Evidence from London Fire Brigade Watch Manager regarding their experience responding to the Grenfell Tower fire on the night of 14 June 2017. Testimony covers training, fire spread, and operational decisions.
00:00:04 yes mr. millet No then we're going to hear from next mr. Chairman I now get a call
00:00:11 call watch manager Brian O'Keefe if I may thank you
00:00:15 thank you we please have mr. O'Keefe
00:00:40 yes thank you [Music]
00:00:44 [Music] I swear by Almighty God I swear by Almighty God the evidence I shall give have the evidence I shall give shall be the truth the whole truth thank you very
00:00:59 the truth the whole truth thank you very much mr. O'Keefe you're comfortable giving your evidence standing I take care I'm sir right Thank You mr. minute mr. O'Keefe hello could you please give your full name to the inquiry Brian Anthony
00:01:12 name to the inquiry Brian Anthony O'Keefe and can I say first of all thank you very much for coming to the inquiry to assist us with our investigations we really do appreciate it thank you if you
00:01:24 really do appreciate it thank you if you have any difficulty understanding any of my questions which are supposed to be short and simple and sometimes aren't please tell me and I'll put the question in a different way okay and if at any stage you need a break or you want to
00:01:36 stage you need a break or you want to sit down please feel free just tell us and you can have a break or conquer or sit down if as the case may be can I ask you please first of all to take your statement now you'll have that
00:01:47 take your statement now you'll have that in one of two places first of all there's a blue file in front of you you should find that statement in that blue file in tab yay yeah but we're also going to work it
00:01:58 yeah but we're also going to work it from the screen and on your desk in front of you on your right you'll have a screen there say what we do normally is to throw the script or the statement up onto the screen and highlight this that I'm showing you so your statement is is
00:02:11 I'm showing you so your statement is is any T 0 0 0 1 3 9 6 7 and attached to it or also I think some contemporaneous notes of yours which you've exhibited is
00:02:22 notes of yours which you've exhibited is B okay
00:02:23 B okay one your contemporaneous notes which is M et 0 0 0 0 5 2 8 4 and you've also got some exhibits which are at tap C which
00:02:35 some exhibits which are at tap C which are some notes which you had from the pocket-book I think L which is NFB 0 0 0 0 1 9 2 9 and some control information form in from
00:02:47 form in from which is lfp zero zero zero zero one nine six one I've read those out so that they're read into the record and people can notice them publicly if they want to from now so to start with your statement
00:03:01 from now so to start with your statement which is up there on the screen you'll see it's dated the 5th of March 2018 mr. O'Keeffe have you read it recently I read this morning and can you confirm
00:03:13 read this morning and can you confirm for us that its contents are true they are true have you discussed your statement or ever don't know with anybody today before coming here no no can I start them with your position and
00:03:26 can I start them with your position and your career okay you joined the London Fire Brigade I think in 1993 correctly okay and you've been an active firefighter since then is that right obvious and you were promoted to crew
00:03:39 obvious and you were promoted to crew manager in 1999 yes and I think subsequently promoted to watch manager that's correct when was that watch manager I'm just would have been
00:03:50 watch manager I'm just would have been [Music]
00:03:52 [Music] 2010 or 2011 right and you're currently a watch manager on red watch at Kensington fire that's correct how long have you been at Kensington
00:04:04 how long have you been at Kensington when I went to Kensington I can remember that back as far above 2009 right and they was on the white watch there for
00:04:15 they was on the white watch there for about five years right and I went to chance and Fire Station on to the red watch for a boat about a year and then return again to Kensington and
00:04:28 and then return again to Kensington and before Kensington in 2009 which fire stations in London did you serve from okay so when I left notes bridge his
00:04:39 okay so when I left notes bridge his promotion reasons I went to use to the fire station won't watch and that was in the 1999 and I stayed on the whitewash
00:04:50 the 1999 and I stayed on the whitewash therefore I think here and I was promoted again to sub-officer which is the equivalent of watch manta ray rank at the moment I have a tongue
00:05:01 ray rank at the moment I have a tongue to the blue watch and then I moved to a specialist unit a multi agency even called mostly huge the initial assessment team which was a tri-service
00:05:12 assessment team which was a tri-service point of post-911 where we had the CBRN tref proceed threat yeah working with the police in the Elias and
00:05:23 working with the police in the Elias and then emergent olicity the the fire brigade CBRN team chemical biological radiation nuclear team and I wish again was a specialist humors I went from
00:05:35 was a specialist humors I went from there to doc head fire station so back to a fire station for I think that was I can't know the year 2008 onto the green watch there thank you
00:05:47 watch there thank you it would it be fair to say that you are an extremely experienced by Everton yes well I'm experienced and as at the night
00:05:59 well I'm experienced and as at the night of the 13th 14th of June 2017 mr. O'Keefe what was your your position of rank was it watch manager watch boundary right
00:06:11 now in your statement you say in terms of training that you're classed competent as a watch manager are there different competencies for different ranks there are for a crew
00:06:25 different ranks there are for a crew manager and a watch manager is level one command which I think at office of Mayors up to four which up to four pumps at an incident and level two command
00:06:38 at an incident and level two command would be station manager and the both write more complex incidents and when were you last assessed for your watch manager competence prior to June 2017
00:06:51 manager competence prior to June 2017 when you do a refresher used to be pass or fail nowadays it's it's a sort of mentoring process where you have a account remember the frequency but you
00:07:03 account remember the frequency but you have one day incident command refresher right well you'll be given CBT our computer-based training scenarios where
00:07:15 computer-based training scenarios where you take them out of incidents which have various levels of complexity okay and can you explain what training to be
00:07:29 and can you explain what training to be a watch manager involves what to be watch manager there are various facets incident command being one responding to incidents of various types command and
00:07:43 incidents of various types command and control understanding command and control and then there is the administrative side and Human Resources site so personnel management which is a bit is a very big part of you know yep
00:07:56 bit is a very big part of you know yep and you mentioned incident command are you familiar with the London Fire Brigade incident command policies I am into the command communication plan yes yes okay and did you or have you been
00:08:10 yes okay and did you or have you been trained on those policy I have okay and what training did you receive on those policies
00:08:18 policies prior to all most recently prior to June 2017 but most recently Europe just in general first let's start with general in general when you are conditional or
00:08:32 in general when you are conditional or what you're bringing that will you go for the promotion to the next rank up we say you go on practical exercises where your fault and mentored and assessed and
00:08:46 your fault and mentored and assessed and you take command of simulated incidents with fire engines and personnel and your ability to command control as operational incidence from fires to car
00:08:59 operational incidence from fires to car crashes and etc is developed and assessed and if you look at your statement on page two you say that this
00:09:17 statement on page two you say that this is a quarter of the way down the page the office of development program includes simulated fires in basement and high-rise buildings you see that that is correct
00:09:25 correct yeah and during this I took the role of incident commander and was assessed in terms of command and control and my strategic decision-making in operational tactics when do you think you had the
00:09:39 tactics when do you think you had the officer development program training that you're referring to there can you give a date could I give a Dave
00:09:51 that particular type of training would be the last time I had that with a being a boat I can't give you an exact date it was outside of London and it was about five years ago right did it evolve
00:10:04 five years ago right did it evolve incident command training at a high-rise event yes I can't be absolutely certain but I think so the work the facilities
00:10:17 but I think so the work the facilities were there which are buildings I think it's in Bristol was going to ask you where was it in Britain was a Bristol there I think so on the outskirts of Bristol in an industrial stage where
00:10:28 Bristol in an industrial stage where they had you know sections of Rahway high buildings which weren't really high raised but you will use them to implement highways procedures right to
00:10:41 implement highways procedures right to simulate you know the policy guide is are operating the national operation of guidance policies directives on the tactics that we use the highways virus
00:10:52 tactics that we use the highways virus right and that training that you did at Bristol did it involve a multi pump fire and a fire involving a yes to two appliances which is multi pump well not
00:11:03 appliances which is multi pump well not many they don't they don't have the facilities you'd have to baby-free right did that training involve how to did that rating involve any aspect of
00:11:15 that rating involve any aspect of exterior fire spread on a high-rise bill did any aspect of that training you did involve what a incident commander should do if if compartment ation in the
00:11:28 do if if compartment ation in the high-rise building should fail no did any aspect of that training involve forming an alternative strategy in case the father came out of control on a
00:11:39 the father came out of control on a high-rise building well it was discussed firing fire does breakout compartments we have we have a tactics which involve
00:11:52 we have we have a tactics which involve more than one be a crew having a second crew backing up the first crew for support that's to protect
00:12:01 the firefighters in the compartment for a fighting environment it's also to protect first fires out to address fire spread because it's it's unpredictable
00:12:12 spread because it's it's unpredictable can be unpredictable so the options of using external firefighting although limited with high-rise we will employ
00:12:25 limited with high-rise we will employ the use of covering jets as we call them which is to to address fara Brittany oil of Windows or rubes mainly in domestic
00:12:39 of Windows or rubes mainly in domestic not five ways but low-rise domestic premises site I see okay now in your statement you go on to say this ik that I underwent specific high-rise training
00:12:50 I underwent specific high-rise training within six months prior to Graham felt our listening to to the recent procedural changes and the introduction of the high-rise fire bag you say within six months of Graham filter prior to go
00:13:03 six months of Graham filter prior to go filtered you remember more precisely when that training was given to you not precisely my training records will indicate when that was done it's mainly
00:13:18 the fire bike highways bike came I believe after Grand Vitara as opposed to the forest right but because I don't
00:13:30 the forest right but because I don't recall us having that deployments or that facility on the nice okay so just taking it in stages you say you underwent specific high-rise training with instant for six months prior to
00:13:42 with instant for six months prior to Graham filter do you remember where that training took place at our station right was it was it transform training or was it when it was a classroom training and
00:13:53 it when it was a classroom training and ed familiarization to contents and in trying to see how it feels how to deploy the equipment on us what was the content of the specific my rice training that you record how to use the
00:14:06 you record how to use the mainly it's you know the use there are different items in the in this rocks take rock sack to carry items to the
00:14:18 take rock sack to carry items to the bridgehead right and we just hope to deploy us yeah that's it I see say say the specific her eyes training you had in that period for six months or so prior to grab that was all
00:14:29 months or so prior to grab that was all about the new equipment was it it was all about just theoretical mainly right and what particular equipment what you
00:14:40 and what particular equipment what you mentioned equipment what particular equipment were you being trained on during that that training the well this is after a pursuit it's prior to when players wear Joe we were using the holes
00:14:53 players wear Joe we were using the holes breaking in case be a just in the everything that we use at a bridge showed right what was new about the fire bag that you've referred it was new bonus yeah but you didn't have a grant
00:15:05 bonus yeah but you didn't have a grant that what was new work because it's portability right that hazard avoiding breach controlling a control dividing breach which is a a piece of tubing
00:15:17 breach which is a a piece of tubing metal tubing with one Inlet and two outlets right and with a Libra love controls flow through either sections
00:15:29 controls flow through either sections which and it supposed works it's it's portable small right useful we have door stops these devices which can keep a door open right if we need to
00:15:44 can keep a door open right if we need to hose Packard still if we get a broken hose that we can a hose bandage that we can use those right tags I believe which we can use to identify identifiable
00:15:57 we can use to identify identifiable apartments or locations so we can place on a door and offhand I can't really remember anything else on the bike
00:16:08 remember anything else on the bike there's a branch and the bag a quick attack branch is very nozzle did you have any of that equipment on your pump when you attended Granville - no you didn't know we had its we had we didn't
00:16:19 didn't know we had its we had we didn't have we didn't have the equipment and if the spoke bag they passed right it also has these straps for carrying holes brought and putting the holes under your
00:16:30 brought and putting the holes under your arm rolls oppose you have these straps urging put you with carrying handles which makes it easier to carry but we didn't have that so we would have had
00:16:42 didn't have that so we would have had the items or similar items of equipment separately on the oven fire engine I see okay did you know what prompted the fire bag to be brought in I do it's been
00:16:54 bag to be brought in I do it's been wrong for years people have been you have been making up their own fire bags for years that unofficially right but what made it official what what prompted its me research development right okay
00:17:05 its me research development right okay now
00:17:11 and in terms of training I'm just going to ask you a few more specific questions okay about incident command if I can
00:17:33 were you ever trained as an incident commander on knowledge skills and
00:17:48 commander on knowledge skills and understanding of the impact of fire on a building's construction when it's a high-rise building yes you were yes you
00:18:01 high-rise building yes you were yes you mean the construction of yes not not not the materials we talk about materials but it's more about the tactics we use
00:18:12 but it's more about the tactics we use right and issues surrounding wind currents you know the height of the building where you get stronger winds and Eddie's you know window these how it
00:18:24 and Eddie's you know window these how it can affect fire spread our fire movements or increase your ferocity of a fire so we talked about that we thought about the talk about this but not the
00:18:37 about the talk about this but not the building materials specifically right we have a training package on modern methods of construction which talks about different materials news nowadays as opposed to traditional methods of
00:18:50 as opposed to traditional methods of construction which will steam concrete and in that training on modern methods of construction yes is there any discussion about insulation or cladding or insulation perhaps we're not cladding
00:19:05 or insulation perhaps we're not cladding right when you say installation perhaps what part of the training I mean you know it's it's it's quite an in-depth package training package and I'm not a
00:19:16 package training package and I'm not a builder and he would have to be an engineer to to appreciate the the contents or structural engineer to appreciate the contents of it's not the
00:19:28 appreciate the contents of it's not the content of the package but to get a true appreciation of how these materials interact yet
00:19:35 did you ever get training related to high-rise incidents on the subject of effective call handling and management of fire survival guidance on force or
00:19:48 of fire survival guidance on force or other guidance yes right what was that training and so that training was there's a policy on fire so by the guidance calls and how the operational
00:20:03 officers and firefighters should respond to fire survivor those boards right did you get training on how to communicate with the control room and how to respond to messages from the control room
00:20:14 to messages from the control room correct you did you ever get training so far as high-rise was concerned on evacuation and casualty removal tactics no you didn't know did you ever get
00:20:26 no you didn't know did you ever get training as an incident commander at a high-rise on how you understand when or if a partial or total evacuation strategy might become necessary it's in
00:20:37 strategy might become necessary it's in the policy it's one passenger in a policy I can't remember the number of the policy probably in high-rise as you can maybe tell you a little polishing up with 6 3 3 6 3 3 I've heard you say over
00:20:49 with 6 3 3 6 3 3 I've heard you say over the last week there's a as a particular passage in there which and you have to bear with me on this one it's not a
00:21:02 bear with me on this one it's not a memory test it's always well well as well it says is that in the event that the instant mother thinks that the Stingers estate put policy on a building should be evacuated the officer should
00:21:14 should be evacuated the officer should force contact the office of the watch who's in charge of Brigades control or dispatch and explain the reason why right that person is of that opinion
00:21:26 right that person is of that opinion because it goes against I believe Nash National operational guidance for example if I was in charge of an incident
00:21:33 incident yes I couldn't decide just to evacuate the whole building if I if I was a you know as a as a consider consulting well I suppose
00:21:44 consider consulting well I suppose someone ever seen your rank right and did you ever get training on how to make a judgment about whether to abandon
00:21:57 a judgment about whether to abandon fully or in part a stapled policy no at a high-rise building you never did okay
00:22:13 where you I'm sorry to keep asking the same kind of training there's got a few left it were you ever trained when you got incident commander training about
00:22:24 got incident commander training about how to look out for unexpected failure or non-existence of internal compartment ation in a high-rise blog intern
00:22:36 ation in a high-rise blog intern compartment compartment a ssin in their highways block as in what to do in the event of a failure yes we'll have to look out for and what to do in the event of early unexpected failure not really
00:22:51 of early unexpected failure not really nothing nothing not specifically right did you ever get training in how as an incident commander how to consider the impact of building materials such as plastic or aluminium window frames or
00:23:04 plastic or aluminium window frames or PVC uPVC no not not with specific materials right all of them so for
00:23:15 materials right all of them so for example the virus Forest Service Isis it and it has had and still has issues with sandwich pounds which are filled with
00:23:27 sandwich pounds which are filled with combustible materials out there so they are like they said wall wall section in here and if you wanted to subdivide this room you could bring in a sandwich panel and it has like a veneer yeah contained
00:23:43 and it has like a veneer yeah contained in the beers as well as a filling they're lightweight portable and they're they used quite extensively well I don't if they are still used but extensively in commercial buildings yes and the
00:23:59 in commercial buildings yes and the issue with this particular material became an issue was following a fatality of a firefighter at an incident where if
00:24:11 of a firefighter at an incident where if the on scene you just put his simply fire could travel unseen it within the within the layers of a wall I could lead to a catastrophic collapse right so that
00:24:24 to a catastrophic collapse right so that material I can't remember was caught but that sort of thing we would be told of those because it was of a concern to us yes but not opposed PVC windows right
00:24:36 yes but not opposed PVC windows right and there may be some confusion about the use of the word sandwich panels I just want to be clear is that the same
00:24:47 just want to be clear is that the same in your understanding as an infill panel I don't know I'm asking you well I've never heard the infinite power okay well that's maybe some somebody else can answer that question
00:25:03 but in general terms maybe using the sandwich panels and as an example would you say that you got training in how to look out for particular architectural construction features yeah might promote
00:25:15 construction features yeah might promote the spread of fun yeah yeah Oh issues that concern us are types of Luke structures right materials used some buildings like wood we're talking about
00:25:26 buildings like wood we're talking about that you know particularly on the construction and the issues surrounding glass you know failure of a high-rise building glass planing and causing
00:25:37 building glass planing and causing either debt or injury yes and these are all at building tiers that would concern us operationally that we would address in training and discussed on the extensive the in training and operationally to both rose
00:25:50 stone it's all more traditional stubble of we are concerned about stone how that reacts to it in fires in steel when it fails spawning of concrete but not about
00:26:02 fails spawning of concrete but not about and PVC windows nor PVC window and did you ever get training as an incident commander attending a high-rise as to what to as to risks that posed by
00:26:17 what to as to risks that posed by exterior cladding systems no have you heard of a fire at Shepherds caught I've heard of was here did you attend a channel called you didn't are you aware
00:26:28 channel called you didn't are you aware of any education slideshow training package or program or any intelligence that the London Fire Brigade was was
00:26:39 that the London Fire Brigade was was giving people about the lessons learnt from shepherds cord but now if you go back to your statement at page two
00:26:52 you say that you attended a serious fire and trilling tower just halfway down that's correct yeah I was in April and that was in April yeah that's my first
00:27:05 that was in April yeah that's my first question was in April and 2017 so just up to six weeks or so before six weeks before we're over and you say you have you incident commander on this instance
00:27:16 you incident commander on this instance I was yes
00:27:19 were there any particular lessons that you use an incident commander took away from entrelac tower yeah the war what could you just tell us what they were do you want to know why what happened and
00:27:31 you want to know why what happened and the lesson okay just it's it's singe in brief terms your brief term was with the take Isis okay I just tell you very briefly as decent commander there's a
00:27:42 briefly as decent commander there's a fire on the 27th floor fully vented farming the frames of cameos I was quite a well developed for amides you know quite a big fire and the
00:27:55 you know quite a big fire and the trolley tour has a wet rising main system with it with pumps system about Pump Room and within the building and when I went there and when the
00:28:09 when I went there and when the bridgehead asked for water the pumps had failed
00:28:19 so without naturally means is that we couldn't get water to the fire floor and that was for Lily well I think there's no 25 minutes while we were trying to fix the problem with the pump so we're not pump
00:28:30 with the pump so we're not pump engineers so I said someone enough another officer was there but a brief fixes and I increased the attendance to eight pumps the listener learners is to
00:28:42 eight pumps the listener learners is to practice for failure of pumps in their highways buildings and we discussed it I discussed the issue afterwards with senior officers who came to see me at the station they wanted my opinion on
00:28:55 the station they wanted my opinion on how we would address that particular problem it's more I hadn't faced before right can I just follow up on that so did anybody at that incident when you realize the wet rising pump had failed
00:29:09 realize the wet rising pump had failed seek information from the building owner or agent yes one of my officers was detailed to speak to the concierge right
00:29:22 detailed to speak to the concierge right we didn't have much information we saw a log plans he was a premises information box to locate the the pump from I wasn't familiar with shredded tows not on my on my stations ground and we looked for
00:29:38 my stations ground and we looked for information is what we did we looked for information to remedy the problem and in the end who gave you the information about about the pumps said that you
00:29:50 about about the pumps said that you could get them fixed well it was in the end the resumed fixed by you I think more looked and then anything else not so turned up and he arrived at the scene I should say and he I don't have a
00:30:03 I should say and he I don't have a photograph of the pump room where they were quite a load valves and switches and he just kept on trying different things and by luck I think more than German look and judgment his experience
00:30:15 German look and judgment his experience officer we managed to get the pumps walking but it was deemed there wasn't an investigation as you would expect afterwards and it was a component of the of the pomp Senate had actually failed
00:30:26 of the pomp Senate had actually failed as defective so he was able to bypass the failure I'll part and found but it took 25 minutes to do right was there any information about the wet
00:30:38 was there any information about the wet rising main pump on the operational database or the mobile data terminal that was that was a trash the location of us was the only information right
00:30:49 of us was the only information right teeth not how to repair it no no do you think the information you had on the operational risk database or the mobile data terminal was enough to enable you to sort the problem out not
00:31:02 enable you to sort the problem out not for a defective continent would you expect it to be I would know well he waited for the pump problem to be sorted out was there to remember what was there
00:31:13 out was there to remember what was there an evacuation of patrolling tower in whole or in part people were self evacuating I think the firefighters I
00:31:24 evacuating I think the firefighters I can't recall actually what the people were self evacuating right how many staircases are there at relic I go for a
00:31:35 staircases are there at relic I go for a hazard a guess 527s I think they're probably no three floors above that so maybe target froze I can't remember how many how many stairs how many escape stair stair routes I draw the call right
00:31:48 stair stair routes I draw the call right now on page two
00:31:58 you've just discussed Trellick a little bit lower down in the same paragraph you say I've attended many possibly hundreds of rice fires during my career yes grant felt our would have had a generic
00:32:09 grant felt our would have had a generic high-rise firefighting plan which would include procedures when fire escapes a compartment could you just explain about this generic firefighting plan where
00:32:23 this generic firefighting plan where would this plan be found on the operation of this database I see okay and when you speak of a generic firefighting plan can you just explain
00:32:34 firefighting plan can you just explain what you what do you mean well the generic firefighting plan is new high-res poster for inhaler fire highways firefighting procedures for the legionary plan right so in and the
00:32:46 legionary plan right so in and the operational just operational risk database part of the information that you would get from that you know along with hazards and the size of the billion dimensions and location of hydrants and
00:33:00 dimensions and location of hydrants and so on you will have a tactical plan so the officer completing would be able to I'm sorry looking at it would be able to see if there are any specific features
00:33:14 see if there are any specific features or unusual also you know they would state if the building had I haven't seen the plan but if we have a stay put
00:33:27 the plan but if we have a stay put policy or a procedure or where the alarm panel might be locations so what to do the events of attending right let me to see if I can show you what we've got for
00:33:38 see if I can show you what we've got for grenfell okay what you've been told there is for grenfell and to see if it's what you would recognize as what you call a generic high-rise firefighting plan if you could please go to tab 13 of the bundle mister documents manager tab
00:33:51 the bundle mister documents manager tab 13 of the
00:33:53 13 of the there should be the ORD and it's lfb quadruple zero three one one six to see if I can follow this up a little bit there it is on the screen l at the ORD
00:34:06 there it is on the screen l at the ORD is that kind of document familiar to you straight Keith there's and turning the pages that's the first page you'll you'll see from the top of the first
00:34:18 you'll see from the top of the first page is dated 15th of February 2017 and if you go on any it's three pages in it if you come to something called tactical
00:34:29 if you come to something called tactical plan that's that is the chair let's just get there that's the address and your hazards and then you could turn to the
00:34:41 hazards and then you could turn to the next page please says there's something called tactical plan she looks like it was effective from the 30th of October 2009 and then documented on the same day
00:34:55 2009 and then documented on the same day just looking at that is a document is that a familiar kind of document it is very use the same template for all our
00:35:07 very use the same template for all our premises we are you business right so it has you know J as standardized template right canvas asking if it had been updated after 2009 would you expect the
00:35:22 updated after 2009 would you expect the date in the top box where you see the date effective from of the date document it to be itself updated or will it still hold the October a9 date well the it
00:35:36 hold the October a9 date well the it would be dated from Tainan is updated
00:35:40 right and
00:35:45 okay do you remember ever seeing this document do you remember ever seeing this particular document is not operational day-to-day no I mean I may
00:35:56 operational day-to-day no I mean I may have seen us but there are so many operational plans there are many many premises I couldn't recall specifically seeing the one for Cornell was going to
00:36:07 seeing the one for Cornell was going to ask you on the night of the fire either on route or at theme no I don't get time to wear because I was in contact up where on roofs I was in Condon we're
00:36:18 where on roofs I was in Condon we're discussing the location with my crew and as I got well I'm sure he's asked me anyway but as they got nearer to the premises trying to contact the incident commander right in your experience as
00:36:33 commander right in your experience as doing the best you can with this document dated 13 October 2009 would it be would it be normal to leave an operational risk database not updated
00:36:45 operational risk database not updated for seven years we're saying okay premises are assessed on the scale of risk and that particularly life risk as
00:36:58 risk and that particularly life risk as well and we found that risk assessment we have a schedule and depending on the
00:37:12 we have a schedule and depending on the challenging the challenges are the risk parameters would be meet the visitors within a certain time frame right so for
00:37:26 within a certain time frame right so for example their high-risk premises would as I recall needs to be with visitors what it would be a four times a year one once per watch one visit per watch per
00:37:38 once per watch one visit per watch per year so that's four watches understand forever the end so that would be very high-risk premises right but those are 72 D visits there are 720 visits just
00:37:50 72 D visits there are 720 visits just just in terms of this document there before
00:37:53 before you say on statement that it would have a generic firefighting high-rise firefighting plan which would include procedures where a fire escapes a compartment now given that this is the kind of document you're talking about I
00:38:05 kind of document you're talking about I just wonder whether we can together search for the plan which would include procedures when a fire escapes a compartment well ordinarily the in the tactical plan
00:38:19 well ordinarily the in the tactical plan you would list the type of policies applicable to that premises right so you
00:38:32 applicable to that premises right so you would list for highways firefighting possibly compartment for a compartment a our compartment firefighting or firefighting compartments I see another
00:38:43 firefighting compartments I see another form part of the tactical plan anyway lists unusual aspects are challenges that you might face at that particular address I see I just wonder whether we can together find any reference in this
00:38:55 can together find any reference in this document even generically to procedures when a fire escapes a compartment do you on that page there where you see site details can you see any details of that nature just go through a number of
00:39:07 nature just go through a number of people at risk operational hazards
00:39:11 communications fixed installations well I could see one issue they are Co under effect right what does that tell you well that's one effect is describes
00:39:28 how far we travel out of the window or an aperture on the building and I may be incorrect you and what it's one defect
00:39:39 incorrect you and what it's one defect is how far we'll move along the surface of the building and that that would indicate that that would be an issue for crews to watch out for when they when they attend it is is the calendar effect
00:39:53 they attend it is is the calendar effect of an effect that you invariably find on a high-rise no except it's a better possibility as a possibility okay and if you turn the page
00:40:06 okay and if you turn the page mr. documents director and then look at these three items root access site access and then on route considerations D do you see anything there which could constitute procedures when a fire
00:40:18 constitute procedures when a fire escapes the compartment because I
00:40:40 No and when it says this building up at the bottom under on reconsideration this building has a stay put policy how much
00:40:51 building has a stay put policy how much would that tell you that would tell me that the building has a policy or the
00:41:03 that the building has a policy or the the policy for people in the building is theirs or the advice I should say is that in the event of a flat fire people should not evacuate the building you
00:41:15 should not evacuate the building you know and thus that the building has a structure that would prevent fire spread here compartmentalizes that's how I
00:41:31 here compartmentalizes that's how I would interpret that information right have people that saw it just put it simply in one sentence in the event of a fire people are being advised are the advice to give him his estate was right not people in the fire
00:41:44 estate was right not people in the fire department do understand do you know whether there was any procedure for what would happen if a fire escapes a
00:41:55 would happen if a fire escapes a compartment in place for Grenville tower itself no did when you attended on the night did you ask whether there was such a procedure in place no why why I advise
00:42:11 a procedure in place no why why I advise that why didn't it was I was focused on them operations I was focused on gathering information on what what was on fire where are people involved and
00:42:24 on fire where are people involved and any other issues that were needed to be addressed operationally I was focused on there on then deploying my crews and
00:42:37 there on then deploying my crews and going to the bridge to take walk dare to take over the bridgehead to support watch manager told the incident commander that absolutely and we'll come to that in some detail in the open in a minute before we do can I just ask you
00:42:49 minute before we do can I just ask you still on on your experience mr. O'Keefe at page two of your statement two the way down just before the second last paragraph break you say after the fire
00:43:00 paragraph break you say after the fire at Latin or house in 2009 we received extensive training in calendar effect and high-rise fire fighting with an emphasis on fire spread yeah I was
00:43:11 emphasis on fire spread yeah I was theoretical training that was my next question
00:43:14 question yeah the last we had three better than training right yeah okay well classroom at Kensington was it well to be honest with you it was documents but the main package was that
00:43:27 documents but the main package was that the lack and all presentation and it wasn't so much as a training packet more package more than a familiarization package right so he gave an audio-visual
00:43:38 package right so he gave an audio-visual description of events from the beginning of the fire to the spread of the fire to the operational response to the cause and effect of why the fire spread and
00:43:52 and effect of why the fire spread and it's quite a big training package to point out the material to take in but he described what effect or what could
00:44:03 described what effect or what could happen
00:44:04 happen sheriff I break out and if the conditions were such that it would promote the spread of fire and first of
00:44:16 promote the spread of fire and first of all how many times will never you'll see it differently when was the training that you've just referred to I don't part of the year specific days
00:44:27 I don't part of the year specific days was it did you get it once or was it a repeated course
00:44:36 when the actual presentation was once and then it would also I brought two included in the training I would give to my watch and in discussion while reading
00:44:52 my watch and in discussion while reading policy and descriptions of what have well happens and it would be our consideration as a consideration because
00:45:03 consideration as a consideration because that was quite a catastrophic event and how to deal what you talked about exterior fire spread in any part of that
00:45:14 exterior fire spread in any part of that course I thought I would say made aware of what is it that you became aware of as a result of that cause oh well you know that the say the day was a hot day
00:45:28 know that the say the day was a hot day well he was windows open and the Kawada effect that was the I want say buzzword but I was the word I was used quite regularly as one of the reasons internal
00:45:42 regularly as one of the reasons internal internal smoke and fire spread as well with a common walkways and part and pathways or hallways I should say could
00:45:55 pathways or hallways I should say could you remind me of the questions raised but let me also get a slightly different way did the course address in particular what happens when a fire in a high-rise block it spreads outside its what happens strike what happens
00:46:07 happens strike what happens it describes will happen did it teach you on did it teach you about tactics no now really tactics more than awareness as I said it wasn't really a training
00:46:18 as I said it wasn't really a training package we didn't specific say this or they didn't say this is what you do to address this issue other than to use the
00:46:31 address this issue other than to use the aerial appliances as water towers which we do anyway but it wasn't a specific training package
00:46:42 package and how recently prior to grenfell tower
00:46:53 and how recently prior to grenfell tower did any part of that package get delivered or redeliver to you as a training package it wasn't it wasn't content to another subject which is prior visits to Grunfeld tower you cover
00:47:04 prior visits to Grunfeld tower you cover this at the bottom of page two and the top of page three of your statement you say I've been to Grenfell tower on two previous occasions in the last 12 months both to automatic fire alarm evacute
00:47:15 both to automatic fire alarm evacute activations when you say last 12 months do I assume the 12 months prior to the fire yes okay and automatic fire alarm activations that I think we understand from other witnesses is where the fire
00:47:26 from other witnesses is where the fire alarm goes off and and that's communicated to you remotely through a station to a controller or station you remove these water controls they was
00:47:37 remove these water controls they was from from well from a control that connected to ground phone tower yes I would say alarm system so then they would send us the notification as
00:47:48 they would send us the notification as an emergency to respond to an automatic firearm actuator and I'm bored a cage w10 there was no incident at the up north on both occasions did you actually
00:48:00 north on both occasions did you actually go into the building only as far as the lobby we could get beyond the lobby as you chose but first the the force location I couldn't get into the building itself because of security had
00:48:11 building itself because of security had to wait for a resident and I'm the second occasionally gunfire as far as the lobby and eventually some of the guys got upstairs when the resident left them in there was no audible alarm
00:48:23 them in there was no audible alarm activating obviously unborn patients right you say on the first occasion you have to wait wait for a resident why was that to get a fob key problem you get a fob here right how long did you have to
00:48:34 fob here right how long did you have to wait I don't recall right and too long it might be too long did that tell you anything about what might have to happen if you were summoned to grab your tower in the event of a real fire well it did
00:48:48 in the event of a real fire well it did I mean
00:48:50 I mean the fire brigade attends incidents regularly premises which are borrowers are shot are secured and we great those rights people breaking the glass or we break for you whatever door is right and
00:49:01 break for you whatever door is right and it would slow to stone but we wouldn't go in there okay and if you needed to find if up key in a hurry where would you look fob please well if there was a concierge they're asking concierge if
00:49:12 concierge they're asking concierge if there's no concierge service it's only raiser that's really right or let's say without or not a concierge I think you'll say you're reliant on the residents to give you a fob keys or a keyboard or a responsible person right so the what the farmer he does is that
00:49:24 so the what the farmer he does is that in the the court to address when we can't get access to we sent a message to our control requests in attendance of key holder right which is a person who will either could live nearby or
00:49:36 will either could live nearby or remotely to bring us a key to the lowest access and in your experience does that tend to hold things up yeah does is that a problem it can be a problem yes
00:49:53 now in the fourth line down from the top of page three first main paragraph you say I thought grant felt our was a new building that was the impression I got
00:50:04 building that was the impression I got from looking at it um when he went how good a look did you did you get at the exterior I had a good look at the exterior right did you notice anything
00:50:17 exterior right did you notice anything about the exterior I did attend a good moral look to us plasticky you know song thing you get where with more than those glass and plastic or some plastic he's
00:50:28 glass and plastic or some plastic he's saying a lot of the next sentence I wasn't aware of the exterior had cladding no I told was a new build throws a new build yeah I wasn't aware Matt no I know it was the seventies
00:50:41 Matt no I know it was the seventies building but because there had been
00:50:47 fitted with a new exterior it looked to me like an you like a modern a modern construction okay
00:50:59 when you went along did you look that any active or passive fire safety measures Oh
00:51:08 as I said previously we couldn't get into the building and when we did we couldn't get access there's a ventilation system there are something
00:51:19 ventilation system there are something like the ventilation system which wasn't working properly there four times I was there right but passive or active systems no nothing's wrong in the third paragraph down to one third
00:51:33 in the third paragraph down to one third of the way down page three you say we could never get any information when we attended we couldn't we just really there was never any response from the persons responsible for the building
00:51:45 persons responsible for the building that's possibly a telephone number there but we never managed to speak to anyone no one ever picked up we did try but no one ever responded now just I show you all of that this one got some question these are I think lead ok these are the
00:51:57 these are I think lead ok these are the two occasions or so you went along in the foot twelve months prior to the ground felt our fire is that is that right that's correct right and on each
00:52:08 right that's correct right and on each occasion did you try to get hold of somebody not me personally I don't carry them although formally Glick we're trying to fund the scene right I call a number it was a number on that believe
00:52:19 number it was a number on that believe on the summer on the building right and to call an event of you need to get a responsible person they're saving pieces three say one of your crew wearing the
00:52:30 three say one of your crew wearing the number that was correct apparently available right and what happened no answer no response what time of the day was boat was both visits very you forgot to tell you that when it was oh no one
00:52:42 to tell you that when it was oh no one was that nice what was the night yeah okay and the other you remember I don't recall it and you say we never managed to speak to anyone no one ever picked up so what happened to the number just ring off or ring out but we would would
00:52:55 off or ring out but we would would another would ring off yes and we will continue our investigations right which put him through the 360-degree
00:53:05 walk around the building to look for any visual signs of our they untoward and speak to residents and as best investigate as best as we could without
00:53:16 investigate as best as we could without getting access to the Berlin right do you remember whether the number that that the fire brigade was supposed to ring in order to get hold of somebody on those occasions was a name or
00:53:29 those occasions was a name or organization attached to it I think in our own organization and I can't recall okay and did the fact that you couldn't
00:53:40 okay and did the fact that you couldn't hold of the name or organization was that something that you went back to the station and and recorded then he was spoke to my colleagues of Moses I think I spoke to Volquez into the boulders
00:53:52 I spoke to Volquez into the boulders right I don't recall it January Nia if I spoke to any individual did you did you raise it with your station manager at Kenseth I spoke to other offices of
00:54:03 Kenseth I spoke to other offices of those that we couldn't get any access their boots it's not uncommon it's not uncommon to have contact numbers at buildings which donors to the forum
00:54:14 buildings which donors to the forum recall that's not uncommon he says no in common is it uncommon when the building is owned by the local authority so is it uncommon that there
00:54:30 authority so is it uncommon that there are as in common that we wouldn't get an answer yes yes in common that you wouldn't get to know that's correct yeah sometimes you would get there you will get an answer and depending on the premises you write you might get a 24
00:54:42 premises you write you might get a 24 hour answer our announcers quite often not
00:54:59 on your previous visits do you remember whether you saw a panel or premises information box or some source of
00:55:11 information box or some source of information no I didn't we would look for information and it was just a wall plate or with a number or a sticker with a number right if you needed the plans for
00:55:24 number right if you needed the plans for grenfell tower urgently did you know where you might be able to find operational risk database on the MDT on our mission our appliances right there should be a plan on the building what
00:55:37 should be a plan on the building what okay what kind of detail of plan would you normally expect there to be of a building like grenfell dimensions and three floor layout right our floors they
00:55:48 three floor layout right our floors they have types of layers to actually fits a wood you have a fur a simple line drawing right more than a an hour's extra so we prefer a less detail right
00:56:01 extra so we prefer a less detail right so we can clearly see the shape in William where access and egress is and so on right so you got your evidence you would normally expect the ard for a
00:56:13 would normally expect the ard for a high-rise to contain a simple line drawing of the plans there is there is a place in it for plans if the plan is available they're not always available I see
00:56:33 you say two-thirds of the way down page three there was a ventilation system in the building yeah and you go on to
00:56:45 the building yeah and you go on to explain that it was a unusual one you say it appeared unusual because it seemed to kick in and out and create this wind this pressure within the lobby area it caught my attention when I was there because it was like the building
00:56:57 there because it was like the building was breathing there was a mechanical sound and wind which came from above it was like an exhalation a pressure of wind and an inhalation there was strange I've never experienced it before this happened even when the lobby doors were
00:57:09 happened even when the lobby doors were closed
00:57:11 he said I've experienced ventilation systems before and it sounded like a ventilation system that was misfiring or wasn't working properly it was like a slow-paced sigh where the exhalation
00:57:22 slow-paced sigh where the exhalation lasted four to five seconds then it was stopped and there would be a whooshing noise and an inhalation and I read that out of him in full - you say say that
00:57:33 out of him in full - you say say that everyone could pay attention to it but but but he is that something you've never experienced before no
00:57:46 you say not and and is that something you recorded when you got back to Kensington in no way did you did your crewmates hear it as well yes did you
00:57:59 crewmates hear it as well yes did you discuss it between you always Yama's always on border pages as we discussed us yeah strange another odd system to have in a building
00:58:10 another odd system to have in a building but he didn't get to the bottom of what it might well no he did you raise this strange breathing system with my fellow
00:58:21 strange breathing system with my fellow office resume did you raise that we go station manager no she was that you know I didn't think that I didn't think is they had any great relevance to tell me
00:58:34 they had any great relevance to tell me did when you went there did you see a an automatic operating vent panel system no I didn't see anything I came from above Ballmer heads in the lobby and was I
00:58:48 Ballmer heads in the lobby and was I didn't see a panel okay so nobody showed you how to operate the AO visas okay
00:59:00 at the top of page 4 well before I go on could I just ask you something at you mr. Chairman I gotta do this and I think we'll probably take a break after my right hand
00:59:11 right hand you saved never been on a 72d visit to North Kensington sure grandpa turns it to particular grateful town can I just
00:59:26 to particular grateful town can I just ask you to look it at the policy which is policy 6 3 3
00:59:44 which you'll find in tab
00:59:52 four of the policies one
00:59:59 and they want us to ask you about Appendix 1 which is on page 19 of 28 are you familiar with that list well that's
01:00:12 you familiar with that list well that's a parent seer for the moment let me put the question again I'm sorry well they gave you gave away appendix 172 D are you familiar with that appendix I am how do you have training
01:00:24 appendix I am how do you have training on on on it on how to go about making yourself familiar with the features in it training on-the-job training yes
01:00:36 it training on-the-job training yes right and theoretical training for meeting policies now it it says during 72d visits personnel should ensure they are familiar with the following and
01:00:47 are familiar with the following and their impact on firefighting and search and rescue operations in your experience as a watch as a crew manager then watch manager here in London and latterly in Kensington when he went on a 72 d visit
01:01:00 Kensington when he went on a 72 d visit would you go through all of these items on me on the checklist making sure that you that the visiting personnel were familiar with all of them or would you just go to one or two or a selection
01:01:37 you would go to most of myself is if not all of them thank you can I then get
01:01:49 all of them thank you can I then get back to your statement ask you to look at the top of page four
01:01:59 I think we've probably covered this which is your difficulty in accessing the building but then in the second paragraph you say a normal route into such a building would be foot for us
01:02:13 such a building would be foot for us would be very drop key access where we have a lift key you say so the drop key is the same as the lift key is it expressed lifting okay because it's the
01:02:25 expressed lifting okay because it's the same it's the same thing and where would you if you were attending an event an incident would you have a express key with you on the appliance yes right
01:02:40 with you on the appliance yes right which nearly the firefighters carry their own right okay say ordinarily firefighters carry the rain but there's also one is this right on the appliance it should be one yes and with that key
01:02:52 it should be one yes and with that key obviously it's an express key for the lift but would it also give you access into the building through an electronic security fob system though right so what is a drop key since there's no Express
01:03:05 is a drop key since there's no Express card it's a key when you put into the aperture a part of the key is hinged and the drops down and it activates the lock mechanism I see or in the event of
01:03:19 mechanism I see or in the event of opening front door yeah overrides electronic system not every premises was something from purses out okay so the drop key which is this express key it has two functions that's it gets you
01:03:31 has two functions that's it gets you past an electronic security system so get you access to it and also will operate the lift hmm yes or I can open the lift all okay
01:03:42 hmm yes or I can open the lift all okay because any other lifts type of lift right
01:03:50 and what would the procedure be if there was no drop key available to get you past the electronic security system well
01:04:03 past the electronic security system well there's a couple of things you can do you can press every buzzer on the if there are pauses there everybody make everybody a part just call everybody which is what I normally do right well if you how you have to get inside so we
01:04:14 if you how you have to get inside so we try all the pauses on the front door for us if there are multiple buzzes on one if not with their contact control to get a key holder if there's no key holder
01:04:26 a key holder if there's no key holder available which is quite often the case nowadays we will try and gain access to the building in other ways you know by opening a window which way not to cause
01:04:38 opening a window which way not to cause too much damage it's only I suppose the only other option is to break the front door which we have powers to do under the fire services act we can everything
01:04:49 the fire services act we can everything there's a fire inside but just for an alarm actuation it's unlikely that you would break a break pause any breakage so the options are residents by
01:05:02 so the options are residents by contacting them by buying the front door bell or control to get a key holder or make an entry to another means right yes
01:05:17 make an entry to another means right yes thank you very much mr. chairman very good point for a break I'm about to turn to a totally different right good break now yes sir ten minutes and please don't discuss two arrivals with anyone
01:05:28 don't discuss two arrivals with anyone else
01:05:29 else and we'll resume at 20 past 3:00 okay give the ocean
01:05:41 but 24th Street
01:05:51 you
01:16:37 [Music]
01:17:04 witness recoup happy to carry on yes thank you very much mr. O'Keefe I was going to ask you a little bit more about this breathing ventilation system that you described so graphically at the foot
01:17:16 you described so graphically at the foot of page three of your statement can I just take you back to it's just two lines up from the bottom if I skipped ahead a bit that I need to get back you say there were no audible alarms under
01:17:30 say there were no audible alarms under this system and it appeared that people were quite nonchalant about it who are the people that you're authorized the residents and the building people the building people and residents in went on
01:17:42 building people and residents in went on to say the okay the residents what what about builders did you see any builders or no no so the people you're referring to a residence okay getting back to training and and training in stay put
01:17:59 training and and training in stay put were you ever trained in what you should do if stay put was to be abandoned or departed from and evacuation fall apart
01:18:13 adopted as a strategy instead no only what I read in the policy right but were you ever trained on what you should do if you decide will stay put it's not
01:18:24 if you decide will stay put it's not working we need to do something else were you ever trained on or something else no right after Lacan or was there any training or increased awareness as
01:18:35 any training or increased awareness as to the safety or security of maintaining a stay put policy there was ever mentioned previously the grenfell
01:18:47 mentioned previously the grenfell outside the lac and all presentation right I think it's called and will you aware of the stay-put policy in its
01:18:58 aware of the stay-put policy in its wisdom and say and safety being revisited but as a result of the coroner's recommendations are a lakyn all house it was certainly a point
01:19:11 lakyn all house it was certainly a point for a discussion amongst operational stuff but not training okay [Music]
01:19:19 [Music] just before the break we looked also at that long list of things that you're supposed to look out on the 72 d visit in your experience when you go on a 72 d visit and you look at the things some or
01:19:31 visit and you look at the things some or all of them on the list that we looked at
01:19:33 at there's Appendix 1 to policy 633 which what would your normal practice be as a as a as a watch manager on such a visit when you've done a visit once you got
01:19:45 when you've done a visit once you got back to the station what would you do with the information put it on the system the fire computer station computers like put on the operational
01:19:57 computers like put on the operational risk database so operators right Andy so for example if there were changes or something new or a notable risk a new
01:20:10 something new or a notable risk a new personal new responsible person you would add that to the lid you will update the operation on this database with animation and when you were doing a 1750 visit going around the building looking at these various features which
01:20:22 looking at these various features which you would you take a notebook round with you and note what you were seeing take a risk matrix so it's a list of
01:20:33 risk matrix so it's a list of identifiable risks or hazards loss to the template with you which is a hard
01:20:47 the template with you which is a hard copy of the operational risk database so you will firm the blank spaces with the information on water supplies hazards
01:20:59 information on water supplies hazards residency and so on what about any particular hazards that you happen to see you would you've no as a section on hazards right
01:21:10 you've no as a section on hazards right moving forward then to the call-out to grenfell tower yes you deal with this in the last cut one paragraph on page four
01:21:26 then in the last paragraph you say we will mobilize that arrow 55 hours on the 14th of June but before you done that
01:21:37 14th of June but before you done that you say you have detailed all the jobs out to the individuals that's in the last but one paragraphs can you explain what you mean when you when you say you've detailed all the jobs out to the
01:21:49 you've detailed all the jobs out to the individuals how was that done in the fire brigade we have roll call at the commencement of the shift RGV
01:22:01 commencement of the shift RGV where the rolls individual rolls are allocated to firefighters and jobs where you know station routines routine
01:22:13 you know station routines routine routine work requirements and so forth are quite we do that as a watch commander so you have roll call and that's it you make sure everybody's
01:22:25 that's it you make sure everybody's present and you give the individuals their instructions right
01:22:32 and where were you do you remember when you receive the mobilization call I was upstairs in the mess and you say in the last paragraph in the first line the
01:22:45 last paragraph in the first line the audible alarm sounded over teleprinter started to print out the message where is the teleprinter in the kg Lincoln wrong floor office right stroke watch room it's normally in the washroom which
01:22:56 room it's normally in the washroom which is a lot of fire stations a separate room desk a computer screen and a printer and when we are dispatched or
01:23:12 printer and when we are dispatched or informed of an incident all of the legs automatically come on the station and there is an audible instruction on us to respond doesn't tell you what to
01:23:24 respond doesn't tell you what to responding to are being mobilized to source of more glazing what it says mobilizing overlays so that's audible and then the the assigned duty person
01:23:41 and then the the assigned duty person which is awesome from the from the on duty watch an operational firefighter would go with the driver to the temperature where this information has been printed or available and make an
01:23:59 been printed or available and make an assessment and respond dispatch the clients because a [Music]
01:24:08 a response you have you have to acknowledge an acknowledgement button on the screen so that control know that you've read the message does that make you state as one no you are staying this
01:24:22 you state as one no you are staying this one already many of us when you have a fire station stay this one is when you're not responding to an incident I see you are available they're available but haven't responded right the crew
01:24:33 but haven't responded right the crew would then go to the fireplace or fire engine and there's a button box or asagi is a computer screen touchscreen on the
01:24:44 is a computer screen touchscreen on the fire engine with various stages numbers and status to when this is pressed and forms control that the appliance is mobile to the incident and when the
01:24:57 mobile to the incident and when the printer went did you go and pick up the message not me personally I went to the fire engine I look I left on the phone the screen at the information did somebody bring you the message one of
01:25:08 somebody bring you the message one of the firefighters brought me a message striker and you said you did it on the screen do you read what the message said I don't exactly fire I did set fire and
01:25:20 I don't exactly fire I did set fire and the address it gave me fire the address did it did he give you any other information and the map reference who was attending yes only appliances that
01:25:32 was attending yes only appliances that were attending are being mobilized to the incident right time of call a total mobilization and the insert number okay
01:25:44 mobilization and the insert number okay and you said the bottom of the page page for mister line up from the bottom he and firefighter pitbull miss the motor driver and firefighter Hippel were
01:25:55 driver and firefighter Hippel were looking at the map first of all the motor driver I think that's bet so far part of robbery that's firefighter bent on the page robbery yes we have to be Kepler tube operates and I'm aware of that here he's been and he and firefighter Hipple were
01:26:08 been and he and firefighter Hipple were looking at the map which mat were they looking at well they so in the washroom we're gonna large-scale map right which the firefighters used we use to
01:26:20 which the firefighters used we use to identify instant locations so it's a large like you would find it in the eh-2-zed it's a street map okay and they were looking on the map to try and
01:26:34 were looking on the map to try and locate the air the instant address and
01:26:43 is it normal not to be able to locate a property from the information that comes through on the Lobos no it can be if the information is big right now that you didn't go on and you in the third
01:26:55 didn't go on and you in the third paragraph on page five we pick it up with you on route to the incidence and you say i briefed my crew with the incident details from the information I had on the MDT terminal yes could you
01:27:08 had on the MDT terminal yes could you see any information on the MDT terminal about Grenfell tower other than the location well I looked at the map there's a map as well he was switched between views I looked at the map sure
01:27:20 between views I looked at the map sure did you see any other information apart from the location no right and was the information that you got about Grenfell tower from the mobile data terminal
01:27:31 tower from the mobile data terminal about as full as you would normally expect it was right did he give you any information about the height of the building they may have said high roads I can't recall did he
01:27:43 said high roads I can't recall did he give you information about the number of floors know anything about dry rising main locations no that would be on the operational risk database which you can
01:27:54 operational risk database which you can interrogate normally when you get there because it's it's quite on the way to an incident as a watch manager you're quite busy listening to the radio speaking to
01:28:08 busy listening to the radio speaking to the firefighters looking at directions and so on did he get did the MDT give you any information about fact that there was a single staircase know
01:28:21 there was a single staircase know anything about the fact that it was cladding on the exterior no what about the standing advice to residents was there anything in the enormity about that to me not that I was aware of what
01:28:33 that to me not that I was aware of what about the need for a drop key to be able to obtain access no pass to see no did you feel that the information that you had that you had on the mobile data
01:28:44 you had that you had on the mobile data terminal that you saw on the way to Grenville tower was enough to prepare you for the incident on roof it was sufficient for address an incident
01:28:56 sufficient for address an incident location right on arrival did you feel that that information was sufficient no because on the rival you will normally get the driver of the plans resources
01:29:11 get the driver of the plans resources permitting to interrogate the operational its database so I will ask my driver haven't the plan have looked for any plans I've literally already did you did you ask been broader a toe in
01:29:22 you did you ask been broader a toe in toe because I saw a building on fire and I contacted on roof as we were getting near boy I heard some radio traffic which indicated to me there was a fire
01:29:33 which indicated to me there was a fire but try and for my crew hose and I found the information I listened to the handheld radio I contacted the instant
01:29:44 handheld radio I contacted the instant monitor right in your briefing to the crew on routes do you remember what you told them yeah I was looking at the the
01:29:57 told them yeah I was looking at the the map which is a light map and the fire engines in London have a GPS and it's the call of signs come up on the screen
01:30:08 the call of signs come up on the screen as you're looking at the map and when people book in to an incidence it goes live on the map so I said to my crew
01:30:21 live on the map so I said to my crew there nor Kensington's payer had booked and I mean they were in attendance right
01:30:30 did he say anything else to your crew no nothing I can recall
01:30:38 [Music]
01:30:43 did you who didn't remind them of any particular high-rise procedures that they should be well now the bottom of page five of your statement after you
01:31:00 page five of your statement after you discuss in the paragraph before that the riser and the fact that you knew that this was a tri rising may you you say a rising main in a high-rise building as a
01:31:13 rising main in a high-rise building as a requirement if you build a building over a certain height or complexity you're required by law to put in a vertical pipe
01:31:19 pipe I think it's 18 meters for a dry riser and 50 meters for a wet rising may
01:31:29 having heard the earlier arriving crews from North Kensington setting into the dry rising main outlet did you have any thoughts or assumptions about how high the building was when he was a high-rise
01:31:40 the building was when he was a high-rise sort of I knew was a that was it would if there was they said into a riser as they say the movie dry riser and that it
01:31:53 they say the movie dry riser and that it was a high-rise building so I told my guys that they just said in they've got a job right exact the World Bank not exactly the words I use but similar to the words I used you heard that they'd set into a riser say you say because
01:32:04 set into a riser say you say because they were charging it with water it you knew is a dry riser yes and having heard that it was a dry riser do you have any thoughts about how high the building was not specifically Hawaii the building was
01:32:15 not specifically Hawaii the building was Bernini was a high-rise building right would the fact that you were being told we worked out that they were setting into a dry rising main have told you that it must be a high-rise but not less
01:32:26 that it must be a high-rise but not less not more than 50 meters in height again I wouldn't make that numerical decision on the height of the berlina
01:32:37 decision on the height of the berlina other than it's a high race right did you ever discover the Granville Tower in fact exceeds 67 meters and I did the scope of that Hearst when did you discover that after the fact it is
01:32:50 you discover that after the fact it is that information that you would expect to be contained in the operational risk database yes that the building all that 67 meters only has a dry rising main you
01:33:02 67 meters only has a dry rising main you would he wouldn't had that the way you put us you wouldn't have a like that you have us as it has a dry riser it has oklets it would tell you the
01:33:13 it has oklets it would tell you the location of the outlets and nearby hotels but it wouldn't tell you in the way you said it fast instead of that wouldn't say that I would just say has my razor right do you
01:33:30 would just say has my razor right do you know so we're gonna talk about the arrival that Grenfell did you know that the current response target time for a second appliance is eight minutes yes you did do you know that the average
01:33:44 you did do you know that the average response time in 2017 in lfb for a second appliance is six minutes and 48 seconds we have we have that information
01:33:56 seconds we have we have that information from the lfb okay now according to the short incident log let me just take you to it it's tab 23 of the documents bun
01:34:14 you could just turn to page
01:34:21 at page 8 we see a halfway down is a box which contains the appliances and then
01:34:33 which contains the appliances and then working across from the left-hand side cool science station status etc you see that yes gg3 3-1 which was your your pump ladder yes and you are mobile to
01:34:48 pump ladder yes and you are mobile to incident oh 56:46 and then on scene at a 108 33 see according to this document
01:35:00 108 33 see according to this document which is the short incident log created by the London Fire Brigade it took you some 13 minutes between being mobile and
01:35:11 some 13 minutes between being mobile and being on the scene is that is that about right
01:35:14 right if you I couldn't say that's about right for the recessive here and I don't know how the accuracy of this document but well it would say is that it's a good
01:35:27 well it would say is that it's a good distance away from our station right so here you are ski that your time to arrival at the incident seems on this document to be way outside the target time and more than double the 2017
01:35:38 time and more than double the 2017 average I can only guess our assume that the the but the booking Univ status 3 wasn't done immediately which is the
01:35:49 wasn't done immediately which is the when we attended incidents that the the computer onboard computers used to press
01:36:00 computer onboard computers used to press a note just touch screen and and book and a plane stays three in attendance right you know do you have any
01:36:12 right you know do you have any particular recollection about about whether the length of time it took you to get from Kensington fire station to the fire ground was particularly long no not once we have the station right
01:36:25 not once we have the station right and do you know when Ben Broderick press the button that meant that your pump lever which you know status 3 you know
01:36:36 lever which you know status 3 you know when you arrived did you have any thoughts about contacting the persons responsible for the building as you had done on previous visits no because it's an operational response so that was my
01:36:49 an operational response so that was my first point of contact is the incident command they're always always the first instinct managers watch my have done them that's my my responsibility is to contact him first right now on page 6 of
01:37:05 contact him first right now on page 6 of your statements in the third paragraph you say that when you arrived you saw significant flames coming from the building which is look at that
01:37:22 you say
01:37:26 as we approached I said I could see significant flames coming from the building with energy it was a well-developed fire in a flat now you say as we approached you just give me an idea of where you were
01:37:38 give me an idea of where you were sitting I'm assuming you were sitting in the near side front of the cab near so phones and cables will have driver on your right that's right and so as you approached your weather which road but I
01:37:50 approached your weather which road but I mean tight or northern in there all prepare it's the restless the one that arrives at the main entrance right side of Gravatar I don't work together so when you first call site of the fire got
01:38:04 when you first call site of the fire got the cab windows in front of you where was the fire which direction was the fire in to my right to your right as a case it was a my diagonally I would say okay so it's a but on the driver's side
01:38:17 okay so it's a but on the driver's side effectively well yeah in that direction in that direction okay and how far from the tower did you park
01:38:30 of three appliance lengths away our tool plants their legs away right and whereabouts in relation to the tower did you did you park you think the we parked
01:38:45 you did you park you think the we parked to the front and side of the fire site so looking at the front and to the side it's where we parks may that makes sense if I can see a map I could probably what
01:38:57 if I can see a map I could probably what I was going to show you exactly there isn't one exhibited to your statement but we might be able to do it on the basis of the exhibit of the last witness mr. secret right there just ask you to be shown any t triple zero one
01:39:09 you to be shown any t triple zero one three zero eight six and that's mr. secrets markings and he explained
01:39:20 secrets markings and he explained yesterday his evidence where two seven one and two seven two apart so two seven one was parked to the south of the tower by that you which is added new shape which he's added no no below that thank
01:39:32 which he's added no no below that thank you yet under the walkway about two seven one and then two seventy two he said he thought was parked by the X on the east side where do you think 331 was
01:39:43 the east side where do you think 331 was Park mr. O'Keeffe when you arrived
01:39:48 which was if you beat em you would see which is the front entrance of the building okay yeah absolutely the front entrance is to the south
01:39:59 entrance is to the south sort of sort of wonderful man we do have better mats but okay so we would have been parked where you could just hide your purse away so to the southeast to
01:40:11 your purse away so to the southeast to the southeast you see there's an M letter there wouldn't be that close right we're back further than that how far back further do you think not too far back
01:40:22 too far back so about where the little crosses yeah right that's very helpful and was that near a hydrant do you know I couldn't turn it right is there a particular
01:40:33 turn it right is there a particular reason why Bend Roderick parked into the appliance there because it was the only access road we knew we didn't know the area that well it's not in the foreground we had trouble finding the address on the map in the first place so
01:40:47 address on the map in the first place so one of the goings mentioned that wall wherever the road name was I don't the core was born though was that was the access will be used and okay we have
01:40:59 access will be used and okay we have your incident status it's very arrival time as I've shown you as a 108 33
01:41:12 can you just describe for us when you first arrived and you say you sought significant flames coming from the building were those flames still within the flats you use hair white you might
01:41:24 the flats you use hair white you might my recollection was that they were coming out the window but not enough to hole up and sufficiently they're coming out of the window yeah the winner was that he was either breached or open right and could you see smoke no see
01:41:36 right and could you see smoke no see flame plane and did you see anything falling from the window right
01:41:49 and what was the color of the flames orange orange did you think or see anything about it that was spreading did
01:42:03 anything about it that was spreading did you have any thoughts about whether the fire was still contained within its compartment or whether compartment was broke I thought it was still contained in the compartment right now you then
01:42:18 in the compartment right now you then say in your statement in the fourth paragraph down on page 6 I detailed my be a crew to report immediately to the entry control point of a bridgehead that's correct
01:42:29 that's correct and I approached watch manager Dowden and you say we were situated at the front right-hand side of the building and to be clear whereabouts was that in
01:42:43 and to be clear whereabouts was that in relation to the main entrance do you remember southeast southeast and you say
01:42:53 I asked him which floor the fire was on and he replied that was on the fourth floor and that a be a crew were about to be committed correct and then you say
01:43:06 be committed correct and then you say he's already sent a bridgehead and then you say this I asked watch manager doesn't if he had made up the incident meaning he had asked for additional resources to attend just pausing there
01:43:17 resources to attend just pausing there why did you ask that question it's normal question I was asked by someone quite a lot of questions when I turned up we're rapidly did you yeah could you tell us what questions you asked him asked him what are any persons involved
01:43:29 asked him what are any persons involved you said no what what what so he just pulls there why did you ask him that this is important to know if he went we need to do rescues is that a standard
01:43:41 need to do rescues is that a standard question you'd ask or is this something status the first thing I look at when I go to an innocent of any fire I see was it was there anything particular about what you could see about the fire that meant that you did so residential block
01:43:52 meant that you did so residential block right that's why say any persons reported but what other what other questions did you ask yeah have yourself a bridge ready said yes I some have you
01:44:03 a bridge ready said yes I some have you secured the forest he said no because I wasn't working right and I asked him if he had made it up or increased attendance and I recall he said to me
01:44:16 attendance and I recall he said to me know do you think I should and I said somewhat I think he shows and he said okay he left me so on and he said eyes no I say I think you should make it from 6:00
01:44:28 6:00 get six pump attendance and he said so yeah okay
01:44:32 yeah okay do you think I should I said so can you do that for me I said he said can you also get an early deployments so he added that to our discussion and I said
01:44:44 added that to our discussion and I said yeah I get that done for you which is an a very normal occurrence for another officer Tony up a scene in support of enough sir already they're just going
01:44:58 enough sir already they're just going back to this question of making it up to a six-month attendance you're aware I think that the normal predetermined attendance for a high-rise block fire is
01:45:10 attendance for a high-rise block fire is for appliances well I told me it was on that night you know I think it was just free on the highways a place right that's my recollection of us okay that's
01:45:23 that's my recollection of us okay that's your recollection there were three there is other material which I didn't will have shady you necessarily that it was originally three and then the control room realized that it was a high-rise and put it put another I know how much
01:45:35 and put it put another I know how much manure more grows on to God so to make it a flair for pump again the attendance that that's right but justice that in terms of standard policy were you aware as a June 2017 that the PDA the
01:45:46 as a June 2017 that the PDA the predetermined attendance floor yeah I was there for puppet Angeles yes it's so okay so at that stage you've seen three pumps in attendance did you
01:45:57 seen three pumps in attendance did you know that Hammersmith as the fourth pump was on route wasn't than on the car I don't recall if I know I had to have surroundings right said bits and then when you went to Mike doubt and and you advised him to make it up to six what
01:46:10 advised him to make it up to six what was it about the fire that prompted you to make it up to six it seemed to have a lot of energy it was IP refresh I was on
01:46:21 lot of energy it was IP refresh I was on the incident and I was my assessment that is that it needed more resources what did you think you needed those resources for that
01:46:32 resources for that breathing apparatus and for fire groans assistance but for additional PA right
01:46:42 now in time in terms of time to make to get a time stamp on it I wonder if you can help it we've got you arriving
01:46:54 can help it we've got you arriving status 3 at 108 which may be a little bit late in terms of the time of unknown arrive but how long after you arrived
01:47:05 arrive but how long after you arrived did you tell or advised Mike down to make pumps 8 slightly make pump 6 I had to tell him to make a noise and I have no I had he made had he made and he made
01:47:17 no I had he made had he made and he made it up
01:47:17 it up right so the words are used and he said no do you think I should yes so I just said I think I think he should and the time would be the time it took me to
01:47:29 time would be the time it took me to walk from the appliance to where he was standing so how long was that 70 seconds right
01:47:40 and it was you heard Vaught who advised him to make it six or six the number he came up with I suggested they make it six yes of course he didn't pop the number I said now you said I think you
01:47:52 number I said now you said I think you should make pom six he suggested to add an area to the makeup he's in your statement you say I said to him make pump six and he said okay I'll make pump six can you do it for me is that is that
01:48:03 six can you do it for me is that is that the way you remember it I remember exactly our sellers I said I have more or less exactly I said I think you should make any said pieces do you think I should say those please sorry just nibble yeah I'd start out of it I said
01:48:15 nibble yeah I'd start out of it I said to him I think you should make it to make it six and he said do you think so I said yes he said okay so can you do that for me and he said also can you
01:48:26 that for me and he said also can you please add an areal appliance right now I'm just going to ask you something by reference to a video to two things I think arise from that first of all are you alright to look at a video of the
01:48:40 you alright to look at a video of the building on fire on the night okay and secondly mr. chairman I need to give the trigger warning if my pan is and we do this so I'm going to show a very short clip of groennfell tower on fire
01:48:53 short clip of groennfell tower on fire on the night which also has some important audio attached to it and therefore if anybody is going to think that they find this distressing in any way then then they should either leave
01:49:04 way then then they should either leave this room now and we'll allow 30 seconds for that to happen or if they're watching by livestream and they should get themselves away from the livestream and this will take about five or five or
01:49:16 and this will take about five or five or so minutes so we'll allow 30 seconds to elapse while people do that if they want to and it meanwhile mr. documents
01:49:27 to and it meanwhile mr. documents director if you could just cue up the mic Bisby sorry the loop is be fast pret video at oh one twelve we'll start with a 112
01:49:40 but I love
01:49:44 mr. general star shui packing that's all right Brad you going yes right now what I need to do mr. O'Keefe is okay I got a plate this to you not more than twice
01:49:56 plate this to you not more than twice unless you want me to play it again but I want you to listen out very carefully so somebody's shouting something and at the same time just see what's happening in front of you okay
01:50:07 in front of you okay okay and if we can get the volume up as high as we can mr. documents director that would be great right so start
01:50:18 that would be great right so start [Music]
01:50:23 go
01:50:31 right
01:50:37 can we
01:50:47 you want the audio no audio for this and wonder what's happened [Music]
01:51:16 okay right well perhaps
01:51:23 I'd also take up twice I think the problem might give solves mr. moment
01:51:32 mr. Keefe would you just give us a minute or two we always thought this out
01:52:00 [Music]
01:52:17 [Music]
01:52:31 [Music]
01:52:36 I wonder whether I think perhaps rather than taking up time when this will sort this out overnight or come back to this particular piece of evidence tomorrow yes okay yes I can say we won't show
01:52:49 yes okay yes I can say we won't show that video otherwise it may take may taken longer than we need now at the point at which you advised Mike down to
01:53:00 point at which you advised Mike down to make pump six did you have any thoughts about how the fire was developing you say had a lot of energy did you have any thoughts about how it was developed for
01:53:11 thoughts about how it was developed for it was a developed fire you think about whether it might develop further there's always a potential for a fire to develop or did you have any thoughts about compartment ation holding or the risks
01:53:24 compartment ation holding or the risks of it being breached well I thought that it could it could grow in size as a fire which is what we were paid to stop so I
01:53:35 which is what we were paid to stop so I just don't think the resources were sufficient that if a big role we would have sufficient resources on the ground to deal with right now you said that you advised him to call for an area look
01:53:47 advised him to call for an area look like no he's just that himself sorry I misunderstood I suggested make it six pumps of machines and he said can you also get me an aerial but I see say he asked you to okay yes did you think
01:53:59 he asked you to okay yes did you think that it was the right thing to do yes right why is that because he gives you more options it's a high-rise building gives you more options should you mean this they used
01:54:11 options should you mean this they used to be on the PDA systematically determine attends to highways but it stopped which I thought was a bad idea when that was taken off the PDA for
01:54:23 when that was taken off the PDA for high-rise buildings offer a lot of fires actually just put suppose there were when was that I don't I can't recall the exact days do you know why that was I don't know I think probably no I do I
01:54:34 don't know I think probably no I do I couldn't have said you have for us to see you officer or some in higher grades of millions of our voice action in technology and and you
01:54:45 voice action in technology and and you say gives a high rise sorry an area would give you more options yes we would that be options to fight an exterior fire a burst and options from rescue
01:54:59 fire a burst and options from rescue right options for using it other as a doing tower to get a better overview of the incident very versatile piece of equipment right so what this was it
01:55:13 equipment right so what this was it already going through your mind that even at that stage you might need to be conducting rescues at height or fighting
01:55:24 conducting rescues at height or fighting exterior father no not in the way you've put us but it dissolves a potential okay and I think you then discussed the which aerial you would need with been
01:55:36 aerial you would need with been Broderick well I've been broadcast me whichever you want there are aerial other platforms which are more like a cherry picker type of arrangement with hydraulic hinged arms
01:55:49 arrangement with hydraulic hinged arms or a turntable ladder which is a quite a large louder extendable and my opinion it better well for longer than they've been a bit of kit because of the narrow
01:56:00 been a bit of kit because of the narrow streets it's easier to maneuver yes I get to walk at the top of page 7 you after the discussion about which one you say honestly I didn't care which type of
01:56:11 say honestly I didn't care which type of ladder so I said just the closest one well the closest one else which would have been Paddington men and they'd say Oh Paddington as well you so that's what happens you did so you knew already there was an aerial I know they're gonna
01:56:23 there was an aerial I know they're gonna thought they were the closest to us I walk apparently quite a lot yes
01:56:31 what does the fact that well does does the fact that you wanted the closest one available tell us anything about the urgency of the need for an aerial it's a
01:56:44 urgency of the need for an aerial it's a farm laughter it's an argent affair you know it only makes the road speeding yeah it makes sense to get their closest resource that's available and that's Paddington right okay so because it just
01:56:57 Paddington right okay so because it just struck me that if it was always the case that you would always go for the closest why would you have a debate about what kind of platform that you need it because that's the way he viewed us has been Rodriguez urn I suppose he wanted
01:57:09 been Rodriguez urn I suppose he wanted me to be more specific but he wasn't sure what that's just the way he is I guess which is good from a firefighter to do that because sometimes officers
01:57:22 to do that because sometimes officers don't I what aren't able to specify our dogs specified so he was just in the right thing I suppose now the original
01:57:33 right thing I suppose now the original request was
01:57:41 if we look at tab 23 of the documents bundle
01:57:51 at page 17 the original request at oh one 1339 was I UPG 331 make pumps six
01:58:03 one 1339 was I UPG 331 make pumps six and one HP HP is high platform I think isn't it
01:58:06 isn't it I didn't send a message no ok what's H ok what's HP I just hope you padding as well as a tear just said get the nearest
01:58:17 well as a tear just said get the nearest one right and say you see make on one HP and then a minute will say later 114 12 there's an amendment to one aerial did
01:58:28 there's an amendment to one aerial did you anything about that change well you have to ask mr. Broadrick both of us he may have amended as himself by by radio you didn't have anything to do
01:58:41 by radio you didn't have anything to do with that no exhaustion transmitted the message right no okay thank you say okay how quickly would you or did you expect
01:58:54 how quickly would you or did you expect the aerial that you had asked that been Broderick to get from Paddington to arrive well given that Paddington lose a
01:59:05 arrive well given that Paddington lose a neighboring station and on the availability the mere meaning that it wasn't already assigned to an incident I will expect the area to get there I
01:59:17 will expect the area to get there I can't give you the exact time but quickly enough right because in fact we have we do have an arrival time the state is three for the aerial at oh one thirty two and given that it was ordered
01:59:28 thirty two and given that it was ordered at a 130 1341 or 114 that's it's a period of about about 18 minutes it's quite long I was going to ask you yeah it's all right
01:59:40 it's all right again they're not on with their unwieldy appliances but it seems like a long time right were you aware of any particular problems in the area love rising at groennfell getting access to the tower or access yes
01:59:53 so when we went there previously the road going to grant for Torah for me look like a service road and we had to be cutting the appliances going down so
02:00:04 be cutting the appliances going down so when you had the convergence of more of several machines if they became an issue with it's very narrow winding space which seemed to be overcrowded with adjoining buildings I would say with
02:00:18 adjoining buildings I would say with poor access yeah and what particular access difficulties did the aerial appliance have do you remember I don't I was I was I don't know because I was inside the tower I played a stage
02:00:29 inside the tower I played a stage whatever there right right
02:00:33 [Music]
02:00:36 is it normal to use an aerial appliance for external firefighting and a high-rise residential building before the time that it has been confirmed that
02:00:48 the time that it has been confirmed that there's no longer any rescue able life in the building if it's as far as purchase right or depending on what the incident commander where once an area
02:01:01 incident commander where once an area for as I mentioned previously and that can be used from different purposes okay now at this point a 130 no 114 you
02:01:12 now at this point a 130 no 114 you called for an aerial originally an HP for for that extra optionality fighting a fire of height rescue did you have any thoughts about whether the stay-put
02:01:23 thoughts about whether the stay-put policy standing statehood policy in place of grenfell tower remained appropriate no did you have any discussion with Mike down in the Bowery
02:01:34 discussion with Mike down in the Bowery did he say anything to you about it no at that stage again 113 114 could you see anybody self evacuating out of the
02:01:45 see anybody self evacuating out of the tower no and can I turn that to the next question which is the covering jet and page 7 of your statement there you say
02:02:00 page 7 of your statement there you say in the second paragraph 5 lines down from the top at this point firefighters Murphy and Cornelius set up a covering jet and put water on the outside of the building immediately did you tell them
02:02:14 building immediately did you tell them to do that so did you know you did and so my recollection is that while they was talking to what's measured Odin he may have given the instruction before I
02:02:25 may have given the instruction before I read but while I was speaking to him one of the shot is the firefighter she'll get a copy and Jenna I hear I don't know who it was and then there was a lot of firefighters showing to each other and
02:02:36 firefighters showing to each other and they very quickly deployed the cover and Jess I know my two guys Dez and Charlie well
02:02:45 well sorry firefighter Murphy at fire father Cornelius went onto the covering Jeff what I was so I was looking over watch Manitobans shoulder at the fire and at
02:02:57 Manitobans shoulder at the fire and at the activity of the jet going on and he said be being set up and applied to the two flare to the e building that was
02:03:09 two flare to the e building that was before Evans into the bridge okay okay but where exactly were they applying the covering jet do you remember I do they were applying it to the side and above
02:03:20 were applying it to the side and above the left-hand side and the windows you're facing us I think it went in through the window at one stage but the information was no information that was any far as though there were any
02:03:32 any far as though there were any firefighters in the apartment at the time and it went briefly above their compartments right where was anything in the main where was the jet being aimed
02:03:43 the main where was the jet being aimed above the bullet in the main to the side and then to the top and and when it was on for a very brief a very brief moment actually right how long would you say the jet was on floorcovering jet that's
02:03:57 the jet was on floorcovering jet that's a hard one to recall between 30 seconds and minutes and at the time the covering jet was being deployed did you did you have a good look at the well first of all where were you standing
02:04:08 all where were you standing I was standing facing watch manager told him yes and I was looking at the building front and side on front and side on it looking down slightly from a
02:04:20 side on it looking down slightly from a slight elevation at the firefighters below of the warping I think basically then could you see the fire flat clears good and and at the stage when the covering jet went on at the start what
02:04:36 covering jet went on at the start what was the fire doing then was venting out of the window and could you see any flaming debris or no that's falling from the window space at that stage no I don't know I don't think there was at
02:04:47 don't know I don't think there was at this stage it just no did you see the covering jet being applied more than on more than once no because when the information came to
02:05:04 no because when the information came to us actually to the for a girl in fact that the crews had entered the apartment I recalled hearing someone show me not the jet off there in there in doctor jet
02:05:15 the jet off there in there in doctor jet off mean the jet over water and the guys knocked it off immediately right when you say they're in they're in did was in
02:05:26 you say they're in they're in did was in the compartment the firefighting crews they were gone from the bridgehead yes we're in the were in the compartment I saw I think was possibly a being and slight movement in the in the
02:05:37 slight movement in the in the compartment right when he saved the compartment do you mean the flat or do you mean the room room within the flat the room in the room within the flat in this case a kitchen well that's all I could see at that time okay so room
02:05:50 could see at that time okay so room within the flat and then you say so I ask you you say for four lines down from the top of that paragraph on page seven just at that point a radio message was
02:06:02 just at that point a radio message was transmitted but the VA crews were entering the flat so watch manager davon gave the order for the ground crew and knock off the covering jet but first of all the radio message was transmitted did you hear the
02:06:13 message was transmitted did you hear the message yourself no I had the guys I know Mike Tom had his radio I didn't hear what was said I heard guys simultaneously to say show
02:06:28 I heard guys simultaneously to say show not the general did you have your own fire ground radio on yes was it tuned to channel one yes because they could you not here on channel one I was busy speaking to my daughter and
02:06:39 was busy speaking to my daughter and watching
02:06:39 watching okay but you heard it you heard the radio message come on to his radio I heard a radio transmission is the best the best like a relative a correct I don't remember the words at all by work
02:06:51 don't remember the words at all by work what I was listening to is focused on was the fire and the firefighters show the instructions to each other and when you say in your state with the PA crews were entering the flat what a flat thing
02:07:04 were entering the flat what a flat thing I think you mentioned in the kitchen on English all the flat you know I yeah it
02:07:11 it well you say flat no let's just try and be accurate because there's a distinction in timing between going into the flat and going into the kitchen okay which is important so can you try and remember whether the message was that
02:07:22 remember whether the message was that they were going into the flat or the message was that they were going into no I can only say that they said they're inside okay all right okay and and the
02:07:34 inside okay all right okay and and the crew there knocked off the no it's a graphic of injure they knocked off the covering jet now mister Dowden in his
02:07:47 covering jet now mister Dowden in his statement says that he realized the jet was having no effect so he instructed the crew to turn it off is that what happened to your best of
02:07:58 is that what happened to your best of your recollection my recollection is that the chrome show that the Attorney General he may well have done I didn't hear right and we also had mr. secret
02:08:09 hear right and we also had mr. secret say that he gave a message by radio to mr. Darden not to apply the covering jet because the initial da quite possibly his radio may have after having activated by didn't heard actual words in his light
02:08:25 and if you had known at the time that the building had a cladding on it which was as we've seen liable to catch
02:08:38 was as we've seen liable to catch impossible you use the word now that's a fire into fire yes if you'd know that at the time would you have allowed the covering jet
02:08:49 would you have allowed the covering jet to be knocked off no what would you have done instead the hindsight is a fine thing if I if I toss something was combustible I would have applied more
02:09:01 combustible I would have applied more than one covering Jeff okay that was a hindsight question as you rightly say that's I can only answer the reason I asked it is because at the top that does that tell us about what was in your mind
02:09:12 that tell us about what was in your mind at the time about what the exterior building comprised to me it didn't look combustible I didn't know it was mr. chairman it's just the four 415 I would like you going for I know that topic I
02:09:25 like you going for I know that topic I am but I also would like before moving on to it to show this the video spread but I do it in two parts actually but I I think in fairness to other people we
02:09:36 I think in fairness to other people we need to make sure that it can it runs and I want to spend time now it's late in the day so we could put this off - first thing tomorrow morning it would be sensible to make sure it will run you try to get exactly otherwise exactly
02:09:49 try to get exactly otherwise exactly so I'm going to ask for a break now if that's something convenient to resume again tomorrow morning that now mr. O'Keeffe is that is that inconvenient to you very beautiful thank you very much I
02:10:03 you very beautiful thank you very much I don't know further questions for the CV before you before we break no you've got to make another application not knowingly what time Wiggins so I say yes
02:10:16 well I did this with some trepidation mr. chairman but can I ask for it to be 9:30 tomorrow morning again just to make sure we get her we get a good day at it there are a number of reasons for that
02:10:27 there are a number of reasons for that first of all it's Friday and the sooner we finish the better from we'd all agree with that yes and secondly I think there are people who want to arrange to go up
02:10:38 are people who want to arrange to go up to the tower tomorrow afternoon now I can't guarantee to finish before that happens but I budget have done my best well I think the sensible sitting is disagreeable there may be some to start
02:10:51 disagreeable there may be some to start early yes if people have be sensible for them to tell you and through you tell me
02:11:02 them to tell you and through you tell me and then we'll ensure that we don't interfere with those things okay um I have mr. Chen before this witness case I've sent an urgent statement made to me
02:11:13 I've sent an urgent statement made to me by by somebody like something I need to clarify with the witness tonight now I don't know whether that's necessary but I think I just should do it so it's done
02:11:25 I think I just should do it so it's done I put to you I think a point I did put to your point about the length of time it took it took you to arrive and it's
02:11:38 it took it took you to arrive and it's been suggested to me that I did so on the basis of the what you were the second responder and I didn't mean to do that which responder were you the first attendants well we were force responders
02:11:49 attendants well we were force responders you own a second more than an additional we were wrong here on the original call right and in terms of certainly required the initial attendants and in terms of
02:12:03 the initial attendants and in terms of how many appliances were there before you when you arrived how many was that you do too so you were the third to arrive correct out of out of out of four correct right thank you I hope that
02:12:16 correct right thank you I hope that clarifies the maxim for whoever will be clarified all right yeah uhm yes I thank you very much mr. Yuki okay let's go give we're gonna break now for the day okay so I'm sorry I've got asked you to
02:12:27 okay so I'm sorry I've got asked you to come back again tomorrow that's and I hip-hop's night into early Oh
02:12:31 Oh I got three young kids so late okay well the thing is please don't talk too many but I won't survive your evidence overnight and we'll look forward to
02:12:43 overnight and we'll look forward to seeing you tomorrow morning okay thank you sir thank you very much he's give the ocean
02:12:58 thank you very much for Fox 9's Laura please
02:13:09 you