Nicholas Heard, Minister for Policing and Fire Service, gives evidence about the government's response to Grenfell in the first seven days, including ministerial meetings, COBRA coordination, and failures in supporting bereaved families.
00:00:26 yes mr millet yes mr chairman good afternoon good afternoon members of the panel i now call mr nicholas heard please thank you
00:00:42 good afternoon mr heard uh you're going to affirm i think is that right right so the words should be on the screen would you read them out please i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i
00:00:53 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much please sit down make yourself comfortable
00:01:06 right yes yes mr german thank you mr herd good afternoon
00:01:11 afternoon can i start by thanking you very much for coming to the inquiry assisting us with our investigations we're extremely grateful to you as with all witnesses before you can i give you one or two coaching tips please first keep your
00:01:22 coaching tips please first keep your voice up so that the person who sits to your right can get down everything you say nice and clearly secondly please don't nod or shake your head you've just nodded you need to say yes or no
00:01:33 or no thank you very much and we will have breaks in the normal way i'm hoping to finish you this afternoon you can help with that
00:01:40 with that uh if we will break at 3 15 or so in order to give give everybody a breather if any of my questions are unclear please say so and i will happily rephrase the question or put it in a different way
00:01:51 different way now you've made two statements to the inquiry everything we're going to look at together will appear on the screen the first one is that hom 3046080
00:02:02 is that your first witness statement to the inquiry
00:02:07 it is thank you and can we go please to page 21 where there's a signature is that your signature thank you and can we please go to h o m 0 5 0 7 2
00:02:21 is that your second or supplementary witness statement to the inquiry it is thank you and if we go please uh to page nine you'll see a signature above the date of the second of april 2020.
00:02:32 date of the second of april 2020. is that your signature it is and have you read each of these statements recently yes uh now apart from one correction uh which um i think you have acknowledged through your solicitors
00:02:43 acknowledged through your solicitors which we'll come to can we confirm that the contents are true apart from that material correction yes yes now i'm going to look at three areas with you first and briefly your background and
00:02:54 first and briefly your background and role
00:02:55 role at the time of the fire in june 2017 secondly the role of the home office more broadly and thirdly your own involvement in the response in the first seven days and can i then turn to your political
00:03:06 can i then turn to your political background i'm right to think that you are a member of the conservative party yes i am and previously the member of parliament for rise lit northward and pinna yes that's right
00:03:17 pinna yes that's right and in relation to your ministerial career i think you were parliamentary secretary minister for civil society between may 2010 and july 2014 is that correct
00:03:26 correct and parliamentary under secretary of state at the department for international development between 2015 and 2016. that's correct and minister of state for climate change and industry at the beis the department for business
00:03:38 the beis the department for business energy and industrial strategy between july 2016 and june 2017. that's correct yes thank you now at the time of the grenfell tower of fire i think you had just been appointed minister of state
00:03:49 just been appointed minister of state for policing and the fire service that's correct and you had that you had been in post i think for something like two days before the fire i think i was appointed on the monday evening right so so dana but two days
00:04:01 but two days um now you um the ministerial role fell i think within the ambit of the home office's responsibility is that right that's correct yes and on the 26th of june 2017
00:04:13 and on the 26th of june 2017 um i think you were appointed minister for the victims of the grenfell tower fire is that right that's correct yes and whose decision do you know it was was it to create that role
00:04:25 role i can't be sure i've always assumed it came from number 10.
00:04:28 10. and what did your role and responsibilities as minister for the victims of the grenfell tower fire involved
00:04:35 involved i think they were three-fold the first was to support the victims unit in trying to give direct assistance where we could to victims and i know the word victims is sensitive but i i will use it because
00:04:47 sensitive but i i will use it because that was the name of the unit the second was to try and act as some sort of bridge
00:04:53 bridge between the community and central government at a time when it was clearly needed because the context was one of zero trust and
00:05:02 and engagement and i think there was a third longer term dimension which was a recognition that the road to recovery was going to be long and the experience from presidents such as hillsborough
00:05:13 as hillsborough suggested that there might be a value in having a minister in the system that would effectively act as some sort of advocate for the community within the system because life and politics and the media always a risk
00:05:26 and politics and the media always a risk that they might move on and that the the the critical issues that the community still require might might lose some sense of focus inside government i think there was a risk around that and so those were the three dimensions of the
00:05:37 those were the three dimensions of the role as i understood and that ministerial role am i right sat within the department for communities and local government that's right right so there you were and did that overlap with your home
00:05:49 and did that overlap with your home office role yes right now is it right that you held that role the uh minister for the victims of the grenfell tower of fire until the night 2019 general election yes when i stood
00:06:01 2019 general election yes when i stood down when you stood down did anybody take that ministership up a ministerial post up on from you uh no the arrangement with uh the prime minister was that i would continue uh to
00:06:13 minister was that i would continue uh to perform a role on a voluntary basis as an independent officer to him supported by elizabeth sanderson right
00:06:20 right now i think it's right isn't it that on the 26th of march 2020 you were appointed the prime minister's independent advisor on grenfell is that right
00:06:31 right could you repeat the date march 2020 that sounds about right are you still in that position yes so does that in does that involve
00:06:42 so does that in does that involve advising the prime minister and ministers and public bodies on grenfell related issues yes and you occupy that role today do you yes
00:06:54 yes what type of grenfell related issues would you or will you be addressing um
00:07:00 um a very live one in recent months has been uh
00:07:03 been uh the process of decision making and engagement on the highly sensitive issue of the future of the tower right
00:07:13 would your role be involved examining and advising on the effect of the report and the recommendations of this panel uh one of the uh my memories of one of the first things that that we did in the
00:07:25 the first things that that we did in the new role was to encourage new processes inside government and mechanisms of accountability to make it clearer to the community what progress was being made against the
00:07:36 was being made against the recommendations of your first report chair and that fell unfolds even today within your remit does it there's no official remit i think the role that elizabeth sanderson and i play is to
00:07:47 elizabeth sanderson and i play is to pick up
00:07:48 pick up is to stay engaged with the community pick up problems um raise them with government and where there are issues and difficulties and sensitives is try and make sure that the government fully understands the community's position
00:08:00 community's position right
00:08:03 but does that involve or might it involve examining and advising on the effect of the report and the recommendations of this panel so again one of the feedback we got from
00:08:14 so again one of the feedback we got from the community in the early days was we don't know what the government is doing in relation to the recommendations of the first report in my experience not on typically actually there was a huge amount going on but the government was absolutely
00:08:25 on but the government was absolutely lousy in communicating it so and there wasn't a system inside the government to really drive accountability for it including uh the london fire grade so our recommendation which was accepted with there would be a
00:08:37 which was accepted with there would be a ministerial group uh to drive that uh forward and within that uh process was developed to deliver a a a dashboard that the community could access which
00:08:48 that the community could access which would allow them to get to the information that they wanted specifically on the progress made against the recommendations made by this inquiry so that'll be one example of something where we'd heard some feedback from the community took it into
00:09:00 from the community took it into government and through our you know our advice to the prime minister and number 10 tried to engineer something that we that we thought was helpful right
00:09:09 right is it right that your role as described just now um it will examine the effect of the report and the recommendations of the panel based as it might be in part on the evidence you're giving today as i said
00:09:22 evidence you're giving today as i said the rematch is very broad where we feel the prime minister needs advice we will give it normally i would say in practice we are heavily led and influenced by what we hear from our relationship and our engagement
00:09:33 our relationship and our engagement with the community have you
00:09:36 have you or to your own knowledge the prime minister considered the risk and extent of any conflict inherent in your accepting that role or continuing to occupy
00:09:45 occupy that role the independent adviser to the prime minister at the same time as being a witness i don't remember any material conversation
00:09:57 conversation around that the system if i can use that shorthand um
00:10:01 um was well aware that i uh was a a core participant no no issues were raised in that respect it was any consideration government
00:10:12 it was any consideration government given to your knowledge within central government by you or anybody else to how it could be that you could one at the same time be a factual witness to the inquiry but at the same time be the prime minister's independent advisor in
00:10:23 prime minister's independent advisor in respect of it well i think with the current prime minister i think the basis of the ongoing relationship was rooted in a desire to see some continuity because there was a
00:10:34 continuity because there was a recognition that secretary of state had come and gone ministers had come and gone
00:10:38 gone and that there was value in having some people uh helping to advise who'd been involved in the in the process since the immediate aftermath of the of the terrible disaster i think that was the
00:10:49 terrible disaster i think that was the the primary driver of the current uh arrangement as i say i don't i don't recall
00:10:55 recall any conversations about potential conflicts of interest and there was um as far as i understand it awareness that you know um that i might be called here as a witness at
00:11:06 might be called here as a witness at some point in the process now um let's turn to your knowledge of the cca the civil contingencies act 2004 can i take it that you've heard of that piece of legislation i have yes and at the time of the fire june 2017 were
00:11:19 at the time of the fire june 2017 were you aware of the regulations promulgated under that act no you weren't were you aware of the statutory guidance emergency preparedness no and i think we can take it that you were
00:11:31 and i think we can take it that you were not aware therefore of the non-statutory guidance emergency response and recovery no or
00:11:38 what's being called conops which has the rather longer title of responding to emergencies the uk central government response concept of operation no no have you ever read any of that material
00:11:50 have you ever read any of that material no there was no reason for me to do so during your ministerial career have you ever or had you ever received any training on civil resilience no i want to ask you about your time as minister for policing and the fire
00:12:02 minister for policing and the fire service at the home office um but before i do can i just ask you is it the case that since january 2016 the home office was responsible for the
00:12:13 the home office was responsible for the fire funding and policy framework in which the fire and rescue authorities operated
00:12:19 operated uh i believe that's the date that certainly was my one of my responsibilities as a new minister yes now turning to june 2017 uh
00:12:27 uh was it your understanding at the time that the home office was the lead government department or lgd
00:12:33 lgd at least in respect of the immediate response it was made clear to me by who um i can't rule exactly but my expectation would be david lamberty from
00:12:44 expectation would be david lamberty from whom i think you've received evidence uh yes david lambert david lamberty and bertie forgive them yes i think he was one of the homeowners he he was a home officer he was one of my senior officials of the home office
00:12:55 my senior officials of the home office yes and we'll come to see his name when we see the list of attendees 1614 of june meeting perhaps but um
00:13:02 um can you help us when did the home office relinquish the the role of lead government department in respect of the grenfell tower response or recovery i'm not entirely sure there was a moment or i certainly i
00:13:13 sure there was a moment or i certainly i wasn't part of the moment my sense is that
00:13:17 that during the course of uh if i can shorthand thursday um there was a there was a sort of a growing recognition that that uh clg at at the time was uh uh effectively
00:13:30 clg at at the time was uh uh effectively becoming the lead ministry in terms of the
00:13:33 the evolution into the recovery phase right was it your understanding that the clg had some responsibility as lead government department for some part of the response
00:13:45 the response my my understanding was always that in in particular in relation to the performance of the local government level one responder i would naturally expect that the department with overall responsibility for local authorities
00:13:56 responsibility for local authorities would would in effect take the lead in terms of the relationship and decision makers and that's in that specific context for the blue lights uh my expectation of course would be that the home office would lead on them
00:14:09 that the home office would lead on them right and what was your understanding generally of the role of a lead lead government department in the response the immediate response to an incident such as this
00:14:20 such as this my basic understanding was that the principal role was of of leading the coordination of the kind of support of the national government to the response
00:14:31 to the response in line with the you know the processes that the legislation envisioned right did you have a clear understanding of the responsibilities of a government department i wouldn't describe it as very clear uh
00:14:42 i wouldn't describe it as very clear uh mr minute as you said at the top i i've been imposed for a day
00:14:47 yes did you understand and i'll i'm quoting from conops chapter 2 2.8 but let me put it to you um without going to the document did you understand that the lead government department usually takes
00:15:00 lead government department usually takes overall responsibility for assessing the situation ensuring that its ministers and other relevant ministers are briefed handling media and parliamentary interest and providing coordinated policy and other supporters
00:15:11 coordinated policy and other supporters necessary to local responders yes i think that was broadly what was explained to me and and and uh i was aware that the home office had led in the production of the sit reps and and and the fact that i was asked to chair
00:15:22 and the fact that i was asked to chair the first meeting i think was evidence of clarity around the role of the home office in that specific immediate context now you say it was it was explained to me was that by david lamberty
00:15:33 lamberty or other officials well it wasn't explained in great depth as we'll come on to see the circumstances that first day meant that um there wasn't a lot of time for detailed
00:15:44 there wasn't a lot of time for detailed explanation of the of the mechanics and detail roles and responsibilities i was asked to chair a meeting and was pitched pretty quickly into that yes well let's turn to that that's the 14th of june 16th meeting now it was called a cross
00:15:55 16th meeting now it was called a cross whitehall ministerial meeting um
00:16:00 um that was a meeting am i right convened by the
00:16:03 by the uh ccs the civil contingency secretariat sitting within the cabinet office that's my understanding and who was the person in that who asked you to chair the meeting
00:16:14 meeting uh the person i i i think i first met and who briefed me was was catherine hammond
00:16:20 hammond the communicator the decision about the meeting was communicated to me i think at some point in my uh visit to the tower uh around the middle of the day
00:16:31 tower uh around the middle of the day right and in general can you help us and that was related sorry that was related to me through the private office i didn't speak to anyone directly right let's go to cab five zeroes one one eight please
00:16:46 and this is um if we can get up to the bottom of the page page one we can see it's an email from alistair whitehead on the 14th of june 2017 at 1004
00:16:57 on the 14th of june 2017 at 1004 and he's sending an email to the civil contingency secretariat you see that i do and if you turn to the top of page two alastair whitehead says thanks
00:17:09 alastair whitehead says thanks i've discussed with stuart and the prime minister has asked for a cross whitehall coordination meeting this afternoon given home secretary availability i suggest we do this at minister of state level so chaired by minister policing
00:17:21 level so chaired by minister policing and fire with ministers from health transport housing london etc attending with the mayor of london and operational commanders will need to cover among other things and then there are four bullet points
00:17:32 bullet points uh and the third of which you'll see affected persons immediate and medium-term re-housing potential financial support if appropriate uh
00:17:43 uh now um the home secretary at the time i think was amber rudd is that right that's correct um
00:17:50 um clearly there was an availability problem
00:17:53 problem what was that you know i'm not aware of it right was there anything unusual about you personally being asked to chair this meeting as opposed to her given that she was secretary of state i wouldn't i wouldn't i wouldn't have known at the time because i wasn't aware
00:18:05 known at the time because i wasn't aware of presidents had never been in that situation before uh i'll be honest and say i felt it was strange at the time but when you're given that instruction you take it
00:18:16 you've given the instruction you call it an instruction who instructed you i mean you say as i said before i received a message i think my if my memory is correct on my either on my way down uh to the tower back from
00:18:29 on my way down uh to the tower back from is saying there's a meeting in white or you're you're being asked to chair it and uh we need to get back i mean i i asked the question in view of the document on the screen was it your understanding at the time
00:18:41 was it your understanding at the time that the instruction or perhaps i should say suggestion was that uh it had come from number ten
00:18:49 you can see it coming from i don't think i was clearly aware of that right now um can you help with whether the chairing of that meeting by you
00:19:00 of that meeting by you uh as opposed to the home secretary made any difference to the official status of the meeting in your understanding at the time
00:19:11 could you clarify what you mean by official status because i'm aware of this yes you were trying to tease out of katherine hammond some of the definitions around cobra um um well
00:19:20 well i'm here to be helpful so perhaps direct me to what you're particularly interested yes absolutely second line of the email
00:19:25 the email at the top of the page given home secretary availability i suggest we do this at minister of state level now um
00:19:33 now um was the lack of availability by the home secretary
00:19:37 secretary there
00:19:39 there a
00:19:40 a reason why this was done at a different minister of state level in other words a more junior minister of state level i i honestly can't answer uh that that question this is the first time i've
00:19:51 question this is the first time i've seen uh i've seen that email i was just simply told there's a meeting and you've been asked to share it was it your understanding at the time that the meeting being at minister of state level had a different status
00:20:02 had a different status from a from the same meeting had it been shared by the home secretary i think i i think i i was aware that that
00:20:12 that is a different type of of meeting and i subsequently went on to participate in the meetings chaired by the prime minister and that was clearly a different
00:20:20 different level of of meeting so yes
00:20:26 right but just focusing on the very first part of that answer when you say that that is a different type of meeting are you telling us that had amber rudd been been available for the meeting and shared it it would have had a different
00:20:37 shared it it would have had a different status a more exalted status i'm not i'm not i'm with with respect to amber rudd i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm not sure my personal if i'm allowed to express a personal view
00:20:47 view my personal view is that those first two meetings should have been chaired and populated at a more senior level and i'm happy to give my reasons why
00:20:58 my reasons why part of those reasons why i think are about signaling and we can i can expand on that if you want i i do however perhaps register some sympathy with the
00:21:09 perhaps register some sympathy with the position that catherine hammond was trying to articulate with you that i'm not entirely sure that that would have resulted in a different meeting right that's some then let's turn to
00:21:20 then let's turn to uh
00:21:21 uh the question of cobra can we go please to melanie dawes's witness statement uh for this part of the inquiries is that clg three zero three zero 30653
00:21:31 page 36 paragraph 119 and we can see there she says in the second line second sentence when the prime minister chaired cobra on the friday this was very effective it sent
00:21:43 friday this was very effective it sent greater focus through the system and had a positive impact on the wider government response and then she says this had the initial cobra meeting on the day of the fire been shared at cabinet level or by the
00:21:54 been shared at cabinet level or by the prime minister it might have provided an additional layer of questioning and challenge
00:21:58 challenge about the local response to that being provided by mhclg and the home office now first
00:22:06 now first was it was it your understanding on the day that that initial meeting was a cobra meeting as she seems to suggest there no um it was called something else
00:22:19 no um it was called something else well we can we'll see the the minute and the other documents around it but i think it was a cross-ministerial yes meeting but was it your understanding i think you said no but to repeat the question you're on is this right your
00:22:31 question you're on is this right your understanding was that this was not a cobra meeting uh that was my understanding and where did that understanding come from
00:22:42 perhaps not rooted in a deep understanding of um uh you know the the uh
00:22:48 uh the cobra system but my understanding of the cobra uh of a cobra meeting is that it's people by secretary of state and um often the prime minister in the chair that may have been my uninformed view but that
00:23:00 have been my uninformed view but that was my
00:23:01 was my my definition of what a cobra meeting is full fat
00:23:04 full fat right okay i mean what's your um what was your understanding at the time of the circumstances in which a cobra meeting full fat as you describe it would have been necessary
00:23:17 describe it would have been necessary or appropriate again i come back to the point that at that
00:23:22 that at that moment on that day i didn't have uh any profound uh personal experience of this to be uh to to be making judgments but um you
00:23:34 to to be making judgments but um you know i refer you to catherine hammond's evidence that you know a full full-fat cobra if you like is called where it's very very clear that national government has a major role to play and decisions are required by
00:23:46 and decisions are required by senior ministers and i think you heard from her that wasn't necessarily the judgment uh on the first date we'll work out in due course of course sorry didn't didn't hear from her but
00:23:57 sorry didn't didn't hear from her but but i want your understanding was it your understanding at the time that whatever it was and we're we are on the 14th of june when the meeting is called whatever it
00:24:08 when the meeting is called whatever it was
00:24:09 was the grenfell tower fire at that point was not the kind of emergency which justified
00:24:16 justified a full-fat cobra meeting no what i was told was that there was a cross white or ministerial meeting that as the minister for police and fire service two of the blue lights most directly involved in the response phase
00:24:29 directly involved in the response phase i had been asked to chair the meeting it wasn't until i got to the meeting had the briefing that i had a full understanding of the of the of the purpose meeting and went straight uh into it um
00:24:40 into it um by the time of the meeting four o'clock on that day were you surprised in your own mind that a cobra meeting properly so called as you understood it to have been had not been convened i think i've already expressed my personal uh view
00:24:53 already expressed my personal uh view that it would have been appropriate to call a meeting at a more senior level from the start now looking at what um melanie dawes says there on the screen so she says that if the meetings had been
00:25:05 been uh cobra or chaired by the prime minister they might have provided an additional layer of questioning and challenge about the local response do you agree with that no i i agree with the first part of her statement uh as i
00:25:17 the first part of her statement uh as i said i think i think that meeting should have been at the most senior level from the start but that is largely because uh of the shield weight of the moment and you know we are talking about a situation in
00:25:29 we are talking about a situation in which the the country's woken up to one of the worst disasters in our memory we all remember how we felt that day i just felt that response was not proportionate to the anxiety and trauma in the in the in the community
00:25:41 trauma in the in the in the community and and the country and that people expected to see a more senior uh level of leadership from the start that remains my private view however and i'm sorry if this is nuanced
00:25:51 nuanced i do think the fundamental problem in those two meetings from the point of view of central government was the lack of ground truth and the lack of reliable good information about what was actually happening on the ground which was
00:26:02 happening on the ground which was completely unacceptable and therefore my concern was that even if attendance had been at a more senior level the brief would have been the same the information to the meeting would have been the same and that's why i cautioned against
00:26:15 and that's why i cautioned against melanie's extrapolation that somehow that would have resulted in a different level of of challenge i think the basic problem was the lack of ground truth in those meetings now just in that last answer just picking out the thread of it
00:26:26 answer just picking out the thread of it you say you felt that the response was not proportionate to the anxiety and trauma in the community and the country and the people expected to see a more senior level of leadership from the start was that your
00:26:37 start was that your view at the time on the day or is that your view
00:26:40 your view as a result of later events well thank you for allowing me to clarify that i was
00:26:45 was i think i've already said i was surprised on the day but when you're asked to do these things you do it so it is it is a judgment that has formed over time but i i do register to get my
00:26:56 time but i i do register to get my caveats to that judgment i don't think people should extrapolate that necessary as a result of that upgrading of the meeting to a morsi level that necessarily
00:27:07 level that necessarily the experience of the bereaved survivors would have changed materially in that first day
00:27:12 first day now in paragraph 10 of your first statement i don't think we need to go to them you set out the objectives for the meeting in the chairs brief which i think you were provided with by the cabinet office correct let's go to
00:27:25 the cabinet office correct let's go to that it's at home zero four six zero eight three
00:27:33 the panel have seen it a number of times with earlier witnesses paragraph one you are chairing a ministerial meeting at 1600 on the grenfell tower fire the objectives for the meeting are to
00:27:45 the objectives for the meeting are to ensure a shared understanding of the latest situation and outlook determine any national support that is needed for the immediate response and to discuss emerging key policy issues
00:27:56 emerging key policy issues uh who prepared this document do you know
00:27:59 know um
00:28:01 um uh i don't believe i ever asked i think my assumption it was produced by ccs with inputs from other people right so not from the home office officials
00:28:13 the home office officials directly or is that wrong um i can't i can't be sure i was aware that the home office had played a role in line with their responsibility in
00:28:23 in uh assembling the sit reps and the information into that meeting in terms of who actually produced this chairs briefing i'm not sure i ever asked now um in both of your witness statements uh you've referred to the
00:28:35 statements uh you've referred to the fact as you say that nicholas holgate dialed into that meeting um i think you would wish to correct that no that was a mistake can you explain how that mistake arose it's a muddle in my mind in terms of
00:28:48 it's a muddle in my mind in terms of perhaps conflation of of of meetings i know that i wasn't alone in that model but i apologize for that model i think
00:28:56 think if i'm honest it probably also reflects the assumption that he would have been there right so
00:29:02 right so did can we take it that you had not read catherine hammond's witness statement before you provided your evidence or or i haven't seen it no no i hadn't read her witness statements
00:29:14 no i hadn't read her witness statements at the time uh in 2019 when i produced my
00:29:18 my no and there may be a chronological reason for that just to be very clear i think in the light of the answer you've just given do we have to correct do we paragraph nine of your first statement in paragraph five of your second statement
00:29:29 paragraph five of your second statement where you refer to the fact that uh nicholas holgate was on the call or had dialed into them yes and i apologize again if i've misled the inquiry anyway now um nicholas holgate um was chief
00:29:40 now um nicholas holgate um was chief executive of royal bar of kensington and chelsea wasn't he correct um and his do you accept that his attendance at this meeting given that rbkc was the local authority category one responder was
00:29:53 authority category one responder was extremely important yes um
00:29:57 um and did you expect him to attend yes i believe so
00:30:03 and therefore his absence is this right from the meeting or from dialing into the meeting by teleconference um would have been an obvious uh omission
00:30:14 uh omission an obvious gap there's always a danger of looking at these things through the lens of hindsight again i uh i'd ask the inquiry to understand the circumstance i've just come from the tower i'd walked into
00:30:26 tower i'd walked into uh the cabin office building into a briefing
00:30:29 briefing um you know i'm engaged with the need to chair a highly precious and important meeting i'm i'm going straight into a briefing and i'm being
00:30:40 and i'm being talked through the brief there's a time pressure i don't think there was a lot of time for debate around attendees and i imagine i received some assurances that the information the meeting required from the local authority was
00:30:52 required from the local authority was going to be supplied in in different ways you'll also see just a minute from the chairman's brief that the questions that you might reasonably expect to be directed at the council i'm encouraged to direct
00:31:04 at the council i'm encouraged to direct them to the minister at the community's local
00:31:07 local government so what was the source as far as you can recall of the information about what was happening on the ground and what rbkc was doing
00:31:18 on the ground and what rbkc was doing if not nicolas holgate my my understanding uh was that the information was going to be provided through
00:31:26 through the department of communist local government which is why the chair directed me to ask those questions at marcus jones i think was the minister at the time
00:31:35 the time and we also as you know had had the lord mayor
00:31:38 mayor i believe on the phone and that meeting as as well well yes now let's look then in light of that at the documents um can we go to the
00:31:46 the uh meeting minutes please these are it and i want to show you two versions of this and see if you can assist can we have up first please uh
00:31:56 uh cab
00:31:59 four zeros two seven one four
00:32:04 i'm going to have at the same time please
00:32:07 please to save time um a second or different version of the minutes at c a b three zero is one three eight one one uh and i'd like well first of all you can see we can see the first page
00:32:19 can see we can see the first page uh and um
00:32:20 uh and um [Music]
00:32:22 [Music] they look reasonably similar but i want to direct your attention please on the left hand side to
00:32:29 to under the key issues section letter b with the title immediate shelter and medium term rehousing can you see that i can yes
00:32:38 can yes and that says the local council were presently identifying temporary accommodation for those residents of grenfell tower longer-term re-housing would also be the responsibility of the council the
00:32:50 responsibility of the council the council will not currently asking for additional support
00:32:55 now um if you look at the right hand side this is a different version of the minutes for the same meeting and under the same heading under b immediate shelter and medium term
00:33:07 immediate shelter and medium term rehousing
00:33:08 rehousing it says this the minister for local government stated that the local council were presently identifying a temporary accommodation for those residents of grenfell tower longer term rehousing would also be the responsibility of the
00:33:20 would also be the responsibility of the council the mayor of london pressed for further reassurance and requested that contact was made with the local council to ensure that affected individuals are not left without accommodation
00:33:31 not left without accommodation now first are you able to help us understand why there are two versions of this minute with different texts under that heading
00:33:41 i i can't as i think the inquiry aware um these minutes were not uh circulated and uh the first time i've seen them is in preparing for um for this session that answers my next question
00:33:53 that answers my next question um
00:33:54 um then doing the best you can with your recollection um can you assist us with whether what we see on the right hand side of the screen which is longer and more detailed was what was said
00:34:08 i can't be sure where i'm guided to is the actions from them from from the meeting which explicitly uh um
00:34:16 um require the department to liaise with the council in terms of support for
00:34:22 for housing so and accommodation so that my understanding of that there would be a discussion in the meeting there may have been the position on the left stated which the council were not currently asking for additional support
00:34:34 currently asking for additional support uh and uh there may well have been a debate that required that resulted in that action the level to which the mayor of london participated in debate i can't i can't quite remember no i mean do you recall
00:34:45 quite remember no i mean do you recall first of all the minister for local government i think was marcus jones wasn't it
00:34:49 wasn't it that's my recollection yes does that help you with who is providing the update in respect of the local council i i think with respect i'd already answered that it was the department and he was the minister and he was the one i was directed to ask the
00:35:01 he was the one i was directed to ask the questions to in the chairman's briefing yes and therefore i'm sorry to him no press
00:35:06 press therefore
00:35:07 therefore is it your recollection that it was the minister for local government marcus jones who said the local council are presently identifying temporary accommodation i can't be sure because i don't have a a
00:35:18 i can't be sure because i don't have a a very accurate recollection of the flow of the conversation but but the the minute the minute states that position was stated and my
00:35:27 my extrapolation of this and the actions is that there was a debate around that point and an action for the department to liaise uh with the council and that may or may not have reflected a level of
00:35:38 not have reflected a level of uncertainty and lack of confidence in the in in the statement that they didn't need support do you recall the mayor or the mayor's representative there um pressing for the further reassurances
00:35:49 um pressing for the further reassurances identified in the second part of that paragraph on the right i can't recollect it clearly but that's not to say it didn't happen and looking at the left-hand side of the last sentence it says the council were not currently asking for additional
00:36:00 not currently asking for additional support do you recall that being said i can't remember it being uh said explicitly but if it's minuted this explicitly then um i think it's reasonable to to to assume that it was
00:36:12 reasonable to to to assume that it was stated as such yeah yes now just picking up on the chairs brief you referred to and you were right to say that you were directed to ask marcus jones the
00:36:23 directed to ask marcus jones the question let's look at that that's a date show m3046083 page two paragraph five d to the top of page two
00:36:36 that's uh hom three zeros four six zero eight three
00:36:42 and uh yeah there it is and if you look at five
00:36:46 at five d
00:36:47 d ask dclg marcus jones mp what other support has been put in place to assist those affected in particular whether sufficient rest centers have been established and if support being provided to victims families
00:36:58 provided to victims families did you ask that question do you think i can't recall explicitly uh asking it but i do note that in the minutes of the meeting if they're accurately reported it makes clear that the chair
00:37:10 reported it makes clear that the chair gave
00:37:11 gave every department the opportunity to raise
00:37:14 raise problems and what i
00:37:17 what i can see clearly is that no problem was raised in that respect or otherwise it would have been recorded in the in the minutes and i would have hoped some actions would have flowed from it so uh i'm sorry not to be more clear on
00:37:29 uh i'm sorry not to be more clear on that but that's the best that my memory can uh assist with at the moment what does the well we can see if we look back at it but take this from me because it's gone from the screen but there's no record in either version of the minutes
00:37:40 record in either version of the minutes of any discussion of that nature no and and and i i accept that where what i do see is that
00:37:48 is that that section of the conversation in the meeting
00:37:51 meeting um threw up an action in relation to liaison with the council about provision of of accommodation which suggests that there was
00:38:00 there was a debate around the position that had been stated by uh the department and the requirement of the department to liaise more closely with the council to see whether they could help with with something that was clearly uh an urgent
00:38:13 something that was clearly uh an urgent uh problem there was no discussion about rest centers or this i think if there had been a discussion on the rest centers uh it it would likely to have been recorded you'll you you will know
00:38:25 been recorded you'll you you will know that in the or the sit rep there are some basic facts about the establishment of of the rest centers it may be the department recorded that in the absence of anyone
00:38:36 the absence of anyone right and and of course this is unfair unforgivable in hindsight but in the absence of anyone raising a problem the conversation moves on and i know that's very difficult uh
00:38:49 that's very difficult uh for people to understand now we know the reality that was being endured by families at that time but no problem was right my re
00:39:00 but no problem was right my re i believe that no problem was raised in that meeting as it should have been and um allied to that let's go back then to
00:39:07 to um
00:39:08 um the version of the minutes the slightly longer version cab three zeros one three eight one one if we can get to the top of page two please we can see a section headed support for those affected and families
00:39:21 support for those affected and families and it says there was discussion around offering trauma counselling to firefighters and ambulance workers involved in the incident the minister of state for health said that nhs england provided bereavement
00:39:33 that nhs england provided bereavement and trauma counselling services and that these could be made available to those who needed it there's no record there of any discussion about actual support for the families affected
00:39:44 actual support for the families affected the bereaved or potentially bereaved is there no and i think there is a problem with this
00:39:52 this minute if i might explain because i have some personal responsibility for this particular focus on trauma counseling for firefighters so there was a discussion around it
00:40:03 a discussion around it i'm as clear as i can but it did not take place within the context of conversation around support for those affected and families why would it um and i'm happy to explain why uh why
00:40:15 and i'm happy to explain why uh why prominence was given to that issue if it's of interest to the inquiry well it might be but first i mean factual question number one was there was there a discussion
00:40:26 a discussion about
00:40:26 about this kind of counselling being offered to the families at this meeting well if i can just explain why emphasis was given on counseling to the firefighters i i can explain that
00:40:37 firefighters i i can explain that because i have personal responsibility for it so yeah i had come to this meeting straight from a visit to the tower as you might expect i'd been
00:40:49 as you might expect i'd been very affected by the horror of that spectacle i had met the
00:40:53 met the danny cotton the fire commissioner i had asked her whether she had this is all set out in my witness statement and i and she had made one ask and that was the specific ask for
00:41:05 and that was the specific ask for support for her firefighters and so i had come from that meeting with her at the time into the meeting and i had kind of one not wanted to lose
00:41:17 and i had kind of one not wanted to lose sight of that point and therefore i i registered my memory which made before to which i registered at the top of the meeting and there's a logical place to do that where the first section talks
00:41:28 do that where the first section talks about the needs of the blue lights and i believe that i would have registered that at the top of the meeting the fact that in the action list it is registered as a first action i think bears that out because
00:41:39 action i think bears that out because the action list follows the flow of the conversation so i completely understand mr minute why it would seem very strange that the meeting should give emphasis to blue light counselling in this
00:41:50 to blue light counselling in this context however important that issue is but i think the minutes play the right notes but in the wrong order right
00:41:58 right but are you saying that there was a different discussion at a different part of the meeting about offering counselling to the bereaved and the family i i think i think at the basic point i would want to try and uh
00:42:09 basic point i would want to try and uh emphasize here that as as it says at the top this was a meeting designed to flush out problems and so there may have may not have been a discussion uh about it it would have been
00:42:21 uh about it it would have been incumbent on the nhs to brief the meeting and to bring to the table any problems or any requests for additional support
00:42:28 support if they didn't he wouldn't have been registered and i think that's what happened
00:42:36 was there any discussion about what support
00:42:39 support was to be put in place for those affected
00:42:44 affected other than housing as we've seen uh not that i can directly uh recall um but again the meeting was a problem flushing meeting
00:42:55 problem flushing meeting and if people didn't recognize or didn't know there were problems that time they didn't bring it to the meeting and therefore the meeting focused on the wide range of problems
00:43:06 focused on the wide range of problems that we
00:43:06 that we did know about and as you can see from the chairman's brief there are about 18 different lines of questioning to different departments each of those covering highly sensitive and difficult uh issues and i was very conscious that
00:43:18 uh issues and i was very conscious that one of my main challenges as the chair was to get across all those issues and make sure that nothing was left out and i i i feel i i did that but again i make my central point that was a meeting to
00:43:31 my central point that was a meeting to flush out problems if problems weren't flushed out there wasn't a debate or discussion yeah and let's go back to the brief then in light of that
00:43:39 of that that's um at home six i'm sorry hom three zeros four six zero eight three
00:43:49 and if we turn to page two paragraph six you can see there that uh under paragraph six uh under requests for additional support
00:44:00 uh under requests for additional support it says ask dclg marcus jones mp if there have been any requests for mutual aid from the strategic coordination group ask if any offers of additional support have been made by neighboring boroughs
00:44:12 boroughs um what was there any discussion on that on those topics not that i can remember specifically i have noted that um in the in the in in the that's by the time of this
00:44:24 in the that's by the time of this meeting it's recorded there was an offer of assistance from hammersmith and fulham so
00:44:29 fulham so um participants who'd read the would have been aware of that right but i don't recall any debate and of course the absence of nicholas holgate or anyone from the
00:44:40 nicholas holgate or anyone from the council would have rather undermined the opportunity to have any debate about that can you explain why there wasn't a debate about about those matters
00:44:52 i can't i can't underst i can't you know it i can't explain why there wasn't any debate i think part of the explanation may lie in the absence of the council because obviously
00:45:03 because obviously you know the question that people would want to ask is why have you not taken up this offer of support and only he or his colleagues could have answered that yes now let's go then to what happened
00:45:15 yes now let's go then to what happened next after the meeting um can we go please to hom3046089
00:45:27 uh now this is a long uh a very long email um collection i think is the right word but we can go to page 14 within it
00:45:40 and at page 14 we can see an official sit rep number 4 14th of june 2017 received
00:45:48 received at
00:45:49 at 1729
00:45:51 1729 you see that
00:45:54 yes yes uh
00:45:56 uh it's exhibit number seven to your first witness statement yes and it says please find below sitrep four for the ongoing fire related incident at grenfell tower in latimer
00:46:07 incident at grenfell tower in latimer road london please direct any queries to the hofi duty officer at and there's an email address and if we go um please to um
00:46:17 um media and communications which i think we need on on page 15.
00:46:24 sorry page 16 apologies nate 15 is correct page 15 medium communications you see that um you can see that there's a question
00:46:35 um you can see that there's a question from the press about the cross ministerial meeting earlier that day uh
00:46:47 there's something wrong with my screen i'm afraid yeah um 60 meter in communications there's significant coverage on sky news and bbc news with video coverage of the fire submitted from members of the public
00:46:58 from members of the public for earlier media coverage please see please refer to previous sit reps niko took questions from the press around 1700 hours you see that i do uh and it's reported that um
00:47:11 reported that um you say after in answer to the question tell us what was discussed in the third square bullet point it says it was a meeting of senior ministers and senior officials from
00:47:22 ministers and senior officials from across the systems and i leave it feeling reassured that the resources are in place and the capacities in place to support people through this immediate emergency response what was it that reassured you that
00:47:34 what was it that reassured you that resources were in place and that there was capacity in place to support people well in part because that's what the meeting was told in large part because that was the meeting was told again it's a meeting to
00:47:45 meeting was told again it's a meeting to flush out problems and when i come back to my central point that meeting was not adequately informed by the ground truth of what was happening in the area and
00:47:59 to my eyes now in hindsight clear failures of intelligence in terms of bringing the right information to that that meeting and therefore you know
00:48:10 that meeting and therefore you know unacceptable as it looks today because it reads terribly complacently i could only report what the feeling of that meeting was which was
00:48:21 that meeting was which was at that point in time on on day one um
00:48:26 um there was um the message was you know we can cope we have the resources we have the capacity but the we there is our rbkc isn't it
00:48:39 to some degree and most importantly but you know this is a cross whitehall meeting where every department in the minute it's very clear that i left space for every department to signal any problems and
00:48:51 problems and um
00:48:52 um you know the the actions show where the debate
00:48:56 debate focus which was um immediately recognition of the challenge that the council were going to have in relation to temporary accommodation and an action that um
00:49:06 um that the the department needed to engage urgently with them notwithstanding their statement that they didn't need any support so there clearly was some active debate around that as you
00:49:17 around that as you as you as you will see from the rest of the interview the media were very quick onto the the national issue which was the fact that people were going to bed that night
00:49:28 were going to bed that night alarmed about the safety of the buildings that were in and so that that as you would expect um did occupy some space of the meeting uh in terms of administrative response to that yes indeed and you cover that next in the q
00:49:39 indeed and you cover that next in the q a yes um now by this point were you aware
00:49:43 aware that there were others not from grenfell tower but from the surrounding buildings particularly the walkways who had been evacuated and were going to be needing emergency temporary accommodation
00:49:55 emergency temporary accommodation my honest
00:49:56 my honest answer to that is i don't think that meeting was sufficiently aware of that point and i'm not sure if i my memory of the sheets or the sitreps which is what the kind of information feed at that meetings i
00:50:07 information feed at that meetings i don't think they capture that truth adequately either is my honest recollection now you you um mentioned earlier in your evidence today
00:50:18 mentioned earlier in your evidence today that you had come to the four o'clock meeting from i don't call it this the incident ground from from from the building yes correct
00:50:29 yes correct and you visited that i think in your capacity as minister for policing in the fire service at about one o'clock that day thirteen hundred hours around that time yeah yes and just just to be clear is it right that you didn't at
00:50:41 clear is it right that you didn't at that stage visit any of the surrounding areas including rest centers no i wish i had and and i can explain why not
00:50:49 why not why not
00:50:50 why not um
00:50:51 um the most practical issues that i had been informed my recollection is i've been informed about the meeting on the way down or at some point during the visit and
00:51:02 the visit and the advice was quite rightly i needed to get back to prepare for what was a a critical meeting in practical terms that's the most uh
00:51:10 uh that's the most uh direct reason in hindsight i wish i'd have gone down earlier
00:51:17 earlier um and
00:51:19 um and and and seen more there were frustrating delays in getting authorization to make a visit so in effect my visit was unauthorized now you went down there um did you
00:51:30 now you went down there um did you presumably went to the cordon correct did you go through the cordon yes
00:51:35 yes how far how close did you get to the tower my recollection was i stood at the foot of the tower with the deputy fire commissioner steve actor and the fire commissioner there were police officers there and there were ambulance services
00:51:46 there and there were ambulance services there the fire was still uh active there was a fire engine still being uh deployed and there were firefighters uh resting on the grass from memory now um
00:51:57 now um before you went through the cordon did you
00:52:01 you have a chance to observe what was happening in the streets
00:52:05 streets um
00:52:07 um i
00:52:08 i my recollection was that
00:52:15 it was very difficult to get to the site of my my my hazy recollection is that it was a confused landscape in terms of maneuvering around and and as you might expect a um
00:52:30 an atmosphere that it's very hard to describe
00:52:33 describe can you describe it
00:52:37 well i think part of the uh
00:52:41 uh you know
00:52:44 not not adequately if i'm honest uh i miss a minute i i i was in the court it took a bit of time to get there but i was in in the cordon where
00:52:53 where obviously by definition there was a sort of
00:52:56 of insulated feeling but but the horror of the building was um very powerful now um
00:53:05 now um at any part of your visit did you first of all were you accompanied by anybody from rbkc no
00:53:13 no did that strike he was strange no because i come back to the the genesis of the visit which uh was uh um
00:53:23 um rightly or wrongly i look i looked i've been sitting frustrated in the home office wanting to go down i'd be of the newly appointed police and fire service minister i felt i was in the wrong place sitting in the home office i wanted to
00:53:35 sitting in the home office i wanted to go i i as my witness statement says i'd had a conversation earlier that morning with deputy commissioner steve apter he made it clear that i was welcome to go down
00:53:45 down there
00:53:46 there and i was keen to do so i had suffered frustrations in terms of um getting authorization to do so so my lens
00:53:55 lens excuse me my lens was very much as minister for a police fire service who didn't at that stage recognize that i was about to be pitched into a sort of wider responsibility in terms of chairing that meeting in hindsight of
00:54:07 chairing that meeting in hindsight of course i i wish it would have been different because i might have gone into that meeting with some ground truth that meeting didn't have
00:54:20 right did you feel that although the home office being responsible for fire
00:54:29 fire meant that it was lead government department that you were in respect of the response to this civil emergency that you were adequately briefed and trained
00:54:39 trained in that aspect of your portfolio i don't see how i could have been given that this was day two
00:54:49 and finally on this did you observe at any time during that visit anybody from casey from rbkc or so far as you might have been able to tell kctmo
00:55:01 kctmo no i'm to be honest so i'm not sure i would have expected to i don't know what the rules around the corner were but that was a space in which the the the the blue lights were working now let's
00:55:13 the blue lights were working now let's turn to the 15th of june can we go please do hom 3046090
00:55:21 and if we could pick up the second email pl please at the foot of the page um it's an email uh from uh
00:55:29 uh your private secretary i think to the office of sanji javid uh fao james access to cash and sleeping materials
00:55:38 materials uh it is time to date 45 and the email confirms that both officers have spoken and and there were concerns raised by you and if you look at the second and third bullet points
00:55:49 at the second and third bullet points second bullet point is right at the foot of page one the minister has been told that there is an urgent issue with access to cash for former
00:55:56 former residents of grenfell tower he's also been told via margot james mp beis minister that the post office there's a local one just around the corner from the tower have offered to facilitate
00:56:07 the tower have offered to facilitate access to money for residents he would be really grateful if your teams were able to facilitate a link between the post office and the local council so that they can make people aware and then the third bullet point
00:56:18 the third bullet point there have been a couple of concerns raised with him about the quality of the sleeping materials that were available for people last night and asked if there was anything hmg could do to help the council upgrade now just looking at that um mr hurd
00:56:31 now just looking at that um mr hurd would it be right to say that based on this email concerns about residents getting access to cash and about the quality of sleeping materials at the rest center were raised with you either late on the 14th of june
00:56:42 with you either late on the 14th of june or early morning on the thursday the 15th yes yes and can you recall which it was was it was it late on the 14th or was it was this the first was it just before you sent this message
00:56:55 was it just before you sent this message no i i i i can't be sure um but
00:57:01 um but um my my instinct that these would have been concerns raised um
00:57:07 um towards the end of the day previously which
00:57:10 which um
00:57:11 um were recorded and sort of dispatched into the system first thing in the morning but i may be i may be wrong on that now let's then turn to your first contact with our bkc can we go to uh can we go please to the first email
00:57:24 uh can we go please to the first email on page one in this same email stream this is the continuation of that discussion and this is an email back from sanji javid
00:57:33 javid at
00:57:34 at 9 44 that morning which confirms that both offices has had indeed met since the earlier email at 845 and i've just shown you james it was good to meet you earlier that's how it
00:57:45 good to meet you earlier that's how it starts
00:57:47 starts and then it confirms in the third paragraph the minister is keen that one someone from hmg speaks to the ceo of the po and two link is made to the council and the residents are able
00:57:58 the council and the residents are able to access money as soon as possible unless there are already alternative arrangements in place and we can see in the second paragraph references made to the leader of rbkc
00:58:09 references made to the leader of rbkc council and specifically a suggestion
00:58:14 that the nicholas holgate be the right person for the post office to connect with you see that i do yes uh in the second paragraph there now the
00:58:25 uh in the second paragraph there now the leader of the council was nicholas padgett brown wasn't it he was yeah d did you speak to him i did at some point during these proceedings as i set out in my witness
00:58:36 proceedings as i set out in my witness statement i do not recall a conversation with him about this specific subject do you think you spoke to the leader before
00:58:45 before um
00:58:46 um but before 9 44 or perhaps before 8 45 that morning i don't i don't recall explicitly having a conversation with him about this uh
00:58:57 a conversation with him about this uh urgent issue about access to to cash um it may well be that it was processed by other people right because it's a timing point really can we i understand can we narrow down
00:59:09 can we i understand can we narrow down the timing of your call to nicholas padgett brown to at a point some point before 9 44 on that morning looking at the second paragraph it uh i can i can see why you might uh lead
00:59:22 uh i can i can see why you might uh lead to that i am i am and i'm frustrated with this i'm struggling to recall exactly when i had that call with nicholas uh paget brown because i
00:59:31 because i may have confused myself with my error about the attendance of mr holgate in the in the first meeting my
00:59:37 my my uh my best estimate at this moment is that i had the conversation with mr padgett brown at some point on the thursday morning is my best recollection and it may well have been
00:59:49 and it may well have been um in line with your um line of questioning right um okay now um in your second statement paragraph seven and we don't need to go to it you refer to speaking first with nicholas holgate
01:00:01 to speaking first with nicholas holgate the chief executive of rbkc your first conversation with him can you remember when you first spoke to nicholas holgate so i i
01:00:11 so i i correct me if i'm wrong but are you assuming that i had these conversations because i'm not necessarily assuming that from reading this email no let's go to the statement then yeah i'm not using the email to base my question
01:00:22 the email to base my question i i the first time i heard mr holgate's voice was in the meeting of the 15th of june in the cross-ministerial meeting are you clear about that are you i'm as clear as i can be here
01:00:33 clear as i can be here let's go let's just put let's see if we can
01:00:36 can be clearer even even more if we gave police to h.o.m three five
01:00:43 five your second statement paragraph seven
01:00:50 you
01:00:52 say in the middle of the paragraph my first interaction with the leadership of rbkc had been with nicholas holgate the chief executive of rbkc now that suggests that your
01:01:05 now that suggests that your first conversation with the nicholas holgate was before your first conversation with um nicholas padgett brown yes yes but i think this plays into um my misunderstanding and my
01:01:17 my misunderstanding and my muddle around which meetings mr hull gates attended so my my first recollection was that the call with mr padgett brown right followed that meeting um i'm now in doubt about the
01:01:28 meeting um i'm now in doubt about the sequence i understand so i follow i understand that so thank you in fact it's possible looking at the email i showed you that you spoke to nicholas padgett brown first and at some point before 9 44 on the morning of the 15th
01:01:41 before 9 44 on the morning of the 15th but didn't speak to the chief executive nicholas holgate until the meeting that afternoon it's possible but yes it's possible what's your rec what's your recollection so far as you probable
01:01:52 recollection so far as you probable right
01:01:53 right now when you did speak to nicholas holgate can you remember what you spoke to him about um
01:02:01 um mr holgate or mr patrick brown mr holgate so my recollection is the the my my first conversation with mr holgate was i was as
01:02:11 as chair of the inter-ministerial meeting and he was an attendee attending by phone so i never i never saw him i never had a i don't believe i had a prior conversation with
01:02:22 believe i had a prior conversation with him right now um so we essentially we have to read paragraph seven of your second statement in the light approach in the label exactly i follow now um sticking with the 15th of june
01:02:34 sticking with the 15th of june um that on that day in india around that time i think it's right isn't it that parliament wasn't sitting uh because of the election yes because of the election but
01:02:45 but nonetheless it's right that an extraordinary meeting was convened on the 15th of june yes correct yes do you know who called that meeting
01:02:56 no i mean i think i think it's what's um described as a usual channel so it would have been um it would have been an agreement somehow between the the parties at the leader of house level or at the whips level i i'm i'm i'm
01:03:09 or at the whips level i i'm i'm i'm guessing i've never asked but i assume that that is how these occasions are agreed right and what was the purpose of the meeting surprise you understood it oh i mean i'm very clear on that um uh
01:03:21 oh i mean i'm very clear on that um uh as i alluded to earlier you know this was a you know one of the worst national disasters
01:03:26 disasters uh to have affected this country in in in peace time it would be absolutely right for our democracy to um to debate and uh and discuss it uh
01:03:39 um to debate and uh and discuss it uh uh you know obviously the primary issue was
01:03:41 was um
01:03:43 um you know the local the local condition and and and issues that arise around uh support for the community affected but
01:03:50 but it was a national issue as well in which you know mps were um um uh having to having to deal with inquiries from their constituents who are either very concerned about the
01:04:02 are either very concerned about the event and the response to the end or very concerned about their own personal safety and the tower blocks they're in so it was it's a long answer but it was entirely uh appropriate that you know our democracy should not ignore the
01:04:13 our democracy should not ignore the moment
01:04:16 now did you attend a briefing session uh before that meeting i believe so and that i think was with alok sharma mp who was then the minister of state for housing and planning
01:04:27 of state for housing and planning yes and possibly other attendees as well i think andrea led some as well yeah that would make some sense well she was leader of the house she was and that meeting started uh according to the record at 13
01:04:39 the record at 13 that would that sound your recollection and i think you is this right you led that meeting together with alok sharma yes which was very unusual uh it was an exceptional meeting in every sense
01:04:52 uh and i can explain why um could you because if if parliament if parliament had been sitting uh normally the meeting would have been chaired effectively by the speaker
01:05:04 chaired effectively by the speaker and the ministers responsible would have been held to account at the dispatch box and then this was a a wholly unusual meeting where in effect i was chairing the meeting as well as
01:05:15 i was chairing the meeting as well as answering questions to the government alongside alex sharma it was extraordinary in the sense it was held in a in a different room uh it was a highly uh emotionally
01:05:26 a highly uh emotionally charged uh meeting so it was exceptional in
01:05:29 in in every circumstance now you say in your statement that you feel that a large number of questions from mps who amongst other things were concerned about the residents was there a discussion on that topic
01:05:40 was there a discussion on that topic uh yes
01:05:41 uh yes [Music]
01:05:43 [Music] and in large part it resulted in in the effectively the guarantee that alex sharma made about
01:05:52 offering housing within the local area which i think in my regulation flowed
01:05:57 flowed in part from the debate in that meeting which obviously had a large number of london mps in it as well as representatives from all over the country yeah that's just so discussion
01:06:08 country yeah that's just so discussion about
01:06:10 about uh housing was there any discussion about any other aspect of the impact of the fire on residents or more broadly families brief or potential bereaved
01:06:21 brief or potential bereaved and surrounding residents not that i can record directly that doesn't mean it does didn't happen one of the exceptional features of this meeting is that there is no recording of it as i understand it there's no uh filming of it as i
01:06:34 there's no uh filming of it as i understand it which is frustrating however to be fair to my parliamentary colleagues i record that there was a you know great deal of concern expressed uh in that
01:06:46 deal of concern expressed uh in that meeting about uh the welfare of the of of if i may say that the living victims of the fire now um according to alex sharma's witness statement we don't need to go to it but it's at clg one triple zero nine
01:06:59 it but it's at clg one triple zero nine seven three page seven paragraph twenty three the meeting finished at quarter past three fifteen fifteen pm with that accord with your recollection yes so it was quite a long meeting yes
01:07:12 was quite a long meeting yes uh and you yourself i think that very morning had raised concerns about the support being provided to those affected as we've seen from these yes yes
01:07:22 did your concerns in your mind on the morning of that day occupy any time of the meeting
01:07:31 i remember speaking to the need for
01:07:43 the state to effectively put its arms around
01:07:46 around the community i remember talking about the need to avoid plotting bureaucracy in that
01:07:52 in that process
01:07:54 process and i think that was the sort of general sense of
01:07:59 sense of of the meeting as as as well so um and obviously that meeting then flowed into the second meeting where as you can see
01:08:08 see at the top of that meeting from the minutes of the meeting that i've made it very clear that i wanted that meeting to focus on individuals yes we're going to come to that just in just a moment before we do can i just
01:08:19 just a moment before we do can i just ask you please to look at your first statement
01:08:21 statement page nine
01:08:23 page nine and go please to paragraph 27.
01:08:28 and in the middle of the paragraph you pick up the meeting with alex sharma and then just after halfway down you say i gave a statement and the meeting was also used as an opportunity for
01:08:39 also used as an opportunity for parliamentarians to ask questions of the government it was held in westminster hall and we fielded a large number of questions from mps who amongst other things were concerned about the residents being rehoused and the safety of other
01:08:50 rehoused and the safety of other buildings across the country the special meeting reflected the deep shock fell up and down the country now um
01:08:59 now um the only two topics you mentioned specifically there are rehousing and the safety of other buildings across the country was there any discussion to the best of your recollection on any other topic
01:09:11 topic i'm um
01:09:15 i'm sure i'm sure there was because i think members of parliament wanted to register their deep shock at how something like this could happen in britain i'm sure that there was a
01:09:27 in britain i'm sure that there was a uh
01:09:28 uh a discussion or position taking on why this had happened um i'm sure that a range of other issues
01:09:39 a range of other issues uh were debated and discussed um i say debated but it was it was more of a series of members of parliament giving statements and and and positions i may have just chosen
01:09:50 and and positions i may have just chosen those two issues because they fed into the they fed into the the meeting that i went on to chair well let's uh let's go to that then um that meeting started i think at 15 30.
01:10:03 started i think at 15 30. this is the second cross whitehall ministerial meeting yes alec and i went straight from parliament to that meeting right and as you told us before nicholas holgate did dial into that meeting
01:10:14 holgate did dial into that meeting he did yes and then there's the chairs brief again let's look at that hom three zero is four six one three one which is your exhibit four to your first statement
01:10:26 and as you say uh
01:10:28 uh at the top of the briefing note uh
01:10:32 uh in the third line in particular you will want to probe on progress on the provision of support to victims and the emergency services and the provision of fire safety advice to the public
01:10:43 fire safety advice to the public so so that has become is it was this right something at the top of your agenda progress on the provision of support to victims and the emergency services yes yes
01:10:55 yes yes now if we go please to um cab 4-0 is 2-7-2-0
01:10:59 2-7-2-0 let's pick up the minutes of the meeting we can see who was there from the first page then we well we can yes and you can see there you're in the chair list of names
01:11:09 names um bottom of the screen nicholas holgate dialing in uh top of page two please the chair opened by emphasizing the need for rigorous understanding of the
01:11:20 for rigorous understanding of the situation affecting individuals to inform the response was that as a result of the concerns raised with you as well as the direction in the brief i think it reflects um
01:11:30 um a growing
01:11:32 a growing understanding that there was a problem which
01:11:38 which arguably should have been almost certainly should have been there uh the day before so i i just wanted to make it very clear that i wanted to focus that meeting
01:11:46 meeting on uh support for interest individuals and understanding uh what was needed and what was going on and what was the precise problem that you were increasingly understanding oh i
01:11:58 you were increasingly understanding oh i i you know i think of it i think there was a growing sense uh that um
01:12:04 um we had not been sufficiently informed about the ground the ground truth the inquiry would be very well aware that in parallel there's a kind of very sustained and intensive sort of media story building which my
01:12:17 sort of media story building which my recollection i think this is borne out by the crips on the first day was very much around um
01:12:23 um well how how could this have happened but as then i think quite rightly soon evolved into exploring some of the failings uh on on the ground in the
01:12:34 failings uh on on the ground in the support for for the for for the community so my recollection may be hazy on that but i sensed that this was part of a
01:12:43 a overdue shift on the part of central government to really focus on actually what was happening on the ground to support
01:12:51 support um
01:12:52 um bereaved survivors and residents yes
01:12:58 mr chairman i've got a number of questions still on this minute but i think i probably won't finish before twenty past three so would you rather break at this point or do you want to finish the question uh
01:13:10 do you want to finish the question uh let let me get to exactly 20 past three and i may have come to it well the time is doesn't have to be exactly 20 fast so we can
01:13:17 we can allow you a certain amount of indulgence i don't think a witness will buy anything i don't mind two more minutes let's let's um nor do i need a break if if if you need the time well there are others who others may well
01:13:29 let's um let's take this in stages i never wanted to refuse an indulgence from the chairman um
01:13:37 um uh right let's go please to page three then item two a key issues immediately immediate shelter and medium term rehousing and it says
01:13:48 and it says those affected were being placed into hotels for immediate shelter with 77 from grenfell tower and 25 people from the surrounding area in hotels a large number of people are assumed to have gone to stay with friends and family
01:13:59 gone to stay with friends and family that the westway center had capacity for 300 to stay and only 30 were there the previous night did you have clarity at that meeting about whether those figures of those housed in tempe in
01:14:10 figures of those housed in tempe in emergency accommodation related to individuals or households what were those numbers
01:14:17 i i can't rule it exactly but i think you'll be aware from the action list from memory the two first actions from this meeting were related to clear uncertainty and
01:14:29 were related to clear uncertainty and concern about the quality of data and information available from memory i haven't got the action points in front of me but
01:14:36 of me but by now we were very concerned about the quality of information and data we had about some very basic things like how many people were in the tower and how many people actually needed support and
01:14:48 many people actually needed support and when we come on to mr holgate's testimony that was at the crux of his lack of credibility
01:14:55 right um but this i think was something that you were you'd been aware of from earlier that morning wasn't it this problem about numbers and consistency
01:15:06 uh yes it had definitely grown through the day as a as a as a as a a very clear concern that we are on on knowledge of how many people
01:15:17 are on on knowledge of how many people were in the tower and how many people needed support was not fit for purpose well let's just leave that document on the screen and can we then go at the same time please to hom three zeros four six zero eight
01:15:30 to hom three zeros four six zero eight nine page twenty one uh this is within the bundle of situation situational reports or sit reps that you exhibited nh7 and this one is at 9am on the 15th of
01:15:42 and this one is at 9am on the 15th of june as you can see yes
01:15:45 yes yes top of the of the screen yes and it's sitrep 5 and if
01:15:52 and if you go please down to page 22
01:15:59 um you can see in the um fourth bullet from the bottom that's about two-thirds of the way down your screen it says vulnerable people and families have been given accommodation overnight as a
01:16:11 given accommodation overnight as a priority including 44 families from the tower and 25 from the surrounding area there remains a shortfall in accommodation now um that's what you were told earlier in the day at nine o'clock that day but
01:16:24 in the day at nine o'clock that day but come the afternoon um your the the meeting discusses 77 from grenfell tower as opposed to 44 families did the
01:16:35 families did the did you think those figures were inconsistent i i think
01:16:39 i i think that reinforces the point i'm making which the cis9 i was part of um was getting increasingly in concern that we couldn't rely on the numbers being provided which is why the two
01:16:50 being provided which is why the two actions at the top of the the flow from this meeting are focused on data and information um as i'm sure you're aware that i believe the previous evening my
01:17:02 that i believe the previous evening my colleague alex sharma had spoken to nicholas padgett brown and had got some numbers from him about the gap between what they had and what they felt they needed yes and you'd have seen i think from the earlier situation report
01:17:13 report that confirmed 200 people have been evacuated and yet only 25 had uh
01:17:19 had uh had had spent the night in accommodation did that inconsistency concern you i
01:17:27 i i i think that just merely reinforces my central point there was too much inconsistency around numbers which is why that meeting focused very much on trying to put in place processes to improve
01:17:39 place processes to improve our understanding of the of of of the numbers yes yes thank you but we we may come back to this um of course a minute into your course but mr chairman is that a convenient
01:17:50 but mr chairman is that a convenient moment for the afternoon break i think it is yes thank you well as you know was ted we we have a break during the afternoon for the benefit of all sorts of people so we're going to take it now we'll resume please at 20 to 4
01:18:01 we'll resume please at 20 to 4 and while you're out of the room i have to ask you please not discuss your evidence with anyone all right thank you very much would you give the usher please
01:18:19 thank you just a minute 20 to 4 then please
01:35:38 would you ask us to herd to come back in please
01:35:54 all right was turd ready to carry all this thank you yes mr miller yes mr chairman thank you mr heard um can i ask you please to go back to the document we were on
01:36:04 were on uh which is a minute of the meeting uh and um
01:36:09 uh and um sorry the situation the sit rep i apologize on the right hand part of the screen okay just look at the political bullet point where it says rest centers some heated flare-ups between individuals especially regarding media intrusion the west waste rest center
01:36:21 intrusion the west waste rest center stayed open overnight for those who had not been provided with alternative accommodation further humanitarian assistance centers will open today now um first were any flare-ups discussed during the meeting do you
01:36:33 discussed during the meeting do you think
01:36:34 think not that i can recall was it clear to you how many humanitarian centers would be opened
01:36:44 i can't recall was it clear to you who was responsible for opening them up
01:36:54 uh my assumption would be the local authority
01:36:57 authority right did you leave this meeting feeling reassured that the resources and capacity were in place to support those affected by the fire the overall and most powerful recollection from this
01:37:10 and most powerful recollection from this meeting was the um complete collapse and the credibility of nicholas holgate when under questioning that is the overriding impression of this meeting right
01:37:21 impression of this meeting right and uh
01:37:22 and uh i think that might answer the next question but let's pinpoint it exactly in your
01:37:27 in your statement your first statement can we go to that please at page 5 paragraph 17.
01:37:38 um you
01:37:44 say about three quarters of the way down the block of text
01:37:50 that you began to lose faith in rbkc's ability to deal with the situation at what point on the 15th i think it is of june did you begin to lose faith in rbkc
01:38:02 you begin to lose faith in rbkc right well i think this this this meeting um was a defining meeting and i think you've heard that from from other sources it was because of
01:38:13 because of his failure to attend the previous day this was the first time effectively the council was kind of open to questions and as
01:38:24 and as we discussed before the break there was a growing concern about data the reliability and numbers and um
01:38:34 um he
01:38:35 he he really wasn't able to answer some questions that anyone might reasonably ask him expect him to answer and and you've seen the reactions to to the to the meeting i think it was
01:38:46 think it was instrumental in the the dropping of the penny across the system
01:38:52 system can you give us a a concrete example of a question which he wasn't able to answer which you would be named which you'd been expecting him to be able to answer so so my recollection that the the the the focus of the discussion is
01:39:04 the the the focus of the discussion is around housing need you you'll be you'll be aware that the housing minister alex sharma had come to that meeting from parliament where he had made effectively a guarantee about rehousing in the local area
01:39:17 rehousing in the local area you'll know that he'd been pressing the council leader i think the night before for numbers numbers numbers and it became quite clear from the questioning and the investigation in that meeting that the council weren't on
01:39:30 that meeting that the council weren't on top of
01:39:31 top of the numbers both in terms of numbers of people in the tower and the broader housing requirement and and i can still see the faces around the room of incredulity
01:39:42 room of incredulity right can i just ask you though the the alex sharma guarantee you just referred to was that to rehouse everybody affected by the fire within three weeks no that was the
01:39:53 fire within three weeks no that was the it it was a it was a it was a guarantee to bring house within the local area those who wanted to build a house in the local area there wasn't a time frame put on it in
01:40:03 in on the thursday when the when the procedure got escalated to uh what i've called full fat cobra it was effectively the prime minister that drove the decision to put a time frame on it i fully thank you and now what did
01:40:15 on it i fully thank you and now what did you do as a result of this loss of faith well i think as you can see from from the evidence around the system it was a defining moment so it was the moment that the
01:40:26 moment so it was the moment that the penny dropped with number 10 who were there at the meeting uh i think you've seen the evidence from helen mcnamara and other people from the department who at the meeting i think you've seen the reaction of catherine hammond at ccs it was the moment when i
01:40:38 hammond at ccs it was the moment when i think the system belatedly recognized that the council were failing and were not on it and that something needed to change and i think it's from that moment on that the wheels started to turn i see and do you agree
01:40:49 started to turn i see and do you agree with catherine richardson's assessment of mr holgate in that meeting that he was quite defensive and
01:40:55 and tried to assure ministers that no additional help was required i think he was still on that page and i think that was again where the incredulity and the lack of credibility started to build we couldn't have had a clearer picture
01:41:07 couldn't have had a clearer picture and what measures were in place to monitor or oversee that rbkc had the necessary resources from central government effectively to be able to carry out their responsibilities from the start
01:41:18 the start i think though those are questions best directed at the department for coons and local government my short answer were they were inadequate right
01:41:25 right did that appear to you at the time did it well by now um and i'm this may be part hounds ironside judgment i i think i as chair and the rest of the system
01:41:36 i as chair and the rest of the system were getting um uh very frustrated about the lack of ground truth and the lack of our understanding of what was really happening
01:41:44 happening on the ground and that that suggested a major information uh failure
01:41:52 did you have another conversation with nicholas padgett brown after this meeting my recollection i i had only one conversation with nicholas padgett uh brown um because
01:42:03 brown um because um obviously he um he's a political leader rather than the chief executive so i wanted to get a different perspective um it turns out the contents of that meeting were exactly the same as the conversation he had with alex sharma did
01:42:15 conversation he had with alex sharma did you speak to nicholas holgate after this meeting and indeed at any time in the ensuing few days no i don't believe so because from this meeting the wheels were turning that would
01:42:27 turning that would eventually lead to regime change and now sticking with paragraph 17 in the last sentence there you say further i appreciate that given the scale of the disaster it is likely that
01:42:38 scale of the disaster it is likely that our ukc was quite simply overwhelmed now is that a hindsight observation on your part or was that your um
01:42:46 um impression or observation at the time i think it was fast becoming the impression that at at at the moment um after this meeting i was taking
01:42:57 after this meeting i was taking calls from uh friends and acquaintances who were involved in the uh area and i had was introduced to the allen everett who is the vicar at the time at clements and james's and he
01:43:09 james's and he took me through dispassionately and the picture was emerging very clearly of of of uh totally unacceptable coordination and support for the community right so so you are to be clear given that
01:43:20 so you are to be clear given that everything that you've done up to that point
01:43:23 point including sharing these two meetings visiting the site talking to nicholas patrick brown and and at this meeting that was your impression at the time yes
01:43:32 time yes i see
01:43:34 i see now um did your impression of the situation on the ground and the reports that you were receiving you were receiving personally accord with the information coming through
01:43:45 information coming through up to that point that the council did not need support no i think that's my point there was a kind of ground truth lag um you know i think as well now documented mr holgate
01:43:57 think as well now documented mr holgate was
01:43:58 was trying to maintain a line that the council cope on its own and and the evidence was beginning to weigh very heavily that they couldn't let's get them to the friday the 16th of june can we start on that day please
01:44:10 june can we start on that day please with clg3018939
01:44:21 and this is an email from katherine richardson uh timed uh at 8 02 a.m on that day friday 16th of june
01:44:32 to helen mcnamara at the dclg catherine richardson was the deputy director
01:44:38 director within the dclg's resilience and emergencies division red red
01:44:45 and it also goes to the office of the principal private secretary at the dclg as you can see and she says that she's just taken a call from the housing minister's office
01:44:58 if you go to the subject uh clg support to rbkc
01:45:07 and if you look at the first paragraph it says thanks helen yes joe and i discussed ideally we can encourage nick h
01:45:15 h to ask us for the specific help we're offering copying alex p who should be kept cited on this i've also just taken a call from the housing minister's office nick heard is continuing to raise concerns about how the response on the
01:45:27 concerns about how the response on the ground is working eg getting information to people affected some of this is for the police rather than k and c but we should consider a stronger offer of support
01:45:37 support were you continuing to raise concerns that morning about how the response on the ground was working yes and i think it i think it's recorded um
01:45:46 um through my private offices as i've just said i had a series of calls the night before um directly from community people working as volunteers i.e sort of non-official calls that were
01:45:58 non-official calls that were really trying to impress on me how bad things were and the need for the government to get its act together now that that included a conversation with someone i didn't know who was the vicar of clements and changes
01:46:11 vicar of clements and changes right so just filling in the blanks for us there um the meeting happens on the afternoon of the 15th but our between the meeting ending and early morning on the 16th i think you're telling us that you had
01:46:23 i think you're telling us that you had discussions with people from the community yes about what was actually happening on the street yeah in the meantime of course as you as you've got evidence wheels were beginning to turn in the system that had belatedly recognized that there was a major
01:46:35 recognized that there was a major problem that required a a
01:46:37 a a a change in uh position um i was simply having those calls on those conversations and as you have evidence i fed those fed those in on the friday morning first thing yes and were those
01:46:48 morning first thing yes and were those calls coming to you or were you um soliciting them as it were finding out no they were all they were all coming to me
01:46:55 me coming in to me from people i knew who vaguely knew or perhaps um
01:47:00 um knew i was involved and found ways of getting hold of me and but someone i can't remember who offered to introduce me to
01:47:07 me to um alan everett um the book of clementines and his because obviously they were absolutely at the epicenter of of of this and had a very clear view on the failings he's
01:47:19 a very clear view on the failings he's very kind of dispassionate account of the failings left a deep impression on me right did anybody from the muslim community from the al-mal mosque for example get in touch with you or try to get in touch with you directly
01:47:31 or try to get in touch with you directly i can't remember but i i one of my first visits was there and i i heard directly from them their their experience as as well i can't put an exact date on
01:47:42 as as well i can't put an exact date on that visit but it's in my witness statement now if you look a little bit lower down the chain
01:47:48 earlier on the morning of the 16th of june you can see at a 50s at 87 57 that there's an email uh from
01:47:59 uh
01:48:01 if we go to apologize if we get a page two we can see it more clearly um middle of page two there's an email at 741 from lorna gratton at number 10 to the office of
01:48:12 gratton at number 10 to the office of sajid javid copy to aleister whitehead who was the prime minister's private secretary subject clg support to rbkc hello it says i spoke to helen mack yesterday but
01:48:24 i spoke to helen mack yesterday but after the cross government meeting there are still concerns here about how well organized the response effort is for those in receipt of it on the ground would it be helpful for them to have more support from clg e.g a small team
01:48:36 more support from clg e.g a small team of people seconded similar to the victims support unit could you let me know what you think thanks lorna um
01:48:44 um so would it be right to take from that that there were concerns within number 10 about the effectiveness of the response at this stage um before this uh email i think you've
01:48:55 um before this uh email i think you've got evidence that immediately after the the meeting that i chaired before uh lorna gratton um had a direct conversation with senior officials of the department uh to express her
01:49:06 the department uh to express her view in response to what she'd heard from holgate and i think um as i said wheels were beginning to turn the night before this is just a building of the drum beat right now just to just to
01:49:17 the drum beat right now just to just to put one more um piece of the puzzle in place could you go please to clg four zeros eight two three four
01:49:28 if we go to page one in this email run third email down this is an email from your from your office deborah morrison i think
01:49:37 think to the office of sergey javid 16th of june this is at 8 56 a little bit later than we've been looking at copy to katherine hammond hi james tom with many thanks tom for your time on
01:49:48 with many thanks tom for your time on the phone the minister is receiving direct feedback this morning that the coordination on the ground in terms of one connecting families and two coordinating the volunteer effort is not quite there and is perceived as chaotic
01:50:00 quite there and is perceived as chaotic he feels it would be helpful for us collectively to identify who is actually responsible for coordinating both efforts as in a person and what if any more support they may need
01:50:11 more support they may need now that direct feedback was that the feedback you've just been explaining to us in in in other words direct conversations you were personally having with people on the ground i believe so that's my reaction to your
01:50:23 i believe so that's my reaction to your question yes yeah and what did you do as a result of that feedback uh what i've just described which is i've fed it into the fed it into the system uh and i think that this is just
01:50:34 system uh and i think that this is just um one of the proof points of of that so this is you essentially feeding it into sergey javid's office yes because yes because by that time um clearly his department was uh leading
01:50:47 clearly his department was uh leading yeah right um
01:50:50 um now following those issues being raised by your office with dclg um what did your office continue to do better to support the local council with the problems they were facing locally
01:51:02 the problems they were facing locally you asking what we what i did what you did what you and your office did uh we we registered this concern um we asked that question uh i think that reflects
01:51:14 question uh i think that reflects um the feedback that um that you've had from evidence that one of the fundamental frustrations and causes of distress was the inability to identify any leadership or reliable sources of
01:51:26 leadership or reliable sources of information or any visible coordination of the
01:51:29 of the of the humanitarian sport if i can use that language and they've been a delay in setting up the coordination mechanism for that
01:51:38 for that so at this point i am registering concerns and asking questions you'll be aware that around about this time or very shortly after
01:51:47 after a decision had been a decision had been quite rightly taken to go to full fat cobra with the prime minister in the chair
01:51:55 as i think a result of the drum beat i described
01:52:00 described earlier in terms of growing awareness that
01:52:03 that um there needed to be change then um let's move on in sean i think if by a few minutes later into the morning of the 16th of june cab
01:52:14 june cab 401152 please this is an email from your office to catherine hammond at the civil contingency secretary at 9 33 if we go please to the second email
01:52:25 9 33 if we go please to the second email on the prep on the page can you see that i can and it comes again from your um private secretary deborah morrison uh and it says catherine thank you so much for your time on the phone earlier
01:52:36 much for your time on the phone earlier this morning so was this you speaking to her or was this your private secretary speaking to catherine this uh hammond this is my private secretary yes
01:52:45 yes um as we discussed she says in advance of the meeting this afternoon the minister would be really grateful if the secretariat could pull together a written summary of what we are doing across the system to
01:52:56 what we are doing across the system to one support victims two provide support for emergency services personnel three action taken to so far to identify and check similar buildings
01:53:07 buildings four action taken so far to re-house people and what is our common understanding dlg rbkc of the commitment to re-house people locally five action taken so far to reassure
01:53:18 five action taken so far to reassure people about their fire safety and six an update on access to cash and how it's working on the ground stroke any updates from local banks question mark we've touched on all these questions over the last two meetings but the minister
01:53:29 last two meetings but the minister thinks it would be helpful to have a summary that we can work through point by point he feels it's important that we use this meeting to really stress test the reality on the ground given the conflicting reporting
01:53:40 conflicting reporting and as this is likely to be the handover meeting before we switch into recovery mode would that be possible now why did you consider it necessary to convey that detail all those questions
01:53:51 convey that detail all those questions to the cabinet office the ccs because i because i think the the assumption the context here is that i we are preparing and expecting for a third in the series of the
01:54:02 for a third in the series of the meetings that i chaired um and i wanted to be sure that that meeting kind of drilled down into the issues that we'd raised and some of the challenges we raised so i think this is to the cabinet office
01:54:14 to the cabinet office asking them to prepare something specific for me in the anticipation as i think you can see from the the the email at the bottom of the page that i would be chairing the next meeting as we now know
01:54:26 next meeting as we now know um
01:54:27 um the decision was taken that um that uh the prime minister would quite rightly chair the next meeting now going back to the bottom of page one um you can see that i read to you that you are
01:54:38 can see that i read to you that you are recorded as feeling it important to use the meeting to really stress test the reality on the ground why was that necessary what had led to that need
01:54:47 that need because of the cumulative picture that i've tried to to convey to you that um this process of cross whitehall coordination was
01:54:56 terribly undermined by
01:54:59 by poor information lack of ground truth and data that wasn't keeping up uh with reality which made a difficult decision-making environment uh even harder so
01:55:09 harder so i think this is partly an exercise of a chair wanting to make sure that there was momentum and continuity from the last meeting and that we really drill down into what we said we would look at and what felt most important at the time
01:55:22 and what felt most important at the time and what was the conflicting reporting you need to go to the top of page two i'm afraid but if we go to the top i think
01:55:29 think well let me please just check that
01:55:34 given the conflicting rule so i i i think this uh in part um relates to the the point that you were trying to tease out of me which is around the confusion around data and and and numbers which was causing uh
01:55:47 and and numbers which was causing uh real frustration so inconsistent reporting from ibkc rather than conflicting reporting from different parts of government
01:55:56 is that i think it's the former to the best of my recollection now i think you just made the point but confirmed for us that you at that stage still expected
01:56:07 that you at that stage still expected that you would be chairing the further cross whitehall meeting that afternoon yes yes
01:56:14 yes yes and if we go please to clg four zeroes eight two eight nine we move further forward into the morning sixteenth of june page one second email
01:56:26 sixteenth of june page one second email in chain please towards the bottom of page one
01:56:29 page one here's an email from alistair whitehead at 10 50
01:56:33 at 10 50 it's confirming that the prime minister had decided to chair the meeting that that afternoon herself and if we go to the top of page two please you can see what she says for what he says all the
01:56:45 what she says for what he says all the prime minister has decided that this afternoon's ccs ministerial meeting will now be the first meeting of the prime minister chaired grenfell towers recovery task force in 1330 in 70
01:56:56 recovery task force in 1330 in 70 whitehall ccs will confirm with a calling notice with soses from dclg ho dfe dwp moj hmt dh attending along with the policing and fire minister minister
01:57:08 the policing and fire minister minister for london operational partners and the mayor of london and rb kensington and chelsea
01:57:14 chelsea the should be circulated by 12 noon uh and then there's a list of bullet points uh which are the topics and that it's clear that those topics those six topics have
01:57:25 that those topics those six topics have been
01:57:26 been either cut and pasted or very closely copied
01:57:29 copied uh or mirrored um those set out in the topic list that deborah morrison had sent at your instruction earlier that morning see catherine hammond it looks very similar this is the first time i've
01:57:40 very similar this is the first time i've seen this email so right
01:57:43 right right
01:57:44 right um
01:57:45 um do you know what it was that changed to take this from a ministerial meeting number three to a prime minister chaired task force meeting uh i think the prime minister's personal
01:57:57 uh i think the prime minister's personal visits
01:57:59 visits that if i recall the timing correctly the day before will have had a powerful effect upon herself um she was by then and i'm simply deducing this from the evidence that you've received receiving
01:58:11 evidence that you've received receiving advice
01:58:13 advice uh
01:58:14 uh that um
01:58:17 you know the the the council was failing and there were major problems about uh the the support for uh for the community should have been advised uh that it was time to escalate
01:58:28 advised uh that it was time to escalate uh the um
01:58:30 uh the um uh
01:58:31 uh the the process uh because it was likely that the central government was likely to play a bigger role than perhaps have been imagined at the start now i think you continue to attend the meetings i do become known as the task
01:58:43 meetings i do become known as the task force meetings i do yes
01:58:48 yes and
01:58:49 and just pick this up at cab 30 is 11967
01:59:01 here is an email from alistair whitehead
01:59:08 um late on the day of the 16th at 1825 to catherine hammond where he says we're going to have another pm chair meeting tomorrow sorry
01:59:21 chair meeting tomorrow sorry given the seeming chaos on the ground due to our bkc not gripping this we'll then maybe do a call on sunday but hopefully
01:59:27 hopefully not a full physical meeting was it still the case on the saturday 17th of june notwithstanding that the prime minister was now chairing what was called a task force
01:59:37 force uh that uh rbkc was still not gripping this or rather that there was still chaos on the ground due to rbkc not gripping this as you said
01:59:48 as you said given that uh by that stage rbkc had ceded control to john barredale as
01:59:56 as london local authority gold by that stage
02:00:00 stage um
02:00:01 um why was there what was there an expectation that our bkc would grip it or continue to do so
02:00:12 uh no this may be um
02:00:15 um uh i i can't speak for for for for alistar in that contest this email is obviously um going out around the point of the transition i don't think it changes the fact that the
02:00:27 fact that the that there was chaos on or there was perceived to be chaos on the ground and the need
02:00:31 the need for a clearer sense of grip which a pm chair meeting would would bring um then then sticking sticking with the 16th i think andrea ledson visited rpt
02:00:42 16th i think andrea ledson visited rpt didn't she rugby portobello where she met a volunteer called soft mcveigh and eddie defon do you remember that
02:00:50 that i wasn't with the phone i wasn't with her i remembered that she visited the area
02:00:56 area and do you recall let me show you a document iws triple zero two two five zero
02:01:10 um here is an email from soft mcvay uh
02:01:16 uh and
02:01:19 you can see that it's timed at 9 22 on the 26th of october so it's a long time afterwards but if you go then down to the foot of page 1 you can see another email much
02:01:31 page 1 you can see another email much earlier in the string on the 22nd of june 2017. and then if you turn to page two uh you can see
02:01:42 uh you can see uh
02:01:43 uh that this is a response to andrea ledson from sophomore mcveigh and here you see underneath that bay's emailed to andrea ledson on the 17th of june at 1650. thank you for coming to visit rpt
02:01:55 thank you for coming to visit rpt yesterday we were together in a meeting with eddie at grenfell tower resident first thing in the meeting you gave the impression that your priority would be to get someone in charge in place as a matter of priority and act in a coordinating
02:02:06 of priority and act in a coordinating capacity
02:02:07 capacity as it stands there are a number of local groups mainly staffed by volunteers working 24 7 trying to deal with this disaster there is no central coordinated point of contact for information all
02:02:18 point of contact for information all residents needs the government needs to appoint a minister stroke department and team in charge immediately to coordinate all the different relief efforts most of the people on the ground are volunteers or community-based operations most of us
02:02:30 or community-based operations most of us do not have disaster experience or training there's been no lead on this very urgently no one has been visiting the hotels to check the residents some are elderly all are very disoriented
02:02:41 are elderly all are very disoriented disoriented and most do not have english as a first language for example just now an rpt volunteer had to drive a doctor from the west way to one of the hotels grief counsellors and medics need to be
02:02:52 grief counsellors and medics need to be at the hotels on a daily basis now um i i don't see that we don't see that andrea ledson responded to the email but my question
02:03:03 responded to the email but my question for you is did did she discuss these topics with you at that point no that i recall would you have expected someone in her office to have raised these matters with you
02:03:16 i was only aware of a visit i wasn't aware of this conversation or or what the substance of her visit was so she raised is this right no concerns with you about the need for a single central government point of contact for
02:03:28 central government point of contact for bereaved survivors and residents not that i recall but that doesn't mean that she didn't raise it with others
02:03:36 now we've already you've already touched on the creation of the role of minister for grenfell victims do you recall whether the need for such a role arose
02:03:47 a role arose either wholly or in part from the concerns raised by soph mcveigh and edward daffon with andrea ledson on the 16th of june as recorded in this email i don't believe so directly although
02:04:00 i don't believe so directly although obviously this very powerful email talks to
02:04:05 a lot of the entirely unacceptable reality of of experience of people who had every reason to demand better so i think it's although i've never seen this uh email
02:04:16 although i've never seen this uh email it it it's absolutely consistent with the picture that was beginning to form in the government's mind which is why on the friday you can see very clear evidence of the central government mobilizing in a way that it
02:04:28 mobilizing in a way that it hadn't done so on the wednesday i mean did the government give thought to appointing a minister or department and team in charge to coordinate all the different relief efforts
02:04:39 different relief efforts at this time or later so the the the two meetings i chaired were designed to coordinate the support of central government to support
02:04:50 support of central government to support the the response and recovery process uh as per the blueprint of the civil contingencies act 2004 and the presumption of uh sovereignty and everything that you've
02:05:01 sovereignty and everything that you've uh
02:05:02 uh explored so there was a coordination function up and running from from the start as i've the point i've labored is i think that process was
02:05:14 process was uh terribly undermined by the quality of information that went into that system
02:05:20 you say terribly undermined i mean was this an enduring flaw or or had it been was there a time when it came to be cured by the fact that john baradel was now in charge
02:05:32 baradel was now in charge and uh pan london arrangements were in place
02:05:36 place it it certainly and you've got independent advice on that it it improved quickly now let's turn to the 17th of june um it's right i think that you and amber
02:05:47 it's right i think that you and amber rudd the then home secretary visited the westway center that day correct whom did you meet there um we met a range of people
02:05:58 um we met a range of people the meeting that sticks most closely in my mind is a meeting i i'd organized with a
02:06:05 with a representative group of volunteers who as you well know were by then a very very important part of the landscape in terms of support for the community and i felt it was important
02:06:16 community and i felt it was important for
02:06:17 for amber rudd to hear directly from them some of the issues that they faced and one of the issues that they faced was the issue of money being distributed to affected families wasn't it yes one of one of a number of issues a number of issues also including support for people
02:06:29 issues also including support for people in hotels and guest locations so those problems were persisting yes yes notwithstanding the appointment and um
02:06:37 um entry into action of john varadel the day before although yes to be fair he'd he'd he'd only been in the seat for for a day and he was inheriting uh a chaotic um
02:06:48 um uh a chaotic landscape so to be fair to him i think it would be reasonable to expect him to have a little bit more time to
02:06:54 time to um impose improvement yes i think you observed a number of problems
02:07:00 problems uh with the response uh which you wanted to raise with john baradar yes and we have a letter to that to that effect yes uh a joint letter with amber wrote here i joined with that is hom
02:07:11 wrote here i joined with that is hom let's put it up in front of you hom three zero four six zero nine one that's the letter isn't it that's the letter yes uh and it goes to john uh it goes to um
02:07:22 john uh it goes to um um
02:07:24 um robert and john john is um john and john baradel who's robert i'm not entirely clear who robert is um i apologize for that uh it is going to david gawks
02:07:36 is going to david gawks mp's pps and it may be him um in that letter there's a long letter and there's a list of problems in it but were all those problems persisting at the time of your visit
02:07:47 your visit um
02:07:50 i assume so because they relayed directly to us on that day yes now if we um look please at the last paragraph you can see that if
02:08:01 the last paragraph you can see that if the letter was also sent to number ten if you go to page two please
02:08:06 yes it goes it goes to gavin barwell aleister whitehouse and others number number 10. uh and you say in your first statement that you were subsequently given to understand that the 500 pounds cash
02:08:17 understand that the 500 pounds cash payment would be distributed to the affected families on the 18th of june um and then they would get a chip to enable them to receive the 5 000 payment what was the source of that information
02:08:30 the source of the information of the problem the source of the information of the process to be run by our bkc um i can't i can't recall um but i think through the the crips and the sit reps
02:08:42 through the the crips and the sit reps there's a reasonable account of how that the mechanisms of payment were were set up right
02:08:52 and do you remember that the confusion about about distribution of money was one which was first grasped on i think we've seen this from your own email early in the morning of the 15th of june um but was still uncured as at
02:09:06 of june um but was still uncured as at the 17th
02:09:08 the 17th yes i think i think i i may be wrong on this but the the the earlier conversation with the post office was um about making it easier for people to access
02:09:18 access their cash um this is a conversation in part about uh the ability of people to access the cash that was um uh promised by the prime minister on
02:09:30 uh promised by the prime minister on i believe the day before yeah yes in fact i think the record shows and correct me if i'm wrong about this but this was still a problem on the come the 19th of june the monday
02:09:40 i i believe so yes do you know why why was it a problem that endured through the weekend i don't think i'm the person best place to give you a reliable answer on that
02:09:51 to give you a reliable answer on that well um
02:09:53 well um can you give us a clue not one that you can rely on all right um
02:10:01 um but would you accept though overall that the policy governing how payments would be made were still being devised within government as late as them yes i mean i don't think that's completely surprising the policy i mean obviously the prime
02:10:13 the policy i mean obviously the prime minister wouldn't have announced it if there had
02:10:17 there had been some pre-cooking uh as it were but it wouldn't be uh completely abnormal for some of the detail to be worked out subsequently and some things probably
02:10:28 subsequently and some things probably not thought through fully that needed to be ironed out i don't think that in itself would be completely surprising let me let me show you what sadiq khan says about has said about this can i show you his statement please
02:10:39 show you his statement please mol 50189
02:10:42 mol 50189 page 14 paragraph 60. i'll read it to you
02:10:47 you he says
02:10:50 page 14 paragraph 60. one thing
02:10:55 one thing from that meeting that stuck out in my mind
02:10:58 mind and this is the meeting on the saturday uh which you can pick and you can take this from me pick that up at paragraph 57 yes i remember he says one thing from that meeting that stuck out in my mind was a fairly lengthy discussion that
02:11:10 was a fairly lengthy discussion that took place about how much financial support should be given to families displaced from their homes either in the tower or close by and whether this should be paid as a lump sum or in installments there appeared to be a reluctance by some to give those who
02:11:21 reluctance by some to give those who needed support this payment in a lump sum a figure of 500 pounds was discussed to be given to families who had lost everything in the fire as in quotes installment closed quotes rather than a
02:11:33 installment closed quotes rather than a lump sum of five thousand pounds which i believe was based on relief given to those forced to leave their homes in areas across the country hit by floods
02:11:40 floods i recall
02:11:42 i recall i if we can turn the page please
02:11:46 i recall i intervened to ask why it was an issue here in the grenfell community to make one lump sum payment rather than installments when it hadn't been the case after a flood i couldn't understand
02:11:57 case after a flood i couldn't understand why the residents of grenfell tower would be treated any differently and said so
02:12:03 said so it was eventually agreed that this would be paid as one lump sum of five thousand pounds
02:12:07 pounds looking back i consider this the symptomatic of the prejudice and institutional indifference towards the bereaved survivors and residents we were to see in the months and years that followed
02:12:17 followed now
02:12:18 now first
02:12:20 did today khan to your knowledge say or raise the the point about difference in treatment between the victims of floods on the one hand uh who got a lump sum
02:12:32 on the one hand uh who got a lump sum and the victims of all the residents of grenfell tower on the other i recall there was a discussion about the right structure i don't recall it in the terms that siddiq khan relates
02:12:45 the terms that siddiq khan relates and
02:12:46 and i can't to be honest recollect him having a direct intervention into that conversation that of course doesn't mean it didn't happen there was a discussion for sure right
02:12:57 for sure right and were you party to the discussions leading to the eventual agreement that it would be paid as a lump sum of five thousand pounds no because this at this point this is being uh driven i presume by dwp and the
02:13:10 being uh driven i presume by dwp and the treasury and from from memory there was it was 500 cash and balance in the bank account uh i may be maybe wrong on that there was definitely a discussion around what was the right balance and structure but i don't but i
02:13:22 balance and structure but i don't but i think it was entirely being driven by what what's the most sensible and appropriate thing to do rather than some of the assertions that can you enlighten us us what was the reason for the difference in treatment
02:13:36 to be honest i'm not aware i wasn't involved in the flood uh in in the flood process so i'm not aware that there was a difference in treatment or why if there was there should be right now the mayor's
02:13:50 there should be right now the mayor's retrospective or hindsight opinion is that it was symptomatic of the prejudice and institutional indifference towards the bereaved survivors and residents that he says we were to see in the months and years that followed
02:14:02 months and years that followed do you share that view no i don't but you might expect me to see that what i do absolutely accept that the response in the immediate after the fire
02:14:13 response in the immediate after the fire was
02:14:14 was uh
02:14:16 uh uh wholly inadequate um and might have led some people to believe there was institutional indifference no i know there wasn't but i understand why some people might have felt that
02:14:27 why some people might have felt that can we then turn to hom 30s 46091
02:14:38 which is the letter again and if we go please to the foot of the screen support for people in hotels it says it was clear that many of the families were being housed in hotels were not
02:14:49 were being housed in hotels were not receiving sufficient care and attention for example some had been housed on the top floor of buildings there were complaints of hotels not providing food at times suitable for those fasting which given the makeup of the area was a significant number of people there was
02:15:01 significant number of people there was also the feeling that people in hotels were out of sight and out of mind john do kensington and chelsea housing have the results they need to engage these families one-on-one to ensure that they're okay do you need any support
02:15:12 they're okay do you need any support from hmg
02:15:14 from hmg and the john is john baridale there did you receive it yeah did you receive a response to that question uh i didn't personally i don't know if amber rudd got a formal response to this
02:15:25 amber rudd got a formal response to this or not
02:15:26 or not looking further down communications it was clear that the communications work that had happened to date was not filtering down to the ground this is not necessarily a surprise where people do not have phones
02:15:38 people do not have phones and then it goes on as such the home secretary is commissioned her director of communication simon ren to produce a leaflet on behalf of the government clearly setting out government advice in multiple languages this will then be distributed to the community now this is
02:15:50 distributed to the community now this is the 17th this is the saturday why was why was that not considered sooner why were the leaflets not considered sooner um
02:16:00 i can't i can't i can't necessarily answer that
02:16:05 what i am very clear about is that was one of the clearest takeaways from that visit i remember hamburg being particularly exercised by this and it's consistent with all the evidence you've received that
02:16:16 all the evidence you've received that one of the most common and utterly reasonable complaints was you know no one was telling us anything we simply didn't have the information that we needed at a time when we desperately needed and that message
02:16:28 needed and that message uh you know amber and i received loud and clear and she was determined to take an immediate action like the context of that treatment was we were on effectively on a on a fact-finding visit it was about trying to build our
02:16:40 it was about trying to build our understanding of what was actually happening on the ground that reflected our lack of confidence and what we've been told up to that point so by this point
02:16:47 point another department was in the lead but we we wanted to sort of play our part in trying to find out do you know when a leaflet did eventually get i think it was very quick um within days would you accept that
02:16:58 um within days would you accept that that could have been it should have been done fast yes like many things
02:17:05 let's um then go please to hom3046081
02:17:13 this is your exhibit 14.
02:17:17 it's a letter from the local mp then emma demp code to amber rudd the then home secretary and as you can see a paragraph two on
02:17:28 and as you can see a paragraph two on that page towards the foot of the screen i should have shown you the date it's the 17th of june 2017. yes paragraph two under the heading immediate support for those affected there must be officials from all relevant government departments
02:17:40 from all relevant government departments and agencies on site to deal with benefit claims identity documents any issues related to immigration status and all other key administrative and bureaucratic issues did officials from the home office first
02:17:51 did officials from the home office first arrive at the westward center only on the sunday the 18th of june and not earlier i believe it was sunday i believe there were three departments there on the
02:18:02 were three departments there on the sunday and the home office was one of them but not before i believe not and why was that
02:18:10 i can't i can't i can't be sure uh it may well be that as part of our visit it was clear to us that the government needed
02:18:19 needed more visible representation uh on on the ground and it may well be that uh amber uh accelerated that as a result of our visit but i think it is also part of a broader process of
02:18:31 is also part of a broader process of central government um weighing in more heavily being more visible being aware of the need to provide support in the case of the home office a clear need to help with replacement of documents for example
02:18:43 replacement of documents for example immigration documents or all manner of a manner of documents but including uh immigration documents right i think it's right that the home office set up a 24-hour telephone line to assist with immigration and passport issues yes
02:18:54 issues yes but only i think that may have front run the physical presence but i may be wrong on that right and that i think was some four days after the fire in the end it wasn't until the saturday or the
02:19:05 it wasn't until the saturday or the sunday
02:19:07 sunday that may well be the case right and you know why it took so long because i think it feeds into the the bigger wider problem which is uh central government was too slow
02:19:19 uh central government was too slow and i think there was some can you help with this there's some conf there was some confusion around the automated menu which was established which didn't make it clear that there was a specific line for grenfell related inquiries did you
02:19:31 for grenfell related inquiries did you come to know that um if i did i don't recall it today you can't help with that i'm afraid i can't now you also visited the scene and surrounding areas on a number of
02:19:44 surrounding areas on a number of occasions after the 14th i think one was with alex sharma on the 19th of june is that right there wasn't a visit it was a public meeting a residence meeting i think it was
02:19:55 a residence meeting i think it was wasn't it
02:19:57 in truth i i think this is confirmed from other events it was it was a meeting predominantly but not exclusively with the bereaved as it turns out at all events was it at the harrow club it was
02:20:08 harrow club it was right and if you go please to hom 3046086
02:20:14 you can see a letter dated the 24th of june
02:20:26 yes that's it uh
02:20:30 uh which
02:20:31 which starts dear all thank you for inviting us to join the community safety partnership meeting on monday evening the monday evening was the 16th i think sorry the um the 19th
02:20:43 sorry the um the 19th yes
02:20:44 yes and then
02:20:46 and then it covers a large number of topics um and we can scroll down we can see practical support at the westway center financial support and then if we scroll
02:20:57 financial support and then if we scroll to page two we can see re-housing for people whose homes were destroyed and there in the first bullet point is the prime minister's commitment to re-house everybody within three weeks
02:21:09 re-house everybody within three weeks and then to page three support for people whose homes are not fit for habitation immigration and then public inquiry can you help us why was that letter only
02:21:20 can you help us why was that letter only sent some five days after the the meeting the first meeting of the meeting on the 19th why was it only sent on the 24th of june
02:21:32 um i i can't be sure it would it would have been a letter that would have to be cleared through the system sometimes that can be unacceptably slow in this context it clearly was unacceptably slow and can we go to the clg five clg four
02:21:45 and can we go to the clg five clg four zeros four three zero four
02:21:51 and this takes us outside the seven day period
02:21:54 period but um it's at the email of the 29th of june 2017
02:21:58 june 2017 from helen mcnamara to a number of people in the dc in dclg including the office of melanie dawes subject reflections on today's meetings
02:22:11 subject reflections on today's meetings and it says this afternoon suzanne and i accompanied nick heard and liz sanderson from number 10 to a series of community meetings at st clements church in north kensington and then if you cast your eye down a
02:22:22 and then if you cast your eye down a little bit further it there's a title general reflections and it says we are still letting these people down they do not feel as if government is responsive and we must fix
02:22:33 government is responsive and we must fix that clearer lines of communication will help but we have to be much more active and present in person at every level if we want people to believe that the government cares and will keep its promises they consistently said they
02:22:45 promises they consistently said they wanted things written down our housing letter is a very good idea and we need to think about doing more of that
02:22:54 and then the second bullet point is about the hardest question why was it possible to be clear about the numbers who were in the tower
02:23:03 the tower third bullet all of the groups were critical about the lack of any visible authority on the ground in the immediate response and still now now
02:23:12 now focusing on the first bullet point and the criticism perhaps in the in the third bullet point did you share helen mcnamara's views that she that
02:23:23 views that she that that are reflected in her reflections as a result of the meeting that you had with her that day yes and can you explain why it was
02:23:34 and can you explain why it was that even as late as the 29th of june you were of the view that the government was still letting the local community down
02:23:45 um by then
02:23:50 by then i i take her on the new role that you asked me out on the start and as i've said in my witness statement um i'd taken the decision to try and have personal meetings with families or
02:24:02 personal meetings with families or individuals that wanted uh to see me and and and through those meetings as well as trying to help them with their personal issues uh you know a picture was forming
02:24:13 issues uh you know a picture was forming clearly about how some of the the failings that were still uh in the system and the way that people um you know continued to feel let down i
02:24:24 um you know continued to feel let down i i would also say that because of the failure to grip it in the early days the situation that john baradan has inherited was made even more was made even more difficult and as i think others have said if you if you
02:24:36 think others have said if you if you don't get a grip on these things early then it becomes very hard to to um
02:24:42 to um to to reassert any sense that um um you know
02:24:49 you know the system has got the the situation under under under control i think that the perceptions were set very early and were very difficult to shift and as i think helen points out to there was a huge problem
02:25:01 points out to there was a huge problem in terms of trust uh and can we look at your first witness statement please page seven paragraph 22
02:25:10 you say uh in the second sentence top of the page it was not evident to me that a blueprint existed for managing the aftermath of the grenfell tower disaster
02:25:22 disaster what
02:25:23 what what do you mean by that what point are you making um i i'm in part making a perception that i was walking into a system that was in shock because it had not anticipated an event like this in
02:25:35 not anticipated an event like this in terms of some of the worst case planning and
02:25:40 so i think that was reflected in some of the early processes i think with the benefit of hindsight that statement also takes on board um
02:25:52 takes on board um the reality that the system struggled to adapt to the reality of the grenville
02:25:59 grenville disaster and a situation in which one of the first level responders clearly couldn't cope but wouldn't admit it so you're making a point about that there was a it is it's a bit of a hindsight point but but
02:26:12 it's a bit of a hindsight point but but but the system struggled to cope with a what i think was a first-time situation where um
02:26:21 where um one of the first line responders was not asking for help in a system that was built on the premise that if people needed help they asked for it thank you very much mr those are the prepared questions i've got for you
02:26:32 prepared questions i've got for you although there may be one or two others i have inadvertently missed so i'm going to ask the chairman now to take the normal break uh a little bit later than i would have liked him to do that but i'm going to do that
02:26:44 that yes well i think you may have been here when i explain to the last witness why we have to have a break at this point so i won't go all through that again but we'll we do need to have a break i should think 10 minutes is enough isn't
02:26:55 should think 10 minutes is enough isn't it mr miller but if i said 20 to 5 wherefore yes 25 would be and if you need more time you can always jump we'll break until twenty to five and then we'll see if there are any more
02:27:07 then we'll see if there are any more questions at that point all right thank you thank you very much would you give the action please
02:27:19 hello mr millet if you find you need more time just listen yes thank you mister thank you very much
02:34:45 would you ask us to herd to come back in please
02:34:58 mr turd well we'll see if there any more questions
02:35:00 questions yes yes mr chairman uh just one question ms uh mr heard uh and it's this i'm looking back on it looking back on the visits you had at the time your interactions at the time
02:35:11 interactions at the time and reflecting on it now is there anything
02:35:13 anything that you would have done differently in the role you occupied at the time well i'm ashamed you know of the failure of the system i was part of to provide
02:35:24 was part of to provide you know fellow citizens with the most basic support and comfort that they had every reason to feel totally entitled to in
02:35:32 in arguably their darkest uh i thought hard about this i i i genuinely feel that
02:35:40 feel that i did the best i could with the information and experience available to me but if the inquiry feels that best wasn't good enough i like others will be held to
02:35:49 held to account for it i have very briefly two reflections i was part of a system that
02:35:58 that failed
02:35:59 failed to be alive early enough to the possibility slash probability that the kensington chelsea council would not be able to cope and this isn't a judgment around
02:36:10 judgment around preparation or even competence i think it should have been evident to us earlier that the scale and complexity of the seismic impact of this disaster
02:36:21 of the seismic impact of this disaster was always going to be too much for one council
02:36:25 council to cope with add to that the very
02:36:30 clear impression that was forming quickly on the first day that the council was going to struggle to have the moral authority to lead i think that we collectively should have been
02:36:40 been quicker to put in place risk monitoring that gave us more direct observation of what was happening on the ground that in turn might have empowered us to be more effective in our challenge
02:36:53 us to be more effective in our challenge of the council and i and i and i think of my chairing of the first meeting and wishing that we'd had better information about the reality of life in the rest centers i think of my first conversation
02:37:04 centers i think of my first conversation with with nate padgett ground and how i would have played that differently if i'd known what i know now so i regret that i have a second reflection which i don't think has
02:37:15 reflection which i don't think has perhaps come through in other evidence part of what upsets me most about the evidence that you've been presented with um
02:37:23 um from bereaved survivors and residents in that period was the way people were made to feel
02:37:28 to feel and you've had language are those in personal second class citizens that specific incidents totally unacceptable and
02:37:37 and i have was concerned that i'm can still concern now about the degree to which those involved in the human contact in the emergency response are trauma-informed
02:37:48 trauma-informed i i know i wasn't sufficiently trauma but we are we are talking about a community in in deep trauma and those helping them or trying to help them
02:37:59 them need to be in my view better informed about what that actually means and i don't feel that's been picked up elsewhere um but it's
02:38:08 it's it's very clear to me those would be my two reflections and then i have just one closing comment with your permission chair um
02:38:15 chair um so you you have for reasons that i completely understand decided to draw a line on the seventh day and i totally respect and understand that you will be as whereas anyone that you know the road to recovery and what
02:38:27 you know the road to recovery and what some people call a new normal um
02:38:31 um you still work in progress as i think some statements have put it and continue to be very difficult for many people one observation i may having been involved in this process is
02:38:45 where any progress has been made it has been where the state has realized that it needed to think and act differently the critical distinction between doing things with people rather
02:38:56 between doing things with people rather than doing things to people and where we have had any progress is where the nhs or even the council under new leadership have recognized that to make that work you need people to
02:39:07 to make that work you need people to work with and i know that i would be supported by many people who worked in the public services over these years to want to acknowledge that you know
02:39:18 you know individuals families committees representative groups who took
02:39:25 took uh
02:39:26 uh in many ways a very brave decision to engage with us despite everything that's going on in their lives despite every reason not to trust the state took a decision that they wanted to work with us to try and help
02:39:37 wanted to work with us to try and help us make better decisions on behalf of their representatives or or their neighbours and i know many people would just want to register our thanks and gratitude for that it's an
02:39:48 and gratitude for that it's an extraordinary community that deserved a lot better thank you thank you
02:39:54 well mr hurley it only remains amita thank you very much for coming here and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely grateful to you say thank you very much thank you thank you i just heard i must add the thanks of
02:40:05 i just heard i must add the thanks of my in thanks but also the thanks of my fellow members of the panel to you for coming to give your evidence i think you've
02:40:11 you've been able to give us very unusual might even say unique perspective on some of the aspects that we're examining in this module and it's been very helpful to us and i
02:40:22 and it's been very helpful to us and i think i can say with some confidence that we've learned a lot thank you very much indeed for giving up the time to come and give evidence to us thank you chair i know how important your process of delivering truth and
02:40:33 your process of delivering truth and accountability is to the community and and and
02:40:36 and and and i wish you every strength in there thank you thank you very much and now of course you're free to go thank you thank you
02:40:54 thank you very much mr millet yes now that must be it for the day mr chairman thank you and again thank you to everybody including our transcriber for sitting a little bit later to
02:41:05 sitting a little bit later to accommodate yes me and the witness and uh tomorrow we'll have another witness yes ms mcmanus who will be examined by ms milholz thank you and so we break there and we resume at 10
02:41:16 we break there and we resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning thank you thank you very much