Watch Manager Glenn Williams gives evidence about managing FSG calls from the ground floor lobby, the 'wall' system he created to track calls, and the challenges of correlating rescue information.
00:00:41 right you're right missed Williams yeah carry on certainly thank you very much yes it yes thank you very much mr. chair mr. Williams thank you for coming back to us can I return to where we were just
00:00:54 to us can I return to where we were just before the lunch break which was looking at the the picture on the wall five seven seven four yeah now you do telling us about the words VA and what you put up there and the tick can I move on then
00:01:08 up there and the tick can I move on then just through the symbology this wall what what is ask me initially that was to deny floor but to be honest the the
00:01:19 to deny floor but to be honest the the amount of information I needed to communicate I decided to not include F anymore I did it I listed it for the first three but it was now you know it
00:01:36 first three but it was now you know it doesn't look you see in the sequence in which I'll read you know I appreciate that doesn't sit in nine but if you imagine that was my first view that was writing down and but it's interesting
00:01:48 writing down and but it's interesting actually because you didn't get an F F F F or for F H mm and then this helps me with the question I'm going to come to you later the F is next to 111 at the
00:01:59 you later the F is next to 111 at the bottom the last F is is 111 it looks like there isn't one next to 112 which might suggest that 112 is an insert later it was 112 was squeezed in between
00:02:11 later it was 112 was squeezed in between okay and from recollection i from recollection the first few numbers were from I think
00:02:24 the first few numbers were from I think that first lot of numbers there might be from the forward information board remember we spoke about the forward in the I she would not having many numbers I think that might have come from the
00:02:35 I think that might have come from the Ford information lower and I think Charlie Battersby's arrival with may have been the cross-check in the picture that you there's picture that you presented where I'm writing on the wall
00:02:46 presented where I'm writing on the wall and he's doing something he's pointing I would but it's pretty cloudy yes of course it is and we're going to look at
00:02:58 course it is and we're going to look at some of this details yeah in a moment but I'm interested in that that F sort of that's running out yes it it ties in with something I need to ask you about then looking across on the right looking
00:03:11 then looking across on the right looking at flat 205 you've got you /k what does that mean unknown right and does that
00:03:22 that mean unknown right and does that mean the number of persons was unknown yeah okay
00:03:26 yeah okay can you explain when some of the two in the submission list have got lines through them one three three and what and 19 what does that signify I may not
00:03:38 and 19 what does that signify I may not have put the lines through that right and it is that the whole is that the picture of the whole wall well if that's the best picture we've got of the whole okay
00:03:46 okay so so so
00:03:53 I do the cold put in a line through one that I thought was a duplicate
00:04:06 it's feasible that I didn't put the line through those right okay and then you've got some information on me the right hand side you've got against 1 1 5 1 times a 1 times K what's that one kid
00:04:26 times a 1 times K what's that one kid yeah
00:04:26 yeah and then you've got further information a little bit lower down if I could just ask you to look at 1 to 2 I think I want
00:04:37 ask you to look at 1 to 2 I think I want to scroll yes so wanted to near the bottom of this list you've got smoke log yes okay where would that information have come from do you think I would assume that that was
00:04:48 you think I would assume that that was attached to the controller with my platform okay right okay well we'll come back to that particular Flex later now the list on the left
00:05:01 now the list on the left hmm we can just look at the that hmm do you remember when that was started Wow no okay looking at the symbols on that
00:05:12 no okay looking at the symbols on that we built there are some bees and then I've got a crossing out yeah do you know what first of all what the BA is represent it may have initially
00:05:25 represent it may have initially indicated that bi had been committed to that area and then on further information been told that be a woman had not been committed
00:05:37 had not been committed so in crossed out ba okay but that's different from the tick next to the BA absolutely okay do you remember ever getting fresh information about a
00:05:49 getting fresh information about a particular flat which caused you to update this list you're gonna have to help me there's a lot of flats there okay I mean I'm is a general question do you remember getting just in general
00:06:01 you remember getting just in general terms fresh information about a particular which led you to update the list
00:06:09 there's no specific flat where I received general rice received updated information I think you'll see I made another notes on the right hand side so
00:06:23 another notes on the right hand side so additional information I was informed on was there's somebody on the 11th floor there was a person hanging from the was
00:06:40 there was a person hanging from the was that you're writing yep right okay and with that information
00:06:49 [Music]
00:06:54 yes and we've with that information that that required a follow-up information so you might I might have got a slip that said that somebody that there was somebody on the 11th bill which required
00:07:05 somebody on the 11th bill which required me communicating to the Bridget and saying do we know if there's somebody you with me how would you go about communicating with the bridgehead or just shout or just shout up to Paul what
00:07:17 just shout or just shout up to Paul what so I say you know this is this is something that's been brought to my attention hey do we know about this are we aware of this is this in it because you didn't come in in the form of an MSG
00:07:28 you didn't come in in the form of an MSG it might have come in just as a I can't be specific on each individual note but it might have come in that a firefighter came in and told me something so it's just somewhere where I could make a note
00:07:40 just somewhere where I could make a note and then communicate that and keep looking at the FSD to see if it was coming in there I was having to decipher a lot of information and then forward
00:07:51 a lot of information and then forward that information to prioritize weskit do you remember at what time at what stage in the in the night you wrote the information in that large box about the
00:08:02 information in that large box about the seventh night from the 11 floors I don't do you think sorry I'm sure the CCTV would assist in identifying times but do you know whether you wrote the
00:08:14 but do you know whether you wrote the box over the list which we've talked about earlier or whether you read the list over the box where it says 15 16 17 yes that was written over the box that was renewable
00:08:26 written over the box that was renewable yeah those notes those notes were taken so you can see above where it says
00:08:36 flames at window - 15 yes people on the roof Oh - 16 yes it was things that were coming in we had not been it was
00:08:47 coming in we had not been it was information that was coming through the foyer that may not have been 100% accurate so it was a between of it was a point in which I could reference the information and raise it by the by the
00:09:00 information and raise it by the by the Bridget nope but let's see if we can pursue that a bit further but just before I leave that you think that the list on the right came before sorry what
00:09:12 list on the right came before sorry what came after the information in the Box correct but now um I want to do a little show just to be clear the list listed on the right that's got the 94 attached to
00:09:24 the right that's got the 94 attached to it yeah yeah correct yes yes now I want to do a little exercise if I can just to see how far we get with some information now can I ask you first of all please to be shown lfb
00:09:37 you first of all please to be shown lfb quadruple zero one nine two to page 33
00:09:52 now this that just tell you what has been said about this um just to tell you what these are this is part or one of it a batch of of slips as you call them
00:10:06 a batch of of slips as you call them which were found in sync in cu7 what we've been told at the end of the incident and also that helps you terribly much Paul Sadler came to give
00:10:17 terribly much Paul Sadler came to give over to us last week and he said that this was a white slip and it is a white top copy or top version which he he'd he broked
00:10:27 broked on as the first of a batch that he did while he was working on the bonnet of a car under the cupboard area outside the tower and he wrote on it as you can see
00:10:41 tower and he wrote on it as you can see 205 12th floor and it says it says flames through window and someone's written over that Oh 213 and he told us
00:10:53 written over that Oh 213 and he told us that he got this by way of a radio message from c7 and he completes this as his first control information form that's why he's got number one at the top and that is how he did it he then
00:11:09 top and that is how he did it he then said he sent it to the bridgehead by a runner now my first question is but do you think you saw this is this the this is the control information form you
00:11:21 is the control information form you showed me this morning no it's like yes it is yes can I confirm it is is this the control information form you showed
00:11:32 the control information form you showed me this morning yeah it is yes within days as I said this morning though I think it's possible that this may have crossed paths yes if it the fact as I
00:11:46 crossed paths yes if it the fact as I said this morning 205 who looked familiar yeah and I guess the reason it looks familiar is because it's the top of my initial fire Survival Guide its list on the wall which would then correlate with the information that
00:11:58 then correlate with the information that was on the forward information board and I suspect that what happened there was the information I took from the infant forward information board may have been before my first one of eternia
00:12:09 have been before my first one of eternia and then when crew manager battered be returned with us with the piece of paper the envelope was such that the that ties
00:12:20 the envelope was such that the that ties in with the photograph that you showed me where I'm writing on the wall and he looks like he's doing something next to me right we tie in at least feasible he might have been cross-checking the numbers yes I'm so sorry I thought you
00:12:31 numbers yes I'm so sorry I thought you had the envelope but yes this is the one I showed you this morning but can I just think it back to I just note the fact that it says 12:12 floor on it yes note that and then go back if you
00:12:44 yes note that and then go back if you would please to the picture of the wall but 5 7 7 4 can you see that next to 205
00:12:55 but 5 7 7 4 can you see that next to 205 you've put something for the th next to it and then it looks as if it's been overwritten with 23 can you tell us
00:13:08 overwritten with 23 can you tell us what's underneath the 23 it looks like it's a 14th you think that's a 14
00:13:22 can you confirm that that was an over writing it looks like it was does that explain why you left a th there and didn't make didn't put our D I can't
00:13:34 didn't make didn't put our D I can't confirm I did that do you know you've might who else might have done that it was a long night and there was a lot of numbers going through I can't confirm that I did that okay is it possible that
00:13:46 that I did that okay is it possible that when you first wrote the floor number four flat zero five on the wall you took it from the white CIF on the on the right of the screen there and no twelfth
00:13:57 right of the screen there and no twelfth now I think it's possible that I took it from the forward information board right okay now if you look to the right we get back to the wall picture and look to the right of where we've got flat 205 no
00:14:14 right of where we've got flat 205 no sorry
00:14:15 sorry flat 205 you could probably do from I'm trying to capture the whole of the line 205 23rd UK and then to the right of
00:14:26 205 23rd UK and then to the right of that mr. Dawkins director if we could just expand the whole thing keep going across to the right keep going keep going stop right now you can see that to the right of the way
00:14:37 you can see that to the right of the way you put UK it says Fr what can you read that for us says that far at door - 43
00:14:48 that for us says that far at door - 43 flames at window - 15 people on roof or - 16 are you sure that it's - 43 plus we goodness to have that magnified
00:15:01 our 213 right yeah 213 yeah now where did you get the information that there was fire at door I would suggest I got
00:15:16 was fire at door I would suggest I got the information from the Floyd information board would that have got the right the forward information board and with the full information would have enough space on it to have details like fire at door if we go back to this to
00:15:31 fire at door if we go back to this to the white slid well let me just say that the yellow slip its page 34 if you look
00:15:43 the yellow slip its page 34 if you look at 1922
00:15:46 at 1922 page 34 this is the yellow copy of the white slip that mr. Sadler sent back to see you seven that's what he told us but do you know who wrote fire to door on
00:15:59 do you know who wrote fire to door on the yellow slip crossing through the words flames through window no but I mean it looks like the same handwriting to the person who's written gulp 34
00:16:10 to the person who's written gulp 34 Louise at the silver watch manager Paul said that yes fire to door yes do you remember seeing that document at all no is it possible that you got the
00:16:25 all no is it possible that you got the information that there was a fire at the door relating to flat 205 from this document this yeah there's a yellow
00:16:37 document this yeah there's a yellow document which was sent from cu7 to you by runner no I think as I said this is part of the trip the triple a
00:16:49 this is part of the trip the triple a copy of the control information form you showed me otherwise that I'd suggest that the information the I love them the wall came from the
00:17:00 the I love them the wall came from the forward information would I don't recourse the end this piece of if you then look at the white piece of paper again thirty three someone has deleted
00:17:14 again thirty three someone has deleted flames through window and put fire at the door I can see that do you know who wrote that no do you recall when roughly
00:17:28 wrote that no do you recall when roughly you over wrote the floor number with the twenty three that we see next to 205 I can't confirm the eyebrow wrote that number right now can I ask you to look
00:17:41 number right now can I ask you to look at page 35 and 36 these are the blue and yellow copies of a slip for flat 205 this time showing floor twenty-three
00:18:01 do you think or is it possible that this was the means by which the person working with you at the wall if it wasn't you received the correct floor
00:18:12 wasn't you received the correct floor number four flat 205 I think it's feasible that if that is the slip that I received from my runner
00:18:24 the slip that I received from my runner then it may have it may have encouraged me to review which floor 205 is on now
00:18:36 me to review which floor 205 is on now this these two slips will boot the yellow at 35 and the blue at 36 don't have they what I call a Sadler number on them a number at the top with a ring
00:18:47 them a number at the top with a ring rounded no do you recall whether slips that you got while writing on the wall came from the command unit direct or or
00:18:58 came from the command unit direct or or somewhere else now the slip song has received you know is on to the full under my understanding was that they were coming from the command unit did it was delegated to deal with the fire survive guidance
00:19:10 deal with the fire survive guidance going back to 33 did you ever do you recall ever seeing white slips with numbers on the very top of them such as
00:19:22 numbers on the very top of them such as we see here number one in a ring
00:19:29 I think that that is I don't recall seeing that I don't and to be entirely honest the fact that says pulls out may
00:19:40 honest the fact that says pulls out may FSG outside would make me think anything other than that he may have been nominated to be the person to collect information on the command unit outside
00:19:51 information on the command unit outside it doesn't it doesn't mean anything in terms of there's nothing within my training on fire Survival guidance so the way that I work at an incident that
00:20:03 the way that I work at an incident that would suggest that seeing that denotes anything out of the ordinary like putting all this together and without suggesting to you let me see if I can
00:20:14 suggesting to you let me see if I can put up possible a possible scenario to you that you wrote 205 12th floor because you saw the white slip of 33 and
00:20:26 because you saw the white slip of 33 and then you later corrected it because you saw the yellow or blue slips at 35 or 36 I think that if the CCTV footage were to be reviewed I would suggest that I have
00:20:39 be reviewed I would suggest that I have got the information from the old forward information board right I have transferred the information from the forward information board onto the wall and it may have been corrected later on
00:20:55 and it may have been corrected later on in the incident room I don't recall seeing that slip right could you just give me one second
00:21:16 can I then ask you to do a similar exercise with another flat and this is flat 74 now if you go to the white wall
00:21:29 flat 74 now if you go to the white wall on the left hand side just expand that we can get rid of lfp 19 22 33
00:21:45 looking at 74 which is the third one down that says to the right of it well helping the words people on roof 2:16
00:21:58 helping the words people on roof 2:16 how does that relate how does they heard of those words relate if they do two flats 74 on the 10th floor I'm not of the opinion that they do relate to that right do you know where you got that
00:22:09 right do you know where you got that detail from people on roof at 2:16 yeah as I said it was information that was coming in by a third party it wasn't it it wasn't if it was a fire survival
00:22:21 it wasn't if it was a fire survival guidance I would have put it down as far as survival guidance it was coming in as a third party that may be a message from a firefighter or message from just just verbal points of reference by people
00:22:36 verbal points of reference by people coming into the building there was a lot going on I mean I don't I think that we're focusing quite heavily here on on something but the the information relay going on at that moment in time was
00:22:50 going on at that moment in time was tremendous you had observations being made of what's going on outside people were coming in and talking about what they had seen in terms of the extent of
00:23:01 they had seen in terms of the extent of the fire spreading around the building of which I couldn't see because I was in the building I didn't I didn't move from this spot for the moment I was tasked with the job to the moment in which I
00:23:12 with the job to the moment in which I left the incident I did not commit myself to any other task my solely provided fire Survival Guide s information mm-hmm and I just want to just focus on them they may look like my
00:23:24 just focus on them they may look like my new CI but I just want to see how far we get okay can I just ask you to be shown lfb quadruple zero one nine six eight and I want you to look at page 47 first of all
00:23:37 now and this is in a different batch of forms but this has a three at the top in the ring which on the basis of full
00:23:48 the ring which on the basis of full Sadler's evidence last week would indicate that it was the third one he did for outside the building and it says flat 7410 floor people on roof time mark 216 and just a completeness canal - a
00:24:02 216 and just a completeness canal - a the next page page 48 which is the copy the yellow copy which he says he would have sent back to the command unit and
00:24:14 have sent back to the command unit and sent the white one to the bridgehead that as bad as his evidence the proofs have no expand on what the reason for Silvo means I am answering questions
00:24:26 Silvo means I am answering questions again now but I don't know what's the answer that's a first because if it is the reason consumer and she was the watch manager at the preacher yes that's right and I don't think I put this
00:24:37 right and I don't think I put this document to him and say it wouldn't be fair to me to speculate on answers to questions icon and the whether I put or not but what I cannot ask you about is that the white copy let's work with the
00:24:48 that the white copy let's work with the white copy and 47 it carries a time mark of 216 and it says people on roof the yellow copy I just showed you so it says the same you want to get back to it we
00:25:00 the same you want to get back to it we can we can look at it does that help you get back to the wall identify the source of the information about the people on the roof which we see against flat 70
00:25:11 the roof which we see against flat 70 floor for 10th floor 216
00:25:21 yeah yeah possibly I mean it's not from what I recall but it would make sense certainly as we can't argue it what what I'm being shown no and if it if all said
00:25:32 I'm being shown no and if it if all said was evidences is correct that the general way he was working was if he would number his FSG white slips with a number at the top and sent them to the bridgehead does that mean that you would
00:25:44 bridgehead does that mean that you would have got this document and inscribed that information on the wall at that time in relation to this flat no it means that I think that that has gone to the bridgehead where Louisa de Silva has
00:25:56 the bridgehead where Louisa de Silva has transcribed that information onto the forward information board right and I have taken that information and transferred it onto my wall but what
00:26:07 transferred it onto my wall but what sort of time do you think but let me offer the different way and do you think you wrote people on roof at 216 after
00:26:19 you wrote people on roof at 216 after you've completed that long list in the middle or while you were doing it I would imagine I would think by the way that I work I probably wrote it as I was
00:26:32 that I work I probably wrote it as I was what oh it's what we're scribing across okay right now that there's like difficulty we have at the moment is that we have looked at the CCTV looking for an fib at the ground floor and the
00:26:44 an fib at the ground floor and the earliest we can see the fib coming down to the ground floor was after the bridgehead had moved down and the earliest picture we have it is a 312 where it is lying on the wall next to
00:26:55 where it is lying on the wall next to you we can look at the picture we need to again my question would be whether Charlie Battersby was asked if he
00:27:07 Charlie Battersby was asked if he collected the information I'd be in his handbook or right on that slip but we don't have a picture of the 40th of you oh if you've got pictures of old
00:27:18 oh if you've got pictures of old information would we picture that the forward information below only after 312 nothing before before that time I believe the information would still be on the information would rights okay let me see
00:27:36 information would rights okay let me see if I can do one more can you please be shown lfb 1922 page one
00:27:52 now this is a yellow slip flat 161 19th floor 10 people and it's got a Sadler 11 at the top which indicates on the basis of his evidence that he wrote that okay
00:28:03 of his evidence that he wrote that okay do you again do you recognize I do recall writing ten people you do you recall writers and people I think if we look at the wall like I do recall writing down yes in the list because I
00:28:17 writing down yes in the list because I was quite shocked by that there'd be ten people in a flat okay so let's look at the wall and see if we can just pin that down you go back to the wall and then if you could enlarge that please is it at
00:28:30 you could enlarge that please is it at the bottom I think it's at the bottom yes
00:28:36 [Music]
00:28:41 well flat one six one is in the middle list halfway down yeah but it doesn't have ten people ten people yeah no no then first of all do you know why that
00:28:52 then first of all do you know why that would be like that okay but it does appear if we can just enlarge the picture and go to the right-hand list
00:29:11 if you look three entries up from the bottom it shows 19 160 110 so that's where that appears on the wall it's the
00:29:22 where that appears on the wall it's the only place it does up here on the wall can you help with that do you know where you got that information from given where it is on the wall and given that it appears on this yellow slip that
00:29:36 it appears on this yellow slip that would suggest I received that information right a bit later on in the evening okay so that would that would suggest that you did get at least some of pull Sadler's slips coming into the building and then inscribed the detail
00:29:47 building and then inscribed the detail on the wall it would suggest that okay it's not the only I mean any basically what's very difficult for me here is that I'm getting snippets of information
00:29:58 that I'm getting snippets of information that was been presented obviously there was a lot yet of information and there were duplicates yes so it's feasible but I might have written up 161 as a
00:30:09 I might have written up 161 as a duplicate
00:30:10 duplicate I wasn't aware that we said there was collating information outside I believe that the fire survival guidance was coming directly from a command unit who were receiving the calls from the people that required required rescuing so the I
00:30:25 that required required rescuing so the I don't recall see in the first lit this lit honestly looking at the little number 11 at the top that wouldn't that would have scream out to anything to me
00:30:37 would have scream out to anything to me no no place feasible I could have got that slit and written it down do you remember getting slips with numbers it was all in a circle I mean in the most respectful way you can see how many
00:30:49 respectful way you can see how many slips I've dealt with that night so you'll understand that my recollection of individual slips is really impossible no I appreciate that I'm asking you a
00:31:00 no I appreciate that I'm asking you a generic don't like that we'll call it identical day can I then show you the document I I did put to you this morning which was the Sadler envelope which is M et triple zero one six nine six seven
00:31:17 now we looked at this before and I think I asked you already do you remember writing any other contents of this list on the wall and I said we'd come back to it now let's see if we can just push
00:31:28 it now let's see if we can just push that a little bit further I'm sorry to ask you about that's it see bitty details yeah this is what I do it doesn't contain perhaps we should compare it with the wall actually Paul
00:31:40 compare it with the wall actually Paul can we have that up that you will seal their lot of the glance that the wall has got 74 on it flat 74 this list does
00:31:52 has got 74 on it flat 74 this list does not yeah and it doesn't have 95 either which is on the wall but not on them on the list yeah or 1 2 - yeah which is on the wall but not on the list
00:32:03 the wall but not on the list um now so we can discount those but can I just ask you to look at the numbers from 111 on your wall - 115 133 19 182
00:32:19 from 111 on your wall - 115 133 19 182 and 1 6 1 yeah though those all appear to run in as it were envelope order you see because it on the end of that cassock same it's the same sequence of flesh okay do you recall transcribing or
00:32:34 flesh okay do you recall transcribing or transposing slightly some of the numbers from from a written or pre-written list to the wall
00:32:48 if I recall having the information from the forward information board that was at the bridgehead of my attendance right and I recall having asked him for that
00:33:02 and I recall having asked him for that information so I could put it on the wall because I wanted to ensure that we did not have a duplicate duplicate and to ensure that we didn't have a miscommunication as to where we were
00:33:13 miscommunication as to where we were going to allocate our resources to carry out fsj the fact that this piece of evidence on the right has got the silver written on it would suggest to me that the Silvo is the person who received
00:33:25 the Silvo is the person who received this information and if if as referred to this morning was that it was being done by the means of handheld communication then that would suggest to me that the silver is the person that
00:33:36 me that the silver is the person that received this information and we laid it up on to the forward information board if my memory is clouded and the forward information board didn't arrive at the
00:33:48 information board didn't arrive at the ground floor until three o'clock then I would suggest that that information from the forward information board would have been collated prior to that and relayed
00:34:01 been collated prior to that and relayed onto the wall I don't recall seeing this piece of paper No and now the difficulty of course we've got is cert watch
00:34:13 of course we've got is cert watch management of silver has no recollection of seeing the envelope or all the lists as you call it so and I think to ask you about it you'll appreciate that but the sequence there it is as we can see the
00:34:26 sequence there it is as we can see the same which is why I was asking you what we remember do you did you did you mention that you had a picture of the forward information board it's--we o'clock I have a picture of full information
00:34:39 I'm afraid we we're still looking at it but hasn't been disclosed yet so I can't show it to you but what I was giving you an assurance of is that on our review of the CCTV footage down to at three
00:34:51 the CCTV footage down to at three o'clock there's no footage we've seen of the forward information board in the lobby on the wall next to the wall where you were standing then then my then my memory must be clouded but the
00:35:04 memory must be clouded but the information that came from that forward information board was collated and it did come downstairs to me it in general terms let me ask you when you did the
00:35:21 terms let me ask you when you did the list well we'll come to the list on the left let me take the question in order just go back to the Sadler envelope we've done I think we've probably done what we can with it
00:35:32 what we can with it to that extent gee look at 1 6 1 on the envelope it goes to 14 1 6 1 to 14 it's
00:35:43 envelope it goes to 14 1 6 1 to 14 it's got no flat 1 6 4 on it at all when you go to your list on the wall it has 1 6 1 and then 1 6 4 and then 14 and next one
00:36:01 and then 1 6 4 and then 14 and next one 64 you put 19 1 1 person but are you able to explain that sequence
00:36:15 what because it doesn't line up with this piece of paper well partly that and also well I don't I don't to lead you on this and I'd like to get your
00:36:26 this and I'd like to get your recollection but it looks from the list well you tell me do you recall how the list from one six one one six four and
00:36:37 list from one six one one six four and 14 kept came to be collated having received control information forms from from the command unit via my runner
00:36:49 from the command unit via my runner collate and fire survival guidance right motion well let me just let me just need you a little bit on this in fact and and resist any attempt to be led misled by me please
00:36:59 me please it looks from the list on the wall that one sixty one was followed by fourteen and the new over wrote or inserted 164 afterwards just looking at the way the writing works might that be right it's
00:37:11 writing works might that be right it's possible as to the 164 can now then ask you to look at LF b1 1922 at page two
00:37:31 and that says what 1/6 for 19 one person and it has no Sadler number at the top
00:37:47 does that help you with your recollection as to as to the source of the information about 164 yes it does
00:37:59 the information about 164 yes it does help me because it's another control information slip right not dissimilar to the hundreds though right okay and so
00:38:10 the hundreds though right okay and so that would have come directly from the command unit so far as you know yes right
00:38:21 turning back to the the Sadler envelope if I can
00:38:46 that's them I'm just comparing the two again which is the best slide you've got what you've got 195 as the third entry down or on
00:38:58 got 195 as the third entry down or on the what I call the envelope the list 22nd floor but there's no entry for 195 on the wall do you know why that might
00:39:12 on the wall do you know why that might be it might be because I didn't collect the information from this piece of paper right
00:39:25 looking at flat 204 which says 23rd floor which is correct if you look at the wall information its to a4 appears at the bottom of your middle list with
00:39:37 at the bottom of your middle list with 21 next to it yeah do you know why yeah in that yeah there was great confusion from the be a crew that went up there they they they had no they had no I
00:39:52 they they they had no they had no I can't remember which food is about it's about from the 12th upwards from their connection it might have been more but they didn't they they would completely
00:40:04 they didn't they they would completely disorientated they were reports back that the floor numbers have been written in crayon on the wall
00:40:10 the wall I was suspect they tiny laugh right there was a great disorientation amongst the Bailey crews coming out they were exhausted though they struggled to
00:40:22 exhausted though they struggled to articulate what they've done right they were showing the signs of heat stress and often the people that the the people
00:40:34 and often the people that the the people that had been bought out by the PA crews weren't necessarily were were they didn't bring them out individually they were manhandled it down the stairs they were rallied
00:40:47 it down the stairs they were rallied down the stairs so the BI said the casualty would be rescued very quickly long before the VI crew actually made it way out of that about the stairwell so
00:40:58 way out of that about the stairwell so to correlate where people were coming from and to understand where the BA crews had been as I said before the break became in a very short space of
00:41:10 break became in a very short space of time very difficult to understand so the correction of the 21st would have been based on information I was told by the Baker and also just as point of
00:41:21 Baker and also just as point of reference the question you asked me about having a floor plan this would have been it would have been very helpful to have had a floor at this stage because then I would have
00:41:32 at this stage because then I would have known how many floors there were but I didn't know how many floors were in the tower yes absolutely understand
00:41:47 did the crews returning actually say anything to you about difficulties in numbering flaws as they went up the tower because of problems with the numbering on the floors of flaws in the
00:42:00 numbering on the floors of flaws in the stairwell they articulated in language to prefer not to use how confusing it was right in there and disorientated again right that was that was a do any specific instances come to mind there
00:42:14 specific instances come to mind there was a fairly regular it was a fairly regular point of reference okay can I ask you then to look at the left hand list let's move on to that on the white
00:42:28 list let's move on to that on the white wall we can get rid of the envelope and look at the white wall now did you start at the top do stop that left hand list
00:42:40 at the top do stop that left hand list at the top okay yeah okay what made you start a new list the sheer volume of FSG do you know the timing when you started that new list no I did
00:42:51 when you started that new list no I did but anything changed in terms of environment or position of the bridgehead or anything like that I can't remember if the I think oh I think when
00:43:04 remember if the I think oh I think when I was interviewing I submitted a timeline as point of reference I don't recall if that list coincides with the
00:43:16 recall if that list coincides with the bringing down at the bridgehead there were several points that took place through the night right it was significant okay the list I started
00:43:27 significant okay the list I started writing what I do know is that it was around the same time that people endure doing me I think I've got down to about I don't know maybe to a 3 an actual fact
00:43:39 I don't know maybe to a 3 an actual fact the think of handwriting changes you see where it says 1 7 3 22 P 2 P yes that's not my handwriting
00:43:49 right okay okay but let's see how far we go can I ask you just to look at the first two entries which is one two three and one three three and next to them in
00:44:02 and one three three and next to them in a right-hand column you've got I think that says line is this right line dead line dead yeah is that your handwriting yeah yeah and can I now ask you then to look please at
00:44:14 can I now ask you then to look please at lfb quadruple zero one nine six eight page 44 and 45
00:44:28 let's keep let's keep the white wall up on the left hand of the screen and put that's it now these are control information forms they don't have a
00:44:40 information forms they don't have a Sadler number on them flat 1 2 3 & 1 1 3 with the floor numbers and they say lying gone dead time updated 321 and
00:44:53 lying gone dead time updated 321 and then call from Cu and see on the white now just looking at those does this help you remember where you got the
00:45:04 you remember where you got the information that you wrote on the wall at the start of that list from I would have got it from a slip right ok so does the tiling 321 help us identify the time
00:45:15 the tiling 321 help us identify the time at which you started that left hand list I think he said I think that it's fairly accurate
00:45:21 accurate it wouldn't be exact because obviously there's a time delay in which we received the FSG beginning it's a very accurate time thank you that's that's up and from other people's evidence well you try this do you
00:45:34 evidence well you try this do you remember where the bridge head was at this time in 321 also or a few minutes after 321
00:45:48 initially I thought the bridgehead had been brought down to ground floor at 3:45 gradually it might have been before
00:46:00 3:45 gradually it might have been before that it's feasible that it could have been on the ground floor by that time yes I was going to ask you about that this is page 13 of your statement yeah where you say it approximately 3:45 a.m.
00:46:13 where you say it approximately 3:45 a.m. the bridge it was moved down to the ground floor we've heard evidence from a number of witnesses so far let's say that the bridgehead has moved down at after or just shortly after 308 yeah
00:46:25 after or just shortly after 308 yeah and that's been linked to some photographic evidence yeah would you disagree with Rihanna as we've been going through the evidence this morning it has occurred to me that what I've written in my statement occurred in in
00:46:38 written in my statement occurred in in much shorter space of time so it is highly possible that a 308 is okay so if I was to ask you did this second list the left-hand list start after the move
00:46:50 the left-hand list start after the move of the bridgehead to the ground floor I think it's feasible to say it did okay now looking at one two three black one two three just it gets a bit but help me
00:47:05 two three just it gets a bit but help me with the line on the left which seems to link it looks like a bracket between one one three and one two three do you see under the words be a problem that the letters be a cross through you've got a like a big L yeah what is that that is
00:47:17 like a big L yeah what is that that is that bi you think committed to one two three on the 15th I see not one one three no okay so that's an arrow is it right I see and then it gets a line through it so can you account just
00:47:29 through it so can you account just explain to me again and you did explain this morning that the means of the BA wasn't actually committed yes is that right this so when you write okay how long after writing one two three
00:47:41 how long after writing one two three fifteen line dead do you think I know it's a guess or estimate perhaps at this distance of time do you did you write ba with a line through it
00:47:53 with a line through it I don't know I think you can probably timestamp it because there will be CCTV footage of me standing with good manager
00:48:07 footage of me standing with good manager Welch looking at the wall and that will tie in with the information we received
00:48:18 tie in with the information we received to say that we won't commit and cruise right well let's see if we can above a certain floor so it all kind of just tie in together there okay look this is a this is an attempt at something let's
00:48:30 this is an attempt at something let's see if this works bear with me Oh could you please be showing inq to 5/3
00:48:38 now this is we could see you I think yeah pointing at the wall sorry to lead you on this but anything it's probably obvious by now yeah the two white helmets yeah and this time mark is an
00:48:49 helmets yeah and this time mark is an adjusted time work of three sixteen twenty nine yeah do you know who they were
00:48:55 were yeah who so I'm the person without the helmet to the left of these for what sir to the right looks like it's I would think it was staged imagine wolfing Dean
00:49:06 think it was staged imagine wolfing Dean right three managers Damien the gate okay
00:49:13 and that that in my statement I state that the bridgehead was brought down to the ground floor and I advised the crews to set up the entry control boards
00:49:25 to set up the entry control boards opposite me yes so that we can correlate the information and on the left hand corner you can see the major control boards and you can also see the VA UK
00:49:37 boards and you can also see the VA UK the firefighters wearing VA yes we can so we're gonna come back to this and do it shortly that I just wanted to get the time-lock for that can I just get back to the wall then I asked you that about
00:49:50 to the wall then I asked you that about the VA with a cross through it just breaking it down even further one two three you have a narrow to be a it was the sequence of events that you
00:50:01 it was the sequence of events that you wrote BA and then later crossed it through well would you have written BA and then cross it through straightaway
00:50:12 and then cross it through straightaway no I know it would have been I would have been under the assertive been going through my process that I've established it for Watson the I can I transfer the information to him he passes it on and
00:50:24 information to him he passes it on and then I said I would I must have received information to say we didn't commit VA to that floor or flap right and then I
00:50:35 to that floor or flap right and then I can't put a cross for it okay right I see so it's the same assumption as before BA because you see them deployment well you see what Paul wasn't disappearing with them
00:50:46 disappearing with them yeah the piece of paper exactly and then you get information back that there was no deployed yeah now that was we had clear line of communication so if ba who's not committed here for me right
00:50:58 who's not committed here for me right okay now there are no ticks on this list no why is that
00:51:07 [Music]
00:51:12 because
00:51:15 we were struggling to progress
00:51:19 right
00:51:22 can then get back to the crossing out of being sorry before we leave that what what's the relevance of the right-hand column before we won you've got this on
00:51:35 column before we won you've got this on the screen there are four columns here on the PA collars well the VA appears in
00:51:47 on the PA collars well the VA appears in a number of places in that right-hand column as do ticks I'm just wondering that's the middle list mr. Chairman I think we had evidences so that's the other side of the middle that's that's the far left-hand side of the middle
00:51:58 the far left-hand side of the middle list right my taralin and I was just asking about the weather honey no it's right there is it can I can I just think ask you about the crossing out with love
00:52:11 ask you about the crossing out with love ba what information led you to cross that out
00:52:17 that out take one take one two three four as an example
00:52:21 example we have it would be articulated verbally we haven't committed the crew - well we're not committing above such and such law okay let's just break this down then
00:52:34 law okay let's just break this down then do you remember being told by anybody that the bridge head was not committing above the 15th floor at any time I'd
00:52:45 above the 15th floor at any time I'd have to refer to my statement I can't remember it then ad which flew it was but yes we were informed that we wouldn't be committing above a certain from the right okay well we'll come back
00:52:58 from the right okay well we'll come back to that above ten below ten shortly when you've got the information that you weren't deploying a be a crew to flat one two three as you had thought we were
00:53:10 one two three as you had thought we were going to did you communicate that fact to the command unit
00:53:21 I had space magic whorfin don't if if by which time I believe station Asia Wolfen
00:53:33 which time I believe station Asia Wolfen that would have been with me by the time as we've seen from the picture so my earlier recollection that he joined me halfway down the list is clearly that he was there when we came to the ground floor as we've seen him when I was
00:53:47 floor as we've seen him when I was informed that we won't commit in above a certain floor I actually heard it through him and he was in communication with the command unit right
00:54:00 with the command unit right did you hear him say to the command unit words to the effect all we're not sending a BA - one two three no no it was very noisy in that now
00:54:13 no no it was very noisy in that now halfway down that left hand list we've got two flat 203 5a to see is that still your writing or have we switched to Pete
00:54:27 your writing or have we switched to Pete Wilson's writing I think that might have been Pete wolf and ins right can you just help us where the where you're writing stops going down the list of his starts
00:54:41 well it looks like wicked it doesn't look like I can tell you we were taking terms to write things up on that side so he would like something I would also be writing something up and I'm
00:54:55 writing something up and I'm communicating between ourselves right he initially it looks like I mean because I
00:55:09 initially it looks like I mean because I was still he continued to light up while I try to ascertain and or gather information from people coming out okay about where they've come from and I
00:55:20 about where they've come from and I think while I was trying to gather information from both the a Cruz firefighters and survivors he continued to taken in by spot but you
00:55:31 he continued to taken in by spot but you if you I'm sure he'll clarify that okay well it just helps with this can you tell us which numbers are your handwriting in which of his do you think I think you said one one three and one
00:55:42 I think you said one one three and one two three of yours yeah they're definitely mine it looks like 201 183 mmm similar to my line
00:55:55 right
00:56:02 well you're thinking the best position to tell us I am but it's a very it's a really specific point in evening that
00:56:14 really specific point in evening that you asking me to to tell you about this it's a bit I can assure you that I wrote this a guess 1 to 2 and the 15 or don't
00:56:28 this a guess 1 to 2 and the 15 or don't guess I mean if you I think you've got a recollection as good a recollection as you have but but maybe I don't think unfair asking you the question if you don't I mean we're focusing on there are
00:56:39 don't I mean we're focusing on there are a lot of things going on let me but forgive me if you would if I just to pursue this a little bit more to see if it see if it helps if you could please be shown lfb 120 to page 30
00:56:56 yep this is a white slip flat 203 floor 23 which says five adults and two kids
00:57:09 23 which says five adults and two kids and this is time marked at 319 yeah from Cu list yeah is this and I won't ask you whether you recognize it specifically but do you remember seeing
00:57:21 specifically but do you remember seeing a document like this yeah I received many documents like this during the knife can you help me what does from Cu list mean do you do you know I would
00:57:33 list mean do you do you know I would assume well I don't know no looking at it I think it would be a reinforcement that it's coming from the list that the Cu has collated why the FHD procedure right okay does it it's this flat 2 flat
00:57:52 right okay does it it's this flat 2 flat 2 O 3 if I can just get back to the wall again please pull is only in the left hand list we only have flat 2 a 3 in the left hand most list yeah and looking at
00:58:04 left hand most list yeah and looking at that and looking at the time mark at page 30 which we've got on the other side of the page there's what does that tell us about when you or Pete Wilson and got the NDF SG information about
00:58:16 and got the NDF SG information about flat 203
00:58:27 so you asking me you asking me to clarify when we wrote up to a3 and basically what I'm asking you a roundabout way is does the document of page 30 on the right tell us what the timing of when you rate to a 3d wall
00:58:39 timing of when you rate to a 3d wall Pete Wolfington wrote to F 283 23 on the wall no it tells you an approximate time that that was taken by the command unit and I would suggest that that the time
00:58:52 and I would suggest that that the time it takes to come from the command unit to the entrance of the foyer yes would be in an approximate time that we wrote up 203 okay you're 23 right can
00:59:03 we wrote up 203 okay you're 23 right can I just ask you then I'm sorry to jump around but could get to go back to the to the wall middle list yep 201 sorry to
00:59:17 to the wall middle list yep 201 sorry to a4 at the bottom 284 yeah the bottom you've got 21 we looked at that earlier can I ask you at the same time to be
00:59:28 can I ask you at the same time to be shown NFB 1922 page 31
00:59:36 now here we've got two Oh 421 floor yeah and then someone has written all the control information for me don't know if
00:59:47 control information for me don't know if people in this info came from watch manager de Silva can you help us with that
00:59:52 that do you know who would have written that no do you remember see oh sorry
01:00:13 I mean iced did did you ask for I said silver this
01:00:22 denials curve it you just help me is that your handwriting no right do you remember seeing any white slip which said don't know if people in the center came from much manner to the silver I can't recall
01:00:37 manner to the silver I can't recall seeing this but what I would say is that
01:00:43 it might be that the command unit received information via what amounted to silver right right now when you've
01:00:56 to silver right right now when you've got these pieces of paper by which I've made lists the slips what did you do with them we could we've been through the wall exercise one or two more to
01:01:07 the wall exercise one or two more to look at shortly but what did you do with the pieces of paper I kept them where did you keep them in my pocket of your new uniform that's not times you've sent accurate I
01:01:19 that's not times you've sent accurate I held them so that I can flick through them and then when the bunch got too much I had to put them and I think I might have put them put them in my
01:01:33 might have put them put them in my pocket
01:01:33 pocket so we didn't get wet I was holding them for most of the night right ever ever thicker chief really soccer to flick through them yeah because obviously and
01:01:44 through them yeah because obviously and there were duplicates I got to purpose throughout the night I can tell you specifically which which numbers but I had people come to me with notebooks
01:01:55 had people come to me with notebooks with numbers on which they required cross-check in it it was not it was a it was very very busy
01:02:06 was very very busy did you send any of these slips to the bridgehead do you think no because my purpose there was to coordinate the FSG from that point and communicate that to
01:02:18 from that point and communicate that to the bridge oak because the bridge ed had needed had moved by the time we got to the ground floor I think it moved one more time before that up yes it's a third floor the the purpose
01:02:30 yes it's a third floor the the purpose of me being at the set that that's single location as I understood it was so that I could manage all of the FSG coming in can I ask you to be shown lfb
01:02:43 coming in can I ask you to be shown lfb quadruple zero one nine five one and
01:02:49 indeed one nine six one actually we could have both up at the same time I'll tell you what these are when we get next page up it's it's self-evident
01:03:04 next page up it's it's self-evident these are white controlled forms for those flats watch manager O'Keeffe said that he found these in his well he had
01:03:15 that he found these in his well he had these in his tunic at the bridgehead at the end of the night so he got he definitely got these I don't know
01:03:26 definitely got these I don't know whether he got others it's another question do you know can you explain how he got these yes because around four o'clock I noticed a runner go straight that directly to the bridge head which
01:03:39 that directly to the bridge head which had by this time had been located at the bottom of the stairs behind the glass wall and I went and I challenged why they were receiving fire survival
01:03:50 they were receiving fire survival guidance rather than it coming to me right okay we'll come to that because that's a good in your statement you deal with them anyone to ask you about that but that you say essentially you think it missed you out and went to the bridge
01:04:02 it missed you out and went to the bridge head direct I do yet okay and can I then ask you to just about a couple of other documents can I ask you to be shown NFP quadruple zero one nine to nine mr. chairman I'm getting indications from
01:04:13 chairman I'm getting indications from elsewhere in the room that the as might need a break well I was good to suggest we'd have a break very soon waiting's you've got to a natural point well I'm about to write than a natural point but for the indications in the room yeah I'm past
01:04:25 indications in the room yeah I'm past the witness could he go off another five years right these are also documents which watch manager O'Keefe told us that he had found in his tunic or a suit at
01:04:38 he had found in his tunic or a suit at least at the end of the night yeah and you mentioned a minute ago slit little slips yeah no notepads are these not being specific about it but are these
01:04:49 being specific about it but are these the sorts of note pad slips that you saw so these are these are timed at 4:10 405 410 420 by at that time in the night we
01:05:01 410 420 by at that time in the night we had a we had a new approach to how we were going to transfer some information right and we did this so Pete Wolfman
01:05:15 right and we did this so Pete Wolfman took the lead on it and we realized that we'd witnessed the information goes directly to the bridges and actually
01:05:26 directly to the bridges and actually when a quote when I approached the bridge head I could clearly see that they have been taken for survival guidance themselves within that area hence the reason I challenged it these
01:05:41 hence the reason I challenged it these lips
01:05:41 lips relate to the way in which we the process that we went through once we revamped the way that we were going to approach it and that was that
01:05:53 going to approach it and that was that we sickles we went in a sequence starting from the ground and we worked the way up and by which time Pete wolf ndon had a good
01:06:04 which time Pete wolf ndon had a good line of communication with the command unit I scribed on to the wall and these were noted down by Paul Watson and
01:06:18 were noted down by Paul Watson and handed through so these would relate to I think though hand by before so I'm not hundred percent on that but this information this is the sequence in which we went through it because you can
01:06:30 which we went through it because you can see all the numbers are like they're in there in numerical order d do you remember seeing or receiving these
01:06:42 remember seeing or receiving these little slips into your hands while you are in scribing at the wall now these weren't these weren't in my direction these was out to the bridgehead rights to Brian are key directly from where I
01:06:55 to Brian are key directly from where I put I believe vehicle Watson or people often done okay not by me well then I was we were collating information too
01:07:09 at some point in the night a group manager came in who is coordinating first of all violence externally right I
01:07:20 first of all violence externally right I think his name might have been told oh I don't know Tom good or good right I don't know 100%
01:07:30 whatever the conversation took place between people Ferdinand him resulted in a clear line of communication for the FSG First Communion
01:07:41 FSG First Communion does the name station manager Egon mean anything to you Daniel Egon no right do you remember what roughly what time this new system started yeah it was it
01:07:54 this new system started yeah it was it was around 4 o'clock rough for a floor yeah right maybe a bit before but certainly not not that much after I mean the first ones
01:08:05 that much after I mean the first ones timed at 4:00 or 5:00 and from that time do you remember whether there was direct radio contact between you or Pete Wolfington and the command unit I
01:08:18 Wolfington and the command unit I believe that people would have had contact with the command unit right okay
01:08:29 and I'm not I don't know if that was via an air wave radio or what via the handheld radio I'm unsure how he how he was communicated by Roger do you think
01:08:44 was communicated by Roger do you think that might be cutting wants to be moved yep we're gonna have a breakdown mystery until 25 past three so ten minutes brush this off
01:08:54 this off don't talk to him about law evidence if you're baking thank you
01:09:05 325 twenties
01:09:15 you
01:19:13 mr. German right yes thank you
01:19:40 [Music]
01:19:50 Oh Miss Williams having to carry on thank you yes I'm going to come to the question of the bridge head movements she but before I do what you just bear with me I'm going to see if we can piece
01:20:02 with me I'm going to see if we can piece together a couple more sources of information from the white wall if we certainly come I please have the white wall up Paul thanks now I want to look
01:20:16 wall up Paul thanks now I want to look at the right at the left hand list and about Oh two thirds of the way down three quarters of the way down you see what looks like one two two
01:20:28 what looks like one two two sorry one one two I'm so sorry 1 1 2 14
01:20:36 1 there 1 1 2 14 8 P yes do you do you
01:20:47 1 there 1 1 2 14 8 P yes do you do you recall you all people from in writing 8 persons for a fire survival guidance message for flat 1 1 2 on the 14th floor
01:21:03 can you expand it will just help my memory if I can see the one below it the core right in the eight persons so
01:21:14 core right in the eight persons so people further may have done it okay right well maybe we don't get very far do you have a recollection of any firefighters telling you but eight people were left in a flat on the 14th
01:21:28 people were left in a flat on the 14th floor
01:21:37 No
01:21:44 but don't recalled eight people being left on the 14th floor if I do recall login somewhere on that wall the ten
01:21:56 login somewhere on that wall the ten people right let's go to the middle : let's just chase that up that's that that's a point of reference for me right
01:22:07 that's a point of reference for me right okay let's see how we go with that then looking at the middle list
01:22:18 sorry we've got
01:22:27 if we've got the middle column but where you can see
01:22:41 forgive me because it looked like those watching at the very bottom is that the whole picture I'm not sure that is the whole pictures the truth that's the
01:22:52 whole pictures the truth that's the problem
01:22:53 problem then we've got well let's try I believe I believe at the bottom I look I have a strong like I have a recollection of recording ten people in a flap and it
01:23:07 recording ten people in a flap and it would be it throughout the evening it became apparent that there was movement within the tower so residents were moving up and down the tower but if we
01:23:22 moving up and down the tower but if we try the right hand list that maybe them getting the right the right hand this there is a ten there next to one six one on the 19th floor no no the right hand list
01:23:33 no no the right hand list sorry so this is the listen
01:23:42 oh okay don't try to admit right if you can go just to look about that says 19 161 is that the 10 that you're referring to there was writing at
01:23:58 you're referring to there was writing at the bottom of the wall sir right okay then let's look at met triple zero one five eight one five if we can please
01:24:09 five eight one five if we can please pull that's the picture of the entirety of the wall that's what we started 192 2310 three kids right one line you say
01:24:25 2310 three kids right one line you say one nine two one nine three one nine three I think that is 192 make 102 so I 23 okay three kids ten three kids and that surprised me because tell me yeah
01:24:38 that surprised me because tell me yeah tell me what you remember of that but just because if I listed 192 previously from the wall are you sure that's one
01:24:49 from the wall are you sure that's one line two or not if not one line three I
01:24:54 remember I remember being surprised by the number right um do you do you have a recollection of how the information about 10 came to you by the form of a
01:25:05 about 10 came to you by the form of a fire survival guidance for right then can I ask you to look at lfb 1922 I think it's page 20
01:25:27 ya know
01:25:34 if it's confused by the fact that there's another similar my survival form but this says 193 22nd floor 10 people
01:25:45 but this says 193 22nd floor 10 people inside source unknown via see you do you remember seeing that Ward remember do you remember there's this trigger a recollection as to how you got the information about 10 persons and it sounds yes right I I don't I don't
01:25:57 sounds yes right I I don't I don't remember specifically this the this slip this fall but yes it does during recollection and ok so you think you got it through that before I leave
01:26:10 you got it through that before I leave this topic about how the 10p came to you do you remember speaking to anybody who came past you who was rescued or who'd come down saying that 10 people were
01:26:21 come down saying that 10 people were left in flat 1 9 3 9 right
01:26:31 can I just go back then to the left hand column and back to flap what looks like 1 1 2 and the 8 persons do you think that was people from who wrote that up
01:26:42 that was people from who wrote that up there as you told us do you know from your own recollection or knowledge what what you would have done with that information it would you have by which I
01:26:53 information it would you have by which I mean would you have asked somebody to deploy further crews to that floor and flat
01:27:02 flat I believe that when I was callate when this information is being collected it would have been around the same time
01:27:19 maybe just prior to the time in which we changed the way we were going to cost check the said the the the the details
01:27:32 check the said the the the the details of the FSG right there was it was around the same time with some confusion around the fi Survival Guide it's going straight to the bridgehead on the ground floor okay so the information being collected we
01:27:48 so the information being collected we had we had to get some clarity around it there seemed to be some confusion yeah sticking with the okay I see how how
01:28:00 sticking with the okay I see how how would the bridgehead know whether to how to redeploy a crew to get to cut to rescue eight people so how would the bridgehead know that they had to deploy
01:28:11 bridgehead know that they had to deploy firefighters to rescue eight people unless you had sent an information about information to them I would have continued to be sending the information okay I never stopped sending the information all night everything every
01:28:24 information all night everything every information every piece of information I got I communicated right to the bridgehead okay now just going back and I'm sorry to Bob back and forth to go to
01:28:36 I'm sorry to Bob back and forth to go to the wall again the big the big wall yeah we need the big picture of it this time which was some one five eight one five the DaSilva exhibit
01:29:00 and this is the this is the whole picture looking at 1/9 you've got 1 9 3 22 10 P in the middle column there
01:29:13 22 10 P in the middle column there you've also got in the left-hand column
01:29:20 192
01:29:30 it just just it's an ultimate entry one nine to twenty three but with what looks like 10 3 K yeah can you correlate the
01:29:45 like 10 3 K yeah can you correlate the two or are they different entries they are different entries right and they will have I would have got those from of us under control information form but so
01:30:01 just earlier when I when I was talking about had I written this down somewhere else it was about this time maybe a bit
01:30:12 else it was about this time maybe a bit before that it became apparent that it might be possible that the residents were moving within the tower okay
01:30:29 can I then ask you about another flat on this wall yeah stick with this picture for the moment and it shows on the left-hand side we looked at it before
01:30:42 left-hand side we looked at it before one two three and then you've got five down one two - yeah fifteen query you
01:30:54 down one two - yeah fifteen query you see that do you know who wrote that down there yeah me that's my that's what 1 2 to 15 is you yeah ok that's that we
01:31:05 to 15 is you yeah ok that's that we weren't quite sure before now was it but you know you're not sure yeah what makes you sure now whereas you weren't before G is anything fresh eyes fresh eyes okay it's time of the afternoon that's exactly commendable do
01:31:18 afternoon that's exactly commendable do you remember a firefight of being present called Mandeep Singh firefighter Mandeep Singh as a name ring a bell he may have been my runner right okay
01:31:36 they he's gone he's put a statement in and he says that he spoke to a member of the public who told him that there were two people and two dogs in flat one two
01:31:49 two people and two dogs in flat one two two and that the man was refusing to leave do you have a recollection of they have a recollection of a crew coming
01:32:01 have a recollection of a crew coming down and they seemed a bit frustrated at the fact that someone had refused to leave right let's just see if I can pursue this if I don't know i don't i would not be able to know tell you who
01:32:12 would not be able to know tell you who what they look like I just remember thinking why would they refuse to leave okay
01:32:17 okay let's just see if we can tie the threads together with this one can I ask you please to be shown net triple zero one three zero eight nine
01:32:32 now this is I tell you what this is it is an exhibit two firefighter Mandeep Singh's statement and it's one of his it's a three by two slip and top left
01:32:47 it's a three by two slip and top left that's what I'd like to shape draw your attention to this Glenn Williams 15th floor one two two two people two dogs right now the deep do you remember
01:32:58 right now the deep do you remember seeing a slip like that I don't know okay
01:33:03 okay do you remember being passed in this kind of information by Mandeep Singh at two people two dogs I don't know
01:33:19 do you remember you say you remember firefighters coming down and being puzzled about wires the occupant wouldn't leave another call here in it
01:33:30 wouldn't leave another call here in it yeah you heard it firsthand or from someone else I couldn't tell you my eyes were focused on the wall a lot at the time did the names firefighter Knuffle
01:33:42 time did the names firefighter Knuffle and firefighter Whitley neat mean anything to you I know if I find a firefighter Nuttall did any whether they
01:33:57 firefighter Nuttall did any whether they were the crew who were Oh deployed I don't know you don't know him no okay they tallied out and came came down at 242 and 52 and 244 which which was at a
01:34:12 242 and 52 and 244 which which was at a time when the bridgehead was on the ground floor so does that help you identify when roughly you would have received the information about the occupant of flat one to two I can't
01:34:24 occupant of flat one to two I can't provide any further information about to other than if I recall I recall what you said right about an occupant refusing to move leaves that's as far as I've got
01:34:36 move leaves that's as far as I've got with the information to provide you okay just one more one or two more bits of information about that flat if you go back to the the big white picture of the wall let's use that that's because it's
01:34:48 wall let's use that that's because it's it's clearer we can do it on this because it's up save time in the middle list you've got one to 215 smoke log you see it for two-thirds of the way down the list
01:35:02 one two two fifty and that's a smoke log
01:35:08 do you remember the source of the information about smoke log we looked at this before this morning I remember asking you but that's just Percy this a bit further I can only say that if it's
01:35:23 bit further I can only say that if it's on there it would have come by the control information form I wasn't getting the source of information primarily was the control information forms from the command unit right okay
01:35:39 we have we have a statement from the firefighter La Fleur himself who says that he was unable to to debrief to you directly but told a watch manager near
01:35:50 directly but told a watch manager near where you were standing that he gave the information about the 15th floor
01:35:59 do you remember receiving information from somebody else standing near you about smoke logging in this flat I don't know okay do you remember it getting any
01:36:10 know okay do you remember it getting any information about the occupants daughter about the daughter being able to come down and give this information so the daughter came down to give the
01:36:22 daughter came down to give the information about the smoke noggin - have you a recollection about the blood sausage in that knife okay in when you wrote up smoke logging do you remember
01:36:33 wrote up smoke logging do you remember whether you sent any further information to the bridgehead about the need to deploy another crew to this flat
01:36:44 1 2 - 15 smoke
01:36:50 when I received that information I'm going to transfer that information or to communicated it and I would have as I had done throughout the evening know so that if the smoke dog was on the control
01:37:06 that if the smoke dog was on the control information form I would have passed that on if it was not then but well not entirely sure have white white would have been written up okay then
01:37:18 have been written up okay then pursuing that a bit further can we just have a pan out of the the white version it's just clear on the white version than it is on this one because we could see one to two smoke logged in the
01:37:29 see one to two smoke logged in the middle column we can also see in the left-hand column one to two appearing five entries down which you told us was you and then again towards the bottom of
01:37:42 you and then again towards the bottom of the list
01:37:43 the list well it says eight where it says no so sorry it was anyway yes that's right but it says 15 1p so you've got one to two
01:37:57 it says 15 1p so you've got one to two which you wrote 15 query and then 1 2 to 15 1p yeah so now we've got a total of 3 entries on your wall yeah 4 1 2 to 1 in the middle is my blog and
01:38:10 4 1 2 to 1 in the middle is my blog and then 2 in the left-hand column after the bridgehead has come down the one that you've highlighted there that's not my right in okay the one that is you're writing that's just yeah go with that with the question mark with the question mark
01:38:21 mark yeah do you remember a redeployment to that flat after you got the information about that there's no well there's no PA
01:38:35 about that there's no well there's no PA attached to it so that would suggest that there was not a redeployment right okay do you remember what caused you to write one to 215 query there
01:38:54 I think I don't have a clear recollection as to why I put that question mark right
01:39:22 now came back to your statement could I ask you please to go back to page nine left off some time ago
01:39:37 at the bottom of page 9 your statement you say / as more FSG slip started coming in the quality of the information
01:39:48 coming in the quality of the information started to deteriorate and there was no time written on them to put them in time order so at that stage that you're referring to there how did you
01:40:01 referring to there how did you prioritize the cause all the information is you golden as I received them right most the role in itself was becoming
01:40:15 most the role in itself was becoming more challenging I was trying my utmost to correlate information from survivors and breathing be a crews and firefighters and try and cross-check it
01:40:28 firefighters and try and cross-check it with the information I had on the wall and it was proving dealing incredibly difficult tasks okay did did you think
01:40:39 difficult tasks okay did did you think about prioritizing what you are asking what you were sending to the bridgehead by floor level in other words prioritizing the higher floors at which
01:40:51 prioritizing the higher floors at which point at the point at which you're describing the quality of the information starting to deteriorate and not getting and getting duplicates
01:41:05 the task of prioritizing the amount of slips I had into height level would have been an incredibly challenging task
01:41:18 been an incredibly challenging task right due to the sheer number of slips do it to to the sheer number of control information forms I had right so the prioritizing is that I continued to transfer the information as I was
01:41:30 transfer the information as I was receiving it and at the same time I would continue to cross-check the new information that the fire survival guidance that's as I received them versus the information I had already
01:41:42 versus the information I had already transferred to the bridgehead it's I think it's reasonable to say that I may have documented duplicates every bit of
01:41:54 have documented duplicates every bit of information I've got I was transferring and cross-checking now at the top of page 10 of your statement you say there was no time written on the slits to put
01:42:05 was no time written on the slits to put them into a time water I wanted to prioritize the list using the time they were coming in but as though they were calls were coming in so quickly I did not have the time to organize it to maintain some order ice or resorts to prioritize prioritizing
01:42:17 or resorts to prioritize prioritizing the calls as I got them so does that mean that at that stage you switched to a first-come first-serve basis in other words first-in first-out know throughout
01:42:28 words first-in first-out know throughout the whole night I've been prioritizing the fire survival guidance as I received them right yeah well that's why I asked in the question because it suggests here that things changed after you
01:42:42 after they stopped coming in in with times on them or are you saying that that was always the case throughout the evening about the night I think that I think in the early stages of the evening
01:42:53 think in the early stages of the evening there were the detail deteriorated and I suspect that was due to the ship worrying that the command you'll agree probably to right Arcanum so just so I'm clear when you say I resorted to prioritizing the calls as I got them is
01:43:06 prioritizing the calls as I got them is it right that just barring the very beginning that is how you prioritized I think that's language in which the statement was taken here I would suggest that from the from the moment I started
01:43:19 that from the from the moment I started the fire survival guidance the I was unable to decipher a pattern in which I could do it and as I said to the beginning starting with high order I
01:43:31 beginning starting with high order I didn't how high the building was no all right in the next paragraph you say on commencing my FSG list not many people were coming out it was between 2:15 a.m.
01:43:42 were coming out it was between 2:15 a.m. to 2:40 a.m. the waves of survivors started to come out at this point I was unaware of the conditions in the stairwell I did not know how smoke had filled the stairwell or the congestion
01:43:53 filled the stairwell or the congestion and disorientation that was going on I did not know the fire had already breached in so I assumed the people coming out with self evacuating and the firefighters were assisting them now
01:44:05 firefighters were assisting them now just a number of things about that paragraph first of all did you expect to receive information about the conditions in the building yes did who you who did
01:44:18 in the building yes did who you who did you expect to receive information about that from
01:44:25 in a normal circumstance the community I expected to have some communication from the bridgehead however between 2:15 and 2:40
01:44:36 2:40 I think it's approximate I think the waves have survived again this language there were people coming out they were conscious and breathing and walk-in and predominantly
01:44:47 predominantly I'm just reading a walking City sitted faces and signs of smoke inhalation so having not even stepped a foot up a
01:44:58 so having not even stepped a foot up a stairwell I don't know what I don't know what that's there well looks like so I'm I know as much about that's their world as you do so I imagine that these must
01:45:09 as you do so I imagine that these must be people that are self vacuum and being assisted by the firefighters of course we had breathing apparatus crews being committed I knew that because we'd never
01:45:20 committed I knew that because we'd never commit firefighters into an irresponsible eating any feedback from the bridgehead about the conditions in the building but the feedback I wasn't getting the feedback from the bridgehead
01:45:31 getting the feedback from the bridgehead I was getting the feedback from people coming out right
01:45:43 and in terms of people coming out does that include firefighters anyone anyone right were you able at that stage namely
01:45:55 right were you able at that stage namely between 215 and 240 at 25 minutes a lot of time to gain a clearer picture of what the conditions were like in the building now is there anybody you could
01:46:08 building now is there anybody you could have asked having heard the information from people who are coming out if that keep residents and firefighters yeah was there anybody you could have asked
01:46:19 was there anybody you could have asked the question well what's happening inside the building all of the conditions like were the observations were different depending on who is
01:46:30 were different depending on who is coming out because they couldn't I think the conditions differed throughout the building yes throughout that stage so I could speak to so a comment from an
01:46:44 could speak to so a comment from an observation from one firefighter maybe did it differed to the observation of another firefighter so it was very it was a lot of information that didn't
01:46:58 it didn't marry up there's a lot of information that they don't tally up with what you'd expect to be happening inside that stairwell or the fries did
01:47:09 inside that stairwell or the fries did you pursue any consistent feedback or tallying up from anybody I continue to
01:47:20 tallying up from anybody I continue to ask the firefighters and instruct the firefighters not to remove the casualties until they had told me where
01:47:31 casualties until they had told me where they had come from and in that process what were the conditions right what was happening what was it like where have you bought these people from there was a
01:47:43 you bought these people from there was a language difficulty with some of the with and I don't know whether it was the language difficulty or whether it was shock but there was it in the early
01:47:55 shock but there was it in the early stages I've got a bit of information but as as time rapidly moved on I got less and less information from the casualties and the firefighters appearance and
01:48:07 and the firefighters appearance and condition on exiting the building was clearly deteriorating hmm so conditions were clearly worsening were you satisfied with the quality and reliability of the information that you
01:48:19 reliability of the information that you were getting from firefighters and and casualties about the conditions in the building I was satisfied that the firefighters were given me a verbal
01:48:30 firefighters were given me a verbal understanding of what they had experienced I had a primary concern as to how we were going to correlate the casualties that had been bought out the
01:48:41 casualties that had been bought out the building to
01:48:45 the fire survival guidance we were receiving the location and we're so very skewed because what did become apparent was that the people being rescued won't
01:48:58 was that the people being rescued won't necessarily were being rescued but not necessarily from the place in which encore took place and that happened very quickly incredibly quickly so the accuracy of the two deteriorating conditions yes because that's how we're
01:49:12 conditions yes because that's how we're trained we're trying to give clear concise descriptive briefs of the conditions that we've experienced so I was satisfied that the different
01:49:25 was satisfied that the different locations who asked in our firefighters to go to with this he rated in the form of
01:49:33 Hot smart gasses disorientation congestion
01:49:42 if as you say people were evacuating from from flats which are different from the ones which to which deployments have been made how would you go about
01:49:56 been made how would you go about ensuring that an accurate record was kept of of where they come from when the
01:50:09 kept of of where they come from when the first so initially the casualties have been taken out the front entrance the front entrance soon became unusable so
01:50:21 front entrance soon became unusable so they were they start to exit out of a side entrance and I'd already had several casualties come past me and I hadn't been able to cover like where
01:50:32 hadn't been able to cover like where they've come from hmm so that's when I was called in for a marker pen because it would be highly unusual that
01:50:44 it would be highly unusual that casualties have been rescued from a burning building and not taken to a triage area to be treated so my initial plan was to write on their forehead or
01:50:57 plan was to write on their forehead or their arm the floor and flat that way at the triage area it would be identified thus being fed back to the command unit
01:51:09 thus being fed back to the command unit I appreciate in the cold light of day when I talk about this it seems there's a lot of assumptions there but it was in
01:51:21 a lot of assumptions there but it was in the accuracy it was not accurate it was not accurate where people were coming from they didn't know they didn't know what floor they were they'd started to
01:51:33 what floor they were they'd started to walk down the stairs and had been picked up by VA crews it was wholly inaccurate and it was nigh on impossible to correlate that information before Pete
01:51:46 correlate that information before Pete Wolfe ndon appeared in the lobby and started helping you was anybody responsible but did anybody undertake the task of communicating back to the
01:51:59 the task of communicating back to the command unit the results good or bad of any particular deployment to flats that you had recorded on the wall I don't believe they did on the success
01:52:12 I don't believe they did on the success of the rescue my intention because I knew I because I'd already identified that the radio traffic was heavy that I would send a priority to the command unit so rather than have a continuous
01:52:23 unit so rather than have a continuous relay of information which would as I have mentioned be at risk of being inaccurate my idea was that I'd send a priority on the success of a of a rescue
01:52:36 priority on the success of a of a rescue but only only if I could categorically if only if I could be absolutely sure that that person came from that fire
01:52:47 that that person came from that fire Survival Guide was caught and I was unable to do that throughout the night what's the priority how would you say I'm sorry all of our priority message on a handheld radio
01:52:58 priority message on a handheld radio would indicate to the the many firefighters talking on the handheld radios that actually I've got something very important to send to say right so
01:53:14 so as I say rather than the inaccurate relay of information going to it from the command unit throughout the night with fire survival guidance it would be a specific message that I'm gonna send
01:53:29 a specific message that I'm gonna send right
01:53:30 right do you remember sending any priority I did it early I did send a one priority throughout the night on channel one and that was because there had been a concern that firefighter Hill had had a
01:53:43 concern that firefighter Hill had had a firefighter emergency right so I sent a priority for firefighter Hill to return to the engine control point right can I just ask you about a document you had to
01:53:54 just ask you about a document you had to see if that where this leads lfb 1922 page 15 please just thinking
01:54:02 this is Joan it's all right it's just checking the witnesses comes to fight wife let's be kept in the loop [Music]
01:54:13 [Music] I think there's a conspiracy plate 15 now this I don't if you could help us with this this happens to be about flat 183 23rd floor but it's really the
01:54:25 183 23rd floor but it's really the initial information I'm interested in somebody's written priorities yeah and we think that somebody was Anthony Peckham watch manager Pekerman can command unit 7
01:54:37 command unit 7 and there's a list there yeah do it does this help does this ring a bell you've got six or so five can you out
01:54:49 you've got six or so five can you out six
01:55:05 it looks familiar
01:55:08 and it might this be a priority Matt one of the priority messages or up iodine's names that you sent back and unit where that says priorities I'm not necessarily
01:55:19 that says priorities I'm not necessarily sure that that is a priority is in the set in the term priority message I think that that is a priority is in that they have documented that information and
01:55:30 have documented that information and they're listing it as a priority and that makes sense because in fact one of those flats it's one thing to in general
01:55:43 those flats it's one thing to in general terms do do you are leaving aside priorities was there any other way in which you communicated the results of any particular deployments that you knew about back to the command unit no right
01:56:01 about back to the command unit no right and why was that I did not have an accurate outcome okay so is there any other reason no that's the only reason right
01:56:17 in circumstances or in cases where you put a tick on your middle list we've seen you describe to us did you communicate that the information
01:56:30 communicate that the information underlying each tick back to the command unit no because it became apparent that it was inaccurate okay and did when you wrote BA and then cross the VA out did
01:56:42 wrote BA and then cross the VA out did you communicate the fact that no be a deployment had been made to the particular flats in your left hand list and where we see that I believe that that communication took place when when
01:56:56 that communication took place when when there was a discussion around whether we would commit the club a certain floor that was all part of that communication with people from them do you remember an
01:57:07 with people from them do you remember an exchange with a firefighter that you know Rickie Nuttall that you said earlier you know firefighter Nuttall I do know do you remember in exchange with him in which he tried to give you information and said I've got lots of
01:57:22 information and said I've got lots of calls coming in and you couldn't take information from him so checking yeah well we'll have to explore this with him but he says that he tried to give you
01:57:35 but he says that he tried to give you some information about a debriefing after about 3:00 10:00 in the morning and he and he says in his statement that
01:57:46 and he and he says in his statement that he told you that I'm not doing that I'm doing this and you were the one person doing the fast vital guidance down there in the building and you didn't have time to call people up and tell them about a
01:57:58 to call people up and tell them about a particular floor because you had a lot of FSGS to handle that's the gist of his evidence on a conversation with you'd my question to you is do you remember
01:58:10 question to you is do you remember no I'm sorry I'm not doing what it that doesn't make very much oh that's what he whether it's good or bad that's what he said let me try it a different way do
01:58:21 said let me try it a different way do you recall an exchange with Ricky Nuttall in which he's trying to give you information he got from his deployment the results of his deployment yeah as if
01:58:32 the results of his deployment yeah as if bi where he gets deployed as a bi where he's coming back to give me in for my yes I had I spoke to a lot of firefighters that night so and I know
01:58:45 firefighters that night so and I know Ricky I would need an indicator as to the context of the conversation we had well I've tried that no I'm not doing this I'm not doing that well that's what he quits you as having said it doesn't I
01:58:57 he quits you as having said it doesn't I don't recall that me saying that all right and now I want to ask you something mechanically on page 9 of your statement to buy an automatic
01:59:16 statement to buy an automatic ventilation control panel this is the second last paragraph on that page and you said you say as I wrote the FSG information on the wall I noticed there was an automatic ventilation control
01:59:27 was an automatic ventilation control panel to the left of me I was going through so many FSG slips I was too occupied to look at the unit myself I raised this with the station manager who was not as busy as me I informed him we needed to check the control panel and
01:59:39 needed to check the control panel and check if the ventilation had been opened so the conditions of the stairwell would be breathable I do not know if this was checked very soon preoccupied by the sheer volume of FSG calls coming in now um you say you noticed there was an
01:59:53 um you say you noticed there was an automatic ventilation control to the left of me insurance the left it's a type I for it was to the right it was to the right can you describe what you saw with the panel was it open or closed do
02:00:04 with the panel was it open or closed do you remember I will call the door being slightly open
02:00:12 not much right do you remember them with whether there was a key in it do you remember whether there was anything all the display showing I my recollection is as I put it in my statement I recall it being a automatic
02:00:26 statement I recall it being a automatic revelation of the calculation you say I raised this with the station manager do you remember who that was I know I've
02:00:38 you remember who that was I know I've raised something weird station manager Maya right by can't remember who I write which station manager less than a the first Nicholas might later but the station manager Walton had some
02:00:51 station manager Walton had some involvement just so you know says he said he had some involvement with this panel on the night do you remember whether it was him it would be feasible that I would have raised it with Andy would I do you remember though well there was a station
02:01:04 remember though well there was a station manager that had led me in and out the building yes and if that is Andy Walton it's likely that I raised it with him let's see if we can just say the station manager you're referring to is that the same station manager that led you up and then led you down again at the very
02:01:16 then led you down again at the very beginning yes right okay were you concerned as to the conditions in the stairwell at this stage my experience with automatic ventilation
02:01:29 my experience with automatic ventilation is that it's there to improve conditions so the fact that that it's even there with need would mean that it needs that
02:01:41 with need would mean that it needs that someone needs to look at that right but I didn't know about the conditions in this there okay what did the station manager respond to you in response to
02:01:52 manager respond to you in response to your instruction to him that you needed to check in suggestion
02:02:10 I've mentioned in my statement well I don't think you do you say I don't know if it was checked yeah now what's his response do you know I don't know okay so did that station manager give you any
02:02:21 so did that station manager give you any indication that he knew how the system operated he didn't know okay did you see him make any attempt to inspect it also operate it I didn't know okay do you
02:02:36 operate it I didn't know okay do you know whether that station manager made any attempt to talk to those managing the building to see if they could assist him I don't know okay now I'd like to
02:02:48 him I don't know okay now I'd like to move to the next topic which is moving the bridgehead to the third floor we know from previous evidence given to the inquiry that at about 2:17 the bridge had moved up from the second floor to
02:03:01 had moved up from the second floor to the third floor where it was working for about an hour or so until it was until it came down to the ground floor at after 308 also were you aware that the
02:03:12 after 308 also were you aware that the bridge had have moved up from the second to the third floor at any stage at the time I was not really okay to watch manager Watson didn't tell you the bridges had gone up no not that I recall
02:03:25 bridges had gone up no not that I recall okay
02:03:29 did you notice that your system was affected at any point in the in the in the night were you able to continue to communicate with much manager Watson
02:03:40 communicate with much manager Watson throughout your the process of your I want to say circulation anywhere do you remember having [Music]
02:03:54 a
02:03:59 involvement with creation of a new entrance into the lobby of the tower I did yes if you go to your witness statement a parrot at page 11 it's the
02:04:16 statement a parrot at page 11 it's the second and third paragraphs on that page you
02:04:19 you I think explained there you say the station manager decided to stop the main entrance being used as it was now impossible and then you go on to explain
02:04:31 impossible and then you go on to explain what happened next and you say
02:04:40 and you explained that you delegated a firefighter to create an exit point into the tower or introduce an exit point into the tower was that exit made through the doorway up to the right of
02:04:52 through the doorway up to the right of where you were doing or FSG the communal yeah so as you're looking at the wall there's a door just to the right side
02:05:03 there's a door just to the right side yes yes and let's just be clear if we can have inq 247 it's one of a number of pictures with this door in it yes
02:05:14 pictures with this door in it yes there's a door exactly right and just help us visualize what else is happening that picture doesn't doesn't matter this is just another example of the door if you go through the door
02:05:25 the door if you go through the door where does it lead I only went through that door once well I was when I was exiting the premise oh I see II from recollection it's a comet this is a corridor the leads through to a
02:05:36 is a corridor the leads through to a room and relatively a reasonably sized room maybe five meters by 10 meters right and in the right hand corner there
02:05:50 right and in the right hand corner there was an exit was created
02:06:11 can you let's just see if we can just pin this down please be shown m ET triple zero one two five nine three pick
02:06:27 triple zero one two five nine three pick a page eight yes please page eight this is they should be a plan of the ground floor if we just enlarge the southern
02:06:43 floor if we just enlarge the southern part of that you could see the atrium in the middle and on the left there's a door which leads into a hall with a WC
02:06:56 door which leads into a hall with a WC and hints of which I think you've just seen in the photograph and then that then leads into a room to the west if we
02:07:07 then leads into a room to the west if we can just have the edge of it which is which says office do you know where the entrance was was cut from my
02:07:18 entrance was was cut from my recollection it would be in the community where it says office yeah and it would be up there
02:07:32 it would be up there sorry this corner here right there she left Angkor so the North corner there yes sir there all right okay but are you
02:07:43 yes sir there all right okay but are you able to help us with the time at which that creation of an entrance took place
02:07:51 it would have been quite early on because it felt quite early on right was
02:08:03 because it felt quite early on right was that before or after the bridge had moved to the ground floor taking that as your it was soon after right I gave my helmet to the little girl to the young lady exiting the premise with the be a
02:08:15 lady exiting the premise with the be a setup we're uh soon after that but that would be but we can get that because that's a weedless look at is about 220 but soon after that how we know it's 220
02:08:27 but soon after that how we know it's 220 because I because I am Q 247 as the photograph where that appears so about 220 so just it would be able to started I I think yeah yeah relative masane I I
02:08:39 I I think yeah yeah relative masane I I don't know if it'd be as soon as 220 but certainly within the 30 minute span of that it felt like okay now given that you say in your statement to page 10 second paragraph that it was between 215
02:08:50 second paragraph that it was between 215 and 240 that waves of survivor stars have come out yeah does that mean that you actually had a bird's-eye view of everybody who went out of the tower I had an overview of people there was a
02:09:04 I had an overview of people there was a slight there was a slight delay in the creation of the access some some survivors have been brought down to the fray we weren't able to use the main
02:09:17 fray we weren't able to use the main entrance
02:09:17 entrance due to the debris falling and a career and access hadn't been created which resulted in several of the survivors yes remaining in the foyer while we while
02:09:31 remaining in the foyer while we while the decision was made create an accident how long was that period I think really struggle - okay
02:09:45 period I think really struggle - okay I'm sorry the the timings are very difficult to remove as people are exiting through the door - you're right yep were you able to stop all of them no
02:09:56 yep were you able to stop all of them no I'm trying I was trying I was speaking to so they what what developed was fire the BA what seemed to be happening was
02:10:07 the BA what seemed to be happening was that the BA crews have bring them down to as far as the bridgehead and then firefighters would take the casualties around mezzanine level and start assisting them down the stairs yes and then you would have maybe another
02:10:19 then you would have maybe another firefighter take the casualty so it's a bit like a change to daisy-chain exactly you know so by which point by the time we get to the location in which
02:10:31 the time we get to the location in which I'm doing the fire survival guidance I'm asking the firefighters assisting and of course they don't know because they're just part of this chain and I'm asking the residents but either through shop
02:10:42 the residents but either through shop through language difficulty through unconsciousness I wasn't able to ascertain clear information which then made it incredibly challenging to relay
02:10:54 made it incredibly challenging to relay any information to the command unit and I I didn't I didn't think that it was appropriate to relay inaccurate information no I said just picking that
02:11:08 information no I said just picking that up and moving moving in all of the way can you go to page 12 of your statement
02:11:13 I just want to look at paragraph 3 on that page with you you say the casualties being brought down at signs of smoke inhalation it's a long ish
02:11:24 of smoke inhalation it's a long ish paragraph and I'm not spend time reading it all out to you but I do have a number of questions about it first of all you say that the casualties were being brought down had signs of smoke inhalation and were in a worse
02:11:36 smoke inhalation and were in a worse condition than those carried out earlier can you just describe for us what you mean by in a worse condition so initially as I referred to earlier on her to when I was describing the initial
02:11:47 her to when I was describing the initial entrance into the block that there were casualties conscious and breathing coming out with signs us you know with assisted faces but they were conscious and breathing they were walking that not over being assisted but as the incident
02:12:01 over being assisted but as the incident rapidly progressed the condition of the casualties deteriorated and now some were conscious and breathing some were
02:12:12 were conscious and breathing some were unconscious some were being carried the
02:12:19 general my observation is that a general health condition had begun to deteriorate we go on to say in the next
02:12:30 deteriorate we go on to say in the next line that as this was going on I continue to try and correlate where the casualties were coming from ticking off those I couldn't identify on my FSG list now reluctant as I am to get back to the
02:12:44 now reluctant as I am to get back to the wall as it were this hour let me try and do that can I ask you them to be to be shown the white wall again five seven seven four
02:13:00 can you just show us when you say ticking off is there anywhere on on the wall way you would identify this ticking
02:13:11 wall way you would identify this ticking off that you refer to in your statement
02:13:19 so initially the information I was getting back was that the crews had made it to these floors but fairly soon it
02:13:32 it to these floors but fairly soon it became apparent that the information may may have been inaccurate right so the tick for the example of the 205 went up but then you soon became that you soon
02:13:44 but then you soon became that you soon realized that was that was wrong is that right it soon became apparent that the crews were unsure if they've gone to the 20th of the 23rd or whether they've been to the 19th of the or the 21st so my my
02:13:58 to the 19th of the or the 21st so my my early hopes of being able to correlate rescues diminished right very quickly okay well it may be just the drafting of a statement then because it it seems miss that you you were you were able to
02:14:10 miss that you you were you were able to tick off some of those you could identify I just wanted you to help me identify or give me some examples of those ticks the way you could identify
02:14:23 those ticks the way you could identify so I recalled a be a crew coming down and they would work absolutely sure and I can't remember which flat it was but the BI crew themselves have gone into the flat and they were absolutely sure
02:14:34 the flat and they were absolutely sure that they've been in the flat and there was no one there right and can you give me a where I know
02:14:49 is that the whole wall no it doesn't the white one isn't the whole wall but it's the more visible yeah I part most of it we can get back to I can't remember the number because then in second ba Guerra
02:15:02 number because then in second ba Guerra it was conflicting information because the second where I said that would believe that they want a different floor right so initially where I was getting a
02:15:13 right so initially where I was getting a lot of information quite quickly about the success rate of reaching the flattened floor you know as I say very quickly it became apparent that this information was inaccurate
02:15:26 information was inaccurate are there any flats and floors work where you put a tick where you didn't get information afterwards that the crews which you didn't find reliable so
02:15:41 crews which you didn't find reliable so I can you yeah there are there any instances on that list or either list in fact where you originally put a tick where you remain confident that the tick was correct no right so for all of them
02:15:54 was correct no right so for all of them you receive this right you received later information that you had made reliable information very quickly it became apparent that the information I've received on the success rate right
02:16:08 I've received on the success rate right was inaccurate and I was unable to report back to the command unit any information on specific details of rescues
02:16:19 mr. miletti excuse my interrupting you yes again are we getting on we are getting on all right that there are still some things I need to cover with the witness I'm I fear I won't finish
02:16:31 the witness I'm I fear I won't finish the witness this afternoon well could we find a convenient point to break fairly soon yes I think my fourth or even it is an alternate for the witness let's
02:16:42 an alternate for the witness let's finish it off as for if that's not inconvenient to you mr. chairman and you feel about another seven or eight minutes can you cope by some kind I thought you couldn't right we should
02:16:53 thought you couldn't right we should have some small shop in this you find a convenient point before then it's very good certainly thank you
02:17:20 you say that in the same paragraph as I've shown you before that it was that
02:17:30 bow that you say by the time they reached the ground floor it was unknown where they come from and which crew had rescued them you've covered that then you say residents also appear to be moving around within the tower and
02:17:41 moving around within the tower and seeking refuge how did you know that how did you know residents were moving around in the town seeking refuge because because there it was the only
02:17:55 because because there it was the only explanation for the different numbers right say that was that a an inference or an assumption new male did you get in for hard information I would say get
02:18:06 for hard information I would say get hard information it was as I said to the detective at the time I think this is a clarification on language I think when I write and it may be my fault for not
02:18:17 write and it may be my fault for not making my statement it clearly but I was I was saying that the different numbers could only of meant that it was that
02:18:29 could only of meant that it was that people were moving right so to have such an example to have the number of people are surprised by the number by the number ten ten people in a flat because
02:18:42 it didn't seem like the habit was space was accommodate 10 people though that make sense yeah did you make did you communicate to the bridgehead or to the
02:18:55 communicate to the bridgehead or to the command unit the the fact that you knew or thought that people were moving around in the building I went past in
02:19:06 around in the building I went past in the information I said I expressed that they must be moving between flats so I say this in turn so that it can be passed to the bridgehead who did you say
02:19:18 passed to the bridgehead who did you say that ii think i probably
02:19:26 it was though the bridge headers on the ground floor I believe I went to the door and said they must be moving between flats right when I went with with reference to the fire Survival
02:19:37 with reference to the fire Survival Guide that's being taken to the bridgehead park bypassing me and I said look we've got people and they got one with ten people on it did you pass that
02:19:48 with ten people on it did you pass that information to the bridgehead or to the command unit before not so Gerald you know I don't pass any information to the common unit did you pass the information to the bridgehead then at any stage before it moved down to the ground floor
02:19:59 before it moved down to the ground floor now about people moving around inside because it only became apparent to me okay once they were on the ground field right
02:20:08 right did you update your wall with further information which would reflect movement this was more than observation around the what I was identifying in the numbers coming in it wasn't hard
02:20:20 numbers coming in it wasn't hard information it wasn't it was an observation that that would help identify how the how things were different that makes it yes so the crews
02:20:35 different that makes it yes so the crews will go into places and there weren't people there and so just through a process of a long night communicating amongst firefighters amongst people coming out the disorientation it was an
02:20:49 coming out the disorientation it was an observation and it was more of a open they must be moving around it wasn't a vital eye contact and
02:21:00 it wasn't a vital eye contact and clearly handing over of this information the way I was with Paul Watson it was just an open dialogue they must be moving we've got ten people in a flat
02:21:11 moving we've got ten people in a flat can I just ask you to try a document on you it's LFE 1968 page 17
02:21:28 now this is a two by three fireman's pad slip with a female and a child on it and
02:21:40 slip with a female and a child on it and then there's a as a move or rather it says 1 1 5 2 1 1 3 does this trigger a
02:21:52 says 1 1 5 2 1 1 3 does this trigger a recollection about a flat move know that you had no
02:22:03 mr. Chanin I actually do have had come out of a natural break point I probably got another hour of evidence left of this witness I'm afraid yeah
02:22:14 this witness I'm afraid yeah and of course I can't account for what suggestions might gently be clipped my way of the night language as to which that is not an invitation of course but
02:22:26 that is not an invitation of course but yes it is a time which I just asked gently through through the Chairman whether or not it's it's convenient for the witness to return tomorrow morning well then well mr. Williams we do have
02:22:37 well then well mr. Williams we do have some more questions for you can you come back tomorrow yeah I can't continue now well I think you know everyone gets quite tired during these long days and you're still fresher
02:22:48 these long days and you're still fresher than many of the rest of us his DNA can continue right cut they did get may I make an application I'm conscious that there are other firefighters to come
02:23:00 there are other firefighters to come tomorrow is it the usual applications that you you for real yes yes but slightly different reason actually but but doesn't matter it's an unreasonable application 930 million that exchange
02:23:11 application 930 million that exchange was code for police can we sit at half past 9:00 tomorrow because we obviously like to try and keep up with things a bit without inconvenience you to start off last night that's perfect okay right well then I'm going to ask you to come
02:23:23 well then I'm going to ask you to come back to you with half past nine tomorrow and we'll finish taking your evidence there okay in the meantime please don't talk about our matters to anyone all right and we look forward seeing you tomorrow morning thank you
02:23:44 nothing else we need to deal with now I know mr. Cho and I should just say I'm grateful to the sitting late this evening and also tomorrow morning early we ought to be able to make up the time for me because I'm assured by mr. Kenya
02:23:56 for me because I'm assured by mr. Kenya that he won't be terribly long with the witnesses that follow you will see yes thank you very much well we'll rise now and resume at half past 9:00 tomorrow morning please
02:24:16 you