David Bellamy, Chief of Staff to the Mayor of London, gives evidence on the Greater London Authority's response to Grenfell and the coordination between central government, local authorities, and London resilience structures.
00:00:00 e
00:00:31 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to begin today by hearing evidence from a representative of the office of the mayor of London yes M mahra oh good morning Mr chairman good
00:00:44 M mahra oh good morning Mr chairman good morning members of the panel could I please call Mr David Bellamy thank
00:00:58 you good morning Mr good morning I understand you wish to affirm please the words are there on the screen would you read them out please I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm
00:01:11 sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much now please sit down and make yourself comfortable
00:01:23 okay yes mrra when you're ready you good morning Mr Bellamy good morning can I start by thanking you for attending today to give your evidence to the inquiry and for your assistance just a
00:01:35 inquiry and for your assistance just a few words by way of introduction if I may could I invite you please to keep your voice up so that we can hear you clearly it also helps not to nod or Shake um but to say yes or no because
00:01:47 Shake um but to say yes or no because nods and shakes don't get picked up on the
00:01:49 the transcript um if any of my questions are unclear please say so and I will happily rephrase the question Lastly lastly if you feel you need to break at anytime time please do
00:02:00 need to break at anytime time please do let us know is that all right yes I'm going to turn to your statements next you made three statements to the inquiry they will appear on the screen in front of you could I please take you to them
00:02:12 of you could I please take you to them now your first witness statement M Mo
00:02:18 625 we can see on the right hand side it is dated the 28th of September 2018 if we go to page 26 of your first statement we can see a signature there
00:02:29 statement we can see a signature there at the bottom is that yours yes could I take you to your second statement that's M Mo
00:02:38 50166 on the right hand side uh we can see it is dated the 28th of June 2019 now on page two uh we can see a signature there is that your signature
00:02:50 signature there is that your signature yes could I take you to your third statement that's m501
00:02:57 m501 180 again on the right hand side side we can see it is dated the 19th of February 2021 there's a signature on page 10 again can you confirm that that is
00:03:09 10 again can you confirm that that is yours it is have you had an opportunity to read each of your statements recently yes can you confirm that the contents are true to the best of your knowledge um there are two things that I wanted to
00:03:21 um there are two things that I wanted to mention one was that um to we the exhibit to the first statement of the Strategic coordination protocol um the incorrect version was submitted I believe it was 6.5 when it should have
00:03:33 believe it was 6.5 when it should have been 7.3 which was in Force at the time um the second thing was in the first statement at parah 62 and the third
00:03:44 statement at parah 62 and the third statement at par 24 I think the implication could have been made that the knnc foundation was in some way um part of the RO B of
00:03:55 in some way um part of the RO B of kenson and Chelsea and I don't believe that to be the case well thank you for those clarification ations uh Mr Bellamy the focus of my questions today will be the following four topics firstly your background role
00:04:07 four topics firstly your background role and
00:04:08 and responsibilities secondly the greater London Authority and its roles and responsibility thirdly the role of the mayor of London in civil emergency and fourthly your response and that of the mayor of London and the GLA in the
00:04:20 mayor of London and the GLA in the immediate aftermath of the fire so turning first then to your background if I may um you were at the time of the fire and still are EMP employed by the greater London Authority is that right
00:04:32 greater London Authority is that right yes uh you have been employed by the greater London Authority since May 2016 is that correct yes your role at the greater London Authority is the mayor of London's chief of staff is that correct
00:04:45 London's chief of staff is that correct yes the mayor of London at the time of the fire and remains today sadique Khan is that so yes your role as Chief of Staff means you are directly responsible to the mayor for the leadership of his
00:04:57 to the mayor for the leadership of his office advisors and the coordination of his administration is that right yes would you agree Mr Bellamy that that puts you at the heart of his administration
00:05:09 administration yes you have served as the mayor of London's Chief of Staff since he was elected the mayor of London in May 2016 is that so yes before being appointed um
00:05:20 is that so yes before being appointed um as Chief of Staff to the mayor of London in 2016 did you have any experience in civil contingencies and emergency planning so I would have had um a very
00:05:31 planning so I would have had um a very small amount of Knowledge from some of the Preparatory work we took place for the event of the May being elected um but substantively no uh once you became
00:05:43 but substantively no uh once you became the mayor's Chief of Staff did you receive trainings or briefings about civil
00:05:47 civil contingencies so there was um the um there was a briefing book prepared for the incoming mayor um which had a couple of pages in it on resilience um and as I
00:05:58 of pages in it on resilience um and as I just indicated I saw draft of that during the election campaign and I had a session in the first week I believe on the first Thursday with the
00:06:09 the first Thursday with the gla's um City operations lead who served as our duty officer most of the time then um to take me through Arrangements thank you I'd like to ask
00:06:22 Arrangements thank you I'd like to ask you next about the greater London Authority and where it sits within the Civil resilience framework for London is it right the greater London Authority is a body corporate that is established by
00:06:34 a body corporate that is established by Statute that's the greater London Authority Act of 1999 is that correct yes the greater London Authority is made up of the mayor of London and the London
00:06:45 up of the mayor of London and the London assembly is that right it is is it the case that the greater London Authority the GLA as I'm I'll refer to it is the overarching body and the role of the
00:06:56 overarching body and the role of the mayor of London sits within it yes is it right that the functions given to the greater London Authority are exercised in one of three ways first by
00:07:09 exercised in one of three ways first by the mayor of London on behalf of the GLA secondly by the London assembly on behalf of the GL or by the mayor and assembly on behalf of the GLA yes and there are schemes of
00:07:21 GLA yes and there are schemes of Delegation pertaining to the first two of
00:07:26 those the inquiry has heard evidence uh from Mr heatherington uh who is now the head of London resilience regarding category one and two responders you also
00:07:38 category one and two responders you also deal with this we don't need to go to it uh but you deal with it at paragraph 16 of your first statement uh category one responders if I can just summarize it in this way are for example the emergency
00:07:50 this way are for example the emergency services and local authorities category two responders include transport and utility companies for example uh can you confirm if the mayor of London is a category 1
00:08:01 category 1 responder um I think the The Authority is
00:08:07 yes the greater London Authority is a category 1 responder and became a category one responder in 2011 is that right I believe
00:08:18 right I believe so um for us to better understand how the greater London Authority fits into the Civil resilience framework it might assist us if you can help us with the
00:08:29 assist us if you can help us with the historical context is it the case that in 2002 following the 9/11 attacks the London resilience team was formed I believe so at that time did it
00:08:42 formed I believe so at that time did it form part of the government office for London yes that's my understanding uh the government office for London closed in 2010 is that right I believe so this
00:08:53 in 2010 is that right I believe so this is when responsibility for resilience in London was devolved from the government office for London to the greater London Authority is that right yes in your first statement I'd like to
00:09:05 yes in your first statement I'd like to take you to it that's M MO 6 25 Page
00:09:12 25 Page 6 paragraph 24 and the final sentence uh final sentence there um you say paragraph 24 the very last sentence can you see that the
00:09:23 last sentence can you see that the functions of LRT and responsibility for the lrf were then transferred to to the GLA yes does it follow the GLA had
00:09:34 GLA yes does it follow the GLA had oversight of these aspects of resilience in
00:09:37 in London I think it follows that the GLA had um its responsibilities as a um category one responder plus those set out in the statutory
00:09:49 out in the statutory guidance we'll we'll come to what those uh functions were shortly on the 1st of February 2015 the functions undertaken by the LRT
00:10:00 2015 the functions undertaken by the LRT the London resilience team on behalf of the greater London Authority were transferred and they were transferred to the London Fire emergency planning Authority known as ala is that right yes
00:10:12 Authority known as ala is that right yes the London Fire and emergency planning Authority was also a category one responder is that right yes employees of the London resilience team were transferred from the GLA to alipa is
00:10:25 transferred from the GLA to alipa is that the case yes and these employees merged with the lfb 's own planning department which according to HH Cameron um who was one of the three heads of London resilience at the time of the
00:10:36 London resilience at the time of the fire was completed in 2016 is that your understanding I think he was one of the Deputy heads but yes I think there was aerg some time following the transfer upon completion of the merge
00:10:50 transfer upon completion of the merge the London resilience Group which we have heard about from at Mr heatherington was formed is that right yes
00:11:01 now in your first statement we have it in front of us page six paragraph 25 um you say this regulation 71 of the CCA that's the Civil contingencies act
00:11:13 CCA that's the Civil contingencies act regulations provides that in order to facilitate cooperation under regulation four responders may enter into a protocol with each other regulation 8
00:11:24 protocol with each other regulation 8 provides that each category one responder May a perform a duty under Section 2 one of the CCA jointly with another responder make
00:11:35 another responder make arrangements make make arrangements with another responder for that responder to perform such a duty on behalf of the general category one responder is it your understanding that
00:11:46 responder is it your understanding that these regulations provide the basis for the gla's working Arrangements yes well I'd like to um look at those arrangements now if I may um as it was
00:11:58 arrangements now if I may um as it was at the the time of the fire I appreciate it has um somewhat changed since um is it correct that the arrangement between the GLA and alipa was governed by a
00:12:10 the GLA and alipa was governed by a protocol um I'm not I I believe there was something in place I'm struggling to remember whether it's a protocol or a memorandum of understanding obviously it was put into effect before my time but I know there's there's some document that
00:12:22 know there's there's some document that governs it yes perhaps I can help you Mr Bellamy if we could go to m Mo 642
00:12:31 um it is dated the 28th of January 2015 uh and it is a protocol relating to the discharge of statutory resilience functions by the London Fire and
00:12:43 functions by the London Fire and emergency planning Authority on behalf of the greater London Authority we can see that um could we go to page four
00:12:55 please at H we can see the purpose of the protocol is set out and it says this the purpose of the protocol is to ref reflect the agreement reached by the
00:13:06 reflect the agreement reached by the parties that the functions currently undertaken by the London resilience team on behalf of the GLA comprising the lrf Secretariat role and other resilience functions set out in schedule one the
00:13:18 functions set out in schedule one the specified functions shall be carried out by the Fire Authority on the gl's behalf this is permitted by the CCR that's the Civil contingencies regulations for for
00:13:29 Civil contingencies regulations for for subsection 5 seven and8 as set out above as a category 1 responder itself the Fire Authority has the necessary statutory duties to carry out the
00:13:40 statutory duties to carry out the functions in question uh moving to schedule one on page 28
00:13:48 page 28 them we can see the responsibilities that were transferred to alipa are listed here um I'm not going to go through all of them or in fact any of
00:14:01 through all of them or in fact any of them but we can see at the bottom of the page there it says um which of those which of those functions re remained with the GLA and if we can turn over the
00:14:14 page uh we can see there uh that these are the responsibilities that were retained by the greater London Authority uh strategic oversight for resilience
00:14:25 uh strategic oversight for resilience continuance as the home of London resilience through the facility of key meetings on site at the GLA City Hall such as the London resilience forum and maintaining and improving as necessary
00:14:37 maintaining and improving as necessary the London prepared website Mr Bellamy can you assist us please what is your understanding of strategic oversight for resilience here
00:14:48 strategic oversight for resilience here so as I say obviously this was before my time what I interpret that is meaning was that although um London resilience team at alipa were carrying out the
00:14:59 team at alipa were carrying out the these responsibilities for the GLA it wasn't transferring the gla's ultimate responsibility um as set out you know as a category and responder and as set out in the statutory
00:15:11 in the statutory guidance can you assist us with whether the greater London Authority um have oversight of the London resilience group The London resilience forum and the
00:15:23 The London resilience forum and the London resilience partnership that we have heard about so um the Authority is a member of the partnership and thus a member of The
00:15:35 member of The Forum um it's obvious the mayor obviously appoints the chair of the resilience forum and so there's you know there's a potential relationship there
00:15:46 there's a potential relationship there um in terms of the um the um London resilience group as now is clearly they're carrying out responsibilities for aliper as was um the look you local
00:15:59 for aliper as was um the look you local authorities um and the GLA and yeah there's certainly a relationship there between um the GLA and London resilience group given all those
00:16:11 group given all those things so could I just clarify then by virtue of the responsibilities that we've seen the Strategic oversight role for resilience that the greater London Authority has uh does that mean that the
00:16:24 Authority has uh does that mean that the greater London Authority has oversight of the London resilience forum I no I don't I don't think there's anything in statute that sets out that gives us any greater responsibility than
00:16:36 gives us any greater responsibility than any other category one responder um you the guidance does say it says for the time being that the mayor is or appoints the chair the chair of the Forum but I don't think there's
00:16:47 of the Forum but I don't think there's actually anything um in statute or guidance that gives the GLA some form of strategic oversight for all of resilience in London it's very much um a partnership you matter so so would it be
00:17:00 partnership you matter so so would it be wrong in that case then uh to suggest that the chair of the London resilience forum is the person who would have oversight of the work of the of the local resilience Forum the London
00:17:11 local resilience Forum the London resilience Forum forgive me so I think you would you would say they were they were probably the ultimate person they have don't the um a program board I think it's called where
00:17:23 program board I think it's called where key key members of the partnership would would come together and agree and oversee the work program and so having more Focus so I think I would possibly look look to that um program board but
00:17:35 look look to that um program board but clearly the role of the chair is
00:17:40 important are you aware of any um mechanism or ability of the mayor of London uh or the GLA to scrutinize the work of the London resilience Forum so I at the at the time that this
00:17:54 Forum so I at the at the time that this was introduced in year 2016 when we came into office I don't think there was any such mechanism there is there is one now can you tell us what that mechanism is please so um part of the the changes we
00:18:08 please so um part of the the changes we introduced at the GLA I chair a corporate investment board um which you know considers all the the key decisions before the GLA before they're submitted to the mayor and um we have formed um a
00:18:22 to the mayor and um we have formed um a number of subcommittees of that board one of those is a resilience committee which is very much focused on you know the gla's responsibilities under the CCA
00:18:34 the gla's responsibilities under the CCA Associated guidance Etc and as part of that um we work with um John hington and the chair of the resilience Forum of course now is the deputy mayor for fire
00:18:46 course now is the deputy mayor for fire and resilience and so we have we have somebody in the GLA in a way we didn't back then who very clearly has a has a lead responsibility around resilience so
00:18:57 lead responsibility around resilience so just so I've understood it correctly the way um that the mayor of London and the greater London Authority have oversight of the work of the um London resilience forum is through a board that has since the fire been created is that
00:19:10 the fire been created is that right yes and through um yeah the works of the deputy
00:19:16 mayor before um moving on uh then Mr Bellamy and for completeness we should point out that the on the 1st of April of 2018 after the fire alipa was abolished and replaced by the London far
00:19:29 abolished and replaced by the London far commissioner is that right that's correct uh is it the case that the responsibilities of aliper then transferred to the London Fire commissioner it is and can we take it that as a result of that uh change and
00:19:42 that as a result of that uh change and replacement it didn't result in any responsibility change on behalf of the greater London Authority um not as with regard to resilience there were clearly other things for the authority that
00:19:53 other things for the authority that changed as a result of that governance change now the inquiry has heard um evidence uh from Mr Hetherington regarding the structure of the London resilience Arrangements the London
00:20:05 resilience Arrangements the London resilience partnership the group and the London resilience forum and its subset structures including sector panels would you agree that these structural arrangements are
00:20:16 arrangements are complex I'm I'm not sure I would no can you assist the inquiry with who has responsibility for creating these structures um that sit within the broad
00:20:27 structures um that sit within the broad term London resilience and by that I mean the London resilience group The lrp the London resilience partnership and the London resilience Forum it would be the London resilience Forum because these structures are there to you know
00:20:39 these structures are there to you know their duty to cooperate and carry out their respective responsibilities under the act and
00:20:45 guidance now I'd like to uh move on to the role of the mayor of London and the um greater London Authority and that is addressed in chapter nine of the statutory guidance
00:20:57 chapter nine of the statutory guidance emergency prep comp parness uh which is dated March 2012 if we could go to lfb 30 611
00:21:10 30 611 71 this is uh chapter nine of the statutory guidance emergency preparedness and if we could go to page 11 paragraph
00:21:21 11 paragraph 9.22 we can see here it gives us some indication as to what the role of the mayor of London and the greater London Authority is it says as the elected leader of London's Regional government
00:21:33 leader of London's Regional government the mayor of London plays a full part in supporting the effective implementation of the act and improving the preparedness of the capital in particular the mayor GLA is closely
00:21:45 particular the mayor GLA is closely engaged in high level discussions and decisions relating to the management of emergencies in London or an appointed Deputy is currently chair of the lrf contributes as necessary to the
00:21:57 contributes as necessary to the pre-information of London about the content of emergency plans the correct behavior in emergency and good practice in terms of preparedness in the home as part of initiatives organized both
00:22:08 part of initiatives organized both locally and at the UK level prepares a to play a key role in warning warning and informing the public during an emergency in London and takes
00:22:19 emergency in London and takes responsibility for civil protection issues in connection with the management of Parliament and Trafalga squares and if we can go to the next page
00:22:31 uh the GLA is a category one responder under the act and as such has these same responsibilities as other category one responders however there are a number of Duties that the GLA currently takes in
00:22:44 Duties that the GLA currently takes in relation to London that are additional to other category one responders we're just pausing there for a moment before we go on to the next part it the statutory guidance doesn't list the mayor of London as a category one
00:22:56 mayor of London as a category one responder does it um it didn't well it says the GLA is and as we've discussed the mayor of London is a part of the of the GLA and has essentially the
00:23:07 the GLA and has essentially the executive responsibility there so for my purposes the two would be synonymous it goes on at 9.25 in particular the GLA is responsible for the Secretariat of the lrf the London
00:23:20 the Secretariat of the lrf the London resilience Forum that is is responsible for producing and maintaining a pan London risk assessment and Publishing all or part of it in line with regul s and is responsible for the planning and
00:23:31 and is responsible for the planning and exercising of pan London emergency Arrangements plans freak plans um I'd like to uh move on to a
00:23:43 plans um I'd like to uh move on to a document that you make uh reference to in your statement and you corrected this morning it's the Strategic coordination protocol uh you mentioned uh this
00:23:54 protocol uh you mentioned uh this morning that in your statement you referred to version 6.5 uh but in fact that there was a more upto-date version that was in place at the time of the fire and I'd like to take you to that it's rbk 30
00:24:15 36718 this is uh version 7.3 we can see and it's dated February 2017 can you see that yes uh I'd like to take you to page 25 please
00:24:30 and if we could look at paragraph 2.89 first it says there the mayor of London and the greater London Authority in the event of any disruptive incident it is likely that the mayor's office
00:24:43 it is likely that the mayor's office will require initial and regular information about the situation this function is usually will usually be carried out by the London resilience group in conjunction with the relevant lead response organizations and by the
00:24:55 lead response organizations and by the mayor's press office in addition the mayor May obtain specific advice at a senior level through the mayor's Advisory
00:25:04 Group it then goes on to say uh the mayor will collaborate closely with the Strategic coordinating group and where appropriate central government the mayor will also be invited to attend meetings
00:25:15 will also be invited to attend meetings of Cobra just pausing there for one moment if I may is the mayor of London's attendance at a cobra meeting uh automatic no it's at the ultimate
00:25:26 automatic no it's at the ultimate discretion of the Prime Minister um although um I think the guidelines now in place not necessar at the time but now in place are you recommend to the Prime Minister that that be the case and
00:25:37 Prime Minister that that be the case and what about ministerial meetings uh as as the type that occurred in response to the grenfell tower fire was it automatic that the mayor of London would attend a meeting of that nature um no I mean it's
00:25:50 meeting of that nature um no I mean it's entirely a matter for the the ministers convening the meeting going back to 2.8 uh 11 the mayor of London has a key response role
00:26:02 mayor of London has a key response role as the voice of London the role of the mayor is to support the operational response to an emergency in London by providing a unified statement a voice for London it will be the mayor's role
00:26:13 for London it will be the mayor's role to provide Regional information and reassurance throughout the duration of the response and into the initial stages of the recovery phase this role is complimentary to and in support of local
00:26:25 complimentary to and in support of local responders and operational spokespeople it then goes on to talk about uh how that
00:26:33 occurs the first time um Mr Bellamy would you agree with me firstly that this term the term mayor of London didn't occur in the statutory guidance
00:26:44 didn't occur in the statutory guidance emergency preparedness that we looked at a moment
00:26:47 a moment earlier um I mean the say it comes back to what we talked about earlier the the GL is the is the is the corporate body and then the the May of London is essentially the executive arm of the of
00:26:58 essentially the executive arm of the of the GLA and so you know it's a it's a clarification this document for people that you know within the G it would be the mayor of London who is taking on these responsibilities not the London
00:27:10 these responsibilities not the London assembly uh thank you the question I was I was asking I'll uh try try it again uh the term voice of London uh that is used here in this strategic coordination
00:27:22 here in this strategic coordination protocol it doesn't appear in the emergency preparedness document that we looked at does it um not directly but I think there are you know responsibilities that the GAA has set
00:27:33 responsibilities that the GAA has set out in that guidance that speak to it but the term doesn't appear can you help us with what your understanding of the term voice of London means and I think it's it's very
00:27:45 London means and I think it's it's very much what it said there it's um yeah it's it's speaking to londoners and on behalf of London of course it ranges much more widely National and international interest in these things
00:27:57 international interest in these things really to contextualize what is happening and give londoners the information that they need to understand what has happened and how it might impact on
00:28:07 impact on them you it's I should say it is you know it is clearly distinct as is said there from Communications from other responders that may be more tightly focused on the scene and those more
00:28:18 focused on the scene and those more directly impacted by the
00:28:22 incident does the uh mayor of London or the GLA have an operational role in an emergency what's your understanding no with the possible
00:28:34 understanding no with the possible exception of if there were a major incident on GLA land so obviously you saw in the statutory Guidance the um mentions of Trafalga square and Parliament Square which um the GLA is
00:28:45 Parliament Square which um the GLA is responsible for but in the general case I would say
00:28:50 no um I'd like to move on then to events on the 14th of June if I may um your League John Paul Graham was the duty officer that night is that correct
00:29:04 officer that night is that correct yes um at the time of the fire he was the city operations and uh major mayor events lead at the greater London Authority is that right major events
00:29:15 Authority is that right major events lead major events in his um statement I'll take you to it it's GLA 704
00:29:28 we can see there at paragraph 4 um he says this in in this role this is paragraph four the second line at the end of the second line in this role I
00:29:40 end of the second line in this role I supported the mayor chief of staff and mayoral directors by providing high level support and advice in relation to Major incidents and Rising tide civil contingency type scenarios I also led
00:29:53 contingency type scenarios I also led the gla's involvement in the Strategic oversight and delivery of major and high impact events across London is that right
00:30:04 yes how experienced uh would you consider he was in relation to dealing with serious incidents and attending strategic coordination group meetings at the time of the
00:30:15 the time of the fire um it's hard for me to um comment on his on the level of experience he had as of May 2016 because of course I wasn't I wasn't privy to it um I would
00:30:27 wasn't I wasn't privy to it um I would say that yeah he was experienced in attending strategic coordinating groups um that occurred since then um and yeah had you know had good contacts around
00:30:40 had you know had good contacts around you know category one Category 2 responders particularly the G group to support him carrying out that role um he was first made aware of the
00:30:51 role um he was first made aware of the fire at 9 Minutes p 3 by the then London Fire commissioner is that right I believe so uh both you and the mayor of London were contacted by Ali Pickton
00:31:04 London were contacted by Ali Pickton head of the mayor's private office and you say in your statement that the mayor was notified between 3:20 to 3:30 can you recall what time you were notified I
00:31:15 you recall what time you were notified I believe it's
00:31:18 3:26 that's very precise it's the moment one doesn't forget yes I'm sure could I ask you next about the Strategic coordination group protocol uh
00:31:30 Strategic coordination group protocol uh well I've asked you about the Strategic coordination group protocol I'd like to ask you about the scg meetings um we can see here if I could take you to lfb
00:31:43 20237 69 and Page seven
00:31:55 please if we could go to page seven
00:32:02 looking um at this diagram at the top of the page I'm not sure if we can zoom in thank
00:32:11 you we can see here that the greater London Authority at about the 10:00 on that on this diagram it is shown as a uh
00:32:22 that on this diagram it is shown as a uh part of the composition of of an scg is that right yes
00:32:31 now the greater London Authority had its own uh civil contingencies response plan at the time of the fire didn't it it did and I'm going to take you to that document now it's m Mo
00:32:48 6040 we can see there it's the full title is the uh major incident and civil contingencies response protocol the mayor of London 's gold cell and it's
00:32:59 mayor of London 's gold cell and it's dated November 2016 I'm going to refer to it as a civil contingencies plan um if we can go to page 16
00:33:16 please it sets out there the role of the um duty
00:33:21 um duty officer um it says the GLA um G the the duty gold officer needs to be contactable at all times whilst on call uh it then goes to say uh that they
00:33:34 call uh it then goes to say uh that they need to write down the information known at the time and establishing the reason that they are invoking the mayor's gold cell is that what that m mgc stands for I believe sir uh record the date and
00:33:45 I believe sir uh record the date and time of the notification start recording details and actions taken and transfer of the mgc incident log once available uh it then goes on to give um practical
00:33:56 uh it then goes on to give um practical advice as to um where meetings should take place is it also um the role of the GL duty officer to attend an
00:34:07 duty officer to attend an scg um that yes we they normally would do
00:34:12 do that is it right that uh Mr Graham attended the first three meetings on the 14th of June followed by Emma strain who is the assistant director of external relations at the greater London
00:34:24 relations at the greater London Authority uh she attended all other scg during the 14th to the 20th of June save for the 18th which you yourself attended is that right that's right
00:34:36 yes I'd like to um ask you next about the mayor's Gold group if I may if we can go to page 12 on this
00:34:50 document uh we can see here at paragraph 4 I'd like to take you to the second parag RH of that because it tells us what the MCG mgc is it says it's
00:35:03 what the MCG mgc is it says it's designed to ensure that the mayor is well informed about any major incident or Rising tide situation in London and so allow him to effectively carry out his role in acting as a spokesperson for
00:35:15 his role in acting as a spokesperson for the capital as well as providing Civic leadership and reassurance it will also support them in fulfilling the other responsibilities of the office of Mayor of London during a crisis for example
00:35:26 of London during a crisis for example establishing a disaster appeal fund and then goes on to set out at appendix a who uh the members of the gold cell
00:35:36 are if we could go to over the next page to page 13 and look at paragraph 4.2 it tells us uh when the mayor's gold
00:35:47 4.2 it tells us uh when the mayor's gold cell will be activated uh we normally invoked once a major incident has been declared by an emergency service in London alternatively there may be occasions where the mgc is activated in
00:35:59 occasions where the mgc is activated in response to a rising tide event such as flu pandemic severe weather warning impending widespread industrial action or anticipated public disorder and then
00:36:10 or anticipated public disorder and then just um finally if we can go to page 19 please of this
00:36:19 document uh we can see here who the permanent members of the mayor mayor's gold cell are um we can see that you are listed as chair Mr Graham is listed as
00:36:31 listed as chair Mr Graham is listed as is M strain is that right yes uh the mayor's gold cell was activated in the early hours of the morning by Mr Graham is that correct it
00:36:43 is now there are a number of um passages next of Mr Gran's witness statement I would like to take you to um starting uh with page seven so that's GLA 704
00:37:00 and if we can go to page seven paragraph 35
00:37:10 please he says the following about the 14th of June 6:30 scg I recall the Royal burough of Kensington and Chelsea rbkc provided an
00:37:24 Kensington and Chelsea rbkc provided an update during the meeting stating that they were in the process of consolidating rest centers into one Center rbkc also said that their gold group would be meeting at 11:00 I was
00:37:36 group would be meeting at 11:00 I was very shocked to hear that rbkc had not already held a gold group and were not planning to do so for another 4 and a half hours rbkc were the responsible local Authority dealing with a very
00:37:48 local Authority dealing with a very serious incident which clearly required a strategic response from a SE from Senior Management from its Senior Management he goes on in the next paragraph paragraph 36 to say this the
00:38:02 paragraph paragraph 36 to say this the fact that the rbkc Gold group was not scheduled until 11 made me consider they were not necessarily coping with the demands of the incident even at this early stage I felt that on one hand rbkc
00:38:15 early stage I felt that on one hand rbkc were giving the impression that they were in control of the situation for example referring to arrangements for rest centers but on the other hand the timing of their first gold group meeting suggested a lack of any iic Direction at
00:38:31 rbkc now Mr Bellamy was this information relayed to you um I don't I don't recall um whe whether it was um included in the update
00:38:43 whether it was um included in the update from the scg meeting um I never had the chance really to have much more discussion with Mr Graham beyond that point because as you know um his his he found out his mother died and so
00:38:55 found out his mother died and so obviously came off duty uh he went off at duty at 10:00 that morning around then yes if uh these concerns had been um
00:39:07 yes if uh these concerns had been um relayed to you do you think there was something that you might have done in response to it it's hard it's hard to say what you would I definitely have done something I
00:39:18 would I definitely have done something I don't think I can say I I definitely would have um it certainly would be you know a piece of intelligence that you and situational awareness that would help me to understand the
00:39:29 that would help me to understand the picture and that perhaps not everything was going as it should be well uh let's see if we can uh help at all paragraph 39 of Mr Graham's
00:39:41 at all paragraph 39 of Mr Graham's statement that we have in front of us still go over thank you uh we can see in the second uh second line the end of the second line I do not recall raising my
00:39:52 second line I do not recall raising my concerns with RB KC's timing for its first gold cell meeting as I was focused on relaying updates from the scg meeting and organizing what the mayor needed to do that morning um so we know um that's
00:40:04 do that morning um so we know um that's what Mr grah Graham's position is that he can't recall at the time he provided this statement uh whether he relayed that information or not and I'd just like to explore this with you Mr Bellamy
00:40:15 like to explore this with you Mr Bellamy if I may um we know um because you say so in your statement and you've provided us with um documentation to support that that the mayor's gold cell meeting was held at 8:00 on the 14th of June is that
00:40:29 held at 8:00 on the 14th of June is that right yes I'd like to take you to M Mo 709
00:40:40 please we can see here that these are actions uh from the gold cell meeting but they at the top of the page it tells us who was present and we can see that you ched that meeting um that Mr gram
00:40:54 you ched that meeting um that Mr gram also attended that meeting is that right yes uh was the meeting convened especially for the grenfall tower fire it was were any concerns about the local
00:41:05 it was were any concerns about the local Authority expressed at this meeting by anyone I don't recall that meeting do you consider if anyone present had formed concerns about the local Authority at this early stage this would
00:41:17 Authority at this early stage this would have been an appropriate forum for raising
00:41:20 raising it I word with the qualification that um given the scale of the incident and we're a very early stage um one wouldn't necessarily expect you know everything
00:41:32 necessarily expect you know everything about the local authorities performance to to be perfect and so again you know colleagues would be trying to form you know overall situational awareness and I guess see whether there was anything in that context that gave them concern on
00:41:44 that context that gave them concern on one interpretation Mr Bellamy this could be a missed opportunity would you agree with
00:41:50 with that it would be it would be a missed opportunity if yes if um you know if you took the um rbkc decision not to have a gold group until 11 as a major indicator
00:42:02 gold group until 11 as a major indicator of their
00:42:06 problems um it's also a fact isn't it that these concerns with Mr Graham that he expresses in his statement are not recorded contemporaneously in a meeting or a note are
00:42:18 or a note are they so there's I mean he would have taken a note of the scg and I believe that would have been circulated by email um the yeah you've got in front of us the only record we have of the gold cell
00:42:31 the only record we have of the gold cell meeting well just going back to the um civil contingencies protocol for one moment if we may that's M Mo 60's 40 we've looked at it already if I can take you to page 16
00:42:44 MH um we can see here the responsibilities um of the GLA gold officer um that they it's a second
00:42:56 gold officer um that they it's a second bullet Point uh forgive me sorry the first bullet point we can see that write down the information known at the time and establishing the reason that they were invoking the mgc record the date
00:43:07 were invoking the mgc record the date and time of that notification and the second bullet point start recording details and actions taken and transferred to the mgc incident log once
00:43:18 transferred to the mgc incident log once available Mr Graham compiled a note uh between 4:30 and 10:00 a.m. uh which we can see here that's M Mo
00:43:36 639 this is the uh note that he prepared setting out the information that he was receiving if we can scroll through it I hope you can accept from me m Mr Bellamy
00:43:48 hope you can accept from me m Mr Bellamy that it doesn't refer to any concerns in this document does it it's it's very much a factual record of um yeah what was
00:43:58 was happening it doesn't record his concerns does it it does not whilst we are on the topic of notes um could I invite you to go back to the
00:44:11 um could I invite you to go back to the Civil contingencies protocol please M Mo 640 at page
00:44:21 15 we can see here in your own um protocol at paragraph 4.4 it refers to recordkeeping and it says this it's just
00:44:32 recordkeeping and it says this it's just the first paragraph I'm going to read to you maintaining maintaining an accurate record of key events actions and decisions together with their reasons is Paramount and the mgc operations
00:44:43 Paramount and the mgc operations director will appoint a dedicated log keeper now this didn't occur in response to the grenfell to Tower fire no incident log was Kept For the gold sell is that right that's
00:44:55 is that right that's correct there are are no informal or formal minutes of the mgc meetings either are there not be on the action list that you've seen um the actions
00:45:07 list that you've seen um the actions we've already looked at and we can see that uh there is no record there of any concerns held by Mr gry or anyone else for for that matter um in fact uh the first time that
00:45:21 matter um in fact uh the first time that any concerns or any actions arising from concerns about the response are seen on the 16th of June would you agree with that well I would need to read let take
00:45:33 that well I would need to read let take you well yeah I'm sure there will be on 16th of June I'm sure what you say is right I haven't you know got all of those actions in front of me to check but I have no reason to disagree I
00:45:44 but I have no reason to disagree I assume you're right can you assist us uh then why no incident log or minutes were kept um yeah I think I need to give you a bit of
00:45:56 yeah I think I need to give you a bit of conf um context around this protocol so um when we when we came into office and you asked me about training and so forth earlier none of this procedure
00:46:08 earlier none of this procedure existed and so through you know through my initial training I would you know I would you
00:46:14 would you know had had some feeling that there needed to be a bit more here than there was and indeed there was an instant response framework put together in July as a 16 as a response to my
00:46:28 as a 16 as a response to my concerns we then had in the Autumn a couple of major incidents so there was the attempted bombing on the Jubilee line and there was the um tram crash in
00:46:39 line and there was the um tram crash in cuden and really out of that experience it became it became clear to us that um we needed you to for the the way for the mayor to carry out his responsibility as
00:46:52 mayor to carry out his responsibility as the voice of London um we needed kind of clearer processes in place and so the purpose of writing this protocol was to set those out and the start aspects of
00:47:03 set those out and the start aspects of it were necessarily somewhat aspirational because the resource wasn't there to do it as we discussed earlier for instance Mr Graham this was you this side of things was only part of his job
00:47:15 side of things was only part of his job he had other significant responsibilities as well and that's the resourcing level um we um we had and so at the time of of the fire we were
00:47:26 at the time of of the fire we were implementing various points of it you see that in him keeping the initial record but we hadn't got to the arrangements where there was anybody trained and in place to act as a log
00:47:38 trained and in place to act as a log keeper so that didn't [Music]
00:47:40 [Music] happen would it be fair to say then that um you were not familiar with your own civil contingencies procedures at the time I no I would I would say fa say
00:47:52 time I no I would I would say fa say that we weren't in full compliance with them
00:47:58 was this a case of um knowing what the book said so to speak but not having resources to implement it at that stage or do you think people just overlooked
00:48:09 or do you think people just overlooked the book I think um I think it's a case primarily I think that you know there was possibly more to do in terms of training and embedding um some of the
00:48:21 training and embedding um some of the protocol I think it's also a factor as I say yes very constrained resources and a period where we'd had um the terror attack at Westminster we'd had the
00:48:32 attack at Westminster we'd had the Manchester Arena attack and the consequent move to critical um Threat Level which had an impact on London um and the London Bridge bur Market terror attack and so there was an awful lot
00:48:43 attack and so there was an awful lot that was you know we were dealing with responding and you that obviously took away what limited capacity we had from the right how do we get to the full
00:48:54 the right how do we get to the full implementation of our of our Pro call um you know we now do have um 24/7 members of Staff who are trained to keep instant logs and indeed we're currently
00:49:05 logs and indeed we're currently implementing specialist software to enable them to do so thank
00:49:11 so thank you you've answered my next question um could I move on to the 830 um scg and I'd like to take you to Mr Graham's statement again that's GLA um
00:49:25 704 page
00:49:29 8 paragraph
00:49:33 41 he says the following uh from the scg meeting at 8:30 I recall explaining at the meeting that the mayor intended to visit the site given his responsibilities to act
00:49:45 site given his responsibilities to act as the voice of London Mr Holgate seemed very interested in my proposal and insisted that rbkc be involved in any such Arrangements I was very surprised
00:49:56 such Arrangements I was very surprised at this
00:49:57 at this and it seemed again to reinforce rbk's skewed priorities in the aftermath of the fire Mr Holgate seemed to be more preoccupied on this call with minor issues such as the mayor's proposed
00:50:09 issues such as the mayor's proposed visit to the scene and the possible attendance of Nicholas padet Brown the leader of rbkc rather than more important strategic issues regarding the handling of this crisis Mr Holgate was
00:50:21 handling of this crisis Mr Holgate was insistent that Mr it goes over the page that Mr padet Brown should be present for any visit by the mayor this was an
00:50:32 for any visit by the mayor this was an issue I would need to discuss further with colleagues at the GLA he then says in the next paragraph As noted in the minutes the update
00:50:43 As noted in the minutes the update provided by rbkc focused on rest centers and the provision of referral numbers for displaced people these are issues which we which will be relevant for any major incidents for example evacuation
00:50:54 major incidents for example evacuation of residents due to a World War II bomb however there did not seem to be any acknowledgement by rbkc of the apparent scale of this incident rbkc certainly did not ask for any assistance from
00:51:06 did not ask for any assistance from other partner agencies during uh this call the final paragraph that I'd like to take you to from his statement is at paragraph 44 on this page I remained
00:51:18 paragraph 44 on this page I remained concerned that rbkc was still lacking any strategic direction for this crisis particularly given its first gold group meeting with was not due to start for another 2 and 1/2 hours the next scg was
00:51:31 another 2 and 1/2 hours the next scg was arranged for 2:00 can you recall Mr Bellamy if this information was related to you no I don't believe it was would you have expected concerns of
00:51:44 was would you have expected concerns of this nature to have been brought to your attention um I I would I think the explanation for why follows in Mr Gram's statement
00:51:56 statement uh we can uh come on to that um we don't need to to turn to it now but he deals with it in his witness statement and you do too but for personal reasons Mr Graham handed over his GLA duty officer
00:52:09 Graham handed over his GLA duty officer role to Emma strain he says it around 10:00 10:30 on the 14th of June I'd like to focus on the events uh before he handed over his role if I
00:52:21 handed over his role if I may um Mr Graham set up a WhatsApp group group uh and he deals with this at paragraph 26 of his witness statement I don't think we uh need to go to it now
00:52:34 don't think we uh need to go to it now but is it right that there was a WhatsApp group for the May's mayor's Gold group sell for the mayor's gold cell yes it predated the fire um we can see if I can take you to
00:52:46 fire um we can see if I can take you to please GLA
00:52:54 854 this is a type transcript of these messages and it runs to some 68 pages um I'm not going to go through all of those but could I just
00:53:06 through all of those but could I just highlight some of those messages so on page one we can see the 14th of June 319 John Paul Gray major incident fire at grandell Tower w11 40 pump incident
00:53:18 at grandell Tower w11 40 pump incident 60 people missing there will be Mass fatalities um if we can then go to page five please
00:53:30 uh we can see a message here at 552 John Paul Graham says strategic coordination group gold cell call Gold call forgive me and update from lfb
00:53:42 call forgive me and update from lfb commissioner updated circulated by email can you see that yes um next could I take you to uh page seven
00:53:53 please we can see there towards the bottom of the page at 8:32 a message from Mr John Paul Graham RB rbk and C are having their first gold group meet having their first gold
00:54:05 group meet having their first gold meeting will be at 11: can you see that yes and finally to page nine
00:54:17 please at 10:05 Mr gram says this message uh they are doing a systematic search of the building for survivors and have reached the 13th floor this search
00:54:28 have reached the 13th floor this search is for survivors only so we can see his last message uh was at 10:05 uh without uh going through every single one of them would you accept that there is no reference to concerns on the
00:54:40 there is no reference to concerns on the morning of the 14th of June I would yes and do you accept that this would have been an appropriate channel to express any
00:54:48 any concerns it was it was a possible Channel um or yes it could have been done in the meeting or he could have come to see me directly
00:54:59 have you um since the gr grenfell toi considered your own civil contingencies response procedures in terms of raising concerns about a category one responder if there were any so we are currently
00:55:11 if there were any so we are currently engaged in the process of completely rewriting the protocol as you know part of a fundamental review Taking in board learnings not only from
00:55:22 learnings not only from 2017 but also um work on you know relating to no deal brexit and covid-19 um which obviously major incidents have been preoccupying us for the last two years so yeah we're in engaged in a very
00:55:35 years so yeah we're in engaged in a very major um overhaul of those at the
00:55:40 moment I'd like to um ask you next um about uh Miss Katherine Hammond from the Civil contingency Secretariat um could I take you um to
00:55:51 Secretariat um could I take you um to cab
00:55:54 cab 43021 please
00:56:04 we can see here it's the um second email on the
00:56:09 on the page small small email forgive me sorry let's go to the top of the page 14th of June it's an email at 805 um we can see it was addressed to
00:56:21 805 um we can see it was addressed to you from Katherine Hammond and if we can go down if you can look further down on the 14th of June at 7:45 uh we can see that you sent an email uh to miss Hammond saying here's
00:56:33 email uh to miss Hammond saying here's the latest update we had C casualty information is confidential and below that we can see that this was the uh readout or the overview of the secg uh
00:56:44 readout or the overview of the secg uh from Mr Graham is that right yes um I think some of that will be information he had before the first scg but yes that's the that's the view he had at that time
00:56:56 he had at that time um if we can go um to day to the transcript of Miss Hammond's evidence please it's day
00:57:04 281 page 37 line three
00:57:21 please so this is um Miss Miss Hammond's evidence to the inquire last week and at line
00:57:30 at line three if we can see line three and she's asked about going to her
00:57:39 statement and she goes on to say forgive
00:57:52 me bear with me one moment should be day 28 1 page
00:58:01 37 yes I can see
00:58:14 that forgive me we may have to come back may have to come back to that u in her evidence I hope you'll accept it from me um that Miss Hammond says that she was in regular contact with you um during
00:58:26 in regular contact with you um during the uh response to the grenfall tower fire would you agree with that um so I know I mean I I would agree that she stated it indeed I can see it
00:58:37 that she stated it indeed I can see it on on my screen her um evidence there um we've seen an email between us so definitely we were in touch I have a recollection of being in
00:58:49 touch I have a recollection of being in a meeting room at the then City Hall on the phone to miss hermond I'm not I believe that would during the grandell incident but I'm not certain it could have been another
00:59:00 have been another one and I would have seen her on in the margins of the minerial meetings as well well she says that she recalls being in touch with you periodically over a
00:59:11 touch with you periodically over a number of days I doesn't sound to me as though you would uh disagree with that I I I wouldn't disagree it's certainly possible
00:59:20 possible yeah was it part of your role and responsibility to update the Civil contingency Secretariat no uh was this out of convention or was
00:59:32 no uh was this out of convention or was there a duty on you no this was this was entirely kind of you good partnership working the formal updates of course should have come from the the government representative on the scg who then would
00:59:44 representative on the scg who then would have fed back into the Civil contingency Secretariat why is it that you felt the need to update Miss Hammond um well clearly it's a it's a very major incident don't and um we
00:59:58 very major incident don't and um we always strive to work closely with the center of government in such circumstances and um you it's always possible that you know a different parties have different additional
01:00:09 parties have different additional sources of information and or different you know things can get conveyed sometimes perhaps slightly differently or not fully from an scg and just you know then in terms of what parties may
01:00:21 know then in terms of what parties may be doing about that it's just good to be in touch
01:00:26 in touch did the um did you and the GLA and the mayor of London's office have a good working relationship with the CCS um I think it was would be a very limited relationship I think we you know
01:00:39 limited relationship I think we you know we probably only would deal there in in context of incidents but they would certainly reach out to us if if we could help with something but obviously normally they would go through dclg and
01:00:51 normally they would go through dclg and through them to the resilience forum
01:00:59 I would like to um move on to the first Min ministerial meeting so we're moving on in time then please on the 14th of June to 4:00 in the afternoon which is when the first ministerial meeting took
01:01:12 when the first ministerial meeting took place um the mayor of London dialed into that first meeting uh it was chaired by uh Mr Nicholas herd and you attended in person is that right correct um I'd like
01:01:25 person is that right correct um I'd like i' to take you to your statement please at page
01:01:36 16 that's M Mo 6025 page 16 and paragraph 75
01:01:48 please you say here a ministerial meeting was convened by central government at 4:00 on the 14th of June 2017
01:01:56 2017 this was not a cobra meeting the meeting was chaired by Nick herd minister of State at the home office the mayor dialed into the meeting I attended on on his behalf in case there were any problems with the conference call system
01:02:08 problems with the conference call system the chief executive of raw burough of Kensington and Chelsea RB KC also dialed into the meeting the meeting was attended by um several ministers um now Mr Bellamy the the panel have heard
01:02:20 Mr Bellamy the the panel have heard evidence that in fact Mr Holgate well directly from Mr Holgate himself self that he did not attend this meeting um you say in your statement that he did
01:02:31 you say in your statement that he did Darin do you think you may be wrong about this I think I may be wrong yes I yeah um yeah I've seen over evidence yes yes he didn't would you have expected him to attend this
01:02:43 him to attend this meeting
01:02:44 meeting yes do you recall anyone mentioning his absence I don't I have very limited recall of that meeting can we take it therefore that that you didn't raise his absence with
01:02:56 that you didn't raise his absence with anybody not that I
01:03:01 recall the inquiry has heard evidence from Miss Hammond uh of the CCS who we've referred to before um that there are two versions of the ministerial
01:03:13 are two versions of the ministerial minutes of this meeting in one version which I'll take you to now it's cab3 13811
01:03:26 if you can look at the um bottom of this page these are the minutes from the 14th of June at uh subsection B Under The Heading immediate shelter and medium-term
01:03:37 medium-term rehousing at the bottom of that paragraph it says the mayor of London pressed for further reassurance and requested that contact was made with the local Council to ensure that effective
01:03:50 local Council to ensure that effective individuals are not left without accommodation can you see that yes
01:04:00 and if I can take you to another version of those minutes at cab
01:04:13 42714 under that uh same section subsection B of the minutes uh we can see that that does not appear can you see
01:04:22 see that yeah I can see it's not there now the mayor of London in his statement I'd like to take you to it uh it's m Mo
01:04:39 50189 and if I could take you to page8
01:04:46 please paragraph 30 where he says this I remember that at the meeting I repeatedly emphasized the need to consider as an urgent priority the implications of the fire for other
01:04:58 the implications of the fire for other people living in high-rise buildings across London and the whole of the country it was clear that people living in those buildings would be feeling very anxious and distressed and an urgent
01:05:09 anxious and distressed and an urgent investigation was needed so that some reassurance could be provided a swift assessment of how many block similar blocks that were there were ac across the country needed to be made given that
01:05:22 the country needed to be made given that many had been refurbished or reclad I ear urged the importance of this being coordinated from central government given that it was a national issue and stated that a clear message from
01:05:34 stated that a clear message from government that this was underway was vital um he then goes on to say um in the next paragraph of his statement at paragraph 31 I have seen a note of the
01:05:47 paragraph 31 I have seen a note of the meeting of the 14th of June which has been exhibited to the witness statement of Miss Katherine Hammond of the cabinet office and has been disclosed to the the inquiry he then gives the UR as far as I
01:05:59 inquiry he then gives the UR as far as I can remember this note accurately reflects the the discussion at the
01:06:10 meeting I'd like to um see if we can explore this a little bit further further more because in his statement it's not clear whether the mayor of London has seen the uh minich where
01:06:22 London has seen the uh minich where comment is attributed to him but I would like to take you to a handwritten note now that we've been uh provided for and this is a note that the mayor of London
01:06:33 this is a note that the mayor of London uh his head of private office Ali Pickton produced following a debrief of this meeting and we can see that at M Mo
01:06:43 Mo 6's
01:06:50 181 this is the handwritten note and we can see there in the middle of the page SK and Nick
01:07:01 SK and Nick herd concern about other buildings and residence in tall blocks rescue and recovery on the ground and I'm not you might have to assist us with what that
01:07:13 might have to assist us with what that says close contact lfb I imagine that's the mayor saying that he was in close contact with the fire brigade and then this is a priority but but need to know
01:07:24 this is a priority but but need to know calls to reassure people in other blocks is that right yes whilst we can see rescue and recovery and this is a priority there doesn't appear to be in
01:07:36 priority there doesn't appear to be in this note at least any mention of concerns regarding the response would you agree with that not in that note no although it does talk about your rescue and recovery on the ground as
01:07:47 rescue and recovery on the ground as being a priority but it doesn't yeah give any specific concerns um now the inquiry has heard about the GLA over site committee meetings um and we will
01:07:58 site committee meetings um and we will come to those again in due course um but for now in your evidence to the oversight committee on the 23rd of November 2017 I can take you uh to the
01:08:09 November 2017 I can take you uh to the transcript that's
01:08:16 m607 we can see here this is a transcript of um that meeting where you gave evidence as well as Mr baradel and others uh and if I um could take you
01:08:28 others uh and if I um could take you please to page seven of this
01:08:34 transcript at the bottom of page seven we have a record of of what you were
01:08:41 saying and towards the bottom of it you say this if we can go over to the next page
01:08:51 please at the top of that page you say it is fair to say that on the Wednesday day there were a lot of people getting their heads around things the mayor at the meeting on Wednesday asked a lot of
01:09:02 the meeting on Wednesday asked a lot of questions and was pushing for a lot of action are you referring here to the ministerial meeting at 4:00 on the 14th of June I was
01:09:13 yes before I um actually ask you a question about that meeting and what the mayor of London may or may not have said um could I take you um to your note of
01:09:24 um could I take you um to your note of that meeting think it's at m501
01:09:35 151 um such as it is is this your note of that ministerial meeting it is very brief because the the mayor and colleagues were on the call so I didn't need to note much
01:09:47 need to note much down can you assist with what questions and actions the mayor of London raised at that meeting at 4:00 on the 14th of June
01:09:56 June so at this distance my recollection is very much what I said to the oversight committee that the mayor you know was was really you know raising a number of points and um pressing you know for
01:10:07 points and um pressing you know for things to be done um repeatedly I know that there were you two things in the draft minutes I'm sure he did raise those um I've no doubt he raised other things I can't I'm afraid remember the
01:10:20 things I can't I'm afraid remember the specifics and I'm afraid I never saw those minutes either the draft version or the final version until I Was preparing to give evidence to the inquiry I believe they weren't circulated at the
01:10:33 circulated at the time well so I'm about um to move on perhaps now as a convenient moment for a break does it suit you yes it does right well Mr Bel we do have a break during the morning and this is a good time to
01:10:45 the morning and this is a good time to take it so we'll stop there we'll resume at 25 to 12: please and I have to ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it while you're out of the room of course
01:10:56 while you're out of the room of course all right thank you very much would you go with the Usher
01:11:07 please thank you very much 25 to 12 thank
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01:27:00 would you ask Mr Bellamy to come back in
01:27:14 please right Mr bam you ready to carry on I am thank you thank you very much yes M
01:27:20 yes M MRA well Mr Bellamy we we talked about events the afternoon of the 14th of June I'd like now to turn to the evening of the 14th of June um at 6:15 the mayor
01:27:31 the 14th of June um at 6:15 the mayor spoke with the Secretary of State for dclg and we can see a readout of this call which was circulated at 656 I'll take you to that readout it's
01:27:42 656 I'll take you to that readout it's at CLG
01:27:52 43011 we can see here um section I want to take you to hi all please find a quick readout of the Secretary of State call with the mayor of London below Sadi
01:28:04 call with the mayor of London below Sadi khah dialed into the first ministerial meeting chaired by Nick herd this afternoon and it goes on to say um that he was impressed with the government's
01:28:15 he was impressed with the government's response so far um there's then a discussion about rehousing and the fire brigade where the mayor of London flagged whether there was enough counseling facilities for the
01:28:28 firefighters were you on this call no it doesn't appear as though you were copied into this readout either is that right that's a government readout so no this
01:28:40 that's a government readout so no this was an internal dclg email is that correct
01:28:44 correct yes are you um able to say uh what impressed the mayor of London about central government response at that stage was there any discussion that he had with
01:28:54 had with you uh
01:28:57 you uh no I'd like to take you to the uh mayor of London's statement please that's m501 189 and take you to page
01:29:14 8 and if we can look at paragraph 32 uh the mayor of London says this I remember that I spoke to Sag Javid at 15 on the 14th of June
01:29:26 on the 14th of June 2017 as I had visited the grenfell tower area earlier that day our discussion first reflected my experiences during that visit and my deep concern about the
01:29:37 that visit and my deep concern about the situation faced by the bereaved survivors and others in the local community having seen the chaos on the ground I recall I expressed the need for a single point of contact and advice for
01:29:49 a single point of contact and advice for the local community and for Visible if we can go over the page
01:29:56 for Visible support from local and national government I recall suggesting that a OneStop shop for advice and support be put in place to help those um
01:30:07 support be put in place to help those um who were seeking support who were Desperately Seeking support
01:30:16 um could I next take you to a note that's M Mo 50182 please
01:30:29 this is a note um by Ali Picton and we can see at the um towards the bottom of the page it says SJ I think that is single point access phone line
01:30:42 single point access phone line established One-Stop shop visible support on ground followup on list of cladding buildings in London London councils can help is that MH can can you
01:30:53 councils can help is that MH can can you just will be mhclg yes uh although at the the time I believe they weren't called mhclg they were dclg at the time of the fire um it says legal support and
01:31:06 of the fire um it says legal support and assistance and need for public inquiry um bearing in mind the mayor of London's observations in his statement there can you assist us with what your
01:31:17 there can you assist us with what your assessment of the response was at that
01:31:21 stage so um the respon the response in general response in general the local Authority response well I I think the important thing to say is and you see it through the scg minutes you see it
01:31:34 through the scg minutes you see it through the ministerial meeting minutes is the wide range of issues that were being dealt with um obviously we we saw
01:31:45 being dealt with um obviously we we saw just before the break year references year underground the safety of the underground the stability of the tower the A40 the local schools the list went on didn't it and so there was a very
01:31:56 on didn't it and so there was a very wide R you know range of issues being dealt with I don't think um the mayor may have picked up some specifics from his visit that day although that visit
01:32:07 his visit that day although that visit was largely focused on Emergency Services I do believe he popped in briefly to a community center um but you know I think really we didn't have
01:32:19 know I think really we didn't have enough visibility on the local Authority response for us to have you know really been able to say yes we you know it's good or it's or it's not good we only
01:32:30 good or it's or it's not good we only really had um the assurances that rbkc provided at the scg meetings could I ask you this then Mr B Bellamy given your role as a uh given the mayor of London's
01:32:43 role as a uh given the mayor of London's role as you accept as a category one responder and the greater London Authority's role as a category one responder should you have had better visibility of what was happening on the ground so I think the cat the point
01:32:55 ground so I think the cat the point about cat one responders is around the you know the duty to cooperate um it doesn't give the you the right to um get into the internal
01:33:06 right to um get into the internal workings of any one partner um I you know whilst accepting that that it's a CO strategic coordinating group it
01:33:17 CO strategic coordinating group it clearly would have been helpful if um you any partner there had had had the ability whilst recognizing the wide range of issues the scg was dealing with to um you know to question a bit more
01:33:30 to um you know to question a bit more rbkc about what they
01:33:35 said well your statement sets out the contact that you or the mayor of London had with senior Central figures in central government uh what contact did
01:33:46 central government uh what contact did you have with the local Authority on the 14th of June personally I didn't have any can you assist us with what contact the mayor of London had with the local Authority on the 14th of June so as um I
01:33:59 Authority on the 14th of June so as um I think he said in his statement he spoke to the then leader of the council when he was on on the way there um there was um an offer for the leader to join the mayor in person on the mayor's visit um
01:34:12 mayor in person on the mayor's visit um but the leader I believe wasn't able to take that
01:34:17 up did you have any contact with the duty
01:34:21 duty LL or John bar the chair of the lap on the 14th of June no in retrospect do you consider that you or the mayor of London should
01:34:33 you or the mayor of London should have I think had we had awareness of the issues that there were um then clearly we would have taken action um of that
01:34:44 we would have taken action um of that sort as indeed I did the following
01:34:50 day I'd like to ask you um about uh that visit that you've referred to on the 15th of June um at 2 p.m. the mayor visited the site is that correct soor I
01:35:01 visited the site is that correct soor I referred to the visit on the 14th the forgive me there was a visit on the 14th I'd like to ask you about the one on the 15th of June okay and is it right that the mayor visited the site at 2 pm on the 15th I couldn't comment on the exact
01:35:14 the 15th I couldn't comment on the exact time I wasn't there so you didn't attend with the
01:35:17 with the mayor uh we can see here an email at lfb 3 3
01:35:28 61233 uh this is an email from uh John hez rington Deputy head of resil London resilience at the time H at on the 15th of June at 11 minutes past 6 in the
01:35:41 of June at 11 minutes past 6 in the evening he says sorry to be the bearer of bad news just had a chat with the MPS gold following his private call with Nicholas the mayil was mobbed on the scene earlier there is a community
01:35:52 scene earlier there is a community meeting later today with which is showing concerns of civil unrest he is therefore not satisfied anymore to be handing over to recovery uh to tomorrow I'd like to take you to the mayor of
01:36:03 I'd like to take you to the mayor of London's statement again please that's M Mo
01:36:09 50189 and if I could take you to page 11 please of his statement uh we can see there at the bottom of the page on paragraph 46 uh he says this of his
01:36:20 says this of his visit during this visit the full scale of the tragedy was was starting to become clear and some members of the community were clearly very upset completely understandably people were angry and wanted answers for
01:36:34 people were angry and wanted answers for someone in a position of authority so my visit drew a large crowd I remember someone threw a bottle of water at me as I passed by I had not made plans to visit the noting Hill Methodist Church
01:36:46 visit the noting Hill Methodist Church following my visit to the center as I spent time speaking with those affected he then goes on to say during my visit this is at paragraph 48 during my visit to the church a large crowd congregated
01:36:59 to the church a large crowd congregated outside the front entrance like the Prime Minister and several other senior politicians I have a police protection team I was advised by my security team to exit the church via the back entrance
01:37:10 to exit the church via the back entrance but I felt uh very strongly that it was my duty as mayor to listen to the community's concerns firsthand so I left via the front door and the visit was extended for around another hour so that
01:37:22 extended for around another hour so that I could listen to those effect Ed are you able to assist us with whether in fact the mayor of London was mobbed on his visit in the afternoon of the 15th of June I don't care for the
01:37:34 the 15th of June I don't care for the word mobbed um here was a community in grief that had you clearly being let down before during and after the fire um and I think it's entirely right that
01:37:46 and I think it's entirely right that they would they would want to um you speak to somebody in a position of responsibility and Authority about what happened
01:37:55 I'd like to try and uh follows matters as Chron chronologically as possible could I invite you to look at this m501
01:38:07 183 uh we can see here this is a transcript of media interviews that were given by the mayor of London on the 14th and 15th of June at page 14 the very
01:38:19 and 15th of June at page 14 the very bottom of the page um it says this um important the the council provides housing to those who have lost it the guidance to all those who want to help
01:38:31 guidance to all those who want to help who were turning up with Van loads of goods I sense the frustration from volunteers at sorry I'm um can I just PA you I'm not I'm not seeing that on screen um right can we go back a bit
01:38:42 screen um right can we go back a bit please and can we just yeah get it on screen and then right so we're sorry we I think we maybe start in the middle of a paragraph so that's why I lost you it's P page 14
01:38:54 so that's why I lost you it's P page 14 can you see that so what's the first few words of where you're starting and then I can follow at the very bottom of that page um the three lines up from the bottom right at the very end important
01:39:05 bottom right at the very end important the council provides housing yeah okay I'm with you now let's run from there it important the council provides housing to those who have lost it and guidance to all those who want to help who are turning up with ban loads of goods I
01:39:17 turning up with ban loads of goods I sense the frustration from volunteers at the Westway um at things not being properly
01:39:25 properly coordinated so important we will signpost people at City Hall to where they need to
01:39:35 go we can see here in what the mayor is saying uh that there were concerns with the response would you agree with that yes when did you first become aware of
01:39:47 yes when did you first become aware of concerns with the local Authority response so I I think I became aware um yeah I did ask before so I went to the
01:39:58 yeah I did ask before so I went to the ministerial meeting that TR will come on to which I think was at 3:30 and I did ask before I went to that that you was was there any information yet from the mayor's visit but at that point there
01:40:11 mayor's visit but at that point there there wasn't it's possible before I went I saw some of the scenes of the mayor's visit on on the television um but I think you know I really formed concerns about rbk AC's
01:40:23 really formed concerns about rbk AC's response at the ministerial meeting and then you know when I returned to City Hall after
01:40:32 it so so are you able to say when you had concerns was it before the ministerial meeting if I've understood you
01:40:40 you correctly no I I don't believe I had um any significant concerns before the ministerial meeting but if I'd seen the TV footage or colleagues who made aware
01:40:51 TV footage or colleagues who made aware of what had gone on on the mayor's visit then clearly I would have seen that you know things were not as they should be well you've mentioned uh that second minerial meeting at 3:30 on the 15th of
01:41:03 minerial meeting at 3:30 on the 15th of June I'd like to turn to that now um you attended uh that meeting on behalf of the mayor of London is that right correct and that meeting was
01:41:14 right correct and that meeting was attended uh by Nicholas Holgate then the chief executive to the r b of Kensington and Chelsea is that right I believe so yes can you tell us uh what what impression you formed of Mr Holgate at
01:41:26 impression you formed of Mr Holgate at that
01:41:27 that meeting um I be honest I don't really have much direct recollection of that meeting and not of Mr Holgate um I just remember coming away with a real sense of unhappiness and concern about about
01:41:41 of unhappiness and concern about about the response and that there was something that was really not
01:41:47 right was this your um first interaction with Mr Holgate was this the first time you'd seen him um since the beginning of well I think he dialed in so didn't see him um I
01:41:58 he dialed in so didn't see him um I think it's the first interaction that I would have had with him since the fire I had met him previously before the
01:42:06 fire I'd like to um take you to paragraph 79 of your first witness statement
01:42:16 please that's M Mo yeah paragraph 79
01:42:24 you say this a second uh ministerial meeting took place um you then go on to say in the second line following the meeting I was sufficiently concerned at the lack of progress being made with the
01:42:36 the lack of progress being made with the recovery operation that on my return to City Hall I telephoned John baradell chief executive of the city of London Corporation and chair of the local Authority panel lap to inquire about the
01:42:48 Authority panel lap to inquire about the progress of the recovery operation from his standpoint and discuss what action could most helpfully uh be taken are you able to assist us uh with
01:43:01 taken are you able to assist us uh with what specifically concerns you at this point in time so during that ministerial meeting at 3:30 which started at 3:30 on the 15th of June so um first I think my
01:43:13 the 15th of June so um first I think my concern was about you're probably described as response and Recovery as we know the kind of boundary between the two is isn't isn't a clear one all times
01:43:24 two is isn't isn't a clear one all times um it I don't think it was really specific it was you know it was what you know what came out of the meeting I've seen some of the evidence from other
01:43:35 seen some of the evidence from other people who were at that meeting it was also um when I as I returned to City Hall um I before I could get to my desk I was met by colleagues who said you
01:43:47 I was met by colleagues who said you know L David we've you know rbkc are really just it's it's failing it's just not working um which I think they judged both from the mayor's visit and also
01:43:58 both from the mayor's visit and also contact they had received from other you know probably political figures in the in the that area of London who would have passed on information and yes I
01:44:10 have passed on information and yes I think we just you know we weren't really clear on precisely what what the failings were we could just see that things were really not working and um something needed to be done about it well I'd like to next um try and
01:44:24 it well I'd like to next um try and piece together as best we can the sequence of events that Then followed at this meeting could I take you to gl50 854
01:44:34 gl50 854 please we've looked at it before this is the transcript of the WhatsApp messages between the gold uh the mayor's Gold group um could I take you to page
01:44:52 26 I'd just like to um look and read through some of these exchanges that we can see here starting at the top of the page it's the 15th of June and
01:45:03 page it's the 15th of June and 1722 uh Miss strain says I've reached out through a number of routes re rbkc messaging red donations volunteers support including contacting Chief exec's office we'll keep on it but no
01:45:16 exec's office we'll keep on it but no response so
01:45:20 far we can then see a little later at 5:31 uh one of your colleagues says is there a way we can get across that rbkc are totally out of their depth Jeff
01:45:33 are totally out of their depth Jeff should we speak with London council's resilience lead they need a lot of help then goes on DB is that you yes going to talk to John
01:45:45 talk to John baradel and then it says it 539 John online to Nick Holgate CEO rbkc right now aware of problems will call back
01:45:57 back shortly just uh pausing there this may help us with the sequence of events and timing but is it right that you were talking to Mr Holgate at this stage no I
01:46:10 talking to Mr Holgate at this stage no I I I I asked my um executive assistant to get me John baradel on the phone and Y so I walk back in the office as I said colleagues relayed concerns which CH in the general terms which um chimed with
01:46:22 the general terms which um chimed with what I felt coming out of the ministerial meeting says say asked my assistant to get John baradell on the phone um John came to the phone and said essentially he was on the other line with with Nicholas Holgate um and you
01:46:36 with with Nicholas Holgate um and you know was aware there some problems and that he would call me back so is it the case that you didn't speak directly with Mr Holgate
01:46:47 correct John baradel as we've seen in the passage that I referred you to your statement before you say that he was the chief executive of the city of London Corporation and chair of the local Authority panel which the inquiry has
01:46:59 Authority panel which the inquiry has heard about what that is um he had not been uh involved in any strategic coordination group meetings at this point had had he
01:47:10 point had had he no he had not been involved in the ministerial meetings had he no at this stage the response was being led by the rural bur of Kensington and Chelsea is that correct the local Authority duties
01:47:25 that correct the local Authority duties yes when um giving evidence to the GLA oversight committee and I'll take you to that transcript now it's m Mo
01:47:36 607 at page
01:47:42 37 you say this when I came out of the ministerial meeting on the Thursday afternoon it was abundantly clear accepting things are always going to be difficult on the first day after the incident for obvious
01:47:54 first day after the incident for obvious reasons that the response and the beginnings of the recovery operation were not what they needed to be immediately when I came back to City Hall I rang John and said what is going
01:48:05 Hall I rang John and said what is going on what are you doing about it discussions were underway as had been earlier outlined which led to the invocation of mutual Aid I'm sorry um
01:48:16 invocation of mutual Aid I'm sorry um what the transcript says what are you going to do about it not what are you doing about it what are you going to do forgive me I'd like to um ask you about this passage discussions are underway
01:48:29 this passage discussions are underway can you explain what you meant by that okay uh discussions were I I think whether that's an error in the transcript or whether I misspoke
01:48:40 in the transcript or whether I misspoke at the time that should say discussions were already underway and as I as I say um Mr baradel was was on the phone with Mr Holgate and others when I called him
01:48:54 Mr Holgate and others when I called him so it's not the case that there had been discussions ongoing prior to your call to Mr
01:49:00 to Mr baradel um not involving
01:49:04 me were you aware that London resilience had had a call uh with um Mr Holgate the day before on the 14th of June
01:49:17 no do you consider your responsibility and that of the mayor of London that that is information that maybe you ought to have been aware
01:49:27 of I'm not I'm not sure I do clearly you it was a internal local Authority matter in terms of their response and it comes back to you know the um civil
01:49:39 back to you know the um civil contingencies act concept of this being a partnership and each partner conducting their own their own legal responsibilities um so you know no no nobody fought to say okay yes we have
01:49:51 nobody fought to say okay yes we have got some con you concerns perhaps at this point and um we should talk to the mayor or his chief of staff about it um you know it's very much I think you know
01:50:02 you know it's very much I think you know Lo auor saying well what concerns we got what can we do about it which of course is the point of the mutual Aid System that they
01:50:15 have what um was your purpose in speaking to Mr baradel my purpose in speaking to him was that it had become clear to us that the
01:50:28 it had become clear to us that the response was yeah very far from what it needed to be and um something needed to be done um but it wasn't you know it
01:50:39 be done um but it wasn't you know it wasn't immediately apparent to me um what you know what the what the options available indeed whether there were any options available to to address the matter
01:50:54 I'd like to um take you to an email please it's a g 41 1473
01:51:07 please the second email at
01:51:12 750 which is towards the bottom of the page it's an email from Mr Holgate uh to the London resilience group and um the LL oncoming and
01:51:24 group and um the LL oncoming and off-going Duty Officers um where Mr Holgate says this I do not yet think LLG needs to gear up can you see that I can
01:51:35 needs to gear up can you see that I can it then goes up the next email at
01:51:42 8:15 Just for information we have been in touch with both Mr Holgate M Nicholas Holgate Chris Naylor as oncoming LLG and Andrew Blake her Herbert as off-going
01:51:54 Andrew Blake her Herbert as off-going LLG all are content at the moment that rbkc retained the lead at this point and then the top of that email change we can see Mark Sawyer response at 818 on the
01:52:06 see Mark Sawyer response at 818 on the 14th of June looks like job done cheers can you see that I can see it can you assist us with what your understanding of
01:52:17 understanding of LG Arrangements were at the time of the fire at the time of the fire I'm yeah it so it's it's hard for me so as we touched earlier I at the beginning of
01:52:29 touched earlier I at the beginning of January 2016 I started C with no knowledge about resilience today I have the knowledge I have and clearly I've gone through a process it's very hard to look back and say well right exactly you
01:52:40 look back and say well right exactly you know what did I know at that time clearly I didn't that time know enough about LLG as a internal local authorities process for me to kind of
01:52:53 authorities process for me to kind of look at exploring that instead as we've discussed I I went to Mr baradel when I realized there were
01:53:00 problems so can you assist us with what your understanding of LLG Arrangements were so I that's just what I answered
01:53:12 previously did you understand the activation of L to mean that one local Authority would take over a response
01:53:23 as I say I'm I'm not clear on what I understood if I knew of it at all about LLG at the time I don't think I had a comprehensive understanding as clearly the inquiries itself has had some debate
01:53:35 the inquiries itself has had some debate about the final points of this do you consider that you ought to have
01:53:42 have had no because it was it's an internal matter to the um local Authority response the fact that you contacted John baradel
01:53:53 John baradel mhm might suggest that you thought that he had some Ro active role to play was that the case no I contacted him because I knew him I knew he was the deputy
01:54:04 I knew him I knew he was the deputy chair of the resilience Forum CLE clearly was the kind of local Authority leader on resilience we got a problem I didn't know whether he knew about the problem or not it's very clear there was
01:54:16 problem or not it's very clear there was a problem that something needed to be done so I wish to discuss with him what we could do about about matter yeah thank
01:54:29 you um as I say dealing with things as uh Chron chronologically as best we can um can you tell us what was discussed in
01:54:40 um can you tell us what was discussed in your call with Mr baradel so that first call was very brief because he was on the other line to Nicholas Holgate and he basically so I said look John we've got a pro you know paraphrasing we've
01:54:51 got a pro you know paraphrasing we've got a problem here you he acknowledged that said he was on you the other call at the moment with Nicholas Holgate and that he'd ring me back when that you after that
01:55:03 after that call I'd like to take you to uh your handwritten note of your conversation with Mr baradel that's M Mo
01:55:18 50175 mhm
01:55:24 was there a time you say that you were on the phone to him uh he was on the line to Mr Holgate was there an occasion when you spoke to him again yes so firstly apologizing for getting his
01:55:35 firstly apologizing for getting his surname wrong in that note um what the WhatsApp show is that that call must have concluded just before 1849 because then I informed colleagues at that time
01:55:46 then I informed colleagues at that time via WhatsApp of the outcome of the conversation so clearly would have been about quarter to 7 we'll we'll come to those um WhatsApp uh conversations in a moment just looking
01:55:57 conversations in a moment just looking at this note it says with Ellena Kelly was was was Miss Kelly in the room with Mr baradel when you were having a conversation with him that's my
01:56:09 conversation with him that's my understanding yes are you able to assist with why she was there so I now know that Miss Kelly was the deputy chair of the um local authorities panel and so
01:56:22 the um local authorities panel and so closely with Mr baradel and um clearly they then you know that's been demonstrated both in the subsequent grandell response you have further to
01:56:33 grandell response you have further to this um also in terms of um the Nal brexit response and the covid-19 response where they worked you very closely together in theg Arrangements we
01:56:45 closely together in theg Arrangements we established
01:56:53 we know that um well let me ask you this at the time of your call with Mr baradel when uh Elena Kelly was present um can you tell us whether you had expressed A
01:57:05 you tell us whether you had expressed A View to him about what you thought should be happening in the response no I don't believe I I did as I say I didn't feel don't think I was cited on the specifics of what the
01:57:16 cited on the specifics of what the issues were um just that the there were issues and you know you know the question really was what what could be done so that they were properly gripped and
01:57:28 and addressed it may be obvious and you may have answered this but what was it that you were asking him to do so as I say I when I I rang him just after 53 was as I said was because I
01:57:41 after 53 was as I said was because I could see that we had you we had a real issue I didn't you know I did not know what our at all what our options were to address that issue
01:57:52 address that issue um and so clearly as a you experienced person who would understand all that I wanted to discuss that with him in order that hopefully we could agree on the most appropriate course of action did he
01:58:03 most appropriate course of action did he suggest a course of action to you so say the first call he just said I'm talking to Nicholas Holgate I'll call you back the second call um as you can you can see here he just informed me of um what
01:58:16 see here he just informed me of um what course of action they were
01:58:19 taken is that the note where it says k andc involved you might have to assist me with your handwriting I'm afraid apologies it's not great at the best of times um knnc invoked for chief exec
01:58:31 times um knnc invoked for chief exec cover and other support another Chief exec is local Authority gold and says formally start I assume I just didn't manag to keep up presumably I was saying
01:58:42 manag to keep up presumably I was saying formally start tomorrow at some point and then JB and I think that's supposed to be EK um to support them Plus Mary from hlow so that's Mary Harley who was
01:58:54 from hlow so that's Mary Harley who was at the time the chief executive of London B of hlow and Doug who's I'm Patterson I think who at the time was chief executive London B
01:59:05 chief executive London B Bromley then it says K andc will do community resilience and cohesion housing and displaced presumably a reference to those in in the in the wars
01:59:17 reference to those in in the in the wars um there's a reference I think that is London um reference to March um and then the last notes rather incomplete external chief executive
01:59:28 incomplete external chief executive oversight with K andc director on and then it
01:59:33 then it stops so what was um your understanding now your memories been refreshed by this note of what was going to happen after that call so my my understanding was
01:59:46 that call so my my understanding was that another chief executive was was going in um to K andc alongside um Mr Holgate to help with the um coordination
01:59:57 Holgate to help with the um coordination of
01:59:59 matters so to work alongside that was that your understanding
02:00:10 yes uh well when was your understanding that that would take place um I can't remember if there's anything in the WhatsApp history that as you say we might come to that um that
02:00:22 you say we might come to that um that helps with that um you know as you can see I formally started I didn't I didn't note down um so um I think I don't really have a strong memory it's probably been too polluted by everything
02:00:34 probably been too polluted by everything that we've read subsequently uh well we can come to those WhatsApp moment uh those WhatsApp uh exchanges in a moment um I just want to ask you this about uh Miss Hammond we
02:00:45 to ask you this about uh Miss Hammond we know that you were in contact with her um did you express to Mr baradel or had you had expressed to you at that point that there was pressure from central government uh for respon for the
02:00:58 government uh for respon for the response for action on the response to take
02:01:00 take place not that I recall I imagine at that point that the government would still have been digesting the ministerial meeting in in the same way that we
02:01:09 that we were so can you recall if you had received any pressure from central government yourself at that stage to do something about the response I have absolutely no recollection of receiving
02:01:20 absolutely no recollection of receiving any um pressure from from central government I'm confident I didn't did you have any role or play any part in Mr baradel stepping in or was it
02:01:33 part in Mr baradel stepping in or was it matters were already in train before you spoke to him so do you mean in terms of stepping in in terms of his intervention with Mr Holgate or do you mean in terms of stepping in in terms of actually kind
02:01:45 of stepping in in terms of actually kind of being there in in K andc stepping in to assist Mr Holgate as we can see in this so as we can see in this note the note says another chief executive is
02:01:56 note says another chief executive is local Authority gold with John baradell and Ellen Kelly supporting that that other chief executive so at that stage I did not know and indeed I think that shows when
02:02:08 know and indeed I think that shows when we'll come on to Friday morning I didn't know that it was Mr baradel who was going to take on that
02:02:19 role um I'd like to take you to um Katherine Hammond's evidence please that's day
02:02:27 28174 and line 17 let's hope I can see it this
02:02:35 time
02:02:40 yeah we can see here um Miss Hammond is asked about uh what she says in her witness statement and I'll just take you to the start of the question that she's
02:02:51 to the start of the question that she's asked to give it some context um in light of what you say there referring back to her witness statement was it your understanding of the llag arrangements that LLG would assume the
02:03:04 arrangements that LLG would assume the same executive Authority and powers vested in the relevant chief executive I.E Nick Holgate and she says yes I assumed that Mr baradel was acting on behalf of Mr Holgate in respect of this
02:03:17 behalf of Mr Holgate in respect of this area of his responsibilities that was my understanding at the time what was the basis of that understanding I think the way I learned about this was through the conversation with Mr Bellamy so that he
02:03:31 conversation with Mr Bellamy so that he so so that would be the basis can you remember what he said to you not in precise words I'm
02:03:39 afraid do you agree uh with with Miss Hammond in her recollection of that of a conversation with you so I don't have I mean I think this is just been just so clear going back to line one and two
02:03:51 clear going back to line one and two this is Friday morning is it just so we're clear um I don't have um a recollection of that conversation I'm quite prepared to believe that it it
02:04:03 quite prepared to believe that it it happened um I think what we see um from the um and you may be coming to this apologies from the note of the gold cell meeting you it's still was it 8:30 in
02:04:16 meeting you it's still was it 8:30 in the morning 9:00 in the morning wherever the gold sell meeting was it still wasn't clear at that point who was taking on the LA gold responsibilities but that was reported to the 11: a.m. scg and so that was um
02:04:30 to the 11: a.m. scg and so that was um our then duty officer reported that um via the WhatsApp um conversation at I believe
02:04:38 believe 1125 well I Believe Miss Hammond is speaking about a conversation with you on the 15th of June can you assist us with whether you had a conversation with her on the 15th well I may or may not have done but
02:04:51 15th well I may or may not have done but that clearly was before there was any suggestion of John baradel getting getting involved I think what you're showing me on screen at the moment is about the morning of the 16th so you don't recall having a conversation with with Miss Hammond on
02:05:03 conversation with with Miss Hammond on the 15th of June where you said to her that Mr Bellamy would be acting on behalf of Mr Holgate in respect of those responsibilities so firstly I'm Mr
02:05:14 responsibilities so firstly I'm Mr Bellamy so now secondly um it as I say that only happened on Friday the 16th and thirdly as I said earlier I may well
02:05:25 and thirdly as I said earlier I may well have had conversational conversations with Katherine Hammond and per you throughout this matter I'm perfectly prepared to believe I did I just don't have any specific recollection of them
02:05:36 have any specific recollection of them I'm
02:05:40 afraid um you say in your witness statement we don't need to turn to it now that you were reassured by your conversation uh with Mr baradel who told
02:05:51 conversation uh with Mr baradel who told you I'll be KY were planning to invoke Mutual Aid that evening that's the evening of the 15th of June when you spoke with Mr baradel did what did you
02:06:02 spoke with Mr baradel did what did you understand invoke Mutual Aid to mean um I understood it to mean that um appropriate colleagues from wider London local government would be getting
02:06:13 local government would be getting involved in assisting the with with the res response and providing perhaps the um capacity and experience that you appeared from the F in rbkc were
02:06:26 appeared from the F in rbkc were lacking well I'd like to take you to those trans those WhatsApp messages the transcript of them that's GLA uh 854
02:06:40 please and if we can go to page 26
02:06:51 um we had got up to the stage uh of the conversation uh of the message forgive me at
02:06:58 me at 5:39 uh John on the line to Nick hallgate CEO rbkc right now aware of problems we'll call back shortly um can you assist I appreciate this message was
02:07:09 you assist I appreciate this message was not written by you but what were those uh problems that are being uh that are suggested here so Dr Bose um sat in the same office as me and was essentially
02:07:20 same office as me and was essentially you know listening to my conversation or heard my immediate summary as I put the phone down and what he's saying there that John baradell was on the line to Nicholas Holgate at that time was I
02:07:32 Nicholas Holgate at that time was I spoke to John baradell um that John was was aware that there were problems and that John would call me back shortly we can uh move forward uh in
02:07:44 shortly we can uh move forward uh in time to the message at 649 you've already referred to uh you right here spoke to John barale we know that you mean Mr baradell a la Chief exec is
02:07:56 mean Mr baradell a la Chief exec is being assigned to share the load was that your understanding at the time yes that's my short hand for the note of the meeting that you've already seen uh and um your evidence was that
02:08:10 seen uh and um your evidence was that you didn't know who that who that chief executive was going to be correct uh people can please can people tell me what K&C issues we are seeing and I will feedback back to John as they
02:08:22 and I will feedback back to John as they can be picked up so they can be picked up and then um your colleague then uh responds back at 652 that's really helpful I know Emma
02:08:36 652 that's really helpful I know Emma was aware of some issues Tony davish PA came upstairs and said h&f was struggling to make contact and help is that Hammer Hammer Smith and Fulham yeah hamon and Fulham Council yes it would
02:08:48 hamon and Fulham Council yes it would have been so Mr devonish for your information is the um was and is the London assembly member for Central West London which includes um both hamerson from Fuller
02:09:00 includes um both hamerson from Fuller man kenson and
02:09:03 Chelsea were there issues with getting hold of rbkc as we can see is suggested here I I believe there were I think that's shown throughout the evidence
02:09:14 that's shown throughout the evidence including evidence from my gla colleagues um we can then see uh that Miss strain um sends a message about some of the concerns of the team and we can see and
02:09:27 concerns of the team and we can see and I can um take you to that and you calls the email that she then sends um I just want to ask you this before we move away uh from this topic of the conversation
02:09:38 uh from this topic of the conversation with Mr baradel um given that the mayor of London we you've been referred to his witness statement and what he says about his observations on the second visit that he had on the 15th of June the
02:09:51 that he had on the 15th of June the concerns that you had on the 15th of June following the ministerial meeting um why was it were you were you satisfied uh Mr Bellamy to wait for
02:10:03 satisfied uh Mr Bellamy to wait for information about what chief executive would be in a supporting role were you satisfied with the response that you received so I was satisfied that um yeah
02:10:16 received so I was satisfied that um yeah local authorities in London were taking what they considered to be appropriate action
02:10:21 action I considered that Mr baradell um as clearly a local Authority chief executive of some experience particularly with regard to resilience um would have a far better understanding
02:10:33 um would have a far better understanding me of you know what was required to be done and doubtless from his discussions with Mr Holgate what some of the the issues may be and so you know I was you
02:10:44 issues may be and so you know I was you know satisfied that you know action was being taken that con that Mr baradel considered to
02:10:55 appropriate I asked you um about an email earlier sent by Mr Sawyer where he says job done I'd just like to take you to uh one more Email exchange that's
02:11:07 to uh one more Email exchange that's lfb
02:11:09 lfb 3061 229
02:11:17 please now this is an email again from Mr hea turn uh sent to his uh London resilience group colleagues I appreciate you weren't on this email it's not one
02:11:28 you weren't on this email it's not one that was copied to you um but what he says in that second paragraph towards the bottom three lines up from the bottom of the second paragraph I have made the point to mark that they should
02:11:40 made the point to mark that they should look to consume this in everyday business as far as possible so that we don't get drawn into longer term support Mark agreed with this I think we will need to do something but I think if possible some advice early days to bring
02:11:52 possible some advice early days to bring the right people together then let them get on with it was there an impression or did you form uh the impression uh that there was
02:12:04 form uh the impression uh that there was reluctance on the part of the L and Mr Mark Sawyer and London resilience to get involved in helping rbkc so I mean I had no knowledge of
02:12:16 rbkc so I mean I had no knowledge of this at the time that's not how I interpret this email at all I inter this email has been from London resilience group yeah um and London res yeah London
02:12:28 group yeah um and London res yeah London resilience group were you know saying so that we don't get drawn into a long-term support and that you know would reflect that London yeah London resilience have
02:12:39 that London yeah London resilience have you know always got to be ready for as events sadly showed the next incident that will happen they still would be yeah clearly would have some involvement here they still had some involvement in
02:12:50 here they still had some involvement in matter is related to the London Bridge and baram Market Terror attacks which were what 11 days I think prior to um grandell fire and so I think what I see
02:13:01 grandell fire and so I think what I see there is you know London resilience group saying well we need um you know rbkc to set themselves up to handle what is clearly going to be an ongoing
02:13:13 situation could I invite you to to look at your first witness statement at paragraph 79 please
02:13:27 um it's a very bottom of paragraph 79 you say I was reassured by this by that it means let me read up the first few lines I was informed by Mr baradel that
02:13:40 lines I was informed by Mr baradel that he was currently on a separate call with RB casc who had informed him that they were planning to invoke Mutual Aid that evening I was reassured by this however it did not in fact take place until the
02:13:52 it did not in fact take place until the following
02:13:54 following day so I think what that is is doing is yeah this so I'm aware of the inquiries you know debates and and looking into
02:14:05 you know debates and and looking into this um I have to say I find it surprising that I I don't pretend to understand the legalities of the gold resolution between local authorities I
02:14:17 resolution between local authorities I find it surprising that a situation in which a chief EXE Ive can incur expenditure on behalf of another Authority is able to occur without um
02:14:28 Authority is able to occur without um some sort of written statement although I suppose one can imagine circumstances why where it's just not possible to obtain that and I think you know you
02:14:39 obtain that and I think you know you what what we see there is I think with the inquiries teased out is is the kind of difference between um you know the start of mutual Aid and then John
02:14:50 start of mutual Aid and then John baradel himself taking a more leading role um in terms of you directing the response and Recovery
02:15:00 operation would you say that you were surprised that it took place the following day so yeah I yeah I think I think I
02:15:11 day so yeah I yeah I think I think I would I think I would have expected that um that you following that you know that conversation um the agreement of Mr Holgate obviously I wasn't cited on it
02:15:22 Holgate obviously I wasn't cited on it sounds like there were various conversations to get him to the point of agreeing but you know I I would have thought that fairly quickly at that stage you know a decision would be taken on whether that would be the current
02:15:34 on whether that would be the current primary London local Authority gold or whether somebody else would take that take that
02:15:43 responsibility so we know that um LL uh was not in in fact activated until the following day the afternoon of the following day uh did you take any steps
02:15:55 following day uh did you take any steps to question what was happening so I'm not sure I I know that I know that John Bell went there on the on the F on the Friday morning um I'm not CLE yeah what
02:16:07 Friday morning um I'm not CLE yeah what what I know is that so on the Friday morning at the 8:30 um gold cell um we reflected that we didn't know who was taking on that responsibility I had I was given an
02:16:20 responsibility I had I was given an action to find out um I don't remember anything specific subsequent to that action but then what we see from the gold cell um um WhatsApp group is that
02:16:33 gold cell um um WhatsApp group is that it was reported to the scg and so I was informed at 1125 that John baradell was the person taking that L AG role yes and I imagine at that stage you
02:16:45 role yes and I imagine at that stage you understood that he was uh going to uh take on the role of L AG London Gold under the gold
02:16:56 L AG London Gold under the gold resolution um I wouldn't be certain about that as I say I wouldn't have had not been from a local Authority I wouldn't have necessarily had knowledge of the gold resolution or the or the scope of it or or so forth which of
02:17:08 scope of it or or so forth which of course is you if I'd if I'd had that knowledge my conversation with Mr baradel on the Thursday might have been slightly different why isn't rather than what should we do M all right thank you
02:17:20 what should we do M all right thank you yeah I'd just um like to show you uh this email it's g501
02:17:27 96 it's the email that you sent uh to Mr baradel at 7:48 uh that evening uh and in the first
02:17:39 7:48 uh that evening uh and in the first paragraph uh the last sentence of that first paragraph you say it's worth flagging that building a list of people known to live in the tower is something they have apparently so far failed to do
02:17:50 they have apparently so far failed to do a are you referring to RB KC here I am yes would you agree that the issues on the ground as they've been referred to were
02:18:01 were acute um I think the evidence before the inquiry shows that they were
02:18:13 yes I'd like to next uh turn your attention to uh some other emails from your colleague M strain and again I appreciate you were not on these emails
02:18:24 appreciate you were not on these emails um you're not copied into them but I'd like to see if you can help us with the topics that they do cover um the first is lfb 30
02:18:40 67777 this is um an email from John hez
02:18:46 rington forgive me
02:18:54 this is this this is an email from Mr Hetherington to his internal LRG colleagues uh talking about uh a conversation with Miss strain your colleague your colleague at the GLA it
02:19:07 colleague your colleague at the GLA it says this had a call with Emma strain at the GLA given the concerns at City Hall regarding the grip of the situation at rbkc she has said that if we have further issues to raise then we can do
02:19:19 further issues to raise then we can do so through her which will be pass through David Bellamy anonymously if needed obviously this will be sensitive so not a wish list of gripes but just to make you all aware we have that Avenue
02:19:31 make you all aware we have that Avenue should it be required can you assist us with uh what the sensitivity was here so
02:19:40 here so um I I think you could almost regard this as um Em Say obviously I'd asked Emma to pull together a list of issues so that we I could inform John baradel for whoever Loc London local Authority
02:19:51 for whoever Loc London local Authority gold would be so that they were they were informed and could could address these points and she's spoken to John Herington to try and you know see are there are there any other things that we
02:20:02 there are there any other things that we should be aware of I think the point about
02:20:06 about sensitivity um I think the analogy might be with a whistleblowing situation so that if for any reason anybody in London resilience group saw things related to
02:20:17 resilience group saw things related to their responsibilities towards local authorities and you know the work they were doing with our bkc they had an an Avenue in which those could be raised without you know them being kind of
02:20:29 without you know them being kind of accused of um you know telling Tales or whatever it might be you know just really a desire that we needed to know the facts in order that they could be
02:20:39 addressed um I'd like to take you to a another email exchange that's lfb 30 61241
02:20:55 and it's the email in the middle of the page uh from Miss strain 15th of June at 2231 and she says this just worth noting
02:21:07 2231 and she says this just worth noting that there are reports from people locally that firefighters have told them it's over a 100 fatalities it's not sustainable to continue the announcements how they've been going will be a big risk that our us HMG that
02:21:20 will be a big risk that our us HMG that Her Majesty's government knnc Kensington and Chelsea response is not commensurate with the scale of the tragedy did the uncertainty and
02:21:33 tragedy did the uncertainty and confirmed
02:21:34 confirmed fatalities um affect the way or impact on the mayor of London's voice of London role so I think this reflects um yeah a
02:21:45 role so I think this reflects um yeah a situation in which clearly there are proper processes that must be followed in terms of identifying um fatalities and so you know we started with a very low number of fatalities
02:21:58 with a very low number of fatalities which anybody looking at it could could see was very very low um because there wasn't you know you know a definitive figure coming from
02:22:09 know a definitive figure coming from that Source it very slow and because you the casualty Bureau and rbkc operations hadn't said oh look right there this many people in the tower right we know
02:22:20 many people in the tower right we know about this this many people we got a certain number in hospitals so this gives us a number presumed missing which like might then give you an approximation for the potential range of
02:22:32 approximation for the potential range of fatalities because that wasn't there we're in a situation where the communications were very much about the official position which of course is all we can communicate but quite rightly
02:22:44 we can communicate but quite rightly people in the community would look at that and say well that's that's self-evidently not right and you know we've been failed you know so completely by authorities is this another attempt
02:22:55 by authorities is this another attempt to downplay the severity of what we saw and I think that that was Mr tr's
02:23:05 point I'd like to turn to the investigations uh by the greater London Authority oversight committee that we have uh seen the transcript of your contributions to it's right to say that
02:23:17 contributions to it's right to say that there were three sessions in respect of that
02:23:20 that uh response to the grenfell tower fire one on the 14th of September the 23rd of November and the 31st of January 2018 is that right I know they had three sessions I don't recall the precise
02:23:32 sessions I don't recall the precise dates and on as we've already established the 23rd of November of 2017 uh the committee looked in more detail at the mayor's role in the response and Recovery phases is that
02:23:43 response and Recovery phases is that right that would be the session that I and and bough Chief Executives attended yes and going back uh to that transcript then on the 23rd of November of 2017
02:23:54 then on the 23rd of November of 2017 that's M
02:23:55 that's M mo6 17 going to page
02:24:05 37 um you say um on the second line on the first paragraph there when I came forgive me sorry the second paragraph for me there are three lessons
02:24:18 paragraph for me there are three lessons at a high level to be learned from grenfell
02:24:20 grenfell the first is that the mutual Aid processes were not invoked early enough they should have been invoked immediately clearly we have as discussed the peer review underway to try to stop
02:24:32 the peer review underway to try to stop that issue ever happening again just pausing there dealing with the first issue that you identified there uh what do you mean uh by saying that the mutual
02:24:44 do you mean uh by saying that the mutual Aid ought to have been invoked earlier so I think there's what I meant at the time and then I would put an additional comment on it now what I meant at the time was that the scale of the incident
02:24:57 time was that the scale of the incident and um our big KC's you know preparedness to respond to it clearly it the incident was was you know was beyond their capability and they really needed to get help in a in a structured way to
02:25:09 to get help in a in a structured way to put a proper operation in place the thing I would add to that now is that reading the version of the humanitarian assistance framework 5.0 that was draft
02:25:21 assistance framework 5.0 that was draft but was in use at that time is you know I think actually that makes fairly clear that Mutual Aid should have been should have been
02:25:30 have been invoked and also of course that the the humanitarian assistance Le and officer should have been appointed
02:25:39 immediately um you then say the second issue which the chair rightly refer to is that with the best response in the world pre-existing conditions in the community and the relationship between the community and its Council can create
02:25:52 the community and its Council can create a challenge that the theory of a response and Recovery operation may not anticipate we could have a perfect response recovery operation ready to go but it deals with real people and real
02:26:03 but it deals with real people and real situations and so we have to deal with that the third high level area of learning is about the resources that were available to LLG to deploy and whether we have the right capabilities
02:26:15 whether we have the right capabilities available to us we have talked about one example in terms of liaison with effective family there is a lesson to be learned uh that that was not quite right um you've already alluded to one
02:26:27 um you've already alluded to one additional comment that you would make as to what you saw the concerns being have with the passage of time have you since reflected on any
02:26:39 other um I mean I I think that stands up well in terms of um the um yeah the the key
02:26:47 key issues um I think clearly there were you know there were some issues about um preparedness of of burough particularly K andc but and all the processes that
02:27:00 K andc but and all the processes that should have been there to ensure that burough were um prepared but equally I can I can understand um the challenges in in achieving that that's I think another another real area of focus
02:27:11 another another real area of focus that's
02:27:12 that's needed have you um since reflected that maybe there was more that you could have done to ensure that the response in those early days was well managed so I think in the in in terms of
02:27:25 managed so I think in the in in terms of the specific incident um yeah the GLA as a partner didn't receive the information about what was going on on the ground
02:27:36 about what was going on on the ground and the the failings that there were in order for us as a partner to raise concerns and try and try and see to them that um they were addressed and that that was for us the fundamental
02:27:48 that was for us the fundamental challenge is the the lack of visibility into what was going
02:27:54 on having had that reflection um what have you of the GLA done since to rectify that so on that um specific point um we now have a team the London
02:28:08 point um we now have a team the London situational awareness team which is a 247 function um which monitors information about um what is going on in
02:28:20 information about um what is going on in London so both um information from resilience Partners but also um open- Source um information on on the internet social media and so forth and maintains
02:28:32 social media and so forth and maintains U relationships with the relevant government Machinery in order that you know we we get first early notification of incidents and secondly regular reporting on them so we have that
02:28:46 reporting on them so we have that capacity and then um you they're also there say when the major incident is declared in in support of of our involvement in in the scg in terms of creating an incident log and other such
02:28:59 creating an incident log and other such things I'd like to uh move on to another topic uh please in your uh first witness statement and we'll um have it up in front of us page 25 paragraph
02:29:10 front of us page 25 paragraph 118 um you refer to the role of the mayor of London and I'd like to um ask you about
02:29:18 you about that paragraph uh 118 the the end of the second line there are clear limits to the mayor's role in an incident of this nature given the mayor does not have any
02:29:31 nature given the mayor does not have any direct operational responsibility to respond to such an incident he could not have pursued a more active role in terms of the resilience Arrangements post grenfell without both breaching agreed
02:29:44 grenfell without both breaching agreed protocols and taking responsibility from rbkc itself a democratically elected Public Authority without any legal basis for doing so instead he offered and provided active
02:29:55 instead he offered and provided active support to those who had those
02:30:00 Powers at paragraph 119 you go on to say I stated in my evidence before the oversight committee you give the reference for it that the mayor had a role in terms of communication in
02:30:11 role in terms of communication in amplifying the messages from those with operational command this emphasizes the fact that the mayor's primary role is to communicate to provide reassurance to londoners with regard to an incident in
02:30:24 londoners with regard to an incident in of this nature the existing resilience Arrangements do not envisage or permit the mayor to intervene in terms of coordinating any operational response whether that is a satisfactory State of
02:30:36 whether that is a satisfactory State of Affairs is a matter the mayor urges the inquiry to consider uh in his statement the mayor of London if we can go to that statement it's m Mo
02:30:48 50189 page page
02:30:58 24 um he says at um paragraph 102 towards the at the bottom of the page the key point is that under the relevant Arrangements it is entirely for the
02:31:09 Arrangements it is entirely for the borrow in which a civil emergency occurs to decide when to request Mutual Aid there was and still is no process which allows a third party to step in and in insist that Mutual Aid is invoked uh
02:31:23 insist that Mutual Aid is invoked uh this means that if a goes over if a borrow is not dealing with an emergency effectively but for some reason does not ask for help there is nothing that London resilience or anyone else can do
02:31:36 London resilience or anyone else can do to take control of the
02:31:42 situation at paragraph 113 he goes on to say
02:31:52 this is in the middle of the paragraph for the mayor to have the ability to determine what other aspects of the response and recovery from a civil emergency should be left with the local borrow or assigned at a uh local level
02:32:06 borrow or assigned at a uh local level the London level London local level um i' would like to um explore this a little further with you if I may please um a representative of the greater
02:32:17 um a representative of the greater London Authority was present at all the scg meetings between the 14th and 20th of June weren't they they were and the three of you that attended we've already established um were members of the
02:32:29 established um were members of the mayor's mayor of London's Gold group in response to the grenfell tower that's right isn't it the gold hell yes uh the mayor's gold cell would meet often multiple times a day would it um as we
02:32:42 multiple times a day would it um as we felt necessary yes uh there were also two ministerial meetings one on the 14th and another on the 15th of June um that you attended both of those meetings and the mayor of London dialed into the
02:32:53 the mayor of London dialed into the meeting on the 15th is that correct no he dialed into the meeting on the 14th he didn't attend in any way the meeting on the 15th thank you you attended both of those meetings is that right yes
02:33:06 of those meetings is that right yes would you agree that these meetings were attended by key ministers involved in the response to the grandall tower fire I would agree that they were attended by um relevant ministers from the the
02:33:18 um relevant ministers from the the government Department the KE government departments related to the incident and from the 16th of June those meetings morphed into the grenfell tower recovery task force meetings which took place
02:33:29 task force meetings which took place once a day the majority of which were chaired by the then prime minister is that right um yes that's right you attended four out of five of those meetings between the 16th to the 20th of June is that right so I think in that
02:33:42 June is that right so I think in that total you're also including official level meetings which weren't chaired by the Prime Minister but by the deputy National Security advisor but yes other than the meeting on the Saturday I attended all the others yes and the
02:33:54 attended all the others yes and the mayor mayor of London attended two out of five of those meetings between the 16th to the 20th of June is that right yes I believe was it or was it three he attended on the Saturday the Monday and
02:34:07 attended on the Saturday the Monday and then possibly we've just slipped outside your time period the Wednesday uh it was open to you while the mayor of London to raise any issues in those meetings wasn't it yes and you
02:34:18 in those meetings wasn't it yes and you spoke with Katherine Hammond as we have heard and you had an opportunity to raise any concerns with her privately if needed is that right yes uh would you accept that the mayor
02:34:30 yes uh would you accept that the mayor of London and his office had access at a very high level to those who could in influence the trajectory of the
02:34:37 response if you well the if as we say the the response obviously is across the partnership responding to a range of aspects of it clearly you we had um
02:34:50 aspects of it clearly you we had um you know said the mayor spoke to the leader of
02:34:53 leader of rbkc um we spent a lot of time trying different officers to speak to rbkc as the evidence showed did of us and and failed to do so so we certainly you know
02:35:04 failed to do so so we certainly you know as partners had the theoretical ability but it clearly proved challenging to do so would you accept by virtue of the mayor of London's Presence at Key meetings that there was opportunity to
02:35:18 meetings that there was opportunity to influence so opportunity to influence what opport opportunity to influence what was happening on the ground so there was um the the opportunity to um
02:35:29 there was um the the opportunity to um contribute to the coordinate through the scg there was opportunity to um be involved in the coordination of what was going on the ground clearly what the
02:35:40 going on the ground clearly what the secg wasn't seeing from rbkc is any detail about what or was what was or was not happening in order that you know we could say well hang on a minute that's
02:35:51 could say well hang on a minute that's that's that's a problem isn't it do you consider um the greater London Authority and the mayor's role um as having oversight responsibility uh for
02:36:03 having oversight responsibility uh for London resilience that they would have had influence and Authority in what occurred in the aftermath of the grenfall tower fire so um we touched on
02:36:14 grenfall tower fire so um we touched on this earlier our responsibilities for London resilience are as a category one responder which as we said is a is a slightly unusual situation because we're not an operational responder we're a
02:36:26 not an operational responder we're a strategic Authority um but clearly that was the mechanism that was taken to get us involved in the lrf so we could um take on those responsibilities from from there you
02:36:40 responsibilities from from there you know as a as a responder we have our duties under the under the ACT to cooperate and they're overwhelmingly in the referring to the preparedness um it didn't give us any powers to um
02:36:54 um it didn't give us any powers to um involve ourselves in the response activities of um any individual
02:37:02 responder do you consider Mr Bellamy that if the existing procedures and by that I mean the LG and mutual Aid agreements had been effectively deployed uh there would still remain a need to
02:37:13 uh there would still remain a need to strengthen the role of the mayor of London as you suggest so I I I consider that if um the Frameworks and protocols in place have
02:37:24 Frameworks and protocols in place have been followed perfectly I.E at let's say 4 a.m. on Wednesday the 14th rbkc had said you looked at the humanitarian assistance framework you know activated
02:37:36 assistance framework you know activated that appointed a suitably experienced and qualified humanitarian assistance leaz an officer and recognized in accordance with the framework that they needed um Mutual Aid and if through that
02:37:49 needed um Mutual Aid and if through that um and discussions with London local Authority gold the appropriate structure for that local Authority partnership effort could have been established then there would have been
02:38:00 established then there would have been um you no need for the mayor to have any further power because to be to be clear what we absolutely see is you know what we saw belatedly happen after grandf
02:38:11 we saw belatedly happen after grandf fell was local Authority colleagues stepping in to um you know to to help and contribute because they're emphatically the people with the skill set to do this um the GLA
02:38:25 with the skill set to do this um the GLA as a strategic policy Authority in general wouldn't have people with with the right skills to carry out a um the responsibilities of a local Authority nor would we seek to do so as the May
02:38:36 nor would we seek to do so as the May said in his statement um I'd like to um uh well would you accept that there were a number of reviews that have been undertaken into London resilience since
02:38:48 undertaken into London resilience since the grenfell tower f culminating with the ep220 refresh report written by Mark Sawyer none of those reports suggest a greater role of the mayor of London do they so um in terms of reviews of London
02:39:01 they so um in terms of reviews of London resilience you're yeah you're talking about the riod review um related to local Authority Arrangements not London resilience generally um and um no they
02:39:15 resilience generally um and um no they yeah that that um review doesn't suggest a change
02:39:19 a change no uh Mark Sawyer when giving his evidence to the inquiry was asked about uh the role of the mayor of London and we can go to his transcript it's day
02:39:30 we can go to his transcript it's day 278 page 184
02:39:51 and if I could take you to line three please uh he's asked the question what is your view as to the suggestion which is made by the mayor of London in their opening submissions to this module that
02:40:03 opening submissions to this module that there may be a need for the formal role of the mayor of London in a civil emergency to be expanded in carefully defined circumstances to require the invocation of mutual Aid and appropriate leadership Arrangements in other words
02:40:15 leadership Arrangements in other words it seems to have some role in the activation of the gold resolution and the answer which Mr saw gave I would suggest that that may well be legally challenging to find a solution to that
02:40:27 challenging to find a solution to that but that said I believe that by better defining the role of the local Authority Gold by establishing that proactive approach to ensuring that we don't wait to be asked we actually ask the local
02:40:39 to be asked we actually ask the local Authority gold asks do you need help support by applying that more proactive approach we will hopefully have addressed the concerns that that arose during
02:40:52 grenfell could I respond to that is that um so um respectfully I disagree with him I think what the evidence shows from grenfell is that there were lots of
02:41:03 grenfell is that there were lots of people offering AIDS and assistance to rbkc but they were fine thank you and didn't didn't wish to Avail themselves of it I think and that that is the challenge where I think Mr Sawyer is
02:41:16 challenge where I think Mr Sawyer is right is that legally there is no power and no ability for the mayor currently to step in um but as our our Sovereign as as we know um and but of course you
02:41:29 as as we know um and but of course you the law can be changed the question I put is that if you look at what happened and we've had the discussion about the evening of the 15th and then obviously matters went on into the
02:41:41 matters went on into the 16th um you know you we were reliant on the chief executive of rbkc so accept accept
02:41:49 accept M Mutual Aid um and if a decision needs to be made in a case where a chief executive is is not you through shock or whatever reason not understanding the
02:42:01 whatever reason not understanding the scale of what's before them who is to make that decision so with Grell it could have been um the chief executive of the city of London Corporation as
02:42:12 of the city of London Corporation as chair of the London ccil but I fail to see what democratic accountability there is in a chief executive from one area taking you know a decision that ultimately as we saw on the Friday was taken away you know it took away powers
02:42:25 taken away you know it took away powers from a a burough chief executive it could be the chair of London councils at the time was the leader of haringay but again what's hering got to do with kenson and Chelsea
02:42:37 hering got to do with kenson and Chelsea and that's where I come back um to the mayor of London as somebody elected by the people of all of London including KC yeah but this is a political question isn't it because what's being suggested
02:42:49 isn't it because what's being suggested is the mayor should have o powers to intervene overriding the role of the burough or a particular bar and whether that's desirable or not would seem to me
02:43:00 that's desirable or not would seem to me to be a political question I well I'm not sure I think sometimes we respect people to describe things as political questions when I I
02:43:11 things as political questions when I I would I think they they're questions I think um you know the question is who takes the decision yeah for really important matters such
02:43:23 yeah for really important matters such as um matters um you know like you say potentially taking a responsibility away from a burough for a period of time and assigning it to somebody else I'd rather those decisions were taken by somebody
02:43:34 those decisions were taken by somebody democratically elected and accountable all right thank you well you may have already answered this but considering all of these matters do you still share the mayor's view uh that the
02:43:46 still share the mayor's view uh that the role of the mayor in civil emergency should be expanded as he says in his statement paragraph 113 yes with appropriate safeguards about about the role thinking about you know it could be
02:43:57 role thinking about you know it could be that we re it's about receiving perhaps a report or Assurance from the Strategic coordination group that the mayor could then consider if need be I don't yeah I'm not here suggesting a kind of unilateral thing that the May can just
02:44:09 unilateral thing that the May can just you know decide whatever the mayor of the Day wish is well thank you Mr bamy those are the questions I have for you right thank well Mr Bellamy when we
02:44:20 you right thank well Mr Bellamy when we get to this point we have to have a short break first to let Council check that she's asked all the questions she should have asked and also to allow other people who are following the proceedings from elsewhere to suggest
02:44:31 proceedings from elsewhere to suggest questions that we haven't thought of that they think perhaps we should put to you so we're going to take a short break I'm going to say that we'll come back at 1:00 and at that point we'll see if
02:44:42 1:00 and at that point we'll see if there are any more questions for you and and how we go from there all right while you're out of the room I have to ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence of as before all right thank you very much would you give with the
02:44:53 you very much would you give with the user
02:45:00 please M MRA I said 1:00 I know that's a short time if you find it do need more time will you want see should CLE thank you very
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02:52:45 [Music] would you ask Mr Bellamy to come back in
02:53:01 all right Mr Bellamy well we'll see if there are any more questions for you yes m m just one question Mr Bellamy um is there anything you would wish to add to your evidence that is relevant to the
02:53:12 your evidence that is relevant to the inquiry's investigations that I have not covered with you um I think I'd just like the opportunity to say that um obviously mine is a um an internal facing role um I just wanted to take
02:53:23 facing role um I just wanted to take this opportunity publicly to um say to the um survivors the briefed local residents how very sorry I am for what
02:53:35 residents how very sorry I am for what happened um I consider that they were failed not just here and there but I think the evidence of this inquiry has shown that you they were failed by us as
02:53:46 shown that you they were failed by us as a society and I think think it's um incumbent on all of us to um you do whatever we can to ensure that nothing like that ever happens
02:53:58 like that ever happens again um I think I've kind of outlined in evidence some of the things that um we at the GLA have done since then um
02:54:09 we at the GLA have done since then um and um it's that's very important that we all do that and that everybody look looks critically at that um I also want to um in that Spirit acknowledge those
02:54:22 to um in that Spirit acknowledge those people who when rbkc failed um came to to help um they didn't have to do so the only reason that they did was a desire
02:54:34 only reason that they did was a desire for public service and I think that's the spirit that all of us need to keep in our minds as we um you move forward and do all we can to ensure that nothing like this ever happens
02:54:45 like this ever happens again well thank you Mr Bellamy all that's left is for me to thank you uh for coming today to give your evidence thank you and I'd like to add my thanks Mr Bellamy on behalf of the panel as a
02:54:56 Mr Bellamy on behalf of the panel as a whole it's been very interesting to hear what you have to tell us and very helpful to us as well so thank you very much for giving us your time to come and give evidence thank you I'm for the opportunity and now of course you're
02:55:07 opportunity and now of course you're free to go thank you thank
02:55:17 you thank you very much Mr MRA well we have another witness but not until after the break so we'll stop now for lunch and uh we'll resume please at 5 2 right
02:55:28 and uh we'll resume please at 5 2 right 5 2 please