Opening evidence session examining the outbreak and origin of the fire at Grenfell Tower on 14 June 2017, including the initial call to the fire brigade, the first crews on scene, and the early stages of fire development.
00:00:16 so much
00:00:22 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to hear further evidence from firefighters in the course of today
00:00:30 of today yes mr. Willet Thank You mr. chairman and please may we call our next witness who is firefighter Thomas Abel
00:01:23 yes or no evidence
00:01:27 I do something I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm I shall give the evidence I shall give
00:01:38 I shall give the evidence I shall give to be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth thank you very much morning mr. April
00:01:49 thank you very much morning mr. April good morning and are you happy standing or will you be standing yet very good thank you if at any time you want to sit please just say and you can sit okay could you please give the inquiry your
00:02:00 could you please give the inquiry your full name
00:02:00 full name my name is Thomas Charles Abel thank you very much and you have a statement which has been given to the police and provided to the inquiry which you should
00:02:11 provided to the inquiry which you should have in a small bundle in front of you yeah tab 5a and the relativity reference to that is M et quadruple zero eight zero five five eight and attached to it
00:02:25 zero five five eight and attached to it I think two documents your contemporaneous notes handwritten which is M et quadruple zero five six nine nine and your statement M et quadruple zero five seven zero zero so far as of
00:02:38 zero five seven zero zero so far as of statement is concerned mr. Abel it's dated the 13th of December 2017 have you read it recently yes and are its contents true can you confirm yes thank you have you discussed your statement or
00:02:50 you have you discussed your statement or the evidence that you're going to give today to the inquiry with anybody before coming here today no can you just give me a thumbnail sketch of your career at
00:03:01 me a thumbnail sketch of your career at the London Fire Brigade starting with when you joined our Jordan fire brigade in September 2011 I started my basic training performance at subject training centre after that I was posted to north
00:03:13 centre after that I was posted to north kensington fire station on the red watch that'll be in early February 2012 and I've been there ever since
00:03:23 and at June 2017 what was your rank firefighter firefighter may have set out details in your statement of your training but I'd like to ask you just one or two questions about the following
00:03:35 one or two questions about the following that may be particularly relevant to our or work you say that you're considered competent in the first line of the second paragraph of page one could you explain what competent means competent
00:03:46 explain what competent means competent means after finishing training school you're on development you have a development folder that you need to complete you complete various aspects of the job role after a certain amount of time and proving that you're competent
00:03:57 time and proving that you're competent in different areas you get signed off as a competent firefighter and you get to take these things or diamonds off your helmet so people could see that you are a competent firefighter I think I was in about 2013 I would became competent
00:04:09 about 2013 I would became competent right and when as soon as possible before June 2017 were you graded competent or was it just when you when
00:04:21 competent or was it just when you when you left training it's when I was that it was 2013 when I finished my development folder as it's called you'll then competent and they become a just a comes to the fire fire circuit will you reassess that any time between then and 2017 it was an ongoing assessment
00:04:33 2017 it was an ongoing assessment through from finishing training school to that time right high-rise fires is the subject I just want to investigate with you a little bit were you as at
00:04:45 with you a little bit were you as at June 2017 aware of any fires such as shepherds court or lack nor house I was
00:04:56 shepherds court or lack nor house I was aware of Lakmal house sir a case study I looked at in 2014 for the brigade in Christmas 2014 and I was at the Shepherd's caught fire you're at Shepherd's court yeah and what did you
00:05:09 Shepherd's court yeah and what did you learn from your case study about lachrymal house that you've just told us about in 2014 the case study was a long time ago I can't remember that the real ins and outs of what we learn but it was obviously at that point well the most
00:05:21 obviously at that point well the most unusual and worst fires that the brigade to dealt with yeah but I really can't remember the content it's too long ago okay was there anything in that training that you remember about what would
00:05:32 that you remember about what would happen when compartment within a high-rise block is breached I can't remember okay good can you remember anything about whether you learned anything in that in that program about the spread of fire on
00:05:46 that program about the spread of fire on the exterior of a high-rise block no I can't under so you can't remember one way or the other I don't know he's long a long time ago okay and Shepherds caught you say you attended yeah how was
00:05:57 caught you say you attended yeah how was that at the same time as Mike Dowden and the rest of red watch I believe it was yells and the same machine as Mike Dowden right do you remember who attended from red watch in addition to
00:06:09 attended from red watch in addition to you and mr. Dunn the only people I remember what me my governor Mike Dowden and Charlie batsub he was there yes he was riding a different machine and got a little bit later right I can't remember anybody else from that fire and do you
00:06:21 anybody else from that fire and do you remember what stage in the progress of the Shepards caught fire you arrived I believe it's one week it was made pumps 8 so we were a bit of a later attendance and the fire was in full swing when we
00:06:32 and the fire was in full swing when we arrived what did you see when you arrived I saw a multi Department fire they'd spread up the building could you see what was on fire on the outside of the building it looked to me just like
00:06:43 the building it looked to me just like the windows the area around the windows was on fire right ok and in your career
00:06:55 was on fire right ok and in your career at North Kensington have you attended calls to fires in high-rise buildings before yes when and where can you help the one doc remember will be Trellick tower which was around a month and a
00:07:07 tower which was around a month and a half two months before grenfell tower and that was a fire in one compartment for in one compartment yes and in very short terms what were
00:07:18 yes and in very short terms what were the lessons that you learnt as a firefighter from attending the fire at Trellick towers not really any lessons but one thing that happen there was the wet rising main was defective and
00:07:29 wet rising main was defective and wouldn't work so that delayed us in making entry through that compartment yes how often prior to June 2017 did you receive training in relation to fighting
00:07:41 receive training in relation to fighting fires in high-rise residential properties we have a regular trainer that's in our diet I believe the last time before grandpa was actually just a few weeks before having just been at tronic tower we were
00:07:53 having just been at tronic tower we were looking at high-rise a little bit more so that was a premade Fire Brigades training package that would've been delivered by watch manager down and and can you remember what the focus or the takeaway you like from that particular
00:08:06 takeaway you like from that particular training program was just a few weeks before it was just a general refresher in the basics of high-rise firefighting sort of what's - an arrival sector ization of the building you know stuff
00:08:19 ization of the building you know stuff we would already know from previously training school but just to refresh your memory right anything about how to deal with the fire on the exterior of a building know anything about what would
00:08:30 building know anything about what would happen if compartment ation was breached know anything about what you might do if you had to consider partial or total evacuation of a high-rise building your
00:08:45 evacuation of a high-rise building your witness statement at page one in paragraph two you say at the end of the first line the last realistic
00:08:57 first line the last realistic firefighter training I've had for a high-rise block of flat was in the summer of 2016 the course was called back to basics and comprised of a case study lecture on the lateral house
00:09:08 study lecture on the lateral house high-rise fire the course also had a practical element to it where we carried out a drill relating to a high-rise fire we used Hammersmith Tower to do this could you just tell me a little bit
00:09:20 could you just tell me a little bit about the case study first of all do you remember what were its basic elements I need to mention that the case study I think since do the statement I might have confused why I just mention to you
00:09:31 have confused why I just mention to you about the lack of the house hastily I did in 2014 with the contents of this back-to-basics session I don't leave it was about locking the house now I see okay so everything you've told me just
00:09:42 okay so everything you've told me just now about your 2014 the place to the questions are on the case study I see okay and let me just press you a little bit though the practical side of it you
00:09:54 bit though the practical side of it you say you did a drill relating to a high-rise for you used Hammersmith tower to do this could you just describe for us what you did
00:10:02 did in practical terms when carrying out the drill related to a high-rise fire using hammer Smith's Tower again that's a long time ago my memory is not great of that day I just remember I was a pump
00:10:15 day I just remember I was a pump operator in that drill so my job is just to augment the water supply right and I can't remember what anybody else would have done that that drill in there different job roles it's a long time ago okay you also described in your
00:10:33 okay you also described in your statement in the as base first the second part of the second main paragraph you say in the first sentence in addition to this I would have completed
00:10:44 addition to this I would have completed the breathing apparatus refreshes course this is a breathing apparatus refresher that we have to pass annually and you say it's a two-day assessment comprising a theoretical and practical elements um
00:10:57 a theoretical and practical elements um could you could you clarify whether the fresh refresher training takes place over two days every two years it's - every two years yeah over two years I said annually mebut every two years and
00:11:08 said annually mebut every two years and is there a one day course in the intervening year yeah there's another one-day course which covers a little bit less we do that once a year I believe yeah right as you see do two years one year it's like two days one year one day
00:11:21 year it's like two days one year one day the next yeah two years two days one day I see and and what are the basic elements of what you learn in these
00:11:32 elements of what you learn in these courses again its refresher training so it's tough you basically already know a bit it's just getting you back to grips with it on the two day course I believe the first day is comprised of more classroom based Theory sessions you
00:11:44 classroom based Theory sessions you might do a case study of a certain fire and the second day will be comprised of drills where you go into a fire box and learn how to deal with the heat and then another one where you do a drill in
00:11:55 another one where you do a drill in putting out that fire pretending it's a real job
00:11:58 real job can I just explore something with you did you get any training at any time or any sort of intelligence or education of any kind about what should what should happen when you're
00:12:09 happen when you're when your whistle goes to warn you that your hair is getting low well hi right and you're in a high-rise building ideally you want to be out before your whistle blows you have a pre alarm which starts going off when you have I think
00:12:21 starts going off when you have I think less than 90 bar pressure in your set which is a warning that you need to get out but we're trained to get out before all that happens right so so are you
00:12:32 all that happens right so so are you trained as to what to do when you're in a building say halfway up a building carrying out firefighting or a rescue and your whistle gaze what are you
00:12:45 and your whistle gaze what are you trained to do at that point well I well theoretical you need to get out of that building if your whistle goes because you need to get out okay are you given any training as to what
00:12:56 are you given any training as to what choices you might have as opposed to just getting out at that point no oh can I just turn then to the next topic which is your own personal
00:13:08 topic which is your own personal professional experience on high-rise fires what frontline experience do you have in fighting actual fires and actual high-rise buildings I've not fought fire
00:13:20 high-rise buildings I've not fought fire in a high-rise building until the night I grant file tower yeah okay so when you say in the second last line of the second paragraph from page one I have
00:13:32 second paragraph from page one I have never fought fire you do you mean that Granville town is actually our first high-rise actual fire you attended Ivy Tech I've attended high-rise fires but I wasn't in a be a crew that went into the
00:13:43 wasn't in a be a crew that went into the building and extinguished the fire drinking right and if you look at the bottom of page one and over to the top of page two of your statement you refer
00:13:54 of page two of your statement you refer there to the state policy and you say the stay-put policy is a policy the lfb use when fighting fire in high-rise buildings unless the fire is in your
00:14:06 buildings unless the fire is in your flat you should stay within your flat and wait for the fire brigade to attend and to put it out and then he goes off I've just read it all to you the advice would be to stake hood and wait until
00:14:17 would be to stake hood and wait until the fire brigade can make an assessment whereupon they will instruct you on to do next this relies on compartment compartmentalization working high-rise
00:14:28 compartmentalization working high-rise buildings are designed said that the fire is isolated to the one affected flat now I've read that all to you because I've got one or two questions just about that to unpack it but first
00:14:39 just about that to unpack it but first of all can you tell us where you get that overall knowledge about stay put from well that's my general understanding from over the years of being in that in a job it's not actually
00:14:50 being in that in a job it's not actually I believe in lfb policy is it's a building's policy that we will adhere to if we're there yes and is the understanding that you've reflected there in your statement something that you were trained to understand or is it
00:15:03 you were trained to understand or is it an understanding that comes from it comes from experience or in my case it's come from experience but I don't recall having a training package specifically designed about the stokke reporting
00:15:15 designed about the stokke reporting right when you say experience what what kind of experience are you drawing on will you when you say when you explain your stay-put understanding well it's a it's a known facts that you see that when you're going to the high-rise buildings in our ground you see the
00:15:26 buildings in our ground you see the tablets on the on the walls they say this building operates a staple policy so that that's what that's where you see it I see okay so is it right you're describing here generally what you see
00:15:38 describing here generally what you see by way of standing policies that building owners applied to buildings that you go into yeah is that is that your I just need you to clarify that
00:15:49 your I just need you to clarify that yeah it's not enough to be a policy if you submit this to do with building and people who want like okay and your understanding so I just to press this a little is it are you telling us that your understanding is is of stay put is
00:16:02 your understanding is is of stay put is that that is the policy generally the building owners apply on a sort of standing basis to the buildings that you visited as a firefighter a high-rise
00:16:13 visited as a firefighter a high-rise yeah they might have experiences right you say the first sentence of that paragraph the statement policy is a policy the lfb use when fighting fire in
00:16:24 policy the lfb use when fighting fire in a high-rise building what do you mean there by the lfb use again that's probably not fully correct I'll say we work with it but it's not an LP policy you say you know we're with it
00:16:35 you say you know we're with it what do you mean well if you know it's got the building's got a sleeper policy then that'll be the advice to residents to stay where they are so you go with the policy the building owner is put on the building yeah and do you receive or
00:16:50 the building yeah and do you receive or did you receive any training as to but let me just put the question a slightly different way if you look at the top of page two then the second line you say this relies on compartmentalization
00:17:02 this relies on compartmentalization working did you receive any training as to what you as a firefighter should do if you or your incident commander thought that compartmentalization wasn't working the ownership the training we
00:17:14 working the ownership the training we have four components ionization failing will be to use a covering jet and spray that above that compartment to prevent it from spreading to any flats above
00:17:25 it from spreading to any flats above also the side that's not always possible depending of the height of the fire though right so covering jet that will be on the exterior of the building on the exterior yeah what training if any
00:17:37 the exterior yeah what training if any did you receive in what you would do in relation to a statehood policy if compartmentalization failed from the inside don't pull any training for that
00:17:48 inside don't pull any training for that right
00:17:54 and in the context of your statement this relies on compartmentalization working this is in the context of stay put
00:18:02 put did you receive any training as to as to what to do with the stapler policy if you are incident commander perceived that compound compartment ation is not
00:18:13 that compound compartment ation is not holding no so we're you trained us to what alternatives there would be as to
00:18:25 what alternatives there would be as to stay put
00:18:26 stay put what alternatives to stay put you would use in the event the compartment ation failed no can I turn now to another topic which is your familiarity with
00:18:38 topic which is your familiarity with Grenfell tower did you ever attend a familiarization visit there Grenville tower I did that the last one I could remember I caught a she can remember the
00:18:50 remember I caught a she can remember the date but it was during the renovation of the tower that wasn't the fault 72d visit as I recall it was - we be informed that the dry rising main was
00:19:02 informed that the dry rising main was under some form of construction to be extended we had to go along and see what our plan would be if we were to have a fire in that few day period that the dry riser was off the run okay let's just
00:19:14 riser was off the run okay let's just take this as in stages if we can can I just get the time of the year first of all do you remember whether that visit was winter time or summer time III I believe you probably summer time but not
00:19:26 believe you probably summer time but not right and that was the last one was it before the ground filled tower fire in June 2017 in terms of familiarization yeah right are you drawing a distinction between
00:19:37 are you drawing a distinction between familiarize ation and what I call 72d visits well there's a little difference there because we were call for what like a specific thing just to look at that situation with a dry riser so it wasn't
00:19:48 situation with a dry riser so it wasn't the fully blown seven to D visit where we look at other things right okay I'll come back to this dry riser visit in a moment just in terms of what you call full-blown 72d visits did you ever go on
00:19:59 full-blown 72d visits did you ever go on a full-blown 72d visit to Granville tower in your read watch at North Kensington I can't remember one no but okay then going to the team but I might call the dry rising main does it but so that's not too too
00:20:13 main does it but so that's not too too much of a label do you remember who gave you instructions to do that visit I don't remember you gave the instruction I just was informed on the watch manager
00:20:24 I just was informed on the watch manager on the day that we were going to make to visit okay and do you remember being given specific things as to what to look for no we're just literally go in there
00:20:35 for no we're just literally go in there to see what our plan will be your overall plan or just to look at I Drive other than the dry riser I see okay so can you just run me through what happened when you turned up a Granville
00:20:47 happened when you turned up a Granville town okay it's a long time ago but I believe we I think we might met with some contractor on site I didn't speak to that person I believe that was Mike Davin right I think we just thought of a
00:21:00 Davin right I think we just thought of a plan of action which I think involved hauling a 70 millimeter piece of hose to the ground firewalker mezzanine level to or when the water supply while this dry riser has been extended I see okay and
00:21:14 riser has been extended I see okay and what was the state of the building construction at that time do you remember I just remember it being a bit of a working site that sort boarded off and yeah is mid construction here do you remember whether there was any
00:21:25 remember whether there was any scaffolding or or scaffolding did you get a chance to look up at the exterior of the building I would have seen it but I didn't really pay a massive deal of attention to the outside of the building can you remember what you saw when you
00:21:37 can you remember what you saw when you when you saw it no do you remember seeing any cladding or no sandwich panels or anything like that no do you remember whether you know from your own
00:21:48 remember whether you know from your own knowledge were there any of your fellow visitors from red watch looked up at the building and noted the presence of cladding or sandwich panels I don't know
00:22:01 and how long did the visit last i cought last didn't know I'm it's difficult I it's two years ago yeah roughly maybe maybe half an hour a rough estimate did you get a chance to
00:22:17 a rough estimate did you get a chance to look at anything else while you were there other than the dry rising main locations I don't looking anything else now okay
00:22:23 now okay and did you report when you got back to the station as to what you'd found what you you would do the event of a fire well that would've been reported by the officer in charge okay and did you go
00:22:37 officer in charge okay and did you go inside the tower on that visit briefly I think to the to the lobby area which lobby area the the what was then I believe the ground floor lobby area the mezzanine ramp our walk level I think
00:22:50 mezzanine ramp our walk level I think now just to see where we would be plugging in that our hose when you have a fire in that a few day period I see I see and that that state when you visited you refer to the ground fell Lobby mezzanine level was that still connected
00:23:03 mezzanine level was that still connected to the walkway opposite the south side of the tower that yeah so so if you wanted to access the tower main entrance
00:23:15 wanted to access the tower main entrance why would you get in at that time at that time you would have gone to put the concrete stairs onto ground fire walk that are opposite the where now is the main entrance on the now gravel level okay and
00:23:33 when you went to the tower did you see what the standing general advice to residents of Grenfell tower was on your visit not that time no no you say not at
00:23:46 visit not that time no no you say not at that time it had any other time I don't corner okay say there's the answer never is the icer right yeah no no never ah I can't read this guy's Stoke their game
00:23:57 game now if you look at the bottom of page two of your statement this is picking it up in your statement where you talk about your visit you say
00:24:08 where you talk about your visit you say there and the top of page three you refer to the last time I had been in the tower was whilst it was being refurbished and then you say this was
00:24:20 refurbished and then you say this was for home visits to flats here we spoke to residents and we gave them general far advice we also made sure that their fire alarms were working did you or
00:24:33 fire alarms were working did you or anybody else first of all keep a record of which flats and residents you spoke to to give general fire advice - no
00:24:44 to to give general fire advice - no would that be normal well actually we wouldn't per se I think it would have been kept on a central home fire safety visit database right
00:24:58 home fire safety visit database right okay let me just explore the the advice you say you gave them general far advice could you describe that for us
00:25:10 could you describe that for us what was that general what we're doing was what call home fire safety visits so you'll speak to each individual resident of other property you'll talk them both what they're doing the event of the fire
00:25:22 what they're doing the event of the fire what their knowledge was about however get out if they practice their escape plan you'd also talk about their cooking habits and bedtime routines so which suggests people close doors at their
00:25:34 suggests people close doors at their times too if there were a fire keep them safe in their compartments yes it's a general visit too and also we install smoke alarms if they need them free of charge right and you in your answer just
00:25:48 charge right and you in your answer just now you said that you would talk to them about what their knowledge was about how they would get out and practice their escape plan can you just enlarge on that
00:26:00 escape plan can you just enlarge on that yeah given grenfell towers layout what advice did you give or would you have do you think he would have given in my aspect I am out I would have told them
00:26:11 aspect I am out I would have told them to stay put because that's what we would expect the policies to be in all sort of a residential high-rise blocks okay but you say the answer that you gave you
00:26:22 you say the answer that you gave you gave us that what their knowledge was as to how they would get out and practice their escape plan what I want to ask you about is what advice you gave them as to how to get out and their escape plan I'm
00:26:35 how to get out and their escape plan I'm talking in a general term there that would more apply to a two-up two-down house not the high-rise I'm just talking in general terms there about own fire safety I see so when we talk about what
00:26:47 safety I see so when we talk about what advice you gave to the ground floor residents in particular did it did it cover advice as to how to get out and what their escape plan might be all the proper ways if the fire is in their compartment we'd say closed doors get
00:26:59 compartment we'd say closed doors get your seven others out let's go downstairs outside and make sure we phoned 999 to raise the alarm right now that'd be the extent of what we're well I'd say okay did you give them any advice about what they should do if they
00:27:11 advice about what they should do if they I thought all found out that there was a fire elsewhere in the building and they were beginning to suffer the effects of that such smoke or heat it will be the
00:27:22 that such smoke or heat it will be the same voice if they felt though becoming involved in the fire it'll be the same thing too
00:27:26 thing too if you could get yourself and others out if you feel that you can't get out try and find the room for safety with the cleanest air hopefully by a window close the door use bed sheets and what not to
00:27:38 the door use bed sheets and what not to block of any gaps in the door and phone 999 right okay how many other firefighters at cleansed in Kensington North Kensington red watch accompanied
00:27:50 North Kensington red watch accompanied you on giving those kinds of visits and advice so I've been here you know sorry yeah how many other people at North Kensington red watch accompanied you when you gave that kind of advice we
00:28:01 when you gave that kind of advice we usually work in twos team hairs okay and who else who was your buddy I Brent fell I believe that day it was so far far doggie doing how many trips or to give that kind of advice to do making your
00:28:13 that kind of advice to do making your time at red watch to Grenville to grab our tower that's the only one I remember that's why and do you remember roughly how many residents you spoke to and gave that kind of advice to I think me and
00:28:24 that kind of advice to I think me and crystal you may have spoken to about four different flats of residence how are those flats selected there's a list that we were given by the brigade of people who need it to be spoken to so
00:28:37 people who need it to be spoken to so let me give advice and how is that list put together do you know I'm not hundred percent sure I think we there'll be known as a priority people I don't know
00:28:48 known as a priority people I don't know the ins and outs of how these people are selected but we are just works off that list
00:28:52 list okay where anybody but in the list so it was anybody on the list who people you spoke to people who were elderly or children or had for example mobility
00:29:03 children or had for example mobility issues I can't remember I don't recall any mobility issues but I can't remember do you remember having any difficulty communicating your advice because of any language language questions no you say
00:29:16 language language questions no you say you're sure that the advice you did give them was understood clearly by the residency
00:29:20 residency yes okay
00:29:34 can I turn them to the night of the 14th of June yep and a page two paragraph three you've described the journey and
00:29:48 three you've described the journey and you mentioned a call sheet in the second line you say this information is found
00:29:59 line you say this information is found on a piece of paper called a call sheet it is that the same as a tip sheet that's the same as tip sheet that is the de jure right and is that piece of paper generated by a system yes that the
00:30:12 generated by a system yes that the mobilises system in a station so will receive the call from a system of control and they'll print it out of a teleprinter in our washroom and that'll be the course loop the call sheet okay
00:30:24 be the course loop the call sheet okay and whose responsibility is it on the watch to take the tip sheet out of the machine and then take it to the pump that be that we the washroom attendant is responsible for going and receiving
00:30:36 is responsible for going and receiving the message and confirming with control it's been received by pressing a button on a screen okay I think you'll then find the drivers will also join them in the room and to look at where the location is and it did not sure look in
00:30:48 location is and it did not sure look in the map for reference so you know where you're going and do you remember who the washroom attendant was on the night of green fields house fire I don't remember who it was now okay it
00:31:01 I don't remember who it was now okay it was it was it anybody who who then joined g27 one and juice at g27 two and attended the fire yeah they will have ascended the fire yeah though is it one
00:31:12 ascended the fire yeah though is it one of us one of the members of the crew yet I see it's not somebody who stays behind no that'll never accrue okay and this tip sheet does the whole crew normally look at the tip sheet or is it just something that's kept by the watch
00:31:24 just something that's kept by the watch manager or the crew manager it'll tend to be held on to you by the officer in charge but if they feel they need they need to give any information out they can pass it back to the crew behind or get more information about where we're
00:31:35 get more information about where we're going to this it is required okay in your experience what normally happens to the call sheet the washroom attendant will rip it off it's in two parts so one we go to the pump
00:31:46 we go to the pump that's one of my machines you that will go to the ladder the other one of our machines to have one per machine OC and I'll tend to stick with the officer in charge
00:31:55 charge you sent two parts is it like a carbon copy with two - yeah two bits to it a part that stays at station and two parts that rip off together as you go to the
00:32:06 that rip off together as you go to the student chains okay right now and after the incident what happens to the piece of paper is it filed or is it left in
00:32:17 of paper is it filed or is it left in the cabin and swept out with all the other I think this gets wrapped so it was a significance or job you could hold on to them but we do have a log of the on station anyway on the teleprinter even in speed that can be printed off
00:32:29 even in speed that can be printed off again right later date okay now in your statement you say in the middle of that same paragraph I could see that it red fire flat 16 Grendel tower
00:32:40 fire flat 16 Grendel tower Lancaster West estate then you see I could see for call signs attached to this call making it a four appliance call now you may not know this mr. Abel
00:32:52 call now you may not know this mr. Abel but we have information that the original dispatch was for three appliances - from North Ken and Kensington 331 and then that was swiftly
00:33:03 Kensington 331 and then that was swiftly changed within a minute or two to four hour since learn this year right - your recollection is what what's your recollection of my recollection no will be incorrect because it would have shown
00:33:14 be incorrect because it would have shown the three on that course look at the time okay so do you know why you said four when you made your statement okay that'll be the predetermined attendance for that for the built for their high-rise for pumping appliances so
00:33:25 high-rise for pumping appliances so that's why I'll write that oh I see so when you said I could see for call signs attached to this call are you it's clarified with me do you mean that on the tip sheet it's sure what the
00:33:36 on the tip sheet it's sure what the predetermined attendance was or did it show what actual calls for actual pumps had be made it would show what actual pumps would be made at that time but it
00:33:47 pumps would be made at that time but it was obviously a mistake later learned slightly wrong there all right now you say you were posted as driver that's in your next sentence I as I was posted as
00:33:58 your next sentence I as I was posted as driver
00:33:59 driver my responsibility to get to the scene of the fire as quickly and safely as possible how does the posting work at
00:34:10 possible how does the posting work at what point do you get posted to be driver most people start the shift right so you have a roll call where you learn which position you'll be riding on the on fire engine okay and how is that distributed yeah I think
00:34:21 how is that distributed yeah I think it's a randomly generated list okay it's what people would get sends get rotated round different job roles oh I see and who distributors the distribution you know I see the officer in charge can
00:34:32 you know I see the officer in charge can do it or they can hit a random button which randomizes the who goes where I see and the watch manager and the crew manager are they ever placed it to be
00:34:43 manager are they ever placed it to be drivers do they ever pace themselves no they'll be sitting on the front next to the driver but they they won't drive okay so is it a matter of as it were potluck as to whether your driver or be
00:34:54 potluck as to whether your driver or be a wearer or a fighter Vanessa essentially yeah pretty warframe so right if you go to page 3 paragraph 3
00:35:05 right if you go to page 3 paragraph 3 jumping ahead in your statement you explain what happens on the journey but you could hear far our main scheme radio and then you go on to say in the next
00:35:18 and then you go on to say in the next sentence or two further on extra information would be sent to the appliances mobile data terminal MDT I would not have had cited this as I was the drug I was driving the vehicle and
00:35:29 the drug I was driving the vehicle and it would normally be left to another crew member to read out first of all do you remember who read the information on
00:35:40 you remember who read the information on the MDT on the way to Granville tower that would be Chris secret the officer in charge at time sit next to me and he just helped me he would be so I can give
00:35:52 just helped me he would be so I can give an internal picture of the camp on this on this journey you were sitting where hearts clarify I was driving golf 272 which is upon driving when he was sitting pursuing
00:36:03 driving when he was sitting pursuing onto steel since my on your left left on the near side on the front seat nice idea and the MDT terminal is is where it's central but facing it him because here we the one who read that on the way to a shout
00:36:15 one who read that on the way to a shout and I see and could the other crewmembers leaned forward and see what was on the screen it wouldn't be easy but they they could do it on that machine yeah okay well there are no machines on other machines on widget you can't well our new machines now have
00:36:28 can't well our new machines now have tablets in the back but at that time Oh knees have loads in the front right and you didn't get to see it because you were driving I think he aspirated said yes and you say our MDT would also
00:36:42 yes and you say our MDT would also contain a pre-prepared firefighting plan for grenfell tower you say would it would also contain do you remember whether it did yeah that'd be on our it
00:36:54 whether it did yeah that'd be on our it has a database of information about different buildings on the ground that can be called upon right and from your recollection I mean you say you didn't
00:37:05 recollection I mean you say you didn't see the contents of the mobile data terminal on the way to the fire did you ever get a chance to look at it later than arrival but during the fire or I know right so when you say would also
00:37:17 know right so when you say would also contain a pre-prepared firefighting plan for Granville tower is that that's not based on what you saw on the night it's that's based on what I know from just generally generally yeah because what
00:37:28 generally generally yeah because what you would expect like that it's on a that's what I see okay and would you expect a mobile data terminal to contain information about specific construction risks yeah that'll be scented yeah that
00:37:41 risks yeah that'll be scented yeah that we may be risks about things in the building for example hazardous materials anything that would be a concern to us from a safety point of view would be on that database that you look at and what
00:37:55 that database that you look at and what about at the building itself presented a hazard because of the way it was constructed or because of the materials that were contained within its construction is that something you would expect to be in the mobile data terminal
00:38:06 expect to be in the mobile data terminal information yeah do you know where what information the contents of the mobile
00:38:18 information the contents of the mobile data terminal is normally based on it's a it's a built up knowledge from previous visits to the tower they'll be updated into the operational risk database which is a central
00:38:29 risk database which is a central database with all this is support together for London Fire Brigades but any crew can access and and from your knowledge of the night itself did anybody say to you that the mobile data
00:38:40 anybody say to you that the mobile data terminal was showing that the building itself contained materials or had a construction that presented a hazard
00:38:57 and just taking one or two other topics from your knowledge of what you learned about what the information was on the mobile data terminal on that night did anybody tell you that it contained
00:39:09 anybody tell you that it contained information about the lifts I know it's always that no one and smoke Vince
00:39:20 always that no one and smoke Vince everybody tell you about no no okay um in your witness statement at page three third paragraph you say we arrived for
00:39:37 third paragraph you say we arrived for about 1 a.m. or slightly after 1:00 a.m. I cited my plants underneath the concrete Metzen end at the end of Grenfell road behind pump there the g27
00:39:48 Grenfell road behind pump there the g27 one when you say you've cited it do you mean just to be clear you parked there I parked here okay when you arrived at Grenfell tower did you receive any
00:39:59 Grenfell tower did you receive any further information on the way to the tower when you arrived when we arrived no okay you say well on the way let's just look at that on the way to go and fill tower in addition to
00:40:10 way to go and fill tower in addition to the mobile data terminal information did you receive any further information I'll see my statements it says I overheard the radio saying there to be multiple calls to the incident yes one's gonna
00:40:21 calls to the incident yes one's gonna come come to that but let's let's go to that yeah what did that mean to you even this multiple calls that means more than one person has phoned 999 to separate report the fire or any instant really so
00:40:33 report the fire or any instant really so that's that we'll say to you you're definitely looking at a fire here it's not it's likely not gonna be a false alarm
00:40:40 alarm or anything like that right
00:40:46 and multiple calls is that in your experience significant does this signify anything more serious than it suggests
00:40:59 anything more serious than it suggests that there was a fire presenting itself for multiple people to phone up yet does that give you any indication about the seriousness of the fire fact that there are multiple calls I would say that you
00:41:12 are multiple calls I would say that you assuming that you're going to a serious fire if there are multiple calls
00:41:22 and when you arrived at groennfell tower after having parked up did you receive any further information regarding the nature or location of the fire no not
00:41:34 nature or location of the fire no not not to my knowledge no do you receive any further information about the seriousness of the fire at that point the first indication I got that was I heard overheard the radio I think Michael Dowd and said we've got a job
00:41:46 Michael Dowd and said we've got a job here so yeah right now let's just explore you say over the radio where when you heard that where was he standing I don't know where he was standing
00:41:55 standing that wasn't my personal fire ground radio they heard that right that was my next questions that was on your personal radio as you can which is clipped into your yes there's also my tuning your IP pit your EP it's like the PPE
00:42:06 pit your EP it's like the PPE yes PPE yeah and that was tuned to channel well channel wander at the fire Channel and where would you have been sitting or standing when you heard that message I believe alderman outside my
00:42:18 message I believe alderman outside my appliance getting water to work right do you remember where Mike Downton was I don't remember he was when he said that okay and you then go on in your
00:42:33 okay and you then go on in your statement to describe the charging of the drive riser in the next paragraph and at the bottom of page 3 just pick it
00:42:44 and at the bottom of page 3 just pick it up you say that after after that you the very bottom I assisted my colleagues with deploying a 45 millimeter and then over the page hose to be used as a
00:42:57 over the page hose to be used as a covering jet
00:43:04 to the east side of the tower in an attempt to prevent the fire spreading from the fourth floor to the floors above and on us gone to read to the end of the paragraph I could see the I could see flames coming out of a window on the
00:43:16 see flames coming out of a window on the fourth floor at this time the flames were concentrated to that one flat the covering jet was aimed above these flames with the intention of stopping the fire reaching the floor above a bit
00:43:28 the fire reaching the floor above a bit all that to you because I have a number of questions about that and first of all how long after you had secured the water supply did the covering jet start up do you remember that have been very very
00:43:40 you remember that have been very very soon after more or less as soon as I would have charged the dry riser the next thing we'll be looking at do we need a covering jet right yeah and did anybody give you orders to apply a
00:43:51 anybody give you orders to apply a covering jet I didn't hear an order but I started to do it myself and other firefighters were already joining in so maybe in an order there yeah weren't you
00:44:02 maybe in an order there yeah weren't you okay why did you start to do yourself it's just a what what you do at a job if you see that's a bit of fire come out the window I know we need a covering jet as early as possible so I'll just naturally start doing that okay would it
00:44:16 naturally start doing that okay would it be normal to act without a specific instruction in other words working on the basis of your own judgment and experience rather than from a specific instruction from the incident commander it needs to be yeah if needs be what
00:44:28 it needs to be yeah if needs be what would the needs be but for example as I said there I could see flames go out the window I knew straight away we need to covering jet if I was to go and ask someone if that was the right thing to
00:44:39 someone if that was the right thing to do that could delay me what I'm doing so we just get to work and you see so other people do to see if I can get your answer you say you other firefighters
00:44:51 answer you say you other firefighters already joining in who have aged you remember I believe it would be firefighter bills from my fire station North Kensington I'm not hundred percent sure who the
00:45:02 I'm not hundred percent sure who the other one or two were but they would have been from Hammersmith or Kensington fire station right and who that stage when you joined in was in control of
00:45:13 when you joined in was in control of reject I can't remember who actually took over the Corrine jet to work it I know a later time ended up being firefighters Dez Murphy and Charley Cornelius but I'm not sure if they were
00:45:25 Cornelius but I'm not sure if they were the first people on it and at the point when the covering jet started to be applied and what was the fire doing do
00:45:36 applied and what was the fire doing do you remember all I could see that it was it was coming out of the window of the fourth floor could you see anything happening to the exterior of the
00:45:48 happening to the exterior of the building no could you see anything coming off the building no when the covering jet started how long was it applied for I I'm not sure did it start
00:46:04 applied for I I'm not sure did it start and then stop or once it started it carried on again I'm not sure I didn't stand around watched it being used okay do you remember any discussion about putting or jetting water at flat 16 in
00:46:19 putting or jetting water at flat 16 in order to prevent external fire spread or travel afar into the cladding do you remember a discussion of no do you remember any being involved in any discussion about whether the water
00:46:30 discussion about whether the water should be aimed below or above flat 16 no do you remember any discussion about whether it was safe to put a jet into flat 16 I don't remember any discussion
00:46:41 flat 16 I don't remember any discussion but I know operationally that that wouldn't be safe at the time yep
00:46:51 okay now mr. chairman I'm doing quite well but I want to show the witness a video very short video just to see if it it can help further recollection yes
00:47:02 it can help further recollection yes we've only been going for 45 minutes but I'm doing well in terms of time I need to give a trigger warning in relation to that it's maybe a little a pretty moment well I'm going to ask you you appear to
00:47:14 well I'm going to ask you you appear to be quite comfortable in giving evidence is that the case yeah I'll find it I mean you don't feel the need freely break non-fans continue yeah well normally on a morning when we
00:47:25 yeah well normally on a morning when we start at 10 o'clock we would have one longer break about halfway through which let's say 20 past 11:00 all they're about so you you think you couldn't keep
00:47:36 about so you you think you couldn't keep going to it I can keep going yeah well this assist you we do that yes I'm very happy unless you have other reasons for wanting a short break no I have no other reason by any reason
00:47:47 no I have no other reason by any reason for the short break was to enable people to leave the room that consecutive and while I give them to give the trigger warning we do need to give a I will do that clear trigger more and then we will just give people chunks very good all right well what I go to show and I'm
00:48:00 right well what I go to show and I'm assuming the strable that you're able to look at this yeah difficulty personally I mean if there's any problem about that please tell me but what I'm going to show you is a short clip from the fire
00:48:12 show you is a short clip from the fire spread video that forms part of Professor bisby's sequence of fire on the outside of Grenville tower and some people looking at it may find it
00:48:23 people looking at it may find it distressing and if they do then I would ask that they've take steps not to see it and not to hear the audio that accompanies it and to leave the room now
00:48:34 accompanies it and to leave the room now if they if they feel they need to or to turn away from the livestream if they feel that the video or audio would be distressing so perhaps I could just allow 30 seconds to elapse and also
00:48:47 allow 30 seconds to elapse and also mister trial disturb documents director if you could keep that up please very good its Bisbee flame spread video at 1501 1539 well we give people the
00:49:01 at 1501 1539 well we give people the chance to leave if they wish to 36 is probably best this trade will you understand what we go to see then see film of the fire developing up the outside of the building okay
00:49:12 outside of the building okay and you don't have any concerns about watching that or hearing voices on the audio channel no mr. Dawkins director if you get back to the very start of this
00:49:24 you get back to the very start of this sequence rather than that precise timeslot mr. Abel what I'm going to do is first of all run the sequence and show it to you as a whole and then run
00:49:38 show it to you as a whole and then run it again and I'll ask one or two questions about it okay is that is that okay that's fine he has that clear alright so if we go from the start of the sequence poor be great
00:49:49 [Applause]
00:50:01 [Applause]
00:50:11 now boom in that sequence what we saw was exterior doing what it was doing and then we saw a jet slightly later in the sequence and if we start at 1536 we
00:50:25 sequence and if we start at 1536 we could see that the jet isn't applied for a little bit of time until a little bit of time is elapsed so let's just run it through again I want you to note please first of all what the building is doing
00:50:36 first of all what the building is doing and then the what the individual firefighters are doing in front of the building and this is on the east side and then at what time the covering jet starts to go starts to be applied so if
00:50:49 starts to go starts to be applied so if we give us play that again please this is 1536 you can see that the fires do
00:50:54 do [Applause] that's coming up a billion
00:51:00 just pause there can you identify to the best of your recollection mr. Abel who the individuals are in the foreground of that still taken from this video from
00:51:13 that still taken from this video from the tab art and the white helmet that would be watch majid out and the bottom left I'm not sure who the two firefighters are there I can't see their
00:51:25 firefighters are there I can't see their right
00:51:26 right do you remember whether or not one of them might be you that wasn't me no I didn't operate the coverings yet right okay and at this time where might where were you to the best of your
00:51:37 were you to the best of your recollection I would have been on the south side of the building next to the pump
00:51:41 pump Oh Golf two seven one I see okay if you just continue with the video then [Applause]
00:51:52 [Applause] just pausing there at that time I know it's very difficult to be precise in terms of time with your own recollection but did you know did you see that the fire on the exterior was behaving in
00:52:03 fire on the exterior was behaving in this way I didn't know it was as bad as that I think I must have been doing something else around the south side of the building but I saw that it was getting a little bit worse okay I don't recall seeing things falling off and
00:52:15 recall seeing things falling off and what we saw on the video there right and again I know it's difficult to be precise with timings but what do you remember you were doing on the south side of the tower at that time I might have been ringing my full PPE I think as
00:52:27 have been ringing my full PPE I think as a driver you tend to get up the truck and put your tunic on and start getting things to work straight away I see and then when you get a little bit rest by you would then go put your leggings and helmet on I might have been doing that which would have kept me occupied that
00:52:40 which would have kept me occupied that little bit of time okay just pause there and just take that last answer let's just examine it a bit how long does it normally take you as an experienced firefighter to get into a PPE well I'll
00:52:54 firefighter to get into a PPE well I'll ask God get it from the Machine it'd probably be the wall 30 seconds or maybe a minute okay right can you just describe for everybody what what you
00:53:06 describe for everybody what what you have to do to get into a PPE kit okay as a driver at a job I would find my peepee on the offside lockers of the truck open it I like to take my shoes off get my
00:53:17 it I like to take my shoes off get my boots off the truck take my tunic off because it there's a sort of shoulder straps that go on the leggings I'll put my feet since my boots pull my leggings up shoulder straps on to knit back on
00:53:30 up shoulder straps on to knit back on zipped up velcro and he'll wait on the head would you say that that is something that takes a little bit of practice not necessary practice but I suppose you get quicker at it over at the time okay going back to the video
00:53:43 the time okay going back to the video can we just run this through I want you to watch the what's what the building is doing and then the application of water
00:53:56 first time we've gotten out about 15:53 also and my questions really having shown you that his it looks as if the
00:54:09 shown you that his it looks as if the building was already on fire on the exterior and flaming bits were falling off it before that jet was first applied that's what it looks like is that right
00:54:20 that's what it looks like is that right to the best of your recollection what I said is my recollection but obviously it was that a long night and I may be wrong okay because you say in your statement
00:54:37 okay because you say in your statement I could see flames coming out of a window on the fourth floor and this is back to the first paragraph on page four at this time the flames were concentrated to that one flat the
00:54:48 concentrated to that one flat the covering jet was aimed above these flames of the intention of stopping the fire reaching the floor above and it looks from this as if in fact pieces of
00:54:59 looks from this as if in fact pieces of burning material were falling down before the covering jet was applied and there's just a piston ask that question one more time is that what you recall do
00:55:10 one more time is that what you recall do you recall something different I don't recall seeing the fall in every event that's just my memory okay and one more one more question you say in the last sentence of this paragraph that the
00:55:21 sentence of this paragraph that the covering jet was aimed above the flames with intention of stopping the fire reaching the floor above having seen the video so far is that what happened to
00:55:32 video so far is that what happened to the best of your recollection so far I couldn't see you going above the flames there no okay can we just move the video on just to the next sequence
00:55:43 just before we met well sorry we start right and the very start I'm sorry it did very very start just focus on the right hand picture if you go back to the very start mr. document erotic I just want to ask
00:55:55 mr. document erotic I just want to ask you about what you can see on the ground
00:56:01 and we can't see it there we'll start the stop the sequence and watch the project going on [Applause]
00:56:19 [Applause] now now the next sequence now there it
00:56:32 now now the next sequence now there it is the jet being applied above or below the window do that stuff below the window there right and if you just follow that just move the sequence on just a little bit so you can see more of
00:56:44 just a little bit so you can see more of the application suppose does it stay below the window every girl [ __ ] in there but since we're staying below even though there and does that talk to recollection in your mind as to when
00:56:56 recollection in your mind as to when your repose was actually put a above the flames I just remember living above flames
00:57:04 flames maybe that's cuz why I'll expect ok that's very good thank you very much I think that's all we need to show you
00:57:16 think that's all we need to show you from the from the video um we'll move on to a different topic which is entry into ground fill tower now on page four of your statement in the second paragraph
00:57:28 your statement in the second paragraph you say once the covering jet has been established I was instructed by watch manager O'Keeffe to wear breathing apparatus BA and then you say I was
00:57:41 apparatus BA and then you say I was partnered up with firefighter Archer who also wore breathing apparatus I was aware very early on that the fire lift was not working therefore we had to rely on the stairwell to go up and down the
00:57:52 on the stairwell to go up and down the various floors this stairwell served as the only fire escape for the building and I just want to concentrate with you on the on your on your sentence or part sentence that says I was aware very early on but the fire lift was not
00:58:04 early on but the fire lift was not working um you say very early on how long or after you arrive do you think you became aware that the fire lift was not working I heard a message on the
00:58:16 not working I heard a message on the radio probably three or so four minutes maybe less than that after turning up and that's crew manager secret saying I heard him say in the radio mic the fire
00:58:27 heard him say in the radio mic the fire that's not working right and
00:58:33 three or four minutes after turning up do you remember roughly where you were at that time again I'll be outside the south side of the building I imagine bowling hoses out ready for
00:58:45 I imagine bowling hoses out ready for the dry riser right and where was what's manager O'Keefe at that point I don't think he was even there at that point I
00:58:56 think he was even there at that point I think Kensington had arrived when I heard that message well I was going to ask you how did you receive instructions from watch manager at Keith who it
00:59:08 from watch manager at Keith who it wasn't only senior that stuff it was an issue with the chronology here I've gone back to something there and my statement obviously right to reference why I went up the stairs from RBI where
00:59:30 okay so we'll come back to that chronological point perhaps at the moment I'm just as I said I'm clear you
00:59:42 moment I'm just as I said I'm clear you wouldn't receive normally with your instructions from a watch manager who was not yet status three no ma'am okay I'm focusing on the far left you've got the message or you heard the message being relayed from Chris secret to my
00:59:55 being relayed from Chris secret to my dad yeah so it was on channel 1 and available to all was it yeah I see so it wasn't it wasn't a message given to you is just a general this is why I inserted I overheard it yeah okay so just so that
01:00:07 I overheard it yeah okay so just so that I'm clear when your fire ground radio is on as it were on receive and can you hear all communications on channel one yes if it's on channel one that you'll hear everything that's being said if
01:00:18 hear everything that's being said if it's on channel one yes it and it would the same apply if you were on another channel yeah okay and you refer to them to the words fire lift in in inverted
01:00:29 to the words fire lift in in inverted commas with a capital letter what do you mean by the expression fire lift that would be a firefighting lift but we can take control off to assist in our
01:00:41 take control off to assist in our firefighting efforts right did you what was your understanding about what kind of lift Grenfell tower had so far as firefighting was concerned on arrival
01:00:53 firefighting was concerned on arrival I wouldn't know there's a fire lift in there that we could take control off how would you know that just again it may be an assumption but it's in you expect this in a residential
01:01:05 it's in you expect this in a residential high-rise at this time as going to ask you you say it may be an assumption can you remember whether it was an assumption or whether you actually have any actual knowledge about what the actual lift could do I'll say that's an
01:01:17 actual lift could do I'll say that's an assumption okay an assumption based on your experience is it yeah from passivation right and in your experience is there a difference between a
01:01:28 is there a difference between a firefighting lift and a fire left or fireman's lift it's always it's always the same thing the slide if your name okay
01:01:38 [Music] and did when you heard Chris secret give this message did he describe it as a fire lift or
01:01:50 did he describe it as a fire lift or What did he say Mike the fire left isn't working right so that's what report do you remember those him using those words yeah okay
01:02:00 and what did you understand wasn't working that's only heard that so I would assume they couldn't control the lift Ryan cells okay and what do you
01:02:14 lift Ryan cells okay and what do you remember what thoughts you had about what consequences the file if not working might have for the firefighting strategy at groennfell tower that night well I would have thought much about
01:02:26 well I would have thought much about that time as I was doing other things but just that they don't have to use it in normal life mode or would have to go up the stairs to set up the bruschetta okay right did that create any concern
01:02:41 okay right did that create any concern in your mind for impact on the search and rescue of residents the fire was on the fourth floor so I knew even if it wasn't working Saul
01:02:54 so I knew even if it wasn't working Saul would still be able to set up a bridgehead without going too many stairs it wouldn't delay us too much in that situation okay I'm gonna continue with this line of questioning but I just want
01:03:05 this line of questioning but I just want to ask you to stay back a little bit just to see if you can clarify something with me about about what the pumps were supplying we talked about that we looked
01:03:16 supplying we talked about that we looked at the covering Jets earlier and do you remember whether one pump was supplying both the covering jet as well as the dry rising name or were there two pumps one
01:03:27 rising name or were there two pumps one supplying the dry rising main and the other supplying the covering jet they were both supplied from Gulf two seven one
01:03:32 one they were both supplied from Gulf two seven one would that be normal yeah in that situation yeah because that's where the water is being taken to from the hydrant so that's where our water supply
01:03:43 hydrant so that's where our water supply it's been more vented right why wouldn't you use Gulf 272 because she used 272 we'd have to go and find another hydrant to use straightaway
01:03:54 hydrant to use straightaway yes that that's basically it you take a lot of time and we could just hook straight to go through seven one in the third delivery and get a covering jets works right away okay say that I'm clear in terms of lines of Hayes's you've got
01:04:06 in terms of lines of Hayes's you've got a hose game from the hydrant to pump two seven one yeah and then two lines coming off or maybe three or is it off pump two seven one two to the dry rising main and
01:04:17 seven one two to the dry rising main and one to the covering jet yeah we have it from there hydrant will have two twin 70 millimeter hoses going from the hydrant to the inlet of our pump on black at fire engine yes that's all what sports -
01:04:29 fire engine yes that's all what sports - yeah and we all get we have three deliveries off the back of the pump as well sends him in reserved deliveries I see say two in hydrant to pump three out to to the dry riser onto the covering
01:04:41 to to the dry riser onto the covering jet yes and they all work at the same time
01:04:43 time yeah no gate forward you get it inside grenfell tower and you make your way with firefighter Archer to the bridge head on the second floor that's what I
01:04:54 head on the second floor that's what I think you tell us yeah and according to you our breathing apparatus telemetry data we have you there at the bridgehead at O one 21:07 and I'll just I'll just
01:05:07 at O one 21:07 and I'll just I'll just show you the data we've got just to clock the time say we you know what I'm talking about okay if you are shown please the telemetry data spreadsheet
01:05:18 please the telemetry data spreadsheet which is in bundle of documents tab one its LFP quadruple zero three one one five
01:05:33 we can see I don't have to be have to be enlarged we can see that the fourth pair down is in purple
01:05:45 down is in purple and you mr. Abel are there as the second of the archer Abel pair button call you've had it with your station North
01:05:57 you've had it with your station North Kensington next to you on the Left wayne archers Hammersmith on the left above you and then if you go to the green column tally out we have you tallying out o 120 160 and
01:06:13 we have you tallying out o 120 160 and Wayne Archer at 120 107 now when you tally out when you tallied out did you
01:06:26 tally out when you tallied out did you go under air at that point when you take the tally out you will be under air at that point yeah okay and then just looking across the page we could see you have initial pressure of two 8208 bar
01:06:38 have initial pressure of two 8208 bar and then you log onto the ECB of oh one twenty one twenty nine so just thirteen or so seconds later and what happens
01:06:50 or so seconds later and what happens when you log on to the ECB you remove your tally from your you have a little computer unit on your left stock of your be a set with what's called a tally connected to it you remove the tally
01:07:02 connected to it you remove the tally from what pull the bodyguard that's the thing that shows us how much air we've got left and what time to whistle is you give that to the entry control officer who will slip this electronics alley
01:07:14 who will slip this electronics alley into an entry control board and that will communicate with your be a set so people down stiff you go some force the people at the enter control board can see how much air you got left and how
01:07:26 see how much air you got left and how long you been in there how long they've got so you should come out it communicates with each other and did you have a radio inside your be a helmet no get set
01:07:37 get set no you didn't what about mr. Archer did he fire Archer had what we call Barry comes Barry comes you heard a bit about that already so one or two has the very is all right
01:07:48 one or two has the very is all right yeah so we have one per be eighteen one per be eighteen and you had you're still have your fire ground your main for fire ground radio yeah it's still on channel one mine was still on channel one yeah
01:08:00 one mine was still on channel one yeah right could you use it if you needed it if I even needed it I could put on Channel six and use it yeah right was there any reason why you would have to put it on Channel six sorry I explained a channel one will be the fire ground
01:08:11 a channel one will be the fire ground chalice we've always talked about Channel six is the VA channel so the people on that will be the be a cruise in the building and the entry control point they'll be on Channel six so you got less traffic
01:08:22 got less traffic I see and the barrier would be channel six - we did yeah now in your statement you say that and this is the third
01:08:34 you say that and this is the third paragraph down near the middle of the page on page four firefighter Archer and I made our way to the bridge head and you say here we met with firefighter door GU who had already been upstairs he
01:08:47 door GU who had already been upstairs he told us to follow him did well do you recall any discussion or conversation with firefighter dong GU about what he had found upstairs at that point from
01:09:00 had found upstairs at that point from what I remember we got denture control point and like I saved me upstairs he seems to be the authority and what was going on he knew what's going on he said follow follow me so that this this floor there's a fire
01:09:11 so that this this floor there's a fire in you know in a flash you need to pull out okay did he say where he was going I believe you would have said before is going to I actually miss remember this
01:09:23 going to I actually miss remember this in two different statements has been the fifth and sixth floor I know it's the fifth floor fifth yeah so just to be clear what did he tell you about where you were going I think he said there was a fire in his
01:09:35 I think he said there was a fire in his flat I'm needed to tackle on which floor I take a look on the fifth floor right did he tell you what you were to do well you just you just told us where to go and we we've know what to do then we
01:09:47 and we we've know what to do then we just make entry and try our best to put it out right did he give you a flat number he didn't give me a flat number but he pointed to the flat that it was not there when you
01:10:01 the flat that it was not there when you when you got there he pointed yeah and where did he point remember it was there as I went through into the lobby area it's on the right-hand side in the in the right-hand corner right okay I would
01:10:14 the right-hand corner right okay I would have freeze you there as it were and then you know imagination take you back down to the bridge head and ask you a number of questions about the conditions there and on the stairs first of all when you arrived at the bridge head went
01:10:26 when you arrived at the bridge head went under Aires we've just discussed again what were the conditions like at the bridgehead in terms of air clear but what were the conditions like in terms of people was it busy I believe there
01:10:37 of people was it busy I believe there were to be the I can't fully remember but people who would have been there over the entry control officer that'd be Alex D st. Alban watch manager O'Keefe and obviously crap off but I dog you and
01:10:49 and obviously crap off but I dog you and me and qualifier after I believe at that time right so in terms of who was in charge at the bridgehead you you remember that at that time and you went
01:11:00 remember that at that time and you went under air it was watch manager O'Keefe yeah not crew manager secret I don't believe so no okay and in at that time
01:11:12 believe so no okay and in at that time 121 will say when you went under ed do you remember seeing any residence or occupants coming down the stairs as I made my way upstairs I believe probably three people came down as I was going up
01:11:23 three people came down as I was going up how soon after leaving the bridgehead did you encounter three or so people coming down pretty soon it would have been around probably the third floor that I'll sort so yeah right and what
01:11:36 that I'll sort so yeah right and what kind of condition were these occupants leaving the building in I didn't really notice what condition they're in I just swore where they're coming down but I was quite focused on what I was trying
01:11:48 was quite focused on what I was trying to do did you notice anything about them not really no okay [Music]
01:12:00 and the condition in the stairs as you went up to the fifth floor what was that like to start with that's clear and as you got up towards the fifth floor it's still play if it remained clear did it
01:12:11 still play if it remained clear did it yeah and then when you then when you open the door from the stair into the fifth floor lobby what were the conditions like in the fifth floor lobby when you did that I remember it being
01:12:22 when you did that I remember it being clear in there right so we get to the point when firefighter door GU points at the flat you and you're supposed to be going to where's firefighter Archer at
01:12:33 going to where's firefighter Archer at this moment he would have been next to me come this time okay and where did firefighter dog viewpoint do you remember you're standing at the door you come out of the stairs into the
01:12:44 door you come out of the stairs into the fifth floor lobby where does he point he showed us around and pointed out the front door of the flat in the Ryan corner okay as you come out yeah and what about water was there
01:12:58 out yeah and what about water was there water available to you already on the fifth floor when you got there at that point I believe crew manager Stern and firefighter Hipple that they were there on that floor as well and they were
01:13:10 on that floor as well and they were getting the water they were getting home set up basically there right so my next question is who who was it who set the hose or set a hose into the dry raising I mean sorry crew Manchester and
01:13:22 I mean sorry crew Manchester and firefighter Hipple right and was there any hose plugged in on any lower floor
01:13:33 any hose plugged in on any lower floor which was then used as a backup hose on the fifth floor not to my knowledge okay so the water you had to fight the fire in the flat on the fifth floor was
01:13:44 fire in the flat on the fifth floor was soda the water on the fifth coming from the fifth floor dry rising main outlet yeah would that be a normal procedure normally you go from that the first team
01:13:57 normally you go from that the first team would go from the floor below and plug in I go to the next floor up and then start I'm tackling the fire yes obviously I wasn't aware over the hoses but at that point we would have already
01:14:09 but at that point we would have already plugged in on there third and fourth floor so that would mean that those two would have to plug in on the fifth floor exactly did you have any thoughts at the time about whether that was safe fire fighting outside I didn't cross my mind I was
01:14:22 outside I didn't cross my mind I was just happy to get the hose okay
01:14:33 and then you say in the third main paragraph on page four just picking it up you say I think this flat it says
01:14:47 up you say I think this flat it says five lines up from the end of the paragraph I think this flat was situated directly above the flat of the original fire prior to forcing entry into this flat I noticed the door to the neighboring flat was slightly ajar see
01:14:59 neighboring flat was slightly ajar see that the door then opened and I could see a family of four within the flat I would describe them as a young couple man a woman in their young in the in their 30s a young boy approximately two years old and an elderly gentleman
01:15:10 years old and an elderly gentleman they looked Middle Eastern did you did you see what the condition of the air
01:15:21 you see what the condition of the air was in their flat through the door which was ajar I don't remember seeing the condition of the air no but I believe it was clear you believe it was clear okay
01:15:32 was clear you believe it was clear okay do you remember which door it was in relation to the flat that you were going to fight the fire in it was to the left of that of the fire flat as you look at
01:15:44 of that of the fire flat as you look at it as you look at the two doors is on the left-hand side right and you say you advised well listen for the next paragraph and jumping ahead a bit fast they asked me what they should do as
01:15:56 they asked me what they should do as they were next to a flat where there was a suspected fire I told them to leave they exited their flat initially with a pram for the young child I instructed them to leave it behind and to make their way to the stairwell I believe
01:16:08 their way to the stairwell I believe firefighters dog you and Hipple assisted them down the staircase first of all when you say you advise the family to leave why did you do that lots of us
01:16:19 leave why did you do that lots of us that they were already they look very willing to leave they wanted to get out and they were more or less coming out the door so I thought I'll just I'd let them make sure they got out right was
01:16:31 them make sure they got out right was that let me put it this way how did that how was that consistent with the standing staple advice that you understood that was in place in the building well I
01:16:43 that was in place in the building well I suppose I got them out cause they're willing to come straight out and though I didn't want to stop them okay did anybody instruct you to give them that advice no that's just on the on fire
01:16:56 advice no that's just on the on fire today yeah okay I should have asked you this question earlier but at that point in them in in the night did you have any understanding about what the standing advice to residents walls at groennfell tower it would've been the staples
01:17:09 tower it would've been the staples advice but again did you know that all did were you assuming that from your experience from from the top building residential high-rise yes now you then go on to say that you and
01:17:20 now you then go on to say that you and firefighter dog ooh or rather firefighter dog you and hip Hill assisted them down the staircase how far I've done did you take them do you
01:17:32 I've done did you take them do you remember
01:17:32 remember I didn't the system down the staircase it would be firefighter dog over and I believe he went out the door with them no see and I didn't see where he went after then you don't know how far down
01:17:44 after then you don't know how far down he went
01:17:45 he went I don't know how far down you wait no I did he come back again remember I don't believe he did after that no right and so what happened next in terms of the
01:17:58 so what happened next in terms of the fire in in the flat you had gone to the fifth floor to fight okay well fire fire and I went to the door yeah fire fire arch now what we call a Halligan bar which is a sort of a prying
01:18:11 Halligan bar which is a sort of a prying bar we use for opening doors he started to make sort break entry into the fire flap okay Halligan bar you called it a Halligan bar yeah okay is that different
01:18:24 Halligan bar yeah okay is that different from all the same as an enforcer it's different from an enforcer how is it different from an enforcer but enforcer is essentially a battering ram that use brute force to smash it all down a Halligan bar it's a bit more
01:18:37 down a Halligan bar it's a bit more tough all you you put it in the side of the door and shine crowbarred open essentially it's like a Jimmy yeah yeah basically throw them all out right and
01:18:49 okay who had the Halligan bar with them was it you was it Archer father Archer who's using that okay and what happened next you've got
01:19:01 okay and what happened next you've got into the flat what what were the conditions like in the flat that you saw well at first he open the door and it closed the door closed - Baxter that's right away so go out said open the door again I ended up sort of booting the
01:19:14 again I ended up sort of booting the door open cuz I couldn't get the Halligan bark I couldn't open it again with the Halligan bar the visibility was zero there's thick black smoke coming straight out yeah the moment we drove
01:19:26 straight out yeah the moment we drove him yeah see then say at the top of page five you describe what you've just told us you say I just kicked the door in almost immediately a thick plume of
01:19:37 almost immediately a thick plume of smoke came out of the flat I could see thick black smoke this was the floor level and visibility was zero I was very surprised at this and started to feel concern just pause
01:19:48 and started to feel concern just pause there what was surprising to you about what you were seeing well in that situation I'm going to the floor above the initial fire floor or maybe expect to be a bit of smoke in there maybe the
01:19:59 to be a bit of smoke in there maybe the fire from the floor below has gone through the window of the floor above maybe set the cones on fire I would expect maybe a bit smoke but those of the sort of smoke that came out the
01:20:10 the sort of smoke that came out the thick black smoke it's a floor level would indicate this is a fully involved fire and a splat which is unusual right and then in the next sentence you say at this point I was only aware of fire on
01:20:23 this point I was only aware of fire on the fourth floor and fire within a tower block should not spread in this way however it was obvious to me that this was a fire compartment due to the smoke and poor visibility
01:20:35 I can you just explain first of all what do you mean when you say however it was obvious to me that this was a far compartment due to the smoke and poor visibility yet the the sheer amount of black smoke is what's normally
01:20:47 black smoke is what's normally consistent with a fire and a bad one a fire in a Badman but when you say this was a fire compartment did you do you mean this was a compartmented fire or do
01:20:58 mean this was a compartmented fire or do you mean this was a fire in a compartment my firm used Brigade lingo there it's a fire flap there's a fire in that flask right I wouldn't have it necessary expect this to be a real significant
01:21:09 expect this to be a real significant fire in that flap I'm following okay and then just going back to what you said a bit earlier in the sentence at this point I was only aware of a fire on the fourth floor and a fire than a table
01:21:21 fourth floor and a fire than a table should not spread in this way but you see a fire in this flat now given that you had been instructed to fight a fire in a flat on the fifth floor and you
01:21:32 in a flat on the fifth floor and you knew there was a fire in a flat immediately below it on the fourth floor did you have any thoughts at the time about whether complementation had failed
01:21:43 about whether complementation had failed within the tower itself I thought they liked saying I thought maybe they've been smoke that got in through the windows that compartment maybe there's a slight bit fire if the windows broken or
01:21:54 slight bit fire if the windows broken or something I wasn't expecting that it would be like say a fully blown firing there but when you've got in and you saw the thick smoke you realized you did have a father yeah so kampala station that you would
01:22:07 yeah so kampala station that you would have fail all that point yeah yeah so you realize that the compartment ation between floors four and five had failed yeah right and what did that mean to you was that significant not significant to
01:22:19 was that significant not significant to me because my job then is to try and nip this fire in the bud and put the fire out in this compartment before it spreads to the sixth law hmm yes did you
01:22:30 spreads to the sixth law hmm yes did you have any thoughts yourself about whether it would be appropriate to evacuate people
01:22:39 people No did you contact or try to contact Mike Downton to tell him what you'd seen in the flat on the fifth floor no do you
01:22:51 in the flat on the fifth floor no do you know why that is I was in VA mode essentially so I believe would have been firefighter arch will be communicating with the bridge head saying that sort of information okay you see would be do you know whether he did I can't recall
01:23:03 know whether he did I can't recall whether he did or not right would you if you were communicating expect to communicate with the bridge head or with the incident commander direct at the bridge head okay with the via no it's
01:23:15 bridge head okay with the via no it's okay having seen compartment ation fail between the fourth and the fifth floors would you not would it be normal not to communicate with Mike down direct button nevertheless still to go via the bridge
01:23:28 nevertheless still to go via the bridge head you still go through the bridge head yeah to be a communications channel okay
01:23:33 okay in your experience once you're in a tower in breathing apparatus but it'd be normal only to communicate with the bridge head and not directly with the incident commander on the ground yeah okay mr. chair I'm gonna continue in
01:23:49 okay mr. chair I'm gonna continue in this vein for a little bit of time I'm at the time which is somewhere stranded between 20 parts and 25 past I don't know whether the witness would like a break I'm happy to continue will have
01:24:00 break I'm happy to continue will have passed
01:24:00 passed I didn't furthermore I've seen that we were now going to go into the flat with the worse is that right here zone well that might be a sensible point to have a brazier yeah yeah that in this table we're gonna have a break now about 15
01:24:12 we're gonna have a break now about 15 minutes can I ask you please over the break not to talk about your evidence or anything else relating to the inquiry of course yep okay thank you very much you go with the usher golf juice
01:24:29 and will resume will stop now resume at 22 12 please
01:24:44 you
01:43:29 right the struggle yes yeah Britta to keep going mm thank you Thank You Liz for able yes just a couple of questions standing back for a moment from what you
01:43:40 standing back for a moment from what you were doing in flat 26 first of all if you were fire fighting internally you Tom Abel were fire fighting internally
01:43:51 Tom Abel were fire fighting internally who was the pump operator on G 272 two seven one would be the one to operate for that 271 yo mr. firefighter bills I
01:44:03 for that 271 yo mr. firefighter bills I think bills okay and what was 272 being used for I don't know what that was being used for at that time okay if you were carrying out internal firefighting
01:44:16 were carrying out internal firefighting on two levels at that time so level four and level 5 within Grenfell tower would that have any impact on the water supplies available for exterior
01:44:27 supplies available for exterior firefighting you have a slight you have slight impacts but for internal firefighting you're rarely walking in there with the hose in the on position
01:44:39 there with the hose in the on position squirting what the whole time you'll be using third in short bursts so the pressure will usually be a around the same for firefighting outside in that circumstance right
01:44:53 and what about the higher up the building you you go in order to fight fires internally exactly the same naturally at the heart we go you'll be slightly less on the 23rd floor for
01:45:05 slightly less on the 23rd floor for example than the than the fifth floor just by gravity yeah okay do you remember at any point speaking to the
01:45:16 remember at any point speaking to the tenant of flat 26 or anybody who'd come down the stairs to tell you that there was a fire in the flat there no don't do you remember whether any of your your colleagues spoke to anyone from flat 26
01:45:27 colleagues spoke to anyone from flat 26 since the fire I believe either Christopher dalgo or just no burn how to talk to them and that's how they knew there was some form of fire in that flat thank you but that but not on that your
01:45:40 thank you but that but not on that your knowledge on the on the night itself you say I think no on the night I didn't know no okay now can we get back to your statement please page five in the second paragraph you describe what happens
01:45:53 paragraph you describe what happens after you entered the flat you were operating the branch and firefighter Archer was behind you managing the hose and using the thermal-imaging camera and
01:46:04 and using the thermal-imaging camera and you then go on at the end of that paragraph to say it was hard to identify any source of fire and all the firefighting techniques I deploy were not having any effect on the fire and do
01:46:16 not having any effect on the fire and do you remember whether you communicated what you were finding about firefighting techniques to anybody at the bridgehead not with the bridgehead no what about -
01:46:27 not with the bridgehead no what about - Mike Dadon on the fire ground no is there a reason why you didn't radio down to the bridgehead and say all the firefighting techniques I'm using aren't working I didn't have comms I didn't
01:46:41 working I didn't have comms I didn't have a direct line of communication with the bridgehead my be a partner had the Barry comm set you had a radio that I had a radio but that was on channel 1 for the fire ground and I couldn't hear
01:46:53 for the fire ground and I couldn't hear anything on the radio at that that time okay do you know whether your firefighting buddy as it were Archard shared your view that all the firefighting techniques that you were deploying weren't working I'm not sure
01:47:05 deploying weren't working I'm not sure do you know whether he made a communication with the bridgehead to that effect I don't know when you say all the
01:47:16 don't know when you say all the firefighting techniques I deployed we're not having any effect on the fire did that surprise you in any way well it lacks a I couldn't find where the fire
01:47:27 lacks a I couldn't find where the fire was and to paint a picture it was like having Rhys closed you couldn't see your hand in front your face also the thermal-imaging camera you have to put
01:47:38 thermal-imaging camera you have to put it right next to your visor and press it against your visors to be able to see any sort of light from it it was that thick right also on your visor that would be all sorts of carbon buildup when you try and wipe that off with your gloves the carbons on there too so you
01:47:50 gloves the carbons on there too so you just smear it around it was very difficult to identify where if I was on the television camera okay and what was the heat like inside the compartment at first it was warm at first right in
01:48:07 at first it was warm at first right in your goal and the next paragraph to to explain what in the next paragraph you say at some point I was aware that the hose appeared to have snagged on something firefighter Archer left to try
01:48:18 something firefighter Archer left to try to find the affected hose part to detangle he gave me the t I see I used it to try and identify seats of fire just just focusing on that evidence for
01:48:29 just just focusing on that evidence for the moment where did he leave you you remember he left me we go into the compartment we've gone past I believe about what felt like was a bathroom a
01:48:42 about what felt like was a bathroom a little toilet room a cupboard and we I think we're at the end of a that's off hallway
01:48:49 hallway I remember feeling a chair like a one-piece sort of a sweet chair and throw out the way so that that would hints that might be until a living room
01:49:00 hints that might be until a living room area right that's all that's all I can tell you and did did firefighter Archer and leave you alone in the in the flat yes did you have water yes you did
01:49:15 yes did you have water yes you did say the tangle wasn't causing a blockage to the water supply was it no okay but
01:49:23 you were alone in the far compartment with a snagged hose and nobody yeah and no Barry radio know is that in a is that
01:49:34 no Barry radio know is that in a is that safe not it's not safe at all no were you concerned at first I wasn't concerned because I thought you'd be coming straight back having got some more hose but he didn't return and I was
01:49:47 more hose but he didn't return and I was there for some time on my own he didn't return at all no do you know where that is
01:49:53 is I believe he that this nag was much further back than he expected out in the lobby area I believe he got so far we've come by the conditions in the lobby we've got a bit lost and
01:50:04 the lobby we've got a bit lost and couldn't find his way back into me if they believed is that belief based on something you saw at the time will man write to us or nothing at the sign okay
01:50:16 write to us or nothing at the sign okay how long did you stay in flat 26 on your own with a snag hose and nobody in there radio communication a number of minutes I could important exacts Matt I'm on it
01:50:28 I could important exacts Matt I'm on it right you then go on in okay so before I go on you you you you you told us about communications in the middle of this paragraph you say firefighter archers
01:50:39 paragraph you say firefighter archers would not returned that's it and I had no radio communications I didn't have a Barry radio radio set built into the breathing apparatus and my efforts were not having
01:50:50 apparatus and my efforts were not having a desired effect on the fire I made the decision to leave the compartments my own safety did you try to use your fire ground radio that was on your PPE
01:51:02 radio that was on your PPE I'm communicate with the bridgehead at that moment well I believe I did but in the conditions you can't see you've gotta change channel 1 to channel 6 and
01:51:13 gotta change channel 1 to channel 6 and if you can't see radio you can't do that really unless you're very very lucky so right was there a reason why you didn't use channel 1 to communicate what you were the cadet
01:51:25 to communicate what you were the cadet them know what you were finding and the situation you'd found yourself in know that time no is there a reason why I don't know why I didn't do that but I didn't do that okay just a few lines
01:51:40 didn't do that okay just a few lines above that and I've jumped ahead little bit just to follow up on communications but but just a bit above that in the paragraph you say I also have to pee
01:51:52 paragraph you say I also have to pee really pirata periodically regulate the temperature of the room but in a way that I did not steam myself after a period of doing as like a feel the temperature had increased and it now felt very hot could you just give us an
01:52:05 felt very hot could you just give us an impression of how hot it was well I'm talking about regulating the temperature the room this means to put the safety pulse above your head where you spray a
01:52:17 pulse above your head where you spray a pulse of water into the smoky it's at the gas above you and it'll cool the room down I felt that needs to do that I think probably two or three times was it working
01:52:27 working it worked for a period but then obviously the temperature would steadily rise back up again if you put too much water in if you keep doing that loads you'll eventually you'll burn yourself
01:52:38 you'll eventually you'll burn yourself with the steam so it has to play a bit of a game of controlling the temperature okay did you at that stage discover where the fire actually was no did you
01:52:51 where the fire actually was no did you think it was in the compartment or did you know I have a view I could Here I am at one point I held my breath so your MBA set can make quite a bit noise when you breathe in and out
01:53:02 you breathe in and out I'd showered with for my be a pile number of times really loud and no response so I held my breath to see if I could hear him or hear his distress unit
01:53:16 could hear him or hear his distress unit going off when to do that I could I could actually hear the fire crackling like a bonfire quite loudly so in front of me sort of to my right in front of me that's all very abut I'd never saw anything or with my own two eyes right because
01:53:31 or with my own two eyes right because did that surprise you well like I say in the conditions that I just couldn't see the tick so rude yes sir it's not great situation with those kinds of conditions
01:53:42 situation with those kinds of conditions conditions you were used to in your experience or were they suddenly completely new to you I've eaten that level of disability probably once before but I wasn't on my own without comms
01:54:03 you then I think described in the st. paragraph just after the reference to the Barry radio I made them I I made the decision to leave the compartment for my
01:54:14 decision to leave the compartment for my own safety I made my way back to the exit by following the hose once I got to the lobby I could see the visibility had deteriorated it was almost as bad as in the flat did you did you manage do you
01:54:32 the flat did you did you manage do you think to have any effect on the fire in the flat or I don't leave it did no so you come out into the lobby and you say they're deteriorated was there any sign
01:54:43 they're deteriorated was there any sign of firefighter Archer there when I go into the lobby again as as bad as visibility wise was as bad as in the flap right at this point I was basically dragging myself along the floor trying
01:54:56 dragging myself along the floor trying to a call the hose back out with me that I taken in and that's not easy I follow the wall I could hear some commotion some shouting sort of muffled shouting from what I imagine would be
01:55:08 shouting from what I imagine would be that the the stairway and I think I made out someone shouting I can't find my gay partner so that obviously he's gonna be referring to me right so I essentially
01:55:21 referring to me right so I essentially followed the voices as a guide to make it back out to the door to the stairway okay and what was your air level like at
01:55:34 okay and what was your air level like at that stage do you remember I don't remember I've seen it since on on your records but I didn't know at the time had your whistle gone off no given the conditions in the lobby that you
01:55:46 conditions in the lobby that you encountered when you exited the flat did you alert anybody else on that floor to the presence of fire in the flat Oh in other words a flat on the fifth floor
01:55:58 in other words a flat on the fifth floor could you repeat a question that's on yeah given the conditions that you encountered in the lobby on coming out into the lobby from that flat on the fifth floor did you alert anybody in any of the other flats on the fifth floor to
01:56:09 of the other flats on the fifth floor to the night oh there was a fire he didn't it is there a reason why you didn't do that that's wrong I was it in a bad way with the locks I don't think I mentioned
01:56:21 with the locks I don't think I mentioned in my statement my legs felt like jelly are us
01:56:23 are us the adrenaline worn off and I was pretty much shot trying to carry everything out with me and I'll strike them away out because I thought might not get out there okay you go into the stairwell and
01:56:43 you say that in the on the next page but before we get there the bottom of page five you say that firefighter Archer was
01:56:55 five you say that firefighter Archer was with a be a crew from Hammersmith they were getting ready to go in I try my best to explain that I had just done how
01:57:06 best to explain that I had just done how many of them were there in that group as I got to the door how many firefighters that helped me through the door I got to my feet I believe it was the watch
01:57:18 my feet I believe it was the watch manager from Hammersmith and there was a crew of three bi wearers I didn't know who these Bao areas were at the time but I now know two of them to be crew
01:57:30 I now know two of them to be crew manager Matt Sefton and firefighter Penn Broderick yes okay and what did you tell them about what
01:57:42 and what did you tell them about what you had just done what you'd found in the flat I tried my best to brief them as to where I thought the fire was again I don't know who I was talking to you in the be a team but I put my head as
01:57:56 the be a team but I put my head as supposed T's as I could no I think I said something along the lines of go through the door far the right-hand wall keep going to the door that's open the fire is in that flat but I probably
01:58:07 fire is in that flat but I probably wasn't being too clear at the time because I was free out breath so that's what I try to get across okay and then over the page you say in the first
01:58:19 over the page you say in the first paragraph page six first paragraph firefighter arch and I made our way down the stairs back to the bridgehead entry stroke control we've got I got my tally back could you describe for me the
01:58:30 back could you describe for me the conditions in the stairway on your descent I don't remember the conditions are believed they were reasonably clear but aren't I can't be certain about that right what about people coming down oh I didn't see anybody else come down with
01:58:41 didn't see anybody else come down with half of me and fire Archer did you hand your hose to the hammersmith be a crew I believe I also dropped it on outside the
01:58:52 believe I also dropped it on outside the door as it came out and they were picks it up that's right the widget or the stairs sorry the doors are the lobby going into the stairway on the fifth floor
01:58:58 floor so these got it right okay you dropped it there what on the inside Lobby side order we know on the outside in the staircase silent as ice and what happened to it - tell me to pick it up I didn't see anyone pick it up I've saw
01:59:10 didn't see anyone pick it up I've saw stumble towards the Baker and tried to tell them what I've seen right stumbling you say sorry stumbling yeah yeah right okay and then you went down
01:59:22 yeah right okay and then you went down how easy did you find it to descend from the fifth floor to the bridgehead well I'll try got my legs back I think I had my hand on the wall sort of try to guide me down yeah it's a taking deep breaths
01:59:35 me down yeah it's a taking deep breaths on there sort of recover right and did the conditions improve or did they stay the same on the stairway as he went down I remember okay now we can
01:59:48 went down I remember okay now we can take your time of return to the bridgehead and as about 1:40 from the VA telemetry data would they need to look at it do you remember who was in charge
01:59:59 at it do you remember who was in charge of the bridgehead there said O'Keefe was in charge earlier was he still in charge I believe he was but I believe my statements well I said I'd breached the entry control point but thinking that over the last few days I actually don't
02:00:10 over the last few days I actually don't remember briefing the entry control point with what I'd seen well I was going to ask you because you say in the next sentence in the first paragraph on page 6 you did breach the entry control
02:00:22 page 6 you did breach the entry control officer and apprised him of the situation O'Keefe was in charge was the officer in charge of the bridgehead at that time the entry control officer was who that would've been Alex D st. Alban oh can you see it you say you debriefed
02:00:33 oh can you see it you say you debriefed him
02:00:33 him do you remember what he said what you said I don't remember debriefing him up I think okay so do you know how how did that get into your statement you I think at the time but watching all my
02:00:44 at the time but watching all my colleagues speak in the last week I've been thinking about this a lot every day it's brought back some more memories from the night and when I thought about it I thought you know I don't actually remember saying anything to the inter control point I'm not sure why for that
02:00:55 control point I'm not sure why for that so that's my honest answer
02:01:02 No okay
02:01:08 do you remember whether you told from anybody whether at the bridgehead or outside on on the incident ground externally what you had encountered on the fifth floor
02:01:19 the fifth floor no right you don't remember or you remember you didn't I didn't personally go around telling anyone what why does he hunt if Logan is there is there a reason why well you didn't I think I was just keen
02:01:31 well you didn't I think I was just keen to get out and get my gear off so and what about fire fighter Archer do you know from your own knowledge whether he communicated what he had found on the
02:01:43 he communicated what he had found on the fifth floor to anybody at the bridgehead or the incident ground he might talk to the edge control point but not under present' sure and once you were out of
02:01:57 present' sure and once you were out of the tower what was your next task I went to a garage area underneath the concrete mezzanine for Rempel walk I took my breathing up rate to set off
02:02:09 I took my breathing up rate to set off and I did what we call a fire grounds a test which means you take your cylinder off pour fresh cinder on and that was with a view to maybe going back in the building again if I needed to
02:02:21 building again if I needed to right is it quite common to do more than one we're at an incident no no not really
02:02:28 really it happens very rarely and usually you have a real good braking between any of that with a case did anybody instruct you to go and do a test on a test no I understood it it's
02:02:40 test on a test no I understood it it's just a good practice
02:02:45 were other firefighters to your knowledge also doing fire grande tests with a view to gain back up into the tower just after I started mine yes I was joined by crew manager batter B who
02:02:56 was joined by crew manager batter B who had been in the 8 crew 1 and he sat opposite me doing his BA set at the same time did you have a conversation with him a brief conversation I think I must
02:03:08 him a brief conversation I think I must say no that was bad wasn't it but nothing will now really just he look like he done a bit of a bad where himself but we didn't read conversation-- right did you discuss
02:03:20 conversation-- right did you discuss together what you were going to do next no on page 6 of your statement if you look at paragraphs 2 & 3 in there you say start by saying a prop
02:03:32 say start by saying a prop I would approximate that the time is now about 1:45 a.m. now that tallies you should know with your be a data and then you go on to say you went to the garage
02:03:43 you go on to say you went to the garage area and came out and you were asked by watch manager Collins and other firefighters to set up a and supply water to to ground monitors the purpose
02:03:54 water to to ground monitors the purpose of these ground monitors was to prevent the fire from the east side encroaching onto the south side and you then explained where they're set up and you explained in the next paragraph what the ground monitor is a knew then in the
02:04:11 ground monitor is a knew then in the third paragraph say in the middle this is the first point at which I realized how much the fire had spread I was aware of heavy smoke on the fifth floor but
02:04:22 of heavy smoke on the fifth floor but this was the first time I'd really seen the flames and fire to the exterior of the building I remember thinking this is going out like rocket fuel flames had consumed more than half of one side of
02:04:33 consumed more than half of one side of the tower they were ferocious flames it was completely unprecedented a fire in a tower block should not spread like this fires are normally fought from the inside and not the outside I read up
02:04:44 inside and not the outside I read up that all out to you so if you've got it on the screen that's want to ask you one or two questions first of all you say this was the first point at which you had really seen the flames
02:04:54 flames on the exterior where were you standing do you remember when you first saw the flames I walked up the stairway on to
02:05:06 flames I walked up the stairway on to grant our walk which should be the sort of first floor mezzanine leveled as I got there I had a real good view of the east side of the tower and that's where I saw how how bad it got right and you
02:05:20 I saw how how bad it got right and you you say I remember thinking this is going out like rocket fuel have you ever seen anything like that before no you say that the flames have consumed
02:05:34 no you say that the flames have consumed more than one half of one side of the tower do you when you say one half do you mean what do you mean I think when when I did my police interview there I couldn't remember exactly how far the
02:05:46 couldn't remember exactly how far the building they went so I just said more than one half meaning from bottom to top right but the video suggests it was actually for this off at this point yes and I was going to ask you whether you
02:05:57 and I was going to ask you whether you meant bottom to top with it whether you went laterally side whatever Lobby bottoms song but do you remember seeing whether it was spreading well even in my
02:06:09 whether it was spreading well even in my assumption it was spreading quite rapidly the way it was going yeah Oh in which directions you're ever seeing in which direction it was spreading I only saw the fire on the east side of Tower at that point so just upwards at that point okay and the map ground monitors
02:06:25 point okay and the map ground monitors were operational do you remember having any view about whether they were being effective at fighting the fire on the exterior no I pretty much rap stairs with the gear and help set them off and
02:06:38 with the gear and help set them off and then I got sore there roped into doing other other jobs so I didn't hang around and wait internal I saw I couldn't comments and how effective they were there being no in the last sentence in
02:06:50 there being no in the last sentence in the third paragraph on page 6 you say fires are normally fought from the inside and not the outside but first of all do you mean they're in relation to high-rise high-rise fires yeah yeah and
02:07:03 high-rise high-rise fires yeah yeah and normally fought from the inside and not the outside that being so was it usual unusual to have a covering jet on the outside its what's usual because you're not fighting a fire with
02:07:15 because you're not fighting a fire with the covering jet it defensive tactic so you know it's purely to stop fire spread can you're not it could be actually dangerous to fight that fire from the outside if a BA crew are in that room
02:07:26 outside if a BA crew are in that room because like I said earlier about the steam you could in the worst case scenario so steam your colleagues to death if they're in there so yeah and with this when you say outside outside
02:07:37 with this when you say outside outside you're applying that to a covering jet and a ground monitor that's all they the same thing effectively they were they're not the same thing technically but though we use the same reason to stop
02:07:48 though we use the same reason to stop fire it's like a defensive tactic to stop the fire spreading okay around well in terms of a ground monitor just describe for us what it is physically it's a piece of equipment in a Miss terms it's like an unmanned unstaffed
02:08:01 terms it's like an unmanned unstaffed water torus that you're way down and it's it can throw a large amount of water much more than a normal firefighting branch at a target you
02:08:12 firefighting branch at a target you usually use these firm may be a warehouse fire if you didn't want to commit people into there for safety reasons you could fire to come a distance with a very powerful grande monitor and assuming maybe a slightly
02:08:24 monitor and assuming maybe a slightly strange especially with a seeming normal water pressure for central London what what sort of height would you be able to get a plume of water up from a ground monitor be quite higher I'll be
02:08:38 monitor be quite higher I'll be speculating if you know the official high you could get with it really bit okay let me ask you more specifically on the night do you remember how high you managed to get the ground monitor to
02:08:49 managed to get the ground monitor to apply water up at groennfell tower how many floors up do you remember No
02:08:58 it's worth adding there as well but they were on the south side of building to stop it from spreading potentially arounds to the south side of the building rather than up the east side of building while I'm on water pressure let
02:09:10 building while I'm on water pressure let me just jump ahead a little bit I'm going to come back just to other parts of your statement in a moment but let me just walk walk ahead with you to page 8 in your statement paragraph 3 you
02:09:23 in your statement paragraph 3 you describe there how a large piece of cladding fell onto one of the true too dry riser delivery phases and caused it to rupture do you remember roughly when that was during the night maybe about two hours
02:09:40 during the night maybe about two hours after we turned up but that's a gas a real massive I guess they've so much to happen that night and then you go on to say four lines down luckily the water supply to the building was still sufficient
02:09:51 sufficient despite this issue was that your view at the time that's my assumption I mean the the water going to the building is under
02:10:02 the water going to the building is under various apply pressure around around 10 bar so although they were spraying quite a bit water around I didn't feel that we were losing water and they will be a massively detrimental to what's going on
02:10:13 massively detrimental to what's going on inside the building okay so that was your impression was it that's my impression oh yeah did you did anybody tell you on the night that they were
02:10:25 tell you on the night that they were having difficulties with water pressure no right have you heard since the far about difficulties with water pressure from anybody else did you witness the
02:10:42 from anybody else did you witness the ruptured hose being replaced I was one of the people who replaced it later on it took quite a long time to be able to do this because the amount debris that's falling down yes I see it and it also to
02:10:55 falling down yes I see it and it also to replace it you'd have to cut the supply of water for a short amount of time completely which obviously would be very dangerous those inside so you've got to look at risk of a benefit and later on
02:11:07 look at risk of a benefit and later on when the things calm down little unders Debra falling well you did a really quick changeover and that would have been when it was getting light I don't know the exact time but it was getting light at that point okay cuz I was going to ask you in that sentence you say the
02:11:20 to ask you in that sentence you say the last it's the middle of the paragraph before the half paragraph break we eventually placed this replace this hos around two to three hours after the rupture when the amount of falling debris had lessened do we there includes
02:11:36 debris had lessened do we there includes you personally dessert yeah who else helped you do you remember firefighter David Badillo yeah watch manager Dowden yeah firefighter bills yeah
02:11:49 yeah firefighter bills yeah I believe crew manager secret was there as well right so it was a North Kent job but yeah by chance yeah we all happen to be at the same place then yeah okay and
02:12:00 the amount of falling debris I mean at the moment when the hose were ruptured you could you just give us an impression of what you could see hear and feel well
02:12:13 of what you could see hear and feel well I was under the grant I'll walk the mezzanine level offered quite a good natural protection from what was falling down but we still had a few close shaves but we were mostly protected but there
02:12:25 but we were mostly protected but there were big pieces of materials falling down they're all red hot you know some the size of a table you know similar size that a meter squared maybe there's
02:12:37 size that a meter squared maybe there's stuff smashing all over the place and that was building up essentially a bonfire at the bottom of the tower that we haven't we had to control throughout the night with hose reels to protect the
02:12:50 the night with hose reels to protect the exit route for any crews and residents yes
02:13:01 now can I ask you to get back in your statement to page 7 the well actually
02:13:19 statement to page 7 the well actually probably better start at the foot of page 6
02:13:22 page 6 after you've described setting up the ground monitor and you say I was aware there was a discussion about hauling up a 9 meter ladder to the mezzanine level to assist with rescue operations I could
02:13:36 to assist with rescue operations I could see there were many people leaning out of windows or various floors of the tower trying to get our attention they were doing this by shining lights and waving towels and then you go on to describe watch manager Collins crew
02:13:47 describe watch manager Collins crew manager ash and other firefighters hauled the 9 meter letter to the mezzanine floor where was that ladder first of all where was that ladder from you remember I believe that was from
02:13:58 you remember I believe that was from North Hansen's pump which we golf - seven - I see and [Music]
02:14:09 [Music] and you then say over the page we pitched the ladder in an attempt to reach casualties on the southwest side
02:14:20 reach casualties on the southwest side of the tower at a fifth-floor window so this is running so I'm clear rook from the mezzanine level that's the is that
02:14:32 the mezzanine level that's the is that the walkway over the garages yeah so it's going across like a like a bridge is it onto the onto the south side of the tower the the mezzanine level yes
02:14:43 the tower the the mezzanine level yes yeah I believe that I believe the old entrance to Graham Bell Tower pre refurbishment so you have the Graham valve walk I'm essentially like a little bridge going to decide the building which now leads nowhere I see but used to be the entrance right
02:14:56 I see but used to be the entrance right so what kind of angle was the ladder at you know I meet about it the night Lisa legend it was I think we knew it might not be high enough to get to way once it
02:15:09 not be high enough to get to way once it go so we had to pitch a very steep pitch to get as much height as we could let's see what else climbing it it wasn't feeling safe at all you know I
02:15:20 wasn't feeling safe at all you know I think my feet were more or less hitting the wall at one point right this is climbing up and when I got about near the top I just said to watch manager Collins this this isn't going to work we're not going to get people down this
02:15:31 we're not going to get people down this ladder right and then you go on on page seven five lines down to say the ladder was simply not long enough we then decided to replace the nine meter ladder with a 13 and for the wave say 135
02:15:42 with a 13 and for the wave say 135 ladder this ladder is 13 and a half meters in height and it's quite heavy and under watch manager Collins instruction approximately seven firefighters and two to three members of the public hold this ladder to the mezzanine level
02:15:54 hold this ladder to the mezzanine level this was achieved by some of us pushing the ladder up from the ground floor well I was pulled from the mezzanine level
02:16:02 would it be quite unusual to involve members of the public in a rescue operation like that yeah
02:16:12 and how long did that process take fetchingly thirteen and a half meter ladder and then getting it up to the mezzanine level remember a couple minutes I'll be surprised that's never
02:16:24 minutes I'll be surprised that's never been done before to be honest with 135 ladder it's if you see a fire engine drive down the road with a big ladder down the back of it that's that's gladwyn that was talking about hauling a lot right I didn't realize they were
02:16:35 lot right I didn't realize they were detachable presumably yeah that one is it's a detachable ladder right yeah okay and which pump did it come from do you remember the golf two seven one have stamps two seven ones okay then you go
02:16:46 stamps two seven ones okay then you go on into the second paragraph to say once we've managed to get this ladder up to the mezzanine level we pitched the ladder to the fifth floor apartment where the two males were signaling for our attention and then you go on to
02:16:58 our attention and then you go on to describe in graphic terms the use of that ladder to perform that rescue I'll read it into the record I did this by coaching him onto the ladder sorry posture I performed a rescue of one of the male's I did this by coaching
02:17:10 one of the male's I did this by coaching him onto the ladder understandably this took a bit of time as it was a daunting experience for the male but slowly he managed to climb on the ladder and descended to the mezzanine level I would say this male
02:17:22 mezzanine level I would say this male was of middle-eastern appearance I only spoke to him to give him instruction on how to descend the ladder once I have completed my rescue I handed this male to the police who has courted him away another firefighter to perform the
02:17:34 another firefighter to perform the rescue of the second male the lattice ladder was left and sits you there were no other casualties presenting from that window um first of all do you remember which direction the flat faced from
02:17:47 which direction the flat faced from where you were performing this rescue South South and how near to the southwest corner was the flat did it abut the southwest corner or was it be
02:18:00 abut the southwest corner or was it be any little of the south face it was reasonably closest or the southwest corner maybe two flats across you say two flats across from from the from the west face do you mean two flats or two
02:18:11 west face do you mean two flats or two two window frames why do you window frames mate okay now you say that you coached him onto the ladder where were you during
02:18:23 onto the ladder where were you during this time I was on the ladder with him so I went all the way up to the window level and I told him okay if you want to get up here and used to get onto this ladder and I said to y'all I'm just
02:18:34 ladder and I said to y'all I'm just telling him what exactly what to do and put his mind at ease because I'm not carrying him down the ladder I'm he's able to go down himself so I'm just tryin give him the confidence to get off the ladder and climb down right and what
02:18:46 the ladder and climb down right and what and just try to picture it in my own mind where was the head of the ladder situated in relation to the window he was coming out from it was against his windowsill I think a little bit I was
02:18:57 windowsill I think a little bit I was always with his window sill okay and he say we you were below him on the ladder were you yeah okay so when you descended
02:19:08 were you yeah okay so when you descended will you below him and he was above you or there's a bit of crossover so my head would be about where his feet are and I'm just making sure it's putting his feet on the rounds properly and just trying to keep him basically okay and
02:19:22 trying to keep him basically okay and that process was that something that you'd been trained to do or was that on-the-spot improvisation that's what you're trained to do Yeah right did you see for yourself what the
02:19:34 did you see for yourself what the conditions were like inside his flat I didn't pay attention to the conditions just a person did you learn from him what the conditions were like in his flat no okay
02:19:46 do you know who the other firefighter was who performed the rescue of the second male it was a firefight from Ealing but I can't remember his name I thought it the ladder what he bought
02:19:57 I thought it the ladder what he bought the second casualty down okay how do you remember he was reeling I recognized him from where I've been on standby before what where you go do a juicy another station but I can't marry his name okay
02:20:10 station but I can't marry his name okay and as far as you remember what method did that Ealing firefighter used to perform the rescue of the second male the same methods me right and did
02:20:23 male the same methods me right and did it go to plan in the same way it went more the same way yes it was a bit slow but that's understandable given the you know the scariness of the situation right if you turn to page seven at page
02:20:37 right if you turn to page seven at page seven in the next paragraph you say having performed this rescue I noticed a male of a very high floor lowering bed sheets which he had tied together in an attempt to descend to the ground floor
02:20:48 attempt to descend to the ground floor this was on the south side of the tower around the 16th to 17th floor I could see that the south side of the tower was on fire but I cannot remember how close the flames were to this male and do you
02:21:01 the flames were to this male and do you remember where the fire was could you see I can't remember exactly I think it might have just been creeping around to the south side I couldn't be certain about that okay and do you
02:21:16 certain about that okay and do you remember how much of the south side was a light at that point no
02:21:24 what did the fact that he was doing what he was doing tell you about the conditions on the south side of the tower at those levels so it would be the question yes did did the fact that you
02:21:36 question yes did did the fact that you saw a man on a very high floor layering bedsheets on the south side of the tower tell you anything about the conditions inside the building on the south side at
02:21:48 inside the building on the south side at that point well I could assume he was in some distress in there but to be honest I think at the time I thought maybe is overreacting here so this is gonna be
02:21:59 overreacting here so this is gonna be more dangerous way out the building than going downstairs so I was brought across my mind did you report what you had seen up on that high floor with that man to anybody I was with watch manager Collins
02:22:12 anybody I was with watch manager Collins who's a master at one officers in charge at the time so he witness that as well but I didn't report it to else okay do you know whether watch manager Collins did I'm not sure okay suppose we both
02:22:26 did I'm not sure okay suppose we both didn't want that this going out by sight and we're outing up interest to not try and rappel down the building right you don't remember whether you then made
02:22:37 don't remember whether you then made arrangements for him to be rescued from his floor I didn't make any arrangements meant to be rescued no right okay and we know in fact that it turned out okay because as you go on to say in the next
02:22:49 because as you go on to say in the next part of that paragraph that you subsequently met this man after the fire yeah I think it's a little RB
02:23:00 okay just a few other questions about communications G 272 was designated as the incident command pump we have that
02:23:11 the incident command pump we have that as a matter of record were you aware of that
02:23:13 that no not the night no okay have you got experience of an incident command pump being left in a situation where vice
02:23:24 being left in a situation where vice radio would be on the loudspeaker that in the in that hamper I think you call it at the back that it happened yet but it is a command pump would usually be a
02:23:36 it is a command pump would usually be a little bit further away and if I were often it's more of those obverse to be sitting in inside the cab where it's a bit more quiet I can hear the internal radio more clearly q yeah do you remember on the night what
02:23:49 q yeah do you remember on the night what the position was in relation to the incident command pumps radio and who was manning it first of all I don't know who was mine that radio from the night I believe from what I've heard since it
02:24:01 believe from what I've heard since it was five I Bills who I turned up with it start the incident but do you have any recollection of your own independently as to how how it was that message is
02:24:12 as to how how it was that message is being sent to the ICP would be heard by anybody on the incident ground no okay
02:24:23 anybody on the incident ground no okay how did radio communication between the incident pump and brigade control occur how did that work do you remember I
02:24:35 how did that work do you remember I don't remember from the night no okay if the driver of the incident command pumps Danny bills in this case was not there
02:24:49 Danny bills in this case was not there he was busy how would brigade control communicate with the fire ground in the very beginning stages they if he was not by the radio or any of us were by the radio
02:25:02 the radio or any of us were by the radio then they wouldn't be able to get that message through right
02:25:07 okay a couple more questions are you familiar with the condition of metabolic heat stress yeah could you just explain
02:25:20 heat stress yeah could you just explain what it is we're cover this is a training school that's where it under sounds dressing in a fire your motor skills can be affected and it can cause
02:25:32 skills can be affected and it can cause you sort of stress and make you do things that you wouldn't normally do or yeah right a very more technical explanation of that to be honest a okay looking back on it do you think you
02:25:45 looking back on it do you think you might have been affected by metabolic heat stress at any point on the night I'm not sure I don't know did you ever consult anybody about whether you know I have no further
02:26:02 whether you know I have no further questions for you firefighter April thank you very much for coming to give your evidence even helped me was with one aspect that you touched on earlier remember we just talked about breathing apparatus and the
02:26:13 talked about breathing apparatus and the aid a test you doing a fire going yeah do you happen to know how many ba cylinders a standard pump would carry you'd have a five specialist on a pump
02:26:26 you'd have a five specialist on a pump and do any of the standard pumps have a facility for recharging yeah they when the BA sets on the back
02:26:37 yeah they when the BA sets on the back of the truck that they're always uncharged there's a wire that goes inside and when they're not being used they on charge so the pump has a compressor or sorry not a compressor no we don't we Allison ders delivered to us
02:26:49 we don't we Allison ders delivered to us on station and I'll take those four cylinders onto the truck what I thought you referring to there was electronic challenge to the battery for that no I was thinking of whether whether any of
02:27:00 was thinking of whether whether any of the pumps but we don't really know so far so you've got the five spares and that's it yeah you want to follow that up at all no mr. chairman Thank You mr. firefighter Abel
02:27:12 chairman Thank You mr. firefighter Abel thank you very much for coming to give your evidence to the inquiry I should say as I've said to all other firefighters who have come before you that we're very grateful to you if your assistance today and thank you very much
02:27:23 assistance today and thank you very much I'd like to add my thanks to those of mr. Millard I don't suppose it could have been a very agreeable experience that you've given me a lot of evidence a lot of very helpful evidence and we're
02:27:36 lot of very helpful evidence and we're very grateful to you for coming along to do so thank you very much thank you right now to follow the a particular
02:27:51 monster now mr. chairman the next witness is firefighter Justin a burn of from G 272 North Kensington it may be
02:28:03 from G 272 North Kensington it may be better for him I think if we were to break now and to come back let's say quarter to 2:00 to resume or to start
02:28:14 quarter to 2:00 to resume or to start his evidence that stays rather than breaking rather than starting it now and then breaking after notice I can see that my draft program suggests that you
02:28:25 that my draft program suggests that you may be able to complete his evidence this afternoon is that still possible it is it is it is going it's difficult I think but it may have to be possible
02:28:36 think but it may have to be possible well I was not seeking to confine you but you've told me what I need to know which is we can't have a particularly long lunch I think that's really what I was trying to communicate so well if we
02:28:48 was trying to communicate so well if we would have stopped nerve and will give us a slightly long lunch and see quarter to 2:00 that's not gonna tie your hands too much it will tie my hands by an
02:28:59 too much it will tie my hands by an extra 15 minutes it would do if we finished if we started at half past one the world truth I mean you know roughly
02:29:12 the world truth I mean you know roughly how many questions you've got yes I would if you're telling me you think we ought to start and get it up past one I'd like to know I think with this witness we may need more breaks than we
02:29:23 witness we may need more breaks than we have in the last witness and now I would ask you to start at 1:30 that's why I'm sorry you're not going to get longer than usual lunch hour my doctor is here at half-past one please very good thank you very think you very much
02:29:43 you