Evidence from firefighters Michael Brown and David Badillo regarding their entry into Flat 16 at Grenfell Tower and discovery of external fire spread. Brown describes the unusual fire behavior, inability to extinguish external flames, and radio communication failures.
00:00:03 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to resume with mr. Brown in just a moment morning mr. chairman yes mr. brown please
00:00:53 good morning mr. Berlin you ready to continue sir just a minute morning mr. browning now on the night of the fire
00:01:01 the fire we have you entering the tower at zero 101 26 or so I'm not going to show you the CCTV cameras which pick that up and they will go into the record and I'll
00:01:14 they will go into the record and I'll just read the various shots we have into the record CCTV inq 5 0 is 1 1 4 & 5 0 is 1 1 5 & 1 1 6 so if people want to
00:01:28 is 1 1 5 & 1 1 6 so if people want to see CCTV of you coming into the tower at that time they can and I have a number of questions about arrival at the tower number 1 and is it the case that you needed a key fob to access the building
00:01:42 needed a key fob to access the building beyond the lobby do you remember that it's quite usual for a building for security reasons that they do have security doors that require a certain
00:01:54 security doors that require a certain key but we have an override key which is very similar to the file of keys just a case of putting the key in and it will open the doors do you remember a problem or delay in getting the a key in order
00:02:07 or delay in getting the a key in order to get access into the tower on the night of the fire on the evening I didn't deal with the door once I had got the equipment off the the appliance for engine and the door was open right so
00:02:21 engine and the door was open right so you don't remember a problem with getting access beyond the electronic security arrangements in the tower on the night no thank you and now in your
00:02:33 the night no thank you and now in your witness statement if you go to page 4 just to cite you on it and look at paragraph 2 you deal there with difficulties with the lift
00:02:51 you say Chris opera Lake operated the lift but nothing happened we waited about 30 seconds but it didn't come I think the lift stopped off with another floor before descending which meant of
00:03:02 floor before descending which meant of the fire lift function wasn't working Chris a secret of CM secret stated it wasn't working and you then go on to say
00:03:17 wasn't working and you then go on to say towards the bottom of that paragraph I believe the reason the fire lift failed that night was due to poor maintenance and first of all could you describe what happened when mister when Cree manager
00:03:29 happened when mister when Cree manager secret tried to summon the lid summon the lift so commenced a secret basically put the key in to operate a fire lift you will have a panel which actually
00:03:41 you will have a panel which actually says it would say other firefighters therefore fireman's lift once you put the key in and turn it's essentially a complete override of the of the lift and it should give us complete overall
00:03:55 it should give us complete overall control of that lift and that lift should descend immediately down to the ground floor and what happened it stopped off at a floor above the ground floor did it come to the ground floor yeah it did eventually could you
00:04:09 floor yeah it did eventually could you take it under control you the fire brigade not as a firefighters lift now not as a firefighter fireman's lift does that mean that the lift was not under your control at any time but could be used freely by the occupants of the
00:04:22 used freely by the occupants of the building could you paint the place yes did that mean that the lift could be used freely by the occupants of the building yes it does yes and is that is that in your experience an acceptable risk in a high-rise fire
00:04:35 an acceptable risk in a high-rise fire it's a very high risk in a high-rise fire could you explain why we don't want members of the public using a lift in a
00:04:46 members of the public using a lift in a fire situation because they can enter that lift and then something could happen to the power and that will just stop the lift car on any floor it decides whatever wherever it was descending able to stop and they won't
00:04:59 descending able to stop and they won't back it out and they're essentially trapped in that lift and it could I won't go into details right and you say if you believe the reason the file if
00:05:10 if you believe the reason the file if failed that night was due to poor maintenance is that opinion based on any evidence that you've seen about maintenance yes I think I touched upon
00:05:22 maintenance yes I think I touched upon it yesterday it's been noticeable over the last number of years a deterioration in the quality of the fire systems that
00:05:34 in the quality of the fire systems that are in place that we require when we turn up to an incident that could be a fire situation interrupt you mr. Brown I don't mean to be rude I just want to be Grenfell tower specific is your opinion
00:05:45 Grenfell tower specific is your opinion that the fire lift failed that night in Grenfell tower was due to poor maintenance of that lift is that based on any evidence it's not based on any
00:05:57 on any evidence it's not based on any evidence however my opinion it has come about because the actual condition of the tower is very well retire or looks very well looked after so I can't be Mason it to be down to any vandalism
00:06:08 Mason it to be down to any vandalism which could also happen else winds on the well so I put it down to perform maintenance now you I want to ask you
00:06:20 maintenance now you I want to ask you some questions about flat 16 if you go to paragraph 4 on page 6 of your statement
00:06:34 you say there that too close to the door
00:06:45 you say there that too close to the door the uncharged brunch together with the enforcer have been left on the floor ready for us to use I had to look through the letterbox of the flats and I could see smoke in the hallway and could just make out a room at the end of the hallway so visibility appeared pretty
00:06:57 hallway so visibility appeared pretty good can you explain to me what you saw in terms of smoke how dense was it first
00:07:10 in terms of smoke how dense was it first of all the fact that I could see once I'm looking for that letterbox I could see through and make out something a
00:07:22 see through and make out something a considerable distance with regards to where I'm standing within a flat tells me that it hasn't to me it feels like
00:07:34 me that it hasn't to me it feels like it's the fires developing but it's not fully developed and what color was the smoke I couldn't tell the color and he
00:07:45 smoke I couldn't tell the color and he then explained in the
00:07:52 next paragraph that the front door even the Charlie pulsed the front door to see how hot it was and there was no sign of any heat or blistering from the door what did that tell you yes again the
00:08:05 what did that tell you yes again the conditions within the flat at that point hadn't reached the thing with compartment fires is there's a real risk of back drafts and flash overs because
00:08:16 of back drafts and flash overs because essentially a compartment is a concrete box so the heat will stay within that box a lot easier than it would if it wasn't a compartment right so you have
00:08:29 wasn't a compartment right so you have to be extra careful at time with the compartment fires because when that door is open an awful lot of potentially an awful lot of unburned gases toxins are
00:08:44 awful lot of unburned gases toxins are released through that front door and because you're in a an area that is a high-rise where other people are living on that landing you really have to think
00:08:55 on that landing you really have to think about obviously their safety and the condition and their potentially their exit routes at the time should it be necessary now in the second last
00:09:07 necessary now in the second last paragraph you describe how you put the door in when you say there in the last sentence it took two hits for the door to open just in some it's on the screen
00:09:19 to open just in some it's on the screen if you wanted it or on your desk mr. Brannon on the screen there if you like it's it took two hits for the door to open but as soon as it did black smoke billowed out and I thought okay we've
00:09:31 billowed out and I thought okay we've got something now getting hold here the first question is so far as the smoke coming out was concerned was that different from the smoke that you'd seen inside the flat when you look through
00:09:42 inside the flat when you look through the letterbox it without doubt felt different yes Oh different what do you mean well when I look for the letterbox it's very hard to explain the fact that
00:09:54 it's very hard to explain the fact that I could see through to the living wall I think it's a living wall bedroom that's I could see to me it tells me that that area has not
00:10:06 to me it tells me that that area has not filled with smoke from combustion it's it's in the process of but once so I imagined that to be this very similar to
00:10:17 imagined that to be this very similar to the point of put in opening the door but once that door was open it was significantly different just thick then smoke that literally pumped out that
00:10:30 smoke that literally pumped out that couldn't they changed my opinion about what was now going it was a significant growing it was yes it's significant getting worse quite quickly getting worse quite quickly and
00:10:42 quickly getting worse quite quickly and what color was the smoke it was black black smoke like cement what was the as soon as you went into the compartment well let me just ask you this
00:10:52 this could you feel any heat at that point I thought as soon as the front door was open
00:10:55 open absolutely no no and what did that tell you about the fire it told me that I was actually at that stage nowhere near it
00:11:06 actually at that stage nowhere near it but equally a little bit confusing because there was an awful lot of smoke without that heat so again I'll connect over my experience generally when you
00:11:17 over my experience generally when you reach a point many have that much smoke you have a quite as significantly differ developed fire somewhere so that heat will be emitting toward you yes I see there was nothing okay okay
00:11:28 yes I see there was nothing okay okay and already I'm up what was going on here
00:11:32 here no no we you go into the flat and we have it on the thermal-imaging camera time 201 a seven and I'm not going to show you that at this stage all now move
00:11:46 show you that at this stage all now move further forward into the Thermage thermal-imaging camera can I just ask you before we do are you alright to look at thermal imaging cameras absolutely yes okay so we have it time to a 107 and
00:11:58 yes okay so we have it time to a 107 and at that stage is it right you're holding the branch and charlie is holding could you eat in what stage again as
00:12:09 could you eat in what stage again as what stage when you go into the flat fill Oh 107 and I'm holding the Thurman in his camera you're holding the thermal image Gil holding the thermal thermal and child is held in the brother he's holding the branch and then you could
00:12:25 holding the branch and then you could you tell us what happens next after you enter the flat so you immediately assessing for heat and there was none I was actually following Charlie so the
00:12:40 was actually following Charlie so the visibility for the naked eye wasn't very good it wasn't absolute zero but it wasn't good so you can make out things
00:12:51 wasn't good so you can make out things with the aid of the thermal image camera it was very easy to quit quickly making the way to the first room and just
00:13:02 the way to the first room and just moving ahead I'm going to use your statement for the time being if you go to page seven at the very bottom you describe what we're doing inside the flat and in the second last paragraph
00:13:16 flat and in the second last paragraph you say out the last room on the left was a bathroom which we checked and this was clear cetera and then they said that it's left us with the opposite door which was at the end of a corridor on the right opposite the bathroom door and
00:13:29 the right opposite the bathroom door and then this visibility had now gone down to absolute zero in the hallway and you couldn't read the scream of the TRC as this may be say thick and then you go on
00:13:42 this may be say thick and then you go on to say at the top of the next page no real increase in temperature just to be clear that's why he was still in the hall was it so he's doing the hallway yeah yeah absolutely
00:13:54 yeah yeah absolutely visibility had gone to absolute zero you could not see your hand in front of your face you just you could literally put it there on your mask and you still won't get to see but there was no hate you
00:14:05 get to see but there was no hate you then say I sigh then swapped with Charlie and took hold of a branch and he now had the tea I see and so that we're clear so the memory you go into the flat at the front door he's got the branch you've got the
00:14:17 he's got the branch you've got the thermal-imaging camera you go around the flat you get to the end of the hall and you swap and now you've got the branch and he's got the thermal-imaging camera base correct right and then and you
00:14:30 base correct right and then and you explain why you swap and then we get to the end there and you then say in the
00:14:41 the end there and you then say in the next paragraph once in our positions Charlie then cracked the door open as I poked my head inside I could see a forceful kerf and a flame on my left from 2 to 3 feet above the floor along with thick black smoke engulfing the
00:14:52 with thick black smoke engulfing the room I describe it as a curtain of flames as that is what the fire looked like a curtain there just to I'm clear is this the first entry into the kitchen so this is the first entry into the
00:15:05 so this is the first entry into the kitchen I have since seen thermal image camera image on YouTube following this inquiry there's a little bit before that
00:15:16 inquiry there's a little bit before that well let's look at it can we keep Elysee have the thermal imaging sequence starting at a 114 16 which is of wheat as we've timed it and
00:15:27 which is of wheat as we've timed it and I think mr. butabi has agreed the first door opening of a number of door openings into the kitchen so let's just run through that if there's a sequence
00:15:38 run through that if there's a sequence that's a little bit before that that is important will you tell us because I'm not sure we've got it here okay say mr. documents director if you could just run that and mr. Brown if you just tell us
00:15:49 that and mr. Brown if you just tell us what we can see I'm just pausing there you probably need to rewind it a bit right okay if you go to the very beginning of this sequence this is the very first opening of the door
00:16:01 very first opening of the door well I'm yes okay um that's what we think of you're here to confirm that
00:16:18 a mr. sorry it needs to be when this door shut right I'm not okay can we go back a sequence before that mr. documents directory if we can see the
00:16:29 documents directory if we can see the first opening of the door before that
00:16:38 no good well I think if you start at 12 start at 12 we'll see what it is that mr. Brown wants to show us mr. Brown at
00:16:51 mr. Brown wants to show us mr. Brown at this stage you've got the thermal-imaging camera correct and Charlie has the branch it looks like you're ahead of him in the corridor yeah
00:17:03 you're ahead of him in the corridor yeah I did say stop pulse I want to look down the hallway right let's do our best with what we've got okay this is anything you
00:17:15 what we've got okay this is anything you see you want to draw to our attention please please say what at the time was I would suppose there's no heat there's no sign of fire right I'm confused
00:17:26 sign of fire right I'm confused um I think at one point I almost thought mm I in the right flap okay so what are we seeing here what are we seeing here
00:17:38 we seeing here what are we seeing here now now could you just run back a bit mr. documents directors I think mr. Brown you need to concentrate on this
00:17:49 Brown you need to concentrate on this sequence perhaps tell us if there's anything significant here if he pulls it so when that door initially opened yes what you see on the thermal image camera
00:18:02 what you see on the thermal image camera is not what I can see with my eyes all I can see him like with my eye because I'm not holding up their names camera at this stage I'm at the front with the branch yes it's something in the corner that first opening something's in the
00:18:13 that first opening something's in the corner what was it the fire that's that's your guess you can just it's just a gut instinct there was no heat pushing at me because normally the heat gives
00:18:25 at me because normally the heat gives you a guide you which direction that fires in but there was none there was no heat in your statement at page 8 paragraph 2 you mentioned a curtain of flame which I've just read to you could
00:18:37 flame which I've just read to you could you just describe where it was so I think I need to explain when that door was first opened when I first first Polster ceiling to call it what it's
00:18:48 Polster ceiling to call it what it's although there was no hot gases but I could I assumed there was no hot gases because I could not feel heat right it's very hard to explain but it's so that it's still a good practice still
00:19:00 so that it's still a good practice still good practice to call the gases but it sounds mad but I'm saying there's no heat but there still could be guesses escaping when that door first opened
00:19:12 escaping when that door first opened there was something going in the corner my visibility is really almost zero but there's something so after pulse in the ceiling I've in pain the jet in their corner once the jet hit that flame
00:19:23 their corner once the jet hit that flame in the corner the curtain really availed itself on the window right but if we run the thermal-imaging camera just a little bit more perhaps we can see that could you help us through that mr. brown
00:19:39 so
00:19:50 so there's the hotspot on the left of the screen so and then it continues and then I think that's mr. batsman sailors
00:20:01 then I think that's mr. batsman sailors think that's you in front of him with the brunch that's correct and then what happens next just have a look as your helmet there's the hot spot
00:20:12 look as your helmet there's the hot spot now what happens now so uh what does just pausing there just just pausing there just what we've seen is that what
00:20:26 there just what we've seen is that what you remember seeing that is pretty much the image our head localized in that corner right very good now let's just see what happens next although sorry occurred suppose you when
00:20:38 although sorry occurred suppose you when I say image it just pick my own eyes yes not with the family our visual image is you'll now remember it yep yes exactly no just just see see what happens next
00:20:51 what's that so that is me pulsing the what I believe where the fire is let's me pulsing that fire okay and that will call the gas season call the knock the fire down and
00:21:03 season call the knock the fire down and then you can just see I think Charlie's armed bringing the door closed at that stage I told Charlie shut the door right so you didn't have long to see the
00:21:14 so you didn't have long to see the effect of the water on the heat in the room it to me it had no effect because what was happening is after I initially hit did that first hit on that corner that's when his curtain of flames
00:21:26 that's when his curtain of flames suddenly went woof it was suddenly there as I suddenly see a curtain of flame in I won't when you say curtain why do you say curtain what's the normally when you
00:21:38 curtain what's the normally when you have a fire inside a room it this fire was on this this curtain of flame was under force it was raging it was but it
00:21:50 under force it was raging it was but it wasn't looking round the ceiling it was going up and just neatly disappearing in a straight line right so under force from which direction from down up and down up and then
00:22:02 down up and down up and then disappearing this disappearing did you think at the time that it was inside the room or outside the room in a straight way safety defense mode shut
00:22:13 straight way safety defense mode shut the door which other there's then a second door opening it could we have a look at the thermal imaging camera sequence at oh one 1431 this is the
00:22:24 sequence at oh one 1431 this is the second opening according to mr. battle yesterday it starts there what do you think we could see there so the the fire in the flat that I initially attacked in that corner
00:22:35 that I initially attacked in that corner to me is out I distinguished the fire within the flat what you're seeing there is actually the window the window would you know itself up space where the window its is all what I could not be
00:22:47 window its is all what I could not be specific as much as that but that straight line is the window area right so to the best of your recollection at this moment it just just jumped on
00:23:01 this moment it just just jumped on actually I'm sorry we've jumped on can we just get back to zero one 14:31 there at this moment to the best of your recollection you say the fire and the
00:23:13 recollection you say the fire and the flat was out as far as yes absolutely so so that so the heat that we see on this thermal-imaging camera which of course Charlie was holding and you were remembering through your eyes where was
00:23:24 remembering through your eyes where was that
00:23:25 that all I could see with my eyes is are literally what I now know is the window I didn't know whose window at the time I see because you can't see based literally that area and then is this right and I'll put this to you at this
00:23:38 right and I'll put this to you at this stage you then take the brunt sorry he takes the branch and you take the thermal-imaging camera you swap correct so Charlie's got the branch and then there's a door opening the third on the
00:23:50 there's a door opening the third on the third of the third time can we look at the thermal imaging camera sequence starting at oh one 15 33
00:23:59 now is that you opening the door the third time is me opening the third time you it yes all because Charlie's got the branch what again can we see here I
00:24:13 branch what again can we see here I didn't see any of what was going on inside that room on the third opening all right um you say in your statement it's page nine paragraph two i said
00:24:26 it's page nine paragraph two i said something along the lines of let's just get in there and try and put this [ __ ] out - charlie i now crack the door open and Charlie passed the ceiling it that you don't say
00:24:38 passed the ceiling it that you don't say it's the third opening do you think that that might be the third opening of the fire or the other door or later if that was definitely the third opening definitely the third opening yes okay and and then you say I remember thinking
00:24:55 and and then you say I remember thinking that it can't be gasps as the flame of a forceful was orange in color and gas tends to burn the blue with a blue flame we then entered the room and Charlie opened the branch and said it's out and you sure that it was on the third
00:25:09 you sure that it was on the third opening or invited to be there was three openings the first two I was on the branch and then there was a delay because we tried to read pressure gauges I couldn't see a thing trying to see the tip couldn't see a
00:25:21 trying to see the tip couldn't see a thing trying to I'm trying to explain to him exactly what is happening because I what this is not normal there's no heat and there's a flame in
00:25:32 there's no heat and there's a flame in front of me that's raging and just in a really weird rectangular okay it was just everything was wrong about it to be
00:25:44 just everything was wrong about it to be a fire within a within it now the thermal imaging camera suggests that you actually was drew at that point didn't enter an into the compartment into the kitchen and then waited a few minutes
00:25:56 kitchen and then waited a few minutes and then went in a fourth time can we just run the secret I just want to see whether this prompter a clearer recollection mr. Bradley it's the sequence that starts at oh one 2046
00:26:15 so this to me is the third opening right okay but it's at a 120 46 seat you think that's the third that's the third opening there might have been a moment
00:26:27 opening there might have been a moment where the door might have slightly in become a jobless shut it again but there was two specific attacks that I did and in a third that check Charlie did okay just just pausing then let me ask you a
00:26:38 just just pausing then let me ask you a question do you remember there being a five or so minute between openings of the door there probably was because there was a lot of information that was I was trying to pass on to Charlie
00:26:50 I was trying to pass on to Charlie because we were going to swap roles a critical stage but I've I've attempted to tackle this fire twice and nothing's happening I wanted Charlie to focus on
00:27:03 happening I wanted Charlie to focus on the what do you trying to extinguish a fire you're very narrow tunnel visioned and I wanted Charlie to try and tackle that whilst trying to get my head in and have a look around or the rest of what
00:27:14 have a look around or the rest of what is going on here because this is just not normal and so there was that the conversation try to explain to Charlie what was happening trust your gauge check I'm aware that I'm a little bit
00:27:25 check I'm aware that I'm a little bit older so might we be using my air and quicker so by swapping over that was sewn able to sustain that room for longer we needed to be there because this this fire is not dealt with so what
00:27:36 this this fire is not dealt with so what felt like 30 seconds could well have been five minutes absolutely just costing your mind back and the subject matter of your discussions with Charlie better be it was what it was what you were confronted with it at that moment
00:27:47 were confronted with it at that moment something that you recognized from your experience or I have never seen anything like that before let's continue with this sequence
00:27:58 this sequence I just want to see if we can identify anything in the kitchen so this is Charlie's got the brunch
00:28:09 Charlie's got the brunch you've got the thermal-imaging camera is that right if this is the yes this is look this is this entering into the flat
00:28:21 look this is this entering into the flat stared yes into the kitchen yes the kitchen at it so my name is Cameron
00:28:55 and gets a bit more information rich I think from this point onwards so does let's just look out around comes the thermal-imaging camera half way it's an
00:29:08 thermal-imaging camera half way it's an angle still
00:29:30 and then if we could let's just move it on a second or two
00:29:50 there now that looks like can you tell me what you think you can see there
00:29:58 well now or at the time be using this to refresh your recollection okay at the time I couldn't see a thing all the image that you've got at this
00:30:09 all the image that you've got at this stage I could not see I could not see the screen it's a simple black that's not the smoke continue if you continue to run it perhaps a decidely faster speed mister documents director that would be good and that looks like hot material on the
00:30:25 and that looks like hot material on the floor yep I've every right absolutely I would quit I'm really asking you because you couldn't say anything I'm relieved is asking if your help to interpret this and then I'm moving on
00:30:40 we care to something it comes around I stop there yeah can you describe to me what the what we can see here now well then well on this thermal imaging can
00:30:52 then well on this thermal imaging can this thermal imaging camera I would say that something is breaking down above something is I like something is combusting and it's what can you see there
00:31:00 there what could I see then nothing you couldn't even see out to the flip the material flows stick back smoke you can't see how many funny face still and he could not see that thermal image
00:31:13 he could not see that thermal image camper screen on the thermal image camera which is to get it help and then continue the GIC just a little bit further
00:31:26 do you remember seeing hot material at the top left of the window at this stage no right and what do we think we can see on the thermal imaging campaign it's like some form of combustion so maybe
00:31:37 like some form of combustion so maybe it's very difficult in a film image camera because it just shows heat just Joseon do you don't remember any classroom at the time education absolutely not if you go to page 10 of your witness
00:31:49 if you go to page 10 of your witness statement please paragraph 3 you say the room continued to clear really fast
00:32:02 the room continued to clear really fast is that point in time after you'd made entry into the kitchen and and put the fire out inside the kitchen that's correct yeah at the time I wasn't sure
00:32:16 correct yeah at the time I wasn't sure because I really couldn't see and I just remember pet panning across the kitchen trying to see something can't see anything I do remember Nina cross to my left
00:32:24 left because I think I'd sense that's where what I was it's very disorientating a fire situation but a sense that's where the fire was you can see me looking at the window I still can't see anything I can't see with my eye I can't see with
00:32:35 can't see with my eye I can't see with the throw image camera I think I pen from memory I think a pen across the unit's across the top still can't see them and I think this give up you then say in your statement as I was looking
00:32:47 say in your statement as I was looking around at visibility increased I became confused as the location of the fridge was not where I saw the forceful curtain of flame it was more to the right just just to be clear what was more to the
00:33:01 just to be clear what was more to the right so that would be so myself about there so I think Charlie had at that point caught the branch at the window
00:33:12 point caught the branch at the window and opened it up to it and we use the venture wooden support it is where it draws out by opening the art big will draw out the smoke quicker in a room
00:33:23 draw out the smoke quicker in a room I didn't realize Charlie was doing at that first cup couldn't see but quite quickly
00:33:31 quickly visibility did increase and I remember with my eyes starting to see the the unit though there was on the sides and I think the thing ups disappeared rebels
00:33:42 think the thing ups disappeared rebels the kettle I thought and I started looking eyes thinking boy okay nothing is forgetting paralyzation here there's no there's no heat damage what is going on you know I don't understand
00:33:54 is going on you know I don't understand this I don't think I'm still mindful moments ago there's a raging curtain of flame what is in here you know everything is ringing alarm bell something's not right and I
00:34:07 alarm bell something's not right and I think as for memory as the smoke cleared more and more I began to look to walls more to the fridge and I looked blackened they look like okay and it's
00:34:21 blackened they look like okay and it's it felt as if it was in the location of where I initially hit on the first attack right so okay so the forceful
00:34:34 attack right so okay so the forceful curtain of flame was where in relation to the fridge the you say so the fridge was to the right of where that I thought I saw the
00:34:45 right of where that I thought I saw the forcible kernels like they're definitely more over to the right okay so the it in the sentence it was more to the right is the fridge correct got it yeah then you say I noticed a single candle like flame
00:34:57 say I noticed a single candle like flame just flickering and dancing in the corner of the room at the top of the wall by the ceiling above the window opening the flame was orange in color
00:35:07 whereabouts doing the best you can exactly at the top of the wall by the ceiling above the window evening was this flame you described I can tell you exactly once you've got it on a thermal
00:35:19 exactly once you've got it on a thermal image camera can we okay all right and that's good to know which which sequence the one we've just been looking at yes the one way you pan across to try and see through right yeah it's happening
00:35:30 see through right yeah it's happening good said let's present the room so if we can just get back mister a documents director 221 get back get back a little bit you can reverse gonna start from there and go slowly and mr. brown would
00:35:43 there and go slowly and mr. brown would you pick up what you see and tell us when you come to the the the candle light flame and you're describing your statement
00:35:58 as far as I can sell a car sitting in this room at this stage
00:36:16 so if he pulls their paws that right so where you see on the top left it was a tiny I could see if my eyes went to room clear was a tiny candle like flame it's
00:36:28 clear was a tiny candle like flame it's literally the size of a what you'd get off of a candle rise just sitting in the corner just don't see in the court I'm sorry to press you in a sort of way so it's between the wall to the left and
00:36:41 it's between the wall to the left and the window wall and it was up in that corner I don't want to go and start physically pointing at the image but if you if we could do this verbally like it
00:36:53 you if we could do this verbally like it whereabouts in relation to the angle of the top of the window and the the left jamb of the window if you look at where it says one one one right and see there
00:37:05 it says one one one right and see there yes that that was where this candle flame was yep was it inside the flat - you thought that was inside the flat inside that and then you say in your
00:37:17 inside that and then you say in your statement it was Orange and I thought this was really weird so I pulsed it with the branch and put it out I look more closely where this flame had
00:37:28 I look more closely where this flame had been and Casino sign of charring whispering and bubbling etc and what did that tell you again it's just all this
00:37:40 that tell you again it's just all this is happening really quickly trying to process all this information it was telling me none of this is making sense because why is there a little dancing
00:37:52 because why is there a little dancing bit of candle light flame sitting there in the first place how did it get there there's and I'm aware that I'm in a compartment I mean look a concrete box effectively
00:38:04 look a concrete box effectively but there's this no evidence of any fire travel or there's just no evidence of anything for why that would be there did
00:38:16 anything for why that would be there did it snow trying just ask you but I don't have put a thought into your head but did it look like a burning object that arrived from somewhere else at the time
00:38:29 arrived from somewhere else at the time I had absolutely no idea what it was but later on in my statement I have a theory but it's not an educated one Baker now mr. bat abhi told us yesterday that you
00:38:43 mr. bat abhi told us yesterday that you then swapped well you I think you had the branch of this stage and to say you'd swap back so he had the thermal-imaging camera now you had the branch because as you said you put out the little flame I'm sorry could you repay that yeah so you it was you who
00:38:54 repay that yeah so you it was you who put out the little candle light flame at the top correct so you had swapped with Charlie better be you now had the branch he had the thermal-imaging camera yes I don't know if he had to throw need to go but I now had the bran right and in the
00:39:08 but I now had the bran right and in the images we've just seen you can see material falling down outside the window space do you remember seeing that at that point at that point no I wasn't look there's nothing for
00:39:19 no I wasn't look there's nothing for another window now he describes how you got onto a counter by the window just below the window and he held on to you by your PA straps and dug his hip in
00:39:31 by your PA straps and dug his hip in while you lent as far out of the windows you could with the branch do you remember that I have my version of it to ask you what is this about um could you
00:39:43 ask you what is this about um could you tell us what you remember about what what I remember the situation is because I've seen that orange counter like flame I'm not happy something is not dealt with something is not finished in this room what is going on and that's why I
00:39:55 room what is going on and that's why I followed the across the window line looking for something some reason some explanation of why is that there there's there's no heat in the room it's hardly no damage in the room it's
00:40:08 it's hardly no damage in the room it's just the father's what we a little bit of a fridge or the area and as I'm looking to alter the fridge thinking okay this maybe there's an explanation his corner at that point and
00:40:19 explanation his corner at that point and it's just this orange ember fall outside the window I went to investigate what that orange amber was and I realized the fire had jumped or the fire was outside and both those columns were like okay
00:40:39 and both those columns were like okay can I ask you to look at your contemporaneous notes yet please which you'll find in the bundle in front of you are in tab 3b as Exhibit D RB 1
00:41:02 can I have page three of that document on the screen please without at the top of that page you say I noticed a small
00:41:13 of that page you say I noticed a small flame to the top left-hand corner of what I now know was the window wall at ceiling and you describe what you've disturbed just told us here today mr. Brown you then go on to say after the
00:41:25 Brown you then go on to say after the reference in the middle of the paragraph to the window having given completely given way leaving a hole in the wall you say below this window do you see that was a box sturdy enough to hold my
00:41:37 was a box sturdy enough to hold my weight and not involved in the fire this box was about two feet in height and knelt upon it and looked outside it was now allowed outside now I just want to ask you about this box could you
00:41:49 want to ask you about this box could you describe it for us visually no not at all my attention was not what was that my attention was more focused on what is
00:42:00 my attention was more focused on what is going on up there what okay I need an explanation for what that is right how wide was the box again I couldn't tell you all I know is it was about probably the height of money now I have your need
00:42:15 the height of money now I have your need right so about 18 inches above the floor okay do you remember what it might have been made of again I have no idea I just gave it as bunk with my knee I'm sure
00:42:28 gave it as bunk with my knee I'm sure it'll take my way and then I just jumped on how far away from the window was it it was right right against the wall
00:42:37 below the window and what if I can ask to show you just a bit a document to see if I can prompt a
00:42:49 bit a document to see if I can prompt a better recollection if you could please be shown the documents in tab 38 the master document bundle which are a couple of photographs M eet quadruple
00:43:00 couple of photographs M eet quadruple zero seven seven four eight is the document directory now if you go to the
00:43:11 document directory now if you go to the second page of that these are appendix photographs but there's part of the bureau veritas report which is part of the fire scene investigation done at the end of last year at Grenville tower I
00:43:22 end of last year at Grenville tower I just like to show you the second of the photographs photograph four in number on that second page thank you now this is a photograph of the kitchen of flat 16 after the fire and so you
00:43:39 of flat 16 after the fire and so you know the theory is that there was a second father re-entered the flat later but in terms of the objects in the kitchen looking at those objects do you think that there's anything there that
00:43:50 think that there's anything there that would would be the remains of something you say you knelt on absolutely yes it would be that smaller fridge in the foreground in the middle smaller frigid
00:44:01 foreground in the middle smaller frigid or smaller box right and to the best of your recollection where was that located when you knelt upon it to put the fire that was against the wall right below
00:44:12 that was against the wall right below the window was it on the ground or was it on something else it would have been on the ground yeah okay and when you climbed upon it you had the
00:44:25 when you climbed upon it you had the brand according to Charlie battery you had the branch and he had to hold you and he leant out of the window that's what he told us yesterday I initially leant out I'm gonna be a set so this is
00:44:37 leant out I'm gonna be a set so this is quite tricky things to do I could see both columns were like both of them were a lie and I needed to attack them both there the one on the left was
00:44:49 there the one on the left was approximately five foot away from me the one that was a lot closer I taped them both I'm having no effect what was just bouncing off it's just literally
00:45:01 bouncing off it's just literally bouncing off and I'm thinking okay we've got a problem here I can't put this out it literally got water hitting metal is it I've described it in my statement it
00:45:12 it I've described it in my statement it is as if you this is if you wrap a load of paper up pull it in the back seat of the car set it alight make sure all the doors are shut all the windows are shut lock it and then say to me now put that
00:45:24 lock it and then say to me now put that out you're not allowed to break it break the door you know to open the window and like to use a key all you've got is your jet now put it out and all you're doing is essentially washing the car and that
00:45:35 is essentially washing the car and that was a situation I faced right there and then um this I cannot put this out no matter what I tried I tried knocking the panels off try getting between perhaps
00:45:46 panels off try getting between perhaps what they were gets I don't have their gaps or not it's just black areas about everything nothing is happening it's okay
00:45:52 okay could you get back please to your contemporaneous statement same paragraph that we were looking at before top of page three and this is
00:46:04 page three and this is yes thank you very much and if you look it's on the screen there mr. Brown if you look about it you see after the reference to the box you say I knelt upon it and looked outside
00:46:15 upon it and looked outside it was now a light outside I shouted to crew manager batter me it better be to inform watch manager doubtin via his comms that the building was alight
00:46:26 comms that the building was alight directly outside at our location as he was transmitting this I attempted to extinguish this external fire I was having no effect at all do you remember whether crew managed about to be did
00:46:40 whether crew managed about to be did inform watch manager davon that the building was alight directly outside I don't I can't actually say if he did or didn't but knowing Charlie absolutely he would have I was task focused I said do
00:46:54 would have I was task focused I said do you have a recollection of what he did I couldn't see what he did I think at some point now I know he held on to me I could fill in grab my groove nephritis waist belt he could have been doing this
00:47:11 waist belt he could have been doing this trying to hold on to me trying to do the comms shock you know trying to look around make sure other things so I didn't really in that situation he told us yesterday that he was holding on to you with his hips dug into the the I
00:47:23 you with his hips dug into the the I think the counter with one hand on your webbing and another on his radio would it have been possible for him to make a radio call whilst doing that yes it would have been yes yes given your
00:47:34 would have been yes yes given your experience what did what you could see tell you regarding whether compartment ation it grenfell tower have failed so I can repeat the question of given what
00:47:45 can repeat the question of given what you could see happening on the exterior at that moment what did that tell you compartment a she had felt and what would that what did that mean to you at the time in terms of fire spread fast
00:47:56 the time in terms of fire spread fast bread
00:48:03 that's a very difficult question and we've known the outcome put yourself firmly in the flat on the night at the time what did you think then the
00:48:19 time what did you think then the thoughts were this needs to be got now we need to extinguish there in a distinguish this I couldn't foresee that
00:48:33 distinguish this I couldn't foresee that it was gonna travel all the way to the top of the building I don't think anyone could see that I mean you'd like to think there was some sort of fire breaks or some sort of system where would Richard point he stopped was that your
00:48:44 Richard point he stopped was that your thought at the time it yes well we get some known it is but it's not what I'm focusing on no I understand if that
00:48:55 focusing on no I understand if that makes sense now
00:49:18 just give me one moment
00:49:22 yes in the next but one paragraph in your contemporaneous notes you describe the firefighting that you did I think from the from your perch in the window
00:49:36 from the from your perch in the window space did you say that in the second line the fire was traveling in an upwards direction behind the cladding can I just ask you what you mean by that
00:49:47 can I just ask you what you mean by that behind the cladding could you see behind the cladding what although that's a hindsight wording I didn't know it was cladding at the time but basically I'm seeing what looks like sheets of metal and the fire is it's so so really it's
00:50:01 and the fire is it's so so really it's just really weird you can see it's a light underneath but you'd have these areas of animation the the joints and every now and again you'll see a flame
00:50:13 every now and again you'll see a flame and then disappeared and you see a flaming will just disappear they said my height I could not see what was going above because I'm quite restricted with
00:50:26 above because I'm quite restricted with my Bayes net Cuesta's so yeah and then the next sentence you say as some pieces of the cladding and either wind or fallen off it was easy to see the
00:50:37 fallen off it was easy to see the material behind it was alight and traveling in an upwards direction yes so on the right hand side a bit further I just forgot I because I just asked the question first time you say some pieces of the cladding that either warped or
00:50:49 of the cladding that either warped or fallen off when you say the word used the word cladding there what do you mean well again I didn't know the word it was cladding at the time and so I'm using that post benefit for an explanation so
00:51:02 that post benefit for an explanation so what had you seen that had either warped or fallen off parts of this these that stays on the top right-hand side there
00:51:14 stays on the top right-hand side there was an area yes and it was it was like it was split open it was very odd it was like something was punch it punch you had post
00:51:23 had post it was I suppose if you had if you held a bit of foil paper up tight and he pushed your hand through it you'd have a
00:51:34 pushed your hand through it you'd have a opening and that's what it looked like about about two or three foot up above from where I was a leaning out right and
00:51:45 from where I was a leaning out right and was that flat on the building to where you were leaning out so you had to look behind or up so that was orientation that was on the column on the column on the column itself yep and when you say
00:51:58 the column itself yep and when you say something had punched out what could you see behind the hole was there a hole if that was definitely a hole because there was a piece of the the what I now know is cladding that material it was a bit
00:52:13 is cladding that material it was a bit open because if you couldn't see my angle I'm set back and this column is so much far forward and so I'm desperately trying to lean out and get the branch in there right to try and have some effect
00:52:25 there right to try and have some effect because I'm thinking that's open let's get back and get some water in there cause it's not working any other way okay and so you then say it was easy to see the material behind it was a light
00:52:36 see the material behind it was a light what material was that I thought what I mean by that is is that there was a noticeable bigger flame that's right behind that thing and you say and
00:52:48 behind that thing and you say and traveling in an upwards direction yeah what was traveling in an up this rain was lame flames are definitely traveling up
00:53:12 and how do you ever seen anything like that before and you're experienced
00:53:32 mr. Berman you just give me one moment please
00:53:45 mr. brony are you still comfortable giving evidence absolutely well if you do need a break at any stage will you just signal and they're thinking thank you could you look at your witness
00:53:58 you could you look at your witness statement at page 20 please
00:54:08 and I'd ask you to look at paragraph four fourth paragraph
00:54:20 on that page and you're talking here this is much later I think in the in the night about you and firefighter Badillo
00:54:33 night about you and firefighter Badillo doing runs between the walkways the tower exit and back protecting crews and then also you go on to say in the third line take task of taking messages
00:54:44 line take task of taking messages between the two different water managers and then you say this these were all verbal messages you see and I was tasked with these because the radios were not
00:54:55 with these because the radios were not working and some communication was not taking place between crews inside and outside of the tower and sort of break that down just a little bit you say the radios we're not working which rate is
00:55:07 radios we're not working which rate is are you referring to very in the statement at the head helps the handheld's what what about that wasn't working
00:55:16 working they just weren't be able to communicate so you whoever was inside the tower could not communicate with who was outside the tower who's outside the tower could not communicate was inside
00:55:27 tower could not communicate was inside the tower using the radios and was that at a specific point in the night or was that at your eye general experience of the night I can only comment on my experiences and it
00:55:39 only comment on my experiences and it wasn't the first I had an earlier one having come out of the tower of following flat 16 so put me an issue
00:55:50 following flat 16 so put me an issue throughout the night you had a fire ground radio did you I did yes then that was some on channel one was gentle one and do you know did you did you know at
00:56:01 and do you know did you did you know at the time why your radio wasn't working I had no idea worth to be honest I have a
00:56:12 had no idea worth to be honest I have a suspicion but it's not fact well let's not asked about that and you say some communication was not taking place between crews inside and outside of the tower you say some communication
00:56:25 of the tower you say some communication does that mean that there was communication but it was patchy or at times there was good communication could you just explain what you mean that so I could be printed but yes you said you
00:56:36 could be printed but yes you said you say the sentence which starts but if these were all verbal messages and I was tasked with these because the radios were not working and some communication was not taking place between the crews
00:56:47 was not taking place between the crews inside and outside of the tower when you say some communication was not taking place
00:56:53 place I want you to clarify please do you mean that some communication was taking place like canonical again I can only comment on my experience of what I was witnessing and and what I was tasked to
00:57:06 witnessing and and what I was tasked to do and the reasons for doing those tasks was because communications between those on the ground floor and those outside or unable to communicate with each other right and listen I just did
00:57:18 each other right and listen I just did you have occasion to use your fire ground radio to communicate with anyone else outside the tower when you were also outside the time I tried having
00:57:31 also outside the time I tried having just left flat 16 initially I was in a situation fighting the fire externally and after some time I moved further
00:57:43 and after some time I moved further north and I realized that how the state of the north side of the tower was and I
00:57:54 of the north side of the tower was and I did try again to communicate with my own watch manager at the time twice so alone you were both outside the tower at that point we I was I did not know the location of what we need to be looking
00:58:05 location of what we need to be looking at that stage and I tried twice to inform him it's going on the North Tower or the north side of the tower you see what I would be interested to know is whether the communication
00:58:16 know is whether the communication problems with the radios were essentially between those inside and those outside and whether they were more general you may not know I don't know
00:58:28 general you may not know I don't know the absolute answer I don't know but you generally don't have problems communicating if you're outside just one
00:58:40 communicating if you're outside just one or two more questions mr. mr. Brown did you have any occasion to use your fire ground radio to communicate with the bridgehead no did you try - no okay what about with
00:58:54 no did you try - no okay what about with the command unit or units no or the original incident command pound no mr. Bell I've got I think further for you and can I say I'm very grateful to you
00:59:06 and can I say I'm very grateful to you for coming to the inquiry and helping helping us understand your evidence thank you Thank You mr. president again I'd like also to thank you your evidence
00:59:17 I'd like also to thank you your evidence would be very helpful I hope it hasn't been too difficult for you you seem to cope very well thank you very much and we're very grateful to you thank you thank you very much thank you all right would you like to go
00:59:37 mr. Manson we've got we I think we have a system for this that way the the no no but if you if you are he can certainly wait from it but if you want a question
00:59:49 wait from it but if you want a question can you put it in writing and give it to mr. Miller please no wait we'll wait for you to do it we'll wait for you to do it alright sorry mr. browning have to wait
01:00:00 alright sorry mr. browning have to wait a bit
01:00:07 well mr. Milich do you want to know what you want into us
01:00:51 yes all right give it sorry mr. chairman mr. Brown would you but he excuse me for a moment have you
01:01:05 but he excuse me for a moment have you standing up absolutely
01:01:11 um mr. Brown I've got a question which I hope I can make comprehensible to you you said in your evidence that it was noticeable over a number of years that a deterioration in the fast systems that
01:01:23 deterioration in the fast systems that are in place that you require when you turn up to an incident there could be a fast situation and I stopped you and I wanted you to be Grenville's specific and my question is whether or not in
01:01:36 and my question is whether or not in your visits to grenfell tower that you did before the fire in other words your 72d visits you did from north kensington
01:01:47 72d visits you did from north kensington before the ground fell tower in June 2017 you personally ever noticed a deterioration in the building in terms of a fire protection system specific to
01:01:58 of a fire protection system specific to grenfell tower so specific to Granville tower are you how far back are you going I've done let's take is the period from 2012 the noticeable difference would
01:02:15 2012 the noticeable difference would probably go back beyond that so from the years from the years until around the year 2000 early 2000s it's basically
01:02:27 year 2000 early 2000s it's basically when we were fire safety in forces then since we've that's been removed from us there's been a notable change over time
01:02:40 things that we want in place and things we weren't working like fire lifts by emergency lighting like fire doors making sure they shot properly that
01:02:51 making sure they shot properly that that's not always the case now we're always used to because we used to make sure that is the case in the period between 2012 and 2006 Evan teen mr.
01:03:03 between 2012 and 2006 Evan teen mr. Brown was there and ever any other occasion that you had to raise with anybody any specific aspect of fire safety at Grenfell tower which was in
01:03:17 safety at Grenfell tower which was in your view unsafe I have not seen anything now thank you very much no further questions why well mr. Brown you have not finished
01:03:28 why well mr. Brown you have not finished thank you very much for coming give your evidence you go with the Ashworth they look after you thank you very much thank you very much I was going to suggest
01:03:42 you very much I was going to suggest that we have a 10-minute break resume course 211 on please thank you
01:03:56 [Music]
01:20:24 yes mr. millet mr. Chanin I now call mr. David ill oh there's the next witness
01:21:09 I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give shall be true
01:21:21 shall give shall be true it shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much good morning mr. dillert
01:21:30 dillert morning mr. minutes going to ask you a few questions in a minute but I want to make it clear that if at any stage you feel you need a break just tell me and we'll have a break suit you right
01:21:43 good morning mr. Patel oh come on could you please give the chairman your full name yep it's david kent video and can i just ask you a personal question is how
01:21:54 just ask you a personal question is how do you pronounce your surname video video yes right okay that's solved that thank you um first can I thank you very much for coming to the inquiry to give
01:22:08 much for coming to the inquiry to give your evidence today it is very much appreciated and you will be assisting us very greatly in our investigations just by coming my questions are intended to be short and simple but if you have any
01:22:20 be short and simple but if you have any difficulty understanding my questions or you want me to repeat them then please do say and it equally if you want me to put it in a different way please just say and I will and as the
01:22:32 please just say and I will and as the chairman has said if you want to break at any time then just just asking we can do that but get it aim I think to have a break every 30 minutes or so just to give you a breather okay right
01:22:43 give you a breather okay right can I ask you first of all to look at there should be a file in front of you which contains your witness statement if you just take that blue file and if you
01:22:55 you just take that blue file and if you turn to tab 4 there should be your witness statement there which is met M et triple-zero 108 6 7 those are the relativity
01:23:07 108 6 7 those are the relativity references and it should be dated the 29th of January 2018 have you read your statement recently yes you have can you
01:23:20 statement recently yes you have can you confirm that its contents are true yes and have you discussed your statement or your evidence with anybody before coming here today by that do you mean my
01:23:35 here today by that do you mean my witness statement or what I did on the night well first of all your witness statement have you discussed the contents of your witness statement with anybody before coming here today to give evidence no okay have you discussed the
01:23:50 evidence no okay have you discussed the evidence that you're going to give to the inquiry today with anybody before coming over I've discussed what I did on the night with people yes my family family if the girl we're gonna talk
01:24:03 family if the girl we're gonna talk about who else have you save apart from your family who else have you discussed the evidence that you're going to give another family Jessica's family see anybody else No thank you very much now
01:24:19 anybody else No thank you very much now in terms of I want to start if I can with your position and your training you say in your statement that you served in the London Fire Brigade for over 19 years is that right yes so you joined in
01:24:33 years is that right yes so you joined in 1998-1999 is that right June 1998 it's now 20 years can I just say you can pull the microphone closer to you if you'd find that what could be
01:24:45 to you if you'd find that what could be yes and excuse me and - have you been an active firefighter since then yes and how long have you been in north
01:24:57 how long have you been in north kensington fire station 18 years 18 years and were you always during that time are at wet rat red watch yes what was your position on in terms of your
01:25:10 was your position on in terms of your rank on the 13th 14th of June 2017 firefighter firefighter if you go to your statement and look at page 1 please mr. Battier you'll see at the
01:25:25 please mr. Battier you'll see at the bottom
01:25:29 that you talk about your training and you say that your ongoing training involves drills in the yard and PowerPoint presentations do you see that
01:25:42 PowerPoint presentations do you see that yes lines down when I go to your statement mr. Padilla what I'm going to do is to put it up on a screen it's here at the back of the room and also also on the screen in front of you you may be more convenient for you to look at it on
01:25:53 more convenient for you to look at it on the screen or in your written statement it doesn't matter ok ok let's say if you look at the third line of that paragraph it says our ongoing training includes
01:26:05 it says our ongoing training includes drills in the yard and PowerPoint presentations it's not to ask you a little bit about that does two drills in the yard and PowerPoint presentations
01:26:17 the yard and PowerPoint presentations specifically include high-rise training PowerPoint training PowerPoint presentations doe yes right but not not physical drills the stuff in the yard is
01:26:31 physical drills the stuff in the yard is more to do with ladder drills and pumping from the machine ok what does a high-rise physical drill involve you say
01:26:43 high-rise physical drill involve you say pumping and ladder drills and anything else we do lots of different drills in the yard we do stuff for our TAS we do
01:26:54 lots of different training for all sorts of incidents how often do you practice high-rise drills or did you practice high-rise drills before June 2017 can
01:27:12 high-rise drills before June 2017 can put a number on it but I wouldn't say more than once a year not more than once a year
01:27:19 a year not for not drills no ok and where did you do those drills high-rise drills we're talking about we did it back to
01:27:31 we're talking about we did it back to basics in Hammersmith
01:27:38 we also on the PowerPoint training is where we discuss on arrival tactics and so forth right and the back to basics
01:27:52 so forth right and the back to basics course you did do you remember when you did that I believe it was 2016 and do you remember whether on the back-to-basics course you did anything about fire spread on the
01:28:06 did anything about fire spread on the exterior of high-rise buildings no we did not
01:28:09 did not you didn't did you learn anything on the back to basics course about breach of compartment ation in a high-rise
01:28:20 compartment ation in a high-rise residential block no did you do anything on the back to basics about how to conduct a phased or total evacuation of a high-rise block on the back-to-basics
01:28:31 a high-rise block on the back-to-basics course
01:28:32 course no okay going back to high-rise training does your training on high rise cover the stay-put policy if I can put it
01:28:44 the stay-put policy if I can put it generally we know of the staple policy with not training on it I wouldn't say
01:28:55 with not training on it I wouldn't say we we're familiar with it right
01:29:00 can you explain to us what your understanding of the stay-put policy is or at least was before Greenville tower it's a it's when a family or someone in
01:29:15 it's a it's when a family or someone in a dwelling cannot leave their flat due to smoke or fire and they are advised to
01:29:29 to smoke or fire and they are advised to stay in their flat until they're rescued by the firefighters and do firefighters such as yourself get training on on what
01:29:42 such as yourself get training on on what that policy means and how it's carried out no
01:29:56 as that June or before June 2017 did you ever receive any training about the
01:30:07 ever receive any training about the risks associated with cladding on the exterior of high-rise residential blocks no
01:30:20 can I just get back to a question about the statehood policy for the just for one moment if you look at page two of your statement you say in the I suppose
01:30:37 your statement you say in the I suppose it'll be the second paragraph it's about two-thirds of the way down I am aware of the staple of policy for high-rises and you then say earnest in the next sentence the advice given is to stay in
01:30:49 sentence the advice given is to stay in your flat unless it is directly involved in or affected by the fire or if you feel at risk can I just ask you what you mean by or if you feel at risk do you
01:31:02 mean by or if you feel at risk do you mean there that the person giving the advice is advising the resident occupant to assess the risk for themselves
01:31:25 that's probably worth it wrong what I mean by that is to for them to assess the situation if they open their door they see smoke I see fire they stay in their flat okay so in your experience
01:31:38 their flat okay so in your experience and I'm sorry we getting to something we've probably cover later on but just I'm interested in your statement there eight but just to be clear you're saying that the the faster that the when the
01:31:50 that the the faster that the when the stay-put advice is given the caller is just asked to describe what they see rather than to assess the risk yes yes thank you very much
01:32:01 now if you get back to the bottom of page one of your statement you say in the fourth line in April 2017 you say
01:32:13 the fourth line in April 2017 you say that you attended a serious fire at Relic Tower this was a 10 to 15 pump fire and you then go on to say in the
01:32:25 fire and you then go on to say in the following month we covered various aspects of high-rise training and procedures can you explain please what that training involved that involved
01:32:38 that training involved that involved going over what we did on the incident and and seeing what we could do to make that incident or make the make what we
01:32:52 that incident or make the make what we did at that incident improve on what we did okay and who provided that training that post Trellick tower fire training do you know I'll watch manager who was
01:33:03 do you know I'll watch manager who was Mike Davin was it
01:33:09 so that would have been in what May 2017 with it around there yes and what did
01:33:22 with it around there yes and what did you learn about how to make that incident improve that incident was Trellick terrible what did you learn from that that could make your practice
01:33:33 from that that could make your practice after that better and we had a lot of problems with the water it took us half an hour to get into the property and we
01:33:48 an hour to get into the property and we got the council down to sort out their wet rising main we visited the tower we looked at the length of hose needed to
01:34:00 looked at the length of hose needed to get to the to the different flats that we we would need to get to we just went through the on arrival tactics what we did what equipment was taken up to the
01:34:11 did what equipment was taken up to the bridgehead and everything to everything else it were about the incident
01:34:25 you say you got the cancelled down to sort something out could you just expand on that well I say we I mean the five
01:34:36 on that well I say we I mean the five gave got the council down right cuz there was the fire during the day or a night you remember but it was in the
01:34:48 night you remember but it was in the evening I remember it was dark when the fire was after if I was put help do you remember how easy or
01:34:59 help do you remember how easy or difficult it was to contact the council and get them to attend it wasn't made contacted you say it was the fire brigade do you know if it was I'd have been like all right
01:35:18 do you remember a fired Adair tower yes could you tell us when that was remember that was approximately two years before
01:35:32 that was approximately two years before or maybe a year and a half before the 14th furture did you attend it yes was there fire spread there which went
01:35:46 there fire spread there which went outside the compartment of origin yes could you tell us briefly what happened
01:35:53 the fire got out of the front door got into the lobby was in the lobby area and
01:36:07 into the lobby was in the lobby area and spread to the flat next door the door was and this was a high-rise block yes and say it got into the lobby area and
01:36:20 and say it got into the lobby area and then break into another another flat through the front door is it it's it burnt the door but didn't actually the fire didn't actually get through into the next flat by the time we got to it
01:36:32 the next flat by the time we got to it we managed to put it all out right and was there any exterior fire spread I don't know I was inside I'm pretty sure
01:36:43 don't know I was inside I'm pretty sure there wasn't
01:36:49 um before June 2017 had you heard of a fire at Shepherd's court yes did you
01:37:01 fire at Shepherd's court yes did you attend the fire at Shepherds called no
01:37:05 how did you come to hear of the fire at Shepherd's court my watch were in attendance where were you not there
01:37:19 did they come did you okay let me ask you this where what did you learn from your watch mates who were in attendance at Shepherds Court that they had a fire
01:37:32 at Shepherds Court that they had a fire not much more than that it's pretty common for a watch once they've had a fire to discuss it round a mess table mhm and did you discuss round the mess table the one he blew me ask it this way
01:37:47 table the one he blew me ask it this way was there any discussion around the red water mess table of exterior fire spread no that's cool discussion about cladding no did you have any training or
01:38:03 no did you have any training or education or anything like that information or intelligence about exterior fire spread on clad high-rise buildings in the period after August
01:38:15 buildings in the period after August 2016
01:38:16 2016 when Shepherd's Court happened and June 2017 absolutely none
01:38:22 okay we're going to turn to a different topic mr. Bao you happy to continue or would you like a break yeah break
01:38:33 would you like a break yeah break continue yes bring it I want to turn to your prior visits to grenfell tower you you say on page one
01:38:50 seven lines up from the sperry start of your statement Lee sir I have been to grenfell tower on several occasions in a professional capacity and I used to live within the area I know that it was redeveloped about three years ago and my
01:39:02 redeveloped about three years ago and my crew visited during the refurbishment when it was a working site you also say at the top of page two about six lines
01:39:16 at the top of page two about six lines down from the tone so I put it all to you I have completed seven 2d visits to various buildings during my time in the London Fire Brigade however I don't believe that I've ever had to complete
01:39:28 believe that I've ever had to complete one specifically for Grenfell Tower
01:39:36 so am i right in thinking that although your watch mates may have done you never had cause in your time at North Kensington to visit Grenfell tower to do
01:39:48 Kensington to visit Grenfell tower to do a 72 D visit not that I remember now when you say in on page 1 of your statement that you'd been to Grenfell tower in a professional capacity could
01:40:01 tower in a professional capacity could you just explain what you were doing when you visited it in that capacity the last night I went to Grenfell tower was
01:40:14 probably two months before the fire we were called to a lady who was locked out of a flat when we was there we got a
01:40:26 of a flat when we was there we got a lady in and little boy came up in the lift and told us his um his friends had pushed him off his bike so we helped to
01:40:40 pushed him off his bike so we helped to fix his bike for him so we spent about 20 minutes there trying to fix his bike okay
01:40:56 and could you look at your contemporaneous and notes that you did just after the fire I think immediately after the fire on the 14th of June and you'll find those well you should find
01:41:07 you'll find those well you should find those in tab Beale little tab for B of the bundle in front of you I can have it put on the screen and it's DK b3 which is M et quadruple 0 5 3 4 7 now I think
01:41:26 is M et quadruple 0 5 3 4 7 now I think for those who are on small monitors it might be necessary we've got to expand magnified they will you know magnifies mr video do you recognize this document yes what are what is this document there
01:41:38 yes what are what is this document there controvert contemporaneous notes and you did date there's a date at the top 14th of June 2017 it is that when you did is that when you prepared this note yes
01:41:49 is that when you prepared this note yes how soon after the leaving the fire ground at grenfell tower did you prepare this note another Subang you didn't prepare it on the fire ground so when we
01:42:00 prepare it on the fire ground so when we got back to the station back to the station so the events are fresh in your mind yes if you look at 0.2 do you see
01:42:11 mind yes if you look at 0.2 do you see that we'll read together previous knowledge was plentiful now the way it's been magnified I think has deleted all
01:42:23 been magnified I think has deleted all obscured them the very words I wanted to ask you about and see if we can manage previous knowledge was plentiful and then you say 7 2ds brackets over and
01:42:36 then you say 7 2ds brackets over and above it familiarization visits
01:42:44 and then a FAs website 70d civilization visits 1 1 DS a FAS and recent lockout
01:42:55 visits 1 1 DS a FAS and recent lockout fixing boys try to avoid bike now you've told us about the bike colorist ask you you say they're 72 DS familiarization
01:43:06 you say they're 72 DS familiarization visits why did you write that
01:43:14 that was after nine hours of the worst day of my life and it's just something I wrote I don't remember right in that but I'm not sure okay so what I probably
01:43:27 I'm not sure okay so what I probably wrote that because we do 72 days and one month is in tower blocks in North Kensington but given time to think about it I can't remember it actually doing
01:43:40 it I can't remember it actually doing one okay and your statement as a shirt chaining you says that you you didn't complete seven two tees and this contemporaneous notes is that you did yes so to summarize your evidence I
01:43:53 yes so to summarize your evidence I think you're telling us that the statement is right and the contemporaneous eight is not on that point I can't say for certain what what I'm saying is once I thought about I in
01:44:04 I'm saying is once I thought about I in my memory I can't remember doing one and you can remember do yes what about one one DS which is the old that that would be an even further back in in time so I
01:44:15 be an even further back in in time so I definitely can't remember a a phase and I think I know what that stands for but could you just tell me yeah so automated fire alarms right and they would be and what would happen why would you go to
01:44:28 what would happen why would you go to Grand Vitara I swear smoke alarm is a smoke detector has been actuated and they would have a they
01:44:39 actuated and they would have a they would have a alarm panel and we get called we go to check out what's caused the smoke detector to actuate that and
01:44:53 the smoke detector to actuate that and and we sort out thank you now you say in your statement and sorry but we're still on page one of the first paragraph and
01:45:04 on page one of the first paragraph and that you just get back to that you say I know and this is just about seven miles down I know that it was
01:45:15 miles down I know that it was redeveloped about three years ago and my crew visited during the refurbishment when it was a working site did you go on that visit I don't remember no I don't
01:45:28 that visit I don't remember no I don't believe I did did you Matt do you remember having any discussion or conversation with your watch mates about the visit that they did somewhere in my memory I remember
01:45:39 did somewhere in my memory I remember them talking about Reapers you know of the Tri riser okay anything else no at
01:45:53 the Tri riser okay anything else no at the time that was what we thought the most important thing was because it would change our attack if there was a fire there that's all you remember about
01:46:08 fire there that's all you remember about all your crewmates discuss from their visit to the site yes okay mr. chairman I'm gonna turn to a different topic I wonder if nether now might be a
01:46:19 wonder if nether now might be a convenient moment what would be convenient we're going to take a break now mr. vidya we normally have a break of about 15 minutes during the morning and we'll take that now so could you
01:46:32 and we'll take that now so could you leave us and be ready to resume your evidence let's say 25 to 12 thank you very much
01:46:56 all right 25 to 12 piece
01:47:07 you
02:05:20 we almost didn't we just wait a moment for mr. video to be really then we'll carry on
02:05:41 okay
02:05:53 all right mr. video yes right yes just a minute - Thank You mr. chairman mr. video I just want to ask you one very brief training about quick question about training and that's about radio
02:06:04 about training and that's about radio communications do you get any training did you get any training before June 2017 on how to manage difficulties in
02:06:16 2017 on how to manage difficulties in communications on the fire ground between firefighters and firefighters of firefighters in bridge head firefighters and brigade control that kind of thing did you have any training on that do you
02:06:28 did you have any training on that do you mean if radios fail yes No and what if where they don't fail but communications are just very difficult because you can't use the channel for whatever
02:06:39 can't use the channel for whatever reason no we want I want to ask you now about a rival at Grenville tower on the
02:06:50 about a rival at Grenville tower on the night of the fire you turn to your witness statement of paragraph the page 3 there's there's a paragraph in there it's all one you say as we pulled up to Granville tower at
02:07:03 as we pulled up to Granville tower at the very top of the page the engine was parked by the overhang and this was where it remained for the whole night
02:07:13 but by the overhang what do you mean underneath Glen fell walk underneath don't walk now the mobilization and the
02:07:25 don't walk now the mobilization and the shorten survived incident log has you arriving at zero zero hours 59 minutes also um in your statement you say in the
02:07:36 also um in your statement you say in the second line I couldn't see any flames or smoke upon our arrival however Danny said that he could see some smoke and where did you look do you remember
02:07:48 I was in the middle of the fire engine so I didn't get the view that Danny got did you see the other North Kensington pump arrived it arrived behind us robot
02:08:03 and you say that you in the third line you took two lengths of hose and a branch and went into the lobby with three managers secret and battery and
02:08:14 three managers secret and battery and firefighters they burn door goo brown and dissin Taub in those last three I think this is right we're from G - seven
02:08:25 think this is right we're from G - seven - yes did anybody give you instructions as to what to take not instructions we
02:08:39 as to what to take not instructions we had a conversation on the back so four fire engines but before you arrival on a ride yes did you have a discussion on route with the rest of the crew as to
02:08:50 route with the rest of the crew as to what you were getting - yes and what was your understanding of what you were going to yeah what what did you think
02:09:02 going to yeah what what did you think you were going to what kind of incident did you think you were going to when you were on route okay we we were called to a flat file a flat file yes in the kitchen in the kitchen and did anybody
02:09:14 kitchen in the kitchen and did anybody say well did you have an onion any understanding as to what he was on fire in the kitchen nope no one really
02:09:31 and you say that the rest of the crew that stayed outside remained outside to locate the hydrants and this is the top
02:09:42 locate the hydrants and this is the top of page two sorry top of page three the rest of the crew remained outside to locate the hydrants set up water supplies plugging into the dry riser and
02:09:53 supplies plugging into the dry riser and getting the pump going you see that yes um by the rest of the crew who do you mean firefighter bills firefighter April and the governor watch
02:10:05 firefighter April and the governor watch manager okay and where was watch manager
02:10:17 manager okay and where was watch manager Dowden at that time do you remember so at what time at the time that you were locating hydrants setting up water supplies and plugging into the dry riser that wasn't me who was doing that I was
02:10:29 that wasn't me who was doing that I was I was straight into the building you were straight into the building well let's go straight to that you entered the lobby with a group of firefighters I think and if we can just see a
02:10:42 think and if we can just see a photograph this is your right to look at a camera photograph it's a still yes okay could we please have on the screen camera for CCTV ink or inq zero zero
02:10:55 camera for CCTV ink or inq zero zero zero zero zero zero in nine five
02:11:02 and this could just be enlarged thank you we have the time subject to adjustment for this as Oh 101 12 and
02:11:15 adjustment for this as Oh 101 12 and please identify if you can who we see in that picture that looks like me and watch manager Dowden behind me yes and
02:11:26 watch manager Dowden behind me yes and he's wearing the white yes I see Tabard and you're there in the front what are you carrying I'm carrying a length of hose a branch a BA entry control board
02:11:40 hose a branch a BA entry control board and the forward information board right so in your left hand you've got the forward information board is that that is that the white one or the yellow one the white and the yellow one is what the
02:11:54 the white and the yellow one is what the entry control board is it yes and looking at the hose what kind of hose is that what width if hose is that can you tell by looking at it all not really
02:12:05 tell by looking at it all not really okay I'm guessing it's a 45 mil right
02:12:14 now in your statement you say that you were met by a group of people was this
02:12:27 were met by a group of people was this inside the lobby or outside the lobby inside inside and you say and this is I
02:12:39 inside inside and you say and this is I think 10 or so lines down that's about difficult to navigate through this block of text but but if you bear with me about a third of the way down the page you say maybe a
02:12:50 way down the page you say maybe a corporate way down we were met by a by a group of I think four people and I recall one Asian man aged roughly 40 to 50 doing most of the talking he stated that it was their flat that was on fire the flat was in the kitchen they closed
02:13:01 the flat was in the kitchen they closed the door would have left the keys inside the flat he looked worried but I cannot remember anything else about him can I
02:13:13 remember anything else about him can I just ask you to look another CCTV v image which is it's bundled 19 tab sorry bundled tab 19 and tap 20 and I'll give
02:13:24 bundled tab 19 and tap 20 and I'll give you the inca references it's iron q60 is 26 and 27 I just want to see if we can identify the man you talk to 26 and 27
02:13:37 identify the man you talk to 26 and 27 I think that's 26 if we could go to the next one well that's the back of his head I think if we go to the next one it should be clearer mr. video that's not
02:13:51 should be clearer mr. video that's not the next one I don't think
02:13:58 but doing the best we can with what we've got in the time we've got do you think that looks anything like the man that you met and talked to difficult to
02:14:09 that you met and talked to difficult to tell but from that image well let's try to let number 27 I'll give the number again and see if we get the right image this time it's inq six zeros
02:14:20 this time it's inq six zeros twenty-seven it is okay well let's
02:14:28 that's 27 can we get back to 26
02:14:36 that's um we'll come back to that later and we can move on you say he said that there was a fire in his kitchen and that they'd closed the door and left the keys
02:14:47 they'd closed the door and left the keys inside did you hear the whole conversation do you think yes we did what else did he say can you remember that's all I remember him saying okay do you remember how you got from the main
02:14:58 you remember how you got from the main lobby through the internal door to the lifts I believe someone had a fob with someone less fruit do you remember how
02:15:11 someone less fruit do you remember how easy it was to get hold of the fob I believe it was one of the group that was coming down the stairs les lesson right
02:15:24 coming down the stairs les lesson right so it was easy yes right I see and do you remember any time before that well let me ask you this way do you remember
02:15:35 let me ask you this way do you remember arriving and discovering that you needed a fob to get into the inner part of the building so I don't confirm it because when you arrived yes did you have any
02:15:47 when you arrived yes did you have any difficulty to do all other members of your crew have any difficulty accessing the inner part of the building so beyond the lobby into the inner part of the bill but during the night - on arrival
02:15:58 bill but during the night - on arrival at the very beginning not that I remember now okay and let's have a look at another CCTV camera image and this is
02:16:10 at another CCTV camera image and this is a NQ six zeros 96
02:16:30 if you just have that expanded
02:16:35 you can see there a group of seven firefighters with Mike Darden in the foreground to be a wearers and I think
02:16:46 foreground to be a wearers and I think that's you with the entry control board they're standing next to a lady who's wearing it looks like a red shirt do you see that and what did you remember being in that position do you remember that happening that was sort of how I
02:16:59 that happening that was sort of how I explained it earlier yes it seems like she would been the one who lets through the door very good okay thank you and then after that where did you go next do you remember through that door
02:17:11 do you remember through that door through that door and that took you into a lift lobby I think yes and in your statement if you go to page three back to page three that you go on to say
02:17:23 to page three that you go on to say after you say I didn't talk to the group directly and cannot remember who spoke to them you then say crew manager secret tried to use the firefighter key for the lift
02:17:33 lift however this didn't work which was a little surprising that didn't concern as much as we were only going to the fourth floor I'll come back to the next sentence in a moment but they just want
02:17:45 sentence in a moment but they just want to look at the facts at the moment you describe crew manager secret trying to use the firefighter key for the lift but it didn't work I better show you a picture if you look at the CCTV picture
02:18:00 picture if you look at the CCTV picture inq and six zeros nine eight ninety eight
02:18:11 I'll have that enlarged
02:18:16 um could you describe for us what you see here this is a timestamp of oh one oh three thirty five subject to adjustment just does not Sam C crew
02:18:29 adjustment just does not Sam C crew manager secret attempting to get the firefighter lift to work okay and who is immediately behind him that's five five
02:18:40 immediately behind him that's five five bro and then I think you're just coming through the door is this right with the electoral board and other things okay and they're just
02:18:53 and other things okay and they're just so I'm clear immediately behind him can you identify the firefighter is coming through who's also holding some hose
02:19:07 it looks like crew manager better be okay and can you describe for us what a firefighter key is the crew manager
02:19:21 firefighter key is the crew manager secret was using yeah it's called a express lift key and it's a drop key that you put into a hole turn it and it
02:19:32 that you put into a hole turn it and it enables her firefighter lifts we also use it when there's people stuck in lifts it enables us to and do you remember we're crew managers secret got it from on the night no but I do know
02:19:48 it from on the night no but I do know that um crew manages secret has his own
02:19:53 Xpress lifts key okay and you say it was a little surprising but it didn't work why do you say it was surprising or a little surprising
02:20:06 surprising or a little surprising because they should work she should work yes is it common in your experience or was it common in your experience at the
02:20:17 was it common in your experience at the time that a firefighter key wouldn't work when you arrived at an incident I would say common but I have known it before not to work did you have any
02:20:29 before not to work did you have any specific knowledge or experience about these lifts at Greenville tower
02:20:39 what happened when he tried to take control of the lift like I said it didn't work so it just continued as a normal lift
02:20:57 and in your experience wood thief lyft continuing as a normal lifts have consequences for the occupants of the
02:21:08 consequences for the occupants of the building
02:21:18 there would be um signs on every floor to say not not to use the lift in the event of fire because even if we took control of that firefighter and lifters
02:21:29 control of that firefighter and lifters still another lift next to it which they could use and if the lift was uncontrolled by the fire brigade and left available to occupants of the
02:21:40 left available to occupants of the building to use what consequences might that have for their safety it it means that the lift could open on any door could open up to a the fire floor or a
02:21:54 could open up to a the fire floor or a floor that is filled with smoke so yes yeah of course in danger um I'm just gonna show you one or two more pictures
02:22:05 gonna show you one or two more pictures of on this subject if you could look at the next picture which is CCTV camera five inq six zero is nine nine this is
02:22:18 five inq six zero is nine nine this is taken only a few seconds later at oh one oh one forty nine subject to adjustment and we have crew manager secret they're doing something with his right hand with
02:22:30 doing something with his right hand with with what looks like the key and something with his left hand do you remember what he was doing could you describe that for us
02:22:40 I don't remember about what it looks to me he's trying to operate the firefighter lift and press the button for the lift at the center and why would
02:22:51 for the lift at the center and why would you do why would one normally do that so called the lift down answer operate the firefighter lift you did it the same time to you with a key and the button no not I believe what he's doing there is
02:23:06 not I believe what he's doing there is attempting to call the firefighter lift and realizing it's not working so calling the lift down anyway oh I see okay on your best guess how much time do
02:23:21 okay on your best guess how much time do you think you lost by reason of not having the firefighter lift or fire lift working you want me to guess well it's
02:23:32 working you want me to guess well it's it as an estimate oh and guess that's a better word okay two minutes two minutes
02:23:47 and so you then get into the lift and I'll just show you a picture of that that's all right if you go to or be taken to inq six zeros one hundred this is CT CCTV camera
02:24:00 zeros one hundred this is CT CCTV camera five taken an O one o 158 subject to adjustment I think that's you would that
02:24:13 adjustment I think that's you would that be right you this is you getting into the lift you the crew look with the crew getting into the lift yes and then we have a lift camera at C 18 camera C 18 at o 102 15 which is from the next image
02:24:26 at o 102 15 which is from the next image on 101 what do we see there
02:24:37 that's our signal lift it like it got a tight squeeze a very tight squeeze would it be normal to use the lift to pile in
02:24:48 it be normal to use the lift to pile in to be a workers and then all the equipment we do what we can to get there as fast as we can very good now you go up to usually say
02:24:59 very good now you go up to usually say this on page three of your statement about halfway down you say I can't remember if we took the lift the usual way if we walked up the stairs to the second floor and the bridge head of the
02:25:10 second floor and the bridge head of the BA entry control was set up here could you just explain what entry control is that's a bi entry control so that's
02:25:22 that's a bi entry control so that's where any BA wearers will log in and log out before going going up to a fire or going to complete a rescue and what does
02:25:36 going to complete a rescue and what does the entry Control Board do so you have a key on your PA set and you would place that inside the BA board and it will show lots of stuff how
02:25:50 board and it will show lots of stuff how much air is in your set how close you are to the timer whistle how close you are to your air running out also on the board it were it will be a tension
02:26:03 board it were it will be a tension control officer will write down certain things might write down your your callsign
02:26:11 callsign if you've got comms where you're going what you're going to do what you're carrying with you and can the enter the control control board communicate with
02:26:24 control control board communicate with the firefighter and yes how does it do that
02:26:28 that you can press a button on the board which will even that a little Running Man which will show you that you need to
02:26:41 Man which will show you that you need to evacuate or there's a big Running Man which you press and hold which will cause everybody to in fact
02:26:51 now you in your statement say that in the middle of the page walked up the stairs to the second floor and the bridgehead and ba entry control was set up here mr. butabi
02:27:04 up here mr. butabi gave us some evidence about that yesterday but I want your recollection - if I can whereabouts exactly was the ba entry control
02:27:16 exactly was the ba entry control established I watched croute - better be some evidence yesterday and and that's
02:27:29 some evidence yesterday and and that's probably the first time I've thought about because I don't remember sir okay having heard him I would say that was correct yes but you don't have do you have any independent recollection of
02:27:40 have any independent recollection of your own no you don't all right I didn't spend much time there we went straight up to certain siddur try buys a house but that's my next next question so you say you go straight to you stay at edrick control or do you go straight on
02:27:52 edrick control or do you go straight on up straight up so you weren't under air no okay so there's no reason for you to stay on the bridge had the bridge enter and what were the conditions like in the stair at the second floor where the
02:28:03 stair at the second floor where the bridge head was set up when you first got there completely clear and what about in the stairs on the way up to the fourth floor completely clear you got up you got up to the fourth floor correct
02:28:16 you got up to the fourth floor correct by stairs
02:28:16 by stairs yes and when you got to the fourth floor who did you go with firefighter talkin and fire out open and what did you carry with you
02:28:28 with you I believe hose and the bunch
02:28:37 and what did can you remember what firefighters dog und burn were carrying do you remember no
02:28:56 in your statement you say when we got to the fourth floor we found the dry riser set it in and flaked out the hose um
02:29:08 set it in and flaked out the hose um who's the we obviously that's you who else did you do that with firefighter burn and firefighter dog poop okay and
02:29:24 burn and firefighter dog poop okay and firefighters better be in bran you say they were setting up there be a sets where were they doing that at the quick head so they were still downstairs cut okay and when you were doing the at that
02:29:40 okay and when you were doing the at that exercise finding the dry riser setting it in the flaking out the house what were the conditions in the lobby like the air conditioners what were they like they were clear yeah there was this a
02:29:52 they were clear yeah there was this a slight smell of a fire yes and we look if we look a little bit lower down on page three of your statement you say we
02:30:06 page three of your statement you say we then radio down to the bridge head informing them that we were ready and to turn on to turn the water supply on I couldn't see any fire and there was only a small amount of very light wispy smoke so where was that
02:30:19 so where was that wispy smoke that yuccas I believe it was coming out at the door coming out of the door which door so I had a front door to flat 16 front door flat 16 whereabouts
02:30:31 flat 16 front door flat 16 whereabouts in the door well was the door open or closed
02:30:34 closed that's always closed as close so we're in the door was the light wispy smoke coming out to tell the truth for I am when I say it was coming out the door I'm guessing that it was coming out the
02:30:47 I'm guessing that it was coming out the docks that's where the fire was I see but I I didn't I couldn't see like smoke coming out of there I follow it was just in the area so I guessed it it
02:30:58 was just in the area so I guessed it it had to be coming from right and was the light wispy smoke all across the lobby or any part of no it's sort of where the door was okay and can
02:31:10 sort of where the door was okay and can you describe the colors of the smoke a light color so um great luck wait did they have any particular smell
02:31:23 Jessie smell the fire nice was there anything at that stage to give you cause for concern that you saw
02:31:40 I don't understand the question Jemaine huh because we've we've been called to a fire so as obviously concerned because we're going to put this fire out there was nothing out of
02:31:53 this fire out there was nothing out of the ordinary if you're if that's what the question is thank you you say a little earlier on you found the dry riser that's on the fourth floor is it
02:32:07 riser that's on the fourth floor is it that's what you found it yes and did you know where to look for it
02:32:13 it or did you have to look around and find it yeah I knew where it was who told you where it was remember I from previous visits there I knew where
02:32:24 from previous visits there I knew where it was okay
02:32:34 and you say you set it in and flaked out the hose you see that in your statement there could you just explain what that process involves step by step yes so you
02:32:45 process involves step by step yes so you you have the coupling you plug it into the dryer riser you take the hose and you flake it so it doesn't get tangled when the water's turned on you flake it
02:32:57 when the water's turned on you flake it and and leave it at the front door and you say you flake it yes you snake it so in a that sort of fashion okay let's see
02:33:09 in a that sort of fashion okay let's see when you're laying it out on the floor you give it bends do you yes I see if you'd left a bit rolled up any of it it tends to get tangled when you put pressure but what a minute
02:33:21 pressure but what a minute yes it's a technique that we're um trained it yes I understand thank you you say later on in your statement and I'm not gonna take it to you that the outlet is protected by glass do you
02:33:33 outlet is protected by glass do you remember whether the dry riser outlet on the fourth floor was protected by by glass I believe so yes did it need to be unlocked yes do you remember who
02:33:47 unlocked yes do you remember who unlocked it no how do what would you unlock it with normally okay this is that is which key is that is it the same as the Express key no differently where would you get the key from for the
02:33:58 would you get the key from for the drought for the dry riser come last I believe it was probably one of the FB keys that we carry on the fire engine who was it who actually plugged
02:34:09 engine who was it who actually plugged the dry riser hose into the fourth floor dry riser outlet it would have been either just fire fire burn or firefight dogged okay you can't remember
02:34:24 is it standard procedure to plug in on the fire floor no why did you decide well so why did you plug in on the fourth floor in this case it's quickest
02:34:37 fourth floor in this case it's quickest way to get into that flat
02:34:41 what would the normal procedure be one floor below did anybody give you instructions not to follow the standard procedure on this occasion but to plug
02:34:52 procedure on this occasion but to plug in on the fire floor it was a discussion we had between us who was party to that discussion of fire fire burn and fire fire dog where's Phyllis we've had sixty
02:35:03 fire dog where's Phyllis we've had sixty years of experiences I understand where did that discussion take place in the lobby in the lobby to the filthy floor at the fourth floor lobby yes so when you've gone up there yes I saw that the
02:35:14 you've gone up there yes I saw that the conditions were safe to do so and it was a quickest way so we did it and did you inform watch manager Dowden that that is what you were doing plugging into the
02:35:25 what you were doing plugging into the dry riser on the fourth floor I don't believe so I don't I didn't personally okay
02:35:35 was there later on a further hose plugged into the dry rising main on the third floor yes when was that after
02:35:50 third floor yes when was that after firefighters firefight at brown and crouppen each year better pee came up took control of the house that was going into the flat we went down and set up
02:36:02 into the flat we went down and set up the second hose and what did you do with the second hose into the third floor
02:36:10 took the hose out of the third floor lobby up the stairwell and waited at the fourth floor the door of the lobby in
02:36:21 fourth floor the door of the lobby in the stairwell of the fourth floor ready for the next crew to back up the first clue
02:36:27 clue did that mean that the door from the third floor lobby into the stairwell had to be propped open by this by the hose that came out from the third floor lobby into the stair yes and then the door
02:36:40 into the stair yes and then the door from the stair into the fourth floor lobby on the fourth wall also had to be propped open to allow their hose to come back into the fourth lobby fourth floor lobby yes so you had two stairs on two
02:36:52 lobby yes so you had two stairs on two different floors open into the lobby I entered the stairwell yes to stair doors right would that be normal that's normal procedure yes and if we had followed procedure in the first place then that
02:37:04 procedure in the first place then that first that first hose would have propped open both doors yeah so doing what we did with our first attack stopped any
02:37:15 did with our first attack stopped any doors from being opened yes and then then the second hose prop two doors open unfortunately that's that's the only way we can do it in Ingram hotel i suture me
02:37:27 hotel i suture me and does that propping of doors open on multiple floors did did that create a risk or smoke spreading from the lobbies
02:37:40 risk or smoke spreading from the lobbies into the stairs yes definite so can you just help me work understand why that would be normal procedure if it did have that risk I can't explain that
02:37:51 did have that risk I can't explain that that's you'd have to ask someone from who writes the procedures there enough we will thank you
02:38:05 both of a different feeling with the bottom of page 3 and you say are we going to another topic no I'm sorry I'm not I mean it will be no worse still
02:38:17 I'm not I mean it will be no worse still it would cut close to another topic well it since I have interrupted you week later sauce do you need a break at this stage or you you'll have I'm very good all right thank you very much I'm not
02:38:31 all right thank you very much I'm not worried whether I should be asking in five minutes time but you'll get there mister um video looking at the bottom of page three of your statement you say I
02:38:42 page three of your statement you say I saw the daughter flat sixteen which I believe had the number in the middle and the letterbox was at waist height approximately nothing L stood out about the door Dani and Charlie soon arrived in there be a sets and approach the flat
02:38:54 in there be a sets and approach the flat I remember them having a look through the letterbox and then they shouted a warning that they were breaking the door down so the rest of us retreated back out onto the stairwell is see that what
02:39:09 out onto the stairwell is see that what it did you actually see them break the door down
02:39:12 door down no so you've gone out into the stairwell by night as soon as we get the call that they're going to break the door down we're not in BA so we retreat to a safe area now did you all go out into the
02:39:24 area now did you all go out into the stairwell and not see the door be broken down or was that just you all of us except the to be a quick okay let me
02:39:35 except the to be a quick okay let me just time take this in stages so who was it who went out into the stairwell at the moment when Dani and Charlie said they were going to break the door down
02:39:47 they were going to break the door down me firefighter of our band and firefighter firefighter you all went out onto the stairwell at that point yeah as soon as as soon as that instruction comes we lived at lower Y okay the reason I ask you mr. Padilla is because
02:40:00 reason I ask you mr. Padilla is because mr. Wrayburn has given us a statement which will obviously explore with him I'm not suggesting to you that it's absolutely correct but I have to ask you about his recollection and he says that
02:40:11 about his recollection and he says that he saw smoke coming out when batter B and brown break the all done and that's why he says because he saw the smoke that's why you and he and firefighter dog who went into the
02:40:23 and firefighter dog who went into the stairs
02:40:24 stairs what's your recollection what I said but you think is wrong no doesn't matter no it doesn't get your recollection your and my recollection is what I've said
02:40:36 and my recollection is what I've said but okay yeah did you radio down to the bridgehead at any point to tell them what you were doing
02:40:53 I don't remember we are on channel 1 the bridgehead who were talking third of the eight crews who on Channel six so it
02:41:05 eight crews who on Channel six so it would be the procedure that once the be a crew enters the flat then they will radio down to the bridgehead to let them know that they are now in the flat right
02:41:17 did you or firefighters dog you Oh or a burn as far as you remember use your radios to communicate with Mike down at
02:41:28 radios to communicate with Mike down at that point no do you remember whether you or firefighter dog ooh or firefighter burn receive any updates from Mike doubt as to what was happening
02:41:39 from Mike doubt as to what was happening outside the building at that size no okay I'm now going to turn to a slightly different topic which is going which is when you go down to the third floor to
02:41:51 when you go down to the third floor to set in that the backup hose do you happy to continue yes okay so you say on page four of your statement first paragraph
02:42:03 five lines down six six lines down I'm sorry
02:42:10 sorry as the ba crews were going in do you see that there he says as the ba crews were going and I went down to the third floor in order to set in the dry riser as more hose was required for the fire and the
02:42:21 hose was required for the fire and the next be a crew and you know you say someone else had the keys so I smashed the glass with the front of the house so that I could connected up then flaked it out and went back to the fourth floor
02:42:32 out and went back to the fourth floor and waited on the stairwell
02:42:38 why did you have to smash the glass with the front of the hose to plug in as quickly as I could and I didn't have
02:42:49 quickly as I could and I didn't have time to find whoever had the key so whoever whoever opened the key on the fourth floor was not there at the time so right I did what I had to do and you
02:43:05 so right I did what I had to do and you don't remember I think who had the key right and then once you access the outlet do you remember who plugged the hose into the outlet that was me that
02:43:17 hose into the outlet that was me that was you again Justin it burned firefighter who burned says that it was firefighter dog who trying to do it but getting it wrong so he helped him that's
02:43:29 getting it wrong so he helped him that's what he says do you remember that what's that on the third floor yes okay okay what okay you remember that that's what happens on the initial
02:43:43 that's what happens on the initial stages of setting up you're doing so much at one time okay that's my recollection but then it can be a bit confusing with who sets into I if I've
02:43:58 confusing with who sets into I if I've smashed the glass to the cabinet I'm literally there I can't see why I would then pass it to someone else to
02:44:09 would then pass it to someone else to plug in and then you say you flaked out the hose
02:44:19 and went back to the fourth floor and waited on the stairwell do you remember where you left the hose I didn't leave the hose I stayed with the hose until the next crew came up okay and why did
02:44:32 the next crew came up okay and why did you go back why did you go back up to the fourth floor to wait for the next crew to come on to back up the BI credit oh that was already in flat 16 and do
02:44:45 oh that was already in flat 16 and do you remember what firefighters they burn and dog you were doing do they come with you back up to the fourth floor at that stage I believe I was on my own right
02:44:56 stage I believe I was on my own right where did they go do you know I don't know actually I think Justin was a firefighter Verne was with me he was a
02:45:07 firefighter Verne was with me he was a little bit further up okay
02:45:15 and you say you waited in the stairwell on the stairwell why did you wait there in safer safer so was the stair door
02:45:29 in safer safer so was the stair door shuttle will open to the fore for loving us a little bit quite close so keep it close as long as we can okay and while you were waiting outside the fourth
02:45:42 you were waiting outside the fourth floor lobby on the on the stairwell what did the second be a crew do do you know what did they do what did they did they
02:45:54 what did they do what did they did they come up yes they did did you remember who they were I know one of them was firefighter Barton yes and the other one was firefighter
02:46:05 and the other one was firefighter O'Hanlon do you remember that as a matter of rebeled I don't remember at the time but I've I now know that yes and had they taken the hose that you had
02:46:16 and had they taken the hose that you had set in for them yes okay did you brief them on the details of the of what you knew about the fire yes what did you tell them my brief was
02:46:30 yes what did you tell them my brief was literally that fire was in the kitchen I explained to him where the flat was when they went into the lobby and who was already in there firefighter brown and
02:46:42 already in there firefighter brown and crouppen is your baby
02:46:45 what did firefighters Barton and they Hanlon do next remember they entered their Lobby they entered the lobby what did where we what did you do did you follow the mineral did you stay
02:46:56 you follow the mineral did you stay honest do I stay there okay did you radio down to anybody to tell anybody that
02:47:07 that the second be a crew had entered the fourth floor lobby no
02:47:16 I want to turn to the next topic which is reports of fires on the fifth and sixth floors in your statement of page
02:47:27 sixth floors in your statement of page four paragraph second paragraph you say I waited on the stairwell and not long
02:47:38 I waited on the stairwell and not long later some people started to come down the stairs from the floors above and we'll look at we'll look at this in some detail but can I start by asking you say not long later how long do you think
02:47:50 not long later how long do you think you'd been waiting on the stairwell before the people you saw came down it was you're talking minutes maybe one two
02:48:06 was you're talking minutes maybe one two minutes and was that after firefighters Barton and O'Hanlon had gone in to the fourth floor lobby the way I remember it
02:48:19 fourth floor lobby the way I remember it yes you go on in your statement to say that they said that they were from floors 5 & 6 so that their flats were on fire
02:48:36 they appear to be overcome with smoke their eyes were streaming they were coughing and spluttering and look panicked did you speak to them
02:48:52 yes
02:48:56 would you like to have a break hello would you like to have a break now I'm climbing in here okay do you remember how many people they were in the first group that you saw it says on my
02:49:09 group that you saw it says on my statement maybe ten to twelve but I can't be sure
02:49:23 it was as old at once it was sort of a Sun coming down and then some more coming down you say in your statement I recognize someone I know someone I know that didn't talk to him his name is
02:49:35 know that didn't talk to him his name is Romero and his brothers are my friends maybe 10 to 12 people came down all in the same physical state there's that did speak to us were in a state of panic and use broken English combined with my
02:49:47 use broken English combined with my previous experiences of high-rise fires I thought they meant their flats were just filled with smoke rather than actually being on fire I want to stop there and ask you a number of questions
02:49:59 there and ask you a number of questions about that um you say earlier all in that passage in the second line of the paragraph they said they were from floors 5 & 6 did
02:50:11 said they were from floors 5 & 6 did they actually say that to you yes did you say that their eyes were streaming and they work offering it spluttering yes could you you could see that could you yes did you were you concerned about
02:50:26 you yes did you were you concerned about that yes what were your thoughts to find out if there was fire in their flat and
02:50:37 out if there was fire in their flat and to get the people out okay you say in your statement that you thought their flats were just filled with smoke rather than actually being on fire as you can
02:50:48 than actually being on fire as you can see when the highlighted yellow bit on the screen but it can I ask you if their flats on two levels above the fire floor so up to floor six but they're full of
02:51:01 so up to floor six but they're full of smoke five and six each full of smoke what did that tell you about whether compartment ation between any of these floors four five and six that were still
02:51:13 floors four five and six that were still holding
02:51:16 at the time I through previous experience of I've only ever been to one block of flats where a fire has jumped up into the next on to the next level so
02:51:30 up into the next on to the next level so I thought it needed further investigation but at that stage I was thinking some smoke had traveled up some
02:51:43 thinking some smoke had traveled up some smoke the drug about that that was my first thought right but at the same stop time Justin said he would go up would have a firefighter burn said he would go up and
02:51:55 firefighter burn said he would go up and have a look okay I'll come back to that at just a moment can I just ask you the follow-up question on on your experience you saved into one block of flats where
02:52:06 you saved into one block of flats where a fire had jumped up to the next on to the next level when was that do you remember that was about 10 years ago where was that look at that that was
02:52:23 I believe camel would walk camels would walk yes which is not far from Grand Hotel and do you remember anything about
02:52:35 Hotel and do you remember anything about the exterior of that building it was brick the flames came out the window the next window was open it caught fire to the curtains and that's how it got in
02:52:47 to the curtains and that's how it got in city to the next flap so it penetrated from the outside into the inside of the floor above yes
02:53:04 and you say you needed to find out more did you ask any of the people you saw about what was happening in their flats about the extent of the fire fire and smoke the thought at that time they
02:53:18 smoke the thought at that time they looked panicked and eyes were streaming the I'm not going to stop and have a conversation with him on a stairwell and get them out at the building and yes you
02:53:32 get them out at the building and yes you say get them out of the building did you have any thoughts about what the right fire safety advice to give to those people was to get out of building and
02:53:44 people was to get out of building and what about other people on the same floors four five and six indeed I needed to investigate further first of all and did you Justina burn went up and I tried
02:53:58 did you Justina burn went up and I tried to radio down to the incident commander okay see let's take the second of those parts of it answer first radiating down
02:54:09 parts of it answer first radiating down to the incident commander do you remember
02:54:10 remember radioing down to Mike Dowden - sir - tell him about what you had learned about what was happening on floors 5 & 6 my radio battery had found member at
02:54:22 my radio battery had found member at some stage just in fro me his spare battery from his tunic I'll put it on tried to radio down there was so much traffic going on at that stage and I
02:54:34 traffic going on at that stage and I couldn't get through really did it surprise you that there was a lot of traffic going on at that stage and you couldn't get through
02:54:48 you go to incidents and there is usually a lot of traffic out of fire so not entirely right it says it quite common
02:54:59 entirely right it says it quite common in your experience that you're in a high-rise block out of fire you can't get hold of the incident commander on the ground yes that is common is that something is that a matter of concern or
02:55:11 something is that a matter of concern or has that been a matter of concern to you as a firefighter definitely yes have you raised it with anybody have you had gone to your senior officers times this lots of problems with the radios and right so is this a
02:55:25 with the radios and right so is this a common problem in the London Fire Brigade with radios was most definitely yes right and do you have any idea of what the common problem actually is
02:55:36 what the common problem actually is what's the root of the problem do you know technically you mean yes no is there any other kind of problem with
02:55:47 is there any other kind of problem with the radios yes yeah that's what such as what Barry sets useless useless how there you have a thing that goes on the
02:56:02 there you have a thing that goes on the top of your head yes thing that goes in your ear you've put your helmet on it pushes the mask out you loser you have a
02:56:13 pushes the mask out you loser you have a you have a lead that comes down that you'd somehow if that suck in between your tunic and around feels like something from the dark ages from the dark ages it's well I'd say the dark
02:56:26 dark ages it's well I'd say the dark ages back I know it's not modern we um I'm not gonna lie sometimes there's a choice of having a full tank of air or
02:56:38 choice of having a full tank of air or getting your comm set a lot of people shy away from getting a concert there Barry because of how useless they are and is that your own expert experience
02:56:49 and is that your own expert experience yes and have you personally raised this concern about the Barry say within our senior officer or anybody responsible for we've talked about it random random sto yes you've talked
02:57:02 random random sto yes you've talked about lamb animus table do you know it's a it's a commonly known thing so yeah okay it's throughout the brigade I believe all right that's the berry the
02:57:16 I believe all right that's the berry the VAR ie set any other communications equipment that you have personally experienced problems with the handheld radios as well and you'd mentioned the
02:57:28 radios as well and you'd mentioned the problem with with traffic what other kinds of problems have you encountered
02:57:35 specifically in high-rise buildings sir yes seemed to be a lot of blind spots the higher you go up the building the less reliable is said that point of
02:57:49 less reliable is said that point of nothing at all is that that your personal experience at attending high-rise incidences yes and from your knowledge is that the experience of your colleagues your colleague firefighters
02:58:00 colleagues your colleague firefighters of other people only their firefighters on my watch and they all seem to have had the same experience yes and to your knowledge as a do 2017 was this blind
02:58:12 knowledge as a do 2017 was this blind spot problem with radios and high-rise residential buildings well-known in the fire brigade
02:58:29 the berry definitely yes I'm not sure about their blind spots and was blind spots something that you ever took up
02:58:40 spots something that you ever took up all new had been taken up with senior officers responsible for equipment the blind spots in the Ingram hotel was a
02:58:52 blind spots in the Ingram hotel was a sort of bit of a new experience for me we attend we attend a lot of things in in different tower blocks I've been to
02:59:06 in different tower blocks I've been to the top of a lot of tower blocks because we go to lift motor rooms at the top of tower blocks and we usually um radio down to wherever the lift is to assist with getting people out a lifts and I
02:59:18 with getting people out a lifts and I can't remember it being a problem before so what was it about grünfeld tower that you found was a new experience as you just said that we couldn't use a radio
02:59:29 just said that we couldn't use a radio so hyoe we were up in the tower above which floors do you think you couldn't use the radios do you know definitely on
02:59:40 use the radios do you know definitely on the 15th from the 20th floor it was that your personal experience yes just and do
02:59:51 your personal experience yes just and do you know from your own knowledge that that was the experience of other firefighters attending Grenfell tower on that night on the 20th floor yes right who which individual firefighters had
03:00:04 who which individual firefighters had that extent experience to your knowledge fire at door go and five and crew manager secret actually would we can ask tender that night as well mister video
03:00:16 tender that night as well mister video would you like a break or youth up fine mr. chairman I'm keen to carry on if we can yes
03:00:23 can yes is that all right well if the witness this video you're happy to keep yeah answering questions for a bit longer are you yes well then I think we should carry
03:00:35 you just one more question on the communications just came back to an answer you gave a little bit earlier about your battery failing and Justin about having to give you a spare when
03:00:50 about having to give you a spare when you leave a station or on a shout that's the right expression and call yes do you normally ensure that your fire ground radio has a charged battery off or the
03:01:03 radio has a charged battery off or the fresh battery at the start of what shoes you should yes do you remember doing that on that night at the start of the work shirt yes believe I did yes say was it a surprise to you that your battery
03:01:15 it a surprise to you that your battery packed up yes is that a common experience that these fire ground radios have batteries that pack up on the fire ground that's a fair question it happens yeah it does it does happen
03:01:27 it happens yeah it does it does happen what backup plans do you have if your fire ground radio packs up we usually carry a spare one in my in our own pocket of our tunic okay did you have
03:01:38 pocket of our tunic okay did you have one on that I didn't have one on that stage what do you know why that was I believe it was on charge in the station oh I see okay now you also think said a
03:01:52 oh I see okay now you also think said a minute ago that you see radio damn to Mike Dunn I couldn't get through did you tell anybody else all I mean let me put
03:02:03 tell anybody else all I mean let me put it a different way did you communicate with anybody outside the building about what the people coming down from the fifth and sixth floors have told you about the conditions that they were experiencing my next action was to when
03:02:19 experiencing my next action was to when I couldn't get hold of Mike doubt and was to go down and find him myself the old-fashioned way by talking to him
03:02:33 you went down to find him yourself okay there may be some things between that but I'm going to let me just go straight to that so you went down to finding yourself did you did you exit the building I didn't I got
03:02:46 did you exit the building I didn't I got to the bridgehead spoke to crew manager secret who informed me that they already knew outside that the fire had spread
03:02:59 knew outside that the fire had spread very good okay and I think we might be able to pick this up in your statement actually at the bottom of page four you
03:03:10 actually at the bottom of page four you say there I was unable if mrs. five lines up from the bottom I was unable to send a radio message with the update so I thought it would be best if I went and told the governor much manager dad and
03:03:21 told the governor much manager dad and myself as I made my way down to the bridgehead to go and speak to the governor Chris Secret and Alex over there at ba control I updated Chris I can't remember exactly what was said
03:03:33 can't remember exactly what was said from this conversation I believe that the governor was already aware that the fire had spread
03:03:45 first of all Alex's Alex doesn't Alban is it yes okay and question is what did firefighter secret
03:03:56 firefighter secret crew manager secret and firefighter doesn't Alban tell you mr. Padilla video about what was going on did they tell you anything as you can see in my
03:04:11 you anything as you can see in my statement I don't remember what exactly was said so you knew that the fire had spread did you yourself consider that
03:04:22 spread did you yourself consider that you would need to rethink the plan for what was going to happen at the incident yes and what did you think that we were
03:04:34 yes and what did you think that we were gonna have to get be a cruise up to the next two floors to extinguish the fires okay I'm just gonna come come back to that and they can I just go back a
03:04:45 that and they can I just go back a little bit in your statement that perhaps a little bit in in in time page four of your statement second paragraph you say the middle of that paragraph I
03:05:04 you say the middle of that paragraph I thought this is after the conversation you'd had that because of the compartmentalization of the flats it would be very unlikely that the fire would have licked up two floors then you go on about your experience that you told us about there and then you say but
03:05:18 told us about there and then you say but I just thought that they meant their flats were filled with smoke and then you say Justin went up the stairs with a firefighter from Kensington called Jamal to check it out and came back and said
03:05:30 to check it out and came back and said there was fire on those floors now just just unpacking that a little bit Jamal is that Jamal Stern yes
03:05:40 when roughly in - Justin and Jamal arrived at the fourth floor how long had you how long after your conversation
03:05:52 you how long after your conversation with the individuals that you'd seen coming from floors five and six did your conversation with Jamal adjusted take place do you remember you're talking
03:06:03 place do you remember you're talking summit between two and five minutes okay did you have a did you have a discussion with them they just told me there was fire in the flats so you had thought
03:06:16 fire in the flats so you had thought that there was smoke but there they were now saying no there's fire there they confirmed what the residents that were coming down the stairs a headset and what were your thoughts about that that I need to get the message out to okay
03:06:29 I need to get the message out to okay say it's not a sleep went out yeah
03:06:35 did you have any thoughts about more general evacuation of the block at that point it's not at that stage you say you
03:06:48 point it's not at that stage you say you went down and and you speak to crew manager secret and firefighter doesn't orb in did you tell them that there are flats on floors five and six which are
03:06:59 flats on floors five and six which are actually on fire yes do you know what they did next what did they do next that you saw
03:07:10 I didn't stay I am told then and went and then went downstairs in your statement at the bottom of page four at the top of page five you say there were
03:07:23 the top of page five you say there were lots of firefighters around all with BA sets on and waiting to go in and I decided I needed to go and get mine as more people were needed
03:07:35 when you say lots of BA wearers were there more ba wearers there at that time when you arrived with the bridgehead than you would have expected
03:08:01 more than I would expect it wasn't something that entered my head no okay
03:08:12 something that entered my head no okay you go on to say there must have been at least eight crews by this point however I'm unsure as to when this was increased when you saw that there were at least eight crews at this point did you have
03:08:25 eight crews at this point did you have any thoughts about whether that was a lot or a little more a lot yes it was and did that surprise you from where I come yeah and it was just North Cain's
03:08:40 come yeah and it was just North Cain's crew and two other machines that were sent on to the incident to start with you right and you went to go and get
03:08:51 you right and you went to go and get your own breathing apparatus from your appliance I think that was the next thing you did because you say at the
03:09:02 thing you did because you say at the very top well let me ask it a different way you say in the passage I've just read to you at the top of page five I decided I needed to go and get in mine that's be a set as more people were needed um my question is did you make
03:09:16 needed um my question is did you make that decision on your own initiative or did you do that under instructions I'll make that decision on my own okay you say three lines or two lines down from
03:09:28 say three lines or two lines down from that in the third line it was organized chaos what do you mean by that there was a lot of people buzzing around and it was people wanting to get in and
03:09:42 and it was people wanting to get in and fight a fire chaos I understand what was organized about it
03:09:50 people were running up but they was also in a queue to get in who was giving
03:10:02 in a queue to get in who was giving instructions to the VA crews as to where to go and and what to do I I literally ran past them to get my set I wasn't I
03:10:14 ran past them to get my set I wasn't I didn't stay there to see who was given instructions to who okay so you did is this right we do you wouldn't know then what plan might have been being followed
03:10:27 what plan might have been being followed at the bridgehead about where and who to deploy no now you then on page five four
03:10:41 deploy no now you then on page five four lines down you say I passed other firefighters on the walkway down to the lobby and as I got to the ground floor to make my way back to the engine I was stopped by a lady who told me that her
03:10:52 stopped by a lady who told me that her little sister was up on the 20th floor in flat 176 now I got to read the whole of this paragraph out aloud if I may mr. Padilla looking at it you were right
03:11:04 Padilla looking at it you were right that I do that
03:11:08 she said that her sister was 12 years old and called Jessica and that she was in the flat alone the lady asked me if she could go up with me to get her she
03:11:20 she could go up with me to get her she was in her late teens Hispanic looking had black hair she was slim at about 5 foot 4 inches tall mr. B down I'm happy to stop with this if you if you want me
03:11:32 to stop with this if you if you want me to like no I'm fine because we can take a break we can take a break and even we can take it from the page if you like mr. Chairman I think perhaps all to have a break he's had a long morning well he
03:11:43 a break he's had a long morning well he has he's done extremely well in terms of time for answering questions I'm just wondering before we decide what to do mr. Willet you've obviously got more questions as it would upset your program
03:11:57 questions as it would upset your program if we had a slightly longer than usual lunch break I'm thinking that might have missed a video to have I think two o'clock does not have enveloping all
03:12:08 o'clock does not have enveloping all right yes I think yes I think we'll do that mr. do you have been giving evidence for a long time and they'll break Nath for lunch we'll come back at 2:00 o'clock that'll
03:12:19 we'll come back at 2:00 o'clock that'll give you an hour and a quarter to get something to eat and be ready to carry on all right but I I think it's right to tell you as
03:12:31 but I I think it's right to tell you as I'm sure you understand that term this term is gonna have to ask you questions about it what comes next now I'm gonna make a suggestion mr. chairman and that is that before mr.
03:12:42 chairman and that is that before mr. video comes back we you come in and I will then read aloud it to the record this short passage from mr. video statement I think it is important that it gets read aloud so that the questions
03:12:53 it gets read aloud so that the questions that I then ask him after that are under some reason I understood publicly yes and then mr. video he come back in and we can carry on he of course knows what's in his statement he does though I
03:13:05 what's in his statement he does though I said we would all be in the same position when you start asking us yes if that's acceptable to you and to the witness I think that is a sensible course yes Thank You mr. video there's one other thing just stated before we break this is the first time we're gonna
03:13:19 break this is the first time we're gonna have a long break in your evidence can I ask you please not to talk about your evidence or any of these aspects of the fire until you finish giving your evidence before I hope you later on this
03:13:30 evidence before I hope you later on this afternoon
03:13:30 afternoon all right we're going to leave us now again with the our show please
03:13:45 [Music] thank you - clock please