Outbreak of fire (3 July 2018 Pt 1 of 2)

Full transcript

00:00:04 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to continue in a moment I think that mr. Auburn yes mr. chairman oh yeah yes thank you very much if we can please have mr. Auburn review

00:00:16 if we can please have mr. Auburn review the witness table

00:00:38 good morning mr. Monty sir morning Miss Mary ban mi morning we're going to continue your evidence this morning just to recap we where we were last night

00:00:49 to recap we where we were last night when we when we stopped we were somewhere up in the building I think between the 10th and 11th floors between 11:00 and 12:00

00:01:00 11:00 and 12:00 I was going to ask you a little I think a little higher than that and we had stopped I think at the point when I had asked you about the timing of the foot of page at the foot of page 13 and fit

00:01:13 of page at the foot of page 13 and fit and 15 when you say for the page 50 when you said that you you believe a rat that was around this time somewhere between the 7th and 10th floors that you heard mister darden saying make pumps 8 so I'm

00:01:25 mister darden saying make pumps 8 so I'm just trying to refocus where we've got to if you gave them to your statement at page 16 at the top you say at this point

00:01:36 page 16 at the top you say at this point a few people were coming down the stairs but it was still very quiet and I was about to get on I think to ask you what you saw of them first of all you say a

00:01:47 you saw of them first of all you say a few people can you give us a bit more information about how many you saw at that stage when you'd stopped no I couldn't it's very hard to remember the moment people that were calming down if

00:01:58 moment people that were calming down if any others do you remember anything about the condition they were in how easy I was there weren't no noticeably

00:02:09 easy I was there weren't no noticeably you know at that time I didn't notice don't know I become wood smoke on you think or any in any sort of distress no and you say you say in the second line they didn't say anything to me and

00:02:21 they didn't say anything to me and weren't hysterical or running they just kept walking down past me and I think you just said they weren't showing signs of smoke they were I won't

00:02:32 of smoke they were I won't I didn't thank you saying you did it if they were hysterical if they were coughing I would have probably paid more attention to him therefore I didn't really

00:02:42 really pay attention to it and then in the next paragraph on the same page you say when I was standing still having a think on

00:02:53 I was standing still having a think on the half landing I heard a scream or shout at least and then about five lines

00:03:05 shout at least and then about five lines down from that you say about after after about ten seconds I thought the shout sounded too clear to have come from behind to closed doors so I went up to

00:03:16 behind to closed doors so I went up to the landing and opened the door to the floor I believe this was on the eleventh or twelfth floor so let me just see if I can understand physically where you start so you are having a thing called a

00:03:29 start so you are having a thing called a half landing and is that the half landing between the tenth and the eleventh floor which I suggested at the start that's been or is between the 11th and the 12th no that was between floors 11 and 12

00:03:38 11 and 12 so the half planning was between floors 11 and 12 yes right and did you did you did you clock that at the time did you know I am between floors 11 - I you know you were I know I know it was because

00:03:51 you were I know I know it was because after reading the information that the London Fire Brigade has produced last week the lady that come out of floor 12 was the lady that I open the door for

00:04:04 was the lady that I open the door for okay so the 11th or 12th floor is something you found out later yes I didn't I wouldn't I wouldn't have told you before the exact Florida she come

00:04:16 you before the exact Florida she come out with no no but at the time you did your statement how did you remember that but you believed that this was on the 11th or 12th floor I was only referencing from floor nine and Counting

00:04:29 referencing from floor nine and Counting up okay and do you remember whether you could see clearly visible on the landings on in the stairwell the numbers of the floors as you were going up now

00:04:40 of the floors as you were going up now as I said earlier I don't have any recollection of seeing any numbers on the landings okay and then you say as I just showed you at

00:04:51 and then you say as I just showed you at the top of that paragraph get back to it I heard a scream or a shout at least and then you say in the middle I believe this was on the eleventh or twelfth floor you I think went to investigate

00:05:06 floor you I think went to investigate didn't you yes when I heard the scream I realized it come from above me so when I say 11 for 12 obviously I wasn't too sure when I read when the police

00:05:18 sure when I read when the police statement was getting done I wasn't aware of the exact floor but what I was aware of is that when I was standing on a half landing the shuttle screen came from above me yes and then just below

00:05:32 from above me yes and then just below halfway down that paragraph after your reference to 11th or 12th floor you say after a few seconds a woman shot out from that floor into the stairwell on her hands and knees which gave me a bit of a fright

00:05:48 and you go on to say she came out quickly as if she knew her life was in danger she didn't say anything to me but appeared extremely distressed did do you

00:05:59 appeared extremely distressed did do you remember whether she showed any signs of smoke inhalation yes what signs like mucus from our nose spit really yes he was she taken in a

00:06:11 spit really yes he was she taken in a lot of smoke right this was she was coming out from the 12th floor lobby into the stairwell yes okay at that point what did you

00:06:22 yes okay at that point what did you think having seen her come out in that condition from that Lobby what did you think was happening in the bin the building at that level level 12 as I

00:06:33 building at that level level 12 as I said just moments before that I've just realized that the fire has been jumping from window to window it's what I presumed at the time and I thought that if 12th floor flat above the fire floor

00:06:48 if 12th floor flat above the fire floor the flat above the the fire flat was on fire so it's now gone out how many floors eighth floor I don't remember maybe you could yeah refresh how many floors he gone up from the original or

00:06:59 floors he gone up from the original or well from the fourth of the twelve well I thought law 9 it hadn't affected but 10 11 and 12 it had you know and seven

00:07:09 seven but obviously affected four but from five up to eight it's affected and what

00:07:20 five up to eight it's affected and what happened to the lady after that do you remember my statement that she left in quite a hurry for my statement up I did

00:07:33 quite a hurry for my statement up I did say to her on the way down there's anyone in there and she just carried on presumed to exit the building right did you you say I asked you

00:07:44 you you say I asked you I also whether there was anyone there did you I actually asked her is there anybody in your flat I remember asking everybody who was coming I didn't ask if it was a her flat I said is there anyone else there right did you ask her for her

00:07:56 else there right did you ask her for her flat number no no idea then you say in the next paragraph I quickly looked into the lobby of the floor she had come from and I could see that there was thick black smoke from floor to ceiling can you remember what

00:08:11 floor to ceiling can you remember what the visibility through that smoke was like absolutely zero absolutely zero and at that stage did you did you radio down and tell Mike doubt and what you'd seen no is there a reason why you didn't do

00:08:25 no is there a reason why you didn't do that there was no reason why I didn't do it but I didn't do it he didn't do it

00:08:33 did you think to call down and ask for urgent ba wearers to come up as fast as possible to the 12th floor not right there no did

00:08:48 to the 12th floor not right there no did you do it later I from memory I think the two guys come down very soon after that after that lady come out of that

00:08:59 that after that lady come out of that door yeah we'll come to that in a moment

00:09:09 did you have least any thoughts at that at that time about whether the advice to stay put in in your flat remain safe advice to give to residents at that time

00:09:27 advice to give to residents at that time I just thought that the compartment above the original fire floor or the original flat that would have been a light I didn't think of any other flex

00:09:38 light I didn't think of any other flex being affected I wouldn't destroy vertical flats yeah did you have any thoughts at that time was just following that up about whether you thought the fire was going to now continue to spread

00:09:50 fire was going to now continue to spread beyond up above floors 11 12 and up put into 1314 and so on at rebuilding given what you'd seen already that that was

00:10:01 what you'd seen already that that was the feeling that I was getting yeah when I just thought right between floors 11 and 12 okay and given that that was the feeling that you were getting at that time didn't did you think that it was

00:10:13 time didn't did you think that it was important to for someone at least to have a strategy as to what to do with the occupants of all the flats above the level you were on level 12 at that time

00:10:28 level you were on level 12 at that time I was thinking that the fire is jumping from window to window so let me see if I

00:10:43 from window to window so let me see if I can get it certainly different way you're on floor 12 you think now and you say oh you know you're on floor 12 you've seen a lady come out smoke affected you've seen you know the fires

00:10:56 affected you've seen you know the fires on level four you've seen smoke on and be told about fire on levels 5 & 6 7 & 8 9 is clear there was a fireman 8 yeah just smoke thing but I've presumed it

00:11:08 just smoke thing but I've presumed it was yeah yes smoke level 9 clear but 10 and 11 affected now 12 yes and the lady coming out suffering the effects for smoke inhalation in the light of all of

00:11:20 smoke inhalation in the light of all of that did you did you have any thoughts along the lines of well now we need a strategy in order to rescue and remove all the occupants of the flats above

00:11:34 all the occupants of the flats above level 12 at least in the sixes so yeah yeah I guess so in that corner of the building yes you did her what was your

00:11:46 building yes you did her what was your thought so I didn't really have a 4th I I would I would say that that decision would be for someone about my rank to

00:12:01 would be for someone about my rank to clear the rest of the building and how would somebody above your rank make that decision without knowing the information about what was happening inside the

00:12:12 about what was happening inside the building I well I wasn't the only firefighter inside the building who have witnessed two conditions I understand I may have been affirmed higher than everybody else at that time yeah but to

00:12:27 everybody else at that time yeah but to me at the time it would have been obvious that if the fire is on each compartment on the outside don't have effects of smoke on the inside yeah you

00:12:38 effects of smoke on the inside yeah you were the I think you've just confirmed you were the highest I saw a fire then yeah I think in the building did you did you think yourself at the time that that gave you a particular advantage in terms

00:12:50 gave you a particular advantage in terms of what you'd seen and how much scene says to make it important to tell those making the decisions about what they should do at the time that wasn't my fault

00:13:01 my fault no can you can you help us understand why that why that wasn't your thoughts I was saying I was focused on the small area that I was in at the time after

00:13:15 area that I was in at the time after seeing a lady coming out I was more focused on that and then the two guys that come down I always focus on that then yes and then going on to that

00:13:37 you say on page 17 in the second paragraph at this time two guys came

00:13:48 paragraph at this time two guys came down the stairs to where I was standing

00:13:53 and you want to say they were both of Middle Eastern appearance one of the guys said that his dad who was bed bound was on the 16th floor I can't remember the exact floor of the stairwell I was on when I saw the two guys but I think

00:14:05 on when I saw the two guys but I think it was on the tenth strike 11th floor although I may have walked a bit further down the stairs with them just pausing just pausing they're doing the best you can with your recollection as you as you

00:14:18 can with your recollection as you as you remember it now yes did you you were on the 12th floor you told us a minute ago and you're pretty confident about that where do you think you first saw the two men coming down

00:14:29 you first saw the two men coming down the stairs to to where you landing I don't know if I'm quite sure I didn't go up any further than floor 12 right a male silk seen one saw 12 or I may have

00:14:42 male silk seen one saw 12 or I may have walked down okay slightly maybe one floor but it wouldn't have been very far away down when I met them okay that takes me to my next question which is at the point that you saw them

00:14:55 which is at the point that you saw them coming they were coming down to you yes at the point that you saw them were you planning to continue your journey up the building to gather information no right

00:15:09 building to gather information no right so if you hadn't seen them what would you have done I don't know right what would have what made you I mean ask it this way had you

00:15:23 made you I mean ask it this way had you made a decision once you'd come to the 12th floor and seen the lady come out with the effects of smoke that you are no longer going to continue your journey up the building

00:15:35 I know I didn't go up further than 12 I probably went down a floor to listen that was probably something that was a

00:15:46 that was probably something that was a sticking in my mind because obviously after hearing someone shouting I didn't really want to leave where I was in case there was someone else that may have

00:15:57 there was someone else that may have been in distress or something like that I see okay so say I summarized it this way I hope fairly that you've done you've gone up as far as you had gone and that had heard the shouting and had

00:16:10 and that had heard the shouting and had decided to go no further at that point but to stay to see if anybody needed assistance yeah that's about right yeah but as I say I may have been walking

00:16:21 but as I say I may have been walking down the floor or they might may have met me there and what thoughts did you have for how further information could be gained about what was happening inside the building above floor 12 at

00:16:37 inside the building above floor 12 at that second place yeah having made the decision not to go any further up into the building beyond floor 12 did you have any thoughts about how further information would be gathered about what

00:16:48 information would be gathered about what was happening above floor 12 in my mind at the time I I thought it was quite cleared it

00:17:11 let's go again yeah excuse me yeah at that time I felt that it had been maybe silly to say but obvious from the

00:17:22 silly to say but obvious from the outside what the case conditions could have been like from the inside because of the de fire that I thought would have been visible from floor 12 right did you

00:17:34 been visible from floor 12 right did you have any information passed to you about what was happening on the outside No so you were imagining me what was happening on the outside by what you could see on the inside I when I saw

00:17:45 could see on the inside I when I saw smoke yeah I've realized it would smoke wasn't coming up through the lobbies obviously because it floor 9 I'd then thought that the fire I was jumping from window to window to floor

00:17:58 jumping from window to window to floor 12 right and at the stage when you decided to do gay no further up the building but to go to go down did you

00:18:11 building but to go to go down did you did you radio down to Mike Davin or anybody else to tell them what you were planning

00:18:14 planning no is there a reason why I couldn't say would it be right but we would be fair

00:18:25 would it be right but we would be fair to summarize your evidence in terms of communication in this way that you had essentially gone up into the tower up as far as the 12th floor see what you'd seen had thought you'd communicated what

00:18:38 seen had thought you'd communicated what you've seen at that points down to Mike down but had got no confirmation and had no description of what was happening on the outside back from him or anybody else either yeah I suppose that kids yes

00:18:53 else either yeah I suppose that kids yes you only kind of bubble it appears I was at the time for me at that time is to see if I can be of any use to anyone up there right and would it be usual in

00:19:09 there right and would it be usual in your experience to have penetrated so far into a high-rise building within those conditions without being able to communicate confidently with the fire

00:19:20 communicate confidently with the fire ground and without receiving any messages back from the outside what whole thing wasn't usual was it so I shouldn't have I yeah it's

00:19:31 was it so I shouldn't have I yeah it's not it's not normal to would you say the whole thing wasn't doesn't usual that's that's true but looking back on it but at the time ya know at the time it wasn't I

00:19:41 wasn't I I probably shouldn't have gone up there but at the time in terms of what was usual and B can you just we looked at this yesterday tell us at what point

00:19:54 this yesterday tell us at what point during your ascent up the tower did you start to think this is not usual which floor really it obviously it became increasingly I became increasingly aware

00:20:06 increasingly I became increasingly aware yeah as I was in ascend in a building as I said yesterday it was I think the money the moment when the penny drop was a between floors 11 and 12 yeah so you

00:20:19 a between floors 11 and 12 yeah so you did say that yesterday afternoon so at that point now at that point you meet these two men coming down the stairs and

00:20:31 these two men coming down the stairs and then you say four lines down from the start of the second paragraph on page 17 i radioed down using my my handheld radio and requested a be a crew to go to the 16th floor to rescue a male there

00:20:43 the 16th floor to rescue a male there who was bed-bound i'm sure i transmitted this message several times over the radio I don't remember if there was an answer but someone obviously heard me as a crew of two firefighters in BA came up

00:20:55 a crew of two firefighters in BA came up within two minutes of me sending this message I'll just read to the end I still had the two middle-eastern guys there with me when a ba crew arrived the two guys didn't seem to know each other

00:21:07 two guys didn't seem to know each other but I think the other guy just stayed because I was there now just starting with your radioing down who did you radio down to do you think I didn't

00:21:19 radio down to do you think I didn't start the mission off of a name i radioed I just put a message out there to hope that someone would hear obviously okay on channel 1 what is that right yes did you get a confirmation back that your message had been received

00:21:30 back that your message had been received and understood I'm pretty sure I didn't get

00:21:33 get do that back did that concern you I kept saying it and I think I stopped saying it when I saw the gloves of firefighters

00:21:46 it when I saw the gloves of firefighters further down floors down the floors down coming up they're holding the handrail coming up yes and we go on to look at that in the next paragraph so you say I'm sure I transmitted this message several times over the radio and the

00:21:58 several times over the radio and the several times though their radio is that because you weren't getting a confirmation back first time at that time I thought the that information that I had that there was someone's life in

00:22:09 I had that there was someone's life in danger immediately I I had to keep repeating myself you know right you had to keep repeating yourself and did you learn anything from the fact that you

00:22:22 learn anything from the fact that you had to keep repeating yourself about whether or not the earlier messages you'd sent to Mike Dowden had successfully got through or not when

00:22:37 successfully got through or not when I've radioed down previous floors this is a basic for everybody I don't expect the reply and as I said the if there was a fire on the fifth sixth and

00:22:49 there was a fire on the fifth sixth and seventh floor it'd be visible from outside yeah the information that I had there no one else would have known except for me and that's why I continuously transmitted that over the radio yes do you remember telling

00:23:04 radio yes do you remember telling anybody over the radio in your message over the radio that there was a male on the 16th floor who was bed bound did you explain that I'm not too sure whether I

00:23:17 explain that I'm not too sure whether I used phrase bed bound but I said I need to cruise up be a cruise up to the 16th floor I don't know ever I put the full description in of what to expect when they come up do you remember and if you

00:23:30 they come up do you remember and if you don't you don't but did you remember giving the impression or picture that there was somebody in the flat a flat on the 16th floor who couldn't self

00:23:41 the 16th floor who couldn't self evacuate

00:23:42 evacuate I I can't remember right now where why I said that and then in the next paragraph

00:23:50 well let me just stick with this one just a line above the end you say I still have the two Middle Eastern guys there with me when a BA crew arrived where were you standing when the BA crew arrived do you remember if I remember

00:24:03 arrived do you remember if I remember rightly I believe I was standing with the two guys at the time when they came up yes whereabouts in the staircase that may have been around I think it could

00:24:15 may have been around I think it could have been actually floor 9 right around floor 9 you think I know I opened the door to floor 9 to check the what floor that we were on she'd probably says it

00:24:29 that we were on she'd probably says it later on in my statement but I can't whether I met the guys we walked down a floor or not I can't remember well let's look let's look at the next paragraph if your statement which I think gives us a

00:24:40 your statement which I think gives us a little bit more information you say that you explained how the VA crew came up Jamal and dick which is only QL Stern and Richard Hipple and you say in the

00:24:51 and Richard Hipple and you say in the fourth line they didn't have anything to put the fire out they just had their ba sets on so is that right they didn't have water with them no no you mean it

00:25:02 have water with them no no you mean it yeah they didn't so certainly didn't have water with them no but they didn't have homes or anything to put the fire out with from that night I didn't have did that surprise you know why didn't it

00:25:16 did that surprise you know why didn't it surprise you of course they've come up to rescue someone and they obviously didn't have any homes with them given the conditions in all the the lobbies on floor 9 that

00:25:28 in all the the lobbies on floor 9 that you'd seen of smoke and given the messages that you'd sent you'd thought you'd sent earlier did it not surprise you that the VA the first to be a where is that come up and you encounter had

00:25:40 is that come up and you encounter had come

00:25:40 come without without water no no didn't and you say I said to them up to the 16th

00:25:52 you say I said to them up to the 16th floor there's a guy who's bed-bound and just just on that do you remember that those were the words you used I believe it would have been yes right and they they're not they then asked you what

00:26:04 they're not they then asked you what floor is this and then you you explained that you went down and opened the lobby door and the floor below that floor was clear of smoke and therefore I knew that this was the ninth floor I will then adopt up on to the half

00:26:16 I will then adopt up on to the half landing where they were standing and said this is the ninth you're about to go to the 10th so you'd come down from the 12th and encountered them around about between the ninth and the tenth it

00:26:28 about between the ninth and the tenth it looks like I may have even met them on the 12th from walk down a couple of flights every what I can't remember okay

00:26:42 how were those firefighters going to effect a rescue did you think at the time on the floors where there was smoke without having access to water because I

00:26:57 without having access to water because I because don't go in and rescue someone I don't understand the question well how when they made an entry into a lobby on the floor where you seen smoke but

00:27:08 the floor where you seen smoke but didn't have water how would those firefighters know that it was safe to do so they wouldn't have known it was safe to do so I would have gone in to see if

00:27:19 to do so I would have gone in to see if it was too hot or

00:27:28 okay and just in terms of floor numbering before we leave that paragraph they asked you with what floor is this

00:27:42 obviously one can ask them why they asked it that question but but while asking you why did you have to look in to the lobby on the ninth floor to be

00:27:53 to the lobby on the ninth floor to be able to tell them or floor it was because they didn't know what floor it they were on I know well why did you have to look into the lobby on the ninth floor as opposed to looking at the numbering in the stairwell as I said

00:28:05 numbering in the stairwell as I said before I don't recall seeing any numbers in the stairwell did you do you remember looking for numbers in the stairwell in order to be able to answer their question not okay

00:28:24 and then at the bottom of the page you say stern and hip he'll came back within five minutes and spoke to me in the half landing where I was still standing can

00:28:36 landing where I was still standing can you discomfort for me which that was is that still the half landing between the ninth and the tenth floors that's right yes okay what were the air conditions like at that point do you remember yeah I thought they were

00:28:47 do you remember yeah I thought they were clear you thought they were clear yes and they then say they said that they were low on air say they had to go back down

00:29:02 did they do you remember them radioing down or communicating with anybody in your presence as to what they'd found when they'd got up to the 16th floor no

00:29:14 when they'd got up to the 16th floor no you go on to say they also told me that they'd reached the 16th floor to open the door to that floor but there was thick black smoke in the lobby they also said it was really hot and they had no firefighting equipment when

00:29:31 they had no firefighting equipment when you heard that did you radio down for immediate firefighting no do you know whether they did no do you know why you

00:29:43 whether they did no do you know why you didn't at that stage when I come down yes it was my objective to get the two guys that I was with at the building

00:29:55 guys that I was with at the building right ok so you turned your attention to the two males who had come down and that's correct yes I thought you'd have a q8 them okay did you have any thoughts about what might be happening on the

00:30:07 about what might be happening on the 16th floor and what plan there would be for affecting firefighting or rescue on the 16th floor where what one of the male's fathers was bad bad

00:30:24 and you then go on to say

00:30:38 the crew this is sup I'm sorry this is the second paragraph the crew walked past me and as they were going down I said to the two guys we have to go down it's too smoky can you explain that

00:30:49 it's too smoky can you explain that while that was an excuse and then say the guy asked me what about my father I said we will have to get another crew up there did you having told him that

00:31:04 up there did you having told him that did you radio down to make sure that another crew was going to come up to the 16th floor to carry out the rescue no obviously the conditions in there were

00:31:15 obviously the conditions in there were getting smoky we said the God put his hood over his face so as I said my main concern was to get these two people out

00:31:26 concern was to get these two people out yeah and then speak to someone downstairs to tell them that there was someone up on the 16th floor did you having having heard what you'd heard

00:31:37 having having heard what you'd heard from Hipple and Stern about the conditions on the 16th floor did you form a view at the time about whether there was any point in sending firefighters and and/or a rescue team to

00:31:49 firefighters and and/or a rescue team to the 16th floor well obviously yeah having heard what

00:32:00 well obviously yeah having heard what the conditions were like from Hipple and stern on the 16th floor did you form a view did you have a taught at the time about whether there was any point in

00:32:12 about whether there was any point in calling for firefighting on the 16th floor or a rescues or a rescue team I

00:32:21 I hope my twin excuse me yeah I thought that the guy may passed away yeah

00:32:38 would that be the first time during your trip up the tower that you'd had a thought about an actual fatality yes was

00:32:53 thought about an actual fatality yes was that a significant moment to you

00:33:06 I suppose oh yes what did it mean to you in terms of what you could now do it in terms of evacuation or or or getting

00:33:17 terms of evacuation or or or getting further firefighters into the building well after that it was obviously my sole purpose to get these two gentlemen to

00:33:34 purpose to get these two gentlemen to get these two guys out at a building and inform someone else in person and then try and get as many be a crews in there into the tower as possible I'm sorry to

00:33:45 into the tower as possible I'm sorry to keep pressing this this point about communication did you think it was important to communicate with somebody either at the bridgehead or outside the tower that you thought that things had

00:33:57 tower that you thought that things had become so serious higher up in the tower sixteenth floor that there you thought they might now be a fatality they're not by the radio no I was as I said I was had to two guys in front of me don't

00:34:10 had to two guys in front of me don't want to get them out of the building

00:34:19 now you describe in the third paragraph on page 18 of your statement the journey down the stairs following Stern and

00:34:32 down the stairs following Stern and Hipple did you say in the third line I think they stopped outside the fourth floor lobby where they had run the hose in through the door as there was smoke coming out of the lobby door into the

00:34:43 coming out of the lobby door into the stairwell the smoke wasn't rising and it seemed there wasn't enough air circulating in stairwell I could still see that the conditions were uncomfortable to be in now you say that

00:34:59 uncomfortable to be in now you say that they've been a hose run onto the fourth floor is is that we've heard some evidence before last week about the hose being run up from the third floor to the fourth floor but you weren't involved in

00:35:11 fourth floor but you weren't involved in necessarily but do you was that hose the one that had been set into the third floor and run up into the fourth floor lobby I don't know it could be from the

00:35:23 lobby I don't know it could be from the third they may have been up from the fourth I don't know okay and where else might where was that hose coming from

00:35:35 might where was that hose coming from did you see I couldn't remember the exact floor was those homes did you seek to remove the hose no did you seek to

00:35:48 to remove the hose no did you seek to get the full floor lobby daughter shut that was fine there was firefighters in the doorway right there they were yeah you remember who they were there was two

00:36:01 you remember who they were there was two firefighters obviously I don't I don't know who they're the two were but when dick and Jamal stopped to speak to him they were also on the half landing

00:36:13 they were also on the half landing outside the door standing over their homes right did you have any this kind of discussion with them about whether it was sensible to prop the fourth floor

00:36:24 was sensible to prop the fourth floor lobby stairwell door open with a hose to a Latin set because it was allowing smoke out into the state well I main objective is to get these two guys out sure how seriously

00:36:37 two guys out sure how seriously compromised with smoke was propping the fourth floor lobby door open making it at that time yes so do you mean like

00:36:48 at that time yes so do you mean like then articulate let me try again well you saw the smoke coming out from the fourth floor lobby into the stairwell and through the through the door was that smoke making making the

00:37:04 door was that smoke making making the conditions in the stairwell noticeably worse yes and because it was making the additions in the stairwell noticeably worse did you did you not think to have

00:37:16 worse did you did you not think to have a conversation with the other firefighters about shutting that door so as to stop smoke coming into the stairwell now as I say there two guys stopped just as just before the smoke

00:37:28 stopped just as just before the smoke started to get heavy it was like a wall of smoke so and I pushed them through that to go down the stairs I didn't have time to speak to him about the policy of

00:37:40 time to speak to him about the policy of bringing home food doors going up stairs and into other doors because obviously that is high-rise procedure yeah and you mentioned policy just now just just

00:37:51 mentioned policy just now just just remind me about what you mean by that it is against policy to use houses to prop doors open because of the risk of smoke leaking out from the lobbies from the

00:38:04 leaking out from the lobbies from the third floor up to the fourth yeah so that doors it propped open right but keeping the doors propped open is that is that in accordance with policy or contrary to policy that's a desk what

00:38:15 contrary to policy that's a desk what you should do is out so according to policy yes and is that because there's only one exact it on each floor some buildings have alternate floors but I

00:38:28 buildings have alternate floors but I mean when you've got a dry risers we know there was here would you expect there to be only a single hose connection at each level on that building yes I can't think of

00:38:42 on that building yes I can't think of any other billet have two outlets on each floor thinking and you go on in your statement to say the to be a crew

00:38:55 your statement to say the to be a crew seemed to think it was okay to stop there at this door but the smoke was even a bit too much for me and I was concerned about my health you say even

00:39:07 concerned about my health you say even for you you weren't wearing BA at all I probably badly worded that was so what do you mean yes it was the smoke was bad right say do you think it was so bad

00:39:19 right say do you think it was so bad that you couldn't breathe it without VA definitely yeah right and do you remember how high up in the stairway did this did that did the smoke reach at that point it must have started to get

00:39:35 that point it must have started to get from as I said when I on the ninth floor it we start to get smoky which I don't least widened when the guy put these top ivories face I think that I'd have to

00:39:50 ivories face I think that I'd have to only guess really but it must been around the fifth floor that it started to get heavy so it was just before it was a bit before where the house winning to the doors right okay

00:40:09 and then you go on to describe how you got out of the tower and that's in the last paragraph on page 18 and you say there once I got outside I saw station

00:40:22 there once I got outside I saw station manager Brett loft he's quite a big guy which is probably why I noticed him

00:40:29 station manager Loft was standing where our fire engine was parked talking to someone else in a white helmet they were the only people I could see in white helmets and I didn't realize that it was such a dynamic incident at the time

00:40:42 such a dynamic incident at the time therefore I assumed he was in charge now we have him just to get this in time we have in booking status 3 so arriving at

00:40:55 have in booking status 3 so arriving at the incident at oh one 3208 that's according to the short incident log and we also have a mr. Samuel Daniels

00:41:09 we also have a mr. Samuel Daniels exiting the tower at oh one 3840 and mr. Hameed Wahby at a 130 849 according to the CCTV cameras so that's giving you

00:41:20 the CCTV cameras so that's giving you giving a time ok can you repeat those time to handle this yes say so Brett loft book status 301 3208 and we have mr. Daniels and mr. Wyatt exiting the

00:41:32 mr. Daniels and mr. Wyatt exiting the tower

00:41:32 tower 138 40 and 138 49 and those we think of the two individuals you come down if it was then that you were talking to and following following down the tower does

00:41:44 following following down the tower does that help you in pin down the time that you exited the tower no okay now on page 19 you describe the conversation and

00:41:56 19 you describe the conversation and this isn't the first paragraph on that page third line you describe the conversation you had with mr. loft you say so I was telling SM loft about one person the sixteenth floor that he

00:42:07 person the sixteenth floor that he probably had bigger problems to worry about however at that time I thought if I give him that information and I don't have to worry about it anymore and find something else to do I said to him there's a guy on the 16th floor he's

00:42:18 him there's a guy on the 16th floor he's bed bound the crew can't get to him because it's too hot to smoke you up there I didn't wait for a response as I had given him the information and there were other things I needed to do things such as this which are quite serious go

00:42:30 such as this which are quite serious go past my rank and they're not a problem that a firefighter would deal with do first of all do you remember using those words to him do you think yes did you

00:42:44 words to him do you think yes did you think at the time that he had sufficiently registered those words I don't know okay do you know do you happen to know what what station manager loft then did about

00:42:57 what station manager loft then did about what you told him no that

00:43:04 do you know or did you know who the incident commander was at about this time no you then go on in your statement

00:43:17 time no you then go on in your statement in the next paragraph to say after speaking to Brett I went straight back into the building and went straight up to the bridgehead on the second floor to get stuck in and see how I could help

00:43:28 get stuck in and see how I could help are you able to estimate when you arrived at the bridgehead no okay was it long after you left the building or or a short time Oh it'll be a very short time

00:43:39 short time Oh it'll be a very short time okay and then you described in that paragraph your arrival at the bridgehead

00:43:51 paragraph your arrival at the bridgehead and you you say in the fourth line I thought that this was it was on this floor third floor because I took some photos of the bridgehead before we moved which I will dig detail later where a three can be seen printed on the walls

00:44:04 three can be seen printed on the walls what come to look at those in a in a moment but let let me just ask you um you this you say however a resident you say the three printed on the wall he was

00:44:20 say the three printed on the wall he was that the the place where there at the time were China draft details being placed on the wall by by firefighters

00:44:31 placed on the wall by by firefighters will by a bridgehead crew do you remember when when you saw the three being printed on the walls you remember whether people were using China graft pencils to to put details of flats and

00:44:44 pencils to to put details of flats and flaws on the wall yes free that I was looking at was a free that was stenciled on and apparently it was the old numbering system see if I can ask you then

00:44:59 system see if I can ask you then now I can ask you to look at your exhibits and go

00:45:10 to exhibit job4 which is met triple zero one five six two five it's probably easy to do it this way rather than me asking you to remember it is this the

00:45:26 you to remember it is this the photograph that you're referring to here that was that is a photograph that a frame that yes that's that's that and we're in relation to the lifts is that

00:45:38 we're in relation to the lifts is that three do you remember that warms up as it lifts right okay and at the time you took that photograph do you think that that's where the bridgehead was or not

00:45:51 that's where the bridgehead was or not I'm looking at a decent open leaving with a will it be able so we were leaving that floor and I think we were going up one floor okay and these folks

00:46:07 going up one floor okay and these folks you say later on page 24 just said we've got a reference to it last paragraph on 24s need to go to it because we'll come to it in a moment but that's where you say that you took those photographs at

00:46:19 say that you took those photographs at 308 hours on the 14th of June just can you confirm that yes right what did you take those two photographs with I find I

00:46:31 take those two photographs with I find I had my personal phone now we'll come back to those in the moment because all to ask you there one or two detailed questions about it but just to continue with with your story if you go to page

00:46:44 with with your story if you go to page 20

00:46:51 you describe the role that you had taken on and can you just tell tell us at that

00:47:08 on and can you just tell tell us at that stage what it was you were doing say well let's just see if I can make it easy for you the bottom of page 19 you

00:47:19 easy for you the bottom of page 19 you say in the second last paragraph when I got to the bridgehead Alex distant Alden was doing the initial be a board what do you what is what do you mean by that he had he had to first be a board right

00:47:32 had he had to first be a board right who's taking the talia to feei wheras okay and you say I knew we would need more than one be able running so I picked up another and started a second ball I didn't bring board into the building someone else must have brought

00:47:44 building someone else must have brought another one up and then you say you're supposed to wear a jerky and check a bid when doing this row but I got just got straight on with the tasks they didn't put one on what were you doing what is

00:47:56 put one on what were you doing what is the task that you had taken on for yourself well by the sounds of it I actually I must have got a be a board off of the one of the trucks and brought

00:48:07 off of the one of the trucks and brought it in myself I didn't mean that they'd all forgot I did and get innominate artist doing exactly what Alex was doing by taking tallies off PA wearers okay

00:48:19 by taking tallies off PA wearers okay and then at the bottom of page 19 and over the top of page 20 but you say I decided to get stuck in and find a job for myself so I took on this task and is that the task that you just described of

00:48:31 that the task that you just described of being yes yes and was that that's a task that you volunteered yourself for you weren't instructed I don't think anyone asked me to do it no no and you say this

00:48:43 asked me to do it no no and you say this is still only about 15 minutes after I arrived on scene so possibly 115 to 120 given what was at least half an hour out

00:48:54 given what was at least half an hour out yeah you think I was going to ask do you think about half an hour out well I'd say so certainly out yes right but you think you could put that you set half an

00:49:05 think you could put that you set half an ass you think you'd put that around about 140 to 145 you can't make must be a photograph of me outside coming in if

00:49:16 a photograph of me outside coming in if they've seen me coming in with it be a board around that time well we can track that down and do you remember whether at

00:49:29 that down and do you remember whether at that stage firefighters were being briefed by anybody at the bridgehead before they were being deployed I don't remember do you remember whether any

00:49:40 remember do you remember whether any firefighters were coming back to the bridgehead and describing what they'd seen higher up the building I can't remember do you remember whether there was any debriefing between firefighters and edge of control or all the before

00:49:53 and edge of control or all the before the watch manager running the bridgehead at that time is this Palin well at the time you were at the bridgehead setting up entry when I was setting up now I don't remember

00:50:04 don't remember and after that later on I remember people coming down and obviously being debriefed all right let me try a bit more specific once you'd set up and got your BA under control running at that

00:50:19 your BA under control running at that point and let's let's take a period of time of half an hour or so after that do you remember the pattern of events so in

00:50:32 you remember the pattern of events so in terms of the pattern of events was there a debriefing system whereby returning fire fighters would debrief with entry control about lava scene in the bill I couldn't tell you if there was a pattern of it now okay do you remember whether

00:50:45 of it now okay do you remember whether any dedicated team as being allocated to the rescue of vulnerable people in the building people with mobility issues or children or anything like that was there any discussion at the bridgehead about

00:50:56 any discussion at the bridgehead about what to do with people I didn't hear any discussion about people who were disabled or no elderly and children know when you arrived at the bridgehead

00:51:09 know when you arrived at the bridgehead to start this systems you just just explained do you remember who was in charge of the bridgehead no okay

00:51:20 charge of the bridgehead no okay was there a system in place did you see for tracking fire survival guidance calls when I first got there I'll put the BI board up the Department of stays and was getting hit by the ceiling

00:51:33 and was getting hit by the ceiling there's a bi cruise going in so we moved around to the lobby shortly after I don't know who who said to move but I'll move my board around

00:51:44 to move but I'll move my board around right into the lobby on the second floor onto the lobby is right that was shortly after I'd arrived yes right and what were the conditions like a bad stage

00:51:57 okay and just to go back to my question at that stage when you got your BA board set up in the second floor lobby was

00:52:08 set up in the second floor lobby was there a system in place by then for tracking far survival guidance calls being taken by control and and the results being fed back to the bridgehead I can't remember there when started no

00:52:21 I can't remember there when started no was there a system that came into place later during the night yeah I believe that photo that was taken with the printed three on the wall I believe that

00:52:32 printed three on the wall I believe that was the system that was adopted if that was 308 so that's at least an hour after you'd started to setting up your entry control the photos taking that time but I don't know when that started writing

00:52:46 I don't know when that started writing on the wall with the China graph do you remember who was in charge of that system

00:52:49 system I think what's manager DaSilva was doing them writing well I I know she was at least doing the writing at some of it okay you let me just ask you about the

00:53:01 okay you let me just ask you about the system if you could go to jail before I'm sort of ask you about this with this photograph could you just put it up on the screen please mr. documents direct and we'll

00:53:12 please mr. documents direct and we'll have a look at it you could just enlarge it as far as he can first of all we know

00:53:24 it as far as he can first of all we know as you told us that this was taken to 308 in the in the in the night when did when did this writing start to go onto this this wall here I don't know okay where did this where was this wall in

00:53:36 where did this where was this wall in relation to the second floor bridgehead the first the opposite the lips and my

00:53:48 the first the opposite the lips and my back would have been to the lift doors be a point in front of me and then that would have been in between Alex and myself okay and who was a started

00:54:00 myself okay and who was a started writing these numbers on the wall I don't know was that system of writing numbers on the wall there before you arrived at the bridgehead or did it start after you arrived at the

00:54:11 start after you arrived at the bridgehead I don't know you don't know you don't know I don't know it could have been started before and what was

00:54:22 have been started before and what was the system what was this system what's what's happening here I wouldn't have to speculate I mean I have an idea but maybe you'd be better off asking someone who wrote it and when you are operating

00:54:34 who wrote it and when you are operating the bridgehead entry control board you were operating did you have any input into the information that was being placed on the wall no

00:54:48 so if I was to ask you for example what does when you look at 23 yes and then a ring around 205 within a line through it and then a ring around to a four and a

00:54:59 and then a ring around to a four and a line through it if I was to ask you what that meant could you tell me I wouldn't like to speculate no but I don't want you to speculate I don't know what your knowledge no okay

00:55:21 let me see if I can

00:55:26 I asked you to swallow to other other questions before we look in more detail at these photographs do you remember from your time at the bridgehead whether firefighters were encountering difficulties in in locating residents to

00:55:39 difficulties in in locating residents to rescue I think so you think so would you be a bit more specific yeah during your

00:55:52 be a bit more specific yeah during your time at the bridgehead do you remember whether firefighters were encounter encountering difficulties locating residents to rescue them you mean like

00:56:03 residents to rescue them you mean like cuz of the smoke fire indoors you you tell me well let me see if I can get it in a different way when you are at the bridgehead do you remember firefighters coming back down to you saying we can't find someone in a

00:56:16 saying we can't find someone in a particular flat on a particular no did you have a system of what when you dispatched firefighters to a particular

00:56:27 dispatched firefighters to a particular flat or a particular floor checking off with them whether they've been successful in their missions that didn't go through me when they come back no did it go through anybody I would say so yes

00:56:39 it go through anybody I would say so yes who I wouldn't like to say maybe what's rented you to say of apartheid as I say you'd have to ask Derek can I just ask

00:56:50 you'd have to ask Derek can I just ask you then to look at

00:56:54 well those you can try and interpret this for me in the next photograph is J OB v which is m ET triple zero one five six and two nine on this one we see and

00:57:10 six and two nine on this one we see and it made I think it's just a bit clearer on the left side you say twelve floor right handle RH wall third something for

00:57:21 right handle RH wall third something for the third flat for persons do you know who do you know who wrote that they're not out do you know where this

00:57:33 not out do you know where this information 12th floor RH or third flat four classes would have come from no what about the other information that we see there which we looked at on the one

00:57:44 see there which we looked at on the one of the other on the earlier photograph with with 23 205 204 do you know if that information would have come from

00:58:02 can I ask you to look at some photographs you took at 2:17 just to focus you on your statement you'll find

00:58:13 focus you on your statement you'll find this in your statement on page 24 in the third main paragraph on that page I'll show you the statement first and then

00:58:24 show you the statement first and then I'll look at that look at the photographs you say later on a crew of four firefighters from Soho arrived and

00:58:36 four firefighters from Soho arrived and despite the fact that I had to be a boards running we ran out of the room to put their tallies in the boards in order for the crew to be committed inside the tower I wrote their details in China graph on the wall to the right of the

00:58:47 graph on the wall to the right of the right hand lift I recorded who they were their call sign where they were going the time they went in and made sure these details were definitely correct and I also took four photos of the wall whether I had recorded this information

00:58:59 whether I had recorded this information at the time I did it 2:17 on the 14th of June using my phone and there are four of these you saying you exhibit them up JAV 8 to 11 so I just wanted to look at

00:59:10 JAV 8 to 11 so I just wanted to look at the photographs and see if I can yeah see if I eat a gather can can get more information out of them so Jo v8 first of all this is m18 triple zero one 307

00:59:24 of all this is m18 triple zero one 307 for mr. Chau and I'm looking at the clock it's it's 11 o'clock we've been going an hour I think I might

00:59:35 we've been going an hour I think I might be able to complete this line of questions within 15 minutes what if you can be very convenient if it's convenient Ella if the witnesses yes you have um okay to keep going this room huh yes sir all right thank you

00:59:47 room huh yes sir all right thank you very much well we'll do that and get through it more quickly so just looking then first of all at Jo b8 which we've got there this is your this is your

01:00:00 got there this is your this is your writing as business as you say yeah yeah could you just explain to us take us through very slowly what we see here

01:00:11 aside from Soho downwards I would say that that's the name of the crews that were going in right so just pause there

01:00:23 were going in right so just pause there you put floor nine and then six five in a ring this is in the left hand box so I think that they've gone up to search floor nine flat 65 a so post crew of

01:00:36 floor nine flat 65 a so post crew of four that's their names and I think that might be the time that they've gone in at 205 right and when you wrote floor 965 where did you get that information

01:00:47 965 where did you get that information from they gave me the information as they were giving me the tally of what floor still going on so I see so is the BA Cruz who told you where they were

01:00:59 BA Cruz who told you where they were going is that right they were coming up to me and telling me where yeah where they were where don't be okay do you know did you know the time when they were getting that information from no

01:01:11 were getting that information from no okay and this is this is still second floor bridgehead is it yes it is yes yeah and you can just see you can just see it they can lift number just in the

01:01:23 see it they can lift number just in the top left-hand corner of the photograph which looks like the lift is on the floor ten so presumably that is just by the myths is it is that right that's right yes okay and you write floor 965 that's where you're sending Soho crew

01:01:35 that's where you're sending Soho crew for and there are four individuals and then underneath that you it looks as if you've written 205 is that right yes yes

01:01:47 you've written 205 is that right yes yes what can you help us what does that seem I think that was the time that they gave me their tonyia right okay

01:01:59 just double-check that

01:02:19 and

01:02:28 we can we can chase that after the telemetry data to some extent you think that was the time yeah the it won't be on the telemetry data because they there

01:02:40 on the telemetry data because they there wasn't enough room in there be a boards

01:02:47 but you think you might have got some of them well that's just assessing what we can do if you go to the telemetry data which is to have one of the bundle you

01:02:59 which is to have one of the bundle you just flip across to that and see if you can nail this down and if you go down to

01:03:17 if you go down to be a five nine three

01:03:28 you can see that there is against number s DBA 1271 so very first where Saunders

01:03:41 s DBA 1271 so very first where Saunders Jonathan Natalia time of o2 o4 27 and that Saunders who think is this right

01:03:52 that Saunders who think is this right corresponds with what you've written on the wall you get back to back to the picture yes

01:04:05 there's Saunders and we didn't need to get back to the telemetry data but we also have Nelson who happens to be from West Hampstead tallying out of 204 yes

01:04:25 does that help you pin that down in terms of timing he's led to a fight I would say that that was the time that they are kind of right now okay so you then have on the

01:04:44 right now okay so you then have on the right-hand side you can see it says floor five and then a box underneath it clear Johnson straight routes and then 14 straight for floor so paper on three

01:05:00 14 straight for floor so paper on three interpret that for us I'm I'm potential to me it looks like those two guys and they've searched floor 40 was that the

01:05:16 they've searched floor 40 was that the 14 flat fourth floor for right I think it's clear maybe two one six one floor 19 okay

01:05:27 19 okay and again this information is being passed to you by those firefighters is it or I fall by somebody else it may have been passed to me by watch manager

01:05:38 have been passed to me by watch manager DaSilva okay and then underneath it there's a ring I'm not sure I can I can read those could you interpret you interpret that for us

01:05:54 the writing the names look like my writing I think but I don't that looks like a - OH

01:06:05 like a - OH 23rd and then underneath 201 and 205 could you help me with what else it might say

01:06:18 [Music]

01:06:24 um this isn't a place to speculate I'm sure but to me it looks like three names FBI where has gone up to the 23rd floor

01:06:35 FBI where has gone up to the 23rd floor to search flats maybe 201 and 205

01:06:48 and that might be ones were pumped that are free that doesn't really look like my writing there right

01:07:01 and we have if you go I'll tell it to you from the telemetry data if we have

01:07:10 proof from ones worth going up right and

01:07:19 then about that about 210

01:07:26 and a firefighter called acid from ones worth as well does that help yes I was

01:07:37 worth as well does that help yes I was there were at the station from the right and fell right we have yes we have three firefighters tallying out at about that time yeah a right about al-asad right

01:07:49 time yeah a right about al-asad right okay and we have so that would be they

01:08:02 okay and we have so that would be they were there cool song was pumping a free and as I say I that to me tells me that they were assigned to get to the 23rd floor and search flats 201 and 205 right

01:08:15 floor and search flats 201 and 205 right and did you okay so that that is your then up putting on the wall information as to where particular firefighters have

01:08:26 as to where particular firefighters have gone did you record anywhere what those firefighters did when they came back down where it's clear which I can only

01:08:42 I'm not sure why I would have broke clear on that maybe someone's told me that they've cleared flat

01:08:58 yeah I can't remember writing it this would have obviously been on on the the wall opposite as well oh and did

01:09:14 wall opposite as well oh and did do you remember whether there was a system and I've asked you this before in relation to an earlier photograph but look just looking for example at the system you've got here writing the names

01:09:25 system you've got here writing the names and floors and flats firefighters who have been sent up into the building down on the wall was there a system for collecting from those firefighters and recording how successful their mission

01:09:36 recording how successful their mission was that would have been on the wall opposite on the wall opposite yes okay so let's go back to that if we can go back to job4 it's probably the best one

01:09:51 back to job4 it's probably the best one to look at it it might we could look at jv5 as well I think the same for this purpose so here are you saying that all

01:10:03 purpose so here are you saying that all of this photograph was taken at a later time the this set of information represented that the results of the deployments of ba bearers into them into

01:10:15 deployments of ba bearers into them into the tower

01:10:20 yes so looking at the top 123 for example you see a ring around 205 and a ring round 204 first of all what's the ring represent I couldn't comment okay

01:10:32 ring represent I couldn't comment okay what got should asked you an earlier question did you write this on the wall no because you know who did as I say it may have been what's wrong Egypt yeah you did say that before and you say you don't know what the ring represents around 205 or 204 what about the line

01:10:45 around 205 or 204 what about the line through each of those ones that doesn't know you'll see next 221 a tick do you know what the tick represents I'm gonna say no it could be the firm he's coming

01:10:57 say no it could be the firm he's coming but no I don't know no when I say tickets graphic tick okay if you don't know what that represents yeah top right-hand corner no sorry we're at

01:11:08 right-hand corner no sorry we're at cross-purposes you're quite right tic-tac in the top right hand corner but next to twenty one do you see 21 yes I say a tic as in right okay teachers tic oh no I don't know okay and then it next

01:11:22 oh no I don't know okay and then it next to 18 you see a tic mother and child no flatten it and they flat number do you know what that means no and what and then there's one five

01:11:34 no and what and then there's one five two and a ring next to it can you tell us what that

01:12:01 okay I'm thinking can I just ask you to put those photographs away update boy

01:12:13 can I ask you to look at page 23 of your statement mr. chairman I've got about probably five or ten minutes more

01:12:25 probably five or ten minutes more questions for this witness I'm just looking at my notes I'm very happy to as they sometimes do sensitive cut to finish it off you know have a break then we'll have a break yeah mr. Wrayburn if

01:12:39 we'll have a break yeah mr. Wrayburn if you go to parent page 23 of your statement you could see at the top of the page you say I believe it was around that also around this time when

01:12:50 that also around this time when firefighter Hill went missing a red light began flashing on my board which meant that his automatic distress signal unit had zu was going off on his BA set all I knew was that he was assigned to

01:13:02 all I knew was that he was assigned to go to the 22nd floor and he go on to explain what happened when you say all I knew was that he was assigned to go to the 22nd floor how did you how did you

01:13:15 the 22nd floor how did you how did you know that that was some of the information I managed to was true from him before he went with another crew member up to the 22nd floor right you

01:13:27 member up to the 22nd floor right you say it was the information you got from him did you keep that in your head all you did you not call that anywhere now I'll record it on the PA port right and when you did your statement you did you

01:13:41 when you did your statement you did you have that be a board information in front of you they be a board information continually gets wiped off when more members come up so when you did your statement how did you know that he as

01:13:52 statement how did you know that he as you say in your statement had been assigned to go to the 22nd floor because I had it written down on the board and then we realized he was his abs he was going up you say but you hate you had it

01:14:04 going up you say but you hate you had it written down on the board but is that something that you had in your I'm sorry I remembered after yes you remembered after

01:14:28 and I just wrote tried to work out how you remembered that because so far as I can see I don't see that in your contemporaneous Nate say it so when you

01:14:39 contemporaneous Nate say it so when you did your statement how did you remember that he that firefighter Hill in particular had been sent to the 22nd floor I'm telling you now and I don't exactly know what floor it was at the

01:14:50 exactly know what floor it was at the time I wrote that I was quite sure it was but it was written down on a be a board in China graph and obviously once he was found then it was wiped off right

01:15:02 he was found then it was wiped off right I think mr. Hill recollection is that he had been sent to the 12th floor uh-huh well obviously may

01:15:13 the 12th floor uh-huh well obviously may need to explore that with him do you can you comment on on that whether in fact it might have been the 12th floor not the 22nd floor okay possibly but it was

01:15:25 the 22nd floor okay possibly but it was quite I was writing a limit of a limited amount of information down and abort I was trying to write exactly what I heard as opposed to guess and what they've

01:15:37 as opposed to guess and what they've said so I was quite sure he would have said 22nd floor but yeah see we did we don't I don't think have any

01:15:49 don't I don't think have any contemporaneous documentation or photographs which show firefighter Hill being dispatched to the 22nd floor and I just wondered how it was that you could remember that say so clearly what I

01:16:02 remember that say so clearly what I obvious obviously I was quite sure at the time but I'm sure that the other officers would know the floor right

01:16:14 on page 20 okay bug on page 23 continuing with it you you go on to say

01:16:26 continuing with it you you go on to say and I'll summarize it you triggered a firefighter emergency but shortly afterwards he was found what was there a debriefing with firefighter he'll once

01:16:39 debriefing with firefighter he'll once he was located I don't know do you know where that only buddy took any information from firefighter Hill about what he'd found when he'd gone up into the top I don't know okay and if you go

01:16:52 the top I don't know okay and if you go to page 24 and look at the last paragraph this is where we we found earlier your reference to the

01:17:03 earlier your reference to the photographs we looked at at this repair which you took at 308 and you say gonna get in the first line there before we left the second floor sorry I started with beginning the paragraph later we move the bridge head up to the fifth

01:17:14 move the bridge head up to the fifth floor

01:17:15 floor before we left second floor I also took four more photographs on my phone at the FSG calls written on the wall but 308 hours on the 14th of June 2017 and those

01:17:26 hours on the 14th of June 2017 and those are what we looked at as job4 to jv7 it just in terms of timing and how soon before the bridge head was moved from the second floor to the fifth floor did

01:17:38 the second floor to the fifth floor did you take those photographs I took the photos of the [Music]

01:17:46 [Music] won't opposite their lips yes on the way out of the second floor to the floor so while you were on the move yes in one of the photos you see Father

01:18:00 yes in one of the photos you see Father decent Alban we've to be able leaving so he was going up to the fifth floor and obvious fun winning right and then he went up to the fifth floor and at the top of page 25 you say the reason we

01:18:13 top of page 25 you say the reason we moved to the fifth floor was that people were running out of air firefighters couldn't get high enough using the standard duration breathing apparatus the idea was to move up from the second floor to the fifth floor and then work

01:18:24 floor to the fifth floor and then work your way up rescuing people while they were putting the fire out and then you say I don't remember much about being up on the fifth floor as we weren't that are very long before moving down again however when we moved down we set up a

01:18:35 however when we moved down we set up a bridgehead on the ground floor there's just one or two questions about that what were the conditions like on the fifth floor when you arrived there to set up the bridgehead I can't really

01:18:47 set up the bridgehead I can't really remember up there but it would have been clear but not for long obviously because they moved back down again but I just say that period of that night is very vague being on the fifth floor okay and

01:18:59 vague being on the fifth floor okay and why did it move down to the ground floor do you remember I believe it was cuz their conditions are smoked right and in your statement also on page 25 of paragraph four you

01:19:10 also on page 25 of paragraph four you say I think at this point the stay-put policy may have changed or been withdrawn I think because when we got done to the ground floor group manager Pat Golborne told me to get all the firefighters out of the building he came

01:19:22 firefighters out of the building he came up to me and said get everyone out radio it from me and get everyone out now

01:19:30 first of all did you did you pass that message on did you radio it I first pushed the evacuation buttons on the two boards that I had right and then I got

01:19:41 boards that I had right and then I got my radio okay

01:19:46 and why did you think the message that group manager Kabul was giving you to get all the firefighters out of the building meant that the stay-put policy had been changed right did you get an

01:20:00 had been changed right did you get an impression of how long before PAP Golborne told you to get all the firefighters out but the stay-put policy had changed did you have any idea of how

01:20:12 had changed did you have any idea of how long before pat Golborne gave you that message that the stay-put policy might have been checked I was only making an assumption there that if we're getting the firefighters out I presumed it may have changed did you actually ever hear

01:20:24 have changed did you actually ever hear yourself on the fire ground on the night that the stay-put policy had changed no okay mr. chairman I've come to the end of my questions I think it's time for a break but I'm not sure I can see that

01:20:37 break but I'm not sure I can see that there may be some further questions which have been provided to me as follow-ups yeah by core participants which I will dog just to check over if I can say yes if the witness doesn't mind not being released immediately and

01:20:49 not being released immediately and coming back after the break well give you a break now do you mind waiting on and in case that's fine sir why well you leave us now we'll resume at 20 to 12:00

01:21:01 leave us now we'll resume at 20 to 12:00 okay don't talk to any or anything else and then we'll see if there are more questions thank you very much indeed

01:21:27 you

01:40:42 yes mr. bill mr. chairman as a result of the the break we'll break for some I have received a number of questions which I've examined and we feel we do need to ask this witness it won't take

01:40:54 need to ask this witness it won't take too long but if they can have him back for well we're asking to come back in

01:41:15 Thank You mr. Burnham there are a few questions that need to be are soon okay but not I had too many I hope not to detain you too much longer can I start with the subject of floor numbers and

01:41:28 with the subject of floor numbers and changes in floor numbers Grenfell tar had been on your patch for many years were you ever aware did become a time when you were aware that the floor

01:41:39 when you were aware that the floor numbers in the building of themselves changed no during the course of the night did you notice anything about whether the numbers of floors in the

01:41:50 whether the numbers of floors in the stairwells were clearly visible I don't remember seeing any numbers on the floor under stairwell okay then we just examine that you say you don't remember seeing numbers in the stairwell is that

01:42:02 seeing numbers in the stairwell is that do you mean that you use you remember not seeing any numbers or you can't remember one way or the other ie from my memory I didn't see any node or floor numbers in the stairwell at all

01:42:14 or floor numbers in the stairwell at all that's all right to the best of your recollection did the fact that as you

01:42:26 recollection did the fact that as you saw it and there were no stair there were no floor numbers in the stairwell effect the ability to transmit information to the bridgehead about where people were I'm not saying that

01:42:41 where people were I'm not saying that there wasn't numbers of nice days I just didn't see any so if you're asking about other people being able to transmit I don't as I say I don't know whether there was you don't underst - but from

01:42:53 there was you don't underst - but from my recollection I didn't see any okay did you were you aware on the night of any difficulties encountered by other firefighters or incident commanders as a

01:43:05 firefighters or incident commanders as a result of difficulties understanding what floor you are on because of numbering in the stairwell on that night no

01:43:18 okay new topic the evacuation by firefighters Hipple and stern I just want to look at that with you they were

01:43:29 want to look at that with you they were trying to evacuate an individual we think it's Joseph Daniels yes while others were being told to remain did you

01:43:40 others were being told to remain did you have a view at them at that time about why it was that those individuals were being evacuated but other people were being told to stay put I didn't know

01:43:51 being told to stay put I didn't know when I was standing in a stairwell that people are being told to stay put right that's very fair answer because I should have put that to you first but you have you've given me the answer

01:44:05 do you remember whether you told anybody at the bridgehead when you came down that firefighters were evacuating residents I don't think I spoke to anyone at the bridgehead I went straight

01:44:16 anyone at the bridgehead I went straight out to speak to an officer outside okay do you recall speaking to one of the two individuals which who is coming down

01:44:27 individuals which who is coming down with you out of the tower from higher up do you remember speaking to them about which floor his father was on sorry I

01:44:40 which floor his father was on sorry I did I do you remember the accomplice yes do you remember having a conversation with one of those individuals who said these father was on the 16th floor yes yes he told me his father was on the 16th not just building on that do you

01:44:53 16th not just building on that do you remember whether or not he told you which flat number he was in it if it was in my notes after I can't remember

01:45:14 and do you remember whether you told the firefighters that there was somebody in

01:45:26 firefighters that there was somebody in flat 135 on that night now I can't remember

01:45:30 remember the firefighters what flat he was in does the number flat 135 ring a bell with you recently it does yes at the time I don't as I say I can't remember

01:45:42 time I don't as I say I can't remember and you say recently it does just in the last two weeks flat number right okay but do you have any independent recollection standing there today on the night being told about somebody

01:45:55 on the night being told about somebody needing rescuing from flat one 135 as I say I'm not too sure whether the guy gave her that information of the particular flat okay do you have any

01:46:08 particular flat okay do you have any recollection about whether or not you passed information or all that but whether any information was passed by radio by either you or other

01:46:19 radio by either you or other firefighters about somebody needing rescuing in flat 135 I wasn't aware of that via radio and what about in person do you remember whether or not as I say I'm not too sure whether I had the

01:46:30 I'm not too sure whether I had the information of flat 135 so I'm not too sure whether I gave that information over

01:46:41 I just still on the subject of stern and Hipple in your statement pages 17 and 18

01:46:54 Hipple in your statement pages 17 and 18 if I could just ask you to look back at that please you say at the bottom you

01:47:06 that please you say at the bottom you describe at the bottom when we looked at this before that you had a conversation up with Stern and Hipple you'd come back down to you and you say they came back

01:47:22 down to you and you say they came back within five minutes were you waiting all that time I say all that time were you waiting for five minutes on the landing well they went up and came back

01:47:34 landing well they went up and came back down

01:47:35 down obviously I've proved that my estimation in timers have been very exact so but I've moved away from the two guys and went up to the half landing waiting for

01:47:48 went up to the half landing waiting for them but I've moved away from so I could listen to see if I could I hear I'm down or be here anything else right and the two residents you say you moved away

01:48:00 two residents you say you moved away from the two guys where did where did they stay or staff I believe they were standing on the denied floor landing right I didn't ask them to leave because I was hoping that the PA crews are going

01:48:13 I was hoping that the PA crews are going to come down with someone and we could all help to bring somebody out

01:48:20 and finally can I just ask you to look at Jo b8 which is M et triple zero one

01:48:31 at Jo b8 which is M et triple zero one three zero seven four which is one of the four photographs you took it Oh 217 and can we just look at something

01:48:44 Oh 217 and can we just look at something I should have asked you about and didn't below the box so I thought first of all in the box on the right where you see clear Johnson roots there's a second

01:48:56 clear Johnson roots there's a second half of the box we just examine that closely it says one six 1/19 floor and

01:49:08 closely it says one six 1/19 floor and then above it there's something was an arrow and then there's something which looks like it's been scribbled scribbled out can you just interpret that for us hey I could tell you what I think it

01:49:20 hey I could tell you what I think it means I don't know I would say that it looked like an ambush crew was gonna go in there to check one six one flat ninth floor 19 right and I think they've obviously not done it or whatever is

01:49:35 obviously not done it or whatever is happened and I've got the arrow down it looks like Soho's crew are going up to 161 flat one six one floor 19 I see let's see we've got an arrow going into

01:49:46 let's see we've got an arrow going into the what you think is Lambeth and a work and an arrow coming down from say ho-hum three so to me if I was I wouldn't say it's a guess but I would say that it's a

01:50:00 it's a guess but I would say that it's a to be a crew have searched and cleared flat 14 on floor four and now they have been assigned to check 161 on flat on

01:50:11 been assigned to check 161 on flat on floor 19 right does the does the name lamp role ring a bell with you know

01:50:23 lamp role ring a bell with you know can I just ask you about something else on that photograph of that wall below the box on the right and to the right of the information in the ring which we

01:50:34 the information in the ring which we looked at earlier you can see at an angle it says 1 1 3 and then underneath that 14th floor and then something next to the 1 1 3

01:50:45 and then something next to the 1 1 3 could you could you tell us what that is please I'm quite sure that that's not my writing oh I see whose writing might that be you don't you know what that's

01:50:58 that be you don't you know what that's about can you help us well now I don't

01:51:03 miss mystery bone thank you very much mr. chairman all no further so the further questions for this witness thank you very much for your evidence coming here and assisting us with our

01:51:14 here and assisting us with our investigations very grateful to you thank you thank you very much you saved me I'm sorry that it took longer than you were probably led to believe yes hope it hasn't been too disagreeable but

01:51:25 hope it hasn't been too disagreeable but your evidence has been very helpful so we're very grateful to you for coming thank you that's got ears thanks all right

01:51:44 mr. chairman thank you very much if we may I'd like to press on with our next witness

01:51:49 witness yes Daniel Egan good thank you she's ready to be called

01:53:05 thank you

01:53:10 I swear by Almighty God I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give to be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but nothing but the truth

01:53:21 nothing but nothing but the truth thank you very much history good morning now I'm comfortable giving your evidence standing up Mayan cities you are the first who if I stand please yes of course yes

01:53:32 course yes you might need to push it thank you yes mr. mr. Regan good morning come on

01:53:46 mr. mr. Regan good morning come on and first of all can I say thank you very much for coming to give evidence to the inquiry and we're very grateful for your doing so if there's any question that I ask you that you don't understand

01:53:58 that I ask you that you don't understand or you want me to repeat I'm very happy to do so and if you need to break at any point just say and of course if you want to sit down at any point also just feel free can I start by asking your to give

01:54:11 free can I start by asking your to give us your full name Daniel Reagan now you made a statement which we have here named on the 20th of October 2017 which

01:54:23 named on the 20th of October 2017 which is M eet quadruple zero seven five one five and I've got it there up on the screen if you'd all say it you should also have it in front of you in a blue

01:54:34 also have it in front of you in a blue file if you want to refer to it in in paper form and it's a but tab 7a of that file but we're going to be going to work on the basis of what's on the screen

01:54:45 on the basis of what's on the screen because it's usually easier for a channel there's a little screen to your right I didn't know what you find easier to read so we don't bothered you with information first of all to this

01:54:59 information first of all to this statement

01:54:59 statement do you remember making this statement yes okay yes and have you read it recently I have just read it yes right and can you please confirm for us that his contents are true if they are true

01:55:10 his contents are true if they are true and there are a number of notes and exhibits the notes deg six and that's any tea

01:55:20 any tea quadruple zero five two six three I'll just read these into the record if I can say people can find them later and there are four photographs GE G's one two five

01:55:33 are four photographs GE G's one two five photographs deg is one two five and these are M et triple zero one five six four two one five six three nine one five five nine eight one five six three

01:55:44 five five nine eight one five six three six and one five six three four your witness statement as I say was made on the 20th of October 2017 have you

01:55:57 the 20th of October 2017 have you discussed the contents of that statement or your evidence with anybody before coming here today

01:56:09 you also made as I say some contemporaneous notes which are at M et quadruple zero five two six three or deg

01:56:21 quadruple zero five two six three or deg six can I just show you those I just want to ask you about when you made them

01:56:29 there they are as Appendix A do you do you remember making these notes I do remember I think when I may I think I

01:56:41 remember I think when I may I think I made him that day or I might have made them the next day I think I made him that day right that was my question and did you type them up or did you write them out in longhand and give give them somebody to our type device right on the

01:56:52 somebody to our type device right on the computer yeah okay very good can either start properly then by asking you about your role in the London Fire Brigade I think you joined the London Fire Brigade in January in 1992 yes some

01:57:06 Fire Brigade in January in 1992 yes some 25 years before gramflour town fire that's right thank you and can you just give us a brief summary of your career up to June in 2017 so I joined the

01:57:22 up to June in 2017 so I joined the brigade in January 1992 I was posted to nitrous fire station and then went through a series of promotions needing firefighter at West Hampstead

01:57:33 firefighter at West Hampstead sub-officer Dagenham fire station I then went to a station officer in Enfield Fire Station and I eventually made its a

01:57:46 Fire Station and I eventually made its a station manager in 2013 as temporary and fully promoted in 2015 where I moved into fire safety and what was your rank

01:57:59 into fire safety and what was your rank in June 2017 station major and what was your role in June 2017 for the fire or just into 2017 Union

01:58:12 just into 2017 Union as a station manager which is operational attend operational incidents but my sort of day job was to deal with fire safety right very slander and that day job fire safety what could you just

01:58:23 day job fire safety what could you just give us an idea of what that role involved so my role as a fire safety team leader I have approximately 10 officers inspecting officers underneath me and we arranged premises to be

01:58:37 me and we arranged premises to be inspected under the fire safety order 2005 where we identified our highest risk or where we danger our highest risk premises and at June 2017 when you were

01:58:53 premises and at June 2017 when you were in your fire safety role where geographically we based based h-town Fire Station East Ham based hand wrap now turning to the night of the 14th of

01:59:06 now turning to the night of the 14th of June I want to ask you first of all about your mobilization you say I think that you were paged at about 1:00 a.m. with the information that there was a sixth on fire that's right right and we

01:59:18 sixth on fire that's right right and we have in the lfb logs and records and they need to take you to them the information that the call to make pump 6 was made from grenfell tower at oh one

01:59:30 was made from grenfell tower at oh one 13 19 or at least that's when the message was confirmed by by brigade control so just to fix that in your mind does that help identify what I like more

01:59:42 does that help identify what I like more specific for video specifically when you were first mobilized what information did you receive regarding the scale of the fire of grenfell so sizing officers

01:59:55 the fire of grenfell so sizing officers I was I was at home on camping out from beggin forest fire area my pager went off to say that I was to be mobilized to a six-month fire as a fire safety

02:00:07 a six-month fire as a fire safety officer I turn on my handheld radio which has got the mainstream radio for the brigade so you can hear what's going on

02:00:15 on so I get fear of the situation and I was trying to get through to control the control was really busy the radio it was extremely busy it was there was messages

02:00:26 extremely busy it was there was messages coming through and not just from that instant but from other instance that were going on I when she managed to get through to control and I said to who I

02:00:37 through to control and I said to who I was why I was responding to them it was clear to me that I think it had gone up so I think you I can't remember the exact but it was may pump 6 on my pager on my radio I think it went to 8 then it

02:00:50 on my radio I think it went to 8 then it went to 10 before I could get through to control it was sort of that quick my thought process rather than to find out specific things of are there any railways around will it affect any

02:01:02 railways around will it affect any schools which which we're trying to do to get from control or the number of calls I made an assumption that it was obviously a really big fire and I just need to be getting on my way because it was a long way for me to go so I booked

02:01:15 was a long way for me to go so I booked status to mobile to the incident and I said I'll pick the message messages up as I go

02:01:20 as I go right just focusing a little bit on one or two things you just said you said you turned your handheld radio which was which it had the main ski radio for the brigade which channel was that so it was

02:01:33 brigade which channel was that so it was on Channel I think it's on channel 4 channel channel 4 yes if you look at your statement first page third paragraph fourth line down you do say no I turned

02:01:44 fourth line down you do say no I turned to channel 4 which covers north of the river just just give us an idea of what that channel does what it covers we've heard about channel 1 fire ground and channel 6 which is it which is

02:01:55 channel 6 which is it which is communications to the bridgehead channel before is what why so this is a different radio frequency this is a channel 1 and channel 6 are your handheld fire ground radios that all firefighters have the this is like a

02:02:08 firefighters have the this is like a mainstream radio a bit like what you see the police carry and it talks to our our control right so you can communicate with them and Channel four is four like

02:02:19 with them and Channel four is four like in for instance and stations they are all for the river and I'm sure it's channeled Sowmya is channel so for anything that's out for the river right I see so you would change your channel

02:02:31 I see so you would change your channel to where you mobilize to to channel forth Northland river channel to south of the river yeah when to being just following that up would there be a time when you because of the traffic involved in a making a big incident want to borrow

02:02:45 making a big incident want to borrow capacity from channel 2 to use it for channel 4 yes answer not that way your client say it so this is what the appliance is listen to as well what

02:02:56 appliance is listen to as well what they're they're mobilized on this of their be on that channel if there is which it may have done for Grenville where there is so much radio traffic that's going on the brigade can use

02:03:07 that's going on the brigade can use channel 1 and sometimes they will divert their traffic to that and they'll move people to just channel 1 to deal with and leave channel 4 for the rest of the brigade if that makes sense yes it does

02:03:21 brigade if that makes sense yes it does I may come back to that yes but that's helpful and you say as you've just told

02:03:32 helpful and you say as you've just told us in D but in your statement you say for 3 lines up from the bottom of page 1 as I was preparing to leave I would could hear that the fire was escalating from six pumps to eight to ten to twelve

02:03:43 from six pumps to eight to ten to twelve you say 12 is that your recollection or this I just knew it was going quick it was just it was I thought I think he

02:03:56 was just it was I thought I think he went 6 8 10 or 6 8 12 or so it just went up it's unsurprising well it is surprising that it went that quick well

02:04:07 surprising that it went that quick well usually you just it doesn't go that quick sighs so just trying to gauge your reaction when you've heard it go 6 to 10 first of all where were you do you remember when it when you heard it go 10

02:04:19 remember when it when you heard it go 10 so I believe when it went 10 I was on the phone to control well I was just in my house in bag and I think you were still at home I was yes right

02:04:30 still at home I was yes right so you weren't yet status - I don't believe so no okay and what did you think when you heard that you having originally been paged for a 6th pump fire it was now gone through 18 was now

02:04:43 fire it was now gone through 18 was now ten so many persons are being placed as a fire safety officer so that's why I think I'm going to be going initially but when once once the call starts go up

02:04:54 but when once once the call starts go up that quickly I I was 99% certain that when I arrived at the incident I wouldn't be dealing with fire safety because there's there'd be more operational in roles that I should be

02:05:07 operational in roles that I should be performing right okay and what would fire safety as a role have involved if you had been called out to do to do that role which you don't sometimes you

02:05:20 role which you don't sometimes you attend in you and you ask them the officer in charge you know you make yourself known to them yes okay is that what you mean so I would turn up and in it and they say we'd like you trying to

02:05:32 it and they say we'd like you trying to take the role of fire safety officer you know are there things in the building that could help the fire crews yeah or is there plans for the building could you get hold of them for us and trying to look in same investigates them see if

02:05:44 to look in same investigates them see if there's safe routes out for people where there would try Rises or things like that ring that's very helpful and you see you say that given that it was now a 10 point fire you say you were 99%

02:05:58 10 point fire you say you were 99% certain that when you arrived at the incident you wouldn't be dealing with fire safety because he'd been doing more operational worlds what did you think he would be doing if not fire safety oh I as I was driving in and I was

02:06:12 oh I as I was driving in and I was listening to the radio I was thinking I'll be probably a sector commander somewhere a support for other officers that were there right

02:06:25 now according to the short incident log we've got you status to @o 1 1936 and on scene ie status 301 5839 I don't need to

02:06:40 scene ie status 301 5839 I don't need to take you back to the short incident Oliver but do those times correspond with your recollection of events yeah I'd say so regarding the the booking in time it may

02:06:51 regarding the the booking in time it may I may have been there before that due to radio traffic I can't actually recall booking in so so for me so what I would do is when I was senior officers when

02:07:02 do is when I was senior officers when they booked in they arrived then on their handheld radio you then contact and trial and then you tell them that your stay is through that's that pushing

02:07:13 your stay is through that's that pushing that button yeah it just puts you into a queue so there'll be a other machines that would have put there they would have requested to talk as well so you end up you could be 20th in the queue and control have to

02:07:25 be 20th in the queue and control have to eventually get to you I see so you said let's see if we can just nail that down on the shoulders of a lot is it that's very interesting if you go to bundle 20 bundles of documents tab 23 which is the

02:07:38 bundles of documents tab 23 which is the short incident log and have a look at page 13 we have the second half of that

02:07:49 page 13 we have the second half of that page is a list of officers with their call signs name assigned mobile on scene and available and your name appears as the

02:08:00 available and your name appears as the fifth the fifth down Oh F 67 Egan Daniel that's you I see yet and that's your callsign is this fine yeah and you were

02:08:11 callsign is this fine yeah and you were a sign it says at 115 28 mobile at 119 36 unseen at o 158 39 just in terms of

02:08:23 36 unseen at o 158 39 just in terms of what that log is telling us just explained it to me that long is telling us that you are that's a it clocked you as available or I wonder 15 was when I

02:08:36 as available or I wonder 15 was when I was told about it is 1:19 is when I eventually got fruits of control to book states to write and that's a no 158 is is when I got an a booked in it stays through right and is

02:08:48 booked in it stays through right and is that the 158 the moment when you that yourself press the button to book in on-scene or when the system recognizes you is on scene that must that would be

02:09:00 you is on scene that must that would be once that control was spoke to me so I must spoke to meto 158 right and in order to go status 3 I actually physically speak to somebody don't ya right who did you speak to hazard so on

02:09:12 right who did you speak to hazard so on the handheld radio you you press button 7 which then puts you into acute it's only it may be a few minutes out either way well not any later that makes sense and in controlling go through calling up

02:09:24 and in controlling go through calling up all of offices all over appliances that are pushed their permission to talk and eventually it will come to me and then I will say turn on that can you just show me stage 3 I see okay so sometimes it

02:09:37 me stage 3 I see okay so sometimes it can take four or five minutes by its own control can go through the motions but that's you know I did travel a long way to get there and that probably is there were there abouts to the actual time do

02:09:49 were there abouts to the actual time do you remember whether you waited long to from after pushing button 7 now somebody I can't remember when you'd ask that earlier I was trying to think and I can't remember if I had to wait a long time okay sorry

02:10:00 time okay sorry okay now on arrival when you first arrived you turn back to your statement on page two paragraph two you say

02:10:21 in the last four lines you described you pay put on your safety personal safety equipment you say I could see hundreds of people in the street it looked like a film people were

02:10:33 street it looked like a film people were shouting and screaming they were panicking and wanting people to help I could see that the tower was on fire and my first thoughts whether we needed to get everybody out I could hear the roar of the fire you see that yeah did you

02:10:51 of the fire you see that yeah did you did you share those thoughts with anybody at that time no I didn't you know because is there a reason why you

02:11:02 know because is there a reason why you you didn't share those thoughts with anybody at that time to be on it was honest it was it was obvious honesty it

02:11:14 honest it was it was obvious honesty it was obvious as you as I attended as I as I come around a corner and you could see it from sort of sort of nothing it was just horrendous

02:11:26 just horrendous and then by the time I didn't had to maneuver myself again and go and park up and get reached and getting reached and you can just hear people screaming and

02:11:37 it was just so obvious oh okay okay now we've got your status three time at just before 2:00 a.m. standing here and costing your mind back can you remember what parts of the tower

02:11:50 can you remember what parts of the tower were on fire from when at the moment you first arrived so from so well I would say it was the the front the tower so it would be the right hand sides so that

02:12:04 would be the right hand sides so that there was parts of the front it was quite high was a light and then from the right-hand side was a light as well there was a it seemed more folk recall it was more the right hand side that was

02:12:16 it was more the right hand side that was just going out right but some of you say some of the front and yeah so some of the front that whereabouts on the building the tops little but I think it's probably middle

02:12:28 it's probably middle front hit was the middle on the right hand side it was a few floors up and it was just going straight up right just straight up had you ever seen anything like that

02:12:39 had you ever seen anything like that before I have to say if it's that scale what what really did surprise me was that the slope travel usually usually

02:12:50 that the slope travel usually usually the tower blocks of like they create their own sort of wind around it and you see the smoke sort of blowing around this just seemed to be hugging the building and just following it straight the way up and that make it even in my

02:13:03 the way up and that make it even in my opinion it just made a bit area right what does that tell you about how the father's behaving fires up seen

02:13:15 father's behaving fires up seen previously they've had external fire fire on it haven't reacted that severe to me you to me my opinion was you

02:13:27 to me you to me my opinion was you cannot put that out yeah we haven't we're not going to have the resources to put that out you know from what we've got in that initial stages we're gonna need a hell of a lot more I'm going to

02:13:38 need a hell of a lot more I'm going to come back to that answer if I may in a moment but before I do can I just examine with you your experiences of exterior fires in your in your Experian

02:13:49 exterior fires in your in your Experian on experience in the London Fire Brigade do you have did you have it as a June 2017 experience of exterior fire spread I have had gel range fires that spread

02:14:02 I have had gel range fires that spread externally yes and and can you give us some examples what there's been fires in my lens where it's it's it's came out onto the balcony and and it's a it's

02:14:13 onto the balcony and and it's a it's called the floor above and the floor above that there's a one roof one recently after this fire where there's an external fire spreads in

02:14:25 an external fire spreads in Knightsbridge and it just went up the side of the building and the issues the issues are is that is

02:14:37 and the issues the issues are is that is it if it's staying on the the cloudiness as we all know what there is now if it stays on the cloud and that's that's probably not as dangerous it's when it starts to spread out and it then affects

02:14:48 starts to spread out and it then affects the windows isn't it so the windows aren't gonna accept that hate as at June 2017 were you aware of any training or education or intelligence within the

02:14:59 education or intelligence within the London Fire Brigade about the dangers posed to high-rise tower blocks by cladding structures on the exterior now my understanding is that the cladding

02:15:12 my understanding is that the cladding hysteria is to be zero rated so it shouldn't be it shouldn't take a flame but then I was led to believe that that's only the test is that they test

02:15:24 that's only the test is that they test the front of the panel doesn't go back to the question I think my question was actually not about the materials or test our question was about the D in the that

02:15:36 our question was about the D in the that the knowledge available in the London Fire Brigade so you can I'll put the question at a slightly different way as at June 2017 were you aware of any training or any intelligence or

02:15:48 training or any intelligence or information available in the London Fire Brigade or even mess table talked about about the risks to high-rise buildings that exterior cladding systems posed and

02:16:02 that exterior cladding systems posed and you heard of a fire at Shepherds Court I haven't no okay

02:16:11 and go back then to your answer that you gave earlier earlier on when you said and I'm paraphrasing you didn't think you could put it out what thoughts did

02:16:24 you could put it out what thoughts did you have about what should be done instead at that point my initial thoughts were that we need to get people out of building and just pick that up in

02:16:35 out of building and just pick that up in your statement on page two you I've shown you the last line of the first paragraph on that page you then recede

02:16:46 paragraph on that page you then recede in the next paragraph on the same page to describe the fire and you say in the last sentence I could hear the residents but I felt I could not look at them in

02:16:57 but I felt I could not look at them in case anyone fell and just felt all these people need to get out now just breaking that down you say I could hear the residents could you just explain or

02:17:11 residents could you just explain or describe for me what what you mean that you could hear you could hear just screaming it was unbelievably was screaming and it you couldn't I couldn't

02:17:22 screaming and it you couldn't I couldn't say it was that particular flowers from where I was but you could you could pick it up there it was coming from that direction whereas on this side you had sort of hundreds of people just

02:17:33 sort of hundreds of people just screaming and sharing and demanding that we would try and help them this is dumb so I'm clear when you say we I could hear residents and you described screaming it was that coming from inside

02:17:45 screaming it was that coming from inside the tower or from the people on the ground

02:17:47 ground when I initially turned out this was from the residents of our outside I see okay right could you hear any residents inside the tower there like that not at

02:17:58 inside the tower there like that not at that particular moment I've got to the town right and then you say I felt all these people needed to get out did you

02:18:09 these people needed to get out did you have any thoughts about how you would do that how you would evacuate the building

02:18:17 I have I I have my thoughts if I if it was my responsibility to do that know how I'll get them out yet and how how would you do that you'd have to do it in

02:18:30 would you do that you'd have to do it in a controlled manner you'd have to control the crews going into the building they would have to have breathing apparatus the amount of fire that was there we haven't we're not going to be able to

02:18:42 we haven't we're not going to be able to supply water to the firefighters and every single floor to protect their exit so they would have had been asked to go into a floor without any firefighting

02:18:54 into a floor without any firefighting extinguisher it would buy notice you know would it being a simple task to do it would have taken a lot of control unit in a lot of officers to try and

02:19:05 unit in a lot of officers to try and control the firefighters that would have been more than winning I'm sure to do everything that was necessary so sorry I'm sorry I'm so I don't need to send you take me to stop you so I'm just trying to get a picture you're standing

02:19:16 trying to get a picture you're standing there looking at the tower you can hear residents screaming you think yourself we're not going to be able to fight this fire we need to get everybody out what standing there what factually did you

02:19:27 standing there what factually did you know about the means of escape and the other fire safety measures present within grenfell tower yourself I've

02:19:38 within grenfell tower yourself I've never been Springfield's house I just made an assumption on what I know on the building construction of it been that they each that should be a compartment and that should be an hour fire

02:19:49 and that should be an hour fire resistant from the next compartment but from what what you could see quite clearly was that the fire was going from one side and affecting a flat in another side so not that I was up there but I

02:20:03 side so not that I was up there but I knew that the that means that the the fire must have jumped through the corridor so the compartment ation has broken down so you need to get the people out so you thought the

02:20:16 people out so you thought the compartment ation of broken-down broken-down internally internally right they say and did you think it had broken down just in parts or did you have a a thought about whether compartment

02:20:31 a thought about whether compartment ation breakdown was more widespread

02:20:36 there isn't there's a concern of that in my file safety valve it's a concern with myself and some of my inspecting officers with regards to the self closes on people's front doors in their flats

02:20:49 on people's front doors in their flats and we know that they get broke and we know that sometimes they get removed with the best intentions okay so it's like say don't slam shut some of these doors and there's writing for their

02:21:01 doors and there's writing for their children but some of them just break and we found over over the time that these perhaps don't get replaced so when I saw the tower and you and my vision was

02:21:13 the tower and you and my vision was there and my thought process was that it has gone from there it's missed out that flat and it's gone into that flat there there must be a compartment ation breach so one I'm thinking there must be a door

02:21:25 so one I'm thinking there must be a door open there and the door open there did you know how many routes of escape there were available to residents in the Nile when you have those thoughts you die so in terms of your thoughts we all

02:21:37 die so in terms of your thoughts we all these people need to get out that was that in terms of what method you would apply to get everybody out do you have any idea about what method that would be

02:21:48 any idea about what method that would be how would you do it by having more a stronger level of control on the commitment of the BIE crews it has to be more structured and then we'd have to

02:22:01 more structured and then we'd have to just commit this is just in my thought process it was to me we just had I just thought we had to get them out right now vocalize that okay so you then say in the next paragraph I went to the command

02:22:13 the next paragraph I went to the command unit and I booked myself in a senior fire safety officer and you you say three lines on the fire safety officer looks up means of escape and advises the

02:22:25 looks up means of escape and advises the incident commander of ways to assist assist the situation such as automated vents and the smoke system however I knew there would be far more urgent tasks to be done I spoke to the incident

02:22:36 tasks to be done I spoke to the incident commander

02:22:37 commander Welch and he started to brief me and I asked what he needed me to do did that was there ever a time when you did look and the means of escape and advise the

02:22:49 and the means of escape and advise the incident commander of ways to assist the situation as you put it not not at that time I didn't when I presented myself to

02:23:04 time I didn't when I presented myself to Richard Welch I believed to be innocent of honor at a time upsetting myself is which I do know Richard Belcher said five gov I'm here as fire safety but

02:23:16 five gov I'm here as fire safety but what drew me to do and he saw it took three seconds to sort compute and then he just said that he wants me to deal with the fought take over for saliva garden so ok just came back a little bit

02:23:28 garden so ok just came back a little bit you say the beginning of that paragraph I went to the command unit and put myself in as far Safety Officer do you remember what the command unit was was

02:23:39 remember what the command unit was was it a CEO or was it the illogic command pump at the time it was just say you do you member which number it was and thank you okay so it wasn't just to be clear

02:23:51 you okay so it wasn't just to be clear it wasn't g27 one the North Kensington I was it was definitely margin and I write and is it normal that the first seen the the senior fire safety officer reports

02:24:03 the senior fire safety officer reports directly to the incident commander yes okay and are you familiar with the policy requirements of on a fire safety officer to advise the incident commander

02:24:16 officer to advise the incident commander what facilities may be in the building and whether those facilities may assist with operations committed are you familiar with the house I am familiar with that okay and you just thought you

02:24:30 with that okay and you just thought you told me what you did know about the facilities at groennfell tower did you did you learn later about what they were during the night no I did try to get

02:24:42 during the night no I did try to get plans for the building and to see if there was any on our our day system but that wasn't about right this has followed that up you did try to get plans who did you try

02:24:54 you did try to get plans who did you try to how did you try to get those plans so we tried to get I'll try to get plans I believe I are somebody to go to the tower to see if there was a girder box that may have the plans on there the

02:25:05 that may have the plans on there the girder box it's a delicate but she says his information box predators information box show mr. operates with a girder key but there wasn't one there and then I asked one of the command unit

02:25:17 and then I asked one of the command unit staff to check on the OID to see if we had any plans where he was trying to do the fast one guide us to see if we could work out where the flats were and the result of that says look at the ORD was

02:25:30 result of that says look at the ORD was what the feedback I got back was there it wasn't updated with any floor plans and I believe it also said that the

02:25:42 and I believe it also said that the building was only 20 floors high as well who did you ask to look at the operational risk database the air art it was run at command unit staff I think it might have been tiny Peckham right and

02:25:56 might have been tiny Peckham right and did you see him examine the Ord or did he just tell you what he'd found he just told me right and he what he told you is

02:26:07 told me right and he what he told you is that what you've just told us yes right and what did you think about that when he told you that the Ord didn't have any plans and wasn't updated I was a bit

02:26:21 plans and wasn't updated I was a bit guided because I thought we could use the information but it was something that I was familiar with on other premises right so there's a lot of information that goes on there and there

02:26:32 information that goes on there and there isn't really probably a lot of to be honest it probably isn't a lot training on how to do it in a succinct and best practice why was the aquas to the best of your recollection was the information

02:26:44 of your recollection was the information that was on the ORD helpful at all on the night of the gravel town fire not from not from what I want it's where I wanted the plans of the building it was

02:26:55 wanted the plans of the building it was just a comment that Tyra said that it was a which I'm sure was time just so I can get a basic idea of this I mean how how basic it is it starts again of the

02:27:09 how basic it is it starts again of the plat plans to a building is that really the basic building blocks of a fire safety officers information about a building for fire safety officer yes yeah if you attend an incident as a fire

02:27:21 yeah if you attend an incident as a fire safety officer one of the first things you'll do is try and find plans for the building and then try to find if they've got any automated systems for smoke extracts and or sprinklers so I find it

02:27:32 extracts and or sprinklers so I find it whether to shrink your main valve is any communications going throughout the premises but those were sort of your basic things that you would try and get straight away right thank you

02:27:44 straight away right thank you and how difficult is it to proceed with amassing information about a building in the course of an incident now is it if

02:27:55 the course of an incident now is it if you don't have the plans how difficult does it make it it really does depend on the building to be honest a block of flats is a block of flats so once you

02:28:07 flats is a block of flats so once you can identify where the dry rise or is or the wet riser is and then the lifts you know the crews have already been in there it's a nice to have later on the plains where you know you might get to

02:28:18 plains where you know you might get to innocence and you might be able to work out where the if there's two corridors for example you can work out where the flats are in this situation what I believe it was yes central core anyway did there come a

02:28:33 yes central core anyway did there come a time when you became aware that there was supposed to be an automated smoke vent system yes sir well sure you knew that did you I need when I went into the tower right okay and what about the fact that there

02:28:45 okay and what about the fact that there were no sprinklers when did you find that out when I was it when I was in town forever yeah and what about the fact that there was only a single staircase once I went

02:28:58 was only a single staircase once I went into the tower when I found out what did you think about the fact that there was there were no sprinklers and only a single staircase speak no sprinklers in

02:29:09 single staircase speak no sprinklers in a block of flats is quite common and even though even though they're pushing for it it's still quite common we've got the single staircase similar thing the only the only thing that had meant to me

02:29:21 only the only thing that had meant to me was that to get people out and to get fire crews up he's gonna you know be a lot harder and a lot more difficult than you know if we had two staircases when

02:29:36 you know if we had two staircases when you just going back to your statement when you went to the Indy command unit and booked in you say then spoke to Welch and he started to brief you and he

02:29:47 Welch and he started to brief you and he told you you we see this at the top of page three said I want to you'd sorry I want you to take charge of the first survival guidance calls and then you say

02:29:58 survival guidance calls and then you say I asked for the details of what we had already had and spoke to watch manager Norman Harrison who was one of the command unit staff he was writing what information they had up on the board he started to brief me about which

02:30:09 started to brief me about which residents they knew and what floors they were on now you had you've had this conversation with him did you ask but first of all did you share with group

02:30:21 first of all did you share with group manager well for your view that there were that the building should be evacuated as you've told us not that stage I didn't is there a reason why you didn't because

02:30:33 didn't because because at the moment with my role is to to go there he's given me 5/5 of guidance I'm gonna make an assumption

02:30:46 guidance I'm gonna make an assumption that you know the officer-in-charge have got this on in control right they would have considered it already just came

02:31:00 have considered it already just came back though to the bottom of page 2 of your statement you you say that three lines down the fire safety officer looks at means of escape and advises the

02:31:11 at means of escape and advises the incident commander of ways to asset the sister situation yeah he'd given you a the class survival guidance task job to do did you not think will you all follow

02:31:42 do did you not think will you all follow the ushers and others who'll guide you out

02:31:49 no talking about your attention

02:32:05 you