Crew Manager Christopher Seccafico's testimony about early response operations at Grenfell Tower. Critical evidence on training gaps, fire lift failures, entry obstacles with electronic fob locks, and lack of awareness of external fire spread risks prior to the incident. Seccafico was among the first crews to arrive and establish the bridgehead on the second floor.
00:04:27 well get mr. Hanlon back straightaway yes mr. chairman if we can thank you
00:04:53 all right mr. Allen maybe set yourself down and then straighten only mr. minute yes mr. Hanlon thank you for coming back and didn't intend to to keep you there
00:05:04 and didn't intend to to keep you there for much longer can I ask you to look please at your statement at page 8 and look at halfway down the page where you say once we had cleared the boards do
00:05:15 say once we had cleared the boards do you see that yes once we cleared the board's we left them it was now a little less cluttered in the lobby as they were only working off one board so did you get back down to the lobby after we cleared the palm
00:05:27 the lobby after we cleared the palm trees after you played the boards what were the conditions like down there at that time do you remember and what was
00:05:40 that time do you remember and what was happening in the lobby at that time it just seemed to be a congregation of BA whereas if that's where everyone was coming in right did you see anybody in
00:05:51 coming in right did you see anybody in the lobby
00:05:55 recording information that FSG information in any way no I remember I know they were but I don't know whether they were at that point but not that I
00:06:07 they were at that point but not that I remember
00:06:08 remember okay well we'll come back to it very shortly you then at the bottom of page 8 describe two casualties coming into the
00:06:19 describe two casualties coming into the lobby and you think a mom and a young girl you say Nick Barton took either the mom on her young girl at the front entrance talk to the LA s and crew
00:06:31 entrance talk to the LA s and crew manager back should BATTLE door from Fulham took the other person my question is did you see where they went at the main entrance after that no did you find
00:06:42 main entrance after that no did you find out what happened to the casualties I believe they took them to the Elias right you don't know not know okay then if you go to the top of page 9
00:06:54 okay then if you go to the top of page 9 you say after explaining or describing the burst hose you say I dumped my set on north Kensington's machine that was part of a front and you heard they
00:07:08 part of a front and you heard they needed another entrance you say to get in and you say just picking it up at the
00:07:19 in and you say just picking it up at the end of these second line you say I heard over the radio that they are looking for another way to get out of the building because they couldn't use the front entrance anymore did you you say I heard over the radios
00:07:32 did you you say I heard over the radios it was your radio functioning at that point thinking about that I don't know if I heard it or I saw fire fire project was doing that right but I'm trying to
00:07:44 was doing that right but I'm trying to get an idea of is how well your fire ground radio was working at that time I have no recollection whether it was working or not to be honest because when
00:07:55 working or not to be honest because when you say I heard over the radio yeah hundred percent say whether I heard that or I saw him from the inside on a breakout right then halfway down page
00:08:08 breakout right then halfway down page nine you say you were joined by firefighter Wayne arch have you been on the pump with me that night we noticed somebody has jumped somebody had jumped and landed on the playground I had seen a blur heard a thud it was going so fast
00:08:21 a blur heard a thud it was going so fast I knew it wasn't a piece of debris he landed about around ten meters from me just his side of the playground I turned around the salt it was just to ask you
00:08:32 around the salt it was just to ask you about that were you with firefighter Archer at that time I places where exactly were you standing
00:08:42 rough guessing between the building and the start of the playground on the west side of the tower and how far north or
00:08:54 side of the tower and how far north or south do you know I'd say near the South definitely nearer the south side than the north side and how long was it roughly since you left the bridgehead
00:09:05 roughly since you left the bridgehead that you saw that happen if I was roughly and I took us a long time to break in I could only guess half an hour
00:09:22 break in I could only guess half an hour less complete stab in the dark sure
00:09:31 and then on page 10 we must go to that in the middle or rather the yeah the the top of the page of the first paragraph in facts
00:09:42 the page of the first paragraph in facts where where we start I think so we went back into the building through the hole we'd made in the surgery the internal door had been put through from the surgery to the lobby and it was now the
00:09:54 surgery to the lobby and it was now the main way we were going to be getting people in and out in and taking people out so just in summary in summary you'd created a new from front end or main entrance to the lobby had you using
00:10:06 entrance to the lobby had you using breaking through the hole in the west wall it was there was a slatted vent of your own that were broken out and then somebody put through the door from the lobby into the surgery so there was a
00:10:18 lobby into the surgery so there was a way out now to the right west side of there and where did the slatted vent once you've taken them out of the west wall bring you out onto if you came if you're coming out of the building
00:10:29 you're coming out of the building through that hole that had been left by removing this matted fence where would that bring you about two opposite the playground but near in the south side than the north side of the building
00:10:48 and
00:10:54 in the second paragraph on page ten you say in the fourth line the bridgehead must have been moved down to the ground floor as well because all ba crews were
00:11:07 floor as well because all ba crews were lining up inside with the EDB a whereas queuing up inside the surgery now we have a time rough time for the bringing of the bridgehead down to the ground floor of about Oh 3 o 8 a.m. does that
00:11:21 floor of about Oh 3 o 8 a.m. does that trigger a recollection in terms of time for you
00:11:24 for you ok would that seem about right or my eye as you say was a bonus
00:11:31 sorry okay did you did you know who was in charge of the bridgehead at this point when it had been moved down to the
00:11:42 point when it had been moved down to the ground floor on you you came came in as far as I knew I was watch manage o Keeffe yeah as far as I know I didn't
00:11:54 Keeffe yeah as far as I know I didn't pay attention to who was in charge but he was the last person that I knew was in charge right did you see O'Keefe on the bridgehead and that tiny say on the ground floor yeah you know you don't
00:12:05 ground floor yeah you know you don't know who else was with him no I've said in my statement you did yeah okay and
00:12:16 in my statement you did yeah okay and then at the bottom of page 10 you say we were asking the conscious casualties what flat they were from is there anyone else in there we were then shouting this
00:12:27 else in there we were then shouting this information to Glyn Williams the watch manager from Fulham and he was writing this information on the wall by the front entrance
00:12:39 say we're about the best of your recollection was mr. Williams standing when he was doing that writing if you
00:12:50 when he was doing that writing if you were to walk in the front the the original entrance on that wall to the left before you got to the entrance in the surgery I see and how far when you
00:13:03 the surgery I see and how far when you saw him doing that was he from the bridgehead entry sorry the EBA entry control all the bridgehead control whichever you like I think when the bridge hip was up on the mezzanine
00:13:15 bridge hip was up on the mezzanine vaguely remember it being up there then it was 20 foot away and then when it moved down to the the bottom of the
00:13:26 moved down to the the bottom of the staircase in the the glass entry they were probably five meters away right
00:13:44 and what was what sort of information was mr. Williams writing on up on the walls you remember no he was writing the
00:13:56 walls you remember no he was writing the information that we shouted at him but I believe himself watch manager Watson and watch manager O'Keefe we're dealing with them fire survival guidance right and
00:14:09 them fire survival guidance right and can you give us an idea of the kind of information that he was writing up from myself now I've just given it we were honest he was writing out you were shouting but what was he writing what flat what floor how many people will so
00:14:20 flat what floor how many people will so anyone left right now can I just show you a photograph to see if it and see if you can help help with it if you could please be shown de G 1 which is met
00:14:34 please be shown de G 1 which is met triple 0 1 5 6 4 2 I just want to see whether what I'm about to show you is the kind of thing that you say you saw mr. Glen Williams recording on the wall
00:14:46 mr. Glen Williams recording on the wall that's a photograph in fact taken by Daniel Egan a previous witness and taking it I think an earlier time in the
00:14:57 taking it I think an earlier time in the in the evening and I say earlier time in the evening we're not exactly sure when but at an earlier stage of evening than the time we think the bridge head was moved down to the ground floor we're
00:15:10 moved down to the ground floor we're just trying to explore this just looking at that picture is that isn't that kind of thing familiar to you no I when I said I was shouting I thought it wasn't
00:15:21 said I was shouting I thought it wasn't going over to him and looking at the wall I was going straight out the surgery door so as I was passing him I was shouting the information to him I didn't I don't believe that I ever went up to the wall and looked at them all
00:15:32 up to the wall and looked at them all right did you see the wall and what he was writing on the wall at any stage but I'd never paid any attention to what he was right right ok and looking at the
00:15:43 was right right ok and looking at the kinds of information we see recorded on that picture so I just press this a little bit you can see floor and flat and other information was that the kind of information that you were giving from Glen Williams when he was shouting at
00:15:56 Glen Williams when he was shouting at it hurt him definitely understand God you asking me to interpret that no no
00:16:07 you asking me to interpret that no no I'm asking you whether or not that was the kind of information floor flat positions not conditions just occupants right and you were getting that
00:16:21 right and you were getting that information from people coming down the tower ways right were you getting that kind of information for anywhere else no okay
00:16:37 and had anybody asked you to collate the information in that way or was it just something you know which is on the stone remember yourselves the best thing to do okay and who else was helping you in that effort
00:16:48 that effort it was firefighter our charge and five watts Broderick fell 33 Kensington right there's a Broderick and abroad during a stay Padre
00:16:59 stay Padre yes can see the one without the e broad ring hey someone from Kensington Roger right right and how long were you doing that for do
00:17:10 and how long were you doing that for do you think shouting so it seemed like a hours but right
00:17:25 just a few
00:17:28 final questions you say at the foot of page 12 if I can just show you that
00:17:36 after the reference to Danny cotton walking into the lobby you say apparently radio communications were difficult but I didn't need to use the radio you say when you say apparently radio communications are difficult did
00:17:51 radio communications are difficult did anybody tell you that radio commenced on the rumored I'd heard that because there was so much radio communication on our radio it's very hard for one person to
00:18:03 radio it's very hard for one person to finish a sentence before somebody else cuts in yes yes so I believe those are the problems so you believe those were problems did anybody tell you not so
00:18:15 problems did anybody tell you not so specifically I just know there was radio communication problems yeah where did you learn that from just some general chitchat with general Raja okay hmm you also say I couldn't tell
00:18:32 okay hmm you also say I couldn't tell you what the specific problems were I also believe there was a firefighter lift but I don't believe it was working did anybody tell you it wasn't working I
00:18:42 couldn't say a hundred percent that when we went in initially I was told but I learned later they wasn't working you know later who did you learn that from
00:18:53 know later who did you learn that from again general kind of talk about the insulin
00:19:00 you can't you say that you you call it a firefighter lift did you know yourself at the time what features the lift lifts at groennfell
00:19:11 features the lift lifts at groennfell tower had for firefighting
00:19:20 and mr. o'hanlan thank you very much I have no further questions for you mr. Chairman I have made there further questions I didn't know whether there may be one or two others I told you you need to take a moment I think they may be on moments I can see a signal
00:20:34 thank you very much mr. Friedman oh no I've got any further questions yeah well I am got any questions so mr. Halloran it just remains me to thank you very much indeed for coming to keep more evidence and it will be very useful to
00:20:46 evidence and it will be very useful to us thank you thank you for coming but you go to the ocean [Music]
00:20:59 and I think we need a moment for reorganization before the next witness is that right yes mr. Chen perhaps five minutes
00:21:07 minutes yes no more than five minutes us all right now and then for five minutes we can get it done thank you
00:25:12 [Music]
00:25:43 [Music]
00:26:12 you
00:27:07 yes just a minute
00:27:13 yes thank you
00:27:51 yes I do so Monique sincerely and truly I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm
00:28:04 declare and affirm declare and affirm I shall give the evidence I shall give shall be the truth she'll be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth nothing but the truth thank you very much good afternoon mr.
00:28:15 thank you very much good afternoon mr. secret knife you prefer to give our evidence standing of air yes well if at any stage you change your mind just indicate it'll be fun okay thank you have some stability mr. secret good
00:28:26 have some stability mr. secret good afternoon okay can I just say first of all thank you very much for coming here to give evidence to assist the inquiry in its investigations we do very much appreciative this is a very great
00:28:37 appreciative this is a very great assistance to us okay my questions are intended to be short and simple sometimes they don't turn out that way if you have any difficulty understanding my question or or don't hear it properly
00:28:49 my question or or don't hear it properly please just say and I'll put it a different way or speak louder okay if you need a break at any stage then just just indicate and we can have a break
00:29:00 just indicate and we can have a break okay will probably break before or in one hour we look for a convenient point around 3:15 or 20 315 315 that's right
00:29:11 around 3:15 or 20 315 315 that's right that's 50 minutes from now so thank you so it sounds like a long time but I hope it's not too bad can I just ask you first of all to give us your full name at Christopher Martin secret okay and you've done a statement
00:29:24 secret okay and you've done a statement in the bundle in front of you which is a little blue file there should be a written version of your statement at AB 9a dated the 6th of February 2018 and we
00:29:40 9a dated the 6th of February 2018 and we also have it up on the screen if you prefer to use it in the written version a printed version we can do that but normally we've been working from what's on the screen on your right on the desk or or up on the wall okay
00:29:53 on the desk or or up on the wall okay the met reference to that is any T triple zero one zero one zero five and with that is your contemporaneous notes of CMS one which is M et quadruple zero
00:30:08 of CMS one which is M et quadruple zero five three eight four which is a tab nine B of your file and then you've also got three other exhibits CMS two three and three again what is illegible one is
00:30:21 and three again what is illegible one is clear but they're both different documents there but there are M et triple zero one three zero eight six one three zero eight five and one five six four six the reason I go to that
00:30:33 four six the reason I go to that rigmarole is to say that they're publicly on the record that people can find them if they want to see them okay can I ask you about your statement first of all have you read it recently yes I have and can you please confirm for us
00:30:44 have and can you please confirm for us that its contents are true they they the contents what I believe to be true at the time of making a statement yes and have you discussed your statement or your evidence with anybody before coming
00:30:55 your evidence with anybody before coming here today no okay now I got to start with a few questions about your your position in the NFB yeah is it right you joined the lfb in February 2001 that's correct then you've
00:31:08 February 2001 that's correct then you've been an active firefighter since then have a scratch yes and prior to that you were I think a firefighter in Buckingham that's correct so how long were you a firefighter in Buckingham for Arjuna joins became chair fire risk in the
00:31:20 joins became chair fire risk in the eighth for G 1999
00:31:25 and I think you're presently a crew manager at North Kensington or at least you were when you did your statement yes I still AM you still and was that your position on the night of the 13th 14th
00:31:36 position on the night of the 13th 14th of June 2017 yes it was and is it right you'd only been at North Kensington for a few months before grenfell tower that's correct I joined the watch in
00:31:48 that's correct I joined the watch in North Kensington in February of that year yes and before that I think you tell us you were at Willesden and before that sorry and then at Twickenham yes I was a firefighter at Wilston and then I
00:31:59 was a firefighter at Wilston and then I got promoted to Acton and then from acts and I went to Twickenham and then from tweaking them to North Kensington right and at North Kensington which watch were you on I've always been on the right of
00:32:10 you on I've always been on the right of Auslan red and on page one of your statement of the second paragraph you you say I have now been a cm for nearly
00:32:21 you say I have now been a cm for nearly three years and I'm considered competent just in terms of cm training is there a particular training you have to go through to be a crew manager yes so
00:32:32 through to be a crew manager yes so initially when you promoted you put onto what's called a limb course leader leadership incident management course which for me was two days at Bristol
00:32:44 which for me was two days at Bristol training venue and in those two days you'll put through your paces running various incidents as a crew manager and as a watch manager and you're you're
00:32:55 as a watch manager and you're you're assessed while you do those incidents if you pass the course successfully which I did you then post it to your station I was posted to act in red watch then you undertake training on your watch which
00:33:10 undertake training on your watch which is evidence gathering exercise so duties that I carry out I make evidence lots of that and once I've got enough evidence to satisfy the development log and it's
00:33:22 to satisfy the development log and it's signed off by my watch manager and then it's overseen by my station manager then get sent off for verification an independent review board within the brigade and once everyone's happy Ben is
00:33:34 brigade and once everyone's happy Ben is signed off on then deemed as a competent crew manager right and how does your role did your role as crew manager
00:33:45 role did your role as crew manager relates to or interlink with Mike Darden's role branch manager so I'm the level below Mike doubt and might damage the watch manager
00:33:56 the watch manager so a typical incident Mike will be running the incident he laughs overall command and I miss the number two if you like right so I'm high ranking the firefighters but I'm one below Mike so
00:34:08 firefighters but I'm one below Mike so I'm kind of the intermediate between Mike and the firefighters on the watch okay and what'd he give you instructions or would you work on the basis of what of your own initiative and Jedi times
00:34:21 of your own initiative and Jedi times but sometimes he'll give me specific instructions of things he wants done a lot of the time I'll know what needs to be done just through experience I guess
00:34:33 be done just through experience I guess and he would just intervene if he sees a problem if he'd like things done a run another way but it's not a case of every task we go to deal I have to wait for him to tell me what to do a lot of the
00:34:44 him to tell me what to do a lot of the time you get on with it and he intervenes if he wants something done a different way and what are the crew managers particular responsibilities at an incident so you're typically that
00:35:00 an incident so you're typically that same Mike will be in charge of that overall incident and I'll be in charge of the sort of smaller scenes of operation so if I put it into a different context right traffic
00:35:11 different context right traffic collision typically I'll be standing in front of the vehicle and I'll be keeping a close eye on the firefighter Mike will be stood back overseeing the whole incident and I feed back to him otherwise he'll be community trying to
00:35:23 otherwise he'll be community trying to communicate with all ten different people at once so just the point of the crew managers it's a level of safety within the rank structure and it cuts down the lines of communication for the in charge right turning to high-rise
00:35:35 in charge right turning to high-rise firefighting mm-hmm and to repeat the question what particular responsibilities would a crew manager have at a highlight at a high-rise incident it it depends on the incident
00:35:50 incident it it depends on the incident how it's progressing but typically on a if there is ever one a standard high-rise into the watch manager would be in the instant commander and the career manager would be in charge of the bridgehead that would be a typical
00:36:02 bridgehead that would be a typical scenario spitefully now continuing on the theme of high-rise firefighting and what high-rise fire fighter fighting training did you get in your initial
00:36:13 training did you get in your initial training in my say as some might take you back a bit for yeah no so in what in my initial training when I joined the London Fire had at that time we went to
00:36:25 London Fire had at that time we went to Morton in the mask college and we done an exercise in a high-rise building it houses a firefighter when I got promoted to a crew manager there was we didn't do
00:36:36 to a crew manager there was we didn't do a high-rise exercise right okay and that was at a time when you were at the London Fire Brigade yes have you received high-rise training
00:36:49 have you received high-rise training based on a London Fire Brigade policy 633 yes so as part of our what we call core skills training and we trained on a range of subjects and high-rise training is within that so it will make most a
00:37:04 is within that so it will make most a time it will be theoretical based lectures and going over procedures and what's expected to be done other times it could be I've done training exercise
00:37:16 it could be I've done training exercise in the drove tower where we sort of simulate a high-rise incident yeah that's the main sort of training and what Annie went at North Kensington for
00:37:29 what Annie went at North Kensington for very long before the Granville tower fire but which did did you receive any any drill training on high-rise fire fighting while you were at North Kensington's my Stephanie we've done
00:37:40 Kensington's my Stephanie we've done quite a lot of Theory training on it brother specifically remember doing that I can't remember from dinner practical exercises or not did you receive any refresher training in high-rise fire
00:37:51 refresher training in high-rise fire fighting in the didn't what but what was your most recent or when was your most recent high-rise training prior to the
00:38:02 recent high-rise training prior to the Grenfell tower in June 2007 time as a watch so my team that I work with we've done quite a lot of high-rise training and leading up to Grenfell and purely
00:38:15 and leading up to Grenfell and purely because we did 10 you've you've heard about it from other witness stones we'd attended a fire at Redick tower and a month or two before Grenfell and because of that incident we'd had we've done a
00:38:26 of that incident we'd had we've done a lot of high-rise training on the watch yeah following that incident yes you you speak of - Alex Aaron you're in your witness stand on the first page yeah and you say in the seventh line up from the
00:38:38 you say in the seventh line up from the bottom sixth line up there was an incident at Relic Tower and since this we have undertaken a lot of high-rise training at North Kensington fire station mm-hmm this is a hot topic for us
00:38:52 now Trellick tower was like you tell me we first of all will you actually turn Thomas after your first appliance on today can you give us the date I can't sorry I think April 2017 is the month
00:39:03 sorry I think April 2017 is the month would that be right yeah that's okay so in the period April to June 2017 did you do
00:39:10 do high-rise training at North Kensington yes right and you say it was a hot topic for you why was that and because the fire trailer tower gave us challenges
00:39:22 fire trailer tower gave us challenges that we didn't anticipate and it it also put me in a situation that I was unfamiliar with in the sense that and when I got called on to the answer is
00:39:34 when I got called on to the answer is it's it's how a block of and 30 floors on fire was on the 27 and I turned up with just a single crew and one pumping appliance in a textbook scenario you'd
00:39:45 appliance in a textbook scenario you'd have to fire appliances pull up together everyone gets dicks and they do their jobs when I turned up to that I was on my own with my crew and that that put me in a position that I hadn't anticipated
00:39:57 in a position that I hadn't anticipated being so it opened my eyes into how things can go and that creates a lot of talking points and running free solve different scenarios in a training environment after the incident right I'm
00:40:11 environment after the incident right I'm sorry to ask you this to follow up on that answer yeah you say that at relict our the initial attendance was just one appliance know that there was more appliances ordered on right I was at
00:40:22 appliances ordered on right I was at North Kensington at the time with my crew at the station and it's a two minute drive if that from the station right so we got there first and the other appliances were coming on after us there was other appliances on
00:40:34 after us there was other appliances on it but I was in a situation where I was there dealing with it we're just a crew but I think free myself those four of us the answer say it so what particular lessons or takeaway did you learn from
00:40:48 lessons or takeaway did you learn from your experience of derelict things always don't go as they're written down in the policy the policy is it's a it's what we do them it's what we're trained
00:40:59 what we do them it's what we're trained to is what we should stick to but it's written in a perfect world and it showed me that things aren't always perfect and we have to adapt and what was it about the Trellick tower incident that you
00:41:12 the Trellick tower incident that you learned and departed from policy that it meant that you had to depart from policy yeah the fact that I needed to be in about three or four different places at once
00:41:19 once I needed to be speaking to the concierge I needed to be getting to the plans all needed to be securing the fire lift I needed to be detailing the crews and it all needed doing and I was on my own
00:41:30 all needed doing and I was on my own trying to do everything you know but you you can't you just do the best you can do did you succeed in getting the plans I didn't actually know it is the key got
00:41:41 I didn't actually know it is the key got stuck in the box so I gave up the plans were retrieved later and but at that time and yeah I had to abandon it because I was wasting too much time on
00:41:52 because I was wasting too much time on one task I left that but they did they did someone freed the key off later on okay and since the Trellick tower incident has the high-rise training
00:42:03 incident has the high-rise training changed in any particular way so as to reinforce or educate the fighters about the lessons learnt at relic tower not specifically trailer tower there was the
00:42:17 specifically trailer tower there was the policies reviewed in July after the cram coincidently add amendments to the policy but nothing came out he then at the bottom of the page a
00:42:29 he then at the bottom of the page a lineup say we also complete practical training on buildings under construction does under construction include under refurbishment yes of what I'm referring
00:42:41 refurbishment yes of what I'm referring to there was when I was at Acton and there was a twelve twelve appliance high-rise drill organized in it was it
00:42:53 high-rise drill organized in it was it was a high-rise block that had been I think it's going to be demolished all the residents have been taken out this is just a shell of a building and my watch manager at the time planned to
00:43:05 watch manager at the time planned to twelve pump exercise there and they've done a training exercise but unfortunately I missed it so when I'm talking there I'm talking in general terms but but yeah I was sent out on a standby that day so I missed the
00:43:16 standby that day so I missed the exercise right and then you go on to say this tends to be more about the insulation catching a light and not specifically about cladding what do you mean by insulation catching so there I'm referring to that that I think at the
00:43:30 referring to that that I think at the time and so they were asking what kind of train is we had on different types of high-rise buildings apart from the standard high-rise there's policy six three three high-rise fire fights in the only other train that differs from that
00:43:42 only other train that differs from that is buildings under construction and typically and fire spreading those buildings can be rapid because they're exposed to the elements so that's what I'm referring to there
00:44:01 what do you say sorry to press you little but in your insulation what's the insulation so typically in a timber frame building that's under construction
00:44:12 frame building that's under construction when they're at their most vulnerable to catch fire is before the outside shell has been put on it onto it so it'll be as I say it timber frame and they'll be
00:44:23 as I say it timber frame and they'll be insulation panels within the timber frame at Celotex insulation sheets right if they catch fire the spire of fire spreads very rapid because of the wind and they're basically exposed to the
00:44:34 and they're basically exposed to the elements of the fire consume you know as a bonfire but it will spread as quick as the wind will take it so there's there is training on buildings under construction and you mentioned exposed
00:44:47 construction and you mentioned exposed cladding or installation like Celotex being rendered Catching Fire is that is that well known in the London Fire
00:45:00 that well known in the London Fire Brigade that the insulation such as Celotex is prone to catching fire and promoting fire spread I wouldn't say it's well known it's not a common
00:45:11 it's well known it's not a common occurrence but it does happen you mentioned Celotex why do you mention that and that's just the phrase I put the panel in insulation it could be made
00:45:22 the panel in insulation it could be made by other manufacturers but that's just my own that's what I called it and I know what the correct industry term for it is
00:45:34 you get training you say for what happens when insolation catches the light
00:45:43 light what is that what does that training involves oh it's not training on specifically what happens when it catches a light it's training on a building under construction and so it's more about being prepared for rapid fire
00:45:55 more about being prepared for rapid fire spread doesn't focus specifically on what would happen if the insulation caught fire okay but if the insulation as you've described it caught fire on it
00:46:06 as you've described it caught fire on it which was on the exterior of the building because it hadn't yet had the the wrapping attached to it mm-hmm applied to it did you have training into how to tackle the spread of fire on that exterior
00:46:26 our camera of their specific training on how to deal with the actual there probably is bike on Iran but move okay
00:46:40 but nonetheless just to perhaps repeat a question would you say that it was well known in in the London Fire Brigade that fire on exposed exposed insulation
00:46:54 fire on exposed exposed insulation forming part of the exterior of a building doesn't strike specifically on the insulation that the the the risk is put down to buildings under construction and that falls within it and yeah but as
00:47:08 and that falls within it and yeah but as part of that risk the risk of buildings under construction is what you're saying that the the the cladding insulation
00:47:21 that the the the cladding insulation covering a building it's something which promotes rapid fire spread and that's a risk that you have to learn to deal with when learning to deal with buildings under construction yeah I mean we
00:47:32 under construction yeah I mean we learned that the hard way on the night of the fire - yeah but understand that entirely but before the night was that learning present not to your knowledge right now
00:47:52 in a similar theme did your training ever cover how to deal with the risk of fire spread on the exterior of a building have you ever heard of a fire
00:48:05 building have you ever heard of a fire at shepherds Court yes I heard of it I was on duty but didn't attend dogs at Twickenham at the time that's quite distant from Hammersmith where the fire was do you know of whether there were
00:48:17 was do you know of whether there were lessons learnt from fire shepherds caught that were filtered down to operational crews and I don't specifically know of any lessons learned
00:48:28 specifically know of any lessons learned but like any industry there's talk amongst the workforce when incidents like that happen and everyone was fully aware that the exterior quarter light
00:48:39 aware that the exterior quarter light and it spread upwards so quite a rapid rate I don't from memory there was no specific training package that came out after that to train us on it but I was aware at the same time what happened and
00:48:51 aware at the same time what happened and you know so talk amongst the workforce yeah
00:48:55 yeah can you be a bit more specific we were privy to conversations with your colleagues about about exterior mass production yeah there's definitely conversations about what happened and
00:49:06 conversations about what happened and the rate it's spread upon two jobs being vague upon give me specifics on that but as a you know it's fully aware of what happened and the consequences right you
00:49:20 happened and the consequences right you say you were fully aware of what happened can you just describe in your your own words as best you can what did happen yes and the fire started in it in a flat and it broke out the windows and it quite quickly spread upwards so the
00:49:33 it quite quickly spread upwards so the flames came out the window and caught the flat above that that that caught fire and then it just kept creeping up the building do you know or did you discuss what the cause of the rapid fire
00:49:44 discuss what the cause of the rapid fire spread on the exterior and Shepherd school was
00:49:48 and in terms of workforce discussion what was this what was the lesson or single theme that Shepherds caught told there's more of an awareness they it
00:50:01 there's more of an awareness they it could happen right I'm not saying it wasn't a specific training package that came out it's just sort of discussion you know and was there something specs on so to cut you up no sorry I'm finished it was there something was
00:50:12 finished it was there something was there something about the way where Shepherd's court was constructed that affected the way in which the fire spread that I wouldn't know does your
00:50:24 spread that I wouldn't know does your training cover compartment ation yes and does it specifically cover what a firefighter has to do if compartment ation within a high-rise block fails I
00:50:41 don't think he does now does it cover the stay-put policy does your training cover the staple of policy [Music]
00:50:53 there's reference to in the high-rise policy yes do you ever receive any training on how to assess whether the stapler policy
00:51:04 to assess whether the stapler policy remains a safe policy to retain in the event of failure of compartment ation in a mine that's absolutely not look the word in need something lies a
00:51:15 word in need something lies a consideration of the OIC whether to keep that in place or not but it doesn't go into specifics on what signs to account for and in your experience are there
00:51:27 for and in your experience are there particular signs as to what to look out for which an OIC should keep in mind and
00:51:35 from my experience notes I've never tell that night being at a high-rise incident where we've felt the need that in hang
00:51:46 where we've felt the need that in hang on a minute we need to get everyone out of here so my experience hadn't shown me that night okay
00:51:57 now on page five just picking up on that last answer and taking it a little further you say a third of the way down
00:52:10 further you say a third of the way down the page and afraid it's not easy to navigate but I would call this the second paragraph it's a third of the way
00:52:21 second paragraph it's a third of the way down the page towards the end of the second paragraph you say the and this is later in the evening that the file is traveling on the outside of the building this is something that can happen and I
00:52:35 this is something that can happen and I have seen before fire can spread too flat above the window yeah do you see that this is missing that can have my seat before fire can spread too flat
00:52:47 seat before fire can spread too flat above via the window yeah it sort of asked you about that you say you've seen it before can you be more specific
00:52:58 it before can you be more specific yeah that's not your serious they see the obvious example for that would be and Shepherd's court although I haven't seen it physically myself I was aware
00:53:09 seen it physically myself I was aware that it happened and I was aware that he can happen so I guess when I was saying I've seen it before that's bad word on my part maybe I should I said I'm aware of it right but
00:53:21 should I said I'm aware of it right but am i right in thinking therefore but you never actually attended at a high-rise incident where you've had to tackle a fire with external force and why did so many years ago a block called the oaks
00:53:32 many years ago a block called the oaks in Willesden and we had a fire on the remember how many stories it is now but we had a high-rise incident there and the fire broke out at his side spread
00:53:43 the fire broke out at his side spread into the balcony above the flat that was on fire right so that was a two compartment fire was it
00:53:53 the fire was yes so it breached the Commandant of the flat was on fire and from memory the files contained to the balcony of the flat above it because crews were quite quite to go in there and extinguish that look they have been
00:54:05 and extinguish that look they have been left the assumption would be word escalating progressing to the flag and what was the mechanism of external or exterior fire spread as if he faces the window right okay and how did the fire
00:54:18 window right okay and how did the fire then travel up the exterior of the Oaks well heat rises in so does fire so if a fire breaks out the window this is a strong wind force on that the flames are
00:54:29 strong wind force on that the flames are always gonna Nick upwards was any material on the exterior of that high-rise the oaks in Willesden on fire
00:54:41 high-rise the oaks in Willesden on fire no from memory is the balcony bits on the balcony so sort of pops and started so is this is this what firefighters refer to as the co and yes that's
00:54:52 refer to as the co and yes that's exactly right okay so that's been a fire jumps well you explain to me what is the calendar is so it's when the window fails and the fire will come out the window and again
00:55:03 fire will come out the window and again against the side of the building and then whatever is above it is likely to catch fire be clad in a shepherd's bush beer a balcony at the oaks or whatever
00:55:15 beer a balcony at the oaks or whatever is flammable above it is likely to catch fire and it's it's extinguished before right you said cladding at Shepherds Bush it is it before girl felt that
00:55:27 Bush it is it before girl felt that happened did you know that the Shepherd's caught fire no it's just it's discussions since grenfell that knew that at the time I just knew it spread
00:55:38 that at the time I just knew it spread out sighs sorry to pick you up a moment us not interested in what you say okay now can I then turn to prior visits to Granville tower you say in your statement at page two top of that flavor
00:55:51 statement at page two top of that flavor you can get back to it
00:55:55 you say I've not been on one of those to go and filter as a familiarization visit due to the fact that I'd only been at the station for a few months but it would have come around for me to complete do you know do you happen to
00:56:11 complete do you know do you happen to know when the station last conducted a visit to gran felt our prior to the fire in June 17 I do now I'm very watching
00:56:22 in June 17 I do now I'm very watching the inquiry and that's nine but at the time I didn't feel it okay and you go to the bottom of page two you say four
00:56:36 the bottom of page two you say four lines up from the bottom like that a new ground felt our due to the fact that I'd attended a call two to three weeks previously for a lockout a mum had locked herself out after her son of called to say he'd been assaulted and
00:56:47 called to say he'd been assaulted and someone trying to steal his bike on this incident we've been permitted entry by one of the residents of the electronic door this was the only time I'd been to groennfell tower but i roughly knew the layout yes on that occasion had you
00:57:04 layout yes on that occasion had you yourself tried to gain access to the tower through the electronic door on that occasion we was met by the caller outside of the building and she
00:57:15 outside of the building and she explained to us what had happened and there was people with her friends were other residents who knew her and when we
00:57:26 other residents who knew her and when we asked her to take her up to the flat they they let's him
00:57:33 and did you gain any understanding about how easy it was for a fire crew to access grant felt our in the event of a
00:57:44 access grant felt our in the event of a fire as a result of these electronic doors being in place no I don't think that was down to the fact that we because because when we attended the
00:57:55 because because when we attended the pool waves let's straight in and obviously I'm I'm thinking about the incident and what we need to do and what equipment I think because it wasn't an issue it wasn't something not thought about that makes sense I think had have
00:58:06 about that makes sense I think had have we not been able to get through that door it would have triggered a full process but because the door was open for us and while I'm talking to play we just walked straight for it I didn't give it a second form after that yes
00:58:17 give it a second form after that yes Emily
00:58:18 Emily okay well we'll come back to that theme in a moment I think and I want now to turn with you if I may to the call-out to grab a cell tower on the night yeah now in your statement on page two in the
00:58:34 it's difficult to tell I think it's probably still the first paragraph eight lines will say down from the top you say you started your shift at 8 p.m. and the
00:58:46 you started your shift at 8 p.m. and the the bells went off I'm just trying to pick it up the bells went off at over 50 hours which made a mobilization message came over the speakers announcing an
00:58:57 came over the speakers announcing an emergency call so it's not how it works in North Kensington did this that the speakers go today yeah and what what is there a present a pre-recorded message yeah
00:59:07 yeah so it's a pre-recorded voice and it's the same all fire stations the act the only differ it tells you which appliances have been mobilized okay
00:59:19 appliances have been mobilized okay and then you say that after explaining your normal routine you say just before
00:59:30 your normal routine you say just before the paragraph break I went past the washroom where the teleprinter messages are it also houses the information holders Maps routes to the incident etc yes as I passed I heard someone say there was a fire at Granville tower yeah
00:59:51 can you describe what happens in the watch room when a call comes in yeah so the watch I'm attendant the watchman tender and the drivers of the appliances
01:00:02 tender and the drivers of the appliances will go to the watch room they'll tear off the call slip and each driver will get a copy of that course then they'll have a look here and they'll decide for themselves that they know where they're
01:00:14 themselves that they know where they're going they should also get given a route card which is its magnified snapshot of the the map grid reference that the
01:00:25 the the map grid reference that the incident is on so they should be handed one of those each there's also a large map in there and so if they're if they are unsure or if they want to double-check they can have a look at the
01:00:36 double-check they can have a look at the map I would quick look at the route of how to get there but it would normally just be those three people that go there right not sure you refer to a washroom attendant yeah is that one of the crew
01:00:50 attendant yeah is that one of the crew members or is Ellison yes it's a firefighter that would be detailed that task at roll call at the start of the shift and who was that on the night do not remember okay and you say no
01:01:01 not remember okay and you say no statement you had someone say there was a fire at groennfell town do you remember who that was no so North Kensington they the layout is when you come down the stairs the the
01:01:12 is when you come down the stairs the the watch room door is opposite you and the fire points off to the right so I kind of have to open everybody comes down the stairs has to walk past the watch and to get to the appliances and I was I'd come
01:01:23 get to the appliances and I was I'd come down the stairs I was making weights the plants I just had heard it coming out of the room I don't know who it was that said it was just right in the middle of page two just after the break you say I
01:01:37 page two just after the break you say I got my information sheet tip sheet and on that was the type of incident I was attending the address the time of the call in any operational text mm-hmm that
01:01:49 call in any operational text mm-hmm that tip sheet did so I got my information sheet if she you get it so he was hot Tom Abel who was driving had it I mean hehe it's kind
01:02:01 was driving had it I mean hehe it's kind of standard there's no written down procedure but generally the driver will get in the cab and he'll give it to the officer in charge cos ezel he's finished with it he knows where he's going to or she knows where they're going and yeah
01:02:15 she knows where they're going and yeah that they have normally hand it over to the officer in charge of that clients okay and as each firefighter to get their own tip sheet orders deny let's just it's printed out in triplicate so one stays on the teleprinter role at the
01:02:26 one stays on the teleprinter role at the station and the other two will go veg appliance or multi appliance stations there will be more copies to reflect the number of appliances there's generally one per appliance someone stays at the
01:02:37 one per appliance someone stays at the station and you describe in the next sentence the OP the information that you got on that tip sheet you say the operational text would include whether
01:02:49 operational text would include whether the building was high-rise premises known holders etc I believe the information we had was quite specific in that it stated there was a fire on the fourth floor at groennfell tower do you
01:03:00 fourth floor at groennfell tower do you remember anything else by way of detail from that tip sheet no now you then go on to say that you went to my appliance g27
01:03:11 g27 - which is the pump for North Canton - now just pausing day that's the pump g27 one is the is the pump ladder correct and just very simply could you just tell
01:03:23 and just very simply could you just tell us a distinction in operational terms between the pump and the pump ladder yes the pump ladder will carry the 13.5 me ladder and the pump would carry the non me - leather the pump ladder will have
01:03:35 me - leather the pump ladder will have the highest ranking officer on duty on it and so that night is my dad and here's the watch manager and the pump will have a crew manager
01:03:46 and the pump will have a crew manager right in it and in terms of their ability to communicate and their ability to pump will they be the same or different it's exactly the same appliance righteous the difference is
01:03:58 appliance righteous the difference is the people sitting on it in the ladders pretty much right now on you they go on to say two lines down from the start of that paragraph three quarters of the way down page two on the way I interrogated
01:04:10 down page two on the way I interrogated the appliances mobile data terminal to find out more information on where we were going mm-hmm I remember looking at the location because I recall it was quite tight to get our our plants near the
01:04:22 tight to get our our plants near the tower mm-hmm there was a triangle on the building which indicates it is in an operational risk database entry now just just pausing there did you look at the
01:04:35 just pausing there did you look at the MDT on the way I looked at it I didn't go into the operational risk entry for it like I say I'd only been there once before and so I knew there by our
01:04:48 before and so I knew there by our couldn't remember how to get there or the the particular access for it that something gates at hundreds of call-outs so I just wanted to look at it to
01:04:59 so I just wanted to look at it to refresh myself of where we were going and and when I saw it I remember that the roads were quite tight getting into it and it's just a residential area so we parked cars and stuff and bit especially at nighttime access is always
01:05:11 especially at nighttime access is always more difficult because everyone's at homes all the cars are out in the street and I just always look myself even if the person driving me knows where they're going I always double-check just in case they
01:05:24 I always double-check just in case they forget on way or I just like to know the month myself really where they're going and you you say you were Tara gated the MDT did you look into the operational
01:05:35 MDT did you look into the operational risk database entry for grateful now I didn't I didn't did you remember trying to do that no no I wasn't going to do that on the way and I was more looking at
01:05:46 at where it was the way we were going into it and the hydrants that were there nearby as well can I just see if I can
01:05:58 nearby as well can I just see if I can get a picture of how you would go about interrogating the NDT if you wanted to look at the ORD yeah so it's got its a screen
01:06:06 screen you know same sort of bit smaller than the monitor there it's got different tabs on it you can look at various different things on this occasion I press the map function so from memory
01:06:19 press the map function so from memory when I got to the party have an electronic copy of the call tip shape and that's on there as well an electronic copy so I put it into map function and dog zoomed in on to where
01:06:33 function and dog zoomed in on to where we was going on to the tower side and it brought that up bigger so I could have a look right but you didn't go further to see where hydrants were what the dry rise over I had a look with the hydrants
01:06:44 rise over I had a look with the hydrants were I can't remember where they are now but I remember looking at the time and yeah that's as far as I remember that it's quite it's it's an excellent system
01:06:56 it's quite it's it's an excellent system and it's not so great at looking at when you're on the way to a call purely because you're trying to do you know you're bouncing them in to find you would go quite quick you know you jump
01:07:08 would go quite quick you know you jump in about where you're trying to press the button and you your fingers move in and it and trying to read a screen that's fixed why you saw you know talking to the crews or keeping a lookout for sort you know potential
01:07:20 lookout for sort you know potential accidents there's lots of there's lots going on so from my experience the MDT is better to look at when you there because you give fixing you can have a look and scroll down it's kind of trying
01:07:31 look and scroll down it's kind of trying to read that text where you're driving along in the car it'd be a lot harder than what it stood here now and when you did arrive and they came to a standstill did you have another look at the ayah
01:07:42 did you have another look at the ayah because I knew my watch manager would have done that did he tell you he'd done that
01:07:47 no but I know Mike and I know he would have done he's he's very far did he tell you about the quality of the information that you think he would have found or now that's not that's not that wouldn't
01:07:58 now that's not that's not that wouldn't be a normal discussion at that time now on page three of your statement you described in the second line how you pull up behind the pub ladder that's two
01:08:11 pull up behind the pub ladder that's two seven one and you then say control called up on the radio and said that they were receiving multiple calls I knew from this that we were attending a significant incident because you would normally only get one or two calls the
01:08:25 normally only get one or two calls the radio you were referring to there is at the main scheme radio that's correct okay and without a broadcast itself into the Kabul is yes yeah okay you don't say when you say significant
01:08:37 you don't say when you say significant incident there we've just looked at that can you just explain a little bit more clearly what you mean yeah so and sometimes a call will come in and just
01:08:51 sometimes a call will come in and just one person will make that call that's normal
01:08:56 normal generally if there's visible fire anyone who's around in that area will call the fire service because they're not sure if someone else has done it it's a good example that would be a coral I on a
01:09:09 example that would be a coral I on a high street loads of people pass in our control would probably take 20 or 30 calls so that one isn't because it's got visual to people phone it up so generally when you get more than one
01:09:20 generally when you get more than one call or control board or something so you get multiple calls or phurba calls it's a good indication you've got something rather than it's a false alarm
01:09:31 something rather than it's a false alarm it's a good indication that the hang on there is actually a fire here because more than one person is called in and that's why they pass us that information as well and it's basically a heads-up that you're going to you know a fire
01:09:43 that you're going to you know a fire here is likely to be a false alarm yes and then you say at the beginning of the next paragraph when we arrived see that when we arrived they look I looked up a Grenville Tower and saw a fire
01:09:54 up a Grenville Tower and saw a fire fourth floor yeah just pausing there do remember exactly were G 272 had parked yet just short of we was falling behind goal 47 1 and we parked behind it I
01:10:09 goal 47 1 and we parked behind it I couldn't give you a distance and but we wasn't right behind it there was a bit there's space between us and the yeah we pulled up short of go to 7 1 right
01:10:33 um just help me with this in terms of physical arrival which pump arrived first do you remember the con 47 one
01:10:47 first do you remember the con 47 one pump leather yeah but is pretty much the same time this following each other right you were behind it way yeah okay because I just wanted to clarify the perhaps a minor point if you could just
01:10:58 perhaps a minor point if you could just be shown tap 23 the short incident log and page 8 of that
01:11:10 yes sorry I'm nice that was directed at thee no documents manager and now halfway down the page there you see appliances and it could be
01:11:22 there you see appliances and it could be expanded call sign or see sign station status and then you see g27 - then if you look across the page you can see
01:11:33 you look across the page you can see mobile a 56 52 and that's the status twos I understand it and then on scene Oh 59 24 and two seven one below it is
01:11:46 Oh 59 24 and two seven one below it is on scene at a fifty nine twenty-eight so it looks like four seconds afterwards mm-hmm now you if you just said you were following g27 one it wasn't following you so can you
01:11:59 it wasn't following you so can you explain why the short incident log has g27 to the right as on scene four seconds earlier than g27 one yeah so it could be one of two reasons it could be
01:12:11 could be one of two reasons it could be when you look in we call it status free and that's done on the MDT that we spoke about when we press that sends a notification up to our control center
01:12:22 notification up to our control center and they know that appliance is booked and attended it's logged on the corslet so there's one of two reasons why Golf 272 was in attendance first it's even because I physically press the button
01:12:33 because I physically press the button first I tend to there's no necessary right or wrong to this I tend to do it as we're approaching so when we pull up I can get straight off and go and do it or it could be sometimes there's a delay
01:12:46 or it could be sometimes there's a delay with the technology in your press it and the status change will stay great for a short period of time and when it goes a solid color than its sent and that could be just radio signal as the same with a
01:12:57 be just radio signal as the same with a mobile phone see it could be if I pressed it fast all those just a slight delay with the 10 on the duck Birds for you okay thank you now the next question is
01:13:10 when you are up do you remember you way where you park the appliance in relation to the tower yeah so it was sort of
01:13:24 to the tower yeah so it was sort of southeast corner southeast corner how far away from g27 one were you I can't remember I'd be I'd be getting it okay going on since about
01:13:36 be getting it okay going on since about right and
01:13:51 in terms of but let's just look at your own exhibit we cancellous if we get this could you be showing you your first exhibit which is met triple zero one
01:14:02 exhibit which is met triple zero one three zero eight six good sir which is the map that you've done now can you
01:14:18 the map that you've done now can you just if you can explain to us where g27 to was parked in relation to the tower I think yeah yeah it was roughly where
01:14:30 think yeah yeah it was roughly where that M is roughly where the M is yeah and to 71 was in front of us sort of more in line with the main entrance if that is there so the M is where gt72
01:14:44 that is there so the M is where gt72 yeah and golf tee so it's probably more so that the front of the appliance were from looking at that would be sort more in line with that right dark line that's in front of it I see okay so you're how many yards
01:14:56 I see okay so you're how many yards apart
01:14:59 [Music]
01:15:05 okay not good getting its standard practice that we would always leave enough room to slip the one-three-five lad off if we need to but so it was a nice fencing okay yeah I'd be guessing
01:15:17 nice fencing okay yeah I'd be guessing it I gave me okay did you do you think you had a good view of the east side of the building yes
01:15:32 and which pump was it that had the hose which was set in to the dry rising may I got forty seven one two seven okay
01:15:51 and is that because that's the first one to arrive yeah it was parked closest to the jaw riser yeah yes
01:16:07 now in your statement you say on page three
01:16:14 just after where we left off with it second line down from the first paragraph break up I could not I could clearly see the fire was at the window
01:16:25 clearly see the fire was at the window you say of the flat on the east side and I've not this on the map which we now just put away but I think we know where you mean I could see flames you say
01:16:38 you mean I could see flames you say covering the window now could you see any smoke at that stage no what were your first thoughts about what could
01:16:50 your first thoughts about what could happen to that fire do you remember and my my my first thoughts was that we've got an incident and I just went in to write automatics
01:17:03 and I just went in to write automatics or so on to say the fire was clean looking with orange flames sometimes fires are in very dark black looking smoke and all you can see is a glare of the fire this wasn't what grant thought looked like it was orange flames
01:17:15 thought looked like it was orange flames mm-hmm then you say I do not recall any smoke how what did the fact that it was orange flames and clean-looking look tell you about the way the father's behaving and so it tells me that the
01:17:28 behaving and so it tells me that the fires got ventilation and it's got fresh air going into it sometimes you you might pull up and if the compartments completely sealed the windows be very
01:17:40 completely sealed the windows be very smoke blackened and you might see a an orange glow generally if you see clean flame the smoke is dispersed in somewhere so my initial thought when I
01:17:51 somewhere so my initial thought when I when I saw that well it wasn't my initial thought but if it's a claim if it's clean if you can see clean flame the smokers going somewhere it's got some kind of ventilation I was it be bottling up
01:18:04 ventilation I was it be bottling up okay is that a computer moment for a brain is it convenient ooh yes yes yes well mr. secret will have a short break now
01:18:13 now can I ask you please not to talk to a nun much more evidence for anything to do with it and if we have to break again at the end of the day then you haven't finished same would apply okay so if you
01:18:25 finished same would apply okay so if you go to the air show will resume at 25 past three okay thanks
01:18:37 right 3:25 please
01:21:49 you
01:34:31 mr. millet just two and that you and everybody else the witness is ready to come back yes but I think we should seek to finish the afternoon about four o'clock very well mr. chairman I can understand
01:34:44 very well mr. chairman I can understand why
01:35:05 that mr. secret just so that you know they're going to finish the afternoon at 4 o'clock okay you know in any events okay if at any stage you feel that you
01:35:16 okay if at any stage you feel that you need a break or just need to sit down for a moment that's fine I can't you're just making yeah thank you yes mr. secret just a couple of
01:35:27 you yes mr. secret just a couple of questions arising out of the discussion we were having before the break came back to Trellick tower deep do you remember whether there was any
01:35:39 evacuation partial perhaps evacuation of Trellick tower at the incident you attended no as the discussion that that's no there's no evacuation not now
01:35:50 that's no there's no evacuation not now can't remember so our camera ever in those no backyards thank you for the clarification earlier on in the afternoon you you said that you had never before the incident
01:36:02 that you had never before the incident of Grenfell tower being at a high-rise incident when you felt the need to get everybody out I'm just exploring that answer a little bit and we'll come to it but can I just understand something are you are you
01:36:15 understand something are you are you saying that when you were there at groennfell tower you did feel the need to get everybody out yeah we wanted to
01:36:28 to get everybody out yeah we wanted to get everyone out of that building and that the mass evacuation didn't go through my mind at the time and because we didn't know what was about to unfold in front of us Nick and Bob see yeah we
01:36:40 in front of us Nick and Bob see yeah we wanted everyone out safely from that building right and doing the best you can in general terms and we'll come to the specifics later tomorrow but did there come a time during your attendance
01:36:54 there come a time during your attendance at Granville Tower incident when you you thought yourself we must evacuate everybody in the building
01:37:03 I can't remember having that specific before and because the instant kind of had a progression to it any no okay
01:37:18 had a progression to it any no okay we'll come back to that if we need to can I talk to you about something a little less a little less that's
01:37:29 little less a little less that's difficult
01:37:29 difficult entry into Grenfell tower on the night mm-hmm
01:37:33 mm-hmm and I want to ask you about the first of all about the use of a fob yeah to get in now we've got to look at a number of photographs from the CCTV cameras of you coming in with other other firefighters
01:37:44 coming in with other other firefighters into ground felt tower on the night before I show you this can I just ask you whether you're all right to look at okay okay can we start with CCTV camera number one inquiry document 1:30 which
01:37:55 number one inquiry document 1:30 which is a tab one of our CCTV
01:38:08 and if we look at that we can see on the screen this is a CCTV shot of of a firefighter at zero one zero zero 50 so
01:38:21 firefighter at zero one zero zero 50 so 50 seconds past one o'clock in the morning and can you identify that firefighter this myself with you and you are outside the main entrance I think we can take that is red you I think then go
01:38:34 can take that is red you I think then go to the internal door and that is what perhaps us just look at the next photograph or lets you coming in I think
01:38:45 photograph or lets you coming in I think so I'm telling you that you can you identify that as you yes okay that's you and that's time - Oh 100 50 - and then the next picture we see a firefighter at
01:38:58 the next picture we see a firefighter at the lobby the lift lobby door on the ground floor at groennfell tower can you I I know that the firefighter has his or her back to the camera but do you think
01:39:09 her back to the camera but do you think that that's you you remember do you remember doing that I'm remember doing it and I was the only crew managed the other crew manager breathing our prey is cell and so he must it can only be me but I remember
01:39:21 must it can only be me but I remember doing it as well okay and if you look at the next shot which is tab for this is
01:39:32 the next shot which is tab for this is time - at zero one zero zero 59 you're you're doing something can you just tell us what you think you're doing in that picture um it looks like I'm talking my handheld radio right and what have you
01:39:44 handheld radio right and what have you got in your left hand do you think that's the crocheted the tip shape that we spoke about earlier there's the tip sheet anything else it looks like my lift key
01:39:55 it looks like my lift key lift key yeah it wasn't right that's probably the best we can do before it gets over pixelated faked tip sheet and you think the lift key I think so yeah and where would you have got the lift
01:40:06 and where would you have got the lift key from where did you get it from do you I keep one in my chin ik right is it always in your tunic it is yeah as my role as a and crew manager Mike or the
01:40:19 role as a and crew manager Mike or the watch manager would normally stay outside the building I would normally go into the building to either investigate or start operations and it's quite common to need a an express key so I keep one on myself just because I'm
01:40:33 keep one on myself just because I'm always using it really it's not a personal issue I just write okay and then the next picture tab which is tab 5
01:40:47 which is inq1 3 4 what are you doing there
01:40:55 looking back looking for the main I think all the others the when I was on my handheld radio is saying that the doors loves can someone see if there's a
01:41:06 doors loves can someone see if there's a key fob right and I think I was waiting to see if anyone was getting one okay and then in the next tab which is tab 6 and we have inq1 35 that's that's I think you at the door yeah we can
01:41:19 think you at the door yeah we can recognize you there and who's that on the left coming towards you oh that's my dad and language down and then coming in in front of you holding in the left hand what looks like in every control board
01:41:31 what looks like in every control board and an forward information board if I'm not wrong who's that do you think from memory that's [ __ ] Pattillo right okay and you've got your hand out for something do you know what it is I can't
01:41:45 something do you know what it is I can't remember but I see nah I'm asking Mike if he's got a you managed to get a fob for the interior door okay I might just be explaining what we need
01:41:57 be explaining what we need then in the next picture which is time 201 over 126 it's tap 7 we can see a group of firefighters two in BA and
01:42:10 group of firefighters two in BA and instead of commander in the foreground there and there's a lady look like a lady hmm
01:42:15 lady hmm by the door can you do you remember that we don't actually I don't remember that lady being with me oh but I remember going outside and getting given some
01:42:26 going outside and getting given some keys that had a fob on it and then I went back inside to gain entry but I don't remember the lady being with me okay do you remember how you actually got entry into the lift lobby someone
01:42:39 got entry into the lift lobby someone gave me some keys that had an the electronic club on it which allowed me to operate the electronic lock to gain entry okay do you remember who that was ooh Dave you dick who gave you the
01:42:52 ooh Dave you dick who gave you the electronic fob key to get entry I've got vague memory of someone out the front give me some keys but now I've seen that it's it's made me Derek so I'm
01:43:03 seen that it's it's made me Derek so I'm not sure if she gave me the keys and someone definitely gave me a set of keys right do you rather whether it was a male or a female from my memory it's a male right
01:43:17 just give me just one moment okay about this handsome it matters very much but it's just a complete the picture
01:43:26 well while that's going away I've just a couple of questions for you what's the usual procedure where you arrive at a property that's got an electronically fob operated security system the normal
01:43:40 fob operated security system the normal thing to do would try the trades button see if that sometimes that will operate the lock to gain entry if there's somebody outside we'll ask him to let us
01:43:51 somebody outside we'll ask him to let us see or fail in that we would call a flat on the intercom system so it's the fire brigade can you let's in right sometimes there's a firefighters key
01:44:04 sometimes there's a firefighters key override box so we can put in the express key that I mentioned that I always keep on me um if we operate that sometimes that releases the electronic lock to override the security systems to allow us to go in is that a drop key
01:44:16 allow us to go in is that a drop key yeah I see that's what's called a drop key that's correct and is the fact that you would need electronic entry through a four ball use of the drop key something that you would ordinarily expect to be on the MDT which
01:44:27 ordinarily expect to be on the MDT which you would find out about on the way to an incident i wouldn't necessarily expect it but it could be placed on there and it's not something that i
01:44:38 there and it's not something that i would look up to find out it's kind of something you sort out wing you there and when you arrived at groennfell was it a surprise to you to find that you couldn't get into the lift lobby without a an electronic fob key it was an
01:44:50 a an electronic fob key it was an obstruction I wouldn't say it was a surprise it definitely stopped us in our tracks for a bit Ryan but it's not common to be faced with the door looking you can't open No and how long did it you set as an obstruction that put you they stopped
01:45:02 obstruction that put you they stopped you in your tracks for a bit how long would you say it stops you in your tracks for minute could probably tell from the CCTV timings but it felt like a minute or so
01:45:24 now you we have you coming into the lift lobby and then you walk into the lift lobby in the next picture which is 137
01:45:40 lobby in the next picture which is 137 inq1 37 is that you that's me yes you're striding with purpose towards something
01:45:51 striding with purpose towards something what are you looking to do I'm looking to you there secure the far left but and in the next picture time 201 a 135 you're doing something with your right
01:46:04 you're doing something with your right hand could you explain what you're doing yeah so I put my Express sniff he'll drop key into the box that operates it and I'm trying to switch it on which
01:46:17 and I'm trying to switch it on which would engage the fire lift operation right and did you have any success with that no I didn't know
01:46:29 then if you go to inq1 3/8 which i think
01:46:40 then if you go to inq1 3/8 which i think it's the next one i you one 3/8
01:46:49 that is showing you doing something with your right hand with the lift key and something with your left hand what are you doing with your left hand do you think um it looks like I'm cold in the lips the conventional way by
01:47:00 in the lips the conventional way by pressing the button right while turning the lift key with your right hand yeah I think by that stage I do accept defeat there wasn't gonna work so I
01:47:12 defeat there wasn't gonna work so I called it as a member of the public which called the right
01:47:23 when you turn the key did you feel did you hear a click or feel a click no I remember it was it was hitting a stop normally you would put it in a new twist
01:47:37 normally you would put it in a new twist it you feel sort of a positive click where it frozen leave rival which engages it it wasn't doing that it was just awful hitting the Sun so stop on the K was the mechanism wasn't it wasn't
01:47:49 the K was the mechanism wasn't it wasn't connecting to them making it isn't working right and we see in this image as you stoled us that you're operating the far recall control panel and
01:48:00 the far recall control panel and pressing the regenerative button at the same time mm-hmm that's right is it yeah that's right your day okay why are you attempting to operate both functions at the same time it's no I may have even
01:48:15 the same time it's no I may have even been trying to get Mikey out of that sometimes they're quite stiff to get in I may even be trying to retrieve Mikey and just call in the lip there's no little trick you can do if you do both for the same time it's on but it's
01:48:27 for the same time it's on but it's nothing like that I'm Eeva still trying it and pressing the lift to get it to call it on its way or I'm physically trying to get Mikey back out and just call the lift normally right and what happened with the lift
01:48:38 right and what happened with the lift when you try each and both of these functions with the fire lift operation nothing and when I called it normally the lift iconic the doors open straight
01:48:50 the lift iconic the doors open straight away or if the lifts came down but it when I called the lifts that sort of conventional way it came and the doors opened okay and did you ask anybody else
01:49:03 opened okay and did you ask anybody else in your group of firefighters to try to operate the lift key the fire lift key and no I don't think I did remember just can I just go back to one
01:49:18 remember just can I just go back to one one thing which is the question of the key fob I was trying to find a photograph for you just to see if he could prompt a recollection could you please be shown inquiry document 1 7 8
01:49:32 step out from the lift key I'm going to come back to the lifts in a moment I'm just going to show you something else if you just enlarge that that is a picture
01:49:43 you just enlarge that that is a picture taken in the lobby with the incident commander taking something it looks from
01:49:54 commander taking something it looks from a male and then in the next picture
01:50:01 which is inq it's at 179 oh he's been he's been pixelated out have to do hit by reference to what he's wearing do you
01:50:12 by reference to what he's wearing do you think that that was the the gentleman that you got the fob key from it's not to tell I really can't remember now
01:50:24 to tell I really can't remember now going back to the question of lifts if I can
01:50:35 do you say you called it were you able to disable the lift and bring it under firefighter control no what were you
01:50:48 firefighter control no what were you expecting the lifter to do if it would work normally by use of the firefighter key you were up you were trying to use first of all you'd expect to feel a positive click with the key in the
01:51:01 positive click with the key in the control box that indicated me this switched over to fire lift mode the the reaction to lift would be the normally on the display it would come up out out
01:51:14 on the display it would come up out out of order or fire lifting operation the lift would return to ground floor level and the doors would open that would be the normal reaction do you know what they recalled switch is no okay I'm
01:51:31 they recalled switch is no okay I'm given to understand that it's a key operated switch external to the lift shaft a ground floor for use by the fire service facility management etc are you familiar with that Akamai I think that's
01:51:43 familiar with that Akamai I think that's a different name for the fire control lift box on referring to right I've never personally had a call to recall lift okay without fire control box what was that present in this lift system
01:51:54 was that present in this lift system yeah that grenfell it was that did it work no what about it did not work well it didn't operate if they didn't do it
01:52:05 it didn't operate if they didn't do it had no and no influence on the lifter so we didn't didn't do what it should do right were you able to isolate the lifts so that they could not be used in the event of fire no what risks to residents would your
01:52:21 no what risks to residents would your inability to bring the lift under your sole control present well there's a few it allows the lifts to be used by anyone
01:52:35 it allows the lifts to be used by anyone who wishes to use it the danger is they get in it
01:52:39 get in it you know it stops and it feels like we're smoking this stunt I'm unexpectedly it also doesn't give us full control over it so the normal procedure would be we would leave that
01:52:50 procedure would be we would leave that lift at the bridgehead with the doors open and if the casualty comes down we can put him straight in the lift and take it down because this able to secure the lift will be going up and down the building if people are calling it so
01:53:01 building if people are calling it so that's another risk to the residents because you slow down their rescue effectively right what about the what other risks might be presented for example to a resident who used the lift
01:53:13 example to a resident who used the lift which then opened on a floor higher in the bill yes they they might not be aware that there's a fire in progress and they might pop down to the fourth floor to see a friend and the doors like
01:53:25 floor to see a friend and the doors like and they'll be faced to a fire situation and that's obviously extremely dangerous we had no way of controlling that lift so it's just free for anyone in the building to call in is it so when you
01:53:40 building to call in is it so when you discovered that the lift could not be brought under control by you in that way did you tell anybody yeah told my watch manager by my
01:53:51 yeah told my watch manager by my handheld radio
01:53:57 and the top of page four we see that you say in your statement I have radio to watch moment of doubting and informed him the lift was not working but then I was gonna use it
01:54:09 working but then I was gonna use it manually he agreed with this and then you go on to say calling Lucerne and why
01:54:17 do you think you might have been able to disable the lift in any other way the only upper waited to say well the lift was to take the time to open the
01:54:30 lift was to take the time to open the lift car doors and isolate the power to it which is normal practice after we attend someone shut in a lift we would isolate the lips and no one else can use it and consequently get stuck in it
01:54:41 it and consequently get stuck in it but that would not be normal practice an instant right and like this would you think it was possible to bit to do that at this incident it would have been
01:54:53 at this incident it would have been possible but yeah it was yeah what I think wasn't right where would you need to go in order to do that because you do that from the lift car or would you need to go to the lift clock I need by
01:55:04 to go to the lift clock I need by investigating where it is each lift installation is different right so you have to look for it so it could be on the ground floor there could be a lift
01:55:15 the ground floor there could be a lift motor room at the top of the building or sometimes there underneath and they can only be isolated from there and sometimes I can only be isolated on top of the lift car so we'd need quite a lot of investigating to be able to do that
01:55:26 of investigating to be able to do that there's not a standard place where you can go to isolate X and what technical information did you have available to you all arrive on the Granville Tower about these lifts and what functionality
01:55:38 about these lifts and what functionality they had at none
01:55:44 and would that be in your experience would that mean normal yes I wouldn't expect to walk into any
01:55:55 I wouldn't expect to walk into any building and find technical information on the lift operation I'd expect to be able to find it I went into the lift motor room sometimes you might have a pack from the maintenance company that could be further information testing schedule stuff up
01:56:08 information testing schedule stuff up but it's not really something we would necessarily get involved in all but even look at if there been a premises information bar well sighs it was that premises information box if there had been one it would that have been a
01:56:20 been one it would that have been a source of information about now analysis it is lift yeah typically if there's a premise of the information box the most information I would expect to find is that the fact that there is a fire lift
01:56:32 that the fact that there is a fire lift and maybe the location of the control for that normally be as far as it goes and then in your statement just came back to it you say when the lifts
01:56:43 back to it you say when the lifts arrived this is the second paragraph they've stood for well the lifts arrived I got in it with two to three other firefighters and all the equipment such as poses breaking in gear branches first aid kit be a board
01:56:54 gear branches first aid kit be a board and a blind bag and then you said to the other firefighters to go to the second floor leaders there say who'd remember what got into the lift with you you do you know Tom Murphy so the crew manager
01:57:09 you know Tom Murphy so the crew manager better be and Father Brown who had their basis on they would have definitely got in whoever else though I think there was someone else maybe two others let's just
01:57:21 someone else maybe two others let's just see if we can piece this together first of all if you like look please at CCTV bundle tab 11 which is inq 140
01:57:34 that's just up it was a familiar angle it's the lift lobby camera to see five yeah and who is that going into the lift
01:57:45 yeah and who is that going into the lift that's myself and just about to go in by the looks of it yes so that's the delay
01:57:57 the looks of it yes so that's the delay with the entry control board and the roller hose and behind him is far far decent oven that's crew manager better be the other crew manager that's looking
01:58:08 be the other crew manager that's looking at me
01:58:09 at me yes the other one looks like father doggie right who's got their breaking in the Halligan bar in his hand right and then do you remember whether they all
01:58:22 then do you remember whether they all piled into the lift or some didn't I don't recognize it doesn't matter but then if you look at the next picture one for one this is within this is
01:58:35 one for one this is within this is inside the lift not very roomy do you know who you tell from that who was in there with you the only one up and possibly say his crew managed better because of the rank markings on his
01:58:47 because of the rank markings on his helmet but the others tonight because because of the world because of the rent marking of on his helmet now the two black stripes right I was that
01:58:58 black stripes right I was that identifies him as the other crew manager I know it was Charlie bass of it okay and this one closest it looks like he's got a briefing appraisal on his back possibly right so that would have been far far Brown that's hopeful to say did
01:59:10 far far Brown that's hopeful to say did the black the two black parallel stripes that cm is it yes I see okay and there it looks like there may be twos well yes once main ones crew manager better fit right that's that's and the next picture
01:59:22 right that's that's and the next picture is
01:59:26 somebody else looking like they're trying to go up who do you think that might be I believe that to be far far a
01:59:37 might be I believe that to be far far a bang at the door he seems to be carrying quite a bulky bag or box it's up the well can you tell us what it is yeah
01:59:49 well can you tell us what it is yeah it's a nice eek it's a it's a it's our first aid kit right okay and then as you came out of the lift on the which floor
02:00:02 came out of the lift on the which floor does the lift go to the same second and when you came out of it do you remember what you did and started setting up the bridgehead okay I want to show you a
02:00:13 bridgehead okay I want to show you a picture from CCTV camera 18 which is tab 17 for the CCTV bundle picture 1 for 9
02:00:24 let's jump ahead a little bit in time it's time to go one oh three oh eight can you just tell us what we can see in that picture
02:00:40 yeah so looks like we've all got out of the lift that piece of equipment in the lift door is what we call the enforcer
02:00:51 lift door is what we call the enforcer which is breaking in equipment and someone's put that there on purpose to stop the lift going because we didn't have control over it if they hadn't have put that there the NIF could have been
02:01:02 put that there the NIF could have been called and subsequently all our equipment but had gone and we would've lost the lid so that's been put there as a temporary measure to keep some sort of control over the lift right who thought
02:01:13 control over the lift right who thought that up whoever put it down right is that something you would normally do if you couldn't get control of a lift and there's a standard operating procedure it's not a standard up nice is its
02:01:27 it's not a standard up nice is its consequence right it's common sense it's good practice yeah yes well that doesn't surprise me about the watch at work because they're all very experienced so that summers obviously thinking on their feet yes yes okay and
02:01:44 did you come back for that but to death that material or did you leave it there say this could isolate the lift leave they're using him for the enforcer to gain entry later on into flat 16 but I
02:01:57 gain entry later on into flat 16 but I don't I don't know if you're that specific one there's all see more than one on the fire ground what else we got there at the picture yes there's a brunch yet such a branch and
02:02:11 brunch yet such a branch and and two hoses two [ __ ] well nothing as possibly free links a house that's a length of 70 mil hives closest then that looks like one or two lengths of 45 million eyes the long bar is called a
02:02:23 million eyes the long bar is called a Halligan bar which is breaking in equipment yeah thank you did you take all of that equipment out of the lift the British law I can't remember it occurs to me to ask you this
02:02:35 remember it occurs to me to ask you this if it was an effective way of keeping the lift at that level hmm did he Deker to you at the time to bring the lift under firefighter controlled by is
02:02:46 under firefighter controlled by is essentially stopping the lift going anywhere else by leaving an object like an enforcer in the doorway no it was that's the first that's the first time
02:02:58 that's the first that's the first time away that happened you know I was carrying on with Mike and roll and that's if in fact leaving a lift on
02:03:10 that's if in fact leaving a lift on uncontrolled but freely available for residents to use was or was something that presented all the dangers you've described to us did it occur to you to stop that lift when he mobilized that
02:03:21 stop that lift when he mobilized that lift by essentially leaving something like a Halligan bar or it's like in the doorways to stop it stop the doors closing no it didn't and although it would work for point is certainly not
02:03:32 would work for point is certainly not something I would rely on because if I left that piece of equipment they're thinking right this will disable the lift and make it so part of it stop thinking about that lift someone picks it up and the NIF goes and I haven't
02:03:43 it up and the NIF goes and I haven't noticed that's that's a provide so there's not enough control over that for that that's why it's not written down in policy because it's such a uncontrolled way although it you know what they've done there works but it's got its
02:03:56 done there works but it's got its downfalls and the fact that as soon as that's moved the lift doors will shut and off it goes and there's also more than one lift and there's two lifts so
02:04:07 than one lift and there's two lifts so it's a very temporary measure yes it's of course and as you say there are two nuts not one yeah mr. chairman it's four o'clock and I wonder whether now may be an appropriate moment to break we're about to move on to a slightly
02:04:18 we're about to move on to a slightly different and you're going to have more questions I'm afraid I do yes I probably got just to see say the witness knows and you know I probably got half as much again as I've asked him this afternoon yes thank you
02:04:29 yes thank you well mr. secret we're going to stop there and sorry I could ask you to come back again tomorrow class again what time we're going to start and still it's generally time it by me
02:04:41 generally time it by me I'm in your hands but Mary well you know how the turns again running big annoyed and yes I do given where we've got to agree I suggest half past nine and we were able to catch up a little bit of
02:04:52 were able to catch up a little bit of time yes would that be inconvenient I'll post might know that I'm happy of any time oh well then we'll start again that's not okay he's don't talk to anyone about your evidence or the circumstances we're
02:05:03 evidence or the circumstances we're looking at all right guys and we'll see you tomorrow okay thank you you go to the ocean
02:05:16 and we'll break nouns Raziel at half-past nine tomorrow I'm sorry about this succession of early starts but I think it's the only way to get close to
02:05:27 think it's the only way to get close to keeping up with our perhaps little ambitious timetable anyway thank you all very much
02:05:42 you