:40 so that's amended so I've amended that so they've transmitted me 183 21st floor before I turn it off they said no correction 23rd floor so the one I left I'd say was our very first right

02:30:51 I'd say was our very first right evidence 10 is the very first bone this is an update that's pretty awesome come on I just think go back to the white version of the yellow version we've got there which is which is page 14 which is all the information

02:31:06 14 which is all the information additional information added there which is about different flats it's not about 183 it's about one like you can see the list is that your don't think I did ask

02:31:19 list is that your don't think I did ask you this is that your handwriting there under again my hand right it's quite inconsistent and I was I was overwhelmed at the time that I was even put the time I know the how important that is yeah the precedent was just get it up there and not get my phone back out can we

02:31:30 and not get my phone back out can we look at a yellow if it's on the yellow form served if that's my handwriting yes but some of it is not all of it so what is on that forms matter so let's look at 14 and 15 again

02:31:48 I should have asked you this slightly earlier on I'm sorry that you gave an answer later so I'm just coming back to pick it up that on both the yellow and the white downs down to 22 got 22 11 23

02:32:02 the white downs down to 22 got 22 11 23 11 16 22 you see yes and the writing there you is that you're just to be very clear is that your writing do you think yes is 92 on the white 92153 what that's

02:32:16 yes is 92 on the white 92153 what that's been added and priorities on the yellow Denali so white has been added it inside the tower varieties has been added inside the CEO okay and is this an example of what you were telling us about earlier which is sending FSG

02:32:28 about earlier which is sending FSG information on block in one piece of paper to the bridgehead so not just the flat not just the premises to which the control information is related but more information for defame flat I think this

02:32:40 information for defame flat I think this must have happened let's hope my structure the very beginning number in the top this must have happened remember I do a mass influx card when we're back on the when we can move so I

02:32:51 we're back on the when we can move so I moved from the car because people would jump in and move to the floor and then from the floor I moved to the business yeah I feel like a break do you think

02:33:04 yeah I feel like a break do you think did you well we're coming up to time when we would expect a tree or a mr. John can I just say I think you should be happy should have a break yeah I found it just one thing I just need to appreciate be able to check which is

02:33:16 appreciate be able to check which is what these are what the originals look like um I've got a message through yes that we may be able to do that quickly you did occur to me we might want to see the original first verb that's what I'm

02:33:28 the original first verb that's what I'm just exploring so we're gonna have a break now any event so and we'll come back at 5:00 past 12:00 don't talk to anyone about where he couldn't make it just took some

02:33:41 where he couldn't make it just took some time right 5,000 please

02:33:57 you

02:46:59 I think mr. Sadler is on his way now yes serious

02:47:12 mr. server and Kiki policies mr. Saturday from casual thank you coming back back to us I've got just one or two more questions on this run of documents never will move

02:47:24 on this run of documents never will move away from them finally it is that okay put it okay um can I ask you to be shown pages 8 & 9 first of all of the same sheet of documentation 192 - this relates to flap

02:47:40 documentation 192 - this relates to flap 182 on the 21st floor and that can we please also have page 9 the blue version

02:47:52 please also have page 9 the blue version of at the same time

02:48:00 can you help us with the differences this is I should say this is number 10 that you did which appears in fact on

02:48:12 that you did which appears in fact on the regulator as the fourth or seventh entry down it doesn't matter but it is on it is on the envelope you did it as number ten as we can see but there appear to be to the naked eye

02:48:24 appear to be to the naked eye differences so on the yellow version which would have gone to the see you there's 182 which has been written over and then 21st floor written over and

02:48:39 and then 21st floor written over and that writing over doesn't appear on the blue version but also the words on the yellow version 182 21st floor appear within the tram lines for the Box

02:48:50 within the tram lines for the Box premise number but don't appear within the tram lines on the blue version may they live they go over the line can you can you help us with those differences the only assumption I can make varies

02:49:01 the only assumption I can make varies the number ten on the yellow form I can't see a carbon print beneath it if

02:49:12 can't see a carbon print beneath it if that makes sense so yes I believe the one on the right is the original ten the one on the left is a duplicate one eight

02:49:23 one on the left is a duplicate one eight two twenty-first floor that may be the seize up updated it by over writing because you've got my carbonate I'm a carbon copy the beneath it's icy I'm dark ink on top of it so the right one

02:49:35 dark ink on top of it so the right one the right is original number ten and one eight two is a duplicate I think the seniors updated that information or correct that information as it's come through okay and how do you account for the difference in placement of the words

02:49:47 the difference in placement of the words one eight two they're two totally different documents sir right as in the that the blue one wasn't with the yellow one in that pack of four yeah I've done

02:49:58 one in that pack of four yeah I've done a 180 to again nice in repetition and it's been updated and the tents been added I believe okay do you remember doing do you have any recollection of doing flat 182 more

02:50:11 any recollection of doing flat 182 more than one's concert I don't and there is so much information that my best philosophy was to capture it we just it was relentless every 20 seconds every 20 second I just couldn't I just didn't

02:50:23 second I just couldn't I just didn't want to miss a single thing to whatever I heard I captured in the sea any way I could capture it absolutely I understand collect just ask you to look at the blue version there's there's some writing

02:50:34 version there's there's some writing under additional information I don't know whether you can read it it's difficult to read but can you help can you help us with that

02:50:45 you help us with that it looks like crew something but I can't help further can you know maybe the very 1/3 person we got is there a time there

02:50:56 1/3 person we got is there a time there how would that get on decks it's a carbon copy that's a carbon copy so what's color sheets prefixes follows a

02:51:09 what's color sheets prefixes follows a yellow one is it blue or was it green I'm sorry I can't remember I guess that could not be written lightly on the form above and it's pushed free right I think the order is well you help me

02:51:20 I think the order is well you help me the order looks from that ago you white yellow blue and then green underneath so there's a blue clock that's green are we saying on the right that's blue well

02:51:31 saying on the right that's blue well blue that this maybe knows greenish doesn't it confusing it maybe we if we need to pursue this perhaps we should see the original book well I'm told mr. chairman that the originals have been

02:51:42 chairman that the originals have been asked for but will not be here before I'm hoping to finish this witness they were able to manage that sort them all right so we sorry so we saying the one I write is a blue form what I've assumed

02:51:55 write is a blue form what I've assumed that it's blue by virtue of this color but we disagree all right well that's I think there's any so far we can presume that

02:52:03 that blue and green if it's alright I'm going

02:52:14 blue and green if it's alright I'm going to leave that I think the time being sorry I can't I don't know that really helpful with it and my questions on that have been I suspect not that easy to follow but it's a just trying to get to the bottom of the communication system

02:52:25 the bottom of the communication system just in terms of is panning back from the detail of these documents and looking at the system you are operating at this early stage based largely on the envelope information you've had can i

02:52:39 envelope information you've had can i summarize her evidence in terms of the system you were using which was that you would get information from the envelope or from the radio write it down on the white version with the yellow underneath

02:52:51 white version with the yellow underneath and the blue and the green send the white to the bridgehead the yellow to the sea you keep the blue and the green number the yet the the blue version that

02:53:03 number the yet the the blue version that you had number all of them on the white version as I'm son white snails I don't with the white version right but that was only when I was on the carp on it in

02:53:14 was only when I was on the carp on it in the early stages until people started to jump him from the building we had to relocate yes because it was too dangerous got it right numbering the white version at that stage that's helpful and not only happened at the car pani I think there

02:53:25 happened at the car pani I think there might be some some of the forms that there's a scribble eggs of the number and circle and that's where I start to fall apart you know actually it wouldn't have worked that system anyway flat and flawless and I didn't I didn't think it

02:53:36 flawless and I didn't I didn't think it evolved that many forms I thought we didn't it doesn't you know okay that's very helpful and in terms of any amendments that were made to the versions you retained the

02:53:47 made to the versions you retained the green and blue or blue and green you write those down based on information you were getting via radio channel three from cu7 answer yes myself or bareness I

02:54:00 from cu7 answer yes myself or bareness I believe is called all Charlie right and then in terms of the system you weren't using you would then communicate that to the bridgehead directly by radio that's - Luiza fundamentally and then I think

02:54:12 - Luiza fundamentally and then I think some other people sometimes it might not be followed up with a form because of priority FSG might have come in I'll process that but song as I knew that that information going to the bridgehead to the reason and she acknowledged it I

02:54:24 to the reason and she acknowledged it I was happy that that information could be captured up there like I said until a couple hours in see instance where we are treading water were overwhelmed okay

02:54:35 are treading water were overwhelmed okay now until until that time were you able to have free contact with Louisa - silver at the bridgehead take me a couple of times to raise her within 10

02:54:46 couple of times to raise her within 10 seconds which channel are you using to do that three as well so Louisa would hear there was various radio channels up at Libby channel one beach house six for BA and Louise would be on channel three

02:54:57 BA and Louise would be on channel three right so I don't know if you look if she was here in the see you directly but the CEU was overwhelmed and it was clear that they could not collect this information around control information forms they're so overwhelmed and where

02:55:09 forms they're so overwhelmed and where we were by getting it by hand held radio and me document on that form we cut down the travel time from see you a back up bar by about a minute it wasn't far down the road but it was thirty seconds each way that we cut that minute down where

02:55:21 way that we cut that minute down where the base of the tower or a focal point for people walking up with phone calls of loved ones inside I captured that information there as well until the police tightened up the cordon and the people obviously aged through the police

02:55:32 people obviously aged through the police to let us know if their loved ones being in sight I see was Louise are able if she wanted to to radio you back with any

02:55:43 she wanted to to radio you back with any information about the results of any deployment of ba wearers she did but to contextualize it it was one way traffic Louisa was overwhelmed in my opinion I didn't go up there up there she was

02:55:55 didn't go up there up there she was overwhelmed processing the information I was giving her verbally and physically biocontrol information for and process and that's just carryout get teams to go and carry out search and rescues so not much information if any

02:56:06 rescues so not much information if any came back about subsequent rescues carried out that's obviously that layer was later added in the lobby as a sir I believe there might be a search coordinator to try and collect that

02:56:18 coordinator to try and collect that information these layers are added as we start to get a bit more control to me coming in

02:56:22 coming in information forms was an aspect of gained control over what was an unprecedented and so in the childhood situation yes okay you mentioned

02:56:33 situation yes okay you mentioned prioritization a moment ago did you yourself carry out any prioritization of FSG information which you then sent to the bridgehead I wasn't privy to very much information in terms of the

02:56:45 much information in terms of the compartment conditions so but I did descend I'd always say priority to Louisa on the radio when I had a high volume at mystique so the single FS G's

02:56:57 volume at mystique so the single FS G's are trying right sides but if I had 10 people in compartment three people at compartment I'll get that to her straightaway just in case they had any crews nearby but every everyone the ones

02:57:08 crews nearby but every everyone the ones that come through a single come through quite quickly and I could processors ran in when there was a look at the delay I'd prioritize that and it's the ones with the ten people in and three people

02:57:20 with the ten people in and three people in I did send them as a priority to her I said that we have got ten people in the compartment and I wasn't privy to where that was in context of where the firewalls or weather conditions were worse I'd be wrong to me assume that

02:57:32 worse I'd be wrong to me assume that that's what a searchable net would do because he'd be privy to the informational Sheen privy to information coming about the PA crews that have been up there when you were doing your own prioritizing what criteria were you

02:57:43 prioritizing what criteria were you adopting so I would just say priority to her to try and get her attention and then I would say that there's ten people so if I had lots of single FSGS coming through I knew they could get it through quite quickly but I think I only sent a

02:57:55 quite quickly but I think I only sent a priority to her once or twice when there was the 10 people so as I we've got a lot of people in compartment she needs to be aware of this because she might need to send a team of six two teams of three did you ever come did you ever

02:58:07 three did you ever come did you ever prioritize when you were doing it at all int based on smoke density or conditions no I had no information to to make that assumption I only really did that one prioritize and that all I did to

02:58:19 prioritize and that all I did to focalize that there was 10 people in that compartment in it she would need to send a bigger team that now going back to your witness statement page four in Para 2 on that page you say

02:58:34 page four in Para 2 on that page you say that you were instructed by Stuart brown to get back underneath the covered walkway how long had you been at the car

02:58:49 walkway how long had you been at the car bonnet processing FSG information there when Stuart Brown told you to move back under the covered walkway time travels quite quickly when you're in a situation where there's a lot of information for

02:59:00 where there's a lot of information for me it felt like five ten minutes right debri was pulling quite heavily as I've mentioned some people jumped from the building and that was a time that it was

02:59:13 building and that was a time that it was we've kind of moved back I lay on the floor so say you were at a club on it was I relocate it to a location but maybe to here right and I lay on the floor with all the information in front of me so if you had started doing the

02:59:27 of me so if you had started doing the efforts tree information at 2:13 as the first FSG form shows us or even 2:19 when you took the photograph would that mean that five to ten minutes after

02:59:39 mean that five to ten minutes after either of those times you move back under the walkway in my opinion that might not be true to the best of your recollection yes sir yeah so that would

02:59:50 recollection yes sir yeah so that would be about 225 or 230 the only reason I feel the s50 kiss early on people were jumping from the tower and I remember

03:00:01 jumping from the tower and I remember thinking to myself I've only just arrived here and still fun to make the early stages of this part what are the conditions in that compartment that's driven this this person to do this I

03:00:13 driven this this person to do this I know I was quite shocked at this early into the fire it's only developing up the the corner of the south east corner of the block at the moment but obviously the conditions were so bad in their

03:00:26 the conditions were so bad in their compartment all the lobby's to escape that either they had to jump all they had to do trying to transfer with different compartment my lower floor and fell so I was shocked that it

03:00:38 floor and fell so I was shocked that it was at that stage it's early on yes and that's I just remember that that step in my mind it was very odd on into the incident

03:00:46 incident I was like this is already out of control but at around that time do you remember getting any information that Cruz was struggling to get above the 11th floor all right the 15th floor I'm

03:00:58 11th floor all right the 15th floor I'm so sorry the 15th floor all I remember here and I can't remember it was I think it's when I was at the I can't move it one has it been to what I took over one in control with my crew nage I've been back alone we're running three boards I think it

03:01:11 we're running three boards I think it might have been later on that the 11th floor they had two 45s in the lobby and they were making no effect on the fire there's a ruptured gas main or something

03:01:22 there's a ruptured gas main or something it does over at the bins I heard this or do believe it's maybe one or two code one engine control in the lobby that's any time I heard of difficulties making entry into bottles when you move

03:01:33 making entry into bottles when you move to gauge London to work under the cupboard walkway were you nearer or further away from the tower nearby five

03:01:44 further away from the tower nearby five meters okay okay

03:01:50 and when you were in the new location undercover you say that you started working your way through the envelope that you've taken earlier if you let me

03:02:02 that you've taken earlier if you let me just anchor that in your statement in the third line in the second substantive paragraph on page form you say at my new location about 5 meters further back on

03:02:13 location about 5 meters further back on the substantial recover I laid on the floor and started working my way through the envelope without taking a photo of all having been through the exercise we've been through this morning looking at the forms looking at the envelope and

03:02:27 at the forms looking at the envelope and talking about location do you think that it's right that you only started working your way through the envelope once you'd move back undercover I say that's a fruits yeah if I've said that is that in

03:02:39 fruits yeah if I've said that is that in my it's not like contemporary us know so is it that's a statement we can look at your your contemporaneous news I did look at those I didn't see that in that no so that would figure with me starting

03:02:53 no so that would figure with me starting to Annette first year over to 13 taking a photo to 19 I took a photo on a cop on it because you can see the FSG I sorry the FIB board beneath the photos that was taking on the cop on it so then I

03:03:05 was taking on the cop on it so then I might have been the situation of all that it was too dangerous to be where we were and relocated and then worked my way through that those timeframes seem

03:03:16 way through that those timeframes seem to seem to marry up sir [Music]

03:03:21 [Music] right only we've got the photograph for 219 and of the envelope I mean we've got your starting work on the FSG forms

03:03:32 your starting work on the FSG forms themselves at no 213 I said a little bit earlier than that I just wonder in the light of that whether it's correct that you only started working your way

03:03:44 you only started working your way through the envelope after you've moved away from the car bonnet to the cupboard walkway though it makes sense even if you know the FS geez I did not numbered them one through two four years they do

03:03:57 them one through two four years they do not that we're right in assuming they do not categorize as regards with the envelope do they download it so those are the mean FSGS from cu7 on the carbonic graphic evidence that I've

03:04:09 carbonic graphic evidence that I've taken the photo that relocates the floor when it was too dangerous I've carried on get on top of the control information forms for the envelope and I've relocated to the bins where another wave

03:04:20 relocated to the bins where another wave of FSGS come from cu7 channel three right so when you were on the carb on it does that mean that you weren't yet working through the envelope that might

03:04:32 working through the envelope that might be true if that's right the envelope might not have come to be then sir I took a photo like I said earlier that envelope is my possession for 10 seconds I took the photo I said get that up there straightaway I've got I've got it

03:04:44 there straightaway I've got I've got it captured here so if I am don't came to me at o2 18 it was gone Oh 219 and that was taken at the carb on it so that I would have relocated from the carb on it's the film process that information

03:04:56 it's the film process that information right Sammy sensor well if that being so were you

03:05:03 were you as I think you told us and I just certainly assumed in our discussions this morning working through far survival guidance control information forms on the car bonnet yes it was yeah

03:05:15 forms on the car bonnet yes it was yeah radio FSGS from cu7 channel 3 okay number one through two whatever right and then then I must have got this piece of paper 219 photographed it and

03:05:28 piece of paper 219 photographed it and start processing those so I see so it might be duplicates about 205 FSG MC c u7 channel free but in it's been documented on the envelope hopefully so to summarize it to say I have understood

03:05:39 to summarize it to say I have understood it right when you're on the carb on it with you work you're working on control information forms in the order you've

03:05:50 information forms in the order you've identified based on radio messages you then get the the envelope at 219 it goes straight up to the bridgehead and then

03:06:02 straight up to the bridgehead and then you move under the cupboard walkway and then you start working your way through the envelope in between parties coming through to see you seven channel three yes in between priorities coming to assembly base is gone up to the bridgehead already they've got that it's

03:06:14 bridgehead already they've got that it's captured I'm going to capture it in the correct manner however I'm going to process whatever comes to me as it comes okay and there might be duplicates because I didn't half the time I didn't have the ability to cross-reference I just want to capture absolutely

03:06:25 just want to capture absolutely everything I had right okay and stay there for would it be right that when you were under the walkway you started working through the envelope you would have worked out that some of the white

03:06:36 have worked out that some of the white forms you'd sent to the bridgehead and yellow forms back to the CA C you'd you'd already done no because it was just a massive paper than at the moment it's only when we got to the Ben I think

03:06:48 it's only when we got to the Ben I think the fire fight from Hammersmith as I was writing the water was starting to cascade out the tower right it was moving towards us and then start to relocate me as I was still taking out

03:06:59 relocate me as I was still taking out this G's writing them and I think at this time I got the tabloids put into my on into my back of my gherkin at this time that first G coordinators I lay on the floor remember them doing it I was still just writing then started moving

03:07:11 still just writing then started moving me to the bins where we put a board up and made a desk that and I when I had to grow a little gap in the FSGS I really pay it to the bins five metres to my left right and so

03:07:23 five metres to my left right and so given that you weren't at that stage being able to collate white and yellow forms that you done on the bonnet with what was on the envelope that you received does that it

03:07:34 envelope that you received does that it is it possible that you've then sent duplicate controlled information forms definite right so what we've seen it and we've seen how that explains this yeah but I was I had I was inundated I had to

03:07:48 but I was I had I was inundated I had to capture everything I had signs and there's one every 20 seconds when we got to the bins we recognized that we're starting to get some duplicate information all we had no great ability

03:07:59 information all we had no great ability to update what we're getting so that's when Ben did the one detail and it worked perfectly we still never had the ability all the time to start

03:08:10 ability all the time to start cross-reference what chip had submitted how understand so that answers the question I asked you long ago this morning certainly feels like long ago about the about the sequence of control information forms compared with the

03:08:21 information forms compared with the sequence of the lists in the envelope I think we've got there sir like I say the only in my heart and how I remembered it was the watch manager from control to

03:08:32 was the watch manager from control to see you said very selfish jeez and keep that bit of paper that's why I remembered it however the evidence suggests with the time stamp that it is different now in your new location did you adopt the same system as you had at

03:08:44 you adopt the same system as you had at the on the car bonnet with with runners sending messages into the tower and also radio communication cu7 radio communication Luise at this time yes we carried on that I needed new resources to this time where the firefighters

03:08:56 to this time where the firefighters couldn't stand in front of me it was like he was drunk II he kept walking to one side he one of the initial crews went in and fought the fire and he was he was trying to take the piece of paper off me and falling backwards so I I

03:09:07 off me and falling backwards so I I realized I'd need a new crews because I couldn't trust that this information would get there well he wouldn't hurt himself on group because there was so hell-bent on getting that information to the bridge and it was it was knowledge was tasks running up those four floors

03:09:18 was tasks running up those four floors or to the nez mean dodging debris and it was starting get congested in there so I asked I think I might ask what's manager Brown to find me more whereas I've already warned I didn't want original crews because they had work to do I

03:09:30 crews because they had work to do I wanted to try and utilize what resources but I could without diminishing be a cruise potential be a cruise so at that time I did get more runners and they were

03:09:41 did get more runners and they were queued up on my left on my right and then I had the system left to the towers I was looking at them right to the CEO and they knew where they were going and I didn't mix them up right it was always and sometimes it was a little delayed getting the yellow form

03:09:53 little delayed getting the yellow form to the see you because priority was to get that motion upstairs okay and just in terms of links after you've moved after you'd move to the covered walkway

03:10:04 after you'd move to the covered walkway links between you and the bridge did you know that your forms your white forms were going into the tower and then you do you know how the information on those forms was being communicated to the

03:10:15 forms was being communicated to the bridgehead once inside the tower so I went since they were going up to the bridgehead so when Louise was up there she was my point of contact on on the on the on the form on the envelope obviously I was

03:10:27 form on the envelope obviously I was told to then by Charlie and various runners that the forms were getting stopped in the Mavi yes and that's where I interpreted that we get an age search coordinator set up to actually get on top because they would have been

03:10:38 top because they would have been overwhelmed with these mount forms that were going upstairs and they had no functional no capability of displaying them or processing them they were committing crews so the crew need to be briefed that says where they go in they

03:10:49 briefed that says where they go in they got change control and entra told get them under air and getting up there okay now I'm in your statement on page four in the fourth substantive paragraph you say the pace that the FSGS were coming

03:11:01 say the pace that the FSGS were coming in at was ridiculous and then you go on to say in the next line at one time I had four on the trot waiting to be processed this was when you were on the bins was it so there was a couple wave

03:11:14 bins was it so there was a couple wave so initially the first the first village 14 has five numbers right oh I feel they came in over five minutes I might be wrong again it was it was the whole incident was surreal it felt like it was

03:11:26 incident was surreal it felt like it was five minutes ten minutes I was 14 then there's a little low when I moved to the floor and I could process the envelope details I still receive in FS G's in that time and then it picked up again at

03:11:38 that time and then it picked up again at the bins and I think that was because our control was overwhelmed it FS geez BT operators to fire and rescue police they were taking FSGS and they're getting that information for tile control something's

03:11:49 information for tile control something's coming through in bundles if that makes sense because it was coming in from a tip from a different book a day everybody was overwhelmed I was going to ask you um you say on the trot waiting to be processed

03:12:00 to be processed what was the how do they wait with you so when I say to see you said women say we've got six FS cheese for you brave I know I had a fit ball again I know some

03:12:11 know I had a fit ball again I know some China Graf was written on that right I can't tell you now I can't remember what that china graph was right I don't know if I wrote it or if Charlie or then I know guys wrote it I know there was a

03:12:22 know guys wrote it I know there was a talk to our members here my paper is trying to grab between the boar woods and I can't memorize but I remember just one referring to there is cu7 to say probably we've got six FS geez ready to

03:12:34 probably we've got six FS geez ready to process not go ahead I got number one my confirm until confirm it all those two off go you go number three number four you go so there's literally no delay if I had six runners every two

03:12:46 delay if I had six runners every two effigies I've run out there did you receive pieces of paper from cu7 yeah at this point not knowing where the only one was the envelope I might off again it was information overload not

03:12:58 again it was information overload not like and of course oh now so all the information that came to us from cu7 to you on the on the by now on the under the safety if the covered walkway came by radio did it yes I think see I

03:13:09 by radio did it yes I think see I remember see you seven staff coming down and looking and the effigy coordinator station models coming down and look over my shoulder what was going on again I don't really think I even looked at them I was processing and writing the whole

03:13:21 I was processing and writing the whole fire I literally looked at a pad of paper I remember there was a low I looked up I saw people the windows and eyes I thought can I try and reference where they are and I think I tried one trying to count the floors by they were

03:13:32 trying to count the floors by they were it was an impossible task of the fire was just couldn't reference it so you say this these waiting these waiting FS cheese which were waiting to be processed they came to you on mass and

03:13:45 processed they came to you on mass and just so I've got your evidence right are you saying that they then got recorded immediately on the FIB and were then transferred to the control information forms and processed I don't think so because the only delay with

03:13:56 think so because the only delay with with whitening on the fi coordination board and on control information board would be me just put in full there's a paper lock and when there was little log was I would write I would pull four bits of paper off all been and charlieandsam

03:14:07 of paper off all been and charlieandsam the runners who helped me so I'd have them stacked up left to right and I was right to floor a flat floor flat floor flat floor so then what I had to do is write the flat and floor number in and

03:14:18 write the flat and floor number in and write throw that away to to bridgehead and see you so when you say that they were waiting to be processed they weren't recorded and then rerecord you just written down as fast as you

03:14:29 you just written down as fast as you could as far as as far as i'm yet concerned they were never recorded with us then we process it that that was only on the envelope 0 transmitted to me by hand outrage it from see you said my territory right ok

03:14:40 territory right ok [Music]

03:14:44 now on the top of page five of your statement you say that you had messages

03:14:55 statement you say that you had messages or FSGS that you were writing down that had come in from the public or from people on calls from the tower gonna

03:15:06 people on calls from the tower gonna show you that

03:15:11 yes but you say you say people were calling who were trapped inside the building

03:15:20 building these were relatives or friends I wouldn't speak with the person on the phone directly I asked for the details and write it down on the FSG control information form is that a reference to

03:15:31 information form is that a reference to what used to told us earlier that people were coming to you with their telephones yeah

03:15:36 yeah people will come friends and family we're coming up and saying this is my sister on the phone right what's up or something to that effect and I was conscious not to take the phone off them because as we mentioned earlier wonder

03:15:48 because as we mentioned earlier wonder what's managers already on the phone given that advice and help to a person trapped in the building and I was so overwhelmed I couldn't stop what I was

03:16:01 overwhelmed I couldn't stop what I was doing with the resource so I wanted to capture information I think I firmed up by telling them to go to see you and knock on the door there so we make it made get more information I just need to

03:16:12 made get more information I just need to capture it where I was right it breaks my heart I was bit callous with that but I had had two orphans that things would have evolved understand and you you you

03:16:25 have evolved understand and you you you then go on to say in your statement three lines up from the bottom of that paragraph after a while the police got on top of it and they stopped people coming up to me and I think you've said just a minute ago that the police would

03:16:36 just a minute ago that the police would also help you with what with recording the details of flats and floors is that right

03:16:43 right I mentioned the police first sorry yes where well you said a minute ago and think of it in some way back and you thought the other services were assisting and recording information they were getting from people stuck in the

03:16:54 were getting from people stuck in the play no I said that soon correct me if I'm wrong are they assist in front of a cordon the police would I think Charlie mentioned the police officer came over to us and said that there's we had some

03:17:07 to us and said that there's we had some information about someone trapped I got I think he referred them to the CEO we capture that information maybe but I've but no interaction I had that the police really was in terms of accordant

03:17:19 accordant you know when I say they got on top of here that's bit unfair to the police they were such a massive cordon and residents were coming out of local flats or friends you know so they couldn't police that but when the cordon got

03:17:31 police that but when the cordon got tight those those type of they've not FSGS that an FSG is where it comes from fire control and they're giving them a bus a fire a bus this was just say a walk up my sister's in that flat and I

03:17:44 walk up my sister's in that flat and I had to capture it somehow I captured on the confrontation floor can I ask you to be shown lfp 192 to again page and page 11 this time just to clarify one thing

03:17:58 11 this time just to clarify one thing this is part of the sheaf of documents which we looked at earlier this morning the white yellow and blue forms do you remember receiving a document

03:18:11 do you remember receiving a document like that from from the police I can't no but I know that Charlie had an interaction with a police officer right

03:18:23 interaction with a police officer right I only know that from hearing his evidence I don't recall that but again I was overwhelmed in it was a surreal situation we would have dealt with him we wouldn't have turned him away now

03:18:35 we wouldn't have turned him away now that he or she was it he any information like I said there was no flow of f50s coming in that's how overwhelmed off and child were now what an incredible job they were doing but police were having

03:18:47 they were doing but police were having to take FSG causing us that's a sign of yes what was going on can I ask you to look at the end of the same paragraph in your witness statement now where you say I may be wrong with my

03:18:58 now where you say I may be wrong with my estimation but I feel that I probably did between 60 and 80 of these control information FSG forms now is that in total or is

03:19:09 FSG forms now is that in total or is that just those formers religion ripped them which recorded information coming from callers direct to you again it was a surreal situation I did fourteen on that carp on it

03:19:20 that carp on it I don't know how many in total we're done it felt like I did sixty odd you might be able to elude me to the family were processed but if felt like that I

03:19:31 were processed but if felt like that I understand when I went to see you they said there 156 FSG cause yeah I don't know how accurate that is but that's what it felt like to me it might be an accurate because it was such a surreal situation yes we know I took fourteen on

03:19:43 situation yes we know I took fourteen on the carb on it and that was that was the beginning of the instant I don't want to give you an accurate flat facts that's what it felt like it might it could even

03:19:54 what it felt like it might it could even just be forty thirty but that's just how I feel okay in the next paragraph in your statement you you say that you have had to move

03:20:09 you you say that you have had to move back because of the runoff a firefighting water and you don't say here we put a board onto some bins and this served as our desk I also arranged for some lighting to be set up and I've

03:20:24 for some lighting to be set up and I've given you that as context but I want to walk up one door one what I want to ask you about is two lines down from that and you say I tried getting the forms into some sort of order by putting them

03:20:35 into some sort of order by putting them into different piles and numbering them floors ten ten to twenty and twenty in above

03:20:43 Billy from Hammersmith took this on and made a good order of the piles of control information forms just pausing there was were those the the blue and green copies of controlled information

03:20:57 green copies of controlled information forms that you'd already processed that's right sir yes sir be whites were gone to the bridgehead the yellows are gone to see you these are just the two copies I had left the blue and a green copy and to me saying that I actually

03:21:08 copy and to me saying that I actually made some I was consciously how to get some kind of order because we couldn't cross-reference anything we couldn't cross-reference an update from the sea we couldn't cross reference duplicates coming up from members of public and I

03:21:20 coming up from members of public and I think it was a member of public that come to us that we actually I think I'm sorry that I forget his name and most people been hammersmith us we need and we found it we got what we need to get some structure here and it's it's been

03:21:31 some structure here and it's it's been did that for me because I was still taking FST course I'm following so the need to cross-reference with what is this right was because of updates or duplicates yes and it's just where the

03:21:42 duplicates yes and it's just where the innocent lent itself to us being able to get on top of employment we were always treading water and we just got a heads above the water and we needed to get some quiet assembling some crab order did that work that masses me yeah it was

03:21:55 did that work that masses me yeah it was it was highly effective more effective than my number of one to 14 but it works it worked really well when nature won when people come pass to get some updates we would find out information quite quickly for them although the

03:22:06 quite quickly for them although the information is very limited we didn't have very much about conditions or such like yes now in the same paragraph at the end you say I stayed at this location for some five or six hours with

03:22:17 location for some five or six hours with FSG calls in the first two hours being regular then as time went on they diminished we had some time to form some order of ourselves and the paperwork

03:22:28 what time do you think you would finally relief of this job I seen FSG you actually grateful tower fire doing you're quite right and the job I'm

03:22:39 you're quite right and the job I'm referring to is covering in first Chief forms can you remember it was I made the decision to speak to see you seven it was getting it virtually impossible for

03:22:50 was getting it virtually impossible for firefighters to dangerous for firefighters to get in from entrance I think the main entrance had been relocated around to the play area side of the tower and I said that very

03:23:01 side of the tower and I said that very little information was coming through us now

03:23:03 now couldn't we can we make a direct connection between you and the bridgehead obviously that they were now on top and of what they need to do to see you it was an icy icy VCU there was

03:23:14 see you it was an icy icy VCU there was a Cu for FSG and he puts bear in mind however while they were I think when I took over the FS started doing FSG at the base Oh 213 I think that make I see

03:23:26 the base Oh 213 I think that make I see you went for then he went six so you just let show you how overwhelmed they were worth trying to collate and process information not only FSG makeups messages and deploy resources I just

03:23:39 messages and deploy resources I just want to get an idea of how long you stayed at your location under the sari I walk away doing doing the episode us it was starting to daybreak I think they'd break because they know I was I spoke to

03:23:51 break because they know I was I spoke to see you and they tasked me with the job of going around the local area to see who had left the building would called FSG yes and if there was if there are outside safe so starting to daybreak if

03:24:05 outside safe so starting to daybreak if you'd started this exercise that say 2:00 2:15 and you'd really think that is right that you were there for five or six hours under the walkway doing in

03:24:17 six hours under the walkway doing in first gene the process was working it is right or wrong but the process of working and we're capturing what information we could and make sure nothing has been missed there's much more so I'm sorry to know my question is

03:24:28 more so I'm sorry to know my question is simply a timing question oh sorry - I must asking you whether you think it's right it is actually right that you were at this location gee worked for five or

03:24:39 at this location gee worked for five or six hours given that you started it at around 2:00 or 2:15 that's it could be lesser that it could be three or four hours but it definitely felt like I was just like I say so I don't know how

03:24:50 just like I say so I don't know how reference that I could reference that time at all when you are you all right to go on for 5-7 minutes yes is that okay

03:24:59 okay that's right that's very good of you thank you and you say in your statement to page 5 as you've just told us and this is the third paragraph down when it

03:25:13 this is the third paragraph down when it eventually started to get really quiet I left Billy and crew manager better be there to go and speak to see you seven I told them it was getting harder for my runners to get in and out of the tower

03:25:24 runners to get in and out of the tower because of the falling debris which at the radio channel was now quiet do you know who you spoke to there in cu7 I spoke to there was one or two operators

03:25:35 spoke to there was one or two operators in C u7r I remember seeing the white board with the numbers of people missing adults and children in different colors the charts and they kind of run me through where we were I was just right

03:25:48 through where we were I was just right overwhelmed about how many people we thought would listen at that time you know I knew there was dozens of FS G's but yeah it was quite overwhelming really what they'd been dealing with one

03:25:59 really what they'd been dealing with one that Cu what they was trying to evidence and process okay have you decided at that point that the link could go from c7 to the bridgehead direct myself been

03:26:10 c7 to the bridgehead direct myself been chatting to the co-operative I can't matter who it was it might be in the FST coordinator station manager the camera member bocalee it was someone in control that an IG saves the very little radio

03:26:23 that an IG saves the very little radio chatter traffic now is very little for me to update in terms of it was before 8 a.m. because I was doing the the engine

03:26:34 a.m. because I was doing the the engine control board with my crew manager well a rescue was carried out service prior to 8:00 a.m. right do you remember station manager Dan Egan or a station manager at the very least speaking to

03:26:46 manager at the very least speaking to you when you are at the either at the car bonnet or under the cupboard walkway and telling you that everything will now go through the see you I remember a station manager coming in tapping on astrology and just say this is what

03:26:58 astrology and just say this is what we're doing we get them forms up to the tower and then that from that but okay do you remember being told by a station manager that

03:27:14 being told by a station manager that everything could now go through the sea you know right in what could you elaborate is that all that would be well let me put let me put the evidence to

03:27:25 let me put let me put the evidence to you that's been given by station manager even he said it's for our own references day 15 and pages 132 to 133 I asked him a question what did that what much manner to do in response to your telling

03:27:36 manner to do in response to your telling him that everything would now go through the Cu and his answer was they were really pleased he gave me all the information that he had in his hands we made sure nothing was left behind and they went off they just I'm sure they

03:27:49 they went off they just I'm sure they just went off to get sets does that trigger a relapse but that is very later on in instance I put a setback on my back so I was as I've said in my state I was motivated to get inside that

03:28:01 was motivated to get inside that building so it was still recipes to be carried out right I went round to the play area side of Grand Vitara southwest corner and I was warmed up in the queue

03:28:15 corner and I was warmed up in the queue again to try and get back into the tower to go up to the upper floors and I was again picked out to carry out a functional role and myself and my crew manager were to really Louisa

03:28:26 manager were to really Louisa DeSilva and another watch manager on the edge of twelve walls okay and that was sorry so that was 7:00 a.m. 6:30 7:00

03:28:37 sorry so that was 7:00 a.m. 6:30 7:00 a.m.

03:28:38 a.m. okay at the stage that you were relieved of your rollers FSG the administrator did you hand all the information that

03:28:49 did you hand all the information that you had in your hands to anybody so I went ran to see you to speak to them about obviously it's the radio traffic is getting less and it's getting very hard for my individuals to get inside

03:29:00 hard for my individuals to get inside the tower because if he it's the structure falling down I left then from Hammersmith with the information on the corner that and I

03:29:13 information on the corner that and I went then I was tasked to go and do this this job of finding the who had left the building who had called FSG until 5:00

03:29:24 building who had called FSG until 5:00 we finally defined enemy in the surrounding area called FSG to look across them off when I come back to my little FSG corner by the bins that you've measured gone I went to see you seven to ask where it was because I want

03:29:35 seven to ask where it was because I want to start photographing it to try and capture that information did and it got it I've been assured that it been taken over by the police or by Al FB evidence collected so I see okay right now I'm

03:29:49 collected so I see okay right now I'm going to turn to I've got two or three short topics left to cover which I may be able to cover in the next ten minutes so we can finish by one at all but I'm equally happy for you to take a break

03:30:01 equally happy for you to take a break now mr. Chairman I mean you're I mean the witness's hands down in your hands well it's really a question of whether you'd rather carry on for bit now or have a break I'm happy sir you could carry on yes sir well it won't be for

03:30:12 carry on yes sir well it won't be for more than about ten minutes no they went and at the bottom of page five of your statement you say this I was told by the command unit that a

03:30:25 was told by the command unit that a number of people have self evacuated from the tower and that at the time there was no record of them or what locations they came from I was to go looking for him so my job was to find

03:30:36 looking for him so my job was to find out who was in the building when the fire started and who had left before crews got to them and roughly what time was that do you remember I know a surname control

03:30:52 do you remember I know a surname control around 8 a.m. 7 a.m. 8 a.m. so it's got to be 6 a.m. so I did that for about 4 to 5 minutes then I went straight to put my brief nap rates on warmed up in a

03:31:03 my brief nap rates on warmed up in a queue when I was then detailed to operate the entry travelers ok and to your knowledge had anybody been tasked to try to monitor self

03:31:16 been tasked to try to monitor self evacuation before that I know someone been tasked to go over and try get information over where the leisure centre was and try get that information

03:31:27 centre was and try get that information myself and Charlie but he would detailed to go into last my Road area to try and get that information is that is that your question no um let me try it again do you know

03:31:38 no um let me try it again do you know whether anybody had been given the job earlier in the night of making sure those people who were self evacuating got tallied up with the flats and floors

03:31:50 got tallied up with the flats and floors they've come from I'm not aware of that that would have come through an operation maybe free to see you right okay

03:31:58 okay early int instant people will come in cuz she's become and passed me with with injuries but that stopped pretty soon after the events I told you of the reason why we moved and the cut she

03:32:10 reason why we moved and the cut she started going out towards a play area side Latimer Road was a triage area there so a lot of people started going out

03:32:16 out casualties going out that way do you know whether there was a system for matching up people who had come out of the building by themselves in other words without the support of the of the

03:32:28 words without the support of the of the lfb with the flats or floors they'd come from no I think that's what I was tasked to try and capture some of that information h1i means were you surprised that that system wasn't in operation earlier in the night considering what we

03:32:41 earlier in the night considering what we dealt with and

03:32:45 in an ideal world if that work that would evolve this is something unprecedented CERN I wasn't I wasn't shocked to that the precedent was to get firefighters to cut sheets on those upper floors and lower floors at every

03:32:57 upper floors and lower floors at every floor and that was fundamental we can we can tally that up at a later date and all resources were put in that direction yes and when you went to the triage

03:33:12 yes and when you went to the triage areas to find people did you were you able to record your your findings yes I had a notepad to the a4 notepad and I

03:33:23 had a notepad to the a4 notepad and I did scribble some information down it was quite hard because you the it was part of Moshe charged the areas was going to and a lot of people rightly so we just ask him where their loved ones

03:33:34 we just ask him where their loved ones were there was a couple of situations with quite challenging in terms of people asking where injured witches were and I might have a bit bit information about that so I tried to capture inverse

03:33:45 about that so I tried to capture inverse so I could a lot of people were just asking me about where their loved ones were not necessarily telling me that they'd some people tell me they've activated that they hadn't given FSG so

03:33:57 activated that they hadn't given FSG so for us that we weren't so worried about capturing that information it was people that are called FSG I never left by the road means I don't think I captured any of that I think I've captured a lot of

03:34:08 of that I think I've captured a lot of information people that were in the premises of time that hadn't right do you know whether the information that you captured was recorded at CU sevinor i took the information back to see you

03:34:19 i took the information back to see you sell oh okay I left that I see you seven then I was tasked to go to the ledger center area but that task will be carried out I brought the crew manager back with me to clarify that that was right okay I'm on page 7 of your statement just

03:34:31 I'm on page 7 of your statement just came to a different subject in the middle paragraph you describe what that you took over at the bridgehead once it was on the fourth floor you say well I took over there there were three entry

03:34:42 took over there there were three entry control boards and crews still being committed can you just help me roughly what time that was 6:30 7:00 a.m. right

03:34:55 what time that was 6:30 7:00 a.m. right Louise of my other better assumption of that because I took over from her I was going to ask you two did you take her you to go from yeah I believe it's Louisa that I poked upon yes and who else was at the bridgehead of that stage

03:35:07 else was at the bridgehead of that stage running it bright frying O'Keeffe Rosie I believe he was there Brian's had like a station a few stations open for me so I do recognise him but I no reason walks I'm quite on a daily basis we we attend

03:35:19 I'm quite on a daily basis we we attend the same instances together right so I'd recognize her more okay now I I could have a bad premise to you did this in fact I think you look at the paragraph before was at the time when the

03:35:31 before was at the time when the bridgehead had moved from the fourth floor down to the lobby in fact the bridgehead was in the lobby not on the fourth floor at least at this stage say I may have confused you with my Fuhrer question I'm sorry about that

03:35:43 my Fuhrer question I'm sorry about that but did you it was the bridgehead on the fourth floor when you took over on the ground floor when you took over yes so in the process of stopping my FSG I had

03:35:54 in the process of stopping my FSG I had a little walk around right the five rounds my feet might be a set got taken so I went stole someone else's because I want to wear right I found that inside the tower right and

03:36:06 I found that inside the tower right and then I come back outside the tower and at that time it was on the who is in the lobby I was in OP seat asked to go back in and do do the engine control board so

03:36:18 in and do do the engine control board so it was in the lobby what I'd to finish doing my and I believe I remember the conditions deteriorate or than the fourth corner had to be push the lobby when I went into the lobby you could it

03:36:29 when I went into the lobby you could it was very hard to breathe and see because the smoke was so bad and they're in the process of smashing the windows and Bobby she try get some cross-ventilation whereabouts in the lobby worthy entry control balls situated at that stage

03:36:41 control balls situated at that stage when you took over the there are 30 business days they've got to the mezzanine did you notice any writing on the green wall at the foot of the stairs when you notice density and reference PA crews have been deployed to be air crews

03:36:53 crews have been deployed to be air crews are going up and work to rescue people were breaking so many policies and procedures and rightly so because we've never got to them firefighters are taking their masks off and and carrying out rescues and and credit to them for

03:37:04 out rescues and and credit to them for doing that when they come back down there well if you put in their tallies at the board they did want to speak to us they were exhausted they can barely stand people coming down with no air left in their cylinders so as they

03:37:15 left in their cylinders so as they pulled the tallies off we need some kind of control to know who they were so far cuts were stopped the masks and their name across and then so we had their tallies in the board and I did this later on as well and we'd have them

03:37:27 later on as well and we'd have them written on the wall as well Red Cross their name off the wall so we double checked and double confirms that the right people were coming out and they had their rights had is there were no fit state to have much of a conversation with us they had the debrief research

03:37:39 with us they had the debrief research coordinator so we want to make as easy as possible to that you know can I ask you to them just to look at a photograph

03:37:51 which is a meaty triple zero one five eight one six

03:38:02 do you recognize that writing on that wall

03:38:06 wall I recognized to make very familiar familiar to that because is this at the father's this here the mezzanine at bottom the stairs so I was gonna ask you

03:38:18 it's not a good well it's a green wall and there is some evidence so far that it was at the foot of the stairs on the ground floor that looked familiar

03:38:32 ground floor that looked familiar because when I was doing edge control it around 8 a.m. we were still doing the same principle we were having the firefighters names written up and then we were crossing us or they coming back out so there's any entries for 8 a.m.

03:38:45 out so there's any entries for 8 a.m. yes I'm going to show you those that's what I wanted to ask you if you look at the grid on the left-hand side of the picture you can see in the third column from the left time starting a 7 s DBA

03:38:59 what looks like dark dead furred and then it runs down the column from 7 a.m. a top to 8:30 at the bottom I think one

03:39:12 a top to 8:30 at the bottom I think one what you told us you were there running the entry control on the ground floor in the lobby between those times do you remember that information being put up

03:39:25 remember that information being put up on the wall at that time Stephanie information we put up on the wall to that effect as a firefighter there crossing it off yeah do you know who that do you know who that was Oh again is this 6005 isis

03:39:39 that was Oh again is this 6005 isis brigade they weren't david station so I knew I mean were from all over London over I wouldn't recognize me pilot to them now did you have any involvement in the

03:39:47 the Taney the information or recording the information we see in that grid no that was just an extra span of control that we put in place because the firefighters are going up and firefighters getting a

03:39:58 are going up and firefighters getting a brief in the lobby from the research coordinator about where to go over to get rescues when they come to myself and then my crew manager we had three boards between us for maybe 30 firefighters on and the two of us

03:40:10 30 firefighters on and the two of us were running that that's thus under-resourced and all my brief wasn't doing we've got no water past the 11th floor

03:40:17 floor we've got no comms past the 11th floor the term entry drops out on the ninth floor if you have a fire five minutes you're trapped out there you're on your own and all they were doing was noclip instead they just wanted to go they don't want to chat to maybe just wanted

03:40:28 don't want to chat to maybe just wanted to go out that's a testament to their bravery and their courage sure now you say as you just said and it's in your statement in the same paragraph three lines up from the bottom the coms weren't working past the 11th floor

03:40:40 weren't working past the 11th floor either we were still committing teams of three do you know why comms weren't working past the 11th floor no I mean a lot comes I was a fire near the charge

03:40:55 lot comes I was a fire near the charge of the day and I heard about to see a shut-in lift in Battersea on the handheld radio I can be in a tower block in the lobby and so my firefighters could be on the 16th 18th 20th floor and

03:41:07 could be on the 16th 18th 20th floor and I have to get him to speak to my driver who's outside and relay the message to me because it just won't work a lot of the weather conditions interfere in it but there so I don't know I'm not

03:41:18 but there so I don't know I'm not regular engineer but it happens how long during the night work comms not working past the 11th floor for he was a

03:41:30 working past the 11th floor for he was a second sir yeah for how long during the night where communications not working beyond the 11th floor Louisa will be the expert in that because she was ok but for me when I took over I was I felt and I think I

03:41:43 took over I was I felt and I think I might have said here my stay and I felt quite stressed and anxious for their safety because I had no control over if anything went wrong for them and I think the senior officer said to me we've nearly lost one firefighter I don't lose anybody

03:41:54 anybody and I've secret bat an arrow into I just realized

03:41:57 realized they're Professional Firefighters thickener they got there and look after each other right okay mr. Gerron is past one o'clock yes but I do have one more question to ask only one well well one

03:42:10 question to ask only one well well one yes I think you should ask one thank you good you know you can deal with another question best thank you in your second witness statement I can

03:42:21 in your second witness statement I can just ask you to look at it you say in the on the first page in the fourth paragraph that you this is six lines down in the lobby on the fourth floor

03:42:34 down in the lobby on the fourth floor this is once you've moved the bridge head to the fourth floor there was a lot of wall space so I decided to write the plan on this area can I just show you that so that's wasn't the question

03:42:46 that so that's wasn't the question it's a meaty triple zero one five eight one three

03:42:58 he was this the plan you created on the left so yes on the left okay I see can you help us with what's on the right no

03:43:10 you help us with what's on the right no so I didn't enter control in the lobby and then the fourth floor cleared and it was decided that we'd stop at be a cruise put them out and relocate to the bridge head to the fourth floor

03:43:22 bridge head to the fourth floor so we relocated to the fourth floor at this time it was maybe eight thirty in the morning 8:30 in the morning so we relocate the bridge hit the fourth floor and then I was relieved my engine

03:43:34 floor and then I was relieved my engine control duties along with Ben Macklin are my three manager Lambeth and I was tasked by station manager to draw up a quick grid so I went into one of the flats I found a pen and a straightedge

03:43:46 flats I found a pen and a straightedge and I start to draw in this grid system I was told it was six flats peripheral 24 floors so I did that I wrote the numbers I've done those crosses no I

03:43:59 numbers I've done those crosses no I don't know who did the crosses but I did the numbers and it was a way for us to cross off I believe I left with all this was then worked through to see what flats were clear what cash tears or

03:44:12 flats were clear what cash tears or victims we had no other flats

03:44:18 the details on the rights they weren't there when I left they weren't there were you know not more where officer no to be fed they might have to be fair because I found it very hard right on

03:44:30 because I found it very hard right on his fire door so maybe they might not because the smoke is only roof level on around there so I could have and that's

03:44:41 around there so I could have and that's that's been cleaned up maybe I didn't write on the wall because if it's dirty and someone's cleaned that I don't know I don't remember that information on the right hand side it looks like they smoke the suits been cleared right okay I may

03:44:52 the suits been cleared right okay I may have to come back to you with that mr. Chairman I noticed the time I haven't advanced search and has created a number of further questions you know should just ask I'm sorry about that you know that's funny Claire is all

03:45:03 you know that's funny Claire is all about young Chloe yes yes I just think I do have to follow that up all right so I'm not able to release the witness I'm afraid at the moment no answer if we have a break now and give you the chance

03:45:14 have a break now and give you the chance to reconsider any other questions yes I think you said that although I'm sure you would have liked to have finished this morning we're gonna have a break now so you can get some lunch

03:45:26 now so you can get some lunch and there'll be a few questions when you get back I hope not too many will come back at em pass - that's right thank you so Han don't discuss our evidence over the break thank you

03:45:44 thank you 10 pots to please

03:45:55 you