Outbreak of fire (2 July 2018 Pt 2 of 2)

Full transcript

00:00:13 yes mr. chairman I'm told that it may be necessary or is necessary to rise up for today because some core participants have got a complete pre-planned trip up

00:00:24 have got a complete pre-planned trip up the tower

00:00:25 the tower yeah is that convenient to to you mr. chairman

00:00:28 chairman no we'll do that well you thought when you found a convenient point I've talked around about four o'clock yes thank you in which case I'm going to call our next witness

00:00:37 witness firefighter Justin Oh burn thank you

00:01:09 that's closely mr. Bern we're going to take this I think yes

00:01:16 I swear by Almighty God I swear by Monty good the evidence Iceland give the evidence I shall give shall be the truth there's simply the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the

00:01:28 the whole truth and nothing but the truth

00:01:30 truth thank you very much and you'll have your comfortable spending I'll let you know if I'm not well please do that's what I was going to say to you okay we can easily remove that if you'd rather sit down and if we get to a point

00:01:43 rather sit down and if we get to a point when you feel you need a break just indicate Thank You doctoring after me mr. Beverley first of all can I just say how grateful we are to you for coming

00:01:55 how grateful we are to you for coming here to the inquiry to give your evidence today that is very much appreciated very welcome if there are any questions which I ask you which you don't understand I will happily ask them again or ask them in a

00:02:07 happily ask them again or ask them in a different way just just say and if you need a break at any point just signal and you can have you can have a break yes okay just to say they say you know we're aiming to finish this afternoon at

00:02:19 we're aiming to finish this afternoon at about four o'clock but I may not have finished your evidence by then but doesn't matter just say you have that in your mind okay thank you can I ask you to look at your statement first of all please which you'll find it tab 6a in a

00:02:33 please which you'll find it tab 6a in a little bundle in front of you it's a blue bonnet yes and it should be on the screen there we're not going to see it explained yet yes but I'll sit on the screen or in the hard copy in that you

00:02:47 screen or in the hard copy in that you use whichever you find okay and just and this isn't for you but for the system we operate here mr. it burns at its reference is M eet quadruple 0 8 3 3 2 1

00:03:01 reference is M eet quadruple 0 8 3 3 2 1 and there are attached to that statement some contemporaneous notes as Jo B 3 and they are M et quadruple 0 5 3 37 and a

00:03:14 they are M et quadruple 0 5 3 37 and a handwritten statement M et quadruple 0 5 3 3 8 you should have those in front of you in the in the little bundle as well at tab B could you just confirm that they're yours

00:03:27 that's your hand reinstated up jz3 and when a second handwritten statement

00:03:47 okay right okay yeah yes here is nice this is your uh yeah I lost pages ripped by somebody else is it so we can look at

00:03:58 by somebody else is it so we can look at that in due course and then yeah we have exhibits one two four five six seven eight nine ten and eleven and I'll perhaps mr. chairman will read the met

00:04:09 perhaps mr. chairman will read the met references into the record later yes but in your bundle at tab see you should have those exhibits this mr. Wrayburn if you could just confirm that that's chair be one two four five six seven eight

00:04:21 be one two four five six seven eight nine ten and eleven

00:04:33 I'm just showing you that a safari of statement is concerned it's dated the 29th of December 2017 have you read it recently yes can you confirm for us that

00:04:45 recently yes can you confirm for us that its contents are true yes have you discussed your statement or the evidence that you are going to give today with anybody before you came here not now you

00:04:58 anybody before you came here not now you joined the London Fire Brigade in April I think 1988 1998 that's correct yes can you just give us a brief summary of your career in the London Fire Brigade since April 1998 I was training school

00:05:12 since April 1998 I was training school maker in September of that year I went to Park Royal fire station with one truck and moved onto after about a year and a half of being there and moved to

00:05:23 and a half of being there and moved to North Kensington

00:05:32 North Korean fire station I've been on a red watch since my I started my career and I've been on the red set North Kent for about 17 years now yes okay I wonder

00:05:46 for about 17 years now yes okay I wonder whether when you speak you might just understand the little closer to the microphone perhaps or or speak up to the table in a way you know that I know I know there is well perhaps you could just speak up a little bit of you right okay good yes right thanks

00:05:59 okay good yes right thanks now you describe in your statement in the bottom of page one on the top of page two you say that North Kensington

00:06:11 page two you say that North Kensington is quite a busy fire station and we get a fair amount of fires can I just give an impression of what you mean by that

00:06:23 an impression of what you mean by that how many call-outs do you get in an average ship I couldn't tell you sometimes you might not turn the wheel all night and sometimes can be very busy

00:06:34 all night and sometimes can be very busy I wouldn't like to speculate now right believe it it's one of the busier fire stations and I believe it's also one of the busier fire stations for fires okay for fires for fires as well as the

00:06:45 for fires for fires as well as the actual bars yeah not just alarms and stuff like that for actual fires yes okay you've set out quite a bit in your statement about training that I'd like to ask you about your training for

00:06:56 to ask you about your training for high-rise firefighting in particular in your in your statement in these third

00:07:07 your in your statement in these third paragraph on page 2 if you just look at that you say within the LF B we also complete regular training in high-rise firefighting and within the last year we

00:07:19 firefighting and within the last year we did a simulation of a high-rise fire at Hammersmith fire station just just pausing there when you say regular high-rise firefighting training how often is regular I'd say we regularly

00:07:36 often is regular I'd say we regularly discuss at a station about firefighter drills and stuff like that I'd say at least once a year but it's obviously very hard to put into practice at their

00:07:49 very hard to put into practice at their station with a just a drill towel right okay and we'll look at that you say there that you did within the last year you did a simulation of a high-rise fire at Hammersmith fire station can you just

00:08:02 at Hammersmith fire station can you just tell us what that involved he it was mostly based for officers if I remember rightly that we're going through the procedures that they'll adapt or adopt

00:08:15 procedures that they'll adapt or adopt and I after that we went outside and done a simulation of a fire and a tower

00:08:27 done a simulation of a fire and a tower block who says simulation what what the procedures that we put into place as in five floor

00:08:37 area and the lobby area okay and did any part of that simulation involve a fire which had broken out of the compartment of origin tomorrow knowledge

00:08:49 compartment of origin tomorrow knowledge no what about breaking out of smoke from the compartment of origin did any part of that training involve the spread of fire on the exterior of a high-rise

00:09:01 fire on the exterior of a high-rise building no did any part of that training involves how the exterior of a building might behave in the case of the fire what I understand from the question

00:09:17 fire what I understand from the question is are you asking whether it would would the fire jump from one window to another is that we were asking or are you asking it the actual material on the outside of a building well let's let's just the

00:09:28 a building well let's let's just the answer to your question to me is both but let's take it in stages so if it's a first of all did any part of that training involve what happens if a fire jumps through a window an upper floor I

00:09:41 jumps through a window an upper floor I don't remember any specific training about that I would decide that you'd get cruising to put it out okay and did any part of that trade did any part of that

00:09:52 part of that trade did any part of that training exercise involve cladding or how cladding no would behave what about any other kind of surface or structure on the exterior of the building in the event of a bar no no okay now you go on

00:10:07 event of a bar no no okay now you go on in the nape in the same paragraph to say in this training we talked about policy and the procedures that we gave through at an incident and where to put a bridgehead what policy or policies were

00:10:18 bridgehead what policy or policies were you trained in during that training program do you remember I know I could save high-rise policy obviously that's

00:10:30 save high-rise policy obviously that's like I've done November it was fine survival guidance but I wouldn't like to smoke you know kay so you do remember high-rise the high-rise policy policy

00:10:41 high-rise the high-rise policy policy six three three

00:10:43 I'm surprised you know that I as I say if we're doing higher ice drills then we would be working from that policy you just say okay

00:11:01 and beyond the simulation course he did a Hammersmith fire station have you ever had training in what happens if the exterior of a table catches fire no okay

00:11:14 exterior of a table catches fire no okay and have you ever had training as to what happens if a fire in the tower block spreads beyond the compartment of origin I believe not okay did that

00:11:29 origin I believe not okay did that training program at Hammersmith involve any training about the stay-put policy I wouldn't I'd say no okay do you have

00:11:44 I wouldn't I'd say no okay do you have in your experience of firefighting in North Kensington over the years you are a tread wash they're an understanding your own understanding of what a stay

00:11:55 your own understanding of what a stay put policy is yes what they have an understanding of it and what is that understanding that if your compartment or property your dwelling is involved in

00:12:06 or property your dwelling is involved in a fire that you stay in your property and wait for the Fire Rescue Service to attend and advise otherwise it could hamper the efforts of firefighters why

00:12:18 hamper the efforts of firefighters why she all that leave the building and in your time in North Kensington have you any deed anywhere else in London did you ever get any training on when it might be appropriate for those on the incident

00:12:31 be appropriate for those on the incident ground to abandon the stay-put policy in favour of an alternative I'd say no did you attend a course or receive any

00:12:44 you attend a course or receive any training in a course called back-to-basics Hammersmith that's the same courses it yes I see thank you

00:12:54 thank you [Music]

00:12:55 [Music] do you remember whether in that course there were any lessons taught to you about what was learnt at a fire at Lac and

00:13:03 and in south london in 2009 i didn't receive that training i believe you you didn't I believe I wasn't I wasn't at work that day have you heard of or had you heard

00:13:16 day have you heard of or had you heard as at June 2017 of the fire at lacrimal house yes I've heard of it yes in what context I heard that some people have obviously tragically died and they were

00:13:28 obviously tragically died and they were told stare and if flex or someone I know other than that okay just just pursuing that a little bit as a as a firefighter

00:13:39 that a little bit as a as a firefighter experienced firefighter in North Kensington if I'd said to you before June 2017 the words lakal house what would that have meant to you

00:13:52 sorry yeah he left yeah if I'd come up to you

00:13:56 to you in May 2017 and said you said to you Justin what does lack '''l house mean to you what would you have told me I would say that people were told to stay in

00:14:09 say that people were told to stay in their properties by the fire brigade I believe this as I say this might just be speculation and then the fire obviously

00:14:21 speculation and then the fire obviously took hold in their dwellings and they don't that's pretty much want to know about it prior to June 2017 okay um as

00:14:34 about it prior to June 2017 okay um as at June 2017 were you aware that there had been a fire at shepherds Court in August of 2016 yes I was aware yes did you attend that

00:14:46 yes I was aware yes did you attend that fire I did yes right on which pumper do you remember I drove the our pump which is gone 50 70 from Soho fire station to

00:14:58 is gone 50 70 from Soho fire station to Shepherds Bush okay and at what stage in the fire did you arrive remember I mean we turned up obviously quite late on to the incident

00:15:10 obviously quite late on to the incident I can't remember exactly why so I remember rightly maybe there'd been fire involving three different dwellings if I

00:15:22 involving three different dwellings if I remember rightly and I can't remember it was at the tail end of the incident sorry I didn't we didn't really do a great deal did you get any training after the Shepherd shepherd how Shepherd

00:15:34 after the Shepherd shepherd how Shepherd Shepherds caught fire as to the lessons learned from Shepherd's court mm-hmm I don't believe so none and did you learn any particular lessons as a firefighter

00:15:46 any particular lessons as a firefighter from your attendance of shepherds called no

00:15:59 is it is it correct to say that you were familiar with Grenfell tower as a building because it was on north Kensington's patch yes as at June 2017

00:16:13 Kensington's patch yes as at June 2017 how familiar were you with Granville tower I've been there on quite a few occasions and I think too recent to before 2017 yeah if you look at page

00:16:26 before 2017 yeah if you look at page three of your statement please you say at the bottom there in the first line I've been to Grenfell tower many times on a regular basis within the last 17

00:16:38 on a regular basis within the last 17 years as it is one of the tower blocks in the area covered by the North Kensington fire station then you say we go to high-rise buildings such as grenfell Tower to do home fire safety

00:16:49 grenfell Tower to do home fire safety visits where we check all fit smoke alarms and give fire safety advice do you remember ever going to Granville tower itself to do home fire safety visits I don't remember going to that

00:17:01 visits I don't remember going to that particular building to do it no and then you say two lines on there for i-beam two Grenville to do smoke alarms and I've also been there quite a few times

00:17:14 I've also been there quite a few times due to the automatic fire alarm going off in the communal areas first of all can I just focus with you on doing smoke alarms when you say I've been to grand fail to do smoke alarms do you what what

00:17:25 fail to do smoke alarms do you what what do you mean it would be the thing I just said I don't remember doing so for fire safety visits that would be the smoke alarms right do you have any particular recollection of at a time right in a

00:17:38 recollection of at a time right in a state with the police statement I don't I don't have any recollection of it now no okay

00:17:48 with when you say do smoke alarms do you mean you mean advising residents almost make alarms to fit your asking of a fire safety question I guess yes it's a yeah so I just saw Tom explain most of its

00:18:02 so I just saw Tom explain most of its here which it done articulate it very well but yeah we check and fit our smoke alarms or maybe wall check smoke alarms that are pre fitted and give them a advise on fire safety do you know from

00:18:17 advise on fire safety do you know from your own knowledge whether as at June 2017 there were standard smoke alarms fitted within the flats at Granville Tower they were all the same or whether people had different different ones I I

00:18:31 people had different different ones I I don't know I can't answer that when you were talking to residents that Grenfell about fire safety did you do you remember whether you ever had occasion

00:18:44 remember whether you ever had occasion to discuss what happened if stay-put failed or evacuation or escape routes or anything like that as I say I'm not on percent sure that I have actually been to a home fire safety visit they okay I don't know

00:18:59 visit they okay I don't know fine so looking at the next sentence in the one we were looking at which was where you say I've also been there quite a few times due to the automatic fire alarm going off in the communal areas

00:19:11 alarm going off in the communal areas and then you get want to say however we haven't been called there for a while regarding regarding the alarm going off therefore I presume there isn't an AFA there in the communal areas there now

00:19:22 there in the communal areas there now this may explain why on the night of the fire a gram filter I didn't hear this or any alarms going off

00:19:34 can I just understand this is it your recollection that that one stage there had been a communal far alarm in

00:19:45 had been a communal far alarm in Grantville tower yes when was that I I wouldn't like to guess I would well

00:19:57 I I wouldn't like to guess I would well I would like to guess actually yeah it's probably before the reefer okay when you say you would like to guess I mean it is that that's that's doing the best with your recollection is it yes and when you

00:20:11 your recollection is it yes and when you think in the communal areas can you just describe what you mean if I remember rightly there be smoke detectors and Sounders in the communal areas and at

00:20:22 Sounders in the communal areas and at the panel and the concierge office used to go around all right communal areas would those include the lobby is outside the lifts on each floor yes

00:20:32 yes and with that will be connected up to a single panel in the main lobby that that was connected up into the concierge office behind a door glass screen and

00:20:44 office behind a door glass screen and stuff yes just tell me where was this concierge office for most of your memory you know I believe when you walked through I can't remember too much about

00:20:55 through I can't remember too much about the layout how it's changed but when you walk through the main entrance and the door that used to go or does now go into the lift lobby I remember rightly you'd walk through that they door dare turn

00:21:07 walk through that they door dare turn left and maybe a meter or two another left than you were getting into the concierge office at a back part of the idears office do you remember whether the concierge his office was manned do it was there

00:21:20 his office was manned do it was there was a person there I don't remember being a

00:21:25 being a an alarm when it wasn't when there wasn't anyone there that make sense yes he doesn't and was it this way was the concierge his office operated to the

00:21:36 concierge his office operated to the best of your knowledge 24 hours per day I presume it was that you haven't heard the alarm I would say it was yes right and the communal alarm that did let me

00:21:51 and the communal alarm that did let me ask you this under the system as you remember it if there was smoke or fire in a lobby on a lift you know on on a floor outside the lifts yes what would

00:22:04 floor outside the lifts yes what would happen in the concierges office the alarm would sound and it will show in the conjugation of this what floor the

00:22:17 the conjugation of this what floor the smoke detector headers or has been activated right and what would the concierge do do you remember i why wasn't there when a concierge would get me along right okay do you remember

00:22:29 me along right okay do you remember whether that fire alarm system was connected to North Kensington Fire Station sorry was that alarm system connected up in any way to North Kensington faster I believe it was an

00:22:40 Kensington faster I believe it was an automated system that obviously goes to a I guess a private company and then they don't go stick control then obviously back to us okay how much of

00:22:51 obviously back to us okay how much of this do you actually know from your own knowledge as opposed to thinking you know you're asking how much is this is fact or yes that's what I believe it is

00:23:08 fact or yes that's what I believe it is I know is it what you want a percentage or it's the best of your recollection yeah you correctly I mean can you actually remember a time when there was an automatic fire alarm

00:23:20 an automatic fire alarm yes there was definitely an automatic fire alarm in Grenfell tower

00:23:26 did you visit Grenville town after the refurbished works were complete I couldn't I don't know where they don't okay

00:23:37 okay I'm going to turn to some questions now about the night of the fire on the 14th of June yes 2017 and you cover this in your

00:23:49 2017 and you cover this in your statement from page 5 onwards and I want to pick it up if I can on page 6

00:24:07 you say at the bottom of page six and just to set the context I think you are you're talking about what's oh don't you

00:24:19 you're talking about what's oh don't you about your kids your breathing apparatus and you say halfway down that paragraph however because we extra firefighters and we're able to get more equipment off

00:24:32 and we're able to get more equipment off the pumps I thought I would take the IEC kit in as I didn't want to go empty-handed I might have also taken a couple of branches in I didn't put my be a set on

00:24:43 branches in I didn't put my be a set on as this is always the role the pump ladder crew it is therefore normal at an incident for some of us to enter the location initially without RBA sets on first of all could you just tell us what is the IEC kit its emergency it's a

00:25:03 is the IEC kit its emergency it's a first aid kit right internet motor CK I can't even think at a moment I thought you know

00:25:19 and you then say it's normal for some of us to enter the location initially without our PA sets on say is that what happened to you you went in without your PA sorta set on in the first yes yes and

00:25:35 PA sorta set on in the first yes yes and then if you look at page seven you you say halfway down that page I then made my way from the pump into Granville tower through the main entrance where

00:25:46 tower through the main entrance where there is a concrete roof above the doors I had the IEC kit over my shoulder and you then say once you're inside the

00:25:58 you then say once you're inside the foyer there's a big open space and you describe it and then you say the stairs are within an open the open space at the foyer which is separate from the main course staircase of the building leading

00:26:09 course staircase of the building leading to the first two floors at the top of the stairs on the second floor there's a walkway overlooking the foyer with the door at the end which you open with a key fob this leads to the main staircase which is immediately to your right then

00:26:20 which is immediately to your right then you say I think there's another door on the left that does go there should be through to the second floor niche lobby which is directly above the ground floor lift lobby do you remember first of all on arrival

00:26:34 do you remember first of all on arrival there being a need to find a key fob no no no do you remember any discussion between North Kensington Cruise and an

00:26:47 between North Kensington Cruise and an individual resident about accessing the lobby behind the main entrance he left I said it again so yeah do you remember any discussion taking place between the

00:27:00 any discussion taking place between the North Cain crews who were attending and an individual yes about how to get from the main entrance into the lift lobby oh no I I think I was a little bit

00:27:13 oh no I I think I was a little bit behind him right do you remember how you gained entrance into the ground floor lift lobby I i from us in to lift lobby I did with the

00:27:24 from us in to lift lobby I did with the door was open when I arrived with the I see pack okay and then at the top of page eight just following that a little bit further forward yeah you say when I

00:27:35 bit further forward yeah you say when I entered the foyer I went straight to the ground floor lift lobby I'm not sure if I was the last one going in but as I got into the lift which was quite small it seemed to be full of equipment I

00:27:46 seemed to be full of equipment I remember seeing branches about four lengths of hose and breaking in gear I can't remember who was in the lift or there but the be a crew would have waited there for the lift and a crew manager but also had been there and then

00:27:58 manager but also had been there and then you say this I think they were having problems trying to activate the fire lift just focusing on that do you how do you what do you remember about problems

00:28:11 you what do you remember about problems trying to activate the fire lift the reason why I said that I didn't I don't think that they actually mentioned anything about problems but as I got to the door and looked in the door it was

00:28:22 the door and looked in the door it was full of hose and obviously the firefighters weren't in there right therefore I presume don't having a problem with the lift at the time okay so did anybody just anybody tell you at

00:28:35 so did anybody just anybody tell you at the time that there was a problem with the fire

00:28:37 the fire from my knowledge no but unfortunately out you know that that make me wrong okay and you use then say due to the

00:28:49 okay and you use then say due to the problems with the lift there being so much kit in there and the IEC kit being quite big I thought I would walk up the stairs as the fire was only on the fourth floor and then you describe in the next paragraph that process you say

00:29:03 the next paragraph that process you say I went back into the foyer and I managed to get through the door in the glass wall to the foyer stairs I vaguely remember trying to open this glass and someone who was coming out let me in as I think you also need a magnetic fob

00:29:14 as I think you also need a magnetic fob to open this door so just looking at that what do you remember about the ease of access which you as a firefighter had into into and out of the building was

00:29:26 into into and out of the building was just fortunate there was someone a resident there to let the senior what would have happened had there not been a resident there to let you in I presume that had a panel for an express key to

00:29:38 that had a panel for an express key to open like an emergency open you then describe your you going up to the fourth floor you went up the stairs did you go

00:29:50 floor you went up the stairs did you go straight to the fourth floor I think I can't remember what I've done okay do you remember whether anybody instructed you to go to the fourth floor I don't think so I don't know what were

00:30:01 I don't think so I don't know what were you going to the fourth floor to do I believe well their fire was on the fourth floor so between sort of lift I've really

00:30:13 so between sort of lift I've really vague memories of it from leaving the lift maybe going for the door down up to the second floor I remember vaguely about the second floor and I don't even

00:30:24 about the second floor and I don't even remember where I carried any equipment up to the fourth floor right and you say in the third paragraph on page eight I then went into the fourth floor lobby

00:30:35 then went into the fourth floor lobby and that's from the stay the stairwell is it yes before you pushed open the door did you have any idea of what the conditions were going to be like in the fourth floor lobby no I I don't know

00:30:48 fourth floor lobby no I I don't know ever I was the first in there into the fourth floor lift lobby and I didn't know what the conditions were gonna be like before I went up there no but you did you you didn't have a hose

00:30:59 but you did you you didn't have a hose with you did you sorry did you have a hose with you no you didn't have any BA I didn't know was it going to be normal to enter into a lobby outside of fire flat in a high-rise block without water

00:31:11 flat in a high-rise block without water and without BA

00:31:16 do you mean like by the policy the policy would state that you charge a house and the floor below bring it up with you yes it but have that happened

00:31:28 with you yes it but have that happened but when you entered the fourth floor lobby that hadn't happened no so right so to repeat my question what were you when entering into the

00:31:39 what were you when entering into the fourth floor lobby without the a.m. without water doing so in accordance with policy no it wasn't the cording to the policy no right had anybody asked you to depart from policy no can you

00:31:50 you to depart from policy no can you tell us why you did say I didn't have a car I don't know if someone had said even if the crew manager said we'll go against policy as I say I don't remember

00:32:02 against policy as I say I don't remember okay would it be rare for you personally to not to comply with the policy on

00:32:13 to not to comply with the policy on high-rise fire fighting in the way you've just described

00:32:21 what's rare not often percent pieces you want know just as a feeling I mean is it something you do more often Malaya you mean like yeah I may push the

00:32:32 you mean like yeah I may push the boundaries of it yes okay and is that something you and your colleagues you would say do yeah we try to maybe to use

00:32:43 would say do yeah we try to maybe to use our initiative yeah okay right now what was it about using your initiative that thought that persuaded you that it was alright to go into the fourth floor lobby where you didn't get the

00:32:54 lobby where you didn't get the conditions without water number that VA I just say I'm pretty sure I wasn't the first one up there but whoever was they wouldn't have just opened the door and start we're heading there was a bit of

00:33:05 start we're heading there was a bit of common sense involved I'll crack the door open and if it's clear they'll probably set in to that part of riser okay now the second floor or you don't I

00:33:22 okay now the second floor or you don't I think say this in terms in your statement put it this way did you know at the time you ascended up to the fourth floor that the second floor was going to be used as the bridgehead yes

00:33:33 going to be used as the bridgehead yes yeah yeah I did you and I know that just cuz is always the case Paddy's policy yes but did anybody say to you

00:33:44 yes but did anybody say to you bridgeheads on the second floor far flats on the fourth floor I don't think so okay did you proceed to the bridgehead first before going up to the

00:33:58 bridgehead first before going up to the fourth floor obviously I would have I don't know I mean did you treat the second floor as the bridgehead where you had to have to pass entry control for

00:34:09 had to have to pass entry control for gain further I yeah well I left the I seek it on the second floor which is at a bridgehead so but what eyes actions would say that yes I treated it as a bridgehead yes right and did anybody

00:34:23 bridgehead yes right and did anybody clock you as it were going past the bridgehead up to the fire floor well well not be wearing breathing apparatus well without yes without wearing I don't know who's seen me but someone's

00:34:38 I don't know who's seen me but someone's gonna even if it went to the third floor to start up with our first line they still go and pass be a control yes so did you have any involvement in setting up the third floor line which would then be run up to the fourth floor limited

00:34:50 be run up to the fourth floor limited what was the limit of that activity I just turned the valve on so could you just talk me through what you did so you left the second floor but up the stairs to the third floor

00:35:01 to the third floor then what no no I didn't know I went up to the fourth floor right let me have

00:35:13 to the fourth floor right let me have confused you let me know okay floor floor free yes ii was actually the second on it okay yes i didn't go into

00:35:24 second on it okay yes i didn't go into that floor till a bit later on right so you went straight to the fourth floor from memory yes did you have any involvement in setting the hose into the dryer rising main on that floor yes

00:35:36 dryer rising main on that floor yes what was that involvement what did you do I think I plugged it in I don't remember opening the door for there for the riser and I turned on the

00:35:49 there for the riser and I turned on the valve okay and who was on the fourth floor in the lobby at that point do you remember memory serves me right I remember seeing father daughter and

00:36:03 remember seeing father daughter and father

00:36:04 father over for dinner dog ooh and Burton a yeah okay do you remember where firefighters brown and better be were at that stage I know okay and and after

00:36:15 that stage I know okay and and after you'd set the hose into the dryer rising outlet on the fourth floor what did you do next they don't know who plugged in

00:36:26 do next they don't know who plugged in the who plugged a branch into the end of the hose but it could have even been me but I don't know and went to turn on the valve okay and if you look at page 8 of

00:36:39 valve okay and if you look at page 8 of your statement for for paragraph down you describe in the first part of that paragraph what

00:36:54 the first part of that paragraph what Charlie better be and Danny Brown were doing you say they were there wearing being ready to break into the flat did you see them doing that yes yes then you

00:37:07 you see them doing that yes yes then you say crew manager secret was probably there too you say probably do you remember him being there or no I don't it's very hard to remember who was there

00:37:19 it's very hard to remember who was there actually he straight after this incident I still couldn't remember who and then you say I didn't see any smoke in the lobby or coming from flat 16 at this point I couldn't smell anything and I

00:37:32 point I couldn't smell anything and I could I couldn't hear a smoke alarm going off it all appeared very normal you say very normal is it is it normal in a high-rise block to have no alarms

00:37:44 in a high-rise block to have no alarms going off at all when you attend a flat fire I would expect the alarm to be going off on a flat that was on fire yes other than that I think the point I

00:37:57 yes other than that I think the point I was trying to make is that it wasn't a it was a normal fire position the point I was trying to make for that do you remember who laid out the hose once

00:38:08 remember who laid out the hose once you'd set it into the dry riser no okay

00:38:15 was there let me ask that did you have to wait long between setting the hose into the dry riser and how is being charged ready for entry into flats no we

00:38:27 charged ready for entry into flats no we said when I said it my statement maybe 30 seconds were less than minute it didn't seem like we had to wait for the water as soon as we plugged it in and I

00:38:38 water as soon as we plugged it in and I went to turn it on and there was no water I don't think the crews were ready to go in anyway yeah and you then say in the third paragraph on page nine

00:38:59 that you can't remember whether it was batted B or brown who put the door of the flat on fire in but as they did this I was standing five or six meters away on the other side of the lobby with my

00:39:10 on the other side of the lobby with my back to the wall by the dry riser

00:39:14 could you see them from where you were standing

00:39:18 standing I see yes you could see or you had a view across the lobby did you I was yeah looking across the lobby by the door to the stairs right did you how good was

00:39:29 the stairs right did you how good was your view of the front door of flat 16 at that I could see the full door other than the the crew stand in front of it okay

00:39:41 and if you look at

00:39:47 that paragraph a little bit further on you say I think they squirted some water around the door first and then it might have taken a couple of goes to get it

00:39:58 have taken a couple of goes to get it open is that is that a couple of goes with the enforcer yeah I said it may have might have just gone in one if there was no real problem with putting

00:40:09 there was no real problem with putting and putting in the door okay and then you say however as soon as they did this thick black smoke came through the top of the door into the lift lobby the

00:40:20 of the door into the lift lobby the smoke came out of the top forty centimeters of the doorway and was rolling across the top of the lobby ceiling yes but is that that is that how you remember it that is how I remember

00:40:31 you remember it that is how I remember it yes now you say it was thick black smoke seeing thick black smoke what did that tell you about the nature or seriousness of the fire in it in flat sixty I would say it was a quite a

00:40:46 sixty I would say it was a quite a serious fire it to me it seemed like it might been going for a while I guess yet for a further and my statement I didn't

00:40:57 for a further and my statement I didn't think that it was gonna be like a backdraft situation right did you say I was slightly taken aback by the amount of smoke that came out of the door as it

00:41:08 of smoke that came out of the door as it was a little more than I was expecting what were you expecting well obviously not that I'm soon why were you expecting obviously not that uh the fire loaded we were called to a fire in the kitchen we've probably

00:41:20 to a fire in the kitchen we've probably little fight little fire loading or fuel to the fire we got there quite quick and it seemed as though there was a lot more

00:41:32 it seemed as though there was a lot more smoke than I was expecting to be in a flat for a small fire I presume you're going to write okay and then you say at

00:41:43 going to write okay and then you say at the end of that paragraph the thick black color of the smoke made me think that it wasn't a ventilated fire and that it was contained within the flat

00:41:55 that it was contained within the flat could you just explain by what you mean by a ventilated fire the smoke that was coming out was replaced for a Edie was

00:42:08 coming out was replaced for a Edie was going in underneath it which I presumed at the time meant that it was in it was still contained in that compartment

00:42:20 still contained in that compartment right is that clear subject to my next question yes it is but my next question is why does the D color have smoke

00:42:32 is why does the D color have smoke change when a fire is ventilated I wouldn't say that maybe a the colorless smoke changes but it's the density Rho density advantages right and once the doors are flat 16 had been opened is it

00:42:43 doors are flat 16 had been opened is it right that you then left the 4th floor and went up to the fifth floor with an exchange of words with far far Badillo yes well let's just look at that so you

00:42:54 yes well let's just look at that so you you have an exchange of words I'm not sure that's in your in your statement but doesn't matter could just tell us about the exchange of words well first of all where where was firefighter

00:43:06 of all where where was firefighter Badillo when you spoke to him about you're going upstairs we'd just come out of the de flat that they put the door in I believe well Dave was definitely in

00:43:19 I believe well Dave was definitely in front of me I must have been on the way through the door when they put the door in and we stopped outside the door in his days of the fourth floor I was a few

00:43:33 his days of the fourth floor I was a few steps down from Dave and that's when he told me that his batteries run out so I gave him one of my spare yes as you say and then actually picking that up we can in your statement if you

00:43:45 that up we can in your statement if you look at the bottom of page 9 you say we were in the stairs for about a minute this is just after the hall a bit about the battery and a half before I thought I would go and see if the fire had spread upstairs or if anyone was up

00:43:57 spread upstairs or if anyone was up there

00:43:59 there is that something you told mr. firefighter Badillo yep I I may have sent it to him well we split up so he I'd say that he knew I was going up like

00:44:10 I'd say that he knew I was going up like I wouldn't I don't know everyone actually said it to him Patel was going up he didn't you don't know you don't know whether you did or didn't do you I don't know where writes he said it to him well he would have been away because he went down and I went up I see did he

00:44:24 he went down and I went up I see did he see him did he see you going up I think he did yes as far as you remember as far as I remember yes okay now you'd arrived at cranville tower at 59 minutes past

00:44:38 cranville tower at 59 minutes past midnight can you estimate the time when you left the fourth floor to lobby to go up to the fifth floor it was immediately

00:44:50 up to the fifth floor it was immediately after me and Dave were on the stairs I don't know a minute after they put the door in I wouldn't like to guess the timeline doesn't seem to be shockingly

00:45:02 timeline doesn't seem to be shockingly wrong with that right now just picking it back up then at the bottom very bottom of page 9 I've just shown you this you say you were in the stairs for

00:45:15 this you say you were in the stairs for about a minute and a half before I thought I would go up and see if the fire spread upstairs or if anyone was up there and then over the page you continue in your statement you say I was the first person to go up the stairs it's not necessarily my job to go and

00:45:26 it's not necessarily my job to go and check the other floors as we did have two crew managers there however because we had extra firefighters there that night I thought that I would check to see if the floor above was alight I'm

00:45:38 see if the floor above was alight I'm just pausing there did anybody ask you to go up the stairs and check the other floors no so you did that off your own bat um yes I did would

00:45:52 that off your own bat um yes I did would that be would it be normal at an ordinary what you thought was an ordinary high-rise fire for a firefighter to decide for himself or herself to explore another part of the

00:46:04 herself to explore another part of the building I can't speak for every other firefighter but after seeing smoke coming out of a flat on the fourth floor I thought I'd investigate to see if

00:46:18 I thought I'd investigate to see if we've had any effects on a fifth look what was it about what you saw of the smoke coming out of the flat on the fourth floor that you thought might need investigating on the fifth floor just as

00:46:32 investigating on the fifth floor just as I said before the density of the smoke may be but I was I just took it upon myself to kind of a look you know were you concerned that they might be spread up the building at that point not at

00:46:46 up the building at that point not at that point no what made you think that it was necessary to make the trip up a floor instinct instinct yes it's interesting and this dis instinct based

00:46:58 interesting and this dis instinct based on the experience I I don't know I could only imagine it is instinct looking it at what there was I'm only guessing here

00:47:11 at what there was I'm only guessing here now unfortunately but from as we had so many people there David it wasn't necessarily anything for me to do as

00:47:22 necessarily anything for me to do as such so I just thought I would take a look upstairs I maybe call it instinct

00:47:39 was there something particular about what you'd seen in the fight enough fire and the flag will smoke from the flattened on the fourth floor that triggered this instinct possibly I

00:47:54 triggered this instinct possibly I couldn't if I had a different job to do I probably wouldn't have gone upstairs

00:48:07 did you communicate your decision to go upstairs to anybody no only as I say I don't know about said it to Dave Badillo so no but I certainly didn't say

00:48:18 so no but I certainly didn't say anything on the radio and you had a radio with you didn't do fine yes yes tuned to channel one yes it was if you'd

00:48:30 tuned to channel one yes it was if you'd wanted to tell anybody where you were going who would who would you have communicated with I was I would have

00:48:47 communicated with I was I would have nothing to report back if I were to tell someone I suppose everything goes back to the officer in charge really but but I didn't you didn't did anything make

00:49:00 I didn't you didn't did anything make you suspect at that point was you left the 4th floor and went to the fifth that the fire had started to spread upstairs not before I opened the door after 5th floor lobby no you say in the next

00:49:13 floor lobby no you say in the next sentence in the first paragraph on page 10 I could have put a be a set on but I felt the due to my lack level of experience I was better place to go and see what was going on with the other floors and that if I reported something

00:49:27 floors and that if I reported something watch man had manager doubt and he would take me more seriously than perhaps other firefighters from the start I did not expect the flood at Fir to have spread to multiple floors it looks from

00:49:40 spread to multiple floors it looks from that mystery burn that your purpose in deciding for yourself to go and look and see what was happening on the other floors was because if something wasn't

00:49:51 floors was because if something wasn't this up there you could report to watch manager Dowd and who would then take you seriously because of your experience yeah make yourself look 3 yes I believe

00:50:04 yeah make yourself look 3 yes I believe that that would have been the case yes so would it not have been important if you did find something on the fifth floor that you thought your experience required you to report to him to report

00:50:17 required you to report to him to report it to him yes okay well we'll come we'll come to that let's let's get yourself let's get you up to the fifth floor yeah you go to the fifth floor and you you describe your

00:50:28 fifth floor and you you describe your your trip to it you say I don't remember passing anyone all the stairs as I went up can I just ask you what were the conditions the air conditions in the stair won't like it they're clear they

00:50:40 stair won't like it they're clear they were clear they were clear yes and then you say you didn't feel any level of urgency as you went up then you say as I walked from the stairwell into the fifth floor lobby it was clear of smoke but a

00:50:52 floor lobby it was clear of smoke but a family of three people had just come out of the flat that was directly above the flat above the flat 16 and they told you that your kitchen the Beckett room was

00:51:04 that your kitchen the Beckett room was alight yes ok do you remember what they said to you remember their words not remembering now no okay and what was your reaction to that at the time what

00:51:15 your reaction to that at the time what did you think I I didn't doubt them I guess but I thought it might be just smoke right because you say at the end

00:51:30 smoke right because you say at the end of the first paragraph on page 10 that from the start I did not expect the fire to have spread to multiple floors so when the family come out from the flat immediately above flat 16 and tell you

00:51:41 immediately above flat 16 and tell you that their kitchen was alight was that news to you which would be it would be surprising yes of course it wouldn't be surprising yes and what did you do next

00:51:56 surprising yes and what did you do next when they told you that their kitchen was alight I looked through their letterbox and didn't see any smoke

00:52:07 and then in the next okay well before we leave them and what happened to that family where did they go do you know I believe they went downstairs right and

00:52:21 believe they went downstairs right and then you say in the second paragraph on page 10 four lines up from the bottom as I looked through the letterbox of their flat it and it seemed like it was nicely wallpapered and was brightly lit as the

00:52:32 wallpapered and was brightly lit as the hallway light was on I couldn't see or smell any smoke from with it within from the flatness would be from within the flat although I have no recollection of any smells from that night however I

00:52:43 any smells from that night however I presume the family must have shut their kitchen door what did that tell you you look in you see no smoke what did you

00:52:54 look in you see no smoke what did you think was going on within that flat well I presumed that there was no one in there obviously because the family had left and they shot the door behind him by mistake I can only work off what

00:53:10 by mistake I can only work off what they've told me and they said that the kitchen was alight so I I've radioed down to say that the kitchens are light

00:53:21 down to say that the kitchens are light and we needed to be a crew and breaking in gear yes and that you say in the next paragraph in your statement you just have that on the screen and I just want to focus on your communications with

00:53:33 to focus on your communications with wash manager dad and if I if I can

00:53:39 you radio down to watch manager Darden where were you standing when you did that I was standing in the lift Lobby on the fifth floor outside the door of de

00:53:52 the fifth floor outside the door of de flat right flat what was it 26 ugly and when you say said something along the lines of flat above the fire floor is on fire there kitchen as a light we need a

00:54:04 fire there kitchen as a light we need a be a crew and breaking ingot those are the words you set into the radio are they yes I believe so ever I've said about the kitchen but I definitely said we did but crew up here the flatten about the fire floor is alight and we

00:54:18 about the fire floor is alight and we need a be a crew with breaking ingame and as far as you're concerned did you think Mike Davin heard what you'd said this obviously this message is directed at Mike Dowden but it's also for

00:54:30 at Mike Dowden but it's also for everybody else on the fire ground right so who will hopefully pick up the message obviously okay and do you or did you think at the time but Mike Davin had

00:54:42 you think at the time but Mike Davin had picked that up at song yes at the time and how did you think he would have picked that up by what mechanism or medium would he have heard you make this

00:54:53 medium would he have heard you make this message sorry to mean did I use my radio well you were using your radio what would my dad have received the message on on his handheld radio right so it would have broadcast on his handheld

00:55:04 would have broadcast on his handheld radio to him it would it yes okay and how would other people have heard that message do you think well at the time

00:55:15 message do you think well at the time that message is also directed at other trucks coming in onto the fire ground that will be half of a be a where is right and which channel you want channel

00:55:27 right and which channel you want channel one so is it right that everyone who was tuned into channel 1 and receiving channel or messages would have heard that message I believe so yes do you do you remember anybody communicating back

00:55:40 you remember anybody communicating back to you that your message had been received and understood by anybody no would it be normal for you to receive such a message if in fact that message had been

00:55:52 if in fact that message had been received and understood by any holiday it's it's not you may get response it's

00:56:03 it's it's not you may get response it's not unusual if you do not get response okay so the fact that you didn't get a response didn't tell you anything one way or the other did it about whether your message has been received and understood that's correct yes just

00:56:14 understood that's correct yes just assumed it had yes okay watch manager Jotham says that he doesn't recall

00:56:25 Jotham says that he doesn't recall getting any kind of message like that from you

00:56:27 from you from the other floor yeah can you comment on that maybe he his radio might have transmitted and he was obviously very busy or it may not

00:56:39 very busy or it may not his radio may not have picked it up right so if his radio was on transmission because he was using it to send messages would that mean that he wouldn't be able to hear messages coming in when I sent that message there was no

00:56:53 in when I sent that message there was no one speaking on a radio because I sent a message I see was he did you attempt to speak to anybody other than Mike Dowden

00:57:04 speak to anybody other than Mike Dowden about what you'd found on the fifth floor

00:57:06 floor no I didn't know as I say this was a message that was sent out obviously it's directed at the officer in charge but it's to everybody on the fire ground to hear that the fire there's a fire above

00:57:19 hear that the fire there's a fire above the fire floor right did it did you try to send that message to the bridgehead on channel 6 not is there a reason why

00:57:30 on channel 6 not is there a reason why not

00:57:33 I have no reason why I didn't okay was that an option just sent if you couldn't get hold of might you thought you might got the message through to Mike okay I

00:57:44 got the message through to Mike okay I said I sent over to the bridgehead instead there was an option to change the channel six and see if I can get hold of the officer in charge at

00:57:55 hold of the officer in charge at appreciate yes I heard no doubt in my mind that that message has been sent and ever and everyone on the fire ground and received it you say

00:58:07 the fire ground and received it you say you have no doubt that is that that's that's right is it even though it had no confirmation that that message had been that's correct yes okay did you speak to anybody else on the fifth floor and you know any other

00:58:20 the fifth floor and you know any other occupants no twist that family to come out of flat to a six did you knock on any doors on the fifth no I didn't know did did did you think to do say did you think obviously not otherwise I would

00:58:32 think obviously not otherwise I would have before I would have done it but I didn't looking back now these questions aren't easy but looking back on it now is there a reason why you didn't knock on probably due to the stay-put policy

00:58:45 on probably due to the stay-put policy there was a fire in a compartment on that floor so I had I presumed it would stay on in

00:58:56 so I had I presumed it would stay on in that compartment okay

00:59:03 and did the fact that there was a fire in the flat or at least possibly smoking that flat alerts you to any problems

00:59:15 that flat alerts you to any problems with compartment ation in the building now you've been up there no I ate didn't it just to me a Windows gone and it's

00:59:28 it just to me a Windows gone and it's nicked up into another window is how I saw that situation at that time okay now the next thing you do and I'm

00:59:40 the next thing you do and I'm summarizing quite a bit of activity that you feel in your occasional statement is you go down to get an enforcer off off the pump off the ladder yes sir yes sir but another yes did anybody tell you to

00:59:51 but another yes did anybody tell you to do that or was that your own idea no it was purely my idea okay mr. chairman it's now hot past - yeah this has been

01:00:02 it's now hot past - yeah this has been going for a good hour I'm in the middle of a line of questions but this might be the prey for it maybe let's see mr. Bernheim getting off and we didn't sound perfect yeah that's all probably could

01:00:14 perfect yeah that's all probably could you finish this topic within say ten minutes or so yes

01:00:28 did you tell watch manager doubted that you were off to get an enforcer off the punt ladder no okay and what about people at the bridgehead did you tell them and that's where you were going

01:00:39 them and that's where you were going so be honest no I didn't I didn't tell anyone I don't actually remember seeing anyone right how could how could watch manager doubt and keep tabs on you if you weren't telling him where you were

01:00:50 you weren't telling him where you were going and what you were doing he can't really keep tabs he's got more important things to be doing then knowing where his firefighters are I guess

01:01:01 his firefighters are I guess is that right is it not important for an incident commander anyway yeah well his firefighters are obviously he's former concern is us but we're off doing stuff right is that how it works in general in

01:01:14 right is that how it works in general in your experience that actually there's a fair measure of discretion given to the firefighters on the fire ground to do what they think is best to tackle as long as I come back I'm on pace yeah I guess well maybe not

01:01:25 guess well maybe not just do what they want not obviously procedures in place we might dad has an expectation of us of what we do right what about bridgehead command is the

01:01:39 what about bridgehead command is the same apply could be key how could they keep tabs on you if you didn't date they like but just keep tabs on the Civil War him treating the freitas it's within

01:01:50 him treating the freitas it's within reason yeah I see so they're their concern is the VA where is going up and into the tower and down again rather than anything else more widely on the fire ground design I would say - yes I

01:02:01 fire ground design I would say - yes I would say sir now if you look at page 11 of your statement paragraph 2 you say that as I make my way down the stairwell

01:02:12 that as I make my way down the stairwell I don't remember there being any smoke when I went past the door to the fourth floor it was closed as lobby doors automatically closed behind you and I didn't see any smoke coming out into the

01:02:23 didn't see any smoke coming out into the stairwell so at that stage could you tell us where or what had happened to the hose that was supposed to be set into the third floor dry riser house

01:02:40 into the third floor dry riser house that was set into the third floor drawers I hadn't been I know now that hasn't been charged but it hadn't been taken out so I hadn't be charged hadn't

01:02:51 taken out so I hadn't be charged hadn't been taken out there just just the lift lobby area on the third floor and brought up at that stage right okay but just explains why the fourth floor lock door was closed yes as if it had been taken up it would

01:03:03 yes as if it had been taken up it would have been propped open is that's correct yes and in paragraph 3 of the same page as you say as I came out of the building I was focused on getting the breaking in

01:03:15 I was focused on getting the breaking in gear so I didn't pay much attention to who else was outside at the time did you look back up at the tower at that stage you know I didn't like did you hear anybody talking outside

01:03:26 did you hear anybody talking outside about how the fire was progressing I don't remember seeing anyone outside they know so I was at very unaware of what the the extent that a fire was could you just describe your your

01:03:38 could you just describe your your movements you exit the tower from the main entrance is that right that's correct yes and you go across to pump ladder yes to get the yes to get the

01:03:49 ladder yes to get the yes to get the there's a hydraulic ram or relook well we've used the enforcer to break the door and already in a smoke-filled lobby upstairs in the distance from the

01:04:00 upstairs in the distance from the entrance to the tower and that pump ladder was was what best part with maybe 10 meters or so it's a few steps to go

01:04:14 10 meters or so it's a few steps to go to the pump ladder in there back in there probably about 10 good strides I guess yep 10 good strides alright and it just cut them through this you get to the pump ladder you find there's no

01:04:26 the pump ladder you find there's no enforcer and you decide to get back up to the second floor I think that's summarizing what you say in your third paragraph on page 11 yes and you say you think it the last

01:04:39 and you say you think it the last sentence it took me I think it took me about two and a half minutes to get down from the fifth floor outside of the pub header and back up the stairs yeah and then you you say you didn't put a be a

01:04:54 then you you say you didn't put a be a set on and then in the last paragraph on page 11 however when I went back into the building I'm not sure why but I actually ended up going on to the third floor rather than the second floor was

01:05:05 floor rather than the second floor was that a mistake tend to go to the second floor but ended up on the third I may have gone into the I think I've brought the sledgehammer up I don't even know where I put it I must have put it appreciate on the second

01:05:17 have put it appreciate on the second floor

01:05:17 floor I'm not hungry since your I definitely went into the third floor did you pass the bridgehead on the way up as I say I don't even know ever I went into the bridgehead I can't

01:05:28 bridgehead I can't you remember I don't remember seeing anyone I don't remember stop it at the second floor I just remember at the fire engine walking towards the pump when I

01:05:40 engine walking towards the pump when I couldn't find the hydraulic ram and then the next meeting I was on the third floor so when you were going to the third floor or or when you arrived the

01:05:51 third floor or or when you arrived the third floor did you tell anyone where you were or where you were going no did you know at this stage whether there was any kind of plan as how best

01:06:04 there was any kind of plan as how best to assist the occupants of the building in terms of rescue or identification no

01:06:15 continuing in the last paragraph on page 11 if we can you say when I went to the third on to the third floor I found firefighter door GU who had plugged in the hose and flaked it out to get it

01:06:27 the hose and flaked it out to get it ready and then you describe how the firefighter Pattillo would have helped him and you then go on and explain how

01:06:39 him and you then go on and explain how the valve works yes

01:06:46 you explained them bottom you say either firefighters are a doggie or firefighter but did the delay Padilla I'm sorry have smashed the glass window to make a hole

01:06:57 smashed the glass window to make a hole through which to plug in the hose probably because we didn't have the keys to this door yes let me go over the pages are however this caused a problem as we would normally turn for a turn the

01:07:15 as we would normally turn for a turn the valve on from above that the hole was made below the valve and then you explained about what the difficulties were with that and I've read you that it a little bit of length because you described the difficulties at length but my question is I think a simple one who

01:07:28 my question is I think a simple one who would you expect to have held the keys to the glass door protecting the dry riser valve on the third floor I don't know was it a surprise to you that you

01:07:40 know was it a surprise to you that you have to smash the glass I wouldn't have said yeah no it's not surprised that I didn't obviously smash the glass it was broken before I got there but no I

01:07:51 broken before I got there but no I wouldn't be surprised that the glass had to be smashed to plug the hug him it's not a normal thing in your experience just have to smash I've seen it done before I think yes right okay

01:08:08 you then describe in the next paragraph

01:08:21 that you told firefighter dog uber the flat on the fifth floor was alight when you say he said something like you mean it's smoke but I said no but people coming out said it's a light

01:08:33 coming out said it's a light I left firefighter doggy with the hose and went back up to the fifth floor do you know whether firefighter door GU

01:08:46 you know whether firefighter door GU communicated what you told to him to anybody else I don't know

01:08:57 you left firefighter doggy as you say with the hose that's on the third floor and you went back up to the fifth floor what were the conditions like in the stairwell on the way back from the third

01:09:08 stairwell on the way back from the third to the fifth floor at this point they were fine fine correctly and were people coming down what was the traffic light on the stairs I don't remember but they could have been people passing me but I just don't remember right mr. Damon odd

01:09:24 just don't remember right mr. Damon odd to deal with return to the fifth floor flat yes yeah convenient yes I think mr.

01:09:35 flat yes yeah convenient yes I think mr. Bohm we will have a break now so you go to the UH show will resume at five to three

01:09:56 right five to three please

01:10:06 you

01:26:06 right mr. uber yes thank you sir good yes just a minute serve on a couple of revision questions if I may

01:26:14 if I may upon first of all going back to your training and lessons learned in the light of lack and all house do you remember whether there was any discussion or education given to you or

01:26:28 discussion or education given to you or in which you were involved after the after National House in 2009 about whether the stay-put policy should be revised not to my knowledge no no and

01:26:39 revised not to my knowledge no no and secondly we talked to moment ago before the break about your activities on the third floor helping firefighter dog who lay out the hose breaking the glass on

01:26:50 lay out the hose breaking the glass on the dry rising main outlet do you remember whether you knocked on any doors on the third floor no I when I walked into the Fertile lobby all are done was turn the valve on

01:27:01 lobby all are done was turn the valve on everything I didn't do anything with a house right and I didn't knock on any doors I was only there for ever a short period time okay do you know whether anybody else on that floor I've knocked on any doors I don't know okay

01:27:13 on any doors I don't know okay I'm going back to your trip to the fifth floor are you able to estimate at what time you returned to the fifth floor no

01:27:27 time you returned to the fifth floor no came in to the building again with a sledge which I don't remember carrying actually I don't know where I left to stay so I went straight to the third floor I believe so I don't know it was

01:27:38 floor I believe so I don't know it was if you have a time stamp on when I re-entered the building I would say it would couldn't be more than two minutes after that that I reinterred the fifth floor yeah

01:27:54 yeah yes

01:28:03 and when you got to the fifth floor were you alone yes was there any smoke in the fifth floor lobby once he left the stairwell no could you smell anything

01:28:16 could you smell anything no I couldn't smell anything all no I have no memory of smelling anything all night no you said before okay and you returned to the flat where you were talk what we were told the fire was and that

01:28:28 what we were told the fire was and that was directly above flat 16 is that right yes could you see the number of the flat on the flat front door no I don't remember it was that number I only found

01:28:39 remember it was that number I only found out it was that number after okay I I said it was the fire above the fire floor okay now if you could go please to page 12 of your statement page 12 of

01:28:51 page 12 of your statement page 12 of your statement and you say in the third line however when I looked through the letterbox I had looked through earlier there was thick black smoke inside the

01:29:03 there was thick black smoke inside the hallway of a flat and I could no longer see anything inside I couldn't see the wallpaper and I couldn't tell whether the light was on or off and you say

01:29:15 the light was on or off and you say smoke is normally thicker at the top which is probably why I couldn't see the light but I remember thinking that whatever was burning had gone up really quickly due to the amount of smoke that had accumulated in there three or four

01:29:26 had accumulated in there three or four minutes since I first looked through the letterbox I thought this was really quite serious as something was burning really quickly well they still didn't think at that stage that people were going to die or anything like that now

01:29:37 going to die or anything like that now let me just ask you about that I've read it out to you in full because there are a number of questions I've got about it first of all you say there was thick black smoke inside the hallway of the

01:29:48 black smoke inside the hallway of the flat yes and you could no longer see anything inside is that that's how you remember it is it just completely black just through looking at the letterbox yeah and what in the light of the change

01:30:02 yeah and what in the light of the change that you had seen between your first trip and your second trip only a few minutes later back up to the fifth law what did that change in the smoke conditions inside the flat tell you

01:30:13 conditions inside the flat tell you about the nature of the fire inside the something was burning would just given off a lot of smoke so I believe that that time it was more serious not first of all right and did you have any

01:30:29 of all right and did you have any thoughts that about whether the fire had spread from the fourth to the fifth floor yes yeah and what were those thoughts what did you think well I thought they had spread to the fifth

01:30:40 thought they had spread to the fifth floor obviously after their tenants or the occupant left the flat and said it was alight I didn't I wouldn't start doubted him though it was a light but I felt at that time the second time I look

01:30:51 felt at that time the second time I look for the letterbox I it was pretty much confirmed and after that would have been a lie it confirmed and did that confirm to you that compartment ation as between the fourth and the fifth floor had failed this could have been through an

01:31:05 failed this could have been through an open window so but yes I believe that there was now two compartments on fire in that building right did you think

01:31:18 in that building right did you think that it was important at that stage to tell anybody on the fire ground below what you had just seen through the letterbox in that flat I was I believed

01:31:30 letterbox in that flat I was I believed that my message was received the first time around I think I might have said it in my statement I can't remember whether I sent a second message about the fifth floor well I'll come to that but I'm

01:31:42 floor well I'll come to that but I'm just at the point of I'm just at the point of you look you through the letterbox did you did you radio anybody down at that point and say the flats full of thick smoke I think by never has gone no but if the compartment is filed

01:31:55 gone no but if the compartment is filed from downstairs to upstairs it would have gone for a window so that would have been visible from outside right you say that would have been was that your assumption at the time that was my assumption at the time if one

01:32:06 assumption at the time if one compartment is fouled is gone for a window okay did you take any steps to notify the remaining occupants of the fifth floor of the presence of fire on their floor no is there a reason why

01:32:19 their floor no is there a reason why there is no reason why I just well from the stay-put not yes they put policy is that no other compartment was involved so I guess

01:32:30 compartment was involved so I guess through training and stuff I didn't think that any other compartment was going to be involved okay did you speak to anybody else at all on the fifth

01:32:42 to anybody else at all on the fifth floor about the presence of no not from one No

01:32:53 now in the

01:32:59 second last paragraph on page 12 just look down at that for a moment you say however as I didn't have a be a set pose or crew I thought there was nothing I could do on the fifth floor I was still

01:33:12 could do on the fifth floor I was still thinking that hammer Smith's crew would be coming up with a couple of ba sets and they would come straight in I devil decided to go up to check the sixth floor and did you take any steps to find

01:33:24 floor and did you take any steps to find out why the hammersmith crew Emma Smith PA crew had not yet arrived no I mean you obviously won't go to make entry

01:33:35 you obviously won't go to make entry into that flat well so let me put the question slightly less leading Lee did you have any thoughts about whether you would now put the door in and attempt to tackle the fire no and just explain why

01:33:47 tackle the fire no and just explain why that was I didn't have water B I said explain Holmes I was on my own I was obviously in Lukaku well-established firing in at this stage I certainly wasn't gonna break the door

01:33:59 I certainly wasn't gonna break the door down low did you think at the time that it was important to get a BA crew with water up there as soon as possible to attack that fire when I looked through I still yes to a level yes it would have

01:34:13 still yes to a level yes it would have been quite quite important but it was nothing I was gonna be able to do to hurry him up the stairs I still thought that it was now just two compartments are light yes you say there was nothing

01:34:24 are light yes you say there was nothing you could do to hurry them up the stairs did you think at the time of radioing down to the bridgehead switching to channel 6 radioing don't the bridgehead and saying send the hammersmith ba guys up fast yeah well I might have said

01:34:37 up fast yeah well I might have said about how much me if I presumed it was both trucks were going to come mate it could have been any be a crew you know I didn't think of changing to channel 6 to say that there was a

01:34:49 channel 6 to say that there was a fireman er and do do you know why that and what about radiating down to Mike doubt and again to say it's urgent

01:35:00 doubt and again to say it's urgent you've got to send a pair of BA whereas and some water up to the flat because I feel now because I believed it my message I first sent was received by

01:35:12 message I first sent was received by people on fire ground okay but even though you'd now seen the fire become more serious in flat 26 for yourself you didn't still deed that's you as I say from my understanding that it's gone

01:35:24 from my understanding that it's gone from one window to another it will be seen from the outside so I didn't think I was the only person on fire ground it was note that a flat above the fire foot floor was alight okay and at the bottom

01:35:37 floor was alight okay and at the bottom of the page you say I I don't remember radioing watch manager down and again regarding this flat before I left the 5th floor as I normally try to keep radio traffic to a

01:35:49 normally try to keep radio traffic to a minimum

01:35:49 minimum I had already sent a message to get a crew to attend and the radio should only be used for important things my question is well was that not an important thing to extinguish the fire in flat 26 to

01:36:02 to extinguish the fire in flat 26 to justify sorry yeah cause it's yeah of course it's very important but as I say be de fire is broken out of one window and gone into another so it will be visible from the outside so me

01:36:13 visible from the outside so me confirming that there's a fire and a flat where they can see from the outside yeah one of the reasons why I wouldn't want to take up radio traffic yes in

01:36:24 want to take up radio traffic yes in your statement at the top of page 13 you say however my notes which were made after the incident state that I again radio watch manager Davin again to tell him about the worsening conditions

01:36:36 him about the worsening conditions before I went up to the sixth floor you do indeed do that I shave them notify if I can that it's page two of the

01:36:50 I can that it's page two of the contemporaneous notes the first set yes I'd like you to look at that please okay be shown that and Mister trial directive

01:37:01 be shown that and Mister trial directive that is M et quadruple zero five three three seven

01:37:20 and if you maybe know maybe it's 533 8 I think there are two sets

01:37:33 yes thank you now if you look at page two if you look at halfway Duncan tonight itself can you read that on the screen I ain't gonna fit me big enough I probably couldn't read it well copy

01:37:49 that's your handwriting is it yes bigger I think well we can read it so you're being really hard on yourself can we just follow it down you say I then went

01:38:03 just follow it down you say I then went back to the fifth floor approximately three to five minutes after and then help me my initial entry to the lobby of the fifth floor

01:38:14 the fifth floor yeah that right am i reading it right yeah yeah I looked through the letterbox and the flat was filled with thick black smoke radio to watch manager davon again

01:38:26 smoke radio to watch manager davon again and described rapid worsening conditions now this contemporaneous note was done as I understand it but you tell me when

01:38:38 as I understand it but you tell me when was that done that was done most of it the next morning straight after the fire and then I went home to have a sleep and then come back and finish that offer and about 8:00 that evening okay

01:38:49 about 8:00 that evening okay looking at the contemporaneous note that you did that too just after the fire do you think that it's right that you did radio down to watch manager Darden again and tell him about the rap were seing

01:39:00 and tell him about the rap were seing rapidly worsening conditions I would say that the my notes here were probably right but I obviously after doing my police statement obviously doubted

01:39:12 police statement obviously doubted myself okay

01:39:18 and again do you have any recollection about receiving any kind of kind of condemnation from doubt and or anybody else on the fire ground about the message at sentiment no did you have any

01:39:32 message at sentiment no did you have any reason to think that your communications will work nor might not be working at that stage no could you test them did you try to test them with anybody else nah

01:39:42 nah did it occur to you that it might be strange that no one was speaking to you

01:39:52 okay did anybody did anybody this stage know where you were apart perhaps from firefighter dogger who you told you were

01:40:04 firefighter dogger who you told you were going back up to the fifth floor no ok so we've you then say at the end of paragraph 1 on page 13 you say radio

01:40:17 of paragraph 1 on page 13 you say radio wash manager Darden before I went up to the sixth floor then you described in the next paragraph how you made your way up the stairs how soon after you think

01:40:32 up the stairs how soon after you think radioing watch manager down who did you did you go up to the sixth floor immediately after immediately after and was that trip a part of the trip under

01:40:45 was that trip a part of the trip under instruction or off you're in that it was off my own back

01:40:52 you then say in the first paragraph or first main paragraph on page 13 because make my way up the stairs conditions in the stairwell were normal and free of smoke I'm not sure anyone passed me on

01:41:03 smoke I'm not sure anyone passed me on the stairs as I went up once I was on the sixth floor I went straight to the door of the flat that was directly above

01:41:15 door of the flat that was directly above the other flats on fire it was a little bit smoking in the lobby and then up then you go on to describe a spanish-speaking family of three coming out I'll come back to that but just in

01:41:26 out I'll come back to that but just in terms of the conditions in the sixth floor lobby that mr. Ed Byrne you say it was a little bit smoky could you describe that smoke for us first of you can see across the lobby it wasn't it

01:41:39 can see across the lobby it wasn't it was darkish I guess in color not very like white smoke it would have been a darker darker gray I guess but visibility was okay right and what if

01:41:50 visibility was okay right and what if anything did the presence of smoke in the lift lobby on the sixth floor tell you about the progress of the fire that you had seen so far it to me it seemed like it would been going up through

01:42:02 like it would been going up through maybe opened windows or something at a time right so did you have any thoughts about whether it was progressing through the building in any other way the fire

01:42:14 the building in any other way the fire the fight no no just purely outside right now as I've just shown you in your statement you go on to say as I approached the door a spanish-speaking

01:42:26 approached the door a spanish-speaking family of three were coming out of their flat again the same door two floors above the fire floor and heading towards the door to the stairs now I just pause there

01:42:40 did you did you say anything to them to this family I would have said some long line so if there's anyone in there and would have direct them towards the

01:42:51 would have direct them towards the stairs to go down and you say halfway down the paragraphs is you can't remember your conversation with them other than telling them telling me that

01:43:02 other than telling them telling me that their flat was alight I asked him whether there was anyone else inside I don't remember what they replied but I'm certain that they did not say yes in response to this question did you

01:43:14 response to this question did you examine their flat did you look inside it I went to the door yes was the door well you say in the next census like they'd closed the front door of that flat but I could still open it so did you actually open their front door I'm

01:43:26 you actually open their front door I'm sure I looked inside that flat yes how far open to do you think I didn't open I would've opened it totally but I'd have I bet to have a look and then would've shot it again I think and you described

01:43:38 shot it again I think and you described a smoke you say as I did this it was heavily smoke logged inside the flat I could see a wall of thick black smoke from floor to ceiling which was grey at the bottom and darker at the top thick

01:43:49 the bottom and darker at the top thick black smoke came out of the door into the lobby so I quickly closed the door again what did the what did that smoke and those conditions tell you on the

01:44:03 and those conditions tell you on the sixth floor about the way in which this file is now behaving I it told me that the fire is at that time I felt was going from one window to another upwards

01:44:16 going from one window to another upwards right

01:44:20 so where would the smoke have been coming from what would have been burning to produce smoke like that in the flat or the 6th floor now two floors above the fire did you think I thought I'm I

01:44:32 the fire did you think I thought I'm I do I didn't even pay too much for tension I just need it now it's another flat was alight you thought another flat was alight yeah another will not be

01:44:43 was alight yeah another will not be there third one isn't it we're on floor six now we said that in the first flutter like that I it's what I thought right so the smoke that you saw you didn't think of just getting just clarifying your evidence I think yeah correct me if I'm wrong it's does it did

01:44:55 correct me if I'm wrong it's does it did it work this way that you now thought having seen the smoke in this flat which is two floors above the fire floor that there were now three separate flats separately alight yet they've told me

01:45:07 separately alight yet they've told me the flat was a light if I remember rightly yes so I thought that that was free flats alike so this wasn't just smoke propagating from the fourth floor coming into the fifth floor and the sixth floor is the three separate fires no I'm sure they told me that they're

01:45:19 no I'm sure they told me that they're deaf that was a light yeah okay and what did that tell you now about the extent of the breach of compartment ation in the building if anything it whether I

01:45:35 the building if anything it whether I paid it any attention at all at that time you know all I could say it was maybe that I do I would have thought that the windows ripen obviously a level

01:45:47 that the windows ripen obviously a level of concern because our quickest you know three floors have gone up yeah three floors were like now yeah quicker than I go up the stairs it felt so yeah I was I was a great concern I did a growing concern with it

01:46:02 yes and did you have any thoughts about how serious the situation was becoming I

01:46:13 was doing it with the hair and now I didn't I didn't yeah I thought three flats are alike I thought we could go and put three flats out

01:46:35 on page 13 in the next paragraph down you say although the fire had spread upwards it thought I think you must mean

01:46:46 upwards it thought I think you must mean I thought that it was still contained that was only as it was only two floors above the fire floor it still seemed like quite a normal fire at this point therefore I didn't think it was

01:46:57 therefore I didn't think it was necessary to knock on everyone's doors and tell them to get out or that I had time to do this when there were more important things I should be doing all flats are basically

01:47:08 should be doing all flats are basically concrete blocks are normally the only place of thought of fire encased in concrete might spread is upwards can I just ask you about that evidence you're

01:47:22 just ask you about that evidence you're you feel faced with three separate fires on three separate floors which had started in one place in one flat on one finger

01:47:30 finger yes why do you say there that you thought it was still contained it was contained two free flat since at the time was what I thought did you have any

01:47:42 time was what I thought did you have any thoughts about its progress do you you may not at the speed in which it said three flats of light will never let me

01:47:54 three flats of light will never let me be clear you say I thought it was still contained but it had gone I think quite quickly from a flat fire in one flat to a fire in the flat above it and then a fire in the flat above that yes that

01:48:06 fire in the flat above that yes that doesn't sound too the unskilled well I like me to an undertone to a contained fire obviously while the police statement was written after I knew the

01:48:20 statement was written after I knew the outcome of that night that's why I tried to put it in maybe layman's terms

01:48:28 so just trying to get a clarity on your thoughts at the time at that moment you saw the third fire I found yeah the the

01:48:39 saw the third fire I found yeah the the sixth floor what made you think at that stage that it was still contained and wouldn't progress further up the building bad choice of words it obviously wasn't contained there was free compartments no I liked it's the

01:48:52 free compartments no I liked it's the way I saw it and I didn't I was just dealing with the here and now I was trying to get the people out that flat and I still thought that it would only

01:49:03 and I still thought that it would only be those free compartments I see

01:49:18 did you take any steps to notify the remaining occupants of the sixth floor as to the presence of fire on that floor no can you explain why that because it's

01:49:32 no can you explain why that because it's only that flat that was involved in the fire a flat on the sixth floor that they family to come out order what was it twenty or thirty six yeah so that was the only flat on that floor

01:49:44 that was the only flat on that floor that was involved in the fire at that time off believed but at that stage you've got a flyer at the fire which is spread from fourth floor to fifth law set to the light fifth floor to sixth law set that flattened light so you've got three separate Flyers and it's there's no

01:49:56 separate Flyers and it's there's no guarantee it's going to stop at that stage did you begin to think at that stage that in fact the fire was now spreading and that people now needed to be alerted to the fact that there was a

01:50:07 be alerted to the fact that there was a fire on their floor no I did I didn't it didn't cross my mind to knock on their doors and try to get anybody out at a flat okay

01:50:23 you say in the paragraph I've just read to you in the second line it still seemed like quite a normal fire at this point is that is that right is it in your experience normal for a fire which

01:50:37 your experience normal for a fire which starts in Abram in one compartment in a high-rise to our blog to spread to the flat above and then the flat above that obviously it's not normal but as I said

01:50:49 obviously it's not normal but as I said if you take into context the after this was written after I found out what after that happened I was trying to maybe downplay if that's the right phrase to

01:51:02 downplay if that's the right phrase to use right and I'm just trying to see what what extent when you break up this in your police statement it really reflected what you you actually were thinking at the time so casting your mind back and forgetting

01:51:13 so casting your mind back and forgetting your police statement for a moment looking at the fact that you've now got a fire in flat 16 a flower in fact 26 and a fire a flat in flat 36 did you think well this is normal what did you

01:51:26 think well this is normal what did you think this is no it's obviously not normal it's it was broke into three flats well quick but I didn't expect it to break into many more quickly like in

01:51:41 to break into many more quickly like in highs or not why's that I just I I was dealing with what I saw at that time what was there was now free different flats alike that were in a

01:51:54 different flats alike that were in a line I didn't did you have any thoughts about the risk of lateral fire spread to me at the top no to me at the time it

01:52:05 me at the top no to me at the time it just seemed like it was affecting the flats in a straight line going vertical

01:52:16 and you say you didn't think you had a time to knock on other people's doors when there were more important things I should be doing could you just tell me what what were those more important

01:52:28 what what were those more important things you thought you should be doing I felt that the other flats on that floor were going to be safe and i radioed down

01:52:39 were going to be safe and i radioed down to say that they says there's two floors are like about to fire floor I know what it say investigate further if I go upstairs because who did you say you

01:52:50 upstairs because who did you say you radioed down yes that you you do indeed say that just look at the last paragraph on page 13 of your statement you said radiates down to the governor sorry wait

01:53:03 radiates down to the governor sorry wait for that to come up yeah there the last paragraph on page 13 i radioed down to the governor watch manager Dowden again but I didn't get any reply I didn't get a reply to any of the radio messages I've said to

01:53:15 any of the radio messages I've said to the government but I have seemed he was still very busy but that he could hear me on this occasion how comforta are

01:53:27 me on this occasion how comforta are confident are you that you didn't send that message from the sixth year yes yes you remember doing that yes I yeah I would do definitely

01:53:42 and do you remember getting any kind of confirmation no anybody know did that now that you saw three flats alike did not concern you that you weren't getting any

01:53:54 you that you weren't getting any confirmations or feedback from anybody at all no it didn't concern me I'm sure that at the time I was quite aware that if it was there was a fire in the flat

01:54:05 if it was there was a fire in the flat above and I've radioed that there it would have only breached by the window so I wasn't overly concerned that someone didn't get back to me because they were probably unaware of it just to get back to the question of lateral

01:54:16 get back to the question of lateral spread if I just discussed just a moment ago yeah I could just ask you one or two further questions about that is your experience that the lateral fire spread in that high-rise block is is rare I

01:54:31 in that high-rise block is is rare I don't know whether it's rare obviously the wind affects it and things like that so at that time it wasn't it wasn't something to cross my mind right evening have you have you any

01:54:43 right evening have you have you any personal experience as a frontline firefighter of dealing with lateral fire spread in the heart I haven't I haven't been on an incident not out by I'm aware of it I think we must have done case studies and stuff right did you know or

01:54:57 studies and stuff right did you know or have any training on how lateral fire spread happens what the mechanisms as I said I believe wind we complain embers

01:55:10 said I believe wind we complain embers in other than that I couldn't really go into the science of it right what about how the building is built how the building is constructed is that something that might affect the wing of

01:55:24 something that might affect the wing of a plane or something like that something does not let me ask the question did you ever have any training or did you have any firefighting experience about about the effect of building construction on

01:55:36 the effect of building construction on natural fire spread we might have but I don't remember any training on a circular building effect in it what did you know on the night of the Granville

01:55:47 you know on the night of the Granville town fire

01:55:48 town fire - how Grenville tower was built so as to be able to withstand the risk of lateral fire spread I didn't know that so did what did you what led you to

01:56:00 so did what did you what led you to believe that so far as the lateral fire spread is concerned Grenfell tower would behave normally

01:56:07 sorry so at that place yeah what led you to believe that so far as Grenfell tower was concerned it would behave normally so far when it came to natural fire spread you mean like so the but lateral fire

01:56:20 you mean like so the but lateral fire spread can't happen in some way - I'm aware that lateral fire spread can happen and given what you didn't know about the way in which ground floor tile is built

01:56:27 is built how could you assess whether Granville tower would promote lateral spread of fire I've got I don't know I don't go is it right that you in fact you just

01:56:38 it right that you in fact you just assumed that they wouldn't be lateral spread of fine okay you can say that yeah but I was dealing with a three flex

01:56:49 yeah but I was dealing with a three flex that were in a line you know one above the other so natural fires break didn't really come into my fault at that time you then go up to the seventh floor and

01:57:02 you then go up to the seventh floor and we see this from the first paragraph on page 14 of your statement you say again as I went up again the stairwell from the sixth and seventh floor the conditions were normal and clear first

01:57:18 conditions were normal and clear first of all your move from the sixth to the seventh floor was that under instructional was that off your end that it's off my own back okay second question did you tell anybody when you were leaving the sixth floor and going

01:57:29 were leaving the sixth floor and going to the seventh no so just to summarize your your trips it were fourth to fifth fifth to sixth nice way to put it six to seventh

01:57:38 seventh yeah you are you were really a sort of free-range free agent for you I'm sure there's a better way to explain it express it than that but yes no one was aware that I was doing what was doing other than the regular message

01:57:50 was doing other than the regular message that I sent down in your experience would it be normal to have an identity don't mean to be disrespectful describing you in that way but would it be normal to have a as it were a free

01:58:02 be normal to have a as it were a free operator with no be a no water going up through the tower without telling anybody where he is and without being under instruction to find out what was happening no why did what why were you

01:58:13 happening no why did what why were you in that position if maybe I don't know maybe is there probably a better phrase than that but once I sort this the fire

01:58:28 than that but once I sort this the fire on the fifth floor I obviously know I didn't have any equipment to deal with that at the time I fought an investigate further and found myself in investigate them a bit

01:58:42 found myself in investigate them a bit more August right and before leaving the 6th floor did you take any steps to satisfy yourself that and that ABA crew would come up and extinguish that fire

01:58:54 would come up and extinguish that fire or fight that fire Ivan Drago message that I said that this - there's a fire in a flat - close about the fire floor right now when you arrived on the 7th

01:59:10 right now when you arrived on the 7th floor you say the top of your statement page 14 the conditions were normal and clear there was no smoke at all and I can't remember seeing anyone on the stairs now we've got a photograph which

01:59:24 stairs now we've got a photograph which is a still he taken from the 7th floor lobby camera and it has a time limit which is useful because we can fix you at a time could you please be shown the

01:59:36 at a time could you please be shown the CCTV B camera 5 @ o1 2157 the reference to which is inq 5 zeros 1 for 8

01:59:57 now

02:00:00 this isn't a perfect means by which to ask you to identify yourself mr. bone but we've got the timestamp there

02:00:11 but we've got the timestamp there somebody to adjust them to the 120 157 taken from these 7th floor lobby CCTV camera given the timing

02:00:23 can you help identify yourself in that picture my torch looks like that and I'm not being sarcastic no torches that's

02:00:36 not being sarcastic no torches that's quite a new one it looks up mine other than that yeah skin tone maybe I don't know I would I would suggest it probably's me right but it's difficult

02:00:48 probably's me right but it's difficult to say obviously from that okay and looking at the conditions in the lobby there does that does that correspond with your recollection of the conditions in the lobby as you remember them on

02:00:59 in the lobby as you remember them on this is number seven or seven I fought it well to be honest I thought was a little bit smoky din that when I went in today floor seven to be honest to be

02:01:10 today floor seven to be honest to be fair to you won't come I mean it's not the perhaps in this perfect picture but if you thought it was a bit smokier than this picture shows us yeah it was like clear to me there and I was a bit smoky

02:01:23 clear to me there and I was a bit smoky doing it okay now that has you arriving on the seventh floor and oh one 21:57 does that tiny sound about right to you just to give you another time check

02:01:36 just to give you another time check you'd arrived on the at the incident at at midnight in 59 minutes he's 22 minutes later would that be about right yeah I mean it may be it was very hard to keep track at a time it

02:01:48 very hard to keep track at a time it seems like I was quite off I think was about 20 minutes off with my first 40 minutes of timing through my police statement so it would be difficult to to say right

02:02:05 you have decided to go to the seventh floor to Congress asking why you did decide to go up to the seventh floor because the free flats that were alive

02:02:17 because the free flats that were alive underneath obviously you had a feeling it may be there there's a problem above that right so would it be fair to say that you were chasing the fire upwards

02:02:28 that you were chasing the fire upwards inside the building well it obviously looked like that after yes how does it look to you at the time I just want to

02:02:41 look to you at the time I just want to say that it spread to the next floor up stars yeah maybe that's a phrase you could use

02:02:49 could use did you tell Mike Davin that you'd gone on to the seventh floor or anybody else indeed I write notes on the seventh

02:03:01 indeed I write notes on the seventh floor to say that there was a fire three floors above the fire floor now I believe it was

02:03:15 you then explaining the first paragraph on page 14 you say in the middle of a paragraph yeah there was a little bit of smoke in

02:03:27 yeah there was a little bit of smoke in the lobby at this time but you could still see everything and I could see their door and the their door is a reference to a family they were coming out of their tour saying something along

02:03:38 out of their tour saying something along the lines or that it was on fire could you just explain which flat you're talking about that directly above the original fire floor so it whatever number it wasn't there no no 636 maybe

02:03:52 number it wasn't there no no 636 maybe 46 okay

02:03:53 46 okay 46 yeah but I wouldn't have looked at any door numbers at the time or anything right so you're always going to look at the same flat on the same in the same location on the lobby floor yes that was

02:04:06 location on the lobby floor yes that was what I was doing right and you say a little bit lower down in the fire if I didn't go to their door due to the smoke

02:04:19 where was the smoke it was seen that flat if I remember rightly right and did they leave their door open or closed remember it was open when I I think I

02:04:33 remember it was open when I I think I approach the door if I remember right there no we're just out coming out as I was approaching the door okay so they were coming out they went past you you say you I should them down the stairs yeah did you then keep the door open and

02:04:45 yeah did you then keep the door open and look in or did you get into their flat as I say I I couldn't remember whether I closed the door properly or whoever I might have been left ajar slightly

02:05:05 did did you close their door after they had gone and you had looked in it last person to touch that door was me yes and

02:05:22 what's sort of smoke was it how thick was it what color was it you saw inside there flat it's hard to remember now but I think from I would suggest it was the same as to smoke all the other floors

02:05:34 same as to smoke all the other floors which were dark and what thoughts did you have about the spread of fire to this floor the seventh floor now well

02:05:45 this floor the seventh floor now well obviously I was concerned because I've only just it seemed as though run up the stairs in the next paragraph you say

02:06:01 after the family had gone down the first half flight of stairs and will always down the next half flight I said to them is there anyone else in there

02:06:14 did you what why did you wait until then to ask them that question I think I assured him I can't remember I asked him to the door to the stairs I never went

02:06:25 to the door to the stairs I never went back in to look in the flat or whether I'd I just remember him being down a half landing second time on the second half less a half landing did you get an

02:06:36 half less a half landing did you get an answer to your question I think statement but a lady stopped and started to come back towards towards me yes and you told me you told to keep going keep

02:06:47 you told me you told to keep going keep going down yes but did you did you get an answer to your question is there anybody left in the flat I didn't get an answer to it no but like she wasn't pulling at me or anything I had to say today's someone in there did you get

02:07:00 today's someone in there did you get back to the flat to check I didn't go in the flat to check it out someone in there now but as I say I may have gone back to the door of the flat or I've gone back upstairs did you alert anybody else on the second

02:07:12 did you alert anybody else on the second on the seventh floor now about the presence of fire in a flat on that floor yes sorry it's my fault

02:07:24 yes sorry it's my fault did you alert anybody else on the seventh floor any other occupant of the sell-out floor no okay is there any reason why you didn't didn't do that no there wasn't any reason evident that was

02:07:35 there wasn't any reason evident that was only other one compartment on that floor that was alive so say the question either Starsky gets the same answer for all the other floors below yes right but you did say minutes ago was that you

02:07:46 you did say minutes ago was that you alerted via the handheld radio and you do say in in your second paragraph on

02:07:57 do say in in your second paragraph on page 14 at the very end so I believe that I then radioed down again to the governor watch manager Dowden to tell him that

02:08:03 him that like three floors above the fire floor yeah and that is that that is that your clear recollection oh yeah there is no

02:08:14 clear recollection oh yeah there is no reason why I wouldn't have saw that flatter light and radio tell no absolutely I can understand why you say that but is that your clear recollection do you actually have a standing here

02:08:25 do you actually have a standing here today can you actually a year on but when I write this statement I'd say that yes I thought I said it and my notes I'm sure I said it yes well just to clear

02:08:40 sure I said it yes well just to clear something up if you go to your contemporaneous notes that we were looking at earlier your handwritten yes you said the bottom of page to the top of page three of those notes and that's

02:08:56 five three three eight you say after the reference to the family I told her to keep going down the stairs I am not too sure at what point i radioed who did you

02:09:07 sure at what point i radioed who did you gave the page the next page to watch manager Dowden that the flat two floors above the first floor was al it is that

02:09:18 above the first floor was al it is that when you say two floors above the five floor yeah well we're at now on the floor when our floor 7 so in fact that's that's three floors okay I have obviously in those notes mixed up the

02:09:30 obviously in those notes mixed up the occupants of the two floors but actually it's not in fact you get one in the mr. Jim we're quite right you spotted it no no it's my mistake if you go on so I

02:09:41 no it's my mistake if you go on so I went to floor 7 that way smoke in the corridor a bit and sought its spanish-speaking group face spoke broken English license they said their flat was on fire i radioed to wash manager Darden

02:09:53 on fire i radioed to wash manager Darden that the flat three floors above the fire floor was alight so does that confirm your recollection standard a day of your passing a message to watch

02:10:06 of your passing a message to watch manager down yes least so far as you thought you had exactly yes okay just it's obviously what I'm saying I'm what uh telling it's watching menu what's

02:10:18 uh telling it's watching menu what's money's doubting it's obviously to not necessarily directly straight to him but for everyone else as well yeah yes of course

02:10:25 course and in addition to radio in down did you try to pass a message on to make sure that be a where isn't water came up to

02:10:36 that be a where isn't water came up to that flat as well to attack the fire in it not you just limited it to telling doubt watch manager down but that flat was on fire yes okay

02:10:49 you then

02:10:55 and again can I assume that you didn't receive a reply that's correct or a confirmation of any kind no now just at

02:11:06 confirmation of any kind no now just at this point the fire has started in a flat on the fourth floor it's progressed up three levels from 4 to 5 5 to 6 and 6 to 7 at some speed

02:11:21 what was your did you have any thoughts about how this fire was was behaving at this point no opening it's going up from

02:11:33 this point no opening it's going up from each compartment very fast no in your experience how do you ever seen a fire spread up from flat to flat 2 flat no

02:11:45 spread up from flat to flat 2 flat no like that did you have any thoughts about what the strategy ug should be for alerting and evacuating occupants in

02:11:56 alerting and evacuating occupants in flats above the fire no do you know it's hard to know why but do you know why you didn't have any thoughts of that nature I was dealing with one situation at a

02:12:07 I was dealing with one situation at a time I think that's great that he then decide to go up to the 8th floor as you say in the next paragraph down the third paragraph on page 14

02:12:18 paragraph on page 14 I then went straight upstairs to the 8th floor again same question as before was that under instructional was that off your own bat I was off my own back could you describe the conditions that

02:12:29 could you describe the conditions that you found on the stairway on the way up he was clearing the way up in the stairs and in the third paragraph there on that page you say that the 8th floor lobby was heavily smoke logged do you see you say by this stage there was quite heavy

02:12:41 say by this stage there was quite heavy smoke in the lift lobby of that floor so I came straight out and went up to the next floor see that yes did you discover where the smoke on the in the 8th floor

02:12:53 where the smoke on the in the 8th floor lobby was coming from no did you did it occur to you to try to find out no did you radio down to say just got to

02:13:07 no did you radio down to say just got to the eighth floor smoke-filled here - I I don't think I did no could you give us some idea of what kind of speed for which you were climbing up the building and looking in I don't know it's

02:13:18 and looking in I don't know it's probably is it five seconds of floor maybe right well sorry only from the 8th to the 9th put it in five seconds Oh run others obviously taking time with the families in between yeah you say there was quite

02:13:32 in between yeah you say there was quite heavy smoke in the lift lobby of that floor so I came straight out when you say quite heavy smoke was his smoke that could be breathed without breathing apparatus or from trying to record it

02:13:43 apparatus or from trying to record it now no no you wouldn't well you wouldn't really want to be in that situation anyway but I from memory I've opened that door I didn't be able to sing the lift doors you wouldn't be

02:13:54 to sing the lift doors you wouldn't be able to see the lift door yeah Mitch were two to three meters away did you have any thoughts about whether to alert the occupants of the 8th floor to the fact that there was heavy smoke logging

02:14:06 fact that there was heavy smoke logging on their floor even if it was in a VA maybe but I didn't want to introduce the smoke into there right and did you make it I think you've

02:14:17 right and did you make it I think you've said I think you've answered this before just to say that I'm clay did you did you communicate with anybody now the bridge header on the fire ground outside that there was heavy smoke logging on the 8th I believe I didn't know thank

02:14:28 the 8th I believe I didn't know thank you don't say in the second line in the third paragraph on page 14 it began to dawn on me as I was going on and it was

02:14:39 dawn on me as I was going on and it was getting smoky that people were in danger from smoke inhalation and I just I was read you the whole paragraph because I think first of all he should be read into the record but secondly I've got a number of questions you say I think this

02:14:54 number of questions you say I think this began to start to start to sing in around the 8th floor as the lobby was so heavily smoke logged I didn't understand why the lift lobbies were getting smoky as I went up when the fire was down

02:15:05 as I went up when the fire was down fourth floor but I thought smake might be coming up the lift shaft I'm just pausing there you knew that they were

02:15:20 pausing there you knew that they were fires on the fifth sixth and seventh floors because you'd see yeah flats on fire we'll be told about flats on fire did that not explain to you why there was so much smoke logging

02:15:31 you why there was so much smoke logging on the eighth floor as I said it may have been through the lift shaft with summon across my mind you then go on to

02:15:47 summon across my mind you then go on to say at that point I thought we are not going to get enough people down to the tower to rescue everyone when you say to rescue everyone do you mean mass

02:16:00 rescue everyone do you mean mass evacuation of the whole block I think that statement when I wrote that may have been a little bit after floor 8 but

02:16:15 have been a little bit after floor 8 but not mass evacuation I've I had at that time I was thinking that obviously they'll be smoking to lift lobbies and do we need to get crews to knock on

02:16:26 do we need to get crews to knock on people's doors and take them out

02:16:30 I suppose what I'm really asking you mr. reedburn is when you say at that point I thought we're not going to get enough people down to the tower to rescue room was that a thought you had at that moment I think if I had a was a bit of a

02:16:42 moment I think if I had a was a bit of a sinking feeling on which I now know was between floors 11 and 12 that was probably the point when I realized that there were going to be people were dying

02:16:53 there were going to be people were dying in it right come to that but could current can I just be clear but at this point eighth floor your thoughts had turned

02:17:05 eighth floor your thoughts had turned that I don't think that my fault returned at that time to mass evacuation night right okay thank you

02:17:28 and just again so I'm clear what when do you remember your thoughts did turn first to the need for mass evacuation my

02:17:42 first to the need for mass evacuation my understanding of well I didn't think it's gonna be a mass evacuation I thought we need to get be a cruise to each individual flat and escort people out it's my it's what I thought and that

02:17:55 out it's my it's what I thought and that thought was at what stage what floors had you reach when you have that thought I think from reading the notes after and the floors I realized I've got to it was

02:18:06 the floors I realized I've got to it was between floors 11 and 12 okay well that'll cut we'll come to that as we go out of the building I think we we next

02:18:18 out of the building I think we we next go to the ninth floor and this is page 15 first paragraph you said Zen went up to the ninth floor I think I reached

02:18:30 to the ninth floor I think I reached this floor within two minutes of finding the smoke in the flat on the fifth floor

02:18:36 it is is that right do you think I it's best best guests time well I don't know that wouldn't if it is right it would mean that you had covered three further floors six seven and eight in two

02:18:48 floors six seven and eight in two minutes yeah I mean I I'm just trying to

02:18:59 minutes yeah I mean I I'm just trying to dismantle it now how long did I spend with two families and the rest it was quite quick so yeah it wouldn't be far off maybe no more than four minutes

02:19:12 off maybe no more than four minutes actually think anyway and again same question as before your decision to go up to the ninth floor is that under instruction or off your own no it wasn't under instruction off my back so you are very much the the the the free agent

02:19:25 very much the the the the free agent rising up through the tower of finding out what the conditions are is that is that a fair description of your role I prefer if you describe it a little bit different but that was what I was doing it so on how would you describe it I was

02:19:36 it so on how would you describe it I was trying to gather information right

02:19:45 and what were the conditions in the stairs on your way up from level 8 to level 9 like it was clear the stairs were clear did you encounter any occupants on the stairs I'm a fi I don't remember you know when

02:19:58 I'm a fi I don't remember you know when you come into the second line of page 15 you say when I opened the door from the stairwell to the ninth floor and went into the lobby I had a look around and there was absolutely no smoke at all on

02:20:10 there was absolutely no smoke at all on that floor I don't remember seeing any floor numbers in the stairwells but I could tell this was the ninth floor as it was brightly lit and I could see a big 9 on the wall between the lifts just

02:20:26 big 9 on the wall between the lifts just in terms of numbering you you had you could tell it was the ninth floor because of the nine between the lift so that's in the lift lobby was there a

02:20:38 that's in the lift lobby was there a numbering or number nine and the stairwell I don't remember seeing any numbers in the snowball at all no not at all I don't yeah from memory I didn't don't remember scene so howhow

02:20:50 I didn't don't remember scene so howhow are you counting with the floors as he went up two three four four fires above the fire floor right so you can't

02:21:01 above the fire floor right so you can't even your head rather than checking Chucky well I can I'd count it the free floors I know what floor was alight have you broke the door in I checked five so I counted as he say yeah but I was just rodeo and down saying two three

02:21:14 was just rodeo and down saying two three and four floors about the five four okay you says as you do that there was absolutely no smoke in the lift lobby on level nine did you look to see whether there was any smoke or fire in flat 66

02:21:27 there was any smoke or fire in flat 66 in other words that I'm at on level nine immediately above all the flats that you'd seen below which were alight I didn't approach the door no didn't is there a reason why why you didn't do

02:21:39 there a reason why why you didn't do that because I left him went up to the next floor looked after than that no there isn't a reason why I didn't check that floor and then you left and went to the next little bit but what prompted you not to look in the corresponding

02:21:51 you not to look in the corresponding flat on that floor and all the others below it had been a night at the time I was under the impression that the smoke may

02:21:57 may been coming from the lid shaft of the other floors on sister floor right should I say and hadn't the fire hadn't

02:22:09 should I say and hadn't the fire hadn't reached floor line is that game back to that lift shaft subject is there a reason why the smoke would be coming through the lift shaft when in you've

02:22:20 through the lift shaft when in you've seen fires in flats 16 26 36 46 I didn't yeah I didn't know that over the flat there was a fire on floor eight I

02:22:31 there was a fire on floor eight I presume that all the doors were closed and that my assumption at that time was that the smoke had come up the lit shaft on floor right okay what did you know

02:22:44 on floor right okay what did you know why you made that assumption well I have no idea I just don't was the first thing that comfortable come on

02:22:56 do you remember whether you radioed down to Mike Davin as to what you found on the ninth floor in the lobby there no I didn't you say you didn't you mean you didn't write down you didn't so I didn't

02:23:09 didn't write down you didn't so I didn't write down that the night floor is clear and then you then went up to the tenth floor and you say that in the second paragraph on page 15 I believe I then

02:23:20 paragraph on page 15 I believe I then went on to the tenth floor lobby but I came straight out again as it was heavily smoked logged there did you describe the smoke but you saw on the in the lobby on the tenth floor it's

02:23:32 the lobby on the tenth floor it's obviously difficult to remember that but all over in each door happened to be daughter smoke was very heavy so that would have been including floors 10 and 11

02:23:44 11 did you look to see where the smoke might have been coming from no it was you fart from memory when I opened the

02:23:56 you fart from memory when I opened the door it was thick smoke so I closed it against right away so there would be no way of telling where on what direction the smoke was coming from right did you think about knocking on any doors on that level

02:24:07 that level what floor 10 no and again was that I wouldn't been able to breathe if I went through that door indifferent and did

02:24:19 through that door indifferent and did you have any thoughts about why level 8 was smoke logged level 10 was heavily smoke logged as you've just described at level 9 was clear I yeah I after

02:24:33 level 9 was clear I yeah I after checking floor 11 and if you look on the floor 11 now no we still on 10 yeah the reason in was no I it was it was strange obviously that there was a gap right did

02:24:47 obviously that there was a gap right did you have any thoughts about why there was a gap I did when I went I put after I open the door to floor 11 right okay and you you do go there before before

02:24:58 and you you do go there before before you go that kind of does ask you did you did you radio down to Mike down conditions on in the lobby on floor 10 I didn't radio down about the conditions and then in your statement you say after

02:25:12 and then in your statement you say after I came out of the 10th floor I think I went up the stairs and I'm sorry this is second paragraph second line I think I went up the stairs to the half landing above the 10th level I'm not sure I may have stopped in the eleventh and twelfth

02:25:23 have stopped in the eleventh and twelfth laws I stopped to have a think about what to do I then realized that something wasn't quite right there and it wasn't a normal fire what was it a

02:25:39 it wasn't a normal fire what was it a level 11

02:25:40 level 11 the half landing below level 11 that made you stop because all nine was clear so obviously smoke wasn't covering up fruity lift Lobby or the left

02:25:51 fruity lift Lobby or the left yeah and you then say in the five lines down fullest and I realized then that

02:26:02 down fullest and I realized then that something wasn't quite right and it wasn't a normal fire I thought that there would be people who are going to die because of the amount of smoke and the lobbies but the different floors presumably due to more flats being a night I thought that we wouldn't be able

02:26:14 night I thought that we wouldn't be able to get enough fire engines and fire fighters up those stairs to get everyone out

02:26:17 out I've been doing my job for quite a while nearly 20 years and normally I feel I have an answer for anything for any problem but this didn't seem normal and I didn't know what to do

02:26:32 that must have covers quite a a moment to you yes did you think to share that

02:26:43 to you yes did you think to share that moment with anybody at that time no is there a reason why you didn't whilst I was trying to process the information is

02:26:56 was trying to process the information is we're now had the shell and what is it now that you'd seen in in total when you stop this moment between the 11th and

02:27:07 stop this moment between the 11th and the 12th floors that led you to think now what after 20 years this is something you've never seen before and the people were going to die because of

02:27:19 the people were going to die because of the amount of smoke in the lobbies as I say they now I believe after there was two more floors above floor knowing that had smoke in it I thought that they

02:27:32 had smoke in it I thought that they floor 10 and 11 were on fire right what did that mean to you so far as compartment ation that grenfell was concerned

02:27:46 it means that it was probably about six or seven or eight flutter flats alight now you know so if you're asking do I think they find at that time that didn't

02:27:57 think they find at that time that didn't cross my mind that it failed at that time but I just realized that there was enough flex on that right did you have any thoughts at that moment about whether a standing policy of advice to

02:28:09 whether a standing policy of advice to residents to stay put remain safe advice to give sorry did you have any thoughts at that time that moment about whether

02:28:22 at that time that moment about whether any standing advice to residents to stay put would continue to be sacrifice to give so be honest that wouldn't have crossed my mind at the time at that time I was just thinking about

02:28:34 at that time I was just thinking about how are we going to get VA cruising into these smokey lift lobbies to get the residents there flats that are not involved in the fire yeah and I've just

02:28:45 involved in the fire yeah and I've just gotten mr. chairman just a couple more questions and we can finish off this line at 4 o'clock offense if that's convenient

02:28:54 - just doing your best with the timing

02:28:58 where do you think you were when you have this this stop on the 11th between the 11th and the 12th floors and have these thoughts I ran up the stairs very

02:29:10 these thoughts I ran up the stairs very quickly so I'm not too sure if you've got a time stamp on floor 7 yes it's about 121 okay so I probably

02:29:21 yes it's about 121 okay so I probably ascended the building less than 2 minutes to get there I'm sure maybe even a minute

02:29:35 now in your last paragraph on page 15 you say I believe it was around this time when when I was somewhere between the 7th and 10th floors that I heard

02:29:48 the 7th and 10th floors that I heard watch manager Davin saying on the radio make pumps 8:00 to request eight fire engines to attend the incident now we have that time as at about 119 effects

02:30:01 have that time as at about 119 effects in the log over 91 1908 but that was that was where you were between the 7th and the 10th laws this is now to the 10th and 11th floors had you heard any

02:30:13 10th and 11th floors had you heard any further makeups since hearing pumps age no I didn't hear any above my cuts okay

02:30:28 mr. Chanin I think I've come to a natural end yes at this stage I have got a few more questions to ask probably another 45 minutes 45 minutes

02:30:39 probably another 45 minutes 45 minutes to an hour with this witness tomorrow morning if that's not inconvenient to to you and I'm sorry because I'm sure you were hoping to finish this afternoon yeah that's gonna cause you too much

02:30:51 yeah that's gonna cause you too much difficulty to come back tomorrow no you've heard what mr. millet said 45 minutes or an hour all right well then

02:31:02 minutes or an hour all right well then you better leave us now and I can I just mention one thing I should have this said this to you earlier now you've started giving your evidence can you please have not discuss your evidence or anything to do with it overnight yes

02:31:14 anything to do with it overnight yes okay thank you very much when you go with the usher and they'll start again at 10 o'clock in the morning thank you very much

02:31:36 thank you all very much ten o'clock tomorrow please thank you