Outbreak of fire (4 July 2018 Pt 1 of 2)

Full transcript

00:00:15 good morning welcome to today's hearing we're going to resume the evidence of mr. Egan in just a moment morning mr. Chanin could we have the

00:00:27 morning mr. Chanin could we have the witness in please thank you

00:00:52 good morning miss Regan doorman sir you ready to keep going weary to go sir good thank you mr. Milind they're mine just morning mr. Regan can I just pick up where we were last

00:01:04 can I just pick up where we were last night it with you in the foyer of the tower and can I just take you to your

00:01:17 tower and can I just take you to your your your temper aeneas notes if I may which are behind your statement and I

00:01:29 which are behind your statement and I want to ask you about a page 2 of that document so I page 3 of that document

00:01:41 document so I page 3 of that document which is part of a very long answer under question 9 and it's the third paragraph down on that page and in the

00:01:54 paragraph down on that page and in the middle of that paragraph you say I noticed the ventilation box auto or on with a key turned to on position I

00:02:06 with a key turned to on position I didn't see any guidance or for where this was operating in the tower I told PW about this box I didn't see all notice any AAFA panel but I did not

00:02:18 all notice any AAFA panel but I did not actively seek one out either it was not my priority can I just ask you one or two questions about the ventilation box first of all what is what is the ventilation box that you're referring to there it was a it was it was just on the

00:02:31 there it was a it was it was just on the ball and I - Samson it was to do with the if they had automatic smoke ventilation system right for their stairwells okay and you say we it had a

00:02:44 stairwells okay and you say we it had a key in it turned to on and it's your clear recollection that's that's my recollection do you know who turned it to on now I don't know so I know okay and is that how you left it I left it yeah because usually you would expect to

00:02:56 yeah because usually you would expect to see in Auto so because it was switched to on I just made the assumption that someone has tried to to get it to work to focus it to work right and what would be that what would

00:03:08 right and what would be that what would be the difference in your experience of auto as opposed to pawn well the old-timers that would even expect it to acts right when those smoke detectors if them spectators would then open the

00:03:20 if them spectators would then open the vents but what you could do is you could force that if for some reason it didn't operate then you can turn the cater on and then they should just open and allow the ventilation just insulation system

00:03:31 the ventilation just insulation system to work right and when it went on would that work on every floor or just plunk one floor or it depends on the type system that's in place on where there's

00:03:46 system that's in place on where there's so when the ventilation would be on the corridors usually you find that you can only do one corridor at a time because the system will equalize out so you have to clear one floor turn it off then you

00:03:59 to clear one floor turn it off then you can turn it on the next floor but I wasn't aware that it was a very simple system it was - it said Auto vent or or something like that and he just had Auto

00:04:10 something like that and he just had Auto and on right they didn't tell me where it was in the stairwells and I didn't know whether there was corridors off at the same payment right and would it be normal to have some kind of guidance

00:04:21 normal to have some kind of guidance plate or documentation or information next to the aov box not really in the Box usually there would be with the plans then it may say what where that

00:04:33 plans then it may say what where that operates and then you could go through the diagram on a plan and work out where the a Ovie's are situated and in adjust your tactical plan later can you say

00:04:45 your tactical plan later can you say that you told Pete W about this box was he PW people is that people that's people too and I just mentioned it as I

00:04:57 people too and I just mentioned it as I was talking and I mentioned it to him just said you know it's in your position and we it was just that there is anything else I can do with that information I've got it it's already in

00:05:08 information I've got it it's already in the on position so if there are vents and they are working they will be in the open

00:05:14 open right but you know what Pete Wilson done did with that information no I think here I think it was just it was just a conversation that has in there is anything I wasn't asking to do

00:05:25 there is anything I wasn't asking to do anything with the information I was just voicing so I know it's there that's in the on position therefore the event should be should be open right did there come a time after that when somebody other the new perhaps

00:05:39 that when somebody other the new perhaps operated the vents and and got them to work I'm not aware and I can make assumption that the fire safety officer that came on may be may have looked it

00:05:50 that came on may be may have looked it but I don't know of anyone that did do it was there a fire safety officer that came on do you know that they should have been another fire safety alderaan at some stage in the incident maybe you

00:06:03 at some stage in the incident maybe you know they may have repeat that the dish needs that sort of as you were same as me

00:06:07 me come on as far safety but then had to be used for something else no and we could have been it sort of run out of fire safety officers until later once it's a closed down really and then used the

00:06:19 closed down really and then used the fire safety officer direct men do I take you that you out you don't know I saw who the fire safety officer was actually and can I then take you back to your statement these which you should have

00:06:31 statement these which you should have also on the screen at page seven I want to ask you about page seven and the third paragraph in that statement on

00:06:42 third paragraph in that statement on that page which starts as it was getting to daylight there was an issue and you see there that you described a

00:06:53 see there that you described a discussion with a crew manager about people in either flat one one three or flat one three three

00:07:05 where were you physically at that point so I I was actually under the command unit where we had our of the door was opened so could see the tower and in us

00:07:16 opened so could see the tower and in us I could see the fire fire and on the phone

00:07:21 and then you go on to say I said what flat number is she she checked he checked with her and told me the number I looked at the board and saw that this

00:07:32 I looked at the board and saw that this already had a P by it which meant priority can I ask you to look at deg for your exhibit which we looked at yesterday

00:07:53 and if you look at you better look at both one let's start with 1 1 3 which is

00:08:05 both one let's start with 1 1 3 which is one of the two numbers you refer to that numbers you refer to 1 1 3 you could see a tick a red tick next to it and then what looks like a green one and then a 4

00:08:17 what looks like a green one and then a 4 in a ring in black and then something next to it and then a pea first of all could you explain to us what all of

00:08:28 could you explain to us what all of those in the legends or indications are first of all the red tick just at the bottom that photograph I think there's a

00:08:40 bottom that photograph I think there's a key to what we put on there didn't big ok it's good to go to that and say that looks like gum well there's pee is

00:08:51 looks like gum well there's pee is priority and then the plus there was nothing in the bottom left-hand side so so under the sort of the first column

00:09:04 so under the sort of the first column there's a little bit of green right interesting yes perhaps we can have that expanded it's very difficult to see yes

00:09:15 expanded it's very difficult to see yes so I'll go so the green figures if we go back to the yeah so the tick if I if I recall correctly we put the tick after

00:09:29 recall correctly we put the tick after we confirm that that that we had a record that they they they left the premises which kind of little bit later on so the tick's were near at the end of

00:09:41 on so the tick's were near at the end of yes than originally so 1 1 3 we would have had information it was one adult four children and I don't so I can't looks like an F yeah can you help

00:10:00 no doesn't look as if it's a repeated repeated figure anywhere else on that on that picture so leave that then and then Peru for a pay would be being a priority

00:10:11 Peru for a pay would be being a priority throughout the children okay and and in terms of the order in which these things would be placed on there can you help us it was just it was just transferring out the information that we got from control

00:10:22 the information that we got from control with regards Fast Five accordance we then apply that that information to that flat number okay so so one three three we believed had to add up information we

00:10:34 we believed had to add up information we had was two adults two children so you made that priority right you made that pretend then I was actually looking at one one provider but it's just to stay on one one three at the moment so you got the green one which is a green adult

00:10:48 got the green one which is a green adult yes yeah and then just summarizing what you said there's a for in a ring for children for children yeah and then something next to it which I don't think you can help us with and then P priority

00:10:59 you can help us with and then P priority and as the P mean that that their whole flat is the priority yes and that all goes down does it from the information that you've got on the paper on the form that it's been written on based on the

00:11:11 that it's been written on based on the information that's come from control that's right so the equation have we got from control and in prioritized it and then it's the red tick you think comes later once the flat is clear I think so yeah I think that relates to what's on

00:11:22 yeah I think that relates to what's on the left-hand side okay and then if we can do the same exercise in relation to flat 133 you've got two green is that says two adults is it sir we've played two adults two children

00:11:34 two adults two children so those made their priority because of the children know it looks like a red ring or red box around the P it with flat one three three can you explain that I think that what I think what that

00:11:49 that I think that what I think what that is is where where we've had people talk to us about it or people have questioned it and as I if I was dealing with for example and then I was asking and tiny Peckham about 1/3 that's very it's a

00:12:03 Peckham about 1/3 that's very it's a priority and he would just be sort of fidgeting if you don't mainly be saying yay look we've got it here as a P yeah that's all now going back to your statement in it

00:12:16 now going back to your statement in it towards the end of the paragraph where on which is the third paragraph on page 7 you you say I looked at the board and saw that has already had a P by it which

00:12:28 saw that has already had a P by it which meant priority I knew that I passed on that information ages ago and it had been marked up to show ba sent it had a - in green which meant that two adults and a two in black which meant kids and

00:12:40 and a two in black which meant kids and you just explained that and going back to the photograph maybe to flip back and forward that it's two in green and a two

00:12:51 forward that it's two in green and a two in black

00:12:52 in black that's one three three isn't it flat one three three not flat one one three yes sir

00:13:01 sir say when you did your statement what you're saying in your statement can we be clear that that what you're talking about is flat 133 or do you think that

00:13:13 about is flat 133 or do you think that it might be one one three which is what you say in the third line it might have been I think I would from from looking

00:13:26 been I think I would from from looking at the picture - right I would go it was one three three so I was talking about it had borrowed base that purely on the - on the number of children that were there okay I'm showing you that the faith your

00:13:39 I'm showing you that the faith your photograph of this board just to try to clarify which flat you remember being the subject of the discussion between the originally the crew manager and the

00:13:50 the originally the crew manager and the man on the phone and what flatly were that they were actually talking about

00:13:57 and the information you received so to say I think it was flat one three three right but do you think that because of what I've shown you or do you have an independent recollection of that the my

00:14:10 independent recollection of that the my recollection when I wrote the statement which was few a few months after it was a little bit hazy and numbers are sore my strong point but when I so I wouldn't pull my cards and all my

00:14:23 so I wouldn't pull my cards and all my money that it was 133 but from looking at that and the information I would I would have gone along the lines that it was 133 purely because of the number of children right

00:14:34 children right yeah it's that because the other one had four children and that was stuck in my head more there was four children in the in the flat yeah yeah thank you young absolutely say no so then you say and

00:14:45 absolutely say no so then you say and let's just get back to your statement in the second last line in that paragraph I knew that I had passed on that information ages ago and it would be mark to show ABA sent marked up to show

00:14:59 mark to show ABA sent marked up to show ba sent

00:15:02 ba sent what would show ba sent what marking will show ba sent

00:15:18 like I can't record I know that's wrong terminology we never we didn't put a P we never put p on anything until we communicate that information to the two

00:15:32 communicate that information to the two people done or whoever's at the base of the tower taking information we never put them we didn't just put loads of peas on the board and then go for it methodically afterwards we only put a pea on the board once we communicate

00:15:44 pea on the board once we communicate that that was now a priority and we'd already sent the information to the to the base of the tower right so I did I think I just made an assumption that because we we've given them that

00:15:55 because we we've given them that information that they would send the BA teams to that flat force okay that's the best sits there just to see if I can summarize what we've got in that then let me do what happened to be the other

00:16:08 let me do what happened to be the other way around but you get the information about the flat which number it is the number of adults the number of children you write that up yes yeah and then you

00:16:20 you write that up yes yeah and then you do a prioritization yeah and you send Lee you decide what's priority you send that to them to the tower yes for yay yeah and then at that stage is this right you write the P on the end that's

00:16:32 right you write the P on the end that's render pay would be on the pole so okay yeah and in terms of your evidence in your statement it had been marked up to shake be a cent that's the reference to

00:16:43 shake be a cent that's the reference to the P as it because at that stage you were assuming that having told the tower these are priorities you assumed that ba wearers would be sent out to get them that's approaches that's right it's

00:16:54 that's approaches that's right it's that's right yes very good that's very clear thank you then you go on in the next paragraph to say I knew this flat number and a kept coming up and I have made sure that the

00:17:05 and I have made sure that the information was getting through when you say I made sure that the information was getting through first of all what information

00:17:23 some some of the flat

00:17:32 take a take take take you tonight in you may Russia to some of the the flat numbers just kept repeating themselves for where where there were people at the

00:17:46 for where where there were people at the scene you know or the police officers were getting information the two police officers outside to come on junior they'd be asking a stay back or about 133 and so you know I just knew even

00:18:01 133 and so you know I just knew even when the the the firefight was on the phone and I mentioned the flat yeah you are still checked but you just knew that that we've had the information and we

00:18:12 that we've had the information and we don't know he had sent it and we'd sent me at multiple times you know we didn't just we didn't just leave if someone else if the police officers outside the command unit told us that they'd received a call about flat 133 I was

00:18:24 received a call about flat 133 I was sent that message again to Pete to say look flat one through free we haven't got there right and so when you say just

00:18:36 got there right and so when you say just coming back to my question made sure that the information was getting through that was you in cu7 repeating the message to people people from them yes it was on the radio at the inside the

00:18:49 it was on the radio at the inside the tower but at the base hit in the foyer yes on the fourth one yeah okay and do you know what he did with that repeat information after he received it from

00:19:00 information after he received it from you

00:19:01 you hey he told me he gave that information to the bridgehead and what you need say he told me he'd sent her to the preacher was that during the same radio conversation when you reminded him or was it later that would be in the

00:19:14 was it later that would be in the conversation it would have been after when we had a lot of calls about try and ask for feedback what was going on right and all he was saying to me is we've

00:19:26 and all he was saying to me is we've given everything we've given the flat numbers and the priority calls to the bridgehead

00:19:37 at the point when you realized that you were having to make repeat transfers of information about the same flat in this case 1 3 3 - Pete will fundin in the

00:19:50 case 1 3 3 - Pete will fundin in the foyer did you think this system isn't working it's - there are too many links in the chain I just need to speak to the guys at the pretend now and tell them I

00:20:04 did go to the basis of tower I did have a conversation I mentioned yesterday where I needed that but it was you know as I said in my opinion you know I wanted it all all to be done but I also

00:20:17 wanted it all all to be done but I also realized that that isn't going to happen but they were doing things but my priority obviously at that time in this in this moment is flat 133 but I just couldn't get any information back to me

00:20:29 couldn't get any information back to me that they've even committed the crews to flat 1 3 3

00:21:01 now it can I take you to page 8 of your statement

00:21:13 at the top of the page just continuing on the same topic you say I contacted pete wilson dylan asked if we were going to that flat he said yes he passed it on and we've just we've just explored that

00:21:24 and we've just we've just explored that i said that we were on the phone to the lady and asked him to let us know what was going on Pete Lofland and confirmed that had been it had been passed to the bridgehead when you talk about the lady

00:21:42 bridgehead when you talk about the lady are you able to expand on who that who that was or so some better identification so the the lady was in

00:21:54 identification so the the lady was in the flat she had two children and she was talking to the I believe it's her boyfriend or a partner but she he'd not given the phone to the crew manager the

00:22:07 given the phone to the crew manager the crew manager said that he was speaking to on the phone and all she was saying this was so she was saying that she just

00:22:21 this was so she was saying that she just wants to go really she's you know she one of her cheap

00:22:31 one of our children had already gone and helped one wasn't moving so she had no reasons to anything right now

00:22:41 now just on that information it can I just explain whether there is a confusion between 1 1 3 and 1 3 3 and just going

00:22:54 between 1 1 3 and 1 3 3 and just going back to the photograph for deg for I'm sorry to to grind the party Terra on the information you just just given us is it

00:23:07 information you just just given us is it is it possible that some of the information that was written up against flat 133 should have should have been against 1 1 3 and war and vice versa

00:23:22 against 1 1 3 and war and vice versa it could have quite easily have been around the wrong way though there was a lot of movement there was a lot of even

00:23:35 lot of movement there was a lot of even on some some of the flats I think on the higher floors some of the flats had particularly high numbers of people in there but we just had to go on that that was the information that we had we

00:23:46 was the information that we had we couldn't really go we didn't have the ways of going back to the checks and phone up 133 and find out exactly who's in the flat or who was in the flat if if

00:23:59 in the flat or who was in the flat if if we'd written down the wrong information you know I apologize for that but

00:24:10 that's what we know it's believed was there information at the time yes

00:24:26 on the same page page 8 mr. Egan mr. Yuni oh yeah fine thank you so about okay you you say after having discussed

00:24:38 okay you you say after having discussed in the previous paragraph being told there were people on the roof you say by that point I knew that we weren't going to put the fire out we needed to put

00:24:50 to put the fire out we needed to put more effort into getting people out not putting water on the flames my view was we should commit crews to every floor we needed to flood the building with

00:25:01 needed to flood the building with firefighters I passed my thoughts up the chain of command now first of all are you able to estimate at least the time at which you had that

00:25:15 least the time at which you had that knowledge or view you knew you weren't going to be able to put the fire out can you estimate the time

00:25:28 very early on it was we needed to there was so there was so much fire that was going through students to the flats just from my experience I know we're not

00:25:40 from my experience I know we're not going to get the war that's all within the floors we just we just can't physically do that so that's where my opinion was that we know we need to get the people out once we get the people

00:25:51 the people out once we get the people out then we can we can at least then try in a more structured manner to try and extinguish the fire but I think it was just a case of they were they were

00:26:04 just a case of they were they were committing the be a cruise to get people out it's just the frustration was I

00:26:13 didn't know that that's what they were doing I didn't know if they was trying to put the fire out as well and I was thinking you know if they are list you're just wasting resources wasting time no you cannot put that fire out and

00:26:26 time no you cannot put that fire out and when you say in the third line there I passed my thoughts up the chain of command only we explored this a little bit yesterday but can you just clarify again for me who did you who did you

00:26:37 again for me who did you who did you tell that the bane to the group managers which was Tom Riddle Richard Welch and Pat gullible how did you tell them what was your means of communicating these

00:26:48 was your means of communicating these thoughts to them that have been face to face just I'd be saying to Tom who's taking over for me and what we had right and when he would ask for where we are

00:26:59 and when he would ask for where we are with regards to resources and what information as I said was quite a first sitting the way that I said it you know I I just wanted to be heard because

00:27:10 I I just wanted to be heard because sometimes sometimes some people get focused on their own and it already changes I'm sure I could focus on Fast Five Gardens but sometimes you need to listen to what what else is going on you

00:27:22 listen to what what else is going on you want to see that's the priority but to me it was clear so

00:27:30 you know and that you you refer to a face-to-face conversation with Tom

00:27:41 face-to-face conversation with Tom Goodell Richard Welch and Pat Goulbourne was that when you took over at cu7 or was it after you had taken over at cu7 no that was after I was I was it would

00:27:56 no that was after I was I was it would have been after Tom Goodell had taken over from me on lon see you seventh yeah so once once because they know that's how our told I

00:28:08 because they know that's how our told I told him what we had my thoughts on what we should be doing that aids his decision-making and in another stage when I went into the base of the tower and in the bridgehead it moved

00:28:21 tower and in the bridgehead it moved then to the ground floor that's when I saw Richard wells with Pat Golborne and I wanted answers I wanted them to commit crews you know I didn't take you to the severity that they've just moved down

00:28:33 severity that they've just moved down from what was on the third floor you know it could have been right at that moment and then next minute I'm on top of him saying come we just got community cruise we've got getting out stops on

00:28:45 cruise we've got getting out stops on foot far out right we're trying to put some kind of timeframe on that conversation yet how long did you spend in charge of FSG calls in cu7 before

00:28:56 in charge of FSG calls in cu7 before handing over to Tom Goodell do you think I thought I thought it was a good half-hour 45 minutes before the Tom little took over for me right so then

00:29:09 little took over for me right so then you went to the tower and you did you see did you see a Welsh and girl born at the bridgehead or did you meet them at in the foyer yes pregnant when once the bridge had

00:29:21 yes pregnant when once the bridge had had moved from I've played the third floor or seconds for the second floor thing to the ground floor that's when I seen them say okay do you have a

00:29:32 seen them say okay do you have a recollection of the time when the bridgehead could come down I think I think I think I went back to the tower not long after I'd handed over to Tom

00:29:43 not long after I'd handed over to Tom Riddle because I just wanted to make sure that what we had in place was still in place and wasn't it it was it's just that the bridge had had changed but we still had the communication links we

00:29:55 still had the communication links we were still getting the information to them but they weren't giving that information back right where they and when you arrived at the tower had the

00:30:06 when you arrived at the tower had the bridge had already moved to the ground floor do you remember on either the third or fourth time I'd says Harriet no today to the ground floor right and at

00:30:17 today to the ground floor right and at that stage to the best of your recollection what was the system of passing FSG information to the bridgehead within the ground floor I

00:30:31 still believe the process was we would give that information to people for them and people would give that to the whoever's in charge of the bridgehead and was that still going on even though

00:30:43 and was that still going on even though the bridgehead was now on the ground floor which is where people from the was also situated it was just on the wall as you as you walk did the wall that was directly in front of you they were they

00:30:56 directly in front of you they were they were right down fast by the guidance calls that we'd give them right and just to get back a little bit to handover

00:31:07 to get back a little bit to handover from you to group manager good old Tom Google did you have a handover briefing I think I hand it over as quickly and

00:31:21 I think I hand it over as quickly and soon as I could 70 no time off work before I've handed over incidence and I've taken briefings from him so I gave him the the bullet

00:31:34 from him so I gave him the the bullet points of what we had use you to say what resources we have but we didn't have any we just had this chain of command and that's where you know he saw we had but he saw a better way to record

00:31:49 we had but he saw a better way to record the information on sort of grid system and did you give Tom Goodell any impression as to the way the success in which with which the system you had set up was working oh I'm

00:32:02 system you had set up was working oh I'm sure he asked about you know who's come out the tail whatever we got back and I said to him that we haven't got anything but all I know is I've checked yet the information is leaving here it's going

00:32:13 information is leaving here it's going to the sort of the foyer and that information is then being sent to butch heads and we're making assumptions on some of the calls that they believe that be a has been sent to that flat and did

00:32:25 be a has been sent to that flat and did you also tell Tom Goodell that there were some flats or examples of flats where it appeared to you you were having to make repeat so we'll send repeat

00:32:36 to make repeat so we'll send repeat messages to people's anthem to pass to the Bridget light lights running it in the incident we had that conversation as to I was still we've still been asking about this flat because we didn't know

00:32:48 about this flat because we didn't know what floor would be a cruiser on we tried to find information of what floor they was on and they've got a little bit mixed in translation I believe so we then that's trial [ __ ] yeah so that

00:33:02 then that's trial [ __ ] yeah so that was more in a later stages that we we tried to find out exactly had anyone come out from us phosphoric Gardens course how did you you say in your last

00:33:13 course how did you you say in your last answered then we just follow up he said you tried to find information on what floor we they would with or what they were all the ba crews were on how did you go about that how did you go about finding the information that was me

00:33:24 finding the information that was me going direct to Pete and just having a conversation it was even just on the radio a couple of times I went to where I went to the base where I could see because the radio traffic was so bad I

00:33:37 because the radio traffic was so bad I could then shout to him across so little bit further wailing yourself and me you're here and then I just thought I'd be asked him what's going on right and

00:33:48 be asked him what's going on right and he would say that it go away he'd come back and he say they've gone through the fifth floor I got through the sixth floor when I asked him about particular flats he

00:33:59 asked him about particular flats he would say that he's told them he said you know sort of [ __ ] they've said cruiser I have been told okay going back to your statement on page

00:34:10 going back to your statement on page eight the third paragraph down we've looked at what you say there about your thoughts about not being able to put the fire out

00:34:25 and you told us about passing your thoughts up the chain of command

00:34:31 well should go born and did they respond to you about your thoughts yes they did

00:34:44 to you about your thoughts yes they did yeah they it wasn't big enough not good enough it wasn't a friendly conversation but I could see I could sense their frustration probably as much as they

00:34:56 frustration probably as much as they could sense my frustration I wanted them to do I was I wasn't telling them to do it I was saying Sam this is what we need to do we need to be getting in their needs we go into these particular flats and their responses we're doing it no no

00:35:11 and their responses we're doing it no no they had so many be a cruise around and especially when I was at the base in the foyer yes you know in the last paragraph on that page page 8 refer to a man in

00:35:26 on that page page 8 refer to a man in his twenties approaching you to tell you about his dad who's in the tower and you explained in your statement the content of that discussion

00:35:43 do you you did you pass you explain explain the advice you gave did you pass on to anyone the fact that you had given the advice to that individual that you

00:35:56 the advice to that individual that you have stated there I thought I've got back up to the command G and I spoke about it I think I told people the guy

00:36:07 about it I think I told people the guy was just so calm he just he just believed we to get him out yes are you able to identify which flats or which

00:36:18 able to identify which flats or which floor that conversation related to I think it s I don't think he I don't think it was that higher thing using in the 70s numbers can I ask you to look

00:36:34 the 70s numbers can I ask you to look back at deg for just to see if it triggers a recollection you say the 70s it's a see if if if this triggers a recollection about which flag it might be if you go to deg forth and look at

00:36:48 be if you go to deg forth and look at the look across at the 70s sure I saw it down you think would suddenly so you think self oiling it fun right so smile Ryan right thank you

00:36:59 Ryan right thank you so black 72 on the tenth floor sorry no that's that's helpful do you think it was that okay and did you pass on to anyone the fact that you had given me

00:37:10 anyone the fact that you had given me the advice to him over the phone yeah but so that he would have been made a priority because he was so high so we would have whether it was after me

00:37:21 would have whether it was after me speaking to him that we made him a priority or previous to that but when either got back on the unit and seen that it was flat 72 in how high he

00:37:34 that it was flat 72 in how high he wasn't in the tower that they were flaws that were you so closely affected by the

00:37:45 that were you so closely affected by the fire

00:37:57 all right yeah I'm fine thank you can I just ask you them to look at de g5

00:38:15 it's a detail at the of the grid whiteboard that you had in cu7 this is a different whiteboard which looks as if it was sitting next to the grid whiteboard could you just explain

00:38:27 grid whiteboard could you just explain in general terms what this whiteboard was for okay so so what happened was we had the the rest byte centers or the welfare centers I believe there was three of them and Tom Goodall got some

00:38:43 three of them and Tom Goodall got some watch managers to go round and speak to people that were in there to try and find out what flat they came from and how many people was in their flat if that the oh and get any more information that was had people still in there so

00:38:56 that was had people still in there so the information that we we've got there is so-so the flat number and how many people got out and when did or what

00:39:12 people got out and when did or what point is that whiteboards start being used in that way that was quite that was

00:39:24 used in that way that was quite that was quite a while into its into the incident so Davis it was it was daylight out there but not inflation was going on the vault right okay so say after the grid

00:39:38 vault right okay so say after the grid whiteboard oh yes yeah and who was doing the writing up on that wall it would have been one of the homogeneous staff

00:39:50 have been one of the homogeneous staff okay so I think yeah well I would I'm gonna make the subsidy it could have been watch manager could have came back and then into that details on there but

00:40:01 and then into that details on there but I'm assuming it was one I've got a picture of Norman crew manager what transit Harrison taking responsibility for that side of it yeah and I think you may have answered this already Minh

00:40:13 may have answered this already Minh answer all to a gay but just just help me who instigated the use of this whiteboard for that part that would abate Tom Riddle okay and

00:40:25 that would abate Tom Riddle okay and this is your photograph did you but you weren't still in charge of cu7 at that stage so I wasn't that so what were the circumstances in which you took that photograph just Chum get me drain it

00:40:43 photograph just Chum get me drain it okay all right okay now just looking at some of the details on it we've got some times and you've got oh for 25 be a

00:40:59 times and you've got oh for 25 be a crews committed to 15th floor and on the left hand side that says from SM Wolfington what was your understanding

00:41:14 Wolfington what was your understanding about what was happening with the 15th law what did the a crews committed to the 15th floor mean where was so frustrating and was trying to put we weren't trying to put any pressure on

00:41:26 weren't trying to put any pressure on them but we was trying to prioritize what we what the crews are doing and it got to the stage where me and Pete had a conversation about you know we just got

00:41:38 conversation about you know we just got pushing through to stop pushing through and then Pete see I said I recited to Pete I need to know where they are because it's no good me giving you the

00:41:50 because it's no good me giving you the 22nd floor if they haven't even got there so you came back to me and said that there was at the 15th floor and what would happen above the 15th floor

00:42:01 what would happen above the 15th floor that's that was as far as crews may have got above the 15th floor earlier on in the incident but at that particular time no cruiser were getting above the 15th then is that what that means that's what

00:42:13 then is that what that means that's what that made sure okay and then and then Oh

00:42:18 4:45 just 20 minutes later somebody's written be a cruise only committed up to the 11th floor not 15th so what was that a change that was a chance Oh

00:42:32 a change that was a chance Oh so I was asked to record that by people Finland because he felt strongly that he

00:42:48 Finland because he felt strongly that he he asked at some he asked at 4:25 where were the crews being committed and they said they told him on the 15th floor

00:42:56 floor and I think there was a heap conversation discussion between people for them and Richard Welch your hands I believe it's a be around where the crew

00:43:09 believe it's a be around where the crew what flawed approval to meet up and so Pete radio to me and said he wants it recorded on the key decision log that crews are no longer

00:43:21 crews are no longer crews are only been sent to the other floor right we're just focusing on another part of this picture at the top right hand corner it says at over 450

00:43:35 right hand corner it says at over 450 133 adults 38 kids 38 people accounted for can you just explain what that means yeah so that would have been the time that that had been last updated so the

00:43:50 that that had been last updated so the last time to watch manager would have come back from the rest rest part center I see see so 450 that was the total that we had and 38 I can't for so it is a 38

00:44:05 we had and 38 I can't for so it is a 38 unaccounted for all you think that should be in or 35 so now let me just ask it this way yeah well third one third one three three adults in green does that mean accounted for or

00:44:16 does that mean accounted for or unaccounted for I believe that's accounted for right and 38 Kids in black yeah it's a good step yeah because that matched the other the

00:44:28 yeah because that matched the other the other side of the boat the colors key okay dad I'll ring for you children play so was this a form of tallying up the information from the welfare centres of the

00:44:39 welfare centres of the centers with the information on the great I believe shock I say and then say 38 people accounted yeah cosplay yeah well then the I think quality of net we

00:44:52 well then the I think quality of net we may have to ask mr. Goodell about about can I just ask you one or two other questions while we're on this picture if you go to the left hand side and you'll see and you'll see a list rescued

00:45:04 see and you'll see a list rescued straight evacuated three lines down you see something it says something on the

00:45:15 see something it says something on the 11th floor can you help us interpret what that something is looks like Cheryl something like that but

00:45:31 sorry I can't okay and then below that there's some writing in black just below all the figures I'm afraid I can't I can't read or understand can you can you

00:45:42 can't read or understand can you can you help me with that

00:45:55 sorry okay if you gave back to your statement and look at page nine in the

00:46:06 statement and look at page nine in the third paragraph there I'm not going to read it out but just look at it you you talked there about the issues getting to a man in flat 83 on the 11th floor and

00:46:22 a man in flat 83 on the 11th floor and he say in the third line the safety officer was saying the man was on the eighth floor but I thought he was on the 11th my question is who was that Safety

00:46:34 11th my question is who was that Safety Officer do you know it was a crate manager had been sort of some confidence that position right and do you remember roughly what time in the night or what

00:46:46 roughly what time in the night or what stage in the night you had these issues about getting to a man on the 11th floor I don't actually know the time but it's

00:46:59 I don't actually know the time but it's it's I think he's recorded when this this guy comes out so it's but because of right because he was in there for so long

00:47:08 long there's recorded when he comes out okay um I've just got one or two specific message one or two probably six or so specific questions based on on the for

00:47:22 specific questions based on on the for the FSG board and some other pictures such a lot in your exhibits mr. chairman would probably take about 15 minutes or so to do this exercise I just wanted to make sure that that was acceptable to

00:47:34 make sure that that was acceptable to the witness and and with you well yeah that's fine okay I think we have a break now if you find it difficult I appreciate it thank you can I ask you

00:47:49 I appreciate it thank you can I ask you to to start please with deg for which is the whiteboard grid again

00:48:05 let's go back to that picture can I ask you to look please at flat 175 and I think we could take this quite quickly because you've probably covered half of the questions that I've got before

00:48:16 the questions that I've got before you've got 175 up there with a red tick and a 5 next to it the significance of the red tick I think you told us earlier

00:48:27 the red tick I think you told us earlier is that it was cleared is that is that right I think the red cheeked relates to that we've got information that they're

00:48:40 that we've got information that they're out out of the building but then if we looked at though the white the left hand balled it might show that otherwise I

00:48:51 balled it might show that otherwise I can't if it isn't now I don't know what the big tips for I can't recall them fries right you've got five in green yeah so rid of thought has five had upset right there is information that

00:49:08 upset right there is information that shows that in fact there were three children in that flat did you know that I didn't know if you had named that how would that have been marked but they've

00:49:19 would that have been marked but they've been priority yeah looking at flat to a three that at the top of the page you've

00:49:30 three that at the top of the page you've got a five out of two

00:49:37 then that shows five chill chill fight 500 dollars and two children with a pea next to it yeah can you help us as to what happened as a consequence of that prioritization of that flat that day information for that

00:49:51 that flat that day information for that fact would have been made a priority like many of the others and their information would have been sent to the the FOIA and said that there that's

00:50:03 the FOIA and said that there that's where we want the egg crews to get to and you know what happened I don't matter

00:50:10 can I ask you down to look at deg one which is photograph of numbers on the wall which i think is in the foyer

00:50:22 wall which i think is in the foyer written up there by who who was in the foyer

00:50:28 foyer can you explain three-quarters of the way down you see a number one to two fifteenth looks like looks like 50th could be 8080 that's hard to tell and

00:50:42 could be 8080 that's hard to tell and then it says smoke so you see you see the number one two - yes and then next to it what looks like 15th 15th floor after to the 15th

00:50:55 like 15th 15th floor after to the 15th and then if you look across I'm afraid you quite picked it up but if you if you look there's smoke do you know how the information about smoke got to be there

00:51:12 I don't actually know what why that was written up there cuz I didn't write it but the information would have come from control as part of their questioning and

00:51:23 control as part of their questioning and their support is to really why can't you leave the premises and they would have said that it's this they smoke in the corridors or something like that and that may have been they've written up

00:51:34 that may have been they've written up there the reason why they can't write but under the system that you've described to us yep all the information that was going onto the wall and this I got this wrong has come through cu7 and

00:51:45 got this wrong has come through cu7 and the system that was now in operation in cu7

00:51:49 cu7 so that the information about smoke would have is this right not relate to that photo I'm afraid that that was very early on in the incident when the

00:52:00 early on in the incident when the carbonic was in operation scissors that's but not all that information was portable so the information would have come through control and the running system and yet our bullets at that stage okay so the information about smoke is

00:52:16 okay so the information about smoke is this right would that have come from a essentially form a fast survival guidance call yeah rather than any yeah rather than the fire brigades saying I

00:52:27 rather than the fire brigades saying I was smoked up there that information would have if it relates if it does relate to that line of 1 to 2 then that would mean that the person said there was smoke either coming into their flat

00:52:40 was smoke either coming into their flat or they can't go out because they corridors full of smoke because Control Department would have advised them to leave the premises if it's safe to do so

00:53:04 can I ask you to be shown please m ET zero zero zero one five nine two five which is now tab thirty-nine of our

00:53:16 five which is now tab thirty-nine of our documents bundle

00:53:30 and this is the whiteboard now at and there's a new time it looks like in the top right hand corner a green Oh 519 and you've got one three three adults in

00:53:42 you've got one three three adults in green 138 kids in black and now 39 people accounted for can you help with that well that just would have been

00:53:55 that well that just would have been adjusted so at 519 the watch manager would have came back I've been to the the rest centers of well-being centers

00:54:06 the rest centers of well-being centers and that if there if there was more people or not if there was no change and it had just been updated at 519 you know

00:54:17 it had just been updated at 519 you know this is the information we've got there was no new information or we were divided it on there and it adjusted the figures to the right hand side do you know how the adjustment for people unaccounted for if that's what that

00:54:30 unaccounted for if that's what that means was made against what information was the was the maths being done to arrive at a figure of 39 we was just we

00:54:41 arrive at a figure of 39 we was just we was trying to work on the basis of the fast father garden schools that we've come in and that we'd recorded on the right hand side cross-reference it with these ones on the left and in how many

00:54:52 these ones on the left and in how many people we had left that we know how my concept of us any general terms the information about rescue and evacuation at the um I think you said earlier from the rescue center they did yes yes before we leave that picture to remember

00:55:06 before we leave that picture to remember mr. Millard ask you about the writing which was off the left-hand side of the previous rather de Graaff I think we've now got a fuller picture it looks as it

00:55:19 now got a fuller picture it looks as it refers might refer watch manager T no does that bring anybody have you come across someone named I haven't come across over that

00:55:30 named I haven't come across over that name

00:55:31 name I wonder if he was one of the watch manager runners that was going to the all right it just in case you yeah Rick again I saw that I it's been suggested

00:55:44 again I saw that I it's been suggested to me very hopefully but probably rather leading me but the words in in black which the chairman has just been drawing your attention are saying part at Garden

00:55:58 your attention are saying part at Garden Bar & Grill does that prompt a recollection no no I didn't I didn't know where the where the actual rest centers were okay so well

00:56:12 actual rest centers were okay so well sorry can I just add this this was the information that we was getting purely from those three areas we know that people have been taken away by ambulance people would have just self presented

00:56:23 people would have just self presented they were just wandered off we knew that but that was that so we've probably got more people out than then that's your near but that's who we could confirm so he didn't try to embellish it in any way

00:56:35 he didn't try to embellish it in any way that's very helpful that was a question I was going to come to so that is not a total picture it's just a picture that of information that was coming from the specific both fair area that's really had evidence to say very good can I ask

00:56:48 had evidence to say very good can I ask you them to turn to the next tab tab forty and be shown em et triple zero one five nine to eight the last picture we

00:57:00 five nine to eight the last picture we saw was at oh five nineteen this one's of oh five thirty seven and the number is now the number of repeat people accounted for has now changed to forty again does that help you explain the

00:57:16 again does that help you explain the with the words people accounted for is that people accounted for or unaccounted for the number seems to be rising yeah

00:57:30 no I couldn't I'll just be guessing I'm sorry

00:57:36 sorry and then at the bottom left-hand corner we have something looks like firefighter five Singh Oh 6:15 treated by layers for smoke inhalation so in one of the fire

00:57:49 smoke inhalation so in one of the fire fight scene suffered a bit of smoke inhalation and was removed from the tower scored from the tower and he went to the one of the wood the rest part

00:58:01 to the one of the wood the rest part centers right so we know he was he was there know looking across the picture to the grid we seen and we've got it we can

00:58:14 the grid we seen and we've got it we can take the time if you look up on the grid at flat 142 if I could just be enlarged

00:58:25 at flat 142 if I could just be enlarged for you

00:58:27 for you flat 142 and the right side it has a green 5 which you've told this means of green which means five adults and there's a red P can you explain the

00:58:43 there's a red P can you explain the circumstances in which that board has a green 5 and a P attributed to that flat

00:58:55 is it it was it part of the system whereby even though they were adults they were nonetheless designated as a priority yes if they yeah if there was

00:59:06 priority yes if they yeah if there was it's very vulnerable in some way then they would have been a priority okay and do you know what action was taken as a result of that prioritization for those

00:59:18 result of that prioritization for those people in that flat the information would have been passed as a bridgehead to create crews to go rescue them and

00:59:27 staying on the same picture if you look please at flat one to two which is on the right-hand side you see a two there in green

00:59:46 that that refers to two shadows

00:59:55 if you turn to the next tab tab 41 which is met triple zero one five nine three zero we're now back on them that the

01:00:10 zero we're now back on them that the left hand whiteboard an on grid whiteboard I think sorry I'm not as a completely different photograph do you know what this photograph is I haven't seen that before

01:00:21 seen that before no zero flat have you ever seen a list like this before no right

01:00:27 and then finally if we go to m2 tab 42 which is M et triple zero one five nine three three you can see if you look at

01:00:41 three three you can see if you look at the top of the page with flap 2:05

01:01:07 that's now God I'm sorry I'm looking I said he made the wrong picture actually one five nine three three

01:01:21 right something says slightly wrong one five nine three three

01:01:32 yes if you look at flat at 2:03 at the top of the page that now has a 1 let's

01:01:45 top of the page that now has a 1 let's say now that has a 1 in a circle you know you've got the 5 in greeting five adults to in black two children P the priority you've also got a one in the circle can you explain what that is

01:02:11 I can't actually recall what the what the blue number was

01:02:20 [Music]

01:02:27 I don't know if that if if the if the blue is the blue number would have been for babies or infants it could well have

01:02:42 for babies or infants it could well have meant that you think we don't know I can't

01:02:58 and one two you look at 1 2 4 it says 1 in green as 1 over P do you know how how

01:03:11 in green as 1 over P do you know how how that the one a doubt came to be prioritised

01:03:19 if there was a an adult on their own then rude of order been led to believe that I was vulnerable persons so we needed to make sure efforts to get them out okay and then next to it there's one

01:03:31 out okay and then next to it there's one three one two three which is two adults but also got a priority so can you help with that so exactly the same really it

01:03:46 with that so exactly the same really it once one two three yeah it wasn't one of those persons we would have believed would have been vulnerable not less not

01:03:58 would have been vulnerable not less not necessarily to them but it's a to as a total okay and then flat fifty-five

01:04:07 you've got a three in a circle what does that represent flat

01:04:18 what does that represent flat thirty-three you've got all one in a circle the same question just this time it's blue does that can you help with that marking and then flat 14 that one

01:04:34 that marking and then flat 14 that one you've got a tick a three in green and a three in black in a circle do you know what the three in back in a circle means

01:04:46 looking at that bald I would say that that was three adults and three children right but going back to the other one I don't know why depth three three children on their own

01:04:57 children on their own all right and that there's a suggestion that I just want you to comment on it that the three in a circle numbers in the circle mean that those are the numbers whose self evacuated does that

01:05:09 numbers whose self evacuated does that mean anything that could that could well be that they'd already left do you know that I don't know you do I know okay and then the same question in relation to flat two so very laid out in the

01:05:20 flat two so very laid out in the building yeah two two adults well it's two in blue yeah I think is the flat number and then - yes ringing black yeah

01:05:31 number and then - yes ringing black yeah so so yes that'd have been a flat I I was I thought there was a key at the bottom of the page to to say what they were and yeah I think the trouble is

01:05:47 were and yeah I think the trouble is that the photographs we've got this great date revealed what that key if it's if it's there in full show us at least in respect of that legend that they are in a ring we can we can proceed

01:05:59 they are in a ring we can we can proceed on with others better turn that's very much mr. Regan would you just give me a

01:06:10 much mr. Regan would you just give me a memo sparklies Thank You mr. chair

01:06:28 mr. Egan thank you very much for giving your elders I have no further questions for you mr. chairman it may be appropriate that we just take a short break before I finally let this let this

01:06:41 break before I finally let this let this witness to make sure I was about to ask you do you need him from Maine next in case of further questions I personally died but I'm and there may be an advantage what everyone or too late maybe left since we've gone through a long exercise of looking at looking at

01:06:54 a long exercise of looking at looking at the material this morning right well we will all have a break now we'll have 10 minutes until quarter to 11:00 Street and I'm afraid there could be some more questions very few but I don't have to

01:07:09 questions very few but I don't have to ask you to remain for the time being just in case can't you say it we prioritized everyone it's just that someone will be a higher yeah of course

01:07:20 someone will be a higher yeah of course of course we understand thank you very much you gave us the option

01:07:32 right course for love

01:07:44 you

01:19:20 yes mr. minute well should we get mr. Egan back in anyway that yes

01:19:49 mr. even I think there are few more questions mr. minute needs to ask you just a minute thank you very much mr. Regan a thank you for coming back and first of all can I just ask you to be

01:20:01 first of all can I just ask you to be shown by the documents manager at photograph which is a meaty triple zero one five nine two four and this is the

01:20:18 one five nine two four and this is the white grid in cu7 again this picture shows the whole white board with the key at the bottom and you

01:20:35 board with the key at the bottom and you can see that and there's still no reference there to a tick but what we do

01:20:49 reference there to a tick but what we do see is P priority and then P in a square priority line gone dead and I ask you some questions yesterday I had what that square was and we can now see could you just explain what priority line gone

01:21:02 just explain what priority line gone dead means that would have been probably coming back from control to say that there's no further communication going on on that line right and

01:21:17 the green dot left premise you can see and there's a cross left flat what was most the difference do you do you know so I lift okay the left flap I don't

01:21:35 so I lift okay the left flap I don't know I don't know what the difference was there okay I think about that yeah I've done this if you look just where you've got that

01:21:46 if you look just where you've got that highlight it's 70 74 yeah the cross on it yes so that would relate to that flap

01:21:59 it yes so that would relate to that flap and there's a t2 as well there's an arrow which goes from top left to bottom right yeah under them under the legend

01:22:10 right yeah under them under the legend left flap what does that signify signify nice way and what about the little blue dot with an F next to it what does that

01:22:22 dot with an F next to it what does that what does that tell us you know

01:22:43 I think I may have said for Tully and

01:22:58 I'm sorry to dwell on this this grid again mr. Egan but in the bottom left-hand corner you you see a red asterisk ba have gone there but we don't

01:23:12 asterisk ba have gone there but we don't I think see any red asterisks used anywhere in the grid instead we have red ticks I just wonder whether you can help us interpret the grid in that way got

01:23:26 us interpret the grid in that way got red ticks but with no nothing in the key and you've got a red ba have gone there asterisk but no use of the asterisk in the in the great quiet yeah what might have happened I think I think that that

01:23:38 have happened I think I think that that is saying that the red ticks ba crews have been sent to that so then the floors right they've got the red chicken so say you when you gave evidence earlier this morning you thought the red

01:23:49 earlier this morning you thought the red ticks whether the flats have been cleared yeah I believe that but I say it's a saying that K now and remember because the Asterix a isn't the right thing to do but the Asterix would just

01:24:00 thing to do but the Asterix would just say it was a form of a list and the writ so we used the tick to say that be a crews had gone there or for whatever

01:24:12 crews had gone there or for whatever reason we knew ba crews had gotten there they may relate to what was on the wall and we kept it red because that's what was doing the priorities isn't the P okay thank you now you could put that away we don't

01:24:26 now you could put that away we don't take that on the screen there's a couple of more general questions first of all was there a was there a procedure for checking flats even where there had been no FSG calls coming from that flat there

01:24:41 no FSG calls coming from that flat there is there is a way that we do check them and have we cleared them methodically as we go through and that would be probably the form of a systematic search so we

01:24:53 the form of a systematic search so we were which would have probably been far later into the incident

01:25:00 when the systematic search would have been done at what point do you think that that systematic search system started up I believe that started up around between 10 and half-10 they start

01:25:15 around between 10 and half-10 they start to make a systematic search of each floor so before that is it that the searches of individual flats was only being done in response to particular FSG

01:25:27 being done in response to particular FSG calls from those plants that yeah they the crews the crew shouldn't just go in on this is a bit of a misconception the crews shouldn't just go in to say the

01:25:38 crews shouldn't just go in to say the ninth floor and then smash in every door to clear it because what that does that breaks down a compartment ation so flat on the ninth floor then catches fire it's gonna spread through to the this

01:25:51 it's gonna spread through to the this corridor so they should you know they'll go to that particular flat if they haven't got information about flat 27 that's next door to them that they're

01:26:02 that's next door to them that they're not going to try and get in there if the door was open they may look but their priority would be to go so that the flat that they was being identified soon yes

01:26:13 that they was being identified soon yes now when you very first arrived on scene and I'm sorry to go right the way back to the start of your evidence which might seem like a long time ago your initial thoughts whether you had to put

01:26:24 initial thoughts whether you had to put the fire out less but in essence what you said um if you were going to have a

01:26:32 rescue operation instead of attacking the fire

01:26:38 how would you gone about that what method would you adopt to conduct an evacuation of this tower on the basis of the old knowledge it would have taken a

01:26:51 the old knowledge it would have taken a lot of command and control we would have had to use some form of warning so loud haters for the crews and my thought

01:27:02 haters for the crews and my thought process was that they would systematically go through a couple of flaws at a time with crews going along banging on doors giving people a chance you know trying to cajole them out if

01:27:15 you know trying to cajole them out if they was in there and then try Mary schooled them down right and then perhaps those three floors at a time depending on how how it was working no this is just it's all hypothetical

01:27:27 no this is just it's all hypothetical it's it's what I thought at the time that which this is how it should be done right it's what you feel at the time it's just why thoughts are and you've made a hand signal identifying three floors going in an upwards direction

01:27:39 floors going in an upwards direction which won't be caught on the transcripts there any asking the question in going at a number of words at the time would you go bottom-up or top-down no from

01:27:51 you go bottom-up or top-down no from from from what I could see and from the information the information that we had the I think the vast majority of the

01:28:02 the I think the vast majority of the course were from the 11th floor so in my opinion that's really odd to start 11:12 thing and just comedic roofs and mainland doors try and get people to

01:28:14 mainland doors try and get people to come out if they if they don't open the door it's it's not advisable to force the door it's a it's a hard call it it's not something that could just happen it

01:28:25 not something that could just happen it would take a it would take a while the crews would have to be really briefed because the crews would be going in they wouldn't have anything they wouldn't have water because the only a couple of the crews would have enough for the Jets

01:28:38 the crews would have enough for the Jets so I think it's doable but it could take a while to get that process in place and in terms of resources what would you need you you just need you would need

01:28:49 need you you just need you would need multiple multiple machines multiple Behe whereas on average they can wear for 20 minutes they they might be able to do two runs the a go-to tool on the floor

01:29:01 two runs the a go-to tool on the floor wait for a moment there's called people down they might have enough air to go to maybe the 14 15 16 in Cruiser for for firefighters per floor you would soon run out of

01:29:15 floor you would soon run out of firefighters you would you would it would it would be and it was a major instant and you would need to use all those be a resources that you had and just to repeat my question decide pinned

01:29:26 just to repeat my question decide pinned it down would you go bottom up or lower to higher or higher to lower you'd have to you'd have to start at the the highest point you could probably get to

01:29:37 highest point you could probably get to so like I said say so from my my thought process we it would have been in the 11th floor upwards because I believe and I also believed it was it was clearer

01:29:48 I also believed it was it was clearer air there um I could be completely wrong but I believed it was clear air but that's where that's where all the information I was getting the first father grant schools start on from about

01:30:00 father grant schools start on from about the 11th floor so that they would have risk and I know obviously the higher that you get into the tower the hotter the more smokes gonna be there and it's just it's it's going to take you a lot

01:30:11 just it's it's going to take you a lot longer to try and clear a floor once they sink valved engulfing the flames so you start at the 11th floor but would you clear from the 11th floor upwards or go straight to the top and come down

01:30:23 go straight to the top and come down towards the 11th floor initially you would start making your way up but then the systematic search as I said it wouldn't be it's not a quick fix but he

01:30:35 wouldn't be it's not a quick fix but he would then you'd still want to make sure that you've cleared 10 9 8 7 down to the ground thank you can I ask you to look at or should be shown

01:30:46 shown see 790 in task 5 of the LF policy bundle and look please an internal page

01:30:57 bundle and look please an internal page four paragraph seven recording and sharing of information and I just want to look at paragraph seven point five with you the commands support system CSS

01:31:11 with you the commands support system CSS has messages as a message of screen that records messages sent to and from the incident ground once they see you has been mobilized message is said by filing radio relating to FSG calls are recorded

01:31:24 radio relating to FSG calls are recorded here my question is do you remember whether the CSS system on either cu8 or c u7 was working on that night we had an

01:31:38 c u7 was working on that night we had an issue with the the CSS because the the command unit has an inbuilt generator it's a produces electricity and I and I

01:31:49 it's a produces electricity and I and I think it been set up to be recorded that it had been intermittent fault before and on the night I believe it kept I think we had we did get up and running

01:32:02 think we had we did get up and running and then it just crashed I think crashed about three or four times I think it over he hits though there is an issue with the with the power supplier that

01:32:14 with the with the power supplier that provides electricity and CSS working right is that on both see use or just eight or just seven which one the conversation I had with the homogeneous staff when it crashed is that this is a

01:32:27 staff when it crashed is that this is a regular occurrence is that on cu8 or season on multiple from arjuna's sorry billy be may be sorry on Pinkley on the night you were him see you act like and

01:32:39 night you were him see you act like and then um to see you seven yeah which on which command have sorted the CSS system crash on when I was on command unit seventh then that's where the generator failed and nothing right and what am I

01:32:51 failed and nothing right and what am I see you eight I I wasn't on this I don't know what whether if there's work okay and if it hadn't crashed and was working as it as it as it was supposed

01:33:03 working as it as it as it was supposed to work what difference would that have made to the system of collating FSG calls and then communicating them with the bridgehead or via an intermediate

01:33:14 the bridgehead or via an intermediate point to the bridgehead where where the information that was coming would have come from control we may have been able

01:33:29 come from control we may have been able to see if control would have put them on the CSS so we may have been out of cross reference later on yeah once we had time to see what information we've been given

01:33:43 to see what information we've been given by the radio and the telephone and they might have been recorded and in it and it may have you know if we if we did like that on number I apologize but we

01:33:55 like that on number I apologize but we could have checked and would it have made the carbonate communication system which it's which you which had been there to start with would that has still been necessary or would be with a

01:34:06 been necessary or would be with a working CSS admit that was unnecessary now the the the carbonic HD is the initial sort of initial attack really they're the ones that are going to get that initial information a little bit

01:34:18 that initial information a little bit later only a few minutes innocence the kamat another command unit would come on and then they would they get they would sit set themselves up they'd get the command support system working so the

01:34:30 command support system working so the car bonnet is still there they would still take them calls and a movement passed out I'll move that to the commander right see if the CSS had been working what benefits would it have

01:34:41 working what benefits would it have brought to you on the night which you didn't have

01:34:52 it you know you think about in hindsight as it's on yeah I can see what messages have been sent from the fire grounds because I would in case I would have missed them I'd have been out to see

01:35:03 missed them I'd have been out to see that the structure of who'd incident commander was where the other sector commanders were it would have given me a bigger picture of the incident but

01:35:16 bigger picture of the incident but saying that I didn't really need that much him I didn't need that information because I was I had fires fire gods to deal with I wasn't dealing with the operations of it okay so in terms of

01:35:28 operations of it okay so in terms of fire Survival guidance how are the how are they working CSS have improved things I I don't really know to be honest either if the if

01:35:40 know to be honest either if the if control would I've never been that position where information is beyond on the CSS and first of all the guidance right and then if you get back to your

01:35:53 right and then if you get back to your statement at page three and again I'm sorry to take you back to early on in your evidence there's just one point I just need to follow up with you we covered a little bit but I just want to

01:36:05 covered a little bit but I just want to see if I can cover a little bit more at the top or bottom of page to top of page three this is when you arrived at the command unit and book in and this is cu8

01:36:16 command unit and book in and this is cu8 and you say at the bottom of page two I spoke to the incident commander Richard Welch and he started to brief me and I asked what he needed me to do but he

01:36:27 asked what he needed me to do but he just stopped and said I want you to take charge of fire Survival guidance calls and then you say I asked for the details of what we already had and spoke to watch manager norman harrison who was one of the command units staff so the

01:36:41 one of the command units staff so the conversation with norman Harrison was that in the presence of of group manager Welch yeah it was Jerry and did did watch manager Norman Harrison say

01:36:52 watch manager Norman Harrison say anything in your and mr. Welch his presence about his view of stay put and whether it should continue to be the right advice to give to residents in the

01:37:03 right advice to give to residents in the you didn't did he say anything about talking to control about what advice should be given to residents in the

01:37:14 should be given to residents in the building when when when this conversation happens Norman just started

01:37:25 conversation happens Norman just started telling me exactly what he had like the number of calls he had of his sayings got a plaque we're trying to work out what floors along and trying to cross-reference it and then that's when

01:37:36 cross-reference it and then that's when Richard Welch said this collagenous Evan Dando collagenous oh okay did you see or

01:37:48 Dando collagenous oh okay did you see or hear norman harrison express any views in front of mr. welch about the wisdom of stay put and and what should be told to the control room and now i died in him

01:38:09 mr. Egan thank you very much for answering my further questions they could I just say I'm very grateful to you for coming to the inquiry and giving your evidence thank you very much thank

01:38:20 your evidence thank you very much thank you Miss vegan thank you very much indeed for coming along I'm sorry it's been a bit difficult for you from time to time and I'm sorry it went on rather longer than I think you were expecting but your evidence has been very helpful

01:38:31 but your evidence has been very helpful and I'm very grateful to you for coming along thank you very much so if you like to get the action you're free to go mr.

01:38:44 to get the action you're free to go mr. chairman it was it's probably sensible if we have a very short break just yet before the next witness I think rearranges the arrangement he did he would prefer to give it that's right thank you

01:38:55 right thank you right well I'll rise in five minutes or less it can be done that quickly I think five is a good number thank you

01:39:13 you

01:47:14 thank you very much miss for having good morning you see because love comfortable thank you yes yes mr. minute good morning mr. hat behind the night

01:47:26 good morning mr. hat behind the night first of all can I say thank you very much for coming to the inquiry to help us with our investigations we really do appreciate it my questions are intended

01:47:37 appreciate it my questions are intended to be short and simple that's the idea but if you've got any difficulty understanding them what you want me to repeat them please just ask me and I will do that or I'll try and put the

01:47:48 will do that or I'll try and put the question in a different way and if you need a break at any time please just say and we can have a short break or you will try to break anyway without taking

01:48:00 will try to break anyway without taking evidence and great long chunks could you please give the inquiry your full name John and you made a statement if you

01:48:12 John and you made a statement if you could be shown that it should be in a bundle in front of you if you need to see it in paper form at a tab 11a that we have it on the screen in the normal way and it's M et quadruple zero eight

01:48:25 way and it's M et quadruple zero eight zero five nine to have you read that statement recently yes okay it's dated the 21st of December 2017 can

01:48:38 it's dated the 21st of December 2017 can you confirm that its contents are true yes and we also have a tabs 11 B and C your contemporaneous notes at 11:00 be

01:48:49 your contemporaneous notes at 11:00 be and that's Joh one exhibit one and that's a meaty quadruple zero five four zero seven and then at C we have a plan

01:49:01 zero seven and then at C we have a plan joh - which is M et triple zero one five eight zero six and we may need to look at those as we go through the reason I'm reading out aloud is so that that's now

01:49:13 reading out aloud is so that that's now formally in evidence in the inquiry can I ask you have you discussed your statement or the evidence that you're going to give to the inquiry today with anybody before coming here no thank you

01:49:26 anybody before coming here no thank you I'm going to start if I can mr. handler with your your position and your training

01:49:32 training you joined the lfb 16 or so years ago yes and have you been an active firefighter since then yes and in your statement you say your training level is

01:49:44 statement you say your training level is is competent it's in your second paragraph can you just explain for us what that means other firefighters have done can you just tell us what that means we're continually continuously

01:49:57 means we're continually continuously assessed on our competence and I'm deemed too confident firefighter right and when was the last assessment that you've had about competencies done continuously through right

01:50:10 continuously through right you've been stationed or you were stationed at Hammersmith I think for some 10 years on red watch and you were at Hammersmith on the night of the

01:50:23 at Hammersmith on the night of the grenfell tower fire and I think you were assigned to pump g36 - yes in your

01:50:34 assigned to pump g36 - yes in your statement at the bottom of page one and over the top of page two you explained the high-rise training that you have received and you continue to receive just look at that together if we can at

01:50:47 just look at that together if we can at the bottom of page one you say we have we do real fire training once a year but

01:50:58 we do real fire training once a year but that's not specifically high-rise and then we also have refresher training once a year in VA then you say this I have previous experiences of firefighting and high-rise blocks in a

01:51:09 firefighting and high-rise blocks in a high-rise born in a few incidents in Fulham but I can't remember when in relation to any of those were those expert firefighting experiences those

01:51:20 expert firefighting experiences those that involved fire on the exterior of the building no and is there anything about those experiences which stands out

01:51:42 you say in your statement on page 1 just a little higher up that we use our drill tower weekly we practice high-rise and

01:51:53 tower weekly we practice high-rise and basement drills at the station we turn up to the drill tower and treat it as a high-rise each have roles to perform and could you describe for us the drill tower that you've got at Hammersmith

01:52:05 tower that you've got at Hammersmith it's just a four-story brick building with windows on each level we've got dry riser main it's about 5 meters by 5

01:52:18 riser main it's about 5 meters by 5 meters with metal floor gun stairs going up with a pitched roof on the top training and what could you just give an

01:52:30 training and what could you just give an ID us an idea of the kinds of things you practice when you do a high-rise drill in the Hammersmith Tower basically you can drive round it's the odds everyone have their role

01:52:42 it's the odds everyone have their role you pull up as in a normal incident and you'll use the base of the tower as the bridgehead and work from that right do you practice when you do high-rise

01:52:53 you practice when you do high-rise drills do you practice dealing with a fire where it's come out of the window and is moving up the outside initially

01:53:06 and is moving up the outside initially there will be a covering jet which would deal with that but then that has to be switched off once people are in the compartment you practice that do yes do you practice how to deal with any

01:53:20 do you practice how to deal with any fire Survival guidance calls that that come and what to do with the information as it comes to the to the tower no that's more kind of lecture based right

01:53:37 in terms of lectures you get regular lectures to you at Hammersmith yes and who delivers those lectures one of the officers I've watched manage out all

01:53:49 officers I've watched manage out all crew manager right and at the time of the Grand Vitara fire who was the watch manager what was he a will be sure right

01:54:04 manager what was he a will be sure right and in terms of these lectures how often would you have a classroom based training at least once a week once at all right and were these high-rise or

01:54:18 all right and were these high-rise or other things - yeah there's lots of different ones right how often would you get a classroom lecture on high-rise once every six months maybe well when

01:54:33 once every six months maybe well when you've got lectures will you give them handouts or slides or other kinds of written into that PowerPoint presentation okay we've given anything to take away with you to study no but the OP notes and training manuals

01:54:47 no but the OP notes and training manuals are on the computer at work

01:54:53 does your training cover any aspect aspect of advice given to residents to stay put does your training cover

01:55:05 stay put does your training cover compartment ation what it means and what happens if it fails yes could you just explain a bit and expand a bit about what that training is what compartment

01:55:17 what that training is what compartment you know any well just that you treat your room as a compartment and you deal with that fire as you would a compartment and what what procedures

01:55:31 compartment and what what procedures what do you have any training on what procedures you should follow if compartment ation should fail sure there's any procedures but it's

01:55:42 there's any procedures but it's generally you just start again from where the fires gone so did you before

01:55:55 where the fires gone so did you before June 2017 ever get any training in what should happen or what does happen where an exterior cladding structure on a

01:56:07 an exterior cladding structure on a high-rise building catches fire no did you get any training or education on exterior lateral or downward fire spread

01:56:27 as at June 2017 had you heard of a fire at shepherds Court yes did you attend that fire I didn't know you didn't and

01:56:38 that fire I didn't know you didn't and what had you heard about the Shepherd's caught fire and just that came out that window and moved up two flats one by one up to the next floor and then the next

01:56:49 up to the next floor and then the next floor I believe how did you come to hear about the shared support for our watches the initial attendance right and in terms of discussion about it was there

01:57:00 terms of discussion about it was there discussion within the crews at Hammersmith about but lessons learned as a result of shepherds Court and just that it was a very hard job for them but

01:57:13 that it was a very hard job for them but that building gave them the time to get from one flat and put that out on the next flat did you discuss or learn or hear anything as a result of shepherds caught about

01:57:25 as a result of shepherds caught about about the risks of exterior materials on the building cladding sandwich panels Catching Fire

01:57:40 in your statement if you look please the second page

01:57:48 you say that you had been to Greta felt our previously yes but on a call out do

01:58:07 our previously yes but on a call out do you remember that I'm yeah remember being there before yes right and just so I can just pick it up with you in the statement it's not easy to find your way

01:58:19 statement it's not easy to find your way around but it's three the two thirds of the way down you say we had been called there - what is an AFA a fire alarm at the nursery it was a night call out so

01:58:31 the nursery it was a night call out so it was closed at the time I believe it was sometime in 2017 and I think it was at the time the renovations were coming to an end but I can't remember exactly as I said the nursery was closed so we

01:58:43 as I said the nursery was closed so we couldn't get into it without doing any damage so we searched around and that's when we went into the lobby and found it was separate to the flats that's all I knew about the tower now there's quite a

01:58:54 knew about the tower now there's quite a lot of information in there Sakai ok unpack it with you as it were but first of all an AFA what is an AFA automatic fire alarm automatic fire alarm and

01:59:05 fire alarm automatic fire alarm and what's automatic about it goes off on its own it doesn't have to be triggered by somebody it'll go off by smoke flies dust physik the call to an AFA is that

01:59:19 dust physik the call to an AFA is that an automated it's automated they go through to our central central the company who would put it through to us and then we and the nursery was that

01:59:35 and then we and the nursery was that would you remember what you give him where the nursery was located in terms of which floor it was on it's on the ground floor I think it's the the west

01:59:46 ground floor I think it's the the west side when you say you I know it now it's a surgery not a nursery ok do you say you were unable to access the nursery when you got there do you remember where the entry point to

01:59:58 do you remember where the entry point to the nursery was as you go through the main entrance to the tower just on your left and why were you unable to work to access it it's nighttime and it's locked up okay do you

02:00:12 nighttime and it's locked up okay do you remember if you have a way of getting hold of the key not that I know of whether they request some some places

02:00:23 whether they request some some places have key holders that you can request some places don't have key holders listed did you ever get into the nursery no right

02:00:30 no right say what how did that AFA go sort we did a walk around the building because of glass panels so you could see

02:00:41 because of glass panels so you could see into the surgery you walk around make sure there's no signs of fire and if everyone's happy then you can send a stop for that I

02:00:53 then you can send a stop for that I think you could do that once imagine clicking you know the officer in charge will send a stop via the driver okay that would stop the alarm would it no I'm sorry yeah stop so we we can go away

02:01:06 I'm sorry yeah stop so we we can go away from that shell okay okay the alarm won't stop on that trip did you get into the lift Lobby no did you learn anything

02:01:18 the lift Lobby no did you learn anything about whether you needed a special key or drop key or a fob or something like that if you did need to get into the lift lobby I didn't know you didn't I

02:01:30 lift lobby I didn't know you didn't I get to turn now to the first call out that you got to Grenfell tower and on the evening of the 13th of June you got

02:01:43 the evening of the 13th of June you got a shout do you remember what time the call came in to the station just one o'clock yes and the operational response

02:01:54 o'clock yes and the operational response review that I read show you has use as status to mobile to incident at oh one oh one sixteen would that be about right in terms of recollection yes and you you say in your

02:02:08 recollection yes and you you say in your statement and this is this is at the top

02:02:20 statement and this is this is at the top of page two four lines down you say when the bells went down I was in my room room 12 because all our rooms are quite

02:02:31 room 12 because all our rooms are quite close we all came down together and you go on to say I came down into the office where there's a telly printer and saw it was a fire at groennfell tower was

02:02:44 was a fire at groennfell tower was anybody running the office at that stage yes and there's a teleprinter what's

02:02:55 yes and there's a teleprinter what's what was the telly printer printing a call slip for the foolish outside when Phil tower right and that comes off the telly printer automatically does it yeah

02:03:06 telly printer automatically does it yeah it prints out and then we rip the slip off and the information on the piece of paper that comes out to the telly printer where does that come from it's sent through by control okay and that

02:03:18 sent through by control okay and that piece of paper it's been referred to as Evette by various names in the last week or so but some people have called it a tip sheet is that did you personally get to see the tip sheet not personally no

02:03:31 to see the tip sheet not personally no you didn't at any stage during that night no right you look at music as it's a surprise I was just trying to think we brought it but I don't believe it and

02:03:43 brought it but I don't believe it and who took the tip sheet from the teleprinter do you know I believe it was fire archer oh okay and what did he do that do you remember

02:03:55 and what did he do that do you remember he first thing he did was read out as he was ripping off right obviously if she says fire then that kind of sparks you into

02:04:07 into like she en listen a bit more so you said he he read it out we where was where were you standing just coming down the corridor just by the door to the

02:04:19 the corridor just by the door to the office and the teleprinters right inside the door and what about the rest of the crew we were all pretty much down there at the same time right so far far are ready now to everybody duty yes at fire

02:04:31 ready now to everybody duty yes at fire Grand Hotel right did he give you any any other information off it's not that point because he needs to look on the map to find out where he is duty yes did

02:04:42 map to find out where he is duty yes did he find out where it was yeah he said he recognized it double-checked on the map right and then went onto the machine okay and the map is where is it a big paper map we got a small one right while

02:04:53 paper map we got a small one right while the teleprinter or just outside the door to the office you've got several large maps with grid references okay and you

02:05:05 maps with grid references okay and you then say in the next paragraph that we then walk to the machine got our leggings on got on the machine and went from our mobile data terminal MDT we

02:05:17 from our mobile data terminal MDT we didn't get any information other than where it was and of the farmers on the fourth floor did you look at the MDT yourself no that's in the front cab and

02:05:29 yourself no that's in the front cab and you were sitting where behind the officer-in-charge on the near side in the back okay said just at that stage can you just tell us who was in the cab once you started off from her art she

02:05:41 once you started off from her art she was driving crew manager Davies was in front of me in charge and myself and firefight Barton were on the back

02:05:53 who are the designated be a warriors you and myself for firefighter Barton and

02:06:02 did you say from our mobile data terminal we didn't get any information did anybody in the cab on route read out what the information was on the entity I

02:06:15 what the information was on the entity I believe crew managed Davies said fire full-floor brimful town possibly that it was in a kitchen I'm not sure okay cuz when you say from our mobile data

02:06:26 when you say from our mobile data terminal we didn't get any information other than where it was and that the fire was on the fourth or it's it sounds as if you're saying that that was the only information on the mobile data terminal well it gives you a duplicate

02:06:39 terminal well it gives you a duplicate of the call she writes on the mobile and apart from that was there any any other information about the building that you

02:06:51 information about the building that you were going to not that we knew did that strike you as usual or unusual it didn't come into my thoughts to be honest okay

02:07:07 does the level of detail that you get about a building you're going to on a shout vary from incident to incident yes

02:07:18 shout vary from incident to incident yes some buildings have more information on the MDT than others did you know you were going to a high-rise yes Tower gave it away it would would have

02:07:31 Tower gave it away it would would have bite and given that you were going to a high-rise would you have expected there to be rather more information on the mobile data terminal than you were

02:07:42 mobile data terminal than you were getting various theories um on the map on certain places there's a triangle with a an exclamation mark which brings

02:07:53 with a an exclamation mark which brings up more information I'm not sure whether that was looked at by ourselves did you get any information about where the Tri rising main inlet was no did you get any

02:08:06 rising main inlet was no did you get any information about the floor plans or where the dry rising outlets were on the floors no any information about where the hydrants were to be found

02:08:22 you arrived at groennfell tower and we have you status 3 @o 108 27 again is

02:08:34 have you status 3 @o 108 27 again is that does that roughly correspond with your recollection in thefts or it says right

02:08:45 and did you well we can pick it up in your statement you say in your statement

02:08:53 in the I suppose it's the last paragraph before the end which starts we arrived on scene see that we arrived on scene rough at roughly 1 a.m. and then you in

02:09:06 rough at roughly 1 a.m. and then you in the next line it says the officer in charge of North Kensington said over the radio next machine can we have to be a wearers so crew manager Davis told Nick Barton and I thought that our sets on

02:09:18 Barton and I thought that our sets on gravel on line thermal image camera t I see a length of hose and a branch did deed did you know who the officer was in

02:09:29 deed did you know who the officer was in charge of North Kensington yes at the time you did who is that man is dowdy okay and when you say he said over the radio was that while you were still in

02:09:41 radio was that while you were still in your appliance on route or after you'd arrived just as we were pulling up to the incident okay and when you say over the radio was that the RIP which we hailed as the handheld yeah okay say

02:09:55 hailed as the handheld yeah okay say which channel was that shooting on one gentleman and you and barton put your sets on yes and was that once you've parked as we were parking is it is it

02:10:07 parked as we were parking is it is it possible is it how easy is it to Don a be a set while you're still sitting in the cab but it's behind you so you just pull this the straps oh no oh I see okay

02:10:18 pull this the straps oh no oh I see okay say when you get into the cabin you mount the cab to go to an instance of the be a set is ready to go sitting on your back of your seat as if it's bicycle in your backrest okay and

02:10:31 you park next to the north kennel and on Grenville road can you say that it is but that was to the east of the tower do

02:10:44 but that was to the east of the tower do you remember that yes and at the top of page three you say three lights down when we got off the appliance we saw the glow in the window so we knew there was

02:10:55 glow in the window so we knew there was a fire in the room that we saw nothing out of the ordinary how far away from the building were you do you think at that point probably here to the fall so

02:11:13 that point probably here to the fall so I'm trying to gauge that's about 30 feet or less the chairman Dr reasonable views

02:11:29 or less the chairman Dr reasonable views may differ I'm tempted to ask people to put up their hands if they've got a better suggestion traveling to another forest of homes and they noticed this is yes limits to democracy and you got off

02:11:42 yes limits to democracy and you got off the appliance and you described a fire you say that you say in the next line I didn't have a full-on front viewer view

02:11:53 didn't have a full-on front viewer view of the window it was more about suicide for you but you could see there was a fire inside you could see the glare in the window could you tell at that stage whether the fire was contained in within

02:12:06 whether the fire was contained in within the room or my recollection and I thought the window was closed and I could just see a small orange glow right and what about smoke could you see any

02:12:17 and what about smoke could you see any smoke I didn't see any smoke but I it was just a quick glance and then no I was going to ask you it was a different

02:12:28 was going to ask you it was a different look or was it a quick blow it was a look up I can see an orange glow get inside and you say in the next line it didn't look big he looked like a kitchen job or a small flat fire the window

02:12:40 job or a small flat fire the window wasn't broken said there was no smoke coming

02:12:43 coming they say the window wasn't broken could you see the window intact I believe say right and my recollection yes okay now could you did you hell not

02:12:55 yes okay now could you did you hell not have long enough when you saw the window could you see whether there was still any weather whether there are any features to the window I can extract a

02:13:07 features to the window I can extract a fan still send a nose remember now as I say is it a brief glance right brief glance now at the bottom of page two

02:13:18 glance now at the bottom of page two just to get back you've explained the material you took with you I've read that to you already can I ask you this have you ever heard of a fire bag yes

02:13:31 have you ever heard of a fire bag yes yes what is a fire bag I believe it's a bag that contains the equipment that we normally use up at the Brigid such as

02:13:42 normally use up at the Brigid such as what hose branches breaking in gear yeah and did you have a fire bag with you

02:13:53 and did you have a fire bag with you know what's special about a fire back as opposed to all the other equipment that allows you to carry more stuff at one time right oh I see so it's simply a bag to put things in is it there's nothing

02:14:05 to put things in is it there's nothing is there any special equipment in a fire bag that you wouldn't have if you didn't have a fire bag I believe now we've got new equipment we've got a special fire bag now that has different equipment

02:14:16 bag now that has different equipment than we did before well stick what's what's the different equipment there's divide in breeches with shutoff valves what do those dividing breeches where you can plug two

02:14:29 dividing breeches where you can plug two outlets into one it divides the water so you can have two hoses coming out of one but this has got a shelf valve okay when do they start coming in when you

02:14:40 do they start coming in when you remember I'm not sure was that after great filter was it I'm not sure but we didn't have one right would you have had dividing breaches on runs prior to Greenville

02:14:51 breaches on runs prior to Greenville tower we have dividing breaches here did you have Great Dividing breaches that grande filter at the incident on machines yeah but I don't know any we used ok you then say going back to your

02:15:15 used ok you then say going back to your statement that you went past North Kensington as they were as that they

02:15:29 Kensington as they were as that they were in the lobby let's go to your pages read the third paragraph down you say

02:15:39 North Kensington were outside setting up all the hose for the dry riser we walked past them and into the main lobby and then you say after that so you go up two

02:15:54 then you say after that so you go up two flights of stairs then you go through another set of doors above the lift in that Lobby is where the bridgehead was set up that's where the rest of North Kensington crew was there was water in the dry riser when we got to be a

02:16:05 the dry riser when we got to be a control can I just ask you first of all how did you get through the internal door to the stairwell you remember they

02:16:17 door to the stairwell you remember they both open they were both open but they propped open or did you need a special key to get through I can't remember I would imagine they'd have been propped opened okay now I think could probably

02:16:28 opened okay now I think could probably time this if you go to a you okay to look at CCTV for pictures not you're not live footage but pictures right if you

02:16:39 live footage but pictures right if you go please to and be shown CCTV image tab which is i NQ 5 0 is 1 7 8

02:17:05 you should see a picture of a firefighter coming through the main door wearing a white hat on and talking to a gentleman can you identify first of all

02:17:19 gentleman can you identify first of all who was wearing the white a board obvious watch man's down that's that's what matters of doubt and is it and then I behind him can you do you know who that is

02:17:32 did guess right and you say what's better to doubt him and most as much manager Da'Ville appears to be giving or

02:17:45 manager Da'Ville appears to be giving or taking something from the gentleman do you know what that was I don't presume it'll be a fob you say that why do you presume because you know I know you need

02:18:00 presume because you know I know you need fobs to get in so is that that would be the first thing that might would ask for it is that something that you knew at on the night that you needed a fob to get

02:18:11 the night that you needed a fob to get in

02:18:11 in no but that's generally the way

02:18:16 high-rise Eenie you need fobs to getting did you did you see my dad taking a font from the witnesses no from a gentleman and that's time to toe 108 49 so you

02:18:34 and that's time to toe 108 49 so you would arrive by then do you think you were part of the group of firefighters we can see clustered around the door on the outside that night you know one next

02:18:47 the outside that night you know one next picture is next tab to have two in the window bundle which is 179 we can see to

02:18:59 window bundle which is 179 we can see to be a where as exiting the tower Oh 109 o-5 do you know who they they were no might one of them be you

02:19:11 were no might one of them be you possibly and then they come back in again if you look at the next picture which is 180 with a length of hose one firefighter does it do you know who

02:19:23 firefighter does it do you know who that's Lisa not Bolinas me and looking at the hoses in the in the top right-hand corner of the picture could you tell me whether they're charged or

02:19:34 you tell me whether they're charged or not charged on two top left two charged and how do you know that because they're not flat

02:19:51 and then you go up to the bridgehead and that's on the second floor as you've said if you go to the next picture we've

02:20:05 said if you go to the next picture we've got you timed picture is x @ o1 1003

02:20:17 and can you identify who is in that picture to be a where is in the front one of them Bethan caught a hose actually is one of those you possibly

02:20:29 actually is one of those you possibly and the watch manager on the Left who's that do you know I'll turn it down and that's Downton and then on the right who's the firefighter on the right holding the door open I guess that fire

02:20:40 holding the door open I guess that fire burned right okay and do you know why he's holding the door open for you because we need to get through it that's

02:20:52 because we need to get through it that's primarily correct but do you know why let me ask in a different way do you know why the door needed to be held open because if it closes then we'll need to use the form again time right do you remember finding a way to keep that door

02:21:04 remember finding a way to keep that door open in order to allow firefighters through me personally go do you remember no do you know how it was kept open or nobody dumb buyer made me fire

02:21:15 nobody dumb buyer made me fire extinguisher or right maybe a bit hose I don't know right you don't remember how it was done and if you then go back to your witness statement page three fourth

02:21:30 your witness statement page three fourth paragraph down you say at the time they were actually setting up the VA board they had just sent north Kensington's be

02:21:41 they had just sent north Kensington's be a crew up the stairs crew manager secret from north kensington was in charge he said right I've said to crew up there get under and back them up with a backup hose so that's what we did everyone knew what they were doing it

02:21:53 everyone knew what they were doing it was just a fire and a flat now the question is do you know the name of the firefighters who were who were going up stairs the other be a crew gotta be a

02:22:05 stairs the other be a crew gotta be a group I don't believe I did at the time but obviously I do now okay and who was setting up the be a board you remember I believe it is Alex Alden and who else was at the bridgehead I remember him and

02:22:17 was at the bridgehead I remember him and crew manager secret and you say secret

02:22:24 it's structured you in Barton to go to go under air would back them up and we've got the VA data just to put a time

02:22:38 we've got the VA data just to put a time limit of you removing your tallies at oh one eleven thirty four and would that be about right in terms of the length of

02:22:49 about right in terms of the length of time after you arrived well the length of time between arriving and tallying out I love what oh one 1134 that's what

02:23:00 out I love what oh one 1134 that's what it says we've been there about three minutes yeah that'd be my right okay can you remember what crew manager secret told you by way of this briefing

02:23:12 no I'd only be guessing okay did you have any information about the floor layout or the location of the flat that you were supposed to be going up to by way of back up do you know his room the

02:23:25 way of back up do you know his room the fire was in did you know first summaries are thinking kitchen I don't know whether I was told that or it's just life right though I know it was the kitchen now so I don't know yes that

02:23:40 kitchen now so I don't know yes that prompts a question at what stage in in the in the night did you discover that it was a kitchen fire well for certain when I was in the kitchen cause sure but

02:23:51 when I was in the kitchen cause sure but before I done I cannot recall whether I know or not it was in the kitchen right but yes

02:23:59 but yes can you explain what acting as a backup crew backup be a crew involves basically protecting the other crews egress of the

02:24:12 protecting the other crews egress of the incident just in case they get cut off and just backing them up helping out them for anything they need okay did you take your own hoes with you from

02:24:27 did you take your own hoes with you from the bridge showed up you didn't know

02:24:33 what did you do with the well let me I start start ask first of all what equipment did you take up with you I believe you had a thermal image camera anything else and when you went up to

02:24:51 anything else and when you went up to back them up did you go straight to the fourth floor or did you go fire the another floor we went up the stairs to the fourth floor yes and on that journey up did you see

02:25:02 and on that journey up did you see whether there was any hose coming out from the third floor running some stairs into the fourth floor there was none running up into the full floor but there was how is being laid out from third

02:25:13 was how is being laid out from third floor so the moment you passed the third floor lobby this to stare from the door from the standard of the lobby what could you see was happening almost I was coming out of the third floor right so

02:25:25 coming out of the third floor right so it was coming out of the third flee and snaked up to the fourth floor but not through the door not through the door how would it come out from the third floor into the stairs if not no I mean

02:25:36 floor into the stairs if not no I mean into the full floor door right I see say that stager to come out from the third floor into the stairs and gone up but hadn't gone through into the fourth floor over yet no because that was our job to take you through yeah got it right okay who had set up do you

02:25:47 it right okay who had set up do you remember a big hose on 3rd air video and you are told by cream ultra-secret to go

02:25:58 you are told by cream ultra-secret to go up under air it is it normal to go up under air from the bridge head rather than waiting until you get to the fire floor yes because that's where you've

02:26:09 floor yes because that's where you've put your tallien that be able so you don't you don't you don't start breathing only one once the air becomes contaminated you you start under air at the bridge head and that's a golden rule

02:26:20 the bridge head and that's a golden rule is it

02:26:21 is it what are you gonna share yeah okay and

02:26:31 at the top of page four of your statement you you say perhaps I should was pick it up right at the bottom of

02:26:42 was pick it up right at the bottom of page three it's the easiest place to start you say as we started going up the stairwell to level three we found firefighter Padilla from North Kensington he had gone on to the third

02:26:53 Kensington he had gone on to the third floor and plugged our hose and rolled out the hoods for us so we grabbed the hose off him at the brunch on the third floor went up another level to the fourth to the far floor and I think that describes what you were talking about

02:27:04 describes what you were talking about earlier on and we opened the door in the lobby and it was smoky did what was the

02:27:17 lobby and it was smoky did what was the smoke like how smoky was it I don't believe it was particularly smoky but there was smoke present right did you see anybody in the stairwell as you were

02:27:28 see anybody in the stairwell as you were coming up I think my statement I said I did I can't recall any specifics but if I said in my statement then well let's

02:27:40 I said in my statement then well let's just look at that you say in the fourth line down from the top of page four there were people coming down the stairs as we were going up in BA I presume from neighboring flats did you see whether those people were

02:27:52 did you see whether those people were suffering from the effects of smoke inhalation or whether they looked healthy and for my recollection I don't believe there was no they were just walking down the stairs as far as I know

02:28:03 walking down the stairs as far as I know I can't be sure did you wonder why they were coming downstairs it's a big tower Brock they could have been just - I don't know

02:28:22 so you enter the fourth floor lobby with the hose that was coming up from the third floor yes yes and would that mean that you would therefore have to prop the fourth floor lobby door open

02:28:38 the fourth floor lobby door open well not properly open but the door would have to be open to have the hose going through it yes and did that mean that smoke which you had encountered in the fourth floor lobby would then leak

02:28:50 the fourth floor lobby would then leak out into the staircase yes - did it occur to you that that would be a problem or might be a problem it wasn't I thought I had at that time because I just thought it was a fire in a flat so

02:29:06 just thought it was a fire in a flat so all right but we need to get hose in there so you need to get a hose in there but did you know that was already a hose plugged into the dry riser outlet on the fourth floor I knew that before us would

02:29:18 fourth floor I knew that before us would have hose yes so yours was the backup hose coming up from the third floor yes did you see smoke leaking out from the fourth floor lobby into the stairwell from the paymaster done when

02:29:31 stairwell from the paymaster done when we open the door right muss did that cause you any concern I think you said no but not particularly I don't believe it was very thick smoke okay would it be normal to run a hose from a stairway

02:29:51 normal to run a hose from a stairway into a fire floor lobby or corridor through a door into the stairway that would be left open so that snow could come out yes

02:30:04 how would that keep the stairway protected from smoke as a clear means of escape for residents if it was necessary

02:30:15 escape for residents if it was necessary to evacuate wouldn't it wouldn't like once the doors open right okay and in your experience does

02:30:28 right okay and in your experience does that cause a problem for those people seeking to use the stairway as a means of escape yeah if there's only one staircase yes now you say that you

02:30:50 staircase yes now you say that you entered the lobby and you say in the fourth sixth line down we found the flat on the right-hand wall as we came in

02:31:04 North Canton were there we could hear them you say we found out they were going right into the flat now it's just pause there um to be clear were they

02:31:18 pause there um to be clear were they already inside the flat when you hear that they were okay and was the door to the flat open or already closed okay did

02:31:30 the flat open or already closed okay did you know that it had been broken into with an enforcer I didn't know the details of how I got in there but the doors open was it the door being open was it Lee

02:31:41 was it the door being open was it Lee staying open of its own accord it was it propped open it was open and I believe his homes going through so oh I see Sir just give me a picture mentally it was

02:31:53 just give me a picture mentally it was open and there was hose going through was the reason the door was open because there was hose going through or was it propped open in some other way

02:32:07 can I ask you to look at your contemporaneous notes which are in handwriting eight lines up from the

02:32:24 handwriting eight lines up from the bottom you say as we entered the lobby

02:32:29 this goes just back a step in terms of what you were doing mr. o'hanlan you say as if we entered the lobby it was

02:32:40 as if we entered the lobby it was heavily smoke logged could you just explain what you mean by heavily smoke logged I said there was heavy smoke logs

02:32:53 logged I said there was heavy smoke logs but this statement was made pretty much straight after grenfell yes you know so

02:33:05 straight after grenfell yes you know so given that it was made pretty much straight after Graham felt welcomed for 12 hours does that mean that it's likely to be accurate a fresh recollection of I

02:33:16 to be accurate a fresh recollection of I don't remember the lobby being heavily smoked up though right because you use the word heavily there yes my drive out why that is I couldn't tell you what I

02:33:28 why that is I couldn't tell you what I know remember this the lobby being heavily smullins okay so you think they weren't heavily there it shouldn't have been used or possibly yes okay no you

02:33:41 been used or possibly yes okay no you say no statement if you just get back to it we found out they were going right into the flat how did you find that out as we went down the corridor it came to

02:33:52 as we went down the corridor it came to kind of a t-junction and you could hear that they were down the right hallway okay that that's once you're in the flat yes okay then it may be me

02:34:05 yes okay then it may be me misunderstanding your your your senses right into the flat another sorry you mean there was only one way into the flat yet

02:34:14 flat yet at the end of the corridor they'd gone right oh I see sorry okay right I understand now so does that mean that you would

02:34:25 now so does that mean that you would then go round to the left yes that's what we do I think you go on to say if they're going right and Barton says the thinking right we'll go left to search the flat whilst they put the fara if I had a button he was leading you say we

02:34:36 had a button he was leading you say we see the one giving as it were instructions or commands yes and then you just explain the left hand will search that you do is that standard

02:34:47 will search that you do is that standard procedure when acting as a backup crew you were to a search in the opposite direction to the way in which it was being done by the primary crew seat but

02:34:58 being done by the primary crew seat but in a in a flat then there's no point in both of us going right and time if times of the essence so yes now later on in

02:35:09 of the essence so yes now later on in your statement it is much later on at page 7 and I don't need to take you to it but you say you can hear the smoke alarm going off in the flat do you remember that I believe I did yeah okay

02:35:22 remember that I believe I did yeah okay was that in do you remember whether that was an internal smells and so going back to what you saw when you went in to the

02:35:33 to what you saw when you went in to the flat you first go into the flat what was the temperature like you remember I don't I don't remember it being very hot

02:35:45 don't I don't remember it being very hot we've been very smug loads I think and yeah well I don't believe I remember being really hot and what about these

02:35:57 being really hot and what about these smoke conditions in the flat when you first went in what were they like

02:36:04 lady in the corridor it is quite heavily smoked dogs yes right and could you when you went in could you hear the North

02:36:15 you went in could you hear the North Kent crew yes you could and could you see them when we got to the corridor the end of the corridor you could see the bits of light from their torches and

02:36:27 bits of light from their torches and right not actually then you couldn't actually see them no and was that because of the dense the intensity of the smoke yes now the first room you go into as you

02:36:38 now the first room you go into as you say is you think of bedroom and if you look half way down the page for we just pick that up and you say he's got the

02:36:53 pick that up and you say he's got the brunch you've got the tea I see and half way down the page you say I bumped into him he was trying to get back out again it was dark and smoky now you couldn't see much there was a corridor on the left and a bedroom that's the kind of

02:37:06 left and a bedroom that's the kind of thing you worry about bedrooms at night you're thinking of people in bed is that the standard way to search for people that you you could do room-by-room

02:37:17 that you you could do room-by-room search yes okay did he go on to say I we went into the bedroom I think Nick went one side of the bed I went the other we were searching using our hands and feet trying to find people had you been told

02:37:34 trying to find people had you been told that in fact everybody in the flat had left it

02:37:39 left it no I believed my statement I am as I went up the stairs I asked was there anybody in there and then I who to but I've got the replied we don't know right

02:37:50 I've got the replied we don't know right do you remember who you have a conversation with okay it wasn't it wasn't a conversation it was as I went up the stairs I just turn around and said is there any right and while you

02:38:03 said is there any right and while you were doing this search what had happened what have you done with the thermal-imaging camera I just put it down it comes on a strap and I just put it down right so we're still on you yes and what about the what

02:38:15 still on you yes and what about the what about the hose what does make Barton dummy but Nick had the branch and I had parked the hose as well right what were you doing this search while holding the hose no I'll let go go around the other side admit right okay what did he do

02:38:26 side admit right okay what did he do with the hose that he could have done or did he search about holding the hose I don't know okay you then go but how long would it say how long would you say that it took for

02:38:37 how long would you say that it took for you to do the search before you came to the kitchen right and when you you say

02:38:50 the kitchen right and when you you say the bottom of page four what she lines up for the bottom when I got to the kitchen North Kensington were putting up putting the fire out I don't remember the left-hand side of the kitchen on the

02:39:02 the left-hand side of the kitchen on the right hand side the cupboards were split damaged but not far damaged I'll just come I'll go on with that in a moment because I just asked you when you both enter the kitchen was firefighter

02:39:14 both enter the kitchen was firefighter Barton still in front of you I would imagine so okay at that point we used still holding the thermal-imaging camera

02:39:25 still holding the thermal-imaging camera I would have still had this area did he have the branch yes so what would be the normal situation in that in that arrangement who would go to the kitchen first to the Brawn fire bottle right

02:39:39 first to the Brawn fire bottle right when you went into the kitchen do you remember whether you left the door open or did you close it behind you kitchen door would've been open okay no can you describe what the conditions

02:39:51 can you describe what the conditions were like in the kitchen in terms of visibility when you first went in from like remember it was quite clear necker's obviously the window has gone so all the smoke had gone out the window

02:40:02 so all the smoke had gone out the window so it wasn't that smoky in there you say the window had gone do you remember what you could see in the in the window when you say window had gone at the window

02:40:14 you say window had gone at the window pane falling out leaving a frame behind or

02:40:17 or whole window frame gone I just peed myself I thought the whole of the frame were gone but I've since seen photos of it clearly see the frames oh and then at

02:40:32 it clearly see the frames oh and then at the top of page five you say the fridge was on the right quite close to the window you wouldn't recognize it as a fridge just a charred rectangle with a

02:40:43 fridge just a charred rectangle with a bit of melted stuff at the bottom that was still alight in terms of the fridge do you remember where the fridge door was I don't remember seeing a fridge

02:40:57 was I don't remember seeing a fridge door

02:40:57 door you don't remember seeing a fish door do you say do you think it was still on the fridge or off the fridge and somewhere else all I saw was a carcass and pile of melted plastic about right and that that

02:41:11 melted plastic about right and that that is that what you refer to as the bit of melted stuff at the bottom that was still alight yes and you're going to say the flame was around 30 centimetres high is that the flame coming from the mountains of plastic yes

02:41:23 mountains of plastic yes were there any at that stage was there any other fire inside the flat not inside the flat no could you see what was happening outside the flat at that

02:41:35 was happening outside the flat at that stage yeah I believe so what could you see look like the window surround was alight the window surround was alight

02:41:47 alight the window surround was alight inside the flat externally externally and where was the window surround a light bottom right on top from bottom right up round back to bottom left so

02:42:01 right up round back to bottom left so the whole of the top of the window and the future right could you describe the fire you saw on the window edges I must

02:42:13 fire you saw on the window edges I must say the right-hand side was the fiercest

02:42:19 it was roaring on the right-hand side and

02:42:23 and the other two would just on fire and then you'd go on to describe four lines down at the top of page five they came

02:42:34 down at the top of page five they came out of the kitchen and said to us we're running out of air so just carry on so when we walked in and I gave it a little spray gistic just clarify that for me did you

02:42:44 did you was there a time when you were all in the kitchen together all four of you or did they come up and not really they're all in the kitchen together right during that time do you remember a conversation discussion words passing back between

02:42:56 discussion words passing back between between you about about what was happening no I remember but that doesn't mean it could have happened did you hear either of those

02:43:10 did you hear either of those firefighters there's be a where's send a radio message now were you aware of them sending a message or trying to send a

02:43:21 sending a message or trying to send a message no please if they're sending a message on their Barry sent then unless I was actually kind of next to her

02:43:32 I was actually kind of next to her staring at them I wouldn't say you say you weren't aware of did didn't did you have a discussion with them or them with

02:43:44 have a discussion with them or them with you about the fire on the exterior you could see in relation to the window I remember I remember it's they sit they run out there I mean it's pretty

02:43:55 run out there I mean it's pretty self-explanatory in there the windows like you then go on in this fifth line

02:44:06 like you then go on in this fifth line of the first paragraph on page five to say say when we walked in and I gave it a little spray what was what did you gain he'll bring little plastic plastic in the fridge and you say I could put it

02:44:18 in the fridge and you say I could put it out with a cup of water

02:44:21 then you talk explain the technique you use painting the painting that you then go on to say what was happening in the

02:44:35 go on to say what was happening in the window I'm going to come to that um but before you went over to the window did anything about what you saw inside the flat give you cause for concern no you

02:44:50 flat give you cause for concern no you described giving it a little spray so I've just shown you had you taken the branch by this point I must have done it all if north ken had gone out I'd had

02:45:02 all if north ken had gone out I'd had their branch okay so I had a branch if you had a look this and did what about Nick Barton did he have a branch as well or did he get I'm not sure not sure and where was Nick Barton at that stage

02:45:15 and where was Nick Barton at that stage was he in front of you or behind you when he was painting them I was right by the fridge so he wasn't in front of me so I said he must have been behind you somewhere

02:45:34 just then talking about the fire around the window the second paragraph on page five you say the width David gone by then broken so it was what we call a

02:45:46 then broken so it was what we call a vented fire all the smoke was starting to pour out so make conditions easier forum make conditions for us easier that's when we notice the window had completely gone even the frame wasn't

02:45:59 completely gone even the frame wasn't there and we noticed that it was on fire but the window surround was on fire I thought it was a bit weird just just unpacking that a little bit you've explained what you mean by the surround can you describe the flames

02:46:14 bright orange on the right-hand side it was roaring back in from what I remember roaring back it warming does explain easily hear it roar you can hear it roar

02:46:25 easily hear it roar you can hear it roar yes what does that mean to you at the time it sounded to me like gas pipe well gas pipe sounds like when it's on fire what do you say roaring back in what shape was the flame that you can turn

02:46:38 shape was the flame that you can turn around back through the window but curling around but not doing it from well from where was it it's just the sound I remember right at curling back in from the outside yes whereabouts from outside top of the

02:46:52 yes whereabouts from outside top of the window side of the window all the way down the right-hand side right okay did you get a good did you then go get a good look about what was on fire immediately outside the window no what

02:47:07 immediately outside the window no what was that dude he died do you know I never get a good look yeah about I did try and get out the wind and have a look yes okay we'll come to that dude could

02:47:18 yes okay we'll come to that dude could you see any fire spread from where you were Stefan where we were you don't say you say you thought it was a bit weird what was what was weird about it the

02:47:31 what was what was weird about it the roar in the intensity of the fire down the right-hand side right could you see any blue in the flame I compliment you then say in the third

02:47:47 I compliment you then say in the third paragraph I think really on page five we walked over to the window and started spraying the window frame it didn't have any effect on it but which point i sat on the windowsill and was leaning out

02:47:59 on the windowsill and was leaning out and tried to hit what I thought was the window surround I couldn't lean out that far because of the weight of the BA of my BA on my back I just saw a square of fire and that is when I noticed all the

02:48:11 fire and that is when I noticed all the debris outside because of the angle I was I couldn't see the rest of the building and then you go on to say what you say that now where do you say the

02:48:28 you say that now where do you say the start of that paragraph we walked over to the window and started spraying the window frame where were you standing how close to the window were you when you started spraying the frame I would have been right by the window right by the

02:48:39 been right by the window right by the window yeah did you notice and any objects in front of the window not that stand out but obviously I've seen the pictures and I don't remember putting

02:48:52 pictures and I don't remember putting the pictures that you see there you don't remember an object that might have taken your weight if you'd wanted to know I sat on the windowsill he said on

02:49:05 know I sat on the windowsill he said on the windowsill and presume that I'm assuming that was cool enough for you to say that weird or foggy on so you didn't really consider it wasn't on fire sir

02:49:17 really consider it wasn't on fire sir okay

02:49:23 now you say just after you say I sat on the windowsill and was leaning out and trying to hit what I thought was the window surround can you can you describe for us how you were positioned in terms

02:49:36 for us how you were positioned in terms of your legs and hips legs were inside the room bum was on the window and leaning out right yeah with the hose was

02:49:47 leaning out right yeah with the hose was anybody holding on to you Nick might be no I'm not sure okay and hose so you've got your back or ba equipment

02:49:59 got your back or ba equipment essentially facing a no-show if it was dangling oh it was jammed into the corner right but it was facing that way okay and a jet that you were aiming you

02:50:10 okay and a jet that you were aiming you aiming it the window surround or out of the window the bits that I could see that were on fire and that you've

02:50:21 that were on fire and that you've described before was to the right hand side of the window so the saw what was right hand side to the right hand side of the window is what you had described before on fire

02:50:32 what you had described before on fire which in which I roll if it was on fire said they're right hammers the worst right I was the worst forgive me all right and win which direction did you aim your and your jet I would have

02:50:45 you aim your and your jet I would have said I probably started on the right and went all the way around okay but I can't remember specifics right now um mr. Hennelly I want to show you a very short snapshot of a video taken of the

02:51:01 snapshot of a video taken of the building on fire I'm gonna give the trigger warning mr. chairman usual way and if can I ask the witness first of all are you all right to see a short perhaps repeated once snapshot right

02:51:14 perhaps repeated once snapshot right I'll proceed to do it before I do mr. chairman able to give the usual trigger warning yes what we're going what we're going to see is and this is for the benefit of those in the room and for

02:51:25 benefit of those in the room and for those watching by livestream we're going to see part of the Luke biz beef spread video timed at 1:22 also which

02:51:36 spread video timed at 1:22 also which contains images of the building on fire which some people might find distressing and contains some audio so if anybody does find that distressing then only I would ask them either to take steps to

02:51:47 would ask them either to take steps to cover their eyes and ears or to leave this room will allow a little time for you to do that I'll bore if they're watching by remote livestream then to take themselves away from it for a

02:51:59 take themselves away from it for a moment so I'll wait the my wait 30 seconds or say well people people do that give them an opportunity to get away from it and then we'll proceed and Mister documents director if you could

02:52:10 Mister documents director if you could just queue it up no I'd take that off the screen to the moment just queue it up thank you

02:52:39 I think so what we're going to show you first of all is the clip and I'd like you to look about for what I'd like you to look out for while you're looking at it is the position where you think he

02:52:55 it is the position where you think he would have been in the building I see you're on and you're on the fourth floor and I thank you to account for any signs of movement of water jets if I could put

02:53:06 of movement of water jets if I could put it in neutral II without prompting here can we just play the video no just just

02:53:20 can we just play the video no just just pause there did you see something coming up through the flames from bottom right to top left yeah please

02:53:31 to top left yeah please we just show that again it's about 800 to 2000 2001 22 20 to 21 or so if we could just play that again and I'll shout there okay when it when I see it

02:53:44 shout there okay when it when I see it what I want to ask you about it so if you could just play that again please

02:53:51 we should play once more okay please put the so if you look at the clicker and the arrow is on the cursor and if it's played you can see as as we play through

02:54:03 played you can see as as we play through it's something coming through the flames from the bottom right to the top left if you play it that's what I needed to show

02:54:15 you play it that's what I needed to show you can you help us with what that is

02:54:23 did most of in us yeah is it you say must have been you I would agree but I just want to work out why you say that is that the angle at which you are aiming your jet when you were halfway

02:54:36 aiming your jet when you were halfway out of the window just aiming it around the window right okay I'm slightly puzzled because it seemed to me to be

02:54:48 puzzled because it seemed to me to be rather higher up in the building and yeah I would have expected well that's in a sense my next question well can't necessarily know where it starts but making next question is when

02:55:02 starts but making next question is when you were aiming your water jets how much pressure were you getting and how far could you aim your jet of water I would

02:55:14 could you aim your jet of water I would have been a few feet or would it have been 20 or 30 feet it could have been 20 to 30 feet I don't remember having it on a jet setting I had it more of a spray

02:55:27 right which would have sent the water out like that rather than yeah okay all right would you be probably

02:55:38 right would you be probably exhaustive that subject can I then ask you to take that away then look back at your statement in the fifth parent third paragraph on page four five but you've

02:55:50 paragraph on page four five but you've just been looking at you say three lines down from the start of that paragraph I just saw a square of fire and that is when I noticed all the debris outside the square of fire can you describe

02:56:03 the square of fire can you describe where was this first our Mexico has in I see there's the window frames it yeah right so you make a signal with your hands that transcript doesn't dasari yeah basically shake the window screen without the yes okay the bottom shelf

02:56:18 without the yes okay the bottom shelf okay and you say you noticed all the debris outside and do you mean burning debris or yes everyone had fallen down burning debris right did you see it falling after I noticed it on the ground

02:56:32 falling after I noticed it on the ground yeah then it started for there was a tree outside the window I believe yes and it started to fall into the tree right was there much of it starting to get worse and worse yeah you're right

02:56:43 get worse and worse yeah you're right did you see where it was coming from above how far above did you when you saw that you saw that material coming down

02:56:56 that you saw that material coming down and burning where were you directing your water vision II was still up and then I I think we started strangely I

02:57:07 then I I think we started strangely I think we were worried about the tree catching the light that's why I've had discussions with my barn about afterwards but generally it was more on the building and just on the topic stead

02:57:22 the building and just on the topic stead of of falling burning material if you look at the top of page six you say when I saw the fire around the windowsill I thought it was weird I thought the gas pipe had gone somehow

02:57:34 I thought the gas pipe had gone somehow it just didn't end up in my mind and then you go on a couple of lines down to say I remember looking out of the window and seeing little sparks coming down they were falling through the air they were fizzing at the time I didn't

02:57:46 were fizzing at the time I didn't understand what that was you could hear it and see the little sparks coming on little drops in his stuff that I have never seen before

02:57:57 how big first of all were these were these bits of these drops he's one of our crew members were like water drops Robert had little sparks coming off them

02:58:10 Robert had little sparks coming off them water drops with little packets of it I won't fall to drops but that's what kind of dimensions and it seems have little sparks coming off them right as they were flying through the air as they were

02:58:22 were flying through the air as they were dropping right

02:58:29 and you

02:58:37 you say going back to the bottom of page five having given a description of the fire that you could see there in the

02:58:48 fire that you could see there in the last line you say Nick have a go as well hitting the window from the inside and again it had no effect

02:58:57 did you swap positions and give him the hose or did he did he have his own hose do you remember I don't remember that but I know that we swapped around and what was the effect of him every hurry

02:59:08 what was the effect of him every hurry okay you say I had no effect exactly the same right did he leaned out of the window and trying to extinguish the flames outside he did yes how concerned

02:59:22 flames outside he did yes how concerned how concerned did you feel about what was happening that you could see we thought it was um it was worrying but

02:59:36 thought it was um it was worrying but not obviously nothing on the scale

02:59:43 what did you think was happening we thought it was jumping floors to the next floor what did you think that this burning sparking material I didn't ever

02:59:54 burning sparking material I didn't ever thought it just something that I remember metal right did you did you give any thought yourself to what needed

03:00:05 give any thought yourself to what needed to be done next to deal with what you could see this you say jumping the floor but it's spread of fire did I give any

03:00:16 but it's spread of fire did I give any so I could you give any thought to what needed to be done next to deal with what you could I should do next or what needed to be done by all of you know just trying to spray water okay at

03:00:29 know just trying to spray water okay at that stage when you saw this material falling down through the window frame and the feather hear the sound it was si it wasn't falling through our dag relators falling back in it was just falling down falling down with at the

03:00:40 falling down falling down with at the stage when you could see the material falling down and you could hear the noise of the fire did you have any thought about whether other flats in the building right now have become affected

03:00:51 building right now have become affected by fire we thought it was jumping up to the next floor yes and you say that on page six in the first paragraph you said

03:01:02 page six in the first paragraph you said maybe in the third line maybe it was going up to the floor above what did that tell you about compartment ation way it failed did you communicate with

03:01:19 way it failed did you communicate with the bridge head about what you had just seen did you communicate with the bridge head about the possibility that compartment ation might have failed did

03:01:30 compartment ation might have failed did you have a Barry radio what was that Nick Barton had the Barry oh I can't remember who had the Barry radio you thought you would have still had a fire ground radiator yourself did would you and remember whether that was did you

03:01:42 and remember whether that was did you did you try and send a message from flat from that from flat you know do you know why that why that was having seen this weird sparking fizzing material you know why you didn't tell the

03:01:53 you know why you didn't tell the bridgehead what you'd seen now the only reason I could give was that the other crew had already left and were on the way down to the bridgehead did you

03:02:05 way down to the bridgehead did you discuss what you were looking at with Nick Barton I don't think we had a discussion No

03:02:22 you I think then go back down to the bridgehead and we have in your telemetry data the fact that you closed down at 135 46 and in the last paragraph on page

03:02:41 135 46 and in the last paragraph on page 6 you say you came down and you said in the second line there I said to the next person who was going in we've left the

03:02:52 person who was going in we've left the hose by the kitchen door because we're worried it's going to come back into the flat with that we have collected our tally told the entry control what we've done the fire was out of the flat where we left the hose and that we were

03:03:03 where we left the hose and that we were worried about the fire coming back into the flat just pause there that discussion there you say if you're who you told that you were worried that the

03:03:17 you told that you were worried that the fur might come back into the flat I believe I was talking to a be a crew that were gonna go in Nick was talking to it was in charge of the Bridget I see

03:03:28 to it was in charge of the Bridget I see okay

03:03:31 and did you tell the next be a crew about about the weird behavior of the fire and the noise of the fire that you'd seen in basically I went into

03:03:43 you'd seen in basically I went into specifics though okay do you know whether firefighter Barton told whoever was in charge of the bridgehead at that point what you had both seen in terms of the way the father's behaving on the

03:03:54 the way the father's behaving on the exterior I believed he explained that he thought had gone up to the next flat do you know who was in charge of the bridgehead at that stage as far as I was watching on Joe Keith right so here you

03:04:05 watching on Joe Keith right so here you take it over from crew manager secret during your where yes so is that how you remember it yes okay

03:04:19 [Music]

03:04:22 on your way down from the fourth floor to the second floor where the bridgehead was can do you remember what the conditions were like the air conditions

03:04:37 no I don't think the lobby in on the fourth floor is that smoke locked I don't believe it being heavily smoked and the step a stair okay and what about

03:04:53 and the step a stair okay and what about traffic of people in the stairwell at that point you come down from floor to floor - do you remember whether there are residents coming down I don't remember seeing anyone but that doesn't

03:05:04 remember seeing anyone but that doesn't mean that there wasn't anyone on the stairs then at the top of page seven of your statement you you described you come back to the bridgehead then you say

03:05:16 come back to the bridgehead then you say we went down the stairs you came out of the building via the glass front entrance we came in and you came out you

03:05:32 entrance we came in and you came out you say you looked up at the building looked at each other and just shed just said oh [ __ ] and then you say this looking to my left it looked like the whole side of the building where the window was was a

03:05:43 the building where the window was was a light now you say the whole side of the building I just want to try and get your recollection if I'm looking up as well don't forget yes where were you you're

03:05:54 don't forget yes where were you you're just coming back right so you coming out turn left walking back to our machine so probably coming from South Side just looking up and then you see this the

03:06:06 looking up and then you see this the east side from side to side view I've had the fire do you think on all the way to the top of the tower at that point I wouldn't know I just saw and they look

03:06:21 I wouldn't know I just saw and they look like I said the how would the building but I wouldn't know what floor but yeah a lot the building was a lie but then

03:06:32 a lot the building was a lie but then you say this I had seen the thing in Dubai on the internet a few months before and that sprung to mind afterwards but I've never seen anything like it you say I seen the thing in

03:06:46 like it you say I seen the thing in Dubai on the Internet you have just helped us with that what did you see on the internet under fire in Dubai seen it on YouTube there was a fire in a hotel maybe or the all caught fire in Dubai

03:07:01 maybe or the all caught fire in Dubai hmm and do you know about what had caused that fire no I do know no details is just a clip that I'd seen do you know what caused you to look at that clip no

03:07:17 what caused you to look at that clip no this fire in Dubai was it the subject ever of any discussion around the mess table or discussions between the crew members at North Kenzie at Hammersmith

03:07:29 members at North Kenzie at Hammersmith there's this Dubai file was it something that you had any idea was was even discussed or talked about or was part of another fire forget intelligence or was

03:07:41 another fire forget intelligence or was it just a private thing you happen to happen to you privately right

03:07:59 and

03:08:02 you then say we ran to our machine that's the line or two down we ran to our machine it changed our cylinders

03:08:13 our machine it changed our cylinders able to go back in we realized why they were so many BA whereas waiting to go in I've never seen anything like it in my life just want to ask you and say you're going to be you wanted to be recommitted

03:08:25 going to be you wanted to be recommitted yes and changing cylinders how easy is that to do it pretty easy I mean how can

03:08:38 that to do it pretty easy I mean how can I should evolve how long does that take normally minute two minutes right do you have to do a kind of test it's feisty what is that test five grand a test and

03:08:50 what is that test five grand a test and what does that involve just testing the rest of the equipment works mask yeah all the hoses right

03:09:02 just just I'm sorry to get back it's a question I'm asking out of order I should have asked it before but this do by fire trying to get back to it but you saw it on the Internet can I do you ever receive any training from the lfb about

03:09:16 receive any training from the lfb about what should happen if the Dubai experience were to be repeated in London you know possible that I'm asking the question no there's a Dubai bit of

03:09:31 question no there's a Dubai bit of training on you it's just a clip that I saw on the Internet okay you you say you went back into the building having put

03:09:46 went back into the building having put your EBA on again and you we pick that up at two-thirds of the way down page seven where you say we entered the building and joined the queue you see

03:10:00 building and joined the queue you see that

03:10:07 how easy was it to enter the building in terms of debris falling from the building I don't know well do you recall

03:10:19 building I don't know well do you recall what do you recall about the ease of passage on the ground between your appliance and the entrance to the building there's nothing that sticks out that I can recall so okay and you joined

03:10:33 that I can recall so okay and you joined the queue you say the cue of what be a rose how big was the cue how long was it I don't remember I remember being up on

03:10:46 I don't remember I remember being up on the mezzanine floor and looking out and just seen lots of BA whereas working towards the building when you join the back of the queue when you join the back

03:10:57 back of the queue when you join the back of the queue where was it I believe it is up from the mezzanine floor okay and how many people were there in front of you in the queue before you get got tenants able to check in at the bridgehead I can tell you lots and how

03:11:11 bridgehead I can tell you lots and how long did it take you do you remember between joining the back of the queue and then checking in at the entry control I don't think we checked in at ba in chicken chop right so how would

03:11:22 ba in chicken chop right so how would you alright well let me ask the question are different way how long did it take you do you think between joining the back of the be a queue and arriving at the bridgehead so that you could be

03:11:34 the bridgehead so that you could be recommitted I don't know I remember being in the queue and then I remember the next bit going up to the third floor okay and at the point you when you

03:11:45 okay and at the point you when you re-enter the building and join the queue can you remember what the conditions were like in the lobby terms of the air fine as far as I remember right and what about when you went up the stairs and

03:11:56 about when you went up the stairs and eventually got to the to the bridgehead what were the conditions like there when you

03:12:00 you nothing stands out right now at the bottom of page 7 you say you and you had just handed to be a boards and told to

03:12:11 just handed to be a boards and told to go up to the third floor I have no idea who passed the boards to us they shouldn't really have done that they should have stayed with the boards themselves so we went up to the third floor which was quite a small lobby and put the two boards down who had to do

03:12:24 put the two boards down who had to do the to be a boards do you know I said I don't know and you have said that what was that person a a watch manager or manager or person in command or I don't

03:12:35 manager or person in command or I don't know I just have a recollection of being on the mezzanine and then somebody saying we're moving to the third floor and having a be a board given to me right and the move to the third floor

03:12:47 right and the move to the third floor was that why were you being asked you know to put ba balls on the third floor because they were moving the bridgeheads in the third floor would you remember what kind of time that was I time it just I'd know concepts of time on him

03:13:00 just I'd know concepts of time on him okay and and at that stage do you remember who was in charge of the bridgehead I remember there was what triage O'Keefe was there and I believe watch manager D'Souza from Chelsea I

03:13:12 watch manager D'Souza from Chelsea I don't know who was in charge of it suza could that be - Silvo just sorry - silver - silver so at the time of the the best of your recollection

03:13:23 the best of your recollection Josiah got a fix on this the move from the of the bridgehead from the second to the third floor was at a time when O'Keefe and a silver were running the bridge Hayes was running it they were

03:13:35 bridge Hayes was running it they were both present on the bridge were present on the preacher was do you remember whether there was any more senior officer then manager O'Keefe at that time

03:13:46 time [Music]

03:13:49 and at the time of that move Jim how many other firefighters were there waiting to be committed I'm not a lot I mean I can't obviously you can't be exactly proud of them okay did you have

03:14:04 exactly proud of them okay did you have any impression as to how well the bridgehead was being managed now the

03:14:17 bridgehead was being managed now the move time we've got a time fall of about and it's subject to verification of course but take it from me at the moment to 1302 13 a.m. 13 or thirty thirteen

03:14:30 to 1302 13 a.m. 13 or thirty thirteen one three and would that be roughly in accordance with your recollection as I said time was just right which would be just over an hour concept of time throughout the rest of the night you did

03:14:41 throughout the rest of the night you did say that do you remember who took the decision to move them to move no as I said I've remember being on the mezzanine and then aboard was given to

03:14:54 mezzanine and then aboard was given to me a simple move into the third floor so I moved to the third floor just a couple more questions if I may mr. chairman before we break and come to the end of this topic when you got to the third

03:15:05 this topic when you got to the third floor do you remember what the conditions were like there did you have radio communication on the third floor do you remember I had my handheld radio was it working I hadn't tried to use it

03:15:18 was it working I hadn't tried to use it so obviously the radios were there's a lot of traffic I remember right and then you described on page eggs at the top

03:15:30 you described on page eggs at the top how you operate the board and you do that over the never the first half of page 8 do you remember how long you and

03:15:44 page 8 do you remember how long you and firefighter Barton were operating the two boards that you taken up no I've to see if I stay up at 35 to 45 minutes but I'd say it was fifteen to twenty I see so it's gonna

03:15:57 fifteen to twenty I see so it's gonna ask you that you say you have no concept of time you say thirty five to forty five minutes that's way too long too long okay did anybody take over from you no we cleared those boards right who told you to do that nobody but the BI

03:16:11 told you to do that nobody but the BI whereas will coming that down they were all running out of there so right hmm and was anybody in charge of you on the third viewing while you were running those beers not me personally no Martin

03:16:23 those beers not me personally no Martin okay and in running those VA boards did you have telemetry communication between the boards only VA wearers and there was telemetry between the boards of the behaviors as far as I was aware okay and

03:16:35 behaviors as far as I was aware okay and how many bapa where as did you commit through the VA boards the wedding commit anyone right so well you say okay let me just

03:16:47 so well you say okay let me just understand what you were doing in the fourth line down from the top of page eight you say so NIC it had one board and I had the other and our priority was making sure people on the boards got back out it was our responsibility to get them back down did what does that

03:17:00 get them back down did what does that mean what were you - Lea doing so we were given two boards that were full of BA wearers that were already inside right and it was our responsibility to

03:17:11 right and it was our responsibility to for them to come down and book those ba whereas out pricing and did that involve taking their tallies and putting them back into the Indian sense No so I take my tallies out from the

03:17:22 No so I take my tallies out from the board and putting them into the SS and where was where were these two balls located were they in the stairwell or were they in the third floor lobby as you come up the stairs in the the lift would be over on your right just in the

03:17:34 would be over on your right just in the corner we omit word next to each other I believe Nick recalls crew manager Sefton was there I don't okay mr. John I think that's brought this

03:17:47 mr. John I think that's brought this particular line to an end probably a convenient point for remembers break yes and I think it's been a long morning we might have a slightly

03:17:55 slightly lunch break yes so mr. Honda we're gonna stop now and we're gonna resume at 2 o'clock and please will you not talk about your evidence or anything to do

03:18:06 about your evidence or anything to do with it over the break yes all right thank you very much thank you

03:18:21 two o'clock and please