Firefighter David Badillo gives emotional testimony about his rescue attempt to reach Jessica, a 12-year-old girl trapped on the 20th floor. His account reveals critical failings in radio communications, lack of evacuation guidance, and the overwhelming conditions inside Grenfell Tower.
00:00:05 yes mr. millet mr. Chandler before we raise I said that I was going to be reading a short part of mr. firefighter videos statement into the record say
00:00:16 videos statement into the record say that everybody understands the questions that then follow and I didn't want to read it to him in his presence for reasons that were obvious can I just do that now then yes please do people have settled down he says I was stopped by a
00:00:30 settled down he says I was stopped by a lady this is on page 5 of 13 I was stopped by a lady who told me that her little sister was up on the 20th floor in flat 176 she said that her sister was
00:00:41 in flat 176 she said that her sister was 12 years old and called Jessica and that she was in the flat alone the lady asked me if she could go up with with me to get her she was in her late teens Hispanic looking and had black hair she
00:00:52 Hispanic looking and had black hair she was slim at about 5 foot foot tall she looked very distressed panicked and anxious I told her not to worry and that
00:01:03 anxious I told her not to worry and that I would go and get Jessica on my own as I didn't want to endanger her she then gave me the keys to the flat I decided that the quickest way to go and get Jessica would be to get in the lift and
00:01:16 Jessica would be to get in the lift and that I would be able to get to the 20th floor bring her down and then continue with what I was doing I had no idea what was going on outside and didn't think
00:01:27 was going on outside and didn't think that Jessica or myself would be in any immediate danger I just thought that the fire was on a couple of the lower floors and not a raging inferno I just wanted to go and
00:01:39 raging inferno I just wanted to go and get the little girl out of the flat as she was alone normal procedure would be to go with someone and not go above the fire floor unless it was a smoke-filled building and necessary to evacuate
00:01:51 building and necessary to evacuate people however I risk assess the situation but did not think that I was in danger I didn't tell anyone what I was doing as there was so much going on the radio was busy and by the time I had
00:02:03 the radio was busy and by the time I had found someone to tell I could have gotten the girl out I also thought that I would be told no but I was worried for the girl's safety I've read
00:02:16 worried for the girl's safety I've read that into the record it's now available on the transcript if anyone wants to read it it's also available in the witness statement that will be on the website if anybody wants to get back to that evidence it's now in and I'm going to proceed then with questions for
00:02:29 to proceed then with questions for firefighter Padilla say if he could be yes all right before you do I'm just wondering whether there any part of the next paragraph might be read I think I get I think I'll ask him about that or I
00:02:41 get I think I'll ask him about that or I think that's going to be much less distressing for him all right yes well until we ask him a name
00:03:52 all right mr. video you get hired to carry on yes thank you yes mr. minute firefighter video um before we we raised I had asked you to look at a part of your statement about a conversation you
00:04:04 your statement about a conversation you had with a lady about a little girl on the 20th floor we've looked to what you said in your statement we're not going to go back to it with you here but I just want to have just got some questions I want to ask you about it um
00:04:17 questions I want to ask you about it um at the time you had a conversation with a lady in the in the main entrance did you know what the dangers were higher up in the building no did you know which
00:04:32 in the building no did you know which floor the lady you spoke to had come from she came from outside she came from outside did she say to you which floor she'd come from she came from outside
00:04:45 she'd come from she came from outside she didn't come from inside the tower I see and did she give you a any kind of
00:04:57 see and did she give you a any kind of indication did you tell you what the conditions were like higher up in the tower No
00:05:10 did you know the lady personally I've got to know her personally since the fire yes and did the lady give you
00:05:22 fire yes and did the lady give you anything yes some case to the flap to 176 she said did she say 176 yes did she say which floor it was yes
00:05:34 yes did she say which floor it was yes from what did you do next I am I decided to go up and try and get to the 20th floor to go little sister
00:05:46 to the 20th floor to go little sister and how did you what means of transport did you take look quickest what was possible which was jumping in a lift and
00:05:59 possible which was jumping in a lift and I think we know from your statement that you didn't tell anybody you were going up there is that right yes okay and I
00:06:11 up there is that right yes okay and I think you weren't wearing breathing apparatus either were you know did you take any equipment with you no sir no water no in a breathing apparatus no
00:06:25 water no in a breathing apparatus no water what did you imagine that the conditions would be like on the 20th floor up I still believe the fire was just on the fourth fifth and sixth floor okay so no one who told you by that
00:06:36 okay so no one who told you by that stage that it was at higher floors no is there any reason why so I have a key let me put this in a different way did you did you think about whether it might be sensible to go up with a buddy at the
00:06:51 sensible to go up with a buddy at the time no I am sort of distress on the lady's face and I just thought I'd get up there as quick as I can get the little girl down and then carry on with
00:07:03 little girl down and then carry on with what I've been doing right
00:07:10 and so you thought I think you've just said that the thought of fire whereas on the fourth fifth and sixth floors did you have any thoughts about why it would
00:07:22 you have any thoughts about why it would be necessary to evacuate somebody so many floors higher up in the building the 20th floor only from what her older sister tell me and did what did your
00:07:34 sister tell me and did what did your what did the girls older sister tell you about why it was necessary to fetch the little girl from the 20th floor because she was on her own and they were there
00:07:47 she was on her own and they were there was obviously a fire in the tower I see
00:07:56 did you have any thoughts about how for that little girl stay put might have been the best advice or or not the best advice did you have any thoughts one way or the other about that
00:08:07 or the other about that no it just um I didn't think about that now
00:08:11 now I just wanted to go up and go I said I said a little 12-yard girl wanna hope on their own and you know I just wanted to go and get around yeah
00:08:24 now we know you got into the lift and I'm not going to show you we do have a picture of you getting into the lift I think at 127 39 relying for the
00:08:38 think at 127 39 relying for the adjustment I take it from me that that is the photograph and as you want to sit and are you happy to see a photograph that's fine yeah okay can he please be shown CCTV which
00:08:50 okay can he please be shown CCTV which is tap 9 and the CCTV bundle on its iron q50 is 1:03 that is a photograph of what
00:09:03 q50 is 1:03 that is a photograph of what we believe to be you firefighter potato going into the lift at about that time can you confirm that that's you do you think yeah yes yes and you say in your
00:09:15 think yeah yes yes and you say in your statement that the lift you haven't got into it stopped at the 15th floor is that right that's correct what what happened next
00:09:27 the doors open and I think rush of black smoke filled the lift a rush of black smoke filled the lift and and what did
00:09:40 smoke filled the lift and and what did you what did you make of that what did you think of that there I'm in trouble with
00:09:51 the first thought was I'm in trouble here
00:09:54 here yes but what did you do immediately after having had that thought tried to find my way out so what did you do
00:10:08 felt around help my breath and walk forwards to where I thought the door was to the lobby did a stairwell right so
00:10:25 to the lobby did a stairwell right so you got out of the lift yes could you could you offer could you not I'm scared to say exploring that was there an option to accept and go back down again in the lift no cuz the lifts filled with
00:10:39 in the lift no cuz the lifts filled with black smoke so I wouldn't have been able to breathe in the lift no I see and
00:10:47 didn't apart from thoughts about getting out of there did you have any thoughts at all about the extent of fire and
00:10:58 at all about the extent of fire and smoke spread in the building at that point and you were confronted with this wall of black smoke coming into the lift and you got out of the lift - do you have any any thoughts about the extent
00:11:10 have any any thoughts about the extent of the smoke and fire spread in the building at that exact moment when I can't breathe and I can't see and I'm no not until I escaped out of that Lobby
00:11:27 and an S is a slightly unrealistic question to ask being confronted with that amount of smoke but did you know did you have any thoughts about what the smoke and fire spread might be like on the 20th floor which is where you were
00:11:38 the 20th floor which is where you were going that that didn't enter my thoughts at the time no no and I think in your
00:11:51 at the time no no and I think in your statement to summarize it you say that you've found your way back into the stairwell and you ran back downstairs is that right yes did you see any firefighters on your
00:12:02 yes did you see any firefighters on your way down I don't believe I did until I got down quite low to the bridge yet what were the conditions like in the stairwell when you got into the
00:12:14 stairwell when you got into the stairwell at the 15th floor level I believe it was um just some light wispy smoke it was smoky but not not like it
00:12:25 smoke it was smoky but not not like it was in the lobby right was it breathable air yes it was and on your passage shall wait for your route down the stairs from the 15th floor did the air get better or
00:12:39 the 15th floor did the air get better or worse all that did it stay the same I don't really remember I just remember
00:12:46 getting onto this getting into the stairwell that relief and then thinking I need to go and get my breathing apparatus up and get back up and get
00:12:59 apparatus up and get back up and get Jessica how long do you think just guess a nice estimate I prefer to use the word estimate do you think it took to you to run down the stairs from the 15th floor
00:13:11 run down the stairs from the 15th floor to the bridge head I don't know No did you encounter any other occupants of the building on your way down they don't know you didn't I don't believe so
00:13:22 don't know you didn't I don't believe so no when you got to the bridgehead did you speak to anybody I can't remember okay I think you can get back into your
00:13:38 okay I think you can get back into your statement then go to page go to page six at the top of the page in the third line
00:13:51 you say when I got to the bridgehead I
00:13:56 saw Alex and said that the 15th was alight I continued walking and out on the walkway doing the best you can with
00:14:09 the walkway doing the best you can with your memory did you say anything else to Alex
00:14:11 Alex I don't remember saying that I am fine actually have a remember right in right in there all right so there's a few
00:14:22 in there all right so there's a few blanks from that period it sir okay yeah so seeing this in your witness statements yeah it that's that corrected it no no does bring sort of bring back a
00:14:33 it no no does bring sort of bring back a memory that I've did speak to Alex yeah and can you remember I think that having having brought back this memory what you said to him I think it was that and then
00:14:48 said to him I think it was that and then I it was literally on passing yeah so I'm sorry to try to pick this apart but and you say what the 15th was a light
00:15:00 and you say what the 15th was a light did you were your thoughts at the time that there wasn't just smoke on the 15th floor but there was actually far on the 15th floor I I can't can't be certain if
00:15:12 15th floor I I can't can't be certain if if I said it was a light off over or if it's full of smoke okay might have even said it was the 15th is compromised that I don't really know but did you say do
00:15:23 I don't really know but did you say do you remember telling him 15th yes okay
00:15:32 during that conversation with Alex and Alban did he pass or did you see or hear him pass the information you had given him on to anybody else I didn't I
00:15:44 him on to anybody else I didn't I literally am sort of shouted to him in passing and I'm carried on monitor to outside do you remember who else was at the bridgehead with him when he was when
00:15:55 the bridgehead with him when he was when you were having that conversation with him when you shouted at him I don't know
00:16:04 no and it's difficult to reconstruct these things looking back yeah doing the best you can with your memory but doing the best you can did you have any thoughts at the time about whether the compartment ation of the tower was was
00:16:17 compartment ation of the tower was was holding up or whether it had failed at the time I thought something's not right
00:16:29 the time I thought something's not right here
00:16:29 here I didn't think about compartment a ssin I was thinking about going to rescue a little girl that wasn't that wasn't in my thoughts now
00:16:42 I think you've given us a pretty clear picture of the exchange between you and Alex doesn't open but did Alex doesn't open to say anything to you sorry
00:16:57 open to say anything to you sorry did he say to you what are you doing on the 15th floor did he say that no do you recall
00:17:08 no do you recall watch manager O'Keefe talking to you that time What did he say not much
00:17:17 not much he um he literally saw me and sort of called me just shouted Dave to beckoned
00:17:32 called me just shouted Dave to beckoned me over and I am I told him I'm in the middle of doing something else okay yes was he
00:17:44 okay yes was he watch manager at Keefe at the bridgehead at that point I believe he was on the walkway just above the lobby area right was he moving in a direction or was he
00:17:55 was he moving in a direction or was he standing there I I don't remember okay I just remember him being on the glass walkway just above the lobby area okay and you said you were doing something
00:18:07 and you said you were doing something else did you tell him what you were doing
00:18:09 doing no did he ask you know
00:18:15 did you tell him about what you've seen on the 15th floor I don't think so
00:18:23 you got that I think you got back down to the lobby next is that right yes what
00:18:34 to the lobby next is that right yes what were the conditions like in the lobby when you got down to the lobby yes as I can remember it's it was clipped clear out the leaf and did you see the lady
00:18:48 out the leaf and did you see the lady who told you about flat 176 and giving you the keys no in your statement I think you say in the last part of the
00:19:02 think you say in the last part of the first paragraph on page six I was thinking that I needed to get up get back up to look for Jessica as the fire was looking more dangerous would it be
00:19:17 was looking more dangerous would it be right to say that you are on a personal rescue mission yeah
00:19:28 did you did you think that Jessica was unsafe after I'd been in the 15th floor lobby I yes and even more so when I went
00:19:42 lobby I yes and even more so when I went outside did you share your thoughts about her safety with anybody else
00:19:54 at that stage yes no can I ask a delicate question dude do you know why you didn't share your thoughts with
00:20:07 you didn't share your thoughts with anybody else about Jessica's safety at that point at that point at that stage I was going to get my BA set to perform
00:20:21 was going to get my BA set to perform the rescue myself with another any other firefighter I could find and um that was my thoughts at the time did you have any
00:20:34 my thoughts at the time did you have any thoughts about the safety of any other residents in the building based on what you'd seen about the smoke on the 15th floor yes you did did you share those thoughts with anybody not at the time that once I got
00:20:47 anybody not at the time that once I got outside I did you did I once he got outside who what what did you who did you speak to once you got outside about that I saw my watch manager watchman is a Dowden on the corner of the tower as I
00:21:04 a Dowden on the corner of the tower as I approached him I looked up to the tower and one whole side of the building was it like and I approached him I believe I
00:21:19 it like and I approached him I believe I told him where I'd been and looking at the side of the building I am asked him cuz I've been in the tower the whole
00:21:31 cuz I've been in the tower the whole time I didn't even know I didn't know how many machines were there so I asked him if he had made him up meaning had he got more firefighters and more fire
00:21:42 got more firefighters and more fire engines here do the job and what does he say he said it just made pumps xx did you respond yeah I told him that we um
00:21:54 you respond yeah I told him that we um we're gonna need more people did he respond to that
00:22:00 at the time he was doing a lot of different things I could see the look in his face and he is sort of it was half running off at the time and he pointed
00:22:12 running off at the time and he pointed to the Machine and said go and then what did you do I rented a machine and I make pumps 25 you made those faithful with
00:22:23 pumps 25 you made those faithful with which machine do you remember Gulf 271 North Kansas bladder and during that conversation you say you believed you
00:22:35 conversation you say you believed you told him about the conditions on the 15th floor did you think at the time that Mike down had heard your message and understood it yes
00:22:49 and understood it yes what made you think that the the fact that he allowed me to or the fact that
00:23:02 that he allowed me to or the fact that he pointed to the Machine and said go on then after I'd explained where I've been I see
00:23:11 I see so did you assume that having given him the message about the 15th floor conditions he would do something about it
00:23:23 I don't understand a question and we try and get it this a different way he said you went off to make pumps 25 from the incident command / 271 having given him
00:23:37 incident command / 271 having given him the information about the conditions on the 15th floor is that right yes what did you think at that time he he if anything was going to do about the conditions on the 15th floor that you
00:23:49 conditions on the 15th floor that you had told him about at the time I had
00:24:02 had told him about at the time I had quite a lot of my quite a lot of thoughts in my head I just come out of a smoke-filled room I've run down the stairs and this was the first time I'd seen the outsider to
00:24:13 the first time I'd seen the outsider to tell her and it was a quick conversation just telling him I whatever he had told me however many fire engines were there I would have said we needed more and and
00:24:27 I would have said we needed more and and then I that was my thoughts and then the rest of my thoughts were to go and get Jessica in your statement at page 6 you
00:24:38 Jessica in your statement at page 6 you describe what you saw and you say in the second line I then looked up at the tower and saw that the fire was now 3/4 of the way up the building I do you feel
00:24:52 of the way up the building I do you feel able to tell us about what you saw Costigan Lineback yeah the fire was seemed to be following
00:25:04 the fire was seemed to be following paths it was going up it's going sideways it was um it was like it was following like like I said in the state when it was like someone had poured
00:25:15 when it was like someone had poured petrol down the side of the building and it was following the paths of the petrol
00:25:26 and it was envisioned it had this fizzing like at us said at time it's like a sparkler sound it was really fittings and something I've not really
00:25:37 fittings and something I've not really seen before well that's definitely not seen before and you say it was moving you say we say it was three-quarters of the way up the building was it was it moving was it progressing as I remember
00:25:50 moving was it progressing as I remember yes and what sort of speed was it progressing do you remember no what was your reaction shock
00:26:09 yeah just um shock and horror and it's just it was nothing I've never seen before
00:26:20 before you then halfway down page six say I wondered how we were going to stop the fire and that we would have to work hard to do so as it was getting out of
00:26:31 to do so as it was getting out of control
00:26:36 did you have a conversation with anybody about those thoughts how you how you were going to stop the fire and your view that it was getting out of control
00:26:48 view that it was getting out of control did you share that with anybody my thoughts at that time was to go back up and get Jessica
00:27:04 and having made let me just get this clay you you were the one who I think send the message make pumps 25 from g27 one correct and what did you think the
00:27:23 one correct and what did you think the plan was to do with all those pumps when they arrived
00:27:35 at the time get as many people there to get as many people out as we could so
00:27:46 get as many people out as we could so your thoughts were on evacuation is that right yes and how okay is following that up how did you think you were going to get everybody out of that building at
00:28:04 get everybody out of that building at the time you're like I said I was thinking about getting Jessica out and and get it and making pumps 25 was
00:28:16 and get it and making pumps 25 was getting as many people there as we can to get everybody out to get everybody out okay there's mr. Padilla would you like a break no I'm fine
00:28:27 like a break no I'm fine you sure yes okay we can carry on as soon as you want a break thank you we can't we can do that so your thoughts were to get everybody out did you share those thoughts with Mike Davin no do you
00:28:40 those thoughts with Mike Davin no do you share them with anybody no not at the time no no
00:28:50 in your conversation about the 15th floor with Mike Dunn did you tell him about Jessica in particular I don't think I did you don't think I did and then you say that we can summarize I
00:29:03 then you say that we can summarize I think will you say in your statement you collected your BA and then when made your way back to the tower so you collect your PA from g27 one was it yes did you take any other equipment no
00:29:19 yes did you take any other equipment no and then you say you say towards the bottom of page 6 of your statement I
00:29:35 bottom of page 6 of your statement I then put on my BA kit and made my way back into the tower and as I got into the lobby
00:29:40 the lobby I met a firefighter from Paddington I explained what I knew about Jessica and and said that I needed someone to go up with me and he said he would assist do
00:29:54 with me and he said he would assist do you remember who that firefighting from Paddington was his name's Jim but Jim yes it's it's wolf and something will
00:30:05 yes it's it's wolf and something will hundun wolf and then it could be yeah okay so James I think James Wolfensohn is a name we'll know all right
00:30:16 and you say in the next sentence well you say that sentence I explained what I knew about Jessica but what did you tell him can Europe do you remember just as
00:30:29 him can Europe do you remember just as she was on on the 20th floor and I was going up to get her and could he come with me did you tell him about the conditions that you had encountered on the 15th floor I might have told him
00:30:42 the 15th floor I might have told him that I'd already been to the 15th was he in BA he had maybe I'd set on his back and then you say when we got to the
00:30:53 and then you say when we got to the bridgehead just looking at the last paragraph on that page in your in your statement when we got to the bridgehead we bypassed the cue to be a control and saw Chris secret and Chris dog ooh and
00:31:07 saw Chris secret and Chris dog ooh and just pausing there do you remember what they were doing they were at me I entered control waiting to be committed
00:31:23 and where they'd never be front of the queue or yes and at that point do you remember who was running the PA entry control I believe Alex was
00:31:34 control I believe Alex was I don't can't remember who was with him and by that point who was in charge of the bridgehead do you remember no
00:31:48 could you describe what it was like at the bridgehead at that point in terms of people crowds at that time I just remember Q of BA whereas waitin to get
00:32:00 remember Q of BA whereas waitin to get their instructions to go up into the tower okay can you think the best you can with with your old memory just give us a picture of that you've got the BA entry boards
00:32:13 of that you've got the BA entry boards and they're somber the landing in the stairway I think at the live act level two is that right was in the lobby I believe it the BA people were actually
00:32:25 I believe it the BA people were actually on the raised level of the lobby and that was sort of a holding place what I remember cuz I remember passing a lot of them as I went up the first set of steps okay I was going to ask you so where did
00:32:38 okay I was going to ask you so where did it say presumably the BA where is what formed an orderly queue today as orderly as you can in a in a towering inferno yeah yes and where did the queue how did
00:32:53 yeah yes and where did the queue how did the queue go did it did it extend down the stairs up to the second floor landing in the stairs or I believe sir okay so to join the back of the queue you have to come up the stairs at you
00:33:04 you have to come up the stairs at you and then stand at the back of the queue and then as the queue progressed you'd move up the stairs and then go through ba control that's how believe how it was working here and then go on up above up the stairs above the level to landing up
00:33:20 the stairs above the level to landing up set of bridgehead on level 2 yes isn't it once you were committed from the bridgehead on level 2 you'd then go what up the stairs above level 2 and into the building you go where your top tasks to
00:33:33 building you go where your top tasks to goings sure and and at that time what was the the what were the conditions like in terms of the air quality at the bridgehead at that point from what I can
00:33:45 bridgehead at that point from what I can remember it was still clear doctor and in terms of the lighting in the stairway stairwell what was that like in the bridgehead yes I remember it being
00:33:59 the bridgehead yes I remember it being clear you could see you can see and the light was electric light was there and were the emergency lower these stairwell electric lights on there was in the
00:34:12 electric lights on there was in the stairwell there were these oval oval lights which were remember and being above the number for the floor yes no
00:34:26 above the number for the floor yes no that's interesting they were above the number of the floor today the number of the floor to be shown clearly to start with to start with until the stairwell
00:34:41 with to start with until the stairwell filled with smoke does tell for the smoke okay they were on the way up and you met as you say crew manager secret
00:34:57 you met as you say crew manager secret and firefighter dog ooh at the bridgehead and you bypass the critic the cue and then you say the very bottom of page six in your statement a line up
00:35:09 page six in your statement a line up from the bottom you say i briefed them and they said they would go up with me instead of the firefighter from Paddington and when you say i briefed them do you remember what you told them
00:35:23 them do you remember what you told them what I mean by that is they've they've probably seen me coming up the stairs getting ready to go and do something and
00:35:34 getting ready to go and do something and they've asked me because they're my crew what you're doing Dave where you going and I've told him and they said we're going with you okay let's just just break this down a little bit first of
00:35:46 break this down a little bit first of all did you did you have a discussion with them about what you've seen on the 15th floor on your trip into the tower before this time I can't remember if I
00:35:57 before this time I can't remember if I did okay and did you tell them about where you were going yes can you remember what you told them that there's a girl trapped on the 20th
00:36:13 that there's a girl trapped on the 20th floor I've got the keys to her flat I don't need to go and get flat 176 okay did you have a discussion with either of
00:36:25 did you have a discussion with either of them or both of them about what you thought the conditions up there might be like I don't remember now I'm going to
00:36:40 like I don't remember now I'm going to show you your tally out time in a moment just to put her of time fix all this for you and for emanager secret and for firefighter doggy before I do can I ask
00:36:52 firefighter doggy before I do can I ask you this um could you see at the bridgehead anybody writing things on the wall I didn't see anyone at that stage
00:37:07 wall I didn't see anyone at that stage now did you did you see or hear of anybody at the bridgehead receiving fire survival guidance call information no
00:37:18 survival guidance call information no that's no I didn't know did you see or hear anybody at the bridgehead talking about fire survival Gardens information that they were getting no
00:37:34 can I ask you please to go
00:37:42 - this is tam-tam one of the bundle it's the BBA it's a bit to be a telemetry spreadsheet and it's lfb quadruple zero
00:37:54 spreadsheet and it's lfb quadruple zero three one one five and let's just have that up on the screen mister mister
00:38:06 that up on the screen mister mister video I should just tell you what this this rather frightening looking document is um it was produced recently by the London I've seen it yeah I should have asked you that okay good
00:38:19 asked you that okay good say can I then just look at it with you and draw your attention through the documents manager to the first two well
00:38:32 documents manager to the first two well first three entries in the second chunk under PA timeline - and you'll see they're like in the light blue your name Badillo David
00:38:45 light blue your name Badillo David secret Christopher dog ooh Christopher you see that yes and you've been banded together in the light blue because you were a trio [ __ ] bit of that way and
00:38:56 were a trio [ __ ] bit of that way and if you go across the page to tally out
00:39:02 the computer data has you tallying out at 1 33 33 and secret at 13424 I'm sorry
00:39:18 at 1 33 33 and secret at 13424 I'm sorry 135 57 and dog you at 130 500 won
00:39:28 today's times they're roughly correspond with your your memory of the events on the night I didn't have a clue about any kind of time at okay on that night just
00:39:43 kind of time at okay on that night just too so we don't have to come back to this document again but just to give you a fix on where we are in terms of what this data shows in timing terms if you go across the page you'll see that tallien - bodyguard for
00:39:54 you'll see that tallien - bodyguard for you is recorded a oh one 5815 so you've
00:40:05 you is recorded a oh one 5815 so you've been up in the tower some twenty five minutes or so under PA would that be
00:40:16 minutes or so under PA would that be about right the lfp operational response report that they brought out also shows me on the seventh floor at two o'clock I
00:40:30 me on the seventh floor at two o'clock I know it does and that's I think something like what which I believe I was you were yes so you so I don't believe that's correct accounts gonna come back to that later on but but perhaps we can deal with that
00:40:42 on but but perhaps we can deal with that now if you go to the operational response report let's just have it there two o'clock it's page eighty not page 89
00:41:02 I just want to get a fix on this it says there two o'clock or roughly two o'clock which is why it's in italics at around this time firefighter Murphy from B 1810
00:41:14 this time firefighter Murphy from B 1810 meets firefighter Padilla from B 18 5 on the seventh floor firefighter Murphy says it's difficult to identify floor numbers so firefighter video shows him where they're located
00:41:25 video shows him where they're located but acknowledges the difficulty and then there's something about the juice breathing rate for both where is consistent with these actions do you think that's correct I don't and why do
00:41:36 think that's correct I don't and why do you think that's correct cuz that happened because that happened did it happen around that time I oh sorry I I know that happened but I don't
00:41:48 sorry I I know that happened but I don't like I said before I don't know what time it was I've got it right okay when I come back to the happenings
00:42:13 if you go to the top of page seven of your statement you say I don't know
00:42:24 your statement you say I don't know where the guy from Paddington went but the three of us went and spoke to PA control and informed them what we were doing the information was logged onto the PA board what floor we were going to the fact
00:42:35 what floor we were going to the fact that we were completing a rescue and that Chris dog who was on comms
00:42:47 yeah III think I've asked you this question but I think you don't know the answer but who was manning the Android control at that time I know firefighter the--some Alban was on the board I don't
00:42:59 the--some Alban was on the board I don't know who was in charge of okay and when you say you spoke to be a control was it Alex doesn't all been that you think you
00:43:10 Alex doesn't all been that you think you spoke to I believe I that was a case yes did what did you tell them that we were going up to the 20 20th floor to
00:43:23 going up to the 20 20th floor to performer to get girlf and we had the case and we did that was the task wheels you need the who did the
00:43:34 the task wheels you need the who did the talking to do the talking yes so you told Alex doesn't oven that you were going to the 20th floor and you have the keys did you tell him the flat number you were going to yes did he record that anywhere yes where
00:43:48 did he record that anywhere yes where did he record that on the PA pod on the be a board do you remember whether he communicated what you told him about where you were going to anybody outside
00:44:00 where you were going to anybody outside the bridgehead or outside the building or anywhere else I don't know you don't
00:44:11 you then you say that Chris dog who was on comms that I'm seen means he had a radio
00:44:18 radio well that means Barry means Barry he I believe that but I've since found out that he didn't have cut okay when you
00:44:30 that he didn't have cut okay when you did your statement why did you think that he had coms because when we was up on the 20th floor I remember Chris was trying to send messages back to the beachhead and I I
00:44:46 messages back to the beachhead and I I thought he was doing that via his very set but I've since found out he was doing it by his own handheld radio okay did you have comms did you have a handheld radio I had a handheld radio
00:44:58 handheld radio I had a handheld radio did you ever Barry no what about crew manager secret no no Barry what about anthill radio yes but so you then say we handed in our tallies and made our way
00:45:10 handed in our tallies and made our way to the second lift they were carrying a length of hose each and a branch between them were you carrying anything no
00:45:32 were you aware at the point you left the bridgehead to go up into the building to the 20th floor of a fire survival
00:45:43 the 20th floor of a fire survival guidance call coming in for a 12 year old girl no now mr. secret says in his
00:45:55 old girl no now mr. secret says in his statement then I'll get to ask it we'd be game for 45 minutes so before I move on to these questions would you would you like a break you fine okay thank you
00:46:06 you like a break you fine okay thank you can I suggest we have a breaking any events that bad it's three o'clock yes mr. chairman a problem we're talking now mr. secret crew manager secret says in
00:46:18 mr. secret crew manager secret says in his statement and I always say penny witness that anything anybody else says in their state was we will it be exploring with them in their evidence when they come if we can that he knew
00:46:30 when they come if we can that he knew that a fast survival guidance call had come and was in progress for a twelve-year-old girl stuck on the 20th floor did he did he discuss that with
00:46:44 floor did he did he discuss that with you no that's the first time I've heard that
00:46:47 that okay
00:47:06 he says that he and firefighter dog ooh took that call you know that you were there and said that someone had given you the keys to the 22 the flat with the
00:47:19 you the keys to the 22 the flat with the 12 year old girl in on the 20th floor so do you remember anything about firefighter dog ooh and crew manager
00:47:31 firefighter dog ooh and crew manager secret taking a far survival guidance call if they did it would have been before I got to them see I think you're these things you didn't know about no okay he says that
00:47:46 didn't know about no okay he says that he told watch manager O'Keefe that you were you all three of you were going to the 20th floor that's what he says about
00:47:58 the 20th floor that's what he says about who was I think in charge of the bridgehead does that does that trigger a recollection for you know okay
00:48:12 so is it right your clear understanding is that the floor you were going to was the 20th floor tonight if 12 flat 176
00:48:23 the 20th floor tonight if 12 flat 176 did anybody ever suggest to you at that stage I say ever did anybody tell you at that stage that the floor she was on was the 23rd floor
00:48:38 were you told that Jessica was connected to the 999 operator at helmet
00:48:51 if you had been told not to go to the 20th floor but to go to the 20th third floor 23rd floor what would you have done
00:49:00 done can you have been a question yeah if you had been told that Jessica was in flat 205 on the 23rd floor what would you have done we'd have gotten up to 205
00:49:13 have done we'd have gotten up to 205 this general I do you think we may take a break yes but let's do that and we probably want to have a slightly longer break Jenny again we took 15 minutes
00:49:27 break Jenny again we took 15 minutes with that okay that's all right mr. video it's really difficult for you I quite understand that
00:49:51 when you feel ready you go with the usher and she'll take you out to the retiring room but there's no rush
00:50:13 to
00:50:24 all right
00:50:42 right we'll break and resume at five past three please
00:50:55 you
01:08:49 yes mr. millet I have mr. Chanin before the witness rejoins us can I just make a correction to the transcript which needs
01:09:00 correction to the transcript which needs to be made as a result of an error I made in the last question the whole series of questions at lines currently lines 15 to 25 of what is currently
01:09:12 lines 15 to 25 of what is currently being shown as page 147 of the transcript ira flirt I referred firefighter video to flat 205 what I meant to do was to refer to flat 201 say
01:09:26 meant to do was to refer to flat 201 say with your permission mr. mr. chairman if I can pass the transcribers to correct the transcript and read the question in that light I don't want to have to put the question again to the witness I
01:09:37 the question again to the witness I would already do so but given his situation I did think it's fair yes no well I think if transcript can be corrected on that basis thank you I'm very grateful if we can then have the
01:09:48 very grateful if we can then have the witness back please yes
01:10:09 all right mr. video you can chase carrion yes thank you very much yes this video thank you for coming back I'm going to ask you some questions about
01:10:21 going to ask you some questions about your trip to the 20th floor and back again
01:10:24 again are you okay with that yes okay on your way up from the bridge head to the 20th
01:10:35 way up from the bridge head to the 20th floor you describe how the lifts open to the eighth floor do you remember that yes what can you describe for us what happened at st. saw the same thing that
01:10:47 happened at st. saw the same thing that happened on the 15 feet the lift field of smoke I don't know whether it was because we were wearing I was wearing brave interpreters or but it didn't feel
01:11:01 brave interpreters or but it didn't feel like as much of a shock to me you know I was honest yes but that could have been because I could breathe with my breathing operator do you know why the
01:11:13 breathing operator do you know why the lift opened to the 8th floor no now firefighter dog GU says it was the 8th floor like you do firefighter secret says it's there was a sixth floor
01:11:24 secret says it's there was a sixth floor can you comment on the difference between you do you know how quickly the
01:11:36 between you do you know how quickly the lift doors shut again after you saw the smoke we we got out of the lift you got out of the lift yes and you got into the
01:11:47 out of the lift yes and you got into the 8th floor lobby did you yes can you describe the smoke in the 8th floor lobby for us you say in your statement it was full of smoke in the 7th line on page 7 as we can see it seventh line
01:12:02 page 7 as we can see it seventh line page 7 you say the lobby was compromised and full of smoke can you describe the smoke for us from what I remember [Music]
01:12:13 [Music] it was full of smoke but there was still some visibility I didn't have to search around to get out of that Lobby and what color was the smoke did you sorry I'm
01:12:32 color was the smoke did you sorry I'm not sure I can't remember but it wasn't this
01:12:35 this darkest when I went up on the 15th and did any of you that's you
01:12:46 did any of you that's you firefighter daughter or crew manager secret did either any wire or any of you radio down about what the conditions were that you'd seen on the 8th floor
01:12:57 were that you'd seen on the 8th floor lobby I know I didn't I I can't remember if the other two did okay
01:13:08 and what about heat did you experience any particular heat in the lobby on the 8th floor not really no not really did you see any fire there no did you
01:13:24 you see any fire there no did you yourself have any thoughts about whether you should knock on any of the doors of the flats of the 8th floor and alert the occupants not at that time though when
01:13:36 occupants not at that time though when you're given a task as a firefighter this that's what you do I know I gave myself the task but that's what I was doing you say you made your
01:13:47 what I was doing you say you made your way to the stairwell you say 8 lines down 4 top maybe 9 lines there wasn't any noise but as we were talking it wasn't so eerily quiet
01:13:58 wasn't so eerily quiet Kri manager secret decided that we would take the stairs and we made our way to the stairwell which was full of wispy smoke but it wasn't too hot
01:14:12 and then you say I had a bit of an adrenaline rush and got to the 20th floor before the others who were a couple of floors behind
01:14:24 can you describe and it may be difficult because you were going up perhaps more quickly than they were week first what were you running up the stairs probably it's Chuck yeah a jog
01:14:38 it's Chuck yeah a jog can you explain or describe to the Chairman and everybody here what it must be like jogging up stairs in be a kid
01:14:52 quite difficult but like I said at the time I was focused on getting to Jessica especially after I'd seen the outside of the building and I just wanted to get it
01:15:07 the building and I just wanted to get it out up there as quick as I could okay could you give us an idea of what a at the standard duration breathing apparatus pack weighs I'm not sure it's
01:15:19 apparatus pack weighs I'm not sure it's it I'm not sure how many kilograms
01:15:27 it's about 15 kilograms and I told was that be about right yeah and on your journey up the building from the 8th to
01:15:40 journey up the building from the 8th to the 20th floor in the stairwell can you describe the conditions of the air in the stairwell as you went up from what I remember it was getting thicker the the
01:15:52 remember it was getting thicker the the further we went up the tower what the smoke was yes and stickin but and what about the visibility was that getting more difficult um on the stairwell I can
01:16:07 more difficult um on the stairwell I can remember visibility was okay right up to the 20th because because when I got up to the 20th I looked into the lobby which was no visit no visibility at all
01:16:21 which was no visit no visibility at all so it was it was different yeah
01:16:30 could you tow it tell me how easy it was to keep count of the floor numbers as he went on up
01:16:44 I wasn't I don't think I was counting if you weren't counting how would you know when you got to the 20th floor some some
01:16:57 when you got to the 20th floor some some of the floors floors were written in stencils oh no I'm so remember thinking it's really strange stump some were just
01:17:08 it's really strange stump some were just scribbled in felt-tip pen like they had been scribbled by the residents really scribbled by scribble yeah there's a
01:17:19 scribbled by scribble yeah there's a vivid memory I had and a newly refurbished building and Devon you've got floor numbers written on there on the floors some of them whether within that where
01:17:35 some of them whether within that where their floors were there was no number do you remember I don't remember but I vividly remember some scribbled floor numbers did you put up now I can do this
01:17:53 numbers did you put up now I can do this if you look at your statement if you do this by reference to your statement you
01:18:00 say about a third of the way down the page page seven I was able to identify the 20th floor but I cannot remember if
01:18:11 the 20th floor but I cannot remember if the floor never was stenciled on or written on the wall in felt-tip as this vary between the floors and you've given evidence about that and then you say
01:18:22 whilst waiting I had a quick look inside the 20th floor lobby by opening the door but it was filled with smoke so close it again
01:18:29 again so as not to compromise the stairwell the stairwell wasn't brightly lit but we were able to see each other and then you say we did not pass anyone between the 8th and the 20th floor
01:18:46 when you say you didn't pass anyone on the way up from the 8th to the 20th floor did that include firefighters yes so is it right you then your recollection is that the stairwell was
01:18:58 recollection is that the stairwell was completely empty of people yes on your journey did you have any thoughts about what might be happening to the occupants on those higher floors at that at that
01:19:17 on those higher floors at that at that moment in time like I've said I was focused on getting too flat 176 to get there look out did you it may be that
01:19:28 there look out did you it may be that you've already answered this but did you check in any of the lobbies on the way up to see if no my my focus was to get up to flat 7 6 as fast as I could
01:19:41 did you form an impression of how well the stair doors were doing to keep smoke out of the stairwell at that point I didn't think about that at the time
01:19:53 didn't think about that at the time though ok
01:19:59 when you got to the 20th floor did you have any impression about what the heat was like mr. video I used comfortable answering questions at the moment yes
01:20:15 can I can I just repeat the question when you got to the 20th floor did you do you remember have any having any thoughts about what the heat was like there it didn't feel that hot at the
01:20:30 there it didn't feel that hot at the time it felt warm the fact that I just ran up quite a few flights of stairs with Michael if I again breathing apparatus on I was hot yeah yes
01:20:42 apparatus on I was hot yeah yes it was bad wasn't radiated heat so it didn't fill okay and I think you say in summarizing here the others came up behind you
01:20:53 behind you dog ooh in secret and then he went into the lobby yes and you described the lobby halfway down the page you say we entered we just had that up on the
01:21:06 entered we just had that up on the screen half way down page seven we entered the 20th floor and the smoke was so thick I couldn't see my hand in front of my face
01:21:20 how could you move around the lobby if you couldn't see I feel I feel did you have a torch yes did you use it yes what was that
01:21:32 yes did you use it yes what was that like
01:21:33 like did it help just could see a light in the in the smoke how far to the light so it was sort of making the black smoke in front it what you was looking at making
01:21:46 front it what you was looking at making it a bit lighter but okay and what about heat in the lobby what was that like at
01:21:59 heat in the lobby what was that like at that time I it it wasn't too hot as I remember
01:22:12 and then you describe the rest of that paragraph on page seven your entry into flat 176
01:22:27 who went in first do you remember I think I did giving you did it would be meal crew manager secret you say just before the paragraph break
01:22:40 you say just before the paragraph break near the foot of the page make seven inside the flat visibility was low to hardly anything it was smoke logged completely and I am unsure if any lights were on
01:22:49 were on it was hot inside the flat but it didn't feel like there was a fire inside can you describe how you went about
01:23:01 you describe how you went about searching each room yeah we um I took the right-hand wall it's a procedure we
01:23:13 the right-hand wall it's a procedure we use if you if you can't see anything you stick to a wall so if anything happens you've followed that wall back out and once you get to a door you search that
01:23:26 once you get to a door you search that compartment and then you come out sticking to the right-hand wall and you go to the next compartment until you've searched everywhere and in
01:23:38 until you've searched everywhere and in the last paragraph you say in the second room I reached I could see an orange curtain of flames at the window but they appeared to still be on the outside now
01:23:49 appeared to still be on the outside now I just want to understand what the second room is so you go through just if we can walk this together you go through the front door of the flat and this is 176 it's it's it's immediately above
01:24:01 176 it's it's it's immediately above some floors of our flat 16 yes and as a is this right a room immediately in front of you and then you go down around the corridor to the right I've what do
01:24:14 the corridor to the right I've what do you remember
01:24:17 I've really you got so disorientated when you're you imagine you've got your eyes shut in your search in a flat okay
01:24:30 eyes shut in your search in a flat okay it's like I'm not even 100% sir and it was the second room I entered into but I know I entered into a room it was a
01:24:41 know I entered into a room it was a bigger room with a big window and the whole window was an orange flame on the outside
01:24:50 outside right do you remember from having gone into that room that the windows were on two sides of the room or on one side of the romaine leaf I don't remember actually and what were the conditions
01:25:01 actually and what were the conditions like inside the room it was it was starting to warm up we're starting to get hot was there any fire inside that room no not at that time though what
01:25:12 room no not at that time though what about the smoke inside that room there was smoke yes is there much smoke yes a lot of smoke
01:25:24 do you think at that point the fire on the outside had broken into that flat at that point when you were in that I don't believe so you then say in the next
01:25:39 believe so you then say in the next sentence it was very strange seeing it as I've never seen anything like that before on the outside when you say it seeing it
01:25:48 seeing it what are you describing being on the 20th floor of a tower block and seeing an orange flame on the outside of the window and then you say two bedrooms
01:25:59 window and then you say two bedrooms were found and next and I searched one room well Chris search the other concurrently it's maybe a silly question
01:26:11 concurrently it's maybe a silly question but what made you think it was a bedroom there was a bed in there I thought it was a silly question but it's a clear answer thank you and you then say swap dirt you swapped over in the next sentence in the next on
01:26:28 over in the next sentence in the next on the next page two lines down you say Chris suggested that we swap over just to be completely sure well you were shouting out the whole time did you see any fire and the windows of the other rooms you searched
01:26:47 and then you described how you came out of the flat you returned to the lobby area five lines seven lines down from
01:27:00 area five lines seven lines down from the top of page eight and you say we returned to the lobby area where Chris dog you was and he tried to send a message with an update but there were no
01:27:11 message with an update but there were no comms
01:27:24 did you
01:27:28 see him try and send that message no you didn't see him I've heard him you heard him try dis yes we couldn't see couldn't see each other can't see anything and when you say there were no cons as
01:27:41 and when you say there were no cons as in the radios weren't transmitting so there was no no response from any radio there was no noise on in the on the
01:27:53 there was no noise on in the on the radios so okay
01:27:57 say no noise is that what I think there was no no message is being sent so you would expect heavy radio traffic right could you hear anything from the radios
01:28:08 could you hear anything from the radios nothing at all okay
01:28:15 did you or anybody else in your group secret or do dog you search anywhere else on the 20th floor after we came out
01:28:26 else on the 20th floor after we came out of the flat Chris secrets warning whistle when of which goes off between about 70 bar you're meant to be out of
01:28:41 about 70 bar you're meant to be out of the dangerous situation by that stage and we was on the 20th floor with fire all around us so we we needed to get him
01:28:53 all around us so we we needed to get him out how soon after leaving flat 176 did the warning was them go off I can't be
01:29:04 the warning was them go off I can't be certain but it might have even gone off when we was inside the flat and I'm not sure in your statement you say again is
01:29:15 sure in your statement you say again is page eight but three or four lines up from the paragraph break you say Chris secrets warning whistle went off and we knew we had to get out as he here in he had sixty to seventy bar left I did a
01:29:28 had sixty to seventy bar left I did a gauge check and think I had about a hundred bar remaining and then you talk about policy and at the end you say it felt like we were trapped at that moment when you say you felt that you were
01:29:39 when you say you felt that you were trapped
01:29:40 trapped where were you were you still in flat 176 or did you come out on now we was in the lobby
01:29:46 the lobby you're in the lobby how long had you been in the lobby for when you realized you only had and you realize you had about a hundred bar remaining I'm not sure I believe it was the same sort of
01:29:57 sure I believe it was the same sort of time that Chris was trying to get hold of someone trying to send it radio signals did you have a discussion with Chris or either Chris I suppose secret
01:30:12 Chris or either Chris I suppose secret all double GU about looking for other residents in other flats on floor twenty at that stage like I said Chris secrets
01:30:24 at that stage like I said Chris secrets warning whistle was going off he had the limited time to actually go out that building to before is there completely ran out so we was in a
01:30:36 completely ran out so we was in a dangerous situation and it was more like we got to get him out the building you you had to get him out and what about Chris Dogu was his air situation I don't know okay would it would it have been
01:30:49 know okay would it would it have been possible
01:30:51 possible was it possible many but this way was it possible for Chris door GU to look for other people on that floor when you are
01:31:02 other people on that floor when you are in a be a team knew you stay together let's see it's you stay together if if I had taken Chris out crew managed to secret out then firefighter dog who is
01:31:14 secret out then firefighter dog who is then left on his own unless we never do that then you say halfway down page a to
01:31:25 that then you say halfway down page a to the break it was decided that we would leave and I started to lead the way out I found a door but when I opened it I realized that it was in fact the bin oh shoot this area was free from smoke and the door seemed more solid and newer
01:31:37 the door seemed more solid and newer than than the two that on the actual main door to the floor can you describe the heat inside the bin oh shoot what it
01:31:51 the heat inside the bin oh shoot what it was like I don't remember I just had this memory of being able to see inside the bench it was a really strange we're up on the 20th floor it's you know
01:32:04 up on the 20th floor it's you know nothing at all and then we went inside and it was sort of
01:32:13 we found the door it wasn't that it wasn't completely clear of smoke but you could all of a sudden as you got close
01:32:24 could all of a sudden as you got close to it you could see and as you went inside you could you could make out things inside there it was a clearer atmosphere than in the lobby area yes
01:32:36 atmosphere than in the lobby area yes thank you no you say in the same part of
01:32:48 thank you no you say in the same part of your statement same page I managed to lead us back into the stairwell and as we got a few flights down I suggested we leave our hoses and sit you as carrying them was slowing us down we left them by
01:33:02 them was slowing us down we left them by the wall so as not to block the stairs I think on the 18th floor the heat was much more intense and the stairwell was completely smoke-filled so visibility was really poor um just just unpacking
01:33:13 was really poor um just just unpacking them a little bit when you got out from the lobby on the 20th floor into the stairwell on the 20th floor what were the conditions like in the stairwell
01:33:24 the conditions like in the stairwell when we first got out of the 20th floor I remember being able to see more than in the actual lobby area but as soon as we started going down conditions got
01:33:38 we started going down conditions got worse started getting much much hotter and we couldn't see a thing are you able to help me with this comparison
01:33:52 to help me with this comparison comparing the air the clarity of the air inside the bin chute with the clarity of the air in the stairwell immediately outside the stair door at level 20 which
01:34:03 outside the stair door at level 20 which was the clearer which which air was clearer
01:34:09 I'll say it was probably about the same okay there was smoke but you could still I could see if one of the Chris's was
01:34:20 I could see if one of the Chris's was close to me I could see him had the conditions in the stair that a level 20 changed from when you left the stair to
01:34:32 changed from when you left the stair to go into level 20 left Lobby yes and when you came back out how did they changed there it's got worse and much hotter and much less visibility right that changed
01:34:45 much less visibility right that changed quite um quite a lot right and you say that you left the hoses and sit you by the wall says not to block the stairs you think on the 18th floor when you say
01:34:57 you think on the 18th floor when you say by the wall was a walk was at the wall on the staircase itself or on the landing on the landing on the landing looking like they come in a roll so
01:35:08 looking like they come in a roll so they're flat and we pushed him up against the wall so they literally flat against thought okay did you think that that would block the passage of any later France is coming back up the reason why we pushed him up against the
01:35:19 reason why we pushed him up against the wall was to make sure that didn't happen and as you went down the stairs from the 20th floor I think you say the smoke got thicker and and the conditions got hotter it's all right yes
01:35:32 hotter it's all right yes and what about traffic on the stairs did use as you went down did you meet any firefighters coming up no did you meet any residents coming down no now I
01:35:45 any residents coming down no now I thought to ask you something you mentioned yourself before the break about meeting firefighter Murphy on the seventh floor about two o'clock
01:35:56 just try and help me with with the timing of that was that on the same journey down from the 20th floor or was that a little a different occasion same journey same journey yes
01:36:07 occasion same journey same journey yes so could you just talk me through what happens when you get to the seventh floor first of all how do you know you're at the seventh floor when you meet firefighter Murphy
01:36:18 meet firefighter Murphy I saw firefighter Murphy I kind of recognized his silhouette as I got close there was up a firefighters there
01:36:31 there was up a firefighters there he asked me what floor we was on and I got my torch out pointed it to where I
01:36:42 got my torch out pointed it to where I knew the numbers were and pulled him over and showed him and that's when I knew it was the seventh floor was he on
01:36:53 knew it was the seventh floor was he on his way up yes do you know what he was on the way up to do no okay how long did you have spent having a conversation with a second okay was he with anybody else
01:37:04 second okay was he with anybody else yes who was that I don't know how many people it was quite a few people on the stairwell at that stage the stairs were
01:37:16 stairwell at that stage the stairs were very tight and a sets against the wall and let the crews go past you it was okay it was tight so at what point on
01:37:28 okay it was tight so at what point on your journey down from the 20th floor did you start to encounter firefighters coming up I believe it was around the seventh floor okay and below the seventh floor could you describe the traffic on
01:37:40 floor could you describe the traffic on the stairs in terms of firefighters there was some firefighters going up
01:37:46 many all yeah quite a few and from the seventh floor downwards what about residents or occupants traffic evacuating the building were there did
01:37:57 evacuating the building were there did you see anybody going gasps I am I can't remember seeing residents but the the conditions were that they could
01:38:11 the the conditions were that they could have been residents they could have been firefighters it was only when I got literally face to face that I realized it was a firefighter and it was my fighter Murphy so yeah you're on your
01:38:27 fighter Murphy so yeah you're on your journey from 20th floor downwards to the bridge head at that time were there any particular floors you remember which were hotter than other floors
01:38:39 were hotter than other floors I am I wasn't counting the floors on the
01:38:50 I am I wasn't counting the floors on the way down so there's no where ever me no were there any patches parts of the building staircase in the building but you went through which you remember
01:39:01 you went through which you remember noting well hotter than other parts I as we started going down I just remember it getting hotter and hotter I mean really hot did the come a point when it stopped being hotter or did it stay hotter and
01:39:13 being hotter or did it stay hotter and hotter all the way down to the bridgehead I had I'm not sure I know when we got down to
01:39:26 I'm not sure I know when we got down to the bridgehead it was a it wasn't as hot because we um we got we we will collapse in the lift lobby area and just like
01:39:40 in the lift lobby area and just like that I'm just gonna turn to a few questions about the bridgehead are you okay to carry on or would you miss like a brick there's not there's not that
01:39:51 a brick there's not there's not that much to go now so let's just see where say what he gave so at the bridgehead you get back and do you reach the bridgehead together with fire fighter
01:40:03 bridgehead together with fire fighter dog dog you and career manager secret yes and can you explain what happened when you reach the bridgehead I I don't really remember anything from
01:40:18 I I don't really remember anything from after seeing firefighter Murphy and the next thing I sort of remember is um sort of coming to on in the lift Lobby line
01:40:31 of coming to on in the lift Lobby line lying down I don't I've got a bit of a blank between there okay you put a bit
01:40:42 blank between there okay you put a bit of a blank is is you say your statement at the bottom of page eight if you can just have a look at it something about heat stress I just want to see if I can get just a bit more
01:40:55 to see if I can get just a bit more detail about that six lines up from the bottom of page eight you say
01:41:03 and I'm not sure whether this is at the bridgehead it isn't I don't think but you you say the temperature was getting hotter and heat stress makes you sweat Lots makes you confused and brings on a headache do you think you had that nice
01:41:16 headache do you think you had that nice definitely yeah did you have it do you think when you go to the bridgehead like I said up from I've got a blank from about the seventh floor and the next thing I knew I was coming around and in
01:41:28 thing I knew I was coming around and in the lift lobby you're just lying down on the floor and do you remember what and maybe you don't but but do you remember what the bridgehead was like at that
01:41:40 what the bridgehead was like at that point in terms of conditions I don't okay and on page nine if you look at it so you describe how you come out of the
01:41:54 so you describe how you come out of the tower
01:42:01 onto a grass verge as seven lines down from the top and then four lines down from that you say I remember looking up at the tower and thinking that we
01:42:14 at the tower and thinking that we weren't going to stop the fire and lots of people were going to be killed by now the fire had reached the top of the tower and there was all sorts of crap falling off it it looked as though the building was falling apart the cladding
01:42:26 building was falling apart the cladding was coming down with other bits of the building and the wind was also catching it at that point when you saw that do
01:42:37 it at that point when you saw that do you think the fire spread had gone beyond the East facade around to one of the other phases I I could only see the
01:42:48 the other phases I I could only see the East facade so I didn't know
01:42:57 and I know it wasn't at the front of the building you say you say I remember looking up and thinking that we weren't
01:43:09 looking up and thinking that we weren't going to be able to weren't going to stop the fire and lots of people were going to be killed did you did you share those thoughts with with anybody I said
01:43:20 those thoughts with with anybody I said there's something the people who were there were saying yeah we that the fire was out of control by that stage and by
01:43:31 was out of control by that stage and by that stage this is the point when you come out of the tower onto the grassy version look up do you know would you remember who was in the in overall command on the ground you don't
01:43:49 and then at the bottom of page 9 you then describe how you start to run casualties and he described that in some detail and where the casualties that you
01:44:01 detail and where the casualties that you were helping well prosecutors asked you first a year okay to give a little bit of evidence about the mothers yes where the casualties that you were helping were they walking casualties no where
01:44:17 were they walking casualties no where were you taking them from where in the building geographically were you taking them for some I was I was going into the lobby and taking him out the lobby some
01:44:28 lobby and taking him out the lobby some as I was coming back they was out of the tower so it was different stages depends how far I got before the next one came out this sounds like a bit of a lawyer's
01:44:44 out this sounds like a bit of a lawyer's question I'm afraid but I'll ask it anyway
01:44:47 anyway did were you making any kind of record of who they were and where they come from no I was um I was working with the paramedics at that time where they just
01:45:00 paramedics at that time where they just asked me who the stand people for help so I jumped in and started to run him back and forward to them right at page
01:45:11 back and forward to them right at page 10 at the bottom of your statement you described how you've helped a firefighter from Chelsea with a turntable ladder do you remember doing
01:45:23 turntable ladder do you remember doing that yes could you explain where the turntable ladder was at that time yet was something the eastern side of the
01:45:34 was something the eastern side of the building right was that was that the first turntable ladder to arrive I I'm not sure you mean I was in the building at that stage do you know where the
01:45:45 at that stage do you know where the turntable ladder had come from now you say the firefighter had an issue you say he had a turntable ladder and there was a lack of water pressure so not enough
01:45:56 a lack of water pressure so not enough water was coming out
01:46:00 did did you observe that for yourself or is that something that I said it yes what did you see it was I have a monitor on the turntable ladder and it was there
01:46:12 on the turntable ladder and it was there was not enough pressure for it to for the water to be hitting the building you need a lot of water going through to use
01:46:23 need a lot of water going through to use a monitor right and you say not enough for the water to be hitting the building say it wasn't what was happening when you opened the throttle on the monitor it was just not reaching the building
01:46:37 it was just not reaching the building have far away at work how far could you shoot water it wasn't me shooting the water it the monitor is I'd say it was maybe 20 30
01:46:58 monitor is I'd say it was maybe 20 30 meters away from the building and how far could you could at that time could you get the water from the monitor not very far fees Jews don't to suggest a
01:47:10 very far fees Jews don't to suggest a distance to you it was what do you remember it was literally coming out and just flopping down yeah that's what you're doing with your hand okay all right and what's the problem all
01:47:22 right and what's the problem all pressure solved by doing what you say in your statement which is tying the hose reel onto the platform did that help it got water onto the tower but it did
01:47:36 got water onto the tower but it did doesn't have the effect it's a hose reel which doesn't put much water on on it compared to a monitor how how big is the hose on the hose reel what's the
01:47:48 hose on the hose reel what's the diameter not very big like 30 mil right say smaller than the draught you would plug into a drum I think it's like too many free Miller okay and this this
01:47:59 many free Miller okay and this this creation that deciding to tie the hose reel to the platform is that a standard a standard approach you take on the on a fire ground or is it something you and
01:48:10 fire ground or is it something you and he
01:48:11 he together on the night I'm the second one right and you say it got some water onto
01:48:22 right and you say it got some water onto the fire
01:48:23 the fire you delivered alleged that it down you say the water was then turned on and the turntable out ascent up they seemed to sort out the problem and get some water onto the fire how high up could whenever
01:48:35 onto the fire how high up could whenever when I say um in this statement it says sort it out it didn't sort out the problem it just got some water on the fire okay
01:48:46 fire okay nowhere near as much as if as if we had had pressure to use a monitor and how high up the building could you get some
01:48:57 high up the building could you get some water with the use of the turntable ladder contraption that you put together I I don't remember how I am helped him
01:49:08 I I don't remember how I am helped him tie it on and another ran off to do something else do you do you remember which hydrant the monitor had been
01:49:19 which hydrant the monitor had been plugged into that was that was not providing sufficient pressure no you described at the bottom of page 10 once
01:49:31 described at the bottom of page 10 once you've done that job you say I saw another firefighter who looked a bit troubled I asked him what was wrong and he said that he had an area appliance which was stuck out on the road as he couldn't get it close enough to the
01:49:42 couldn't get it close enough to the tower can you remember which road he was stuck on
01:49:51 it was stuck I believe it was around bison turns Road maybe Bramley
01:50:03 bison turns Road maybe Bramley but next to lack of a road tube station okay and where was he in relation to the
01:50:15 okay and where was he in relation to the tower when you saw him and had that conversation with him um I believe he was on grenfell Road right and what was he doing looking for somewhere to
01:50:28 he doing looking for somewhere to somehow try and get his um aerial closer to the tower right so I think what happens next is that you went to Bromley Road with him did you
01:50:40 Road with him did you yes and then you turned into Sill just a road yes okay and then I think you go onto say you couldn't get past the bollards you go to the top of page 11 you say you say this the second line the
01:50:52 you say you say this the second line the the building of this new school that caused access issues and our access was restricted due to bollards and lots of people
01:50:59 people I left the engine with the driver on the grass verge by the school which wasn't a good enough placement for what the engine was needed for I'm unsure if it ever managed to get any closer just want
01:51:14 ever managed to get any closer just want to ask you about the building of this new school causing access issues that you've been at North Kent in a long time yes do you remember when do you remember if the access to the tower was better
01:51:25 if the access to the tower was better yes before the school was built yes how was that before as a firefighter I used to work in sports in turn next to the tower and they used to have football
01:51:36 tower and they used to have football pitches right next to the tower
01:51:41 all the access was clear there was um
01:51:52 there was how can I put it a lot of discussion about the building of the school from what I know well you know
01:52:04 school from what I know well you know were you ever yourself party to a discussion about the building of the school from a fire safety point of view no and then you you go on to say and our
01:52:16 no and then you you go on to say and our access was restricted due to bollards the bollards these were different Bowl ads from the one that Charlie batter be removed where were these bollards they
01:52:31 removed where were these bollards they were as you get to the corner of Steel Chester and Lancaster Road you do it right and it's between the school and
01:52:43 right and it's between the school and swim and with these bollards adjustable removable or they've not you couldn't
01:52:54 removable or they've not you couldn't move them they was fixed okay
01:53:18 if you could just look at page 12
01:53:25 the button you offer some views about how things might have been better but I just want to ask you about one you say at the very end of the main paragraph on page 12 I
01:53:40 end of the main paragraph on page 12 I also feel that radio communications failed and should have been working with within that building could you summarize
01:53:53 within that building could you summarize your personal experience of the effectiveness of radio communications throughout that night they didn't work
01:54:05 throughout that night they didn't work it's just completely failed and one of the firefighters [Music]
01:54:19 what firefighters rely on this communication to make their to do the job properly did you take up with a
01:54:31 job properly did you take up with a senior commanding officer your problem with the communications and asked him to to see if he could sort it out after that edit at any point in the
01:54:43 after that edit at any point in the night
01:54:52 my my personal well the problems I had with radio communications was when I was in that building
01:55:03 afterwards I didn't I wasn't using the radios as much so after I came out of
01:55:16 radios as much so after I came out of building no I didn't do you know from your own knowledge on the night whether anybody in attendance tried to improve or sort out the communications difficulties that you yourself
01:55:27 difficulties that you yourself experienced not that I know of now mr. Padilla I've got literally two or three questions left are you okay yes we do
01:55:38 questions left are you okay yes we do ask them and page 10 if I can just go back
01:55:49 this is where you're telling us about your experience of running casualties and helping out with casualties you you say a third of the way down I saw a man
01:56:01 say a third of the way down I saw a man in the road
01:56:09 you could have seen her I saw a man in the raid but wasn't sure where he had come from and he had obviously been moved but I thought he might have been unconscious then you go on to say he'd
01:56:25 unconscious then you go on to say he'd been on his back the paramedic I was with and I went over to him I started to put him on the trolley when the doctor came over to him and said leave him as he was a jumper we put him on the trolley anyhow and he was moved I
01:56:36 trolley anyhow and he was moved I covered his face with a sheet so that he could have some dignity then the doctor called his time of death all the men's brains were shattered and he had sword
01:56:47 brains were shattered and he had sword himself he was an Arabic looking and of average build and I had two questions for you the three questions first of all
01:57:00 for you the three questions first of all can you assist further with the time that you saw this I wish I could yeah I don't really have a timeline for any of
01:57:13 don't really have a timeline for any of that Nigel's doing so much stuff when you say he had obviously already been moved why do you say that
01:57:26 I think that was more knowing that when paramedics or the doctor told me that he had jumped on the tower telling that
01:57:40 had jumped on the tower telling that that he hadn't I don't want to offend anyone by but I took it that he hadn't
01:57:51 anyone by but I took it that he hadn't learned it there understand and finally that you you say that he was in the road I saw a man in the road can
01:58:02 in the road I saw a man in the road can you help further with identifying the location which which red you told me about it was um on the Grenfell road it
01:58:13 about it was um on the Grenfell road it was underneath the walkway so quite close to the tower sort of workout four to seven one was parked if you start
01:58:25 to seven one was parked if you start walking up towards gram flour Road and as you start going around the corner it was around on that corner thank you very much mr. video I want to say thank you
01:58:36 much mr. video I want to say thank you very much for coming and giving your evidence I have no further questions for you but there may be one or two others which I get asked to ask you mr. chairman might I take a very short break
01:58:48 chairman might I take a very short break and that ask you to ask the witness not to leave us what I harvest yes and I'm
01:58:59 to leave us what I harvest yes and I'm sorry too you can't finish just for a moment because it may be there are one or two questions which others are interested in having missed a minute asked you so we'll take a short break
01:59:11 asked you so we'll take a short break but I mean short fire it short and give you time to catch your breath and then we'll come back and I'll we'll see where we are then that's right okay you go in
01:59:23 we are then that's right okay you go in the afternoon 5:00 past
01:59:35 you
02:06:22 yes absolutely candid things are slightly unresolved about a particular question from a particular core participant and rather than keeping the
02:06:35 participant and rather than keeping the witness I'm gay what I'd like to do is release the witness if I may but continue my discussions with a particular core participant to see if it can if the information can be obtained
02:06:46 can if the information can be obtained in a different way well my own dr. day witness is willing to answer further questions although I don't think he expects to be asked more than one or two literally one or two so if you want to
02:06:57 literally one or two so if you want to ask him well have him back and ask him I'd like him to come back in any event or or a mr. chairman our big I'll be guided by you I I think I've already
02:07:09 guided by you I I think I've already need in fairness to hear from mr. Walsh as to whether this is a wise thing given with witnesses condition mr. Hawkes do you want to say something cuz you've been in on the edge of your seat all
02:07:20 been in on the edge of your seat all afternoon
02:07:24 what yeah of course
02:07:31 as we made very clear in inheriting the state
02:07:39 [Music]
02:08:23 well I'm inviting you to make a speech just inviting you to tell me what you're inviting me to do now
02:08:42 that was a question whether he would rotate the greatly said that he would on the basis of talking about
02:09:18 well he's been a very succinctly miss he's answered an awful lot of questions in one word and that's been all to the good so are you suggesting we shouldn't ask him this further question I'm just
02:09:35 ask him this further question I'm just trying to avoid yet further trauma so if it can be resolved in Wayne mr. Miller suggests all well and good if it cannot then sir of course I'm in your hands but
02:09:46 then sir of course I'm in your hands but it will be a very very short answer yes well that may be but at least we'll have had his answer to the question and he if he's willing to willing in the sense of
02:09:57 he's willing to willing in the sense of feeling that he can cope with answering another question then I think he would be right to ask him and we'll see what he says thank you very much yes good
02:10:08 he says thank you very much yes good could you invite mr. video to come back images
02:10:46 Thank You mr. Padilla I'm sorry to have you in and out of the hearing in this manner but I understand there is one further question which mr. millet has been asked to put to you if it's more
02:10:58 been asked to put to you if it's more than one he'll have to explain to me why so I think it is anyone yes mr. chairman it is one I'm going to try and make it one but there is some context to it
02:11:10 one but there is some context to it which I just need to show you based on your statement could you please be showing page seven of your statement
02:11:22 and in the middle of the page this is where you've arrived on the 20th floor you say flat 16 has been to the right of
02:11:34 you say flat 16 has been to the right of the lobby door I was going to show you the passage first so I guess that flat 176 would be to the right - I found what
02:11:47 176 would be to the right - I found what I thought was flat 176 but had to use my torch and put my face right up close to the door I moved on to the next door and saw that it was 175 so returned to 176
02:11:59 saw that it was 175 so returned to 176 satisfied that as the correct flat and my question is did you knock on the door or shout to anybody who might be inside
02:12:12 or shout to anybody who might be inside flat 175
02:12:19 that's Christian is it is mr. video that is the question and you've given us your arm so we're very grateful can I just say he's of course to the family of the
02:12:34 say he's of course to the family of the people in 1 7 5 400 a son looking for another girl I didn't know there was anyone in there thank you 500 video
02:12:49 anyone in there thank you 500 video thank you very much for coming back to tell us that and to share that with the family and I'm very grateful to you for doing that Thank You mr. video before
02:13:02 doing that Thank You mr. video before you leave the witness box can I just thank you very much on behalf of myself and the other everyone involved in the inquiry for coming to give your evidence I can tell that it's taken a great deal
02:13:13 I can tell that it's taken a great deal of courage and determination on your part and also a strong sense of public duty and we really are very grateful I'd like you to know that the evidence you've given about the conditions in the
02:13:25 you've given about the conditions in the tower at various points in the building or at various times is going to be very useful thank you very much indeed alright so would you like to go now with the Usher
02:13:50 mr. chairman that concludes the business obey yes a long and sometimes difficult week I'm grateful to you mr. chairman for for all of that we start again I
02:14:04 for for all of that we start again I think at 9:30 on Monday morning with the next witness at 9:30 again oh I'm sorry oral amendment no 10 o'clock turn around yes thank you all very much ten o'clock
02:14:17 yes thank you all very much ten o'clock on Monday then please thank you