London Fire Brigade firefighter gives evidence about FSG call handling on Command Unit 7, information management challenges, and communication breakdowns between control room and incident ground during the Grenfell Tower fire.
00:00:01 [Music]
00:00:13 right the twickum yes thank you ready to carry on yeah very good thank you absolutely thank you mr. chairman Thank You mr. Peckham for coming back just before we well as we broke for
00:00:24 just before we well as we broke for lunch the Chairman asked I think for some better indication of the internal layout of a command unit the lfb have been kind enough to send us some photographs yeah now these are not in
00:00:36 photographs yeah now these are not in official disclosure so I'm showing these to you for the first time and I think seeing them for the first time say let's see how we go but can I just um ask the
00:00:48 see how we go but can I just um ask the documents directly to display those and perhaps as we display them we can you can talk us through these this is CSU one so not in not I think say what do we
00:01:03 one so not in not I think say what do we see there it's not a lot to see they're really at the front of the as you look at the two white bulbs that's the very front of the truck right in the steps out are they in the door yeah door to
00:01:14 out are they in the door yeah door to your left right and there are some smaller seats that fold down and then a little bench to your right they're big bits of equipment stored
00:01:27 they're big bits of equipment stored under those front seats right such like a camera that doesn't work we're doing under there but and right mesh nodes on the left with don't work would have been
00:01:39 the left with don't work would have been there where's the point out the knot like that work and they've been operational right as which is that when we when you points out the minute maybe maybe I didn't picture you might get a better view of okay you just look at
00:01:51 better view of okay you just look at another picture okay the other one that's it right I see so that's the door on the right
00:02:02 on the right yeah so that were sorry on our machine they will be on the shelf on the right they would have been they've been taken off of service right and what are those gray boxes that we can see on the shelf
00:02:14 gray boxes that we can see on the shelf they look like charges for batteries right can you tell us where the radio is on this it is it in this picture you it's just out of sight so you see the chair yes in four it's
00:02:27 so you see the chair yes in four it's it's just in front of that between so you've got a chair on the right and you can you know that's opposite that table it's behind the screen actually I thought there is any other yeah so
00:02:41 thought there is any other yeah so though you've got two chairs you can't quite see the one on the left but they've basically they're posing chairs and at the very back in the middle would be a bank of three radios okay okay and
00:02:52 be a bank of three radios okay okay and what is the black piece of equipment with the lights on it to the right of the chair that that is the computer system of the row back those batteries
00:03:04 system of the row back those batteries right and everything that charge okay is that a screen but you're showing screen saver what would normally be shown on that screen at an incident it depends
00:03:16 that screen at an incident it depends what's called for but the map the map or the hierarchy or we could bring up emails
00:03:26 images captured from the scene we could upload right you say emails did you add an incident would you normally have access to him would you be able to send emails you can get information by are
00:03:38 emails you can get information by are you merrier right what what what network would you use if you were if you were at an incident to send emails what everyone's available
00:03:50 send emails what everyone's available social normally would be we've got a 3G signal if we can get one right so we don't choose it the machine will pick the best signal again and we see if
00:04:05 the best signal again and we see if we've got a connection or not right we can set up from the screen right also we've got a mass that we've caught up to gain the best connection possible right can I just ask you something yes um just
00:04:18 can I just ask you something yes um just occurred to me um if you could send emails it in in the ordinary course using 3G from a command unit could you send emails to people's mobile phones
00:04:30 I guess you could yeah you know whether there was anything to stop you or anybody else on either command unit sending FSG information from the computer via email to anybody at the
00:04:43 computer via email to anybody at the bridgeheads mobile I'm not aware of how strong the signal was right it's not something that I mean these machines are
00:04:56 something that I mean these machines are quite getting quite old quite dated now so they can be quite hit and miss right whether we get we get a signal or not if I'm honest and I mean now they'll
00:05:08 I'm honest and I mean now they'll getting towards the end of their life ity is a computer Y so we don't always get a signal Ryan so you don't always
00:05:19 get a signal Ryan so you don't always get signal what would that depend on depend on the multitude of things the IIT itself that the coverage the area do
00:05:34 IIT itself that the coverage the area do you know whether do you know yourself whether anybody on the night in either CU 8 or c u7 tried to use that computer to send emails of FSG information to
00:05:45 to send emails of FSG information to anybody on the fire grounds Mobile's no it's not something that I would imagine I think I've ever heard of anyone doing either to be honest it's not it's not
00:05:57 either to be honest it's not it's not it's not a system that will that we would use isn't it's not reliable enough I don't think you don't know who you sending it to I don't know they would get numbers wherever that who's got the phone with them whether the visit
00:06:09 phone with them whether the visit whether it could visibly get their phone out and it up right it's not it's not a line of communication of none is 20 years okay continuing with the equipment
00:06:21 years okay continuing with the equipment in the see you we've got those gray items lying on the shelf there what's above them on the right there
00:06:32 the plug sockets those are the phone socket below below the plug so picture me know we've got on the wall above those three gray those three great things what are the are there plugs that
00:06:43 things what are the are there plugs that plugs yeah yes and below those plugs won't see the plugs what's below the clothes Oh Mike but they look like the mesh narrative they're not on tell you here probably right that's not doesn't
00:06:56 here probably right that's not doesn't resemble they might be the the updated charges I'm assuming this was taken recently yeah yeah okay over in the
00:07:09 recently yeah yeah okay over in the corner yeah then between what between the black equipment of there and the red things what is that sorry what I'm looking at in the corner yep to the
00:07:21 looking at in the corner yep to the right of the deep black equipment yeah electronic equipment what's there what do we see there okay that that's the switches for the lights air conditioning
00:07:33 switches for the lights air conditioning raising and lowering the mast and above that you've got a control for the top matrix which is like an LED display outside and what's the red object that's
00:07:47 outside and what's the red object that's carrier for for loading up or for what's the word
00:07:55 the word for stowing nominal roll balls so when
00:08:00 machines and officers book in that's where we would keep their nominal roll balls I see okay and below the computer screen we've got what looks like a scanner is that right a scanner and a printer a printer okay
00:08:13 a scanner and a printer a printer okay and what's to the left behind the big screen there another door yes and then behind that is a chair that would mirror the chair on the right right do we see
00:08:25 the chair on the right right do we see where than the two mobiles that you describe for us earlier a situation right they would be directly so that big TV screen is mounted on like her bald
00:08:36 TV screen is mounted on like her bald you like they will be just on the back side of that board at the very end of the TV right okay is there anything else
00:08:47 the TV right okay is there anything else in that photograph that you think you should point out not in that in that photo now that's returned can we have the next photo please
00:09:01 very go see a white board there emerging on the left yeah so this this is a slightly different layout I don't see
00:09:12 slightly different layout I don't see you this is see you once you won okay so so that's bets updated from the night Grenfell there's been some changes on
00:09:23 Grenfell there's been some changes on that right as I so the tough books missionary sex would be on the right hand side along there with together with some different charging points for
00:09:34 some different charging points for radios etc but other than that we there would be white bigger white balls on the
00:09:47 would be white bigger white balls on the left okay just just looking at that picture then doing the best you can with any differences between c u8 + cu cu 1 where do you think you were working directly off to see it will chair on the
00:09:59 directly off to see it will chair on the right directly opposite the chair right there k so you wouldn't have been out you just to be able to see me if you like it
00:10:06 like it behind the screen to the left so you came in and came by that emergency door and I see so you set yourself down that went straight in and the masu you can
00:10:18 went straight in and the masu you can get very busy it's not very big it fills up very quickly so you went out when when we would turn up we would look unless we were directed otherwise you'd look for a familiar face so I'm off
00:10:29 look for a familiar face so I'm off familiar face and instantly it was been sitting in the chair chair right I'll share on the right yeah which is generally the radio operators chair on where you look in it on most instance
00:10:42 where you look in it on most instance you would do both initially and and I and
00:10:45 and I can't remember the conversation I had but obviously he was extremely busy so that's where I saw initially opposite him okay started assistant so did you
00:10:57 him okay started assistant so did you know is there anything between the two chairs would obstruct your there are some smaller - smaller screens right right and what's what are they used for [Music]
00:11:09 [Music] you can stand in front of that screen and an input but it's not always practical so you can import it from if you're doing sometimes you might be doing one two three jobs at a time you
00:11:21 doing one two three jobs at a time you might be in radio and update in CSS so you would do that from the screen around the back okay when you were on see you age was the CSS working do you remember I believe it was working I didn't I
00:11:34 I believe it was working I didn't I didn't get a chance to look at it for any length of time okay so we've got a white wall on the left there can we have another look at the see if we could see
00:11:45 another look at the see if we could see the other end of the see you
00:11:54 so they could still see the whiteboard on the left do you remember whether that whiteboard was being written on if that's the same position of a white border so you once make a nice is it up
00:12:08 border so you once make a nice is it up there but it's a lot different for an hour only one so the white boards on the Left were bigger there's two of them right there's only one there in the middle so they're not what's happenin
00:12:20 middle so they're not what's happenin there on that left-hand wall that buffer that soft cushion yes wouldn't isn't there and there'll be two large generally two large white bolts right
00:12:32 generally two large white bolts right okay can we have a picture of the other end if it exists
00:12:42 ah this is desk yeah right those are the two screens you were referring tears and the chairs one of which looks new okay and on the right there what do we
00:12:54 okay and on the right there what do we see those are weak memory cards etc to load images up camera this card's okay
00:13:06 load images up camera this card's okay like a card reader sorry that's right we're looking for okay and let's see if there's anything else we got see it right I don't think we have any pictures
00:13:21 right I don't think we have any pictures of the other end of the see you mr. chairman admits there is no I'm told there is until to keep scrolling down no no talk
00:13:34 there's that miss we looked at earlier that is the back end as it were little is that the front end of the back end of the see you that's the front end is the front end and how different is that from
00:13:48 front end and how different is that from cu8 do you remember I'm imagining pretty similar right okay so how many white boards were there in total on cu8 four
00:14:01 boards were there in total on cu8 four so two of them well there's no large ones on the right and those two okay a bit with that okay now when you were sitting at the desk you've just shown yeah my reference to this picture did
00:14:13 yeah my reference to this picture did you have a clear view of any of those white boards no far too busy to be busy how many people know how many people do you think on average roughly we're in
00:14:24 you think on average roughly we're in the see you apart from you and Dan Merrick for the period you were in it see you eight guesstimate six right figure right well they all what were
00:14:36 figure right well they all what were they all doing I mean exactly what they were doing I don't know but obviously you know this is a an incident like we've never seen before so obviously
00:14:49 we've never seen before so obviously trying to formulate the planning gather information I would imagine because it must have still be it was coming in at a rate at that point okay now let's just
00:15:00 rate at that point okay now let's just pick up the spread I just say thank you to the elect be providing those photographs so quickly yes it certainly helped me to understand what come on you it looks like thank you yes certainly
00:15:12 it looks like thank you yes certainly yes they do it does say CSU one on there but I'm not convinced that is that might be a bit of a miss misleading this might be one of the C users currently being
00:15:23 be one of the C users currently being refitted I can't say that for sure it tells me enough about yeah but if there's some there that looks new and slightly different you're not we're not speak about sitting behind yeah that's the same like
00:15:35 behind yeah that's the same like I'm trying to work out where the table was now yeah I'm seen thank you but it doesn't take many people to clutter clutter your view you know goes to three three or four people on their own you're not gonna be able to see access to the
00:15:48 not gonna be able to see access to the boards etc no do you remember any discussion about what was going on and when you arrived at cu8 none do you
00:16:02 when you arrived at cu8 none do you remember any discussion about the advice that was being given by control to residents who were calling no discussion
00:16:17 Norman Harrison recalls in his witness statement that when he went to see you ate first he remembers that he said that he thought the stay-put advice was wrong
00:16:29 he thought the stay-put advice was wrong do you remember that I I don't remember
00:16:40 do you remember that I I don't remember him saying it do you remember a discussion between normal Harrison and Dan Egan
00:16:48 Dan Egan Colin do you anybody else about the stay-put advice waltz don't see you I yes not not then no do you remember a discussion when you got to see you seven about that subject
00:17:00 about that subject I remember if we're gonna get on to what once I was off cui and n to some degrees C you sorry on cu7 ends at the moment
00:17:11 C you sorry on cu7 ends at the moment whilst on cui I was pretty task-focused so a lot of these lot of these perceptions are of overhearing but certainly the staple policy was was
00:17:25 certainly the staple policy was was talked about but I can't give you any context or who said it to her but it was you know it was something that was I think certainly on people's minds do you
00:17:37 think certainly on people's minds do you remember whether there was any discussion about whether it was possible to use emergency air supply equipment to assist people coming out of the building
00:17:48 assist people coming out of the building emergency air supply yes second set back ok second set bags no I don't recollect that ok discussion did
00:17:59 don't recollect that ok discussion did you yourself have any conversations with anyone in the control room from cu8 No
00:18:13 that we've got the various messages coming in to see you ate and I just wonder whether you can recall any let me
00:18:25 wonder whether you can recall any let me try one with you and then you can work around that if you gave please to the ORR page 74 which is 73 internally
00:18:40 at 143 13 you can see that cro Darby can contact cu8 and passes the following information about fire survival calls they've recently received and then
00:18:53 they've recently received and then there's a list of seven of them
00:19:00 looking down the lists the floor numbers ten and twenty three twelve fourteen seventeen twelve and eighteen in some cases flat numbers are given do you recall receiving a group of
00:19:14 do you recall receiving a group of faster Bible calls from Sharon Davi and the in the control room you didn't speak to the control room at all I spoke to control and took down information that
00:19:29 control and took down information that that's that's what I believe I did okay at that point but I can't remember any specifics right I asked you whether you had any conversations with anyone in the control room from cu8 and you said no I
00:19:41 control room from cu8 and you said no I thought that was in relation to the second setback oh I see okay so let's go back there just take a step back okay do you recall having any conversations with anyone in control about fire survival guidance only taking details is it okay
00:19:55 guidance only taking details is it okay and do you remember tick being given a massive fire survival guidance details in one chunk I thank recollect it was constant right
00:20:08 I thank recollect it was constant right now if it was in a chunk there would have been the one straight after so there was certainly my recollection of that they certainly didn't come in in singles okay that I think that that
00:20:20 singles okay that I think that that there were time great did come any more than one if you go on in the the to the
00:20:31 than one if you go on in the the to the next page
00:20:33 next page you can see that at 144 19
00:20:42 you see that it says see you a contact brigade control to confirm the latest
00:20:55 brigade control to confirm the latest FSG calls FSG calls - and then this okay just to confirm that's the tenth floor
00:21:07 just to confirm that's the tenth floor 23rd floor 12th floor 14th floor on the 17th floor the only flat numbers you've given me are on the 17th floor is 142 and that's five people and the 12th
00:21:22 and that's five people and the 12th floor is one it is 95 no further information than that apart from heavy smoke logging over does that trigger a recollection in your mind as to whether that might have been you passing that
00:21:34 that might have been you passing that message to brigade control
00:21:41 no no I can't say for sure it may well have been me but it doesn't I it's something I I I was doing for up till
00:21:54 something I I I was doing for up till sunrise so that that particular response dog doesn't for sure ringing any bells it might have been me but I can't honestly be saw say it was right if you
00:22:09 honestly be saw say it was right if you go to page 79 78 internally and look at timestamp at 1:40 706
00:22:25 see you eight sends a radio message to brigade control requesting the number of people in the flats that were referenced in the previous FST message FSG call three and ask the control repeat the FSG
00:22:36 three and ask the control repeat the FSG ready a message again do you remember sending that message to brigade control asking them to repeat the message no again am i well have done
00:22:48 the message no again am i well have done but it's not something I will then they come back a minute seven seconds let me sorry seven seconds later they 147 13 repeating the message you know you don't
00:22:59 repeating the message you know you don't remember this exchange probably not not okay then at the bottom of the same page 147 44 om Norman ring see you a torn-up
00:23:11 147 44 om Norman ring see you a torn-up passes over a request for the flats below to be checked and there's a list of flats to be checked five nine five in
00:23:23 of flats to be checked five nine five in all doot-doot does that trigger a recollection whether that might have been you received that message again it could have been but it's not it's not
00:23:34 could have been but it's not it's not something I can recall right
00:23:45 if you look at once but to page 81 internally so if they j2t of the documents that you can see that at one fifty forty nine compare control of
00:23:58 fifty forty nine compare control of operator Adams that's give or Madam's telephones the see you believe to be cu8 and watch manager merrick answers the phone and it says that she relays the
00:24:09 phone and it says that she relays the following FSG call that information flat 133 416 a flat 180 220 first floor and then it says see request an idea of priority from control who confirm the
00:24:21 priority from control who confirm the following and there are some details
00:24:25 do you remember whether you will watch manager merrick requested i an idea of priority from control no don't believe
00:24:39 priority from control no don't believe it was me passed paper watch manage america you were within earshot of watch manage america think at this point yeah okay could you hear what he was saying have been concentrating on my rules so i
00:24:54 have been concentrating on my rules so i wouldn't have been even though we've been very close so i as no well would would have been recollected exactly what his conversation was okay they were just
00:25:05 his conversation was okay they were just try this last one on you he goes on to say see you ask if controlled can prioritize calls based on smoke density going forward can you help with that whether that was you or whether that wasn't
00:25:16 you or whether that wasn't that wasn't you do you remember having a discussion with with Dan Merrick about prioritization of FSG calls based on smoke density no no okay
00:25:35 but you when you are sitting at the desk and receiving messages from the control room
00:25:44 room were you on the just go back though we've seen the pictures were you using the mobile again as I said earlier I really can't remember right it was a very it seemed a very
00:25:56 right it was a very it seemed a very short time on that see you seven okay no I have a coupon right okay it didn't appear was on there very long I could be mistaken but it didn't seem like I was on there for very long right
00:26:08 on there for very long right is it right that if you use a radio any wonder you can speak at once and then you have to use the formal language yeah but there's a protocol to yeah do you
00:26:20 but there's a protocol to yeah do you know you were using that radio protocol while on see like don't remember how as I stated I don't remember how I communicate with control whether I had the phone or the radio and right now in
00:26:35 the phone or the radio and right now in your
00:26:49 in your statement you you say you have you are taking calls do you remember how you were recording these calls I would
00:27:03 you were recording these calls I would have written down somewhere would have normally been on a control information form right and available so that would
00:27:15 form right and available so that would be my default right do you have any specific recollection of actually doing that no do you have any specific recollection that's giving anything to runners to send to the back I wouldn't
00:27:27 runners to send to the back I wouldn't have give anything to run it directly now who would have taken the information from you and taking it to the fire ground you know
00:27:35 on cu7 on cu8 I saw and so you I can't remember I mean there were a lot of people around me so it would have been handed over and they don't handed it to
00:27:47 handed over and they don't handed it to someone right do you remember having any radio contact from cu8 with anybody on the incident ground either at the bridgehead or outside in the tower do you remember
00:28:00 outside in the tower do you remember that you didn't or you defied him over one way or the other I wasn't aware of any okay
00:28:05 any okay and that's not to say I wasn't going on but I wasn't aware and you didn't do any no now you then say Alfred on page three of your statement after only around 10
00:28:16 of your statement after only around 10 minutes it was decided that our command unit C of seven would be utilized as the centum for FSG calls and messages I then went back to see you seven to ten Mary watch manager group manager Tom Goodell
00:28:29 watch manager group manager Tom Goodell watch manager Norman Harrison and I believe station manager Dan Egan yes did you all go together as a group
00:28:39 pretty much yes right does that does that mean that you remember Daniel even being with you on see you remembering being on now or remembering being now and see you seven okay okay who decided
00:28:55 and see you seven okay okay who decided that you should all decamp to see you seven I don't know who made the decision but I believe it was the group manager Goodall that actually said right we're
00:29:07 Goodall that actually said right we're going to use cu7 as right I thought if he made the decision but he communicated it okay I believe you
00:29:15 you all right and it was G remember whether there was a reason why you couldn't continue to manage FS Jesus from cu8 why you had to go to see you seven well we
00:29:27 you had to go to see you seven well we would always use even for something a smaller
00:29:33 smaller tropic this we would always use a dedicated FSG truck as soon as practicable so it was always be our default to have a separate FSG truck to
00:29:44 default to have a separate FSG truck to solely deal with FSG right so that the other unit could be used to command and control etc given that all the FSC information was already coming in at volume into cu8 why not just stick with
00:29:57 volume into cu8 why not just stick with cu8 as the dedicated FSG vehicle wasn't my decision no do you know do you know why they that not that move was necessitated no okay
00:30:08 not that move was necessitated no okay how long did it take you to transfer over to see you seven
00:30:17 would say from lead from leaving the tribal lesson less than five minutes right given that it was going to take time to move from cu8 to CU 7 and given
00:30:28 time to move from cu8 to CU 7 and given the volume as you've just described it FSG information coming in from control room was there did anybody think that there was a risk that FSG information would get missed during the transfer
00:30:41 it's not a conversation or a discussion that I was privy to [Music]
00:30:51 [Music] I'm not what I'm unclear of is when we when we swapped over whether for that five minutes where anyone remained and I would imagine they would have done
00:31:03 would imagine they would have done remained on the radio until I sent the message that now charlie only for seven of his FSG vehicle I'll be very surprised if someone didn't you know
00:31:18 surprised if someone didn't you know remain on the radio taking callers until that point it would be unthinkable really so that we wouldn't have all just butt up and left so I know in my statement I mentioned Dan Merrick they
00:31:31 statement I mentioned Dan Merrick they were all right they were all on there from the start but it may be but that the American one other may obtain in the five minutes after I'd sell or called and radio to control that we were now at
00:31:45 and radio to control that we were now at farce of all the guidance and how well what happened to all the information that you had collected
00:31:56 information that you had collected whilst on cu8 it was brought down to see you certainly as I understand it how was that done I don't know do people physically bring the whiteboards or did they take photographs of the whiteboards and go to see you
00:32:08 of the whiteboards and go to see you seven with the photographs okay do you remember Dan Egan telling you to transcribe all the information that you had got so far on the whiteboards and
00:32:21 had got so far on the whiteboards and take them to see you seven now on page three two-thirds of the way down you say
00:32:34 three two-thirds of the way down you say all of us were on see you seven but I'm not entirely sure if we all attended at the same time from moving to see you seven i sat in the radio operators chair just pausing there that that's is that
00:32:46 just pausing there that that's is that the main one we saw yet in the picture on the right yes okay control had been informed that we were now of the FSG call unit and from this time i was inundated with calls with very little breaks between them yes now
00:32:59 very little breaks between them yes now control have been informed who say who informed control that you and I are the FSG call you argue you did how did you do that by radio all right right which
00:33:11 do that by radio all right right which channel did you use to remember I believe it was three but honestly recollects
00:33:19 come in look at these short incident blog please and go to page 22
00:33:38 and a half way down that page at the time mark 22333 you could see s ad who is Sharon Darby and control-room learnis is key c7 run all FSG calls via Cu
00:33:51 is key c7 run all FSG calls via Cu Center
00:33:55 what does that mark there tell us about your communication with the control room about cu7 now handling adversities I've
00:34:09 about cu7 now handling adversities I've never seen those before what that would say to me that they were now aware and they've been informed that cu7 was nary office he tried that be as
00:34:20 cu7 was nary office he tried that be as a result of your discussion with the controller do you think yes okay and the timestamp of 22333 is that that roughly about right given how long you spent
00:34:31 about right given how long you spent getting to the control unit agent yeah time is a very much a blur I'm afraid that would it doesn't seem unreasonable amount of time okay
00:34:47 do you know whether any calls continue to be passed to the incident command pump g27 one after that message have been sent no do you know whether any
00:35:00 been sent no do you know whether any messages continued to be sent by the control room to see to see you eight after that message had been sent for the first G messages I'm not aware but I
00:35:12 first G messages I'm not aware but I don't see why they would right are you able to help us from your own regulation of why we look a little bit further down
00:35:26 of why we look a little bit further down the page the short incident log continues to record FSG data going to see you eight if you look for example at the time marked 250
00:35:38 look for example at the time marked 250 up to 25 32 do you know why the a short incident log continues to record message
00:35:49 incident log continues to record message is going to see you 8 I don't know why why that would happen i was i was inundated with non-stop calls might
00:36:02 inundated with non-stop calls might maybe it was an overload and they needed to get a priority but i have no clue they were clearly told from the log that we were now FSG trucks i don't know why
00:36:14 we were now FSG trucks i don't know why that would be okay but to be 30 you Joe Smith who was the som on duty from about to 15 or so on that night told us in
00:36:26 to 15 or so on that night told us in evidence of 10 days or so ago that in fact Sharon Davi or whoever was writing the messages was actually sending them to see you seven and not see you 8 but just to be clear with you you're not
00:36:37 just to be clear with you you're not aware are you of any messages as it were leaking out and going to see you 8 after the message that all that first G calls should come too I mean although I wouldn't have heard them but I didn't get any information that
00:36:48 but I didn't get any information that that had happened since or at the time okay now if we can put that away go back to page three of your statement you say
00:37:01 to page three of your statement you say six lines up from the bottom of the page after talking about the radio as you say I recall we did attempt to use this facility on channel 2 yeah
00:37:12 facility on channel 2 yeah during the ground floor tower fire but were unable to do so what channel were you using to receive message once you
00:37:26 you using to receive message once you got to see you seven to receive messages from the control room yeah I believe it was three right up we actually recall for sure no you said three and relationship I'll see you eight but see you seven you think it was
00:37:37 eight but see you seven you think it was three do you I believe so yeah okay if you look just back at the short incident log
00:37:49 and ignoring Alistar stick with that page the moment ignoring the fact that it says see you at 8:00 you can see that the radio channel looks
00:38:02 you can see that the radio channel looks like RT for okay in each case do you remember using RT for it might have been for it right you know yeah okay it was
00:38:17 for it right you know yeah okay it was certainly the only line of communication being used for s FG anyway right do now did you know that policy 719 refers to the possibility of using what
00:38:30 refers to the possibility of using what I've called flan ops if there are a large number of FSG calls yeah did you use flops no okay did you have
00:38:44 did you use flops no okay did you have radio communications with someone on the fire ground it split where you put two whom you passed FSG information you were getting from the control room me
00:38:56 getting from the control room me personally yes no you didn't know did any but did you do you know whether anybody else on cu7 did there was vast
00:39:09 anybody else on cu7 did there was vast amounts of radio traffic going backwards and forwards yes yes do do you know from your own knowledge whether anybody else
00:39:20 your own knowledge whether anybody else on cu7 had radio contact with anybody on the incident ground our police I guess who was that I believe Dan Egan [Music]
00:39:32 [Music] anybody else possibly Tom good all right there's Tom Goodell on cu7 from the start he was yes yes now watch manager Sadler told us in evidence yesterday that he was
00:39:47 evidence yesterday that he was instructed to use channel 3 to talk to see you seven can you can you do you recall anything about how that wouldn't that would make sense I was on for them because that was certainly when the booming right do you know you don't know
00:40:01 booming right do you know you don't know anything about how he was told that boy
00:40:07 from from the media star informing control that we was FSG for what seemed
00:40:18 control that we was FSG for what seemed like hours my head was buried in that pad concentrating on the information coming in from the flats okay there was lots of radio traffic discussions communications plans being drawn up to
00:40:32 communications plans being drawn up to log such a vast amount of calls that we just didn't have the pipework bulbs in that size so I was trying to say is
00:40:44 that size so I was trying to say is there was a lot going on a mocker if your vision and sound but I couldn't I couldn't give you detail because I couldn't take I wasn't wouldn't be able to do that and to make accurate information control so mom I'm gonna be
00:40:59 information control so mom I'm gonna be sketchy on a lot of I'm on try and answer as best I can but I think I'm gonna be sketchy on a lot of detail because my priority was taking information to pass on okay did that make that make sense you know absolutely
00:41:11 make that make sense you know absolutely and thank you and I just want to get clear of what radio channels you have be able to use to communicate with fire ground say that's what watch manager Sadler said I think you don't remember
00:41:23 Sadler said I think you don't remember can I just try something else with you DeSilva told us that she used channel three when radio messages came to her to receive calls do you remember that so
00:41:36 receive calls do you remember that so complete that to watch manager - Silvo yeah was at the bridgehead yep use channel three to receive messages okay that makes sense so I mean I was mistaken on channel 3 channel 4
00:41:47 I was mistaken on channel 3 channel 4 would make sense for me to talk to control right so so channel 3 would then be the communication between a bridgehead and cu7 right okay now just going back a bit to
00:42:00 right okay now just going back a bit to receiving messages from the controller while you are on cu7 you are using the radio sorry actually it's a different
00:42:11 radio sorry actually it's a different system anyway difference sorry our system the mainstream radio is different from the fire ground radio yes so they would have been using channel 3 on the fire ground radio right okay it's a
00:42:23 fire ground radio right okay it's a different network right different yeah lunchtime okay nice time so you could what you could use rt4 to talk to the control room but also use channel 3 on the fire ground yes is it it's a different like a different system okay
00:42:35 different like a different system okay okay
00:42:36 okay no that's okay they're just game with that in mind when sad watch manager Sadler and 'silver said that they both use channel 3 to communicate with C's 7 okay is that something you can help with
00:42:48 okay is that something you can help with do you know whether that happened I don't know but I don't see why that would not be the case right now let me see if I can just build a picture of
00:43:00 see if I can just build a picture of communications when you're in cu7 yeah you're using this right raid the radio to talk to the control room yeah mine screen right the main scheme radio and with that that's our at
00:43:12 radio and with that that's our at channel 4 yes right what was Dan Mary look sorry was there anybody else talking to the control room at the same time yes Dan Mary and what
00:43:23 at the same time yes Dan Mary and what was he using mobile phone right and were you both speaking to the control room and receiving FSG messages from the control
00:43:33 control in parallel yes for how long were you doing that I'll see you on Cu seven hours right what was did you observe dan
00:43:46 hours right what was did you observe dan Marek recording FSG information I didn't observe in that did you record FSG information that you were getting
00:43:57 FSG information that you were getting from control on the control information
00:44:04 idea right yeah control information form okay and what did you then do with just
00:44:17 okay and what did you then do with just take step back control information form is a quadruplet Curt yes white yellow blue and green if I've got the order right yeah you right is this right you
00:44:28 right yeah you right is this right you write the information down on a on the white top cop yet did you what did you then do with the pieces of paper and be white yellow I think really really I was
00:44:41 white yellow I think really really I was passing it to have been either Dan or Tom whoever's been in front of me right to process right and then then I was placed in college as I was coming
00:44:55 placed in college as I was coming through yes I was placed him in order and they would take them and then deal with them because that was never so far thick and fast right did you when you say you were processing them what did
00:45:07 say you were processing them what did you do with the what did you separate them out into yellows and blues and green and white just put the whole lot right do you know what happened to the forms when you handed them over to
00:45:18 forms when you handed them over to somebody what physically happened yes forms none you don't know I know we had copies but weapons to the carbon poppies and where they are when
00:45:30 carbon poppies and where they are when our RV was not something I was doing in there
00:45:32 there do you remember sending any copies or originals to watch to anybody on the incident ground may person yes no right do you remember whether down Marik sent
00:45:43 do you remember whether down Marik sent any copies of control information forms all pieces of paper to anybody on the incident ground I'm not aware of him no I'm not aware of him sending anything that's not to say he did but he would he
00:45:56 that's not to say he did but he would he would he was standing where I was standing on see you I say you said when we were both at the back do you do you remember radioing Sita from cu7
00:46:07 remember radioing Sita from cu7 any FSG details to watch manager Sadler on the incident ground no do you remember it to anyone on the Instagram at all not to my recollection up right
00:46:24 at all not to my recollection up right can I show you what would have been control
00:46:34 you say it would have been controlled who spoke to somebody direct our spokes of control OCR you spoke to control your own display to control on the radio yes yeah did you speak to anybody on the
00:46:45 yeah did you speak to anybody on the incident ground on it by any other method of communication lfb yes did it do
00:46:54 do did you speak to anybody on the incident ground such as watch manager Sadler by nothing no but at all I don't even know what's managed Sadler is right and what about any communications with the
00:47:05 about any communications with the bridgehead to do it have any radio or any other communications with the bridgehead direct myself man do you know where the watch manager Marek did I
00:47:16 don't know yeah I just remember him taking a constant stream of calls via the phone right do
00:47:35 you could you please be shown MIT triple zero one six nine six seven
00:47:59 this is and now this is a photograph
00:48:07 of
00:48:09 I'll tell you what this is then I'll ask you about it it's a photograph which watch manager Sadler took of an envelope that he received from an officer he
00:48:24 that he received from an officer he can't identify when he was on the fire ground working on the bonnet of the car at about 220 or so now if he then said
00:48:38 at about 220 or so now if he then said that's them to the bridgehead the elderly do you remember this document use deep disease trigger a recollection in your head no you said this is written
00:48:51 in your head no you said this is written on an envelope yes back of Olinda cu7 no can you help with the words Brett
00:49:02 no can you help with the words Brett loft I see
00:49:09 think that will that that says that Brett loss was instant commander that's how I read it yes do you remember whether Brett loss was at any stage incident come on I done
00:49:21 was at any stage incident come on I done do you know who Brett Loft is station manager look I know the name I thought I don't know the face - did you know what role if any Brett loft I played at the incident no you don't know whether he
00:49:32 incident no you don't know whether he was given charge of FSG information handling effort even though he met Brett loft but I don't don't know I've no right manager Darden gave evidence that
00:49:43 right manager Darden gave evidence that when Brett loft appeared on the scene there was a discussion between them and Brett loft it was decided that Brett loft would take charge of FSGS do you
00:49:54 loft would take charge of FSGS do you remember that suggestive is evidence do you remember that no okay so you don't know anything about this document I don't know what sorry anything about this document right
00:50:15 do you remember receiving back into cu7 white sari yellow sheets oven of control information forms which had come from
00:50:28 information forms which had come from the fire ground me personally now do you remember whether anybody else on see you seven ever received from the fire ground
00:50:40 seven ever received from the fire ground and he yellow any yellow control information form sheets did you see them coming in to see you soon
00:50:52 I can't recollect any No
00:51:16 now on page three of your statement you say at the bottom mmm due to the sheer scale
00:51:27 at the bottom mmm due to the sheer scale of the amount of people within Grenville tower we adopted a grid method on the whiteboards instead of the standard paper method normally used due to the sheer size of the building the amount of
00:51:39 sheer size of the building the amount of the rescues needed the board has made it to a grid to share the 24 floors and the number of each flats on that floor were indicated with a box
00:51:51 can you explain first of all what the normal paper method standard method of recording FSG information is yeah we
00:52:02 recording FSG information is yeah we have we have a pad form that we use up a knife or had similar in size to the
00:52:13 knife or had similar in size to the control information form but I think it holds seven only seven FSG calls but so
00:52:24 holds seven only seven FSG calls but so that's that would be an initial way of logging them that that would get sent up to the bridgehead in Latvia you know on a hardcopy so not the control information form
00:52:36 so not the control information form No right let me just see if I can explore this a bit further could you be shown FS FSG policy 790 that you said
00:52:48 shown FS FSG policy 790 that you said was you're familiar with I think what you're referring to would this be right is appendix three which is at page nine internally
00:53:06 yes that's also enlarged laminated version on the command unit right again but as I said it's set seven sins is
00:53:18 but as I said it's set seven sins is this right that the grid was an attempt to replicate this kind of system of reporting information uh I wasn't really in on its conception but that's my understanding yes no just to get back to
00:53:31 understanding yes no just to get back to the question I asked in a normal case yep
00:53:34 yep when an FSG comes to the command unit what is the standard paper method of recording it do you use appendix three casualty information protocol yes control
00:53:46 information protocol yes control information all right okay insert so that's appendix two we can look at it just so you've got your don't you remember that was absolutely clear if
00:53:57 remember that was absolutely clear if you go back to the pendeks two page before you got back what we just looked at will be a poster large native poster
00:54:09 at will be a poster large native poster okay just just taking this in stages appending in a normal case not grant filled in the normal case is sitting on the control unit the commodity unit and then FSG comes in you take the call you
00:54:20 then FSG comes in you take the call you record the information yeah do you use appendix to control information form to record that information yes right and then you are caught in the normal case the white copy it says ICP that stays at
00:54:34 the white copy it says ICP that stays at the incident command pump or does it go to the incident command pump if your honor commands unit
00:54:51 that would stay that would go to mop films looking at vows or go to innocent come on pump right and we would keep would people copy and then the other copies we go after to preach heads okay
00:55:03 copies we go after to preach heads okay and the other copies you say the other copies there's a yellow and a blue and a green yeah so the yellow would be kept is that right by the see you yeah I mean you'd annotate that to whoever wanted
00:55:14 you'd annotate that to whoever wanted this appear to keep it okay and what would find and so the yellow would be kept the blue and green would go to the bridgehead is that what you're is that what you're saying I'm not sure where
00:55:30 what you're saying I'm not sure where the uppers would go honest and looking at it appendix three casualty information poster mm-hmm that what happens when does that get recorded filled out we can put out from our
00:55:44 filled out we can put out from our whiteboard I see okay and that information does that go to the bridgehead on a piece of paper or all or not there is a smaller version of that
00:55:56 not there is a smaller version of that right okay a knife or version of this but that's that's a appendix three as it says to the policy and with that piece
00:56:09 says to the policy and with that piece of paper appendix three filter also go to the bridgehead along with the blue or green yes my understanding is so they say so what is this right what goes to
00:56:20 say so what is this right what goes to the bridgehead is the blue or green copy sheets from the control information form and this disap index casualty information poster yeah depending on the number of FS geez but we've got okay
00:56:36 and let's look at a photograph
00:56:43 first of all it's tap 23 of the documents bundle or m80 triple zero one five nine two four
00:56:56 that is it's enlarged abode that is the the fullest picture we've got um off the grid I think that you're referring to yeah do you know who who drew this grid
00:57:09 yeah do you know who who drew this grid will designed this grid on cu7 I believe it was a discussed by Norm Harrison Dan
00:57:25 it was a discussed by Norm Harrison Dan Egan and possibly Tom Goodall but I believe it was norm Harrison actually put the grid together right did you see him do it yeah I definitely see him
00:57:38 him do it yeah I definitely see him having a major contribution to draw it out yeah where we did the whole thing I couldn't say but he certainly had a large input in it right now you say on page four of your statement at the top
00:57:50 page four of your statement at the top my colleagues on the command unit were trying to work out a system to show also which flat had been searched which ones have not and who who we had received an FSG call from and who not
00:58:01 FSG call from and who not this is all ongoing as I took messages and I could not be entirely sure that the whole system they were operating the do completed each role first of all who were the colleagues that you're referring to norm Harrison person yep
00:58:14 referring to norm Harrison person yep Tom Goodell and Dan Egan right person hurry and dad Merrick was there I don't know what him input he he had on filling it out but he was there too and you to
00:58:27 it out but he was there too and you to go back to the picture we can which is one 594 do you remember who was actually filling in the information
00:58:43 [Music]
00:58:46 I can't remember did you it may have been more than one person I can't I so my head what I was for that for a large majority I was focused on taking fhg
00:58:57 majority I was focused on taking fhg calls so I wouldn't have been giving it a lot of attention so it'll way way into the incident when things are winding down okay no even
00:59:08 things are winding down okay no even gain an hour mister Peckham would you like a short break I wouldn't - you okay yeah probably we'd all like a thought yeah spent right we'll break for ten minutes
00:59:20 spent right we'll break for ten minutes okay come on please didn't talk to anyone about your evidence well we're having a break and we'll come back at twenty past three please
00:59:39 but 24th Street in please
00:59:50 you
01:10:24 [Music] massive EMT
01:10:40 Oh Dutch
01:10:54 let's pick them I didn't have to carry honor yes yes yes first minute no nobody mr. Pitkin thank you for coming back um can I just ask you yeah you said that you were on the radio
01:11:06 yeah you said that you were on the radio are on c7 four hours can you help me with something if you go to the short incident log we
01:11:18 if you go to the short incident log we can see that from oh sorry go to please go to page 22 I've showed you this
01:11:31 go to page 22 I've showed you this before in the middle of 22 with the time mark of Oh - 23 33 Sharon Darby records the message see you seven run all FSG
01:11:42 the message see you seven run all FSG calls via cu7 and then continuing along after Oates after that time you can see that there
01:11:57 after that time you can see that there are lots of radio messages to and from CUA via RT for if you turn to page 23 and scroll down just look at that in
01:12:10 and scroll down just look at that in general I think I didn't want to give you the impression of these pages page 23 and then page 24 and if you look at the time mark of 310 51 just there as a
01:12:23 the time mark of 310 51 just there as a there's a call or a service request completed cu8 RT for persons in flat one five three two adults and three children now after 310 the short incident log at
01:12:38 now after 310 the short incident log at least and we'll check the long incident log but we think the position is the same does not record any further FSG messages by radio
01:12:52 FSG messages by radio with see you at live with NEC you can you explain that explain can you explain
01:13:05 you explain that explain can you explain are you able to explain why the short incident log records no radio transmitted FSG calls from the control room to see you seven after three ten
01:13:21 are you clearing or how clear are you in your recollection that you continued in radio contact with the control room receiving FSG calls after 3:10 yeah I'm
01:13:43 receiving FSG calls after 3:10 yeah I'm saying that chair till daybreak taking calls and telephone call oh and radio calls by the window but that that in my mind was fair Wayne's incident right so
01:13:58 mind was fair Wayne's incident right so that that doesn't correspond in my mind to what I believe happened okay do you recall taking FSG calls information by radio from the control room when it was
01:14:11 radio from the control room when it was getting light no no it's not quite in that not quite then do you recall the FSG radio traffic to you from the
01:14:22 FSG radio traffic to you from the control of tailing off at any point yeah it didn't I love you like I can [Music]
01:14:32 [Music] I'll give you specific times right right
01:14:39 okay
01:14:53 can we go back to the photograph at 1:59 - for
01:15:02 which is the photograph of the whiteboard grid yeah if we can just have it enlarged this is on cu7 okay are you able to assist assist with
01:15:14 okay are you able to assist assist with the key do you know who designed the key I don't know are you able to assist with its meaning I mean could you answer questions about what some of these
01:15:26 questions about what some of these things mean from your own recollection other than looking at it now and and linking it together I have no input in its design or or core
01:15:38 I have no input in its design or or core concepts or Hera's I didn't run it so it probably evolved because as you know as the incident got more active I had no import on its key or anything
01:15:51 I had no import on its key or anything you don't say you can't help us with what the red ticks me know I'd be surmising I can have hard facts do you know in general terms whether the information on the grid reflected
01:16:03 information on the grid reflected information coming back to c7 from the incident ground yes it did did it yes you know that it did well again a lot of
01:16:16 you know that it did well again a lot of stuff was in my peripheral right so but I know that there were there would be a cater to to whether it had been may be
01:16:27 cater to to whether it had been may be searched or have been given to the bridge had to be searched and it was being updated you know so the only other
01:16:38 being updated you know so the only other update that we would get would be numbers so so the circles and squares and ticks would have to reflect some information on that flap other than the
01:16:49 information on that flap other than the numbers in the flat yes so it would it would indicate where we were in regards to rescue searching information passed but I wasn't I
01:17:01 information passed but I wasn't I weren't privy to what the squares and circles okay you said a lot of stuff is in your peripheral and some of that
01:17:16 in your peripheral and some of that information would reflect information coming from the incident ground do you remember how information was coming to see you seven from the incident ground
01:17:27 see you seven from the incident ground about particular searches I believe it was coming from various sources radio I
01:17:40 was coming from various sources radio I know that we had there was a firefighter on Friday long don't know him more than aware is from it was a young asian guy
01:17:52 aware is from it was a young asian guy that saw a member he was acting as a runner I don't know what he did exactly again because you have to pressure sitting in that chair you're with one to
01:18:03 sitting in that chair you're with one to another for people on it as well your vision is blocked subscribers to sit in that chair you mostly to Thursday vision is a screen so you had just seen the corner of people so seeing them annotate
01:18:15 corner of people so seeing them annotate the pool etc I'd have to literally hear around and get off my seat to do it so so a lot of stuff was going on but I know it was a runner right point I don't know what information
01:18:26 know what information was wasn't passing on certainly radio traffic right and station manager Washington Pete Wolfington I remember him coming onto the unit at various
01:18:39 him coming onto the unit at various times was he do you remember whether he was bringing documents pieces of paper up Predacon I know I know he did come on at various times you you you said that
01:18:51 at various times you you you said that some information he believed was coming in from the incident ground by radio who was holding a radio do you think you
01:19:04 was holding a radio do you think you remember who received that information [Music]
01:19:07 [Music] certainly Dan Egan was talking on the radio
01:19:11 radio all right no station manager then again well his fire ground radio was that I believe so right I see June do you know
01:19:23 believe so right I see June do you know or even vaguely remember how who who he was talking to know if I was to ask you
01:19:35 was talking to know if I was to ask you detailed questions about any of these flats such as for example if you look at 175 if I was to ask you whether you were
01:19:48 175 if I was to ask you whether you were able to help us with the circumstances in which a green 5 was attributed to that fact would you be able to help well fire would be the amount of person in sight but deep do you recall the sir
01:20:02 in sight but deep do you recall the sir I mean do you recall the circumstances image of green fibers attributed to that fact that I'm just going on look looking at that there's not a specific flat neither do you have any
01:20:15 specific flat neither do you have any specific recollections looking at the grid as a whole about any of these in aren't the additions that were made to the grid and respective interview now claims that they I mean absolutely
01:20:26 claims that they I mean absolutely nothing's right to me and that's true is that true of all of those yeah no actual writing okay as such so no can I can I
01:20:37 writing okay as such so no can I can I ask you to look at another document which is a photograph met triple zero one five nine three six which is tab 48
01:20:51 and this is another whiteboard on cu7 which appears to be to the left of the grid white oh you've just been looking at yeah and do you recognize this I
01:21:02 at yeah and do you recognize this I recognized the bald yes do you can you help with what's recorded there
01:21:19 [Music]
01:21:24 other than reading it and coming to a conclusion before look that's the first time I've actually seen that fault but because you know people standing in
01:21:35 because you know people standing in front of it I wouldn't question what to ask him whether he can remember seeing it on the night or seeing someone writing sinfulness yes matter let's
01:21:48 writing sinfulness yes matter let's start it was a bit do you remember anybody writing information on the white wall next to the grid no right
01:22:02 can you help with any of the detail that we see there the way that might have come from so for example rescued straight evacuated CW any clue as to who as to who and what information that is
01:22:13 as to who and what information that is that got written up there I think one is asking is do you actually would call someone doing it as opposed simply to try and interpret it for us man no I I don't remember it being written
01:22:26 no I I don't remember it being written and I can't say when it was written other other then obviously it's got x on there so it's very little I can tell you about that ball other than reading it
01:22:37 about that ball other than reading it making some assumptions on Fri yes okay can I ask you about another picture can you please look at triple zero one five nine two seven which is tab four to four
01:22:51 now
01:22:57 I was going to ask you about the plaque on the right hand side yeah which was taken from the tower and yet had some evidence about that do you do you know where the plaque do you remember that
01:23:09 where the plaque do you remember that plaque being obtained from the tower I'm I'm aware of it yes and I've it's been spoken about since they've been sent as well do you know about roughly what time
01:23:23 well do you know about roughly what time it was taken from the tower and brought to see you seven no all I know is who or who I believe took it I'm not sure of time right
01:23:47 do you have any recollection about getting plans of the tower no do you remember receiving any plans of the
01:23:58 remember receiving any plans of the tower at any stage none okay did you do you remember ever getting a list of residents no now we discussed
01:24:09 list of residents no now we discussed earlier on your activity of writing down FSG information as it came in yeah and you as let's just gate let's get some clarity on this if we can in your
01:24:22 clarity on this if we can in your statement on page four a quarter of the way down you say I was taking down messages in a carbonated book and passing a copy to my colleagues who are updating the white board this was
01:24:34 updating the white board this was usually Tom Goodall the infant this information was then being passed on to far supervisors at the bridge which is the command area within the building where the firefighters would be deployed to rescues I can't say who this was
01:24:47 to rescues I can't say who this was receiving or acting upon the information I was provided now the carbonated book is that the quadruplicate multi-coloured form could control information forms yes right and just to be just to be clear
01:24:59 right and just to be just to be clear which pages of those which colored pages of those was being sent do you think to the bridge the bridgehead I can't say once I'd filled them out I passed them
01:25:10 once I'd filled them out I passed them over and I didn't see them again right did you can I just ask you the control information forms when they come in trip in quadruped ago they glued together as a foursome yes I see so in
01:25:21 together as a foursome yes I see so in order to separate them they would have to be as it were torn apart yes and do you remember seeing anybody separating the white top or the yellow second copy enough
01:25:40 can I just ask you just to look at one or two of these as an example could you look at lfb quadruple zero one nine two two
01:25:54 to surface you can help with this this is page one and this is a yellow version of get a copy of control information the
01:26:10 of get a copy of control information the watch manager Sadler breakdown he had some quadruplets as well out on the incident ground and he says he was receiving messages either by radio or
01:26:21 receiving messages either by radio or earth or from the envelope we looked at and there was writing them down and then sending the yellow forms back to the command unit just looking at the the whole thing for a moment you does this
01:26:33 whole thing for a moment you does this trigger a recollection no indeed you may not be able to help with a specific do you remember getting controlled information yellow sheets back from the incident ground with a number at the top
01:26:46 incident ground with a number at the top in a ring now don't
01:26:57 do you remember getting any yellow versions or yellow sheets of control original nothing back at all once I filled in my forms that was the IRB the
01:27:10 filled in my forms that was the IRB the only forms I received would have been from the police right can I just ask you to look at one or two other documents that were found in cu7 by the NFB after
01:27:21 that were found in cu7 by the NFB after the incident and this is lfb quadruple zero one nine six eight can I just ask you to look first of all the page 40
01:27:38 this is a white 212 this is a control information killing page with quite a lot of information on it about various
01:27:52 lot of information on it about various different flats and floors do you think that's your writing definitely not definitely not can I ask you to look at page pages 44 and 45
01:28:08 is any of that you're writing do you think no okay can I ask you to look at page 12
01:28:20 now this is a different kind of sheet first of all can you tell us what this is this sheet this is form this is standard message pad right did you have some of that on the see you yes you did
01:28:32 some of that on the see you yes you did yes did you use it to record FSG information no you didn't okay can you help with the handwriting all the information on that place just looking at it and then can I just ask
01:28:53 looking at it and then can I just ask you look going to page 18 this is a Metropolitan Police Service memo do you remember seeing any of these when you were on cu7 it's just an example right
01:29:04 were on cu7 it's just an example right there everything anyways okay now you refer to a runner earlier yeah do you remember whether there was any one run at all more than one only one
01:29:15 one run at all more than one only one that I can recollect right
01:29:24 and you say that you said earlier this afternoon that you were sitting by a small window in the sea you yeah was that true all through the night once you got to see you seven yes right
01:29:36 once you got to see you seven yes right did you have a good view of the tower from there yes
01:29:41 did you during your conversations with the control room to tell them about what you could see no you didn't it is there
01:29:53 you could see no you didn't it is there any reason why you didn't tell them what you could see it wasn't my role my role was to take fire survival guidance information right that was my task right did you have a communication link from
01:30:06 did you have a communication link from the sea you to the heli telly
01:30:14 [Music]
01:30:24 by Icona member I believe there was a link I can't remember visually seeing it right right I know I know the helicopter was up there art because there was some
01:30:36 was up there art because there was some talk with people on the roof complex actually physically see any do you remember writing down on the control information form any information that
01:30:48 information form any information that have come through the heli tele link I do recollect getting information about potentially people on the roof or
01:31:00 potentially people on the roof or hearing that information I'm not sure if I wrote it down but the office but we were made aware of it right I can't remember where that information came through but I do recollect their being
01:31:16 through but I do recollect their being talked of people on the roof at some point right and I wonder if you could be shown lfp 1 9 2 2 and turn to page 16 in that run of documents
01:31:32 now this is a controlled information [Music]
01:31:37 [Music] form yeah and this was again found in cu7 we believed [Music]
01:31:50 do you know who wrote that hell attorney west aspect three from top multiple persons trap that looks like my right as
01:32:02 persons trap that looks like my right as you opened it was like yeah right okay does that help you with your recollection of getting getting information from the Hurley telly yes
01:32:13 information from the Hurley telly yes right and do you remember how you then sent that information sorry did you send that information to anybody on the incident I would have given it to to the
01:32:25 incident I would have given it to to the my other colleagues on the the truck what I would have given it to the appropriate people right so that's your handwriting okay
01:32:40 can I just then ask you to the
01:32:54 right
01:32:58 same
01:33:06 Xzibit but looking at page 10
01:33:22 page ten six pages back No is that your handwriting it looks likely okay this is another I can't I can tell you this one is in our bundle
01:33:35 can tell you this one is in our bundle in white so this is this is something it looks like it went out of the sea you
01:33:45 would this be an example of you recording incoming FSG information on a white control information for ya right can I ask you to look at page 14
01:34:07 [Music]
01:34:10 do you do you recognize your handwriting on any part of that page
01:34:22 yeah I would say that it's my hand all of it starting at the top 183 23rd floor moving yet right once again I'm not it could all be my
01:34:39 once again I'm not it could all be my handwriting it's like Christian art with in numbers down the side but if there is a top coffee and it's all the same color then I would say that's all mine right it's
01:34:50 I would say that's all mine right it's my right now looking at page 15 if we can just keep keep 14 on the screen and look at 15 can you help us with this
01:35:06 fifteen looks like the yellow copy or here fourteen that somebody's added on the white copy underneath for list 9 2 2 1 5 3 and 1 1 3 which is not on the
01:35:18 1 5 3 and 1 1 3 which is not on the yellow it is the is they are those white additions sorry there's three additions on the white copy yours do you think all if somebody else is it's just not
01:35:29 if somebody else is it's just not judging by the handwriting well do you recognize them as being in your handwriting
01:35:45 it could be unsafe for sure but he could be okay if you looking at 50 this is really what about what I want to do to get that you could see that the yellow version of the of the white version
01:35:58 version of the of the white version without those three editions yeah on it someone has it looks as if they've over written on the yellow copy priorities yes do you know whose handwriting that would be I recognize that okay do you
01:36:12 would be I recognize that okay do you remember at all over writing on yellow copies okay
01:36:36 um right now [Music]
01:36:43 do you remember there be any discussion about the appropriateness of the stay-put advice with anybody that you heard when you were in cu7 it was it was
01:36:55 heard when you were in cu7 it was it was something that again anything I was being discussed not to me personally but but there were discussions made about it
01:37:09 but there were discussions made about it yeah did you hear them I heard yeah I can't give you specifics but everyone basically would have had an opinion on it right did you express an opinion on it
01:37:19 it I don't remember verbalizing it to anyone right did you have no certainly not on cu7 did you have an opinion on it on the staple of the words yes on
01:37:32 on the staple of the words yes on whether or yeah they're more specific yeah did you have an opinion on whether it was sensible to maintain a staple policy what style what well
01:37:46 when you were taking the fire survival guidance calls after you arrived at cu7 I I wouldn't have I would have
01:37:58 [Music]
01:38:03 there's a lot of in a lot of internal conflict going on with that but yes I'd say I would have said if you can get out and get out right do you let's be more specific do you remember hearing at any debate or
01:38:15 remember hearing at any debate or discussion between other people on cu7 as to the wisdom of maintaining the staple of policy or whether it should be revoked I can't give you specifics it was talked about right and I can't tell
01:38:27 was talked about right and I can't tell you what time it was okay but I know it was a constant discussion right
01:38:54 you say in your statement on page five in the middle that you would you say we
01:39:05 in the middle that you would you say we were getting additional information from certain flats that appeared to change also from the original amount of people recorded to be present this I believe is occurring when several people started to
01:39:16 occurring when several people started to move between each other's flats I did not have direct dealings with updating the board but was aware of information changing can we be a bit more specific
01:39:28 changing can we be a bit more specific about that do you have a specific recollection of any particular flats where people were moving from and to know at some point during the night I
01:39:42 know at some point during the night I was receiving further information from them from the Met Police I don't know where that information is coming from but it was being gathered over the met
01:39:55 but it was being gathered over the met police radio and I was taking this information through the window right at the booking in window that we would use next to the chair and I was at that time
01:40:08 next to the chair and I was at that time I was able to look round not every time but more more than earlier on so it was either given to one of the staff working one of my colleagues I was able to look
01:40:19 one of my colleagues I was able to look round and see that the numbers were different so obviously I would relate that would then be given to to one of the colleagues up base in involved so
01:40:30 the colleagues up base in involved so this was why what way into the incident model I can't give you specifics but there were suddenly there were numbers going up and I weren't tallying with our
01:40:42 going up and I weren't tallying with our original FSG calls from control right so these were this was updated information coming from adminstrators yeah for the police on the Instagram yes
01:40:54 police on the Instagram yes did you know where they were getting the information okay now you just focusing on what you say about several people started to move between each other's flats yeah
01:41:06 between each other's flats yeah did you recall that information yourself poppy I might be moved from particular flats no I didn't it was due there was a quick conversation between all of us on the unit as to why the numbers were
01:41:18 the unit as to why the numbers were going up and I think that's what we came up with that I don't I don't know if any of my colleagues it got initial additional information on that but initially that it was thought that
01:41:29 initially that it was thought that that's probably what was happening for it they might have been gathering in one flat if possible but this is a summation we have no proof of that or I'm not aware of any evidence of it it was just our thoughts on why that would be
01:41:41 our thoughts on why that would be happening right can I show you a document to see if you can help us with it
01:41:46 it NFB 1968 196 8 at page 17
01:42:03 no this is a it looks like a scrap of paper three inches by two inches do you recognize the handwriting now do do you remember any discussion
01:42:16 now do do you remember any discussion about mother and child move moving from one one five two one one three
01:42:28 one one five two one one three okay now get back to your statement you say and it picks up on something you just said a minute ago that about about
01:42:42 just said a minute ago that about about information being new you say some of the information was repeated it's just a bit further above that exactly halfway down the page you say some of the information was repeated yeah and some
01:42:54 information was repeated yeah and some was new information I was again very busy taking this information but I was now having an opportunity to cross-reference the information if repeated now when you say now does that
01:43:06 repeated now when you say now does that mean that there was a period when you were unable to cross-check new information that was coming in yeah what I mean by that is initially I was purely taking FSG calls as things ultimately
01:43:20 taking FSG calls as things ultimately GAAP started to appear and I was able to get up off my chair as it were you know half a meter and look round the corner
01:43:31 half a meter and look round the corner right and to physically look at the number and see if it was the same okay if it was the same information then there was no point troubling or rewriting or or you know the position
01:43:44 rewriting or or you know the position was the same in that flat that if this if the information had changed then I would obviously let them know that there's now the number had gone up for it was new information or a new flat because there was some I believe that
01:43:56 because there was some I believe that were blank still so might have been a new flat maybe that I'll forgiving new information but if there was no change then obviously it was the information we had on the board was current right when
01:44:08 had on the board was current right when you got repeat information for the same flat that it all even recorded on the grid yeah what did you would you do with that information second when you got repeat information and respect of the same flat you haven't
01:44:20 and respect of the same flat you haven't already been entered into the into the grid what did you do with that that isn't that new but repeat information as I said if if I had a chance to cross-reference it myself I would write
01:44:32 cross-reference it myself I would write it was handed to one of the Cu staff so I'll take the board okay but what if the information stayed the same did you still fill out afresh control information the heat you didn't so what
01:44:45 information the heat you didn't so what would happen to the information where you just have another call in respective the same flat with no change in information what what did happen with the paperwork okay let me try the question again yeah when you've got a
01:44:56 question again yeah when you've got a call from control no this isn't from control business from the Met Police oh I see right yeah so that there was no - because from control that I'm aware of
01:45:07 - because from control that I'm aware of in this person yeah I'm speaking about the the further information I started getting from the police I'm so sorry say in your statement because it's not clear from your statement you say some of the
01:45:19 statement you say some of the information was repeated in summers new information that's this whole paragraph is referring only to the information you were getting at police yes it's all this piastre might follow okay did you do any further did you do any
01:45:31 did you do any further did you do any cross-checking between the information you've got from control and the grid the whiteboard at any stage as I said when I got an opportunity I would visually
01:45:42 got an opportunity I would visually check and if there was no change then obviously it was not a priority to to tell the guys on the truck right but if
01:45:53 tell the guys on the truck right but if there was a change and I would let them know that there's new information but it would be updated the numbers or ambition in flat maybe I can't remember specifics yes now two-thirds of the way
01:46:08 specifics yes now two-thirds of the way down page five you say I could hear I can recall several calls that were duplicated but as time progressed I was fearful that these people were not being rescued
01:46:19 rescued I could hear background radio information that we were struggling to get to the upper floors yeah I was frustrated at the lack of information coming through regarding rescues it felt we had no idea of the progress of the
01:46:31 we had no idea of the progress of the rescue at a times from the within the command unit and it made me wish I could throw on a suit and get in there to help
01:46:41 just breaking that down a bit the background radio information was coming through to the cu7 whose radio could you hear that on what we've there's various
01:46:55 hear that on what we've there's various riders we've got a there's a command channel which is 10 that there's obviously a fire ground radio which would be one that would have been on there and being monitored there's there's a control that would be in the
01:47:07 there's a control that would be in the background control flow knobs sort of got for that be turned to turn down but it would be in the background so we
01:47:18 it would be in the background so we would be aware of a lot of radio traffic so we'd get albeit air to be low because our my priority was taking advice while the pilots call but we had no idea of
01:47:29 the pilots call but we had no idea of some of the traffic that was coming backwards and forwards and where and where they was bits of information that was spoken about throughout the okay and the message we were struggling
01:47:42 okay and the message we were struggling to get above will get to the upper floors yeah as you say did you ever hear which floors there was a problem getting to I can't be sure
01:47:55 to I can't be sure 7 does ring a bell but at one point 7 and 11
01:48:01 and 11 I'm touching scores I can't give you details I know I'm looking out the window and I can see the whole thing alive and that we certainly weren't we
01:48:12 alive and that we certainly weren't we certainly weren't anywhere near floors 20 23 19 right that's that's why I'm getting out we were nowhere near the floors of me fire fires there
01:48:23 floors of me fire fires there do you remember whether there was a particular problem getting above the 15th floor at any stage that's more than what I can't recollect any specifics but yes we are done okay that seems more
01:48:36 yes we are done okay that seems more than feasible when you say in your statement
01:48:39 statement have you heard background information that we were struggling to get to the upper floors did did you relay that information to control I didn't know did you did you know whether anybody else did no well we wasn't where was the FSG
01:48:53 did no well we wasn't where was the FSG truck I mean this this will should have would I would assume would all be ever being monitored on the main command unit I'm bearing in mind I think every come on Ian he was there so I wasn't aware
01:49:04 on Ian he was there so I wasn't aware moving into the incident what the other command units were doing but I would imagine there'd be plenty of people man in the main command unit which is the ICP so that would have all been should
01:49:15 ICP so that would have all been should have all been coming through that radio
01:49:19 brightness thought will be coming to us and the incident command pump being what G two seven one eight we'll see you eight yeah I mean I would imagine it
01:49:30 eight yeah I mean I would imagine it must have taken a look at some we definitely did you so is this right that your understanding was that any feedback from the incident ground as to
01:49:41 feedback from the incident ground as to the conditions in the building and the success or failure of deployments would all go back through cu8 with it to the control room see you I would have liaised with cu7
01:49:52 see you I would have liaised with cu7 but four major operational decisions it would have companies and commander which would have been based on cui okay do you know who that was at any time and ero I
01:50:06 know who that was at any time and ero I believe for a large amount right okay of the time previous to that I'm not sure what the swap overs were right mr. Chen
01:50:19 what the swap overs were right mr. Chen it's four o'clock tears yes and I feel I'd feel it's four o'clock as well as been see it's four o'clock I've got a handful of questions left and I'm in
01:50:30 handful of questions left and I'm in your hands as we take that's literally take a break it might be prudent take a break now and then I can finish off this is benefit in mind how long do you see
01:50:41 is benefit in mind how long do you see the questions you currently know about and likely to take five minutes but then you might have to check that there are none if I might assume that currently aware yes I think we'll take a break now
01:50:52 aware yes I think we'll take a break now mr. Peckham sounds as though mr. millet doesn't have a lot more okay look to you but he may have to sweep up a few say shopping should we do that this will stop for ten minutes okay if you'd like
01:51:03 stop for ten minutes okay if you'd like to come back at ten past four will sweep things up then okay and he said talk to anyone runner-up
01:51:15 [Music] ten parts for cheese [Music]
01:51:32 you
02:00:40 all right mr. Wickham yeah last laugh maybe Matthew hang on yes it's Peck I'm not not too much longer I promise in your statement you say on page five to
02:00:55 your statement you say on page five to or towards the bottom that I think I've just shown you you say I was frustrated at the lack of information coming through regarding rescues just to get
02:01:07 through regarding rescues just to get back to that as I stopped short before coming to some questions about that does that just let's look at the passage I was frustrated at the lack of information coming through
02:01:20 information coming through say prophet Alfred on the screen there there I was frustrated at the lack of information coming through regarding rescues it felt we had it felt we had no
02:01:34 rescues it felt we had it felt we had no idea of the progress of the rescue and at times from within the command unit my questions are first of all do you mean here that you aren't getting any or much
02:01:45 here that you aren't getting any or much feedback from the bridgehead about whether the individuals whose information you were passing on have actually been rescued that that's my perception yes right were you getting
02:01:57 perception yes right were you getting any feedback at all about those matters I wasn't aware of it and I didn't feel that the commander as a whole was getting feedback do you know why the command unit wasn't getting any feedback
02:02:10 command unit wasn't getting any feedback from the incident ground about deployments or or indeed the conditions in the tower
02:02:17 you know conditions were are going but extremely but as to us to progress on certain flats that's that's the bit that
02:02:30 certain flats that's that's the bit that I found difficult I'm not getting feedback from did you take any steps to pursue information from the bridgehead or or elsewhere on the incident ground about the successful failure of
02:02:42 about the successful failure of deployments to flats that you had information for I didn't personally know do you know whether anybody else did that there was constant I know that Dan
02:02:53 that there was constant I know that Dan Egan on several occasions made trips to the bridgehead right did he come back with any do you remember whether he came back with any information to you not to
02:03:04 back with any information to you not to me personally no right we don't know whether it was whether I'd missed any updates but it didn't seem like our iron is where of any progress right during
02:03:16 is where of any progress right during our entire time on cu7 did you ever speak to any operational officers at the brigade a brigade headquarters the guard headquarter the
02:03:27 headquarters the guard headquarter the Cooper site very well control room sorry boo gain control this moment no didn't okay you don't remember speaking to DAC Fenton
02:03:37 no right
02:03:42 now should I turn pensive now can I ask you still on the subject of communications to look at policy 488 which is incident communications which
02:03:56 which is incident communications which is a tap twelve of our policies bundle
02:04:01 and I ask you please to go to appendix one which is on internal page 9 of 16
02:04:11 now this is a diagram if we can enlarge it just a little bit to show the middle part of this that the key says that a a hard line broken with a double dot is is
02:04:25 hard line broken with a double dot is is something called mattel which is a it looks like a telephone link and may tell
02:04:36 that's a bit too enlarged I wonder if we can just respect that's it and it looks as if in the normal case there is a Mattel telephone link between the Cu and
02:04:49 Mattel telephone link between the Cu and be a main control with fear and VA ops coms arms in the normal case going back
02:05:00 coms arms in the normal case going back to the beginning of your evidence would you expect that link to be used between the command unit and the bridge head it would be channel 6 channel 6 yeah do you
02:05:11 would be channel 6 channel 6 yeah do you know what Mattel is it's a handheld radio that's a no-brainer here I see okay
02:05:21 do you know whether first of all the matter handheld radio link was used to link cu7 to the bridgehead right did you
02:05:36 link cu7 to the bridgehead right did you remember that's my recollection I didn't speak to the Pritchard right do you remember do you remember whether anybody from cu7 did speak to the bridgehead directly on their handheld radio yeah I'm pretty sure then even would have
02:05:49 I'm pretty sure then even would have spoken to the bridgehead okay and what about anybody else on the incident ground other than at the bridgehead you were with Dan Merrick one
02:06:05 bridgehead you were with Dan Merrick one of the radio operators on the Cu unit is there normally a designated radio operator somebody who is officially designated the radio operator for the
02:06:16 designated the radio operator for the see you normally yes it does depend on the scale of the incident and how many see yous except sure but but on a bigger you on a smaller incident you would have
02:06:28 you on a smaller incident you would have more than one job function but certainly on a big file obvious there will be a independent radio operator
02:06:40 there will be one on cui you'll be able to see myself taking FSG calls on seven
02:06:48 right can I then ask you just to look at to two or three more or three or four more documents first of all can you please go to lfb one nine two two and
02:07:06 please go to lfb one nine two two and turn to page 10
02:07:13 we were looking at some of these control information Falls performed looking at your handwriting is this another example of your handwriting do you think it is
02:07:24 of your handwriting do you think it is right
02:07:28 and then confirming a similar question in relation to some documents in 1 9 6 8 1 9 6 8 could we please go to page 41 first of all
02:07:46 is that your handwriting do you think yeah it is and do you know it's difficult to tell that was that you were
02:07:59 difficult to tell that was that you were looking at the looking at the whole document freaking look at the whole document you haven't put premise number or number of persons you've put all under additional information in the box and therefore Pelley tell you at the bottom yes so that that would have been
02:08:12 bottom yes so that that would have been information from the Hurley telly who would have no specific flat numbers to give us so all I could give us was southwest corner 17th floor and they're
02:08:23 southwest corner 17th floor and they're saying second from top that might be a contradiction and in 21st floor balcony that's the information they give us so that's what I wrote down and you know
02:08:35 that's what I wrote down and you know what you did with those information I would have given it passed it on to the guys on them see you in the same way as that all the other yes yeah okay next page 42 please is that your handwriting
02:08:48 page 42 please is that your handwriting yes okay and again do you know what you would have done with that in today it would have all been given right so to [Music]
02:08:58 [Music] the guys populating the vault No and finally page 43 next page do you think that's your handwriting
02:09:12 we're not sure that doesn't
02:09:23 does it ring a bit just the grim I know Ryan and it's hard to tell there could be my hand would be right yeah don't guess do you remember do you remember being told anything about a rope ladder does that stand out
02:09:45 it does Phegley stand out kind of right asakadai it's choking a bit of a memory but again the audio all the details are
02:09:57 but again the audio all the details are would have had would have been back right so I wouldn't visually seen it or anything it would have been over the radio but it's kind of its kind of sounded familiar right
02:10:12 okay finally do you remember whether the CSS on c7 continued to work worked at all during Joey we didn't use CSS right
02:10:27 all during Joey we didn't use CSS right it wouldn't really have been it certainly wouldn't have had a capability for a fast reliable guidance I can't think of anything on CSS that we could
02:10:38 think of anything on CSS that we could have used that would have been better albeit maybe was not ideal but it would have been better than what we came up with on the night and and and we
02:10:49 with on the night and and and we wouldn't be we could use it get information off it if it was updated but we wouldn't update it that would be would have been updated by Cu 800 mr.
02:11:06 would have been updated by Cu 800 mr. Pitkin thank you very much I've got no further questions for you and I just want to express my gratitude our gratitude to you for coming along and enduring my questions and helping us enormously with our investigations I'm
02:11:18 enormously with our investigations I'm very grateful thank you very much thank you yes thank you very much mr. Peck can you give us some very good information and we're grateful to you thank you thank you we'd like to go down
02:11:38 mr. chairman that time yes yes that concludes our business for the day and for the week yes and we begin again on the or leave on Monday with watch
02:11:49 the or leave on Monday with watch manager of Williams Glyn Williams and I in case you are going to ask me I see no reason to start before 10:00 o'clock I was going to assume that unless you've made an application and there is no okay
02:12:02 made an application and there is no okay there is no application say we shall start again at 10:00 o'clock please on Monday next week thank you very much [Music]
02:12:18 you